Joe Rogan Experience #2395 - Mariana van Zeller

1. 0:00 – 2:43

   Quitting alcohol, stress relief, and Mariana’s emergency appendectomy

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays)

   2. MZMariana van Zeller0:12

      Is there really nothing for you? That glass of wine is so nasty. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Yeah. W- one glass of wine I do not think is bad for you. Uh, it's not-

   4. MZMariana van Zeller0:18

      Yeah, that's all I have.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      ... great for you.

   6. MZMariana van Zeller0:20

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      But a glass of wine relaxes you and there's probably benefit in being relaxed.

   8. MZMariana van Zeller0:24

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:25

      Yeah.

   10. MZMariana van Zeller0:25

       I agree.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       But the problem was I own a nightclub and I'm there all the time.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller0:29

       Yeah, so you're drinking an half in a glass.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       And I'm, you know, out with the fellas and then I'd maybe have a couple glasses of whiskey on a podcast with some guys.

   14. MZMariana van Zeller0:36

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       And then ... When I stopped, I was like, "Oh my God, I feel so much better." (laughs) Like, why was I poisoning myself? (laughs)

   16. MZMariana van Zeller0:42

       Really, you did feel much better?

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Yeah.

   18. MZMariana van Zeller0:43

       Immediately you felt it?

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Yeah, because, uh, when you think about it ... We rolling?

   20. NANarrator0:47

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       So, when I stopped drinking, uh, I was probably having, like, two or three glasses of some kind of alcohol a night, two or three nights a week.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller0:59

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       And then I'd go out to dinner with my wife and have, like, a glass or two of wine. That's a lot of drinks-

   24. MZMariana van Zeller1:04

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       ... over the week. And you don't think it's much 'cause you're not drunk, but the next day I'd be like, ugh, like a little draggy.

   26. MZMariana van Zeller1:11

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       Like when I go to the gym. And that's gone.

   28. MZMariana van Zeller1:15

       That's great.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       Yeah. Just-

   30. MZMariana van Zeller1:16

       I wish I had that ass strength. (laughs)
2. 2:43 – 3:38

   Why NatGeo’s Trafficked ended—and the launch of “The Hidden Third” podcast

   1. MZMariana van Zeller2:43

      Yeah. Don't, don't mean to cause you nightmares, but, uh, I love doing what I do. You know, we've done five seasons of Trafficked. The last season just premiered a couple of months ago, um, it's available now on Hulu, and, uh, unfortunately it's the last season of Trafficked, um-

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:58

      Why is that?

   3. MZMariana van Zeller3:00

      I think a few reasons. I think it's, you know, it's a risky show to put together, right? It's a costly show. It's, um ... Disney decided that NatGeo should be doing more natural history and animal programming and, uh, yeah, I think Trafficked is just a difficult, it is a really challenging show to put together. But I'm incredibly proud of the work we've done and this last season, the fifth season has some of my favorite stories we've done. And, um, I'm now starting a podcast, oh, you know.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:28

      Nice.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller3:29

      I launched it yesterday.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:30

      Congrat- well, about time.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller3:30

      So now I'm your competition. (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:33

      (laughs)

   9. MZMariana van Zeller3:33

      It's about time, yeah. (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:34

       Um, someone will do your show again somewhere else, though.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller3:37

       Yeah, so-

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:37

       It's too good.

3. 3:38 – 7:50

   The ‘Hidden Third’: how black and gray markets make up ~35% of the economy

   1. MZMariana van Zeller3:38

      ... this is what I'm hoping is with the podcast, it's on YouTube and I'm growing it into something bigger. So, it starts with interviews, the podcast called The Hidden Third, uh, because an estimated 35% of the global economy are these black and gray markets, which is what I've reported on for-

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:51

      Whoa.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller3:51

      ... 12 or so years.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:51

      Wait a minute. Really?

   5. MZMariana van Zeller3:52

      It's crazy number, right? Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:54

      35% of the economy?

   7. MZMariana van Zeller3:55

      An estimated 35%, which is what economists call The Hidden Third. So, we're not just talking about illegal activities and goods like drugs and scams and whatnot, and guns, we're also talking about un- so the gray, that's the black market, and then there's the gray market which are the, is the irregular, unregulated part of the economy. So, untaxed work, untaxed goods, everything from like, the man selling fruit on the corner, um, you know, to, um, other, other jobs and, and goods that are untaxed. But this actually has an effect on all of us because it's less money that comes in for schools and infrastructure and hospitals and all the stuff we need. And then apart from all that we know which is the black market and how that affects us all, which is, you know, whether you talk about guns or drugs or immigration. I mean, it all has a direct impact on our lives. So, with this podcast, what I really wanted to do is after reporting on these black markets for 20 years, is I wanted to have a place like this where I can have-

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:50

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MZMariana van Zeller4:51

      ... intimate, raw, you know, sometimes difficult conversations with people who have lived or are living on the other side of the law, and, um, who, uh, you know, I wanted to figure out why somebody decides to become a smuggler, a trafficker, a scammer, a, a bookie, a, you know, all these crazy lives that people lead. Uh, see how it affects us all, understand why the, what they do affects us all, and also, I think the most important part for me, which has always been, and I, I've talked about this with you, which is trying to understand if, um, the circumstances were different, if it could have been you and me doing that, you know, geographically-

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:29

       I think under, most certainly-

   11. MZMariana van Zeller5:30

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:31

       ... that that's the case.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller5:31

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:32

       Yeah, most certainly that's the case geographically.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller5:34

       Oh, uh, 100% geographically.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:36

       Yeah.

   17. MZMariana van Zeller5:36

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:36

       If you have no options and you're stuck in a third world-

   19. MZMariana van Zeller5:40

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:40

       ... country, guess what?

   21. MZMariana van Zeller5:41

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:41

       You know, you do what you gotta do.

   23. MZMariana van Zeller5:42

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan5:43

       Yeah.

   25. MZMariana van Zeller5:43

       It was that story that we did in, uh, the same episode you mentioned, the cocaine trafficking, which I will never forget, which was the kid who was carrying in his backpack, right? He was 16, 17-year-old kid carrying cocaine, 20 kilos of cocaine on his back for days on end on the, in the jungles, had seen so many of his friends being killed in front of him by rebel gangs, rival gangs. And, uh, when he, um, you know, when I asked him, "Why are you doing what you do?" He says, "Because I've always wanted to be a dentist. I wanna go to school and be a dentist, but my family's too poor and they can't afford my education, and the only job that I have available for me now is, uh, is doing this cocaine trafficking or, you know, carrying cocaine on my back."And these are stories I hear all the time, so the i- the idea of being able to place ourselves in people's shoes and understand that, yes, even the people that we consider the bad guys could be me and you, as, as you know, has always been very important for me. So the podcast allows me to do that.

   26. JRJoe Rogan6:36

       Well, that's great.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller6:37

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan6:37

       When, when you say that, like, it's one-third, how much of it is stuff that's not dangerous, like selling fruit on the side of the road, and-

   29. MZMariana van Zeller6:45

       So it's-

   30. JRJoe Rogan6:46

       ... untaxed labor?
4. 7:50 – 17:59

   Getting criminals to talk: trust-building, ground rules, and why they agree to interviews

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:50

      Is it difficult to get people to come and sit with you on a podcast and talk about illegal activities?

   2. MZMariana van Zeller7:56

      Yes, but it's a- it was also on the show. I think the harder part is that on the show, we figured out a way of how to make them comfortable because I would go to them, right? On the podcast, it's harder to convince an active trafficker or (laughs) smuggler to come and sit down in my office.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:13

      Right, they would think it's a setup.

   4. MZMariana van Zeller8:14

      So yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:16

      Yeah.

   6. MZMariana van Zeller8:16

      So, uh, you know, a lot of times, the meetings that we had on the show happened in undisclosed locations, in vans, for example, or in places that they felt comfortable with, their, you know, drug labs or their drug houses or their homes sometimes. So this has been a little bit harder, but we're, we're making it, we're making it work. We're having ... We're hoping that it grows, so then we actually have money to start traveling more and going to some of these places.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:40

      Is this something that you always wanted to do, like do a podcast, or is it something that w- was a necessity when the show was canceled, or did you just think, "Maybe I should branch out?"

   8. MZMariana van Zeller8:51

      I've always wanted to do it, and I tried h- ... We had done an iteration of it a couple of years ago, but I just didn't have the time because I was traveling, you know, half the year or more, um, for Trafficked. So it was really hard to do a weekly podcast. It was almost impossible. But I spent so much time talking to people, uh, who have really interesting backgrounds. And then we use only five minutes of their interview if, if that.

   9. JRJoe Rogan9:16

      Mm.

   10. MZMariana van Zeller9:16

       And these are fascinating people that, again-

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:19

       Do you have access to that f- footage?

   12. MZMariana van Zeller9:22

       The footage, oh, that I-

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:23

       The footage that you edited out?

   14. MZMariana van Zeller9:25

       Uh, yes. I mean, yes.

   15. JRJoe Rogan9:27

       But do you have access to it? Like are you allowed to use it?

   16. MZMariana van Zeller9:29

       Or, or is it a- ... If it's owned by, by National Geographic-

   17. JRJoe Rogan9:31

       Right.

   18. MZMariana van Zeller9:31

       ... it's owned by National Geographic.

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:33

       I wonder if they would sign off on letting you put that on your podcast 'cause that would be fascinating as well because I g- I bet there's a lot that was missed on the editing floor.

   20. MZMariana van Zeller9:40

       Oh, you have no idea.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:41

       Yeah.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller9:41

       Yes, absolutely. But the good news is that I have still all these-

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:44

       Come on, Nat Geo.

   24. MZMariana van Zeller9:45

       (laughs) I know, it's-

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:45

       Let her have the footage. It would only help.

   26. MZMariana van Zeller9:47

       But I have all the contacts, so as lo- ... As soon as I start bran- ... As this starts building up, the podcast, the hope is that, um, I'll build it myself from the ground up 'cause all the contacts are mine, you know, all the expertise is mine.

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:00

       Yeah, but cont- ... You have contacts with, like, assassins and drug dealers.

   28. MZMariana van Zeller10:03

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan10:03

       Do y- y- ... Text each other? "Hey, what's up?" (laughs)

   30. MZMariana van Zeller10:05

       Yeah. Yeah.
5. 17:59 – 21:23

   Counterfeit currency inside look: ‘the finisher,’ materials, and distribution into the U.S.

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:59

      The guy who makes counterfeit bills, what's his process?

   2. MZMariana van Zeller18:02

      Oh, it's freaking fascinating.

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:03

      'Cause does he replicate a, a dollar bill with all, like, the-

   4. MZMariana van Zeller18:07

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:07

      ... little things inside of it?

   6. MZMariana van Zeller18:09

      Everything. It was incredible. So, there's different... There's the graphics person. There's the printer, and then, then he is... He does the finishing job. He's the finisher.And, uh, he said he was the best finisher in the job and I said he's... I, I started calling him Cristiano Ronaldo, the Portuguese football player, 'cause he's the finisher in soccer. (laughs) So I called him Ronaldo. "Okay, you're Ronaldo." And he uses... he uses a, a, um, it's kinda like a porridge that I used to eat when I was a kid in, in Portugal. It's called like a... it's a type of like a Cerelac. You don't, you guys don't have it here, but it's like a, a meal, um, what do you call that? Like cornmeal.

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:42

      Oatmeal? Cornmeal?

   8. MZMariana van Zeller18:42

      Like a cornmeal. Um, and he uses that, and I saw him using it. Uh, um, it's not Cerelac actually, it's Maizena, which is another brand. (laughs) But it... he uses this sort of cornmeal to finish these bills to make it the consistency when you touch it, feel exactly like the real stuff. And-

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:59

      Is it made with the same paper?

   10. MZMariana van Zeller19:01

       Uh, no, it's a different paper. The paper is the hardest part to get, 'cause the paper you can only get, um, in the US Federal Reserves or wherever the paper comes from, but it's not-

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:11

       But that seems like an easy thing to duplicate.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller19:13

       So, I know, but that's... Yeah. It's-

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:13

       Paper.

   14. MZMariana van Zeller19:14

       ... not very hard, and particularly if you put the, you know, all the little creases and curves and what... Yes, makes it-

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:21

       What about those little things that you can only see with like a flashlight and stuff like that?

   16. MZMariana van Zeller19:24

       They, they have ways around that too.

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:26

       Wow.

   18. MZMariana van Zeller19:26

       It was incredible. We brought some home, haven't used it, it's at my office. (laughs) But it is... I mean, it can fool-

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:32

       Isn't it illegal to possess that stuff?

   20. MZMariana van Zeller19:34

       Okay, so we actually didn't bring the actual... We, we brought the cut-outs so I... we wouldn't be able to use it, but it's like... it's in the background of my podcast, so... (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:41

       Whoa.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller19:42

       It's, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:42

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   24. MZMariana van Zeller20:53

       (laughs) You can see the cut-out, and it's really... it's phenomenal. It's crazy.

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:58

       What... How many bills that are counterfeit make their way into our currency?

   26. MZMariana van Zeller21:03

       Oh, this-

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:03

       Is this it right here?

   28. MZMariana van Zeller21:04

       Yeah. This is it. This is the finisher. Yeah. Here he is. And you see, he's teaching, he's showing me.

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:10

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller21:10

       And there's a glue too. Yeah.
6. 21:23 – 24:47

   Cartel USA: Sinaloa access, filming labs, and the rules of cartel territory

   1. MZMariana van Zeller21:23

   2. JRJoe Rogan21:23

      And how, how much-

   3. MZMariana van Zeller21:25

      Cooked his porridge, you see. Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan21:27

      Yeah. And so he scrubs it down a little bit?

   5. MZMariana van Zeller21:29

      Yeah. Yeah, with a toothbrush.

   6. JRJoe Rogan21:31

      How-

   7. MZMariana van Zeller21:31

      All stuff that you bought at the store, like next door, that, that, you know, they-

   8. JRJoe Rogan21:35

      How much currency goes through this guy's production?

   9. MZMariana van Zeller21:39

      Oh, I cannot remember. This was five years ago with season one, but it was a lot. And it's the US Secret Services that are in charge of, uh, going after these guys. So we actually saw the real money being made when we came back to the US and, um... But I can't remember, but it was millions of dollars. I mean, there was... there were... it was like five or six families in Peru, in Lima, they're the center of all this, that were make... that were in charge... uh, that were the best of the best at making these. And we got inside one of these.

   10. JRJoe Rogan22:08

       And how does that stuff get into US distribution?

   11. MZMariana van Zeller22:11

       US? Uh, usually in bags. Um, commercial airlines, just like drugs, a lot of drugs make it in commercial airlines. Same thing, commercial airlines bags, people would carry. Uh, the money mules would carry it, actual carrying money, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan22:23

       And then, when it gets to America, what do they do with it?

   13. MZMariana van Zeller22:26

       They distribute it. So, it's funny, it's interesting. They actually start... they go to small towns and they distribute it in grocery stores and they don't go to like a Walmart or a big superstore. They go to small first, and that's how it gets in the general... That's how... that's how it starts getting used.

   14. JRJoe Rogan22:41

       So they just buy things with it?

   15. MZMariana van Zeller22:41

       They buy things and, uh... Oh, I wish I remembered. This was five years ago. Um, they buy things but they also have people that exchange that for less cash. Yeah, that's what it was. I think they get... end up getting people-

   16. JRJoe Rogan22:55

       Oh, so people that know?

   17. MZMariana van Zeller22:56

       Yeah, that know and they end up getting like 70% of what... I think it was something like 70% of the actual cost for real bills. So they get real money in exchange for getting people-

   18. JRJoe Rogan23:06

       They get 70% of what a real bill is worth?

   19. MZMariana van Zeller23:08

       It was... I mean, the whole operation, I think was.

   20. JRJoe Rogan23:10

       So if you have a $20 bill, you get 70% of that back in profit? Like a fake $20 bill?

   21. MZMariana van Zeller23:15

       Back in profit, yeah. The, the head of the group that then sells the bills-

   22. JRJoe Rogan23:20

       Wow.

   23. MZMariana van Zeller23:20

       ... when they're made.

   24. JRJoe Rogan23:20

       I would've thought it'd be way less than that-

   25. MZMariana van Zeller23:22

       It was like 70%.

   26. JRJoe Rogan23:22

       ... for someone to be willing to exchange you real money for fake money.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller23:25

       Yeah, I have to... I have to verify again (laughs) 'cause it was five years ago.

   28. JRJoe Rogan23:29

       Okay. Okay.

   29. MZMariana van Zeller23:29

       But we've done 50 episodes, but I think it was something like that, if I remember right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan23:33

       That's crazy though that it just gets distributed by small businesses.
7. 24:47 – 31:11

   Cartel logistics inside the U.S.: ‘El Gringo,’ airline shipping, and the risk calculus

   1. MZMariana van Zeller24:47

      It was crazy, yeah. But this all ... Back to the story of why I talked about this guy, about why people talk to us. And, oh, and back to the Cartel USA story, um, which, uh, started in Sinaloa. There was a point to this. You were asking me about how it ended up in the U.S. Oh, the ... What I discovered with cartels' operations in the United States. Um, so one of the people we interviewed, which was really fascinating, um ... And it was somebody who had this ... Carried this load on his back and why he ta- decided to talk to us, was this guy called El Gringo, or we called him El Gringo. And El Gringo is an American citizen who doesn't speak a word of Spanish and who's sort of the wholesale buyer of drugs from the cartel, and then is in charge of distributing the drugs here in the U.S. He distributes most of his drugs, uh, through commercial airlines, usually Delta because they have really good baggage fees. They ... 70 pounds, uh, two bags, 70 pounds if you fly business. And so a lot of times it was strippers who would carry the drugs from the West Coast to the East Coast. And he ... One of the things I'll never forget, he says, "If you're taking a Delta flight from the West Coast to the East Coast, I guarantee that there is a very high chance that somebody is carrying drugs on one of those flights."

   2. JRJoe Rogan25:59

      Wow. And you said strippers?

   3. MZMariana van Zeller26:01

      Strippers, yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan26:02

      Why do they use strippers?

   5. MZMariana van Zeller26:03

      Because, uh, they are, uh ... Because people don't suspect. It's a woman, so people are less suspicious of women.

   6. JRJoe Rogan26:10

      Oh.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller26:11

      And there's a h- higher chance that they'll make it and they are more likely to take the money to do this.

   8. JRJoe Rogan26:17

      Wow.

   9. MZMariana van Zeller26:17

      In this case, to do this job. Or they ... I mean, at least those are the people that he found would agree to do this.

   10. JRJoe Rogan26:23

       Boy, you-

   11. MZMariana van Zeller26:23

       No, I mean, I don't want to say anything bad about strippers, but ... (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan26:25

       You get busted doing that, though.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller26:27

       Yep.

   14. JRJoe Rogan26:27

       That is a big penalty.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller26:29

       Yeah, it's a-

   16. JRJoe Rogan26:29

       You're going to jail for a long time.

   17. MZMariana van Zeller26:31

       I know. It's a ter- It's obviously a, a terrible idea.

   18. JRJoe Rogan26:32

       Such a risk.

   19. MZMariana van Zeller26:33

       Yeah. So this guy, El Gringo, decided to talk to me, um, and he was the one who contacted me. He contacted me initially and when ... Uh, telling me that he had a story he wanted shared, that he was, uh, involved with the cartel. And then so when we started doing the story about the cartel, I reached back out to him and said, "Actually, I'm doing a story about cartel presence here. Would you want to c- you know, be on the show?" And, um, and he agreed. And he, uh, traveled out to me and we met and he said, "Look, I've been dying to tell this story, because if I get whacked," uh, which he thought he might, he wanted his story to be out there. He wanted somebody to have heard his whole story.

   20. JRJoe Rogan27:11

       Wow. Ugh.

   21. MZMariana van Zeller27:12

       Yeah, and he'd been threatened by the cartel. They'd been ... Sent him photos of his house and where ... They knew exactly where he lived and where his family was, so yeah, crazy story.

   22. JRJoe Rogan27:21

       Geez.

   23. MZMariana van Zeller27:22

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan27:24

       So-

   25. MZMariana van Zeller27:24

       No, it was a crazy story.

   26. JRJoe Rogan27:25

       ... when you go over and you have these conversations with the cartels, like, wha- what is that like? Do they blindfold you and drive you out there? Do they take your phone away?

   27. MZMariana van Zeller27:35

       Yeah, um, they ask for our phones to be off, um, turned off.

   28. JRJoe Rogan27:37

       But that's not good enough.

   29. MZMariana van Zeller27:39

       It's-

   30. JRJoe Rogan27:39

       Don't they know that's not good enough?
8. 31:11 – 39:19

   Drug policy and unintended consequences: Portugal, Oregon, and ‘The Great American Rehab Scam’

   1. JRJoe Rogan31:11

      Is there anyone that has a realistic solution to how to at least mitigate some of that?

   2. MZMariana van Zeller31:17

      We've talked about this. Uh, y- uh, we, we had a, a little bit of a debate about this last time, because I keep giving the example of Portugal, and you said... Which has decriminalized drugs, right?

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:27

      Yeah.

   4. MZMariana van Zeller31:27

      And I know Portugal is not the United States. We're 10 million people, we're a small country, but i- whatever... We w- i- it worked there. Um-

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:36

      Yeah.

   6. MZMariana van Zeller31:37

      Drug abuse went down.

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:38

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MZMariana van Zeller31:38

      Incarceration went down. H- HIV went down-

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:41

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MZMariana van Zeller31:41

       ... levels of HIV went down. So it worked there. They tried it in Oregon, right? It went terribly.

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:46

       Yeah, but Oregon's a bad place to try it.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller31:49

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan31:49

       Because Oregon was already so lawless that going to Oregon, it, like, allowed people to, like, ramp it up. And so, because you could get anything and everything was decriminalized, they just went ham.

   14. MZMariana van Zeller32:00

       Yeah. And also, they didn't have the system in place for people who actually wanted rehab.

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:05

       Right.

   16. MZMariana van Zeller32:05

       And, and so when you don't, what are people gonna do? They're gonna go back to-

   17. JRJoe Rogan32:08

       But even then-

   18. MZMariana van Zeller32:09

       ... to drugs.

   19. JRJoe Rogan32:09

       ... rehab is very ineffective.

   20. MZMariana van Zeller32:12

       Y-

   21. JRJoe Rogan32:12

       Like, percentage wise.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller32:14

       It is. That's, was another episode we did this season that you should watch. It's about, it's called The Rehab Scam. It's The Great American Rehab Scam.

   23. JRJoe Rogan32:20

       Yes.

   24. MZMariana van Zeller32:20

       And it's about how in California... We did, we filmed in Arizona and California. In California alone, we got a, an insurance, the head of the insurance, um, investigations in California, an insurance fraud investigator in California told us that in his estimates, that he said, they're probably very low, 10% of the thousands of rehab facilities out there are probably a fraud and, and a scam, in which they get-

   25. JRJoe Rogan32:46

       10%?

   26. MZMariana van Zeller32:47

       10%, which is a crazy number. But he thinks it's a low number, that it's probably much higher than that. So we, what we, our story was all about body brokering and rehab scams. And it was-

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:57

       Bo- body brokering?

   28. MZMariana van Zeller32:58

       Body brokering, yeah. It's, uh-

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:59

       What is that?

   30. MZMariana van Zeller33:00

       It's an i- it's a term applied, that applies to, uh, rehab scams. So rehab scams is basically the, the, uh, buying and selling of addicts (laughs) in this billion dollar market, right? So it's, um, um, these f- they create these fake, uh, rehab centers that bill insurance for treatments that they are not actually giving people. Um, so, uh, for example, it, it's a huge problem in Arizona. That's why we started... And in California, but we started in Arizona. Native Americans have really easy access to, um, l- health insurance through the, the Indian American Health Plan that they created. And it started as a good thing, because there's... It, it was difficult, a lot of people lived in reservations far away. A lot of people, you know, because of generational trauma and alcohol abuse and drug abuse, there's a real need, uh, for health insurance and for them to have access to health insurance. So you have these wh- huge communities that when COVID happened, uh, the state made it even easier for them to get the help that they needed through health insurance. But all these bad actors realized, "Oh, this is great. We're just gonna build these fake rehab centers, go around in white vans..." Literally, there's, like, thousands of people still missing in Arizona. Most of them, uh, Native Americans. And they go out in white vans to these reservations in Arizona and New Mexico, and they bring people, people who, you know, um, have problems with drug and alcohol, and they bring people to these s- centers. And then they start billing insurance, they get you on an insurance plan, and they start billing insurance, crazy amounts of money. Like, we spoke... We were investigating this one facility that they were making 800 and something, um, million doll- sorry, 800 and something thousand, uh, $870,000 a week, a week, from, you know, dozens of people that they were housing.
9. 39:19 – 42:41

   Tranq dope and the fentanyl escalation: xylazine, ‘zombie’ streets, and catastrophic wounds

   1. MZMariana van Zeller39:19

      One of the other stories we did this season was about tranq dope. Do you know what tranq dope is?

   2. JRJoe Rogan39:23

      Tranq dope?

   3. MZMariana van Zeller39:24

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan39:24

      No.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller39:25

      It's, fentanyl now is being mixed with a thing called xylazine, which is an animal tranquilizer.

   6. JRJoe Rogan39:30

      Oh, fun.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller39:30

      Ah, so fun. Uh, it's horrible. Um, and 90% of the fentanyl that is now being, that's coming out of Philadelphia, you know Kensington? Have you s- you've seen the zombies-

   8. JRJoe Rogan39:41

      Oh, I have seen tranq where those people-

   9. MZMariana van Zeller39:43

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan39:43

       ... like, fall over?

   11. MZMariana van Zeller39:43

       Yeah. Like-

   12. JRJoe Rogan39:44

       Yeah.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller39:44

       ... like zombies they're walking down-

   14. JRJoe Rogan39:45

       They're like they're doing crazy yoga.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller39:47

       Yeah. In Kensington it's the saddest thing. So we spent time in Kensington filming.

   16. JRJoe Rogan39:51

       What is it about that stu- is it the tranquilizer that makes them just fall over like that standing up?

   17. MZMariana van Zeller39:56

       Yeah, yeah, it's part of it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan39:57

       Oh.

   19. MZMariana van Zeller39:58

       So it's, it's a really interesting, you know, as we all know, it all started with OxyContin and then it went to heroin. And heroin was a great high for people who are addicted to opiates because it was a powerful high and it would ke- keep you high for a long time. And then came fentanyl, and fentanyl gives you an even more powerful high but it's fast acting so you get out of it fast. So somebody realized if we mix tranq, um, animal tranquilizer with this-

   20. JRJoe Rogan40:24

       Mm.

   21. MZMariana van Zeller40:25

       ... you will, you will still have the big high but it will extend the time that you have that high. And what is happening to, you know, thousands of people across the US is that they are taking these drugs, getting the high that they want-

   22. JRJoe Rogan40:40

       They're just doing it like this, so is it IV?

   23. MZMariana van Zeller40:42

       Oh, my God, it's horrible. No, they're shooting it up.

   24. JRJoe Rogan40:44

       They're shooting it-

   25. MZMariana van Zeller40:44

       And this is what we shot in Kensington.

   26. JRJoe Rogan40:45

       ... intravenously. Yeah.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller40:46

       Yeah, they shoot it up, and what we shot in Kensington-

   28. JRJoe Rogan40:48

       Oh, this is it? And where is this?

   29. NANarrator40:51

       This is Philly.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller40:52

       Philly, outside of Philly. It's in Kensington.
10. 42:41 – 48:54

    Psychedelics as treatment: ibogaine, trauma, and why drug scheduling is ‘backwards’

    1. JRJoe Rogan42:41

       Yeah. Are you aware of Ibogaine?

    2. MZMariana van Zeller42:43

       Yes. I, I listened-

    3. JRJoe Rogan42:44

       Yeah.

    4. MZMariana van Zeller42:44

       ... to the interview you did with, uh-

    5. JRJoe Rogan42:46

       With Rick Perry?

    6. MZMariana van Zeller42:47

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan42:47

       Governor, former governor of Texas.

    8. MZMariana van Zeller42:48

       Yeah, yeah. That was fascinating.

    9. JRJoe Rogan42:49

       Yeah. That is insanely effective and, um, readily available in Mexico. And now, uh, fortunately because of former governor Rick Perry, it's available in Texas. So they're doing it now in Texas with, uh, soldiers with PTSD. People coming back from the war with great efficacy, and people that, that have also been hooked on substances because of some of things that they've seen. So I think that's a great doorway into the right. Because the right has always viewed these things, like particularly a psychedelic, which Ibogaine is, I guess. It, it's category one, right? It's Schedule I. I don't know. I think it's Schedule I. Is Ibogaine Schedule I? Um, but it's certainly illegal in America and it's thought of as ... I don't know how you could ever consider it recreational because it's a, apparently a very brutal experience and very introspective. And most people say, "I did not enjoy that at all. I hated it." Uh, I had Dakota Meyer on the podcast and he talked about it and he's like, "I wanted to punch the guy who gave it to me."

    10. MZMariana van Zeller43:52

        Wow. Wow.

    11. JRJoe Rogan43:52

        He's like, "It's fucking terrible." For like one whole day you're going ever, over every horrible aspect of your life and it finds, like, the pathways in your brain that created behavior afterwards. And it like gives you this like insanely introspective slideshow of your life and sort of lays out, this is why you're an addict. This is why you're a gambling addict. This is why you're addicted to ruining your life. Like, these are the things that happened to you when you were young and these are things that you did when you were an adult that you had shame over and all these different thing. These are the things that you've seen that are horrific, that have scarred you. And it has like an 80% effective rate for people getting off drugs-

    12. MZMariana van Zeller44:33

        Oh, wow. That's really high.

    13. JRJoe Rogan44:33

        ... with one session and it's in the 90s with two sessions.

    14. MZMariana van Zeller44:37

        Wow. That is crazy high.

    15. JRJoe Rogan44:39

        Yeah. Exactly.

    16. MZMariana van Zeller44:40

        And it's illegal here, yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan44:42

        Exactly. Well, it is now legal in Texas. Well, I don't know what the regulations are or how they're doing it, but at least they're, they're giving it to some people in Texas.

    18. MZMariana van Zeller44:50

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JRJoe Rogan44:51

        And I think, like I was saying, this is a doorway for the right to understand.

    20. MZMariana van Zeller44:55

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan44:56

        And I think this is a lot of the case with a lot of these, um, special forces guys, a lot of SEALs and Green Berets. They come back from combat and they're all fucked up and some of their friends take them on ayahuasca journeys.

    22. MZMariana van Zeller45:07

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JRJoe Rogan45:08

        And that helps them a lot. So that's another, like, doorway into the right because people on the right have always thought of psychedelics as being for losers and hippies and people just trying to escape life. But just the sheer horror of combat experience has forced a lot of people to reconsider this position and then they've had so many family members that are veterans and that are, you know, especially, especially guys that are like in the heart of combat.

    24. MZMariana van Zeller45:36

        Mm-hmm.

    25. JRJoe Rogan45:36

        And then they come back and they, they're just fucked up and no one wants to help them. Nobody can just talk you through it.

    26. MZMariana van Zeller45:43

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JRJoe Rogan45:43

        And the one thing that I don't want to say universally, but, uh, a high percentage have had great success with is psychedelics.

    28. MZMariana van Zeller45:52

        Mm-hmm.

    29. JRJoe Rogan45:52

        So I think it's another massive disservice that those are lumped in, in the same illegal category as fentanyl.

    30. MZMariana van Zeller45:59

        As fentanyl. I know.
11. 48:54 – 59:20

    Polarization and political violence: militias, Antifa, and the ‘team sport’ of ideology

    1. MZMariana van Zeller48:54

       Do you know who I really love that you interviewed recently?

    2. JRJoe Rogan48:56

       Who?

    3. MZMariana van Zeller48:57

       James Talarico.

    4. JRJoe Rogan48:57

       He's great. Yeah.

    5. MZMariana van Zeller48:58

       He's fantastic.

    6. JRJoe Rogan48:59

       He's great. He had great insight as to, uh, what's going on in Texas too, where these Christian fundamentalists who are very, very wealthy are trying to turn Texas into a theocracy.

    7. MZMariana van Zeller49:09

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JRJoe Rogan49:09

       Like-

    9. MZMariana van Zeller49:09

       They are fucking crazy.

    10. JRJoe Rogan49:10

        ... these guys sound like full-on nutters.

    11. MZMariana van Zeller49:12

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan49:13

        And this is something that people have to be c- really careful of when you become aligned with one party-

    13. MZMariana van Zeller49:19

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JRJoe Rogan49:19

        ... or another party, right? If you become a- aligned with the left, like Jimmy Kimmel was like ignoring, he was like mocking the-

    15. MZMariana van Zeller49:26

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JRJoe Rogan49:26

        ... president for saying that Antifa, like, "Antifa's not real. Antifa's not ..." That's so crazy to say. I know it's a-

    17. MZMariana van Zeller49:33

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JRJoe Rogan49:33

        ... Democrat talking point c- currently, but it's dangerous for you and for everybody else to say-

    19. MZMariana van Zeller49:38

        Mm-hmm.

    20. JRJoe Rogan49:39

        ... because they are real. They're real and they're anarchists who are committed to overthrowing capitalism.

    21. MZMariana van Zeller49:46

        Yeah, uh-

    22. JRJoe Rogan49:46

        They want to destroy the Western government.

    23. MZMariana van Zeller49:49

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JRJoe Rogan49:50

        Like it's ... And a lot of them are retards. A lot of them are just like goofy kids that got lost in the system-

    25. MZMariana van Zeller49:56

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JRJoe Rogan49:56

        ... and then they found like a gang.

    27. MZMariana van Zeller49:58

        Mm-hmm.

    28. JRJoe Rogan49:58

        Like a lot of gang members, like that's the same kind of thing. They get ... You find a community and all of a sudden these people are yours and they're real and th- And also, they're willing to fight for something and there's like a lot of passion involved in it, so it's kind of exciting. And then you also realize like, yeah, corporate society is fucked up. Yeah, United Healthcare, that is kind of crazy that you spend all that money on healthcare and you get fucking nothing. And then when you do have something they deny your claim. Like what is going on?

    29. MZMariana van Zeller50:24

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan50:25

        And is, is fucked ... And so they don't know where to turn and so they, they get involved with a bunch of people that are doing stupid shit and they light Starbucks on fire.
12. 59:20 – 1:22:19

    Immigration raids, asylum realities, and the economic role of undocumented workers

    1. MZMariana van Zeller59:20

       And I know you don't agree with the immigration raids either, which I've heard you talk about-

    2. JRJoe Rogan59:23

       No.

    3. MZMariana van Zeller59:24

       ... on this podcast, and I-

    4. JRJoe Rogan59:24

       Listen, I think-

    5. MZMariana van Zeller59:25

       ... am so hap- f- happy that you do talk about it because I do think it's an incredibly important issue. I mean, I live in LA, like-

    6. JRJoe Rogan59:30

       It is an important, and it's one of those right/left things too, right? Where people on the right are like, "Fucking turn them all back."

    7. MZMariana van Zeller59:35

       You have no idea.

    8. JRJoe Rogan59:36

       Yeah.

    9. MZMariana van Zeller59:36

       Every time I post it about this and I get so much hate also, like I get immediately people saying horrible things about immigrants and saying horrible things about me. And I, uh, b- by ... I get unfollowed immediately, like people don't like it.

    10. JRJoe Rogan59:47

        The thing is they're like, "Do it the right way." They're like, "Do it the right way." Here's the problem with that. You can't do it the right way. If you live in Mexico or you live in Guatemala and you're walking here and you're getting across the Rio Grande River, and here's the other thing, for the last four years during the Biden administration, it was well-known throughout the world that the borders were wide open. So an estimated, uh, who knows, what is the total number? Put this into Perplexity. That's our sponsor, Perplexity.

    11. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:13

        Ooh.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

        Um, what does it say?

    13. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:15

        Do you wanna ... Do they wanna sponsor my podcast? (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:15

        How many people do they estimate came in-

    15. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:18

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:18

        ... illegally over the past four years during the Biden administration? But it's millions and millions of people, right? So people knew that they can come across. Now they're here because somebody invited them, right? And then they were bused to these places and flown to these places and they were given EBD cards and-

    17. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:35

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

        ... some of them were given cell phones, and now you're gonna arrest them? Now you're gonna like swoop in and handcuff them and, "Fuck," like, "This is crazy. You asked me to be here." They don't know. It's the same goddamn country.

    19. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:46

        (laughs) I, okay, I have spent time on, uh, the trail of immigrants. I was in the Dar- in the southern Darien Gap where a lot of the immigrants were coming, and I spoke to dozens of people who are doing the journey. And, um, maybe I just got lucky or unlucky that I spoke to ... The majority of the people that I spoke to had, you know ... A lot of them were from Haiti, from Venezuela-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:06

        Hmm.

    21. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:06

        ... places that are completely torn up.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:08

        Yes.

    23. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:09

        No economic opportunities whatever-

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

        Right.

    25. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:10

        ... whatsoever. Violence, extreme violence, uh, the- these are the stories that I know are happening. And, and I'll ... I, I have a good friend, his name is Jacob Soboroff, he's a reporter for MSNBC, and he's been covering immigration raids from the beginning. And one of the stories he did, and it w- it's like I, I love that I'm talking about this because this has become really important for me, um, because I'm ... I live in LA and I, I'm affected by this, um, on, on many levels. And because I'm a-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:36

        Also, you have an accent.

    27. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:37

        I have an accent.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:38

        You're from Portugal. (laughs)

    29. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:38

        Exactly. I'm, I am an immigrant, so I know-

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:40

        You might get green-carded.

Episode duration: 2:49:51