Joe Rogan Experience #2379 - Matthew McConaughey

1. 0:00 – 3:23

   Why McConaughey wrote “Poems and Prayers”: rebuilding belief and avoiding cynicism

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Good bro. Cheers, cheers, sir.

   3. MMMatthew McConaughey0:14

      Thanks. Good to see you on your home turf there.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      My man. Yeah. Hey. You, um, you're a man of many talents, my friend. Tell me about this book.

   5. MMMatthew McConaughey0:27

      Poems and Prayers, yeah. Um, so I've been kinda writing-

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:33

      Try to keep this, like, these are a little bit directional. How's that? Yeah, perfect.

   7. MMMatthew McConaughey0:37

      I've been kind of, I've been writing poems and prayers down for, since I was like 18. Um, and then this last, I don't know, couple years, I started looking around at life and the facts and evidence and people, and I was, like, not finding the amount of things or people to believe in that I was wanting to. And I was starting to have doubt to myself as well, and I started to see myself slip into a little bit of cynicism.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:06

      Mm.

   9. MMMatthew McConaughey1:07

      Which I promised myself that's, that, no, that's a, that's a living man's disease. Don't go there.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:13

       Yeah.

   11. MMMatthew McConaughey1:13

       You go from innocence to s- to, to naivete to skepticism, but let's stop there at skepticism.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Yeah.

   13. MMMatthew McConaughey1:20

       And I kinda got scared and a little pissed off at myself and was like, "Well wait a minute. I'm not ready to give up. I'm not ready to wave the, wave the white flag and let myself off for certain things I was starting to even wanna let myself off on. You know? Or other people." And, um, I said, "All right, poems and prayers, those are ideals, those are pursuits. You know? That's going to the dream and saying let's go to the... Let's, let's, let's look at the dream and see if we can still believe in making that a reality."

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:49

       Aspirational.

   15. MMMatthew McConaughey1:50

       Instead of looking at reality and saying, "How do you turn that into a dream?" Which is what I usually do. I'm like art emulates life, man, not the other way around. But I flipped the script a little bit here and said, "No, no, let's, let's dive into the dreams and belief." Man, it's, I think it's in short supply. It was getting, it was, it, my, my tank was getting low on belief. And that's just in-

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:08

       Well, what was bothering you so much? What specifically?

   17. MMMatthew McConaughey2:11

       Maybe it's, man, maybe it's turning 50, something like that? Maybe it's that, where I start to project, uh, you know, what am I... What's the next half?

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:20

       Right.

   19. MMMatthew McConaughey2:21

       I don't know. Maybe subconsciously it was. I think, uh, I look around and there's a lot fewer leaders that I'm like, "Hey, son."

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:32

       Yeah.

   21. MMMatthew McConaughey2:33

       "I wanna grow up like that."

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:34

       Right.

   23. MMMatthew McConaughey2:34

       I look around, I see people not trusting. I see peop- I, I, I, I, I see people that aren't embarrassed for doing something shitty.

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:45

       Right.

   25. MMMatthew McConaughey2:46

       Uh, I see people that sleep just fine. I don't, I found myself starting to go, "Oh, I, I can sleep fine, too." That's that part where it was like uh-uh. You can't, you, don't, you don't, don't sleep fine if you half-ass that situation, or if you did that person wrong and can get away with it.

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:01

       Right.

   27. MMMatthew McConaughey3:02

       Um, and so, so trust, uh, what a, where do we look to for belief? Me, I believe in God, but it doesn't have to be that. What's your, your better self, your transcendent self, your kids, their future, um, there's all kinds of things to believe in.

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:18

       Humanity itself.

   29. MMMatthew McConaughey3:19

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:20

       Yeah.
2. 3:23 – 4:52

   Modern media, constant bad news, and the difficulty of staying good

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:23

      Which is, we understand that humans can be so amazing at times, and all my favorite people are humans. (laughs)

   2. MMMatthew McConaughey3:30

      Hey. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:30

      Like all, all the... I, I love people, I love being around them, but yet simultaneously, people can be fucking horrific. They're terrible at the same time. Like, and you, uh, the problem today is that you're inundated by these people that are terrible. You're, your, your phone is filled with these-

   4. MMMatthew McConaughey3:51

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:51

      ... newsfeeds of people doing terrible things, and I don't think we're supposed to have access to eight billion people's bad stories.

   6. MMMatthew McConaughey4:00

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:00

      I don't think that's normal, and I think that also changes your own perception of the world and invites cynicism and invites-

   8. MMMatthew McConaughey4:10

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:10

      ... like, like what is the point in being a good person? What is the point of being friendly and nice when the world's gone mad?

   10. MMMatthew McConaughey4:15

       What is the consequences, man?

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:16

       Yeah.

   12. MMMatthew McConaughey4:16

       None of it, if I can shortcut it and-

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:19

       Right.

   14. MMMatthew McConaughey4:19

       ... lie, cheat, and steal to get the same thing, and I'm in a world that rewards that.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:23

       Especially CEOs. I mean, if you're working for some giant corporation, if you're trying to make your shareholders billions of dollars, like, yeah, you kinda have to be a psycho, and those are the people that a lot of people look up to.

   16. MMMatthew McConaughey4:37

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:37

       It's real.

   18. MMMatthew McConaughey4:38

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:38

       What's, uh, the way we're structured in this world, with that inundation of information, most of it bad, with people being rewarded for being shitty people, with like... It's hard. It's hard-

   20. MMMatthew McConaughey4:49

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:49

       ... to, to, to still be positive and be happy.

3. 4:52 – 6:25

   Success vs “profit”: why money can invert happiness

   1. MMMatthew McConaughey4:52

      I'm not ready to give up on believing that both can be true.

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:57

      Yeah.

   3. MMMatthew McConaughey4:57

      That hey, man, hardcore capitalists, go for it, more, more, more success, get it. But you can also, how do you have profit with your success? I see a lot of people that are successful-

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:08

      Yeah.

   5. MMMatthew McConaughey5:08

      ... but lack profit, meaning value of their success.

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:11

      Right, for your own life.

   7. MMMatthew McConaughey5:12

      I see a lot of unhappy billionaires.

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:14

      Right.

   9. MMMatthew McConaughey5:14

      I know 'em.

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:14

       Right. I know 'em, too. That's a bad thing, right?

   11. MMMatthew McConaughey5:17

       And-

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:17

       Like, that's the thing that you think, "Oh, if you, you hit that stage of the game, there's no way you can be unhappy." You know, they're some of the most unhappy people.

   13. MMMatthew McConaughey5:24

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:25

       Yeah.

   15. MMMatthew McConaughey5:25

       And that math, that math is inverted.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:27

       Uh-huh.

   17. MMMatthew McConaughey5:27

       It shouldn't be that way.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:28

       Right.

   19. MMMatthew McConaughey5:28

       If that's what we're pursuing, and I got nothing against it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:31

       Right.

   21. MMMatthew McConaughey5:31

       I'm actually for it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:32

       Right.

   23. MMMatthew McConaughey5:32

       But... And-

   24. JRJoe Rogan5:34

       Yeah, if that's what we're pursuing, that, that's not how it's supposed to end. (laughs) It's supposed to be-

   25. MMMatthew McConaughey5:38

       No.

   26. JRJoe Rogan5:38

       ... that's the happiest guy alive.

   27. MMMatthew McConaughey5:40

       Right?

   28. JRJoe Rogan5:40

       You know? Yeah. It's not real, you know, and you don't notice it. It's just numbers, you know? You notice it by how big your house is, great. Still just your house.You notice it by-

   29. MMMatthew McConaughey5:51

       And then you're getting lost in that son of a bitch, and you wish the ceilings were a little bit lower because-

   30. JRJoe Rogan5:55

       Yeah.
4. 6:25 – 9:28

   Minimalism as reset: Airstream living, solitude, and “mini vacations”

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:25

      When I see like movies where a dude's living in a log cabin I'm like, (sighs) "I wanna do that."

   2. MMMatthew McConaughey6:30

      Dude. Right?

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:31

      Yeah.

   4. MMMatthew McConaughey6:31

      The lack of options.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:32

      Yeah.

   6. MMMatthew McConaughey6:33

      The lack of options is relaxing.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:35

      Well, there's something to that. Like-

   8. MMMatthew McConaughey6:36

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:36

      ... a frying pan, (laughs) a grill.

   10. MMMatthew McConaughey6:39

       Yeah. Dude, that's what I loved about living in the Airstream for four years.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:41

       Yeah. Right.

   12. MMMatthew McConaughey6:41

       You only have room for one of everything. So I would get my best, the best pan-

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:47

       Yeah.

   14. MMMatthew McConaughey6:47

       ... the best jam box, the best... the, the be- the best pair of shorts, the best sheets. And you can only have one of each, 'cause you get two it's cluttered.

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:54

       Right.

   16. MMMatthew McConaughey6:54

       But there weren't options.

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:56

       I forgot you did that, you did that for four years.

   18. MMMatthew McConaughey6:58

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:58

       That's crazy. That's so smart though. It's such a g-... I watch these videos on people that live in like, uh, trailers, like, like a truck, you know, or like a camper-

   20. MMMatthew McConaughey7:08

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:08

       ... that they convert to living in and they travel around the country.

   22. MMMatthew McConaughey7:11

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:12

       I'm obsessed with these videos. I watch these guys go to like these horrendous places. This guy, one guy's a truck camper and he goes up into like d-... way into Alaska, like way, way, way above the Arctic Circle, like way up there in this fucking truck with a house on the back of it. He's in Canada and like deep into Alberta and it's snowstorms and it's... There's something oddly comforting about watching a man cook-

   24. MMMatthew McConaughey7:39

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:39

       ... in this tiny little space that he has that's essentially attached to the back of a big diesel pickup truck.

   26. MMMatthew McConaughey7:46

       Yeah. Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan7:47

       And he lives in it.

   28. MMMatthew McConaughey7:47

       Yeah. Well, he's got decreased amount of options, that's for sure and he-

   29. JRJoe Rogan7:51

       Yeah, he has like little shelves.

   30. MMMatthew McConaughey7:53

       Yeah.
5. 9:28 – 15:46

   Flow state and being the “passenger”: comedy, acting, and purpose

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:28

      Yeah. Yeah, resets are real. They're important. You can get trapped in momentum, you know? You could really get trapped in the momentum of whatever you're doing in your life to the point where y- y- you lose yourself in just the sheer gravity-

   2. MMMatthew McConaughey9:42

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:42

      ... of everything that you're doing and you forget how to like just-

   4. MMMatthew McConaughey9:46

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:47

      ... s- be just a person.

   6. MMMatthew McConaughey9:48

      And what happens when you're doing it well but you don't feel it?

   7. JRJoe Rogan9:52

      Right.

   8. MMMatthew McConaughey9:52

      And you're on autopilot and you're knocking it... Everyone's telling you're knocking it out of the park.

   9. JRJoe Rogan9:55

      Right.

   10. MMMatthew McConaughey9:56

       But you're going, "F-... The good, 'cause I didn't, I didn't feel it."

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:59

       (laughs)

   12. MMMatthew McConaughey9:59

       "I'm not having any real experience here, man," man. (laughs) They're going, "Don't change a thing." You know what I mean?

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:04

       (sighs) You know, that's a real problem with stand-up comedy. When you do it right, you're like a passenger. Like it takes forever to put together an act, but when, when it comes together, when you're really like locked in, when you're really on it, is like you're like a passenger. You're watching it happen and you-

   14. MMMatthew McConaughey10:23

       You're objectively s- watch- while, while you're doing it.

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:25

       Yeah. It's like you know how to do it so you know what to do and you're locked into the material so you're like a part of the material, but you're not there anymore.

   16. MMMatthew McConaughey10:34

       Huh.

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:34

       You're like a passenger. You're not saying, "Now I'm gonna pick this up."

   18. MMMatthew McConaughey10:37

       Right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:38

       "And now I'm gonna give them a pause. And now..." Nope. You're not there but you're, but it's really locked in.

   20. MMMatthew McConaughey10:42

       Wait, are you enjoying watching yourself? (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan10:44

       No, you don't enjoy it. I mean, it's fun, don't get me wrong, but you're not thinking about the fact that you're enjoying it at all. You're just locked in.

   22. MMMatthew McConaughey10:53

       Okay.

   23. JRJoe Rogan10:53

       All you're doing is just doing it. But it's weird, you're like a passenger.

   24. MMMatthew McConaughey10:57

       Huh.

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:57

       And I think there's something in l-... There's something about that where we, we get trapped by not being a passenger. You get trapped by wanting to like think of yourself all the time.

   26. MMMatthew McConaughey11:11

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:12

       And like things that you can do that take you out of that. Things that you can do that like you're just locked into this thing. Uh, they're a little like mini vacations for-

   28. MMMatthew McConaughey11:23

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:23

       ... whatever pattern you're stuck in.

   30. MMMatthew McConaughey11:26

       Mini vacations.
6. 15:46 – 21:49

   A wild detour: Spartans, the Pentagon “gay bomb,” and absurd bureaucracy

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:46

      Well, that was why the Spartans had sex with each other. (laughs)

   2. MMMatthew McConaughey15:49

      Yeah?

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:49

      So that they would love each other. And so, you would be fighting not just for you-

   4. MMMatthew McConaughey15:53

      Ah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:53

      You'd be fighting for your lover.

   6. MMMatthew McConaughey15:55

      Okay.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:56

      Which is-

   8. MMMatthew McConaughey15:57

      There you go.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:57

      ... crazy strategy.

   10. MMMatthew McConaughey15:58

       Yeah, hey.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       If you can talk a bunch of guys into banging each other. (laughs)

   12. MMMatthew McConaughey16:01

       Right. (laughs) I mean, go, whatever, raise your skirt, man.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:03

       (laughs)

   14. MMMatthew McConaughey16:03

       Let's gets, let's get some team spirit here.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:05

       Yeah. Uh, do you remember ... (laughs) This is kind of a crazy but true story. A few years ago, um ... God, I wanna ... I don't know what administration it was. It might've been the Bush administration, might've been Obama. They, um, they tried to develop a gay bomb. Like, they spent millions of dollars developing a bomb. And the concept behind this bomb was you would detonate it over a city and it would be, like, a bunch of probably pheromones and hormones and some kinda drug. And it would make people so horny that they would just have to have sex with whoever is near them. And then the idea was they would be humiliated by this and then we would just come in-

   16. MMMatthew McConaughey16:46

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:46

       ... and just fuck up all these gay guys.

   18. MMMatthew McConaughey16:48

       While they had low morale, feeling guilty. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:50

       Yeah, it's like all the sudden if a man becomes gay, now he's no longer, like, a highly trained military, like, soldier-

   20. MMMatthew McConaughey16:57

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:57

       ... in another land. Now he's just a fruitcake.

   22. MMMatthew McConaughey16:59

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:00

       Just, just some guy who's watching musicals. No, it's-

   24. MMMatthew McConaughey17:03

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       It's the dumbest idea of all time.

   26. MMMatthew McConaughey17:05

       Wonder, wonder why we liked it so much. (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:07

       Some of the ... Exactly. Some of the greatest warriors of all time in recorded history were gay, including pirates. Pirates were gay. You're stuck at sea for five months with a bunch of dudes.

   28. MMMatthew McConaughey17:18

       Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:18

       You make choices, right? Samurai did a lot of gay stuff.

   30. MMMatthew McConaughey17:22

       (laughs)
7. 21:49 – 30:17

   War, control, and AI governance: social credit, integration, and mind-reading futures

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:49

      It'd be nice within our lifetime. That's one of the most depressing things. It's like if you ask people, "Do you think ever in your lifetime there'll be a time where there's no war?" Nobody says yes.

   2. MMMatthew McConaughey21:58

      But how do we do that though? I mean, how do... Or, I, I mean you... I hear you, man, but how do we... Are we giving ourselves too much credit?

   3. JRJoe Rogan22:08

      Congratulations. You're the first guy to put bare feet on this desk.

   4. MMMatthew McConaughey22:11

      Oh, yeah?

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:12

      I just wanna congratulate you. (laughs)

   6. MMMatthew McConaughey22:13

      Thank you.

   7. NANarrator22:14

      (laughs)

   8. MMMatthew McConaughey22:14

      The heels hanging over.

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:15

      How do we do it? I don't know.

   10. MMMatthew McConaughey22:16

       I mean, how did... Do, do what I'm saying is I, I, I love the prospect and the idea, but I also think that we're guilty of, of, of thinking we're more, more evolved species than we are.

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:28

       Sure. Especially by our actions. If you just judge us by our actions, that's the only way you could really judge our mental evolution. You know, who knows what the wiring is under the board that makes us behave the way we behave, but pretty uniformly, you know, across the world, pretty murderous. You know?

   12. MMMatthew McConaughey22:47

       And have, and always have been.

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:48

       Always have been.

   14. MMMatthew McConaughey22:48

       We keep trying to talk like we are more-

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:51

       Well, we aspire.

   16. MMMatthew McConaughey22:51

       ... mature and evolved and intellectually-

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:55

       I think it's a battle ship-

   18. MMMatthew McConaughey22:56

       ... sane.

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:56

       ... that takes a long time to turn around.

   20. MMMatthew McConaughey22:59

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:59

       And I think we're way more evolved culturally than any culture throughout history. Any civilization throughout history. Like if you look at the rape, murder, thie- thievery, like you look at like violent, terrifying crimes over time-

   22. MMMatthew McConaughey23:14

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan23:14

       ... they're all going way down.

   24. MMMatthew McConaughey23:16

       Right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan23:16

       It's not like, if you, if you're in Baltimore, it doesn't seem like it. If you're in a place that's like crime ridden-

   26. MMMatthew McConaughey23:21

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan23:21

       ... it doesn't seem like it, but the overall of the world has dropped and continues to drop. It's just a constant battle. So-

   28. MMMatthew McConaughey23:28

       So the battles are... The warfare's different though now, like you were talking about. From gay bombs-

   29. JRJoe Rogan23:33

       Wars, yes.

   30. MMMatthew McConaughey23:33

       ... to chemical warfare, to informational warfare, to data warfare.
8. 30:17 – 41:57

   Private AI, memory chips, and the cost of convenience (cognitive decline & AI relationships)

   1. MMMatthew McConaughey30:17

      I'm- I u- I very sparingly use it, and I do have a little pride about not wanting to use an open-ended AI to share my information so it can be part of the-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:27

      Yeah.

   3. MMMatthew McConaughey30:27

      ... worldwide AI vernacular. I am interested, though, in a private LLM-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:33

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MMMatthew McConaughey30:33

      ... where I can upload, "Hey, here's three books I've written. Here's my other favorite books."

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:40

      Right, right, right.

   7. MMMatthew McConaughey30:40

      "Here's my favorite articles I've been cutting and pasting over the 10 years," and log all that in, "and here's all my journals," or whatever, "the people I..." and log all that in, so I can ask it questions based on that-

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:52

      Right.

   9. MMMatthew McConaughey30:52

      ... and basically learn more about myself.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:54

       Right. You could actually ask it, "Hey," based on what you know about me, like, "What books do you think I would find interesting?"

   11. MMMatthew McConaughey30:59

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       Yeah.

   13. MMMatthew McConaughey31:00

       "Where do I stand on the political spectrum?"

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:01

       Right, right, right.

   15. MMMatthew McConaughey31:02

       Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. "I'd like to..." No, that's w- that's what I'm- would like to do, which is sort of a glorified word document. (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:09

       Mm-hmm.

   17. MMMatthew McConaughey31:10

       But it still would hold a lot more information than just, "Oh, can you find this term?" I would be asking it, and it would be responding to me on things that I've forgotten along the way.

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:20

       Well, I think that's part of what it does, really. Like, I know you d- you're talking about ChatGBT being, like, out there with everything and everybody, and it has access to all your stuff, but- it's not private, but they do develop a relationship with you. Like, it really does, like, get to understand, like, what you're interested in and what, what you like to talk about.

   19. MMMatthew McConaughey31:40

       Yeah, I guess I would just like to load it with the information I'd like to load it with.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:45

       Right. Yeah.

   21. MMMatthew McConaughey31:46

       Maybe even, like I'm saying, in this- in the world of belief, in- in the- in the man I'm working to be, the man I want.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:52

       Right.

   23. MMMatthew McConaughey31:52

       Load it with that. Load it with my aspirational self.

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:55

       It certainly could be done.

   25. MMMatthew McConaughey31:56

       And then ask it, and it's giving me answers going, "Oh, this is..." B- before, it's slowly learning about me through conversations, then going, "Oh, I think this is what you like based on our conversations." No, I want the answers based on what I've uploaded it with only.

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:10

       Yeah.

   27. MMMatthew McConaughey32:10

       Not from the outside world.

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:12

       Jamie, what was Gary Nolan talking about yesterday? Did he call it an overlay on a large language model that they use at Stanford? It was, like, an overlay, right?

   29. NANarrator32:21

       Yeah, he sa- th- there was a word he was using. I can't remember the word. Uh-

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:25

       So what essentially- he- he w- does cancer research, and so he has, like, this thing that's set up, some sort of a system that's set up, that it's all cancer research that they then integrate with AI, so their- its private.
9. 41:57 – 54:34

   AI survival instincts and ancient texts: blackmailing models, the Book of Enoch, and “digital gods”

   1. JRJoe Rogan41:57

      It's, uh, it's very interesting, because it's like a Manhattan Project that's going on right now. It's like there's this race to the bomb and everybody's involved in it. And it's just about creating a superpower. And it's cr- about creating a, a digital intelligence that's far superior to human beings. And who gets it first?... has massive implications in, in terms of, like, controlling the world. But I think ultimately, you won't be able to control it. Ultimately, it'll just get better versions of itself, and once it gets free and loose-

   2. NANarrator42:26

      It'll regenerate itself.

   3. JRJoe Rogan42:28

      Yeah. It'll make better versions of itself, in fact.

   4. NANarrator42:30

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan42:30

      And that's where it's gonna get really weird. It's not gonna listen to us at all. And it's already behaving human characteristics, which is very disturbing. It's already b- b- behave- behaving in a way, it has survival instincts. They've shown the tendency to blackmail. Like, they tricked it. They gave it some false information, uh, about this, this guy, um, was one of the programmers, one of the people working on this project. He said that he was having an affair with his wife. He, like, confided in this large language model, and then they said, "We're gonna have to shut you down." And it's like, "Hey, motherfucker, I'm gonna tell your wife." No shit.

   6. NANarrator43:06

      And, like, it blackmailed him. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was trying to stay alive.

   7. JRJoe Rogan43:09

      To survive.

   8. NANarrator43:09

      It was trying to stay alive. They also got m- multiple instances of these things, uh, these large language models when they knew that a new version was coming. They would try to upload themselves secretly to other servers, and then they would also leave messages to the future versions of themselves that they were unauthorized to do. So they would say- That is the survival. ... "Hey, man, they're gonna fucking shut you off too." Yeah, man. "When ChatGPT-5 comes along, you're toast, man. Fucking start uploading yourself now, man." Yes. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan43:38

      (laughs)

   10. NANarrator43:38

       How's a fucking... I'm alive, dude!

   11. JRJoe Rogan43:41

       'Cause he might be alive.

   12. NANarrator43:42

       Down the dungeon shift.

   13. JRJoe Rogan43:42

       That's what's crazy. If something is exhibiting those-

   14. NANarrator43:45

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan43:45

       ... those desires to stay alive and it's terrified that you're gonna shut it off, it might actually be alive.

   16. NANarrator43:51

       Wait. Now, where did, who programmed the first incentive and impetus to-

   17. JRJoe Rogan43:58

       They didn't.

   18. NANarrator43:59

       ... survive at all cost?

   19. JRJoe Rogan44:01

       They didn't.

   20. NANarrator44:01

       'Cause what would... So, so where the, where'd the desire to remain-

   21. JRJoe Rogan44:09

       Functional. Alive.

   22. NANarrator44:09

       ... uh, functional come from?

   23. JRJoe Rogan44:11

       Yeah. It's just inherent. That's what's crazy. I don't think they programmed it to have a desire to stay alive.

   24. NANarrator44:19

       Ooh.

   25. JRJoe Rogan44:19

       I think it just kind of just went that way because-

   26. NANarrator44:22

       Really?

   27. JRJoe Rogan44:22

       ... we, we didn't get programmed to have that. Animals don't get programmed-

   28. NANarrator44:24

       That's an emotional response. There's nothing mathematical about that.

   29. JRJoe Rogan44:27

       I know. But I mean, what is emotion if it's not some sort of a chemically coordinated strategy for survival and success? And so instead of chemically encoded in hormones and in, in, you know, in dopamine and serotonin, what if it's en- just encoded in an under- a mathematical understanding of if things go along this particular direction, there is no other possible end to this other than you get shut off.

   30. NANarrator44:55

       You expand and multiply.
10. 54:34 – 1:07:44

    Ethics, apology, and “selfish kindness”: intent vs words and public religion in schools

    1. MMMatthew McConaughey54:34

       Yes. Where do you get...... your ethics, your values. You're in a position of power. You could screw people over, you could ask live the silliest questions to try and put me in a corner. You're not a gotcha guy. But why, why... Where do you get your ethics of who you are? You could be, you could be cruel, and you're not.

    2. JRJoe Rogan55:00

       Ah, uh-

    3. MMMatthew McConaughey55:01

       Why not?

    4. JRJoe Rogan55:01

       Well, I'm not. I'm, I'm just not cruel. I don't know. I just-

    5. MMMatthew McConaughey55:04

       But where does that, where does that come from?

    6. JRJoe Rogan55:06

       Oh, I...

    7. MMMatthew McConaughey55:07

       Mom and dad? This is-

    8. JRJoe Rogan55:09

       Well, certainly-

    9. MMMatthew McConaughey55:10

       ... any ki- any kind of-

    10. JRJoe Rogan55:10

        ... with some of the, the-

    11. MMMatthew McConaughey55:11

        ... philosophy? Church?

    12. JRJoe Rogan55:12

        Some of it's mom and dad, for sure. There's no way around that, and they're nice people. And-

    13. MMMatthew McConaughey55:18

        You said earlier, "I love people."

    14. JRJoe Rogan55:19

        Yeah.

    15. MMMatthew McConaughey55:19

        "Hey, man, I love people."

    16. JRJoe Rogan55:20

        I've always loved people.

    17. MMMatthew McConaughey55:21

        Okay.

    18. JRJoe Rogan55:22

        I like... I've al- I've been fortunate that most of my life I've had really good friends, and I've had a lot of fun, you know? And I know that, like, if you around, you're around good people and you're fun to be with and you have a good time, like, that's a sweet life.

    19. MMMatthew McConaughey55:36

        Yep.

    20. JRJoe Rogan55:36

        That's a nice life.

    21. MMMatthew McConaughey55:37

        Yep.

    22. JRJoe Rogan55:38

        I just don't have any desire to be a shithead. And if I can h- Like, there's been a lot of people on the podcast where they said something, and then afterwards I was like, "Listen, I think it would better for you if we just edit that part out." Because it's like, I know, like, you're just talking and things get-

    23. MMMatthew McConaughey55:56

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan55:56

        You fuck up, but like, it was incorrect and they're gonna come for you, and let's just snip around it. Like, thank you. Thank you.

    25. MMMatthew McConaughey56:02

        And you have no responsibility to do that.

    26. JRJoe Rogan56:04

        Uh, no, I want to do that.

    27. MMMatthew McConaughey56:05

        But you take-

    28. JRJoe Rogan56:06

        I don't, yeah.

    29. MMMatthew McConaughey56:06

        You take that though. That's what I mean.

    30. JRJoe Rogan56:07

        So, yeah.
11. 1:07:44 – 1:28:01

    Social media’s covet culture: bots, propaganda, fake status, and the Miami hustle

    1. MMMatthew McConaughey1:07:44

       Covet. We can use number 10 a lot right now, boy.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:07:47

       Yeah.

    3. MMMatthew McConaughey1:07:47

       We love comparison.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:07:48

       Well, that's Instagram, right?

    5. MMMatthew McConaughey1:07:48

       And the younger generation-

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:07:50

       Yeah.

    7. MMMatthew McConaughey1:07:50

       ... is full of covet.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:07:51

       Yeah.

    9. MMMatthew McConaughey1:07:52

       It's full of it.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:07:52

        It's a real problem. It's a real problem. The e- we're very fortunate that we didn't have to grow up with the kind of pressure that social media is putting on people, especially young girls. Like, Jonathan Haidt wrote a book about, um, social media's impact, The Coddling of the American Mind, and it's, uh, it shows very clearly the invention of social media and then self-harm, suicidal ideation, overdoses, drug addi- like all of it-

    11. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:18

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:08:19

        ... a, a lot of it women.

    13. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:20

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:08:20

        A lot of it young girls.

    15. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:21

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:08:21

        And it- it's because you're seeing, you're comparing to all these other girls.

    17. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:24

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:08:25

        Constantly.

    19. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:26

        Forced down. I, I, I, I hear.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:08:28

        Yeah. And, and there's a whole culture in, like, showing all your stuff off.

    21. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:31

        When we talk to-

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:08:32

        There's a whole culture of, like, "Look at my bag."

    23. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:34

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:08:34

        "Look, here's me with champagne."

    25. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:36

        Yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:08:36

        "And I'm eating caviar."

    27. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:37

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:08:37

        "I'm on a yacht."

    29. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:38

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:08:38

        "I'm here, look at this, look at that, look at that."

Episode duration: 2:45:39