Joe Rogan Experience #2418 - Chris Williamson

1. 0:00 – 1:24

   Training for mental health + the phone as a “hand-staring drug”

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) What am I doing?

   4. NANarrator0:13

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson0:14

      Just looking. To feel a bit less shit about myself.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson0:16

      Just stave off death.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Well, doesn't it do something for your mind?

   9. CWChris Williamson0:20

      Of course.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       Doesn't it help you?

   11. CWChris Williamson0:21

       Yeah, of course it, of course it does, but when you compare it with life and death, there's a little bit of a difference.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, there's a def- definitely a difference, but, uh, just for mental health, that's the main reason to do it for me-

   13. CWChris Williamson0:36

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       ... is mental health. It's, it's such a difference between not doing it and doing it.

   15. CWChris Williamson0:40

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       I'm like two different, totally different people. You got notes on that thing or something?

   17. CWChris Williamson0:44

       Always.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       You gotta get one of these babies, the little kickstand jammies. Those are the shit. I love-

   19. CWChris Williamson0:49

       Oh, sexy.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       I love those. Look at that. It's flat.

   21. CWChris Williamson0:51

       Sexy, sexy.

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson0:53

       All right. All right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       Encourages you to waste your time watching YouTube videos. (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson0:57

       Yeah, without having to hold it.

   26. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       'Cause it props up, yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson0:59

       Beautiful.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       You feel like a fool sitting there, staring at your camera, holding it in your hand.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:03

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       I always said like, if there was a drug that made people stare at their hand for six hours a day, everybody'd be like, "Oh my God, we're, there's really a problem in this country. People are just staring at their hands." Yeah.
2. 1:24 – 3:07

   AR glasses, beta interfaces, and the fear of “losing humanity”

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:24

      Yeah. (laughs) It's such a crazy thing we're doing. And now, of course, there's AR glasses that are eventually going to put whatever TikTok feed in like one eye, where you're watching someone in the other eye. (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson1:35

      Have you ever tried those?

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:36

      I've messed around with them a little bit. Uh, Zuck was here and, uh, he let me try the new ones that haven't been released yet. They were really interesting. And you're, you move a cursor around with your eyeballs, and you can do things with your fingers. You can pinch and, and spread things and stuff with your fingers, and-

   4. CWChris Williamson1:53

      (sucks teeth) And play games with your fingers. You can like... It's not quite as responsive as you'd like it to be, but it's very beta. Hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:01

      You know?

   6. CWChris Williamson2:01

      Fuck. Cool.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:02

      Pretty cool.

   8. CWChris Williamson2:03

      It is pretty cool.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:04

      But also, we're losing humanity. We're gonna (laughs) we're gonna be taken in. We're gonna incorporate with the machine.

   10. CWChris Williamson2:11

       (inhales deeply) Yeah, well, I don't know. I think a lot of people feel like that would be a better version of the life that they have, and that's the saddest thing, that, um, people-

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:20

       Yeah, yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson2:20

       People of older generations look at young guys and girls and how much time they spend online, and they think, "The, this is ridiculous. Why are they spend, why are they caring so much about what is occurring on the internet?" But they don't realize, people spend more time on screens than they do asleep. So, the digital world is the real world for these people.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:39

       Ooh.

   14. CWChris Williamson2:39

       Like the digital world is more real than the real world is.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:42

       Ooh, I didn't think of it that way. There are a lot of people that do spend more time on screens than they do asleep. That's really common.

   16. CWChris Williamson2:51

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       I like to balance that out. I like to b- spend half as much time on my phone as I do asleep. (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson2:59

       Well, that would be a good way to enforce it, right? You have to, you log how much sleep time you've had and then that's-

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:03

       Yeah, so I'm gonna start sleeping 12 hours a day, so I get my solid-

   20. CWChris Williamson3:05

       So I can spend six times... Yeah. (laughs)

3. 3:07 – 4:00

   Designed addiction: willpower vs. the most optimized attention machines ever built

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:07

      Six h- six hours wasting. It's quite a resource, if you think about it, like a, like an, a lack of an appreciation of your resource. 'Cause the resource of your time and your attention, it's very valuable, and you can convert it into all sorts of amazing skills and information and, you know, knowledge-

   2. CWChris Williamson3:27

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:27

      ... and change your whole life. Or you can just stare at stupid shit all day long.

   4. CWChris Williamson3:32

      It's so compelling though, dude.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:33

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson3:34

      It's been designed by the most profitable companies on the planet with the smartest behavioral scientists in history. Like, it's an unfair fight.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:42

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson3:42

      It really is an unfair fight. And that's why-

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:44

      Eh, sorta. You could not do it, though.

   10. CWChris Williamson3:48

       Oh, you need to lean in, but it's like-

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:50

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson3:50

       ... uh, there is an, there is way more willpower you need to use in order to be able to not than like just whatever the course of natural human history is or natural human behavior.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:59

       Yeah.

4. 4:00 – 12:21

   Greta dyes Venice green: activism, aesthetics, and backlash dynamics

   1. CWChris Williamson4:00

      Like, it's so easy just... Or, alternatively, you could dye the Venice River green.

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:06

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson4:06

      (thumps desk) That's what happens when you don't have enough phone battery.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:10

      (laughs) I sent that to Chris today, Greta Thunberg, she dyed the Venice canals green to protest the, what? What, a lack of action and, and climate change?

   5. CWChris Williamson4:22

      Yeah, pull back, uh, uh, uh, a call to pull back carbon, uh, fuel in Europe. And they didn't just do it in Venice, they did it in 10 cities around Italy. But Venice has obviously got this gorgeous waterway, its g- entire city built on water.

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:38

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson4:40

      Bro.

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:41

      Yeah, that's hard to see how ugly it is, Jamie. I could send you a video of it. She, 'cause I sent Chris a video. It's so, you know, it's just like how much attention do you need, lady? Okay, stop.

   9. CWChris Williamson4:54

      (laughs) Sky News Australia refers to her as a Swedish doom goblin.

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:58

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson4:59

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:01

       So w- Sky News is the one that's weirdly pro-Republican American politics.

   13. CWChris Williamson5:06

       Super right wing, super right wing.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:07

       It's like, who's funding that? There's no way that there's that much of an appetite in Australia for American politics.

   15. CWChris Williamson5:13

       Oh yeah, dude.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:14

       So that's what it looks like. That's disgusting. I was there this summer, it's fucking beautiful. It's so b- and Venice is so gorgeous and so ancient and so interesting. And to have this self-important twat pour a bunch of green dye into that water, you should go to jail for that. Like you're, you're ruining this experience for thousands and thousands of people who don't, not just the ones who live in that amazing place, but the ones who get to visit. I mean, someone figured out a way to make a whole city by shoving pylons into the ground, and they did it a long time ago. It's all wood. The whole city is stacked up on wood. They take these wood poles, they shove them into the ground. It's a specific type of wood that doesn't rot when it gets wet and waterlogged, that actually hardens. I forget what kind of wood it is. They, I watched this whole thing on it. But...... I mean, it's very stable. I mean, sometimes they get some flooding. Like, one time we were there and, like, the, the lobby of this place was flooded.

   17. CWChris Williamson6:18

       Mm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:19

       It does flood. But it's also, it's so fucking beautiful. And the architecture's so amazing. It's such a gorgeous place, and it just relaxes you, like instantly when you're there. You're like, "Wow, I just wanna have a espresso and eat some pasta and just chill out."

   19. CWChris Williamson6:33

       I went last summer. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been.

   20. JRJoe Rogan6:36

       And this fucking dummy decides to just pour green dye, and how much green dye did you put in there? And what kind of an effect is that gonna have on life?

   21. CWChris Williamson6:44

       So, they claimed that it was environmentally safe, rah, rah. I don't know how environmentally safe anything-

   22. JRJoe Rogan6:49

       How can that be possible?

   23. CWChris Williamson6:50

       ... of that green color can be. Uh, but yeah. What was it? 48-hour ban and $170 fine.

   24. JRJoe Rogan6:56

       That's it?

   25. CWChris Williamson6:56

       Yeah. Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan6:58

       Wow.

   27. CWChris Williamson6:59

       I, I-

   28. JRJoe Rogan6:59

       I think he should go to jail for a night.

   29. CWChris Williamson7:01

       I think about this a lot, man. The, um... In some ways I understand why the rhetoric gets more and more inflammatory. So, if you care about an issue, if you really, really think that this issue's important-

   30. JRJoe Rogan7:15

       Mm-hmm.
5. 12:21 – 14:19

   The Cassandra complex: being right early vs. being wrong (and not knowing which)

   1. CWChris Williamson12:21

      Have you heard of the Cassandra complex? You know what this is?

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:23

      No.

   3. CWChris Williamson12:23

      Fucking brilliant, dude. So, uh, in ancient Greek mythology, Cassandra is, uh, given the gift of being able to see the future by Apollo, and then she rejects his advances, so he curses her and he says that, "For the rest of time, you're still going to be able to see the future, but people aren't going to believe you."

   4. JRJoe Rogan12:40

      Ooh.

   5. CWChris Williamson12:40

      So, she foresees the downfall of Troy. She warns everybody. People don't listen. Troy burns anyway. And it's basically being right, but early. So, uh, Rachel Carson, she wrote that book Silent Spring, 1962. It's about, um, uh, DDT, environmental epidemics.

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:59

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson13:00

      She gets mocked by scientists, castigated by everybody, but her work led to the banning of DDT.

   8. JRJoe Rogan13:07

      What year was this?

   9. CWChris Williamson13:07

      1962.

   10. JRJoe Rogan13:08

       Interesting.

   11. CWChris Williamson13:09

       Uh, Ignaz Semmelweis, like 1840s, he realizes that doctors are transmitting childbed fever from corpses to mothers-

   12. JRJoe Rogan13:18

       Oof.

   13. CWChris Williamson13:18

       ... because they're not washing their hands.

   14. JRJoe Rogan13:20

       Ooh.

   15. CWChris Williamson13:20

       So, he begs his colleagues to start adopting hand-washing, and he gets mocked by academia. He dies in an asylum. He dies in an asylum, that's how badly he's treated. Germ theory of disease gets, a couple of decades later, gets proven. Edward Snowden, who-

   16. JRJoe Rogan13:36

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson13:36

       ... you've spoken to.

   18. JRJoe Rogan13:36

       Sure.

   19. CWChris Williamson13:37

       Like, some people saw him as a traitor. Some people saw him as a truth-teller. But I think everybody had a bit of, "Really? Is that what's going on?" A few years later, it turns out, yep, the government are spying on you.

   20. JRJoe Rogan13:47

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson13:47

       I-

   22. JRJoe Rogan13:47

       100%.

   23. CWChris Williamson13:48

       And this Cassandra complex ... Y- so if somebody ever says, "I'm a Cassandra. I'm feeling like Cassandra today."

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:54

       Oh.

   25. CWChris Williamson13:54

       "I foresee this thing. You don't. You're not listening to me. It's a big deal."

   26. JRJoe Rogan14:00

       Right.

   27. CWChris Williamson14:00

       And the problem is the difference between somebody being a, a righteous Cassandra with the ability to see the future and just being a crazy person who's been convinced by bad data or, uh, like, perverse incentives, it's very hard to work out which one you are.

6. 14:19 – 20:33

   Climate debate pivot: pollution vs. carbon, perverse incentives, and flawed predictions

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:19

      Perverse incentives is the real word, because here's the thing, folks. We do have a horrible impact on the environment. It's factual. It's measurable. You can go see it. Um, there's many third world countries that have rivers that are completely clogged with garbage and plastic. That's real. If you're not trying to stop that, but you're railing about carbon, well, carbon is a weird thing, because carbon's essential to plant life. It's the, the ... There's more green on Earth today than there was 100 years ago, and that's because of our carbon emissions. That is an inconvenient truth.

   2. CWChris Williamson14:56

      Oh.

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:56

      All right? Fuck Al Gore. That's an inconvenient truth. So, carbon is a part of the equi... Is it good that we're burning stuff and putting it in the atmosphere? No, I do not think it is. No.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:04

      Hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:04

      I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that our impact on the environment that is tangible and disgusting is pollution. That's the impact on the environment.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:15

      Hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:15

      And if you're really thinking about our carbon footprint and carbon taxes and carbon incentives and car-, you got to follow the money. Like, what- what is happening here? Well, there's a bunch of green initiatives, and those green initiatives get funding, and they get funding to the tune of billions and billions of dollars. And if you know anything about any sort of nonprofit, like someone just pulled up some n- There's a, a nonprofit about animals, and they just released what a f- what a fucking scam it is. There's so many of these nonprofits where the vast majority of the money is going to salaries. Like, the- most of the money is going to salaries, and there's a tiny fraction of that money that gets allocated to whatever that cause is.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:57

      Which is why it justifies people who work for the organization to sustain the organization's existence-

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:04

      100%.

   10. CWChris Williamson16:04

       ... because that's the-

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:05

       100%.

   12. CWChris Williamson16:06

       ... interest.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:06

       But there's no data. Here's the thing. All of their predictions, all of the climate change predictions are totally inaccurate, every single one-

   14. CWChris Williamson16:16

       Interesting.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:16

       ... by all the doomsayers. So, you would think they would course correct. You would think they would say, "Okay, no one's arguing that the particulates that get emitted into the atmosphere by coal plants are not terrible for everyone. No one's arguing that glyphosate is good for you. No one's arguing that the poisons we're putting in rivers and streams, no one's arguing that's good for you. The stuff that gets into groundwater, no one says that's good. That's our real problem. Our real problem is pollution. It's fucking terrible. There's a real problem with waste. There's a real problem with landfills. All that's real."

   16. CWChris Williamson16:54

       Hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:54

       This carbon thing is a weird one. It's a, it's a weird one to concentrate on solely, because it seems to have an effect on the atmosphere. It has an effect on the temperature of Earth, but not what they're saying.

   18. CWChris Williamson17:09

       Can you think of a perverse incentive, other than people just want to keep their jobs? Is there something else af-

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:13

       Peop- It's people keeping their jobs. It's righteousness. It's virtue-signaling.

   20. CWChris Williamson17:17

       Hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:17

       And, and it's also the extraordinary amount of money that gets put into green initiatives. It also helps people campaign. When you're campaigning, if you say, "Climate change is real. We will follow the science," "Oh, thank God! You get my vote!" (laughs) That's what happens, and these fucking dumbasses just fall for it every time. It's, it's not that it's a real impending doom scenario. That's not real.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:47

       Hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:47

       It's not real. It's not real. But what is real is humans' impact on Earth. So, you got to figure out, why is this one thing ... Why are they concentrating so much on carbon-

   24. CWChris Williamson17:58

       Hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:58

       ... when it's not an- a measurable thing? It's not a thing where that you're- you're seeing this hugely detrimental effect by this one action that we have. Oh, because someone's trying to make money. That's it. No one's doing it for your own good. There's not a fucking single person on Earth that's involved in any of these big causes that's really concerned about us. No, they're all making money, and they're all ma... A- and if they're not...... making money other than their salary. If your salary is a million dollars a year to run a charity, maybe that charity is fucking horse shit. You know? Be- (laughs) 'Cause if you make a million dollars a year, you're rich as fuck. This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad Hard Seltzer. A nice cold Happy Dad is low carbonation, gluten-free, and is easy to drink. No bloating, no nonsense. When you are watching a football game, or you're golfing, watching a fight with your boys, or out on the lake, these moments call for a cold Happy Dad. People are drinking all these seltzers and skinny cans that are loaded with sugar, but Happy Dad only has one gram of sugar in a normal-sized can. You could buy Happy Dad on the Gopuff app and your local liquor and grocery store, including Walmart, Kroger, Total Wine, and Circle K. And you can't decide on a flavor? Grab a variety pack. Lemon lime, watermelon, pineapple, and wild cherry. They also have a grape flavor in collaboration with Death Row Records and Snoop Dogg. They have their new lemonade coming out as well. Visit happydad.com for a limited time offer and use code ROGAN to buy one Happy Dad trucker hat and get one free. Enjoy a cold Happy Dad. Must be of legal drinking age. Please drink responsibly. Happy Dad Hard Seltzer, Tea & Lemonade, is a malt alcohol located in Orange County, California.

   26. CWChris Williamson19:50

       What the argument would be, uh, in order to get somebody of the standard that you need to run this charity at the level that it needs to be run at, you need to give a competitive salary.

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:00

       What an amazing job they're doing where 95% of the money goes to overhead.

   28. CWChris Williamson20:05

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:05

       What an amazing job you've done in having zero progress-

   30. CWChris Williamson20:08

       Please show me your efficiency plans, the blueprint.
7. 20:33 – 26:09

   Energy realism and existential risk budgeting (AI, pandemics, nuclear)

   1. CWChris Williamson20:33

      Have you had Alex Epstein on? Do you know him?

   2. JRJoe Rogan20:35

      No, I don't know who that is.

   3. CWChris Williamson20:36

      Uh, the, the case-

   4. JRJoe Rogan20:36

      Have we had him on?

   5. CWChris Williamson20:37

      Moral case for fossil fuels.

   6. JRJoe Rogan20:39

      Oh, okay.

   7. CWChris Williamson20:39

      Interesting dude. Um, i- he has, like, one of the most interesting stats that I learned from him was climate-related deaths have decreased by 98% over the last century.

   8. JRJoe Rogan20:51

      Oh.

   9. CWChris Williamson20:51

      So one of the things that people don't consider when they look at the cost of, um, energy and energy production is that you need to be able to protect... More people are killed from heat than are killed from cold, and you need to protect from heat by using energy. And if you're gonna produce cheap energy, some, uh, byproducts are going to be spat out into the atmosphere, but the impact of the creation of the energy is way, uh, more effective at increasing human longevity than the side effect of the energy being made. Does that make sense?

   10. JRJoe Rogan21:20

       Totally rational.

   11. CWChris Williamson21:21

       Yeah. I-

   12. JRJoe Rogan21:22

       It seems like that would make sense. That makes logical sense.

   13. CWChris Williamson21:23

       Dude, I've had, I've had, um, uh, Richard Betts, director of the IPCC, Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, on the show, uh, Hannah Ritchie from Our World in Data. Like, I've really tried to get a good balance on all of this stuff. But Alex's position in that area, which is, it's a very luxury belief to hold, to talk about how green we must be in the West when you have access to unlimited energy. I think a billion people worldwide don't have access to, uh, reliable electricity. Like half a billion people are still using wood and dung in order to be able to produce their electricity. That was the data that he showed me the last time we spoke. That means that if you've got a baby that's on a, a, a ventilator, a newborn baby that needs to be put on... Like, that baby dies. That baby dies because that particular country does not have access to clean, uh, to cheap and reliable energy. Cleanness does not matter for these people.

   14. JRJoe Rogan22:19

       Yeah, I've heard that argument that the best result worldwide would be to increase the power supply to all these third world countries, and then you would have this ability to start manufacturing, doing a bunch of different things that we associate with the negative aspects of the West.

   15. CWChris Williamson22:35

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan22:35

       You know, the negative aspects of the West that cause pollution, that cause all these different things.

   17. CWChris Williamson22:39

       The problem is electricity's a real bastard to try and move. I think the, the entire grid has got eight minutes of battery backup.

   18. JRJoe Rogan22:48

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson22:48

       10 minutes of battery backup. It's so, it's so little and it's so cumbersome, and you lose it as you transport it further.

   20. JRJoe Rogan22:54

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson22:54

       And, uh, dude, I, I, I get it. Like, I, I really believe that existential risks, climate change included, are things that humans should pay attention to. But if you were to rank... Toby Ord wrote this great book called The Precipice, and he is from the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford. He wrote, uh, the best researchers in the world, he got them to rank what are the, uh, most dangerous existential risks to humans. And it's a one in 10,000 chance over the next century coming from climate change. It's one in six from AI, or one in 10 from AI, one in 10 from engineered pandemics, like one in 30 from natural pandemics. Uh, there's so many other huge issues that are really pressing. I'm not saying that climate change isn't a priority. I'm saying that if you were to rank the priorities, it actually starts to move pretty far down. And when you think, if people are worried about the future of the world, they have a worried-about-the-future-of-the-world budget to spend. Almost all of that is going on climate change. Jamie, can you try and get up... It's, it's, uh, a chart by Toby Ord. It's just called... If you search, like, uh, uh, The Precipice chart Toby Ord, you can bring it up. And you just think, "H- how much attention is being paid to all of these other things?" Like, how much attention is being paid... Uh, nuclear war, I guess, gets a, a, a little bit of attention, but slightly less so now. But natural pandemics, engineered pandemics, AGI, uh, these are big deals. And I, I worry that a lot of attention has been focused onto one actually relatively inconsequential, at least in the immediate term...

   22. JRJoe Rogan24:27

       That one?

   23. CWChris Williamson24:27

       No. Go back.

   24. JRJoe Rogan24:28

       (clears throat)

   25. CWChris Williamson24:28

       Do a, a Google search for me.... uh, top left. Yep, that's it. So, uh, nuclear war, one in 1,000. Climate change, one in 1,000. Other environmental damage, one in 1,000. Engineered pandemics, one in 30. Unaligned artificial intelligence, one in 10. Total, the total risk is one in six. But climate change is one in a thousand over the next 100 years. A stellar explosion, there you go. One in, what's that? A billion? That's what we need.

   26. JRJoe Rogan24:58

       Ooh, I don't like that one.

   27. CWChris Williamson24:59

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan25:00

       That one scares the shit out of me. St- I re- I remember a documentary I watched back in the day that was about hypernovas. And when they first started mea- measuring these gamma bursts in space, they thought that maybe alien races were at war with each other, because there's this enormous burst of energy and they realize it's stars-

   29. CWChris Williamson25:17

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan25:17

       ... going hypernova.
8. 26:09 – 37:54

   Toxic compassion and performative goodness in the social-media era

   1. CWChris Williamson26:09

      Uh, I mean, I, I'm e- kind of obsessed with this idea of toxic compassion, which I think is what you're talking about.

   2. JRJoe Rogan26:14

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson26:15

      So, uh, the prioritization of, like, short-term emotional comfort over everything else.

   4. JRJoe Rogan26:23

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson26:23

      And, uh, I remember Elon was talking, uh... A couple years ago, someone had accused him of contributing to climate change, so on and so forth. And he says, "I think I've done more to reduce climate change than any other human on the planet." That, "If you look at the EV revolution being started by Tesla, plus everything else from a technology perspective that we're doing, I think that there's an argument to be made that I've, uh, had a more positive impact on the future of the climate than any other human." But he said, "What I'm interested in is the reality of doing good, not appearing good."

   6. JRJoe Rogan26:55

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson26:55

      "And not appearing to do good while doing bad."

   8. JRJoe Rogan26:58

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson26:58

      And this... The opportunity people have to be able to look like they're doing good while not doing it is exactly where this toxic compassion thing leaks in. So, for instance, um, people will proclaim that body weight has no impact on health over a, uh, a long duration, even if this causes overweight individuals to not take their health as seriously and literally die sooner. But, "We're here. Joe, you don't understand. We're trying to be inclusive here. We're trying to be understanding of what's going on with these people." Uh, if someone was to say that a, uh, male athlete has no advantage in a, a sporting competition, uh, because, "Joe, we're trying to be inclusive, we're trying to be empathetic. We care about these people." Well, even if that's done at the exclusion of female athletes, right? People are prepared to show... They're prepared to do whatever is needed to appear good.

   10. JRJoe Rogan27:54

       Yes.

   11. CWChris Williamson27:55

       And the alternative, which i- it makes complete sense, who wants to do good while looking bad?

   12. JRJoe Rogan28:00

       Right. That's, the thing you're saying is so important. They, they will sacrifice everything to appear that they're doing good. That's, 'cause that's really what they're worried about. And that, that is all stemming, at least in part... I, I should say not stemming, but certainly accentuated by the social media world that we're living in now, 'cause everyone has this opportunity to appear like they're something other than they are. They're using filters, they're standing in front of a leased car, there's all, all the above. They're doing things, they're wearing cheap f- cheap fake jewelry. They're trying to look like something they're not-

   13. CWChris Williamson28:35

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan28:35

       ... and there's a culture of that. And there's also a culture that that gets, "Well, I'm not one of those, 'cause I don't care about material goods, but I'm really interested in climate change." And so then, you know, you join up with whatever fucking climate change group that's yelling and shouting, and you carry a sign, and you do all these things that you're supposed to do, and you, you get free water. The whole thing is just, it's, uh, it's a psychological game that people are playing with themselves to try to appear that they're special and to be in competition or in battle with the other side, you know? But if you're, if you're in battle with people that are saying, um, "Hey, none of these models are correct. Hey, none of these predictions have come to bear. N- zero, not a single one-"

   15. CWChris Williamson29:19

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan29:19

       ... where they say, "The sea level's gonna rise. There's gonna be no more Miami." Nothing, not a fucking thing has happened.

   17. CWChris Williamson29:25

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan29:25

       Like, you're wrong. Okay? So we need to figure out what's right. If we can all agree that if we're doing something bad to the planet and it's somehow or another avoidable, let's work towards that. But if you're telling me we're doing something bad at the planet, and then when I say, "Well, show me," and you can't. "Well, what about all these predictions?" "Well, they're wrong." "Well, what about al- that movie that every- got everybody..." "Well, it was totally inaccurate." Okay, well, you can't use that on your side anymore.

   19. CWChris Williamson29:52

       I never saw that movie. What, what, w- wha- wha- what-

   20. JRJoe Rogan29:54

       Ah, it was so bad.

   21. CWChris Williamson29:55

       What were the claims?

   22. JRJoe Rogan29:55

       An Inconvenient Truth? Oh, let's find out. Put into Perplexity what the, uh, incorrect... (laughs)

   23. GUGuest30:01

       I just, I was already asking, "What, what did it get right and what did it get wrong?"

   24. JRJoe Rogan30:04

       Yeah. What did it say?

   25. GUGuest30:06

       It's typing it up right now.

   26. JRJoe Rogan30:07

       Oh, it gets fucking... I guarantee you they didn't get nothing wrong or they didn't get nothing right.

   27. GUGuest30:12

       Do you wanna... Which one do you wanna start with, right or wrong?

   28. JRJoe Rogan30:14

       Um, what are the, the predictions for cata- catastrophic events? What did it get wrong about the predictions for catastrophic events?

   29. GUGuest30:21

       It's just, uh...

   30. JRJoe Rogan30:22

       Traditions that were incorrect. Rapid sea level rise, 20 feet. The film depicted a potential sea level rise of up to 20 feet, six meters, in the near future from the collapse of Greenland or West Antarctic ice sheets. While this extreme scenario is considered possible over centuries or millennia, scientific consensus does not support this happening imminently. Current rates are much slower, even with acceleration. Uh, reaching 20 feet would take many centuries. Uh, another one, Mount Kilimanjaro glacier melt caused by global warming. Goll attributed the shrinking of Kilimanjaro's glaciers mainly to global warming, but later research points to other major causes like sublim- sublimation and reduced snowfall, unrelated primarily to temperature. Uh, impression of imminent chaos. The film often implies that catastrophic outcomes, like rapid ice sheet collapse and dramatic sea level rise, might occur within decades, when in reality such processes are expected to take much longer, often centuries or more. And then legal findings. A U- a UK court found nine errors of exaggerations in the film, mostly involving a lack of clarity on timescales or oversimplified at- attributions, like Kilimanjaro.
9. 37:54 – 47:11

   Groupthink, foreign influence, and the social-media attention ecosystem

   1. JRJoe Rogan37:54

      Do you think that social media and the influence of other people's opinions, it makes someone more likely to be able to think for themselves or less likely? Like, more likely to be able to examine preconceived notions, recognize like, "Oh my God. Maybe I'm biased or maybe it's just, like, a group bias that I- I've accepted because of all the people around me, and I'm- I'm- I think I'm- I think this is wrong, and I think this is what I think is really going on."

   2. CWChris Williamson38:25

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan38:25

      Or do you think it encourages that kind of thinking or discourages it?

   4. CWChris Williamson38:31

      I think it certainly encourages groupthink, very much so. Uh-

   5. JRJoe Rogan38:34

      But both, right?

   6. CWChris Williamson38:36

      Uh, it would open up the opportunity for some people with a very unique psychological profile-

   7. JRJoe Rogan38:41

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson38:42

      ... to be able to step back against it.

   9. JRJoe Rogan38:43

      Black helicopters.

   10. CWChris Williamson38:44

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan38:45

       Yeah, there's a few guys out there I can think of. (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson38:48

       (laughs) Um, but I think, on average, what you're seeing is basically this huge big swath of people, for the first time ever, you're able to aggregate, um, just how much support or criticism something has.

   13. JRJoe Rogan39:00

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson39:01

       You know, this is what like to dislike ratios are. This is what upvote to downvotes are on Reddit.

   15. JRJoe Rogan39:05

       Right, right.

   16. CWChris Williamson39:06

       And, um, I- I think that that- that causes people... M- most people don't want to have to do the thinking of coming up with an original opinion. I'm sure that most of mine aren't original, but given the fact that doing the original thinking is hard, most of the culture war is actually two armies of puppets being ventriloquized by a handful of actual thinkers.

   17. JRJoe Rogan39:24

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson39:24

       Most people are just being brought along and pushed along by people who came up with an idea, and they're assuming, "Well, we- we've done, we know, we- we know this for a fact." Well, it's interesting because both sides know for a fact the thing that the other side says is a lie, so that can't be true. Um, see, I- I get the sense that it causes people to, uh, adhere to the crowd, uh, more, more than they would have done previously.

   19. JRJoe Rogan39:48

       And you also have to think that if you're spending that much time on it, like six hours a day, it's one of the primary influences of your life, probably more so than any other media in the past, because it was very rare as a child that you would listen to six hours of the news.

   20. CWChris Williamson40:04

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan40:04

       You wouldn't really be indoctrinated into six hours of whatever the latest cultural dilemma was or the latest social issue was. You wouldn't get that much of it. You'd get people talking about it, like normal people do during the day, or maybe you'd be talking about a newspaper article you read, but you're not getting six hours of it all day long. But now we are, at least six hours. I mean, what is the ave- let's find that out. What's the average number of hours a 18-year-old kid is on social media? Let's guess.

   22. CWChris Williamson40:31

       I would guess it's at least, I would gue- uh, social media, maybe four, but s-

   23. JRJoe Rogan40:34

       Or their phone, let's just say their phone, screen time.

   24. CWChris Williamson40:36

       Like scr- screen time, at least six, probably more.

   25. JRJoe Rogan40:39

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson40:39

       At least six, probably more. And the mad thing to consider here is your parasocial relationships, people... Think about this, people will listen to your show and listen to my show more than they see their parents weekly.

   27. JRJoe Rogan40:51

       Oh, yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson40:52

       By- by a huge margin.

   29. JRJoe Rogan40:53

       Huge margin.

   30. CWChris Williamson40:54

       And th-
10. 47:11 – 59:15

    Free speech, censorship, and ‘mal-information’ after Twitter/X and the COVID era

    1. JRJoe Rogan47:11

       Well, it just appears that they want total complete control over what people say over there and that they don't want criticism of the government and criticism about immigration and criticism about, you know, fill in the blank. They don't want it. And the best way to stop that is to keep everybody scared, make everybody self-censor.

    2. CWChris Williamson47:30

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan47:30

       What's the best way to make everybody self-censor? Put a bunch of fucking people in jail. So last year, what, was it 12,000? 12,000 people got arrested for social media posts?

    4. CWChris Williamson47:39

       Uh-huh. Supposedly more than Russia, although the Russian-

    5. JRJoe Rogan47:41

       A lot more than Russia.

    6. CWChris Williamson47:41

       ... the Russian stats might not be, uh... (laughs)

    7. JRJoe Rogan47:44

       Yeah. (laughs) Well, they didn't arrest them. They just shot them in the face. (laughs)

    8. CWChris Williamson47:47

       (laughs)

    9. JRJoe Rogan47:47

       They don't count that.

    10. CWChris Williamson47:48

        Gulag, gulag for you.

    11. JRJoe Rogan47:49

        Yeah. They just kill folks over there. But yeah, it's really bad. It's really bad, and it just doesn't seem very progressive. It doesn't seem like you're moving towards the future. It's not progress. Like, this, we figured out a long time ago that free speech is very important to figure out what's right and what's wrong. And when you suppress people's speech, you can get away with a lot of fucking horrible things-

    12. CWChris Williamson48:13

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JRJoe Rogan48:13

        ... because you stop people from being able to protest it. You know, and in a small part, we saw a lot of that during the pandemic. And, you know, and you, you see what, what the consequences of that are. You, you can't trust people that want power. You just can't.

    14. CWChris Williamson48:28

        What do you mean?

    15. JRJoe Rogan48:29

        Well, anybody that wants any kind of control over a group of people. If you wanna control what they say, if you wanna control where they go, you wanna put them in 15-minute cities, like, you can't trust that because the natural inclination when someone has power is to never let it go.... and to ramp it up.

    16. CWChris Williamson48:46

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan48:46

        They're in the power business. If you're in the power business, you don't wanna keep making the same amount of money every year. You wanna... You don't wanna have the same power every year. That's boring, right? Like, if you're an insurance salesman, you wanna be the fucking employee of the month. You wanna make more money next year. You got your eyes on a new Lexus.

    18. CWChris Williamson49:01

        (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan49:01

        You're trying to make more. You're not trying to stay maintained. That's not the game you're in.

    20. CWChris Williamson49:06

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan49:06

        And if you're in the power game, and if you're in the game of enacting new laws in order to... We need safety. Safety. Under the guise of safety, you can get so much evil shit done. And if you start doing that, you're not gonna say, "You know what, guys? We were... That safety bill, we were really wrong, and what's really important is discourse. What's really important is that maybe I wonder why you think the way you think, and, you know, maybe part of this polarization process is, uh, not enabling us to see valid points the other side has. Let's all come together and talk about this as reasonable human beings." Th- It's... No, that's not what they're gonna do. They're gonna just f- come up with more fucking reasons to put you in a cage.

    22. CWChris Williamson49:45

        (laughs)

    23. JRJoe Rogan49:47

        They want you to shut the fuck up 'cause they wanna make more, they wanna have more, they wanna get more power. They wanna be the best leader.

    24. CWChris Williamson49:53

        Mm-hmm.

    25. JRJoe Rogan49:54

        They wanna be the most powerful leader.

    26. CWChris Williamson49:56

        Isn't that a ruthless part of human nature, that trajectory is more important than position? Jimmy Carr taught me this. Um, so your industry, imagine that you're the, uh, 250th best comedian in the world. Let's imagine there's a ranking. Uh, and last year, you were the, uh, 300th.

    27. JRJoe Rogan50:11

        Mm-hmm.

    28. CWChris Williamson50:13

        You are in a more psychologically preferable position than somebody who's number two in the world, but last year was number one.

    29. JRJoe Rogan50:21

        Right.

    30. CWChris Williamson50:21

        This sense that humans have of, where am I now compared to where I was previously?
11. 59:15 – 1:13:35

    Trans inclusion conflicts in sports and prisons: rules, deception, and fairness

    1. CWChris Williamson59:15

       Like whether or not you should win a fucking world's woman strong lifting strongman powered woman competition.

    2. JRJoe Rogan59:21

       (laughs) That just happened, I thought we were done with that. It just happened.

    3. CWChris Williamson59:26

       Well, do you know why it was able to happen, is because that person lied. That person lied about their sex.

    4. JRJoe Rogan59:33

       Oh, interesting.

    5. CWChris Williamson59:35

       Jamie, can you try and, uh, pull up an image of the current 2025 World's Strongest Woman winner, please?

    6. JRJoe Rogan59:45

       (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson59:45

       Um, just for clarity, Mitchell Hooper, that is the world's strongest man, Canadian dude, he's 6'3", 330. The person who won Woman's Strongest Man is 6'4" and 400 pounds. She makes the current World's Strongest Man look- (laughs) look like an infant.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

       Oh, world's strongest woman wins, stripped of title after organizers discover she was born a man.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:00:10

       That was an hour ago, dude.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:11

        Okay, so an hour ago they stripped her?

    11. CWChris Williamson1:00:13

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:13

        Is that the person?

    13. CWChris Williamson1:00:14

        Yep. Jamie Buker, disqualified-

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:17

        So, that's a man?

    15. CWChris Williamson1:00:18

        Uh...

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

        Are you sure?

    17. CWChris Williamson1:00:20

        Y- It appears the athlete who is biologically male and now identifies as female competed in the Women's Open- Open category, uh, they were unaware of this fact ahead of the competition and have been urgently investigated. I wanna know what urgent investigation is-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:32

        Interesting. They went on Twitter. (laughs)

    19. CWChris Williamson1:00:34

        (laughs) Uh, what-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:00:35

        They did a se- So, that's- that's a biological male, that's interesting.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:00:38

        Correct.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:00:39

        It looks like just a big lady.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:00:40

        Had we been aware or had this been declared at any point before or during the competition, this athlete would not have been permitted to compete in the Women's Open category. The move comes after runner-up, uh, Andrea Thompson, British, hey, uh, was filmed storming off the podium as she raged about the bullshit decision to award the title. So, the other com- uh, competitors evidently knew.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:00:57

        Oh, okay. So Thompson is now the winner, so UK gets the gold.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:01:01

        Bro, I think- I think about this so much when it comes to sporting competitions, and it's not just with the- the- the trans thing, although this is a huge deal and I did think that we'd kind of got past it.How horrible is it to be the person who won, but had that moment, the podium moment, stolen from you-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

        Yeah. Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:01:21

        ... by somebody? I think there's a, a weightlifting, w- Olympics, uh, w- weightlifting championship final where currently, like, the 11th place finisher is now first because each person has progressively got popped for PEDs.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:35

        (laughs)

    29. CWChris Williamson1:01:35

        Number one did, then number two did, then number three did. It's like-

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

        Oh.
12. 1:13:35 – 1:26:30

    Jake Paul vs. Anthony Joshua: mismatches, incentives, and Saudi ‘infinity money’

    1. NANarrator1:13:35

       What do you think about Jake Paul-Anthony Joshua?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:13:38

       (inhales deeply) Boy. Um... Well, realistically, it's one of the craziest propositions of all time. You take a guy who just had a boxing match that looks like a sparring match with, uh, 58-year-old Mike Tyson. And then you're gonna fight one of the absolute scariest knockout artists-

    3. NANarrator1:14:03

       (laughs)

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:14:03

       ... in the heavyweight division. Maybe we should watch the Francis Ngannou fight. So you could see... Let's watch that real quick. Just so you can see what Anthony Joshua is capable if he's fighting someone that's not in his league. Okay, look, he, Usyk beat him, and he beat him twice. And Andy Ruiz caught him in the first fight and, and dropped him, and stopped him. It was spectacular. Andy Ruiz is super fucking talented. Usyk is perhaps the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time. Maybe one of the, maybe, uh, maybe one of the greatest of all time in any weight class. Usyk. You know? And Usyk beat him, and he beat him twice. But Francis Ngannou is coming off of this fight with... Like, go a little bit before that so we can see this happen.

    5. NANarrator1:14:49

       Sure do.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:14:49

       Watch this.

    7. NANarrator1:14:50

       I mean, there's highlights, but you can't watch the whole fight.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:14:51

       So, he dr- he drops him with a right hand early. And, uh, this is, like, uh, two minutes into the first round. And Francis gets up, he survives. And then Joshua, check out this, this combination he hits him with. I mean, dude, the speed that he hits him with this? He's so dangerous, man. It's like you're dealing with a guy who's an Olympic gold medalist, and he's enormous, and he's got vicious knockout power, and he's got immense amount of experience at world-class levels. Just think about what we said earlier. Fought Usyk twice. Fought Andy Ruiz twice.

    9. GUGuest1:15:38

       Heavy.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:15:39

        Oh, man. Bro, the timing in that right hand, just spectacular.

    11. NANarrator1:15:45

        That's exciting as well.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:15:46

        Pictacular. Over the top. I mean, that was a full force shot to the temple. I mean, he's, he's fucked still right now. So, they wipe off his gloves, but you look at him, like he's, he's really feeling it right now. I mean, he probably has no idea where he is. And Anthony Joshua-

    13. NANarrator1:16:02

        Oh, my God.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:16:04

        ... flat-lined him.

    15. NANarrator1:16:04

        Absolutely folded in half.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:16:05

        Watch. Back that up again. Watch this. I mean, just steps into it with every ounce of his body. Perfect right hand.

    17. NANarrator1:16:15

        (imitates wind blowing)

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:16:15

        So, the fact that Jake Paul wants to fight that guy, hey, I'll watch.

    19. NANarrator1:16:20

        (laughs)

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:16:21

        I'm gonna watch. I'm definitely gonna watch. So, you got me there. And if you wanna show you're legit, uh, by taking on one of the scariest fucking heavyweights alive-

    21. NANarrator1:16:31

        Can you get the tape, the tape of the, of, uh, Paul and Joshua?

    22. GUGuest1:16:34

        I was gonna say, he has to... They got him to weigh a grade of 245. That's only, like, seven pounds less.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:16:39

        Yeah, that's nothing.

    24. GUGuest1:16:40

        Yeah, that's nothing much.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:16:40

        But, and there's some sort of a rehydration clause. Listen, kids, it ain't gonna matter. You know, there's not a chance that Anthony Joshua is not going to just lose the weight beforehand. He's not gonna come in drained. What he's gonna do is just do extra cardio, and that's just gonna make him more dangerous. He's gonna be terrifying, and he's gonna have a lot to prove. He's gonna be very angry that Jake Paul wants to fight him.

    26. NANarrator1:17:02

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:17:02

        Very upset that this YouTuber who's fought Tommy Fury, who's a, a legit boxer, and, you know, a couple other guys that were legit boxers. That's it. Like, everyone else he's fought, he's fought Ben Askren, who's really a wrestler. You know, he fought Tyron Woodley, who's an elite MMA fighter, but, you know, not an elite boxer. He fought Nate Robinson, who was a basketball player. At least, he's fought these guys. He fought Anderson Silva, and he dropped Anderson Silva, and Anderson Silva's a really good striker. But also in his 40s, you know, different time. It's... You know, not the same guy he used to be. This is, this, this is a 34-year-old Anthony Joshua. This is a terrifying human being. Terrifying. Again, a guy who survived Usyk twice. You know, you saw what Usyk did to Dubois? You see Usyk take out Dubois? Did you see that?

    28. NANarrator1:17:48

        Mm-hmm.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:17:48

        That's the Usyk you're talking about. This is the Usyk that rocked, um, Tyson Fury, who's a fucking 6'9".

    30. NANarrator1:17:54

        So, S- Jake Paul's 6'1".

Episode duration: 2:49:20