The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #2374 - Ben van Kerkwyk
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 2:54
A metallic “Tic Tac” deep under Hawara: why Rogan wanted Ben on
Joe opens by reacting to Ben’s viral video about Egypt’s lost Labyrinth at Hawara and the claim that scans reveal a large metallic, tic-tac-shaped object deep underground. Ben frames the discussion around new scan data and why it’s not fringe speculation but rooted in reported measurements and historical accounts.
- 2:54 – 4:31
Ancient sources and the Labyrinth’s location in the Faiyum
Ben explains that the Labyrinth is well-attested in classical literature, with multiple ancient authors describing it as surpassing the pyramids. He locates it near Lake Moeris/Crocodilopolis in the Faiyum region and ties it to the pyramid of Amenemhat III at Hawara.
- 4:31 – 7:31
From Petrie’s ‘it’s gone’ to modern geophysics: the Labyrinth reappears
The conversation shifts to modern archaeology: early surveys found surface ruins, while Flinders Petrie dug down and concluded the Labyrinth had been quarried away, leaving only a massive slab. Ben argues newer subsurface methods indicate substantial structures below that slab, contradicting the orthodox ‘destroyed’ narrative.
- 7:31 – 13:27
2008–2009 Matagir Expedition: methods, results, and alleged suppression
Ben details the Matagir Expedition (backed by Louis de Cordier with Egypt’s antiquities authorities) and the suite of established geophysical techniques used. He says the scans detected large-scale labyrinthine walls on both sides of a modern canal, and then claims the results were suppressed with threats of ‘national security sanctions.’
- 13:27 – 20:34
Politics, Zahi Hawass, and the groundwater problem as motive
Joe and Ben discuss Egyptian information control and Zahi Hawass’s role, using ScanPyramids as an example of initial dismissal followed by later adoption. Ben proposes a pragmatic motive: the site’s rising water table and massive remediation cost make it easier politically to downplay the discovery than to announce an expensive crisis.
- 20:34 – 22:23
Cairo University/Polish follow-up and claims of retaliation
Ben describes a later academic effort focused on understanding groundwater flow via boreholes and test pits, which he says also confirmed subsurface structures. He relays a claim from reports that a project lead was jailed and the work was halted, reinforcing the theme of institutional and political pressure.
- 22:23 – 27:56
Can it be accessed anyway? Deep levels, tunneling ideas, and why it matters
Joe explores practical ‘workarounds’—like tunneling below the water table—if the deeper levels are relatively dry. Ben argues the Labyrinth is uniquely compelling because it is repeatedly described historically and now ‘confirmed’ by multiple independent scanning approaches, making excavation a once-in-an-era opportunity.
- 27:56 – 31:16
How big was it supposed to be? Rooms, courts, guides, and the lighting mystery
They return to the ancient descriptions: thousands of rooms, massive peristyle courts, and twisting passages that required guides. Joe and Ben highlight details like roofs ‘of a single stone’ and ask how subterranean spaces were illuminated, noting the common observation of minimal soot in some underground Egyptian sites.
- 31:16 – 33:54
Dating debates: Pliny’s timeline and pyramid radiocarbon controversies
The discussion pivots to chronology: Pliny’s statement implies extremely ancient construction, potentially predating standard pyramid dates. Ben and Joe discuss radiocarbon dating from mortar/ash that often returns earlier ranges than orthodox timelines, and the ‘old wood’ explanation used to reconcile the mismatch.
- 33:54 – 38:55
The ‘Tale of Two Industries’: ordinary craftsmanship vs precision artifacts
Ben lays out his framework: a visible handmade tradition that matches known tools and depictions, and a separate set of ultra-precise hard-stone artifacts that don’t match those tools or iconography. Joe presses for examples, leading to vases, the schist disk, statues, and other high-precision objects.
- 38:55 – 42:06
Pre-dynastic vase scanning: aerospace-level tolerances and the ‘handles’ problem
Ben summarizes modern LiDAR/CT/laser scans of vases that allegedly show extreme circularity/flatness and tight tolerances comparable to advanced manufacturing. Joe probes the manufacturing paradox of symmetrical handles and the lack of precision loss where tool changes would normally introduce error.
- 42:06 – 1:03:59
Materials and thin walls: granite, diorite, quartz crystal, and drill marks
They handle fragments and discuss how hard, non-homogeneous stones like granite complicate precision machining. Ben highlights thin-walled examples (down to ~2mm or thinner) and points out tubular drill marks as evidence of coring processes, raising questions about tool materials and power sources.
- 1:03:59 – 1:06:00
Provenance pushback and museum validation of the vase data
Ben addresses skepticism that private-collection pieces might be modern fakes. He claims the project has now scanned ~100 museum-held vessels with strong provenance, with results aligning with earlier findings, weakening the ‘forgery’ objection.
- 1:06:00 – 1:13:47
SEM results: no copper traces, but titanium and other metals?
Ben describes microscopy work with physicist Max Zamilov using scanning electron microscopes to look for cutting-tool residue. He reports finding no copper—challenging the common ‘copper tube + abrasive sand’ model—while observing trace metals including titanium and possible titanium-iron mixes, with a discussion of contamination risk.
- 1:13:47 – 1:26:00
Radioactivity and ‘nuclear machining’: speculative mechanism for impossible cuts
Ben relays Zamilov’s germanium-detector measurements suggesting some precision vases show elevated thorium decay products and even a cesium-137 signature in one piece. They explore the speculative idea that an advanced process—‘nuclear machining’—could ablate stone and leave radioactive signatures, while emphasizing the need for rigorous follow-up testing.
- 1:26:00 – 1:38:49
From Labyrinth ‘Tic Tac’ to stargate glyphs at Dendera
The episode swings back to the metallic object claim and then into Egyptian iconography: Joe reads Tim Acres’ more speculative ‘portal/stargate’ language. Ben claims Dendera contains glyphs translated as ‘stargate,’ prompting a pause to pull up images and discuss how symbolic interpretations may preserve echoes of older functional technology.
- 1:38:49 – 2:59:41
Aliens, dark-forest logic, and why ancient mysteries matter for our future
They broaden into speculative territory: reptilian depictions, UFO possibilities, and interstellar objects like ’Oumuamua and 3I/Atlas. Ben closes on a motivation: replacing the ‘linear progress’ story with a cyclical civilization-cataclysm model could reorient modern priorities toward long-term survival, exploration, and resilience.
