Joe Rogan Experience #2343 - Joe Pistone

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays)

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Nice to meet you.

   3. JPJoe Pistone0:15

      My pleasure.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      You always wear sunglasses. Is that to hide your identity still?

   5. JPJoe Pistone0:19

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      Force of habit?

   7. JPJoe Pistone0:20

      A- actually, it's, it's... (sighs) I have to see, number one. (laughs) But where I, where I reside now, uh, my neighbors d- have no idea that they're living next to Donnie Brasco, so...

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:32

      Well, you have a very distinct voice.

   9. JPJoe Pistone0:34

      Yeah, I know. (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       (laughs) I don't wanna ask where you live. But, you know. What a wild life you've had, sir.

   11. JPJoe Pistone0:42

       Well, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. It, uh, never expected to go like that, but it, uh, it took off.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       So when you, w- you first started working, it was with the FBI, correct?

   13. JPJoe Pistone0:56

       Well, I was with Naval Intelligence, uh, for three years. And then, um, uh, I always wanted to be, uh, in law enforcement. Uh, and I was working in Philadelphia actually, and, uh, you do a lot of work with the FBI because, you know, on the, uh, government installations, government, uh, bases. So I became friendly with some FBI agents and then, uh, I, I figured if I, you know, if w- when I get a- when I finish this, uh, tour with NIS, um, I'm gonna go into law enforcement, so I might as well try it for the best and the best is, you know, the FBI.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       And so how does that lead to you infiltrating the mob?

   15. JPJoe Pistone1:41

       W- well, you know, I didn't, it, I didn't im- infiltrate the mob right from the get-go, you know? It, um... Look, I grew up in, uh, in Paterson, New Jersey. I grew up in an all-Italian neighborhood. Uh, knew wise guys, went to high school with sons of wise guys. And when you're in a neighborhood, you know, you know, you know who the wise guys are. You hang out at the, you're th- they let you hang out at the, the social clubs because, you know, you're a neighborhood kid, they know it. So I knew the streets. Um, so when I went into the FBI, I was, you know, I was street smart basically, Joe. That's what it comes down to, you know? Uh, and, uh, my first assignments were bank robberies, fugitives, gambling cases, and, uh, I started, uh, doing some, uh, little undercover work, uh, on gambling cases 'cause back then, the FBI was big into, into gambling, uh, interstate gambling cases.

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:45

       So what was your first undercover work?

   17. JPJoe Pistone2:47

       First was, uh, infiltrating a, um, a gambling house in, uh, Jacksonville, Florida actually. That was my first office.

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:56

       What kind of gambling were they doing?

   19. JPJoe Pistone2:58

       Uh, craps. Uh, they had a regular casino going. And, uh, you know, I felt comfortable around that stuff because I grew up with that stuff. You know, I grew up, uh, uh, like I say, in the neighborhood, uh, crap games, card games. It wasn't, wasn't anything new to me and being around gangsters was not like, uh, intimidating because I was around (laughs) gangsters growing up. So, uh, I didn't have any problem, you know, getting into these games, um, and identifying the major players, uh, and who was running them and that's basically what it was.

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:38

       So when y- when you do this, did you have to testify in court with these guys?

   21. JPJoe Pistone3:43

       Yeah, later on, after the case goes down. But most of these guys plead guilty, so you never go to trial.

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:49

       Oh.

   23. JPJoe Pistone3:50

       Because, uh, you know, it, it, it, it wasn't where they were facing, you know, 15, 20 years, you know? They might get a, a year or two years and then, you know, uh, get some time knocked off their sentences. So most of it, uh, they plead and so you never have to appear in a court.

   24. JRJoe Rogan4:09

       So but was there an issue with you being discovered and then getting found out and worrying about your safety afterwards?

   25. JPJoe Pistone4:18

       Well, not too much with these cases, no. Not too much with those cases and then I, I worked a lot of, uh, stolen art, buying, you know-

   26. JRJoe Rogan4:26

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JPJoe Pistone4:27

       ... uh, buying stolen art, buying stocks and bonds, swag, stuff like that.

   28. JRJoe Rogan4:32

       So f- how many years did you do stuff like that before you started being undercover in the mob?

   29. JPJoe Pistone4:38

       Uh, let's see. Probably, uh, four, five years. Yeah. Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan4:46

       So you slowly sort of got acclimated with being undercover, you do a bunch of cases, and then how do they approach you?
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   How do you go…

   1. JPJoe Pistone15:00

      wasn't in, uh, in New York anyway, but I had to move into my apartment. Uh, and we had certain bars and restaurants that we knew these fences and wise guys hung out in. And the idea was just go in, get my face seen, and hopefully get into conversation with somebody. Uh-

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:22

      How do you go and get your face seen? You just show up by yourself?

   3. JPJoe Pistone15:25

      Just show up.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:27

      Is that suspicious, though? A guy shows up by himself, not from the neighborhood?

   5. JPJoe Pistone15:30

      No. Well, that's the thing. I, see, because I couldn't say, "Hey, I'm from Brooklyn."

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:34

      Right.

   7. JPJoe Pistone15:35

      "I'm from Manhattan," "I'm from the Bronx," because these guys have the contacts everywhere.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:39

      Right.

   9. JPJoe Pistone15:40

      So i- it was up to me if I got into conversation with anybody, my story was ... And then again, you have to, you have to, you have to know your enemy, okay? The enemy was the mafia. So you have to know a l- about the mafia. You have to know if you do get into conversation with these guys and they're, they're trying to check you out, what's your backstory, where are you from. My background was I was an orphan, okay? And I moved between Florida and California. Why an orphan? Because then I wouldn't have to produce a mother and a father, 'cause again, if I was lucky enough to get in, they'd say, "Well, where are your parents at?"

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:33

       Right.

   11. JPJoe Pistone16:34

       Uh, I couldn't have any siblings that I knew of.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:36

       Right.

   13. JPJoe Pistone16:37

       I couldn't have been married, so I couldn't have an ex-wife or anything, because I would have had to produce somebody.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:44

       Right.

   15. JPJoe Pistone16:45

       So my backstory was I was an orphan. To back it up, we found an orphanage that had burnt down and all the records were destroyed, so they couldn't-

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:00

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JPJoe Pistone17:00

       They couldn't check that. I mean, these are all things that, that if you're gonna send somebody into an undercover operation that is, uh, deep cover ... And remember, I had no informant bringing me in. This was a ... It had to be a cold entry. So I hung around, uh, maybe five, six months. That's all I did. And that's another thing too. It's a seven-day-a-week job, 'cause if they see you Monday to Friday and then they don't see you Saturday and Sunday, where the hell are you Saturday and Sunday?

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:34

       Right.

   19. JPJoe Pistone17:35

       So it's seven days a week. It was seven-days a week.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:38

       Did you have a family at the time?

   21. JPJoe Pistone17:40

       I did, yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:41

       Wow.

   23. JPJoe Pistone17:41

       But they, they lived, they lived across country at the time.

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:44

       That had to be crazy difficult for them.

   25. JPJoe Pistone17:47

       Very difficult. It was. It was, yeah. Uh, so, um-

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:53

       So you just kinda just hang around restaurants, bars?

   27. JPJoe Pistone17:56

       Just ... Yeah. And my only conversation with anybody was, is, uh (laughs) what I'll have to drink and what I'll have to eat. That's ... And I'm not a drinker. I never was a drinker. So, um ... And, you know, for young undercovers, you don't have to be a drinker and you don't have to do shit that, you know, that you think gangsters do. Uh-My, my extent of drinking was - and it still is - is a half a bottle of beer and maybe a glass of red wine. That's it. And I never, I never, um, went outside those boundaries because that's, that, that's me. I didn't do it.

   28. NANarrator18:35

       Right.

   29. JPJoe Pistone18:37

       So I used to go to this one place and, uh, actually this place wasn't too far from my, um, uh, my apartment up in, uh, uh, Yorkville. And, uh, wise guys would come in there. I don't remember if it was Wednesdays or Thursdays, I, I don't remember, with their girlfriends for dinner. And, uh, I always would sit at the bar, you know? Never talked to the bartender other than, "What do you want? What do you want to eat? What do you want to drink?" Uh, so one night I go in there and, and, uh, the wise guys are there. Uh, one of the girlfriends... But there's one guy missing, but the, the girl that he was always with was there. So I'm at the bar and, uh, I guess she gets up, she goes to the ladies room, she comes by and she says, "Hello." And I just said, "Hello." Now again, knowing your enemy, know how they operate. So the first thing I do is I call the bartender over, right? Now, I know his name, but I don't call him by his name because I was never introduced to him. So I just said, "Sir, would you," you know? I said, "I wanna go on record." That's a mob term. "I wanna go on record. I didn't ask that young lady to stop and say hello." And he just nods and that's it. Well, fast-forward, this happens, like, three or four different times. And, um, they're in there, she's in there, he's not there. About the fourth time, the same thing, you know? She would come over and-

   30. NANarrator20:24

       (laughs)
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Oh, Jesus. …

   1. JPJoe Pistone30:00

      world, I can't go shake their hand because it's, "Why isn't Donnie pissed off?" All right? My only recourse here is, is some kind of physical recourse. But I can't do, I can't do anything to Patsy because he's the made guy. I can't touch him, and that's, that's one of the rules of the mafia. You don't lay your hands on a made guy. It'll get you killed. It'll get you killed.So the only guy who can hit us is Frankie. He's not a made guy. So we get up and start to walk out, and I cold-cock Frankie.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:49

      Oh, Jesus.

   3. JPJoe Pistone30:51

      But that's the only thing that, that's gonna save me because otherwise it's, "Why isn't Donnie pissed off?"

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:57

      Right.

   5. JPJoe Pistone30:58

      So now (clears throat) I'm gonna-

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:59

      Was Frankie questioning you too?

   7. JPJoe Pistone31:01

      Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But he's not a made guy.

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:04

      Right.

   9. JPJoe Pistone31:04

      So he's fair game.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:06

       Boy.

   11. JPJoe Pistone31:07

       So I hit him, he goes down. Now, Patsy's jumping on me and he's, he's punching the hell out, but I can't... (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:15

       You can't hit him back.

   13. JPJoe Pistone31:15

       I can't hit him back. I can just protect myself. But I figure, "Well, you hit me once. I hit Frankie twice." So it went on. So then finally they broke it up, but now I know I can't stay around here. I can't stay with these guys because it... You know, you can't get into a altercation with made guys and-

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:41

       Yeah.

   15. JPJoe Pistone31:41

       ... and have it come out. So afterward-

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:45

       (laughs)

   17. JPJoe Pistone31:45

       Afterward, everything settled down, I'd say to Gilly, "Gilly, let's take a walk and talk." So we do and we get outside. I said, "Gilly, look, no disrespect to you," you know. I said, "But I can't, I can't come around here anymore." I said, "Because you know how it's gonna end." He says, "Yeah, Donnie, I realize that." He said, uh, "But, you know, no real feelings between you and me." I said, "Okay." So (clears throat) at the, at the card game, I, I was introduced to a Bonanno guy by the name of Tony Mirra. I had never done anything with him, but I was introduced to him. So I go back, uh, I go back with Charlie, you know, to the card games and, uh, I start siding up to, to this Mirra who was a complete psycho case, a complete fucking psycho case, which I find out later on. He's a big, broly guy. And, uh, um... He says, uh, you know, "Why don't you come downtown?" I said, "Yeah, okay." So he was from Little Italy, and, uh, that's where, uh, he hung out. He had a, uh, bus stop luncheonette down in Little Italy. But he was psycho. So I started hanging out with him at my first Bonanno guy that, that brings me around. (clears throat) Uh, so we're out one night and, uh, he was shaking down nightclubs and, uh, I, I was helping him. When I say helping, I was with him, you know, shake down owners and... Uh, at, at nightclubs and stuff. So, uh, it's about 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning one morning and, uh, we go to a diner for breakfast, and, uh, the eggs come out cold so he starts berating the waitress. And there's oth- You know, we were with, we were with other wise guys and stuff. So I said, "Tony," I said, "You know." I said, "She's only doing her job." I said, "Why are you, why are you taking it out on her? You know, she's here 4:00 in the morning waitressing." So he tore the shit out of me. He tore into me in front of every- everybody, but I really can't go back at him. But I have to let him know that, you know, uh, I'm not, I'm not a pushover and he... You know? So the next day... Now, this guy, I f- Uh, as I, as I had gotten to know him, I, I had seen him in action and... (laughs) So the next day I, I told him, I said, "Tony." And, and nobody else is around so it's, it's my word on his. I said, "Don't ever talk to me like that again in front of people." I said, "'Cause I'll fucking stab you." I said, "And you won't even know it's coming." I said, "Don't ever embarrass me like that and call me those names in front of other people." And he was like, "Ooh." So, uh, but he introduced me to... Kept introducing me to, uh, other Bonannos, and then he introduced me-

   18. JRJoe Rogan35:13

       So even after that?

   19. JPJoe Pistone35:15

       Uh, yeah, after that, yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan35:16

       So after that, did you get his respect by saying-

   21. JPJoe Pistone35:18

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan35:18

       ... he'd stab him?

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   24. JPJoe Pistone36:48

       Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, 'cause he knew that, you know, he knew that I (laughs) I wasn't bullshitting him. I mean, you know, he just beat me down in front of other people. I mean, m- not-

   25. JRJoe Rogan36:59

       Physically, right?

   26. JPJoe Pistone37:00

       ... you know, not physically, but, you know-

   27. JRJoe Rogan37:01

       Yeah.

   28. JPJoe Pistone37:01

       ... just calling me, you know. And, uh, 'cause I was standing up for this waitress, but that was, that was him. So he introduces me to a guy by the name of, uh, Lefty Ruggiero, another made guy in the Bonannos from, uh, Downtown, Knickerbocker Village. They all lived in Knickerbocker Village. And, um, he introduces me to Lefty. So now Mira had just gotten out of the can. Now they send him back, right? So he goes back to the can. Uh, he's a big, he was a, a big moneymaker for the Bonannos in dope. He was a big, uh, narcotics guy for the Bonannos. Uh, but he had violated his parole, so they sent him back. So I started hanging out with, uh, with Ruggiero. Uh, (clears throat) and, uh, what Mira never did and what Ruggiero did is, uh, uh, his captain was a guy by the name of Mike Sabella. And, uh, once I got, once Ruggiero got to know me a little better, he brings me to Mike Sabella, who's the captain of the crew. And, uh, he, he said to Mike, uh, "I'm going on record that Donnie's with me." And that's what you do. When you're a made guy, you have an associate, you go to your captain, and you, you go on the record, so now nobody else could, could fuck with you. Nobody else could take you. Mira never did that. Even though I, I spent a lot of time with Mira, he never went to his captain and said, "I'm going on record that Donnie's with me." So I get to know, I get to know Ruggiero pretty good, uh, start doing stuff with, with them-

   29. JRJoe Rogan38:54

       So all told, how much time are you undercover now?

   30. JPJoe Pistone38:57

       Now this is probably-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Right. …

   1. JPJoe Pistone45:00

      you. (laughs) I'm not vouching for you, 'cause I don't know if you're any fucking good or not.

   2. NANarrator45:04

      Right.

   3. JPJoe Pistone45:05

      You know? So they reach out to me and they say, "Hey, uh, uh, we got an operation going in Milwaukee." "Yeah?" "And, uh, this is what it is. We got a vending machine company. We got, we got trucks. We got, um, uh, we got a warehouse. We got machines. But we're not getting anywhere, you know? The undercover..." Uh, "Who's the undercover?" "Ty Cobb." That was his... Yeah, that, that was the agent's real name.

   4. NANarrator45:40

      Huh.

   5. JPJoe Pistone45:40

      Is, is, uh... I said, "Ty's the undercover." They said, "Yeah." I said, "Okay, now you can... Now I'll listen to you," 'cause I know k- Ty and I had done undercover work in Chicago, uh, together. I said, "Okay." So I'm talking, you know, I said, "Well, tell Ty to call me. I want to talk to Ty." So he said... He, he tells me what, what's going on. He says, "You know, I'm, I'm going to all these bars and restaurants and they won't take my machines because the mob had... It's all the mob's machines." I said, "All right." So I said, "Well, what's the plan?" "Well, maybe you can bring the Bonanos out here and we can get a sit down with the Balistreris." I says, "Well, let me, let me see." So I'm with Ruggerio one day and, uh, I just, uh, I drop a... "Hey, Left, you know, I got a call the other day from a guy that I, that I used to steal artwork with down in Baltimore, and he's out in, uh, Milwaukee." He said, "What the fuck's he doing in Milwaukee?" I says, "He's got a vending machine company and he wants me to come out and help him." He says, "Is he crazy?" He said, "They'll blow him up out there." He says, "He can't do a vending machine business out there. That's the mob." (laughs) I said, "Well, he doesn't know... He, he doesn't know anything about the mob." And we drop it. Couple days later, I says, "Hey, Left, this guy called me again. He, he needs help." He said, "Donnie, what do you, what do you think?" He said, "You can't just go out there." And then he looks at me, he says, "This guy got any money?" (laughs) I said, "I don't know. Let me ask him." I said, "I'll call him tonight and find out if he's got any money." So I, I called Ty. He was going by, he was going by the name of Tony. And I said, uh, "Hey, Tony." He said... I said, "Lefty wants to know if you got any money." He said, "All right." He said, "Tell him I got 200,000 in the bank. And, you know, I got, I got a, a warehouse full of machines. I got everything set up." I said, "Okay." So I go back to Lefty, I said, "Left, he's got... He's... Tony's got 200,000 in the bank and he's got this big warehouse set up." He says, "All right." He said, "Let me talk to Mike." Now, Mike Sabella's the captain, right?So Mike said, "All right." He said, "You and Lefty go out there. Just sit down with him and make sure that he has what he says he has. Don't tell anybody you're going." I said, "Okay." So (clears throat) the first thing is, "Call Tony and tell him to send us airplane tickets," 'cause, you know, wiseguys are ... They're not spending their own money. So the bureau, you know, Tony puts ... Gets us two, uh, plane tickets. Me and Lefty fly out there. And, uh, he takes us to the warehouse and he's, you know, they got a, they got the whole operation going on. And, uh (clears throat) , Lefty said, "Okay, should we go back t- report back to Mike?" And he said, "Okay." He says, "Now here's the story. Tony's been with the Bonanos for 10 years. He's been one ... He's been an associate of ours for 10 years," because that's what he has to tell Chicago and Milwaukee 'cause if they just say, "Donnie just met this guy," they're gonna say, "Well, (laughs) he's not with you. You didn't claim him, so we'll take the whole business."

   6. NANarrator49:50

      Right.

   7. JPJoe Pistone49:51

      So here's the way it works. Now we go to (clears throat) our consigliere, the consigliere of the Bonanos, right? A guy by the name of Bobby Badheart. You know why they called him Bobby Badheart?

   8. NANarrator50:06

      'Cause he had a bad heart?

   9. JPJoe Pistone50:07

      (laughs) Had a bad heart.

   10. NANarrator50:09

       (laughs)

   11. JPJoe Pistone50:09

       Easy, right? (laughs) .

   12. NANarrator50:12

       (laughs) .

   13. JPJoe Pistone50:12

       So he goes (clears throat) and, uh, B- Bobby Badheart now has to call Chicago, right? And tell Chicago that, "Hey, we got a guy that's been with us for 10 years. He's settled now in Milwaukee. He's been in Milwaukee for a couple years, and he," (clears throat) , "wants to go into the business and he has machines and everything and we'd like to have a sit down with Balistreri, the boss of Milwaukee." Okay. Chicago now calls Balistreri's consigliere and relates the whole story to them. So now we gotta wait and see if he wants to have the sit down. Um, a week or so goes by and Chicago calls back and said, "Okay. He'll sit ... He'll have a meet with you guys." (Clears throat) "And who's coming out?" "Um, it'll be Lefty Ruggiero and Donnie Brasco." Now Lefty's a made guy, so, you know.

   14. NANarrator51:25

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JPJoe Pistone51:25

       Uh, so they say, "Okay."

   16. NANarrator51:28

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JPJoe Pistone51:29

       "Come on out. Check into this hotel and wait for a phone call." All right, so me and Lefty fly out, check into this hotel and, uh, we wait about three or four days, just hanging around the hotel. We can't go anywhere because we, we can't miss the phone call. So we get the phone call and he says, "Okay. Come to, uh, Snug's Restaurant," such and such a day, such and such a time. It's, it's Balistreri's restaurant. He owns a hotel and it's a restaurant in his hotel. So me, Lefty (clears throat) , and Tony, the other undercover, we go there. And now if, if you know the mob joke, you, you don't get to sit down with a boss unless you're another boss. You know what I mean? Guys, made guys that are just made guys in other families don't get to sit down with a boss. So now (clears throat) who's there is, is Balistreri the boss, his underboss, his consigliere, and his two sons, who are both lawyers, right? So we have a big spread where he ... And then, "Why do you wanna be here?" "Well, you know, Tony's been with us." This ... Now L- Lefty's doing all the talking 'cause he's the made guy. "Tony's been with us for 10 years, you know? Him and, him and Donnie. Uh, they did a lot of, uh, art theft together and stuff and they've all been, they've both been with us. Uh, and Tony, Tony thought he, you know," (clears throat) "he could get the be- he can get the, um, uh, business going with, with the machines and stuff." So after this whole dinner s- probably about five or six hours, they said, "Okay, we'll get back to you." All right. So a couple of days later, they called. "Why don't you have dinner at my house?" The fucking boss is inviting us to dinner at his house? It doesn't happen, if you know the, the world of the mafia. Gives us the address (clears throat) , me, Lefty, and Tony, and Lefty's like, "Y- y-" Y- you gotta know wiseguys, right? Lefty's like, "We're going to the dinner at a mob boss's house, at his house." He's like, you know ... I mean, we know it's a big deal, but-

   18. NANarrator54:26

       (laughs) .

   19. JPJoe Pistone54:26

       ... to a wiseguy it's a big fucking deal too. So we go to his house and he's right on the lake. He has a...... big, big table, you know, like you see in the movies, and got the maids, uh, serving us. And he said, "Okay." He said, uh, "We'll go in partners. We're be 50/50 partners. Tony does all the work. You know, we'll tell you where to go to, uh, to put your machines in. They'll take your machines." So now, what did we just do? We just married two mafia families together, Bonanos and the Balistreri's through Chicago, at first, marrying two mafia families to do business together. All right? Me and Lefty go back to New York. Everything's going good. Uh, Tony's meeting with the sons 'cause that's who he said, "You meet with my sons." All right? Uh, after a few months, nothing. They stopped meeting with him. Don't know why. They won't take his calls. Nothing. Uh, so I tell, I said, "Lefty, they, they don't... They're not responding." "What do you mean, they're not responding?" I said, "They're not taking his calls anymore." He said, "Well, w- what did he do? Try to, you know..." I said, "Tony..." I said, "Lefty, this guy's not like that." Make a long story short, Tony had been a cop in a city outside of Milwaukee, after he got out of the Marine Corps, before he went into the Bureau, and somehow they found out.

   20. NANarrator56:34

       Ooh.

   21. JPJoe Pistone56:34

       There was a leak somewhere, but they don't, they don't tell... W- we find this out later that this is how they... They don't tell this to Lefty, which saved my ass 'cause I, I vouched for Tony.

   22. NANarrator56:52

       Right.

   23. JPJoe Pistone56:53

       All right? So we're trying to get in touch with Chicago. Chicago's not, you know, Chicago said, "Hey, we don't know why they, why they stopped... You know, we don't have any idea." So that goes... Now, that's (laughs) I got that hanging on me, right?

   24. NANarrator57:20

       Yeah.

   25. JPJoe Pistone57:23

       So Left- Lefty sends me to, to Milwaukee, go, you know, go find out, uh, go search for this guy and blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I come up with a story. Left, you know, "I found his car. It was in the parking lot. I mean, it was in the, uh, parking lot of the, uh, airport. Uh, then when I went back, it was gone. Uh, so I go and I... They said, 'Oh, the cops towed it.' You know, and it's all bullshit, of course, but I gotta cover, you know, what happened to this guy. So now we gotta go tell Mike Sibella, our captain, 'cause, you know, our money source dried up. So we go sit down (laughs) with Mike. This is hard to believe, but... And he's ripping, right? Y- you know what m- my punishment was?

   26. NANarrator58:25

       What?

   27. JPJoe Pistone58:26

       I couldn't go to the Christmas party. (laughs)

   28. NANarrator58:29

       (laughs) That's it?

   29. JPJoe Pistone58:30

       That's it. I mean, he was, he was ripped, but he banned me from the Christmas party.

   30. NANarrator58:38

       Because you introduced him to the cop.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   You want it? You…

   1. JPJoe Pistone1:00:00

      um... Nice cup. (laughs)

   2. NANarrator1:00:03

      You want it? You can have it.

   3. JPJoe Pistone1:00:04

      No, thank you. I got some swag coming for you.

   4. NANarrator1:00:07

      All right.

   5. JPJoe Pistone1:00:08

      Yeah, yeah, b- yeah.

   6. NANarrator1:00:09

      Well, I got swag too.

   7. JPJoe Pistone1:00:10

      (laughs)

   8. NANarrator1:00:10

      You can have one of them JRE cups.

   9. JPJoe Pistone1:00:11

      Yeah, but I mean, I, I got a lot of Donnie Brasco swag-

   10. NANarrator1:00:14

       (laughs)

   11. JPJoe Pistone1:00:14

       ... that I'm gonna mail to you.

   12. NANarrator1:00:15

       All right, cool.

   13. JPJoe Pistone1:00:16

       It was supposed to be at the hotel. It, (laughs) it never made it so-

   14. NANarrator1:00:20

       But this has to be hair-raising.

   15. JPJoe Pistone1:00:22

       It is because now I'm like... And, and Lefty said... You know, now he's, he's grilling me again about my relationship with, with Tony.

   16. NANarrator1:00:32

       Right.

   17. JPJoe Pistone1:00:32

       You know, and, but I gotta stick to the story, you know?

   18. NANarrator1:00:34

       Right.

   19. JPJoe Pistone1:00:35

       Uh, so, um-... so I- I- I kind of, uh, squared things a- squared things ar- around with him and, because I, you know... Um, and Mike. So now what happens is that, um, uh, at the time, Carmine Galante was the boss of the Bonannos, all right? And, uh, they kill Galante, they whack him, right? 'Cause there's- there's kind of a beef within the family and- and, uh, one side didn't like Galante so they- they whack him. Mike Sabella now was associated with Galante, so they tell Mike, "Mike, either step down or we're gonna- we're gonna whack you too." So he gives up his captainship and just becomes a regular soldier again, right? So one of the, uh, originators, when I say originators, uh, instigators, whatever, uh, was a guy by the name of Sonny Black Napolitano. He was out in Brooklyn. So they put me and... Remember, we were with Mike Sabella, so they put me and Lefty now with, under Sonny Black. They make, Sonny Black, uh, becomes a captain. They put me and Lefty under Sonny Black out in Brooklyn. So that's who we report to every day. And what you, you know, you have to- you have to check in with your captain every day, so every day, um, me and Lefty would report out the- uh, the Motion Lounge. Uh, it was on Gramercy Street in Brooklyn 'cause he's- he's, Sonny's our new captain. Uh, so, uh, and- and again, you know, the- the intelligence information I'm gathering is like no other that anybody else can get because, you know, informants aren't gonna give you all this stuff. And I'm- I'm meeting different people. Again, I'm meeting people from, uh, different families through these guys. So I'm rocking out there in- in, uh, in Brooklyn, uh, under Sonny Black and I get another call, uh, they wanna, the headquarters wants to talk to you. About what? Well, we got an undercover operation going in Tampa, Florida. Yeah? And we wanna see if you can bring your Bonannos in. I says, "Hey, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I just went through this in Milwaukee." Well, supervisor wants to talk to you. I knew the supervisor, supervisor's a good guy. Uh, so I call him, I said, "Tony, what's up?" He says, "We got a nightclub and, um, it's pretty, you know, it's pretty good but we can't get into Santo Trafficante and maybe, you know, maybe you can do the same thing you did in Milwaukee." I said, "I don't know, man." I said, "If I do it, number one, who's the undercovers?" (laughs) 'Cause they had two-

   20. NANarrator1:04:32

       Yeah.

   21. JPJoe Pistone1:04:32

       ... undercovers running the nightclub and they said, "Uh, well, one of them is, uh, an agent by the name of Samari Steve." And I said, "Okay." I said, "He's, I know Steve, I did undercover work with him too." I said, "I got no problem with Steve" and they gave me the other guy. The other guy I knew but I didn't, I never worked with him. I said, "But as long as Steve is- is involved, I'll see what I can do but I don't know how long it's gonna take so you gotta just let me think about this, all right? 'Cause I don't wanna come up, you know, I'm not coming up with a story, hey, I- I got a call from a guy that I used to fight and thieve with."

   22. NANarrator1:05:21

       Right, right, right.

   23. JPJoe Pistone1:05:23

       So I figure, okay, after a while, I... Okay, here's what we'll do. We used to go to Miami a lot. When I say we, I'm talking about me, Lefty, the wise guys. We'd fly to Miami for a- a long weekend. We had a hotel down there that, uh, put us on down the arm, right? Give us the suites and stuff and stay for the weekend. So I says, "Okay, here's what we'll do. The next time we go to Miami, right, you guys go down there and, uh, we're- we'll, whenever we go to a restaurant, I'll let you know what restaurant we're gonna go to and you guys just happen to be in the restaurant and you- you..." Uh, S- uh, S- Steve Samari, who was going by Chico, I said, "Chico just happens to notice me and comes over to the table and, 'Hey, Donnie, how you been?'" So it's like a bump, right? It's not like-

   24. NANarrator1:06:34

       Right, right, right, right.

   25. JPJoe Pistone1:06:37

       So that's what we did. So we're out at this restaurant in-... uh, we set that deal up and Chico comes over and, "Donnie, hey, I haven't seen you in years. How you doing?" "I'm good. What are you doing down here?" "Well, we got a nightclub." "You got a nightclub? Where?" "It's, uh, outside of Tampa, up in Tampa, Florida." "No kidding. How long you been down there?" "Uh, I don't know, three, four years. You know, what are you doing?" "Nothing, it's a nice club. Why don't you come by?" Now that, you know, again, he was talking about a nightclub and, you know, so ev- everything is, is dollar signs. So I said, "Lefty, you wanna take a ride up one day?" He said, "Yeah." So when they leave, he says, "You know these guys?" I said, "Well, I know Chico." I said, "I don't know the other guy." I said, "But you know, Chico, he's, he was a good, he was a good thief, you know." I said, "I haven't seen him in a while. I haven't seen him in, like, maybe five years, but he's always was, you know, he was always a good thief." So, uh, he said, "All right." He said, "Let's take a ride up." So we take a ride up, and it's a nice, n- nice nightclub. It's on, like, five acres. They got tennis courts. We hang out, lot of, lot of business, you know. Uh, it was open from, uh, I don't know, 9:00 to all... It was one of, you know, open all night. So he said, "Nice place." He said, uh, "We have to tell Sonny about it when we go back to, when we go back to Brooklyn." Okay, so we go back to Brooklyn and, uh, tell Sonny about it. Now, you know, now I'm, like, in my fourth year (laughs) with these guys.

   26. NANarrator1:08:43

       Wow.

   27. JPJoe Pistone1:08:43

       So, uh, we go back to Brooklyn and, uh, tell Sonny, uh, uh, Lefty. "Hey, uh, we ran into one of Donnie's old friends. Boy, they got a nice club there." "Oh, yeah? Well, maybe we'll go down and see it." So we go down and they see a lot of potential, uh, but now we, they can't operate anything illegal because Santo Trafficante owns Florida.

   28. NANarrator1:09:15

       Mm.

   29. JPJoe Pistone1:09:17

       So now we gotta go through the same routine, all right? The consigliere has to call Trafficante's guy and say, "Hey, we got, you know, uh, one of our guys has a club down there who has been with us for..." You know, now Chico has been, had been, had to be with the Bonannos again for five, six years. (coughs) Excuse me. So we go through that same routine, and, uh, finally, uh, you know, that... This takes a while. It's not, like, overnight. So we go through the routine and he says okay. His guy says, "All right, uh, Santo will meet you at such and such a hotel on such and such a day." Get to meet another fucking boss up at Florida. Me and Sonny meet him. We actually... Oh, no, the first time we met him was at, at a restaurant in, uh, uh, right outside of Tampa, that, uh, Greek fishing village. Um, now I'm drawing a blank, but at any rate, we meet him in a restaurant and, uh, actually it was Pappas' Restaurant. That was the name of it. And, uh, Sonny had never met him before, but, you know, they go through all the niceties. And, uh, S- Sonny tells him, "You know, we got a nightclub and we wanna start running gambling out of it." You know, so he says, "Okay, I'll, I'll meet you. I'll come up and look at it. I'll meet you." So I, I don't know if we met him the next week or the next couple weeks. We meet him again. Now this time, it's in a hotel room. Uh, he comes to Sonny's hotel room, uh, and, uh, sets everything up, right? Forms the marriage. Again, not, this is the second time we've married two fucking mafia families together. So he, uh, he said, "All right." He said, "You wanna do a casino night?" "Yeah." He said, "I'm gonna send my two guys up." "Okay." Couple days later, two guys come up from Miami, card sharks. I sat in the hotel with these room guys, uh, Joe, and they were marking all the decks of cards. I could not... After they get done, I had no idea how they marked these cards. They were for blackjack and stuff, right? Had craps tables. The dice were, (laughs) dice were fixed. I mean, it was like... (laughs) Everything was, you know... So we set the club up, um, and, uh, uh, we're advertising a casino night for the Veterans of Foreign War. We even had a certificate and everything, right?... you know, we're paying off somebody in the sheriff's department to protect us. Well, we got the- the game going and, uh, doing pretty good, doing pretty good. And, uh, place is jammed. So what happens is that, uh, all of a sudden there's a knock on the door. One of the doormen slides in. He comes to me, he says, "Donnie," he says, "A bunch of sheriff's deputies outside."

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:13:30

       Ugh.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:30:00

   It was a gambling…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:15:00

      I don't understand.

   2. JPJoe Pistone1:15:00

      It was a gambling charge.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:15:03

      Right.

   4. JPJoe Pistone1:15:03

      So they arrest us.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:15:04

      Oh, because... But why because of the one-armed bandit?

   6. JPJoe Pistone1:15:08

      Because th- th- they won and they said that that's- that was gambling.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:12

      Oh.

   8. JPJoe Pistone1:15:13

      (laughs) That was gambling. Nobody even knew there was any money in it or anything. It was just there as decoration.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:15:20

      Oh, boy.

   10. JPJoe Pistone1:15:21

       You know, it was- it was an antique.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:15:25

       So they just used it as an excuse?

   12. JPJoe Pistone1:15:26

       Yeah, just used it as an excuse because we were the- we were the- the mafia guineas (laughs) from- from New York.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:15:34

       Right.

   14. JPJoe Pistone1:15:34

       That's what we were, right? So they throw us in the can and, uh-

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:15:40

       Just for the one-armed bandit?

   16. JPJoe Pistone1:15:41

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:15:41

       They never found the money?

   18. JPJoe Pistone1:15:43

       Uh, we didn't but somebody did.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:15:45

       Oh, boy.

   20. JPJoe Pistone1:15:47

       (laughs) Somebody did.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:15:48

       How much money?

   22. JPJoe Pistone1:15:49

       (clears throat) Uh, it was over 30 grand that- that I know that was stashed.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:15:57

       So they swiped that?

   24. JPJoe Pistone1:15:58

       Well, I don't know. Somebody did.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:16:00

       Probably.

   26. JPJoe Pistone1:16:00

       Somebody did.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:16:01

       Yeah.

   28. JPJoe Pistone1:16:02

       So we had Trafficante's lawyer, one of... he gave us... I don't know who it was. So we call the lawyer and he gets us out of the can the next day. Uh, uh, and now (laughs) - now I'm in another fucking bind because (laughs) now we got busted and... We did... You know, we were paying the guy off.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:16:26

       And what happened to the guy you paid off?

   30. JPJoe Pistone1:16:29

       He committed suicide later on.
7. 1:30:00 – 1:40:40

   Right. …

   1. JPJoe Pistone1:30:00

      never promised anything that I couldn't do. I never let anybody back me against the wall, you know? Um, and I never got into anybody's face to make myself look tough.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:30:15

      Right.

   3. JPJoe Pistone1:30:16

      You know? I mean, and that's where a lot of young undercovers go wrong that they think... you know, they watch too much television. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:30:24

      (laughs)

   5. JPJoe Pistone1:30:24

      I mean, to be honest, (laughs) to be honest with ya, they... uh, y- y- the only time I... the, the only time I, (clears throat) I screwed up, I, I, I tell you, we're in Miami, all right? And, um, I'm in another undercover's car. So it might have been... it might have been Chico's. I, I don't remember. So there's three bad guys and, you know, and he had his car wired up.So (clears throat) we're riding by, and- and- and- and- and it's a strip club. And it said, "20, um, 22 naked dancing girls." And I said, "44 nipples." That's all I said. Well, that came out at trial (laughs) by the defense attorney, and I had to explain why I was such an expert on female nipples.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:31:45

      (laughs) That's just simple math.

   7. JPJoe Pistone1:31:48

      But what I'm saying is, you know-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:31:53

      So somebody remembered you saying that?

   9. JPJoe Pistone1:31:54

      Well, it was on the tape.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:31:55

       On the tape.

   11. JPJoe Pistone1:31:56

       On the tape.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:31:57

       Right. So they were trying to use that against you?

   13. JPJoe Pistone1:31:59

       Yeah, that was... You know, my... It was a, my character was, you know, was questioned. Uh, but, you know, it goes back to what I say, is it, is that I would not normally (laughs) say that.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:32:14

       Right.

   15. JPJoe Pistone1:32:14

       You know what I mean?

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:32:15

       Right, right, right, right.

   17. JPJoe Pistone1:32:16

       Uh, it was just a dumb statement, but it, it's always gonna come back to bite you in the ass.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:32:21

       Right, right, right, gotcha.

   19. JPJoe Pistone1:32:23

       Uh, so...

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:32:24

       Yeah, you just got caught up in it.

   21. JPJoe Pistone1:32:25

       Yeah, yeah. So they-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:32:27

       So what happened when they opened up the books?

   23. JPJoe Pistone1:32:30

       Well, they closed the case down.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:32:32

       Ah, wow.

   25. JPJoe Pistone1:32:33

       So I got them to, I got them to- to postpone it till July 'cause we had one more meeting with Traficanti set up. So I, I got them to postpone it until after that meeting, but I couldn't get them to- to wait until after I got inducted into the, into the family. They wouldn't wait.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:32:52

       Wow.

   27. JPJoe Pistone1:32:53

       So they, they closed the operation July 27th. Uh, yeah. Yeah. And, uh, six years undercover, seven years of testifying.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:33:06

       Wow.

   29. JPJoe Pistone1:33:07

       (clears throat) But I was lucky enough that, uh, after that case, I did, I did undercover work overseas. I did undercover work for Scotland Yard.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:33:15

       Oh, really?

Episode duration: 2:20:43