Joe Rogan Experience #2395 - Mariana van Zeller

1. 0:00 – 2:43

   Quitting alcohol, stress relief, and Mariana’s emergency appendectomy

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays)

   2. MZMariana van Zeller0:12

      Is there really nothing for you? That glass of wine is so nasty. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Yeah. W- one glass of wine I do not think is bad for you. Uh, it's not-

   4. MZMariana van Zeller0:18

      Yeah, that's all I have.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      ... great for you.

   6. MZMariana van Zeller0:20

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      But a glass of wine relaxes you and there's probably benefit in being relaxed.

   8. MZMariana van Zeller0:24

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:25

      Yeah.

   10. MZMariana van Zeller0:25

       I agree.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       But the problem was I own a nightclub and I'm there all the time.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller0:29

       Yeah, so you're drinking an half in a glass.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       And I'm, you know, out with the fellas and then I'd maybe have a couple glasses of whiskey on a podcast with some guys.

   14. MZMariana van Zeller0:36

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       And then ... When I stopped, I was like, "Oh my God, I feel so much better." (laughs) Like, why was I poisoning myself? (laughs)

   16. MZMariana van Zeller0:42

       Really, you did feel much better?

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Yeah.

   18. MZMariana van Zeller0:43

       Immediately you felt it?

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Yeah, because, uh, when you think about it ... We rolling?

   20. NANarrator0:47

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       So, when I stopped drinking, uh, I was probably having, like, two or three glasses of some kind of alcohol a night, two or three nights a week.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller0:59

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       And then I'd go out to dinner with my wife and have, like, a glass or two of wine. That's a lot of drinks-

   24. MZMariana van Zeller1:04

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       ... over the week. And you don't think it's much 'cause you're not drunk, but the next day I'd be like, ugh, like a little draggy.

   26. MZMariana van Zeller1:11

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       Like when I go to the gym. And that's gone.

   28. MZMariana van Zeller1:15

       That's great.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       Yeah. Just-

   30. MZMariana van Zeller1:16

       I wish I had that ass strength. (laughs)
2. 2:43 – 3:38

   ‘Trafficked’ ends: why the show was canceled and what comes next

   1. MZMariana van Zeller2:43

      Yeah. Don't, don't mean to cause you nightmares, but, uh, I love doing what I do. You know, we've done five seasons of Trafficked. The last season just premiered a couple of months ago, um, it's available now on Hulu, and, uh, unfortunately it's the last season of Trafficked, um-

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:58

      Why is that?

   3. MZMariana van Zeller3:00

      I think a few reasons. I think it's, you know, it's a risky show to put together, right? It's a costly show. It's, um ... Disney decided that NatGeo should be doing more natural history and animal programming and, uh, yeah, I think Trafficked is just a difficult, it is a really challenging show to put together. But I'm incredibly proud of the work we've done and this last season, the fifth season has some of my favorite stories we've done. And, um, I'm now starting a podcast, oh, you know.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:28

      Nice.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller3:29

      I launched it yesterday.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:30

      Congrat- well, about time.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller3:30

      So now I'm your competition. (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:33

      (laughs)

   9. MZMariana van Zeller3:33

      It's about time, yeah. (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:34

       Um, someone will do your show again somewhere else, though.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller3:37

       Yeah, so-

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:37

       It's too good.

3. 3:38 – 11:04

   Launching 'The Hidden Third': black markets, gray markets, and a huge hidden economy

   1. MZMariana van Zeller3:38

      ... this is what I'm hoping is with the podcast, it's on YouTube and I'm growing it into something bigger. So, it starts with interviews, the podcast called The Hidden Third, uh, because an estimated 35% of the global economy are these black and gray markets, which is what I've reported on for-

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:51

      Whoa.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller3:51

      ... 12 or so years.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:51

      Wait a minute. Really?

   5. MZMariana van Zeller3:52

      It's crazy number, right? Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:54

      35% of the economy?

   7. MZMariana van Zeller3:55

      An estimated 35%, which is what economists call The Hidden Third. So, we're not just talking about illegal activities and goods like drugs and scams and whatnot, and guns, we're also talking about un- so the gray, that's the black market, and then there's the gray market which are the, is the irregular, unregulated part of the economy. So, untaxed work, untaxed goods, everything from like, the man selling fruit on the corner, um, you know, to, um, other, other jobs and, and goods that are untaxed. But this actually has an effect on all of us because it's less money that comes in for schools and infrastructure and hospitals and all the stuff we need. And then apart from all that we know which is the black market and how that affects us all, which is, you know, whether you talk about guns or drugs or immigration. I mean, it all has a direct impact on our lives. So, with this podcast, what I really wanted to do is after reporting on these black markets for 20 years, is I wanted to have a place like this where I can have-

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:50

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MZMariana van Zeller4:51

      ... intimate, raw, you know, sometimes difficult conversations with people who have lived or are living on the other side of the law, and, um, who, uh, you know, I wanted to figure out why somebody decides to become a smuggler, a trafficker, a scammer, a, a bookie, a, you know, all these crazy lives that people lead. Uh, see how it affects us all, understand why the, what they do affects us all, and also, I think the most important part for me, which has always been, and I, I've talked about this with you, which is trying to understand if, um, the circumstances were different, if it could have been you and me doing that, you know, geographically-

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:29

       I think under, most certainly-

   11. MZMariana van Zeller5:30

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:31

       ... that that's the case.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller5:31

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:32

       Yeah, most certainly that's the case geographically.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller5:34

       Oh, uh, 100% geographically.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:36

       Yeah.

   17. MZMariana van Zeller5:36

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:36

       If you have no options and you're stuck in a third world-

   19. MZMariana van Zeller5:40

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:40

       ... country, guess what?

   21. MZMariana van Zeller5:41

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:41

       You know, you do what you gotta do.

   23. MZMariana van Zeller5:42

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan5:43

       Yeah.

   25. MZMariana van Zeller5:43

       It was that story that we did in, uh, the same episode you mentioned, the cocaine trafficking, which I will never forget, which was the kid who was carrying in his backpack, right? He was 16, 17-year-old kid carrying cocaine, 20 kilos of cocaine on his back for days on end on the, in the jungles, had seen so many of his friends being killed in front of him by rebel gangs, rival gangs. And, uh, when he, um, you know, when I asked him, "Why are you doing what you do?" He says, "Because I've always wanted to be a dentist. I wanna go to school and be a dentist, but my family's too poor and they can't afford my education, and the only job that I have available for me now is, uh, is doing this cocaine trafficking or, you know, carrying cocaine on my back."And these are stories I hear all the time, so the i- the idea of being able to place ourselves in people's shoes and understand that, yes, even the people that we consider the bad guys could be me and you, as, as you know, has always been very important for me. So the podcast allows me to do that.

   26. JRJoe Rogan6:36

       Well, that's great.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller6:37

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan6:37

       When, when you say that, like, it's one-third, how much of it is stuff that's not dangerous, like selling fruit on the side of the road, and-

   29. MZMariana van Zeller6:45

       So it's-

   30. JRJoe Rogan6:46

       ... untaxed labor?
4. 11:04 – 15:46

   Cartel access and reporting rules: how Sinaloa permissions work

   1. MZMariana van Zeller11:04

      One of the most interesting people we filmed for this last season of Trafficked was a guy that we called El Gringo, so it was the premier e- episode of this season. It was about cartel. It was called Cartel USA. It's about the cartel presence in United States. I've reported extensively on cartels in Mexico, right, and in Colombia and in other parts, but I haven't actually spent a lot of time with a cartel here or seen what kind of influence they have in the US. And, uh, so I had this idea, okay, let's try to figure out how massive their presence is, is here, how they make the money, how do they s- ... They distribute the drugs, and what impact is it having i- in, um, in America. And what I found was, uh, um, a v- several very surprising facts. Um, the story actually starts in Sinaloa 'cause I had to go there to get access to the people in the US. So I had to go to the top bosses to be able to, to get the green light to then film their operations here in the US.

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:57

      What is that like?

   3. MZMariana van Zeller11:59

      Sinaloa, I mean, it's the place in the world that I've reported most, more from. Um, apart from the United States, I've reported more from Sinaloa than anywhere else. Uh, I have good contacts there. I have an incredible local journalist c- called Miguel Angel Vega, who's-... called. He's a, a fixer. He's the guy that any journalist in the world who wants to get access to the cartel will contact him, and then he has his own contacts. He's, uh, just an incredibly brave journalist with his own contacts. And then he, um, basically contacts his people, and then they decide if they want to talk or not. And, uh-

   4. JRJoe Rogan12:33

      Wow.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller12:33

      ... a lot of times they don't, and a lo- sometimes... I've done this so many times that, that by now they trust me. They know that I'm not law enforcement, and so they allow me to film their operations. So, we've, I filmed super meth labs, uh, super labs-

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:47

      Whoa.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller12:47

      ... of meth there. I filmed a fentanyl lab. I filmed a guy cooking fentanyl. We were all full, you know, masked up, and I filmed the whole operation. Um, I mean, uh, I filmed, uh, sicarios. I've, uh, I've... Yeah, I, I filmed more from Sinaloa than (laughs) anywhere else in the world.

   8. JRJoe Rogan13:05

      But it's gotta be very scary to go there and hang out with those people. Is, is, do they put boundaries on-

   9. MZMariana van Zeller13:13

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan13:14

       ... topics?

   11. MZMariana van Zeller13:15

       Uh, um, not on top... Yes, for example, I'm not... Even though I'm in Sinaloa, I'm not supposed to ask which cartel people work for, where it's obvious that when you're in Sinaloa, everyone works for the Sinaloa cartel. Or, I mean, everybody that's involved in the cartel works for the Sinaloa cartel. Um, there are other cartels trying to make, um, uh, headway in the, in that region, but usually it's all Sinaloa. Um, so you're not supposed to ask, uh, who exactly they work for, and, um, any other... some questions about money, for example, how much money they make. People don't like to a- be... ask that. But I always ask (laughs) all those questions anyway. And I, I, you know, you get a sense whether you're pushing it too far or not.

   12. JRJoe Rogan13:52

       Right. Have you ever had a moment when you're doing that where, like, "I think I crossed the line"?

   13. MZMariana van Zeller13:58

       Um, we had a mo- I had a moment where we stayed too long. So, it was a day we were doing a story. It was for season one. It was about guns, and, uh, how... about American guns, the flow of American guns to Mexico.

   14. JRJoe Rogan14:10

       That was when you got the police people-

   15. MZMariana van Zeller14:13

       Yep, that's exactly right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan14:13

       ... that were selling drugs illegally?

   17. MZMariana van Zeller14:15

       Yeah, yeah, guns.

   18. JRJoe Rogan14:15

       So, for people that didn't see that episode, it's quite fascinating. Police in Los Angeles, dirty cops-

   19. MZMariana van Zeller14:21

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan14:21

       ... were loading up their trunks with guns that they've confiscated-

   21. MZMariana van Zeller14:26

       Yep.

   22. JRJoe Rogan14:26

       ... and then selling them across the border in Mexico.

   23. MZMariana van Zeller14:29

       Oh, they were selling it to gang members or affiliate of cartel members in LA, who would then, uh-

   24. JRJoe Rogan14:35

       They would cross the border.

   25. MZMariana van Zeller14:36

       ... ship it. Yeah, they would cross the border-

   26. JRJoe Rogan14:36

       Yeah.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller14:36

       ... and ship it to LA. Yeah, we visit-

   28. JRJoe Rogan14:38

       It's crazy.

   29. MZMariana van Zeller14:39

       It was, it was a scene... Yeah, it started with a scene in... That episode started with a scene in LA where we interviewed a guy who goes by the name of T, and, uh, he had a room packed with rifles. And when I started asking that... him where they were from, he was like, "Oh, this one was confiscated. I... We have an LAPD, um, contact that, you know, sells us a lot of our drugs."

   30. JRJoe Rogan14:58

       I just don't understand what benefit to them.
5. 15:46 – 17:59

   Why criminals talk on camera: ego, impunity, and the need to be understood

   1. MZMariana van Zeller15:46

      I think... For... So, in that case, it went back to my contacts in Sinaloa, and I think it's three reasons why people talk to us. Think the first one is ego. People want to boast. And if you're part of the Sinaloa cartel or even if you're a boss in the Sinaloa cartel, and you're... there's an ongoing war between you, a turf war between you and another gang like the C and, and j- JNG, uh, which is a cartel, uh, Jalisco, um, they're, y- they're fighting for power, right? So, here's a opportunity to show how powerful you were, are. So, it's ego, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:18

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller16:18

      And a lot of these people that talk to me, I don't... You know, very often, or more often than not, it's not the bosses or the kingpins that I'm talking to, right? It's the sicarios. It's the middle and low-level people. It's the traffickers. It's the chemists, the smugglers. It's not the kingpins. And for them, they spend their whole lives doing something that sometimes their own families don't know they're... they do. Like, I remember, uh, an episode we did about counterfeit money, people who make fake US, uh, dollars and euros in Peru, in Lima. And this guy, like shiny eyes, so excited, showing me how he finishes these bills to make it look and feel and smell exactly like $100 bill. And when I asked him... And he's a taxi driver by day, and he does this by night. And, and, uh, and I was asking him, "Uh, so why did you accept talking to us?" He says, "Look, my wife doesn't even know how good I am. I am the best of the best at doing this. Like, nobody in the whole world can make this as well as I do, and I always wanted to be able to talk to somebody and show off how good my skills are."

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:24

      (laughs)

   5. MZMariana van Zeller17:24

      "And you're giving me an opportunity to do this."

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:26

      That's crazy. (laughs)

   7. MZMariana van Zeller17:27

      So, I think ego plays a huge role, and then impunity, like in places like Mexico, so much corruption. Like, what's the downside to talking-

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:34

      Right.

   9. MZMariana van Zeller17:34

      ... to this woman who comes and asks funny questions, right?

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       Right.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller17:38

       And then, and then I think it's the wanting to be understood. I think everybody-

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:42

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller17:42

       ... wants to be understood, and they know they're considered the bad guys. They know that, uh, you know, um, you know, there's so much stigma around what they do. And I tell everybody, "I'm here to try to understand what you do. I'm not here to judge you, because I think it's much more important to understand why you do what you do."

6. 17:59 – 31:11

   Counterfeit cash: ‘the finisher’ craft, distribution into the U.S., and why banks catch it

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:59

      The guy who makes counterfeit bills, what's his process?

   2. MZMariana van Zeller18:02

      Oh, it's freaking fascinating.

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:03

      'Cause does he replicate a, a dollar bill with all, like, the-

   4. MZMariana van Zeller18:07

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:07

      ... little things inside of it?

   6. MZMariana van Zeller18:09

      Everything. It was incredible. So, there's different... There's the graphics person. There's the printer, and then, then he is... He does the finishing job. He's the finisher.And, uh, he said he was the best finisher in the job and I said he's... I, I started calling him Cristiano Ronaldo, the Portuguese football player, 'cause he's the finisher in soccer. (laughs) So I called him Ronaldo. "Okay, you're Ronaldo." And he uses... he uses a, a, um, it's kinda like a porridge that I used to eat when I was a kid in, in Portugal. It's called like a... it's a type of like a Cerelac. You don't, you guys don't have it here, but it's like a, a meal, um, what do you call that? Like cornmeal.

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:42

      Oatmeal? Cornmeal?

   8. MZMariana van Zeller18:42

      Like a cornmeal. Um, and he uses that, and I saw him using it. Uh, um, it's not Cerelac actually, it's Maizena, which is another brand. (laughs) But it... he uses this sort of cornmeal to finish these bills to make it the consistency when you touch it, feel exactly like the real stuff. And-

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:59

      Is it made with the same paper?

   10. MZMariana van Zeller19:01

       Uh, no, it's a different paper. The paper is the hardest part to get, 'cause the paper you can only get, um, in the US Federal Reserves or wherever the paper comes from, but it's not-

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:11

       But that seems like an easy thing to duplicate.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller19:13

       So, I know, but that's... Yeah. It's-

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:13

       Paper.

   14. MZMariana van Zeller19:14

       ... not very hard, and particularly if you put the, you know, all the little creases and curves and what... Yes, makes it-

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:21

       What about those little things that you can only see with like a flashlight and stuff like that?

   16. MZMariana van Zeller19:24

       They, they have ways around that too.

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:26

       Wow.

   18. MZMariana van Zeller19:26

       It was incredible. We brought some home, haven't used it, it's at my office. (laughs) But it is... I mean, it can fool-

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:32

       Isn't it illegal to possess that stuff?

   20. MZMariana van Zeller19:34

       Okay, so we actually didn't bring the actual... We, we brought the cut-outs so I... we wouldn't be able to use it, but it's like... it's in the background of my podcast, so... (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:41

       Whoa.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller19:42

       It's, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:42

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   24. MZMariana van Zeller20:53

       (laughs) You can see the cut-out, and it's really... it's phenomenal. It's crazy.

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:58

       What... How many bills that are counterfeit make their way into our currency?

   26. MZMariana van Zeller21:03

       Oh, this-

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:03

       Is this it right here?

   28. MZMariana van Zeller21:04

       Yeah. This is it. This is the finisher. Yeah. Here he is. And you see, he's teaching, he's showing me.

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:10

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller21:10

       And there's a glue too. Yeah.
7. 31:11 – 39:19

   Drug policy crossroads: Portugal vs Oregon, rehab outcomes, and a ‘rehab scam’ industry

   1. JRJoe Rogan31:11

      Is there anyone that has a realistic solution to how to at least mitigate some of that?

   2. MZMariana van Zeller31:17

      We've talked about this. Uh, y- uh, we, we had a, a little bit of a debate about this last time, because I keep giving the example of Portugal, and you said... Which has decriminalized drugs, right?

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:27

      Yeah.

   4. MZMariana van Zeller31:27

      And I know Portugal is not the United States. We're 10 million people, we're a small country, but i- whatever... We w- i- it worked there. Um-

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:36

      Yeah.

   6. MZMariana van Zeller31:37

      Drug abuse went down.

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:38

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MZMariana van Zeller31:38

      Incarceration went down. H- HIV went down-

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:41

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MZMariana van Zeller31:41

       ... levels of HIV went down. So it worked there. They tried it in Oregon, right? It went terribly.

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:46

       Yeah, but Oregon's a bad place to try it.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller31:49

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan31:49

       Because Oregon was already so lawless that going to Oregon, it, like, allowed people to, like, ramp it up. And so, because you could get anything and everything was decriminalized, they just went ham.

   14. MZMariana van Zeller32:00

       Yeah. And also, they didn't have the system in place for people who actually wanted rehab.

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:05

       Right.

   16. MZMariana van Zeller32:05

       And, and so when you don't, what are people gonna do? They're gonna go back to-

   17. JRJoe Rogan32:08

       But even then-

   18. MZMariana van Zeller32:09

       ... to drugs.

   19. JRJoe Rogan32:09

       ... rehab is very ineffective.

   20. MZMariana van Zeller32:12

       Y-

   21. JRJoe Rogan32:12

       Like, percentage wise.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller32:14

       It is. That's, was another episode we did this season that you should watch. It's about, it's called The Rehab Scam. It's The Great American Rehab Scam.

   23. JRJoe Rogan32:20

       Yes.

   24. MZMariana van Zeller32:20

       And it's about how in California... We did, we filmed in Arizona and California. In California alone, we got a, an insurance, the head of the insurance, um, investigations in California, an insurance fraud investigator in California told us that in his estimates, that he said, they're probably very low, 10% of the thousands of rehab facilities out there are probably a fraud and, and a scam, in which they get-

   25. JRJoe Rogan32:46

       10%?

   26. MZMariana van Zeller32:47

       10%, which is a crazy number. But he thinks it's a low number, that it's probably much higher than that. So we, what we, our story was all about body brokering and rehab scams. And it was-

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:57

       Bo- body brokering?

   28. MZMariana van Zeller32:58

       Body brokering, yeah. It's, uh-

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:59

       What is that?

   30. MZMariana van Zeller33:00

       It's an i- it's a term applied, that applies to, uh, rehab scams. So rehab scams is basically the, the, uh, buying and selling of addicts (laughs) in this billion dollar market, right? So it's, um, um, these f- they create these fake, uh, rehab centers that bill insurance for treatments that they are not actually giving people. Um, so, uh, for example, it, it's a huge problem in Arizona. That's why we started... And in California, but we started in Arizona. Native Americans have really easy access to, um, l- health insurance through the, the Indian American Health Plan that they created. And it started as a good thing, because there's... It, it was difficult, a lot of people lived in reservations far away. A lot of people, you know, because of generational trauma and alcohol abuse and drug abuse, there's a real need, uh, for health insurance and for them to have access to health insurance. So you have these wh- huge communities that when COVID happened, uh, the state made it even easier for them to get the help that they needed through health insurance. But all these bad actors realized, "Oh, this is great. We're just gonna build these fake rehab centers, go around in white vans..." Literally, there's, like, thousands of people still missing in Arizona. Most of them, uh, Native Americans. And they go out in white vans to these reservations in Arizona and New Mexico, and they bring people, people who, you know, um, have problems with drug and alcohol, and they bring people to these s- centers. And then they start billing insurance, they get you on an insurance plan, and they start billing insurance, crazy amounts of money. Like, we spoke... We were investigating this one facility that they were making 800 and something, um, million doll- sorry, 800 and something thousand, uh, $870,000 a week, a week, from, you know, dozens of people that they were housing.
8. 39:19 – 42:41

   Tranq dope in Philadelphia: fentanyl + xylazine, ‘zombie’ effects, and horrific wounds

   1. MZMariana van Zeller39:19

      One of the other stories we did this season was about tranq dope. Do you know what tranq dope is?

   2. JRJoe Rogan39:23

      Tranq dope?

   3. MZMariana van Zeller39:24

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan39:24

      No.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller39:25

      It's, fentanyl now is being mixed with a thing called xylazine, which is an animal tranquilizer.

   6. JRJoe Rogan39:30

      Oh, fun.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller39:30

      Ah, so fun. Uh, it's horrible. Um, and 90% of the fentanyl that is now being, that's coming out of Philadelphia, you know Kensington? Have you s- you've seen the zombies-

   8. JRJoe Rogan39:41

      Oh, I have seen tranq where those people-

   9. MZMariana van Zeller39:43

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan39:43

       ... like, fall over?

   11. MZMariana van Zeller39:43

       Yeah. Like-

   12. JRJoe Rogan39:44

       Yeah.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller39:44

       ... like zombies they're walking down-

   14. JRJoe Rogan39:45

       They're like they're doing crazy yoga.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller39:47

       Yeah. In Kensington it's the saddest thing. So we spent time in Kensington filming.

   16. JRJoe Rogan39:51

       What is it about that stu- is it the tranquilizer that makes them just fall over like that standing up?

   17. MZMariana van Zeller39:56

       Yeah, yeah, it's part of it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan39:57

       Oh.

   19. MZMariana van Zeller39:58

       So it's, it's a really interesting, you know, as we all know, it all started with OxyContin and then it went to heroin. And heroin was a great high for people who are addicted to opiates because it was a powerful high and it would ke- keep you high for a long time. And then came fentanyl, and fentanyl gives you an even more powerful high but it's fast acting so you get out of it fast. So somebody realized if we mix tranq, um, animal tranquilizer with this-

   20. JRJoe Rogan40:24

       Mm.

   21. MZMariana van Zeller40:25

       ... you will, you will still have the big high but it will extend the time that you have that high. And what is happening to, you know, thousands of people across the US is that they are taking these drugs, getting the high that they want-

   22. JRJoe Rogan40:40

       They're just doing it like this, so is it IV?

   23. MZMariana van Zeller40:42

       Oh, my God, it's horrible. No, they're shooting it up.

   24. JRJoe Rogan40:44

       They're shooting it-

   25. MZMariana van Zeller40:44

       And this is what we shot in Kensington.

   26. JRJoe Rogan40:45

       ... intravenously. Yeah.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller40:46

       Yeah, they shoot it up, and what we shot in Kensington-

   28. JRJoe Rogan40:48

       Oh, this is it? And where is this?

   29. NANarrator40:51

       This is Philly.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller40:52

       Philly, outside of Philly. It's in Kensington.
9. 42:41 – 59:20

   Psychedelics as treatment: ibogaine, PTSD, and why Schedule I comparisons don’t make sense

   1. JRJoe Rogan42:41

      Yeah. Are you aware of Ibogaine?

   2. MZMariana van Zeller42:43

      Yes. I, I listened-

   3. JRJoe Rogan42:44

      Yeah.

   4. MZMariana van Zeller42:44

      ... to the interview you did with, uh-

   5. JRJoe Rogan42:46

      With Rick Perry?

   6. MZMariana van Zeller42:47

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan42:47

      Governor, former governor of Texas.

   8. MZMariana van Zeller42:48

      Yeah, yeah. That was fascinating.

   9. JRJoe Rogan42:49

      Yeah. That is insanely effective and, um, readily available in Mexico. And now, uh, fortunately because of former governor Rick Perry, it's available in Texas. So they're doing it now in Texas with, uh, soldiers with PTSD. People coming back from the war with great efficacy, and people that, that have also been hooked on substances because of some of things that they've seen. So I think that's a great doorway into the right. Because the right has always viewed these things, like particularly a psychedelic, which Ibogaine is, I guess. It, it's category one, right? It's Schedule I. I don't know. I think it's Schedule I. Is Ibogaine Schedule I? Um, but it's certainly illegal in America and it's thought of as ... I don't know how you could ever consider it recreational because it's a, apparently a very brutal experience and very introspective. And most people say, "I did not enjoy that at all. I hated it." Uh, I had Dakota Meyer on the podcast and he talked about it and he's like, "I wanted to punch the guy who gave it to me."

   10. MZMariana van Zeller43:52

       Wow. Wow.

   11. JRJoe Rogan43:52

       He's like, "It's fucking terrible." For like one whole day you're going ever, over every horrible aspect of your life and it finds, like, the pathways in your brain that created behavior afterwards. And it like gives you this like insanely introspective slideshow of your life and sort of lays out, this is why you're an addict. This is why you're a gambling addict. This is why you're addicted to ruining your life. Like, these are the things that happened to you when you were young and these are things that you did when you were an adult that you had shame over and all these different thing. These are the things that you've seen that are horrific, that have scarred you. And it has like an 80% effective rate for people getting off drugs-

   12. MZMariana van Zeller44:33

       Oh, wow. That's really high.

   13. JRJoe Rogan44:33

       ... with one session and it's in the 90s with two sessions.

   14. MZMariana van Zeller44:37

       Wow. That is crazy high.

   15. JRJoe Rogan44:39

       Yeah. Exactly.

   16. MZMariana van Zeller44:40

       And it's illegal here, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan44:42

       Exactly. Well, it is now legal in Texas. Well, I don't know what the regulations are or how they're doing it, but at least they're, they're giving it to some people in Texas.

   18. MZMariana van Zeller44:50

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan44:51

       And I think, like I was saying, this is a doorway for the right to understand.

   20. MZMariana van Zeller44:55

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan44:56

       And I think this is a lot of the case with a lot of these, um, special forces guys, a lot of SEALs and Green Berets. They come back from combat and they're all fucked up and some of their friends take them on ayahuasca journeys.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller45:07

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan45:08

       And that helps them a lot. So that's another, like, doorway into the right because people on the right have always thought of psychedelics as being for losers and hippies and people just trying to escape life. But just the sheer horror of combat experience has forced a lot of people to reconsider this position and then they've had so many family members that are veterans and that are, you know, especially, especially guys that are like in the heart of combat.

   24. MZMariana van Zeller45:36

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan45:36

       And then they come back and they, they're just fucked up and no one wants to help them. Nobody can just talk you through it.

   26. MZMariana van Zeller45:43

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan45:43

       And the one thing that I don't want to say universally, but, uh, a high percentage have had great success with is psychedelics.

   28. MZMariana van Zeller45:52

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan45:52

       So I think it's another massive disservice that those are lumped in, in the same illegal category as fentanyl.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller45:59

       As fentanyl. I know.
10. 59:20 – 1:10:59

    Immigration enforcement and asylum: human costs, legal realities, and political incentives

    1. MZMariana van Zeller59:20

       And I know you don't agree with the immigration raids either, which I've heard you talk about-

    2. JRJoe Rogan59:23

       No.

    3. MZMariana van Zeller59:24

       ... on this podcast, and I-

    4. JRJoe Rogan59:24

       Listen, I think-

    5. MZMariana van Zeller59:25

       ... am so hap- f- happy that you do talk about it because I do think it's an incredibly important issue. I mean, I live in LA, like-

    6. JRJoe Rogan59:30

       It is an important, and it's one of those right/left things too, right? Where people on the right are like, "Fucking turn them all back."

    7. MZMariana van Zeller59:35

       You have no idea.

    8. JRJoe Rogan59:36

       Yeah.

    9. MZMariana van Zeller59:36

       Every time I post it about this and I get so much hate also, like I get immediately people saying horrible things about immigrants and saying horrible things about me. And I, uh, b- by ... I get unfollowed immediately, like people don't like it.

    10. JRJoe Rogan59:47

        The thing is they're like, "Do it the right way." They're like, "Do it the right way." Here's the problem with that. You can't do it the right way. If you live in Mexico or you live in Guatemala and you're walking here and you're getting across the Rio Grande River, and here's the other thing, for the last four years during the Biden administration, it was well-known throughout the world that the borders were wide open. So an estimated, uh, who knows, what is the total number? Put this into Perplexity. That's our sponsor, Perplexity.

    11. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:13

        Ooh.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

        Um, what does it say?

    13. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:15

        Do you wanna ... Do they wanna sponsor my podcast? (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:15

        How many people do they estimate came in-

    15. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:18

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:18

        ... illegally over the past four years during the Biden administration? But it's millions and millions of people, right? So people knew that they can come across. Now they're here because somebody invited them, right? And then they were bused to these places and flown to these places and they were given EBD cards and-

    17. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:35

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

        ... some of them were given cell phones, and now you're gonna arrest them? Now you're gonna like swoop in and handcuff them and, "Fuck," like, "This is crazy. You asked me to be here." They don't know. It's the same goddamn country.

    19. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:46

        (laughs) I, okay, I have spent time on, uh, the trail of immigrants. I was in the Dar- in the southern Darien Gap where a lot of the immigrants were coming, and I spoke to dozens of people who are doing the journey. And, um, maybe I just got lucky or unlucky that I spoke to ... The majority of the people that I spoke to had, you know ... A lot of them were from Haiti, from Venezuela-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:06

        Hmm.

    21. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:06

        ... places that are completely torn up.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:08

        Yes.

    23. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:09

        No economic opportunities whatever-

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

        Right.

    25. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:10

        ... whatsoever. Violence, extreme violence, uh, the- these are the stories that I know are happening. And, and I'll ... I, I have a good friend, his name is Jacob Soboroff, he's a reporter for MSNBC, and he's been covering immigration raids from the beginning. And one of the stories he did, and it w- it's like I, I love that I'm talking about this because this has become really important for me, um, because I'm ... I live in LA and I, I'm affected by this, um, on, on many levels. And because I'm a-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:36

        Also, you have an accent.

    27. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:37

        I have an accent.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:38

        You're from Portugal. (laughs)

    29. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:38

        Exactly. I'm, I am an immigrant, so I know-

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:40

        You might get green-carded.

Episode duration: 2:49:51