Joe Rogan Experience #2357 - Sarko Gergerian

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. SGSarko Gergerian0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. NANarrator0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      What's up, Sark? How are you?

   5. SGSarko Gergerian0:13

      Hey. (laughs) How are you, Joe?

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Good to see you.

   7. SGSarko Gergerian0:16

      Oh, it's great to see you. It's great to be here, man.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      How did you, uh, meet Paul? S- so Paul Stamets-

   9. SGSarko Gergerian0:21

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       ... introduced me to you.

   11. SGSarko Gergerian0:22

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:22

       So, how'd you meet Paul?

   13. SGSarko Gergerian0:23

       Yeah. Um, so I was aware of Paul for quite some time. Um, and this past Psychedelic Science, um, I was shadowing, uh, people and, uh, work- working to help the people that went to the conference feel safe, just because of the, like, the, the nature of the, uh, environment that, that, that we're in now.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       In what way?

   15. SGSarko Gergerian0:44

       Um, you know, like, so Psychedelic Science had, um, a lot of, uh, Jewish practitioners. Uh, they had invited Palestinian practitioners in, there was Arab practitioners there. So, there was a lot of, um, um, education around sensitive topics happening. You know, and, um, I was invited in, uh, just to be available to help people feel secure.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       What were they worried about?

   17. SGSarko Gergerian1:08

       Um, yeah, uh, a- any protests building up, um-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       Just because there was Jewish people and Palestinian people?

   19. SGSarko Gergerian1:15

       Well, you know, the nature of the environment, right? There's like, wars going on across the world.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Right, but this is a psychedelic conference, right?

   21. SGSarko Gergerian1:20

       This is a psychedelic conference. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       And they're worried about protests breaking out at psychedelic conferences?

   23. SGSarko Gergerian1:26

       Possible protests, possible-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       Hmm.

   25. SGSarko Gergerian1:28

       ... people getting overwhelmed with emotion. Um-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       Hmm.

   27. SGSarko Gergerian1:31

       You know, 'cause in Psychedelic Science 2023, there was a situation where when Dick- Rick Doblin was on stage, um, a group came in and disrupted his presentation, and they were allowed on stage to speak.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       Oh boy.

   29. SGSarko Gergerian1:44

       Right? But that's a type of disruption, right?

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:46

       Yeah.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   That's right. That's right.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      a few years back. It was n- then you've got the demoralization, you know, and the fact that these people, not only are they not appreciated, but then they've been all turned into villains.

   2. SGSarko Gergerian15:11

      That's right. That's right. Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:13

      It makes it worse.

   4. SGSarko Gergerian15:14

      Yeah. I work with some really caring young people, men and women. And, um, the whole defund the police movement was so hurtful. It was so hurtful. Um, it hurt me watching them have to come to work and see them take the 911 calls for service and show up and do their best following the rules to make sure that that family or that person is okay, and then come back and feel unappreciated and not understood, not understood.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:45

      Yeah.

   6. SGSarko Gergerian15:46

      You know?

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:47

      Yeah. They were used as political pawns.

   8. SGSarko Gergerian15:49

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:50

      And, uh, you know, openly, openly by politicians who are still in office. It's, it was pretty disgusting.

   10. SGSarko Gergerian15:57

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:57

       And just shortsighted and a, a complete lack of awareness of the difficulty of the job. 'Cause if you're around cops, if you know cops, like, it is an insane job. It's an insane job that you're, you're asking people, just regular people, to go out and do on a daily basis.

   12. SGSarko Gergerian16:15

       That's right. That's right. You don't know what's gonna happen. You don't know who you're interacting with. You don't know if it's gonna turn into a life or death situation. Um, I see people try to paint the job as a normal job, and it isn't.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:33

       (laughs)

   14. SGSarko Gergerian16:33

       And someone's gotta do it, right? Someone's gotta do it because it's inherently a part of human nature at times for confusion to come through, for misunderstanding that leads to violence to happen. Someone has to show up and handle that. It's not a normal job.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:55

       Yeah. So, from your first introduction to this idea of psychedelic therapy, how long before you actually experience it and how long before you actually help other people experience it?

   16. SGSarko Gergerian17:13

       Okay. So, um-

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:14

       Take us, take us through. So you, you, you find out about this. You bring it to the department.

   18. SGSarko Gergerian17:20

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:20

       Uh, what was that like?

   20. SGSarko Gergerian17:21

       Yeah. Yeah. So, it was very interesting. I mean, these were all ideas that weren't even on my radar until I met Rick at the Chiefs of Police Conference. They get on my radar, and they fire me up because this is what I want to do, right? Uh, because of my history, I'm compelled to step in between warring parties and get them to stop. Okay? And we can touch upon that if it fits into the conversation. Um, and then Maps is able to get me into this research protocol, and I'm able to get permission from my chief to experience MDMA. I have a m- I have a mystical experience. I have a mystical experience on film. Um, my, the segment when I'm, when... You can't make this up. When I take the blue pill, you know, Morpheus-

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:06

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SGSarko Gergerian18:06

       ... analogy there. Um-

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:08

       You don't wanna take the blue pill.

   24. SGSarko Gergerian18:09

       No.

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:09

       You wanna take the red one.

   26. SGSarko Gergerian18:10

       Is it the red one?

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:11

       Yeah, the red one's the one that lets you see reality.

   28. SGSarko Gergerian18:13

       Okay, so I'm flipping the colors.

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:14

       (laughs)

   30. SGSarko Gergerian18:15

       It's okay.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   It's amazing. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      officers that aren't doing anything anymore. Then you have William Randolph Hearst, and then there's an, uh, an, a machine, an invention called the decorticator. And the decorticator allowed them to effectively process hemp fiber. Hemp was always a very difficult plant to process. And when Eli Whitney, uh ... Was it Eli Whitney created the cotton gin? Is that what it was?I think that sounds right. Um, when they created the cotton gin, now, eh, eh, cotton took over for hemp clothing. So, cannabis, hemp, you know, the term cannabis, that was what canvas was. So, all paintings, uh, the first draft of the Declaration of Independence was made on hemp paper. It's a superior textile. It's a superior paper. It's a commodity. You can take an acre of land that you're using to grow trees on, that you process into paper, and it'll take you years and years to regrow the trees in order to have the same amount of paper in that area. With hemp, it's instantaneous almost.

   2. SGSarko Gergerian31:08

      It's amazing.

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:08

      It grows very quickly and within a few months, you have these plants again. You harvest the stalks, you run it through the decorticator. So, in 19... whatever it was, 1930 something, cover of Popular Science magazine, "Hemp, the new billion-dollar crop," because of this invention. So, this invention was gonna ... uh, uh, uh, 'cause hemp makes superior clothes. I have a hemp jujitsu gi that I got from this company called Datsura. It's fucking indestructible. My cotton gis, they rip apart all the time, y- ... they're good for a year or two and then they tear and you gotta buy a new one, or you just show up at class with a fucked-up gi, which a lot of people do.

   4. SGSarko Gergerian31:46

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:46

      Hemp gis are way better. They're just far superior. Hemp paper, you grab it, you pull it, you tear it, you're like, "This is crazy." It's so much stronger than regular paper. It's a superior product. So, William Randolph Hearst, who didn't just own Hearst Publications, he didn't just own this news empire, he also owned paper mills. So, he also owned forests that he was growing trees in. He recognized this threat from this new industry. And so to combat that threat, he starts putting out propaganda pieces, and then they coined the term marijuana. So, marijuana was originally a term, a w- a slang term, for a wild Mexican tobacco. It had nothing to do with cannabis. Cannabis, which had been used for thousands of years, and hemp, which had been used for thousands of years. So, then they started printing these stories that Blacks and Mexicans were taking this new drug and raping white women, and then you have the ree- Reefer Madness films and all these propaganda films that show young people taking a smoke of marijuana and losing their mind. So, people act quickly and they pass laws, not even knowing that they're outlawing hemp, thinking that they're stopping this new drug, 'cause most people are unaware of it. Clearly, this is a time before the internet. Very difficult to access information and understand exactly what's going on.

   6. SGSarko Gergerian33:09

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan33:09

      So, they hoodwinked the entire world. So, Harry Anslinger, William Randolph Hearst, they all conspired to stop a commodity, and that's what hemp was. It was a c- it had nothing to do with the psychoactive form of THC. It had everything to do with hemp as a commodity that was threatening to the-

   8. SGSarko Gergerian33:28

      Major threat.

   9. JRJoe Rogan33:28

      ... to the businesses.

   10. SGSarko Gergerian33:29

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan33:30

       Only just bus- and to this day, you can make hempcrete. It's a superior building material. It's flame-resistant. It's lighter, it's stronger, it lasts longer. You can build houses with it. You can make clothes with it. Hemp oil is, uh, uh, hemp seeds, uh, uh, they ... not only are they good for you, they contain all the amino acids. It's a superior protein source. It's like, hemp protein powder's fantastic for you. It's like, really good stuff in so many different ways and they put the kibosh on that in the 1930s. And that, 90 fucking years later, is still this, this anchor around our necks that we're carrying.

   12. SGSarko Gergerian34:14

       It's still in place.

   13. JRJoe Rogan34:15

       Yeah, one asshole-

   14. SGSarko Gergerian34:17

       That's right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan34:17

       ... one asshole in the 1930s wh- who didn't want to compete with hemp and had this incredible power because he owned the newspapers-

   16. SGSarko Gergerian34:25

       Yep.

   17. JRJoe Rogan34:25

       ... he started this all.

   18. SGSarko Gergerian34:26

       That's right. That's right. I'm tracking. I'm tracking.

   19. JRJoe Rogan34:28

       You ever seen that arti- ... uh, pull up that article, "Hemp, the new billion-dollar crop," 'cause it's wild to watch.

   20. SGSarko Gergerian34:33

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan34:34

       'Cause this machine, this decorticator, before that it was really b- ... it was brutal, backbreaking work to take the hemp fiber and break it down because it's such a durable plant. Like, if you ever pick up a hemp stalk, a hemp stalk that would ... this is a mammoth tusk, but ... this is heavy. But if you had a hemp stalk that was this size, it would be incredibly light, like balsa wood-

   22. SGSarko Gergerian35:00

       Mm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan35:00

       ... but hard like oak. It's, well, it's like an alien plant.

   24. SGSarko Gergerian35:04

       Yeah. It sounds am-

   25. JRJoe Rogan35:04

       It's different than-

   26. SGSarko Gergerian35:05

       ... it sounds amazing.

   27. JRJoe Rogan35:05

       ... everything else. So, here it is.

   28. SGSarko Gergerian35:08

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan35:08

       "The New Billion-Dollar Crop. American farmers are promised a new cash crop with an annual value of several hundred million dollars, all because of a machine that has been invented which can solve a problem more than 6,000 years old. It is hemp, a crop that will compete with other American products. Instead, it will displace imports of raw materials and manufactured products produced by underpaid ..." what does that read? "Coolie and peasant labor and will provide thousands of jobs for American workers throughout the land." So, that was the machine underneath it. That's the decorticator.

   30. SGSarko Gergerian35:44

       Yeah.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   That's right. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      smoking-

   2. SGSarko Gergerian45:00

      That's right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:01

      ... in terms of, like, how long you live.

   4. SGSarko Gergerian45:03

      That's right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:04

      Yeah.

   6. SGSarko Gergerian45:04

      That's right. Well, we can show that, right, but is community medicine? I say it is.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:08

      Yeah.

   8. SGSarko Gergerian45:09

      But this, um, the point I'm trying to make is, how did we lose the power to define what medicine is for ourselves?

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:16

      Yeah.

   10. SGSarko Gergerian45:16

       Right? Joy is medicine.

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:19

       Yeah.

   12. SGSarko Gergerian45:19

       Community is medicine. And there's, the right-

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:21

       Maybe the term medicine's the wrong term. Maybe, is good for you.

   14. SGSarko Gergerian45:24

       Sure. But-

   15. JRJoe Rogan45:26

       Yeah.

   16. SGSarko Gergerian45:26

       ... but, but, w- why define medicine in such a rigid way? Also, why only allow one methodology to create an evidence base for that medicine? Let me give you an example.

   17. JRJoe Rogan45:38

       Okay.

   18. SGSarko Gergerian45:38

       And this is Paul Stamets, I, I listened to him talk at Psychedelic Science 2025, where he said, "We should see the world through two eyes, western science and indigenous wisdom." Right?

   19. JRJoe Rogan45:50

       Yeah.

   20. SGSarko Gergerian45:50

       And, and they don't have to be attacking one another.

   21. JRJoe Rogan45:53

       Right.

   22. SGSarko Gergerian45:54

       Right? The time of extractionary capitalistic relationships with this living planet might have to be coming to an end. And what's gonna replace it? Reciprocity, stewardship, care, community.

   23. JRJoe Rogan46:12

       Yeah.

   24. SGSarko Gergerian46:13

       Right? These two eyes, they need to be in the same being. They need to-

   25. JRJoe Rogan46:17

       It just really makes you wonder, what would the world look like had they not placed that sweeping psychedelic act of 1970 and then imposed those standards on most of the rest of the world as well? What, what would the world look like? It would be radically different.

   26. SGSarko Gergerian46:32

       I believe that it would be radically different.

   27. JRJoe Rogan46:34

       Right. It was... Well, th- this is what they were scared of. The difference between the 1950s and the 1960s culturally is clear. It's evident in everything. It's evident in the music, it's evident in the artwork, the films. It's evident in the cars, the design of the automobiles. Like, everything changed, and it changed because the culture was accepting psychedelics. It was a big part of it. It was LSD and psilocybin and marijuana and all these different things that these people were experimenting with. And then out of that, you get Jimi Hendrix, you know? You get this w- wild new form of expression that was radically different than music that appeared before that.

   28. SGSarko Gergerian47:14

       That's right. That's right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan47:16

       And they were scared of that.

   30. SGSarko Gergerian47:16

       That's right. And you know, I just made a comment about my belief system to you.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   That's right. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      it is access to information. There's plenty of online documentaries about it now.

   2. SGSarko Gergerian1:00:04

      That's right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      Yeah.

   4. SGSarko Gergerian1:00:05

      That's right. And, you know, uh, Joe, I- I want to give credit to the courageous people who are the carriers of this knowledge and wisdom by experimenting, learning, realizing, right? This is the hero's journey, right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:17

      Yeah.

   6. SGSarko Gergerian1:00:18

      Going into the darkness, like, metaphorically and literally into the underground-

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:23

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SGSarko Gergerian1:00:24

      ... and coming back with the bounty, the realization, right?

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

      Yeah.

   10. SGSarko Gergerian1:00:27

       The gold and sharing it.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:29

       Yeah. And having the courage to share it.

   12. SGSarko Gergerian1:00:30

       That's a courageous act.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:32

       Well, especially if you're in a business like yourself, like law enforcement, you know, where it's like, that's a forbidden topic.

   14. SGSarko Gergerian1:00:38

       That's right. That's right. That's right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

       Yeah.

   16. SGSarko Gergerian1:00:40

       And, you know, um, um, I was able to access MDMA and, um, I had a numinous experience. I felt like I was surrounded by love. I was gifted a gratitude that was big enough to hold everything that went into who I am in the present moment. Let me explain that real quick. If I accept myself wholly, wholly, completely, I have to accept my light and dark aspect as well. I have to accept my traumas as well. I have to expect my lineage's history as well, in its entirety. I'm not saying something radical. There's been books written about this by smarter people than I. MDMA helped me access that, right? I've experienced ketamine.Ketamine, I say, was like a luscious massage of my soul. I felt like the energy of my being was traveling in and out of my body, and I had three energetic streams traveling with me: my martial arts instructor periodically, my wife, and God. On ketamine, it was unbelievable.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01:46

       What, what do you mean th- streams, like in what way?

   18. SGSarko Gergerian1:01:48

       Energetic streams. So on ketamine, I felt like there was a bit of a disembodiment that occurred, right? And we can label what that disembodiment is. It's a, a disassociative anesthetic. People say it feels like their spirit, soul, or identity disconnected from their body. I had that happen. But the energy wasn't just one. I had remembrances of these three. I felt like I needed to give gratitude to God, I felt like the presence of my wife was with me, and my martial arts instructor as well, Doreen Cogliandro. And her energetic, their energetic streams were going in and out of my body, and I could remember such joyous thoughts associated to them. It was like a massage to my spirit, you know?

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:02:40

       Mm.

   20. SGSarko Gergerian1:02:40

       And the thoughts associated with that massage and that peace and that sense of safety was there. Ketamine lifts suicidality in minutes. It just became a medicine approved for depression. Why? That's weird. Why did that just happen? I don't know.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:02:59

       Well, it's been going on for quite a bit, right? I mean, I know people in Los Angeles were doing it a decade ago.

   22. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:05

       Well, here's the thing. Uh, let's, let's broaden that. How long were the people partying with it? Right?

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:03:11

       I don't know. I did... I knew of a guy who had a problem with it, he was a MMA fighter. He got addicted to ketamine. And, uh, I remember a friend of mine went to visit him in a rehab center and he was all fucked up. But that was the narrative, that he was doing ketamine. I was like, "Oh, he's doing a tranquilizer?" Like, this was, uh, 1990s, like-

   24. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:29

       Okay.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:03:30

       ... late 90s.

   26. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:31

       Okay.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:03:31

       And then-

   28. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:31

       Well, you can get addicted. You can-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:03:33

       Ketamine is addictive?

   30. SGSarko Gergerian1:03:34

       Yeah, you can get-
6. 1:15:00 – 1:25:30

   Yeah, you do. …

   1. SGSarko Gergerian1:15:00

      you gotta, hmm, you gotta resist.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:02

      Yeah, you do.

   3. SGSarko Gergerian1:15:04

      You gotta resist.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:06

      You gotta resist.

   5. SGSarko Gergerian1:15:06

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:06

      But the problem is like, legalizing these things would cause a pr- a big problem. It'd be a big problem. I- if you just legalize them, there's a lot of people that, who would never try an illegal drug who would try a legal drug. You know? If you made heroin, cocaine, uh, you know, fill in the blank, all, all the different substances, psychedelic and other wise, if you made them all legal, you're gonna have a bunch of people that are gonna have problems with these things that wouldn't have problems with them normally. So there, it would be a period of time where there w- it would cause damage, and that would be really problematic for politicians, lawmakers, anybody who enforced these ideas. You know, there'd be blood is on your hands. It's like... but, th- this infantilization of human beings, like turning them into babies that need to be, need to be controlled by the state, that's the problem. And we're in this problem, and the only way to get out of that problem is to tear the fucking Band-Aid off. And-

   7. SGSarko Gergerian1:16:07

      I completely agree with you.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:16:08

      ... and I don't want to do cocaine. I've never done cocaine my whole life. I v- I saw... when I was a kid in high school, I saw a bunch of people that had cocaine problems and I was like, "I don't wanna have anything to do with that."

   9. SGSarko Gergerian1:16:17

      Right, right. But listen, you made that decision for yourself.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:16:21

       Yeah.

   11. SGSarko Gergerian1:16:21

       Right? And, um, and look, we know, we, we were just touching upon examples of people having a relationship with the coca plant without it causing an issue.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:16:28

       Yeah.

   13. SGSarko Gergerian1:16:29

       Right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:16:29

       I don't think it's that addictive when you're just chewing the leaves.

   15. SGSarko Gergerian1:16:32

       Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:16:33

       I think those people do it without much problems. There's also mate de coco, which is a tea that they make from the leaves.

   17. SGSarko Gergerian1:16:38

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, look, we're starting to talk about, um, we're using the word legalization and sa- saying there will be a problem with legal- legalization for a time being. Why don't we talk about decriminalization and regulation?

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:16:53

       But the problem is, even with decriminalization, what's the supply? Where are people getting it from?

   19. SGSarko Gergerian1:16:58

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:16:59

       If you can't sell it legally, then how, how do I know it's pure?

   21. SGSarko Gergerian1:17:02

       That's right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:17:03

       That's the real issue. The real issue with cocaine is probably not cocaine itself. The real issue is getting cocaine that's stepped on and cut, and cut a lot of times with fentanyl.

   23. SGSarko Gergerian1:17:15

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:17:15

       I mean, we all know people that have died from fentanyl o- overdoses. I know a bunch of people that have.

   25. SGSarko Gergerian1:17:19

       Yep. I, I've done follow-up on police calls to people who said to me directly, "I was trying to get coke, I got fentanyl and almost died."

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:17:28

       Yeah.

   27. SGSarko Gergerian1:17:28

       That's a tragedy.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:17:29

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SGSarko Gergerian1:17:30

       But, but, but, but Joe, you're jumping to this next, uh, idea that we should probably explore, which is called, um, safe supply.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:17:37

       Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:59:37