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Joe Rogan Experience #2425 - Ethan Hawke

Ethan Hawke is an actor, filmmaker, and author. He recently starred in the film “Blue Moon,” available on major streaming platforms and in select theaters, and the FX series “The Lowdown,” available for streaming on HULU. https://bluemoonfilm.com/home/ https://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/the-lowdown https://linktr.ee/ethanhawke Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/joerogan Get Gameday Deals all season long only on Uber Eats. Order Now.

Joe RoganhostEthan Hawkeguest
Dec 11, 20252h 21mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:14

    Ethan Hawke’s first spark: acting class at 12 and a real stage production

    1. JR

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays)

    2. EH

      Nathan Hawke, ladies and gentlemen.

    3. JR

      Nice to meet you. (laughs) Great to meet you, man. Mm-hmm. It's weird when you see someone in so many fucking movies and then you meet them in real life. You're like, "Okay, just a regular person, right there."

    4. EH

      Yeah, staring me in the face.

    5. JR

      Yeah, right there.

    6. EH

      He just took a leak, yeah. (laughs)

    7. JR

      (laughs) Um, dude, you've been in some fucking banger movies, man. It's like, you've had an incredible career.

    8. EH

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      Pull that sucker, uh, pull that microphone up, yeah.

    10. EH

      Yeah, like, pull it towards me?

    11. JR

      Yeah, just r-

    12. EH

      All right, very good. Yeah, it's been a long, strange trip.

    13. JR

      It's been a wild one, huh?

    14. EH

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      When did you start acting? How old were you?

    16. EH

      All right. So, um, like, 12 years old, I don't have a winter sport. My mother doesn't know what to do with me, and, uh, my next door neighbor, he lived, like, four houses down, and he took an acting class at the Paul Robeson Center of Performing Arts. And so, my mother signed me up so that I could get picked up by his mom, you know, taken to acting class in the winter and get dropped off, you know, and be at home. And I went there, and this head of a local theater company came by to teach an improv seminar, kind of thing. I'm 12 years old, right? And afterwards, in the parking lot, he said, um, "Hey, you wanna be in a play?" I said, "What do you mean?" He says, "I got a part of a guy who's a knight. He gets to, you get to have a sword." And I said, "Will I have any lines?" He said, "You'll have one line." I said, "All right, cool." And I asked my mom, and she said, "Do I have to pay?" You know? (laughs)

    17. JR

      (laughs)

    18. EH

      And I said, "I don't think so. I think they're gonna pay me." So I went and I did this play, and it was George Bernard Shaw's Saint Joan at the McCarter Theatre in New Jersey. And-

    19. JR

      Oh, it's a real play.

    20. EH

      Yeah, it was a, it was a proper play.

    21. JR

      Wow.

    22. EH

      And it was an incredible experience, to be honest with you, because my parents hated their jobs, you know? They would go to work, and their life happened on the periphery of their employment.

    23. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. EH

      You know, my mom would take the train to New York, and so she wouldn't get home till 7:30 something. She would leave at dawn. And, um, she was just miserable, uh, at work, I mean. And, um, I went to this rehearsal and everyone was having, they were talking about whether or not God existed. They were talking about what they believed in. They would dress up in these crazy outfits, and then we did the play, and they got a standing ovation. And it was, uh, it was so much fun. And I, it was the first time I saw, it was like, "This, you could do this for a living?"

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. EH

      Uh, you know, a lot of the, the actors aren't people you've heard of or anything like that, but they were real actors and they loved their job. And the rehearsal room was so kind of thrilling watching them figure out where people should stand and when, what was important and what was the scene about and what was the theme of the play and how could this scene fit in with the larger context? And, um, and I just decided that's what I wanted to do. And a lot of kids wanna act, so that doesn't mean very much. But I... Through this other friend of mine, I started hearing about open casting calls in New York,

  2. 3:14 – 6:44

    Teen Hollywood baptism: 'Explorers,' River Phoenix, and the child-actor whirl

    1. EH

      and I asked my mom if I could go on some of these big auditions. And again, she said, "Does, is it gonna cost me any money?" She said if I paid for my own train fare, I could go to these auditions. And so, I took some Polaroids and, uh, went on a few of these big auditions, and I got one of them. And it was for this big, in 1984, it was a $30 million movie directed by the guy who'd just done Gremlins, right? Joe Dante. And I thought I was a made man. I mean, it was just, it was eng- It was absolutely incredible to be sucked out of suburban America and brought to LA. My first scene partner was River Phoenix, and all of a sudden-

    2. JR

      Whoa.

    3. EH

      ... um, I'm in LA and, you know, my mom couldn't quit her job or anything, so my mom had a really, uh, turbulent relationship with her mother. But her mother, her mother and she didn't really know each other, and so her mother said she'd be my guardian. And my mom designed this as a way to maybe have a family healing, but my grandmother was, um, a piece of work. (laughs)

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. EH

      And, uh, we lived together in Koreatown. That's what they called it and, um, it was wild. And she... I remember we drove into Paramount Studios, you know, you can picture it, the image from The Godfather and you had the big gates, and my grandmother had always wanted to be a movie star.

    6. JR

      Wow.

    7. EH

      You know? And she had, she was from here, she's from Austin, Texas. Well, really Fort Worth, but you know, she would talk about going to see Gone with the Wind at the Paramount here in Austin, you know, and she would, she would watch Gone with the Wind y- you know, three times a week. Uh, and she had dreamed of being a movie star. And I remember we were in a big van driving me to set the first day, and we went through the gates of Paramount opening up and she was smoking an EVE cigarette in the van, of course, it's 1984, and she's just like, "My first time in Hollywood as a fucking guardian." (imitates explosion) You know?

    8. JR

      Whoa.

    9. EH

      (laughs) And, uh, and so, the whole child actor thing is, was a trip and I finished the movie and there's a lot of drama, um, involved in the, if I was to complete that story. But I finished it. The movie was a big turkey.

    10. JR

      How old were you at the time?

    11. EH

      14.

    12. JR

      Whoa.

    13. EH

      River and I were both 14. We st-

    14. JR

      Look at you.

    15. EH

      Uh, yeah. But see, we look so young in that-

    16. JR

      Whoa.

    17. EH

      ... picture, right? But you gotta understand, you know, when you're that age, you think, you're dying to be 18, dying to be 16. We went off, River and I stole a pack of Camel cigarettes because we both wanted to be like James Dean.

    18. JR

      (laughs)

    19. EH

      And, um, uh, and we had a, we had a lot of fun, um, that's the truth. But the movie came out, and I remember River and I going to the bathroom at the premiere and, um-... we had grown a lot from the time we shot the movie to the time it came out, and nobody in the bathroom really recognized us. And they were all talking about what a turkey the, the movie was (laughs) -

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. EH

      ... and how terrible it was. And I remember just looking them in the eyes, I'm like, "It, it wasn't the narrative we thought..." You know, we, we had bought into the dream that, you know, we were gonna be whatever teen icon we were thinking of at the time. And, um, and it died a quick and salty death, my dream, and I went back to high school, and put away my dream of being an actor. It, it seemed like it was this isolated, uh, almost like Choose Your Own Adventure book or something, uh, where

  3. 6:44 – 10:39

    Rebooting the dream: Dead Poets Society, dropping out, and learning to love the craft

    1. EH

      I got to see what Hollywood was like, but then have it denied any... It kinda, like putting your hand in a flame, I, it was not a good feeling when it was over. And then, you know, four years or so went by, and I graduated high school, and I was off at college, and I heard about these auditions for a m- movie called Dead Poets Society. And I hated college. I was miserable, and I thought, "I'll take the bus in, and I'll go on one of these open casting calls again. And, and if I get the part, uh..." This is what I decided, "If I get the part, I'll, I'll do that. And if I don't get the part, I'll join the Merchant Marines and be like Jack London." Or, that, that was my fantasy at the time.

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. EH

      I can remember, I remember calling my sister and saying, "All right, there's seven parts." This is how dumb I was, I was like, "There's seven parts. If I don't get one of those, I must suck." You know? So, which is not true at all, but I ended up getting one of them. And, um, and I dropped out of college, and the, the success of Dead Poets Society sent me th- this, you know, it was like a trajectory of j- it shot me down a different r- course of water than I was on before.

    4. JR

      That's probably a much better path than the first film being successful, and you become a child star.

    5. EH

      I cannot tell you how grateful I am for that first experience. First of all, if for no other reason than in the success of Dead Poets Society, I didn't take it seriously at all. I didn't even realize that the movie was successful until a couple years later, because I had so braced myself for failure. You know, perception of failure, anyway.

    6. JR

      Because of the first experience?

    7. EH

      Yeah, 'cause everybody's saying, "Oh, the movie's so great." I'm like, "Yeah, they said this last time. This doesn't mean anything." You know? And, um, so it kinda taught me at a really young age about, to ask yourself why you're doing something. You know, like, are you doing it for the result of what happens, or are you doing it to do it? And I, by coming back to acting a few years later, I, I was just fully braced for it not to go well, and it was still gonna be worth it. And, and so I think I, it gave me a, a slight bit of ballast to handle the success of Dead Poets-

    8. JR

      You went into it for the enjoyment of doing it, rather than thinking you were gonna be a star.

    9. EH

      I just hadn't... Yeah, I had no expectations, but I was certain I wasn't going to be a star. I was positive of it. I saw it as a way to make some money, and maybe learn about writing, and learn about film, and a way to get out of college. Now, what happened is when I got there, I met all these other young men who were in love with acting, and that, I would start watching movies with them, and talking about movies with them, and seeing the light in their eyes. And we'd go to set, and there was Robin Williams. You know, we had Peter Weir, who had just directed Witness, one of my favorite movies of all time at that point. And he was a master. I mean, he was not a, um, lightweight human being. He was a heavyweight human being. And he would lead rehearsals, and he would talk about acting and performance in a way that I hadn't... Well, you know, I heard people talk about it that way when we were doing Saint Joan, when I was doing the... Like, he talked about it like we were making art, and like we were on a mission beyond success or failure. And it was, it w- it was an invitation to a lifestyle, a life commitment. And what I didn't realize at the time, that's what that movie's about too.

    10. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. EH

      You know, so the movie itself is a guided meditation on carpe diem, right? It's, it's a meditation on gather ye rosebuds while ye may. I sound my barbaric yawp over the rooftops of the world. You know, this is the kind of stuff that I was getting, uh, inundated with in rehearsal.

    12. JR

      Right.

    13. EH

      Uh, and so that was... I didn't, I wouldn't have told you that on the day I wrapped Dead Poets Society that my life had changed, but looking back, it had.

    14. JR

      It had planted the seeds.

    15. EH

      Yeah, yeah.

  4. 10:39 – 18:30

    The danger of early fame and building a “normal” foundation

    1. JR

      I was thinking, uh, I, I've never met a person who became famous at 14 who came out of it okay. Um, I've yet to. I heard Jodie Foster's cool. (laughs) I've just n- never met anybody that became famous very young.

    2. EH

      You haven't been... I read every interview she does for exactly that reason. Um, I have, it's, it's so difficult. I tell parents all the time, like, "Children acting is a wonderful thing. Put them in the school play, it's so good for them. Get them singing lessons, it's so good for them. Sing in the church choir, it's so good for them." Um, but to be a professional actor at a young age is, um, this, it, it's dangerous in extremely insidious ways that are very, very hard to perceive when it's happening.

    3. JR

      That's a great way to put it. Yeah, it's, it, I think it completely impedes your developmental process. And the way I, I liken it to is, like concrete. When you make concrete, there's a bunch of very specific ingredients. You put them with very specific mixture. Like, you have to have this amount of water, that amount of sand, this amount of rocks, all those... If it's off, it's never fixed. You can't add water after it's cured. It's done. It's fucked forever. This is bad concrete now. And this is what happens to a lot of young human beings that become famous, whether it's through acting or singing or-

    4. EH

      And it, and yeah, and it's not just fame. That analogy works for all walks of life, really. You know, if, if you have a really, uh, something...... really traumatic happens in childhood, it's very hard to recover. It's a tremendous amount of work to recover. And I agree with you, like, I think celebrity is like, it's like a tiny drop of mercury, or, it's poison.

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. EH

      It's poison for your brain. Now, if you're mature, you can handle it, and if you get it in slow inc-, like, I got it in slow increments. Dead Poets Society happened, I had a little taste of fame, but I wasn't... Nobody knew my name. I was-

    7. JR

      You could go to restaurants.

    8. EH

      Yeah, I was that kid from Dead Poets Society. "Oh, look at him. Yeah. Blah, blah, blah." And I got it in slow... I got to develop, what do you, what do you call it when you're, you get a little bit of pois-, uh, like a, a-

    9. JR

      Resistance.

    10. EH

      Yeah, resistance to it.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. EH

      Um, and, uh, it, it, it came so slowly for me. I even think about people... I remember the weekend Pretty Woman came out, two days before, no one had ever heard of Julia Roberts. Two days afterwards, she was the most famous per- woman in America. I think that's a huge thing to absorb. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Um, and I know that my personality couldn't have handled it. Um, I've, I've worked hard to handle w-, as poorly or wellly as I have, you know?

    13. JR

      Yeah. It's... I think you going back to school and living a normal life for, you know, five, six years or whatever it was before you left college, that's, I just think that's critical. That's the developmental process of the normal maturation of a person when they go through adolescence, teenage years, into college, young adult. Then you can kinda handle things.

    14. EH

      (laughs)

    15. JR

      And then, maybe you're for- also fortunate that, like you said, Dead Poets Society not... You know, you didn't get too huge from it. You just got some, some juice. A little bit of juice.

    16. EH

      A little bit of confidence. That was ni-

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. EH

      You know, it's like-

    19. JR

      Something's happening.

    20. EH

      Something's happening, but then I had the years after that. Though, you know, m- I have to give some, a shout-out to my mom, who was just so devastated that I dropped out of college. I mean, she just couldn't stop crying about it, you know?

    21. JR

      Oh.

    22. EH

      Um, and it filled me with a, uh, desire to show her that I was taking responsibility for my own education, which is what I said I would do, and so I started a theater company. And I, I worked really hard at a lot of different things, writing and reading and thinking, and mostly with this theater company where I met a lot of young people who were interested in what I was doing. But we weren't paid any money, and we worked our asses off, and we built sets, and we... Y- you know, it, it was fun. I don't wanna lie. We had a great time. But it was a college experience that I gave myself through this theater company, and that changed me 'cause I met a lot of people who were really excellent at what I do that weren't making a lot of money. I met a lot of people who loved it as much as I do who weren't getting their picture taken, who weren't being told they were special. I knew how gifted they were. I could understand... I had a little bit of balance and a little bit of humility to go along with the superficial elements of, of my chosen field.

    23. JR

      Hmm. Hmm. Is, do you ever think about, like, what would've happened if that guy didn't invite you to do that play when you were 12? It's kind of crazy how there's these pivotal moments in your life...

    24. EH

      You know, he just died. Nagle Jackson was his name, and he's, he was a great theater director. I mean, the... I don't know if you feel this way. I, I don't know what... I have the sense often, and I know this just sounds really dopey to say, but I sometimes have a sense of a guardian angel of some kind, of, "Why did this guy talk to me in the parking lot? And why was he such a kind, decent human being?" Um, throughout my life, I have had opportunities presented to me, and I had enough intuition and enough, uh, intelligence, maybe, to follow it. But I do think about it. I think about it all the time, uh, all the ways that are imperceptible on the Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday that they happen, but where your life is kind of guided.

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. EH

      Um, and it doesn't really feel by your own doing.

    27. JR

      Yeah. I know it sounds wacky to say, but I believe it, too. I mean, I don't publicly profess it as the definite reason why everything happens. But there's a bunch of... I think most people that have gotten anywhere in life, there's moments in their life they're like, "How did that happen? Like, what... why did this feel like it was a, a destined path? Like, why, why was I compelled to try this? What was the, what was the thought behind that? And what, am I, am I being guided? Is there f- is fate real?"

    28. EH

      I wonder how other people feel, but I do think one of the keys... I think that probably everybody has a path that is there for them. And the trick about knowing yourself, the value in taking time to, like, be still with yourself and listen to yourself, you know that there's an expression, "The voice of our spirit is extremely gentle." Uh, and it's, it's difficult to hear it.

    29. JR

      Hmm.

    30. EH

      It's qui- it's quiet.

  5. 18:30 – 20:03

    Ad break: AG1 sponsorship

    1. JR

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  6. 20:03 – 24:34

    Ethan’s mom’s second act: Peace Corps, Romania, and finding purpose later in life

    1. EH

      So she was 18 when I was born, right?

    2. JR

      Mm.

    3. EH

      So that's, that's tough. You don't really have a childhood, right?

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. EH

      And, but in her mid 40s, she took it. She joined the Peace Corps in her mid 40s, after I, you know, uh, once I was okay. And it was right around the time my oldest, Maya, was born. She-

    6. JR

      Are you single s- single child?

    7. EH

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I was a big part of her, on her brain a lot, w- worrying. It was a big, "I- is this kid gonna be all right? Is this kid gonna be all right?"

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. EH

      It makes a lot of noise in your head, you know.

    10. JR

      Sure.

    11. EH

      And, um, and I was all right. And she looked around, and I remember her saying that, "You know, if, if an accident happened today, when they do happen, and I died, I would be extremely disappointed in myself." She was probably f- I don't know, 46 or something when she said this, younger than I am now. And, um, and she said, "I don't want to be disappointed in my life." So she joined the Peace Corps, which she wasn't all that impressed with.

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. EH

      But they sent her to, uh, Romania, and she fell in love with Romania, and she fell in love with, um, the people there. And she got obsessed with the racism against the Gypsy culture, um, the Roma culture, I'm supposed to call it. Um, and it reminded her a lot of growing up here in the '60s, um, and the racism she saw as a young girl, and she just decided to do something about it. And she spent 25 years there, and she got thousands of kids into school who wouldn't have gone to school. She just recently retired back to Fort Worth. And it's, she's a different woman than the woman I grew up with. Um, which is, I- I think, a remarkable story. I- I loved both the women, the wo- the woman now and the woman I grew up with. I- I don't wanna paint some portrait that she was miserable. She had so much... She just had, was miserable at work.

    14. JR

      Right.

    15. EH

      You know, she was not a miserable person to be with. Uh, the opposite.

    16. JR

      Right.

    17. EH

      Um, and she kept that fire in herself alive enough to, when the window presented itself, she took it, and she took it hard. I mean, she disappeared for a quarter of a century to Romania as a young woman born in Fort Worth, right? And that's a wild thing to do. And she made a huge impact, and I'm extremely proud of her and proud of the work that she's done, and so is everybody who knows her. Um, and, and now she's in Fort Worth doing her thing, and has a different sense of herself because she followed her own intuition and her own path.

    18. JR

      It just, she had to deal with the responsibility of raising-

    19. EH

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      ... a child for a long time.

    21. EH

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      Yeah. Yeah, well, that, that develops a different kinda character too. You know, the, the character of a woman trying to raise a child, and it's also a boy, you know. I- I have all daughters, and I think-

    23. EH

      You do, yeah.

    24. JR

      Yeah.

    25. EH

      I have three daughters and one boy, yeah.

    26. JR

      Yeah, all my friends who have boys are like, "Dude, it is so much harder."

    27. EH

      (laughs)

    28. JR

      It's just, the, the, you're just, you're s- trying to keep them from burning the house down.

    29. EH

      Yeah, it was a pain.

    30. JR

      Of course.

  7. 24:34 – 33:49

    Acting as empathy practice: becoming others, mentors, and a father’s grounding values

    1. JR

      Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, it's, it... All those experiences, when as an actor... I mean, one of the more fascinating things to me about watching people is how they can assume different identities. Like, and, and how critical is it to have had so many different people in your life and different life experiences to draw from, to try to understand things through their eyes? If you're a regular person running through... If you're a stockbroker, you're running through the world thinking like a stockbroker-

    2. EH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      ... you're not, you're not, uh, like, thinking, "What would it be like to be a janitor?"

    4. EH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      Like, "What is it like to be this guy who's trying to raise a family, and he's got a, a drug dealer in his neighborhood that's causing problems, and your life is this constant state of drama?" Like, you're drawing from all these different experiences. So having had, l- like, not... I mean, I wouldn't say it's... Your life was complicated, but it sounds like you have a really good mom. But complicated, like, and not necessarily that stable in that way. You're young, and you're, you know, you're trying this thing out, and you're going off to Hollywood, and then you're coming back and going to college. Like, having all these different bizarre interactions with people and life experiences, how much do you draw upon that when you're trying to, like, create a character?

    6. EH

      Well, that's a really big question. Um-

    7. JR

      It is.

    8. EH

      I- i- well, I mean, so I have to break it into parts.

    9. JR

      It started getting bigger as I was asking it. (laughs)

    10. EH

      Yeah, yeah, 'cause it's kinda two parts. But the, the first part about drawing on a character is touching on my favorite aspect of my life and my job. Most people, if you're an actuary, you're an actuary. You think in numbers, you think in this, this is... And it's your job, you have to.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. EH

      You know, you... I have, um, I got to play a World War II vet, got taken out to basic training. I got to read World War II veterans' journals over and over again. I got to wear the clothes they wore. Um, I was working on that movie for a few months, reading all kinds of books, watching documentaries about that. Then that movie's over. Moving on. Now I'm gonna get cast as a LA cop, gonna do ride-arounds through Los Angeles, uh, in the backseat of a cop car, right when the crash unit thing was happening. And, um, and I'm thinking like a cop. And I'm not... It's not... It's even... It's, it's different than being a journalist and writing about it. I'm really trying to imagine being them. And I'm not looking at it from a judgmental point of view. I don't have an agenda about whether they're a good person or a bad person, or whether this army sergeant should have made that decision or that one. I'm thinking about, "Why did he make it? Why did he make it? Why did he do that?"

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. EH

      Right? I play a jazz musician, a drug addict, right? I'm not sitting there judging him, "Oh, what a bad person." You know? I'm thinking, "Why'd he do it?" You know? It's, it's a painkiller. Why is he taking it? Where does this music come from? Why is it so important to him? Why does he practice 12 hours a day? What, uh, w- what is that about? You know, you... All these, um, characters are these invitations to, A, expand your own sense of what it, what identity means. Like, what is... Who is Joe Rogan, right? And who Joe Rogan is with his mom is a little different than he's watching the Super Bowl with his best friends. Who Joe Rogan is at 40 is different than who he is at 20. We, we have inside of us so many aspects to ourselves. You know? When you're, when you're in, in love, you, you change. When you see your child for the first time, you change. Your, your, your biology, your chemicals start to shift a little bit. If you're in a violent situation, you know, y- the, your molecular structure alters a little bit. And you start to realize that that's not you, and that's not you, and that's not you. They're all you. And, and that's what performing is like. And you start to, um, see society, and see yourself, and see a, a continuity that is really kind of exciting. I've had... If you don't get ruined by, oh, breaking your arm patting yourself on the back or something like that... I've met a bunch of older actors who've lived really interesting lives that I, I've learned... It's like I... I once had dinner with Vanessa Redgrave, this old English actress. She, she'd spent her life doing Shakespeare, and Chekhov, and Beckett, and Tennessee Williams. She'd spent her life with some of the greatest minds of the last 50 years, and she carries that with her. Um, she's powerfully intelligent, powerfully humble woman. And it's, it's like b- being next to somebody you really admire. You know? A master craftsman. Doesn't matter what the craft is. When they, when you take it to a high level, it has a lot to teach you. So anyway, that was a multi-part question. The other thing that, part of your question is how did I stay balanced? And a lot of it had to do with my father, who, um, has... He doesn't care about celebrity, doesn't particularly think it's very interesting, and, um, not in a judgmental way. He really cares about integrity, and whether you're a good person, and whether you tell the truth. And it doesn't, it's not that interesting to him how much money you make. Um, that's not where his value system is placed on whether... He's naturally suspicious of people who want too much attention.

    15. JR

      (laughs)

    16. EH

      N- naturally suspicious of that in me, which was good for me. Because-

    17. JR

      It's a good suspicion.

    18. EH

      It's a healthy suspicion.

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. EH

      He had... Was very realistic about the chances I had of making a profession out of this. That's not a bad thing. You know, everybody says...... it's so great to tell people to follow your dreams, and it is important to follow your dreams. But it's also important to be realistic and have a plan, and take care of yourself and, and, um, when you say you're gonna do something, to do it, to show up when you're asked, to tell the truth. All these things that... So whenever things would start to go well, I had this person in my life that's very important to me who doesn't place a value on anything superficial. And when we talked about why it's so hard to meet young people in this profession who make it, what starts to happen regardless of how good or not good your parents are or something, your circle can get infiltrated with a lot of people trying to make money off you. And, um, and that's dangerous 'cause they don't care about you, you know?

    21. JR

      Yeah, that is an issue. Th- there is an issue of people trying to get you to take work that you really shouldn't take just because they're gonna get a percentage of it.

    22. EH

      Or it's gonna be good for you in the next-

    23. JR

      Yeah, right.

    24. EH

      ... three years, but they don't have your long-term-

    25. JR

      Right.

    26. EH

      ... y- you know, what is gonna be good for the 65-year-old v- version of you.

    27. JR

      Right.

    28. EH

      Y- you know, is this... Like you said, yeah, if I could have f- if I could have decided my life, Explorers would have been a huge hit. It would have been E.T. big, and you know what? I wouldn't be here on this talk show today. You know, so I don't wanna be in charge of my whole life in that way, you know? You-

    29. JR

      Maybe you would, but it'd be different. You'd be coming out of rehab. (laughs)

    30. EH

      Oh, oh, for sure.

  8. 33:49 – 37:47

    Heroes without worship: Jodie Foster, Jeff Bridges, and learning from longevity

    1. EH

      You know? It has worked for a handful of people, but most of us, you know... I keep coming back to this conversation with Jodie Foster, how much I admire. I read her interviews 'cause I admire her 'cause I know what she's survived.

    2. JR

      Right.

    3. EH

      But, but she's wicked smart.

    4. JR

      Yes.

    5. EH

      You know? You don't wanna, you don't wanna place your bet that you're as smart as she is.

    6. JR

      Yeah, she's smart and also wise. That's what... the odd thing of someone who was in... like, how old was she in Taxi Driver?

    7. EH

      I don't know, 12, 14?

    8. JR

      Crazy.

    9. EH

      I know.

    10. JR

      Crazy.

    11. EH

      I know.

    12. JR

      And it's a very bizarre movie for a young child to be sexualized in, in this very weird-

    13. EH

      I don't-

    14. JR

      ... psychotic movie.

    15. EH

      But what she took from it was this great mentor in Martin Scorsese.

    16. JR

      Mm.

    17. EH

      And she kinda understood she was making art. That's where the wisdom comes in. She's just naturally precociously wise that way-

    18. JR

      Mm.

    19. EH

      ... that she didn't get hung up on the, the-

    20. JR

      Fame and-

    21. EH

      ... or, the seedy aspects-

    22. JR

      Right.

    23. EH

      ... or the sexuality aspects of it. She got hung up on-

    24. JR

      Hmm.

    25. EH

      ... "Who is this guy Martin Scorsese? What is he doing? What is this movie saying? How could I be a part of that?"

    26. JR

      Mm.

    27. EH

      You know? And that's how I think she survived, but I, I don't know the woman, so I shouldn't speak.

    28. JR

      Yeah, I don't know her either, but I do admire her when I hear her talk.

    29. EH

      Yeah, me too.

    30. JR

      And I... that's why I always bring her up as the lone example that I've ever come across of someone who's been through childhood stardom that seems to be, like, very well and put together.

  9. 37:47 – 47:59

    Kris Kristofferson stories: mentorship, artistry, and the Chelsea Walls lesson

    1. EH

      Did you ever meet Kris Kristofferson?

    2. JR

      No.

    3. EH

      He was cool.

    4. JR

      Yeah?

    5. EH

      Yeah. I ... Well, I, I ... My secret fantasy is, is your job, you know. I, I, I wrote a profile on Kris, um, I don't know, 15 years ago now, for Rolling Stone Magazine. And I, I made a documentary about Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward, and I just finished a documentary about Merle Haggard. And, um, I really enjoy studying other people. And, um ... But Kris, uh, you know, his, his life story is, uh, you know, know- it all. I mean, he was in the military, and then he gave up everything and became a songwriter. And it- i- i- it's kinda like, imagine if ... (laughs) You know, the equivalent is like, at the point of, height of his career, it's like imagining, um, uh, if Brad Pitt had also written a number one single for Amy Winehouse and ... (laughs)

    6. JR

      (laughs)

    7. EH

      You know what I mean?

    8. JR

      Right, right.

    9. EH

      I mean, I mean, you know, he, he wrote Me and Bobby McGee for Janis Joplin. And-

    10. JR

      He did?

    11. EH

      Yeah, yeah. Oh, c- oh, yeah, man.

    12. JR

      Wow.

    13. EH

      And he was, you know, a helicopter pilot, and he wrote songs for Johnny Cash, and he was acting in Sam Peckinpah movies, and that's-

    14. JR

      He was in Blade.

    15. EH

      Y- yeah. He was in Blade.

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. EH

      Um, but he was a, a real ... He's a Rhodes Scholar and a boxer. You would like this guy. He would be right up your alley. A real free-thinker. And, um, didn't trap himself in any way of thinking. And, um, really fought for individual rights. And, uh, he was a great, great guy. I got to interview him. And s- he, he actually starred in my first movie I directed too, so I got to know him well.

    18. JR

      What was that?

    19. EH

      This is a movie called Chelsea Walls. I don't necessarily recommend you watch it.

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. EH

      Uh, (laughs) you can-

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. EH

      ... if- if you want to. (laughs) I learned a lot making it. I- I- I like it a lot. But, uh, I- I was lear- ... You know. I was learning a lot. But Kris, Kris was in it, and he was amazing.

    24. JR

      Yeah. Having known people like that is so beneficial in your life. They, they, th- they're not just, like, inspirational. It's like a mental fuel, a type of, uh, a type of nutrient almost. It's like having a person that you know exists that's been through something, has come out amazing, and is, and is so not tied down to any one specific identity, has varied interests, pursues them all with passion.

    25. EH

      Having mentors.

    26. JR

      Yes.

    27. EH

      It's like, you know, how, how are you gonna be a samurai if you don't know what a samurai is?

    28. JR

      Right.

    29. EH

      You know? And you gotta see the way they tie their shoes. You gotta see-

    30. JR

      Mm-hmm.

  10. 47:59 – 57:51

    What “great acting” is: hypnosis, collective imagination, and Method misconceptions

    1. JR

      For a person that watches movies, I mean, I've done a small amount of acting but I'm not good at it. For a person who watches movies, there's a thing that happens like a hypnosis when someone is a really good actor, where they become that person. And even though I know it's Ethan Hawke, I know it's fill in the blank, Daniel Day-Lewis, I know who, I know who it is, but it's not them at this moment. They're so good that they've convinced me-

    2. EH

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      ... that they're this other person. What is that? Because there are moments where I see a good actor-... and I say, "I don't believe them. I don't... I think they're phoning it in. They're saying it the right way, but there's just something in the air. There's a missing connection." And, it is the key to a great movie.

    4. EH

      (laughs)

    5. JR

      The key to a great movie is everybody has to be in that fucking weird zone, that weird zone where you become a different person.

    6. EH

      You used the essential word in your first sentence, which is hypnosis. And I, I've spent my life studying what you just talked about. And, um, when you're acting with Denzel Washington, the power, and strength, and completeness of his imagination is hypnotizing. And it's an invitation to join him. And a great film is a collective, imaginative experience. When you watch The Godfather, you're not f- fucking thinking about Al Pacino or James Caan-

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. EH

      ... or... You think about Michael, and Sonny, and-

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. EH

      ... Tom, and, y- you know, Vito. They... I, I remember I watched The Godfather, and I felt like I'd see those guys at the Knick game tomorrow. That's how we... That's how much... You're not thinking about the music, you're not thinking about the shots. You know, it's all one thing. All these disparate elements turn into one fist. You cannot do it alone, right? But the best people I've worked with, it's like... I- i- it... The easiest example to show it, like, for anybody w- when you go to a concert, every now and then it happens, the performer hypnotizes you, and you disappear.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. EH

      You d- you're, you're inside those songs.

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. EH

      You know? You, you're not talking about those songs, you're not looking at them, you're not listening, you are inside the song. You're inside a dream. And bad acting for me is glib, bad acting is commenting on the song, bad acting is slightly... The feeling you're talking about is when somebody's slightly outside of it. It's very, very hard to do, and a lot of people, um, study it and work on it. And voice and speech is a huge... I mean, this stuff is very... it's, it's way more interesting to me than it would be to our audience here today. But it's, like, all these elements of what creates hypnosis. If I, if you were... If we were talking about the violin, there are ways to practice the violin. And I'm not gonna make somebody a virtuoso, but I can, if I'm an expert violin p- j- help you be better. And I think the same is true for acting. Acting i- is an art form, it's beautiful, um, it's some weird collage of where performance, and writing, and, oh, all these elements, music, a- all... It's all a part of it, and when it's happening, it's all effortless. And there's a lot of work you can do to inch it to being easier, and to inch your scene partner to being easier, and there are ways that they can help you, and there's ways that they can ruin it. They can break the dream. Um, but when it's good, it is like diving into a dream. And it's a feeling that I got for the first time when I was 18 years old, um, acting in Dead Poets Society. And it was a feeling that was... it was seconds long. I mean, it was not much, but a feeling of disappearing. And, and that's the irony I always, uh, feel about acting is that, you know, people think about actors when they see these pictures on the red carpet or something, they think that's what acting is. You know? What it really is, it's a life of... It's completely antithetical to that of trying to disappear. It, it feels like the celebration of the self, the celebration of the personality, the... But when you're doing a scene with Philip Seymour Hoffman, y- you know, um, it's not Phil that's talking to you. You know? It's, it's, it's like, you know, in the cartoon when the, when the eyes go all squirrely?

    15. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    16. EH

      And like da-da-la-la-la.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. EH

      And then the wa-a-a-a-a.

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. EH

      And then, and then all of a sudden, I'm not me. And if I've done my work right, the f-... All of a sudden, I'm saying, what's coming out of my mouth is what I prepared, what, what's coming out of my pocket is what I prepared, the way I'm moving is what I'm prepared 'cause... And I'm not thinking about it. It's like watching a great athlete. When a great athlete is... makes a behind the back pass to the guy at the perfect sec-... He's not thinking, "Oh, I've got a cool idea."

    21. JR

      Right.

    22. EH

      "I'm gonna throw it behind my back, and I'll catch him right as he's in stride." It, it's years of practice that have let them know that, "I know where h- he is," 'cause where else would he be?

    23. JR

      Right.

    24. EH

      Y- you know? And things that are at first difficult become easy. Um, and then you can even get better from there, and get better from there. But that's the difference. People talk about... You know, I love Daniel Day-Lewis too. I think he's kind of the high watermark of m- my trade. And, you know, you hear these stories about what he does, and people say, "W- well, is that what you're supposed to do?" And the thing about when people say, "Method acting," is they really don't fundamentally understand what the method is. The method is, uh, an invitation to find out for yourself what will unlock your imagination. And that might be going hungry for two weeks. That might be sleeping in a jail cell. It might be reading 25 books about it. It might be wearing a weird headpiece. The... It's, it's not a rule. It's about how to unlock what's in here and bring it forward. That's what the greats do.

    25. JR

      And find that zone. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats.Every football season, the same thing happens, the game somehow makes everyone really hungry. Quarterback scrambles, clearly a sign it's time for breakfast burritos. Turnovers, suddenly, dessert at 2:00 PM doesn't sound so crazy. And wing formations, well, those can only mean buffalo wings, as if they're ever not in play. Even the goalposts start looking suspiciously like french fries. It's almost like football is sending the message to eat more food. The good news, Uber Eats makes those cravings easy to satisfy with game day deals all season long. From wings and pizza, to chips and drinks, even last minute grocery runs. You'll find savings on all your favorites delivered straight to your door. Order now on Uber Eats. ... And when you're watching a movie, it does the exact same feeling, like I'm there with you. Whatever you're experiencing when you are in that zone, and you really are that person, I- I'm not just saying, "Oh, he really is that person." I'm with you. I'm with you in the moment. I feel your anxiety. The scene in the... Goddammit, I forgot the name of it. The film you did with Julia Roberts, the dystopian end of-

    26. EH

      Oh, uh-

    27. JR

      ... civilization movie-

    28. EH

      Yeah, exactly.

    29. JR

      ... Euphrates?

    30. EH

      Now that you said it, it went out of my head, too.

  11. 57:51 – 1:09:04

    Presence training: wolves, Philip Seymour Hoffman’s “something smells fake,” and permission to fail

    1. EH

      Right? He's, if he gives me this thing that I need, he's putting his wife at risk. You're not gonna do it. "I don't care about your kid." You know? And then Mahershala's got his character in his head, and then, then all of a sudden, people are actually behaving. They're not reciting lines. They're not... It's like, I did one of my f- earlier movies with a wolf, right? It was the best acting teacher I ever had, this wolf. Because it was this movie called White Fang, right? Little Disney kids movie, right? But it was a great teacher, 'cause I had to do these scenes with this half, half-breed wolf. And if I'm, if you're the wolf, all right, and we're doing a scene together, and what I'm really thinking about is the camera, you know, the wolf turns around and looks at the camera.

    2. JR

      Mm.

    3. EH

      You know? You, you know when you meet somebody and you know they're self-conscious, right? You know, "Why is she, why is she so tense?" Th- you don't, you just, you, we're non-verbal, we can communicate with each other. Animals pick up on it instantly. If I'm actually talking to the dog, the wolf, if I'm actually in, if I'm present with this animal, the animal interacts with me. You know?

    4. JR

      Mm.

    5. EH

      And, um-

    6. JR

      Especially a wolf.

    7. EH

      Especially a wolf. (laughs) And-

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. EH

      Damn thing bit me-

    10. JR

      There it is.

    11. EH

      ... it bit me that day.

    12. JR

      Did it really?

    13. EH

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      Hard?

    15. EH

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      Why'd it bite you?

    17. EH

      All right, this is one of the best days of filming in my life, no kidding, all right? Which is that amazing animal trainer, Clint Rowe was his name, and we wanted to, it was a scene where I'm getting the wolf to trust me. And, uh, and it's gonna eat out of my hand for the first time. And so Clint had this amazing idea, he's like, "What if..." You could see from, even from that shot how far, that's a long lens that thing. They put me on a little tiny island with two, you know like some, two rivers fork?

    18. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. EH

      And so there's a little island of land right there. And so we put, see, this, the w- wolf's surrounded by water, right? And, and I, this is Flame, this isn't the wo- the animal that I knew really well. Um, but we're tr- the way to get it to look like it is we have to not know each other. And I spent all day out there with this wolf. And whenever the cameras started thinking I might have a chance of getting to pet him, they would start rolling. And I'd just talk to the wolf and I'd walk around and play, and I just had to try to be real with him. And he started to like me. I'll sh- I'll get... It's not boring. And, and this is, I'm, I'm getting close 'cause he's starting to like me. We've been playing a lot. And he comes over and, okay, you'll see, he, he, he... You'll see him bite me if you want. Um, but, uh, amazing, amazing animal. But the point I'm trying to say is I, we s- I sat out there for 11 hours with this starving wolf. (laughs)

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. EH

      Right? Trying to get him to eat. Um-Ready, ready, and... Ouch. Okay. (laughs)

    22. JR

      That wasn't that bad.

    23. EH

      It wasn't that bad, well, it bled, Joe.

    24. JR

      Did it really?

    25. EH

      Yeah. (laughs)

    26. JR

      Sharp teeth. But it didn't look like he was trying to hurt you.

    27. EH

      No, no, he wasn't, he wasn't.

    28. JR

      Right.

    29. EH

      That's what I mean. He, he wasn't, he was... Um... And so, and by the end of the day, check this out, man. I mean, it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. I know it's a corny kids movie or whatever, but, but, um-

    30. JR

      But it's a real wolf and he doesn't know he's acting.

  12. 1:09:04 – 1:47:39

    Phones, social media, critics, and resilience: protecting attention and sanity

    1. EH

      All right, well, one of the ... M- My thing is I can't b- I cannot believe the amount of young people who show up on set with their phone.

    2. JR

      Oh, yeah.

    3. EH

      And when ... And what w- you were saying about hypnosis-

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. EH

      Let me tell you what's a destroyer of collective imagination-

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. EH

      ... is, is our phones.

    8. JR

      I was reading an article today, and I think it was Psychology Today, about, um, a study that they've done, um, recently on the impact of social media on cognitive function for children, and that it's just fucking nuking their brain, nuking their creative-

    9. EH

      How old are your kids?

    10. JR

      I have a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old, and a 28-year-old.

    11. EH

      So what is your, like ... 'Cause o- my wife and I go through this a lot. They want it so bad-

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. EH

      And y- you, as a parent, you want them to be happy, and all their friends have Instagram. I know it destroys my brain.

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. EH

      How could it not hurt theirs? I find my own powers of concentration are suffering. I'll be reading a book, which I used to do all the time, and every 10 pages I take a break to look at my phone. What's happening? Why am I doing this?

    16. JR

      Right.

    17. EH

      You, you know, what, what ... So but they want it so bad-

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. EH

      ... and I want them to be h- uh, how do you handle that?

    20. JR

      I do not put restrictions on my children's use of social media, but we do have discussions about it because I think it is an inexorable part of modern society, and I think there is a social ostracization that comes from eliminating social media, telling your kid they can't have a phone. I see it in other kids.

    21. EH

      Okay.

    22. JR

      I don't think that's the solution.

    23. EH

      My daughter is loving you right now.

    24. JR

      (laughs)

    25. EH

      She is just like, "See?" 'Cause she says, "Let me be... Teach me to be responsible for it myself."

    26. JR

      Yes.

    27. EH

      "Help me do that." And-

    28. JR

      That, that's what I believe.

    29. EH

      And, and, you know, when we were thinking about w- ah, what restrictions we were gonna do, uh, we went on this walk with this really good friend of mine, Richard Linklater, he's an amazing person, and they tried to, my daughters hit him up with what he thinks. And he said, "I don't know. All I know is that the most important thing is to be your own best friend, and that this is a slight obstacle to it."

    30. JR

      Mm.

Episode duration: 2:21:57

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