The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,144 words- 0:00 – 4:05
Daryl Davis’ approach to deradicalizing extremists through friendship
- JSJeff Schoep
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- JRJoe Rogan
The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Okay. Gentlemen. Good to see you, brother.
- DDDaryl Davis
Hey, good to see you again too.
- JRJoe Rogan
How you been? You good?
- DDDaryl Davis
I've been hanging, man. How about yourself?
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm good. I'm good. And Jeff, nice to meet you as well.
- JSJeff Schoep
Nice to meet you, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is, uh, another one of your very unusual friendships, Daryl. (laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs) I'm trying to make it the norm, you understand? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I mean, you're, you're a real example of what can be done bo- just by being a nice person.
- DDDaryl Davis
Hey, thank you, man, for, for the mention with, um, um, Bono.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, my pleasure.
- DDDaryl Davis
I appreciate that.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure. Um, so for people that don't know, uh, Daryl has ... I mean, how many people now have you converted?
- DDDaryl Davis
I, I, I stopped counting after 200 and something.
- JRJoe Rogan
Daryl, his journey initially started, you're a musician, he met a Klansman at a bar.
- DDDaryl Davis
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he couldn't believe what a nice guy you were, you struck up a friendship with this guy-
- DDDaryl Davis
And I played like Jerry Lee Lewis and he didn't understand that.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That too, the talent. And then, um, this guy quit the Klan because of you, and handed you his outfit and said like, "I'm done." Um-
- DDDaryl Davis
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Obviously I'm wrong, all this is wrong." And you then went on to start meeting a lot of other Klan members and a lot of other, you know, different neo-Nazi factions, and you got a lot of these people to quit these hateful organizations.
- DDDaryl Davis
Well, I got them to, to rethink-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DDDaryl Davis
... uh, because I gave them s- things, perspectives they had not considered before, or not been exposed to, and that caused them to quit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm, yes, right.
- DDDaryl Davis
You know, it wasn't like I was, I was, I wasn't trying to get them out, I was just trying to sh- show them a different path.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. But it's just, your patience and your ability to communicate to people is just very admirable, 'cause that's a very tough path. You know, you, for people just listening, you're a Black man, you're meeting a Klansman and you strike up a friendship. You know, you wind up having dinner at his house, hanging out with him, and he's like, "You're actually a really nice guy."
- 4:05 – 5:09
How culture and regional norms shape trust, identity, and misunderstanding
- DDDaryl Davis
Well, I mean, l- you know, let's, let's, let's take racism out of the picture for a second. Let's, let's look at our own country. You know, um, as a musician, right, I do a lot ... I've, I've played in all 50 states. Okay? You know, and when I s- you know, go to N- I have a booking in say, let's say New York City, you know, everything's got to, you know, got to be on paper, got to sign this contract and they want things, like, yesterday. You know, it's very fast paced, et cetera.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DDDaryl Davis
Um, so, you know, you sign a contract and people adhere to it, whatever. My experience in the South, you know, say Mississippi, Georgia, something like that, they don't care about contracts even though I, I get one. You know, a handshake is good enough. You know, they, they, they feel that their word is their bond.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DDDaryl Davis
And so, you know, you, you present them with a contract, it's like, "What, you don't trust me?" You know, that kind of thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right, right.
- DDDaryl Davis
And in the Midwest, which is where I'm from originally, uh, you know, it takes a while for people to get to know you. They want, they wanna get to know you before they commit. They're very close to the vest. Out in California, it's like, "I'll get around to it maybe next week, maybe the week after." You know? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right, right. Now, Jeff, how did you guys meet?
- 5:09 – 8:36
Jeff Schoep’s origin story: fascination with Nazis and the path into the NSM
- JSJeff Schoep
So, um, I was contacted by a filmmaker and they said, uh, "Would you come down and, and film," um, "as part of this program?" So I didn't know I was meeting Daryl Davis. In the movement, we knew who Daryl Davis was 'cause he was pulling people out of this movement.
- JRJoe Rogan
Explain the movement.
- JSJeff Schoep
The-
- JRJoe Rogan
What movement you were a part of.
- JSJeff Schoep
I was a part of the National Socialist Movement. Um, I was in-
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is Nazis.
- JSJeff Schoep
Nazis.
- JRJoe Rogan
For people that don't ... It sounds like socialists, like, oh, college campuses, you know, you want Marxism, free healthcare for all. No. (laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
Different kind of socialism. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah, yeah, neo-Nazism, yeah. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
And how did you get indoctrinated into that?
- JSJeff Schoep
So I was a part of that movement for 27 years.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JSJeff Schoep
25-
- JRJoe Rogan
How old were you? How old are you?
- JSJeff Schoep
So I'm 51.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, you look young. I thought you were about 40. I was like, "What the fuck?"
- JSJeff Schoep
Well, that's, that's okay. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
No, you look good.
- JSJeff Schoep
Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, which is crazy for a Nazi. You would think it's a lot of stress.
- JSJeff Schoep
You'd think ... It is a lot of stress. It is-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
Hate is a lot of stress.
- DDDaryl Davis
He lost his hair.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah, look, I lost all my hair.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I lost mine too and I'm not a Nazi. (laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- 8:36 – 11:56
Finding and joining a pre-internet Nazi organization (and the strange contradictions)
- JSJeff Schoep
But at that point, I wasn't. So I was searching it out, and by the time I was, uh, um, 18, then I'm joining.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, you didn't have Kanye songs back then.
- JSJeff Schoep
Right. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) That song is so crazy. Like, someone needs to pull Kanye aside and give him a hug.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That song's crazy. So, you ... What was the first organization that you like, officially became a part of, and what, what did they do?
- JSJeff Schoep
So, the National Socialist Movement was the group that I sought out, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
How did you find them, first of all? 'Cause this, this is-
- JSJeff Schoep
It was, it was all before the internet, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. This is a really kind of strange story. So I'm looking for books, I'm trying to read everything I can on it, I'm trying to find these places. Did you have other hobbies or just being a Nazi?
- JSJeff Schoep
No, I had ... I w- I had other-
- JRJoe Rogan
Were you like into baseball or anything like that?
- JSJeff Schoep
I was a l- long haired rock and roll singer.
- JRJoe Rogan
No fucking way.
- JSJeff Schoep
Right? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You were a rock and roll Nazi? That's nuts.
- JSJeff Schoep
Right? (laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That seems like so ... That's like jumbo shrimp.
- JSJeff Schoep
Right. (laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) That's so counterintuitive.
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
How are you a rock and roll Nazi?
- JSJeff Schoep
The-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's ... Rock and roll is all about like, freedom and creativity and expression.
- JSJeff Schoep
I, I know, there's a lot of counterintuitive stuff in my life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah. Sad, but true.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it just shows you, people are really complicated.
- 11:56 – 15:04
American Nazism history, symbols, and the Madison Square Garden rally
- JRJoe Rogan
I wanna point this out because this is a really crazy fact that's gonna blow a lot of people's minds. Before World War II, there was a Nazi rally in Madison Square Garden.
- DDDaryl Davis
Yeah, the American Bund, the German American Bund.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
It ...... is nuts. When you see it in Madison Square Garden and you see, you know, the swastika, the whole deal and you're like... This is before anybody had connected this with evil.
- DDDaryl Davis
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, back then, that was an ancient Hindu symbol.
- DDDaryl Davis
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, there's a Hindu temple near my old house-
- DDDaryl Davis
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... in California and it has swastikas all over it. And they ha-... 'Cause the, the temple's from the 1800s and they have to tell people, "Hey," like, there's a sign, "Hey, it's not that kinda swastika." Right?
- DDDaryl Davis
Right. Back in 2018-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DDDaryl Davis
... the State Department sent me over to India to speak and lecture. And you see these, these, these, uh, symbols-
- JRJoe Rogan
All over the place.
- DDDaryl Davis
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- DDDaryl Davis
Because it's a, it's a peace, good luck kinda thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was also a symbol for Shotokan karate.
- DDDaryl Davis
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
When I was a kid, when we would meet, uh, these Shotokan karate s- uh, tournaments. We'd go to tournaments and meet these, uh, practitioners. Some of them have swastika patches. This is in the '80s.
- DDDaryl Davis
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is nuts.
- DDDaryl Davis
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Jamie, show that photo again.
- JSJeff Schoep
Uh, there's a video.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay. Show the video. Um, the v-... It's really crazy, 'cause you, you see this enormous crowd and this was before people had associated Nazis with a bad thing. You know, back then, it was just a, this national socialist party. They thought, "Okay, we're, we're good." By the way, that's how everybody used to salute the American flag. Did you know that?
- DDDaryl Davis
Yes.
- JSJeff Schoep
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
The... Which is really crazy. The Nazi salute now that Elon got in trouble for. (laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- 15:04 – 19:44
Indoctrination mechanics: books, propaganda, meetings, uniforms, and public rallies
- JRJoe Rogan
So when you first get brought in, you're 18, like, what... Do they give you tasks to do? Do they teach you about things? Like, how does it go?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah, so a lot of the propagandizing and stuff is books that you're reading and studying and stuff. But the group had, like, meetings. You would have literature distributions. It would do, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like Mein Kampf? Like, what kind of-
- JSJeff Schoep
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Reading that?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah. I had already read that by... At 16 I already read that. But the group is, you know, recommending books like that or Henry Ford's International Jew, other, other, um, other books like that as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was that Henry Ford the, the car guy?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yes.
- DDDaryl Davis
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
He wrote a book called International Jew?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yes.
- DDDaryl Davis
You know he was very, very anti-Semitic and he, he, he supported the Nazis.
- JSJeff Schoep
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- DDDaryl Davis
Yeah.
- JSJeff Schoep
Henry Ford had a picture of Hitler on his desk and Hitler had a picture of Henry Ford on his desk.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa!
- DDDaryl Davis
You'd be surprised, man, about-
- JRJoe Rogan
I drove here in a Ford.
- DDDaryl Davis
... about some of the people. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Fuck. (laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs) You know, Walt Disney? Same thing. IBM, at the time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- DDDaryl Davis
Same thing. Yeah.
- JSJeff Schoep
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, I knew about Walt Disney. I did h-... I had heard about Walt Disney and I heard something about the roots of IBM as well. Well, I mean, so many German automobile manufacturers, right? Like Audi, Volkswagen, you know. All started off as Nazis. Even Mercedes, right? Weren't... Was it a Nazi-owned company?
- DDDaryl Davis
Uh, I don't know if it was own-... If they were owned by the Nazis, but they were definitely a German company. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was one of the craziest things about the Kanye thing. 'Cause Kanye, um, lost his contract with Adidas 'cause he had said anti-Semitic things. Adidas was started by the Nazis. Wow. Which is just like wow.
- DDDaryl Davis
But, but that goes to show people, people can advance and change.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- 19:44 – 24:18
Doxing, isolation, and the spiral: how backlash can entrench extremism
- JSJeff Schoep
... based out of there, so. But then, um, early on, I was doxed on a radio show. I was going under a fake name at, like, 19 years old and still had the long hair. I got it tucked up in a hat, and I went on a radio show, and I was doxed early on. And that kind of changed the trajectory.
- JRJoe Rogan
What'd you go on the radio show for?
- JSJeff Schoep
With the movement, with the National Socialist-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh. And then you got doxed as a band member?
- JSJeff Schoep
Well, no. I, I was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, doxed, like, your home address and all that stuff?
- JSJeff Schoep
My parents. Um ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JSJeff Schoep
So I, I was going ... I was going under the name Jeff Stephens because I didn't wanted to s- ... I wanted to separate my music career from-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JSJeff Schoep
... from the movement, and also protect my family because I knew this was a, a movement that people didn't like and that could cause ... put them in harm's way. And, um, so, um, I'm on the air, and somehow the, the host says, you know, "Your name is not ..." I'm spewing anti-Semitic drivel, um, which was pretty typical of, of how I behaved at the time. And, um, the woman that was, uh, running the show, she goes, "Your name is not Jeff Stephens. It's Jeff Schoep, S-C-H-O-E-P, and your mother lives in this town."
- DDDaryl Davis
Oh.
- JSJeff Schoep
"She's an attorney. She works here. Your father works in manufacturing. He works here."
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
"And we're gonna call your mother in the, uh, next commercial break." And my world just fell apart. And I'm ... You know, I look back now, um, and I try not to blame anybody else 'cause these were my choices, my poor choices, so I take responsibility for that. But, um, at 19 years old, that changed my trajectory. I felt like my whole world just collapsed at that point.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you think, like, "Wow, all these people are mad at me. Maybe I'm wrong"?
- JSJeff Schoep
No. You know, you would think with this kind of stuff going on in your life, you know, you would, uh, reflect on that, but I doubled down. And that's pretty common in, in that, uh, in that world. When someone is faced with that kind of pressure, is they double down. They become more entrenched. So it's like every lash of the proverbial whip. Anybody that tried to stop me from being involved in it or tried to dissuade me, it just made me more, um, dedicated to it and more intense in that belief system. So I'm, I'm thinking my ... "I'm gonna ruin my band's career now," so I quit the band, I shaved my head, and, um, then I put all that energy y- that I had put into music into the movement. I felt like I had no choice. What that, what that did, um, that doxing, it affected my mother's career. So, I mean, this was a ... Hate has consequences, and hate was some- ... It was, like, a downward spiral for, for me, and this is very common for anybody that's involved in it. It separates you from your family, from those you love. It, uh, isolates you. And, um, what it did to my mother's career is ... As I mentioned, she was a lawyer. She wanted to be a judge, so she had ran to be a judge. She was elected to be a judge. And, um, in the state of Minnesota, there's a ... At the time, anyways, this was back in the '90s, and, um, there was a formality. And this is the way my mother explained to me at the time. She goes, says, "The governor called me," and she said, "Mrs. Schoep, uh, your son's a leader in the Nazi Party. Your father fought in the German Army during the war. I do not feel you are fit to be a judge in this state."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JSJeff Schoep
So that, that was just devastate- ... Uh, that's something ... I carry that guilt and shame to this day for, for doing that. But at the time, I was like, "Okay, the system is after my family." That's how I, I felt.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JSJeff Schoep
And it just made me double down and become more, uh, radical.
- JRJoe Rogan
Were you ... Did you have a job at the time?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What'd you do for a job?
- JSJeff Schoep
I was doing all kinds of jobs, you know, working in factories, and Pizza Hut, and, you know, just any- anywhere I could. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
But your main focus was on the movement?
- JSJeff Schoep
Well, my main focus was on music until all that happened.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JSJeff Schoep
And then, uh ... And then it became the movement, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so, like, what are the thi- different things that you guys did?
- 24:18 – 36:16
First meeting in Alabama for 'Accidental Courtesy' and the moment of cognitive dissonance
- JSJeff Schoep
Around the time when I met Daryl Davis. Around-
- JRJoe Rogan
Were you already having second thoughts about the direction of your life?
- JSJeff Schoep
... that's- that's a tough one to answer. I was- I was starting to see the humanity in others, like, after I move- I moved to Detroit in, uh, December of '07. And Detroit's a- a majority, uh, minority city, or a non- uh, people of different races, so I'm having more interactions with people of other races. By 2016, you know, I'd met Daryl Davis, and, um, like I said, I didn't know I was meeting Daryl Davis, but, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
How'd you guys meet?
- JSJeff Schoep
It was, uh, for a film, for Daryl's film, Accidental Courtesy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, right.
- JSJeff Schoep
So they had reached out and they explained the show, and I said, "Okay," you know, because any opportunity to, uh, spread the propaganda of the movement, I'm gonna do it, unless it was, like, Jerry Springer or something. So it sounded legit, I agreed to it, didn't know I was meeting Daryl. I still would have done it, but I would have probably prepared to debate this guy-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JSJeff Schoep
... because I knew who he was, I knew he was pulling people out of the movement, and- and, um, so this was at a place called, uh, Chris' Hot Dogs in Alabama, where Hank Williams had written the song, it was, "Hey, hey good-looking you out there," right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. About a waitress.
- JSJeff Schoep
Right. And, um, my girl and I were sitting outside, and Daryl steps out of a vehicle and I was thinking, uh, you know, "I recognize this guy." He comes up, shakes my hand, we shake hands, and I'm th- he says, "Hi, I'm Daryl Davis. You must be Jeff Schoep." And I'm thinking, "Where do I know that name from? Where do I know his face?" It didn't quite register, 'cause I'm just thinking about, uh, you know, this debate that we're gonna get into. And, um, then after we sat down, it clicked. I was like, "Oh, this is the guy that gets people out of these organizations." So at this point, I'm the head of the National Socialist Movement, and Daryl and I are getting along great, we're talking about music, we're talking about all these kinda things, and it clicks in my head, "Oh, wow, I'm getting along too well with this guy. He's the enemy." You know? Or so-called enemy. You know, he's on the other side. So I better step it up here. So I pound my fist on the table and I said, "You know, Daryl, I'll fight to the last bullet for my people."
- DDDaryl Davis
Yeah. And how- how would ... Um, p- prior- prior to- to us getting together, the producer and director of the, uh, documentary, it's called Accidental Courtesy, they asked me, you know, they- they followed me around the country. I was conducting interviews with, uh, KKK members, Black Lives Matter, and different, you know, people. And they said, uh, "Do you know, uh, Jeff Schoep?" And I said, "I know who he is. I've never met him." "Uh, would you be open to talking with him and interviewing him?" I said, "Sure." So they contacted him. And, uh, then they let me know, okay, you know, he- uh, he- we were down in Alabama at the time, you know, "He- he's gonna come down to Alabama, you know, you can interview him tomorrow." And we went to this place called Chris', uh, Hot Dog Stand, or Chris' Grill, whatever, where Hank Williams made Famous. And we're go- we're gonna do this interview in there. So they said, uh, they got me a rental car, put me in the hotel, and said, you know, "We're- we're gonna get everything set up, we'll ge- we'll have Jeff here, and we're gonna film you when you first come in and meet Jeff. We- we wanna catch that on camera, then you'll sit down across from him in the booth and interview him." I said, "Okay, fine." So I go to the hotel, wait for their call. Uh, they call and say, "Okay, we're ready." So I get in this rental car and I drive to- to the, uh, grill. And when I pull up, I see who looks like Jeff sitting on this bench out front with this girl. So I'm thinking, "Well that can't be him 'cause he's- he's supposed to be inside sitting in the booth." So I just sat in the vehicle, you know, looking at him, tr- trying to figure this out, maybe he came out for a smoke or something like that. I'm watching him, he's not going inside. So I got out, and wh- when I got out and started walking towards him, I- I think, you know, "That is the dude." I'd never met him, but I knew what he looked like. I said, you know, "I wonder why he's out here." So I went over, I said, "Hey, um, are you Jeff Schoep?" He goes, "Yeah." I said, "I'm Daryl Davis." Shook his hand. He introduced me to his- to his lady friend. And I said, I s- "I thought you were supposed to be inside?" He goes, "Well, I was inside, just came out," or whatever. So we walk in. Of course, they didn't get to capture the moment that we met, so they're like all freaked out and stuff. And, uh, we sat down in the booth, and I started- I started interviewing him, and as he pointed out, you know, uh, he was getting along too well with me (laughs) .
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
You know, just shitting- chit-chatting, talking about music, and this, that, and the other. And he's saying, you know, um, you know, uh, he was a musician, I said, "I'm a musician." And I said, "Well what kind of music, you know, do- do you like? What kind of music do you play?" "Well I play rock." And I said, "Well, you know rock was invented by- by Black musicians." "Oh, let's not go there, you know, you know, Elvis Presley invented rock."
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
And no, Elvis did not invent rock, right? (laughs) I said, "Chuck Berry invented rock," right? And he goes, "Okay, well, you know, you probably know more about music than I do." You know, so, but what- what difference does it make, you know, you know, what- what color the musician is? I said, "Well, it doesn't make any difference to me, but- but obviously it makes a difference to you because, you know, in- in our history books and we talk about Ben Franklin. Who- who cares what color Ben Franklin is? You know, if he invented electricity, he invented electricity, right?" And I- he goes, "Well yeah, well, um, I know- I know about the guy who invented peanut butter." (laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
And I said, "Okay." (laughs) I'm serious. And he- I said, "Okay, what's his name?" He thought about it, he goes, "Carver, Carver." I said, "What's his first name?" He goes, "George Washington Carver." I said, "Okay, very good." I shook his hand, right? And so then, um, uh, what did he say? He, um, you know, he's- he runs the, uh, NSM, National Socialist Movement, and the whole white supremacy ideology is called The Movement, right? So anyway, I said, "Well ..." Uh, he goes, "You know ..." I- I said, "It's a racist movement." He said, "No, it's- it's like a white civil rights movement for white people." Uh, he goes, "You know, you- you got the NAACP." And I said, "Yes." I said, "But there are white members of the NAACP. Can I join the NSM?" He goes, "No." (laughs) And, you know, I said, "Well, why not?" "Well, then it's a racist movement." You know, and then we got into ... And he goes, you know, "I will fight to the last bullet for my people." (laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
I'm like, "Whoa." You know, he just kind of like, you know, flipped out here. I said, "Okay." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you do that because you were realizing that you were getting a little too friendly with him?
- JSJeff Schoep
Y- oh yeah. Yes. (laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) That's so funny, like, "I'm keeping my ideology no matter what."
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs) Yes, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's funny. "You're not gonna trick me by me being a cool guy."
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs) We laugh about it now, but at the time, I was pretty stressed out.
- 36:16 – 44:58
Leaving the movement: a long de-rad process, public denouncement, and fallout
- JRJoe Rogan
And so when exactly was that shift for you?
- JSJeff Schoep
So I broke free from the movement in early... in March of '19, um, but I was going through this process for several years. So, um, typically you want somebody in, like, the work that we do, we want someone to disengage from the movement and then we work on the de-radicalization part. My journey was backwards so I'm de-radicalizing while I'm still involved. Now, if somebody would've told me that while I was involved, those would've been fighting words, you know, but it was basically, like...... the mind wasn't catching up with what was going on. So, that's when I was starting those last years when I was involved. I'm saying, "This is a white civil rights group, it's not a hate group." You know, and from the outside looking in you go, "Man, this guy's insane. Of course it's a hate group." You know? Um, and I see, I see that now obviously. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Tell me about your girlfriends who told you it was a cult.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah. So, um, when I was involved, every girl that I was seeing, and I, I was, uh, seeing quite a few different women, just about every one were... That if they would come and check out the, the movement, they would say, "Whoa, this is like a cult and you're, like, a cult leader." And I'm thinking in my head, "What is wrong with these choices I'm making in women? What is with these poor choices?"
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
You know what I mean? Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JSJeff Schoep
... that's a serious co- uh, cognitive dissonance. But that's, that's the, that's the thought that, that goes through your head, is like, "Th- it's, it's not me." It's-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, was it initially meeting Daryl that started this journey for you?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yes. It was one of the major, major first seeds. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
And so... But you guys hadn't seen each other in quite a while. And then on your own, you just started exploring these ideas and changing your perspective.
- JSJeff Schoep
Y- well that, and then not long after meeting Daryl, I met a, a Muslim filmmaker by the name of Deeyah Khan and, uh, in her film, White Right Meeting the Enemy. And I'd gotten to know Deeyah quite well over the course of that filming, and, uh, there was a number of people that left the, the NSM from interacting with Deeyah. And, um, she has a very similar approach to how Daryl Davis approaches things. It's about listening, it's about being curious, it's about asking questions, and sharing different perspectives. And, um, that, that curiosity and that, that, uh, si- sincerity, it can help, uh, re- restructure the way someone thinks and the way they see th- see people. So, like, Deeyah says to me... And this is actually in the film, White Right Meeting the Enemy, um, um, you can s- see the change. Like, I showed a clip a lot of times at my talks and I'll tell the audience, I'll say, "Take a look at my eyes in that clip because you can see it." The cameraman caught it, zoomed in on my eyes. She's saying, "You know, the ideology that you..." Instead of telling me that I was wrong, she showed me. She says, "The ideology that you stand for, the things that you believe in, they made me feel less than, ugly, not worthy. As a child growing up, that's how I felt. That's how your ideology made me feel." And no one aside from Daryl Davis had ever approached me with anything like that. I was told I was wrong, but that human connection... When you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process, and I'd lost my humanity a long time ago. And what Daryl and Deeyah did is they cracked that door open, that window to compassion, and I could see their humanity. Daryl did something very similar, he told me about how racism and hate affected him as a child growing up. That hurt. That hurt, you know? I mean, I'm not gonna say it at the time when I'm still in the movement-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JSJeff Schoep
... but on the inside, it really hurt, it bothered me. It's like, this is not this noble grand cause that I believed it was if it's causing that kind of pain and suffering to other people.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, what were the steps that you had to take before you were ready to leave the movement?
- JSJeff Schoep
I hated to try everything, and I, I, I beat myself up over that, uh, a lot. But I, I kept saying, "It's a white civil rights group." I'm telling every press outlet I'm sitting down with when they're in, uh, "Don't call us a Nazi group. It's a white civil rights organization." Of course, most of them wouldn't pu- publish that 'cause it is what it is. But I'm going through these different changes, I'm having rules put into the organization where, um, the last couple years they changed from the swastika in the public view to using a, an old Runic symbol, the odin rune. Um, today they switched back, uh, they, they use the swastika again. But I was doing things like that to try to change the image of the group. As my own beliefs were shifting, I was trying to shift that into the party and, and eventually I was like... 'Cause, uh, as a man, I thought, "I'm gonna fix this. I gotta fix this, what, this mistake that I made, this, this, uh, terrible, uh, um, movement, I've gotta fix it." And there's no fixing it. All I was doing was putting lipstick on a pig, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JSJeff Schoep
Dressing up the Nazi party, trying to make it look pretty. It still is what it is. So eventually, um, after 2019 rolls around, I was like, "I, I ch- I just have to, uh, I have to get away from this. This is not right. I can't face this."
- JRJoe Rogan
And what was the response within the movement when you left?
- JSJeff Schoep
N- not so good.
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat)
- JSJeff Schoep
Not so good. Um, you can leave these organizations, um... And it depends, uh, different groups operate different ways. Uh, the one I was involved in was above ground, so it's, uh, uh, mostly legal. Um, you've got underground groups that operate a little bit differently, they'll come after you and things like that. Um, you can leave, but if you walk away and you speak out against it, you're deemed like a traitor, basically, to that cause. So, I knew that was going to happen when I started speaking out, so I didn't speak out immediately. But, um, by the end of, uh, l- uh, late 2019, it was August or September of '19, I started speaking out and denounced the movement, denounced racism, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
So this is before you did that event with Daryl?
- JSJeff Schoep
Oh, yeah. Yeah. By that time, I was already out.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so, how were you denouncing the movement, and where were you doing this?
- JSJeff Schoep
I did a press release, and a website, and, and, uh, made it public because, uh, that's... That would be seen and, and understood.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, were you concerned at all about retaliation? About you being attacked or them coming for you?
- JSJeff Schoep
You know, there's always those concerns, but I, I don't tr- I don't try to dwell on those, uh, those things. You know, I was in a high-stress, dangerous environment for a lot of years, so this is just another kind of a high-stress environment. But I don't want people to thi- you know, be afraid to leave. There's, there's no reason to be afraid to leave, you know. I mean, obviously you gotta be a- aware of your surroundings and wise to it. But, um, I've... You know, I'm, I'm always prepared.
- JRJoe Rogan
And when you were leaving and yo- you know, when you were on your way out and changing your ideas about the movement and then leaving, did anybody come with you?
- JSJeff Schoep
A lot of people came with me. Um, the National Socialist Movement was the largest neo-Nazi organization of its kind when I left.... uh, today it's, it's quite small. It's barely hanging on, so, um, a lot of people-
- 44:58 – 1:30:57
Reintegration challenges: jobs, stigma, and Daryl’s ‘aftercare’ support model
- DDDaryl Davis
And another thing, you know, people like, like Jeff and people of that, uh, status, that, you know, the high status, it takes a, a ... While, while they may change themselves, it takes them a while to figure out if they can leave, because that's their job. In Jeff's case, he, he ... That was his job for 25 out of the 27 years he was a member to lead that organization and build it and recruit and bring people in. He brought in numerous people. So number one, how do you go back to those people and say, "I was wrong." You know? You got all this power. Everybody looks up to you. You're, you're their leader, right? Their cult leader (laughs) as your girlfriends will tell you. So ... (laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
So ...
- JSJeff Schoep
Thanks, Daryl (laughs) .
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
But, so y- you know, that weighs on you. And then, uh, you know, that is your full-time job while you're in there. You know, the money you make is from selling Nazi merchandise, T-shirts, you know, armbands, you know, whatever else you have, medallions, et cetera. Um, so now you are leaving. How are you gonna pay your bills? How are you gonna support your family? Uh, uh, all that kind of thing. You know, you need a job. Well, you're not trained in anything else, number one. And then what are you gonna put on your resume when you go to apply for a job? Uh, "I was a Nazi leader for 20 ... for the last 25 years."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right.
- DDDaryl Davis
So, you know, all of that weighs on you. And so you need some kind of outside support, you know, and which is a lot of stuff, you know, you know, that I provide. Because, you know, you, you talk to somebody and you give them another perspective and, and they leave, you can't just leave them swinging in the wind and you go on about your business.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DDDaryl Davis
Because, you know, they, they have to, to, to, to, to belong to something or, or enter into society. And they can't go back. They've already betrayed, you know, their quote unquote "family." So they're gonna find something else to get into unless, you know, you provide that kind of support.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what support do you provide them?
- DDDaryl Davis
The shoulder to talk to. Uh, connect them. I brought him to New York, had him speak to, to crowds. And an interesting thing happened. I want, I want you to tell the story about, uh, Duke.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DDDaryl Davis
Um, you know, show him to, to other people. Let them know, "Hey, Daryl Davis is not an exception." You know? Uh, because, you know, what, what I need to do, I find oftentimes is, when I become friends with these people and they ... the mentality becomes, you know, you know, "Daryl's okay for a Black guy, so are those other Black people or all those other Jewish people." That, you know, that kind of thing. So when, when I feel I can trust that individual, right, you know, that they're not gonna bring harm to ... I'm, I'm not, I'm not concerned about myself, but I know that they're not gonna bring harm to friends of mine or other people, then I will invite them, you know, to my home, invite some of my Jewish friends, some of my other Black friends, some of my white friends who look just like them but don't agree with them. So that way they can see, "I'm not the exception. Maybe they are the exception, because now they're being exposed to people who think the same way I do."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Now, y- y- were you doing that for money? Were you w- running the movement, was that your job job? Or did you have another job as well?
- JSJeff Schoep
Um, for a lot of years, I was, uh, basically running the record label of the movement. And that was, that was my job as well, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, the movement has a record label?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yes.
- DDDaryl Davis
White Power Rock.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, Christ.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah, so that's, that's ... That was my job. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Uh, so you gotta find another job too.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you have to f- find a job where they're willing to hire a Nazi.
- JSJeff Schoep
Former Nazi.
- JRJoe Rogan
Former.
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
Episode duration: 2:17:17
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Transcript of episode HwpYMYnAsz4
