Joe Rogan Experience #2357 - Sarko Gergerian

1. 0:00 – 2:11

   Meeting via Paul Stamets & safety tensions at Psychedelic Science conferences

   1. SGSarko Gergerian0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. NANarrator0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      What's up, Sark? How are you?

   5. SGSarko Gergerian0:13

      Hey. (laughs) How are you, Joe?

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Good to see you.

   7. SGSarko Gergerian0:16

      Oh, it's great to see you. It's great to be here, man.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      How did you, uh, meet Paul? S- so Paul Stamets-

   9. SGSarko Gergerian0:21

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       ... introduced me to you.

   11. SGSarko Gergerian0:22

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:22

       So, how'd you meet Paul?

   13. SGSarko Gergerian0:23

       Yeah. Um, so I was aware of Paul for quite some time. Um, and this past Psychedelic Science, um, I was shadowing, uh, people and, uh, work- working to help the people that went to the conference feel safe, just because of the, like, the, the nature of the, uh, environment that, that, that we're in now.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       In what way?

   15. SGSarko Gergerian0:44

       Um, you know, like, so Psychedelic Science had, um, a lot of, uh, Jewish practitioners. Uh, they had invited Palestinian practitioners in, there was Arab practitioners there. So, there was a lot of, um, um, education around sensitive topics happening. You know, and, um, I was invited in, uh, just to be available to help people feel secure.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       What were they worried about?

   17. SGSarko Gergerian1:08

       Um, yeah, uh, a- any protests building up, um-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       Just because there was Jewish people and Palestinian people?

   19. SGSarko Gergerian1:15

       Well, you know, the nature of the environment, right? There's like, wars going on across the world.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Right, but this is a psychedelic conference, right?

   21. SGSarko Gergerian1:20

       This is a psychedelic conference. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       And they're worried about protests breaking out at psychedelic conferences?

   23. SGSarko Gergerian1:26

       Possible protests, possible-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       Hmm.

   25. SGSarko Gergerian1:28

       ... people getting overwhelmed with emotion. Um-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       Hmm.

   27. SGSarko Gergerian1:31

       You know, 'cause in Psychedelic Science 2023, there was a situation where when Dick- Rick Doblin was on stage, um, a group came in and disrupted his presentation, and they were allowed on stage to speak.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       Oh boy.

   29. SGSarko Gergerian1:44

       Right? But that's a type of disruption, right?

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:46

       Yeah.
2. 2:11 – 3:00

   A cop, a therapist, and a first-of-its-kind religious exemption for entheogens

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:11

      Why don't you tell everybody what your background is?

   2. SGSarko Gergerian2:13

      Sure, sure. Um, so I am currently a law enforcement professional at the rank of lieutenant, um, out of Massachusetts. Um, I've been in law en-

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:23

      You can tell by the accent.

   4. SGSarko Gergerian2:24

      (laughs) I mean, my accent's gonna kick in in, uh, on-

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:28

      (laughs)

   6. SGSarko Gergerian2:28

      ... and off, on and off through this whole discussion.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:29

      Couple beers in, you really go.

   8. SGSarko Gergerian2:31

      Right, right? Yeah, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:31

      Right?

   10. SGSarko Gergerian2:31

       Absolutely, absolutely. So, that's been about 15 years. Um, I'm also a therapist, a trained psychedelic-assisted therapist, and, um, I, I believe, a lot of people believe I'm the first law enforcement professional who, uh, who got a religious exemption at their place of work to access entheogens.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:52

       So, how did your journey from being a law enforcement professional to someone who's involved in psychedelics, how'd that take place?

3. 3:00 – 5:06

   From religion & philosophy studies to witnessing MDMA reshape club culture

   1. SGSarko Gergerian3:00

      Okay. Yeah, yeah. I think I'm gonna have to go a little bit further back-

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:04

      Oh, sure.

   3. SGSarko Gergerian3:04

      ... for that, sure. So, um, I went to a little high school in Boston, Massachusetts, uh, Newman Prep. And when I graduated there, I was luckily accepted into Northeastern University. So, I go into Northeastern University in my 20s, um, and they ask you, "What do you want to major in?" Right? And who knows what they want to major in at that age? I was like, "Let's study psychology." Right? Get to know myself, figure things out. Such a behavioral program, um, what I mean by that is rats pressing levers, observable stuff. Uh, I wasn't getting what I was looking for, so I take a philosophy class, I take a religion class. Eventually, I take so many of those classes, I graduate with an undergraduate degree in religion and philosophy, and a huge minor in psychology. Right? So, I'm a seeker. At that time as well, uh, Northeastern is a co-op school, so you go to school for six months, you work for six months. I was able to convince my, uh, co-op advisor to let me be a security guard in the nightclub industry in Boston for my co-op for school. Okay? So, five-year program, I'm studying religion and I'm working as a security guard in the '90s, in the nightclub scene in Boston. Um, I have a front row seat when ecstasy hits the scene.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:30

      Mm.

   5. SGSarko Gergerian4:30

      Right? I start working when it's high-test stimulants and alcohol, and I'm there continuing to work when the scene gets introduced to ecstasy, MDMA. I not only get to see how it affects people, but it affect the whole culture. The people at the clubs are no longer looking at each other like, "Who are you and what do you want?" They're saying hi and smiling. They're high-fiving each other when they meet up. They're hugging each other. I had that in my head in my 20s. Okay?

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:06

      Hmm.

4. 5:06 – 7:53

   The turning point: Rick Doblin’s MDMA/PTSD presentation at the Chiefs of Police conference

   1. SGSarko Gergerian5:06

      So, I become a cop in my 30s. I meet this police chief. He notices that I think a little differently, I see things a little differently, my background's a little different than your typical officer. He starts taking me to the International Association of Chiefs of Police conference every year. This is a really important point. The IACP. It's a really serious, huge international conference with upper-level, chief executive-level officers there. I go one year when Rick Doblin's there in Florida. He's presenting on phase two clinical trials, the results for MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, its efficacy against treatment-resistant severe PTSD. I can't believe it. Actually, I've shared this story before. Uh, at the moment that he was gonna present-... to the left was Rick Doblin, and to the right was Donald Trump.

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:05

      (laughs)

   3. SGSarko Gergerian6:06

      I'm not making this up.

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:07

      Wow.

   5. SGSarko Gergerian6:08

      All right, so I go left, I sit in the front row and the room that they gave him, this huge room, has 10 people in it 'cause everybody's, everybody went right. 67% of people with treatment-resistant, severe PTSD had their PTSD pushed into sustained remission. Sustained remission.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:31

      From how many experiences?

   7. SGSarko Gergerian6:33

      I think the way it was set up was like two or three. You know there's a model to the framework; preparation, experience, space, experience, space, experience, and then integration.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:43

      And this is all done through MAPS, so it's all done in a clinical environment.

   9. SGSarko Gergerian6:47

      Yes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:48

       Very controlled.

   11. SGSarko Gergerian6:49

       Very controlled. Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies. Rick's presenting there. I'm in the front row, I'm shaking. I jump on stage, I beeline it to him, I introduce myself and I say, "I have to help." He says, "Why don't you tell me some stuff about who you are first?" (laughs) You know what I mean?

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:07

       Right.

   13. SGSarko Gergerian7:07

       Like, there's this guy in front of me shaking his, um, shaking his hand and saying, "I have to help with this." And he finds out I'm a therapist too, cop and therapist. And he says, "The best way to help is to become a psychedelic-assisted therapist." What? What's that?

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:23

       You'd never heard of anything like that?

   15. SGSarko Gergerian7:24

       Never heard of any of that. Ne-

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:26

       What year was this again?

   17. SGSarko Gergerian7:28

       Man, it must be five years ago, more, mo- maybe more than that at this point. Just working from memory. It was Orlando, Florida, IACP conference. Yeah. You, you said something really important, Joe. Psychedelic-assisted therapist. What? What? Medicalizing a Schedule I substance. What? You know?

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:52

       Right.

5. 7:53 – 9:18

   MAPS training, a filmed ‘mystical experience,’ and the roadblock at the FDA

   1. SGSarko Gergerian7:53

      How, how is this even possible? But the story gets even more interesting. He gives me his card and he says, "Contact me." All right. I'm like, "What the heck is going on here?" At this point I'm already telling my current, my retired chief what's going on, I'm meeting these people. And MAPS gets me into one of the first MDMA-assisted therapist trainings, a cohort of people that were gonna ... that they trained on how to do this methodology with people. So you gotta know what's going on, right? It's a, it's a ... I mean, when someone's on MDMA, they're, uh, you know, they're different and you gotta hold that. You gotta hold that. But not only did they do that, MAPS contacts me and says, "We might be able to get you into a federally sanctioned research protocol as a healthy normal..." (laughs) 'Cause I'm an example of a healthy normal.

   2. JRJoe Rogan8:51

      (laughs)

   3. SGSarko Gergerian8:52

      All right? Where you're gonna be able to experience MDMA, 'cause they think that it's important for the therapists to know what MDMA does. So I, I mean, really? I, I, I, I go back to my police chief and I say, "Chief, I'm not only gonna be able to be trained as an MDMA-assisted therapist to help people with PTSD," 'cause it matters to me, right? What are cops doing to themselves?

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:18

      Right.

6. 9:18 – 21:20

   First-responder trauma, suicide, and the ‘muzzle’ inside law enforcement culture

   1. SGSarko Gergerian9:18

      They're blowing their heads off.

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:20

      Right.

   3. SGSarko Gergerian9:20

      Right? The suicide rate in cops is two to three times higher than the rate in civilians. More cops are dying by suicide, by the barrel of their own guns, um, then attack on the street. Right? The way the media is portraying everything, that, that, that's not getting out there.

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:41

      Right.

   5. SGSarko Gergerian9:41

      Right? So MDMA can help with that. Uh, I'd say we're in an epidemic of suicide in first responders, if, if that's the numbers. No?

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:55

      Yeah, for sure.

   7. SGSarko Gergerian9:56

      Right?

   8. JRJoe Rogan9:57

      Yeah.

   9. SGSarko Gergerian9:58

      And, and, and, and we've seen ... Joe, you've seen this, you've had guests on that talk about this, you've seen what the government allows when we're in an epidemic.

   10. JRJoe Rogan10:07

       Yeah, radical measures.

   11. SGSarko Gergerian10:09

       Radical measures. Not when it comes to compounds on Schedule I. Why?

   12. JRJoe Rogan10:15

       Well, 'cause it's federally Scheduled I. It's s- supposed to have no medical use whatsoever-

   13. SGSarko Gergerian10:21

       Ne-

   14. JRJoe Rogan10:21

       ... and the most dangerous and addictive of compounds.

   15. SGSarko Gergerian10:24

       That's right. May I-

   16. JRJoe Rogan10:27

       Yeah.

   17. SGSarko Gergerian10:27

       ... say something about that? It's a lie.

   18. JRJoe Rogan10:32

       Oh, it's certainly a lie.

   19. SGSarko Gergerian10:34

       Certainly a lie. And I need everybody to hear that, because men and women are dying and suffering needlessly at the level of an epidemic, and we're upholding a lie.

   20. JRJoe Rogan10:50

       I think the problem is politically it's very difficult to say what you're saying if you are anyone who is running for office or anyone who's currently seeking re-election. Right? Because it carries with this, this taboo-

   21. SGSarko Gergerian11:03

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan11:03

       ... this narrative that has existed since the 1970s that these are drugs that are ruining peoples' lives and they, it's a, it's gonna waste ... y- you're just gonna waste away, it's gonna ... you're just escaping reality, they're for weak people, they're for losers and addicts.

   23. SGSarko Gergerian11:22

       Uh, you couldn't have summed up, uh, the problem better. Nicely done.

   24. JRJoe Rogan11:27

       It's a public narrative that's out there, that unfortunately it's gonna take a long time to turn that battleship around.

   25. SGSarko Gergerian11:35

       So, I think what you're helping with is that. I am asking for the politicians who can't speak up to help make safety for those of us who either can or want to. I'm asking for their help, because I'm active law enforcement and I gotta tell you, Joe, we're muzzled. We're muzzled. Not only are our mouths shut-... but our hearts are put in a cage.

   26. JRJoe Rogan12:10

       Like how so? What do you mean?

   27. SGSarko Gergerian12:11

       We c- we c- uh, law enforcement aspiring to build a career in the system can't talk about this stuff. They not only can't talk about this stuff, they can't do this stuff. The, uh, i- i- i- so, so, (laughs) but what they can do is keep their mouth shut until they get to the point where they put a barrel of their gun in their mouth, or they can go buy a giant bottle of whiskey and drink themselves into depression, divorce, divorce, divorce, subclinical depression, anxiety, um, disordered eating, um, disordered sexual practices 'cause you know chronically activated autonomic nervous system, what does that cause? Fight, flight, freeze, fawn, hypersexuality, I dropped the last F. Right? What does that destroy?

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:09

       It destroys everything.

   29. SGSarko Gergerian13:09

       It destroys everything.

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:10

       Destroys your life.
7. 21:20 – 29:39

   Safe supply, prohibition logic, and why drug policy ‘hijacks’ policing

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:20

      And that this drug is also used by people who go to raves and wind up dying of heat exhaustion. You know, and people die because they- they hear they die of an overdose, but really they die of fentanyl poisoning because they're getting illegally sourced MDMA, which is probably not even really MDMA. A lot of times it's amphetamines and it's cut with fentanyl and there's a lot of other shit in it, and they wind up dying of an overdose.

   2. SGSarko Gergerian21:43

      That's right. Look, you bring up, um, you bring up something called the- the challenge of accessing safe supply.

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:50

      Yeah.

   4. SGSarko Gergerian21:51

      Right? Um, we need to- uh, people need to check their drugs, um, because- because the illicit supply is- isn't standardized. Um, it isn't safe. Um-

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:03

      Well, the real barrier is the fact that it's illegal.

   6. SGSarko Gergerian22:05

      That's right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:06

      And the problem is there is a demand. And so when you have a demand and then you make it illegal for people to access, then what happens is outlaws step in and you get criminal organizations who sell it and they don't give a fuck about you.

   8. SGSarko Gergerian22:20

      There it is.

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:21

      And they're used to killing people.

   10. SGSarko Gergerian22:22

       There it is.

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:23

       And they don't mind poisoning you and they don't mind if they're selling you something that's totally not what you're trying to get.

   12. SGSarko Gergerian22:29

       That's right. That's right. And you know where I learned about this?

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:32

       What?

   14. SGSarko Gergerian22:32

       I think you'll get a kick out of this.

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:33

       Yeah.

   16. SGSarko Gergerian22:34

       Uh, my promotional books, Studying to Become a Sergeant.

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:37

       Really?

   18. SGSarko Gergerian22:37

       Yeah. They actually have an entire section on what prohibition of alcohol caused.

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:42

       (laughs) And yet nobody applies that to other substances.

   20. SGSarko Gergerian22:47

       That's exactly where I was going.

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:48

       It's kind of funny.

   22. SGSarko Gergerian22:48

       It's kind- uh, uh, right. Tr-

   23. JRJoe Rogan22:50

       It's kind of funny.

   24. SGSarko Gergerian22:51

       Tragically funny.

   25. JRJoe Rogan22:51

       Tragically funny.

   26. SGSarko Gergerian22:52

       Right? And- and- and here's the muzzle part. Why aren't officers allowed to talk about this? Why aren't working officers allowed to talk about the problems with the war on drugs and how it's being waged? Why? In America? Really?

   27. JRJoe Rogan23:11

       When you say aren't allowed to, what ha- is- is it because it will hinder your career?

   28. SGSarko Gergerian23:16

       I think so.

   29. JRJoe Rogan23:17

       Yeah?

   30. SGSarko Gergerian23:17

       I think it's fear, I think it's programming. You mentioned the programming from the Nixon time till now, right?
8. 29:39 – 44:34

   Why cannabis was criminalized: Hearst, propaganda, and suppressing hemp as a commodity

   1. JRJoe Rogan29:39

      Yeah. I know. And it's not just a threat to pharma. I mean, I'm sure you were, you're aware of the original reason why it was outlawed.

   2. SGSarko Gergerian29:47

      Hit me.

   3. JRJoe Rogan29:48

      Okay.

   4. SGSarko Gergerian29:49

      Remind me. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan29:49

      William Randolph Hearst. So William Randolph Hearst ... So if you go back to the 1930s, when, uh, alcohol prohibition ended, you have a bunch of enforcement officers that aren't doing anything anymore. Then you have William Randolph Hearst, and then there's an, uh, an, a machine, an invention called the decorticator. And the decorticator allowed them to effectively process hemp fiber. Hemp was always a very difficult plant to process. And when Eli Whitney, uh ... Was it Eli Whitney created the cotton gin? Is that what it was?I think that sounds right. Um, when they created the cotton gin, now, eh, eh, cotton took over for hemp clothing. So, cannabis, hemp, you know, the term cannabis, that was what canvas was. So, all paintings, uh, the first draft of the Declaration of Independence was made on hemp paper. It's a superior textile. It's a superior paper. It's a commodity. You can take an acre of land that you're using to grow trees on, that you process into paper, and it'll take you years and years to regrow the trees in order to have the same amount of paper in that area. With hemp, it's instantaneous almost.

   6. SGSarko Gergerian31:08

      It's amazing.

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:08

      It grows very quickly and within a few months, you have these plants again. You harvest the stalks, you run it through the decorticator. So, in 19... whatever it was, 1930 something, cover of Popular Science magazine, "Hemp, the new billion-dollar crop," because of this invention. So, this invention was gonna ... uh, uh, uh, 'cause hemp makes superior clothes. I have a hemp jujitsu gi that I got from this company called Datsura. It's fucking indestructible. My cotton gis, they rip apart all the time, y- ... they're good for a year or two and then they tear and you gotta buy a new one, or you just show up at class with a fucked-up gi, which a lot of people do.

   8. SGSarko Gergerian31:46

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:46

      Hemp gis are way better. They're just far superior. Hemp paper, you grab it, you pull it, you tear it, you're like, "This is crazy." It's so much stronger than regular paper. It's a superior product. So, William Randolph Hearst, who didn't just own Hearst Publications, he didn't just own this news empire, he also owned paper mills. So, he also owned forests that he was growing trees in. He recognized this threat from this new industry. And so to combat that threat, he starts putting out propaganda pieces, and then they coined the term marijuana. So, marijuana was originally a term, a w- a slang term, for a wild Mexican tobacco. It had nothing to do with cannabis. Cannabis, which had been used for thousands of years, and hemp, which had been used for thousands of years. So, then they started printing these stories that Blacks and Mexicans were taking this new drug and raping white women, and then you have the ree- Reefer Madness films and all these propaganda films that show young people taking a smoke of marijuana and losing their mind. So, people act quickly and they pass laws, not even knowing that they're outlawing hemp, thinking that they're stopping this new drug, 'cause most people are unaware of it. Clearly, this is a time before the internet. Very difficult to access information and understand exactly what's going on.

   10. SGSarko Gergerian33:09

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan33:09

       So, they hoodwinked the entire world. So, Harry Anslinger, William Randolph Hearst, they all conspired to stop a commodity, and that's what hemp was. It was a c- it had nothing to do with the psychoactive form of THC. It had everything to do with hemp as a commodity that was threatening to the-

   12. SGSarko Gergerian33:28

       Major threat.

   13. JRJoe Rogan33:28

       ... to the businesses.

   14. SGSarko Gergerian33:29

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan33:30

       Only just bus- and to this day, you can make hempcrete. It's a superior building material. It's flame-resistant. It's lighter, it's stronger, it lasts longer. You can build houses with it. You can make clothes with it. Hemp oil is, uh, uh, hemp seeds, uh, uh, they ... not only are they good for you, they contain all the amino acids. It's a superior protein source. It's like, hemp protein powder's fantastic for you. It's like, really good stuff in so many different ways and they put the kibosh on that in the 1930s. And that, 90 fucking years later, is still this, this anchor around our necks that we're carrying.

   16. SGSarko Gergerian34:14

       It's still in place.

   17. JRJoe Rogan34:15

       Yeah, one asshole-

   18. SGSarko Gergerian34:17

       That's right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan34:17

       ... one asshole in the 1930s wh- who didn't want to compete with hemp and had this incredible power because he owned the newspapers-

   20. SGSarko Gergerian34:25

       Yep.

   21. JRJoe Rogan34:25

       ... he started this all.

   22. SGSarko Gergerian34:26

       That's right. That's right. I'm tracking. I'm tracking.

   23. JRJoe Rogan34:28

       You ever seen that arti- ... uh, pull up that article, "Hemp, the new billion-dollar crop," 'cause it's wild to watch.

   24. SGSarko Gergerian34:33

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan34:34

       'Cause this machine, this decorticator, before that it was really b- ... it was brutal, backbreaking work to take the hemp fiber and break it down because it's such a durable plant. Like, if you ever pick up a hemp stalk, a hemp stalk that would ... this is a mammoth tusk, but ... this is heavy. But if you had a hemp stalk that was this size, it would be incredibly light, like balsa wood-

   26. SGSarko Gergerian35:00

       Mm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan35:00

       ... but hard like oak. It's, well, it's like an alien plant.

   28. SGSarko Gergerian35:04

       Yeah. It sounds am-

   29. JRJoe Rogan35:04

       It's different than-

   30. SGSarko Gergerian35:05

       ... it sounds amazing.
9. 44:34 – 1:00:40

   Medicine, spirituality, and a broader definition of healing (Western science + Indigenous wisdom)

   1. SGSarko Gergerian44:34

      We've been stripped of our power to define what medicine is.

   2. JRJoe Rogan44:38

      Yes.

   3. SGSarko Gergerian44:39

      Right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan44:40

      Yeah.

   5. SGSarko Gergerian44:40

      Have you heard people say, "Community is medicine."

   6. JRJoe Rogan44:44

      Yeah.

   7. SGSarko Gergerian44:44

      "Joy is medicine."

   8. JRJoe Rogan44:45

      Oh, yeah, for sure. It is.

   9. SGSarko Gergerian44:46

      Right?

   10. JRJoe Rogan44:47

       Yeah.

   11. SGSarko Gergerian44:47

       Well, ask a hardcore western science model, "Is that medicine?" And they'll go, "Well, you gotta show us the evidence."

   12. JRJoe Rogan44:55

       Yeah.

   13. SGSarko Gergerian44:55

       Right? I'll-

   14. JRJoe Rogan44:56

       Well, there is evidence that, like, loneliness is, like, worse than cigarette smoking-

   15. SGSarko Gergerian45:00

       That's right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan45:01

       ... in terms of, like, how long you live.

   17. SGSarko Gergerian45:03

       That's right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan45:04

       Yeah.

   19. SGSarko Gergerian45:04

       That's right. Well, we can show that, right, but is community medicine? I say it is.

   20. JRJoe Rogan45:08

       Yeah.

   21. SGSarko Gergerian45:09

       But this, um, the point I'm trying to make is, how did we lose the power to define what medicine is for ourselves?

   22. JRJoe Rogan45:16

       Yeah.

   23. SGSarko Gergerian45:16

       Right? Joy is medicine.

   24. JRJoe Rogan45:19

       Yeah.

   25. SGSarko Gergerian45:19

       Community is medicine. And there's, the right-

   26. JRJoe Rogan45:21

       Maybe the term medicine's the wrong term. Maybe, is good for you.

   27. SGSarko Gergerian45:24

       Sure. But-

   28. JRJoe Rogan45:26

       Yeah.

   29. SGSarko Gergerian45:26

       ... but, but, w- why define medicine in such a rigid way? Also, why only allow one methodology to create an evidence base for that medicine? Let me give you an example.

   30. JRJoe Rogan45:38

       Okay.
10. 1:00:40 – 1:46:22

    Ketamine, harm reduction, and everyday drug hypocrisies (caffeine, nicotine, Coca-Cola)

    1. SGSarko Gergerian1:00:40

       And, you know, um, um, I was able to access MDMA and, um, I had a numinous experience. I felt like I was surrounded by love. I was gifted a gratitude that was big enough to hold everything that went into who I am in the present moment. Let me explain that real quick. If I accept myself wholly, wholly, completely, I have to accept my light and dark aspect as well. I have to accept my traumas as well. I have to expect my lineage's history as well, in its entirety. I'm not saying something radical. There's been books written about this by smarter people than I. MDMA helped me access that, right? I've experienced ketamine.Ketamine, I say, was like a luscious massage of my soul. I felt like the energy of my being was traveling in and out of my body, and I had three energetic streams traveling with me: my martial arts instructor periodically, my wife, and God. On ketamine, it was unbelievable.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:01:46

       What, what do you mean th- streams, like in what way?

    3. SGSarko Gergerian1:01:48

       Energetic streams. So on ketamine, I felt like there was a bit of a disembodiment that occurred, right? And we can label what that disembodiment is. It's a, a disassociative anesthetic. People say it feels like their spirit, soul, or identity disconnected from their body. I had that happen. But the energy wasn't just one. I had remembrances of these three. I felt like I needed to give gratitude to God, I felt like the presence of my wife was with me, and my martial arts instructor as well, Doreen Cogliandro. And her energetic, their energetic streams were going in and out of my body, and I could remember such joyous thoughts associated to them. It was like a massage to my spirit, you know?

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:02:40

       Mm.

    5. SGSarko Gergerian1:02:40

       And the thoughts associated with that massage and that peace and that sense of safety was there. Ketamine lifts suicidality in minutes. It just became a medicine approved for depression. Why? That's weird. Why did that just happen? I don't know.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:02:59

       Well, it's been going on for quite a bit, right? I mean, I know people in Los Angeles were doing it a decade ago.

    7. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:05

       Well, here's the thing. Uh, let's, let's broaden that. How long were the people partying with it? Right?

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:03:11

       I don't know. I did... I knew of a guy who had a problem with it, he was a MMA fighter. He got addicted to ketamine. And, uh, I remember a friend of mine went to visit him in a rehab center and he was all fucked up. But that was the narrative, that he was doing ketamine. I was like, "Oh, he's doing a tranquilizer?" Like, this was, uh, 1990s, like-

    9. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:29

       Okay.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:03:30

        ... late 90s.

    11. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:31

        Okay.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:03:31

        And then-

    13. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:31

        Well, you can get addicted. You can-

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:03:33

        Ketamine is addictive?

    15. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:34

        Yeah, you can get-

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:03:35

        Physically?

    17. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:35

        You can get addicted to k- ketamine. Not like, like an opiate.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:03:39

        Is it a psychological addiction or is it a physical addiction?

    19. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:42

        The- there might be a combination. I don't wanna purport to speak about it scientifically too much, but I've heard there can be a compulsion-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:03:50

        Yeah.

    21. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:51

        ... to use it. And it can kind of, it can hurt your bladder if you go overboard.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:03:54

        I know a lot of people-

    23. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:55

        Right?

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:03:55

        ... in the Austin area use it recreationally. We actually had a girl go into a K hole at my club.

    25. SGSarko Gergerian1:04:00

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:04:01

        She was in the middle of the comedy club just... (imitates kettledrum) (laughs)

    27. SGSarko Gergerian1:04:03

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's full-

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:04:05

        Yeah.

    29. SGSarko Gergerian1:04:05

        ... disembodiment, right?

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:04:06

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:59:37