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Joe Rogan Experience #2338 - Beth Shapiro

Beth Shapiro, Ph.D., is an evolutionary molecular biologist and Chief Science Officer at Colossal Biosciences. She’s also the author of “Life as We Made It: How 50,000 Years of Human Innovation Refined―and Redefined―Nature.” ⁠https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/beth-shapiro/life-as-we-made-it/9781541644151⁠ ⁠https://colossal.com/team/beth-shapiro-ph-d/⁠ Unlock yourself at https://join.WHOOP.com/jre for one month free 50% off your first box at ⁠https://www.thefarmersdog.com/rogan⁠!

Beth ShapiroguestJoe Roganhost
Jun 16, 20252h 59mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

De-extinction, dire wolves, and DNA: rewriting nature’s rulebook together

  1. Joe Rogan and geneticist Beth Shapiro dive into ancient DNA, de-extinction, and how humans have been reshaping nature for tens of thousands of years. Shapiro explains her path from broadcast journalism to pioneering paleogenomics and her current role at Colossal Biosciences, where she helps engineer ‘dire wolves’ and works on projects like mammoths, dodos, and red wolves. They explore the scientific, ethical, and ecological stakes of reviving lost traits and species, from Neanderthal genomes to mammoth rewilding and genetic rescue for endangered animals. Throughout, they contrast scientific curiosity and innovation with academic gatekeeping, public fear, and the real-world risks of biological manipulation and invasive species.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

De-extinction is really about reviving traits with modern genomes, not resurrecting perfect clones of extinct species.

Shapiro stresses that Colossal uses ancient DNA as a template to edit living relatives (like gray wolves) so they express key dire wolf or mammoth traits, creating functional analogs rather than exact genetic copies.

Ancient DNA has radically revised human evolution narratives, including interbreeding with Neanderthals and Denisovans.

High-quality genomes from tiny bone fragments showed multiple archaic human lineages interbred with Homo sapiens, overturning earlier dogma that these groups never mixed and revealing that modern humans carry 2–5% Neanderthal DNA.

Species boundaries are fuzzier in nature than the rigid labels scientists and the public use.

Examples like polar bear–brown bear hybrids, cattle–bison claims, and dog–wolf gene flow show that organisms frequently cross so‑called species lines, while our naming systems are human conveniences rather than biological absolutes.

Genetic tools being honed for ‘de-extinction’ may be most powerful for conservation and genetic rescue.

Shapiro highlights projects like boosting genetic diversity in red wolves and potentially engineering disease resistance in vulnerable species (e.g., Hawaiian honeycreepers against avian malaria, corals against bleaching).

Invasive species and past biological ‘fixes’ show how badly well‑intentioned interventions can go.

Stories of Florida’s Burmese pythons, Hawaii’s predatory snails, proposed US hippo ranching, and imported wild pigs illustrate how adding new animals often creates cascading, uncontrollable ecological damage.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

“We are as gods… and we’d just better get good at it.”

Beth Shapiro (referencing Stewart Brand on humans’ control over nature)

“Deciding not to use these technologies is also a decision—with its own consequences.”

Beth Shapiro

“Biology doesn’t recognize our species concepts. It doesn’t care what we call things.”

Beth Shapiro

“Most of the things that ever lived will never become fossils.”

Beth Shapiro

“If you saw that bear walking on two legs through the trees, 100 percent you’d think it’s Bigfoot.”

Joe Rogan

Beth Shapiro’s background and the field of ancient DNA (paleogenomics)Colossal’s ‘dire wolves’ and the broader de-extinction toolkitSpecies concepts, hybridization, and what makes a species ‘real’Human evolution insights from Neanderthals, Denisovans, and other archaic humansInvasive species, failed biological interventions, and ecological cautionary talesPotential conservation uses of gene editing (genetic rescue, disease resistance)Ethical debates about ‘playing God’, human enhancement, and academic politics

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