Joe Rogan Experience #2448 - Andrew Doyle

1. 0:00 – 0:02

   Intro

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:02 – 1:54

   Six-year check-in and Doyle’s thesis: woke as a recurring authoritarian impulse

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music] Yes, Andrew.

   4. ADAndrew Doyle0:13

      Hello.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Good to see you, brother.

   6. ADAndrew Doyle0:15

      Good to see you, too.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Um, it has been, you said, six years almost to the day-

   8. ADAndrew Doyle0:19

      Almost to the day

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      ... last time. So-

   10. ADAndrew Doyle0:20

       Lots changed. [chuckles]

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       Right before everything went crazy.

   12. ADAndrew Doyle0:23

       That's it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:24

       Right before.

   14. ADAndrew Doyle0:25

       Yeah, the whole world sort of shifted after that.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       'Cause everything went kooky around March, right?

   16. ADAndrew Doyle0:28

       Yeah, so it was February 2020, and then, then we have COVID, and then we have... You know, we've had Trump in between of that. We had BLM. That summer of 2020, everything just exploded and went a bit mad.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       Yeah.

   18. ADAndrew Doyle0:37

       And, um, yeah, and then everything shifted, so-

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       And then you wrote a book.

   20. ADAndrew Doyle0:41

       I wrote a book.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       It's called The End of Woke: How the Culture War Went Too Far and What to Expect from the Counter-Revolution. Isn't that how it always goes, though? It goes like, we go too far-

   22. ADAndrew Doyle0:52

       Yeah

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       ... and then we overcorrect, and we become Nazis.

   24. ADAndrew Doyle0:55

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       Or [laughing] --

   26. ADAndrew Doyle0:56

       That's it, exactly. [laughing] Well, you know-

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       Or it's, or it's the opposite: we go socialist.

   28. ADAndrew Doyle1:01

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       You know, it's-

   30. ADAndrew Doyle1:01

       It's a big pendulum. I get that. It sort of goes back and forth. I mean, I was trying to s- in that book, I was-- I'm trying to make the point that what woke was, was like a kind of the latest manifestation of an, a kind of innate authoritarian impulse. I think human beings are, by default, quite, uh, inclined towards just shutting people up if they don't like them.
3. 1:54 – 5:04

   Language as the Trojan horse: equity, inclusion, and “gender-affirming care”

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:54

      Well, authoritarianism, authoritarianism, it snuck in through, uh, a sheep costume.

   2. ADAndrew Doyle2:00

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:01

      You know, it was-

   4. ADAndrew Doyle2:01

      A wolf in a sheep's costume.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:02

      Yeah, it was a, it was a costume of being more inclusive, being more open-minded-

   6. ADAndrew Doyle2:08

      Right

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:08

      ... being a better society, being kinder, you know?

   8. ADAndrew Doyle2:12

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:12

      It, it, it led to, you know, child trans surgeries. It led to chaos. It led to, like, a lot of, like, really fucking freaky things that you'd have never expected. People, people saying that the First Amendment's not important.

   10. ADAndrew Doyle2:24

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:25

       What's more important is protecting people, like-

   12. ADAndrew Doyle2:27

       Well, that was the key, wasn't it? The point was that, [clears throat] the way it worked was that it was gulling people through language that sounded-

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:32

       Yeah

   14. ADAndrew Doyle2:33

       ... pretty sweet and kittenish-

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:34

       Yes

   16. ADAndrew Doyle2:35

       ... and fluffy. You know, things like equity. Well, that sounds a lot like equality, doesn't it?

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:39

       Right.

   18. ADAndrew Doyle2:39

       But it, it doesn't mean equality. It means treating people unequally to ensure, uh, equal outcomes according to group identity. That's a very different thing. You say you're talking about, "Let's make everything inclusive," but what you really mean is, "Let's exclude anyone who disagrees with what we've got to say."

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:54

       Right.

   20. ADAndrew Doyle2:54

       So you're using language to mean the exact opposite. They say gender-affirming care, but do they mean that? Or do they mean affirming what is effectively a pseudoscientific belief among vulnerable people? So it's, it's all about misusing language because most people, I think, or I like to think, are pretty decent.

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:10

       Yeah.

   22. ADAndrew Doyle3:11

       Like, most people want to be kind and want to be fair, and when you hear these activists saying, "Be kind, be compassionate, or else," right? [laughing]

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:18

       [chuckles] Yeah.

   24. ADAndrew Doyle3:19

       You know, they- you kind of think, "Okay, well, maybe their intentions are good, but also, they're pretty scary." I mean, there's, there's a, there's a weird... There was a weird thing with the woke thing, which was that, on the one hand, it proclaimed to be this sort of great, virtuous, kind, uh, progressive, right side of history. How often did you hear that phrase?

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:36

       Right.

   26. ADAndrew Doyle3:37

       And at the same time, they're like dangerous dogs. Like, you're, you're, you're like, "I better not piss them off. I better not say the wrong thing in the workplace, 'cause they'll des- [chuckles] they'll destroy you."

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:46

       Well, I always find that the most preposterous the idea is and the, the least capable it is to stand up to scrutiny, the more violent the enforcement of that idea will be.

   28. ADAndrew Doyle3:58

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:59

       Because you cannot combat that. You, you can't defend that idea with logic, so you have to defend it with fear and force-

   30. ADAndrew Doyle4:05

       Yeah
4. 5:04 – 8:56

   UK speech policing: arrests for posts, ‘grossly offensive’ laws, and the banter ban

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:04

      ... you can get away with a lot of crazy shit. Like, the, first of all, like, we should explain what we're talking about.

   2. ADAndrew Doyle5:10

      Mm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:10

      There's more than 12,000 people have been arrested in the UK in the past year for social media posts, and if you read some of those social media posts, they're not even remotely terrifying. It's not like, "I'm going to grab a knife and go cut the head off of every immigrant I see."

   4. ADAndrew Doyle5:28

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:28

      Like, "Hey, buddy, maybe we should lock this guy up and evaluate him. He sounds like a crazy person." Like, "No, the immigrants are coming into this fucking country and creating all this crime." Knock on the door-

   6. ADAndrew Doyle5:37

      Yeah

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:37

      ... you're going to jail.

   8. ADAndrew Doyle5:38

      I worry that Americans think we're mad [chuckles] sometimes. I think-

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:42

      We do.

   10. ADAndrew Doyle5:42

       Yeah. Do you? We do.

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:43

       We do now, yeah. We think you've lost it.

   12. ADAndrew Doyle5:44

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:45

       We th- well, we also think something happened where your leaders are intentionally trying to tank your country. It seems like they're trying to bring in as many migrants as possible, um, cater to them, not to the British people, and do it openly-

   14. ADAndrew Doyle6:02

       Yeah

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:02

       ... so that everyone knows what they're doing and then create chaos on the streets because of it.

   16. ADAndrew Doyle6:06

       Yeah, I mean, people have a phrase for that, anarcho-tyranny, you know, where you, where you punish people who aren't breaking the law-

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:11

       Yeah

   18. ADAndrew Doyle6:11

       ... but you, but you protect those who are. And-

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:13

       Right

   20. ADAndrew Doyle6:13

       ... I, I think with the... I mean-... I don't know the extent that Americans know the- I mean, the stat you quoted, that came from the Times newspaper in London, which did a Freedom Infor- Information request to the police. Found out that it's 12,000 a year on average, so that's, like, 30 a day, not just being investigated or looked into, but being arrested.

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:31

       But over the last few years only. If you go back-

   22. ADAndrew Doyle6:33

       Yeah

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:33

       ... it's only, like, 1,000 or 500.

   24. ADAndrew Doyle6:37

       It was-

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:37

       It's-

   26. ADAndrew Doyle6:37

       It was 3,000, uh, back, last time we spoke, back in 2020. 3,000-

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:40

       Was it really a year?

   28. ADAndrew Doyle6:41

       Yeah, it was. It was.

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:41

       Back then?

   30. ADAndrew Doyle6:42

       Yeah.
5. 8:56 – 12:27

   Memes, retweets, and prison: specific UK cases that illustrate the threshold problem

   1. ADAndrew Doyle8:56

      The example I was going to give, uh, was this, um, guy called Darren Brady, and this sounds made up, and whenever I tell people this, it sounds made up. He, um, posted a meme. I don't know if you saw this meme, where it was the four progress pride flags. You know, that's got the crazy triangles and stuff in it?

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:11

      Uh-huh. And you put them all together, and they become a swastika.

   3. ADAndrew Doyle9:13

      Exactly that, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:14

      Yeah.

   5. ADAndrew Doyle9:14

      And that was going everywhere.

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:15

      Yeah.

   7. ADAndrew Doyle9:15

      And he posted it, and there's a video of him being arrested, put in handcuffs. He's an Army veteran, by the way, right? Put in handcuffs-

   8. JRJoe Rogan9:20

      [exhales]

   9. ADAndrew Doyle9:21

      ... by the police, and the policeman says in the video, "You caused someone anxiety." So the, the actual language from the law [laughs] is being used for this rearrangement of the... And you know what? That's quite a good satirical point-

   10. JRJoe Rogan9:33

       Yeah

   11. ADAndrew Doyle9:33

       ... that he was making. It wasn't even his meme. He was just retweeting a meme. But even if it was some horrible, offensive thing, who cares?

   12. JRJoe Rogan9:40

       How is-

   13. ADAndrew Doyle9:41

       And-

   14. JRJoe Rogan9:41

       ... that offensive?

   15. ADAndrew Doyle9:42

       [clears throat]

   16. JRJoe Rogan9:42

       But I guess, I mean, well, you could find... That's the problem. You could find anything offensive.

   17. ADAndrew Doyle9:46

       Mm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan9:47

       You could find anything grossly offensive if you're extremely sensitive.

   19. ADAndrew Doyle9:52

       You could. And, but wasn't there a point to that? I mean, he was kind of saying that the LGBTQIA+ -

   20. JRJoe Rogan9:58

       [clears throat]

   21. ADAndrew Doyle9:58

       ... movement has become quite authoritarian.

   22. JRJoe Rogan10:00

       Yeah.

   23. ADAndrew Doyle10:01

       He's not saying they're actual Nazis, and he's saying, "Oh, isn't it quite funny that when you put them together, it looks like a, it looks like a swastika?" The idea that you get handcuffed for that-

   24. JRJoe Rogan10:08

       Yeah

   25. ADAndrew Doyle10:08

       ... to me, is crazy.

   26. JRJoe Rogan10:08

       Especially for a retweet. That's crazy.

   27. ADAndrew Doyle10:10

       Yeah. Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan10:11

       That's crazy.

   29. ADAndrew Doyle10:12

       It's retweets, it's tweets, it's posts. Uh, we've had... Memes are the big one. So there was a guy called Lee Joseph Dunn, who went to prison for eight weeks, that was last year, I think, for three memes that he posted.

   30. JRJoe Rogan10:23

       Eight weeks?
6. 12:27 – 16:51

   Incitement standards: Brandenburg test vs UK offense-based enforcement (Lucy Connolly case)

   1. ADAndrew Doyle12:27

      And I guess it all comes down to this view, which I think is completely wrong, that words and violence are the same thing, uh, that words can create a more violent society, that there's a direct causal link between the stuff that people say and the stuff that people say online to how people behave in the real world. And I think you guys have got it right, 'cause you've got the Brandenburg test. Do you know about the, the, the, the test for incitement to violence in the US?

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:50

      No, what is that?

   3. ADAndrew Doyle12:51

      It's, it's basically a test that was established, I think, back in the '60s. Uh, it was a KKK leader called Clarence Brandenburg, who was prosecuted for incitement to violence. And the test was, that was established since that precedent, was that any words, uh, that can be convicted for incitement to violence, they have to be intended to cause violence, likely to cause violence, and the violence must be imminent. And if you satisfy those, that, that threshold, you can be prosecuted in the US for incitement to violence. So it'd be like, kind of, imagine a demagogue surrounded by all his fans, whipping up a frenzy-

   4. JRJoe Rogan13:22

      Right

   5. ADAndrew Doyle13:22

      ... and then pointing to a guy on the front row and saying, "Kill him now." That would qualify for the Brandenburg test.

   6. JRJoe Rogan13:28

      Right.

   7. ADAndrew Doyle13:28

      But in the UK, because we don't have that test, all we've got is whether people found it offensive. That's the, that's the difference of the threshold. So it's a, it's a massive difference between what the US has and what the UK has.

   8. JRJoe Rogan13:40

      Massive.

   9. ADAndrew Doyle13:41

      It's insane. I mean, to give the most r- obvious recent example, 'cause I don't know if people know about this, there's a woman called Lucy Connolly in the UK. Uh, I don't know if this was reported over here at all. Do you remember we had all these riots last year during the summer when, uh, against hotels which were housing asylum seekers, and people were setting fire to them? There were genuinely racist stuff going on, right, during those riots, and this was off the back of a guy who'd murdered a bunch of little girls in a dance class. And there were rumors going around that this was an asylum seeker, right? And this one woman, a mother, who'd lost her daughter, very sensitive about the idea of, um... Lucy Connolly, she's very sensitive about the idea of loss of kids. She tweeted in an ang- in a fit of anger, "Go and burn down all the hotels for all I care. Uh, if that makes me racist, so be it. And take the government with you." Something like that. And she deleted it within a couple of hours. She went out, walked her dog, she deleted it, and she thought, "I really w- that's not me. That's not who I am." Deleted it. [sniffs] Police came, went to court, sentenced to 31 months in prison for that deleted, swiftly deleted tweet, and she served over a year.

   10. JRJoe Rogan14:46

       Oh, my God!

   11. ADAndrew Doyle14:47

       Now, I'm not saying the tweet was nice [chuckles] right? The tweet was a horrible tweet, and she says it was a horrible tweet, that's why she deleted it. But because we don't have that Brandenburg test, we don't have a test for incitement to violence... 'Cause the key is, that tweet, there was no way it could have... She was a nobody. You know, she wasn't someone with influence. She didn't have many followers.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:05

       [exhales]

   13. ADAndrew Doyle15:05

       Um, she- no one was going to read that and go and act upon it. And if they did, that would be on them, right? Because-

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:13

       Yeah

   15. ADAndrew Doyle15:14

       ... this is a myth. This myth that people act on cue to what they read online-

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:18

       Well, it-

   17. ADAndrew Doyle15:18

       It isn't real

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:18

       ... it influences people, for sure. But at, at what point are you required to have sovereignty over your own mind and your own actions?

   19. ADAndrew Doyle15:29

       Yeah. Well, I think what it does is it raises the temperature, particularly when political leaders do it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:34

       Right, but w- when political... But my point is, like, it's not gonna incite you to violence. It's not going to incite me to violence. So who are we talking about?

   21. ADAndrew Doyle15:43

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:43

       This is part of the thing, is, like, they're protecting the dumbest members of society. This is like the thing about banning, you know, crazy talk online. If you're talking about witches or, you know, whatever it is-

   23. ADAndrew Doyle15:55

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

   24. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       ... flat Earth. Like, y- we have to stop misinformation. But from, from who? It's not working on you, right?

   25. ADAndrew Doyle16:01

       Yes, um-

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       You don't believe it, so who are we protecting? We're protecting the dumbest people?

   27. ADAndrew Doyle16:06

       Also, aren't you kind of letting them off?

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:07

       Mm.

   29. ADAndrew Doyle16:07

       Like, if, if someone goes and commits an act of violence and said, "Oh, I did it because someone told me to do it," aren't you kind of letting them off the hook?

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:13

       Right. Exactly.
7. 16:51 – 23:58

   Media manipulation and narrative persistence: BBC edits, Trump coverage, and ‘truth’ erosion

   1. JRJoe Rogan16:51

      Well, this was the argument with Trump for January 6th.

   2. ADAndrew Doyle16:55

      Right. Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:55

      And that's why the BBC edited his speech to make it look as if that's what he was saying.

   4. ADAndrew Doyle17:00

      Do you s- you saw that clip, right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:01

      Oh, my God, it's fucking crazy.

   6. ADAndrew Doyle17:03

      I, I mean, I've been saying for a long time, the BBC has a real... Like, what I will say in the BBC's defense, is they've always been pretty good at being party politically neutral. Like, they will, uh, interrogate someone on the, the right and someone on the left in a pretty neutral way. They don't... They, I think they do pretty good. I know people will be annoyed at me for saying that, but I think they do.

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:22

      Mm.

   8. ADAndrew Doyle17:22

      But I think in terms of the ideology, the woke ideology, they got captured. They have a thing at the BBC called the LGBT desk, or they had it up until recently, which could veto any news story, which meant that any story that was slightly critical of transactivism or, or anything like that, just didn't get reported. So I'm not surprised that the BBC have a-

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:40

      They gave them veto power?

   10. ADAndrew Doyle17:42

       They gave them veto power, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:43

       That's crazy.

   12. ADAndrew Doyle17:44

       This all came out in a report, quite a recent report, just a few months ago, which led to the resignation of Tim Davie, the director general, and he resigned ostensibly because of that Trump clip, which by the way, that wasn't the first time they did it. There, there was another clip about a year or a year before, in a different program, that did the same thing. Took the clip, re-edited it, and made it look like he had said something he absolutely had not said. So I think the, uh, the, the BBC quite obviously has a, an ideological bias, if not a party political bias.

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:12

       But that's more than a bias.

   14. ADAndrew Doyle18:14

       Well, it's misleading, right?

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:15

       Yeah.

   16. ADAndrew Doyle18:15

       It's, it's-

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:16

       It's completely deceptive. You're, you're editing something and cha- I mean, you... They took out a giant chunk of his speech.

   18. ADAndrew Doyle18:23

       Yeah. Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan18:24

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   20. ADAndrew Doyle19:28

       They leapt, like, 45 minutes or something.

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:30

       Right.

   22. ADAndrew Doyle19:30

       Like, so he said-

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:31

       Something crazy like that.

   24. ADAndrew Doyle19:32

       Yeah, he said s- it made him look like he was saying, "Go and-

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:34

       Exactly

   26. ADAndrew Doyle19:34

       ... commit the, the crime."

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:36

       Exactly.

   28. ADAndrew Doyle19:36

       Yeah, exactly.

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:36

       And instead, he, he was i- in tongue-in-cheek, talking about the very fine senator, that they're doing a great job, the f- senators and congresspeople-

   30. ADAndrew Doyle19:46

       Yeah
8. 23:58 – 1:03:48

   Free speech realignment: ACLU’s reversal, debate as the antidote, and the loss of discourse

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:58

      ... [exhales] This is so dangerous, and the idea that the left doesn't recognize that, which are the people that have always been in support of free speech. It's never been a right-wing thing to support free speech-

   2. ADAndrew Doyle24:10

      Right

   3. JRJoe Rogan24:10

      ... until now.

   4. ADAndrew Doyle24:11

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan24:11

      It's always been a left-wing thing. When I was a kid, it was a- famously the case of the ADL defending Nazis having the right to protest, and saying, "Look, we, we, we think what they're saying is abhorrent, but it's very important that you get the right to say whatever you feel, and then the way to combat that is with much better, more concise speech that's much more logical and makes sense."

   6. ADAndrew Doyle24:32

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan24:32

      "And this is what you do. This is what debate is for. This is, this is... We sh- we've always known this."

   8. ADAndrew Doyle24:36

      Yeah, but, I mean, I, I agree. I'm so dispirited by that, that very thing that you've identified, that the left used to be about this. The left used to be all about... I mean, that example you mentioned of, of, uh, Skokie, wasn't it, in Chicago, the, the Nazis marching through Skokie, and the ACLU saying-... we're, you know, we're defending this. There was a book by a guy called Ian Neya, who was the head of the ACLU, called Defending My Enemy.

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:56

      Yeah, it wasn't the ADL, it was the ACLU, right?

   10. ADAndrew Doyle24:58

       It was the ACLU, and, and, and he was saying, um, you know, he's, he- you know, he's Jewish. He's got, uh, he- family members who died in the Holocaust-

   11. JRJoe Rogan25:05

       Right

   12. ADAndrew Doyle25:05

       ... but he's writing a book saying, "I'm defending neo-Nazis' right to free speech, not because I support them, but because I don't. And I want to defend the principle whereby I can tackle them, and that's speech."

   13. JRJoe Rogan25:15

       Right.

   14. ADAndrew Doyle25:15

       So the, the, in other words, the, the principle is so much bigger. I mean, the thing that I think has been lost... And now, by the way, the ACLU complete about-turn. I mean, there was a, a lawyer for the ACLU tweeting about how he wanted Abigail Shrier's book banned, and he said, "This is the hill I will die on." [snorts] You know, that's a guy called Chase- or was it a guy? I think it's a trans activist called Chase something, I can't remember. Anyway, but, but the point is, how far have you fallen? When it comes to these free speech issues, left or right, it's nothing to do with it. It's, it, it should be about this principle of- d- it's not whether you agree with what they're saying and the substance of what they're saying, it's whether you want the principle intact, and that principle applies to us all. The very same principle that allows the Nazis to say all their crazy stuff is the principle that allows us to ch- to challenge it, to, to, to tackle it.

   15. JRJoe Rogan25:58

       Well, it's, it's a very short-term win.

   16. ADAndrew Doyle26:01

       Right, right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:01

       And it's basically they're playing chess, and they decided, "I want that rook no matter what."

   18. ADAndrew Doyle26:05

       Right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:05

       And then they just sacrificed their queen. Like, look what you've done. Look what you've done for this short-term victory. You're essentially tanking civilization for a decade-

   20. ADAndrew Doyle26:14

       Yeah

   21. JRJoe Rogan26:14

       ... where we have to sort this out and, like, but wa- let the ship wash itself back and forth until it rights.

   22. ADAndrew Doyle26:21

       Yeah, so how, how, and how do you ensure that it's not gonna happen to you? Like, I think about that. There was a national conservative conference in Brussels about a year and a half ago. The local mayor said, "I don't like this," and he had the police rush it, shut it down, and you had mainstream right-wing figures like Nigel Farage, Suella Braverman.

   23. JRJoe Rogan26:37

       [exhales]

   24. ADAndrew Doyle26:37

       How do they not think, "Hang on a minute, if we establish that precedent, where you can just shut down your political opponents through the use of police force, how will that not rebound on me? How will that not happen to us?"

   25. JRJoe Rogan26:47

       Well, this is the argument that they're using right now for Trump going after his political opponents.

   26. ADAndrew Doyle26:51

       Right, right, 'cause they opened that Pandora's box, right?

   27. JRJoe Rogan26:53

       Right. You guys did that with him.

   28. ADAndrew Doyle26:55

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan26:55

       You're, you're... And everybody was saying how damn dangerous it is.

   30. ADAndrew Doyle26:59

       Yeah.
9. 1:03:48 – 1:07:53

   AI and censorship-by-design: disappearing search results, prudish filters, and ‘bias in the machine’

   1. ADAndrew Doyle1:03:48

      But don't you worry about that? I mean, like, AI... Oh, a good example of that: I was, uh, just- I use AI mostly as a search engine. 'Cause what's great about it is you can say, "Oh, I read an article, like, 10 years ago that said something like this-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:03:58

      Yes

   3. ADAndrew Doyle1:03:59

      ... and it will find it, and you'd never find that on Google.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:04:01

      Right.

   5. ADAndrew Doyle1:04:01

      And I was trying to find this article. It was for my book, actually. There was a, there was a, a case in the UK where a, uh, a guy had raped a 13-year-old girl, but because he was, um, he was Muslim, and he'd gone to a madrassa, and the judge let him off jail time and said, "You were very sexually naive. You didn't understand." Uh, the guy was saying, "Oh, I, I thought women were nothing and like a lollipop you dropped on the floor," and the judge let him off jail time. And I thought, "This is quite extreme."

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:04:24

      Mm.

   7. ADAndrew Doyle1:04:24

      And I could- I found it. It came up on ChatGPT, and then it deleted. And I said, "Um, oh, uh, I think you just deleted the information for me. It's in the public domain. Why did you do that?" It said, "Oh, uh, you know, it's fine. It might violate my terms of service." And I said, "Well, how could it? This is an article that's in the public domain." So it gave me the information again, deleted it again. I said, "You keep deleting this, stop it." It said, "I definitely won't delete it," then it did the same again. So what it's doing is it's saying, "Because this is a news story that could be deemed anti-immigrant, or this is a news story that is politically sensitive, I'm not gonna let you see it." So-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:04:55

      Was this in America, you were doing this?

   9. ADAndrew Doyle1:04:57

      UK.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:04:58

       Oh.

   11. ADAndrew Doyle1:04:59

       Is that-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:04:59

       I wonder if you could do it in America. Let's find out. Let's try... Well, let's try Perplexity. Put that into Perplexity, see if... I, I doubt that Perplexity would-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:05:06

       I have to find the article he was using, and then I don't know what article he looked up.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:05:09

       Well, why don't you just ask the question that he asked?

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:05:11

       I don't know. It was 10 years ago.

   16. ADAndrew Doyle1:05:13

       So it's a, it's, it's a story about, uh, a-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:05:15

       Yeah, this is gonna take a minute.

   18. ADAndrew Doyle1:05:16

       That will take [laughing] that take a while to-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:05:17

       Will it?

   20. ADAndrew Doyle1:05:18

       It-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:05:18

       How, uh... I mean-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:05:19

       Maybe he didn't do it 10 years ago, he did it recently.

   23. ADAndrew Doyle1:05:22

       No, no, it was a story-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:05:23

       I think he found the-

   25. ADAndrew Doyle1:05:23

       It's a story from years ago

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:05:24

       ... he was looking for something from the past.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:05:24

       Right, but you found it with ChatGPT, which is obviously recently.

   28. ADAndrew Doyle1:05:27

       I found, I found a Daily Mail article about it, so it's on public domain, it's there, but it just, it just, it didn't want me to find the fact that it had decided wasn't good for me to find.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:05:37

       Right.

   30. ADAndrew Doyle1:05:37

       So-
10. 1:07:53 – 1:13:13

    Identity politics in art: ‘race-swapped’ history, hyperrealism breaks, and audience backlash

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:07:53

       But, I mean, it- we're nearing a time in America where white people are not the majority anymore. So at what point in time does that stop, and we just call people what they are, just people?

    2. ADAndrew Doyle1:08:04

       But doesn't it bother you a bit that... The, the, the thing about that kind of thing is this, as I said, this i- obsession with group identity, which is so of our time-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:08:13

       Yeah

    4. ADAndrew Doyle1:08:13

       ... what it now actually means is re- the revision of history.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:08:16

       Mm-hmm.

    6. ADAndrew Doyle1:08:16

       If you're going to revise history and say, "Oh, actually..." You know, you've seen all these sort of period dramas set in England. There was a Black Anne Boleyn, as though Henry VIII would have married a Black woman. No, he wouldn't. Uh, you know, the-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:08:26

       What if she was hot? [laughs]

    8. ADAndrew Doyle1:08:28

       She was a very attractive woman. Hey, I, I'm not mocking her or knocking her.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:08:31

       But back then-

    10. ADAndrew Doyle1:08:32

        What I'm saying is, you can do anything with color-blind cast. Color-blind casting has never really particularly bothered me, but it's when you are in a... If you're playing hyperrealism-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:08:40

        Yeah

    12. ADAndrew Doyle1:08:40

        ... if you're playing verisimilitude, you want people to buy into the reality of it, and you're suddenly populating Edwardian England or pre-Edwardian England as an ethnically diverse place, which it wasn't. I'm not saying Black people weren't there, but they were very, very, a, a very small minority.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:08:53

        Isn't that a problem in the new Odyssey?

    14. ADAndrew Doyle1:08:55

        Uh, Helen of Troy is Black. Uh, well, I say that, I just saw it online, so I might be being tricked by someone making something up. Uh, you know, I caveat that. I think Helen of Troy is Black in the new Odyssey.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:09:06

        Well, let's find out.

    16. ADAndrew Doyle1:09:07

        Um, can we check that one? G- but you-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:09:11

        Wow.

    18. ADAndrew Doyle1:09:11

        All right, if it's true, I'll tell you why I think that's ridiculous, right?

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:09:14

        Well, how, how far do we have to swing the pendulum until Roots is redone with white people? [laughs]

    20. ADAndrew Doyle1:09:19

        [laughs] Can you imagine? Or an all-Black Schindler's List.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:09:22

        Right. Right, right.

    22. ADAndrew Doyle1:09:23

        Can you imagine? That was Helen of Troy.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:09:25

        Helen of Troy to be portrayed by a Black actress in new Odyssey movie.

    24. ADAndrew Doyle1:09:28

        And look, I'm sure she's very talented. I'm not knocking her, but the thing about the Greek... The thing about Helen of Troy, who probably didn't exist, I mean, even the Greeks knew she probably didn't even exist. She's a myth. She's a- she's the epitome of Greek beauty. She's like the, uh... She, she's, she's described all the time in the ancient texts as fair and blonde, and, and, uh, they're ha- they're, they're reaching for an ideal of beauty. That's why they went to war, because of this woman. So they wouldn't choose what they used to call an Ethiop. The Greeks had a word for it, the Black African people. They wouldn't choose a, an icon of cultural beauty from a different culture. They wouldn't have done that, you know? Uh, it's all very well saying Greeks and Mediterranean people and Greek, you know, would have been, wouldn't-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:10:04

        Yeah

    26. ADAndrew Doyle1:10:04

        ... have been pure white. But Helen of a Troy is a very specific... And it's actually quite important to the, to the plot. And, and, and again, if you're doing a... Look, for instance, when they did the all-Black Wizard of Oz, The Wiz, I imagine that in the late '60s would have been quite radical, and fun, and wow, I can't believe they did that. That's brilliant. But doing it now, it's really boring because everyone is doing it. It's so banal. It's basically saying, "Group identity is everything, and you, you people can't be racist, and so therefore, we're going to do this."

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:10:32

        Yeah.

    28. ADAndrew Doyle1:10:32

        But it sometimes throws you out of the... Uh, actually, I'll tell you the worst example. Did you ever see Darkest Hour, the Winston Churchill film?

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:10:38

        No.

    30. ADAndrew Doyle1:10:39

        So you know, obviously, he took on Parliament. He said, "We're not going to appease Hitler." Um, there's a scene in the film, Gary Oldman plays him. He goes down into the Tube, the Underground, and he's wrestling with his conscience, and there's loads of Black people on the Tube. There's white people, too, but there's loads of Black people, and they, the public convince him, "No, you, you need to stand up for Hitler." [chuckles] Now, we know that Churchill wasn't... was a bit of a racist, [laughs] didn't really like the, the, you know, fine. He was of his time. I'm not saying anything more than that. He was of his time, but that, it was so unreal. It was so unreal. It was so- it was almost like the filmmakers were, were saying, "Racism's never been a problem in the UK." Well, actually, it has.
11. 1:13:13 – 2:11:57

    Gender ideology, gay rights reversal, and women’s spaces: Australia cases and medical lawsuits

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:13:13

       Well, I think the problem, the real problem with trying to shove that down people's throats is it creates the opposite reaction.

    2. ADAndrew Doyle1:13:19

       Right. Right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:13:20

       It, it, it creates homophobia, transphobia, and racism. Because, like, it doesn't create it, but it makes them feel like they have a point.

    4. ADAndrew Doyle1:13:28

       ... Well, you've seen recently that the polls regarding gay rights in the US seem to be going down, tumbling, support for gay rights-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:13:36

       Brilliant.

    6. ADAndrew Doyle1:13:36

       Support for gay marriage. We've had, I think, a number of states trying to overturn the, the gay marriage, uh, legislation, and the reason for all of that, I think, is because ga- being gay has been tied to this LGBTQIA identity-obsessed movement that has also involved, uh, the medicalization of kids, sterilization of kids, twerking in front of children-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:13:57

       Yeah

    8. ADAndrew Doyle1:13:57

       ... all of that stuff, and now people are saying, "This is because you gave us gay marriage. This is because you let the gays marry, and because of that-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:14:03

       Mm

    10. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:03

        ... you've allowed all this other stuff. You've opened this box, and everything else has k- has tumbled out," and that's not true. That's not true because the fundamental point about the, uh, about the belief in gender identity is it is fundamentally anti-gay as a principle.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:14:17

        Right.

    12. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:17

        Right? Because what it says is, cl- you know, I know I'm telling you something you already know, but, like, gay-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:14:21

        It's important

    14. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:22

        ... gay rights was predicated on the idea that there's a minority of people in every society who are attracted innately to their own biological sex. If you say biological sex doesn't matter, and actually, you've, you've, you're attracted to a s- a kind of gendered soul, you're attracted to an essence, you're attracted to how someone identifies, well, firstly, you don't know gay people if you think that's the case. They're not, they're not attracted to how you see yourself.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:14:42

        Right. [laughing]

    16. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:42

        [chuckles] They're, they, they, they know... Gay men, I don't wanna be crude, know what a penis is, right?

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:14:47

        Yeah.

    18. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:47

        And, and, and, uh, they know how to sniff one out.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:14:49

        [laughing]

    20. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:49

        Now, I, and I think this idea, this idea-

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:14:53

        Yeah

    22. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:53

        ... that, that they're attracted to the way that you perceive yourself-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:14:55

        Nonsense

    24. ADAndrew Doyle1:14:56

        ... and not only that, then you get, you know, like in Australia at the moment, lesbians are not allowed to gather legally if there's a man who says he's a lesbian and wants to join them. That is against the law in Australia now, so you, you can't do that.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:15:08

        Wait, wait a minute. What do you mean?

    26. ADAndrew Doyle1:15:09

        So, uh, the Australian Human Rights Commission ruled that if you are, if you have an all-female event, right, so like a lesbian gathering maybe-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:15:15

        Mm

    28. ADAndrew Doyle1:15:15

        ... something like that, um, you have to include men who identify as women.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:15:19

        Oh, God!

    30. ADAndrew Doyle1:15:20

        Because otherwise you are discriminating.
12. 1:46:32 – 1:48:18

    Berkeley event ‘war zone’: two realities, protest theater, and the collapse of campus dialogue

    1. ADAndrew Doyle1:46:32

       It was a natural segue, um, because I, because I think this encapsulates all of the stuff you were talking about, which is that I was going to this, basically, Charlie Kirk's tour.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:46:41

       Yes.

    3. ADAndrew Doyle1:46:41

       He was meant to go on. Berkeley was the last date, and, um, Rob Schneider had agreed to do it, and, um, apparently, he'd said to Charlie, "You know, what's the wor- what's the craziest place you could take me to?" And he said, "Berkeley. Berkeley's gonna be the craziest. Let's do that." So he was already booked to do it.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:46:55

       Oh, wow.

    5. ADAndrew Doyle1:46:55

       After what happened with Charlie, uh, Rob asked me if I'd come along as well, and we were... So we'd be on a panel, and I had no idea of the extent of the problem, right? So, uh, and I'm sure you know a lot more than I do. Uh, you know, but I turned up. We were there. We, we turned up, and there were men with guns. We were in, you know, in an SUV under the ground. We got into this venue, and suddenly the security start showing me footage from outside, and people are... It's like a war zone. People are s- throwing smoke bombs. They've- they're, they're trying to crash through the railings. Some guy gets beaten up. He's covered in blood 'cause he was wearing a T-shirt with Turning Point written on it. And I'm suddenly realizing, "You know what? Th- this is a fantasy world that we're now occupying." We're now occupying a world where the people outside think the world is this, and what's going on inside is completely disconnected from it.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:47:41

       Yeah.

    7. ADAndrew Doyle1:47:41

       And I actually found it quite depressing. 'Cause when I was sitting on stage talking to Rob and Peter Boghossian and Frank Turek, these people of completely different viewpoints, we're just having a chat. Outside, they're smashing things, they're screaming, they're saying that fascists have overrun the university.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:47:55

       Yeah.

    9. ADAndrew Doyle1:47:56

       And I'm thinking, just to come back to that point you made about, you know, that need to discuss- for discussion. That experience made me think, actually, now, what's happening is we're like- we're living in two separate worlds at the same time, and we can't see what- we can't see what the other side is, what the, what the intentions of the other side are, and I don't know how you resolve that. I think that's... That, to me, sort of encapsulated the entire problem.

13. 1:48:18 – 2:07:35

    Ideological subversion debate: Bezmenov, institutional capture, and incentives to outsource thinking

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:48:18

       Well, at this point, it's gonna be very difficult to resolve, and I, I honestly think it's gonna take a generation to work through it.

    2. ADAndrew Doyle1:48:25

       But isn't it as simple as l- people learning what the word fascist means, for instance? Like-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:48:29

       It's not just that. It's like they, they firmly believe that they are trying to fight against something that is going to destroy democracy in this country, which is conservative values.

    4. ADAndrew Doyle1:48:40

       But we had that with the No Kings r- there, so there's a No Kings-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:48:42

       Mm-hmm

    6. ADAndrew Doyle1:48:43

       ... March, and I couldn't figure that out. I was trying to figure out, what, what are they... This is an elected leader.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:48:47

       Well, you know it's all organized, right? You know this is all funded and organized.

    8. ADAndrew Doyle1:48:50

       I don't know.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:48:50

       Okay, it is. So, um, this was Mike Benz's point when he was-

    10. ADAndrew Doyle1:48:56

        Yeah

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:48:56

        ... talking about the defunding of USAID and what they use that money for. NGOs, uh, get a bunch of money, and they, uh, fund a bunch of things, uh, particularly in other countries, where they're essentially making it look like there's these on-the-ground street protests that are very organic.

    12. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:14

        Right.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:49:14

        But it's not. It's very organized, and it's very funded, and the idea is to start chaos.

    14. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:19

        So I've seen people get caught out, people who are clearly being paid, who appear at various different things.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:49:23

        It's not just that, it's-

    16. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:25

        But-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:49:25

        ... it's also email campaigns, it's, um, indoctrinating people into this particular ideology by supporting universities, so you fund it in advance.

    18. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:34

        Yeah, yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:49:34

        So it's like decades of... And this is, uh, uh, y- I'm sure you've seen, um, the Russian guy from 1984 or 1985, Yuri Bezmenov, talking about the-

    20. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:48

        Remind me.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:49:48

        You've never seen it?

    22. ADAndrew Doyle1:49:49

        I don't think I've seen it.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:49:49

        It's a wonderful video because it shows you exactly what happened, how they're gonna introduce Marxism and Leninism into universities, and then it'll indoctrinate children, and then those children will be poisoned, and within one generation, it'll ruin the United States' entire-

    24. ADAndrew Doyle1:50:05

        Yeah

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:50:05

        ... educational system.

    26. ADAndrew Doyle1:50:06

        So that's the Long March idea.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:50:07

        And therefore... Yeah, that's the Long-

    28. ADAndrew Doyle1:50:09

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:50:09

        But l- you should watch a little bit of this-

    30. ADAndrew Doyle1:50:10

        Okay, okay, yeah
14. 2:07:35 – 2:25:23

    Europe’s ‘prebunking’ and UK institutional lockstep: Online Safety Bill, juries, and Reform’s rise

    1. ADAndrew Doyle2:07:35

       The, so the EU, the head of the EU Commission is Ursula von der Leyen. Did you hear her s-

    2. JRJoe Rogan2:07:39

       Great name, by the way.

    3. ADAndrew Doyle2:07:40

       Well, yeah, it's a, it's a sexy name, right?

    4. JRJoe Rogan2:07:41

       Yeah.

    5. ADAndrew Doyle2:07:42

       [laughing] It's-

    6. JRJoe Rogan2:07:44

       It's hot.

    7. ADAndrew Doyle2:07:44

       She's unelected. The, the, the, the European Commission is an unelected body that sets the legislative agenda of all these European countries. Absolutely crazy. You can't vote them out. She did a speech-

    8. JRJoe Rogan2:07:54

       [exhales]

    9. ADAndrew Doyle2:07:54

       ... last May, where she said, and I'm not joking about this, she said that, um, uh, "misinformation was like a virus, and you need to inoculate yourself against the virus." And the phrase she used is, uh, not debunking, prebunking. So prebunking is her idea of what you do with misinformation. What she means is censorship.

    10. JRJoe Rogan2:08:11

        [groans]

    11. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:12

        She... But prebunking is the most sinister-

    12. JRJoe Rogan2:08:14

        That's crazy

    13. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:15

        ... chilly, like, if you were to say, "I'm gonna come up with the most Orwellian, sort of dark lord, [chuckles] kind of Sith-"

    14. JRJoe Rogan2:08:21

        Prebunking.

    15. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:22

        Prebunking.

    16. JRJoe Rogan2:08:23

        Yeah, that's like fucking Minority Report, right?

    17. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:25

        Like, I don't know what-

    18. JRJoe Rogan2:08:26

        Pre-crime.

    19. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:26

        I don't know what the... 'Cause I, I know that there's, there's this, uh, free speech debate opening up between the US and the, and the, and Europe generally. Like, you know, when JD Vance came over to Munich and gave that talk to all the European leaders and said, "You've got to stop censoring your people. You've got to stop running away from voters," and they were shocked.

    20. JRJoe Rogan2:08:42

        Yeah.

    21. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:42

        And they were horrified, but he was dead right.

    22. JRJoe Rogan2:08:43

        He's dead right.

    23. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:44

        And he should- And you know what? People on the left should a- admit that he's dead right as well.

    24. JRJoe Rogan2:08:48

        Yeah.

    25. ADAndrew Doyle2:08:48

        But there's something about Europe, right? There's something about... Like, I think over here, coming over here, I, I get the sense that even if most left-leaning people, as well as right-leaning people, do value free speech as a kind of shared value, and in Europe, it's not that. There, there's a real sense of, "We can't trust the masses."... 'cause I know that the EU is, is seen as this big lefty thing, which it absolutely is not. The EU is a body that wants to censor its citizens. It's a body that tells people: "You can have a referendum, but if you get it wrong, we're gonna make you vote again." It's not a democratic organization. So no wonder Vance is sort of, and Trump, is at, at loggerheads with this body, 'cause you've got these- We, in the UK, have a authoritarian leader, Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister.

    26. JRJoe Rogan2:09:30

        Yeah.

    27. ADAndrew Doyle2:09:31

        He couldn't be further away from the American ideal of free speech. He introduced this Online Safety Bill, which is basically to- This is why a lot of tweets in the UK, if you go over to the UK now, a lot of the tweets will come up and say, "This is potentially harmful content, so we're screening it out." Uh, he... You know, they're trying to get rid of juries-

    28. JRJoe Rogan2:09:48

        Yeah

    29. ADAndrew Doyle2:09:48

        ... for certain trials.

    30. JRJoe Rogan2:09:49

        They did get rid of juries.

Episode duration: 2:39:41