Joe Rogan Experience #2417 - Ben van Kerkwyk

1. 0:00 – 1:57

   Labyrinth hype: the buried “Tic Tac” metal object and why it matters

   1. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:00

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:06

      (drums) Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Ben. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Good to see you again, man. Last- so last time you were on, we barely scratched the surface of all the things that we wanted to talk about, so immediately we were like, "We gotta do another one quick." Because you wanna talk to them about the Sphinx.

   5. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:22

      The Sphinx, yes. Yeah, we were on, we got into the- well, the Labyrinth was kind of the big deal.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:26

      Labyrinth is nuts. I still haven't been able to get over it. The 40 meter metallic shape-

   7. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:31

      Tic Tac shape?

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:32

      ... Tic Tac shape thing-

   9. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:33

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       ... that's in the ground. Like, what is that?

   11. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:35

       Well, I hope we'll find out. I mean-

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       Tr-

   13. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:38

       ... I, I don't know. I, it's, it's the wheels do turn a little slowly, but I'm, the, the point of that was to try and drive some awareness. Maybe we'll get some sort of angel investor in there to go and look at it and solve the problem-

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Yeah.

   15. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:48

       ... do something, 'cause-

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       Someone needs to talk to Elon.

   17. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:50

       Yeah, maybe.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       I'm, I'm not the guy.

   19. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:51

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       (laughs) I talk to him-

   21. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:53

       Damn it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:53

       ... too much as it is.

   23. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:54

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       He's too busy. But someone who can annoy him-

   25. BKBen van Kerkwyk0:56

       He's solving other problems. Yeah, he's- he's got some-

   26. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       Yeah. Someone, or maybe Bezos would like to be the first guy to get in there. They, someone has to get in there. You have to figure out what that thing is. That's crazy.

   27. BKBen van Kerkwyk1:04

       Who's-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       This might be one of the biggest mysteries in the entire human civilization record.

   29. BKBen van Kerkwyk1:09

       It could be. Yeah, who's the guy-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       It could be.
2. 1:57 – 5:16

   What the Lost Labyrinth is: ancient accounts, rediscovery, and modern scans

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:57

      We should probably explain to people that didn't listen to the last podcast.

   2. BKBen van Kerkwyk2:00

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:00

      Just a real quick synopsis of what this is.

   4. BKBen van Kerkwyk2:01

      Real quick synopsis. So the Labyrinth, it's, it's, uh, we're talking about the Great Lost Labyrinth of ancient Egypt, which was described by figures like Herodotus, Diodorus Siculus, Pliny the Elder, figures from antiquity, these authors, and, and they've described it as being greater in magnificence than the pyramids. Like, they, they had these just mind-bending descriptions of what this site was, like multiple levels, 3,000 rooms. You would get lost in it. It had giant courtyards with pillars all made from ... I mean, one guy, I think it was Strabo described the roof as being a single piece of stone, which I don't think it was, but it, it's describing those perfect joins that you see in the, the real megalithic work from Egypt. So, it's this giant mystery. We know it's there and it was kind of lost to time until, uh, we found it again, basically. It was discovered. It was always known about because there were clues about its location. It was always theorized to have been at this place called Hawara, uh, which is near the Faiyum in, in Egypt. And, you know, Petrie went there and dug it up, uh, Flinders Petrie in the late 1800s, early 1900s, and he found massive stone slabs and he thought he was standing on its foundation, like it's been quarried and taken away. And ins- rather than that, that he was ... it turns out he was most likely standing on the roof of like the top layer, it was like 10 meters below the ground.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:15

      That is so nuts.

   6. BKBen van Kerkwyk3:16

      He never got quite in. But then in, uh, the Matarah expedition happened I think in the, the mid like 2017 or 2015. There was a, an expedition run by a game- uh, a guy named Louis de Cordier in partnership with the, with the Egyptian government. They used ground penetrating radar, sonic techniques, like well-established subsurface techniques, and they found it. They found these massive cyclopean walls that were meters thick. It was a Labyrinthian structure. It's, it's well-verified, it's below the water table level of what's on that site now, so you have water table sort of five meters below the surface, the Labyrinth starts at nine, 10 meters. And that was ... There's some controvers- uh, some controversy around that report because it was buried, like so he found it, they, they never published the report. It was squashed by Zahi Hawass, this is according to Louis de Cordier, uh, he threatened, uh, him and his team with national security sanctions if they talked about it. They, it, it just was put away, he waited a few years, he finally released the report and was like, "Holy, holy shit, we found the Labyrinth." And then this then spurred some other companies to, to use some of these new space-based scanning techniques. There's been at least two that have been done, very different techniques, but they found the same thing. They found that there is in fact a massive underground structure at this place called Hawara. It goes much deeper than what you could reach with those ground penetrating radar and those established techniques. 60, 70 meters below the ground, there's multiple levels, three or four levels. And they correlate, like so one scans a statistical model and another one is a, that uses high frequency photography along with, uh, I think seismic data, very similar to the doppler tomography work that's being done by the Italians at, uh, places like, like the Giza Plateau now. And they both correlate, yes, there's a big structure, but one of the most interesting facts that came out of this scan was it seems like in this massive central atrium that's, that's this one big giant open room, it's 40, 50 meters long, that s- connects to all of these levels. There seems to be this unidentified metallic object that's freestanding in this room, it's about 40 meters long and it seems to be Tic Tac shaped is what i- is what this report said, so.

3. 5:16 – 8:28

   UFO jokes to serious implications: tourism, incentives, and ‘all bets are off’ archaeology

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:16

      It's a fucking UFO.

   2. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:17

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:18

      It's a UFO in Egypt.

   4. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:20

      The aliens did it. I, yeah, I don't know. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:21

      I mean, could you-

   6. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:22

      It's tantalizing.

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:23

      ... could you imagine, can you imagine if they get in there and they really do find a recovered spacecraft-... yeah, then what- what do we do then?

   8. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:33

      (sighs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:33

      Because if this is-

   10. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:34

       Do we find out?

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:34

       ... a public excavate- that's the question.

   12. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:36

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:36

       We'd have to bring in the SEALs. We- we need to, like-

   14. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:39

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:39

       ... lock that place down. Maybe we need to occupy Egypt-

   16. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:42

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:42

       ... just to figure out how to fucking get this done.

   18. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:44

       Occupy Hawara. Let's, let's, let's just-

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:46

       (laughs)

   20. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:47

       Just Hawara.

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:47

       You'd have to occupy the whole country. You'd have to-

   22. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:49

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:49

       ... bribe them, something, give them money. Whatever you gotta do. Like, if I- if I was the president, that would be like my number one priority.

   24. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:55

       I mean-

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:56

       You know?

   26. BKBen van Kerkwyk5:56

       Yeah. It's- it's- it has the poten- I think, uh, uh, there's been a little bit more of this from Egypt, they've- they've- uh, the, uh, I guess the establishment there, they seem a little more willing to engage in some of the- the mystery. I genuinely do think that- that's- that discoveries like these can- can only help and boost tourism, like it's gonna-

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:12

       Only help.

   28. BKBen van Kerkwyk6:12

       All they want is to bring people in.

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:14

       It will bring way more. Could you imagine if they actually figured out a way to drain all the water out of the Labyrinth? They give you a tour and show you the spaceship.

   30. BKBen van Kerkwyk6:21

       (laughs) Yeah.
4. 8:28 – 12:02

   Tunnels under the Sphinx: Arab historians, Edgar Cayce, and the Hall of Records hunt

   1. BKBen van Kerkwyk8:28

      The- it's- it's a house of cards, right? It's- it- there- I think there are- there are elements of that that are in- that- that are obvi- I mean, not obvious, but they're- people can explore them and it starts to knock down the house of cards. It's how people end up with this, just looking at the contradictions in ancient Egypt, but there- there are other examples of what I would say, like these things like the Maddahar expedition that have been discovered, but then sort of covered up and kept secret?

   2. JRJoe Rogan8:53

      Right.

   3. BKBen van Kerkwyk8:53

      And- and a lot of them have to do with you have the same tie-in with these ancient stories, and- and- and accounts from history, not just from the- the- the Roman and Greek, uh, his- uh, historians, but also the Arab historians, like Al-Masudi, for example, the Herodotus of the Arabs, they called him. You know, he tal- he talked about tales of these tunnels and chambers beneath the Sphinx, that there were, uh, you know, there were rooms beneath the Sphinx that then led out to like three different tunnels. You have, uh, a number of other Arab historians from as far back as like 600 AD that- that have stories of- of getting into the pyramids and then getting lost in tunnels and chambers beneath them.

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:29

      Geez.

   5. BKBen van Kerkwyk9:30

      And... Yeah, I mean, there's- there's a lot of these cra- you hear these stories of like the Hall of Records, right? The people, um, like Edgar Cayce, the- the- the American psychic in the 1940s who, um, you know, he would- he- Edg- have you heard of Edgar Cayce before?

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:44

      Yes.

   7. BKBen van Kerkwyk9:44

      You must have. Yeah. He's- So he- he would fall into these trance-like states, and he'd have these visions. He's called like the- the Sleeping Prophet, they would call him, or he's like one of the America's psychic. And he wasn't just about things about around Egypt. He did- he did prophesize and- and talk about locations for three Halls of Records, which were these Atlantean, um, caches of information, like a pre-Diluvian civilization. He did call it Atlantis. But he would also have these predictions about the stock market, and- and a lot of people made a lot of money based on his predictions, and that led to the...

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:15

      He was really good at it?

   9. BKBen van Kerkwyk10:16

      Oh, yeah. Yeah. So apparently, when... I mean, whether he was lying, I don't know. I mean, I- I- I have- I-

   10. JRJoe Rogan10:21

       'Cause that's always the question when it comes to like psychics.

   11. BKBen van Kerkwyk10:23

       Psychics?

   12. JRJoe Rogan10:24

       If you're a real psychic, why wouldn't you make all the money in the world-

   13. BKBen van Kerkwyk10:26

       Well...

   14. JRJoe Rogan10:27

       ... from the stock market?

   15. BKBen van Kerkwyk10:28

       It did happen. There- there was a lot of people who made a lot of money, and- and he did evidently, too, as well, and so that led to the formation of something called the Edgar Cayce Foundation or the ARE, the Association for Research and Enlightenment is the name of them. They're still going strong today. And they've- they've been looking to try and find his Halls of Records, and they've been trying to verify the- Cayce's predictions. One in particular that they have been chasing down is- is the- the famous Hall of Records, which is- which he said was beneath the paws of the Sphinx. So there's not... You know, these- the stories of this Hall of Records and these rooms beneath the Sphinx go back thousands of years. Like, I mean, uh, just- just- not just the Arabs, but also Herodotus and these other guys also talked about, uh, that whole area, the Sphinx and everything else, being vastly more ancient, even than the pyramids. Um, but there was some work done (laughs) that- that- then- that happened in recent times, like in the 1990s. Well, it's been- there's been a search going on since the early '70s that the ARE has been involved in. And a lot of this is quite secretive, none of it- a lot of this has never really come to light. But there's some- until very recently, in fact, there's been some footage that came up that showed that there are, in fact, tunnels beneath the Sphinx that may well have been explored. We're not quite sure. But it's an interesting story, so...... uh, it does involve Mark Lehner and Zahi Hawass who are the, th- you know, authoritative figures, uh, involved in Egypt, um-

   16. JRJoe Rogan11:50

       Are they bottle-necking this as well?

   17. BKBen van Kerkwyk11:51

       I... Well-

   18. JRJoe Rogan11:52

       Do I have to go give them a hug?

   19. BKBen van Kerkwyk11:53

       (laughs) Maybe.

   20. JRJoe Rogan11:54

       And say, "Come on, guys. Join us."

   21. BKBen van Kerkwyk11:56

       Allegedly.

   22. JRJoe Rogan11:56

       "We'll blow you up."

   23. BKBen van Kerkwyk11:57

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan11:57

       "We'll make you, like, so much more popular. We'll, we'll help."

   25. BKBen van Kerkwyk12:01

       It should be.

   26. JRJoe Rogan12:01

       "We'll get you more tourism."

5. 12:02 – 15:44

   Gatekeepers vs. the internet: why the establishment resists alternative archaeology

   1. BKBen van Kerkwyk12:02

      That's, that's... And that's... I think the, the current guys that have been running the Department of Antiquities are embracing a little bit of that idea, but I, I do think there's been a little bit of gatekeeping that's happened-

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:11

      Well, it's... I think it's a generational thing.

   3. BKBen van Kerkwyk12:14

      ... in this in particular. I agree.

   4. JRJoe Rogan12:14

      You know?

   5. BKBen van Kerkwyk12:15

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:15

      And I think when you are an academic or you are a person that's in a position of power like Zahi is-

   7. BKBen van Kerkwyk12:21

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:21

      ... and you've been running things for so long and this new thing comes along, it's very threatening, you know? And when-

   9. BKBen van Kerkwyk12:27

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:27

       ... there's a lot of mo- movement and momentum behind it, it's very threatening. But that thing will just embrace you. If you say, "Oh my goodness. Look what we've learned. We've learned more-"

   11. BKBen van Kerkwyk12:36

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:36

       "... new, amazing things about, wait for it, Egyptians."

   13. BKBen van Kerkwyk12:41

       Yes. (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:41

       Like, it's the same people. It's just older.

   15. BKBen van Kerkwyk12:43

       It is.

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:43

       It's just older versions. Like, this is why-

   17. BKBen van Kerkwyk12:45

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:45

       ... it's so dumb. It's like you're just... Y- you are only allowing part of the narrative to go through about how magnificent this culture is. Ar- it's already-

   19. BKBen van Kerkwyk12:54

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:54

       ... the most magnificent culture in human civilization. In, in terms of history, when we look at it, nothing's anything like Egypt. It's c- crazy.

   21. BKBen van Kerkwyk13:01

       No, and it would only-

   22. JRJoe Rogan13:02

       And imagine it's bigger and crazier.

   23. BKBen van Kerkwyk13:04

       And richer. It would, it would... It just... The richer and a longer history in this place, it's still... Like, it is... It is Egypt. It would be.

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:09

       It's the most magical place in the world.

   25. BKBen van Kerkwyk13:10

       Yeah. It's... It is unfortunate. I was just talking about this, uh, just yesterday in fact. The, the, the nature of establishment being to resist change, right? It's, it's, it's unfortunate that, you know-

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:20

       And, and control.

   27. BKBen van Kerkwyk13:22

       To control and to resist change, and it's just-

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:24

       Maintain control-

   29. BKBen van Kerkwyk13:25

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:25

       ... not lose control. That's the fear.
6. 15:44 – 23:41

   Stretching the human timeline: long-lived kings, deep prehistory, and cataclysm context

   1. BKBen van Kerkwyk15:44

      Well, it does. And I th- I think what's, what's made this, well, let's call it alternative perspective, much more possible, even plausible is, is all of the, the, the adjacent fields of science and work that is, that is basically providing a, a, a plausible context for these ideas that there was an ancient lost civilization that is responsible for the roots of some of the things we see in these civilizations, responsible for some of the technological enigmas that we find on these sites. And that, you know, that's... This is all stuff that's happened in recent years in adjacent fields of science, things like the extension of the human timeline, the evidence for severe erosion on these sites, our understanding of climate history and, and cataclysm.

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:26

      The extension of the human timeline is huge.

   3. BKBen van Kerkwyk16:28

      Oh, it's huge. It-

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:29

      Because, you know, we were just... Jesse Michaels and I were just having a conversation about this.

   5. BKBen van Kerkwyk16:33

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:33

      I was like, imagine if you would not lose any cognitive abilities, y- y- no dec- no decline at all, and modern science figured out a way to let you live a thousand years. Imagine if you're a person who's working on material sciences and you're doing-

   7. BKBen van Kerkwyk16:48

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:48

      ... like, 3D printing. You get to live a thousand years and, and, and you're a researcher and you're, you still show up at work every day for a thousand years or 10,000 years.

   9. BKBen van Kerkwyk16:56

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:56

       That sounds nuts, but it doesn't. Because if you can extend life, you can extend life to, for a, a very prolon- especially with gene editing and-

   11. BKBen van Kerkwyk17:04

       Oh.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       ... a lot of the other crazy... Who knows if they already figured that out back then? Data brokers are invading your privacy. They're recording everything you do online. And if you live in the US, they're selling your information to anyone and everyone who's willing to buy it. But thankfully, there's a way to stop all the tracking and spying, and that's with ExpressVPN. ExpressVPN is an app that hides your IP address and reroutes 100% of your online activity through secure, encrypted servers. This keeps data brokers from tracking your information, protecting you from invasive advertisers, scammers, and even criminals. And ExpressVPN is now offering three different plans, allowing you to customize your VPN experience. The basic plan starts as low as $3.49 a month. That's less than 12 cents a day. Or if you want all the bells and whistles, including identity protection, credit monitoring, and a dedicated IP, just choose one of their more premium plans. It's up to you. Plus, right now, you can get four extra months of service if you tap the banner or go to expressvpn.com/rogen. That's a price as low as $3.49 a month plus four extra months of service. Go to expressvpn.com/rogen. And if you're watching on YouTube, get your four extra months by scanning the QR code on screen or by clicking the link in the description.

   13. BKBen van Kerkwyk18:35

       I mean, there seems to be some evidence that they, that they might have because, I mean-

   14. JRJoe Rogan18:38

       What about the Sumerian Kings List? Like-

   15. BKBen van Kerkwyk18:40

       Well, this is, this is a big part of it. Yeah, I mean, not just them, but almost every civilization that, that talks about ... even the Bible, it talks about pre-Diluvian or pre-flood, uh, civilizations, often talks about people living for hundreds of years, if not longer than that, thousands of years. You have an Egyptian Kings List that does the same thing. But even in the Bible, you, you know, Noah was-

   16. JRJoe Rogan19:01

       600.

   17. BKBen van Kerkwyk19:02

       ... 100. 600, right? So you have-

   18. JRJoe Rogan19:03

       I think.

   19. BKBen van Kerkwyk19:03

       Yeah, I think something like that. You have, you have many, uh, examples of these, what they would describe as pre-cataclysm or pre-flood civilizations, where people live for a long time. But you just ... I mean, j- not just ... there's an extension of individual human timeline, but we also know that there's an extension of the human, like how long humans have been here.

   20. JRJoe Rogan19:23

       Right.

   21. BKBen van Kerkwyk19:23

       Right? Because y- that's going back further and further all the time. We have, we have skulls and fossil record evidence now where it's just slightly more than 300,000 years genetic and, and studies into teeth morphology make the possibility open to, whatever, 700,000, 800,000 years.

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:38

       You've seen that recent skull?

   23. BKBen van Kerkwyk19:38

       There was a skull found.

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:39

       Yeah.

   25. BKBen van Kerkwyk19:39

       Yeah, I mean, it's ... I think that was more, I think that's more of a homo sapien clade skull, so it's like a ... it may not be homo sapien exactly us.

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:46

       Right.

   27. BKBen van Kerkwyk19:47

       It might be a variety, but that's, that's a whole other aspect on this, too, is, is that where the last humans left, right? There were other types of humans that we know lived for, in some cases, couple million years-

   28. JRJoe Rogan19:58

       Yeah.

   29. BKBen van Kerkwyk19:58

       ... that had f- similar, like, even bigger brain sizes than we did. We don't, we don't really know what their capabilities were. We, we only can work with ourselves and then, uh, you combine that lengthening of time of like, okay, you have an intelligent social species that has the ability to build on knowledge of your, you know, your ancestors. So, you know, one guy spends his life making a spear, the next guy spends his life perfecting how to throw it. There ... it's just-

   30. JRJoe Rogan20:26

       Yeah.
7. 23:41 – 32:44

   Erosion on the Giza Plateau: limestone weathering, restoration layers, and the sand problem

   1. BKBen van Kerkwyk23:41

      on some of these sites. One of the, my favorite topics in the last couple of years has been looking at the erosion on the Giza Plateau.

   2. JRJoe Rogan23:47

      Yeah, I wanted to bring that up.

   3. BKBen van Kerkwyk23:48

      And if some of the big monuments in particular, like the, the whole middle pyramid complex on the Giza Plateau-

   4. JRJoe Rogan23:54

      Let's show some of the images that you used in some of your videos because-

   5. BKBen van Kerkwyk23:57

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan23:57

      ... it's pretty, it's pretty fascinating when you look at it. It's kind of undeniable.

   7. BKBen van Kerkwyk24:02

      It, it is. And well, what's, what's fun about this is too is, is that we don't have to guess, right?

   8. JRJoe Rogan24:07

      Right.

   9. BKBen van Kerkwyk24:07

      We know how long it takes. We ... studies have been done about like limestone erosion. Turns out there's-... almost an endless number of conveniently dated limestone slabs all around the world. They're, they're tombstones in cemeteries, right? So you can ... they get dated, they get cut, they get inscribed with the date when the, when it was put up. And then, so you can measure it and you can come back over, whatever, decades and measure erosion and say, "How long does it take for this face of this limestone erosion to, to recede?"

   10. JRJoe Rogan24:36

       This is the nutty stuff.

   11. BKBen van Kerkwyk24:37

       Yeah, and-

   12. JRJoe Rogan24:38

       Because we're assuming that unless something happened to the outside of that-

   13. BKBen van Kerkwyk24:42

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan24:42

       ... that this was, at one point in time, flat and smooth.

   15. BKBen van Kerkwyk24:44

       Y- uh, 100% because there are still blocks that are protected. So a lot of this has been rebuilt. This is tricky to see. So see, you can actually see that the f- the, the less eroded sections are actually modern restorations 'cause this is so eroded that it's falling apart.

   16. JRJoe Rogan24:58

       Right.

   17. BKBen van Kerkwyk24:58

       And this isn't even the exterior of this structure. This is the interior core masonry. All of this was also, for God knows how many thousands of years, encased in granite.

   18. JRJoe Rogan25:07

       It also points to a trend. It w- uh, points to a pattern that we, when human beings find ancient things, they do renovations, try to keep them.

   19. BKBen van Kerkwyk25:16

       Oh, uh, pfff-

   20. JRJoe Rogan25:17

       Yeah.

   21. BKBen van Kerkwyk25:17

       ... yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan25:18

       Which is one of the things that's been a-

   23. BKBen van Kerkwyk25:20

       Again and ...

   24. JRJoe Rogan25:20

       You know-

   25. BKBen van Kerkwyk25:21

       Again and again, yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan25:21

       Yeah, over and over and over again. We've talked about that.

   27. BKBen van Kerkwyk25:23

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan25:23

       There's so many structures that seem like there's multiple timelines working on the same exact-

   29. BKBen van Kerkwyk25:27

       Uh.

   30. JRJoe Rogan25:28

       ... ground.
8. 32:44 – 38:50

   Schoch’s water-erosion argument and a greener Egypt: the African Humid Period and Nile branches

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:44

      Just in the interest ... Yeah, just in the interest of keeping this standalone, please explain to people the whole, um, deal with Dr. Robert Schoch-

   2. BKBen van Kerkwyk32:51

      Oh, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:51

      ... from Boston University and the water erosion.

   4. BKBen van Kerkwyk32:54

      Yes.

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:54

      I know ... And if you've heard this before, I'm sorry, I just want it for people that are like, "What?" The-

   6. BKBen van Kerkwyk32:59

      N-

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:59

      ... the water erosion that appears to be thousands of years of rainfall.

   8. BKBen van Kerkwyk33:01

      Yeah, it's, it's actually good ... It's good background context, because it does apply to not only the Sphinx, uh, it's the most, um, famous example, I think, uh, and well-known example of, of a ... of, again, an adjacent field of science coming in and challenging some of the doctrine that's been, uh, around Egyptology. But it was actually Schwaller de Lubicz who originally, I think, proposed it. His work was followed up by John Anthony West, who then brought Dr. Robert Schoch, who's a, who's a professor of geology at Boston University, to the Sphinx. Uh, this was, I believe, the late '80s, early '90s, and he went and looked at the erosional pat- So the Sphinx sits inside an enclosure, it's carved from bedrock, so it was originally what you'd call a yardang, which is a ... like a limestone outcropping, and they ... so they cut, they cut down in this big enclosure and they cut the floor, and then they, they sort of shaped the Sphinx from this natural outcropping of bedrock. So you had ... And we know this because the, the, the structure next to the, the Sphinx, or in front of it called the Sphinx Temple, is actually ... You can line up the sedimentary layers of the blocks that are in there from the Sphinx enclosure, so we know that there were blocks taken from here. So this is all predictably sort of cut walls, and the Sphinx would have been nicely finished when it was, uh, and he looked at these patterns. If you go there today, I think I have pictures of the walls of the Sphinx enclosure in there, and it's just these deeply eroded vertical channels. And, and the Sphinx body's harder to tell because it's been restored so many times. The, the ancient Egyptians restored it, the Romans restored it, we restored it s- a couple different times.

   9. JRJoe Rogan34:28

      Assholes.

   10. BKBen van Kerkwyk34:30

       Yeah, yeah-

   11. JRJoe Rogan34:31

       (laughs)

   12. BKBen van Kerkwyk34:31

       ... it's fine. But the nice thing is, the walls of the enclosure really haven't been touched, so you can see the natural erosive patterns, and he looked at that and went, "That's rainfall erosion." But not just-

   13. JRJoe Rogan34:40

       Mm-hmm.

   14. BKBen van Kerkwyk34:41

       ... some rainfall erosion, literally the result of thousands of years. It's the only way you would get these patterns in the stone is thousands of years of rainfall erosion. Obviously, Giza's a really, really dry ... I mean, Egypt's a really dry place these days, you have to go back to time periods pre-4000 BC when the Sahara was a savanna, it was grasslands with lake basins and river systems, and it had a lot more rain. You didn't have this annual flood f- um, you know, uh, cycle that you have now, it's ... It was, like, a lot more rainfall, it was much more verdant and green, the Giza Plateau would have been green. And it was-

   15. JRJoe Rogan35:19

       Which makes sense that that's why they would settle there in the first place.

   16. BKBen van Kerkwyk35:21

       Exactly. (laughs) Yeah, why you ... When y- They didn't build it in a desert. I mean, you wouldn't-

   17. JRJoe Rogan35:25

       Right.

   18. BKBen van Kerkwyk35:25

       ... because it would fill up with sand, you'd-

   19. JRJoe Rogan35:26

       It also makes sense why they would flourish, because they had so much resources, because it was, like, so green and fertile-

   20. BKBen van Kerkwyk35:31

       Right, and-

   21. JRJoe Rogan35:32

       ... probably had plenty of plants, plenty of animals.

   22. BKBen van Kerkwyk35:34

       Well, there's ... You know, there's i- There's a really other good point associated with that, that I, I wanted to bring up, and ... But first, just to finish on the, the Sphinx erosion, so when, when Schoch came out and said this, he really thought he was, um, you know, moving the story forward, and he took it to an archaeological conference and they literally laughed him out of the room, and they said, "This is ... You know, this is, this is, this is ridiculous." Like, "Where are the potsherds?" Was I think Mark Lehner's comment-

   23. JRJoe Rogan35:57

       Yeah.

   24. BKBen van Kerkwyk35:57

       ... saying like, "Where's the evidence that something's tw- at least 12,000 years old?"

   25. JRJoe Rogan36:00

       Mocking.

   26. BKBen van Kerkwyk36:00

       Mocking them-

   27. JRJoe Rogan36:01

       Yeah.

   28. BKBen van Kerkwyk36:01

       Yeah, so he was ... He got his ... A good taste of the, I guess, the old boy network of the, of the archaeologists (laughs) on that day. But he's ... You know, he's being very conservative in that dating also o- of saying, well, 12,000 years, it could well be tens of thousands of years, and in fact, it, it seems more likely to me based on the erosional evidence that we see not only in the Sphinx enclosure but, but elsewhere, uh, on the Giza Plateau. It's, it's ... There's many places where you see just a huge amount of erosion that you can't really explain within the timelines and the climate of dynastic Egypt as we know it from, you know, roughly 3000 BC till even now. Like, the ... Because you're still ... It's still eroding, right? But yeah, he, he ... It could be vastly more ancient. I actually, I actually think there's, uh, something else that came out-... uh, was it earlier this year? I think it was much earlier this year or maybe late la-, uh, late last year. But there was a study done that showed that during the African humid period, so this period of time before the deser- desertification of Egypt, the Sahara becoming a desert, when it was green and there was more consistent rainfall, there was obviously a lot more re- water in the Nile, as we call it, and it had different channels. One of the things they discovered was that there was a branch of the River Nile, and it's called the Aramat Branch, and it was, uh, in places up to a kilometer or most of a mile wide, so it was quite a extensive branch. But it turns out that all of these valley temples, on all of these pyramid sites from Dashur and Saqqara, Abusir, Abu Gorab, Giza, all of those valley temples were built on the shores of this e- extinct branch of the Nile. So it's, it's like pyramid com- you know, pyramids, when you look at a pyramid, it's not just a pyramid, there's a whole complex associated with it. There's, there's a temple or there's a structure at the pyramid, there's a causeway, there's what they call valley temples down. And it's like, it, these were all built on the shorelines of this, of this branch of the Nile that went basically disappeared 4,000, somewhere between 4,000 and 3500 BC but it was in place for thousands and thousands of years-

   29. JRJoe Rogan38:06

       Oh, boy.

   30. BKBen van Kerkwyk38:06

       ... before that. And today, if you go there and they say, "Well, you know, the Valley Temple, yep, they would ship the stones from Aswan and it'd be like three months of the year it would flood enough where you can get a boat in there." I mean, I've seen pictures. There are pictures of when that flood happened before they built the dam and stopped that process, and it's, in some years it's a puddle. Like it's, there's not ... I mean, you're talking about b- boats that were carrying hundreds of tons of granite, and only in a three-month period of year can you get them in there. There's many, there would've been many years where there's not even remotely enough water to get it anywhere near the Valley Temple.
9. 38:50 – 43:35

   Colossal statues and ‘usurpation’: transport impossibilities, craftsmanship, and Ramses’ rebranding

   1. BKBen van Kerkwyk38:50

      I, the logistical achievements of the ancient Egypt- of, of what is represented in ancient Egypt is th- like, like, no- nothing you can see anywhere. I mean, there's Balbek and then there's ... To me, the best example is the statue at Tanis. There's a statue ... I mean, there's several of these thousand plus ton statues. A hu- like half a dozen of them, they've got remnants of them, but there was one that was at ta- it was moved 1,000 kilometers. Like-

   2. JRJoe Rogan39:18

      (laughs)

   3. BKBen van Kerkwyk39:19

      1,000 kilometers, and it would've been ... It was a single piece granite statue, easily 1,000 tons.

   4. JRJoe Rogan39:24

      Show that image, Jamie, if you would please.

   5. BKBen van Kerkwyk39:26

      Um, gi- I think it's giant objects in there or something. But there's, I mean, and this is-

   6. JRJoe Rogan39:31

      (sighs)

   7. BKBen van Kerkwyk39:31

      Tannis in the delta, Aswan down here at the, at the quarry. I mean, downstream on the Nile there's, there's, there's another example of the, the one at, at Karnak that's ... The whole shoulder and arm of a, of a composite quartzite. Again, gigantic. It's the size of the Statue of Liberty basically. Like single piece granite solid statue. I mean, there's, there's all these piece- that's a small one.

   8. JRJoe Rogan39:53

      Which is insane to say.

   9. BKBen van Kerkwyk39:54

      That's, yeah, that's-

   10. JRJoe Rogan39:55

       Look at the people in the background and say that's a small one.

   11. BKBen van Kerkwyk39:57

       Nah, it's only 200 tons.

   12. JRJoe Rogan39:58

       (laughs)

   13. BKBen van Kerkwyk39:58

       I mean, it's ... 250 maybe. It's not ... You have them 10 times almost that size.

   14. JRJoe Rogan40:04

       The crazy thing is also how beautiful it is.

   15. BKBen van Kerkwyk40:07

       Oh-

   16. JRJoe Rogan40:07

       Like how symmetrical it is.

   17. BKBen van Kerkwyk40:09

       The workmanship on these is, is astonishing. And you can still feel, like this is one of the, the signs I think, when you get to the finishing on some of these statues. Uh, that's a, yeah, that's a giant kneecap. Um, uh, there's one with an arm and a shoulder sort of poking out that's a really good example.

   18. JRJoe Rogan40:26

       And that's-

   19. BKBen van Kerkwyk40:26

       That's Balbek, yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan40:27

       The point is, like when you, when you talk about how beautiful, like how that one that's lying down, Jamie? Oh, there's a ...

   21. BKBen van Kerkwyk40:34

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan40:34

       The one, the back one a couple. That one.

   23. BKBen van Kerkwyk40:36

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan40:36

       But look at the f- the finishing on that.

   25. BKBen van Kerkwyk40:38

       That's nice.

   26. JRJoe Rogan40:39

       Like how incredible. You see his nipple. You see all the ... You know what I mean? Thousands of years later you see the detail on the headdress. You see all, and then you have to realize, like this was done with people that didn't have steel.

   27. BKBen van Kerkwyk40:52

       Yeah, and you can s-

   28. JRJoe Rogan40:52

       Supposedly.

   29. BKBen van Kerkwyk40:53

       Right. Uh, definitely. I mean, they d- yeah, later periods, um, like in the new kingdom they had some more iron, not necessarily steel, but-

   30. JRJoe Rogan41:00

       But you know, you notice something else here. Like see that cartouche. Mm-hmm.
10. 43:35 – 51:19

    Humans as engineered? DNA as an ‘operating system’ and the tridactyl mummy question

    1. JRJoe Rogan43:35

       I think they made us. I think something came here from somewhere else or something was already here, and, and-

    2. BKBen van Kerkwyk43:40

       Intervention theory.

    3. JRJoe Rogan43:41

       ... did something with lower hominids.

    4. BKBen van Kerkwyk43:44

       Uh, have you read Lloyd Pye's work? Everything-

    5. JRJoe Rogan43:46

       Yeah. I've heard of it, but I haven't read any of his...

    6. BKBen van Kerkwyk43:48

       It's Everything You Think You Know is Wrong. Fun lecture. H- rest in peace, Lloyd. He, uh, was... And there's some interesting genetic evidence that's... This... I think suggests that as a possibility, a chromosomal difference between us and other-

    7. JRJoe Rogan44:00

       Mm-hmm.

    8. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:00

       ... mammals of our type. Uh, almost like we've had these... The, the tellurides have been attached. We've been genetically engineered. We had-

    9. JRJoe Rogan44:07

       Greg Braden talks about that.

    10. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:08

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan44:08

        Yeah.

    12. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:08

        We have some real strange characteristics for-

    13. JRJoe Rogan44:11

        Mm-hmm.

    14. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:11

        ... being on this planet. Like, we dive exposure at 80 degrees-

    15. JRJoe Rogan44:15

        (laughs)

    16. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:15

        ... in the shade. We can't look at the sun. You ever see dogs? You get a dog stare at the sun like this, and you're like, "What are you doing?" Like, "I'm fine."

    17. JRJoe Rogan44:22

        (laughs)

    18. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:22

        "Why can't you do that?" We can't even see at night. We have no benefit of the night vision.

    19. JRJoe Rogan44:26

        I know.

    20. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:26

        Yeah. We-

    21. JRJoe Rogan44:27

        It's interesting also when they look at all these other versions of humans that they find, almost all of 'em were more durable.

    22. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:33

        Oh, broomsticks to ax handles durable.

    23. JRJoe Rogan44:36

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    24. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:36

        Like, it's multiple gaps of...

    25. JRJoe Rogan44:39

        But isn't that kind of in the Bible when... Doesn't the Bible say the meek shall inherit the Earth?

    26. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:43

        Well, we're the meek when it comes to, like-

    27. JRJoe Rogan44:44

        I think we're the meek.

    28. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:45

        Yeah. We're just the meanest, maybe, but...

    29. JRJoe Rogan44:46

        Yeah. We're the meanest.

    30. BKBen van Kerkwyk44:47

        (laughs)
11. 51:19 – 1:22:12

    Giza underground mysteries: Osiris Shaft tunnels, Japanese probing, and the resurfaced Sphinx footage

    1. JRJoe Rogan51:19

       If what those Italian scientists are saying is underneath the- the Giza Plateau-

    2. BKBen van Kerkwyk51:23

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan51:23

       ... all bets are off. You're looking-

    4. BKBen van Kerkwyk51:26

       I-

    5. JRJoe Rogan51:26

       ... at something that is like... Is- is kooky as the pyramids are? That's the tip of the iceberg.

    6. BKBen van Kerkwyk51:30

       True. Yeah, it's... And that's, that's why I wanted to... The Labyrinth was so interesting because, you know, that, that, their announcements around what they, these, you know, f- s- 800-meter shafts and massive cubes, kilometers deep under the plateau, is... Kinda came outta nowhere. But there is, there are these accounts for these other places like the Labyrinth, where there's, there's some, like, historical legitimacy to them. Like, there's been accounts of them. Um, although, uh, you know, o- over time, I, I, th- what they're talking about beneath the, the Giza Plateau, maybe not to the full extent (laughs) of what they're saying, I'm still having trouble with, with that. But, uh, there's certainly a lot more... We know there's a lot more down there, right? That, that we, at least the public, has never discovered. Um, we know that there are... So beneath the bottom of the Isara Shaft, for example, we know that there are further tunnels that, that go off from there, that go underneath it. The Isara Shaft, uh, for people who don't know, is, is, is one of the... It's like a... It's, there's three passage, like three rooms, and it goes down a little over 100 feet or so, beneath the ground, beneath the causeway, on the- the middle pyramid complex. You go down this big ladder, you go into one room, you go down another ladder, there's a bigger room with boxes in it, and you go down a further ladder to the bottom room, which also has boxes in it. Uh, today, it's the water table's way up high. But we know... In the past, this is one of the things that has recently come to light, is that, th- that down there in the bottom, in the 1990s, that was scanned with ground-penetrating radar at the bottom level, and they found, yep, there are actually like 4-meter-long, eight-feet-high tunnels with domed ceilings below that, uh, even, even further, that nobody has, as far as we know, have ever explored. There are also tunnels leading off from that bottom level that head off towards the Sphinx and that head off towards the pyramid. And in fact, they fork-

    7. JRJoe Rogan53:17

       (sighs)

    8. BKBen van Kerkwyk53:17

       ... because there was a, a little-known exploration done by a team of Japanese scientists in the early 2000s that got like a camera on a long pole, and they shoved it down through the mud, and they stuffed it about 20 meters into one of these tunnels. And they found these manmade structures, like tunnels, and it forks. And that it actually forks off, and one seems to head towards the Great Pyramid, and one keeps going up towards Khafre.

    9. JRJoe Rogan53:40

       (sighs)

    10. BKBen van Kerkwyk53:41

        So there's tons of stuff below there. And in fact, if you ever go to the Giza Plateau, oh, at that- that causeway, where... If you're heading up towards the middle pyramid, you've got the Isara Shaft on the left, but on the right, you have, uh, I mean, uh, ten of these massive shafts that have, that... We don't really know how deep they are, uh, or whether or not they've ever been fully excavated, but they just go way down into the ground. So it's... This could be like... You know, it's like the very top layer of things that are being claimed by the, the Italian scientists and their, and their scans. Uh, but there was...We know that these tunnels extend, uh, down to beneath the Sphinx, for example. Like, there's long been rumored that there's a- a tunnel, an entrance at the end- at the back of the Sphinx. In fact, if you go there, you- there's a little box and a little hole. Doesn't go anywhere. I've stuck a camera in there and had a look, but this is what happened in the- the 1990s. So- so, you know, uh, John Anthony West... I'm sure you've seen the Mysteries of the Sphinx, right?

    11. GIGuest (secondary, in-studio)54:34

        Yeah, he's been on it a couple times.

    12. BKBen van Kerkwyk54:34

        Super famous documentary. Yeah, I know- I know he has, but you've seen his work.

    13. GIGuest (secondary, in-studio)54:37

        Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    14. BKBen van Kerkwyk54:38

        Wonderful documentary. Charlton Heston.

    15. GIGuest (secondary, in-studio)54:40

        Charlton Heston, yeah. That's-

    16. BKBen van Kerkwyk54:41

        Narrated it.

    17. GIGuest (secondary, in-studio)54:41

        Well, that's when that, uh, archeologist is mocking-

    18. BKBen van Kerkwyk54:44

        Yes.

    19. GIGuest (secondary, in-studio)54:44

        ... uh, Graham Hancock and John Anthony West.

    20. BKBen van Kerkwyk54:46

        That's right.

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    23. BKBen van Kerkwyk56:13

        Yeah, so the- he produ- he did that research, I think, in 1991, uh- uh, 1990, 1991, it came out and John Anthony went- he actually won an Emmy for best documentary, I think, um, for it, which totally, uh, warranted. But so he- he as part of that work had a guy named Tom Debecky, who was a ground penetrating radar expert, and he did work around the Sphinx and he found the existence of, like, large regular chambers beneath the Sphinx. And then when that documentary came out, I mean, uh, uh, allegedly Zahi was incensed by it because it talked about Atlantis and it- it made the suggestion that there might- this might be, you know, a hall of records. It talked about Edgar Cayce. And he then denied after that, um, John Anthony West and Robert Schoch a- any permits to do any further work, but what's weird is- is that Zahi ha- and Mark Lehner have this longstanding connection with the Edgar Cayce Foundation, which is like a- this- it's this weird dichotomy. It's like on the public facing, they decry anything Atlantis based, but then on the private side, they seem to be enabling explorations by the ARE, and in fact, they've been enabling the ARE to do drilling experiments and other things at the Sphinx since the late 1970s. And there was an- a- an expedition, notorious one, that- that no one ever knew what happened. It was called the Shore expedition. Um, Dr. Joseph Shore, Joseph Jahoda, and then a- a guy named Boris Said were- were- were running this Shore expedition. And Boris Said was a friend of John Anthony West, he was the executive producer for, uh, Mysteries of the Sphinx, and- and in... This happened in, like, '95 through about '97, 1997, and they partnered up with Zahi, gave them a five-year unlimited permit to do whatever they wanted up at the, um, on the Giza Plateau. And one of the stories that came out of that was, uh, a story... So Boris Said, who unfortunately has also passed away since, but he talked about filming Zahi Watt. He said, "Well, we got to the back of the Sphinx," and he said, what, you know, "We want to make another documentary like the Mysteries of the Sphinx." And he said, "Well, what if we open up a tunnel that no one's ever opened up before?" And he's like, "That- that'd be great. What- what sort of tunnel?" He said, "Well, a tunnel under the Sphinx." And Boris Said, "Oh, that'd be fantastic." So actually filmed him going into the rump of the Sphinx, standing down in there and saying, you know, the- the quote is something like, "Even Indiana Jones wouldn't believe that he was- he was here. We're standing inside the body of the Sphinx. Nobody knows where this tunnel goes, but we're gonna open it for the first time." And he's down in this space with a- with basically a blocked-up tunnel beneath the Sphinx. And this- he filmed all of this, but then this- this footage all disappeared. So during the expedition, it was kind of shut down, and then they got into a legal dispute, like- like Boris Said and Joseph Shore got into this battle. The footage was never seen, but he went on Art Bell in the late '90s and talked about it, and we're like, "Oh, damn." So this- yeah, and they also talked about they did stuff at the Osiris shaft, they did that ground penetrating radar work, they did sonic experiments in the Great Pyramid. There's a lot that happened at the Shore expedition run by the Edga- it was- they're all ARE members, like... And they- the- the stated goal of Joseph Shore was- was always to find the hall of records, right? Um, I mean, this all continued into the 2000s too with- with- with that, uh, that organization. But there was all this tantalizing mystery of this footage. Like, where the fuck is this footage? Apparently the Department of Justice had a copy of it because there was this lawsuit that was going on, and nobody knew. So this is- it's kind of out there, and then- and then it was only like earlier this year, it turns out that... So what happened, so Boris Said was- was sick with liver cancer, but he was trying to raise funds to make this documentary. So he put together this tape with some of this footage from this expedition, and he was selling VHS copies of it as a way to invest in this documentary, and then a cou- like a year later, he just- he- that's when he passed away. So there was- there's been a handful of these VHS tapes out there in random homes from the mid to late '90s just sitting away with this tape, and then eventually someone this year actually digitized it, put it up on YouTube as an unlisted video. I found out about it, and so all of a sudden now we- we actually have this footage. We have Zahi going into the Sphinx at the back, saying these- these words.

    24. GIGuest (secondary, in-studio)1:00:14

        Can we see it?

    25. BKBen van Kerkwyk1:00:14

        Yeah, it's- it's if you, Jamie, if you pull up my, I think it's the latest or the couple latest videos about the rare footage found from the Sphinx, it opens with that-... with that footage.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

        Dude, thank God you're out there.

    27. BKBen van Kerkwyk1:00:28

        (laughs)

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:00:28

        I'm so excited you do this. It means so much to me that you do this.

    29. BKBen van Kerkwyk1:00:32

        It's... Oh, it's... I love doing it. It's... This is-

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:00:34

        I know you do.

Episode duration: 2:48:24