Joe Rogan Experience #2448 - Andrew Doyle

1. 0:00 – 0:02

   Intro

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:02 – 0:40

   Six years later: from COVID and BLM to a new culture-war phase

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music] Yes, Andrew.

   4. ADAndrew Doyle0:13

      Hello.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Good to see you, brother.

   6. ADAndrew Doyle0:15

      Good to see you, too.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Um, it has been, you said, six years almost to the day-

   8. ADAndrew Doyle0:19

      Almost to the day

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      ... last time. So-

   10. ADAndrew Doyle0:20

       Lots changed. [chuckles]

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       Right before everything went crazy.

   12. ADAndrew Doyle0:23

       That's it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:24

       Right before.

   14. ADAndrew Doyle0:25

       Yeah, the whole world sort of shifted after that.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       'Cause everything went kooky around March, right?

   16. ADAndrew Doyle0:28

       Yeah, so it was February 2020, and then, then we have COVID, and then we have... You know, we've had Trump in between of that. We had BLM. That summer of 2020, everything just exploded and went a bit mad.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       Yeah.

   18. ADAndrew Doyle0:37

       And, um, yeah, and then everything shifted, so-

3. 0:40 – 2:02

   What “The End of Woke” argues: authoritarian impulse and the pendulum swing

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:40

      And then you wrote a book.

   2. ADAndrew Doyle0:41

      I wrote a book.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:42

      It's called The End of Woke: How the Culture War Went Too Far and What to Expect from the Counter-Revolution. Isn't that how it always goes, though? It goes like, we go too far-

   4. ADAndrew Doyle0:52

      Yeah

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:52

      ... and then we overcorrect, and we become Nazis.

   6. ADAndrew Doyle0:55

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:55

      Or [laughing] --

   8. ADAndrew Doyle0:56

      That's it, exactly. [laughing] Well, you know-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:58

      Or it's, or it's the opposite: we go socialist.

   10. ADAndrew Doyle1:01

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       You know, it's-

   12. ADAndrew Doyle1:01

       It's a big pendulum. I get that. It sort of goes back and forth. I mean, I was trying to s- in that book, I was-- I'm trying to make the point that what woke was, was like a kind of the latest manifestation of an, a kind of innate authoritarian impulse. I think human beings are, by default, quite, uh, inclined towards just shutting people up if they don't like them.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Yeah.

   14. ADAndrew Doyle1:19

       Just imposing their authority. And so woke wa- I mean, a lot of people are annoyed that I've called it the end of woke. I'm not saying it's all over, let's just go home, forget about it. It's still going on. But the point about it is, is that in its current manifestation, things are changing now so rapidly. We are moving into some sort of new phase, and that authoritarianism, which we've associated with the left, might come up from the right. It could come up from anywhere. It's what you say about the pendulum.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:42

       Yeah.

   16. ADAndrew Doyle1:42

       So you just have to be kind of vigilant about it. I don't think we were vigilant. I think that's why woke happened. We weren't vigilant against this prospect that, you know, pe- authoritarianism could emerge in what we thought was a free society.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:54

       Well, authoritarianism, authoritarianism, it snuck in through, uh, a sheep costume.

   18. ADAndrew Doyle2:00

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:01

       You know, it was-

   20. ADAndrew Doyle2:01

       A wolf in a sheep's costume.

4. 2:02 – 4:25

   Language as camouflage: equity, inclusion, and ‘gender-affirming care’

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:02

      Yeah, it was a, it was a costume of being more inclusive, being more open-minded-

   2. ADAndrew Doyle2:08

      Right

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:08

      ... being a better society, being kinder, you know?

   4. ADAndrew Doyle2:12

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:12

      It, it, it led to, you know, child trans surgeries. It led to chaos. It led to, like, a lot of, like, really fucking freaky things that you'd have never expected. People, people saying that the First Amendment's not important.

   6. ADAndrew Doyle2:24

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:25

      What's more important is protecting people, like-

   8. ADAndrew Doyle2:27

      Well, that was the key, wasn't it? The point was that, [clears throat] the way it worked was that it was gulling people through language that sounded-

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:32

      Yeah

   10. ADAndrew Doyle2:33

       ... pretty sweet and kittenish-

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:34

       Yes

   12. ADAndrew Doyle2:35

       ... and fluffy. You know, things like equity. Well, that sounds a lot like equality, doesn't it?

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:39

       Right.

   14. ADAndrew Doyle2:39

       But it, it doesn't mean equality. It means treating people unequally to ensure, uh, equal outcomes according to group identity. That's a very different thing. You say you're talking about, "Let's make everything inclusive," but what you really mean is, "Let's exclude anyone who disagrees with what we've got to say."

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:54

       Right.

   16. ADAndrew Doyle2:54

       So you're using language to mean the exact opposite. They say gender-affirming care, but do they mean that? Or do they mean affirming what is effectively a pseudoscientific belief among vulnerable people? So it's, it's all about misusing language because most people, I think, or I like to think, are pretty decent.

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:10

       Yeah.

   18. ADAndrew Doyle3:11

       Like, most people want to be kind and want to be fair, and when you hear these activists saying, "Be kind, be compassionate, or else," right? [laughing]

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:18

       [chuckles] Yeah.

   20. ADAndrew Doyle3:19

       You know, they- you kind of think, "Okay, well, maybe their intentions are good, but also, they're pretty scary." I mean, there's, there's a, there's a weird... There was a weird thing with the woke thing, which was that, on the one hand, it proclaimed to be this sort of great, virtuous, kind, uh, progressive, right side of history. How often did you hear that phrase?

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:36

       Right.

   22. ADAndrew Doyle3:37

       And at the same time, they're like dangerous dogs. Like, you're, you're, you're like, "I better not piss them off. I better not say the wrong thing in the workplace, 'cause they'll des- [chuckles] they'll destroy you."

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:46

       Well, I always find that the most preposterous the idea is and the, the least capable it is to stand up to scrutiny, the more violent the enforcement of that idea will be.

   24. ADAndrew Doyle3:58

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:59

       Because you cannot combat that. You, you can't defend that idea with logic, so you have to defend it with fear and force-

   26. ADAndrew Doyle4:05

       Yeah

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:05

       ... and just, just shouting people down, and that's what we saw. And that's-

   28. ADAndrew Doyle4:10

       But-

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:10

       It's a natural impulse of human beings.

   30. ADAndrew Doyle4:12

       Absolutely.
5. 4:25 – 8:56

   UK speech policing: arrests for ‘grossly offensive’ posts and ‘needless anxiety’

   1. ADAndrew Doyle4:25

      ... against that, against that impulse? And I feel at the moment that the UK is kind of failing, where America is, to a degree, succeeding, not in, obviously, in all ways. But when it comes to the idea of freedom and free speech, like, I think UK is pretty far- has pretty fallen to the kind of the, the, the woke insistence that you need to control people's language be- so that you can create this perfect society, which can never come anyway. It's just utopian.

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:48

      Well, I think it's been co-opted. I think whatever organic version of that emerges naturally from society-

   3. ADAndrew Doyle4:56

      Yeah

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:56

      ... where people want- where there's an overcorrection, I think in the U- UK, because you guys don't have free speech laws, 'cause it's just different over there-

   5. ADAndrew Doyle5:04

      Yeah

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:04

      ... you can get away with a lot of crazy shit. Like, the, first of all, like, we should explain what we're talking about.

   7. ADAndrew Doyle5:10

      Mm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:10

      There's more than 12,000 people have been arrested in the UK in the past year for social media posts, and if you read some of those social media posts, they're not even remotely terrifying. It's not like, "I'm going to grab a knife and go cut the head off of every immigrant I see."

   9. ADAndrew Doyle5:28

      Yeah, yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:28

       Like, "Hey, buddy, maybe we should lock this guy up and evaluate him. He sounds like a crazy person." Like, "No, the immigrants are coming into this fucking country and creating all this crime." Knock on the door-

   11. ADAndrew Doyle5:37

       Yeah

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:37

       ... you're going to jail.

   13. ADAndrew Doyle5:38

       I worry that Americans think we're mad [chuckles] sometimes. I think-

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:42

       We do.

   15. ADAndrew Doyle5:42

       Yeah. Do you? We do.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:43

       We do now, yeah. We think you've lost it.

   17. ADAndrew Doyle5:44

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:45

       We th- well, we also think something happened where your leaders are intentionally trying to tank your country. It seems like they're trying to bring in as many migrants as possible, um, cater to them, not to the British people, and do it openly-

   19. ADAndrew Doyle6:02

       Yeah

   20. JRJoe Rogan6:02

       ... so that everyone knows what they're doing and then create chaos on the streets because of it.

   21. ADAndrew Doyle6:06

       Yeah, I mean, people have a phrase for that, anarcho-tyranny, you know, where you, where you punish people who aren't breaking the law-

   22. JRJoe Rogan6:11

       Yeah

   23. ADAndrew Doyle6:11

       ... but you, but you protect those who are. And-

   24. JRJoe Rogan6:13

       Right

   25. ADAndrew Doyle6:13

       ... I, I think with the... I mean-... I don't know the extent that Americans know the- I mean, the stat you quoted, that came from the Times newspaper in London, which did a Freedom Infor- Information request to the police. Found out that it's 12,000 a year on average, so that's, like, 30 a day, not just being investigated or looked into, but being arrested.

   26. JRJoe Rogan6:31

       But over the last few years only. If you go back-

   27. ADAndrew Doyle6:33

       Yeah

   28. JRJoe Rogan6:33

       ... it's only, like, 1,000 or 500.

   29. ADAndrew Doyle6:37

       It was-

   30. JRJoe Rogan6:37

       It's-
6. 8:56 – 12:27

   Concrete cases: memes, retweets, and prison sentences

   1. ADAndrew Doyle8:56

      The example I was going to give, uh, was this, um, guy called Darren Brady, and this sounds made up, and whenever I tell people this, it sounds made up. He, um, posted a meme. I don't know if you saw this meme, where it was the four progress pride flags. You know, that's got the crazy triangles and stuff in it?

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:11

      Uh-huh. And you put them all together, and they become a swastika.

   3. ADAndrew Doyle9:13

      Exactly that, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:14

      Yeah.

   5. ADAndrew Doyle9:14

      And that was going everywhere.

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:15

      Yeah.

   7. ADAndrew Doyle9:15

      And he posted it, and there's a video of him being arrested, put in handcuffs. He's an Army veteran, by the way, right? Put in handcuffs-

   8. JRJoe Rogan9:20

      [exhales]

   9. ADAndrew Doyle9:21

      ... by the police, and the policeman says in the video, "You caused someone anxiety." So the, the actual language from the law [laughs] is being used for this rearrangement of the... And you know what? That's quite a good satirical point-

   10. JRJoe Rogan9:33

       Yeah

   11. ADAndrew Doyle9:33

       ... that he was making. It wasn't even his meme. He was just retweeting a meme. But even if it was some horrible, offensive thing, who cares?

   12. JRJoe Rogan9:40

       How is-

   13. ADAndrew Doyle9:41

       And-

   14. JRJoe Rogan9:41

       ... that offensive?

   15. ADAndrew Doyle9:42

       [clears throat]

   16. JRJoe Rogan9:42

       But I guess, I mean, well, you could find... That's the problem. You could find anything offensive.

   17. ADAndrew Doyle9:46

       Mm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan9:47

       You could find anything grossly offensive if you're extremely sensitive.

   19. ADAndrew Doyle9:52

       You could. And, but wasn't there a point to that? I mean, he was kind of saying that the LGBTQIA+ -

   20. JRJoe Rogan9:58

       [clears throat]

   21. ADAndrew Doyle9:58

       ... movement has become quite authoritarian.

   22. JRJoe Rogan10:00

       Yeah.

   23. ADAndrew Doyle10:01

       He's not saying they're actual Nazis, and he's saying, "Oh, isn't it quite funny that when you put them together, it looks like a, it looks like a swastika?" The idea that you get handcuffed for that-

   24. JRJoe Rogan10:08

       Yeah

   25. ADAndrew Doyle10:08

       ... to me, is crazy.

   26. JRJoe Rogan10:08

       Especially for a retweet. That's crazy.

   27. ADAndrew Doyle10:10

       Yeah. Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan10:11

       That's crazy.

   29. ADAndrew Doyle10:12

       It's retweets, it's tweets, it's posts. Uh, we've had... Memes are the big one. So there was a guy called Lee Joseph Dunn, who went to prison for eight weeks, that was last year, I think, for three memes that he posted.

   30. JRJoe Rogan10:23

       Eight weeks?
7. 12:27 – 13:41

   Incitement standards: Brandenburg vs UK offense-based thresholds

   1. ADAndrew Doyle12:27

      And I guess it all comes down to this view, which I think is completely wrong, that words and violence are the same thing, uh, that words can create a more violent society, that there's a direct causal link between the stuff that people say and the stuff that people say online to how people behave in the real world. And I think you guys have got it right, 'cause you've got the Brandenburg test. Do you know about the, the, the, the test for incitement to violence in the US?

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:50

      No, what is that?

   3. ADAndrew Doyle12:51

      It's, it's basically a test that was established, I think, back in the '60s. Uh, it was a KKK leader called Clarence Brandenburg, who was prosecuted for incitement to violence. And the test was, that was established since that precedent, was that any words, uh, that can be convicted for incitement to violence, they have to be intended to cause violence, likely to cause violence, and the violence must be imminent. And if you satisfy those, that, that threshold, you can be prosecuted in the US for incitement to violence. So it'd be like, kind of, imagine a demagogue surrounded by all his fans, whipping up a frenzy-

   4. JRJoe Rogan13:22

      Right

   5. ADAndrew Doyle13:22

      ... and then pointing to a guy on the front row and saying, "Kill him now." That would qualify for the Brandenburg test.

   6. JRJoe Rogan13:28

      Right.

   7. ADAndrew Doyle13:28

      But in the UK, because we don't have that test, all we've got is whether people found it offensive. That's the, that's the difference of the threshold. So it's a, it's a massive difference between what the US has and what the UK has.

   8. JRJoe Rogan13:40

      Massive.

8. 13:41 – 16:51

   Deleted tweet, long sentence: the Lucy Connolly example

   1. ADAndrew Doyle13:41

      It's insane. I mean, to give the most r- obvious recent example, 'cause I don't know if people know about this, there's a woman called Lucy Connolly in the UK. Uh, I don't know if this was reported over here at all. Do you remember we had all these riots last year during the summer when, uh, against hotels which were housing asylum seekers, and people were setting fire to them? There were genuinely racist stuff going on, right, during those riots, and this was off the back of a guy who'd murdered a bunch of little girls in a dance class. And there were rumors going around that this was an asylum seeker, right? And this one woman, a mother, who'd lost her daughter, very sensitive about the idea of, um... Lucy Connolly, she's very sensitive about the idea of loss of kids. She tweeted in an ang- in a fit of anger, "Go and burn down all the hotels for all I care. Uh, if that makes me racist, so be it. And take the government with you." Something like that. And she deleted it within a couple of hours. She went out, walked her dog, she deleted it, and she thought, "I really w- that's not me. That's not who I am." Deleted it. [sniffs] Police came, went to court, sentenced to 31 months in prison for that deleted, swiftly deleted tweet, and she served over a year.

   2. JRJoe Rogan14:46

      Oh, my God!

   3. ADAndrew Doyle14:47

      Now, I'm not saying the tweet was nice [chuckles] right? The tweet was a horrible tweet, and she says it was a horrible tweet, that's why she deleted it. But because we don't have that Brandenburg test, we don't have a test for incitement to violence... 'Cause the key is, that tweet, there was no way it could have... She was a nobody. You know, she wasn't someone with influence. She didn't have many followers.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:05

      [exhales]

   5. ADAndrew Doyle15:05

      Um, she- no one was going to read that and go and act upon it. And if they did, that would be on them, right? Because-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:13

      Yeah

   7. ADAndrew Doyle15:14

      ... this is a myth. This myth that people act on cue to what they read online-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:18

      Well, it-

   9. ADAndrew Doyle15:18

      It isn't real

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:18

       ... it influences people, for sure. But at, at what point are you required to have sovereignty over your own mind and your own actions?

   11. ADAndrew Doyle15:29

       Yeah. Well, I think what it does is it raises the temperature, particularly when political leaders do it.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:34

       Right, but w- when political... But my point is, like, it's not gonna incite you to violence. It's not going to incite me to violence. So who are we talking about?

   13. ADAndrew Doyle15:43

       Right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:43

       This is part of the thing, is, like, they're protecting the dumbest members of society. This is like the thing about banning, you know, crazy talk online. If you're talking about witches or, you know, whatever it is-

   15. ADAndrew Doyle15:55

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       ... flat Earth. Like, y- we have to stop misinformation. But from, from who? It's not working on you, right?

   17. ADAndrew Doyle16:01

       Yes, um-

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       You don't believe it, so who are we protecting? We're protecting the dumbest people?

   19. ADAndrew Doyle16:06

       Also, aren't you kind of letting them off?

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:07

       Mm.

   21. ADAndrew Doyle16:07

       Like, if, if someone goes and commits an act of violence and said, "Oh, I did it because someone told me to do it," aren't you kind of letting them off the hook?

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:13

       Right. Exactly.

   23. ADAndrew Doyle16:15

       A- a- and sort of displacing the blame.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       [clears throat]

   25. ADAndrew Doyle16:17

       You know, it's like that guy who shot, uh, John Lennon, who said Catcher in the Rye made him do it. Reading the book Catcher- are we now blaming J.D. Salinger-

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:24

       Right

   27. ADAndrew Doyle16:24

       ... for the murder of John Lennon? It was John Lennon, wasn't it? I think it was.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       Yes.

   29. ADAndrew Doyle16:27

       Yeah, so-

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       Yeah
9. 16:51 – 27:58

   Media trust collapse: BBC editing, narrative-setting, and ‘truth as convenience’

   1. JRJoe Rogan16:51

      Well, this was the argument with Trump for January 6th.

   2. ADAndrew Doyle16:55

      Right. Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:55

      And that's why the BBC edited his speech to make it look as if that's what he was saying.

   4. ADAndrew Doyle17:00

      Do you s- you saw that clip, right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:01

      Oh, my God, it's fucking crazy.

   6. ADAndrew Doyle17:03

      I, I mean, I've been saying for a long time, the BBC has a real... Like, what I will say in the BBC's defense, is they've always been pretty good at being party politically neutral. Like, they will, uh, interrogate someone on the, the right and someone on the left in a pretty neutral way. They don't... They, I think they do pretty good. I know people will be annoyed at me for saying that, but I think they do.

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:22

      Mm.

   8. ADAndrew Doyle17:22

      But I think in terms of the ideology, the woke ideology, they got captured. They have a thing at the BBC called the LGBT desk, or they had it up until recently, which could veto any news story, which meant that any story that was slightly critical of transactivism or, or anything like that, just didn't get reported. So I'm not surprised that the BBC have a-

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:40

      They gave them veto power?

   10. ADAndrew Doyle17:42

       They gave them veto power, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:43

       That's crazy.

   12. ADAndrew Doyle17:44

       This all came out in a report, quite a recent report, just a few months ago, which led to the resignation of Tim Davie, the director general, and he resigned ostensibly because of that Trump clip, which by the way, that wasn't the first time they did it. There, there was another clip about a year or a year before, in a different program, that did the same thing. Took the clip, re-edited it, and made it look like he had said something he absolutely had not said. So I think the, uh, the, the BBC quite obviously has a, an ideological bias, if not a party political bias.

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:12

       But that's more than a bias.

   14. ADAndrew Doyle18:14

       Well, it's misleading, right?

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:15

       Yeah.

   16. ADAndrew Doyle18:15

       It's, it's-

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:16

       It's completely deceptive. You're, you're editing something and cha- I mean, you... They took out a giant chunk of his speech.

   18. ADAndrew Doyle18:23

       Yeah. Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan18:24

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   20. ADAndrew Doyle19:28

       They leapt, like, 45 minutes or something.

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:30

       Right.

   22. ADAndrew Doyle19:30

       Like, so he said-

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:31

       Something crazy like that.

   24. ADAndrew Doyle19:32

       Yeah, he said s- it made him look like he was saying, "Go and-

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:34

       Exactly

   26. ADAndrew Doyle19:34

       ... commit the, the crime."

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:36

       Exactly.

   28. ADAndrew Doyle19:36

       Yeah, exactly.

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:36

       And instead, he, he was i- in tongue-in-cheek, talking about the very fine senator, that they're doing a great job, the f- senators and congresspeople-

   30. ADAndrew Doyle19:46

       Yeah
10. 27:58 – 31:40

    X, Grok, and AI-era censorship: child safety pretexts and real-time fact-checking

    1. ADAndrew Doyle27:58

       Yeah, so why don't they get it? I mean, we've had, like, people in left-leaning papers in the UK calling for Elon Musk to be arrested-

    2. JRJoe Rogan28:04

       Yeah

    3. ADAndrew Doyle28:04

       ... because he's allowing free speech on X or Twitter, whatever you wanna call it. Like, what, what-

    4. JRJoe Rogan28:08

       Well, their offices got raided today-

    5. ADAndrew Doyle28:11

       Did it?

    6. JRJoe Rogan28:11

       ... in some country. There was a country where X's offices got raided. Um, I think one of the things was they somehow or another let- there were s- uh, I think something had to do with child pornography.

    7. ADAndrew Doyle28:25

       Where was that? France?

    8. JRJoe Rogan28:26

       France.

    9. ADAndrew Doyle28:27

       Wow.

    10. JRJoe Rogan28:27

        French investigation into Grok. And what is it, what are the-

    11. ADAndrew Doyle28:32

        Oh, so you know what this is all about.

    12. JRJoe Rogan28:33

        Scenarios.

    13. ADAndrew Doyle28:33

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan28:34

        Suspected offences including unlawful data extraction and complicity in the possession of child pornography.

    15. ADAndrew Doyle28:41

        Yeah, but that's not what this is about. This is because people have been misusing Grok to, like, put bikinis on women they like, or it cr- even in a few-

    16. JRJoe Rogan28:48

        Oh

    17. ADAndrew Doyle28:48

        ... horrible cases, creating child, child sexual stuff.

    18. JRJoe Rogan28:51

        You can do... Wait a minute, you can't create child pornography on Grok.

    19. ADAndrew Doyle28:54

        I don't think you can. No! Or, or, or, or at least I think that's very much been shut down and safeguarded, right? I think that's what's happened.

    20. JRJoe Rogan28:59

        But I mean, unless there's, like, some sort of a loophole where you could get it to do it. Among potential crimes, it said it would investigate where complicity and possession or organized distribution of images of children of a pornographic nature, infringement of people's image rights with sexual deepfakes. Okay, the sexual deepfakes.

    21. ADAndrew Doyle29:17

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan29:17

        So sexual deepfakes is like if you put Hillary Clinton in a bikini and made her hot, that's a sexual deepfake.

    23. ADAndrew Doyle29:23

        Okay.

    24. JRJoe Rogan29:24

        Right? Fraudulent data extraction by an organized group. I think you can still do some of that stuff.

    25. ADAndrew Doyle29:29

        You can put people in bikinis.

    26. JRJoe Rogan29:30

        Yeah, I think you can do that. So, like, if you wanted to take Shaquille O'Neal and put him in a bikini, sh- you could say you're sexualizing him.

    27. ADAndrew Doyle29:37

        Okay. I, I... Yeah. I mean, I guess you can do that.

    28. JRJoe Rogan29:40

        Yeah.

    29. ADAndrew Doyle29:40

        So but that's what- so that'll be why, you know, recently, Keir Starmer, Prime Minister of UK, said he wanted to- or was considering, or not necessarily he was gonna ban X, but it wasn't off the table. It's something like he- [chuckles] as though he's gonna do that. But this is always the excuse, like-

    30. JRJoe Rogan29:54

        Yeah
11. 31:40 – 57:11

    Conspiracy thinking and pattern-seeking: Macron rumors, ‘Black Shakespeare,’ and Laurel Canyon CIA lore

    1. ADAndrew Doyle31:40

       That's actually a really good example, though, isn't it? Of the just m- something so obviously not true, just b- going all over the world-

    2. JRJoe Rogan31:46

       Yes

    3. ADAndrew Doyle31:46

       ... like the, like, in a, in a matter of moments.

    4. JRJoe Rogan31:48

       Is it not true, though?

    5. ADAndrew Doyle31:49

       Well, the, uh, um, Macron's wife is a man.

    6. JRJoe Rogan31:51

       Yeah.

    7. ADAndrew Doyle31:52

       Yeah, that's not true.

    8. JRJoe Rogan31:52

       100%?

    9. ADAndrew Doyle31:53

       Well, uh, you know, the burden of proof is on those [chuckles] who want to say that it is true. I would say that.

    10. JRJoe Rogan31:57

        The reality of the story is weird enough without it being true.

    11. ADAndrew Doyle32:00

        Right.

    12. JRJoe Rogan32:00

        Like, the 40-year-old man and the-

    13. ADAndrew Doyle32:02

        He was... Wasn't she his, his school teacher?

    14. JRJoe Rogan32:04

        She was 40, yeah.

    15. ADAndrew Doyle32:05

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan32:05

        She was 40, if it was, if it, if it is actually a woman. She was 40, and he was 15. That's crazy.

    17. ADAndrew Doyle32:11

        And everyone says, "Well, they're French." That's, that seems to be the-

    18. JRJoe Rogan32:14

        Right

    19. ADAndrew Doyle32:14

        ... that seems to be the thing.

    20. JRJoe Rogan32:15

        What a wild country. [laughing]

    21. ADAndrew Doyle32:16

        That, that's, that's... [laughing] People just say, "That's the way it works in France." Yep, but I, again, look, I would say with all of this stuff, you need some sort of proof. You need so-

    22. JRJoe Rogan32:26

        Right

    23. ADAndrew Doyle32:26

        ... like, when you, when you, wasn't it the Carl Sagan thing about extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? I think that's a pretty safe diktat. The idea that, okay, anything could be true, you know?

    24. JRJoe Rogan32:34

        Right.

    25. ADAndrew Doyle32:34

        Or, you know, there have been crazy conspiracies that turned out to be true, so I'm not... I would never rule anything out. But what I'm saying is, if you're gonna make a claim like that, you better be damn sure you've got really solid evidence about that, right?

    26. JRJoe Rogan32:47

        Yeah. She's got hours-long documentaries on this.

    27. ADAndrew Doyle32:51

        Yeah, and are they-

    28. JRJoe Rogan32:52

        It's-

    29. ADAndrew Doyle32:52

        Are they persuasive?

    30. JRJoe Rogan32:53

        ... so weird. I haven't watched them all.
12. 57:11 – 1:13:13

    Tatiana McGrath, UK creative repression, and why comedians ‘escape’ to the U.S.

    1. ADAndrew Doyle57:11

       ... the, the, uh, so recently... Can I, can I give you an example of that? My, I, um, [lips smack] so I went to, uh, UC Berkeley, the university UC Berkeley in California.

    2. JRJoe Rogan57:21

       They let you leave?

    3. ADAndrew Doyle57:22

       Well, almost not, right?

    4. JRJoe Rogan57:23

       [laughing]

    5. ADAndrew Doyle57:23

       So I... What had happened was, you know, Charlie Kirk's tour was planned to go all the way through, and this was the last date, the Berkeley date. And after his assassination-

    6. JRJoe Rogan57:33

       Oh

    7. ADAndrew Doyle57:33

       ... various people went and did the shows because they said, because Turning Point rightly said, "We're not gonna give an assassin the veto of our tour. We finish the tour." And, uh, Rob Schneider, who I've been working with in Arizona, I've come over here to work with him-

    8. JRJoe Rogan57:46

       The comedian?

    9. ADAndrew Doyle57:47

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan57:47

        Okay.

    11. ADAndrew Doyle57:47

        So, so I've been... This is how I escaped from the UK, I should say. [laughing] Like, so me and Graham Linehan, who you've had on your show-

    12. JRJoe Rogan57:53

        Yes

    13. ADAndrew Doyle57:53

        ... the comedy writer.

    14. JRJoe Rogan57:54

        I love Graham.

    15. ADAndrew Doyle57:54

        My comedy, uh, writing partner and friend, Martin Gourlay, the three of us, we, uh, decided that things were so bad in the UK, uh, we'd rather write and do creative stuff in America. Rob Schneider, who I'd met many years ago, he said, "Come on over. We'll set up a production company." We've been working in Arizona on all these various projects. It's so liberating, and also, it's the middle of the desert, so I fucking love the heat [chuckles] and, you know, you go from England to that, it's kind of-

    16. JRJoe Rogan58:17

        Right

    17. ADAndrew Doyle58:17

        ... it's kind of exciting.

    18. JRJoe Rogan58:18

        Nice contrast.

    19. ADAndrew Doyle58:19

        So, so we've been able to, you know, we... And look, I don't wanna do down the UK or say... But what I will just say is the creative industries there are pretty stagnant. They're not like here. There's so many more ways to-

    20. JRJoe Rogan58:31

        How can you be free?

    21. ADAndrew Doyle58:32

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan58:32

        How can you... If you are worried about going to jail for a meme-

    23. ADAndrew Doyle58:36

        Well, Graham got arrested-

    24. JRJoe Rogan58:37

        ... how can you be free?

    25. ADAndrew Doyle58:37

        ... at the airport-

    26. JRJoe Rogan58:38

        I know, I know

    27. ADAndrew Doyle58:39

        ... by five armed officers.

    28. JRJoe Rogan58:40

        Right after he left this podcast.

    29. ADAndrew Doyle58:42

        Was that it?

    30. JRJoe Rogan58:42

        Yes.
13. 1:13:13 – 1:29:51

    Trans activism backlash and the cost of medicalization: lawsuits, women’s spaces, and gay rights erosion

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:13:13

       Well, I think the problem, the real problem with trying to shove that down people's throats is it creates the opposite reaction.

    2. ADAndrew Doyle1:13:19

       Right. Right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:13:20

       It, it, it creates homophobia, transphobia, and racism. Because, like, it doesn't create it, but it makes them feel like they have a point.

    4. ADAndrew Doyle1:13:28

       ... Well, you've seen recently that the polls regarding gay rights in the US seem to be going down, tumbling, support for gay rights-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:13:36

       Brilliant.

    6. ADAndrew Doyle1:13:36

       Support for gay marriage. We've had, I think, a number of states trying to overturn the, the gay marriage, uh, legislation, and the reason for all of that, I think, is because ga- being gay has been tied to this LGBTQIA identity-obsessed movement that has also involved, uh, the medicalization of kids, sterilization of kids, twerking in front of children-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:13:57

       Yeah

    8. ADAndrew Doyle1:13:57

       ... all of that stuff, and now people are saying, "This is because you gave us gay marriage. This is because you let the gays marry, and because of that-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:14:03

       Mm

    10. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:03

        ... you've allowed all this other stuff. You've opened this box, and everything else has k- has tumbled out," and that's not true. That's not true because the fundamental point about the, uh, about the belief in gender identity is it is fundamentally anti-gay as a principle.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:14:17

        Right.

    12. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:17

        Right? Because what it says is, cl- you know, I know I'm telling you something you already know, but, like, gay-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:14:21

        It's important

    14. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:22

        ... gay rights was predicated on the idea that there's a minority of people in every society who are attracted innately to their own biological sex. If you say biological sex doesn't matter, and actually, you've, you've, you're attracted to a s- a kind of gendered soul, you're attracted to an essence, you're attracted to how someone identifies, well, firstly, you don't know gay people if you think that's the case. They're not, they're not attracted to how you see yourself.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:14:42

        Right. [laughing]

    16. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:42

        [chuckles] They're, they, they, they know... Gay men, I don't wanna be crude, know what a penis is, right?

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:14:47

        Yeah.

    18. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:47

        And, and, and, uh, they know how to sniff one out.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:14:49

        [laughing]

    20. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:49

        Now, I, and I think this idea, this idea-

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:14:53

        Yeah

    22. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:53

        ... that, that they're attracted to the way that you perceive yourself-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:14:55

        Nonsense

    24. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:56

        ... and not only that, then you get, you know, like in Australia at the moment, lesbians are not allowed to gather legally if there's a man who says he's a lesbian and wants to join them. That is against the law in Australia now, so you, you can't do that.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:15:08

        Wait, wait a minute. What do you mean?

    26. ADAndrew Doyle1:15:09

        So, uh, the Australian Human Rights Commission ruled that if you are, if you have an all-female event, right, so like a lesbian gathering maybe-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:15:15

        Mm

    28. ADAndrew Doyle1:15:15

        ... something like that, um, you have to include men who identify as women.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:15:19

        Oh, God!

    30. ADAndrew Doyle1:15:20

        Because otherwise you are discriminating.
14. 1:29:51 – 1:46:29

    AI as gatekeeper: selective deletion, biased models, and historical revisionism in entertainment

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:29:51

       which is a lot of the proponents of a, uh, a, a revising of the beginning of civilization are now pointing to Turkey-

    2. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:01

       Yeah

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:30:01

       ... as opposed to, uh, like, Iraq and, you know-

    4. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:05

       Yeah. Well, the Greeks were everywhere, you know?

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:30:06

       Yeah.

    6. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:06

       So the Mesopotamians and the-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:30:07

       Mm-hmm.

    8. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:08

       I mean, that, that doesn't surprise me. I mean, I, I think the re- the point I was making about Helen of Troy is that even if it's not real, even if it's not history, the myth of Helen of Troy means something quite significant within that story.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:30:18

       Yes.

    10. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:18

        So if you subvert that-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:30:20

        Right

    12. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:21

        ... the, the, the, the fundamental aspects of the story itself doesn't work-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:30:24

        Right

    14. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:24

        ... and you can't buy into the myth.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:30:25

        It's like if you turn the Elephant Man into a handsome fellow with a six-pack.

    16. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:29

        Exactly that.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:30:30

        And so it's repulsive-

    18. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:30

        Don't give them ideas.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:30:31

        Yeah.

    20. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:31

        Don't give them ideas. They'll do that.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:30:32

        Um, can you show me a photograph of an elephant skull? [laughing] It's really kooky. But you see an elephant skull, and you're like, "Oh, I get it."

    22. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:39

        That's why they saw it.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:30:40

        I could totally see you falling for that.

    24. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:42

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:30:42

        You, you look at it, and you go, "What the fuck is that thing?" Like, look at an elephant skull. Isn't it nutty?

    26. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:47

        Oh, completely. Yes.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:30:48

        Yeah.

    28. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:48

        And it's gonna be a big old beast.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:30:50

        Right.

    30. ADAndrew Doyle1:30:50

        So you're gonna think it's a-
15. 1:46:29 – 1:48:47

    Berkeley chaos and “two realities”: debate inside, riots outside

    1. ADAndrew Doyle1:46:29

       ... got onto elephants. Um, but I think that- [laughing]

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:46:32

       [laughing]

    3. ADAndrew Doyle1:46:32

       It was a natural segue, um, because I, because I think this encapsulates all of the stuff you were talking about, which is that I was going to this, basically, Charlie Kirk's tour.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:46:41

       Yes.

    5. ADAndrew Doyle1:46:41

       He was meant to go on. Berkeley was the last date, and, um, Rob Schneider had agreed to do it, and, um, apparently, he'd said to Charlie, "You know, what's the wor- what's the craziest place you could take me to?" And he said, "Berkeley. Berkeley's gonna be the craziest. Let's do that." So he was already booked to do it.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:46:55

       Oh, wow.

    7. ADAndrew Doyle1:46:55

       After what happened with Charlie, uh, Rob asked me if I'd come along as well, and we were... So we'd be on a panel, and I had no idea of the extent of the problem, right? So, uh, and I'm sure you know a lot more than I do. Uh, you know, but I turned up. We were there. We, we turned up, and there were men with guns. We were in, you know, in an SUV under the ground. We got into this venue, and suddenly the security start showing me footage from outside, and people are... It's like a war zone. People are s- throwing smoke bombs. They've- they're, they're trying to crash through the railings. Some guy gets beaten up. He's covered in blood 'cause he was wearing a T-shirt with Turning Point written on it. And I'm suddenly realizing, "You know what? Th- this is a fantasy world that we're now occupying." We're now occupying a world where the people outside think the world is this, and what's going on inside is completely disconnected from it.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:47:41

       Yeah.

    9. ADAndrew Doyle1:47:41

       And I actually found it quite depressing. 'Cause when I was sitting on stage talking to Rob and Peter Boghossian and Frank Turek, these people of completely different viewpoints, we're just having a chat. Outside, they're smashing things, they're screaming, they're saying that fascists have overrun the university.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:47:55

        Yeah.

    11. ADAndrew Doyle1:47:56

        And I'm thinking, just to come back to that point you made about, you know, that need to discuss- for discussion. That experience made me think, actually, now, what's happening is we're like- we're living in two separate worlds at the same time, and we can't see what- we can't see what the other side is, what the, what the intentions of the other side are, and I don't know how you resolve that. I think that's... That, to me, sort of encapsulated the entire problem.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:48:18

        Well, at this point, it's gonna be very difficult to resolve, and I, I honestly think it's gonna take a generation to work through it.

    13. ADAndrew Doyle1:48:25

        But isn't it as simple as l- people learning what the word fascist means, for instance? Like-

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:48:29

        It's not just that. It's like they, they firmly believe that they are trying to fight against something that is going to destroy democracy in this country, which is conservative values.

    15. ADAndrew Doyle1:48:40

        But we had that with the No Kings r- there, so there's a No Kings-

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:48:42

        Mm-hmm

    17. ADAndrew Doyle1:48:43

        ... March, and I couldn't figure that out. I was trying to figure out, what, what are they... This is an elected leader.

16. 1:48:47 – 2:07:35

    Ideological subversion, NGOs, and institutional capture: Yuri Bezmenov and the long march argument

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:48:47

       Well, you know it's all organized, right? You know this is all funded and organized.

    2. ADAndrew Doyle1:48:50

       I don't know.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:48:50

       Okay, it is. So, um, this was Mike Benz's point when he was-

    4. ADAndrew Doyle1:48:56

       Yeah

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:48:56

       ... talking about the defunding of USAID and what they use that money for. NGOs, uh, get a bunch of money, and they, uh, fund a bunch of things, uh, particularly in other countries, where they're essentially making it look like there's these on-the-ground street protests that are very organic.

    6. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:14

       Right.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:49:14

       But it's not. It's very organized, and it's very funded, and the idea is to start chaos.

    8. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:19

       So I've seen people get caught out, people who are clearly being paid, who appear at various different things.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:49:23

       It's not just that, it's-

    10. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:25

        But-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:49:25

        ... it's also email campaigns, it's, um, indoctrinating people into this particular ideology by supporting universities, so you fund it in advance.

    12. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:34

        Yeah, yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:49:34

        So it's like decades of... And this is, uh, uh, y- I'm sure you've seen, um, the Russian guy from 1984 or 1985, Yuri Bezmenov, talking about the-

    14. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:48

        Remind me.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:49:48

        You've never seen it?

    16. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:49

        I don't think I've seen it.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:49:49

        It's a wonderful video because it shows you exactly what happened, how they're gonna introduce Marxism and Leninism into universities, and then it'll indoctrinate children, and then those children will be poisoned, and within one generation, it'll ruin the United States' entire-

    18. ADAndrew Doyle1:50:05

        Yeah

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:50:05

        ... educational system.

    20. ADAndrew Doyle1:50:06

        So that's the Long March idea.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:50:07

        And therefore... Yeah, that's the Long-

    22. ADAndrew Doyle1:50:09

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:50:09

        But l- you should watch a little bit of this-

    24. ADAndrew Doyle1:50:10

        Okay, okay, yeah

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:50:10

        ... 'cause it's, it's crazy. Because back then, I remember the 1980s, every- that would be a crazy idea. No, universities are where people have free thought and discussion. It's very important.

    26. ADAndrew Doyle1:50:21

        Yeah, yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:50:22

        You know, and I, I was in a very left-leaning place at the time. I was living in-

    28. ADAndrew Doyle1:50:25

        Where were you?

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:50:26

        ... Boston, you know?

    30. ADAndrew Doyle1:50:27

        Okay.
17. 2:07:35 – 2:25:23

    Europe’s censorship trajectory: EU ‘prebunking,’ UK Online Safety, and policing non-crime hate

    1. ADAndrew Doyle2:07:35

       The, so the EU, the head of the EU Commission is Ursula von der Leyen. Did you hear her s-

    2. JRJoe Rogan2:07:39

       Great name, by the way.

    3. ADAndrew Doyle2:07:40

       Well, yeah, it's a, it's a sexy name, right?

    4. JRJoe Rogan2:07:41

       Yeah.

    5. ADAndrew Doyle2:07:42

       [laughing] It's-

    6. JRJoe Rogan2:07:44

       It's hot.

    7. ADAndrew Doyle2:07:44

       She's unelected. The, the, the, the European Commission is an unelected body that sets the legislative agenda of all these European countries. Absolutely crazy. You can't vote them out. She did a speech-

    8. JRJoe Rogan2:07:54

       [exhales]

    9. ADAndrew Doyle2:07:54

       ... last May, where she said, and I'm not joking about this, she said that, um, uh, "misinformation was like a virus, and you need to inoculate yourself against the virus." And the phrase she used is, uh, not debunking, prebunking. So prebunking is her idea of what you do with misinformation. What she means is censorship.

    10. JRJoe Rogan2:08:11

        [groans]

    11. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:12

        She... But prebunking is the most sinister-

    12. JRJoe Rogan2:08:14

        That's crazy

    13. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:15

        ... chilly, like, if you were to say, "I'm gonna come up with the most Orwellian, sort of dark lord, [chuckles] kind of Sith-"

    14. JRJoe Rogan2:08:21

        Prebunking.

    15. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:22

        Prebunking.

    16. JRJoe Rogan2:08:23

        Yeah, that's like fucking Minority Report, right?

    17. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:25

        Like, I don't know what-

    18. JRJoe Rogan2:08:26

        Pre-crime.

    19. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:26

        I don't know what the... 'Cause I, I know that there's, there's this, uh, free speech debate opening up between the US and the, and the, and Europe generally. Like, you know, when JD Vance came over to Munich and gave that talk to all the European leaders and said, "You've got to stop censoring your people. You've got to stop running away from voters," and they were shocked.

    20. JRJoe Rogan2:08:42

        Yeah.

    21. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:42

        And they were horrified, but he was dead right.

    22. JRJoe Rogan2:08:43

        He's dead right.

    23. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:44

        And he should- And you know what? People on the left should a- admit that he's dead right as well.

    24. JRJoe Rogan2:08:48

        Yeah.

    25. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:48

        But there's something about Europe, right? There's something about... Like, I think over here, coming over here, I, I get the sense that even if most left-leaning people, as well as right-leaning people, do value free speech as a kind of shared value, and in Europe, it's not that. There, there's a real sense of, "We can't trust the masses."... 'cause I know that the EU is, is seen as this big lefty thing, which it absolutely is not. The EU is a body that wants to censor its citizens. It's a body that tells people: "You can have a referendum, but if you get it wrong, we're gonna make you vote again." It's not a democratic organization. So no wonder Vance is sort of, and Trump, is at, at loggerheads with this body, 'cause you've got these- We, in the UK, have a authoritarian leader, Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister.

    26. JRJoe Rogan2:09:30

        Yeah.

    27. ADAndrew Doyle2:09:31

        He couldn't be further away from the American ideal of free speech. He introduced this Online Safety Bill, which is basically to- This is why a lot of tweets in the UK, if you go over to the UK now, a lot of the tweets will come up and say, "This is potentially harmful content, so we're screening it out." Uh, he... You know, they're trying to get rid of juries-

    28. JRJoe Rogan2:09:48

        Yeah

    29. ADAndrew Doyle2:09:48

        ... for certain trials.

    30. JRJoe Rogan2:09:49

        They did get rid of juries.

Episode duration: 2:39:41