EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,169 words- 0:00 – 0:15
Cold open and the thrill of conspiracies as modern storytelling
- NANarrator
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) Welcome.
- ICIan Carroll
Dude.
- JRJoe Rogan
Very nice to meet you.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah, good to be here, man.
- 0:15 – 1:22
How narratives get manufactured: Watergate, Woodward, and “framing” Nixon
- JRJoe Rogan
So, uh, let's take... First of all, why do we love conspiracy so much? 'Cause I fucking love them.
- ICIan Carroll
Dude.
- JRJoe Rogan
I love them. I love finding out the dirty little tactics-
- ICIan Carroll
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and secrets and how the government does things and what the fuck's really going on.
- ICIan Carroll
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Why is it so exciting?
- ICIan Carroll
I think it's something, like, deep down in humanity, is, like, we love storytelling.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
And, and these days, conspiracy theories are, like... We, we... I mean, 10 years ago, conspiracy theories were fringe and they were problematic.
- JRJoe Rogan
Tell me about it.
- ICIan Carroll
Right? Like, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I was a conspiracy theorist way back in the day-
- ICIan Carroll
You're the hard head.
- JRJoe Rogan
... when you were a fucking nut.
- ICIan Carroll
Dude, you were-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ICIan Carroll
... a conspiracy theorist when I was not even here yet.
- JRJoe Rogan
I was arguing with people about the moon landing-
- ICIan Carroll
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
... on the radio before the fucking, before there was any podcasts.
- ICIan Carroll
I mean, I, maybe there's some of the mystery element, ma- but the thing is that so many of them are, it- it's, it's a knowledge, it's a thirst for knowledge because some of them are total bullshit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ICIan Carroll
But some of them are, clearly there's something there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Clearly.
- ICIan Carroll
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
And realistically, if you had, like, the journalists of integrity from 1960s era alive today and they hadn't been bought out and shot in the head and whatever else happened-
- JRJoe Rogan
Dude, I think even in the '60s-
- ICIan Carroll
... they would be conspiracy theorists.
- 1:22 – 4:12
VPs, power management, and why Trump conspiracies never go away
- JRJoe Rogan
The big one, the big one, um, is Woodward with the Watergate story.
- ICIan Carroll
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you see Bill Murray when I had Bill Murray in here the other day?
- ICIan Carroll
I haven't watched it yet, no.
- JRJoe Rogan
Bob Woodward wrote Wired, which is about-
- ICIan Carroll
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
John Belushi. Bill Murray read five pages of it and he said, "Holy shit, they framed Nixon." He said the Bob Woodward story about Belushi was so-
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... full of shit, it was so exaggerated and fake and just filled with nonsense. He's like, "John Belushi was a lightweight." He goes, "John Belushi would drink three beers and he'd be drunk." He goes, he is the... Probably the first speed ball he ever took and he died from it. Like this whole thing about him-
- ICIan Carroll
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... being this raving, drug-fueled maniac was totally fabricated.
- ICIan Carroll
I just... It, like, it's a good example of how the mainstream narrative had Nixon as a, as a crook-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
... a- a- and he's just one of many examples, right? And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ICIan Carroll
... when you really start to look into it, you realize, I mean, probably not the greatest guy, but what was the real story there? What were they-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ICIan Carroll
... framing? Who are, why were they trying to get him out?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. No, this is not a defense of Nixon.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah, exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nixon was not a great guy. But Tucker thinks that Nixon knew about, too much about the JFK assassination and wouldn't talk about it.
- ICIan Carroll
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he started saying, "I know who killed JFK."
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he started, he started yapping-
- ICIan Carroll
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and they were like, "Let's get this motherfucker out of here."
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And also one of the, uh, terms that he had agreed to to run for president was G- Gerald Ford, who was on the fucking Warren Commission.
- ICIan Carroll
Bingo.
- 4:12 – 5:12
Bizarre “synchronicities”: Baron Trump books, von Braun’s “Elon,” and UAP time-travel talk
- JRJoe Rogan
And, and then it's connected to real life events in some sort of a way that you would think there's a conspiracy. Like here's the, one of my favorites is Little Baron Trumps-
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah, dude, I just got the book.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the fucking book.
- ICIan Carroll
It just came in the mail.
- JRJoe Rogan
Insane.
- ICIan Carroll
Have you read it?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- ICIan Carroll
Dude, I'm gonna read it.
- JRJoe Rogan
I-
- ICIan Carroll
I just got it.
- JRJoe Rogan
I should buy it.
- ICIan Carroll
That's dope.
- JRJoe Rogan
I should buy the book before it gets bought out.
- ICIan Carroll
It's, it, I got it in a three-part series that has the, the Baron Trump one and then the last president and there's one other one.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then how about the Wernher von Braun one about a guy named Elon that takes us to Mars? He wr- Wernher von Braun-
- ICIan Carroll
I haven't read that one yet.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the fucking Nazi who ran, you know-
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... Operation Paperclip and became the head of NASA.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That-
- ICIan Carroll
Super occultist kind of stuff in there, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Written, writes a novel about a guy named Elon that takes us to Mars, and even Elon saw that and he's like-
- ICIan Carroll
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... "Is this real?" Like, like you would think there's no way.
- ICIan Carroll
I mean, simultaneous to us kinda getting, like, some version of UAP disclosure that implies time travel-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
... which is like Lord knows what that is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ICIan Carroll
But it's just so fun to speculate-
- 5:12 – 6:36
UAP ‘cauldron of bullshit’: why Jacques Vallée stands out
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. How would we know? And the, the whole UAP thing, boy, you wanna find a cauldron of bullshit-
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that's the cauldron.
- ICIan Carroll
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you know who's got the best take on it? Is Jacques Vallée. I'm in the middle of-
- ICIan Carroll
I've not seen a lot of his stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
... my third book of his right now and it's, uh, I'll tell you what it's called. He's got-
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah, I should read some.
- JRJoe Rogan
I- he's the best. I mean-
- ICIan Carroll
Why, why do you say he's the best? Like what's your qualifier then?
- JRJoe Rogan
He, because he's, uh, this, I'm on, uh, this one, Confrontations-
- ICIan Carroll
Word.
- JRJoe Rogan
... which is one of a three-part series of, uh, human interactions that have been documented with some sort of, uh, an in- an invader from some other dimension or planet or whatever the fuck it is. He...... is the most rational. He's the most analytical. He's the least likely to buy into horse shit, but not dismissive-
- ICIan Carroll
That's like the critical balance, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
... of strange since... Yes. Well, he's the guy that they modeled the French scientist in Close Encounters of the Third Kind after.
- ICIan Carroll
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, he's been in this game since the '60s-
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... investigating these things.
- ICIan Carroll
And time in the game counts for a ton. It counts for so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
... m- and that's my greatest weakness in a lot of ways, among several, is that I'm just really new to the game. And so, I'm constantly, like, catching up on shit, and as stuff breaks-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ICIan Carroll
... like, like Pam Bondi, for example, I have no history on who Pam Bondi is, because I wasn't paying attention when Pam Bondi was in Florida. And so, I'm having to, like, play catch-up on what was going on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 6:36 – 7:42
Grift incentives and ‘controlled opposition’: David Icke, Alex Jones, and credibility tests
- ICIan Carroll
And the people that have been here for forever, like the Alex Joneses of this world, the Jacques Vallées, the people that, like, watch things break live, you just get a different level of context. And then you get, like, the David Ikes that are like, "It's fucking reptiles, dude."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ICIan Carroll
"They're all reptiles." David, have you seen David Ike coming after me on Twitter recently?
- JRJoe Rogan
He came after you, me too-
- ICIan Carroll
Dude, it's so good. I love him.
- JRJoe Rogan
... 'cause I, I make fun of the reptile thing. And he's like, "Why won't you have me on?"
- ICIan Carroll
I genuinely really appreciate it.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Why won't..."
- ICIan Carroll
It's, like, a good time.
- JRJoe Rogan
But he's d-
- ICIan Carroll
And it's, like, maybe there are reptiles.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think-
- ICIan Carroll
I don't know, man.
- JRJoe Rogan
... he went too far in time where there was no internet.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, he went too far.
- ICIan Carroll
It's, you get too certain of yourself, right? You think you have the answers-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a l-
- ICIan Carroll
... and you just keep going.
- JRJoe Rogan
... a little bit of a grift-
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... with some of these folks.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm not saying necessarily him, but it's a little bit of a grift.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah. Well, it's, it's an easy temptation to fall into, especially-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
... with the internet. Like, every single day, people in my position, I mean, people in your position too, like, we have the ability to just, like, "I'm gonna get views and money if I drop deep down this grift."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ICIan Carroll
But a lot of them are not, like, a lot of them, when you look into them, you realize, "Oh, there's, like, literally nothing there."
- JRJoe Rogan
R- there's a bunch of stuff that's clickbait horse shit, for sure.
- 7:42 – 9:27
Sponsor break: ExpressVPN and post-quantum encryption
- JRJoe Rogan
... yeah. I've been trying to wrap my mind around the idea of quantum computing. It's exciting, but complex and difficult to understand. What I do know is that quantum computers can process exponentially more data than the ones you and I use every day. Quantum computers also put a new strain on the world of digital privacy and cybersecurity. They may one day crack encryption algorithms that we currently consider secure. That's why ExpressVPN upgraded their encryption to use MLKEM, the strongest available protection from post-quantum threats. With ExpressVPN, all your online activity is rerouted through secure, encrypted servers. Even though all your data is still being handled by your internet provider or whoever the provider is for the random public WiFi network you're on, none of these third parties will be able to read your data or hijack your connection for malicious intent. And with post-quantum protection, ExpressVPN is essentially future-proofing your privacy, just one of many reasons why ExpressVPN is the absolute best VPN out there. So, if you want to get the highest standards of post-quantum protection from your VPN service, tap the banner or go to expressvpn.com/rogan. And now listeners can get four extra months for free. That's expressvpn.com/rogan. And if you're watching on YouTube, you can get your four free months by scanning the QR code on screen or by clicking the link in the description. Yeah.
- 9:27 – 11:00
Epstein Island myths, what’s provable, and the ‘buy the island’ thought experiment
- ICIan Carroll
The one that I just recently kind of was reminded of is, you know the, the story that they, that, uh, Disney sent kids to Epstein Island?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I did hear that.
- ICIan Carroll
That's, like, a perfect, like, "Oh, it's not."
- JRJoe Rogan
But it's not.
- ICIan Carroll
Such a money conspiracy theory.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
It's not true.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's not true.
- ICIan Carroll
It's when you look it up, you realize that, that, I mean, a lot of the information is kinda gone. It's hard to even tell if it's legitimate websites and information, which is already a red flag. But the ones that are still up, they just sent them into, like, the ocea- like, they were going on cruises that happened to be in the vicinity of the island.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ICIan Carroll
That's totally different than sending kids to the island.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is a very popular vacation destination.
- ICIan Carroll
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
And so, it's, uh, it becomes this, like... And, and that's kind of the, I think that's the fun part of the game.
- JRJoe Rogan
We, we thought about buying the island.
- ICIan Carroll
Dude.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) When the island was for sale, we talked about it for a second. We were like, "Let's put some of that Spotify money-"
- ICIan Carroll
Why not?
- JRJoe Rogan
"... money to use. That would be funny."
- ICIan Carroll
I think they would've stopped you.
- JRJoe Rogan
But it's just too evil. Oh, yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
Dude, I think someone would have stopped you.
- JRJoe Rogan
100%.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Me?
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I can't shut the fuck up.
- ICIan Carroll
'Cause there's shit underneath that island-
- JRJoe Rogan
No doubt.
- 11:00 – 19:21
JFK assassination deep dive: autopsies, missing evidence, Zapruder frames, and witness deaths
- ICIan Carroll
But they did an autopsy on JFK too, and it was not his body.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well-
- ICIan Carroll
Probably.
- JRJoe Rogan
... sort of. They did two autopsies.
- ICIan Carroll
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
They, they, well, they did, uh, th- the initial examination of the body-
- ICIan Carroll
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... was in Dallas, and then they flew it to Bethesda.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The thing about that is, and this is, uh, part of David Lifton's book, Best Evidence, which b- made, made me become a conspiracy theorist.
- ICIan Carroll
Mm-hmm. I've never read it.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's fucking great. And, uh, David Lifton, who was an accountant, they gave him, uh, I forget what the project was, but it was something to do with the Warren Commission report. So, this guy's, like, a serious bookworm. He read the entire Warren Commission-
- ICIan Carroll
He did.
- JRJoe Rogan
... which fucking nobody does.
- ICIan Carroll
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's, like, m- 9,000 pages or something like that.
- ICIan Carroll
That's a superpower-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
... being able to read like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Exactly, and find contradictions over and over-
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and over again. He's like, "This is horse shit. This whole thing's horse shit."
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then he found out that Kennedy's brain was missing when it got all the way to-
- ICIan Carroll
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
... Bethesda. He found out that the Dallas doctors said that the neck wound was an entry wound, and then the ones in Bethesda-
- ICIan Carroll
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... turned it in a tracheotomy hole. It was a bullet hole. He got shot.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You could see him go like that.
- 19:21 – 33:02
MKUltra, Manson, Jolly West, and the mechanics of mind control
- ICIan Carroll
Jolly West is crazy. Have you read Chaos yet?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ICIan Carroll
Dude.
- JRJoe Rogan
So I had Tom O'Neil on the podcast.
- ICIan Carroll
I didn't know about Jolly until I read Chaos.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
And then I started digging in... 'cause I knew about MKUltra. I'm like, I've been learning about MKUltra when I was a kid, like doing psychedelics. But I didn't really understand anything about that history or anything around the CIA back then.
- JRJoe Rogan
They ran the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic.
- ICIan Carroll
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they closed it down after Chaos came out.
- ICIan Carroll
No way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes way.
- ICIan Carroll
So just recently, huh?
- JRJoe Rogan
The entire time they had been running-
- ICIan Carroll
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
... this clinic. It's not like they were running the clinic and they said, "You know what, let's not run the clinic anymore."
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Let's just give it to regular doctors."
- ICIan Carroll
'70s are over, like whatever.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's over. The peace and war bullshit or peace and love bullshit, that's over.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah, one of the conspiracy theories- ... that comes out this week.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. It's coming out this week. Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
Really? This week?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Tom O'Neil-
- ICIan Carroll
Finally.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is my friend Greg's, uh, longtime friend and former neigh- b- well, I think they're still neighbors, but they were neighbors in New York and then they were neighbors in, in California.
- ICIan Carroll
That's a pretty cool neighbor.
- JRJoe Rogan
This guy been... Yeah, very cool neighbor. But this guy's been working on this one fucking story-
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... for 20 years. You imagine just like-
- 33:02 – 53:52
Surveillance-era politics: leaks, burner-phone culture, Patriot Front, and narrative coordination
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah, but the way I look at it is, so I intentionally do all of my stuff, I basically do open source j- investigations. I don't try to, like, break news stories-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ICIan Carroll
... because it's way safer and it's way more interesting. And I don't, my goal is not to, like, to like, know everything or to be some great journalist. My goal is to inspire everybody el- like to inspire the world to think a little more and to be more critical and to look it up for yourself.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you're also serving a function, uh, the, like, a service for people because what you're doing is you're taking all the time-
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to find all this open source stuff and then putting it out there.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you're really thorough about it. You say, "This is what I know." This is what-
- ICIan Carroll
I try to be.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You've also done-
- ICIan Carroll
I mean, I get shit wrong all the time, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
... you started doing this thing with your hand above your head. People steal that now.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah, they take this act-
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you noticed that?
- ICIan Carroll
Well, it's because TikTok's green screen-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, y- it's your hand, the way you do it though with your hand-
- ICIan Carroll
... the one finger gets taken away. TikTok will delete one finger if I'm pointing with one finger-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why?
- ICIan Carroll
... because it's a green screen app, and so I'm like using the camera and it's got, in- in my camera it's putting the thing behind me-
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh-huh.
- ICIan Carroll
... but it's cutting out me, and if I only use one finger it cuts my whole hand away, so I started doing this, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why is it a-
- ICIan Carroll
Just because the green screen, when it's like trying to AI analyze what is a body and what is the background-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- ICIan Carroll
... it'll take away my hand as though it's the background.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, how weird.
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you started pointing out doing this at the screen yet, but- (laughs)
- 53:52 – 1:05:13
Epstein as an intelligence-style structure: Wexner, Whitney Webb, blackmail logic, and obfuscation layers
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm glad, I'm glad you brought up Epstein 'cause there was a point that I was gonna make earlier that I forgot. The Epstein situation is identical to the Manson situation.
- ICIan Carroll
You think so?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
Explain, explain what you mean.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is why-
- ICIan Carroll
I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
... if, if-
- ICIan Carroll
... I think you don't mean that literally.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, no, no.
- ICIan Carroll
I think you mean that in a more-
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean-
- ICIan Carroll
... metaphorical way, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
... the structure. The structure of how you would pu- ... Like, if you were gonna use an intelligence asset to do something evil, to do something where you can get dirt on people or compromise people or, or accomplish an objective, you would get someone who's already fucked up.
- ICIan Carroll
Oh, 100%.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then you get that fucked-up person and you help them, you know, run this cult, or you help them get girls and you-
- ICIan Carroll
But you intentionally keep them separate.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ICIan Carroll
You don't ... You're, you're not hiring them. They don't work for you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ICIan Carroll
They're a private entity.
- JRJoe Rogan
If he wasn't-
- ICIan Carroll
It's like layers of obfuscation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, if he wasn't personally a pervert, it wouldn't work.
- ICIan Carroll
Oh, not a chance. No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, think about, like, the guy gets arrested for having sex with underage girls, or getting them to do-
- ICIan Carroll
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... happy endings or whatever he, wherever he did. So, he gets arrested and then the real weird thing is that he just get, gets out and gets, like, house arrest.
- ICIan Carroll
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he gets, like, a little slap on the wrist and then he's back in action with all these rich people again.
- ICIan Carroll
Yep.
- 1:05:13 – 1:18:39
The ‘Deep State’ model: intel + organized crime + corporate power, from WWII ports to coups
- ICIan Carroll
Yeah. But like, the f- so the files getting released, I am not expecting them to come out in any complete form because the, the mainstream understanding is that Jeffrey Epstein was the guy. Jeffrey Epstein was just an employee of these organized crime rings that work on behalf of, like, the CIA and Israeli Mossad and British Intelligence and the whole... 'Cause organized crime is the black markets, the dark things, the sex, the drugs, the rock and roll, the child trafficking. And intelligence agencies were designed to be legitimate governments', uh, point of access to organized crime. I mean, theoretically, intelligence agencies were supposed to be, Truman wanted the intelligence agencies to be a newspaper about what's going on in the world, for the president to know, right? But Allen Dulles was not about that. Allen Dulles, founder of the CIA, was like, "I wanna do covert operations." And very, immediately, covert operations were, like, overthrowing the government of Guatemala, Iran, uh, buying the elections in Italy. They bought the elections in Italy by just passing giant bags of cash to the mafia so they would just go buy the election, right, after World War II, because they needed to not let Italy fall to the communists. It's where the Vatican is. So the, the CIA, though Truman okayed it, hoping that it would be a newspaper, the CIA has been covert operations from the start. And covert operations is all about public/private partnerships so that you can't have it traced back to you, right? 'Cause if you get caught doing MKUltra shit, the government's fucked, right?
Episode duration: 2:41:09
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Transcript of episode jJeRWPioGbQ
