Joe Rogan Experience #2395 - Mariana van Zeller

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays)

Mariana van Zeller 0:12 Is there really nothing for you? That glass of wine is so nasty. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:15 Yeah. W- one glass of wine I do not think is bad for you. Uh, it's not-

Mariana van Zeller 0:18 Yeah, that's all I have.

Joe Rogan 0:19 ... great for you.

Mariana van Zeller 0:20 Right.

Joe Rogan 0:20 But a glass of wine relaxes you and there's probably benefit in being relaxed.

Mariana van Zeller 0:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:25 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 0:25 I agree.

Joe Rogan 0:26 But the problem was I own a nightclub and I'm there all the time.

Mariana van Zeller 0:29 Yeah, so you're drinking an half in a glass.

Joe Rogan 0:31 And I'm, you know, out with the fellas and then I'd maybe have a couple glasses of whiskey on a podcast with some guys.

Mariana van Zeller 0:36 Right.

Joe Rogan 0:36 And then ... When I stopped, I was like, "Oh my God, I feel so much better." (laughs) Like, why was I poisoning myself? (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 0:42 Really, you did feel much better?

Joe Rogan 0:43 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 0:43 Immediately you felt it?

Joe Rogan 0:44 Yeah, because, uh, when you think about it ... We rolling?

Narrator 0:47 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:48 So, when I stopped drinking, uh, I was probably having, like, two or three glasses of some kind of alcohol a night, two or three nights a week.

Mariana van Zeller 0:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:59 And then I'd go out to dinner with my wife and have, like, a glass or two of wine. That's a lot of drinks-

Mariana van Zeller 1:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05 ... over the week. And you don't think it's much 'cause you're not drunk, but the next day I'd be like, ugh, like a little draggy.

Mariana van Zeller 1:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:11 Like when I go to the gym. And that's gone.

Mariana van Zeller 1:15 That's great.

Joe Rogan 1:15 Yeah. Just-

Mariana van Zeller 1:16 I wish I had that ass strength. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:18 (laughs) It's not, it's not even strength. It was easy to do.

Mariana van Zeller 1:21 Was it?

Joe Rogan 1:21 I don't ... Yeah, I didn't even miss it.

Mariana van Zeller 1:22 Oh, that glass... You know, I, I had, uh, I haven't had a glass of anything for a week now. I had surgery exactly a week ago.

Joe Rogan 1:28 What'd you have done?

Mariana van Zeller 1:29 An appendectomy.

Joe Rogan 1:30 Ooh.

Mariana van Zeller 1:31 Yeah. I was, uh, it was exactly last Thursday, which is why I have these, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:35 Whoa.

Mariana van Zeller 1:35 ... marks on my arms. Um, yeah, I thought I had to go to the bathroom all day, and then my husband forced me 'cause I had stomach pain, and I just thought I had food poisoning or something, so I kept on going to the toilet. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:46 Those are scary 'cause they burst.

Mariana van Zeller 1:47 And nothing was happening, yeah. Yeah, it didn't burst, but, uh, my husband forced me to go to the hospital when I got there, and yeah, it was an a- appendicitis-

Joe Rogan 1:54 Whoa.

Mariana van Zeller 1:54 ... and I had emergency appendectomy the next morning. Um, but, so, uh, which recovery has been to- totally fine, but I haven't wanted to drink because I wanted to make sure I was gonna be able to come here-

Joe Rogan 2:07 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 2:07 ... today. And, uh, I wanted to recover faster, so, um, yeah, so I think-

Joe Rogan 2:12 But you miss it?

Mariana van Zeller 2:12 ... it's the longest I've ever been without drinking. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:15 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 2:15 A week.

Joe Rogan 2:15 Well, you have a very, very stressful job.

Mariana van Zeller 2:19 Stressful job. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:19 (laughs) It's insanely stressful. You are one of the most boots-on-the-ground journalists I've ever met. You go to some really dangerous and terrifying places. Like I still get nightmares, uh, from that video where you showed me where you went to the, the jungle where they process cocaine.

Mariana van Zeller 2:36 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:37 And then walked out with them, hiked out with them through the ... I mean, that was just nuts.

Mariana van Zeller 2:43 Yeah. Don't, don't mean to cause you nightmares, but, uh, I love doing what I do. You know, we've done five seasons of Trafficked. The last season just premiered a couple of months ago, um, it's available now on Hulu, and, uh, unfortunately it's the last season of Trafficked, um-

Joe Rogan 2:58 Why is that?

Mariana van Zeller 3:00 I think a few reasons. I think it's, you know, it's a risky show to put together, right? It's a costly show. It's, um ... Disney decided that NatGeo should be doing more natural history and animal programming and, uh, yeah, I think Trafficked is just a difficult, it is a really challenging show to put together. But I'm incredibly proud of the work we've done and this last season, the fifth season has some of my favorite stories we've done. And, um, I'm now starting a podcast, oh, you know.

Joe Rogan 3:28 Nice.

Mariana van Zeller 3:29 I launched it yesterday.

Joe Rogan 3:30 Congrat- well, about time.

Mariana van Zeller 3:30 So now I'm your competition. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:33 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 3:33 It's about time, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:34 Um, someone will do your show again somewhere else, though.

Mariana van Zeller 3:37 Yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 3:37 It's too good.

Mariana van Zeller 3:38 ... this is what I'm hoping is with the podcast, it's on YouTube and I'm growing it into something bigger. So, it starts with interviews, the podcast called The Hidden Third, uh, because an estimated 35% of the global economy are these black and gray markets, which is what I've reported on for-

Joe Rogan 3:51 Whoa.

Mariana van Zeller 3:51 ... 12 or so years.

Joe Rogan 3:51 Wait a minute. Really?

Mariana van Zeller 3:52 It's crazy number, right? Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:54 35% of the economy?

Mariana van Zeller 3:55 An estimated 35%, which is what economists call The Hidden Third. So, we're not just talking about illegal activities and goods like drugs and scams and whatnot, and guns, we're also talking about un- so the gray, that's the black market, and then there's the gray market which are the, is the irregular, unregulated part of the economy. So, untaxed work, untaxed goods, everything from like, the man selling fruit on the corner, um, you know, to, um, other, other jobs and, and goods that are untaxed. But this actually has an effect on all of us because it's less money that comes in for schools and infrastructure and hospitals and all the stuff we need. And then apart from all that we know which is the black market and how that affects us all, which is, you know, whether you talk about guns or drugs or immigration. I mean, it all has a direct impact on our lives. So, with this podcast, what I really wanted to do is after reporting on these black markets for 20 years, is I wanted to have a place like this where I can have-

Joe Rogan 4:50 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 4:51 ... intimate, raw, you know, sometimes difficult conversations with people who have lived or are living on the other side of the law, and, um, who, uh, you know, I wanted to figure out why somebody decides to become a smuggler, a trafficker, a scammer, a, a bookie, a, you know, all these crazy lives that people lead. Uh, see how it affects us all, understand why the, what they do affects us all, and also, I think the most important part for me, which has always been, and I, I've talked about this with you, which is trying to understand if, um, the circumstances were different, if it could have been you and me doing that, you know, geographically-

Joe Rogan 5:29 I think under, most certainly-

Mariana van Zeller 5:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:31 ... that that's the case.

Mariana van Zeller 5:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:32 Yeah, most certainly that's the case geographically.

Mariana van Zeller 5:34 Oh, uh, 100% geographically.

Joe Rogan 5:36 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 5:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:36 If you have no options and you're stuck in a third world-

Mariana van Zeller 5:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:40 ... country, guess what?

Mariana van Zeller 5:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:41 You know, you do what you gotta do.

Mariana van Zeller 5:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:43 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 5:43 It was that story that we did in, uh, the same episode you mentioned, the cocaine trafficking, which I will never forget, which was the kid who was carrying in his backpack, right? He was 16, 17-year-old kid carrying cocaine, 20 kilos of cocaine on his back for days on end on the, in the jungles, had seen so many of his friends being killed in front of him by rebel gangs, rival gangs. And, uh, when he, um, you know, when I asked him, "Why are you doing what you do?" He says, "Because I've always wanted to be a dentist. I wanna go to school and be a dentist, but my family's too poor and they can't afford my education, and the only job that I have available for me now is, uh, is doing this cocaine trafficking or, you know, carrying cocaine on my back."And these are stories I hear all the time, so the i- the idea of being able to place ourselves in people's shoes and understand that, yes, even the people that we consider the bad guys could be me and you, as, as you know, has always been very important for me. So the podcast allows me to do that.

Joe Rogan 6:36 Well, that's great.

Mariana van Zeller 6:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:37 When, when you say that, like, it's one-third, how much of it is stuff that's not dangerous, like selling fruit on the side of the road, and-

Mariana van Zeller 6:45 So it's-

Joe Rogan 6:46 ... untaxed labor?

Mariana van Zeller 6:47 ... i- i- it's difficult to have exact numbers, but the estimate is that about 15%, 15 to 20% are black markets, and the rest are gray market. So the totality is around 35%, an estimate.

Joe Rogan 7:01 Okay.

Mariana van Zeller 7:01 Um, but I mean, the-

Joe Rogan 7:02 So it's kind of half.

Mariana van Zeller 7:03 Yeah, more or less.

Joe Rogan 7:04 Half dangerous stuff.

Mariana van Zeller 7:06 Yeah (laughs) half-

Joe Rogan 7:06 Half people are just not-

Mariana van Zeller 7:07 ... untaxed, unregulated stuff.

Joe Rogan 7:08 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 7:09 But I mean, they also mix, right? Because, um, you know, a lot of times what happens in one side affects the other, you know? W- we, um ... One of the, the really interest- t- the, the, the things that I think we've talked about a lot is, uh, y- I think this number shocks a lot of people, but if you think of the drug trade alone, it's $600 billion. That's the estimate, anywhere between 300 and $600 billion every year, just from the drug trade alone. Um, you know, these, these are crazy numbers.

Joe Rogan 7:42 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 7:42 And so it's, it's not so out of the box to think that, yeah, this is a har- a l- a large percentage of our economy.

Joe Rogan 7:50 Is it difficult to get people to come and sit with you on a podcast and talk about illegal activities?

Mariana van Zeller 7:56 Yes, but it's a- it was also on the show. I think the harder part is that on the show, we figured out a way of how to make them comfortable because I would go to them, right? On the podcast, it's harder to convince an active trafficker or (laughs) smuggler to come and sit down in my office.

Joe Rogan 8:13 Right, they would think it's a setup.

Mariana van Zeller 8:14 So yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:16 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 8:16 So, uh, you know, a lot of times, the meetings that we had on the show happened in undisclosed locations, in vans, for example, or in places that they felt comfortable with, their, you know, drug labs or their drug houses or their homes sometimes. So this has been a little bit harder, but we're, we're making it, we're making it work. We're having ... We're hoping that it grows, so then we actually have money to start traveling more and going to some of these places.

Joe Rogan 8:40 Is this something that you always wanted to do, like do a podcast, or is it something that w- was a necessity when the show was canceled, or did you just think, "Maybe I should branch out?"

Mariana van Zeller 8:51 I've always wanted to do it, and I tried h- ... We had done an iteration of it a couple of years ago, but I just didn't have the time because I was traveling, you know, half the year or more, um, for Trafficked. So it was really hard to do a weekly podcast. It was almost impossible. But I spent so much time talking to people, uh, who have really interesting backgrounds. And then we use only five minutes of their interview if, if that.

Joe Rogan 9:16 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 9:16 And these are fascinating people that, again-

Joe Rogan 9:19 Do you have access to that f- footage?

Mariana van Zeller 9:22 The footage, oh, that I-

Joe Rogan 9:23 The footage that you edited out?

Mariana van Zeller 9:25 Uh, yes. I mean, yes.

Joe Rogan 9:27 But do you have access to it? Like are you allowed to use it?

Mariana van Zeller 9:29 Or, or is it a- ... If it's owned by, by National Geographic-

Joe Rogan 9:31 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 9:31 ... it's owned by National Geographic.

Joe Rogan 9:33 I wonder if they would sign off on letting you put that on your podcast 'cause that would be fascinating as well because I g- I bet there's a lot that was missed on the editing floor.

Mariana van Zeller 9:40 Oh, you have no idea.

Joe Rogan 9:41 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 9:41 Yes, absolutely. But the good news is that I have still all these-

Joe Rogan 9:44 Come on, Nat Geo.

Mariana van Zeller 9:45 (laughs) I know, it's-

Joe Rogan 9:45 Let her have the footage. It would only help.

Mariana van Zeller 9:47 But I have all the contacts, so as lo- ... As soon as I start bran- ... As this starts building up, the podcast, the hope is that, um, I'll build it myself from the ground up 'cause all the contacts are mine, you know, all the expertise is mine.

Joe Rogan 10:00 Yeah, but cont- ... You have contacts with, like, assassins and drug dealers.

Mariana van Zeller 10:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:03 Do y- y- ... Text each other? "Hey, what's up?" (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 10:05 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:06 Send emojis. (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 10:07 Abs- ... I mean, yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:08 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 10:08 I mean, these are people.

Joe Rogan 10:09 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 10:10 I mean, the assassins less so, but the traffickers and the smugglers and the scammers, absolutely I'm still in touch with a lot of them.

Joe Rogan 10:16 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 10:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:17 Do you have, like, a file where you're like, "Th- th- ... Like you have them-"

Mariana van Zeller 10:21 (laughs) Want to see my secret files?

Joe Rogan 10:22 Lo- ... But do you have them, like, labeled, like, "Super shady."

Mariana van Zeller 10:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:25 "Less than d- ... Just-"

Mariana van Zeller 10:27 The black, the gray. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:27 "... unfortunate circumstances."

Mariana van Zeller 10:29 The, like-

Joe Rogan 10:30 Cold-blooded killers.

Mariana van Zeller 10:32 (laughs) It's all under my encrypted messaging apps. Um, no, uh, no, you know, it's really crazy because of the success of Trafficked, the amount of messages I still get on Instagram and social media on a weekly basis from people who want to be on the show. Now with the podcast as well, I'm hoping that it will grow into that. But people just showing me their drugs and their guns. They sh- show me photos of this stuff that they're doing, and they, they, they-

Joe Rogan 10:58 Is it because these people feel like they're gonna die anyway, like they're gonna probably get killed?

Mariana van Zeller 11:02 A lot of them are, you know-

Joe Rogan 11:03 And they're not afraid?

Mariana van Zeller 11:04 One of the most interesting people we filmed for this last season of Trafficked was a guy that we called El Gringo, so it was the premier e- episode of this season. It was about cartel. It was called Cartel USA. It's about the cartel presence in United States. I've reported extensively on cartels in Mexico, right, and in Colombia and in other parts, but I haven't actually spent a lot of time with a cartel here or seen what kind of influence they have in the US. And, uh, so I had this idea, okay, let's try to figure out how massive their presence is, is here, how they make the money, how do they s- ... They distribute the drugs, and what impact is it having i- in, um, in America. And what I found was, uh, um, a v- several very surprising facts. Um, the story actually starts in Sinaloa 'cause I had to go there to get access to the people in the US. So I had to go to the top bosses to be able to, to get the green light to then film their operations here in the US.

Joe Rogan 11:57 What is that like?

Mariana van Zeller 11:59 Sinaloa, I mean, it's the place in the world that I've reported most, more from. Um, apart from the United States, I've reported more from Sinaloa than anywhere else. Uh, I have good contacts there. I have an incredible local journalist c- called Miguel Angel Vega, who's-... called. He's a, a fixer. He's the guy that any journalist in the world who wants to get access to the cartel will contact him, and then he has his own contacts. He's, uh, just an incredibly brave journalist with his own contacts. And then he, um, basically contacts his people, and then they decide if they want to talk or not. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 12:33 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 12:33 ... a lot of times they don't, and a lo- sometimes... I've done this so many times that, that by now they trust me. They know that I'm not law enforcement, and so they allow me to film their operations. So, we've, I filmed super meth labs, uh, super labs-

Joe Rogan 12:47 Whoa.

Mariana van Zeller 12:47 ... of meth there. I filmed a fentanyl lab. I filmed a guy cooking fentanyl. We were all full, you know, masked up, and I filmed the whole operation. Um, I mean, uh, I filmed, uh, sicarios. I've, uh, I've... Yeah, I, I filmed more from Sinaloa than (laughs) anywhere else in the world.

Joe Rogan 13:05 But it's gotta be very scary to go there and hang out with those people. Is, is, do they put boundaries on-

Mariana van Zeller 13:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:14 ... topics?

Mariana van Zeller 13:15 Uh, um, not on top... Yes, for example, I'm not... Even though I'm in Sinaloa, I'm not supposed to ask which cartel people work for, where it's obvious that when you're in Sinaloa, everyone works for the Sinaloa cartel. Or, I mean, everybody that's involved in the cartel works for the Sinaloa cartel. Um, there are other cartels trying to make, um, uh, headway in the, in that region, but usually it's all Sinaloa. Um, so you're not supposed to ask, uh, who exactly they work for, and, um, any other... some questions about money, for example, how much money they make. People don't like to a- be... ask that. But I always ask (laughs) all those questions anyway. And I, I, you know, you get a sense whether you're pushing it too far or not.

Joe Rogan 13:52 Right. Have you ever had a moment when you're doing that where, like, "I think I crossed the line"?

Mariana van Zeller 13:58 Um, we had a mo- I had a moment where we stayed too long. So, it was a day we were doing a story. It was for season one. It was about guns, and, uh, how... about American guns, the flow of American guns to Mexico.

Joe Rogan 14:10 That was when you got the police people-

Mariana van Zeller 14:13 Yep, that's exactly right.

Joe Rogan 14:13 ... that were selling drugs illegally?

Mariana van Zeller 14:15 Yeah, yeah, guns.

Joe Rogan 14:15 So, for people that didn't see that episode, it's quite fascinating. Police in Los Angeles, dirty cops-

Mariana van Zeller 14:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:21 ... were loading up their trunks with guns that they've confiscated-

Mariana van Zeller 14:26 Yep.

Joe Rogan 14:26 ... and then selling them across the border in Mexico.

Mariana van Zeller 14:29 Oh, they were selling it to gang members or affiliate of cartel members in LA, who would then, uh-

Joe Rogan 14:35 They would cross the border.

Mariana van Zeller 14:36 ... ship it. Yeah, they would cross the border-

Joe Rogan 14:36 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 14:36 ... and ship it to LA. Yeah, we visit-

Joe Rogan 14:38 It's crazy.

Mariana van Zeller 14:39 It was, it was a scene... Yeah, it started with a scene in... That episode started with a scene in LA where we interviewed a guy who goes by the name of T, and, uh, he had a room packed with rifles. And when I started asking that... him where they were from, he was like, "Oh, this one was confiscated. I... We have an LAPD, um, contact that, you know, sells us a lot of our drugs."

Joe Rogan 14:58 I just don't understand what benefit to them.

Mariana van Zeller 15:02 To the police?

Joe Rogan 15:03 Yeah, for them-

Mariana van Zeller 15:04 Money?

Joe Rogan 15:04 No. Uh, b- but for them... No, for them to talk to you.

Mariana van Zeller 15:07 Which, which one? The-

Joe Rogan 15:08 The... Any of them. Like, the... especially the cops.

Mariana van Zeller 15:12 So, uh, it's, uh, the question that I get the m-... The cops d- didn't talk-... We didn't get the cops to talk to us.

Joe Rogan 15:15 So, you got it from the people that sold-

Mariana van Zeller 15:18 We got it from the gang member, yeah, who sold the guns.

Joe Rogan 15:20 That the cops sold the guns to.

Mariana van Zeller 15:22 Yes. So, I've spo- I've spoken to cops who are doing amazing work here in the US in combating drug trafficking and, and gun trafficking, and in Mexico as well. Um, but, um, but these, we're talking about corrupt cops, so we... Yeah, that was not the case. Uh, this was a gang member telling me how he had acquired those guns from LAPD, confiscated guns that he had acquired from LAPD.

Joe Rogan 15:43 But even that, like, what would be the benefit to him-

Mariana van Zeller 15:45 For him?

Joe Rogan 15:45 ... to talk to you?

Mariana van Zeller 15:46 I think... For... So, in that case, it went back to my contacts in Sinaloa, and I think it's three reasons why people talk to us. Think the first one is ego. People want to boast. And if you're part of the Sinaloa cartel or even if you're a boss in the Sinaloa cartel, and you're... there's an ongoing war between you, a turf war between you and another gang like the C and, and j- JNG, uh, which is a cartel, uh, Jalisco, um, they're, y- they're fighting for power, right? So, here's a opportunity to show how powerful you were, are. So, it's ego, right?

Joe Rogan 16:18 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 16:18 And a lot of these people that talk to me, I don't... You know, very often, or more often than not, it's not the bosses or the kingpins that I'm talking to, right? It's the sicarios. It's the middle and low-level people. It's the traffickers. It's the chemists, the smugglers. It's not the kingpins. And for them, they spend their whole lives doing something that sometimes their own families don't know they're... they do. Like, I remember, uh, an episode we did about counterfeit money, people who make fake US, uh, dollars and euros in Peru, in Lima. And this guy, like shiny eyes, so excited, showing me how he finishes these bills to make it look and feel and smell exactly like $100 bill. And when I asked him... And he's a taxi driver by day, and he does this by night. And, and, uh, and I was asking him, "Uh, so why did you accept talking to us?" He says, "Look, my wife doesn't even know how good I am. I am the best of the best at doing this. Like, nobody in the whole world can make this as well as I do, and I always wanted to be able to talk to somebody and show off how good my skills are."

Joe Rogan 17:24 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 17:24 "And you're giving me an opportunity to do this."

Joe Rogan 17:26 That's crazy. (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 17:27 So, I think ego plays a huge role, and then impunity, like in places like Mexico, so much corruption. Like, what's the downside to talking-

Joe Rogan 17:34 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 17:34 ... to this woman who comes and asks funny questions, right?

Joe Rogan 17:37 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 17:38 And then, and then I think it's the wanting to be understood. I think everybody-

Joe Rogan 17:42 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 17:42 ... wants to be understood, and they know they're considered the bad guys. They know that, uh, you know, um, you know, there's so much stigma around what they do. And I tell everybody, "I'm here to try to understand what you do. I'm not here to judge you, because I think it's much more important to understand why you do what you do."

Joe Rogan 17:59 The guy who makes counterfeit bills, what's his process?

Mariana van Zeller 18:02 Oh, it's freaking fascinating.

Joe Rogan 18:03 'Cause does he replicate a, a dollar bill with all, like, the-

Mariana van Zeller 18:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:07 ... little things inside of it?

Mariana van Zeller 18:09 Everything. It was incredible. So, there's different... There's the graphics person. There's the printer, and then, then he is... He does the finishing job. He's the finisher.And, uh, he said he was the best finisher in the job and I said he's... I, I started calling him Cristiano Ronaldo, the Portuguese football player, 'cause he's the finisher in soccer. (laughs) So I called him Ronaldo. "Okay, you're Ronaldo." And he uses... he uses a, a, um, it's kinda like a porridge that I used to eat when I was a kid in, in Portugal. It's called like a... it's a type of like a Cerelac. You don't, you guys don't have it here, but it's like a, a meal, um, what do you call that? Like cornmeal.

Joe Rogan 18:42 Oatmeal? Cornmeal?

Mariana van Zeller 18:42 Like a cornmeal. Um, and he uses that, and I saw him using it. Uh, um, it's not Cerelac actually, it's Maizena, which is another brand. (laughs) But it... he uses this sort of cornmeal to finish these bills to make it the consistency when you touch it, feel exactly like the real stuff. And-

Joe Rogan 18:59 Is it made with the same paper?

Mariana van Zeller 19:01 Uh, no, it's a different paper. The paper is the hardest part to get, 'cause the paper you can only get, um, in the US Federal Reserves or wherever the paper comes from, but it's not-

Joe Rogan 19:11 But that seems like an easy thing to duplicate.

Mariana van Zeller 19:13 So, I know, but that's... Yeah. It's-

Joe Rogan 19:13 Paper.

Mariana van Zeller 19:14 ... not very hard, and particularly if you put the, you know, all the little creases and curves and what... Yes, makes it-

Joe Rogan 19:21 What about those little things that you can only see with like a flashlight and stuff like that?

Mariana van Zeller 19:24 They, they have ways around that too.

Joe Rogan 19:26 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 19:26 It was incredible. We brought some home, haven't used it, it's at my office. (laughs) But it is... I mean, it can fool-

Joe Rogan 19:32 Isn't it illegal to possess that stuff?

Mariana van Zeller 19:34 Okay, so we actually didn't bring the actual... We, we brought the cut-outs so I... we wouldn't be able to use it, but it's like... it's in the background of my podcast, so... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:41 Whoa.

Mariana van Zeller 19:42 It's, yeah.

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Mariana van Zeller 20:53 (laughs) You can see the cut-out, and it's really... it's phenomenal. It's crazy.

Joe Rogan 20:58 What... How many bills that are counterfeit make their way into our currency?

Mariana van Zeller 21:03 Oh, this-

Joe Rogan 21:03 Is this it right here?

Mariana van Zeller 21:04 Yeah. This is it. This is the finisher. Yeah. Here he is. And you see, he's teaching, he's showing me.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 21:10 And there's a glue too. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:13 And so he's making it seem more weathered, more worn?

Mariana van Zeller 21:16 Yeah, and they make it seem weathered and worn.

Joe Rogan 21:19 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 21:19 Yeah. It's... It's... It's so crazy.

Joe Rogan 21:23 And how, how much-

Mariana van Zeller 21:25 Cooked his porridge, you see. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:27 Yeah. And so he scrubs it down a little bit?

Mariana van Zeller 21:29 Yeah. Yeah, with a toothbrush.

Joe Rogan 21:31 How-

Mariana van Zeller 21:31 All stuff that you bought at the store, like next door, that, that, you know, they-

Joe Rogan 21:35 How much currency goes through this guy's production?

Mariana van Zeller 21:39 Oh, I cannot remember. This was five years ago with season one, but it was a lot. And it's the US Secret Services that are in charge of, uh, going after these guys. So we actually saw the real money being made when we came back to the US and, um... But I can't remember, but it was millions of dollars. I mean, there was... there were... it was like five or six families in Peru, in Lima, they're the center of all this, that were make... that were in charge... uh, that were the best of the best at making these. And we got inside one of these.

Joe Rogan 22:08 And how does that stuff get into US distribution?

Mariana van Zeller 22:11 US? Uh, usually in bags. Um, commercial airlines, just like drugs, a lot of drugs make it in commercial airlines. Same thing, commercial airlines bags, people would carry. Uh, the money mules would carry it, actual carrying money, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:23 And then, when it gets to America, what do they do with it?

Mariana van Zeller 22:26 They distribute it. So, it's funny, it's interesting. They actually start... they go to small towns and they distribute it in grocery stores and they don't go to like a Walmart or a big superstore. They go to small first, and that's how it gets in the general... That's how... that's how it starts getting used.

Joe Rogan 22:41 So they just buy things with it?

Mariana van Zeller 22:41 They buy things and, uh... Oh, I wish I remembered. This was five years ago. Um, they buy things but they also have people that exchange that for less cash. Yeah, that's what it was. I think they get... end up getting people-

Joe Rogan 22:55 Oh, so people that know?

Mariana van Zeller 22:56 Yeah, that know and they end up getting like 70% of what... I think it was something like 70% of the actual cost for real bills. So they get real money in exchange for getting people-

Joe Rogan 23:06 They get 70% of what a real bill is worth?

Mariana van Zeller 23:08 It was... I mean, the whole operation, I think was.

Joe Rogan 23:10 So if you have a $20 bill, you get 70% of that back in profit? Like a fake $20 bill?

Mariana van Zeller 23:15 Back in profit, yeah. The, the head of the group that then sells the bills-

Joe Rogan 23:20 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 23:20 ... when they're made.

Joe Rogan 23:20 I would've thought it'd be way less than that-

Mariana van Zeller 23:22 It was like 70%.

Joe Rogan 23:22 ... for someone to be willing to exchange you real money for fake money.

Mariana van Zeller 23:25 Yeah, I have to... I have to verify again (laughs) 'cause it was five years ago.

Joe Rogan 23:29 Okay. Okay.

Mariana van Zeller 23:29 But we've done 50 episodes, but I think it was something like that, if I remember right.

Joe Rogan 23:33 That's crazy though that it just gets distributed by small businesses.

Mariana van Zeller 23:37 Yeah.And, and so one of the things we started was we reported on a lot of these small businesses that found out that they were having massive amounts of loss every year from fake bills. And, uh, and I remember it was in, in Oregon. Um, we did a few stories there where a lot of people were complaining about this, small business owners were complaining about it.

Joe Rogan 23:56 How does it get ... How do they discover that they have fake bills?

Mariana van Zeller 23:59 I think they go to the bank and try to-

Joe Rogan 24:00 Oh, the bank knows?

Mariana van Zeller 24:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:02 So does the bank-

Mariana van Zeller 24:03 They try to deposit it.

Joe Rogan 24:03 Do they, like, look at every number on the bills? Like, how do they find out that they're fake?

Mariana van Zeller 24:08 I think the bank is able to find out just by looking at it. Um, you know.

Joe Rogan 24:11 Oh, okay.

Mariana van Zeller 24:12 Because I think it, it, it, you know, would fool us. But it doesn't fool somebody who's trained to look at these bills.

Joe Rogan 24:18 So the bank ... When you bring money to the bank, they look at every bill and make sure it's legit?

Mariana van Zeller 24:21 They're supposed to, yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:22 Oh.

Mariana van Zeller 24:22 I know that that's how they figured out that they had been given counterfeit ...

Joe Rogan 24:24 You got to go to a lazy bank. (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 24:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:26 Got to go to, go to bank where people are just phoning it in.

Mariana van Zeller 24:29 Partying all night. (laughs) Just, "Oh."

Joe Rogan 24:31 Yeah, they just s- They just assume that it's real.

Mariana van Zeller 24:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:32 They don't care. Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 24:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:34 That's crazy, though.

Mariana van Zeller 24:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:35 So, like, what is, like ... For the overall United States, like, how much money comes in every year that's fake?

Mariana van Zeller 24:40 Oh, it was ... I cannot remember at all the statistics, but it was, uh ... It was a lot. It was, like, in the millions of dollars that people were making down there.

Joe Rogan 24:47 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 24:47 It was crazy, yeah. But this all ... Back to the story of why I talked about this guy, about why people talk to us. And, oh, and back to the Cartel USA story, um, which, uh, started in Sinaloa. There was a point to this. You were asking me about how it ended up in the U.S. Oh, the ... What I discovered with cartels' operations in the United States. Um, so one of the people we interviewed, which was really fascinating, um ... And it was somebody who had this ... Carried this load on his back and why he ta- decided to talk to us, was this guy called El Gringo, or we called him El Gringo. And El Gringo is an American citizen who doesn't speak a word of Spanish and who's sort of the wholesale buyer of drugs from the cartel, and then is in charge of distributing the drugs here in the U.S. He distributes most of his drugs, uh, through commercial airlines, usually Delta because they have really good baggage fees. They ... 70 pounds, uh, two bags, 70 pounds if you fly business. And so a lot of times it was strippers who would carry the drugs from the West Coast to the East Coast. And he ... One of the things I'll never forget, he says, "If you're taking a Delta flight from the West Coast to the East Coast, I guarantee that there is a very high chance that somebody is carrying drugs on one of those flights."

Joe Rogan 25:59 Wow. And you said strippers?

Mariana van Zeller 26:01 Strippers, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:02 Why do they use strippers?

Mariana van Zeller 26:03 Because, uh, they are, uh ... Because people don't suspect. It's a woman, so people are less suspicious of women.

Joe Rogan 26:10 Oh.

Mariana van Zeller 26:11 And there's a h- higher chance that they'll make it and they are more likely to take the money to do this.

Joe Rogan 26:17 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 26:17 In this case, to do this job. Or they ... I mean, at least those are the people that he found would agree to do this.

Joe Rogan 26:23 Boy, you-

Mariana van Zeller 26:23 No, I mean, I don't want to say anything bad about strippers, but ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:25 You get busted doing that, though.

Mariana van Zeller 26:27 Yep.

Joe Rogan 26:27 That is a big penalty.

Mariana van Zeller 26:29 Yeah, it's a-

Joe Rogan 26:29 You're going to jail for a long time.

Mariana van Zeller 26:31 I know. It's a ter- It's obviously a, a terrible idea.

Joe Rogan 26:32 Such a risk.

Mariana van Zeller 26:33 Yeah. So this guy, El Gringo, decided to talk to me, um, and he was the one who contacted me. He contacted me initially and when ... Uh, telling me that he had a story he wanted shared, that he was, uh, involved with the cartel. And then so when we started doing the story about the cartel, I reached back out to him and said, "Actually, I'm doing a story about cartel presence here. Would you want to c- you know, be on the show?" And, um, and he agreed. And he, uh, traveled out to me and we met and he said, "Look, I've been dying to tell this story, because if I get whacked," uh, which he thought he might, he wanted his story to be out there. He wanted somebody to have heard his whole story.

Joe Rogan 27:11 Wow. Ugh.

Mariana van Zeller 27:12 Yeah, and he'd been threatened by the cartel. They'd been ... Sent him photos of his house and where ... They knew exactly where he lived and where his family was, so yeah, crazy story.

Joe Rogan 27:21 Geez.

Mariana van Zeller 27:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:24 So-

Mariana van Zeller 27:24 No, it was a crazy story.

Joe Rogan 27:25 ... when you go over and you have these conversations with the cartels, like, wha- what is that like? Do they blindfold you and drive you out there? Do they take your phone away?

Mariana van Zeller 27:35 Yeah, um, they ask for our phones to be off, um, turned off.

Joe Rogan 27:37 But that's not good enough.

Mariana van Zeller 27:39 It's-

Joe Rogan 27:39 Don't they know that's not good enough?

Mariana van Zeller 27:41 Uh, we ... Where you ... Where we go in Sinaloa-

Joe Rogan 27:45 Uh-huh.

Mariana van Zeller 27:46 ... is areas that are operated and controlled by the cartel.

Joe Rogan 27:50 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 27:50 It's not as if law enforcement doesn't know exactly where they are. They do.

Joe Rogan 27:54 Oh.

Mariana van Zeller 27:55 You know? (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:56 Okay. They just don't want you recording.

Mariana van Zeller 27:57 They just don't want us recording and they, they are afraid that if we by any chance are being followed by American law enforcement ... They're way more scared of American law enforcement than they are of Mexican law enforcement.

Joe Rogan 28:09 'Cause Mexican law enforcement's probably paid off.

Mariana van Zeller 28:11 Because there's a lot of corruption, yes.

Joe Rogan 28:12 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 28:12 A lot of corruption. Um, I mean, I've been in situations where, you know, there were police officers in the room. Um, so-

Joe Rogan 28:21 Whoa.

Mariana van Zeller 28:21 Yeah. Uh-huh. So-

Joe Rogan 28:23 Corrupt cops?

Mariana van Zeller 28:23 Corrupt cops, yeah. Um-

Joe Rogan 28:25 Wow. Just in uniform?

Mariana van Zeller 28:28 Sometimes in uniform, sometimes just hanging out.

Joe Rogan 28:30 Just hanging out?

Mariana van Zeller 28:30 Yeah. They're corrupt cops-

Joe Rogan 28:32 Whoa.

Mariana van Zeller 28:32 ... who work many times for the cartel, right? And that happens all over. I mean, that's not just in Mexico that that's happened. I've seen it in Columbia. Uh, we ... I've seen it in Brazil. We did a story about militias, um, where I filmed a militia in Brazil with cops around. So yeah, that happens, unfortunately, everywhere. Um, but so when ... It's not as if they don't know where these people are. They're just afraid that maybe the DEA, knowing that I'm a journalist and I go and do th- this stuff, that they might be following me. So sometimes they ask for our phones to stay behind, but a lot of times they just want our phones off, um, so that we don't transmit any signals. Um, but once we're in their territory, it takes months to get them to say yes and there's all these ground rules, right? We can't disclose locations or people. We have to make sure we always bring masks and T-shirts, long-sleeve T-shirts and hoodies and everything with us, because if they have tattoos and ... We want to make sure that they ... We don't show who they are.

Joe Rogan 29:27 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 29:27 Because that ...... can create a problem for them, but it can also create a problem for us, and it c- can create a problem to the local journalists that help us, 'cause they're gonna be the first targets.

Joe Rogan 29:36 If, if I was this finisher guy, I would say, "You gotta put sunglasses on me," 'cause I have very recognizable eyes.

Mariana van Zeller 29:41 You know, it's interesting, most people don't want to wear sunglasses. We always travel with sunglasses and we ask people to put on sunglasses, and people sometimes don't. They-

Joe Rogan 29:48 That guy-

Mariana van Zeller 29:48 ... they say, "We don't care."

Joe Rogan 29:49 ... needed sunglasses.

Mariana van Zeller 29:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:50 His eyes were very recognizable-

Mariana van Zeller 29:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:52 ... very unusual coloring under the eyes.

Mariana van Zeller 29:54 I have not met, or I haven't heard of a single person yet who has been caught, um, from our show, and I'm in touch with a lot of them.

Joe Rogan 30:01 Well, that's great.

Mariana van Zeller 30:02 So it's been, it's been good.

Joe Rogan 30:03 It might just be because they're not trying.

Mariana van Zeller 30:06 I, I really, realistically don't think it's be- it's not because they don't know that these, who they are or where they are. It's not that law enforcement is blind to this.

Joe Rogan 30:15 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 30:15 Um, I think it's, it's, uh, unwillingness sometimes to go after this. It's realizing that actually these are the low level guys and what they really want is to get at the big guys, the kingpins-

Joe Rogan 30:27 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 30:27 ... which is a better strategy anyway.

Joe Rogan 30:28 But isn't that sometimes how they do it? They get a little guy and get him to turn?

Mariana van Zeller 30:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:32 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 30:33 Yeah. Absolutely. Um-

Joe Rogan 30:34 Oof.

Mariana van Zeller 30:35 Yeah. But, uh, yeah-

Joe Rogan 30:36 What a terrifying world that only exists because of an illegal market that the United States fuels.

Mariana van Zeller 30:42 Yeah. The biggest drug consumers in the world.

Joe Rogan 30:45 We're number one.

Mariana van Zeller 30:45 The largest. Number one.

Joe Rogan 30:47 We're number one.

Mariana van Zeller 30:48 Number one.

Joe Rogan 30:48 We're number one. (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 30:48 I mean, number one in incarcerations, number one... It's $150 billion, um-

Joe Rogan 30:53 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 30:53 ... in drugs that we spend every year.

Joe Rogan 30:55 That's so crazy.

Mariana van Zeller 30:56 It is crazy. And, you know, we share this border with Mexico, which is fortunate and very unfortunate for them.

Joe Rogan 31:03 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 31:03 They, they blame us for creating the consumer market, we blame th- them for creating the, the drugs that feed this consumer market. And there's no-

Joe Rogan 31:11 Is there anyone that has a realistic solution to how to at least mitigate some of that?

Mariana van Zeller 31:17 We've talked about this. Uh, y- uh, we, we had a, a little bit of a debate about this last time, because I keep giving the example of Portugal, and you said... Which has decriminalized drugs, right?

Joe Rogan 31:27 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 31:27 And I know Portugal is not the United States. We're 10 million people, we're a small country, but i- whatever... We w- i- it worked there. Um-

Joe Rogan 31:36 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 31:37 Drug abuse went down.

Joe Rogan 31:38 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 31:38 Incarceration went down. H- HIV went down-

Joe Rogan 31:41 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 31:41 ... levels of HIV went down. So it worked there. They tried it in Oregon, right? It went terribly.

Joe Rogan 31:46 Yeah, but Oregon's a bad place to try it.

Mariana van Zeller 31:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:49 Because Oregon was already so lawless that going to Oregon, it, like, allowed people to, like, ramp it up. And so, because you could get anything and everything was decriminalized, they just went ham.

Mariana van Zeller 32:00 Yeah. And also, they didn't have the system in place for people who actually wanted rehab.

Joe Rogan 32:05 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 32:05 And, and so when you don't, what are people gonna do? They're gonna go back to-

Joe Rogan 32:08 But even then-

Mariana van Zeller 32:09 ... to drugs.

Joe Rogan 32:09 ... rehab is very ineffective.

Mariana van Zeller 32:12 Y-

Joe Rogan 32:12 Like, percentage wise.

Mariana van Zeller 32:14 It is. That's, was another episode we did this season that you should watch. It's about, it's called The Rehab Scam. It's The Great American Rehab Scam.

Joe Rogan 32:20 Yes.

Mariana van Zeller 32:20 And it's about how in California... We did, we filmed in Arizona and California. In California alone, we got a, an insurance, the head of the insurance, um, investigations in California, an insurance fraud investigator in California told us that in his estimates, that he said, they're probably very low, 10% of the thousands of rehab facilities out there are probably a fraud and, and a scam, in which they get-

Joe Rogan 32:46 10%?

Mariana van Zeller 32:47 10%, which is a crazy number. But he thinks it's a low number, that it's probably much higher than that. So we, what we, our story was all about body brokering and rehab scams. And it was-

Joe Rogan 32:57 Bo- body brokering?

Mariana van Zeller 32:58 Body brokering, yeah. It's, uh-

Joe Rogan 32:59 What is that?

Mariana van Zeller 33:00 It's an i- it's a term applied, that applies to, uh, rehab scams. So rehab scams is basically the, the, uh, buying and selling of addicts (laughs) in this billion dollar market, right? So it's, um, um, these f- they create these fake, uh, rehab centers that bill insurance for treatments that they are not actually giving people. Um, so, uh, for example, it, it's a huge problem in Arizona. That's why we started... And in California, but we started in Arizona. Native Americans have really easy access to, um, l- health insurance through the, the Indian American Health Plan that they created. And it started as a good thing, because there's... It, it was difficult, a lot of people lived in reservations far away. A lot of people, you know, because of generational trauma and alcohol abuse and drug abuse, there's a real need, uh, for health insurance and for them to have access to health insurance. So you have these wh- huge communities that when COVID happened, uh, the state made it even easier for them to get the help that they needed through health insurance. But all these bad actors realized, "Oh, this is great. We're just gonna build these fake rehab centers, go around in white vans..." Literally, there's, like, thousands of people still missing in Arizona. Most of them, uh, Native Americans. And they go out in white vans to these reservations in Arizona and New Mexico, and they bring people, people who, you know, um, have problems with drug and alcohol, and they bring people to these s- centers. And then they start billing insurance, they get you on an insurance plan, and they start billing insurance, crazy amounts of money. Like, we spoke... We were investigating this one facility that they were making 800 and something, um, million doll- sorry, 800 and something thousand, uh, $870,000 a week, a week, from, you know, dozens of people that they were housing.

Joe Rogan 34:58 Whoa.

Mariana van Zeller 34:58 And, and not actually providing them the treatment that they so desperately needed.

Joe Rogan 35:02 So just house them?

Mariana van Zeller 35:03 They, so... Which is also illegal. You can't house some- you can't offer somebody free housing, uh-... and, and then tell them that, "You will only get the free housing if you go and do our treatment." That's illegal, it's an illegal kickback. But so they were doing this out in the open and some of these business operators were actually not even Americans, they were Nigerians. I found out that there were some Nigerians that owns, own some of these rehab facilities.

Joe Rogan 35:26 Nigerians are so good at scamming.

Mariana van Zeller 35:27 Oh, my God, it's bananas. It is bananas.

Narrator 35:29 (laughs) So ingenious.

Mariana van Zeller 35:30 Yeah.

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Mariana van Zeller 36:43 But Americans too, I mean-

Joe Rogan 36:44 Oh, yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 36:44 ... there were a lot of them that were Americans. So these guys are, like, driving around in Ferrari's and, you know, people are living in these fake centers. I spoke to people who the therapy that they were, they were billing like $2,500 for a therapy session, u- one hour therapy session. W- that was a Zoom meeting, a Zoom call with 600 people on the call, and that's the therapy session.

Joe Rogan 37:07 Whoa.

Mariana van Zeller 37:07 It's bananas. Or people who weren't even there and they billed for insurance, and the people weren't even there.

Joe Rogan 37:12 So 600 people were-

Mariana van Zeller 37:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:14 ... they were-

Mariana van Zeller 37:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:14 ... collecting $2,000-

Mariana van Zeller 37:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:16 ... from 600 people-

Mariana van Zeller 37:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:17 ... for one hou-

Mariana van Zeller 37:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:18 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 37:20 It is insane.

Joe Rogan 37:21 Well, I could see why they would do that.

Mariana van Zeller 37:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:23 I- if that's a possibility-

Mariana van Zeller 37:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:25 ... to make money. Yeah, if you open the door to criminals, and the thing about rehabilitation centers is a lot of people that get, go to rehab or get involved-

Mariana van Zeller 37:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:34 ... in rehab, they've also had shady pasts.

Mariana van Zeller 37:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:36 Right? They've been involved-

Mariana van Zeller 37:37 Yes.

Joe Rogan 37:37 ... with criminals and then-

Mariana van Zeller 37:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:38 ... they go, "Listen, man, I think there's money to be made here."

Mariana van Zeller 37:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:41 Like, "This ain't fixing nobody, this is-

Mariana van Zeller 37:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:43 ... court ordered rehabilitation."

Mariana van Zeller 37:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:46 "I had to go in here."

Mariana van Zeller 37:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:48 "Uh, uh, let's make some money."

Mariana van Zeller 37:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:49 "Start our own place."

Mariana van Zeller 37:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:50 What is, what's the, like, what, what's the steps that one has to take if one was to open up... Not that I'm thinking about doing it.

Mariana van Zeller 37:56 (laughs) Are you thinking of it?

Joe Rogan 37:57 Not that I'm thinking about doing it. (laughs) If someone was a scumbag-

Mariana van Zeller 38:00 Let's, let's teach everybody.

Joe Rogan 38:01 ... if someone was a terrible person, not me-

Mariana van Zeller 38:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:03 ... but if someone was a terrible person, like, what would someone do? Uh, what, uh, like, what are the parameters?

Mariana van Zeller 38:08 Yeah, I-

Joe Rogan 38:08 Like, what do you have to do to open up a rehab?

Mariana van Zeller 38:09 You, you, you pr- you need a license for it, probably a state license, but in some cases it was just really easy to get a state license. There was, i- in Florida it became a huge problem, it was called the Florida shuffle, which was this, you were going back and forth between, you know, detox and rehabs-

Joe Rogan 38:22 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 38:23 ... and, uh, outpatient treatment centers and they were all owned by the same sort of, uh, you know, well-known-

Joe Rogan 38:28 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 38:29 ... fraudsters. So you have to get a, a, a license, but there's not much more and that was the problem is that anyone could get a license and anyone could operate one of these.

Joe Rogan 38:37 I was reading about a judge that recently got busted because this judge-

Mariana van Zeller 38:41 Oh, my gosh.

Joe Rogan 38:41 ... was sentencing people to the rehab that they owned.

Mariana van Zeller 38:45 Ugh, that is...

Joe Rogan 38:46 And so taking-

Mariana van Zeller 38:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:46 ... like l- v- dangerous, violent criminals and not incarcerating them, but instead sending them to these rehabilitation centers that they owned.

Mariana van Zeller 38:53 Wow. Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:54 And just collecting.

Mariana van Zeller 38:56 Yeah. It is, it's so sad, it's, it's really, um, you know, as somebody who's reported on the opiate crisis for so long, just that is the only hope, right? Let's figure out a way, this is... I- we, we have been trying to arrest ourselves and militarize, uh, ourselves out of this problem-

Joe Rogan 39:15 Yeah, it doesn't work.

Mariana van Zeller 39:16 ... and it, it's, doesn't work. It's a public health crisis.

Joe Rogan 39:18 100%.

Mariana van Zeller 39:19 One of the other stories we did this season was about tranq dope. Do you know what tranq dope is?

Joe Rogan 39:23 Tranq dope?

Mariana van Zeller 39:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:24 No.

Mariana van Zeller 39:25 It's, fentanyl now is being mixed with a thing called xylazine, which is an animal tranquilizer.

Joe Rogan 39:30 Oh, fun.

Mariana van Zeller 39:30 Ah, so fun. Uh, it's horrible. Um, and 90% of the fentanyl that is now being, that's coming out of Philadelphia, you know Kensington? Have you s- you've seen the zombies-

Joe Rogan 39:41 Oh, I have seen tranq where those people-

Mariana van Zeller 39:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:43 ... like, fall over?

Mariana van Zeller 39:43 Yeah. Like-

Joe Rogan 39:44 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 39:44 ... like zombies they're walking down-

Joe Rogan 39:45 They're like they're doing crazy yoga.

Mariana van Zeller 39:47 Yeah. In Kensington it's the saddest thing. So we spent time in Kensington filming.

Joe Rogan 39:51 What is it about that stu- is it the tranquilizer that makes them just fall over like that standing up?

Mariana van Zeller 39:56 Yeah, yeah, it's part of it.

Joe Rogan 39:57 Oh.

Mariana van Zeller 39:58 So it's, it's a really interesting, you know, as we all know, it all started with OxyContin and then it went to heroin. And heroin was a great high for people who are addicted to opiates because it was a powerful high and it would ke- keep you high for a long time. And then came fentanyl, and fentanyl gives you an even more powerful high but it's fast acting so you get out of it fast. So somebody realized if we mix tranq, um, animal tranquilizer with this-

Joe Rogan 40:24 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 40:25 ... you will, you will still have the big high but it will extend the time that you have that high. And what is happening to, you know, thousands of people across the US is that they are taking these drugs, getting the high that they want-

Joe Rogan 40:40 They're just doing it like this, so is it IV?

Mariana van Zeller 40:42 Oh, my God, it's horrible. No, they're shooting it up.

Joe Rogan 40:44 They're shooting it-

Mariana van Zeller 40:44 And this is what we shot in Kensington.

Joe Rogan 40:45 ... intravenously. Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 40:46 Yeah, they shoot it up, and what we shot in Kensington-

Joe Rogan 40:48 Oh, this is it? And where is this?

Narrator 40:51 This is Philly.

Mariana van Zeller 40:52 Philly, outside of Philly. It's in Kensington.

Joe Rogan 40:53 Is this Philadelphia? It is.

Narrator 40:53 It is.

Joe Rogan 40:53 It's a big problem in Philadelphia for some reason.

Mariana van Zeller 40:55 It's horrible, but this is, uh, if you find, and this might be too disturbing, Jamie-

Narrator 40:59 Wait, I was just trying to find something that, just to show what he was asking for.

Joe Rogan 41:01 What's too disturbing?

Mariana van Zeller 41:02 But it, it's what we filmed in our show-

Narrator 41:04 Okay.

Mariana van Zeller 41:04 ... which was the, the wounds that come-

Joe Rogan 41:07 Gangrene? Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 41:07 Ugh, it's like, it looks like leprosy. Um-

Joe Rogan 41:10 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 41:10 ... and it's people being amputated because-

Narrator 41:13 The title of this is Losing Arms and Legs From Chain.

Mariana van Zeller 41:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:15 Mm.

Narrator 41:15 There you go.

Joe Rogan 41:16 Oh, my God, that guy's got-

Mariana van Zeller 41:18 No, we-

Joe Rogan 41:18 ... no leg because of it. Oh, God.

Mariana van Zeller 41:20 Yeah.Yeah. That guy is missing an arm. But the gangrene and the open wounds.

Joe Rogan 41:24 Oh.

Mariana van Zeller 41:24 And we filmed somebody being treated and this woman's arm was, like, all gone.

Joe Rogan 41:30 Ooh.

Mariana van Zeller 41:30 It was just one of the most painful things to, to watch. And this, you know, you can imagine the smell and, and all of this.

Joe Rogan 41:35 I know a comedian who went to the hospital for gangrene because of heroin.

Mariana van Zeller 41:39 No.

Joe Rogan 41:39 Almost lost his leg. He wound up dying eventually, but, yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 41:44 Oof, yeah. I mean, and now with tranq it's just gotten ... And yeah, I don't think any of these people want to be doing this, right? Nobody wants-

Joe Rogan 41:52 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 41:52 ... to be living out on ... Oh, look. I mean-

Joe Rogan 41:53 Oh, boy.

Mariana van Zeller 41:55 And this is not ... I mean, the one we-

Narrator 41:57 Yeah. This is just-

Mariana van Zeller 41:58 ... filmed is even worse than this.

Narrator 41:59 I'm just, I'm just clicking around them. There's a ton of videos about it.

Mariana van Zeller 42:01 Yeah.

Narrator 42:01 So if anyone's curious, just go on YouTube and look and-

Mariana van Zeller 42:02 This one looks good comparatively.

Joe Rogan 42:04 Yeah. There's some people in this country that have no hope.

Mariana van Zeller 42:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:07 And they're, they're just cau- They're ... The, the addiction just has got them and there's no help for them. And if you get sent to a phony rehab while you're in that state, that's, that is, uh, really evil. That's really evil.

Mariana van Zeller 42:22 Isn't it? I think it's really evil too. But I, I think, yeah, in many ways people sometimes think, oh, these ... They're junkies, they're, they're out there, they just want this life and they have failed society.

Joe Rogan 42:34 No.

Mariana van Zeller 42:34 I quite frankly think we have failed them.

Joe Rogan 42:37 Well, not you and me, but yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 42:39 No, our governments.

Joe Rogan 42:39 The structure of society.

Mariana van Zeller 42:39 Our government, yeah, has failed them.

Joe Rogan 42:41 Yeah. Are you aware of Ibogaine?

Mariana van Zeller 42:43 Yes. I, I listened-

Joe Rogan 42:44 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 42:44 ... to the interview you did with, uh-

Joe Rogan 42:46 With Rick Perry?

Mariana van Zeller 42:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:47 Governor, former governor of Texas.

Mariana van Zeller 42:48 Yeah, yeah. That was fascinating.

Joe Rogan 42:49 Yeah. That is insanely effective and, um, readily available in Mexico. And now, uh, fortunately because of former governor Rick Perry, it's available in Texas. So they're doing it now in Texas with, uh, soldiers with PTSD. People coming back from the war with great efficacy, and people that, that have also been hooked on substances because of some of things that they've seen. So I think that's a great doorway into the right. Because the right has always viewed these things, like particularly a psychedelic, which Ibogaine is, I guess. It, it's category one, right? It's Schedule I. I don't know. I think it's Schedule I. Is Ibogaine Schedule I? Um, but it's certainly illegal in America and it's thought of as ... I don't know how you could ever consider it recreational because it's a, apparently a very brutal experience and very introspective. And most people say, "I did not enjoy that at all. I hated it." Uh, I had Dakota Meyer on the podcast and he talked about it and he's like, "I wanted to punch the guy who gave it to me."

Mariana van Zeller 43:52 Wow. Wow.

Joe Rogan 43:52 He's like, "It's fucking terrible." For like one whole day you're going ever, over every horrible aspect of your life and it finds, like, the pathways in your brain that created behavior afterwards. And it like gives you this like insanely introspective slideshow of your life and sort of lays out, this is why you're an addict. This is why you're a gambling addict. This is why you're addicted to ruining your life. Like, these are the things that happened to you when you were young and these are things that you did when you were an adult that you had shame over and all these different thing. These are the things that you've seen that are horrific, that have scarred you. And it has like an 80% effective rate for people getting off drugs-

Mariana van Zeller 44:33 Oh, wow. That's really high.

Joe Rogan 44:33 ... with one session and it's in the 90s with two sessions.

Mariana van Zeller 44:37 Wow. That is crazy high.

Joe Rogan 44:39 Yeah. Exactly.

Mariana van Zeller 44:40 And it's illegal here, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:42 Exactly. Well, it is now legal in Texas. Well, I don't know what the regulations are or how they're doing it, but at least they're, they're giving it to some people in Texas.

Mariana van Zeller 44:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:51 And I think, like I was saying, this is a doorway for the right to understand.

Mariana van Zeller 44:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:56 And I think this is a lot of the case with a lot of these, um, special forces guys, a lot of SEALs and Green Berets. They come back from combat and they're all fucked up and some of their friends take them on ayahuasca journeys.

Mariana van Zeller 45:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:08 And that helps them a lot. So that's another, like, doorway into the right because people on the right have always thought of psychedelics as being for losers and hippies and people just trying to escape life. But just the sheer horror of combat experience has forced a lot of people to reconsider this position and then they've had so many family members that are veterans and that are, you know, especially, especially guys that are like in the heart of combat.

Mariana van Zeller 45:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:36 And then they come back and they, they're just fucked up and no one wants to help them. Nobody can just talk you through it.

Mariana van Zeller 45:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:43 And the one thing that I don't want to say universally, but, uh, a high percentage have had great success with is psychedelics.

Mariana van Zeller 45:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:52 So I think it's another massive disservice that those are lumped in, in the same illegal category as fentanyl.

Mariana van Zeller 45:59 As fentanyl. I know.

Joe Rogan 46:00 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 46:00 Or, or meth. I know.

Joe Rogan 46:02 Or meth, yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 46:02 Yeah. I agree.

Joe Rogan 46:03 But do you think that the pathway is legalization? Because like even decriminalization, where you gonna get it? You're gonna get ... See, here's the problem with decriminalization. In California, um, my friend John Norris-

Mariana van Zeller 46:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:20 ... he was a game warden and do you know the story?

Mariana van Zeller 46:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:22 Okay, so John, for people who don't know-

Mariana van Zeller 46:24 He's coming on my podcast, by the way.

Joe Rogan 46:25 Oh, he's great.

Mariana van Zeller 46:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:26 So John was a game warden, right?

Mariana van Zeller 46:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:28 Loved the outdoors, became a game warden. He really wanted to like check people's fishing licenses and hunting licenses and making sure the, the land was taken care of and making sure people aren't littering or doing anything stupid. So he gets this call that this stream is blocked up. It's like the stream stopped running and they can't figure out why, maybe a farmer diverted water. They follow the stream, they find these PVC pipes that are rerouting it to this massive marijuana farm that the cartel owns.

Mariana van Zeller 46:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:53 So when California made marijuana legal in the state, what they also did is make it a misdemeanor to grow c- to grow marijuana illegally.

Mariana van Zeller 47:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:04 So the cartels are like, "Fucking great. Let's just start growing."

Mariana van Zeller 47:06 Yeah. This is the best business.

Joe Rogan 47:07 So they're bringing AKs and assault rifles out into the woods, setting up camps. Super toxic pesticides.

Mariana van Zeller 47:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:17 Super toxic. Like shit that's totally illegal in modern farming in America. Like way worse than glyphosate. And that's somewhere in the neighborhood of 80+% of all the marijuana that gets sold in the places where marijuana is illegal-

Mariana van Zeller 47:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:33 ... it's all getting sold from these grow ops in California-

Mariana van Zeller 47:36 Yep. It's insane.

Joe Rogan 47:36 ... by the cartels.

Mariana van Zeller 47:37 I've f- I filmed some of them. I've been there. I've been in those mountains (laughs) in California.

Joe Rogan 47:42 It's so crazy, but it's-

Mariana van Zeller 47:42 Seen that. It is insane.

Joe Rogan 47:43 It's so crazy.

Mariana van Zeller 47:44 It's crazy. Like wildlife buying-

Joe Rogan 47:44 But it's also a side effect of, like, what Colorado did. Colorado made it legal.

Mariana van Zeller 47:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:48 Great. But then they also taxed it, like, 39%.

Mariana van Zeller 47:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:52 And so most people are like-

Mariana van Zeller 47:54 And, and Cal- yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:54 ... "Look, it's still cheap. I'll pay tur- 39%."

Mariana van Zeller 47:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:56 The state gets the money. It's a net benefit for everyone. But there's a lot of people that are like, "I'll just grow weed illegally-

Mariana van Zeller 48:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:03 ... and sell that since it's legal in the state."

Mariana van Zeller 48:04 Right. And because it's, it's impossible to get a license in California. When they legalized it initially, it was, they made it so hard for people to actually get their licenses and doing, do it legally-

Joe Rogan 48:14 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 48:15 ... that the actual black, black market increased when they legalized it.

Joe Rogan 48:18 Of course. California's brilliant with that. That's why they still haven't rebuilt a single house in the Pacific Palisades that burnt down.

Mariana van Zeller 48:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:24 Not a single house, nine months later, with some of the richest people in California.

Mariana van Zeller 48:28 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:29 Because nobody can get a, nobody can get-

Mariana van Zeller 48:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:32 ... permits.

Mariana van Zeller 48:32 They're trying to make it easier to build.

Joe Rogan 48:34 Allegedly.

Mariana van Zeller 48:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:35 How would ... If you would have done it-

Mariana van Zeller 48:37 Have you had Gavin Newsom on your program?

Joe Rogan 48:38 No. He's been, he's been taunting me, trying to get me to have him on.

Mariana van Zeller 48:42 You should.

Joe Rogan 48:42 Why?

Mariana van Zeller 48:43 I mean, you should. I don't know, because he's interesting. He, people, he's out there.

Joe Rogan 48:45 You think he's interesting?

Mariana van Zeller 48:47 Uh, I-

Joe Rogan 48:48 He's interesting as like a sociology experiment, like if you-

Mariana van Zeller 48:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:51 ... if you're a psychologist.

Mariana van Zeller 48:52 I, I mean, you talk to everyone, I think.

Joe Rogan 48:53 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 48:54 Do you know who I really love that you interviewed recently?

Joe Rogan 48:56 Who?

Mariana van Zeller 48:57 James Talarico.

Joe Rogan 48:57 He's great. Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 48:58 He's fantastic.

Joe Rogan 48:59 He's great. He had great insight as to, uh, what's going on in Texas too, where these Christian fundamentalists who are very, very wealthy are trying to turn Texas into a theocracy.

Mariana van Zeller 49:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:09 Like-

Mariana van Zeller 49:09 They are fucking crazy.

Joe Rogan 49:10 ... these guys sound like full-on nutters.

Mariana van Zeller 49:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:13 And this is something that people have to be c- really careful of when you become aligned with one party-

Mariana van Zeller 49:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:19 ... or another party, right? If you become a- aligned with the left, like Jimmy Kimmel was like ignoring, he was like mocking the-

Mariana van Zeller 49:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:26 ... president for saying that Antifa, like, "Antifa's not real. Antifa's not ..." That's so crazy to say. I know it's a-

Mariana van Zeller 49:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:33 ... Democrat talking point c- currently, but it's dangerous for you and for everybody else to say-

Mariana van Zeller 49:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:39 ... because they are real. They're real and they're anarchists who are committed to overthrowing capitalism.

Mariana van Zeller 49:46 Yeah, uh-

Joe Rogan 49:46 They want to destroy the Western government.

Mariana van Zeller 49:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:50 Like it's ... And a lot of them are retards. A lot of them are just like goofy kids that got lost in the system-

Mariana van Zeller 49:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:56 ... and then they found like a gang.

Mariana van Zeller 49:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:58 Like a lot of gang members, like that's the same kind of thing. They get ... You find a community and all of a sudden these people are yours and they're real and th- And also, they're willing to fight for something and there's like a lot of passion involved in it, so it's kind of exciting. And then you also realize like, yeah, corporate society is fucked up. Yeah, United Healthcare, that is kind of crazy that you spend all that money on healthcare and you get fucking nothing. And then when you do have something they deny your claim. Like what is going on?

Mariana van Zeller 50:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:25 And is, is fucked ... And so they don't know where to turn and so they, they get involved with a bunch of people that are doing stupid shit and they light Starbucks on fire.

Mariana van Zeller 50:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:33 Or they, you know ... And-

Mariana van Zeller 50:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:34 But a lot of it's funded too. That's the other thing. The reality is a lot of these, uh, you know-

Mariana van Zeller 50:39 I don't know about the funding part of it. So I've, I've-

Joe Rogan 50:42 Organized and funded.

Mariana van Zeller 50:42 ... spoken, I've spoken to Antifa. We did, I've done stories on, uh, on militias. It was one of the stories we did this last season. And it was important for me when we did that story. I've been wanting to do ... There's, uh, rising militias, uh, rising threat of militias everywhere in the world, but particularly here in the United States. And we also filmed in Brazil because it's a real pr- problem, uh, there. And we, uh, I knew from the start that I didn't want to just do right wing militias, that it was important to also do left wing militias.

Joe Rogan 51:10 Hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 51:10 So we spent time with a group that operates on the border, right wing militia that operates on the border and was basically trying to catch, uh, illegal immigrants. And then we also spent time, uh, you know, just a few miles away from th- that group, there was another group called the Black Cat Rifle Group, um, that is a left wing militia. And it is, to me, what was so scary was that they existed because of the other side. Like they-

Joe Rogan 51:39 Of course.

Mariana van Zeller 51:39 They existed because the other side exists, right?

Joe Rogan 51:41 Yes.

Mariana van Zeller 51:42 And none of them understood that w- that, you know, that, that one would become stronger, the stronger the other would become. And that this was all going to end not well for any of us. And when I was asking the Black Cat Rifle Group, you know, when I was asking them why they have a militia and why are they training. I mean they were training with, with guns and, and, you know, they look ... If you look at these guys, they actually look ... I mean, espe- especially the guys at the border, uh, which were the right wing militia groups. If, if I was an immigrant crossing the country illegally and I saw one of these guys, 100% would think that this is the US Army or Border Patrol-

Joe Rogan 52:22 Hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 52:22 ... and, and I'd be terrified or I'd hand myself in and then ... But it's, it's their ... Which by the way is not what ... That's the part that's not legal. You're not s- You're, you can train with your buddies, you can do all that, but you can't pretend to be-

Joe Rogan 52:38 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 52:38 And you can't look like you're part of the, uh-

Joe Rogan 52:40 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 52:41 ... the military or law enforcement when you're not. And, and these guys 100% looked like they were. Um, I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for this, because every time we talk about, I talk about militias, um, I get flak for it. But-

Joe Rogan 52:53 Why?

Mariana van Zeller 52:53 Uh, because, because we are, we're living in the most divided, uh, era-

Joe Rogan 52:58 Oh, okay.

Mariana van Zeller 52:58 ... of our time.

Joe Rogan 52:59 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 52:59 And there's a lot of people who, you know, that-... believe that militias are important and think that it's important that they exist. I, I f- I find them incredibly dangerous, the existence of militias outside or on the periphery of the, of the law. I find it incredibly dangerous. And so, when I was talking to the right-wing group they said something. When I started talking to left-wing group, they were giving me the exact same reasons.

Joe Rogan 53:21 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 53:21 I mean, it was the exact same conversation, but seen from the other side, right?

Joe Rogan 53:25 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 53:25 And so I said, like, "Do you not un- this is exactly the same thing that the other guy said." And they were like, "Yeah. We're, we are here, we think..." And their com- their point was that ... And they don't call themselves militias, by the way, the, the left-wing group. But they ... And they didn't like the fact that I called them militias. But they were saying was that, that this is basically a group who trains for what they think is go- going to be an, an incoming possible civil war. We talked about civil war with them.

Joe Rogan 53:49 Boy.

Mariana van Zeller 53:49 I know. And they said, "Look, minorities in this country are under attack a lot of times by these right-wing militias. Uh, whether they are part of the LGBTQ community or they're, um, you know, um, m- black or Hispanic, they're under attack and it's our job to train to make sure that we protect these people that are the most vulnerable in our society. And we have to arm up and train and be ready to fight and go after the other people, um, if we have to." They said they only protect themselves. Um, they only defend themselves, right?

Joe Rogan 54:22 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 54:22 But that's the exact same thing that I heard from the other side.

Joe Rogan 54:24 It is the exact same thing. That was my point was that, um, like people like Jimmy Kimmel talking about Antifa not existing, like, that's not good for anybody. No. They are, they are real and they are violent. And then people on the right that wanna ignore these people that are trying to turn Texas into a theocracy and put the Ten Commandments in every school-

Mariana van Zeller 54:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:44 ... the great thing about Talarico is that he went to seminary school. He's in seminary right now, so he's a very religious-

Mariana van Zeller 54:50 Oh, yes, he is.

Joe Rogan 54:50 ... person and he does not want them to have the Ten Commandments in schools.

Mariana van Zeller 54:54 No.

Joe Rogan 54:54 He's like, "You should not... This is gonna create less Christians, it's gonna have more resistance to Christianity." And really-

Mariana van Zeller 55:01 Yeah. Religion has no place in government.

Joe Rogan 55:02 Well, and also, why would you have that up but you don't have something from Hinduism-

Mariana van Zeller 55:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:08 ... something from Buddhism, something from-

Mariana van Zeller 55:10 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 55:10 ... Is- Islam, something from Judaism? Like, you should, it should be all religions. If you're gonna have a religious class, that's a different thing-

Mariana van Zeller 55:19 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:19 ... but if you're gonna have a thing on the wall that everybody pays attention to-

Mariana van Zeller 55:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:21 ... that you have to look at every day-

Mariana van Zeller 55:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:23 ... because it's th- your commandments and it's Christianity, well, then you're forcing Christianity on people and that's very un-American.

Mariana van Zeller 55:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:30 And I thi- I think he's really right. And I think-

Mariana van Zeller 55:32 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 55:32 ... that's the thing about being on a fucking team is that you feel like you have to defend your team and ignore the horrible thing that your team does-

Mariana van Zeller 55:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:41 ... and then only pay attention to the bad things the other team does. That's crazy. Now you're doing the man's work for the man.

Mariana van Zeller 55:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:48 And you get no benefit.

Mariana van Zeller 55:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:49 Not only do you get no benefit, but you actually help society erode and become more fractured.

Mariana van Zeller 55:53 Yeah, and get to the place, yeah, we are right now.

Joe Rogan 55:55 Yeah. It's horrible. It's horrible. We need another Martin Luther King, you know? We need someone who's, like, an adamant expresser of non-violence as the only option and then we all need to embrace-

Mariana van Zeller 56:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:07 ... that because there's too many punch-a-Nazi people out there. There's too many people out there that think you can just go out and do violence. And I get it, that sounds exciting, "I'm a revolutionary." Yeah, I get it. It's exciting. It's the wrong way for human beings. We are sup- this is supposed to be 2025, right? We are supposed to have evolved to a point where we recognize that violence is one of the worst things that we ever have in our community in any way, shape, or form. Whether it's police violence or whether it's gang violence, any kind of violence is the worst thing-

Mariana van Zeller 56:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:39 ... that we can do to each other. We're supposed to be living together in harmony. There's a way, at least, to minimize that violence by never having violent rhetoric, by never encouraging violence-

Mariana van Zeller 56:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:50 ... and we seem to have lost that somewhere along the line.

Mariana van Zeller 56:54 I agree. I mean, violence and hate, you know?

Joe Rogan 56:57 And hate.

Mariana van Zeller 56:57 There is so much hate-

Joe Rogan 56:58 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 56:58 ... and there's talk about hate and hating the other side and hating anyone that doesn't stand by what I stand or what I believe in. It's just-

Joe Rogan 57:04 Well, look what happened when Charlie Kirk got murdered. People were literally cheering, and we found out about it. I was doing a podcast with Charlie Sheen, and we went to the restroom and when we were going to the restroom, Jamie told us-

Mariana van Zeller 57:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:15 ... that Charlie Kirk got shot and he's dead. And we came back and did the podcast and I was like, "People are going to celebrate this." And this is what's s- is terrifying to me. And I got a message from a, a friend of mine who was like, "Man, I think you're wrong. I think it's a bunch of bot counts that are gonna, uh, that it's just to rile people up." But it wasn't. I, I watched it. I watched a lot of it online. I watched it through famous people and prominent people that were s- just condoning his assassination if not celebrating it by saying, you know, that he put hateful rhetoric out there in the world. The way that you counter hateful rhetoric is love. Like, you have to, you, you, you have to recognize that these people are wrong, they're coming from a wrong position, and eloquently state the right position-

Mariana van Zeller 58:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:02 ... which is what Martin Luther King Jr. did.

Mariana van Zeller 58:04 Yeah, which is not what P- President Trump said at, uh, the m- the memorial of Charlie Kirk.

Joe Rogan 58:08 What did he say?

Mariana van Zeller 58:09 Uh, well, he, he-

Joe Rogan 58:10 Oh, I hate my enemies. He loved his enemies.

Mariana van Zeller 58:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:12 Yeah. Yeah. I don't agree with any of that.

Mariana van Zeller 58:14 I mean, I, I don't ... Yeah. Of course not.

Joe Rogan 58:14 I don't agree with any of that.

Mariana van Zeller 58:15 I mean, particularly if you're the President of the United States, you're not-

Joe Rogan 58:17 No.

Mariana van Zeller 58:17 You're not.

Joe Rogan 58:18 Well, he's, you know, he's a nut. But it, it's also the only way that that guy survived what he did, what he went through, what they tried to put him through. You have to be a, kind of a nut. They tried to put him in jail, they tried to make a fake Russia collusion thing they did for three years, a concerted effort that was paid for by the Hillary Clinton campaign that funded the Steele dossier, and it was like nutty stuff. Like, tried to, uh, put him ... He got convicted for 34 counts of felony that none of them were a felony. Uh, it was misdemeanor booking, bookkeeping errors because he was paying off-

Mariana van Zeller 58:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:51 ... a, a lady he had sex with. Like-... you gotta be a nut to get through that and not have any feeling about it at all, and just brush it off your shoulder. So yeah, he's, he's fucking crazy. But-

Mariana van Zeller 59:00 I don't think that's because he's cra- ... That's not why he's crazy. I think he's just-

Joe Rogan 59:03 Oh, yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Mariana van Zeller 59:05 ... easy.

Joe Rogan 59:05 I'm saying he is crazy, period, and that's how he got through all that.

Mariana van Zeller 59:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:10 That's the only per- ... kind of person that gets through that and gets to where he is today. You have to be kind of crazy.

Mariana van Zeller 59:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:15 I don't agree with any of that, like, uh, h- w- hating my enemies and going after my enemies, but-

Mariana van Zeller 59:20 And I know you don't agree with the immigration raids either, which I've heard you talk about-

Joe Rogan 59:23 No.

Mariana van Zeller 59:24 ... on this podcast, and I-

Joe Rogan 59:24 Listen, I think-

Mariana van Zeller 59:25 ... am so hap- f- happy that you do talk about it because I do think it's an incredibly important issue. I mean, I live in LA, like-

Joe Rogan 59:30 It is an important, and it's one of those right/left things too, right? Where people on the right are like, "Fucking turn them all back."

Mariana van Zeller 59:35 You have no idea.

Joe Rogan 59:36 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 59:36 Every time I post it about this and I get so much hate also, like I get immediately people saying horrible things about immigrants and saying horrible things about me. And I, uh, b- by ... I get unfollowed immediately, like people don't like it.

Joe Rogan 59:47 The thing is they're like, "Do it the right way." They're like, "Do it the right way." Here's the problem with that. You can't do it the right way. If you live in Mexico or you live in Guatemala and you're walking here and you're getting across the Rio Grande River, and here's the other thing, for the last four years during the Biden administration, it was well-known throughout the world that the borders were wide open. So an estimated, uh, who knows, what is the total number? Put this into Perplexity. That's our sponsor, Perplexity.

Mariana van Zeller 1:00:13 Ooh.

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 Um, what does it say?

Mariana van Zeller 1:00:15 Do you wanna ... Do they wanna sponsor my podcast? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 How many people do they estimate came in-

Mariana van Zeller 1:00:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 ... illegally over the past four years during the Biden administration? But it's millions and millions of people, right? So people knew that they can come across. Now they're here because somebody invited them, right? And then they were bused to these places and flown to these places and they were given EBD cards and-

Mariana van Zeller 1:00:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:36 ... some of them were given cell phones, and now you're gonna arrest them? Now you're gonna like swoop in and handcuff them and, "Fuck," like, "This is crazy. You asked me to be here." They don't know. It's the same goddamn country.

Mariana van Zeller 1:00:46 (laughs) I, okay, I have spent time on, uh, the trail of immigrants. I was in the Dar- in the southern Darien Gap where a lot of the immigrants were coming, and I spoke to dozens of people who are doing the journey. And, um, maybe I just got lucky or unlucky that I spoke to ... The majority of the people that I spoke to had, you know ... A lot of them were from Haiti, from Venezuela-

Joe Rogan 1:01:06 Hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:06 ... places that are completely torn up.

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 Yes.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:09 No economic opportunities whatever-

Joe Rogan 1:01:10 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:10 ... whatsoever. Violence, extreme violence, uh, the- these are the stories that I know are happening. And, and I'll ... I, I have a good friend, his name is Jacob Soboroff, he's a reporter for MSNBC, and he's been covering immigration raids from the beginning. And one of the stories he did, and it w- it's like I, I love that I'm talking about this because this has become really important for me, um, because I'm ... I live in LA and I, I'm affected by this, um, on, on many levels. And because I'm a-

Joe Rogan 1:01:36 Also, you have an accent.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:37 I have an accent.

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 You're from Portugal. (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:38 Exactly. I'm, I am an immigrant, so I know-

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 You might get green-carded.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:40 I know, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 Yeah, they might pull you over.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 Ask for your papers.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:43 They might actually take away my citizenship. Um, but, uh, y- this ... Uh, one of the stories he covered, and I think exemplifies what's happening to me right now, is th- Estela and Nory, this is a mother and a daughter from Guatemala. The daughter was born in Guatemala with her mother, and her mother was gang-raped in this small town. She's from a small, impoverished town, town in rural Guatemala. She was gang-raped, and the next day ... And her daughter watched her being gang-raped. And she was fuel- ... Violently beaten up. She had blood all over her face. They broke her bones. It was horrible. With her daughter, who was young at the time, watching. And the next day she decided she had family members in the US and she decided, "This is it. I can't live here, and I have to take my daughter to a place that's safer." Her daughter was traumatized, by the way, by now. Took her ... Brought ... They came, they came to the US. Um, they immediately went and asked for asylum, which, by the way, most people don't know this, but it is completely legal to become ... to come to the United States whatever way you enter. Even if you enter illegally, it is legal to come to the US and ask for asylum. That is not ... Coming to the US, entering without papers and then asking for asylum is legal. So even when people say, "Yes, but do it le- y- y- you can't do it illegally," you're wrong. It is legal to do so, coming in with no papers and asking for asylum.

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 What are the requirements to, uh, req- to request-

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:02 Uh, persecution. You have to, you have to be a victim of persecution, whether it's, you know, uh, uh, um ...

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 Cartels or .......................... violence.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:10 Yeah, violence, uh, rape, uh, uh, political, w- w- t- uh ... What, what, what are the five things? It's like ... Jamie, can you look this up? It's political, uh, religious, um, political, religious. There's like five reasons why people can be, um, persecuted. And, um, so they came to the US. They immediately started applying for asylum. And there's 11 million cases backlogged right now of people asking for asyl- asylum.

Joe Rogan 1:03:40 Here's a breakdown.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:40 Race, religion, nationality.

Joe Rogan 1:03:41 Race, religion, nationality, political opinion, membership in a particular-

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 ... social group.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:48 Yeah, those are the five reasons.

Joe Rogan 1:03:48 So just those five things.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:51 Interesting. So political persecution also involves imprisonment, torture, or threats of violence. Huh.

Narrator 1:03:58 You have to answer to that question too.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Yeah, how ... What's the numbers? Uh, 10.8 million.

Narrator 1:04:04 This is encounters. It says encounters, though, where they crossed and were stop- stopped.

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 Oh.

Narrator 1:04:10 But this also goes on to say-

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 According to the Trump administrations ... Well, let me say this.

Narrator 1:04:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:14 According to someone I spoke to at the Trump administration, they said they, they believe it's 20 million over four years.

Mariana van Zeller 1:04:20 Oh, I don't think that's done. I think that number is highly exaggerated.

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 Well, this says, um, in addition to these, uh, apprehends- apprehensions and encounters, officials reported an estimated two million gotaways, individuals who were detected crossing the border illegally but evaded capture. Combining these figures suggest roughly 12.8 million total unauthorized border crossings or attempts during the Biden administration.

Mariana van Zeller 1:04:45 Or attempts.

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 So not 20, but 12.8.

Mariana van Zeller 1:04:47 Yeah, or attempts.

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 That's still quite a bit.

Mariana van Zeller 1:04:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:49 Here's another thing that people keep talking about is how many people, um, Obama deported.... but I think that's not... I think they're saying it incorrectly, 'cause I think when they say that Obama deported three million people, they always use this like as an, as an a-ha against Trump deportations. I believe Obama's deportation numbers count turn-aways, like when someone makes it to the border and then you send them back.

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:15 Very different-

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:16 Mm. Yeah-

Joe Rogan 1:05:16 ... than running into Home Depot-

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:18 ... yeah, and he was nicknamed The Deporter in Chief. Right, right. Grabbing people.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 ... and grabbing people-

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:20 Grabbing people. Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 ... like with a mask over your face.

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:23 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 Like what we're seeing with ICE.

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:24 Right. Well, or, or worse than that. Like, even worse than going to the Home Depot is the case of Estela and Ori, where they were going to check in on their procedures at the courthouse. And when they went to check on how their asylum case was going, they were detained. They had been living here for several years. The daughter is now, is star athlete.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 Ugh.

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:44 Uh, amazing student. But wait, even worse. So they are deported back to Guatemala, taken, like their family didn't even know they were, where they were. They were taken. They took away her medication. She had high blood pressure, the, the mother, high blood pressure. They got to Guatemala. They don't know, they haven't lived there in decades. They have no idea where, what to do. They have no money in their pocket. They can't... They don't have access to the medication. So the mother dies.

Joe Rogan 1:06:08 Oh, my God.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:08 And the daughter stays in Guatemala, and there's footage of her holding the coffin until it's buried-

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 Oh, my God.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:14 ... and her wanting to be with her mother. And these are the stories. I mean, e- even if this just happened with one person, we should be asking if this is the right thing to do. But this is happening to, you know, hundreds if not thousands of people all across the country and this is not all right. I mean, this is not all right. We should not be doing this.

Joe Rogan 1:06:31 Yo, especially if someone's already been granted asylum. Like there should be-

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:35 So their, their asylum procedure was ongoing.

Joe Rogan 1:06:38 Okay.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:38 They hadn't been granted yet, but that is... You, you can't-

Joe Rogan 1:06:40 But still.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:40 ... do, you can't remove somebody who's ongoing procedure, asylum procedure. And plus, that's not-

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Meaning, meaning she was trying to do it the right way.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:48 Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:06:49 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:49 And, and that's not what we were sold, right?

Joe Rogan 1:06:51 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:51 And a lot of people voted for Trump because they thought that he was gonna go after the criminals. You know-

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 Well, I think very unfortunately, a lot of this stuff is political. And, um, well, and the, the fear is the both sides fear. Right? So I don't know if you know this, but Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, who is running for vice president, he just passed, uh-

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:12 You also had him on, right?

Joe Rogan 1:07:13 No, no, I did not. (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:14 Oh, you didn't. I'm so sorry.

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 Uh, I, he... They just passed something in Minnesota where illegal immigrants are allowed to have driver's licenses and vote, which is kind of crazy, um, because-

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:28 Are you sure?

Joe Rogan 1:07:28 Yes. Yes.

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:29 That they are allowed to vote?

Joe Rogan 1:07:30 Just yesterday. Yes. Just yesterday. We'll look it up.

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:32 Il- illegal immigrants as in they-

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 As in not from the country.

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:34 ... they don't even have a green card.

Joe Rogan 1:07:36 As in not supposed to be here.

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:38 And they're allowed to vote and what?

Joe Rogan 1:07:39 Can have driver's licenses and can vote. Let's find out. Th- this is the story that I read.

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:46 Jamie, find out. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:46 I read this story and he was like-

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:48 I don't believe this.

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 ... proudly talking about... I know. Sounds crazy, right?

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:50 It sounds crazy. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 Um...

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:51 Because I became a citizen so I could vote and it took me a long time to get my citizenship.

Joe Rogan 1:07:54 Oh, yeah. No, I know a lot of friends who became American citizens and it, it was a long-

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:58 ... grueling process and they had to prove that they were exceptional, that there was a reason for them to be here.

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:04 A lot of them were comedians and entertainers and-

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:07 I didn't have to prove it. (laughs)

Narrator 1:08:07 I'm not seeing that.

Joe Rogan 1:08:08 What is it?

Narrator 1:08:09 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:08:09 What are the facts of the case?

Narrator 1:08:11 I typed in Tim Walz passed illegal immigrant vote and-

Joe Rogan 1:08:14 It was all over Twitter a couple of days ago.

Narrator 1:08:16 ... the response is Twitter Tim Walz has not passed a bill.

Joe Rogan 1:08:18 Okay. Um, driver's licenses. Find that.

Narrator 1:08:22 That was something that happened in 2023, it said.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 Yeah. But there was something that just happened a couple of days ago.

Narrator 1:08:28 I don't...

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:31 Find it, find it.

Joe Rogan 1:08:32 Yeah. I'll find it.

Narrator 1:08:38 I'll check on Twitter.

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 Illegal.

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:41 I, I, I have to say, I find it very hard to believe that that's true.

Joe Rogan 1:08:44 Uh, me too, but n- but not because I think that what I was getting at is a lot of the reason for wanting an open border is congressional seats because one of the things about when you do a census, it doesn't count how many people are citizens. It counts how many people-

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:00 ... and so you can get extra congressional seats if you have more illegal immigrants in your city and you have much more political power that way.

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:06 But why do you get more seats if you k- they can't vote?

Joe Rogan 1:09:09 It's just how it works. It's just how the set... It's the way our census is set up. So the way a census is set up, it's just counting people. It's not counting people that are legal here.

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:18 Oh, the census. Okay. Counting people who-

Joe Rogan 1:09:19 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:19 ... aren't here. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:19 So the census is how they dictate the amount of congressional seats.

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:23 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 1:09:23 Here's what was going around Twitter.

Joe Rogan 1:09:25 Okay. Minnesota Elections Confirms Non-citizens Can Vote with Driver's Licenses. October 14, '25. This is it. Uh, state hearing Minnesota Director Elections Paul Linnell testified that non-citizens holding driver's licenses under the 2023 Driver's Licenses For All law can register to vote and cast ballots by affirming eligibility as the ID verifies identity, but not citizenship. Sati- uh, Secretary of State Steve Simon, Steve Simon noted that such voting is illegal and rare with post-election adults identifying discrepancies for prosecution, including 59, just 59 potential cases in 2024 that they... Um, the testimony has prompted Republican demands for voter roll audits and reforms conci- uh, coinciding with federal lawsuit against Minnesota for incomplete registration data.

Mariana van Zeller 1:10:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:19 So at the very least, this is opening up the door for people that are non-citizens to vote. And it seems like they're confirming that non-citizens with this driver's license can vote. Um-

Mariana van Zeller 1:10:32 That, that it can be-

Joe Rogan 1:10:32 That, that it can be done.

Mariana van Zeller 1:10:33 It can be consequence of it. It's not... That's not the goal of it.

Joe Rogan 1:10:36 Right. That's not the go- But, but it's also-

Mariana van Zeller 1:10:37 That's not the goal. It's the con-

Joe Rogan 1:10:38 It is a con-

Mariana van Zeller 1:10:38 It's a, it's a consequence that can happen.

Joe Rogan 1:10:39 It is a consequence of it.

Mariana van Zeller 1:10:40 But I don't think it's purposely done. I mean, I think that it's trying to make it easier for people to vote and unfortunately it's a little bit like the rehab scam, right?