The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #2374 - Ben van Kerkwyk
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 2:54
A metallic “Tic Tac” deep under Hawara: why Rogan wanted Ben on
Joe opens by reacting to Ben’s viral video about Egypt’s lost Labyrinth at Hawara and the claim that scans reveal a large metallic, tic-tac-shaped object deep underground. Ben frames the discussion around new scan data and why it’s not fringe speculation but rooted in reported measurements and historical accounts.
- •Joe cites Ben’s Labyrinth video as the catalyst for the episode
- •Ben describes an alleged ~40m metallic object ~60–70m underground
- •Explanation of the Labyrinth’s multi-level ‘central atrium’ concept
- •Ben positions the scanning claims as coming from credible tech/companies
- 2:54 – 4:31
Ancient sources and the Labyrinth’s location in the Faiyum
Ben explains that the Labyrinth is well-attested in classical literature, with multiple ancient authors describing it as surpassing the pyramids. He locates it near Lake Moeris/Crocodilopolis in the Faiyum region and ties it to the pyramid of Amenemhat III at Hawara.
- •Classical writers: Herodotus, Strabo, Pliny, Diodorus, etc.
- •Herodotus’s claim it exceeded Greek works and rivaled/surpassed pyramids
- •Geographic identifiers: Lake Moeris, Crocodilopolis/Arsinoë, Faiyum depression
- •Association with Amenemhat III’s pyramid at Hawara
- 4:31 – 7:31
From Petrie’s ‘it’s gone’ to modern geophysics: the Labyrinth reappears
The conversation shifts to modern archaeology: early surveys found surface ruins, while Flinders Petrie dug down and concluded the Labyrinth had been quarried away, leaving only a massive slab. Ben argues newer subsurface methods indicate substantial structures below that slab, contradicting the orthodox ‘destroyed’ narrative.
- •Lepsius finds surface town remains; Petrie reaches a huge slab and declares the Labyrinth quarried away
- •Orthodox position (e.g., Wikipedia/textbooks): ‘gone’ except foundations
- •Ben claims deeper levels exist below Petrie’s excavation depth
- •Labyrinth described as maze-like granite/dense-rock walls and chambers
- 7:31 – 13:27
2008–2009 Matagir Expedition: methods, results, and alleged suppression
Ben details the Matagir Expedition (backed by Louis de Cordier with Egypt’s antiquities authorities) and the suite of established geophysical techniques used. He says the scans detected large-scale labyrinthine walls on both sides of a modern canal, and then claims the results were suppressed with threats of ‘national security sanctions.’
- •Established survey tools: GPR, geomagnetics, VLF sounding, tomography, resistivity
- •Findings: large wall grids/chambers, football-field scale scan areas
- •Two areas scanned; structures detected on both sides of the canal
- •Claim: de Cordier told to stop talking; threats tied to ‘national security’
- 13:27 – 20:34
Politics, Zahi Hawass, and the groundwater problem as motive
Joe and Ben discuss Egyptian information control and Zahi Hawass’s role, using ScanPyramids as an example of initial dismissal followed by later adoption. Ben proposes a pragmatic motive: the site’s rising water table and massive remediation cost make it easier politically to downplay the discovery than to announce an expensive crisis.
- •Information release in Egypt controlled by antiquities authorities
- •ScanPyramids precedent: early pushback, later official embrace
- •High Dam and irrigation raise groundwater; Hawara water table ~5m depth
- •Ben speculates suppression may be driven by remediation cost and optics
- 20:34 – 22:23
Cairo University/Polish follow-up and claims of retaliation
Ben describes a later academic effort focused on understanding groundwater flow via boreholes and test pits, which he says also confirmed subsurface structures. He relays a claim from reports that a project lead was jailed and the work was halted, reinforcing the theme of institutional and political pressure.
- •Cairo University + Polish university groundwater investigations
- •Boreholes/test pits to model sources and directions of water flow
- •Claim: their GPR also confirmed the Labyrinth
- •Allegation: project head jailed; report released years later (2017)
- 22:23 – 27:56
Can it be accessed anyway? Deep levels, tunneling ideas, and why it matters
Joe explores practical ‘workarounds’—like tunneling below the water table—if the deeper levels are relatively dry. Ben argues the Labyrinth is uniquely compelling because it is repeatedly described historically and now ‘confirmed’ by multiple independent scanning approaches, making excavation a once-in-an-era opportunity.
- •Possibility that deepest levels (down to ~100m) may be drier
- •Idea: access via a deep side tunnel rather than dewatering the whole site
- •Ben contrasts Labyrinth evidence vs more speculative scan claims elsewhere
- •Rogan calls for billionaire-level funding to solve the problem
- 27:56 – 31:16
How big was it supposed to be? Rooms, courts, guides, and the lighting mystery
They return to the ancient descriptions: thousands of rooms, massive peristyle courts, and twisting passages that required guides. Joe and Ben highlight details like roofs ‘of a single stone’ and ask how subterranean spaces were illuminated, noting the common observation of minimal soot in some underground Egyptian sites.
- •Herodotus/Strabo/Diodorus on 3,000 rooms and multiple vast courts
- •Accounts emphasize maze-like navigation requiring guides
- •Claims of extraordinary craftsmanship and monolithic-looking roofing
- •Question: how were deep underground complexes lit without soot?
- 31:16 – 33:54
Dating debates: Pliny’s timeline and pyramid radiocarbon controversies
The discussion pivots to chronology: Pliny’s statement implies extremely ancient construction, potentially predating standard pyramid dates. Ben and Joe discuss radiocarbon dating from mortar/ash that often returns earlier ranges than orthodox timelines, and the ‘old wood’ explanation used to reconcile the mismatch.
- •Pliny’s ‘constructed 3,600 years ago’ claim and implications
- •Radiocarbon sampling from mortar/organic inclusions between stones
- •Results sometimes earlier by a few hundred years vs conventional dating
- •Debate over what carbon dates actually prove: construction vs refurbishment
- 33:54 – 38:55
The ‘Tale of Two Industries’: ordinary craftsmanship vs precision artifacts
Ben lays out his framework: a visible handmade tradition that matches known tools and depictions, and a separate set of ultra-precise hard-stone artifacts that don’t match those tools or iconography. Joe presses for examples, leading to vases, the schist disk, statues, and other high-precision objects.
- •Two categories: documented handmade work vs unexplained precision work
- •Lack of wall depictions showing how megalithic/precision objects were made
- •Examples introduced: pre-dynastic hard-stone vases, schist disk, boxes/statues
- •Argument: precision artifacts imply different methods/tech capabilities
- 38:55 – 42:06
Pre-dynastic vase scanning: aerospace-level tolerances and the ‘handles’ problem
Ben summarizes modern LiDAR/CT/laser scans of vases that allegedly show extreme circularity/flatness and tight tolerances comparable to advanced manufacturing. Joe probes the manufacturing paradox of symmetrical handles and the lack of precision loss where tool changes would normally introduce error.
- •Modern scanning reveals very high symmetry and tight tolerances on many vessels
- •Claims of tolerances in thousandths of an inch (comparable to aerospace)
- •Handles imply multi-step machining—but measured precision stays consistent
- •Hypothesis: single-pass multi-axis machining vs lathe + secondary tooling
- 42:06 – 1:03:59
Materials and thin walls: granite, diorite, quartz crystal, and drill marks
They handle fragments and discuss how hard, non-homogeneous stones like granite complicate precision machining. Ben highlights thin-walled examples (down to ~2mm or thinner) and points out tubular drill marks as evidence of coring processes, raising questions about tool materials and power sources.
- •Hard-stone media: granite, diorite, rock crystal (quartz)
- •Thin walls: translucent crystal and extremely thin diorite reported by Petrie
- •Granite’s variable hardness makes clean machining/polishing difficult
- •Tubular drill marks inside fragments suggest coring as a standard method
- 1:03:59 – 1:06:00
Provenance pushback and museum validation of the vase data
Ben addresses skepticism that private-collection pieces might be modern fakes. He claims the project has now scanned ~100 museum-held vessels with strong provenance, with results aligning with earlier findings, weakening the ‘forgery’ objection.
- •Early criticism: modern forgeries due to private-market provenance gaps
- •Shift: scans in multiple museums with ‘impeccable provenance’
- •Results reportedly match earlier private-collection measurements
- •Ben argues museum vs private provenance isn’t a perfect reliability divide
- 1:06:00 – 1:13:47
SEM results: no copper traces, but titanium and other metals?
Ben describes microscopy work with physicist Max Zamilov using scanning electron microscopes to look for cutting-tool residue. He reports finding no copper—challenging the common ‘copper tube + abrasive sand’ model—while observing trace metals including titanium and possible titanium-iron mixes, with a discussion of contamination risk.
- •SEM/elemental mapping used to search for tool residue in grooves
- •Reported finding: zero copper traces in examined samples
- •Reported trace findings: titanium, iron, zinc, tin, zircon (various combos)
- •Joe raises contamination/chain-of-custody concerns; Ben says more study needed
- 1:13:47 – 1:26:00
Radioactivity and ‘nuclear machining’: speculative mechanism for impossible cuts
Ben relays Zamilov’s germanium-detector measurements suggesting some precision vases show elevated thorium decay products and even a cesium-137 signature in one piece. They explore the speculative idea that an advanced process—‘nuclear machining’—could ablate stone and leave radioactive signatures, while emphasizing the need for rigorous follow-up testing.
- •Claim: precision vases show 2–3x thorium decay products vs base rock/non-precision pieces
- •One fragment allegedly shows cesium-137 signature
- •Hypothesis: ‘nuclear machining’ via energetic particle emission causing ablation
- •Joe frames it as ‘too crazy’ but notes future tech could plausibly reach this
- 1:26:00 – 1:38:49
From Labyrinth ‘Tic Tac’ to stargate glyphs at Dendera
The episode swings back to the metallic object claim and then into Egyptian iconography: Joe reads Tim Acres’ more speculative ‘portal/stargate’ language. Ben claims Dendera contains glyphs translated as ‘stargate,’ prompting a pause to pull up images and discuss how symbolic interpretations may preserve echoes of older functional technology.
- •Tim Acres quote: metallic object ‘unlike anything’ seen; speculative portal talk
- •Ben claims Dendera inscriptions/glyphs literally translate as ‘stargate’
- •They locate example imagery via a YouTube video/translator references
- •Debate: symbolic religious language vs encoded memory of lost tech
- 1:38:49 – 2:59:41
Aliens, dark-forest logic, and why ancient mysteries matter for our future
They broaden into speculative territory: reptilian depictions, UFO possibilities, and interstellar objects like ’Oumuamua and 3I/Atlas. Ben closes on a motivation: replacing the ‘linear progress’ story with a cyclical civilization-cataclysm model could reorient modern priorities toward long-term survival, exploration, and resilience.
- •Discussion of alien possibilities, ‘reptilian’ tropes, and Fermi paradox framing
- •Interstellar objects: ‘Oumuamua behavior and the newer 3I/Atlas debate
- •‘Dark forest’ theory: why broadcasting might be dangerous
- •Ben’s thesis: cyclical rises/falls of civilization; cultural impact on future planning
