Joe Rogan Experience #2364 - Brandon Epstein

1. 0:00 – 2:30

   Medicine’s double-edged sword: breakthroughs vs profit incentives

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. BEBrandon Epstein0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      I was wondering how many episodes with guys you've had on who fall into the camp who had their YouTube channel deleted and were talking about, like, wellness. Like, doctors talking about COVID stuff.

   4. BEBrandon Epstein0:25

      There was a bunch of doctors that had their, their YouTube accounts deleted.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:28

      Really?

   6. BEBrandon Epstein0:28

      Yeah. It was a weird time, you know? It was a, it's a weird time. The, um, the world of medicine is interesting, because you've got so many positives, right? Like, people are healthier. They live longer today than they ever have been before. If you get certain diseases, they have cures for it that didn't exist before. But there's financial incentives involved in prescribing medications that maybe people don't fucking need, because they can make more money if more people take these drugs. And that's the problem. Like, there's ... We gotta separate the baby from the bathwater, and know what to throw out, right? And it's, you, you can't throw out medicine. Like, that's crazy. It's amazing.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:11

      Mm-hmm.

   8. BEBrandon Epstein1:11

      Like, what these pharmaceutical drug companies, in coordination with all these brilliant scientists, have created is the greatest medicine system the human race has ever known. At least, probably-

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:22

      As long as-

   10. BEBrandon Epstein1:22

       ... like, maybe the Mayans knew some shit.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:24

       Yeah, yeah.

   12. BEBrandon Epstein1:24

       Like, you know what I mean? Like, they, he-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       They were doing some magic back then.

   14. BEBrandon Epstein1:26

       Yeah. Maybe some, like, civilizations that collapsed because the Europeans gave them all fucking smallpox, ironically.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:33

       Mm-hmm.

   16. BEBrandon Epstein1:33

       Who knows what the Egyptians knew? You know, who knows what those people knew about health and about medicine? But what we know today is that there's incredible stuff that comes out of the pharmaceutical drug companies. But also, they fucking lie to you. They also, they'll publish fake studies. Or not st-... Fake studies. But they'll, they'll publish studies that they've engineered to be successful, even though they're not going to be. They'll hide data that shows that it causes side effects. They wanna make money. And it's not the people that are making the medicine, that's what's crazy. Like, the people that are making the medicine are fucking geniuses. It's the money people.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:10

       Mm-hmm. Of course.

   18. BEBrandon Epstein2:10

       It's always the money people, in everything. And that's the same thing with YouTube, and that's the same thing with everything. It's the money people. And there's, there's, uh, when, when you have a giant corporation, you have, like, all kinds of stuff going on. But the number one thing that's going on is everybody has to make more money every quarter.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BEBrandon Epstein2:28

       And that's where it gets nutty.

2. 2:30 – 3:12

   Shortcut culture and mindset parallels: comedy, fighters, and ambition

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:30

      Yeah. It does. And we also live in a culture that wants that, like, fast food experience, right?

   2. BEBrandon Epstein2:35

      Oh, yeah, man.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:35

      The shortcut. And so it's, we're so susceptible to it.

   4. BEBrandon Epstein2:39

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:39

      Right? For everything. For weight loss, to any issue you have.

   6. BEBrandon Epstein2:43

      We're experiencing it a little bit in the comedy community, because, uh, and this is, by the way, this is like a normal thing that happens to young comedians. They wanna be further than they are. Maybe they think they deserve more than they're getting. They think they deserve more shows, better spots on shows. And it, it does happen. And then there's also, you know, like, there's a competitive drive involved in it. So there's a little bit of delusion, a little bit of a competitive drive. It's very similar, I would imagine, to fighters.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:12

      Mm-hmm.

3. 3:12 – 4:59

   Sean Brady’s turnaround: rebuilding an ‘unbeatable’ identity after a loss

   1. BEBrandon Epstein3:12

      First of all, we should just tell everybody, Success Code. You're a mind coach.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:16

      Yes, sir.

   3. BEBrandon Epstein3:16

      You, uh, worked famously with Sean Brady-

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:19

      Yes.

   5. BEBrandon Epstein3:19

      ... who I love.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:20

      Yeah.

   7. BEBrandon Epstein3:20

      He's awesome.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:21

      He came on here and talked about it a little bit.

   9. BEBrandon Epstein3:22

      He's a fucking animal.

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:23

       Yeah. I love that guy.

   11. BEBrandon Epstein3:24

       That guy's, woo, he's fun. He's fun. And he's got, like, extra muscles on his back. I don't know what the fuck that guy does, but he looks like a turtle.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:31

       It's his tattoos coming to life.

   13. BEBrandon Epstein3:33

       (laughs) We were all talking about it the other day. We were like, "He looks like a turtle." Like, he's got like a shell on his back. It's just-

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:38

       Crazy.

   15. BEBrandon Epstein3:38

       ... just jacked muscle. Like, I know what that is. Like, when I see a guy like that, I'm like, "That guy will squeeze your fucking-"

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:43

       Uh-huh.

   17. BEBrandon Epstein3:44

       "... face into jello." (laughs) Like this-

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:46

       He's scary.

   19. BEBrandon Epstein3:46

       He's so strong. And what he did to Leon Edwards was like, holy shit, man. That's a world champion. And though, to do it that decisively on a world champion, like, he's completely turned a corner. He was always awesome. But he, post the Belal fight, completely turned a corner. And a lot of that success, he, uh, st-... He attributes to you.

   20. JRJoe Rogan4:09

       Yeah. It's interesting. He talks about this openly, but after the Belal fight, that's when we started working together. And it was because, and I think this happens to a lot of fighters, a lot of high-achievers, is he built this identity of being unbeatable.

   21. BEBrandon Epstein4:21

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan4:21

       Right? So all of his belief that was wired around who he was was, "I am unbeatable." And so when he lost, everything shattered.

   23. BEBrandon Epstein4:29

       Hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan4:30

       And so he was broken. He didn't know how to pick up the pieces after that. He was like, "How is this possible? I believe I'm unbeatable, but then I lost." And so we literally had to go into his nervous system. And it's almost like clearing out, almost like we're doing surgery at an energetic level, of clearing out all the bullshit around these new beliefs that were starting to form of like, in the confusion of like, "I am beatable. Well, am I gonna lose my next fight?" And we had to clear all that and bring him back into that state of being of, "I'm unbeatable again."

   25. BEBrandon Epstein4:56

       And how did you learn how to do all this? Like, what's your background?

4. 4:59 – 9:12

   Supplement wild west: prohormones, contamination, and Amazon counterfeits

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:59

      Yeah. So I was a college football player. And, uh, my freshman year in college, I rode the bench and I was looking for solutions. I was a typical meathead. The most important things for me was getting jacked and playing football.

   2. BEBrandon Epstein5:12

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:12

      Like, I was literally at a supplement shop looking for pro hormones. This is me at 18 years old, just fucking hypertensive, big neck.

   4. BEBrandon Epstein5:18

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:19

      You know?

   6. BEBrandon Epstein5:19

      They, and by the way, they used to sell some shit-

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:21

      Oh, but it was basically steroids.

   8. BEBrandon Epstein5:22

      ... people don't know. Basically steroids at local supplement shops. There was this stuff that I took once, the strongest shit I ever took in my life. I think it was called MAG10.

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:31

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BEBrandon Epstein5:31

       Do you remember that? Do you remember that one?

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:33

       I remember the MAG10, but I wasn't-

   12. BEBrandon Epstein5:33

       It was bananas.

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:35

       Yeah.

   14. BEBrandon Epstein5:35

       It was full-on steroids. And after I got off it, my dick was like, "What are we doing?"

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:39

       Yes.

   16. BEBrandon Epstein5:39

       "We don't have any more testosterone left." (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:42

       Yes. That was me at 18.

   18. BEBrandon Epstein5:42

       I took it for like eight weeks. It was crazy. I think I gained like 15 pounds. And I couldn't believe you could just buy it from a store. I'm like, "This can't be that good if you're just buying..." When someone told me about it, and I was like, "Really?" And they're like, "Yeah, you have to try this." There it is. Is that it?

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:57

       I don't know. It's the 2004 edition. Yes.

   20. BEBrandon Epstein5:58

       Anabolic Dominance. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:00

       (laughs) Damn.

   22. BEBrandon Epstein6:01

       I don't know if that's the stuff, but you definitely can't get that anymore, can you?

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:04

       No. Not today. They, they just keep banning them?

   24. BEBrandon Epstein6:05

       What is, what's in there?... but here's the other thing about what's in there. Says who?

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:11

       Yeah, right.

   26. BEBrandon Epstein6:11

       Says who? Who's checking it? We had a problem with, uh, my company, with Onnit. When we first started, we were g- we would send stuff out to third party labs to get it analyzed, right?

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:21

       Mm-hmm.

   28. BEBrandon Epstein6:21

       And we were finding all sorts of things in it that aren't supposed to be in there, like different vitamins, creatine, all kinds of shit that's just not supposed to be in there. Like, "Why is this stuff in this?"

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:30

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BEBrandon Epstein6:30

       It doesn't make any sense. And this is what you hear about with tainted supplements with fighters all the time. So what happens is, we found out that some of these companies that mix your products for you, say if you have, like, some B3, K2 supplement, you put them all together, they're mixing them in the same bin where they're making steroids. They're mixing them in the same bin where they're making creatine. Like, they don't give a fuck if that shit-
5. 9:12 – 13:07

   Honesty, social media, and the ‘success governor’ that caps people’s potential

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:12

      But, you know, people who are listening to pos- podcasts like this, we're just kinda, like, listening to influencers, in a way. It's like, "Oh, Huberman. Well, I trust you, so you have supplements that you represent? All right."

   2. BEBrandon Epstein9:20

      Well, Huberman is honest, and that's the most important thing.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:24

      That's what we do now, right? We're looking to-

   4. BEBrandon Epstein9:26

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:27

      ... these e- ... It could be doctors or ... But these people who we put our trust in, and it's like that's kinda like the bar that we're setting for, like, "All right. I'm gonna trust you."

   6. BEBrandon Epstein9:34

      Honesty like that is everything.

   7. JRJoe Rogan9:36

      Yeah.

   8. BEBrandon Epstein9:36

      Right? And including for yourself, like when everything falls apart, like what happened with Sean after the loss to Belal. Like, that ... The thing in your head ... Like, what it is is what it is, man. You know?

   9. JRJoe Rogan9:48

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BEBrandon Epstein9:48

       Like Max Holloway says, "It is what it is." He always says that. It's a beautiful way to look at life, really. It sounds simple, but it is what it is.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:56

       Yeah.

   12. BEBrandon Epstein9:56

       Like, you're not gonna change it by freaking out about it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:59

       Yeah.

   14. BEBrandon Epstein9:59

       You're not gonna ... You're, you're not going to. This is what it is. That guy was better than you, so how do you gotta ... What are you gonna do? How are you gonna improve?

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:06

       Yeah.

   16. BEBrandon Epstein10:07

       What, what did you do mentally that was different? Was there decisions that you made during the fight? Was there something going on? And if you can't be honest with yourself, you're not going to improve, but if you can be honest with yourself, it can make you stronger.

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:20

       Yeah.

   18. BEBrandon Epstein10:20

       You know?

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:20

       Yeah.

   20. BEBrandon Epstein10:20

       There's a lot of guys that have gone through losses and came back way more dangerous, and there's other guys that go through losses and they're ... Maybe they didn't go through a process like yours, or maybe they had a little ... some self-belief issues already and, you know, and they were kinda manifesting themself before the podcast.

   21. JRJoe Rogan10:37

       Yeah.

   22. BEBrandon Epstein10:38

       Maybe they were starting to g- or before the fight, rather. Maybe they were starting to get imposter syndrome. You know, like some fighters get imposter syndrome. They start winning and they're like, "There's no way I can be the champion."

   23. JRJoe Rogan10:47

       Yeah.

   24. BEBrandon Epstein10:47

       "This is crazy."

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:48

       And there's a governor, right? Like a governor card that comes up where it's like, "All right-

   26. BEBrandon Epstein10:51

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:51

       ... I can be successful up to this level."

   28. BEBrandon Epstein10:53

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan10:53

       "But anything beyond this is not safe."

   30. BEBrandon Epstein10:55

       It's scary.
6. 13:07 – 22:12

   UFC elite puzzle talk: point-fighting innovators and the sport’s evolution

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:07

      But stylistically, that was kind of the fight made for Sean, though, don't you think?

   2. BEBrandon Epstein13:11

      Well, it could be until you take into consideration the second Kamaru Usman fight, because Usman couldn't take him down.

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:17

      Mm-hmm.

   4. BEBrandon Epstein13:18

      That fight was primarily a standup fight, because Leon's take down defense had gotten so good. And I, like, I think there was that bump in confidence after the knockout and he really felt like the champion now. So for Belal to just step in and put a stop to all that, and then, you know, to see then him lose the title to Jack Della, and then see what Sean just did, and you, you look at the whole thing, you're like, "What a crazy shark tank of all these killers." Leon Edwards, Belal Muhammad-

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:50

      Yeah.

   6. BEBrandon Epstein13:50

      ... Della Maddalena, now you got Islam Makhachev in there, and it's like, who can keep it together the most is a giant factor.

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:58

      Yeah, they're all elite.

   8. BEBrandon Epstein13:59

      It's a giant factor.

   9. JRJoe Rogan14:00

      I know you don't really follow football, but like, this is like the SEC in football, right? It's the division has Alabama, LSU, Texas.

   10. BEBrandon Epstein14:07

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan14:07

       It's like they're all killers. So any given night, anyone could be anyone.

   12. BEBrandon Epstein14:11

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:11

       And it's just like who's gonna show up and execute the best? And that's what it comes down to.

   14. BEBrandon Epstein14:15

       And then you got Michael Venom Page, who's like the biggest puzzle in the entire sport. Like he's also 170.

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:22

       Yeah.

   16. BEBrandon Epstein14:23

       That guy, good luck. Good luck training for that guy. Like, just good luck. Good luck super tall welterweight who moves like nobody, who is a world point fighting champion. Like, that is a totally different thing, that port- point fighting thing.

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:40

       Hmm.

   18. BEBrandon Epstein14:40

       Have you ever watched that shit?

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:41

       No, I haven't.

   20. BEBrandon Epstein14:42

       Okay. Michael Venom Page was, at one point in time, the best karate point fighters. And the way karate point fighters fight, they stop after one person gets hit. It's kind of like e- an elite form of tag with lethal weapons.

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:57

       Hmm.

   22. BEBrandon Epstein14:58

       Like these guys are fucking good at these launches forward and blitzes, and they're really good at getting outta the way, 'cause guys are blitzing at them all the time. So because of the style of the competition, they developed this very unique skillset of being able to close the distance extremely fast with a lot of s- lot of distance in between them and land very unpredictable shots. Like, he's super creative.

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:24

       Yeah.

   24. BEBrandon Epstein15:24

       And he also knows how to wrestle now, and he also knows jujitsu now. So like now he's a mixed martial arts fighter, but he's got this one skillset that's crazy unique. And I always said that's the thing that's missing in MMA-

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:37

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BEBrandon Epstein15:37

       ... because we see what happens when you get like a really elite boxer. We've seen what happens with a really elite kickboxer, a really elite jujitsu guy, or wrestler. We haven't seen a really elite point fighter who learns all those other skills, 'cause it's a different thing. It's not like, like you know Pereira fights, he's not moving around a lot, dude. He's coming right at you.

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:56

       Yep.

   28. BEBrandon Epstein15:56

       There's not a lot of dancing-

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       Stalking move.

   30. BEBrandon Epstein15:58

       ... and there's not a lot of, you know, fucking, there's not a lot of-
7. 22:12 – 32:16

   Stigma around mental coaching—and why it’s ‘art,’ not textbook psychology

   1. BEBrandon Epstein22:12

      That's crazy. He's a world champion. Went through his entire career, no one calf kicked him. That's how weird this sport is. But I think what separates the guys is not just technique. It's, it's not just being a specialist in one very particular area, which is obviously a huge factor, but also the mind. And a lot of guys don't want to get help in that because they think that if they consult a sports psychologist, they're a pussy.

   2. JRJoe Rogan22:42

      Yeah, 100%. Being vulnerable makes me weak.

   3. BEBrandon Epstein22:44

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan22:45

      Right? That's a core belief for a lot of guys.

   5. BEBrandon Epstein22:47

      Right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan22:47

      And so, when you believe that to be true, you're not going to create weakness within yourself, so you're not gonna seek it out.

   7. BEBrandon Epstein22:53

      Exactly.

   8. JRJoe Rogan22:54

      And there's also a, a big stigma around, like, guys in this profession. Like anything, right?

   9. BEBrandon Epstein22:59

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan22:59

       There's, like, a range to comedians, right? There's a range-

   11. BEBrandon Epstein23:01

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan23:01

       ... to people who do what I do. There is... There's kinda pussies who do it, in a way, right? There's, like, people-

   13. BEBrandon Epstein23:06

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan23:06

       ... who are very, like, soft and-

   15. BEBrandon Epstein23:08

       Be in touch with your feelings.

   16. JRJoe Rogan23:09

       Yeah, yeah, like, the... Too far into, like, the woo-woo or too far to, like, "Hey, I'm gonna follow this textbook," where really this work is... It's art, at the end of the day, what we're doing. It's, like, it's a f- it's something you feel your way through and it requires years and years of practice to get to any level of mastery. And s-

   17. BEBrandon Epstein23:25

       And it's interesting. You're talking about, like, managing your brain as art.

   18. JRJoe Rogan23:30

       Yeah. Well, 'cause it's... It's not just the brain, it's the nervous system, it's the whole body, it's the energy body system, right? So we're talking about... You've heard of, like, meridians, right? They run through the body.

   19. BEBrandon Epstein23:38

       Is that all real?

   20. JRJoe Rogan23:39

       The chakras.

   21. BEBrandon Epstein23:40

       I hear about that.

   22. JRJoe Rogan23:41

       Yeah.

   23. BEBrandon Epstein23:41

       But those, those are things that I hear about and I go, "Eh."

   24. JRJoe Rogan23:43

       Well-

   25. BEBrandon Epstein23:43

       "I'll wait to talk to somebody about it that's a scientist."

   26. JRJoe Rogan23:45

       You could, you could call it whatever you want, right?

   27. BEBrandon Epstein23:47

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan23:47

       We all feel like a... Everyone feels anxiety right here, like in their solar plexus.

   29. BEBrandon Epstein23:51

       Yeah, you kinda feel it in the center of your body, right?

   30. JRJoe Rogan23:53

       Right? Boom.
8. 32:16 – 37:00

   Origin story: the supplement-store ‘sensei’ and discovering breathwork + visualization

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:16

      Yeah. So I'll talk about how I came to know them, right?

   2. BEBrandon Epstein32:19

      Yeah, please.

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:19

      So I was playing football and walked into this supplement shop, looking for my next pro hormone.

   4. BEBrandon Epstein32:24

      Oh, that's right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:24

      Yeah.

   6. BEBrandon Epstein32:24

      I interrupted you right there. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:25

      All good, bro. (laughs) We came back circle. We came back here-

   8. BEBrandon Epstein32:28

      There we go.

   9. JRJoe Rogan32:29

      ... like we needed to. So 230 pound, five foot three dude in there. Just jacked. And I'm like, "Hey what pro hormones do you have?" And he looks at me, he's like... You know, he's very, like, zen type of dude. And he's like, "Why do you want it?" And I was like, "I'm trying to get on the football field." Like, what else could I do? I'm a meathead. Like, I need to get stronger. It's the only thing I can do. And then he's like, he's like, "How do you feel?" Like, how do I feel? Like, this is me, 18 years old, atheist, don't believe in anything, biggest skeptic you're ever gonna meet in your life. And he's like, "I want you to try this exercise." And he has me just look off into the peripheries of my eyes.

   10. BEBrandon Epstein33:04

       How long had you known this guy by then?

   11. JRJoe Rogan33:06

       Literally meeting him.

   12. BEBrandon Epstein33:08

       Hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan33:08

       And he just starts going in on me.

   14. BEBrandon Epstein33:09

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan33:10

       Yeah.

   16. BEBrandon Epstein33:11

       Do you think he was trying to have sex with you or anything?

   17. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       Well, we can get into that. No, just kidding. (laughs)

   18. BEBrandon Epstein33:16

       (laughs) It's just an odd thing to go right into meridians.

   19. JRJoe Rogan33:19

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   20. BEBrandon Epstein33:19

       How do you feel?

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:20

       Yeah, yeah.

   22. BEBrandon Epstein33:20

       Like, whoa. I'm trying to get jacked.

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:21

       Yeah. Well, he's just that type of dude. So, I c- I call him like a sensei now. 'Cause I've known him for-

   24. BEBrandon Epstein33:25

       Oh, you know him still. Okay, good.

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:27

       Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. So I'm still-

   26. BEBrandon Epstein33:28

       So he's just a weird guy?

   27. JRJoe Rogan33:29

       He's a weird guy. Super weird guy.

   28. BEBrandon Epstein33:30

       A lot of guys would have their hackles up, though. Like, "What? How do I feel?"

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:33

       Yeah.

   30. BEBrandon Epstein33:33

       Like, "Give me that."
9. 37:00 – 42:38

   Evidence and mechanics: mental rehearsal studies, PETTLEP imagery, and belief as dominoes

   1. BEBrandon Epstein37:00

      How did breathing techniques help your bench?

   2. JRJoe Rogan37:04

      (inhales deeply) So there are some breathing techniques I'm sure you do in martial arts, right? You put your, uh, tongue behind your teeth-

   3. BEBrandon Epstein37:09

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan37:09

      ... and you can start to breathe in deeply. (inhales deeply) And you- if you start to visualize, bringing energy down through the crown of your head and then meeting it at t- uh, kind of like in the- just below your belly button there, you can just start to build more energy, more power. You're just focusing energy.

   5. BEBrandon Epstein37:23

      Okay.

   6. JRJoe Rogan37:24

      That's all you're doing. And then if you visualize yourself lifting the weight, you can lift it heavier. And so-

   7. BEBrandon Epstein37:28

      How much heavier?

   8. JRJoe Rogan37:30

      There's a bunch of research. You could look up, um, a- tons of different strength-based task studies that show that visualization increases strength. Like, for example-

   9. BEBrandon Epstein37:38

      So that's just kind of a, uh, kind of visualization, you think?

   10. JRJoe Rogan37:42

       Yeah.

   11. BEBrandon Epstein37:42

       That breathing exercise?

   12. JRJoe Rogan37:44

       I was just stacking what was known as, like, basic PETLEP imagery, P-E-T-T-L-E-P imagery, along with these breathing techniques and visualizing a specific way.

   13. BEBrandon Epstein37:55

       Oh, I thought that when they say visualization helps performance, I thought it was, like, long term. I didn't think it was, like, right before they did a thing. I thought the- I thought-

   14. JRJoe Rogan38:04

       I think it's both.

   15. BEBrandon Epstein38:05

       ... it was, like, part of training.

   16. JRJoe Rogan38:06

       I think ... Okay, so there's two types, right? So there's, like, for example, there's literally a study you could look up and it's, like, a bicep curl. They did this study, there was four different groups. The first group just didn't do anything. Second group just did bicep physical curl. The third group did bicep curl plus visualization of doing curls. The fourth group did just visualization. The group that did the just the bicep curl and the group that did just the visualization performed the same. They had the same increase in strength, and the group that performed the best was the one that did the visualization plus the bicep curl.

   17. BEBrandon Epstein38:40

       Interesting.

   18. JRJoe Rogan38:41

       And so there's a bunch of studies like that, that just show how when you just stack these different tools together, they can be beneficial, yes, in the short term. For, like, a fighter, for example, like, this is what I'm training my guys. When we go into fight camp, every single time, we're just training the subconscious to be comfortable being in the setting and just training the subconscious mind, right? We're just wiring, just digging in those grooves of, like, "This is what it's gonna feel like. This is gonna be the experience." And just wiring it-

   19. BEBrandon Epstein39:07

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan39:07

       ... in a way of having success. And then, what I do is I notice. I'm like, "How do you feel? How do you feel? How do you feel as we go along here?" It's like, "Oh, there's doubt that's coming up. Boom, let's go in there. Let's get rid of that." And it's not an intellectual thing to remove doubt. It's a feeling thing in the body. And honestly, I, I don't care what we call it. We could call it, in the chakra, we call it just feeling in the body. And you say, "All right, I feel doubt coming up right now at this point in the fight." Why? Well, I have this memory that's created this scar tissue within my nervous system right now because this has happened before that I believe if I try to do this, then something bad is gonna happen and I'm gonna lose the fight.

   21. BEBrandon Epstein39:41

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan39:41

       So we need to actually accept that, right? Zen proverb, "What I can't accept won't change." So you use these breathing techniques to accept your way through it. The body kind of relaxes through it, and then we let it go, and then we choose the opposite belief. And that's the alchemy of the process.

   23. BEBrandon Epstein39:57

       Do you know how many people were involved in the study that showed that the visualization right before the performance was better? Jamie, did you find it?

   24. NANarrator40:03

       This is a different one. This is about hip flexors.

   25. BEBrandon Epstein40:04

       Different ones? Hip flexors? Interesting.

   26. JRJoe Rogan40:06

       Yeah, there's a bunch of them out there, though. Um...

   27. BEBrandon Epstein40:08

       Study whether mental training alone could produce a gain in muscular strength. 30 male university athletes, including football, basketball, and rugby players were randomly assigned to perform mental training of their hip flexor muscles, to use weight machines to physically exercise their hip flexors, or to form a control group which received neither mental nor physical training. The hip strength of each group was measured before and after training. Physical strength was increased by 24% through mental practice. Strength was also increased through physical training by 28%, but did not change significantly in the control condition, whatever that means. What does that mean?

   28. JRJoe Rogan40:45

       That just means that people who didn't do anything, they didn't visualize and they didn't do the hip flexors.

   29. BEBrandon Epstein40:48

       Oh, in the control group?

   30. JRJoe Rogan40:49

       Yeah.
10. 42:38 – 46:08

    Psychosomatic injuries and core fears: when the body ‘won’t heal’

    1. JRJoe Rogan42:38

       If you can just do that, if you can progressively relax yourself, your anxiety is gonna go down, your cortisol levels are gonna go down, the whole body's gonna thrive. And this is actually, like, connected to so much that has to do with our health, kind of come a full circle is I see so much... A lot of professional athletes come to me with these injuries, a physical therapist working on it, working on it, working on it, nothing's happening. It's just a nagging injury. Every single time, if I can relax them enough and I can get to the root emotional core of whatever's creating this pain for them, and it's usually emotional. It's actually like a memory or some kind of mental block, like, uh, the governor's coming in. Right? I'll see it with some guys in, like, the lower minor leagues, he's trying to go up to the major leagues. And it's like these things will just start to express themselves when they're just about to get to that next level. And if we can move through the emotional side of it, whoo, the pain disappears like...

    2. BEBrandon Epstein43:29

       Right. But not in all injuries, right? Like, 'cause there's gotta be, like, legitimate injuries-

    3. JRJoe Rogan43:33

       I-

    4. BEBrandon Epstein43:33

       ... where guys blow their meniscus out, guys have broken shin bones-

    5. JRJoe Rogan43:37

       Yeah. I would say-

    6. BEBrandon Epstein43:38

       ... they have to be reconstructed.

    7. JRJoe Rogan43:39

       ... stuff that can't be explained, like a lot of times, right? You go to the doctor, like, "I don't know what your issue is." Right? That happens all the time.

    8. BEBrandon Epstein43:45

       Okay. Well, that's a different thing. I mean, the, the realities of physical injuries that guys get from combat sports training are real.

    9. JRJoe Rogan43:51

       Sure, sure.

    10. BEBrandon Epstein43:51

        Like if you have bulging discs in your neck and your arm goes numb, that's li- that's a real problem.

    11. JRJoe Rogan43:56

        Yeah.

    12. BEBrandon Epstein43:57

        You know? It's not just an emotional thing.

    13. JRJoe Rogan43:59

        I'm speaking about things that are, like, nagging, and you're doing the physical therapy and it's not working.

    14. BEBrandon Epstein44:04

        Right. Okay.

    15. JRJoe Rogan44:05

        If that's you-

    16. BEBrandon Epstein44:06

        Okay.

    17. JRJoe Rogan44:06

        ... then that's

    18. NANarrator44:06

        What's up, Joe Rogan, man.

    19. BEBrandon Epstein44:06

        ... so yeah, we gotta be specific, right? So you're talking about, like, weird stuff that does come up where they're almost like psychosomatic injuries 'cause guys are responding badly to the pressure.

    20. JRJoe Rogan44:16

        And not even just the, the pressure. It could just be, it could be an injury that existed before-

    21. BEBrandon Epstein44:22

        Mm-hmm.

    22. JRJoe Rogan44:23

        ... but it's just not healing. For whatever reason, it's not healing and it's just kinda recurring. If you can get to the emotional root what keeps that, like I have fun with this now. I always look up whenever someone tells me their injury, I just look it up, ChatGPT, what is the spiritual/emotional connection to this injury?

    23. BEBrandon Epstein44:37

        (laughs)

    24. JRJoe Rogan44:37

        And it's usually right on point. I'll be like, "What do you think about this?" They're like, "Oh, yeah, that's something

    25. NANarrator44:42

        Yeah.

    26. BEBrandon Epstein44:42

        ... real."

    27. NANarrator44:42

        Yeah.

    28. BEBrandon Epstein44:42

        A spiritual/emotional connection to, but not to, like, legit injuries like a broken hand.

    29. JRJoe Rogan44:47

        Yeah. I mean, the hand's-

    30. BEBrandon Epstein44:48

        You know what I mean?
11. 46:08 – 49:01

    Rebuilding fighters after catastrophic injury: Weidman, scar tissue, and confidence

    1. BEBrandon Epstein46:08

       Did you ever talk to Weidman after he broke his leg?

    2. JRJoe Rogan46:11

       I did.

    3. BEBrandon Epstein46:11

       Did you?

    4. JRJoe Rogan46:12

       I did, yeah. Yeah.

    5. BEBrandon Epstein46:13

       Does he openly talk about that? Are we allowed to talk about this?

    6. JRJoe Rogan46:16

       Yeah. I mean, he gave me a, a testimonial, so I think he's-

    7. BEBrandon Epstein46:18

       Okay.

    8. JRJoe Rogan46:19

       ... he's pretty open, like-

    9. BEBrandon Epstein46:20

       He gave it like a d- like online so you could talk about it 'cause-

    10. JRJoe Rogan46:22

        Yeah, yeah. He put like a video testimony. I'm gonna go-

    11. BEBrandon Epstein46:23

        He's one of the toughest guys that's ever fought in the UFC. He's an animal. And that guy in his prime was fucking terrifying.

    12. JRJoe Rogan46:31

        Yeah.

    13. BEBrandon Epstein46:31

        But that injury that he got is one of the absolute hardest injuries to recover from. That broken leg, when they break their shin in half like that, very few people ever come back.

    14. JRJoe Rogan46:44

        Yeah.

    15. BEBrandon Epstein46:45

        I mean, there's one guy I believe that's a heavyweight in Bellator, it happened to him, and he's fighting again and fighting well. I don't know his name. See if you can find his name. But Anderson was never the same after his... Tyrone Spong was never the same after his... Weidman was never the same after his... It's just, and psychologically it's gotta be fucking crazy to-

    16. JRJoe Rogan47:06

        Oh.

    17. BEBrandon Epstein47:06

        ... think that you threw a super powerful kick that broke your own leg in half, and now you're expected... You went through a year and a half of hell to try to just get to the point where you can hit pads again.

    18. JRJoe Rogan47:18

        Yeah.

    19. BEBrandon Epstein47:19

        And now you're gonna go risk it again? Might kick someone's knee again and break your shin again and do that again?

    20. JRJoe Rogan47:25

        Yeah.

    21. BEBrandon Epstein47:25

        And then you can't walk again?

    22. JRJoe Rogan47:27

        What we were talking about is like that, just so we have physical scar tissue, it's that emotional scar tissue, you know? It's just like it's hard for those thoughts not to come back into your head of like, "I need to be extra careful here."

    23. BEBrandon Epstein47:37

        Well, they're reasonable thoughts-

    24. JRJoe Rogan47:39

        Yeah. Of course.

    25. BEBrandon Epstein47:39

        ... you know, if you think about it. But it's like Chris had that style, where, I mean, that, the kick that he threw on Uriah Hall was full blast. I mean, he fucking ripped that kick. And then when I heard that snap, oof, I've heard that snap a couple of times and it is the m- most horrible sound, man. The sound of a bone breaking, like a person's bone breaking, it's like, "Oof. Fuck."

    26. JRJoe Rogan48:04

        Yeah.

    27. BEBrandon Epstein48:04

        It gets you like in every cell in your body, like, "God-

    28. JRJoe Rogan48:08

        Mm.

    29. BEBrandon Epstein48:08

        ... damn, that's awful." Huh. And I've seen it a bunch. I've seen it, you know, at least half a dozen times I've seen people get a bro- a bone broken.

    30. JRJoe Rogan48:18

        Yeah. It's traumatizing.
12. 49:01 – 58:27

    Joe’s session methodology: hypnosis, NLP, ‘core wound’ work, and reprogramming beliefs

    1. JRJoe Rogan49:01

       I'm gonna explain what I do. It's gonna sound woo-woo, but I also wanna contextualize it with the fact that, like, I didn't believe in anything. Like, it's just- just my experience of, like, doing this stuff for 17 years now and just seeing and feeling my way into this art that now I speak about things that the old me, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, would be like, "Shut the fuck up."

    2. BEBrandon Epstein49:20

       Mm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan49:21

       Right? But, so what I do with any of my clients is I bring them to a very relaxed state. You know, like, think of Cus D'Amato, what he did with Mike Tyson. Like, that's what I'm doing with these guys, right? So I'm bringing them almost into a hypnotic state and I'm bringing them down into this place where they finally let go. They're no- no longer trying to, like, keep me out, defend, keep up this, like, identity they want to project into the world.

    4. BEBrandon Epstein49:43

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JRJoe Rogan49:43

       So they can actually get to the insecurities, because I don't touch any of the beliefs that are working for them. If someone has positive beliefs, they're successful, I don't touch any of that stuff. All I'm trying to find is their insecurity, their fear, their anxiety, their doubt.

    6. BEBrandon Epstein49:56

       Right.

    7. JRJoe Rogan49:57

       And so I'm just digging deeper and deeper into their body until we start to, like, think about things they wanna achieve. And it's like, "Ooh, what was twitchy there?" Right? Something twitches in 'em. It's like, "I'm feeling like I'm getting angry now." "Why are you getting angry?" Right? Why do we get angry? It's 'cause we're afraid and we're trying to defend ourselves. And so if I find something like that, I feel into it with them and then I ask 'em, I'm like, "What would... What do you believe to be true that make you feel this way right now?" And if I sit there long and I hold him in that tension, it'll eventually come up. And through that, we can release that belief. We can accept our way through it first, we can release it and we can reprogram it.

    8. BEBrandon Epstein50:34

       How are you setting this up? Are y- is this actual hypnosis? Are you doing, like, hypnotic techniques?

    9. JRJoe Rogan50:38

       Yeah.

    10. BEBrandon Epstein50:38

        Yeah? And how did you learn how to do that?

    11. JRJoe Rogan50:42

        Same guy, Sensei.

    12. BEBrandon Epstein50:43

        Sensei? (laughs)

    13. JRJoe Rogan50:44

        (laughs) Yeah, this guy.

    14. BEBrandon Epstein50:45

        Does he have a cult?

    15. JRJoe Rogan50:46

        (laughs) No.

    16. BEBrandon Epstein50:46

        Does he have a cult that we could join?

    17. JRJoe Rogan50:47

        Oh, one of one. (laughs)

    18. BEBrandon Epstein50:50

        (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan50:50

        No, no, no.

    20. BEBrandon Epstein50:50

        So this guy taught you hypnosis techniques as well?

    21. JRJoe Rogan50:52

        Yeah, yeah, he taught me a lot of different thing... Hypnosis, NLP, uh, timeline therapy. And then I didn't go on and get a secondary degree, so I studied the... I created my own degree, I went to a liberal arts school in LA. The mental aspect of human performance, but everything I was learning that was helping me and my teammates, I was learning outside of school. So I was like, "I'm not gonna go get... spend $200,000 in getting a secondary degree when I'm learning everything else outside of school." So I've just continued to go to workshops, learn, study with different people who know how to do different techniques. And I, that's how I learn, very kinesthetically. In the same way that if you're doing martial arts, you're just trying to go to as many masters as you can who-

    22. BEBrandon Epstein51:29

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JRJoe Rogan51:29

        ... this guy jujitsu, this guy kickboxing. That's just what I've done. I've gone and tried to find different people who are really good at what they do, and that's how I learn, through doing and actually experiencing the work on myself first. If it works for me, then I try it on my clients. If it works for them... I just keep it going. And I just... I don't have one technique. I use many different techniques. Whatever the moment calls for, that's what I use.

    24. BEBrandon Epstein51:50

        Are there even degrees that you could get in human performance that would sort of match the kind of studying that you're doing?

    25. JRJoe Rogan51:57

        No.

    26. BEBrandon Epstein51:57

        Like, is there anything... Like, if you went to a major university, do they consider human mental performance and human performance, whether it's in athletics or chess or anything like that, where you have to really think through things and deal with pressure? Do they consider that an, uh, a discipline? Is that something that they study?

    27. JRJoe Rogan52:15

        I think sports psychology, um, I think you can get a degree.

    28. BEBrandon Epstein52:19

        But isn't... That sounds very rudimentary.

    29. JRJoe Rogan52:21

        It is.

    30. BEBrandon Epstein52:21

        Like, sports psychology versus human performance.
13. 58:27 – 1:20:11

    The wider toolkit: lifestyle audit, exercise, meaning, resistance, and disciplined action

    1. JRJoe Rogan58:27

       The second half of the book is a literally playbook. Just do everything in the second half of the book. It's a playbook.

    2. BEBrandon Epstein58:31

       What I'm, what I'm getting to this is though, like, you know, d- you're dealing with a guy like Sean Brady. He's already tough as fuck. He's already a, you know, elite MMA fighter. He has this loss, but he's already a beast of a human being.

    3. JRJoe Rogan58:43

       Yeah.

    4. BEBrandon Epstein58:43

       But when you're dealing with people that don't have any athletic background, and, you know, maybe they just have a job, and they just have no fucking confidence, man, they're sick of it. They're sick of, like, living life-

    5. JRJoe Rogan58:53

       Yes.

    6. BEBrandon Epstein58:53

       ... in this anxiety pit of despair, and they wanna find a way out. There's gotta be, like, multiple different things that have to happen, right? So, it's not just the way you think, but there's also, like, actions.

    7. JRJoe Rogan59:05

       Well-

    8. BEBrandon Epstein59:05

       And I think-

    9. JRJoe Rogan59:06

       This is an action, right? Step into awareness.

    10. BEBrandon Epstein59:09

        Yes.

    11. JRJoe Rogan59:10

        Feel it. The next set of actions the next week, step into awareness of what you're feeling and what are you focusing on that makes you feel that way. That's another set of actions.

    12. BEBrandon Epstein59:18

        But do you feel like this is all possible for someone to, uh, achieve without some kind of physical exercise in coordination with it?

    13. JRJoe Rogan59:27

        Um, what kind of exercise-

    14. BEBrandon Epstein59:28

        'Cause it seems like-

    15. JRJoe Rogan59:28

        ... are you talking about?

    16. BEBrandon Epstein59:29

        It feels, it seems to me that people with depression, in particular, like, one of the best cures for depression is regular exercise, any kind of exercise.

    17. JRJoe Rogan59:37

        Oh, 100%.

    18. BEBrandon Epstein59:37

        Whether it's j- you know, fucking go jog around the lake, whatever, whatever you wanna do.

    19. JRJoe Rogan59:42

        Well, listen, even before any of this is low-hanging fruits. Like, in the book, I take a, I have people do an intake of their life. And I have them also kinda just look at all the low-hanging fruit of, like, if you're drinking vodka bottles at 7:00 AM in the morning, like, that's a low-hanging fruit you need to start to find a way through. Drink one instead of three, right? There's all these, like, small steps you have to take-

    20. BEBrandon Epstein1:00:02

        Drink one bottle instead of three, is that what you're saying?

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:00:03

        Like, you know, the tiny bottles. Come on, man.

    22. BEBrandon Epstein1:00:05

        Oh.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

        You know what I'm saying? Like, this is like-

    24. BEBrandon Epstein1:00:06

        If you're drinking vodka in the morning, like, you've got bigger problems.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:00:09

        Bro, I've, I've had clients who are, like, you know, high-level executives that are so stressed that they drink first thing in the morning. I've had, and I've helped them-

    26. BEBrandon Epstein1:00:16

        Oh, God.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:00:16

        ... get off it completely, but it starts-

    28. BEBrandon Epstein1:00:18

        Hmm.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:00:18

        ... with something like that, of like, all right...

    30. BEBrandon Epstein1:00:20

        Well, that's a big duh, right? But what I'm getting at is, I think if you want to have less anxiety, you gotta wring some of it outta your physical body as well, and that'll help you achieve clarity. You have to think about it like an, like a nutrient that you're taking or brushing your teeth or doing some, take your medication. You have to really think about it like that. And it doesn't matter what kinda stuff you do. It doesn't matter, whatever you like to do. If you like to do yoga, you wanna go hike with a weight vest on, you wanna do push-ups in the, a parking lot, like, w- do whatever, do something.

Episode duration: 2:19:48