The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,144 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- JSJeff Schoep
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- JRJoe Rogan
The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Okay. Gentlemen. Good to see you, brother.
- DDDaryl Davis
Hey, good to see you again too.
- JRJoe Rogan
How you been? You good?
- DDDaryl Davis
I've been hanging, man. How about yourself?
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm good. I'm good. And Jeff, nice to meet you as well.
- JSJeff Schoep
Nice to meet you, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is, uh, another one of your very unusual friendships, Daryl. (laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs) I'm trying to make it the norm, you understand? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I mean, you're, you're a real example of what can be done bo- just by being a nice person.
- DDDaryl Davis
Hey, thank you, man, for, for the mention with, um, um, Bono.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, my pleasure.
- DDDaryl Davis
I appreciate that.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure. Um, so for people that don't know, uh, Daryl has ... I mean, how many people now have you converted?
- DDDaryl Davis
I, I, I stopped counting after 200 and something.
- JRJoe Rogan
Daryl, his journey initially started, you're a musician, he met a Klansman at a bar.
- DDDaryl Davis
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he couldn't believe what a nice guy you were, you struck up a friendship with this guy-
- DDDaryl Davis
And I played like Jerry Lee Lewis and he didn't understand that.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That too, the talent. And then, um, this guy quit the Klan because of you, and handed you his outfit and said like, "I'm done." Um-
- DDDaryl Davis
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Obviously I'm wrong, all this is wrong." And you then went on to start meeting a lot of other Klan members and a lot of other, you know, different neo-Nazi factions, and you got a lot of these people to quit these hateful organizations.
- DDDaryl Davis
Well, I got them to, to rethink-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DDDaryl Davis
... uh, because I gave them s- things, perspectives they had not considered before, or not been exposed to, and that caused them to quit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm, yes, right.
- DDDaryl Davis
You know, it wasn't like I was, I was, I wasn't trying to get them out, I was just trying to sh- show them a different path.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. But it's just, your patience and your ability to communicate to people is just very admirable, 'cause that's a very tough path. You know, you, for people just listening, you're a Black man, you're meeting a Klansman and you strike up a friendship. You know, you wind up having dinner at his house, hanging out with him, and he's like, "You're actually a really nice guy."
- 15:00 – 30:00
I was, yeah. (laughs)…
- JRJoe Rogan
- JSJeff Schoep
I was, yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
So when you first get brought in, you're 18, like, what... Do they give you tasks to do? Do they teach you about things? Like, how does it go?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah, so a lot of the propagandizing and stuff is books that you're reading and studying and stuff. But the group had, like, meetings. You would have literature distributions. It would do, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like Mein Kampf? Like, what kind of-
- JSJeff Schoep
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Reading that?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah. I had already read that by... At 16 I already read that. But the group is, you know, recommending books like that or Henry Ford's International Jew, other, other, um, other books like that as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was that Henry Ford the, the car guy?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yes.
- DDDaryl Davis
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
He wrote a book called International Jew?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yes.
- DDDaryl Davis
You know he was very, very anti-Semitic and he, he, he supported the Nazis.
- JSJeff Schoep
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- DDDaryl Davis
Yeah.
- JSJeff Schoep
Henry Ford had a picture of Hitler on his desk and Hitler had a picture of Henry Ford on his desk.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa!
- DDDaryl Davis
You'd be surprised, man, about-
- JRJoe Rogan
I drove here in a Ford.
- DDDaryl Davis
... about some of the people. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Fuck. (laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs) You know, Walt Disney? Same thing. IBM, at the time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- DDDaryl Davis
Same thing. Yeah.
- JSJeff Schoep
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, I knew about Walt Disney. I did h-... I had heard about Walt Disney and I heard something about the roots of IBM as well. Well, I mean, so many German automobile manufacturers, right? Like Audi, Volkswagen, you know. All started off as Nazis. Even Mercedes, right? Weren't... Was it a Nazi-owned company?
- 30:00 – 45:00
(laughs) …
- DDDaryl Davis
movement for white people." Uh, he goes, "You know, you- you got the NAACP." And I said, "Yes." I said, "But there are white members of the NAACP. Can I join the NSM?" He goes, "No." (laughs) And, you know, I said, "Well, why not?" "Well, then it's a racist movement." You know, and then we got into ... And he goes, you know, "I will fight to the last bullet for my people." (laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
I'm like, "Whoa." You know, he just kind of like, you know, flipped out here. I said, "Okay." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you do that because you were realizing that you were getting a little too friendly with him?
- JSJeff Schoep
Y- oh yeah. Yes. (laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) That's so funny, like, "I'm keeping my ideology no matter what."
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs) Yes, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's funny. "You're not gonna trick me by me being a cool guy."
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs) We laugh about it now, but at the time, I was pretty stressed out.
- JRJoe Rogan
I would imagine.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah, 'cause, uh, I realized it. But you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
So what year was this?
- DDDaryl Davis
2016.
- JRJoe Rogan
... 16. Daryl, what was the first year you came on the podcast?
- DDDaryl Davis
Oh, gosh. Um...
- JRJoe Rogan
It was kinda around then, right?
- DDDaryl Davis
Yeah, '15 or '16.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Um, so how many other different things had you done where y- he, he had known about you? Had you done, like-
- DDDaryl Davis
Him?
- JRJoe Rogan
... a lot of different interviews, a lot of different-
- DDDaryl Davis
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... back then?
- DDDaryl Davis
Oh, yeah, I've been d- you know, doing a, a lot of interviews, uh, magazines and newspapers...
- JRJoe Rogan
And so you guys were just very aware of anybody who was, like, fucking up the cause...
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... with their awesome personality.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
(laughs) …
- DDDaryl Davis
people like, like Jeff and people of that, uh, status, that, you know, the high status, it takes a, a ... While, while they may change themselves, it takes them a while to figure out if they can leave, because that's their job. In Jeff's case, he, he ... That was his job for 25 out of the 27 years he was a member to lead that organization and build it and recruit and bring people in. He brought in numerous people. So number one, how do you go back to those people and say, "I was wrong." You know? You got all this power. Everybody looks up to you. You're, you're their leader, right? Their cult leader (laughs) as your girlfriends will tell you. So ... (laughs)
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
So ...
- JSJeff Schoep
Thanks, Daryl (laughs) .
- DDDaryl Davis
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DDDaryl Davis
But, so y- you know, that weighs on you. And then, uh, you know, that is your full-time job while you're in there. You know, the money you make is from selling Nazi merchandise, T-shirts, you know, armbands, you know, whatever else you have, medallions, et cetera. Um, so now you are leaving. How are you gonna pay your bills? How are you gonna support your family? Uh, uh, all that kind of thing. You know, you need a job. Well, you're not trained in anything else, number one. And then what are you gonna put on your resume when you go to apply for a job? Uh, "I was a Nazi leader for 20 ... for the last 25 years."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right.
- DDDaryl Davis
So, you know, all of that weighs on you. And so you need some kind of outside support, you know, and which is a lot of stuff, you know, you know, that I provide. Because, you know, you, you talk to somebody and you give them another perspective and, and they leave, you can't just leave them swinging in the wind and you go on about your business.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DDDaryl Davis
Because, you know, they, they have to, to, to, to, to belong to something or, or enter into society. And they can't go back. They've already betrayed, you know, their quote unquote "family." So they're gonna find something else to get into unless, you know, you provide that kind of support.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what support do you provide them?
- DDDaryl Davis
The shoulder to talk to. Uh, connect them. I brought him to New York, had him speak to, to crowds. And an interesting thing happened. I want, I want you to tell the story about, uh, Duke.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DDDaryl Davis
Um, you know, show him to, to other people. Let them know, "Hey, Daryl Davis is not an exception." You know? Uh, because, you know, what, what I need to do, I find oftentimes is, when I become friends with these people and they ... the mentality becomes, you know, you know, "Daryl's okay for a Black guy, so are those other Black people or all those other Jewish people." That, you know, that kind of thing. So when, when I feel I can trust that individual, right, you know, that they're not gonna bring harm to ... I'm, I'm not, I'm not concerned about myself, but I know that they're not gonna bring harm to friends of mine or other people, then I will invite them, you know, to my home, invite some of my Jewish friends, some of my other Black friends, some of my white friends who look just like them but don't agree with them. So that way they can see, "I'm not the exception. Maybe they are the exception, because now they're being exposed to people who think the same way I do."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Now, y- y- were you doing that for money? Were you w- running the movement, was that your job job? Or did you have another job as well?
- JSJeff Schoep
Um, for a lot of years, I was, uh, basically running the record label of the movement. And that was, that was my job as well, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, the movement has a record label?
- JSJeff Schoep
Yes.
- DDDaryl Davis
White Power Rock.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, Christ.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah, so that's, that's ... That was my job. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Uh, so you gotta find another job too.
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you have to f- find a job where they're willing to hire a Nazi.
- JSJeff Schoep
Former Nazi.
- JRJoe Rogan
Former.
- JSJeff Schoep
(laughs)
- 1:00:00 – 1:12:54
Hmm. …
- DDDaryl Davis
you know, we're overseas. So my first intro- introduction to school was abroad. I did kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in different schools in different countries. The in between grades I would do back home here, right? My, my classmates abroad, now we're talking about the 1960s, my classmates abroad were from all over the world, because anybody who had an embassy stationed where we had our American embassy, all of their kids went to the same school. So this little girl sitting at this little desk here might have been from Czechoslovakia, that kid from Nigeria, that kid from Italy, that kid from Japan. You know? If you opened the door to my classroom and looked in, you would say, "Oh, you know, this is a United Nations of little children." That's exactly what it was. That became my baseline for what school was supposed to be. But every time I'd come home, I would either be in all Black schools or Black and white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated. And just because desegregation was passed four years before I was born in 1954 by the Supreme Court, schools did not integrate overnight. It took years and years. And even in some places today, in 2025, this country is still struggling with integration, right? So-... that became my norm, you know, this multicultural thing. I didn't know tribes. Everybody was part of my tribe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- DDDaryl Davis
And that's why I didn't understand racism because I, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DDDaryl Davis
... now, if I, if I had grown up here my whole life and, and my first experience with somebody who did not look like me was having bottles and rocks thrown at me at the age of 10 i- in a parade, um, maybe I wouldn't be doing this work today. Maybe I would be, "Whoa. I'm, I'm gonna stay away from those k- from those color of people."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DDDaryl Davis
You know, that kinda thing. So I didn't know tribalization simply because of my, um, my growing up experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Very unique experience.
- DDDaryl Davis
E- exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DDDaryl Davis
And most Americans didn't have that. Now today, you know, and back then, uh, you know, you buy your kids ... you're talking about 1960s ... you buy your kids dolls. Um, I had GI Joe dolls, right? Uh, you know, I, I don't have any siblings, but, you know, my friends, you know, they have Barbie dolls. And back then, all the GI Joes were white. All the Barbie dolls were white. So Black kids had to play with little white dolls. You know, there was nothing that looked like them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mmm.
- DDDaryl Davis
Today you have, you know, all kinds of color of dolls and, and nationalities and ethnicities, uh, which broadens the scope of these children so when they see the real deal walking down the street, you know, "Well, that's my favorite doll so, you know, I'm okay with that person," rather than, you know, you, you reinforce that tribalism by buying your kids the dolls that look like you and your parents.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm. Yeah. Well, that makes sense and it also sets you up to be uniquely qualified to do what you do, you know, like as a person who did grow up around so many different people.
- DDDaryl Davis
So I try to share that, I guess, you know, vicariously-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DDDaryl Davis
... with people.
- JRJoe Rogan
Jeff, did you grow up around a- I mean, other than when you moved to Detroit, were you around mostly white people? Like ...
- JSJeff Schoep
Yeah. So grow- where I grew up is, like, in the middle of a cornfield basically. I grew up in a little town. It was barely 1,000 people, um, all white, uh, basically. Um, the only interactions you had with other races was typically in the summertime like when, uh, farm workers would come up from Mexico and, and things like that, and a lot of times people just didn't talk to them. So I didn't really have in- any, hardly any interactions with people of other races. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
So where did the negative ideas about other races come from?
- JSJeff Schoep
The movement. It came from the movement.
- JRJoe Rogan
All from the movement.
- JSJeff Schoep
From the movement.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not from personal experience at all.
- JSJeff Schoep
Nope. Nope. I did not have bad per- personal experiences. In fact, even to this day most of the bad personal experience I had with other people, I mean, I've had pe- assassination attempts, I've got scars from attacks, all white people.
- JRJoe Rogan
And this assassination-
- JSJeff Schoep
Isn't that ironic?
- JRJoe Rogan
... attempts, is this post leaving or during-
- JSJeff Schoep
During.
- JRJoe Rogan
During.
Episode duration: 2:17:17
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