EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,122 words- 0:00 – 0:51
Sunglasses, secrecy, and living next to ‘Donnie Brasco’
- NANarrator
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays)
- JRJoe Rogan
Nice to meet you.
- JPJoe Pistone
My pleasure.
- JRJoe Rogan
You always wear sunglasses. Is that to hide your identity still?
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Force of habit?
- JPJoe Pistone
A- actually, it's, it's... (sighs) I have to see, number one. (laughs) But where I, where I reside now, uh, my neighbors d- have no idea that they're living next to Donnie Brasco, so...
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you have a very distinct voice.
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah, I know. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) I don't wanna ask where you live. But, you know. What a wild life you've had, sir.
- JPJoe Pistone
Well, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. It, uh, never expected to go like that, but it, uh, it took off.
- 0:51 – 2:45
From Naval Intelligence to FBI street cases
- JRJoe Rogan
So when you, w- you first started working, it was with the FBI, correct?
- JPJoe Pistone
Well, I was with Naval Intelligence, uh, for three years. And then, um, uh, I always wanted to be, uh, in law enforcement. Uh, and I was working in Philadelphia actually, and, uh, you do a lot of work with the FBI because, you know, on the, uh, government installations, government, uh, bases. So I became friendly with some FBI agents and then, uh, I, I figured if I, you know, if w- when I get a- when I finish this, uh, tour with NIS, um, I'm gonna go into law enforcement, so I might as well try it for the best and the best is, you know, the FBI.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so how does that lead to you infiltrating the mob?
- JPJoe Pistone
W- well, you know, I didn't, it, I didn't im- infiltrate the mob right from the get-go, you know? It, um... Look, I grew up in, uh, in Paterson, New Jersey. I grew up in an all-Italian neighborhood. Uh, knew wise guys, went to high school with sons of wise guys. And when you're in a neighborhood, you know, you know, you know who the wise guys are. You hang out at the, you're th- they let you hang out at the, the social clubs because, you know, you're a neighborhood kid, they know it. So I knew the streets. Um, so when I went into the FBI, I was, you know, I was street smart basically, Joe. That's what it comes down to, you know? Uh, and, uh, my first assignments were bank robberies, fugitives, gambling cases, and, uh, I started, uh, doing some, uh, little undercover work, uh, on gambling cases 'cause back then, the FBI was big into, into gambling, uh, interstate gambling cases.
- 2:45 – 4:54
First undercover work: gambling houses, stolen art, and low exposure risk
- JRJoe Rogan
So what was your first undercover work?
- JPJoe Pistone
First was, uh, infiltrating a, um, a gambling house in, uh, Jacksonville, Florida actually. That was my first office.
- JRJoe Rogan
What kind of gambling were they doing?
- JPJoe Pistone
Uh, craps. Uh, they had a regular casino going. And, uh, you know, I felt comfortable around that stuff because I grew up with that stuff. You know, I grew up, uh, uh, like I say, in the neighborhood, uh, crap games, card games. It wasn't, wasn't anything new to me and being around gangsters was not like, uh, intimidating because I was around (laughs) gangsters growing up. So, uh, I didn't have any problem, you know, getting into these games, um, and identifying the major players, uh, and who was running them and that's basically what it was.
- JRJoe Rogan
So when y- when you do this, did you have to testify in court with these guys?
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah, later on, after the case goes down. But most of these guys plead guilty, so you never go to trial.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JPJoe Pistone
Because, uh, you know, it, it, it, it wasn't where they were facing, you know, 15, 20 years, you know? They might get a, a year or two years and then, you know, uh, get some time knocked off their sentences. So most of it, uh, they plead and so you never have to appear in a court.
- JRJoe Rogan
So but was there an issue with you being discovered and then getting found out and worrying about your safety afterwards?
- JPJoe Pistone
Well, not too much with these cases, no. Not too much with those cases and then I, I worked a lot of, uh, stolen art, buying, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JPJoe Pistone
... uh, buying stolen art, buying stocks and bonds, swag, stuff like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
So f- how many years did you do stuff like that before you started being undercover in the mob?
- JPJoe Pistone
Uh, let's see. Probably, uh, four, five years. Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you slowly sort of got acclimated with being undercover, you do a bunch of cases, and then how do they approach you?
- 4:54 – 8:47
Learning to steal cars to infiltrate an auto-theft crew
- JPJoe Pistone
Well, what happened was is that, uh, I'm working out of New York, the New York office of the FBI, and there's a, there's a big case in, uh, in Tampa, Florida. They have a case going on, uh, guys that were, uh, stealing, uh, automobiles, high-priced automobiles. In other words, uh, you go to them and you say, "Hey, I want a Cadillac." "Okay. What color you want?" "All right." "What model you want?" And then they, they go out and hook it. So they had, uh, th- they grabbed one of the guys, uh, and they, they flipped him and, uh, they grabbed his son and, uh, they said, "Hey, look, you know, you help us and we'll, we'll cut your son a break." He said okay. So they said, "Look, uh, we wanna put an undercover agent in with this crew." Th- they operated all up and down the East Coast, from Baltimore all the way down to Florida.And, uh, the guy that, uh, was running it was a, what we call, a half-assed wise guy out of, out of Baltimore. So he says, "All right." So he introduces me to this guy and, uh, as a car thief. But before, uh, he introduced me, I said, "Look, I, I gotta know how to steal cars." So he gave me, uh, about a week's lesson on how to steal cars, how to hook cars. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, hotwiring it. This is, like, what year was this?
- JPJoe Pistone
This was in, uh, 19 ... Let's see, 1970, maybe '73, '74.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you essentially just pop in the ignition and then-
- JPJoe Pistone
Pop it, pop in the ignition, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Cross some wires.
- JPJoe Pistone
Crossing wires, uh, and some cars had alarm systems.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JPJoe Pistone
Taught me how to get under the car, uh, disarm the alarm system, how to use a slim jim to get in the door, and then how to, uh, uh, how to pop the ignition. Uh, and once I learned, you know, I figured I can do that, then he introduced me and I got in with this crew. There was a crew of about ... He was running, like, five or six guys. And, uh, I did that for a year and a half, stole cars, um, stole the tractor trailers. I knew how to drive a, I knew how to drive, uh, uh, tractor trailers 'cause I did that in college. During the summertime, I drove a tractor trailer, uh, during the summer.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you'd take the cars, load them on a tractor trailer?
- JPJoe Pistone
No. We just stole the cars and I'd bring them to you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay.
- JPJoe Pistone
But, I mean, we, we stole, uh, rigs too-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, I see.
- JPJoe Pistone
... because we were (laughs) dealing with companies too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Got it.
- JPJoe Pistone
You know, these guys that, uh, owned some, some trucking companies that they-
- JRJoe Rogan
But you, so you have to trust this guy, though, to get you inside. Right? You have to trust this guy-
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to not fuck this up and say, "Hey, this is a car thief."
- JPJoe Pistone
Exactly. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's got to be hair-raising.
- JPJoe Pistone
Well, it is because, you know, the guy's an informant and he-
- JRJoe Rogan
And he's already in trouble.
- JPJoe Pistone
He's in trouble. Uh, but it was in ... He, he, his basic reason for, for getting me in was he wanted to get his son out of trouble.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JPJoe Pistone
So, you know, we, we had him by the short hairs there that, uh, "Hey, you know, if this goes good, your son is free. We're gonna let, we're gonna, we're gonna cut your son free." So that's what happened. So I did that for a year and a half, and, um, um, I get back to New York. We, we, they make the arrest. Uh, I went to trial in that case, but that case was in, uh, in Florida. Uh, and, uh,
- 8:47 – 10:26
A courtroom moment: the ‘dinner after my husband goes to jail’ story
- JPJoe Pistone
a funny story on that case is, uh ... if you wanna hear it. It's fine. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JPJoe Pistone
We s- we had, uh ... I, I hooked one, hooked a Mercedes and delivered to this guy. And, uh, go to his house and he wasn't home, but his wife was there. So I said, "Hey, you know, I'm delivering this car for your husband." And she says, "Oh, okay." Uh, you know, give her the keys and ... 'Cause he had already paid and so me and the other guy, we leave. Fast forwarding now to court. I'm going there. I'm sitting in the, uh, outside the court getting ready to testify. And there's this lady, uh, she looked familiar. There was two, two ladies. And, um, so, uh, she walks up to me. She says, uh, "Aren't you Donny?" I said, "Yeah." She said, uh, "You delivered a car to my house, right?" I said, "Yeah." She said, "Well, you know, my husband's on trial now." And I said, (laughs) "Yeah, I know. I'm going in to testify." She says, "After he goes to jail, you wanna go to dinner?" (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Dirty lady.
- JPJoe Pistone
I said, "No, thanks." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) She might poison you.
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah. So I get back to New York and, um, uh, I had a real great supervisor up there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was she hot?
- JPJoe Pistone
I can't remember, Joe. It was so long ago.
- JRJoe Rogan
I would have remembered that part. (laughs)
- JPJoe Pistone
(laughs) If she was, I would have remembered.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, you probably would have remembered.
- 10:26 – 14:45
Designing the Donnie Brasco legend: jewel thief tradecraft and backstopping
- JPJoe Pistone
(laughs) So, uh, I get back to New York and I had a real good supervisor, uh, named Guy Berada who was an Italian guy from, uh, from the Bronx, good street agent, um, and, uh, he was a supervisor of the truck hijacking squad. And back in the day, they were hijacking ... And, and all these hijackings were orchestrated by the mob, the mafia. And, uh, they were probably doing, you know, eight to 10 hijackings a day, which was big time money because they, they were pharmaceuticals, uh, high value, uh, food items like lobsters, coffee. You know, you're talking about the 40 some foot trailers, so you're talking a lot of money. But they were all run by the mob. So he, uh ... I get back to New York. I get to New York and, uh, he says, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this undercover operation. Uh, see if we, you know, we can get something going with, with these, uh, these truck hijackings." So the idea was, you know, nobody had ever infiltrated the mob before, you know, actually the mafia Mafia. Had inf- had some informants in, in with them, but nobody had actually gotten in. So the idea was let's, let's try to hit the fences. Fences are the, you know, the guys at the, that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sell the goods.
- JPJoe Pistone
... sell the, the swag and sell the goods. So, you know, you need to have a profession. I mean, nobody's gonna do anything with you without a profession, and it has to be one that's a- attractive to them. And plus, in the government, you're, if you're gonna go undercover, your profession can't be one of violence. So who's not violent?... jewel thief.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JPJoe Pistone
So, I figure, "Okay, I'll go in as a jewel thief." Well, for ... If you're gonna go in as a jewel thief, what do you have to know? (laughs) You gotta know diamonds and precious gems, right? All right. So I went to, I went to school. I went to diamond school, diamond and precious gem school.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, so you have to be able to identify-
- JPJoe Pistone
Oh, yeah. I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
... be able to use a lens.
- JPJoe Pistone
Well, that's how you're gonna get, that's how you're gonna get caught, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. Right, right, right.
- JPJoe Pistone
Is if you get in a conversation, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Right. How long is the school for?
- JPJoe Pistone
I went, I think, for a couple of months-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- JPJoe Pistone
... until I got, you know, where I was comfortable. Now, take it another step further. If you're a jewel thief, what else do you have to know? You gotta know how to get in places.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Pick locks.
- JPJoe Pistone
... I had to learn how to pick locks, right? What else you gotta know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Crack safes.
- JPJoe Pistone
(laughs) You gotta know about safes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JPJoe Pistone
You gotta know about alarm systems.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JPJoe Pistone
So I had my guys ... When I say my guys, our guys, you know, our tech guys, school me on lock picking, different types of safes and alarm systems. So all that took a few months before I felt comfortable, you know. And then, uh, I went out and ... On this operation, uh, we didn't do anything with contacts. In other words, everything I did, I did under Donnie Brasco. I was ... I rented an apartment, I bought a car, uh, utilities, you know, phones, everything. Everything as a, as a citizen, in quotes, Donnie Brasco.
- JRJoe Rogan
They get you a Social Security number and the whole deal?
- JPJoe Pistone
Social Security, everything. But, uh, you know, I don't wanna get into h- how they do that but, eh, you know, nothing could be ... At that time, they, they couldn't, they, they couldn't, uh, uncover anything. So once I got my apartment, I bought a car, I had all that set up. Uh, and again, you have to know the mafia, you have to know New York City. Uh, you don't just walk into a, a place, you know, and say, "Hey, you know, I'm a jewel thief."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 14:45 – 20:37
Cold entry into mob circles: months of waiting, protocols, and the first hook
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah. It doesn't work that way. You gotta, you gotta get seen, you gotta be around. Uh, so I moved out of my residence. Uh, of course, my family wasn't, wasn't in, uh, in New York anyway, but I had to move into my apartment. Uh, and we had certain bars and restaurants that we knew these fences and wise guys hung out in. And the idea was just go in, get my face seen, and hopefully get into conversation with somebody. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
How do you go and get your face seen? You just show up by yourself?
- JPJoe Pistone
Just show up.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that suspicious, though? A guy shows up by himself, not from the neighborhood?
- JPJoe Pistone
No. Well, that's the thing. I, see, because I couldn't say, "Hey, I'm from Brooklyn."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
"I'm from Manhattan," "I'm from the Bronx," because these guys have the contacts everywhere.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So i- it was up to me if I got into conversation with anybody, my story was ... And then again, you have to, you have to, you have to know your enemy, okay? The enemy was the mafia. So you have to know a l- about the mafia. You have to know if you do get into conversation with these guys and they're, they're trying to check you out, what's your backstory, where are you from. My background was I was an orphan, okay? And I moved between Florida and California. Why an orphan? Because then I wouldn't have to produce a mother and a father, 'cause again, if I was lucky enough to get in, they'd say, "Well, where are your parents at?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
Uh, I couldn't have any siblings that I knew of.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
I couldn't have been married, so I couldn't have an ex-wife or anything, because I would have had to produce somebody.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So my backstory was I was an orphan. To back it up, we found an orphanage that had burnt down and all the records were destroyed, so they couldn't-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JPJoe Pistone
They couldn't check that. I mean, these are all things that, that if you're gonna send somebody into an undercover operation that is, uh, deep cover ... And remember, I had no informant bringing me in. This was a ... It had to be a cold entry. So I hung around, uh, maybe five, six months. That's all I did. And that's another thing too. It's a seven-day-a-week job, 'cause if they see you Monday to Friday and then they don't see you Saturday and Sunday, where the hell are you Saturday and Sunday?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So it's seven days a week. It was seven-days a week.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you have a family at the time?
- JPJoe Pistone
I did, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JPJoe Pistone
But they, they lived, they lived across country at the time.
- JRJoe Rogan
That had to be crazy difficult for them.
- JPJoe Pistone
Very difficult. It was. It was, yeah. Uh, so, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
So you just kinda just hang around restaurants, bars?
- JPJoe Pistone
Just ... Yeah. And my only conversation with anybody was, is, uh (laughs) what I'll have to drink and what I'll have to eat. That's ... And I'm not a drinker. I never was a drinker. So, um ... And, you know, for young undercovers, you don't have to be a drinker and you don't have to do shit that, you know, that you think gangsters do. Uh-My, my extent of drinking was - and it still is - is a half a bottle of beer and maybe a glass of red wine. That's it. And I never, I never, um, went outside those boundaries because that's, that, that's me. I didn't do it.
- NANarrator
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So I used to go to this one place and, uh, actually this place wasn't too far from my, um, uh, my apartment up in, uh, uh, Yorkville. And, uh, wise guys would come in there. I don't remember if it was Wednesdays or Thursdays, I, I don't remember, with their girlfriends for dinner. And, uh, I always would sit at the bar, you know? Never talked to the bartender other than, "What do you want? What do you want to eat? What do you want to drink?" Uh, so one night I go in there and, and, uh, the wise guys are there. Uh, one of the girlfriends... But there's one guy missing, but the, the girl that he was always with was there. So I'm at the bar and, uh, I guess she gets up, she goes to the ladies room, she comes by and she says, "Hello." And I just said, "Hello." Now again, knowing your enemy, know how they operate. So the first thing I do is I call the bartender over, right? Now, I know his name, but I don't call him by his name because I was never introduced to him. So I just said, "Sir, would you," you know? I said, "I wanna go on record." That's a mob term. "I wanna go on record. I didn't ask that young lady to stop and say hello." And he just nods and that's it. Well, fast-forward, this happens, like, three or four different times. And, um, they're in there, she's in there, he's not there. About the fourth time, the same thing, you know? She would come over and-
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- 20:37 – 32:15
Proving value with diamonds—and surviving a locked-door ‘sit-down’ test
- JPJoe Pistone
(laughs) They whacked him. So I said, "No, I don't have any, I don't have any, uh, any interest." So now what does this guy know? He knows that I'm a street guy, all right? So he, um, uh, now he comes over to me and now we start talking, all right? Talking about baseball, talking about how screwed up New York City is at the time. Uh, and, uh, finally he says, "Hey, my name is Charlie." I said, "My name is Donnie." Now that's another thing. These guys don't introduce themselves like normal people, you know? Like, "Hey, my name is Joe Rogan," or, "Hey, my name is Donnie Brasco." It's nickname or first name. So that's another notch with him that this kid knows something. So a couple, uh, couple of weeks maybe go by and then one night he says, "Hey, you like to gamble?" I said, "Sure, why not?" He said, "When I bang up here, I'm gonna go to a, I'm gonna go to an all-night, uh, game." He said, "You wanna come?" I said, "Yeah." So we close up the joint with him and, um, takes me to a, uh, a game. And obviously it's run by the wise guys, you know? They got a whole casino set up. And, uh, doesn't introduce me to anybody, but, uh, I'm okay because I'm with him, all right? So now this is, eh, couple more weeks maybe. So now I, I figure now... And he don't ask me what I do and I don't say anything about jewelry. So, but now I figure, now I gotta try to set, set the hook. So I come in one night and I got a packet of diamonds, all right? So I put them on the bar and I said, "Hey, Charlie, I need X amount of money for this envelope." I don't tell him what's in it. I just said, "I need X amount of money." But I give him a street price where he can make him- you know, make money himself. So he, he, uh, he takes it. He says okay, puts it under the bar. Couple weeks go by, I don't ask him about it, he don't ask me. But, you know, we're... I'm still hanging around with him. He comes in one night, puts an envelope on the bar and he said, "Donnie, somebody left this for you." I said okay and put it in my sport coat pocket. Get back to my apartment and there's the money in it, all right? So now what does he know? He knows I'm a, I'm a thief 'cause I'm giving him diamonds. I'm not asking them at, uh, prices, uh, Tiffany prices, right? Now we get to the, the, the game and he intro- you know, he introduces me as Don the Jeweler. So he introduces me to this Colombo guy. Guy's name was Jilly. So, uh, Jilly said, "Hey, you know, Don, where you from?" I said, "Well, you know, uh, hung around in, uh, hung around some in Florida. Hung around, you know, California." Uh, I said, "You know, uh, just, just move around a lot." He said, "Well, why don't come out to my place? I'm out in Brooklyn." And I said, "Yeah, okay." So I go out there and I go out to his club and he has, uh, a store, you know, all swag.And, uh, so he was at the Colombo's.
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- JPJoe Pistone
So I start hanging out there with the Colombo's, and I got in with him, I got in with his crew, um, did some stuff with them, you know, because you gotta do something otherwise-
- NANarrator
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
... if you ain't producing, if you ain't producing, you ain't worth the, you know.
- NANarrator
Like what kind of, what's the first thing you have to do with them?
- JPJoe Pistone
Well, they had, uh, they, uh, they did some hijacking and, uh, uh, you know, unloaded some trucks for them and different things. Uh, so that went on with the, with the Colombo's, and I was getting, I was getting good information with these guys. Uh, that went on for a couple of months. And, uh, finally, I get to the club one day and, uh, there's two guys there that I didn't know. So he introducing, introduces them to me as Frankie and Patsy. He said, "Donnie, you know, Frankie, Patsy." Okay. Uh, as it turns out, they just got out of the can. They were part of Jilly's crew. Uh, one of the guys was a made guy. Made guy is a guy that's been officially inducted in- into a particular mafia family. And these guys were with the Colombo's. One g- uh, I think Patsy was a made guy and Frankie, Frankie was an associate, all right? But they had just gotten out of the can. So they're looking to set up scores because, you know, they've been away for a few years. So Jilly tells them, you know, "Hey, Donnie's, you know, Donnie's a good thief, and he knows, he knows, uh, he knows alarms, he knows locks, he knows safes." So they had a couple of, uh, uh, scores lined up. So we go out, case this place and I tell them, "Hey, I, I can't bypass that alarm." Because, you know, if- if you say you can do everything, nobody can do everything, no matter how good you are. So I said, "No." I said, "I can't defeat that alarm." "Okay."
- NANarrator
(laughs) .
- JPJoe Pistone
A few, few days later, they got another one set up, and, uh, it's a safe. We go there. I said, "You gotta blow this safe, you know. You'll, you'll wake up the whole neighborhood, you know?" "Okay." So now this, this pisses them off. So couple of days later, I get to the club. And Jilly, he says, "Donnie, let's take, let's take a walk and talk." I said, "Okay." So we walk and we're talking. That's what a walk and talk is. You're walking on the street and you're talking because they don't think, you know, they don't think the FBI or anybody can hear you. I said, "What's the matter, Jilly?" He said, "Well," he said, "you know, I told, I told Frankie, uh, and, and Patsy what, you know, what a great thief you are, and he's, and they're pissed off because, you know, Patsy's pissed off because you turned down, uh, you turned down the, the two scores." I said, "Well, what do you want me to tell you, Jilly? I, I couldn't bypass the alarm, honest with you, and I don't want to blow a safe that, you know, you gotta blow, blow, blow." So he said, "Well, they want to have a sit down." I said, "Okay." So we go back in the club and then they have a back room. So we go in the back room, sit down, they lock the door. And, uh, Patsy pulls, pulls out a, uh, pulls out a .38, lays it on the table and says, "Donnie, if you don't convince me that, uh, you're as good a thief as Jilly s- says you are, the only way you're going out of this room is rolled up in that rug."
- NANarrator
Oh boy.
- JPJoe Pistone
Oh boy. So it's crazy what goes through your head. So I look at the rug, I said to myself, "I hope it's fucking Persian."
- NANarrator
(laughs) .
- JPJoe Pistone
If I'm gonna go out of here, I might as well go out on a $50,000 rug. So we're in there and, and, uh, "Where are you from, Donnie?" Now, you know, in these situations, you want to be on the offense. You don't want to be on the defense. But I can't really disrespect him because he's a made guy. And, you know, if you know anything about the mob, you, you can't disrespect a made guy in front of other people. So I said, "Hey, look, you know, I'm an orphan. I'm not from here. I've traveled the country, you know." "Well, tell us some people that you stole with." I said, "No disrespect, but I'm not giving you any names of people that I stole with." I said, "Why would I do that? Why would I give up anybody that I, that I did scores with?" All right? So this goes on and on and on. After about four hours, finally Jilly says, "Hey, Donnie's been with us for, for months now. We know what he can do. It's over. It's over." I said, "Okay." Now I got a problem. The problem is they just called me out. So in their world, I can't go shake their hand because it's, "Why isn't Donnie pissed off?" All right? My only recourse here is, is some kind of physical recourse. But I can't do, I can't do anything to Patsy because he's the made guy. I can't touch him, and that's, that's one of the rules of the mafia. You don't lay your hands on a made guy. It'll get you killed. It'll get you killed.So the only guy who can hit us is Frankie. He's not a made guy. So we get up and start to walk out, and I cold-cock Frankie.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, Jesus.
- JPJoe Pistone
But that's the only thing that, that's gonna save me because otherwise it's, "Why isn't Donnie pissed off?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So now (clears throat) I'm gonna-
- JRJoe Rogan
Was Frankie questioning you too?
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But he's not a made guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So he's fair game.
- JRJoe Rogan
Boy.
- JPJoe Pistone
So I hit him, he goes down. Now, Patsy's jumping on me and he's, he's punching the hell out, but I can't... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You can't hit him back.
- JPJoe Pistone
I can't hit him back. I can just protect myself. But I figure, "Well, you hit me once. I hit Frankie twice." So it went on. So then finally they broke it up, but now I know I can't stay around here. I can't stay with these guys because it... You know, you can't get into a altercation with made guys and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JPJoe Pistone
... and have it come out. So afterward-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JPJoe Pistone
Afterward, everything settled down, I'd say to Gilly, "Gilly, let's take a walk and talk." So we do and we get outside. I said, "Gilly, look, no disrespect to you," you know. I said, "But I can't, I can't come around here anymore." I said, "Because you know how it's gonna end." He says, "Yeah, Donnie, I realize that." He said, uh, "But, you know, no real feelings between you and me." I said, "Okay." So
- 32:15 – 44:06
Transition to the Bonannos: Tony Mirra, Lefty Ruggiero, and ‘on the record’ protection
- JPJoe Pistone
(clears throat) at the, at the card game, I, I was introduced to a Bonanno guy by the name of Tony Mirra. I had never done anything with him, but I was introduced to him. So I go back, uh, I go back with Charlie, you know, to the card games and, uh, I start siding up to, to this Mirra who was a complete psycho case, a complete fucking psycho case, which I find out later on. He's a big, broly guy. And, uh, um... He says, uh, you know, "Why don't you come downtown?" I said, "Yeah, okay." So he was from Little Italy, and, uh, that's where, uh, he hung out. He had a, uh, bus stop luncheonette down in Little Italy. But he was psycho. So I started hanging out with him at my first Bonanno guy that, that brings me around. (clears throat) Uh, so we're out one night and, uh, he was shaking down nightclubs and, uh, I, I was helping him. When I say helping, I was with him, you know, shake down owners and... Uh, at, at nightclubs and stuff. So, uh, it's about 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning one morning and, uh, we go to a diner for breakfast, and, uh, the eggs come out cold so he starts berating the waitress. And there's oth- You know, we were with, we were with other wise guys and stuff. So I said, "Tony," I said, "You know." I said, "She's only doing her job." I said, "Why are you, why are you taking it out on her? You know, she's here 4:00 in the morning waitressing." So he tore the shit out of me. He tore into me in front of every- everybody, but I really can't go back at him. But I have to let him know that, you know, uh, I'm not, I'm not a pushover and he... You know? So the next day... Now, this guy, I f- Uh, as I, as I had gotten to know him, I, I had seen him in action and... (laughs) So the next day I, I told him, I said, "Tony." And, and nobody else is around so it's, it's my word on his. I said, "Don't ever talk to me like that again in front of people." I said, "'Cause I'll fucking stab you." I said, "And you won't even know it's coming." I said, "Don't ever embarrass me like that and call me those names in front of other people." And he was like, "Ooh." So, uh, but he introduced me to... Kept introducing me to, uh, other Bonannos, and then he introduced me-
- JRJoe Rogan
So even after that?
- JPJoe Pistone
Uh, yeah, after that, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So after that, did you get his respect by saying-
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... he'd stab him?
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- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, 'cause he knew that, you know, he knew that I (laughs) I wasn't bullshitting him. I mean, you know, he just beat me down in front of other people. I mean, m- not-
- JRJoe Rogan
Physically, right?
- JPJoe Pistone
... you know, not physically, but, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JPJoe Pistone
... just calling me, you know. And, uh, 'cause I was standing up for this waitress, but that was, that was him. So he introduces me to a guy by the name of, uh, Lefty Ruggiero, another made guy in the Bonannos from, uh, Downtown, Knickerbocker Village. They all lived in Knickerbocker Village. And, um, he introduces me to Lefty. So now Mira had just gotten out of the can. Now they send him back, right? So he goes back to the can. Uh, he's a big, he was a, a big moneymaker for the Bonannos in dope. He was a big, uh, narcotics guy for the Bonannos. Uh, but he had violated his parole, so they sent him back. So I started hanging out with, uh, with Ruggiero. Uh, (clears throat) and, uh, what Mira never did and what Ruggiero did is, uh, uh, his captain was a guy by the name of Mike Sabella. And, uh, once I got, once Ruggiero got to know me a little better, he brings me to Mike Sabella, who's the captain of the crew. And, uh, he, he said to Mike, uh, "I'm going on record that Donnie's with me." And that's what you do. When you're a made guy, you have an associate, you go to your captain, and you, you go on the record, so now nobody else could, could fuck with you. Nobody else could take you. Mira never did that. Even though I, I spent a lot of time with Mira, he never went to his captain and said, "I'm going on record that Donnie's with me." So I get to know, I get to know Ruggiero pretty good, uh, start doing stuff with, with them-
- JRJoe Rogan
So all told, how much time are you undercover now?
- JPJoe Pistone
Now this is probably-
- JRJoe Rogan
For, uh-
- JPJoe Pistone
... uh, going over a year.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah, over a year now. Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, are you reporting to anybody during this time? Do you have to go back to the FBI?
- JPJoe Pistone
Never... Once I stepped outta that office, I never went back to the office.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JPJoe Pistone
I had, I had... What you have is a contact agent, Joe, and that's somebody that you, if you have a problem, you call him, and he helps you solve it.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you're totally on your own.
- JPJoe Pistone
You're on your own.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JPJoe Pistone
I, I had no surveillance because, you know, you're in New York City.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
You're working seven days a week. You know, my day would go from maybe, uh, 11 o'clock in the morning to maybe 3, 4 o'clock the next morning, seven days a week. So, you know, your only lifeline is, is the phone to this, to your contact agent. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JPJoe Pistone
And, uh, (clears throat) so I'm doing a lot of stuff like that with, with... And I'm, I'm gaining all kind of intelligence, though, you know, uh, identifying made guys, identifying guys in other families that are made.
- 44:06 – 1:00:35
Milwaukee vending machine operation: brokering a mob-to-mob partnership—and the fallout
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah, I knew, you're right, I knew the protocol. Exactly. So, um, now what happens, uh, uh, is that, um, the FBI, FBI had an operation going in Milwaukee, undercover operation against the Milwaukee family, right? The Balistreri family, who's connected to Chicago. Now this will give you, this will give you a little hint how the mob works. So they're not really g- not really going anywhere, all right? They had a vending machine company set up. And, uh, the undercover was a undercover, uh, actually that I knew, which is... 'Cause I had a, I have a, I had a rule, if I didn't know you, I don't care if you're an FBI agent or not, I'm not introducing you. (laughs) I'm not vouching for you, 'cause I don't know if you're any fucking good or not.
- NANarrator
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
You know? So they reach out to me and they say, "Hey, uh, uh, we got an operation going in Milwaukee." "Yeah?" "And, uh, this is what it is. We got a vending machine company. We got, we got trucks. We got, um, uh, we got a warehouse. We got machines. But we're not getting anywhere, you know? The undercover..." Uh, "Who's the undercover?" "Ty Cobb." That was his... Yeah, that, that was the agent's real name.
- NANarrator
Huh.
- JPJoe Pistone
Is, is, uh... I said, "Ty's the undercover." They said, "Yeah." I said, "Okay, now you can... Now I'll listen to you," 'cause I know k- Ty and I had done undercover work in Chicago, uh, together. I said, "Okay." So I'm talking, you know, I said, "Well, tell Ty to call me. I want to talk to Ty." So he said... He, he tells me what, what's going on. He says, "You know, I'm, I'm going to all these bars and restaurants and they won't take my machines because the mob had... It's all the mob's machines." I said, "All right." So I said, "Well, what's the plan?" "Well, maybe you can bring the Bonanos out here and we can get a sit down with the Balistreris." I says, "Well, let me, let me see." So I'm with Ruggerio one day and, uh, I just, uh, I drop a... "Hey, Left, you know, I got a call the other day from a guy that I, that I used to steal artwork with down in Baltimore, and he's out in, uh, Milwaukee." He said, "What the fuck's he doing in Milwaukee?" I says, "He's got a vending machine company and he wants me to come out and help him." He says, "Is he crazy?" He said, "They'll blow him up out there." He says, "He can't do a vending machine business out there. That's the mob." (laughs) I said, "Well, he doesn't know... He, he doesn't know anything about the mob." And we drop it. Couple days later, I says, "Hey, Left, this guy called me again. He, he needs help." He said, "Donnie, what do you, what do you think?" He said, "You can't just go out there." And then he looks at me, he says, "This guy got any money?" (laughs) I said, "I don't know. Let me ask him." I said, "I'll call him tonight and find out if he's got any money." So I, I called Ty. He was going by, he was going by the name of Tony. And I said, uh, "Hey, Tony." He said... I said, "Lefty wants to know if you got any money." He said, "All right." He said, "Tell him I got 200,000 in the bank. And, you know, I got, I got a, a warehouse full of machines. I got everything set up." I said, "Okay." So I go back to Lefty, I said, "Left, he's got... He's... Tony's got 200,000 in the bank and he's got this big warehouse set up." He says, "All right." He said, "Let me talk to Mike." Now, Mike Sabella's the captain, right?So Mike said, "All right." He said, "You and Lefty go out there. Just sit down with him and make sure that he has what he says he has. Don't tell anybody you're going." I said, "Okay." So (clears throat) the first thing is, "Call Tony and tell him to send us airplane tickets," 'cause, you know, wiseguys are ... They're not spending their own money. So the bureau, you know, Tony puts ... Gets us two, uh, plane tickets. Me and Lefty fly out there. And, uh, he takes us to the warehouse and he's, you know, they got a, they got the whole operation going on. And, uh (clears throat) , Lefty said, "Okay, should we go back t- report back to Mike?" And he said, "Okay." He says, "Now here's the story. Tony's been with the Bonanos for 10 years. He's been one ... He's been an associate of ours for 10 years," because that's what he has to tell Chicago and Milwaukee 'cause if they just say, "Donnie just met this guy," they're gonna say, "Well, (laughs) he's not with you. You didn't claim him, so we'll take the whole business."
- NANarrator
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So here's the way it works. Now we go to (clears throat) our consigliere, the consigliere of the Bonanos, right? A guy by the name of Bobby Badheart. You know why they called him Bobby Badheart?
- NANarrator
'Cause he had a bad heart?
- JPJoe Pistone
(laughs) Had a bad heart.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- JPJoe Pistone
Easy, right? (laughs) .
- NANarrator
(laughs) .
- JPJoe Pistone
So he goes (clears throat) and, uh, B- Bobby Badheart now has to call Chicago, right? And tell Chicago that, "Hey, we got a guy that's been with us for 10 years. He's settled now in Milwaukee. He's been in Milwaukee for a couple years, and he," (clears throat) , "wants to go into the business and he has machines and everything and we'd like to have a sit down with Balistreri, the boss of Milwaukee." Okay. Chicago now calls Balistreri's consigliere and relates the whole story to them. So now we gotta wait and see if he wants to have the sit down. Um, a week or so goes by and Chicago calls back and said, "Okay. He'll sit ... He'll have a meet with you guys." (Clears throat) "And who's coming out?" "Um, it'll be Lefty Ruggiero and Donnie Brasco." Now Lefty's a made guy, so, you know.
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- JPJoe Pistone
Uh, so they say, "Okay."
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- JPJoe Pistone
"Come on out. Check into this hotel and wait for a phone call." All right, so me and Lefty fly out, check into this hotel and, uh, we wait about three or four days, just hanging around the hotel. We can't go anywhere because we, we can't miss the phone call. So we get the phone call and he says, "Okay. Come to, uh, Snug's Restaurant," such and such a day, such and such a time. It's, it's Balistreri's restaurant. He owns a hotel and it's a restaurant in his hotel. So me, Lefty (clears throat) , and Tony, the other undercover, we go there. And now if, if you know the mob joke, you, you don't get to sit down with a boss unless you're another boss. You know what I mean? Guys, made guys that are just made guys in other families don't get to sit down with a boss. So now (clears throat) who's there is, is Balistreri the boss, his underboss, his consigliere, and his two sons, who are both lawyers, right? So we have a big spread where he ... And then, "Why do you wanna be here?" "Well, you know, Tony's been with us." This ... Now L- Lefty's doing all the talking 'cause he's the made guy. "Tony's been with us for 10 years, you know? Him and, him and Donnie. Uh, they did a lot of, uh, art theft together and stuff and they've all been, they've both been with us. Uh, and Tony, Tony thought he, you know," (clears throat) "he could get the be- he can get the, um, uh, business going with, with the machines and stuff." So after this whole dinner s- probably about five or six hours, they said, "Okay, we'll get back to you." All right. So a couple of days later, they called. "Why don't you have dinner at my house?" The fucking boss is inviting us to dinner at his house? It doesn't happen, if you know the, the world of the mafia. Gives us the address (clears throat) , me, Lefty, and Tony, and Lefty's like, "Y- y-" Y- you gotta know wiseguys, right? Lefty's like, "We're going to the dinner at a mob boss's house, at his house." He's like, you know ... I mean, we know it's a big deal, but-
- NANarrator
(laughs) .
- JPJoe Pistone
... to a wiseguy it's a big fucking deal too. So we go to his house and he's right on the lake. He has a...... big, big table, you know, like you see in the movies, and got the maids, uh, serving us. And he said, "Okay." He said, uh, "We'll go in partners. We're be 50/50 partners. Tony does all the work. You know, we'll tell you where to go to, uh, to put your machines in. They'll take your machines." So now, what did we just do? We just married two mafia families together, Bonanos and the Balistreri's through Chicago, at first, marrying two mafia families to do business together. All right? Me and Lefty go back to New York. Everything's going good. Uh, Tony's meeting with the sons 'cause that's who he said, "You meet with my sons." All right? Uh, after a few months, nothing. They stopped meeting with him. Don't know why. They won't take his calls. Nothing. Uh, so I tell, I said, "Lefty, they, they don't... They're not responding." "What do you mean, they're not responding?" I said, "They're not taking his calls anymore." He said, "Well, w- what did he do? Try to, you know..." I said, "Tony..." I said, "Lefty, this guy's not like that." Make a long story short, Tony had been a cop in a city outside of Milwaukee, after he got out of the Marine Corps, before he went into the Bureau, and somehow they found out.
- NANarrator
Ooh.
- JPJoe Pistone
There was a leak somewhere, but they don't, they don't tell... W- we find this out later that this is how they... They don't tell this to Lefty, which saved my ass 'cause I, I vouched for Tony.
- NANarrator
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
All right? So we're trying to get in touch with Chicago. Chicago's not, you know, Chicago said, "Hey, we don't know why they, why they stopped... You know, we don't have any idea." So that goes... Now, that's (laughs) I got that hanging on me, right?
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- JPJoe Pistone
So Left- Lefty sends me to, to Milwaukee, go, you know, go find out, uh, go search for this guy and blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I come up with a story. Left, you know, "I found his car. It was in the parking lot. I mean, it was in the, uh, parking lot of the, uh, airport. Uh, then when I went back, it was gone. Uh, so I go and I... They said, 'Oh, the cops towed it.' You know, and it's all bullshit, of course, but I gotta cover, you know, what happened to this guy. So now we gotta go tell Mike Sibella, our captain, 'cause, you know, our money source dried up. So we go sit down (laughs) with Mike. This is hard to believe, but... And he's ripping, right? Y- you know what m- my punishment was?
- NANarrator
What?
- JPJoe Pistone
I couldn't go to the Christmas party. (laughs)
- NANarrator
(laughs) That's it?
- JPJoe Pistone
That's it. I mean, he was, he was ripped, but he banned me from the Christmas party.
- NANarrator
Because you introduced him to the cop.
- 1:00:35 – 1:23:31
Internal Bonanno upheaval: Galante killed, Sonny Black rises, and a near-hit involvement
- JPJoe Pistone
Uh, so, um-... so I- I- I kind of, uh, squared things a- squared things ar- around with him and, because I, you know... Um, and Mike. So now what happens is that, um, uh, at the time, Carmine Galante was the boss of the Bonannos, all right? And, uh, they kill Galante, they whack him, right? 'Cause there's- there's kind of a beef within the family and- and, uh, one side didn't like Galante so they- they whack him. Mike Sabella now was associated with Galante, so they tell Mike, "Mike, either step down or we're gonna- we're gonna whack you too." So he gives up his captainship and just becomes a regular soldier again, right? So one of the, uh, originators, when I say originators, uh, instigators, whatever, uh, was a guy by the name of Sonny Black Napolitano. He was out in Brooklyn. So they put me and... Remember, we were with Mike Sabella, so they put me and Lefty now with, under Sonny Black. They make, Sonny Black, uh, becomes a captain. They put me and Lefty under Sonny Black out in Brooklyn. So that's who we report to every day. And what you, you know, you have to- you have to check in with your captain every day, so every day, um, me and Lefty would report out the- uh, the Motion Lounge. Uh, it was on Gramercy Street in Brooklyn 'cause he's- he's, Sonny's our new captain. Uh, so, uh, and- and again, you know, the- the intelligence information I'm gathering is like no other that anybody else can get because, you know, informants aren't gonna give you all this stuff. And I'm- I'm meeting different people. Again, I'm meeting people from, uh, different families through these guys. So I'm rocking out there in- in, uh, in Brooklyn, uh, under Sonny Black and I get another call, uh, they wanna, the headquarters wants to talk to you. About what? Well, we got an undercover operation going in Tampa, Florida. Yeah? And we wanna see if you can bring your Bonannos in. I says, "Hey, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I just went through this in Milwaukee." Well, supervisor wants to talk to you. I knew the supervisor, supervisor's a good guy. Uh, so I call him, I said, "Tony, what's up?" He says, "We got a nightclub and, um, it's pretty, you know, it's pretty good but we can't get into Santo Trafficante and maybe, you know, maybe you can do the same thing you did in Milwaukee." I said, "I don't know, man." I said, "If I do it, number one, who's the undercovers?" (laughs) 'Cause they had two-
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- JPJoe Pistone
... undercovers running the nightclub and they said, "Uh, well, one of them is, uh, an agent by the name of Samari Steve." And I said, "Okay." I said, "He's, I know Steve, I did undercover work with him too." I said, "I got no problem with Steve" and they gave me the other guy. The other guy I knew but I didn't, I never worked with him. I said, "But as long as Steve is- is involved, I'll see what I can do but I don't know how long it's gonna take so you gotta just let me think about this, all right? 'Cause I don't wanna come up, you know, I'm not coming up with a story, hey, I- I got a call from a guy that I used to fight and thieve with."
- NANarrator
Right, right, right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So I figure, okay, after a while, I... Okay, here's what we'll do. We used to go to Miami a lot. When I say we, I'm talking about me, Lefty, the wise guys. We'd fly to Miami for a- a long weekend. We had a hotel down there that, uh, put us on down the arm, right? Give us the suites and stuff and stay for the weekend. So I says, "Okay, here's what we'll do. The next time we go to Miami, right, you guys go down there and, uh, we're- we'll, whenever we go to a restaurant, I'll let you know what restaurant we're gonna go to and you guys just happen to be in the restaurant and you- you..." Uh, S- uh, S- Steve Samari, who was going by Chico, I said, "Chico just happens to notice me and comes over to the table and, 'Hey, Donnie, how you been?'" So it's like a bump, right? It's not like-
- NANarrator
Right, right, right, right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So that's what we did. So we're out at this restaurant in-... uh, we set that deal up and Chico comes over and, "Donnie, hey, I haven't seen you in years. How you doing?" "I'm good. What are you doing down here?" "Well, we got a nightclub." "You got a nightclub? Where?" "It's, uh, outside of Tampa, up in Tampa, Florida." "No kidding. How long you been down there?" "Uh, I don't know, three, four years. You know, what are you doing?" "Nothing, it's a nice club. Why don't you come by?" Now that, you know, again, he was talking about a nightclub and, you know, so ev- everything is, is dollar signs. So I said, "Lefty, you wanna take a ride up one day?" He said, "Yeah." So when they leave, he says, "You know these guys?" I said, "Well, I know Chico." I said, "I don't know the other guy." I said, "But you know, Chico, he's, he was a good, he was a good thief, you know." I said, "I haven't seen him in a while. I haven't seen him in, like, maybe five years, but he's always was, you know, he was always a good thief." So, uh, he said, "All right." He said, "Let's take a ride up." So we take a ride up, and it's a nice, n- nice nightclub. It's on, like, five acres. They got tennis courts. We hang out, lot of, lot of business, you know. Uh, it was open from, uh, I don't know, 9:00 to all... It was one of, you know, open all night. So he said, "Nice place." He said, uh, "We have to tell Sonny about it when we go back to, when we go back to Brooklyn." Okay, so we go back to Brooklyn and, uh, tell Sonny about it. Now, you know, now I'm, like, in my fourth year (laughs) with these guys.
- NANarrator
Wow.
- JPJoe Pistone
So, uh, we go back to Brooklyn and, uh, tell Sonny, uh, uh, Lefty. "Hey, uh, we ran into one of Donnie's old friends. Boy, they got a nice club there." "Oh, yeah? Well, maybe we'll go down and see it." So we go down and they see a lot of potential, uh, but now we, they can't operate anything illegal because Santo Trafficante owns Florida.
- NANarrator
Mm.
- JPJoe Pistone
So now we gotta go through the same routine, all right? The consigliere has to call Trafficante's guy and say, "Hey, we got, you know, uh, one of our guys has a club down there who has been with us for..." You know, now Chico has been, had been, had to be with the Bonannos again for five, six years. (coughs) Excuse me. So we go through that same routine, and, uh, finally, uh, you know, that... This takes a while. It's not, like, overnight. So we go through the routine and he says okay. His guy says, "All right, uh, Santo will meet you at such and such a hotel on such and such a day." Get to meet another fucking boss up at Florida. Me and Sonny meet him. We actually... Oh, no, the first time we met him was at, at a restaurant in, uh, uh, right outside of Tampa, that, uh, Greek fishing village. Um, now I'm drawing a blank, but at any rate, we meet him in a restaurant and, uh, actually it was Pappas' Restaurant. That was the name of it. And, uh, Sonny had never met him before, but, you know, they go through all the niceties. And, uh, S- Sonny tells him, "You know, we got a nightclub and we wanna start running gambling out of it." You know, so he says, "Okay, I'll, I'll meet you. I'll come up and look at it. I'll meet you." So I, I don't know if we met him the next week or the next couple weeks. We meet him again. Now this time, it's in a hotel room. Uh, he comes to Sonny's hotel room, uh, and, uh, sets everything up, right? Forms the marriage. Again, not, this is the second time we've married two fucking mafia families together. So he, uh, he said, "All right." He said, "You wanna do a casino night?" "Yeah." He said, "I'm gonna send my two guys up." "Okay." Couple days later, two guys come up from Miami, card sharks. I sat in the hotel with these room guys, uh, Joe, and they were marking all the decks of cards. I could not... After they get done, I had no idea how they marked these cards. They were for blackjack and stuff, right? Had craps tables. The dice were, (laughs) dice were fixed. I mean, it was like... (laughs) Everything was, you know... So we set the club up, um, and, uh, uh, we're advertising a casino night for the Veterans of Foreign War. We even had a certificate and everything, right?... you know, we're paying off somebody in the sheriff's department to protect us. Well, we got the- the game going and, uh, doing pretty good, doing pretty good. And, uh, place is jammed. So what happens is that, uh, all of a sudden there's a knock on the door. One of the doormen slides in. He comes to me, he says, "Donnie," he says, "A bunch of sheriff's deputies outside."
- JRJoe Rogan
Ugh.
- JPJoe Pistone
Whoa. So right away, I get on the phone. I can't get- (laughs) I can't get our contact in the sheriff's department, he's not answering his phone, and that we had just paid him that day. All right? So (clears throat) I said, "All right, clear all the money off the tables." So we get all the money off the tables and put chips back on the tables. Uh, I said, "All right, let them in." Because we had the- we had the certificate, we had everything. And what we had done was every so often we'd collect the money and we'd stash it in the furnace room. All right? There was a lot of money stashed. What we had was an old-time one-armed bandit. All right? That thing had to be 100 (laughs) years old. Nobody ever put money in it. It was just there. So they- they come in and they s- they- they don't see any money. One of the- one of the deputies puts a, uh, I don't know, nickel, dime, pulls the handle and- what do you think happens? He fucking wins. (laughs) You're running a gambling operation. Said, "Nobody's ever played that thing." Right? Well, they wrecked the joint. They wrecked it. We all get arrested. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why did- why did you get arrested? 'Cause it... I don't understand.
- JPJoe Pistone
It was a gambling charge.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So they arrest us.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, because... But why because of the one-armed bandit?
- JPJoe Pistone
Because th- th- they won and they said that that's- that was gambling.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JPJoe Pistone
(laughs) That was gambling. Nobody even knew there was any money in it or anything. It was just there as decoration.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, boy.
- JPJoe Pistone
You know, it was- it was an antique.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they just used it as an excuse?
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah, just used it as an excuse because we were the- we were the- the mafia guineas (laughs) from- from New York.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
That's what we were, right? So they throw us in the can and, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Just for the one-armed bandit?
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They never found the money?
- 1:23:31 – 1:33:07
Almost made: opening the books, shutting the case, and what it does to a person
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah. So (clears throat) now, you know, now with the war going on, the bureau decides that, uh, "Oh, we gotta, we gotta shut the operation down." Uh, so those hits took place on May 5th. So (clears throat) and prior to that, I had a sit down with Sonny Black and he said, "Donnie," he said, uh, "The books on the, the books on the mafia are opening up in, in December." He said, "And I already proposed you for membership into the Bonanno family, so you're gonna, you're gonna get inducted into the family in December." He said ... So I congratulated him, thanked him, kissed him on both cheeks, you know. Um ...
- NANarrator
So you were gonna be a made guy?
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah, I was gonna be a made guy. Yeah.
- NANarrator
How attractive is that life when you're in it?
- JPJoe Pistone
Oh, forget it. (laughs)
- NANarrator
Must be so much fun.
- JPJoe Pistone
(laughs) Yeah. Part-
- NANarrator
It's sort of the problem, right?
- JPJoe Pistone
So ... No. Waking up every day to think, "Is today the, the day I go to jail or today I get whacked?" No, I didn't ... Uh, Joe, I didn't find it that fucking attractive.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- JPJoe Pistone
Uh-uh. Uh-uh. Believe me. I mean, it's all right, they flash the cash, you know. Uh, you walk into a restaurant, they know who you are. You know, you get the f- you get the f-
- JRJoe Rogan
... VIP treatment.
- JPJoe Pistone
You get the VIP treatment. You don't order off the menu. (laughs) You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JPJoe Pistone
Uh, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
So there's perks.
- JPJoe Pistone
There's those perks but, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Too scary.
- JPJoe Pistone
... I didn't wanna wake up every day saying, "Do I go to jail or do I get whacked today?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
That's, that's their mindset.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
It's, it's crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is crazy.
- JPJoe Pistone
It's crazy. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
But I've talked to guys in that life and they love it.
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah. Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what's crazy about it.
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah, yeah. They could... I, I know guys that, uh, became, uh, informants and, you know, uh, they wish they could go back. I said-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 1:33:07 – 1:42:05
Post-Donnie Brasco operations: Scotland Yard, triads, and commanding respect
- JPJoe Pistone
(clears throat) But I was lucky enough that, uh, after that case, I did, I did undercover work overseas. I did undercover work for Scotland Yard.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, really?
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What'd you do over there?
- JPJoe Pistone
(clears throat) I had one case (laughs) . And, uh, so, uh, they had two Scotland Yard, uh, detectives who I knew. I, I did a lot of work with their undercover unit. And, uh... So they were into, uh, the Chinese triads. And there's stuff I can't disclose, but th- they, they were, um, they were manufacturing credit cards. And I won't, I won't say which, which companies. Uh, and you can bang them out for, like, $50,000 before, before they were discovered 'cause they had, they had the numbers.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I knew a guy who did that.
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah, they had the legit numbers.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JPJoe Pistone
(clears throat) So-
- JRJoe Rogan
That was back when they had, like, the carbons, right?
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Get it off the carbon.
- JPJoe Pistone
So Scot- so Scotland Yard was, was trying to get to, to the location in another country, right? Where they were actually, everything was going down. So they were meeting with the number two triad in London. So (clears throat) they said, "Hey, look. Our guy from New York, the mafia guy from New York who's the money man, wants us to have a sit-down with you." I says, "Okay." So I fly over to London, and I knew the Scotland Yard guys 'cause I had done other stuff with them. So they introduced me to the, uh, supervisor of the Serious Crime Squad. He was a guy that was, uh, running, running this case. So I would break his chops. You know, you can't... You, you... They don't carry guns or anything, you know. Even the undercovers don't, they don't, they don't carry guns. So I, uh, I'm sitting down with them, and I said, "They, uh..." I said, "You know, I got my gun, but I didn't bring any bullets. You got any bullets?" (laughs) The guy goes ape shit. He said, "You can't car-" I said, "Now, calm down. I'm just breaking your chops, all right?" So then he says to me, "What are you wearing to this meeting?" I said, "I'm wearing slacks, sport coat, and a shirt." He said, "No, no, you gotta wear a suit." I said, "Why do I have to wear a suit?" He said, "Because all these triad guys wear suits all the time." I said, "What's that got to do with me?" He said, "No, no, you gotta wear a suit." I said, "Well, I don't have a suit." I said, "I'm telling you, I got slacks, a sport coat, a dress shirt, so that's what I'm wearing." So he turns to, (clears throat) he turns to the, uh, the undercover guy from Scotland Yard and turns around, opens his safe, pulls out money. He says, "Go buy him a suit." I said, "You're gonna buy me a suit?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, what do I do with the suit when I'm done with it?" He says, "You keep it." I said, "All right." So me and Graham, we go. I buy two suits, one for me and one for Graham, (laughs) right? So we go to the meeting and I'm wearing his suit. So it's me, (clears throat) the two Scotland Yard guy on- undercover guys, and the triad. So now he, before we go to the meeting, the supervisor told me, "Look, you can't insult this guy. You gotta be nice to him because he's the number two guy." So I says, "Hey, look." I said, "I don't tell you how to run your Serious Cri- Crime Squad. Don't tell me how to work undercover."I says, "Whatever you need, I'll get." I said, "But don't tell me how to do it." So he's all nervous. So we're in, in a, uh, resort. They, they, they rented a, uh, a suite, big suite in a resort. And they're next door, so they, they got the suite where we are, they, they got it wired, audio, video, right? So we go in and we're sitting there and we get through all the niceties with the, with the triad. So the guy keeps fucking interrupting me. So finally I says, "Hey, Chin," I said, "Why do your sentences always start in the fucking middle of mine?"
- NANarrator
Oy.
- JPJoe Pistone
And he looks at me. And you can hear it, there's dead silence, right? Then he says, "Oh, Mr. Joe." I was going by Joe Marino at the time. He said, "Oh, Mr. Joe, I apologize. I'm sorry, I'm sorry." Graham tells me, he says when you said that, he thought the supervisor was gonna have a heart attack.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- JPJoe Pistone
He said, "He just blew it. He just blew it. It, it's over." After that, the guy gave us everything, the location of w- of the factory, the, the whole megillah.
- NANarrator
Do you feel like you had to do that to have his respect?
- JPJoe Pistone
Of course. I mean-
- NANarrator
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
... I'm a mob guy. What do I know about the triads?
- NANarrator
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
You know what I mean?
- NANarrator
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
So if I would've let him kept stepping on me-
- NANarrator
Right.
- JPJoe Pistone
... he's gonna-
- NANarrator
That would've been out of character.
- JPJoe Pistone
Yeah.
- NANarrator
Right.
Episode duration: 2:20:43
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