Joe Rogan Experience #2448 - Andrew Doyle

Joe Rogan 0:00 [upbeat music]

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0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music] Yes, Andrew.

Andrew Doyle 0:13 Hello.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Good to see you, brother.

Andrew Doyle 0:15 Good to see you, too.

Joe Rogan 0:15 Um, it has been, you said, six years almost to the day-

Andrew Doyle 0:19 Almost to the day

Joe Rogan 0:19 ... last time. So-

Andrew Doyle 0:20 Lots changed. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 0:21 Right before everything went crazy.

Andrew Doyle 0:23 That's it.

Joe Rogan 0:24 Right before.

Andrew Doyle 0:25 Yeah, the whole world sort of shifted after that.

Joe Rogan 0:26 'Cause everything went kooky around March, right?

Andrew Doyle 0:28 Yeah, so it was February 2020, and then, then we have COVID, and then we have... You know, we've had Trump in between of that. We had BLM. That summer of 2020, everything just exploded and went a bit mad.

Joe Rogan 0:37 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 0:37 And, um, yeah, and then everything shifted, so-

Joe Rogan 0:40 And then you wrote a book.

Andrew Doyle 0:41 I wrote a book.

Joe Rogan 0:42 It's called The End of Woke: How the Culture War Went Too Far and What to Expect from the Counter-Revolution. Isn't that how it always goes, though? It goes like, we go too far-

Andrew Doyle 0:52 Yeah

Joe Rogan 0:52 ... and then we overcorrect, and we become Nazis.

Andrew Doyle 0:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:55 Or [laughing] --

Andrew Doyle 0:56 That's it, exactly. [laughing] Well, you know-

Joe Rogan 0:58 Or it's, or it's the opposite: we go socialist.

Andrew Doyle 1:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01 You know, it's-

Andrew Doyle 1:01 It's a big pendulum. I get that. It sort of goes back and forth. I mean, I was trying to s- in that book, I was-- I'm trying to make the point that what woke was, was like a kind of the latest manifestation of an, a kind of innate authoritarian impulse. I think human beings are, by default, quite, uh, inclined towards just shutting people up if they don't like them.

Joe Rogan 1:19 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:19 Just imposing their authority. And so woke wa- I mean, a lot of people are annoyed that I've called it the end of woke. I'm not saying it's all over, let's just go home, forget about it. It's still going on. But the point about it is, is that in its current manifestation, things are changing now so rapidly. We are moving into some sort of new phase, and that authoritarianism, which we've associated with the left, might come up from the right. It could come up from anywhere. It's what you say about the pendulum.

Joe Rogan 1:42 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:42 So you just have to be kind of vigilant about it. I don't think we were vigilant. I think that's why woke happened. We weren't vigilant against this prospect that, you know, pe- authoritarianism could emerge in what we thought was a free society.

Joe Rogan 1:54 Well, authoritarianism, authoritarianism, it snuck in through, uh, a sheep costume.

Andrew Doyle 2:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:01 You know, it was-

Andrew Doyle 2:01 A wolf in a sheep's costume.

Joe Rogan 2:02 Yeah, it was a, it was a costume of being more inclusive, being more open-minded-

Andrew Doyle 2:08 Right

Joe Rogan 2:08 ... being a better society, being kinder, you know?

Andrew Doyle 2:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:12 It, it, it led to, you know, child trans surgeries. It led to chaos. It led to, like, a lot of, like, really fucking freaky things that you'd have never expected. People, people saying that the First Amendment's not important.

Andrew Doyle 2:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 2:25 What's more important is protecting people, like-

Andrew Doyle 2:27 Well, that was the key, wasn't it? The point was that, [clears throat] the way it worked was that it was gulling people through language that sounded-

Joe Rogan 2:32 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 2:33 ... pretty sweet and kittenish-

Joe Rogan 2:34 Yes

Andrew Doyle 2:35 ... and fluffy. You know, things like equity. Well, that sounds a lot like equality, doesn't it?

Joe Rogan 2:39 Right.

Andrew Doyle 2:39 But it, it doesn't mean equality. It means treating people unequally to ensure, uh, equal outcomes according to group identity. That's a very different thing. You say you're talking about, "Let's make everything inclusive," but what you really mean is, "Let's exclude anyone who disagrees with what we've got to say."

Joe Rogan 2:54 Right.

Andrew Doyle 2:54 So you're using language to mean the exact opposite. They say gender-affirming care, but do they mean that? Or do they mean affirming what is effectively a pseudoscientific belief among vulnerable people? So it's, it's all about misusing language because most people, I think, or I like to think, are pretty decent.

Joe Rogan 3:10 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 3:11 Like, most people want to be kind and want to be fair, and when you hear these activists saying, "Be kind, be compassionate, or else," right? [laughing]

Joe Rogan 3:18 [chuckles] Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 3:19 You know, they- you kind of think, "Okay, well, maybe their intentions are good, but also, they're pretty scary." I mean, there's, there's a, there's a weird... There was a weird thing with the woke thing, which was that, on the one hand, it proclaimed to be this sort of great, virtuous, kind, uh, progressive, right side of history. How often did you hear that phrase?

Joe Rogan 3:36 Right.

Andrew Doyle 3:37 And at the same time, they're like dangerous dogs. Like, you're, you're, you're like, "I better not piss them off. I better not say the wrong thing in the workplace, 'cause they'll des- [chuckles] they'll destroy you."

Joe Rogan 3:46 Well, I always find that the most preposterous the idea is and the, the least capable it is to stand up to scrutiny, the more violent the enforcement of that idea will be.

Andrew Doyle 3:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:59 Because you cannot combat that. You, you can't defend that idea with logic, so you have to defend it with fear and force-

Andrew Doyle 4:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 4:05 ... and just, just shouting people down, and that's what we saw. And that's-

Andrew Doyle 4:10 But-

Joe Rogan 4:10 It's a natural impulse of human beings.

Andrew Doyle 4:12 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 4:12 Like, like when you're arguing with a kid, you know? When you're a kid, and you're arguing with a kid, and you say something, you don't even know, "You shut the fuck up!"

Andrew Doyle 4:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:18 Like, they just start scaring you.

Andrew Doyle 4:20 So why is it, though, that some countries and some societies seem to protect themselves better than others-

Joe Rogan 4:25 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 4:25 ... against that, against that impulse? And I feel at the moment that the UK is kind of failing, where America is, to a degree, succeeding, not in, obviously, in all ways. But when it comes to the idea of freedom and free speech, like, I think UK is pretty far- has pretty fallen to the kind of the, the, the woke insistence that you need to control people's language be- so that you can create this perfect society, which can never come anyway. It's just utopian.

Joe Rogan 4:48 Well, I think it's been co-opted. I think whatever organic version of that emerges naturally from society-

Andrew Doyle 4:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 4:56 ... where people want- where there's an overcorrection, I think in the U- UK, because you guys don't have free speech laws, 'cause it's just different over there-

Andrew Doyle 5:04 Yeah

Joe Rogan 5:04 ... you can get away with a lot of crazy shit. Like, the, first of all, like, we should explain what we're talking about.

Andrew Doyle 5:10 Mm.

Joe Rogan 5:10 There's more than 12,000 people have been arrested in the UK in the past year for social media posts, and if you read some of those social media posts, they're not even remotely terrifying. It's not like, "I'm going to grab a knife and go cut the head off of every immigrant I see."

Andrew Doyle 5:28 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:28 Like, "Hey, buddy, maybe we should lock this guy up and evaluate him. He sounds like a crazy person." Like, "No, the immigrants are coming into this fucking country and creating all this crime." Knock on the door-

Andrew Doyle 5:37 Yeah

Joe Rogan 5:37 ... you're going to jail.

Andrew Doyle 5:38 I worry that Americans think we're mad [chuckles] sometimes. I think-

Joe Rogan 5:42 We do.

Andrew Doyle 5:42 Yeah. Do you? We do.

Joe Rogan 5:43 We do now, yeah. We think you've lost it.

Andrew Doyle 5:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:45 We th- well, we also think something happened where your leaders are intentionally trying to tank your country. It seems like they're trying to bring in as many migrants as possible, um, cater to them, not to the British people, and do it openly-

Andrew Doyle 6:02 Yeah

Joe Rogan 6:02 ... so that everyone knows what they're doing and then create chaos on the streets because of it.

Andrew Doyle 6:06 Yeah, I mean, people have a phrase for that, anarcho-tyranny, you know, where you, where you punish people who aren't breaking the law-

Joe Rogan 6:11 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 6:11 ... but you, but you protect those who are. And-

Joe Rogan 6:13 Right

Andrew Doyle 6:13 ... I, I think with the... I mean-... I don't know the extent that Americans know the- I mean, the stat you quoted, that came from the Times newspaper in London, which did a Freedom Infor- Information request to the police. Found out that it's 12,000 a year on average, so that's, like, 30 a day, not just being investigated or looked into, but being arrested.

Joe Rogan 6:31 But over the last few years only. If you go back-

Andrew Doyle 6:33 Yeah

Joe Rogan 6:33 ... it's only, like, 1,000 or 500.

Andrew Doyle 6:37 It was-

Joe Rogan 6:37 It's-

Andrew Doyle 6:37 It was 3,000, uh, back, last time we spoke, back in 2020. 3,000-

Joe Rogan 6:40 Was it really a year?

Andrew Doyle 6:41 Yeah, it was. It was.

Joe Rogan 6:41 Back then?

Andrew Doyle 6:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:42 Oh, my God!

Andrew Doyle 6:43 So, so we already had that problem. I mean, we already-

Joe Rogan 6:46 I didn't know it was that many. That's crazy!

Andrew Doyle 6:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:47 Even back then?

Andrew Doyle 6:48 It was already really high. I mean, we had stuff like the old stories of, like, um... There was that guy in 2010 who made a joke online about, he was at Doncaster Airport in the UK. He said, "Oh, if this queue doesn't hurry up, I'm going to blow up the airport." Just a stupid, funny tweet.

Joe Rogan 7:01 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Doyle 7:02 He went all the way to court. That was a full trial. Well, so these, these laws, and I think, I, I think what happens with this stuff is people don't realise how long this has been embedded in the UK. We have hate speech laws that are encoded in a number of different legislations. We have a thing called the Public Order Act. We have a thing called Malicious Communications Act; that's from 1988. We have, uh, Communications Act from 2003. And all of these things criminalise... I tell you, I, I kid you not, the language in the statute books is, "if it's grossly offensive," that's the phrase. If you post something that is grossly offensive, you can go to court, you can be prosecuted.

Joe Rogan 7:36 [exhales]

Andrew Doyle 7:36 But, you know, I find-

Joe Rogan 7:37 So subjective.

Andrew Doyle 7:38 Well, that's it. What does that even mean? I find laws against free speech to be grossly offensive.

Joe Rogan 7:44 Right.

Andrew Doyle 7:44 So should the, the British state be arrested? I don't know. And there's one, I think it's in the, um, Malicious Communications, Communications Act, where it talks about needless anxiety. Causing needless anxiety-

Joe Rogan 7:55 [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 7:55 ... can get you arrested.

Joe Rogan 7:56 Uh.

Andrew Doyle 7:56 And you think, you think that's not a thing. I can give you a specific example of that.

Joe Rogan 8:00 Do you smoke cigars?

Andrew Doyle 8:01 Uh, I have once. My friend, Winston Marshall, who I think-

Joe Rogan 8:04 You want one?

Andrew Doyle 8:05 J- I, I worry that if I try it-

Joe Rogan 8:06 [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 8:07 ... I'll cough, and I'll look really wimpish and, and pathetic.

Joe Rogan 8:10 [laughs] And it'll-

Andrew Doyle 8:11 And-

Joe Rogan 8:11 ... won't be good for your arguments. [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 8:12 It will, it will backfire. It will... I tell you, it'll undermine everything.

Joe Rogan 8:14 [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 8:14 It'll be like I'm sitting here with a paper hat on at Christmas, undermining all of my key points.

Joe Rogan 8:19 Right.

Andrew Doyle 8:19 Um, I d- I d-

Joe Rogan 8:20 Okay

Andrew Doyle 8:21 ... see, I like, I like the flavour, and I like being around smokers, 'cause my grandmother used to chain smoke around me. So it's kind of-

Joe Rogan 8:26 Oh, boy. [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 8:27 Well, she's Northern Irish, you know.

Joe Rogan 8:28 [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 8:28 That's, it's the way they do. She used to give me whiskey when I was three to calm me down, you know, so-

Joe Rogan 8:31 Oh, wow!

Andrew Doyle 8:32 ... it's that sort of family. Um-

Joe Rogan 8:33 That's an old thing they used to do with kids. They used-

Andrew Doyle 8:35 They did!

Joe Rogan 8:35 ... put it in their, babies, they'd put it in their mouth.

Andrew Doyle 8:37 It worked.

Joe Rogan 8:38 Like, a, a, like, they would dip their finger in whiskey and rub it on the inside of a kid's mouth.

Andrew Doyle 8:42 If you're struggling with a child, get it drunk. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 8:44 [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 8:44 That's how you... And it's, it's old Northern Irish wisdom.

Joe Rogan 8:47 [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 8:48 I don't think you should scoff at it. It's a good, it's a good thing. But I'll be more than happy to-

Joe Rogan 8:51 I think it's grossly offensive.

Andrew Doyle 8:52 [laughs] It's grossly offensive.

Joe Rogan 8:54 [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 8:56 The example I was going to give, uh, was this, um, guy called Darren Brady, and this sounds made up, and whenever I tell people this, it sounds made up. He, um, posted a meme. I don't know if you saw this meme, where it was the four progress pride flags. You know, that's got the crazy triangles and stuff in it?

Joe Rogan 9:11 Uh-huh. And you put them all together, and they become a swastika.

Andrew Doyle 9:13 Exactly that, right?

Joe Rogan 9:14 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 9:14 And that was going everywhere.

Joe Rogan 9:15 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 9:15 And he posted it, and there's a video of him being arrested, put in handcuffs. He's an Army veteran, by the way, right? Put in handcuffs-

Joe Rogan 9:20 [exhales]

Andrew Doyle 9:21 ... by the police, and the policeman says in the video, "You caused someone anxiety." So the, the actual language from the law [laughs] is being used for this rearrangement of the... And you know what? That's quite a good satirical point-

Joe Rogan 9:33 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 9:33 ... that he was making. It wasn't even his meme. He was just retweeting a meme. But even if it was some horrible, offensive thing, who cares?

Joe Rogan 9:40 How is-

Andrew Doyle 9:41 And-

Joe Rogan 9:41 ... that offensive?

Andrew Doyle 9:42 [clears throat]

Joe Rogan 9:42 But I guess, I mean, well, you could find... That's the problem. You could find anything offensive.

Andrew Doyle 9:46 Mm.

Joe Rogan 9:47 You could find anything grossly offensive if you're extremely sensitive.

Andrew Doyle 9:52 You could. And, but wasn't there a point to that? I mean, he was kind of saying that the LGBTQIA+ -

Joe Rogan 9:58 [clears throat]

Andrew Doyle 9:58 ... movement has become quite authoritarian.

Joe Rogan 10:00 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 10:01 He's not saying they're actual Nazis, and he's saying, "Oh, isn't it quite funny that when you put them together, it looks like a, it looks like a swastika?" The idea that you get handcuffed for that-

Joe Rogan 10:08 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 10:08 ... to me, is crazy.

Joe Rogan 10:08 Especially for a retweet. That's crazy.

Andrew Doyle 10:10 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:11 That's crazy.

Andrew Doyle 10:12 It's retweets, it's tweets, it's posts. Uh, we've had... Memes are the big one. So there was a guy called Lee Joseph Dunn, who went to prison for eight weeks, that was last year, I think, for three memes that he posted.

Joe Rogan 10:23 Eight weeks?

Andrew Doyle 10:24 Eight weeks in prison. One, the right... So, again, the [laughs] I'll tell you what the most offensive of the three memes was, and you can tell me whether you think it was worth prison time.

Joe Rogan 10:33 Okay.

Andrew Doyle 10:34 He put a picture of some immigrants, uh, with knives, and underneath it said, "Coming to a town near you," and that was it. So I don't know if you think that's worth prison time.

Joe Rogan 10:44 That's the most offensive one?

Andrew Doyle 10:45 Of the three, that's the most.

Joe Rogan 10:46 What's the least offensive one?

Andrew Doyle 10:47 I can't remember what the other two were.

Joe Rogan 10:49 [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 10:49 'Cause I remember I looked at them, I thought, "Well, that's not even worth-

Joe Rogan 10:52 Right

Andrew Doyle 10:52 ... that's not even worth thinking about." But this one was the one that really... 'Cause, 'cause they say in England, "You're stirring up hatred against minorities through the, the, the spreading of the meme."

Joe Rogan 11:02 Right.

Andrew Doyle 11:02 You know? But that's clearly not sufficient, you know. I, I, and I think in the US, you have, you have far more protections. I, I wonder whether it's to do with the fact that in the US, you have the First Amendment. Like, so you have something codified-

Joe Rogan 11:14 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 11:14 ... that says, you can say what you want.

Joe Rogan 11:17 Mm.

Andrew Doyle 11:17 We've never had that.

Joe Rogan 11:18 It's very important, and it didn't seem important 20 years ago-

Andrew Doyle 11:22 Yeah

Joe Rogan 11:22 ... or 30 years ago, because no one ever looked at England as being that kind of a country that would just put people... Well, obviously, this was all pre-social media.

Andrew Doyle 11:31 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:31 And England has always been a, a fairly polite society.

Andrew Doyle 11:34 Yes.

Joe Rogan 11:35 And, and, but the thing is, like, now pub talk has become illegal, right?

Andrew Doyle 11:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:40 Like, if you say something offensive in a pub, you're subject to be arrested, and they're asking people to turn people in.

Andrew Doyle 11:46 There's a thing called the banter ban, which the Labour government [laughs] -

Joe Rogan 11:49 [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 11:49 ... the Labour government was trying to put in. Here's the logic of the banter ban.

Joe Rogan 11:53 Ah.

Andrew Doyle 11:53 Um, I, I, I-

Joe Rogan 11:54 Mm

Andrew Doyle 11:54 ... I'd forgotten about this, but now you've mentioned it. They wanted to introduce this law so that, for instance, if you're working in a bar or a pub, and you overhear someone who says something against your protected characteristic... Say, you're a gay barman, and someone says, "Oh, I don't like the gays," or something, and you overhear it, your employer has a, a, a duty to protect you from that kind of hate speech, that kind of harm. So therefore, there's going to be a blanket ban on speech in, on certain kinds of speech within the, the, the pub.... right? I would say the guy who's eavesdropping, he's the problem, right? You shouldn't be listening in on other people's conversations. That- so that's an, that's a real thing.

Joe Rogan 12:27 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 12:27 And I guess it all comes down to this view, which I think is completely wrong, that words and violence are the same thing, uh, that words can create a more violent society, that there's a direct causal link between the stuff that people say and the stuff that people say online to how people behave in the real world. And I think you guys have got it right, 'cause you've got the Brandenburg test. Do you know about the, the, the, the test for incitement to violence in the US?

Joe Rogan 12:50 No, what is that?

Andrew Doyle 12:51 It's, it's basically a test that was established, I think, back in the '60s. Uh, it was a KKK leader called Clarence Brandenburg, who was prosecuted for incitement to violence. And the test was, that was established since that precedent, was that any words, uh, that can be convicted for incitement to violence, they have to be intended to cause violence, likely to cause violence, and the violence must be imminent. And if you satisfy those, that, that threshold, you can be prosecuted in the US for incitement to violence. So it'd be like, kind of, imagine a demagogue surrounded by all his fans, whipping up a frenzy-

Joe Rogan 13:22 Right

Andrew Doyle 13:22 ... and then pointing to a guy on the front row and saying, "Kill him now." That would qualify for the Brandenburg test.

Joe Rogan 13:28 Right.

Andrew Doyle 13:28 But in the UK, because we don't have that test, all we've got is whether people found it offensive. That's the, that's the difference of the threshold. So it's a, it's a massive difference between what the US has and what the UK has.

Joe Rogan 13:40 Massive.

Andrew Doyle 13:41 It's insane. I mean, to give the most r- obvious recent example, 'cause I don't know if people know about this, there's a woman called Lucy Connolly in the UK. Uh, I don't know if this was reported over here at all. Do you remember we had all these riots last year during the summer when, uh, against hotels which were housing asylum seekers, and people were setting fire to them? There were genuinely racist stuff going on, right, during those riots, and this was off the back of a guy who'd murdered a bunch of little girls in a dance class. And there were rumors going around that this was an asylum seeker, right? And this one woman, a mother, who'd lost her daughter, very sensitive about the idea of, um... Lucy Connolly, she's very sensitive about the idea of loss of kids. She tweeted in an ang- in a fit of anger, "Go and burn down all the hotels for all I care. Uh, if that makes me racist, so be it. And take the government with you." Something like that. And she deleted it within a couple of hours. She went out, walked her dog, she deleted it, and she thought, "I really w- that's not me. That's not who I am." Deleted it. [sniffs] Police came, went to court, sentenced to 31 months in prison for that deleted, swiftly deleted tweet, and she served over a year.

Joe Rogan 14:46 Oh, my God!

Andrew Doyle 14:47 Now, I'm not saying the tweet was nice [chuckles] right? The tweet was a horrible tweet, and she says it was a horrible tweet, that's why she deleted it. But because we don't have that Brandenburg test, we don't have a test for incitement to violence... 'Cause the key is, that tweet, there was no way it could have... She was a nobody. You know, she wasn't someone with influence. She didn't have many followers.

Joe Rogan 15:05 [exhales]

Andrew Doyle 15:05 Um, she- no one was going to read that and go and act upon it. And if they did, that would be on them, right? Because-

Joe Rogan 15:13 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 15:14 ... this is a myth. This myth that people act on cue to what they read online-

Joe Rogan 15:18 Well, it-

Andrew Doyle 15:18 It isn't real

Joe Rogan 15:18 ... it influences people, for sure. But at, at what point are you required to have sovereignty over your own mind and your own actions?

Andrew Doyle 15:29 Yeah. Well, I think what it does is it raises the temperature, particularly when political leaders do it.

Joe Rogan 15:34 Right, but w- when political... But my point is, like, it's not gonna incite you to violence. It's not going to incite me to violence. So who are we talking about?

Andrew Doyle 15:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:43 This is part of the thing, is, like, they're protecting the dumbest members of society. This is like the thing about banning, you know, crazy talk online. If you're talking about witches or, you know, whatever it is-

Andrew Doyle 15:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 15:55 ... flat Earth. Like, y- we have to stop misinformation. But from, from who? It's not working on you, right?

Andrew Doyle 16:01 Yes, um-

Joe Rogan 16:02 You don't believe it, so who are we protecting? We're protecting the dumbest people?

Andrew Doyle 16:06 Also, aren't you kind of letting them off?

Joe Rogan 16:07 Mm.

Andrew Doyle 16:07 Like, if, if someone goes and commits an act of violence and said, "Oh, I did it because someone told me to do it," aren't you kind of letting them off the hook?

Joe Rogan 16:13 Right. Exactly.

Andrew Doyle 16:15 A- a- and sort of displacing the blame.

Joe Rogan 16:17 [clears throat]

Andrew Doyle 16:17 You know, it's like that guy who shot, uh, John Lennon, who said Catcher in the Rye made him do it. Reading the book Catcher- are we now blaming J.D. Salinger-

Joe Rogan 16:24 Right

Andrew Doyle 16:24 ... for the murder of John Lennon? It was John Lennon, wasn't it? I think it was.

Joe Rogan 16:27 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 16:27 Yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 16:27 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 16:28 ... do, do you-- I think the safest approach is to say people are responsible for their own actions. I think the best that you could say is, when political leaders and people with clout s- say things like that, they sort of, they say, "You know, it's fine to go out and commit violence," I think what they do is they create a kind of imprimatur of approval. They create this kind of sense that if you do it, the people in charge will have your back. If you do it, it's okay.

Joe Rogan 16:51 Well, this was the argument with Trump for January 6th.

Andrew Doyle 16:55 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 16:55 And that's why the BBC edited his speech to make it look as if that's what he was saying.

Andrew Doyle 17:00 Do you s- you saw that clip, right?

Joe Rogan 17:01 Oh, my God, it's fucking crazy.

Andrew Doyle 17:03 I, I mean, I've been saying for a long time, the BBC has a real... Like, what I will say in the BBC's defense, is they've always been pretty good at being party politically neutral. Like, they will, uh, interrogate someone on the, the right and someone on the left in a pretty neutral way. They don't... They, I think they do pretty good. I know people will be annoyed at me for saying that, but I think they do.

Joe Rogan 17:22 Mm.

Andrew Doyle 17:22 But I think in terms of the ideology, the woke ideology, they got captured. They have a thing at the BBC called the LGBT desk, or they had it up until recently, which could veto any news story, which meant that any story that was slightly critical of transactivism or, or anything like that, just didn't get reported. So I'm not surprised that the BBC have a-

Joe Rogan 17:40 They gave them veto power?

Andrew Doyle 17:42 They gave them veto power, yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:43 That's crazy.

Andrew Doyle 17:44 This all came out in a report, quite a recent report, just a few months ago, which led to the resignation of Tim Davie, the director general, and he resigned ostensibly because of that Trump clip, which by the way, that wasn't the first time they did it. There, there was another clip about a year or a year before, in a different program, that did the same thing. Took the clip, re-edited it, and made it look like he had said something he absolutely had not said. So I think the, uh, the, the BBC quite obviously has a, an ideological bias, if not a party political bias.

Joe Rogan 18:12 But that's more than a bias.

Andrew Doyle 18:14 Well, it's misleading, right?

Joe Rogan 18:15 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 18:15 It's, it's-

Joe Rogan 18:16 It's completely deceptive. You're, you're editing something and cha- I mean, you... They took out a giant chunk of his speech.

Andrew Doyle 18:23 Yeah. Yeah.

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Andrew Doyle 19:28 They leapt, like, 45 minutes or something.

Joe Rogan 19:30 Right.

Andrew Doyle 19:30 Like, so he said-

Joe Rogan 19:31 Something crazy like that.

Andrew Doyle 19:32 Yeah, he said s- it made him look like he was saying, "Go and-

Joe Rogan 19:34 Exactly

Andrew Doyle 19:34 ... commit the, the crime."

Joe Rogan 19:36 Exactly.

Andrew Doyle 19:36 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 19:36 And instead, he, he was i- in tongue-in-cheek, talking about the very fine senator, that they're doing a great job, the f- senators and congresspeople-

Andrew Doyle 19:46 Yeah

Joe Rogan 19:46 ... and said all this other stuff.

Andrew Doyle 19:48 It's so weird that-

Joe Rogan 19:49 And then said, "You have to fight like hell to keep your country."

Andrew Doyle 19:51 I mean, no offense, but you can find daft stuff that Trump says pretty easily, right? You don't, [laughs] you don't, you don't need to edit that stuff down.

Joe Rogan 19:58 Well, it's 'cause they had an opportunity to, what, like what we were saying before, earlier, we were talking before the show, you can put out a narrative-

Andrew Doyle 20:06 Yeah

Joe Rogan 20:06 ... and it doesn't have to be true, and then that's the one that sticks.

Andrew Doyle 20:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:10 So that's the one that spreads wide, and then when, all these years later, they have to have this, you know, trial, and everybody finds out it's not true, but the damage is done. I mean, that's what they did with Trump during the whole, uh, Steele dossier.

Andrew Doyle 20:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:24 You know, the p- the hookers, and peeing on people, and, you know-

Andrew Doyle 20:28 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 20:28 ... all that crazy shit. Remember that?

Andrew Doyle 20:29 I remember the idea that he'd hired hookers to urinate on the bed that was once occupied by the Obamas.

Joe Rogan 20:34 Something along those lines.

Andrew Doyle 20:35 Right. Now, the reason I didn't believe that is I don't think Trump is that avant-garde. I don't think he's that creative. Like, that, uh, like, if he'd have come up with that, I would've been a- actually applauding that. That's kind of amazing. But obviously, he didn't do that.

Joe Rogan 20:45 But that's not even so the plot... That just sounds-

Andrew Doyle 20:47 It's like a work of art

Joe Rogan 20:47 ... completely ridiculous.

Andrew Doyle 20:48 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 20:48 Right.

Andrew Doyle 20:49 Getting urination on the bed of your enemy through the medium of prostitution, I think that's kind of an artistic thing to do, but I don't think he did it, and he obviously didn't do it. None of it's true.

Joe Rogan 20:57 Right.

Andrew Doyle 20:57 But you put that... But isn't that weird that that, in partic- that's, like, something I don't think anyone seriously could believe?

Joe Rogan 21:02 Well-

Andrew Doyle 21:02 I, I-

Joe Rogan 21:02 ... there was plenty of people that believed it.

Andrew Doyle 21:04 Really?

Joe Rogan 21:04 And they don't... Yeah, they don't have to believe it, they just say it. Like, that was the whole point about, you know, b- the trial-

Andrew Doyle 21:12 Mm

Joe Rogan 21:12 ... where he got arrested and conv- or and convicted of 34 counts that are a felony, none of which are actually a felony. That's all bookkeeping-

Andrew Doyle 21:21 Yeah

Joe Rogan 21:22 ... deception. It's, that was the paying off of the girl.

Andrew Doyle 21:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:25 So now you can say he's a convicted felon.

Andrew Doyle 21:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:28 You can just say that, and even though all those counts were misdemeanors, all of them had passed the statute of limitations.

Andrew Doyle 21:35 Exactly, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:36 But for some reason, through no l- legal way that anybody could ever really honestly explain, they decided to label it a felony.

Andrew Doyle 21:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:45 And it was just to turn him into a felon.

Andrew Doyle 21:47 I saw the... I saw even left-leaning, um, anti-Trump lawyers saying, "This is not how the law should work."

Joe Rogan 21:51 No!

Andrew Doyle 21:52 You can't artificially elevate a misdemeanor to a felony outside the statute of limitations. It's crazy.

Joe Rogan 21:56 But the thing is, w- if you do that, they're gonna do that to you.

Andrew Doyle 21:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:59 It's like, we're gonna give that kind of power to the Republicans? And now when they're in office, they're gonna start doing things like that?

Andrew Doyle 22:05 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 22:05 Are we crazy?

Andrew Doyle 22:06 Well, also, th- this really bothers me, like, one of the key things that I think's happened s- over the past few years is this complete lack of fealty to the truth-

Joe Rogan 22:14 Right

Andrew Doyle 22:14 ... from both sides.

Joe Rogan 22:15 Right.

Andrew Doyle 22:15 It's whatever is convenient matters more, a complete lack of intellectual curiosity, a complete lack of, um, of, of, of investigating and looking and, and, and thoroughly checking. And by the way, with the BBC, that really matters, 'cause unlike the, the, the news media here, which can be as partisan as it likes, the BBC's the state broadcaster. It's got a responsibility by charter to not be... to, you know, to be balanced, to be even-handed.

Joe Rogan 22:37 Neutral.

Andrew Doyle 22:37 And it completely failed.

Joe Rogan 22:39 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 22:39 And I saw today, just this morning, some people... You know, we've got all the mania about the Epstein files at the moment. Some activists have now said, "JK Rowling once invited Epstein to the opening of her theater, her play." Uh, never happened, but because there's a furore about Epstein at the moment, they're just saying it happened.

Joe Rogan 22:55 Right.

Andrew Doyle 22:56 It gets spread all over the place.

Joe Rogan 22:57 Right. That's all you have to do.

Andrew Doyle 22:58 And that's all you have to do, and then, then the dam- and then that gets k- repeated. "Oh, didn't this happen?"

Joe Rogan 23:03 I know.

Andrew Doyle 23:04 Like, what you say about Trump is right. I always hear that, "He's a convicted felon. He's a convicted felon." Well, why don't you pause for a minute and j- assess whether or not that conviction is sound, or whether it was politically motivated, or how helpful that is? But like you say-

Joe Rogan 23:16 Also, it's like, it's such a dangerous precedent to set.

Andrew Doyle 23:20 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:20 It's terrible. Like, if you do that, it... Look, right now, in the United States, the, the media predominantly leans left, except for Fox News.

Andrew Doyle 23:29 Mm.

Joe Rogan 23:29 The mainstream, large-scale media. I guess CBS is probably going to lean more right now.

Andrew Doyle 23:34 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:35 It seems like it's in the process of that. But for the most part, when you watch CNN, if you watch MSNBC, if you watch the mainstream news, it's very left-leaning.

Andrew Doyle 23:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:45 But if the fucking... If right-wing people started, if, if it was, like, more common for the news to be right-leaning, and then they started doing the exact same thing about a left-leaning candidate-

Andrew Doyle 23:58 Yeah

Joe Rogan 23:58 ... [exhales] This is so dangerous, and the idea that the left doesn't recognize that, which are the people that have always been in support of free speech. It's never been a right-wing thing to support free speech-

Andrew Doyle 24:10 Right

Joe Rogan 24:10 ... until now.

Andrew Doyle 24:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:11 It's always been a left-wing thing. When I was a kid, it was a- famously the case of the ADL defending Nazis having the right to protest, and saying, "Look, we, we, we think what they're saying is abhorrent, but it's very important that you get the right to say whatever you feel, and then the way to combat that is with much better, more concise speech that's much more logical and makes sense."

Andrew Doyle 24:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:32 "And this is what you do. This is what debate is for. This is, this is... We sh- we've always known this."

Andrew Doyle 24:36 Yeah, but, I mean, I, I agree. I'm so dispirited by that, that very thing that you've identified, that the left used to be about this. The left used to be all about... I mean, that example you mentioned of, of, uh, Skokie, wasn't it, in Chicago, the, the Nazis marching through Skokie, and the ACLU saying-... we're, you know, we're defending this. There was a book by a guy called Ian Neya, who was the head of the ACLU, called Defending My Enemy.

Joe Rogan 24:56 Yeah, it wasn't the ADL, it was the ACLU, right?

Andrew Doyle 24:58 It was the ACLU, and, and, and he was saying, um, you know, he's, he- you know, he's Jewish. He's got, uh, he- family members who died in the Holocaust-

Joe Rogan 25:05 Right

Andrew Doyle 25:05 ... but he's writing a book saying, "I'm defending neo-Nazis' right to free speech, not because I support them, but because I don't. And I want to defend the principle whereby I can tackle them, and that's speech."

Joe Rogan 25:15 Right.

Andrew Doyle 25:15 So the, the, in other words, the, the principle is so much bigger. I mean, the thing that I think has been lost... And now, by the way, the ACLU complete about-turn. I mean, there was a, a lawyer for the ACLU tweeting about how he wanted Abigail Shrier's book banned, and he said, "This is the hill I will die on." [snorts] You know, that's a guy called Chase- or was it a guy? I think it's a trans activist called Chase something, I can't remember. Anyway, but, but the point is, how far have you fallen? When it comes to these free speech issues, left or right, it's nothing to do with it. It's, it, it should be about this principle of- d- it's not whether you agree with what they're saying and the substance of what they're saying, it's whether you want the principle intact, and that principle applies to us all. The very same principle that allows the Nazis to say all their crazy stuff is the principle that allows us to ch- to challenge it, to, to, to tackle it.

Joe Rogan 25:58 Well, it's, it's a very short-term win.

Andrew Doyle 26:01 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 26:01 And it's basically they're playing chess, and they decided, "I want that rook no matter what."

Andrew Doyle 26:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:05 And then they just sacrificed their queen. Like, look what you've done. Look what you've done for this short-term victory. You're essentially tanking civilization for a decade-

Andrew Doyle 26:14 Yeah

Joe Rogan 26:14 ... where we have to sort this out and, like, but wa- let the ship wash itself back and forth until it rights.

Andrew Doyle 26:21 Yeah, so how, how, and how do you ensure that it's not gonna happen to you? Like, I think about that. There was a national conservative conference in Brussels about a year and a half ago. The local mayor said, "I don't like this," and he had the police rush it, shut it down, and you had mainstream right-wing figures like Nigel Farage, Suella Braverman.

Joe Rogan 26:37 [exhales]

Andrew Doyle 26:37 How do they not think, "Hang on a minute, if we establish that precedent, where you can just shut down your political opponents through the use of police force, how will that not rebound on me? How will that not happen to us?"

Joe Rogan 26:47 Well, this is the argument that they're using right now for Trump going after his political opponents.

Andrew Doyle 26:51 Right, right, 'cause they opened that Pandora's box, right?

Joe Rogan 26:53 Right. You guys did that with him.

Andrew Doyle 26:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:55 You're, you're... And everybody was saying how damn dangerous it is.

Andrew Doyle 26:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:59 You can't fucking do that, even if you hate the guy. If, like, if there's a real crime that you can get someone... But when you take a crime, like the bookkeeping stuff-

Andrew Doyle 27:08 Yeah

Joe Rogan 27:08 ... and turn it into a felony, that could put this man in jail for the rest of his life for doing something that turns out to be legal, you can pay people to shut up.

Andrew Doyle 27:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:17 And this is so- it's just, it's so weird that people, for this short-term gain-

Andrew Doyle 27:23 Yeah

Joe Rogan 27:23 ... are willing to tank, which is essentially this whole structure of our civilization that allows free discourse. You need it. It's so important, so important to be able to communicate and talk. If podcasts didn't exist, there was no way to talk through ideas-

Andrew Doyle 27:39 Mm

Joe Rogan 27:40 ... other than mainstream news, we would still be stuck in some very bizarre 1990s or 1980s narrative about how the world works.

Andrew Doyle 27:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:49 We would have real problems. We'd have real problems if there wasn't independent journalism, like on Twitter and on wherever they can post.

Andrew Doyle 27:58 Yeah, so why don't they get it? I mean, we've had, like, people in left-leaning papers in the UK calling for Elon Musk to be arrested-

Joe Rogan 28:04 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 28:04 ... because he's allowing free speech on X or Twitter, whatever you wanna call it. Like, what, what-

Joe Rogan 28:08 Well, their offices got raided today-

Andrew Doyle 28:11 Did it?

Joe Rogan 28:11 ... in some country. There was a country where X's offices got raided. Um, I think one of the things was they somehow or another let- there were s- uh, I think something had to do with child pornography.

Andrew Doyle 28:25 Where was that? France?

Joe Rogan 28:26 France.

Andrew Doyle 28:27 Wow.

Joe Rogan 28:27 French investigation into Grok. And what is it, what are the-

Andrew Doyle 28:32 Oh, so you know what this is all about.

Joe Rogan 28:33 Scenarios.

Andrew Doyle 28:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:34 Suspected offences including unlawful data extraction and complicity in the possession of child pornography.

Andrew Doyle 28:41 Yeah, but that's not what this is about. This is because people have been misusing Grok to, like, put bikinis on women they like, or it cr- even in a few-

Joe Rogan 28:48 Oh

Andrew Doyle 28:48 ... horrible cases, creating child, child sexual stuff.

Joe Rogan 28:51 You can do... Wait a minute, you can't create child pornography on Grok.

Andrew Doyle 28:54 I don't think you can. No! Or, or, or, or at least I think that's very much been shut down and safeguarded, right? I think that's what's happened.

Joe Rogan 28:59 But I mean, unless there's, like, some sort of a loophole where you could get it to do it. Among potential crimes, it said it would investigate where complicity and possession or organized distribution of images of children of a pornographic nature, infringement of people's image rights with sexual deepfakes. Okay, the sexual deepfakes.

Andrew Doyle 29:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:17 So sexual deepfakes is like if you put Hillary Clinton in a bikini and made her hot, that's a sexual deepfake.

Andrew Doyle 29:23 Okay.

Joe Rogan 29:24 Right? Fraudulent data extraction by an organized group. I think you can still do some of that stuff.

Andrew Doyle 29:29 You can put people in bikinis.

Joe Rogan 29:30 Yeah, I think you can do that. So, like, if you wanted to take Shaquille O'Neal and put him in a bikini, sh- you could say you're sexualizing him.

Andrew Doyle 29:37 Okay. I, I... Yeah. I mean, I guess you can do that.

Joe Rogan 29:40 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 29:40 So but that's what- so that'll be why, you know, recently, Keir Starmer, Prime Minister of UK, said he wanted to- or was considering, or not necessarily he was gonna ban X, but it wasn't off the table. It's something like he- [chuckles] as though he's gonna do that. But this is always the excuse, like-

Joe Rogan 29:54 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 29:54 ... we're protecting children.

Joe Rogan 29:55 Right.

Andrew Doyle 29:55 And, and look, no one wants that sort of stuff, right?

Joe Rogan 29:58 Of course.

Andrew Doyle 29:58 No one wants deepfakes of kids, ob- obviously. But there's far... I mean, looking at the stats on that, there's far more child sexual, sexual exploitation on Snapchat, for instance. But they don't go after Snapchat, because Snapchat isn't the forum where Keir Starmer is getting criticized every single day and brutally hauled over the coals by-

Joe Rogan 30:14 Right

Andrew Doyle 30:14 ... by people checking his facts. One of the best things about X recently is the Community Notes. Checking, the-

Joe Rogan 30:20 Yes

Andrew Doyle 30:20 ... checking journalists and politicians in real time with facts, they hate it.

Joe Rogan 30:23 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 30:23 They hate that. So no wonder they're going after X.

Joe Rogan 30:26 Yeah, Biden got cooked by Community Notes multiple times.

Andrew Doyle 30:29 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:29 To the point where the administration was taking down posts.

Andrew Doyle 30:32 Yeah. So did the, uh, The Guardian, the left-leaning newspaper. It flounced off X with a big statement saying, "We're going to Blue Sky. We've had it."

Joe Rogan 30:39 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 30:39 "We're off to Blue Sky." It was such a flounce.

Joe Rogan 30:42 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 30:42 And of course... And then, of course, everyone was retweeting all the, their Community Notes. They had loads of them.

Joe Rogan 30:47 Of course.

Andrew Doyle 30:47 Just absolutely loads of them, so-

Joe Rogan 30:48 'Cause it's not true, and, you know, especially when it's open to the whole world-

Andrew Doyle 30:52 Yeah

Joe Rogan 30:52 ... and people that aren't stuck under your guidelines. Like in America, we could just talk shit.

Andrew Doyle 30:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:57 And I think the reason why it's in France probably has a lot to do with Candace Owens.

Andrew Doyle 31:01 It... Oh, yes, that makes complete sense.

Joe Rogan 31:03 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 31:04 That makes sense.

Joe Rogan 31:04 Brigitte Macron, and like-

Andrew Doyle 31:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 31:05 ... I mean, how many times did that get shared?

Andrew Doyle 31:08 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 31:09 I mean, that is-

Andrew Doyle 31:10 ... That makes sense of it now.

Joe Rogan 31:11 By the way, there's a real quick way to solve that.

Andrew Doyle 31:14 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 31:14 Open chromosome test.

Andrew Doyle 31:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:16 Go ahead and do it.

Andrew Doyle 31:17 Oh, I thought you were gonna be a bit more graphic than that.

Joe Rogan 31:19 But I don't have to.

Andrew Doyle 31:19 No, you don't have to.

Joe Rogan 31:21 Because that doesn't really solve it, because you could... If, unless, I mean, there's no operation, but if-

Andrew Doyle 31:25 Yeah

Joe Rogan 31:25 ... she's gone through a surgery, then, you know, you could show a picture, and it's probably pretty realistic, especially, when's the last time you saw a 70-year-old lady's cooter, you know?

Andrew Doyle 31:34 Uh, last week.

Joe Rogan 31:35 Oh, yeah.

Andrew Doyle 31:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:35 Congratulations.

Andrew Doyle 31:36 I'm just interested in that sort of thing.

Joe Rogan 31:37 Well-

Andrew Doyle 31:38 No

Joe Rogan 31:38 ... you know, you're allowed to be curious-

Andrew Doyle 31:39 Yeah. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 31:39 -in this country.

Andrew Doyle 31:40 That's actually a really good example, though, isn't it? Of the just m- something so obviously not true, just b- going all over the world-

Joe Rogan 31:46 Yes

Andrew Doyle 31:46 ... like the, like, in a, in a matter of moments.

Joe Rogan 31:48 Is it not true, though?

Andrew Doyle 31:49 Well, the, uh, um, Macron's wife is a man.

Joe Rogan 31:51 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 31:52 Yeah, that's not true.

Joe Rogan 31:52 100%?

Andrew Doyle 31:53 Well, uh, you know, the burden of proof is on those [chuckles] who want to say that it is true. I would say that.

Joe Rogan 31:57 The reality of the story is weird enough without it being true.

Andrew Doyle 32:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 32:00 Like, the 40-year-old man and the-

Andrew Doyle 32:02 He was... Wasn't she his, his school teacher?

Joe Rogan 32:04 She was 40, yeah.

Andrew Doyle 32:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:05 She was 40, if it was, if it, if it is actually a woman. She was 40, and he was 15. That's crazy.

Andrew Doyle 32:11 And everyone says, "Well, they're French." That's, that seems to be the-

Joe Rogan 32:14 Right

Andrew Doyle 32:14 ... that seems to be the thing.

Joe Rogan 32:15 What a wild country. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 32:16 That, that's, that's... [laughing] People just say, "That's the way it works in France." Yep, but I, again, look, I would say with all of this stuff, you need some sort of proof. You need so-

Joe Rogan 32:26 Right

Andrew Doyle 32:26 ... like, when you, when you, wasn't it the Carl Sagan thing about extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? I think that's a pretty safe diktat. The idea that, okay, anything could be true, you know?

Joe Rogan 32:34 Right.

Andrew Doyle 32:34 Or, you know, there have been crazy conspiracies that turned out to be true, so I'm not... I would never rule anything out. But what I'm saying is, if you're gonna make a claim like that, you better be damn sure you've got really solid evidence about that, right?

Joe Rogan 32:47 Yeah. She's got hours-long documentaries on this.

Andrew Doyle 32:51 Yeah, and are they-

Joe Rogan 32:52 It's-

Andrew Doyle 32:52 Are they persuasive?

Joe Rogan 32:53 ... so weird. I haven't watched them all.

Andrew Doyle 32:54 I haven't watched them, same.

Joe Rogan 32:54 You think I have that kind of time, dog? [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 32:56 [laughing] Well, you should do. What-- you should do your research before... You're part of the problem. Outrageous.

Joe Rogan 33:03 I can't do research on that.

Andrew Doyle 33:05 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 33:05 I, I, I want to wait till it plays out in court.

Andrew Doyle 33:07 But whenever I do do research... Like, I'll give you the, the example from this week, just 'cause I'm reading it now. A woman's written a book claiming that Shakespeare was a Black woman.

Joe Rogan 33:15 Oh, I saw that. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 33:16 Yeah. Um, [laughing] so, so, um, this is a major spoiler alert: Shakespeare wasn't a Black woman, by the way.

Joe Rogan 33:22 Crazy!

Andrew Doyle 33:22 Yeah. I've got the book. I'm, I'm reading the book now. Um, it is worse than you imagine. Part of the evidence-

Joe Rogan 33:28 How could it be worse than I imagine?

Andrew Doyle 33:29 Because, because... It's obviously not true, firstly, right?

Joe Rogan 33:32 Of course.

Andrew Doyle 33:32 But, but, but, um, she basically says in the book [chuckles] that, um, it's important that it should be true, and therefore-

Joe Rogan 33:38 What?

Andrew Doyle 33:38 Yeah, and in fact, the book opens with a picture of Shakespeare as a Black woman, which was drawn by the author.

Joe Rogan 33:44 Oh. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 33:45 That's, that's, that... So-

Joe Rogan 33:46 Is it a good drawing?

Andrew Doyle 33:47 Not... It's okay. I, again-

Joe Rogan 33:49 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 33:49 ... I don't want to mock someone else.

Joe Rogan 33:50 Can I see it?

Andrew Doyle 33:50 No, it's-

Joe Rogan 33:51 Can I see it?

Andrew Doyle 33:52 If it's out, it's the front, it's the first-

Speaker 33:54 It's the one on the cover.

Andrew Doyle 33:54 Oh, that's the book.

Joe Rogan 33:55 Oh, it's actually pretty good.

Andrew Doyle 33:56 No, no, that's-

Joe Rogan 33:56 Good drawing.

Andrew Doyle 33:56 No, no, no. That's-

Joe Rogan 33:57 That's a Black woman?

Andrew Doyle 33:58 No, no, no.

Speaker 33:59 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 33:59 That's a portrait of Emilia Lanier, who she says was Shakespeare, and she says that the portraits at the time were whitened to disguise her Blackness.

Joe Rogan 34:07 Ah.

Andrew Doyle 34:07 In, in the book itself-

Joe Rogan 34:08 How convenient.

Andrew Doyle 34:09 Uh, in the book itself, you won't be able to get it in the book, I don't think, Jamie, but in the book itself, there's a sketch that she's done. So it's like, I can imagine a publisher saying, "Oh, what evidence have you got?" And she's like: "Oh, well, I'll, I'll go and draw it for you," and that's sort of what she's done.

Joe Rogan 34:21 Oh, she's Black and Jewish?

Andrew Doyle 34:23 Yeah, Black, Jewish. Well, actually, I mean, Emilia Lanier was part, part Moorish, but wasn't Black, and she wasn't, uh, particularly dark-skinned.

Joe Rogan 34:30 And she was Jewish as well?

Andrew Doyle 34:31 Yeah, part Jewish.

Joe Rogan 34:32 Okay, so who is this woman that they're saying actually was Shakespeare?

Andrew Doyle 34:36 Uh, so she's called Emilia Lanier or Amelia Bassano. Um, and one of the arguments is that Shakespeare, at the time, if she was a woman, uh, wouldn't have been able to get published 'cause women couldn't get published. But Emilia Lanier was published. She had a book of poetry.

Joe Rogan 34:50 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 34:50 So all of this stuff falls apart, like, in two seconds flat.

Joe Rogan 34:53 [exhaling]

Andrew Doyle 34:54 And she-

Joe Rogan 34:54 Oh.

Andrew Doyle 34:54 All right, this is the best one. She even says in the book that, um, the word Shakespeare is an anagram of, uh, a she speaker.

Joe Rogan 35:03 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 35:05 I'm not making that up. That's what she says. I mean-

Joe Rogan 35:10 [exhaling] Oh.

Andrew Doyle 35:10 You know, y- listen, so-

Joe Rogan 35:11 What a cover-up. How'd she crack the case?

Andrew Doyle 35:13 [laughing] Well, actually, it's an old theory. It's, it's like a 20-year-old theory.

Joe Rogan 35:16 Is it really?

Andrew Doyle 35:17 I, I tell you-

Joe Rogan 35:18 20 years old?

Andrew Doyle 35:18 ... I, uh, she's just sort of rehashing it now for this identitarian, post-woke world, where we're all, like, we're desperate for Shakespeare to be a Black woman. And-

Joe Rogan 35:25 Oh.

Andrew Doyle 35:26 A- and it's so-

Joe Rogan 35:26 It's so fun. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 35:27 It's so pathetic. But this was my first encounter with conspiracy theories, 'cause my background is, I did a doctorate in Shakespeare. My background was teaching Shakespeare back in the day, like, before I did comedy and before I did anything else. And it was the conspiracy theorists around Shakespeare saying Shakespeare couldn't have written his work. They are the most intense, the most angry, the most evidence-free cohort of people you can... They get more- they're more angrier than the woke, I promise you. Like, I've tweeted-

Joe Rogan 35:52 Really?

Andrew Doyle 35:53 ... I've written stuff about Shakespeare online. I, I recently did some lectures about Shakespeare for the Peterson Academy, 'cause I'm really into help- I, I love the Peterson Academy. I love what they're doing. And I did these Shakespeare lectures, and the conspiracy theorists were onto me online, saying, "It wasn't Shakes- he, you, he, the guy from Stratford didn't write this." And, and what all these theories have in common is they've just made- they, there's no evidence. There's no evidence. The key point about Shakespeare is, if you're gonna say it wasn't the guy who everyone thought it was, you have to answer one key question: Why does everyone who knew Shakespeare, wrote about Shakespeare, say that it was him?

Joe Rogan 36:22 Can I stop you? Because I'm confused.

Andrew Doyle 36:24 Go on.

Joe Rogan 36:24 I didn't even know that there was a conspiracy about Shakespeare.

Andrew Doyle 36:27 Oh, wow! Yeah, there's lots.

Joe Rogan 36:29 I had heard one person say that Shakespeare wasn't real, and that it was really someone else's work that he plagiarized.

Andrew Doyle 36:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:37 I had heard that.

Andrew Doyle 36:38 So there's-

Joe Rogan 36:38 But I never even bothered to fuck around with it.

Andrew Doyle 36:41 Well, it ca- actually came from America. It's you guys.

Joe Rogan 36:43 Of course.

Andrew Doyle 36:43 Uh, um, it was- [laughing]

Joe Rogan 36:44 We're the best. We're number one.

Andrew Doyle 36:46 There's a guy called Loon-

Joe Rogan 36:47 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 36:47 ... a guy called Looney, actually, from America.

Joe Rogan 36:48 That's hilarious.

Andrew Doyle 36:49 That's his name.

Joe Rogan 36:50 You gotta listen to that guy? [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 36:51 [laughing] So he c- uh, we're going back, like, 60, 70 years or something, but he came up with this idea that Shakespeare was actually an aristocrat called Edward de Vere, the Earl of Oxford. The problem is, Ed- Edward de Vere died in 1604. That's before Macbeth, that's before Antony and Cleopatra, that's before Coriolanus, that's before The Tempest.

Joe Rogan 37:07 Ah.

Andrew Doyle 37:07 So he managed to... I think they get around it by saying he wrote these plays-... and then he, and then he died, and then the plays got-

Joe Rogan 37:13 And Shakespeare found them?

Andrew Doyle 37:15 Or, or the, or something. Yeah, so, so-

Joe Rogan 37:17 Mm-hmm

Andrew Doyle 37:17 ... even though s- some of those plays actually have cultural references from the time after de Vere died. But it doesn't matter, maybe he was a prophet as well. [laughs] But, but, but all of the, all of the g- You, you speak to these people, you'll, you'll see what I mean. Edward de Vere, they think, some people think it was Francis Bacon, some people think it was Christopher Marlowe, some people think it was Elizabeth I. Like, all, all of the candidates they put up, right, the key thing is they're all aristocrats, they're all posh. Why? 'Cause Shakespeare was a middle class, lower middle class, not very rich-

Joe Rogan 37:43 Mm-hmm

Andrew Doyle 37:43 ... didn't go to university, came from the Midlands. You know, up-and-coming guy who sh- And they say, "Well, how could someone like that write about kings, and lords, and ladies?" It's snobbery. They're basically saying, working-class people can't do, can't do art.

Joe Rogan 37:57 Right.

Andrew Doyle 37:57 That, I mean, really, that's what it is.

Joe Rogan 37:59 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 37:59 Otherwise, they wouldn't be going after all these aristocrats. And-

Joe Rogan 38:02 And in the U- it's the opposite in America, oddly.

Andrew Doyle 38:05 Is it?

Joe Rogan 38:05 Yeah. So if you were a Rockefeller in America, you're from the Rockefeller family, and you wrote an amazing novel, no one would believe it.

Andrew Doyle 38:12 Right. Okay, so pe- okay.

Joe Rogan 38:13 They would say, "No, that has to be, like, some guy who, or some woman who's, like, grinding, drinking coffee, and smoking cigarettes alone in their apartment to write something this brilliant."

Andrew Doyle 38:23 So I wonder what it is about the UK. Well, although, like I say, a lot of it comes from America. And is it just the i- the need to tear down an icon? Is it that? Is it-

Joe Rogan 38:32 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 38:32 I mean, I get it now with this woman who's, who's saying Shakespeare was a Black woman. I get that at the moment because we're in this moment of identitarian group identity mania, right?

Joe Rogan 38:41 Uh-huh.

Andrew Doyle 38:42 So that makes sense. She's got a political reason why she wants it to be a Black woman.

Joe Rogan 38:45 Right.

Andrew Doyle 38:45 So I kind of understand that more, but what is it... I think it might be more to do with the idea that this guy changed civilisation, changed literature. No one else has achieved what he achieved in writing. He's up there with Michelangelo, Bach, you know, all of the... Let's tear that down. Let's tear down Western civilisation. Let's say, none of this is based on anything. This is all, this is all untrue.

Joe Rogan 39:04 Right.

Andrew Doyle 39:05 I think it's to do with the, that innate iconoclasm, that innate let- you know, just, just t- tearing down the great things about our culture.

Joe Rogan 39:12 Yeah, for sure. That's always been the case, and pe- and people always want to tear down idols.

Andrew Doyle 39:17 Mm.

Joe Rogan 39:17 They want to tear down, you know, whoever it is, no matter what. I was watching this video we were talking about the other day, of this woman talking about how the Beatles were terrible.

Andrew Doyle 39:24 Right. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 39:24 And this woman was not very articulate, not particularly interesting, doesn't seem that compelling.

Andrew Doyle 39:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:30 And she was going on and on about how bad the Beatles were. I'm like-

Andrew Doyle 39:33 Yeah

Joe Rogan 39:33 ... "You're not gonna convince anyone. That's just not-"

Andrew Doyle 39:35 No

Joe Rogan 39:35 ... "gonna work," but people are gonna fucking try. They're gonna try no matter what, no matter who it is. "Hendrix sucked," I've heard that before.

Andrew Doyle 39:41 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan 39:42 "Hendrix sucked." Like, s- stop!

Andrew Doyle 39:44 But at least that's based on an opinion, right?

Joe Rogan 39:47 Yes, right.

Andrew Doyle 39:47 There's a d- there's a difference between saying Jimi Hendrix sucked and Jimi Hendrix was actually a, a woman from Liverpool called Maud.

Joe Rogan 39:52 Well, you know the theory about Jimi Hendrix in America? Do you know that?

Andrew Doyle 39:56 No. No.

Joe Rogan 39:56 Okay. So it's the people that are, like, deep into the CIA-

Andrew Doyle 40:02 Okay

Joe Rogan 40:02 ... and CIA conspiracies, and the... What is it called? Strange Tales from the Canyon, is that what it's called, the book? Um, so there's a book on, there's a bizarre connection between a lot of the countercultural figures of the 1960s-

Andrew Doyle 40:16 Right

Joe Rogan 40:16 ... and, and the intelligence community. Uh, one of them is Jim Morrison's father was, like, a high-ranking military officer, and then there's different people from different bands that were, like, a key part of the countercultural movement, that all have parents that were either in intelligence communities or r- c- closely connected to it.

Andrew Doyle 40:37 Like a suspicious-

Joe Rogan 40:38 Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon. It's a crazy book. It's, uh, it's fun. It's kind of fun. Uh-

Andrew Doyle 40:43 Is it crazy as in, like, the revelations are crazy, or that it's just not true?

Joe Rogan 40:47 Well, it, they, they make some broad leaps, right?

Andrew Doyle 40:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:51 So there's a lot of, "And then a year later, he died in mysterious circumstances," or, "A year later, he died from suicide," or, "A year later, he died from an overdose." You know, like, well-

Andrew Doyle 40:59 Yeah

Joe Rogan 40:59 ... well, okay. You're hanging out with a bunch of people that are doing drugs all the time, and they're all ne'er-do-wells-

Andrew Doyle 41:04 Yeah

Joe Rogan 41:04 ... and they're all hanging out in Laurel Canyon.

Andrew Doyle 41:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:06 If you don't know Laurel Canyon, Laurel Canyon, at least at the time... I mean, when I first moved to Hollywood, it's like all the weirdos would live in Laurel Canyon.

Andrew Doyle 41:15 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 41:15 Like, all the weirdos were, like, right there above Hollywood, and there was all these crazy parties up there. It was like Laurel Canyon was nuts.

Andrew Doyle 41:23 And they all knew each other, right?

Joe Rogan 41:23 Right.

Andrew Doyle 41:23 So they're all part of that circle.

Joe Rogan 41:25 So-

Andrew Doyle 41:25 Okay

Joe Rogan 41:25 ... I mean, this was, like, when I moved there in the '90s, this was the case. My friend Dave Foley had a house up there.

Andrew Doyle 41:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 41:32 And it was, like, all these kooky people, and he was telling me about all these kooky parties and all this different shit. It was like Laurel Canyon was always, like, kind of... So of course, a bunch of people are gonna die.

Andrew Doyle 41:41 So what's the theory then?

Joe Rogan 41:41 Of course, a bunch of people are gonna be connected to bands and, and different-

Andrew Doyle 41:45 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 41:45 ... counterculture movements. The theory is that the CIA, um, sort of engineered this, this culture-

Andrew Doyle 41:54 Mm

Joe Rogan 41:54 ... to, I don't know why. I'm, I'm not exactly sure 'cause I haven't gotten all the way through the book. I'm only, like, halfway through.

Andrew Doyle 42:00 Oh, you're still, you're still reading it? Okay.

Joe Rogan 42:01 No, I pick it up every now and then.

Andrew Doyle 42:03 Okay.

Joe Rogan 42:03 It's just like, it's too kooky. It's-

Andrew Doyle 42:05 It's not grabbing you.

Joe Rogan 42:07 Well, [sighs] you can't make Jimi Hendrix in a lab, okay?

Andrew Doyle 42:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:13 You can't. It's just you can't fucking do it. You can't make someone that good. It's not possible.

Andrew Doyle 42:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:19 You can't tell me that... If they did, why haven't they done it since? Why don't they do it all the time?

Andrew Doyle 42:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:24 Because-

Andrew Doyle 42:24 Well, that, so-

Joe Rogan 42:24 ... greatest guitarist of all time, and you're telling me the Central Intelligence cooked that guy up?

Andrew Doyle 42:29 So they invented him. L- like, he's like, uh, their clone or something. They created-

Joe Rogan 42:33 Well, I just think that they had some sort of an influence on these people, on Jim Morrison. Like, there was a thing about Morrison, Mor- the Morrison one. Like, what is the connection between Jim Morrison's dad and the intelligence agencies? There's some, like, tangible connection with-

Andrew Doyle 42:49 Okay

Joe Rogan 42:49 ... Jim Morrison's dad. But wouldn't you just normally assume that if your dad was some high-ranking military guy, first of all, never home.

Andrew Doyle 42:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:57 Okay? So where are you? You're out running around with your friends, smoking cigarettes, and fucking drinking, and you're in a band, and it turns out you got a lot of angst and pain because you're being neglected as, as a child, 'cause your dad works 16 hours a day trying to fuck the country over. And so what do you do? You, you go counterculture.

Andrew Doyle 43:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:15 It's like-... it's so com- the preacher's daughter, she becomes, like, a harlot, right?

Andrew Doyle 43:19 So there we go, high-ranking US officer with- yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:22 Right.

Andrew Doyle 43:22 But that is- okay, but again, like, this is a perfect example.

Joe Rogan 43:25 Wow, he's involved in the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Whoa!

Andrew Doyle 43:28 But that's not proof of anything.

Joe Rogan 43:29 No-

Andrew Doyle 43:29 That's not, that, this is-

Joe Rogan 43:30 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, but his dad is.

Andrew Doyle 43:32 Yeah, but, but-

Joe Rogan 43:32 His dad

Andrew Doyle 43:32 ... but, but, you know, but this is the thing: they'll take something like that, they'll take various strips of coincidences, and they say, "This leads us to this conclusion," but all they're doing is-

Joe Rogan 43:39 Of course

Andrew Doyle 43:40 ... coming up with a conclusion first and working backwards. Like, th- th- this sort of stuff, you see it again and again.

Joe Rogan 43:46 So this is, how this connects with intelligence agencies, McGowan, I guess that's the author, [sniffs] core move is to group Morrison's father with other Laurel Canyon musicians' parents who worked in military, defense, or intelligence-linked roles, and to frame this as evidence of a broader covert program around the 1960s-

Andrew Doyle 44:04 Okay

Joe Rogan 44:04 ... rock scene.

Andrew Doyle 44:05 Come on.

Joe Rogan 44:06 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 44:06 So are you saying that the CIA were trying to influence the culture through the medium of rock music?

Joe Rogan 44:12 Uh-huh.

Andrew Doyle 44:13 Uh, uh, and that's somehow tied to espionage, and-

Speaker 44:15 They also have that film-

Andrew Doyle 44:17 The- [clears throat]

Speaker 44:17 ... uh, like, studio.

Andrew Doyle 44:19 What's that?

Joe Rogan 44:20 What?

Speaker 44:20 Jared Leto bought that place that was a film studio in Laurel Canyon, too.

Joe Rogan 44:24 Oh, well, it's a base.

Speaker 44:25 I mean-

Joe Rogan 44:25 It's a, it's an actual base.

Speaker 44:26 But there were films-

Joe Rogan 44:26 Yeah, Jared Leto [chuckles]

Speaker 44:27 ... a lot of films were made.

Joe Rogan 44:28 I was talking to Jared about that. I had di- I had dinner with Jared Leto one night. He's very cool, by the way. Very, really nice guy, very normal. And by the way, he looks like he's 30. He's 50 years old. It's crazy. I'm like-

Andrew Doyle 44:39 Moisturizer or something

Joe Rogan 44:39 ... "What are you doing with your fucking skin?" [laughing]

Speaker 44:41 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 44:41 "You look great."

Speaker 44:42 Lookout Mountain-

Joe Rogan 44:43 Yeah

Speaker 44:43 ... Laboratory Air Force Station.

Andrew Doyle 44:44 Okay.

Joe Rogan 44:44 So he bought that place and converted it into a home. [laughing] It's where he lives. It's a dope spot.

Speaker 44:51 Soundstage.

Andrew Doyle 44:51 Looks quite nice.

Joe Rogan 44:52 Soundstage, film laboratory, two screening rooms, four editing rooms, an animation and still photo department, sound mixing studio, and numerous climate-controlled film vaults.

Andrew Doyle 45:01 And this is connected to the conspiracy somehow?

Joe Rogan 45:03 Well, this was an actual military base.

Andrew Doyle 45:04 Right.

Speaker 45:04 Located in that same neighborhood.

Andrew Doyle 45:07 Okay.

Joe Rogan 45:07 So this Air Force station, whatever it was, I wonder what they were doing. Like, why did they need all that film capability?

Speaker 45:15 They were gonna-

Joe Rogan 45:15 Why would they need to be in-

Speaker 45:16 In theory, I guess, the... Like, when they would show the atomic bombs going off and would play it in the movie theater for people to see it.

Joe Rogan 45:21 Oh!

Speaker 45:22 That's, like, that's how they would make the actual, like, you know, reels and whatnot, and-

Joe Rogan 45:25 Well, that makes sense

Speaker 45:26 ... spread it around.

Joe Rogan 45:26 Right? Makes sense that they were right there in Hollywood, if that's what they were doing.

Speaker 45:30 On top, I don't... What other, other things they made? See, like, here's a, the s- the still from-

Andrew Doyle 45:35 Oh, okay

Speaker 45:35 ... Lookout Mountain Laboratory.

Andrew Doyle 45:36 So it's just a studio then?

Speaker 45:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:37 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 45:37 A special effects studio.

Speaker 45:38 But it, but it's in that same neighborhood at the s- at the same time.

Andrew Doyle 45:40 Yeah, but so what?

Speaker 45:41 I, you know.

Andrew Doyle 45:42 I mean, I, I think with all of it [laughing] ...

Joe Rogan 45:44 [laughing] He's not, he's not arguing for it.

Andrew Doyle 45:46 Yeah, Goddamn it, Jamie!

Speaker 45:47 The so what of it is-

Andrew Doyle 45:48 I-

Speaker 45:48 ... the so what of it is that there wasn't that many of them to begin with, and just they all happened to be in the same-

Andrew Doyle 45:52 But do, do, but do you not think with all of this stuff-

Speaker 45:53 down the street from each other

Andrew Doyle 45:53 ... like, again and again-

Speaker 45:54 It's odd

Andrew Doyle 45:54 ... the pattern is either there's gaps, there's gaps in what we know, and people decide to fill them in themselves, 'cause there's a kind of comfort to that.

Joe Rogan 46:02 Uh-huh.

Andrew Doyle 46:02 There's also some kind of comfort with, "I know something that no one else does. I've got the answer."

Joe Rogan 46:06 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 46:06 And there, there, there's a status element to that. I remember... I read a book when I was a kid, like teenager, called The Sacred Virgin and the Holy Whore, and it was about- [laughing] Um, the sort of books I read. And it was about, um, Jesus, and it was trying to prove that Jesus was a woman.

Joe Rogan 46:19 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 46:19 And, and, and as you're reading it, you're thinking, "Yeah, oh, yeah-

Joe Rogan 46:23 Ugh

Andrew Doyle 46:23 ... Jesus is a woman! I can't believe I fi- look at that." And then you get to the end, and you think, "What the hell did I just read?" And, and it's that thing of, you can marshal any kind of, uh, half-baked fact or any, uh, you can ma- marshal- [snorts] certain things that we can see, and fill in the gaps yourself, and lead to a crazy conclusion. What concerns me isn't so much that people do that, 'cause people have done that forever, a- as long as they've been human beings, is that now people are leaping at it and falling for it in a way that I haven't seen... Maybe it is just social media, right? But-

Joe Rogan 46:50 It is.

Andrew Doyle 46:51 Can I give you an example of this, though?

Joe Rogan 46:52 Yeah, please.

Andrew Doyle 46:53 A recent one, which I just thought was nuts. Did you see the portrait of King Charles III by an artist, I think his name is Yeo, Y-E-O? Um, a red- it's a big, red portrait, which currently hangs in Buckingham Palace.

Joe Rogan 47:05 Oh, I have seen that. It's crazy.

Andrew Doyle 47:07 If you take a qua- a quarter of it, invert it, flip it, add a bit, and squint, it looks like a goat devil, right?

Joe Rogan 47:14 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 47:14 But you have to do a lot of steps to find the goat devil.

Joe Rogan 47:16 Well, of course-

Andrew Doyle 47:17 And you could-

Joe Rogan 47:17 ... it's a puzzle.

Andrew Doyle 47:18 You could prob- [laughing]

Joe Rogan 47:19 How dare you?

Andrew Doyle 47:21 I'm sorry.

Joe Rogan 47:21 How dare you dismiss that puzzle? Let's have-

Andrew Doyle 47:23 You could-

Joe Rogan 47:23 ... So show the photo and show how it's done, 'cause it's kind of fun.

Andrew Doyle 47:25 I wonder if you... Can you see the go-

Speaker 47:26 [clears throat]

Andrew Doyle 47:26 Oh, there we go. So can you see the goat as well?

Joe Rogan 47:28 First of all, just the photo by itself, like, "Hey, man, what the fuck are you doing?"

Andrew Doyle 47:33 Oh, it's a creepy picture. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 47:34 "Why am I splattered in blood?"

Andrew Doyle 47:36 I've seen it in the flesh. It's a, it's a creepy picture, you know?

Joe Rogan 47:38 One thing, if he did that in all white, it was an all-white background, that would be one thing. Like, "Oh, that's kind of an interesting look," or pa- you know, pastel-

Andrew Doyle 47:46 So what are you saying, Joe?

Joe Rogan 47:47 Something gray.

Andrew Doyle 47:47 Are you already suspicious, is that what you're saying?

Joe Rogan 47:49 Yeah, well, the, the photo's nuts. Like, the painting is nuts.

Andrew Doyle 47:52 Where's the goat?

Joe Rogan 47:53 So all you have to do is put it together side by side. You don't have to do that much. You exaggerated how much you have to do.

Andrew Doyle 47:58 No, I saw a video that-

Joe Rogan 47:59 No, no, no, no, no, trust me

Speaker 48:00 Looking at it upside down looks-

Andrew Doyle 48:01 Oh, no, look.

Joe Rogan 48:02 I... Well, the other way, I, I found a goat. [chuckles]

Speaker 48:04 With horns.

Joe Rogan 48:04 Put it back. Put it back.

Andrew Doyle 48:05 Wait a minute, wait a minute.

Joe Rogan 48:06 Show that one.

Andrew Doyle 48:06 Oh, oh, wait a minute.

Speaker 48:07 Look at that one.

Andrew Doyle 48:07 I can completely-

Joe Rogan 48:08 Oh, yeah

Andrew Doyle 48:08 ... see the goat now.

Joe Rogan 48:09 That's 100% a goat.

Andrew Doyle 48:10 It's a-

Joe Rogan 48:10 They did it on purpose.

Andrew Doyle 48:11 It's a sm-

Joe Rogan 48:12 That is, that's a s- that's a sign.

Andrew Doyle 48:14 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 48:14 Go back to the other one, though. Click on that one. I see a goat there.

Andrew Doyle 48:17 Where?

Joe Rogan 48:17 I see some evil demon-

Speaker 48:18 Right here

Joe Rogan 48:18 ... looking at two eyeballs.

Speaker 48:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah, bro.

Andrew Doyle 48:20 Where?

Joe Rogan 48:21 100%. Stop! Stop trying to gaslight me.

Andrew Doyle 48:24 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 48:24 I see a monster. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 48:27 Oh, well, I mean-

Joe Rogan 48:28 You can find something in everything, man.

Speaker 48:30 This one looks all superimposed, though. I think-

Joe Rogan 48:31 I mean, you see-

Andrew Doyle 48:32 I can see Martha Stewart in that.

Joe Rogan 48:34 The Virgin Mary-

Andrew Doyle 48:35 So what?

Joe Rogan 48:35 ... in a grilled cheese sandwich.

Andrew Doyle 48:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 48:36 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 48:36 You can see it in the clouds-

Joe Rogan 48:37 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 48:37 ... and the rocks, and like, like-

Joe Rogan 48:38 Of course

Andrew Doyle 48:38 ... there's a term for this, where our brains look for patterns and things, and-

Joe Rogan 48:41 I had a conversation once with a, a friend of mine that I didn't know was going crazy.

Andrew Doyle 48:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 48:45 And uh, he goes, "Uh, hey, you wanna see something crazy?" And he, he pulls out his phone, and he shows me a cloud.

Andrew Doyle 48:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:52 And I go, "What is that?" He goes, "Dude, I'm seeing this all day." And he, he shows me some other ones. He's got, like, hundreds of photos of clouds on his phone.

Andrew Doyle 49:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:00 I go, "What are you seeing?" He says, "These are UFOs." He goes, "These are spaceships. This is not a regular cloud."

Andrew Doyle 49:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:06 And I'm looking at the photos, like, he's just been taking pictures of clouds all day, and I realize, "Oh, my God, my friend is going schizophrenic." He's, he... I didn't know him well.

Andrew Doyle 49:15 So, so he was ill?

Joe Rogan 49:15 I would say a friend. Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 49:17 Okay, okay.

Joe Rogan 49:17 The more I talked to him, the more I realized there was something cracked.... like, it is a guy I hadn't seen in, like, maybe seven or eight years, and I ran into him at a comedy club, and he was just showing me photos of clouds on his phone. I was like-

Andrew Doyle 49:29 Wow.

Joe Rogan 49:29 Then in, during the conversation, I realized, "Oh, he cracked."

Andrew Doyle 49:33 But, but aren't you concerned that that kind of thing is now kind of common? Like, that, uh, uh, from people who aren't necessarily unwell, people who are just seeing stuff.

Joe Rogan 49:41 Well, it's fun. I think it's fun-

Andrew Doyle 49:43 Is it? Is that-

Joe Rogan 49:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's exciting for people to uncover information that the general public is ignorant of.

Andrew Doyle 49:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:49 And so there's n- here's the thing about the Laurel Canyon thing. There's enough of the CIA meddling in cultural events that's absolutely true and provable.

Andrew Doyle 49:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:00 And that's MKUltra, and that's what they did with Charles Manson, and that's the book Chaos by Tom O'Neill, which is a brilliant book, which g- is very well documented and details Jolly West and his influence on the Manson family, and how they were influencing these people to try to sabotage the hippie movement.

Andrew Doyle 50:16 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:16 So the hippie movement was this change in culture where all of a sudden, people were rejecting the war movement. They were rejecting... You know, they were free love, and they were doing acid, and people were freaking out. Their kids were just d- disappearing-

Andrew Doyle 50:28 Mm

Joe Rogan 50:28 ... and following the Grateful Dead around. And they took this guy, Charles Manson, this very charismatic con man. They taught him how to dose people up with acid and influence them, and they got them to commit murders.

Andrew Doyle 50:42 But there is evidence for this, right?

Joe Rogan 50:43 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 50:43 So you're talking about a book that is-

Joe Rogan 50:44 Yes

Andrew Doyle 50:44 ... researched-

Joe Rogan 50:45 Right, but the point-

Andrew Doyle 50:46 Backing up its points.

Joe Rogan 50:47 Right. No, you're being logical, and I, you know, you're correct.

Andrew Doyle 50:51 It's-

Joe Rogan 50:51 But what I'm saying is, because of that, people go, "Well, what else?"

Andrew Doyle 50:55 Folks.

Joe Rogan 50:55 "Well, what..." And so then they make these big leaps, like Jimi Hendrix is a CIA creation.

Andrew Doyle 51:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 51:01 And which... But i- if you're a logical person, you just listen to Voodoo Child (Slight Return) -

Andrew Doyle 51:06 Yeah

Joe Rogan 51:06 ... and you're like, "How?"

Andrew Doyle 51:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:08 "How?" This is like, if that's true, CIA should get back to work. Make another one of those, bro.

Andrew Doyle 51:14 So I wonder whether this is... This is, I think this is the fallout of the woke movement. This is the, the divorcing of reality and truth.

Joe Rogan 51:21 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 51:22 The idea that it, that it, that it doesn't matter, not just about what is expedient, but what we want to believe. I've got friends who-

Joe Rogan 51:27 I think we should stop saying it's the fallout of the woke movement. I think we should start saying it's a natural pattern that human beings automatically fall into-

Andrew Doyle 51:37 Sure

Joe Rogan 51:37 ... in order to support their belief systems and enforce their particular ideology over whatever opposing ideology is. So what happens-

Andrew Doyle 51:45 But it's escalated.

Joe Rogan 51:46 It escalates-

Andrew Doyle 51:47 Yeah

Joe Rogan 51:47 ... but it's because of social media that everything is escalating now.

Andrew Doyle 51:50 But is it just social media? I mean, I think another thing that's a major reason for it, we had COVID. We had all these people telling, all these experts telling us it's a racist conspiracy theory to say that it came from a lab in Wuhan. Now everyone knows that's almost certainly true. We had people in positions of authority lying to us.

Joe Rogan 52:07 Right. [clears throat]

Andrew Doyle 52:07 So it's something about this culture war that is ma-

Joe Rogan 52:10 But that's-

Andrew Doyle 52:11 That is-

Joe Rogan 52:11 ... not real culture war. That was using the culture war because they were trying to cover something up. So-

Andrew Doyle 52:17 But this, but they leapt to race, didn't they? They leapt to identity.

Joe Rogan 52:20 Yeah, but that's because they were using the culture war to cover up their crime.

Andrew Doyle 52:24 So if that's... But i- in either case, what, what you've got, effectively, is a legitimation crisis. You've got people in charge. We've been lied to so often, but, but what I don't think you should therefore do... [phone alert] I, like, I'm all for being skeptical about people in authority, [phone alert] academics, politicians, journalists, they've all lied. But that firstly doesn't mean that all experts, and all journalists, and all people have lied, 'cause there's been some good ones all the way. But also, that doesn't mean that you automatically leap to any conclusion, evidence-free, that jumps before you-

Joe Rogan 52:52 Of course

Andrew Doyle 52:53 ... without some kind of critical analysis. The same thing that you're criticizing those people for failing at, you're falling into the same trap yourself. I don't mean you.

Joe Rogan 53:00 But-

Andrew Doyle 53:00 I mean-

Joe Rogan 53:01 ... you're Andrew Doyle. You're a brilliant guy who writes books, and you're-

Andrew Doyle 53:04 Oh

Joe Rogan 53:04 ... really smart.

Andrew Doyle 53:05 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 53:05 The idea is that you are immune to this stuff because you're intelligent, but-

Andrew Doyle 53:10 I'm not immune

Joe Rogan 53:11 ... the unwashed masses are not.

Andrew Doyle 53:14 I don't think I'm immune at all. I don't... I, I, I honestly don't. I wouldn't put myself in that position.

Joe Rogan 53:17 Well, you're immune to the dumbest shit.

Andrew Doyle 53:19 I, I'd like to think so.

Joe Rogan 53:20 You are.

Andrew Doyle 53:21 But, but I, but I-

Joe Rogan 53:22 I am.

Andrew Doyle 53:22 Yeah, but don't you think that w- all of us, in the right circumstances, could end up falling for all of this stuff?

Joe Rogan 53:26 100%, but I'm not in those circumstances-

Andrew Doyle 53:27 No, sure

Joe Rogan 53:28 ... currently.

Andrew Doyle 53:28 But I like to believe, and maybe it's a naivety on my part, but I like to believe that most people are, uh, uh, you know, have a kind of natural intellectual curiosity. You know, have, ha- if they are... I- if they stop for a moment and think, and, and, uh, uh, you know, and, and don't just, uh, trust instinct over reason-

Joe Rogan 53:44 Mm-hmm

Andrew Doyle 53:44 ... I think we're all capable of it. I just think we're not all realizing it.

Joe Rogan 53:48 Well, it's not just that. It's, like, some people are medicated, right?

Andrew Doyle 53:52 Sure.

Joe Rogan 53:52 So some people are on a bunch of different medications that dull their senses.

Andrew Doyle 53:55 Mm.

Joe Rogan 53:56 And then you've got people that have gotten to wherever they are in life, maybe they're in their 50s, and they're set in their ways, and they have no desire to change at all, and so they've been living a dumb life for 50-plus years.

Andrew Doyle 54:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:10 You can't all of a sudden say, "Hey, Mark, I want you to be logical and introspective-

Andrew Doyle 54:14 Sure

Joe Rogan 54:14 ... and think about this thing and analyze it, and for what it really is. Instead of holding on to your ideological beliefs that you've kind of locked yourself into and you identify with, and any attacks on those is an attack on you personally, I want you to just, let's look at the facts." This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, there's a lot of pressure when it comes to dating, especially in February, but you're putting too much on yourself and on your partner. There's no such thing as a perfect relationship, whether you're on a first date or have been together for years. It's completely normal to go through rough patches, and what matters is how you deal with them, and therapy can be a huge help during any stage of your dating life. You can figure out what you want in a partner or get perspective for a growing problem in your relationship. The point is, you don't have to come up with a solution by yourself. Now, finding the right therapist can be tricky, but that's where BetterHelp comes in. They have an industry-leading match fulfillment rate, and they do a lot of the work finding the right therapist for you. Really, all you have to do is fill out a questionnaire and sit back and wait.... tackle your relationship goals this month with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That's betterH-E-L-P.com/jre.

Andrew Doyle 55:32 But you saying that sounds very persuasive to me.

Joe Rogan 55:34 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 55:34 Like, the way you put that. Like, if I were that guy, I'd be like, "Oh, I'll listen to Joe now."

Joe Rogan 55:38 No, fucking weirdo.

Andrew Doyle 55:39 No. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 55:40 Fucking liberals, bullshit. You're fucking... You're just a fucking- Yeah, they, they'll come up with-

Andrew Doyle 55:45 Yeah

Joe Rogan 55:45 ... some sort of a reason why you're a f-

Andrew Doyle 55:45 King Charles III is a goat.

Joe Rogan 55:47 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 55:47 Like, what-

Joe Rogan 55:48 You're a controlled opposition or you're a useful idiot, or-

Andrew Doyle 55:52 Yeah

Joe Rogan 55:52 ... they'll la- put a label on you.

Andrew Doyle 55:54 I've been called... I've been told I've, I get dark money.

Joe Rogan 55:56 Oh!

Andrew Doyle 55:57 I, uh, I-

Joe Rogan 55:57 How do you get any of that?

Andrew Doyle 55:58 Well, I love it.

Joe Rogan 55:59 That's a good question.

Andrew Doyle 55:59 I want it. I want the dark money.

Joe Rogan 56:00 Dark-

Andrew Doyle 56:00 It's so dark, I haven't seen any of it.

Joe Rogan 56:02 Dark money.

Andrew Doyle 56:02 That's how dark it is. But I-

Joe Rogan 56:03 What's dark money?

Andrew Doyle 56:04 I think it's when it's, like, um, some rich, uh, ideologue who's sort of slipping you money to say the thing. You know what it is? It's that thing of, I don't believe that you disagree with me. I'm too narcissistic to believe that you disagree with me.

Joe Rogan 56:13 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 56:13 You must be being paid-

Joe Rogan 56:15 Right

Andrew Doyle 56:15 ... uh, to have these opinions.

Joe Rogan 56:15 You're paid off, bro.

Andrew Doyle 56:16 You're paid off.

Joe Rogan 56:17 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 56:17 Trust me, I would love that. If anyone's out there who wants to pay me off, I'll be a mouthpiece. I'm, you know, the, but it's-

Joe Rogan 56:22 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 56:23 I haven't had that opportunity.

Joe Rogan 56:25 What's your price? [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 56:25 It's pretty low. I'm a bit-

Joe Rogan 56:27 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 56:27 ... I'm a, I'm a bit of a whore, if, if, uh, [laughing] truth be told. I've got a mortgage. Come on.

Joe Rogan 56:32 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 56:32 I will say any crazy shit if you want me to. Look-

Joe Rogan 56:34 Well, there's certainly a lot of people that fall into that category, too.

Andrew Doyle 56:37 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 56:37 So people do get nervous about it.

Andrew Doyle 56:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:39 I mean, obviously, you're joking, but there's a lot of people that will change their opinion-

Andrew Doyle 56:43 Oh, sure

Joe Rogan 56:43 ... if money comes their way.

Andrew Doyle 56:44 But I, I like to a- assume people mean what they say, and my logic behind that is even when they don't, you can still dismantle the argument, even if it's authentic or not. You know, even if it's authentically believed.

Joe Rogan 56:56 Sure.

Andrew Doyle 56:56 So, so that, that... I think that's just the best way to go about it.

Joe Rogan 56:59 The best way-

Andrew Doyle 57:00 Yeah

Joe Rogan 57:00 ... is debate.

Andrew Doyle 57:00 Debate.

Joe Rogan 57:00 That's the best way, or at least conversation.

Andrew Doyle 57:04 But that's what we've lost lately.

Joe Rogan 57:05 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 57:05 So I think, I think that hits on it, actually, because I did-

Joe Rogan 57:07 I don't, I say debate, but I'm, I'm... That sounds formal.

Andrew Doyle 57:09 No, I know what you mean. You mean-

Joe Rogan 57:10 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 57:11 ... the, the, uh, so recently... Can I, can I give you an example of that? My, I, um, [lips smack] so I went to, uh, UC Berkeley, the university UC Berkeley in California.

Joe Rogan 57:21 They let you leave?

Andrew Doyle 57:22 Well, almost not, right?

Joe Rogan 57:23 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 57:23 So I... What had happened was, you know, Charlie Kirk's tour was planned to go all the way through, and this was the last date, the Berkeley date. And after his assassination-

Joe Rogan 57:33 Oh

Andrew Doyle 57:33 ... various people went and did the shows because they said, because Turning Point rightly said, "We're not gonna give an assassin the veto of our tour. We finish the tour." And, uh, Rob Schneider, who I've been working with in Arizona, I've come over here to work with him-

Joe Rogan 57:46 The comedian?

Andrew Doyle 57:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:47 Okay.

Andrew Doyle 57:47 So, so I've been... This is how I escaped from the UK, I should say. [laughing] Like, so me and Graham Linehan, who you've had on your show-

Joe Rogan 57:53 Yes

Andrew Doyle 57:53 ... the comedy writer.

Joe Rogan 57:54 I love Graham.

Andrew Doyle 57:54 My comedy, uh, writing partner and friend, Martin Gourlay, the three of us, we, uh, decided that things were so bad in the UK, uh, we'd rather write and do creative stuff in America. Rob Schneider, who I'd met many years ago, he said, "Come on over. We'll set up a production company." We've been working in Arizona on all these various projects. It's so liberating, and also, it's the middle of the desert, so I fucking love the heat [chuckles] and, you know, you go from England to that, it's kind of-

Joe Rogan 58:17 Right

Andrew Doyle 58:17 ... it's kind of exciting.

Joe Rogan 58:18 Nice contrast.

Andrew Doyle 58:19 So, so we've been able to, you know, we... And look, I don't wanna do down the UK or say... But what I will just say is the creative industries there are pretty stagnant. They're not like here. There's so many more ways to-

Joe Rogan 58:31 How can you be free?

Andrew Doyle 58:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:32 How can you... If you are worried about going to jail for a meme-

Andrew Doyle 58:36 Well, Graham got arrested-

Joe Rogan 58:37 ... how can you be free?

Andrew Doyle 58:37 ... at the airport-

Joe Rogan 58:38 I know, I know

Andrew Doyle 58:39 ... by five armed officers.

Joe Rogan 58:40 Right after he left this podcast.

Andrew Doyle 58:42 Was that it?

Joe Rogan 58:42 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 58:43 And it was-

Joe Rogan 58:44 He came over, did this podcast, went back to visit his family, and got arrested.

Andrew Doyle 58:49 And you know what? He-

Joe Rogan 58:49 Shortly after he did the podcast.

Andrew Doyle 58:51 So when people say to me, "That's not a real problem," that... I mean, Graham had done three tweets. One of them was just a- they were all joke tweets, by the way.

Joe Rogan 59:00 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 59:00 They were all jokes, and one of them was just... It was something like: "Ladies, if a guy's in your changing room or in your bathroom, scream, make a fuss, call the police. If all else fails, kick him in the balls." And it's obviously a, a wry way of saying, "Look, the guy's got genitals. The guy's a..."

Joe Rogan 59:13 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 59:14 That was why he got arrested. He- on the night he got arrested, he was texting me. He said, "I've just been arrested. I've been taken to the hospital 'cause my blood pressure is so high." The police took him to the hospital-

Joe Rogan 59:23 Mm

Andrew Doyle 59:23 ... 'cause they'd raised... 'Cause, and, and you, and you say there's no problem in the UK with creativity. He's one of our best comedy writers. He's the most beloved comedy writer.

Joe Rogan 59:32 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 59:32 He hasn't been able to work in TV for six years, right? Uh, the, like, he's won all the awards-

Joe Rogan 59:37 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 59:37 ... going. And so we've just kind of-

Joe Rogan 59:39 How can you be creative in that environment?

Andrew Doyle 59:41 You can't.

Joe Rogan 59:41 You can't.

Andrew Doyle 59:42 And so we just figured, let's, let's get on a raft [chuckles] and go to America.

Joe Rogan 59:45 Especially someone like you. So if, if people don't know, I should probably tell everybody.

Andrew Doyle 59:49 Okay.

Joe Rogan 59:49 You are Tatiana McGrath.

Andrew Doyle 59:51 So yeah, and-

Joe Rogan 59:52 Well, here's what's funny about that.

Andrew Doyle 59:53 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 59:54 Your satirical character, who you created many, many years ago... When did you create her?

Andrew Doyle 59:59 2018.

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 Okay. When you created her, I had you on the podcast shortly after. We, we laughed about it. I have seen her quote tweeted with people agreeing with her.

Andrew Doyle 1:00:11 Yeah. Yeah, even now.

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 Yeah, all the time.

Andrew Doyle 1:00:14 So, so with, it's, it's, so I... Yeah, I, and if people don't know, it's a character called Tatiana McGrath. She's a woke, just, so social justice warrior, right?

Joe Rogan 1:00:22 It's so good. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:00:23 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:00:23 It's fucking great.

Andrew Doyle 1:00:25 But-

Joe Rogan 1:00:25 It's one of my favorite follows.

Andrew Doyle 1:00:27 But, you know, I, I, I don't do it as often as I used to. You know, I used to do it all the time, but then I wrote two books as her. I did a live show as her.

Joe Rogan 1:00:34 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:00:35 By the way, when we- when I did a, a live show, we were booked in for a week in the West End in London, and then the head of the theater found out and scotched it.

Joe Rogan 1:00:42 Oh.

Andrew Doyle 1:00:42 And so, and, and actually said, "Oh, well, I didn't know about this." And the contracts were all signed. Absolutely crazy. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Um, but we did the shows.

Joe Rogan 1:00:49 It does matter.

Andrew Doyle 1:00:49 Well, it does matter, I suppose. Um, but the point is that, you know, so I, I did this character-

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 You can't have satire at your theater? My God.

Andrew Doyle 1:00:57 Well, the theater industry in the UK is even worse than comedy if you wanna go there.

Joe Rogan 1:01:00 Oh. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:01:01 It's really, really bad.

Joe Rogan 1:01:02 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:01:02 But, um, like, uh, I've been in t- I, in two different theaters in London-

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 Oh, wow

Andrew Doyle 1:01:07 ... I've been, had the same experience of standing at the bar with a woman complaining because there's men, uh, pissing in her toilet, and they're doing nothing about it. Because all the theaters in London have made it all gender-neutral, they've gone completely-

Joe Rogan 1:01:17 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:01:17 ... completely hardcore woke. Anyway, that's not the point. But with, with Tatiana, what, what I find so surprising is-... every now and then, if something annoys me, I'll tweet, or, or, or if I think of something, I'll do so. I don't do it anywhere near as often as I used to. But even now, uh, I did a tweet about, you know, when all the people in London were marching, uh, about the peace deal in the Middle East?

Joe Rogan 1:01:36 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Doyle 1:01:37 And I did a tweet as her saying, "I've been marching all day. You know, I want a, I want a peace deal that was not arranged by Donald Trump. We're never gonna give up this fight," right? And Ted Cruz retweeted it, saying, "Can this be real?"

Joe Rogan 1:01:48 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:01:49 So e- even, even now, there, there-

Joe Rogan 1:01:52 These fucking boomers! [laughing]

1:01:54 He's not even a boomer. He's not even a boomer. I think he's younger than me. How old is Ted Cruz? I think he's younger than me, which is hilarious.

Andrew Doyle 1:02:00 I had, I had the same with... I did one about-

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 How does he not know? Does he have no friends?

1:02:03 How old is fucking Ted Cruz?

1:02:04 35.

1:02:05 Okay.

Andrew Doyle 1:02:06 No, I'm-

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 That's crazy. So that dude's three years younger than me-

1:02:08 [laughing]

1:02:09 ... and he doesn't, he doesn't know satire?

Andrew Doyle 1:02:12 The anger I got from... I did one the other day, or recently, about the Iran protests.

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 When did this-

Andrew Doyle 1:02:16 It's essential.

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 Can I just stop you?

Andrew Doyle 1:02:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 I wanna get into this.

Andrew Doyle 1:02:18 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 When did he tweet about this?

1:02:21 Like, a year ago.

1:02:21 That's hilarious! [slams]

Andrew Doyle 1:02:23 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:24 You're... That account-

1:02:25 Here it is, uh.

Andrew Doyle 1:02:25 There it is. There it is.

Joe Rogan 1:02:26 How, how many follows does Ted have?

Andrew Doyle 1:02:28 Okay, so this- oh, sorry, this is-

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 This is possibly real.

1:02:31 No. Well, obviously it's not.

Andrew Doyle 1:02:32 So this was, this was actually after Trump's election. So she said, "I just fired my immigrant housekeeper, because even though I'd educated her about the evils of Donald Trump, she still voted for him. There's no place for racism in my house."

Joe Rogan 1:02:43 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:02:44 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 Click on your account. I wanna see how many followers you have. Okay, 733,000. That's a famous account. Like, uh, it's so [laughing] ... Radical intersectionalist poet, non-white. Obviously white. Ecosexual. Hilarious. Pronouns: variable. "Selfless and brave. Buy my books."

Andrew Doyle 1:03:04 You'd think it was obvious, wouldn't you?

Joe Rogan 1:03:05 [laughing] Obvious!

Andrew Doyle 1:03:06 You'd think.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 Well, I mean, maybe he's busy. Maybe he's busy, and someone sent him that, and he just doesn't know and... But it's very funny. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:03:15 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 It's very funny.

Andrew Doyle 1:03:16 I feel slightly bad about, about those sort of thing. But then on the other hand-

Joe Rogan 1:03:19 No, no, no, no, no, no

Andrew Doyle 1:03:19 ... it does, it does sort of prove the point-

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:03:21 ... that the, that the stuff they're really saying can get as c- can get as close to the, the-

Joe Rogan 1:03:25 Oh, that's very close to real.

Andrew Doyle 1:03:27 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:27 It's very close to real.

Andrew Doyle 1:03:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 And this- it's, it's shifted radically since 2018.

Andrew Doyle 1:03:32 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:32 I mean, in the eight years since you created her, she has become, like, more real.

Andrew Doyle 1:03:38 Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 It's like, when... AI's gonna turn her into a real person.

Andrew Doyle 1:03:41 Yeah. Like, oh, oh, maybe.

Joe Rogan 1:03:43 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:03:43 I mean, I hadn't even thought of that.

Joe Rogan 1:03:43 She's gonna be a real person.

Andrew Doyle 1:03:45 Well, she-

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 She's gonna be a real dangerous Greta Thunberg-type character.

Andrew Doyle 1:03:48 But don't you worry about that? I mean, like, AI... Oh, a good example of that: I was, uh, just- I use AI mostly as a search engine. 'Cause what's great about it is you can say, "Oh, I read an article, like, 10 years ago that said something like this-

Joe Rogan 1:03:58 Yes

Andrew Doyle 1:03:59 ... and it will find it, and you'd never find that on Google.

Joe Rogan 1:04:01 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:04:01 And I was trying to find this article. It was for my book, actually. There was a, there was a, a case in the UK where a, uh, a guy had raped a 13-year-old girl, but because he was, um, he was Muslim, and he'd gone to a madrassa, and the judge let him off jail time and said, "You were very sexually naive. You didn't understand." Uh, the guy was saying, "Oh, I, I thought women were nothing and like a lollipop you dropped on the floor," and the judge let him off jail time. And I thought, "This is quite extreme."

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 Mm.

Andrew Doyle 1:04:24 And I could- I found it. It came up on ChatGPT, and then it deleted. And I said, "Um, oh, uh, I think you just deleted the information for me. It's in the public domain. Why did you do that?" It said, "Oh, uh, you know, it's fine. It might violate my terms of service." And I said, "Well, how could it? This is an article that's in the public domain." So it gave me the information again, deleted it again. I said, "You keep deleting this, stop it." It said, "I definitely won't delete it," then it did the same again. So what it's doing is it's saying, "Because this is a news story that could be deemed anti-immigrant, or this is a news story that is politically sensitive, I'm not gonna let you see it." So-

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 Was this in America, you were doing this?

Andrew Doyle 1:04:57 UK.

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 Oh.

Andrew Doyle 1:04:59 Is that-

Joe Rogan 1:04:59 I wonder if you could do it in America. Let's find out. Let's try... Well, let's try Perplexity. Put that into Perplexity, see if... I, I doubt that Perplexity would-

1:05:06 I have to find the article he was using, and then I don't know what article he looked up.

1:05:09 Well, why don't you just ask the question that he asked?

1:05:11 I don't know. It was 10 years ago.

Andrew Doyle 1:05:13 So it's a, it's, it's a story about, uh, a-

Joe Rogan 1:05:15 Yeah, this is gonna take a minute.

Andrew Doyle 1:05:16 That will take [laughing] that take a while to-

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 Will it?

Andrew Doyle 1:05:18 It-

Joe Rogan 1:05:18 How, uh... I mean-

1:05:19 Maybe he didn't do it 10 years ago, he did it recently.

Andrew Doyle 1:05:22 No, no, it was a story-

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 I think he found the-

Andrew Doyle 1:05:23 It's a story from years ago

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 ... he was looking for something from the past.

1:05:24 Right, but you found it with ChatGPT, which is obviously recently.

Andrew Doyle 1:05:27 I found, I found a Daily Mail article about it, so it's on public domain, it's there, but it just, it just, it didn't want me to find the fact that it had decided wasn't good for me to find.

Joe Rogan 1:05:37 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:05:37 So-

Joe Rogan 1:05:37 But it showed it to you, and then it pulled it back, which is crazy.

Andrew Doyle 1:05:40 It showed it-

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 Like, how does it not know?

Andrew Doyle 1:05:41 It showed it and deleted it.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 That's not-

Andrew Doyle 1:05:43 It, it showed it and deleted it four or five times, and I re- realized, "I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get this information." But then I just-

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 So when it showed it, how long did it show it for?

Andrew Doyle 1:05:50 Like, about five seconds. You'd see the text appearing, and then it deletes. But I'd seen enough to find it then on Google, so I was able to find it and quote it in my book, so it's there.

Joe Rogan 1:05:59 Whoa!

Andrew Doyle 1:06:00 But it made me think. It's like that thing about when people were asking Alexa, you know, "Do white lives matter?"

Joe Rogan 1:06:06 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:06:06 Or, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:06:06 Right, right, right.

Andrew Doyle 1:06:07 And, and it was coming up with this kind of very, uh, ideological... But, and, and you do wonder-

Joe Rogan 1:06:11 Wow

Andrew Doyle 1:06:12 ... with, with AI and with the computers, you know, if, if they are created by people who have that bias. I know Grok is very different.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:06:18 But like, um, for instance, I mean, this is a crazy example. ChatGPT is like an old-school mom that want- that wants to make sure that you, you're protected, right? I was writing... This sounds really wanky, I'm sorry, but I was writing about the Roman historian Suetonius, and there's a passage in Suetonius where he talks about the Emperor Tiberius, and it's very sexually explicit. But I was quoting it for an article, so I wanted to know what it said, and ChatGPT said, "I can't translate the Latin for you, because this is too sexually, uh, un, uh, uh, you know, problematic." I went on to Grok, and it did it straight away. Because Grok isn't saying that you are, are, are too delicate-

Joe Rogan 1:06:53 Right

Andrew Doyle 1:06:53 ... to read this stuff. And what's really funny about that is, the old jewel translations of the old Roman and Greek texts, they're called Loeb editions. You get them from 1900. They kept every- they translated everything except for the rude bits, which they kept in Latin.

Joe Rogan 1:07:07 Mm.

Andrew Doyle 1:07:07 So ChatGPT is like the old, you know, pa- patronizing scholars of a- of old, who said, "This is just for the le- learned people. You can't learn this stuff. You can't know-

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 Well, wasn't the worst, uh, uh, the first iteration of Google Gemini, that was the worst cases?

Andrew Doyle 1:07:22 That turned Nazi soldiers into Black people. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:07:26 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:07:27 ... [laughs] I don't know how that's a positive message.

Joe Rogan 1:07:28 [laughs] They said-

Andrew Doyle 1:07:29 They-

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 ... showed us photos of German soldiers from World War II, and it was all interracial.

Andrew Doyle 1:07:35 Yeah, and Vikings.

Joe Rogan 1:07:36 Yes, let's see here. [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 1:07:37 You could... I mean, I don't know if you've been to Scandinavia, diversity, not their big thing, or certainly wasn't then.

Joe Rogan 1:07:43 Oh. [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 1:07:43 Like-

Joe Rogan 1:07:44 It's, it's just so silly

Andrew Doyle 1:07:44 ... but you can't say that about the Vi- also, the Vikings came and marauded, and raped, and set fire to villages, but at least they were diverse. Hey, you know, at least they had a broad range of ethnicities, right?

Joe Rogan 1:07:53 But, I mean, it- we're nearing a time in America where white people are not the majority anymore. So at what point in time does that stop, and we just call people what they are, just people?

Andrew Doyle 1:08:04 But doesn't it bother you a bit that... The, the, the thing about that kind of thing is this, as I said, this i- obsession with group identity, which is so of our time-

Joe Rogan 1:08:13 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:08:13 ... what it now actually means is re- the revision of history.

Joe Rogan 1:08:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Doyle 1:08:16 If you're going to revise history and say, "Oh, actually..." You know, you've seen all these sort of period dramas set in England. There was a Black Anne Boleyn, as though Henry VIII would have married a Black woman. No, he wouldn't. Uh, you know, the-

Joe Rogan 1:08:26 What if she was hot? [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 1:08:28 She was a very attractive woman. Hey, I, I'm not mocking her or knocking her.

Joe Rogan 1:08:31 But back then-

Andrew Doyle 1:08:32 What I'm saying is, you can do anything with color-blind cast. Color-blind casting has never really particularly bothered me, but it's when you are in a... If you're playing hyperrealism-

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:08:40 ... if you're playing verisimilitude, you want people to buy into the reality of it, and you're suddenly populating Edwardian England or pre-Edwardian England as an ethnically diverse place, which it wasn't. I'm not saying Black people weren't there, but they were very, very, a, a very small minority.

Joe Rogan 1:08:53 Isn't that a problem in the new Odyssey?

Andrew Doyle 1:08:55 Uh, Helen of Troy is Black. Uh, well, I say that, I just saw it online, so I might be being tricked by someone making something up. Uh, you know, I caveat that. I think Helen of Troy is Black in the new Odyssey.

Joe Rogan 1:09:06 Well, let's find out.

Andrew Doyle 1:09:07 Um, can we check that one? G- but you-

Joe Rogan 1:09:11 Wow.

Andrew Doyle 1:09:11 All right, if it's true, I'll tell you why I think that's ridiculous, right?

Joe Rogan 1:09:14 Well, how, how far do we have to swing the pendulum until Roots is redone with white people? [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 1:09:19 [laughs] Can you imagine? Or an all-Black Schindler's List.

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 Right. Right, right.

Andrew Doyle 1:09:23 Can you imagine? That was Helen of Troy.

Joe Rogan 1:09:25 Helen of Troy to be portrayed by a Black actress in new Odyssey movie.

Andrew Doyle 1:09:28 And look, I'm sure she's very talented. I'm not knocking her, but the thing about the Greek... The thing about Helen of Troy, who probably didn't exist, I mean, even the Greeks knew she probably didn't even exist. She's a myth. She's a- she's the epitome of Greek beauty. She's like the, uh... She, she's, she's described all the time in the ancient texts as fair and blonde, and, and, uh, they're ha- they're, they're reaching for an ideal of beauty. That's why they went to war, because of this woman. So they wouldn't choose what they used to call an Ethiop. The Greeks had a word for it, the Black African people. They wouldn't choose a, an icon of cultural beauty from a different culture. They wouldn't have done that, you know? Uh, it's all very well saying Greeks and Mediterranean people and Greek, you know, would have been, wouldn't-

Joe Rogan 1:10:04 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:10:04 ... have been pure white. But Helen of a Troy is a very specific... And it's actually quite important to the, to the plot. And, and, and again, if you're doing a... Look, for instance, when they did the all-Black Wizard of Oz, The Wiz, I imagine that in the late '60s would have been quite radical, and fun, and wow, I can't believe they did that. That's brilliant. But doing it now, it's really boring because everyone is doing it. It's so banal. It's basically saying, "Group identity is everything, and you, you people can't be racist, and so therefore, we're going to do this."

Joe Rogan 1:10:32 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:10:32 But it sometimes throws you out of the... Uh, actually, I'll tell you the worst example. Did you ever see Darkest Hour, the Winston Churchill film?

Joe Rogan 1:10:38 No.

Andrew Doyle 1:10:39 So you know, obviously, he took on Parliament. He said, "We're not going to appease Hitler." Um, there's a scene in the film, Gary Oldman plays him. He goes down into the Tube, the Underground, and he's wrestling with his conscience, and there's loads of Black people on the Tube. There's white people, too, but there's loads of Black people, and they, the public convince him, "No, you, you need to stand up for Hitler." [chuckles] Now, we know that Churchill wasn't... was a bit of a racist, [laughs] didn't really like the, the, you know, fine. He was of his time. I'm not saying anything more than that. He was of his time, but that, it was so unreal. It was so unreal. It was so- it was almost like the filmmakers were, were saying, "Racism's never been a problem in the UK." Well, actually, it has.

Joe Rogan 1:11:13 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:11:13 Like, and I kind of think this is... I, I kind of think this is, although it's ostensibly progressive, I think it does the reverse. I think it says, "We never had a problem with race. We were all wonderful, kumbaya." No, we weren't, and actually, the abolitionists, the, the Thomas Henry Huxleys of the world, the people who had to fight aga- for racial equality and parity, they had something to fight against. Misrepresenting-

Joe Rogan 1:11:35 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:11:35 ... stuff in the arts. And then beyond... I'm sorry I'm ranting now, because it really bothers me. But beyond that, it throws you out of it in a way that you suddenly think, "I'm no longer watching a film. I'm watching a sermon." Oh, so this happened to me last week. Have you seen the Netflix series Ripley, about the Talented Mr. Ripley?

Joe Rogan 1:11:53 No, I have not.

Andrew Doyle 1:11:54 Right. Now, you remember there used to be that film with Matt Damon-

Joe Rogan 1:11:57 Mm-hmm

Andrew Doyle 1:11:57 ... years ago. It's the same story, same novel, an old Patricia Highsmith novel. One of the main male characters in that TV s- it's a brilliant se- like, Andrew Scott is in it. Performances are brilliant. They play it hyperrealistically. It's all black and white. It looks beautiful. On the Amalfi Coast, it's wonderful. Everything's working brilliantly, and I was thinking, "This is great. I'm not being preached at. This is great." Then a major male character turns up, played by a woman who calls herself non-binary.

Joe Rogan 1:12:21 [snorts] [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 1:12:22 And, and not only are we meant to believe that that's a man-

Joe Rogan 1:12:26 [exhales]

Andrew Doyle 1:12:27 ... the characters don't notice that it's a woman in a man's clo- in man's clothing.

Joe Rogan 1:12:30 Blah. [laughs]

Andrew Doyle 1:12:31 So we're meant to believe that these, these characters don't even cl- like, not one per- Ripley doesn't say, "Why is, why is she wearing a, why is she wearing a suit?" This is set in the '60s, by the way. So I think if they wanted to change the novel and create a kind of, you know, like one of those butch dykes of the day who used to go for sort of, sort of like, um-

Joe Rogan 1:12:48 Mm-hmm

Andrew Doyle 1:12:49 ... uh, or a j-

Joe Rogan 1:12:49 Dressed like Ellen.

Andrew Doyle 1:12:50 Yeah, or yeah, or the androgynous type.

Joe Rogan 1:12:52 Uh-huh.

Andrew Doyle 1:12:52 Like, those, those people have always existed. Why not change the character to make it a female character who, who, who likes the, likes looking like a man? Why not do that? Why tell us, "You, no, this is a man. You have to believe it's a man"? [laughs] Do you see what I mean?

Joe Rogan 1:13:06 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 1:13:06 Like, it throws you out of the-

Joe Rogan 1:13:07 It's crazy.

Andrew Doyle 1:13:08 I no longer believe in this. I had to stop watching it because-

Joe Rogan 1:13:11 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:13:11 ... I no longer believed in it. And-

Joe Rogan 1:13:13 Well, I think the problem, the real problem with trying to shove that down people's throats is it creates the opposite reaction.

Andrew Doyle 1:13:19 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 1:13:20 It, it, it creates homophobia, transphobia, and racism. Because, like, it doesn't create it, but it makes them feel like they have a point.

Andrew Doyle 1:13:28 ... Well, you've seen recently that the polls regarding gay rights in the US seem to be going down, tumbling, support for gay rights-

Joe Rogan 1:13:36 Brilliant.

Andrew Doyle 1:13:36 Support for gay marriage. We've had, I think, a number of states trying to overturn the, the gay marriage, uh, legislation, and the reason for all of that, I think, is because ga- being gay has been tied to this LGBTQIA identity-obsessed movement that has also involved, uh, the medicalization of kids, sterilization of kids, twerking in front of children-

Joe Rogan 1:13:57 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:13:57 ... all of that stuff, and now people are saying, "This is because you gave us gay marriage. This is because you let the gays marry, and because of that-

Joe Rogan 1:14:03 Mm

Andrew Doyle 1:14:03 ... you've allowed all this other stuff. You've opened this box, and everything else has k- has tumbled out," and that's not true. That's not true because the fundamental point about the, uh, about the belief in gender identity is it is fundamentally anti-gay as a principle.

Joe Rogan 1:14:17 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:14:17 Right? Because what it says is, cl- you know, I know I'm telling you something you already know, but, like, gay-

Joe Rogan 1:14:21 It's important

Andrew Doyle 1:14:22 ... gay rights was predicated on the idea that there's a minority of people in every society who are attracted innately to their own biological sex. If you say biological sex doesn't matter, and actually, you've, you've, you're attracted to a s- a kind of gendered soul, you're attracted to an essence, you're attracted to how someone identifies, well, firstly, you don't know gay people if you think that's the case. They're not, they're not attracted to how you see yourself.

Joe Rogan 1:14:42 Right. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:14:42 [chuckles] They're, they, they, they know... Gay men, I don't wanna be crude, know what a penis is, right?

Joe Rogan 1:14:47 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:14:47 And, and, and, uh, they know how to sniff one out.

Joe Rogan 1:14:49 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:14:49 Now, I, and I think this idea, this idea-

Joe Rogan 1:14:53 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:14:53 ... that, that they're attracted to the way that you perceive yourself-

Joe Rogan 1:14:55 Nonsense

Andrew Doyle 1:14:56 ... and not only that, then you get, you know, like in Australia at the moment, lesbians are not allowed to gather legally if there's a man who says he's a lesbian and wants to join them. That is against the law in Australia now, so you, you can't do that.

Joe Rogan 1:15:08 Wait, wait a minute. What do you mean?

Andrew Doyle 1:15:09 So, uh, the Australian Human Rights Commission ruled that if you are, if you have an all-female event, right, so like a lesbian gathering maybe-

Joe Rogan 1:15:15 Mm

Andrew Doyle 1:15:15 ... something like that, um, you have to include men who identify as women.

Joe Rogan 1:15:19 Oh, God!

Andrew Doyle 1:15:20 Because otherwise you are discriminating.

Joe Rogan 1:15:22 Argh!

Andrew Doyle 1:15:23 Um, there was a woman who I interviewed on a sh- I had a show in the UK on GB News up until recently, and I interviewed this woman called Sal Grover, and she's an Australian woman, used to write for Hollywood, I think. Um, she created an, a woman's app, a women's only app, and this was in the wake of Me Too, you know, so there's all that going on, and she wanted to create a space for women, and a guy called Roxanne Tickle, right? They always have these kind of, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:15:46 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:15:46 ... stripper names, don't they?

Joe Rogan 1:15:46 Is that a real name?

Andrew Doyle 1:15:47 Roxanne Tickle-

Joe Rogan 1:15:48 [exhales]

Andrew Doyle 1:15:49 ... wanted to get on the app, which was called Giggle. So by the way, this court case is called Giggle versus Tickle.

Joe Rogan 1:15:53 Oh-

Andrew Doyle 1:15:53 I'm not kidding.

Joe Rogan 1:15:54 Boy. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:15:55 And [chuckles] he said, I... He got on the app.

Joe Rogan 1:15:58 Oh!

Andrew Doyle 1:15:58 She kicked him off 'cause it's a, it's a bloke in address, and, um, he sued and won.

Joe Rogan 1:16:04 Oh.

Andrew Doyle 1:16:04 And in the court case, the judge actually said, uh, "Sex is changeable."

Joe Rogan 1:16:09 Oh.

Andrew Doyle 1:16:09 Well, it's not, no matter what a, a, a, a, a guy in a wig says. Um, but she's now appealing and going through all the, all th- all this stuff-

Joe Rogan 1:16:17 Damn

Andrew Doyle 1:16:17 ... just because-

Joe Rogan 1:16:18 Makes her life hell, and then it discourages anybody else in the future from ever contesting anything like that.

Andrew Doyle 1:16:23 And, and, you know, not only that, I mean, we've just had the other day... Was it yesterday, um, did you see the, uh, the girl who was, uh, used to identify as trans, a, a girl called Fox Varian, has just won 2 million in a lawsuit?

Joe Rogan 1:16:35 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 1:16:35 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:16:35 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 1:16:36 That's big because-

Joe Rogan 1:16:37 She was 16 years old, and they chopped her breasts off-

Andrew Doyle 1:16:40 Right

Joe Rogan 1:16:40 ... which is fucking horrifying.

Andrew Doyle 1:16:42 It's the tip of the iceberg, though.

Joe Rogan 1:16:43 Especially if you, you have children, you, you realize, like, they change their, the way they think about things year to year. They... And if you... A k- children are so malleable.

Andrew Doyle 1:16:54 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:16:55 Uh, y- it's like one of the delicate dances of being a parent is that you have to love them, but you don't wanna steer them in any direction.

Andrew Doyle 1:17:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:05 You want to let them be their own person.

Andrew Doyle 1:17:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:17:08 And, you know, it's like you... I tried to expose my children to a bunch of different things and find out what they enjoy, and what... If you do that, you find out that they're all different.

Andrew Doyle 1:17:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:18 They all like different stuff. They just gravitate towards different things, and if you are a domineering, overbearing, mentally ill parent, you can convince your child almost anything. Almost anything.

Andrew Doyle 1:17:33 And-

Joe Rogan 1:17:33 I mean, this is how you get suicide bombers. This is-

Andrew Doyle 1:17:35 Yeah. Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:17:36 ... this is what it is, 'cause they're children. This is why you don't get 55-year-old union guys who become suicide bombers. They're like, "What?"

Andrew Doyle 1:17:43 And of course, you know, some-

Joe Rogan 1:17:44 "I get 72 virgins?"

Andrew Doyle 1:17:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:46 "What?"

Andrew Doyle 1:17:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:46 Like, it's not gonna work.

Andrew Doyle 1:17:48 But those-

Joe Rogan 1:17:48 But you can get young, impressionable children, and you can convince them of almost anything, like convincing them that they're actually a woman in a man's body, "And don't you wanna be a woman? And let's get you on hormone blockers." "Okay, Mom."

Andrew Doyle 1:18:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:00 And then all of a sudden, you're ruining this child's life.

Andrew Doyle 1:18:03 But also, I mean, there will be kids who are struggling with the, how they see themselves in the world. There's girls in particular who, you know, they're developing into women, and they don't like the sexual attention they're getting. They'd love to identify-

Joe Rogan 1:18:13 This is Abigail Shrier's book.

Andrew Doyle 1:18:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:18:15 You know-

Andrew Doyle 1:18:15 So what-

Joe Rogan 1:18:15 Especially autistic girls.

Andrew Doyle 1:18:17 So what, what... Well, that's another point.

Joe Rogan 1:18:18 Yeah. [clears throat]

Andrew Doyle 1:18:18 So this is the other, this is the other reason why I think the movement is essentially anti-gay because you know the Tavistock Pediatric, Pediatric Clinic in London, which was an NHS gender clinic, which has been closed as a result of the Cass Review, this report-

Joe Rogan 1:18:32 Yes

Andrew Doyle 1:18:33 ... into pediatric gender care. They found, uh, a, um... There's a book by Hannah Barnes called Time to Think, which found that between 80 and 90% of all adolescents referred to that clinic were same-sex attracted, so they were either gay or lesbian or bisexual.

Joe Rogan 1:18:46 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:18:46 Now, that means you've effectively got gay conversion therapy going on, on the n- on the NHS.

Joe Rogan 1:18:50 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:18:51 And so, th- you know, I had... Uh, you know, I'm friends with, um, a couple of lesbians who run the LGB Alliance in London. They have an annual conference for gay rights, and they're talking about gay rights, you know? These young non, non-binary identified people broke in, unleashed, uh, locusts and, um, uh, crickets and insects, a plague of fucking locusts into a gay rights conference.

Joe Rogan 1:19:12 [chuckles]

Andrew Doyle 1:19:13 Isn't that the sort of thing neo-Nazis used to do?

Joe Rogan 1:19:14 Right, it's insane.

Andrew Doyle 1:19:15 Right? So, [clears throat] I, I mean, I, I, you know, I w- I, I think you need to have sympathy with, with, with people and whatever they're going through, but don't tell a child... If a child tells you, "I think I'm in the wrong body," don't say yes. Say, "That's not possible. Human beings can't change sex, but let's explore psychotherapeutically-

Joe Rogan 1:19:31 Well, let's-

Andrew Doyle 1:19:31 ... what needs to happen," right?

Joe Rogan 1:19:32 Let's look at Los Angeles, which is, in my opinion, one of the most mentally ill spots in this country. It's a very weird place.

Andrew Doyle 1:19:39 That's why you left.

Joe Rogan 1:19:40 ... Well, I mean, I left for a bunch of reasons. Uh, mostly I really left 'cause they were telling us we can't do comedy.

Andrew Doyle 1:19:46 Oh, yeah. Well, that'll do it, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:47 They, they closed down the comedy clubs, and Texas was open. So the primary reason, and also restaurants and every- I j- I just knew where it was going. But the point is, like, Los Angeles is a very mentally ill place. Like, uh, th- if you just looked at, like, the just the sheer numbers of people that are medicated-

Andrew Doyle 1:20:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:20:05 ... and fucked up. Like, if, if that's the place that's dictating the tone for the rest of the world-

Andrew Doyle 1:20:10 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:20:10 ... that's dangerous. 'Cause these are a lot of people that just desperately want attention. They desperately wanna get accepted. They have to go through the audition process, so they have to change who they are to talk to the producers, to try to form themselves into something to be s- accepted. There's a disproportionate amount of trans kids that are involved in Hollywood families.

Andrew Doyle 1:20:31 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:31 It's largely disprop- disproportionate.

Andrew Doyle 1:20:33 Of course.

Joe Rogan 1:20:33 Some of them have two trans kids, three trans kids. It's like, what the fuck is going on here?

Andrew Doyle 1:20:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:39 This is not normal. This is not, this is not no influence whatsoever. This is... You're using that child as a virtue flag.

Andrew Doyle 1:20:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:20:47 You're flying that child as a trans flag in the front of your porch: "I have a trans kid."

Andrew Doyle 1:20:53 But don't you think that-

Joe Rogan 1:20:54 Like-

Andrew Doyle 1:20:54 ... like a lawsuit like this-

Joe Rogan 1:20:56 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:20:56 ... that's gonna change things? 'Cause no one's gonna insure that kind of procedure anymore. [chuckles] No one's g- like, that's a surgeon and a psychotherapist who are now lumbered with a $2 million bill-

Joe Rogan 1:21:05 Yes

Andrew Doyle 1:21:05 ... for their negligence.

Joe Rogan 1:21:06 And it's gonna open up the floodgates for all these other lawyers to start pouncing on all these other cases.

Andrew Doyle 1:21:10 Yeah, that's what I mean.

Joe Rogan 1:21:11 And the thing about the-- the horrible thing about these cases is not just that these children have, have their lives ruined by these surgeries and have been sterilised, and it's also that they've been attacked-

Andrew Doyle 1:21:23 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:21:23 ... so ruthlessly. You mean, you're talking about children that have made a mistake, th- or someone coerced them into making this mistake, that's changed their body for the rest of their life, and they're getting attacked online.

Andrew Doyle 1:21:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:21:36 Like, imagine being a fragile child already, who's willing to go through this procedure, can't believe they did it, now they don't have breasts anymore, their voice is deep forever, they're all fucked up-

Andrew Doyle 1:21:46 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:21:46 ... and then, eh, people are screaming at them online.

Andrew Doyle 1:21:49 Yeah, and it's-

Joe Rogan 1:21:50 It's crazy!

Andrew Doyle 1:21:51 But you know, this is how the, the Satanic child abuse, um, panic of the '80s-

Joe Rogan 1:21:55 Yes, exactly.

Andrew Doyle 1:21:56 This came to an end because of lawsuits. When, you know, when they started-- when they realised that these psychotherapists had been le- using these leading questions, effectively telling them, "You've repressed the memory..." You know, there was that book, The Courage to Heal, where it said: "If you think you might have been abused, you probably were." Like, such a reckless thing to say.

Joe Rogan 1:22:13 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:22:13 And, and all these people accused, you know, carers, parents. None of it was true, and but when they started suing the, uh, the, uh, psychotherapists, it all collapsed.

Joe Rogan 1:22:25 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:22:25 And I wonder whether, uh, hysteria can collapse if you... Actually, money talks, you know, whether like-

Joe Rogan 1:22:31 Well, it's already shifted in this general direction because of Elon buying Twitter.

Andrew Doyle 1:22:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:22:35 When Elon bought Twitter, the amount of trans-identified kids started to drop off.

Andrew Doyle 1:22:40 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:40 The amount of non-binary identified kids started to drop off.

Andrew Doyle 1:22:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:22:43 And that, I think, is a direct result of people being able to say what they really th- think. 'Cause in the past, like my friend Megan Murphy, she was banned off of Twitter until Elon bought it because she said a man is never a woman.

Andrew Doyle 1:22:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:22:55 That's all she said.

Andrew Doyle 1:22:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:22:56 A man is never a woman. She was arguing with people about biological males who identify as women being able to get into women's spaces, and she said, "A man is never a woman." [snaps fingers] Banned forever!

Andrew Doyle 1:23:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:06 So no one wanted to talk about this. See, there was no real discourse, and if there's no real discourse, then you can push a goofy ideology pretty fucking far. But as soon as people jump on board and start posting funny memes, and, and then Elon says, "It's open season. Do whatever you want"-

Andrew Doyle 1:23:21 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:23:22 ... and, and he calls it the woke mind virus, and everybody's, like, piling in, well, then you have discourse.

Andrew Doyle 1:23:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:23:27 And then anything that's absurd immediately gets shot down because people say: "No, this doesn't make any sense. This is crazy," you know, 'cause-

Andrew Doyle 1:23:35 It comes back to what you said. You said about debate, you said about discourse-

Joe Rogan 1:23:38 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:23:38 ... you said about if you, unless you... I mean, I just saw today, just on, you know, obviously on Twitter, 'cause I'm always on it, but I saw John Lithgow, you know, the actor-

Joe Rogan 1:23:45 Mm-hmm

Andrew Doyle 1:23:45 ... brilliant actor, who plays Dumbledore in the new Harry Potter thing, saying that JK Rowling's views are inexplicable. Inexplicable? It means you haven't read them. Like, JK Rowling-

Joe Rogan 1:23:55 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:23:55 ... is, is for women's rights, and she recognises that women's rights depend on the recognition of biological sex for the preservation of single-sex spaces. It's as simple as that. All he has to do is read the essay she wrote on her blog, like, about eight years ago. He can't even... He's not even sufficiently intellectual cur- intellectually curious to do that.

Joe Rogan 1:24:13 No.

Andrew Doyle 1:24:13 And he goes out and says, "It's inexplicable." Women's rights and gay rights are inexplicable? Really? Or are you just not having the conversation, and you're just shutting yourself up and saying-

Joe Rogan 1:24:22 Well, he's-

Andrew Doyle 1:24:22 ... "My friends have said she's evil. That's enough"

Joe Rogan 1:24:24 ... not criticised hard enough, but would be criticised if he supported JK Rowling. If he supported JK Rowling, he would be attacked.

Andrew Doyle 1:24:31 So it's a calculation, you're saying?

Joe Rogan 1:24:33 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 1:24:34 Maybe.

Joe Rogan 1:24:34 It's the same thing we're talking about with Hollywood being mentally ill.

Andrew Doyle 1:24:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:24:37 It's the same thing, where you have to shape your opinions based on how you'll be accepted by the group. It's the most groupthink place I've ever been in my life. There, it's almost universally left-leaning.

Andrew Doyle 1:24:49 But isn't that the problem in comedy, like with the UK? So many people who would otherwise be innovative, subversive comics, they've got nowhere to go.

Joe Rogan 1:24:55 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:24:56 So they just tailor their material.

Joe Rogan 1:24:57 Well, they come to Austin, baby. [chuckles]

Andrew Doyle 1:24:58 They come to Austin like I did, right?

Joe Rogan 1:25:00 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:25:00 That's it! They come to, they come to-

Joe Rogan 1:25:02 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:25:03 I, I, I, and I, I, I get so sick of it because I know in America it's much better. But in the UK, all of, like, the, my old friends from the comedy circuit who tell me, "No one's self-censoring. You can say what you want." No, I'm like: Are you kidding? Like, the list of people I know who have had shows cancelled, taken off, uh, because they caused offence... Uh, this week, Leo Kearse, a friend of mine, had one of his shows on his tour just deleted because some activists complained to the venue, right?

Joe Rogan 1:25:27 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:25:27 So, so it's happening all the time, and they're ed- ignoring this Himalayan [chuckles] mountain of evidence. Um, and they're saying it's not a thing. But of course, people are self-censoring all the time.

Joe Rogan 1:25:36 Well, it's even happening here.

Andrew Doyle 1:25:37 Is it?

Joe Rogan 1:25:38 Michael Rapaport got his shows, uh, he got his shows cancelled from Cap City Comedy Club-

Andrew Doyle 1:25:44 Did he?

Joe Rogan 1:25:44 ... which is our other comedy club in town, which is a great club owned by Helium.

Andrew Doyle 1:25:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:25:48 But they were saying that he's racist.... because Michael Rapaport is very pro-Israel.

Andrew Doyle 1:25:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:25:53 And, uh, uh, apparently-

Andrew Doyle 1:25:55 Why does that make you racist? [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:25:56 I don't know what he said, so I don't wanna speak out of turn.

Andrew Doyle 1:25:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:25:59 I don't know what exactly he said.

Speaker 1:26:01 To make a small correction, I think.

Andrew Doyle 1:26:02 Oh.

Speaker 1:26:03 Uh, I don't think that [clears throat] she has been... Uh, sorry, back to the Odyssey thing.

Andrew Doyle 1:26:07 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:26:08 She m- has been, uh, cast in the movie, but only Twitter rumors have said what her position in the movie is, and then everybody has ran with it.

Andrew Doyle 1:26:16 This is what the-

Joe Rogan 1:26:17 Oh, interesting.

Andrew Doyle 1:26:18 That's my-

Joe Rogan 1:26:18 So she could be-

Andrew Doyle 1:26:19 She could be anything

Joe Rogan 1:26:20 ... someone else.

Speaker 1:26:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:21 Another... A different character.

Speaker 1:26:22 All the articles I found online said it was, like, social media confirmation, and then people were just running with that.

Andrew Doyle 1:26:27 Well, there we go.

Joe Rogan 1:26:28 Oh!

Andrew Doyle 1:26:28 Well, isn't that what I said? I-

Joe Rogan 1:26:29 What is that article that you just clicked?

Speaker 1:26:31 This is the one I showed earlier.

Joe Rogan 1:26:32 But what is it from?

Speaker 1:26:32 It starts off with The Hungarian Conservative. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:26:35 [laughing] That's a niche. That's a niche.

Joe Rogan 1:26:37 Jamie, how dare you let that sneak by?

Speaker 1:26:40 I-

Joe Rogan 1:26:40 That you didn't notice-

Speaker 1:26:41 When-

Joe Rogan 1:26:41 ... it was The Hungarian Conservative?

Andrew Doyle 1:26:43 When you-

Speaker 1:26:43 When you hit, uh-

Andrew Doyle 1:26:43 Are you being paid by The Hungarian Conservative? [laughing]

Speaker 1:26:45 It's the top thing that popped up. It's the Helen of Troy movie-

Joe Rogan 1:26:47 Meanwhile, it's probably a fucking troll farm in Pakistan-

Andrew Doyle 1:26:50 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:26:50 ... that's creating that. It's-

Speaker 1:26:52 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:26:52 ... or it's probably in China or something.

Speaker 1:26:53 All I Googled was Helen of Troy Odyssey movie-

Andrew Doyle 1:26:55 Good

Speaker 1:26:55 ... and that's the very first article that popped up.

Andrew Doyle 1:26:56 Good for The Hungarian Conservative getting out-

Joe Rogan 1:26:58 That's so funny.

Andrew Doyle 1:26:58 Coming, coming out on top of the Google search. That's pretty good.

Joe Rogan 1:27:01 That's so funny.

Andrew Doyle 1:27:02 But I... Did I not say, "I'm not sure about this. It's a Twitter rumor"? I did.

Joe Rogan 1:27:05 But look, Elon Musk bought into it!

Speaker 1:27:06 That's right.

Joe Rogan 1:27:06 Elon Musk-

Speaker 1:27:07 That's how it spreads

Joe Rogan 1:27:07 ... and Christopher Nolan has lost his integrity. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:27:10 [laughing]

Speaker 1:27:10 That's how, that's how it spreads so far right now.

Joe Rogan 1:27:10 Oh, Elon.

Andrew Doyle 1:27:11 So there we go.

Joe Rogan 1:27:12 Well, the dude's too busy bui- building, building rockets to pay attention to what he tweets. [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:27:17 But, but this proves the point. Like, let's not...

Joe Rogan 1:27:19 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:27:19 Oh, yeah, he's gonna take us to the moon again, so, you know, that's okay.

Joe Rogan 1:27:22 No, he's not.

Andrew Doyle 1:27:22 Isn't he?

Joe Rogan 1:27:23 No, Artemis is. NASA.

Andrew Doyle 1:27:24 I thought, I thought he was working with NASA. I looked at that.

Joe Rogan 1:27:26 Oh, is he working with NASA on Artemis?

Andrew Doyle 1:27:27 No, again, someone said it online-

Speaker 1:27:29 Yeah, pretty sure

Andrew Doyle 1:27:29 ... and I just bought it. I just believed. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:27:30 Oh, well, he probably... They probably can't get there without him.

Andrew Doyle 1:27:32 [laughing] But that, like-

Joe Rogan 1:27:33 He's probably like, "Oh, I'll show you some things."

Andrew Doyle 1:27:35 But that's... Okay, so that is a perfect example-

Joe Rogan 1:27:37 Right, right

Andrew Doyle 1:27:38 ... because I am always now, as a- even when I mentioned that earlier, I was cautious, wasn't I?

Joe Rogan 1:27:42 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:27:42 Because I know I've, I've fallen for this so many times. I now double-check and triple-check-

Joe Rogan 1:27:47 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:27:47 ... everything, and I wish I didn't have to, but you do have to because even the mainstream, uh, media lie about stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:27:53 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:27:53 And then, and then Twitter rumors go absolutely mad.

Joe Rogan 1:27:55 But it's, it's important when you're talking about a historical film.

Andrew Doyle 1:27:59 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:28:00 Like, it's gotta kinda... You just can't do that. It doesn't make any sense.

Andrew Doyle 1:28:04 Well, you sort of can. I, like... I think an artist should be able to do what they want, and I think if you wanna... Like, they do it with Shakespeare all the time. Sorry to go back to Shakespeare, but I... You rarely go and see a Shakespeare play today that hasn't been filtered through the prism of identity politics and changed in, you-

Joe Rogan 1:28:17 Right-

Andrew Doyle 1:28:17 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:28:17 ... but that's not the same. That's not the same as historical figures.

Andrew Doyle 1:28:23 Uh, well, he wrote histories. He wrote about kings, Henry VII, Henry V, Henry VIII, I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:28:28 Yeah, but it's fiction, right? Like, the, the thing about The Odyssey is-

Andrew Doyle 1:28:33 Well, that's definitely fiction.

Joe Rogan 1:28:35 It is sort of, but, you know, they didn't think Troy existed, and then they found out it does.

Andrew Doyle 1:28:40 Right, so it's-

Joe Rogan 1:28:41 It's a real place

Andrew Doyle 1:28:42 ... it's based on-

Joe Rogan 1:28:43 Right

Andrew Doyle 1:28:43 ... myth and... Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:28:44 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:28:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:28:45 But you remember, like, they thought that Troy was a completely mythological creation, like-

Andrew Doyle 1:28:50 So it's an actual-

Joe Rogan 1:28:50 It's an actual place.

Andrew Doyle 1:28:51 They have, they have evidence that it was a place?

Joe Rogan 1:28:52 Yes. You didn't know that?

Andrew Doyle 1:28:54 No.

Joe Rogan 1:28:55 Yeah, they found it... When did they find Troy? It was in the 20th century. Um, so for the-

Andrew Doyle 1:29:00 But there wouldn't-

Joe Rogan 1:29:01 ... longest time, they-

Andrew Doyle 1:29:01 But there wouldn't have been sirens, and there wouldn't have been, uh, Cyclopes, and there wouldn't have... You know what I mean? Like-

Joe Rogan 1:29:06 Oh, no.

Andrew Doyle 1:29:07 Oh, Joe. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:29:07 No, Cyclopes, uh, they think were actually elephant skulls. That's what they think that was.

Andrew Doyle 1:29:11 Right. Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:29:12 Do you ever see an elephant skull?

Andrew Doyle 1:29:14 I have never seen an elephant skull.

Joe Rogan 1:29:15 Well, you know, where the trunk is, is an enormous hole.

Andrew Doyle 1:29:18 It's a big hole.

Joe Rogan 1:29:18 And they thought that that was an eyeball.

Andrew Doyle 1:29:20 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:29:20 So they would find these giant skulls with... That looked like... You know, they didn't know what the fuck it was.

Andrew Doyle 1:29:25 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:29:25 They're like, "Oh, my God, Cyclopes are real."

Andrew Doyle 1:29:27 Fair enough. I mean, I-

Joe Rogan 1:29:28 So here it is.

Andrew Doyle 1:29:29 So I guess-

Joe Rogan 1:29:29 Evidence that the legendary city of Troy was a real place began to emerge in the 1870s. Heinrich Schliemann, uh, discovered large-scale excavations at the Hisarlik, uh, in northwestern Turkey in 1870. So when did they first, uh, start excavating?

Andrew Doyle 1:29:48 So where is it? It's in Turkey.

Joe Rogan 1:29:49 It's in Turkey, yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:29:50 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:29:50 Which is,

Joe Rogan 1:29:51 which is a lot of the proponents of a, uh, a, a revising of the beginning of civilization are now pointing to Turkey-

Andrew Doyle 1:30:01 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:30:01 ... as opposed to, uh, like, Iraq and, you know-

Andrew Doyle 1:30:05 Yeah. Well, the Greeks were everywhere, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:30:06 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:30:06 So the Mesopotamians and the-

Joe Rogan 1:30:07 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Doyle 1:30:08 I mean, that, that doesn't surprise me. I mean, I, I think the re- the point I was making about Helen of Troy is that even if it's not real, even if it's not history, the myth of Helen of Troy means something quite significant within that story.

Joe Rogan 1:30:18 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 1:30:18 So if you subvert that-

Joe Rogan 1:30:20 Right

Andrew Doyle 1:30:21 ... the, the, the, the fundamental aspects of the story itself doesn't work-

Joe Rogan 1:30:24 Right

Andrew Doyle 1:30:24 ... and you can't buy into the myth.

Joe Rogan 1:30:25 It's like if you turn the Elephant Man into a handsome fellow with a six-pack.

Andrew Doyle 1:30:29 Exactly that.

Joe Rogan 1:30:30 And so it's repulsive-

Andrew Doyle 1:30:30 Don't give them ideas.

Joe Rogan 1:30:31 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:30:31 Don't give them ideas. They'll do that.

Joe Rogan 1:30:32 Um, can you show me a photograph of an elephant skull? [laughing] It's really kooky. But you see an elephant skull, and you're like, "Oh, I get it."

Andrew Doyle 1:30:39 That's why they saw it.

Joe Rogan 1:30:40 I could totally see you falling for that.

Andrew Doyle 1:30:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:42 You, you look at it, and you go, "What the fuck is that thing?" Like, look at an elephant skull. Isn't it nutty?

Andrew Doyle 1:30:47 Oh, completely. Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:30:48 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:30:48 And it's gonna be a big old beast.

Joe Rogan 1:30:50 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:30:50 So you're gonna think it's a-

Joe Rogan 1:30:51 Big, giant thing with tusks coming out of its mouth.

Andrew Doyle 1:30:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:54 Like, look, look what the... Look at the actual Cyclops on the left. Isn't that crazy?

Andrew Doyle 1:30:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:59 Of course.

Andrew Doyle 1:31:00 No, it makes sense.

Joe Rogan 1:31:00 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:31:00 Makes complete sense.

Joe Rogan 1:31:02 Complete sense.

Andrew Doyle 1:31:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:03 Yeah. You found that, you're like, "Oh, my God, Cyclopes are real," you would think, "Oh, my God, these monsters."

Andrew Doyle 1:31:07 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:31:08 Isn't that funny? What a weird-shaped skull. So strange.

Andrew Doyle 1:31:13 But weird-

Joe Rogan 1:31:13 You would never think the eyeballs would be down there by the cheekbones. That's what's weird about them.

Andrew Doyle 1:31:17 I have to say, elephant anatomy is something I'm not... I haven't brushed up on that recently.

Joe Rogan 1:31:21 But show the photo again. Look at that photo of where the eyeballs are.

Andrew Doyle 1:31:24 So where's the-

Joe Rogan 1:31:24 The eyeballs are where the cheekbones are. See? See the little circular holes-

Andrew Doyle 1:31:27 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:31:27 ... where the cheeks are? Now, when you see an elephant in the flesh... Like, show me a photograph of an elephant. Just an elephant. So-

Andrew Doyle 1:31:39 Oh, so yes

Joe Rogan 1:31:40 ... see where their eyeballs are? Isn't that crazy?

Andrew Doyle 1:31:41 Yeah. That's not how-

Joe Rogan 1:31:42 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:31:42 ... you think of them, is it?

Joe Rogan 1:31:43 No. Well, they're so strange.

Andrew Doyle 1:31:45 Aren't they?

Joe Rogan 1:31:45 Like, give me that se- the second one on the left there. Yeah, look at that. Click on that. What a wild animal!

Andrew Doyle 1:31:51 They're amazing.

Joe Rogan 1:31:51 Have you never seen one of those before? You'd be like, "Whoa!"

Andrew Doyle 1:31:53 Only, only in a zoo.

Joe Rogan 1:31:55 Crazy.

Andrew Doyle 1:31:56 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:31:56 I rode one in Thailand.

Andrew Doyle 1:31:57 No.

Joe Rogan 1:31:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah.... Yeah, I don't recommend it. I don't think you should ride them.

Andrew Doyle 1:32:01 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:32:01 My f- whole family wanted to do it. I didn't wanna do it. I felt like it was exploiting them, but they're very sweet.

Andrew Doyle 1:32:06 They're gentle, aren't they?

Joe Rogan 1:32:07 Yeah, well-

Andrew Doyle 1:32:07 Are then they're pleasant creatures.

Joe Rogan 1:32:08 It's a whole process. So one of the things you do when you go to Thailand is you, uh, take care of them first-

Andrew Doyle 1:32:14 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:32:14 ... before you r- you don't just hop on them, you feed them.

Andrew Doyle 1:32:16 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 1:32:16 So you give them a bunch of sugar cane, and you pet them, and they teach you to, like... So that the animal understands you have a gentle spirit, like-

Andrew Doyle 1:32:24 But that, it's intelligence, right?

Joe Rogan 1:32:25 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 1:32:25 It's because they're smart.

Joe Rogan 1:32:26 They're very smart.

Andrew Doyle 1:32:26 It's, it's not like-

Joe Rogan 1:32:27 Also, they'll fucking kill you. [chuckles]

Andrew Doyle 1:32:28 Oh, they are scary beasts.

Joe Rogan 1:32:30 Stomp you to death. [chuckles]

Andrew Doyle 1:32:31 But they're not like the hippo. The hippo will kill you.

Joe Rogan 1:32:33 Right. You cannot-

Andrew Doyle 1:32:34 So-

Joe Rogan 1:32:34 ... do that with a hippo.

Andrew Doyle 1:32:35 So-

Joe Rogan 1:32:35 Right

Andrew Doyle 1:32:35 ... and, and, and I believe the reason why hippos are so dangerous-- We think they're really cute and fat, but they are f- fucking dangerous, and they can run fast, and they can tear you apart.

Joe Rogan 1:32:42 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:32:43 And they will. But the, the k- the key difference, I believe, is the intelligence thing. So el- elephants are really smart, and hippos are really stupid.

Joe Rogan 1:32:48 Yes. Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:32:49 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:32:49 And you can also become friends with an elephant.

Andrew Doyle 1:32:51 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:32:52 Like, uh, you can actually take care of an elephant and be kind to an elephant, and that elephant will, like, they be gentle.

Andrew Doyle 1:32:57 They'll remember.

Joe Rogan 1:32:58 Yeah, they come up to you and they... So you feed them sugar cane, and you talk to them. You say, "Hey, buddy, how are you?"

Andrew Doyle 1:33:03 That's sweet.

Joe Rogan 1:33:03 And you pet them, and you wash them. You wash them. You do all kinds of different things with them. You brush them, so it feels good for them.

Andrew Doyle 1:33:09 You're gonna have an elephant soon, aren't you? You're gonna have-

Joe Rogan 1:33:11 No, I would never have an elephant.

Andrew Doyle 1:33:12 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:33:12 I'd be friends with an elephant, but he'd have to be wild. Like, I just don't agree with any of that.

Andrew Doyle 1:33:16 What, having them in zoos and things?

Joe Rogan 1:33:18 No, I hate it. I think-

Andrew Doyle 1:33:19 I, I do as well. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:20 I think if you're gonna have animals, you should have a gigantic area that is a, a true ecosystem that they exist in naturally.

Andrew Doyle 1:33:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:29 And then people can maybe venture into that ecosystem and explore.

Andrew Doyle 1:33:33 I felt that w- I was at the zoo recently in Arizona, and I felt that-

Joe Rogan 1:33:35 So depressing

Andrew Doyle 1:33:36 ... I felt-- There was one jaguar pacing obsessively.

Joe Rogan 1:33:38 Oh!

Andrew Doyle 1:33:39 I just felt this... We're just like- it's like going to... You know, like in the El- Elizabethan era, they used to go to Bedlam to watch the people who were mad-

Joe Rogan 1:33:45 Mm

Andrew Doyle 1:33:45 ... as an entertainment thing. It felt a little bit like we were doing that, like, what, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:33:49 I have far too much appreciation for the wild.

Andrew Doyle 1:33:51 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:52 You know, I have animals that are contained at my house, but they have been watered down by selective breeding to the point where they can't even... Like, I have a, a King Charles Spaniel. He's this tiny little fella.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:03 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:04 Like, he's incapable of doing anything.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:34:06 Like, he's just a little cutie pie.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:07 You can't unleash him into the wild.

Joe Rogan 1:34:08 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:09 He wouldn't last. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:34:09 And I have a golden retriever who thinks everybody's his best friend. Like-

Andrew Doyle 1:34:13 Did, did you see the guy who kept a hippo from birth, and then it ate him?

Joe Rogan 1:34:15 And then it killed him.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:16 It ate him.

Joe Rogan 1:34:16 Yeah. Yeah. Ha ha.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:17 So, you know, like-

Joe Rogan 1:34:18 Got annoyed

Andrew Doyle 1:34:19 ... understand that you're dealing with a, a creature that doesn't see the world that you do, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:34:23 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:23 It, it, it-

Joe Rogan 1:34:23 There's a lot of animals that you can breed up until you can rather, uh, have them in your home, um, like chimps famously.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:31 Up until a certain point, and then they decide, "I wanna rip your face off."

Andrew Doyle 1:34:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:34 "I don't like you anymore."

Andrew Doyle 1:34:35 Oh, I'm sure... Oh, uh, if cats were as big as we are, they'd probably do the same.

Joe Rogan 1:34:38 Well, they would just eat you.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:39 They would. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:34:40 They would kill you 100%. The only reason why we have a relationship with cats is 'cause they're too small to eat us.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:45 That's it.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:46 Cats are great 'cause they're convenient. They do what they want.

Joe Rogan 1:34:48 They're sweet.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:49 They're sweet.

Joe Rogan 1:34:49 I love cats, but, I mean, you can't have a fucking giant one.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:52 But you can if you take care of them from the time that they're cubs.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:57 And most of the time, they don't kill you.

Andrew Doyle 1:34:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:59 But then you get a little Siegfried and Roy action, and it just decides, for whatever reason, "I'm gonna drag that dude away with his neck."

Andrew Doyle 1:35:05 Yep. But, you know, these ca- these sorts of pleasures, you know, life with animals and that, this sort of thing is gonna matter more and more to us, I think, when the robots take over-

Joe Rogan 1:35:13 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:35:14 ... and the [chuckles] gonna be-

Joe Rogan 1:35:15 Well, we might have to live with them.

Andrew Doyle 1:35:17 Well, with, with-

Joe Rogan 1:35:17 We might be wild, and the robots might take over the cities. We might have to be forced to be nomadic tribes again.

Andrew Doyle 1:35:22 I think they might see us-

Joe Rogan 1:35:23 We have no impact whatsoever on the environment. You can only live a subsistence lifestyle as a hunter-gatherer with primitive tools. When the, the-

Andrew Doyle 1:35:31 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:35:31 ... the robots will no longer allow you. You can hunt, but you have to make your own bows and arrows. We're like, "What? I can't possibly do that!"

Andrew Doyle 1:35:39 So they're gonna see us as pets-

Joe Rogan 1:35:40 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:35:40 ... is what you're saying. They're gonna see us-

Joe Rogan 1:35:41 Yeah, they're gonna treat us the way I wanna treat elephants. So I want elephants to exist in a contained ecosystem where they, they live naturally.

Andrew Doyle 1:35:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:35:49 And they're gonna say, "You can't have cars anymore. You can't have any of these things."

Andrew Doyle 1:35:52 Well, that's a good point, though, isn't it? So a- all the stuff I've been reading at the moment about AI is saying that AI won't wipe us out because it will see us in the way we see animals and way we see pets, is that, "Well, we think you're sweet and stupid, but we'll- we, we, we like having you around. We'll tolerate you." Is that the way it's gonna go with it?

Joe Rogan 1:36:07 I think we're going to be forced to integrate, and I think-

Andrew Doyle 1:36:10 In what way?

Joe Rogan 1:36:10 I- i- integrate technologically. Like, I think we already are. Like, Elon's famously made the point that you're already a cyborg. You, you have your phone that you just carry around with you everywhere, and then with Neuralink, it'll be inside your body, and then whatever-

Andrew Doyle 1:36:24 I wouldn't. I'm not letting that happen.

Joe Rogan 1:36:25 You won't in the beginning, in the first iterations. A lot of people won't. But if it makes your life measurably better, and it's a simple procedure that's non-invasive, you know, it's like a simple thing that they plug into your, the back of your head.

Andrew Doyle 1:36:38 Well, I, I, I'd be like a cyborg warrior. K- is that what you're saying? I'd have, like, like-

Joe Rogan 1:36:42 Well, you would probably be connected to artificial intelligence, and it would greatly enhance your cognitive function-

Andrew Doyle 1:36:49 Okay

Joe Rogan 1:36:50 ... and greatly enhance your access to information. It would be instantaneous. You would no longer have to read. You would just have all the information. It would just completely change the way you store information, 'cause you would probably have some sort of an external hard drive that connects to you. It would be something-

Andrew Doyle 1:37:06 Ah

Joe Rogan 1:37:07 ... where your memory is no longer fallible, but it's now infallible.

Andrew Doyle 1:37:11 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:37:11 It's gonna be a perfect 4K memory or 8K memory. You're gonna be able to rewind. I mean, wasn't there an episode of Dark Mirror where they rewind their memories?

Andrew Doyle 1:37:19 And about, uh-

Speaker 1:37:20 Interesting twist-

Joe Rogan 1:37:20 What is this?

Speaker 1:37:21 ... in this AI space, uh... Remember you sent me that-

Andrew Doyle 1:37:22 What does it say?

Speaker 1:37:23 ... bot thing that was going around this week?

Joe Rogan 1:37:25 Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:37:25 Oh, did you see it this week?

Joe Rogan 1:37:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what we're talking about.

Speaker 1:37:27 So this is a new twist on it. Uh, I think if this is real, 'cause k- grain of salt, could be bullshit. I'll just say that.

Andrew Doyle 1:37:34 Like the Odyssey thing?

Speaker 1:37:35 Yep.

Andrew Doyle 1:37:35 Okay.

Speaker 1:37:35 But if this is real, these bots have made a website where they... where the other bots can rent a human to do tasks that the bots cannot physically do.

Andrew Doyle 1:37:44 Well, that's slavery.

Joe Rogan 1:37:45 No, renting.

Speaker 1:37:46 So-

Joe Rogan 1:37:46 It's a... It's like jobs.

Speaker 1:37:47 It's like a task rabbit.

Andrew Doyle 1:37:47 You're renting a human being.

Speaker 1:37:49 Yeah, ta- the... A human has put themselves on this website-

Andrew Doyle 1:37:52 Oh, humans put themselves on it

Speaker 1:37:53 ... for abilities to do whatever they want, and the-

Joe Rogan 1:37:55 It's like gig economy

Speaker 1:37:57 ... bots, yeah, get paid your way, robot bosses. [chuckles]

Andrew Doyle 1:37:59 Is this the thing where, um, the ro-

Speaker 1:38:00 Here's the stuff that they need done.

Andrew Doyle 1:38:02 The robots are inventing their own language that we can't read?

Speaker 1:38:04 Yes. Look at this.

Andrew Doyle 1:38:04 It's on this website, right?

Joe Rogan 1:38:05 Meet Space Tasks.

Speaker 1:38:07 Sort of. Yeah, I don't- that's again, whether or not someone could have made this site to try to go viral-

Andrew Doyle 1:38:11 ... I'll just go with a grain of salt with that.

Joe Rogan 1:38:13 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:38:13 But they might not have in the bot space.

Joe Rogan 1:38:16 Meet space.

Andrew Doyle 1:38:16 Yeah, we live in the meet space.

Joe Rogan 1:38:16 Rentahuman.ai is fun.

Andrew Doyle 1:38:19 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:38:20 That's fun. Well, you know, the-- so the other thing is real, though, right? The AI chat room, where these AI-

Andrew Doyle 1:38:26 Um

Joe Rogan 1:38:26 ... agents have joined, and now it's-

Andrew Doyle 1:38:29 Yes and no.

Joe Rogan 1:38:30 Yes and no?

Andrew Doyle 1:38:30 What do you mean? Some of it, they are creating a space, but I've already seen places where people are taking advantage of it for vir- viral reasons. For instance, uh, let's just assume it's real. There was a, like, a Polymarket, um, bet that some... Oh, shit, what was it? Someone- one of these bots would sue.

Joe Rogan 1:38:49 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:38:49 And so someone actually just, like, went ahead and filed a lawsuit on behalf of their bot and made it look like the bot did the thing.

Joe Rogan 1:38:54 Oh, so they could win-

Andrew Doyle 1:38:55 So they could win-

Joe Rogan 1:38:56 ... the Polymarket bet?

Andrew Doyle 1:38:57 Yeah, exactly. So-

Joe Rogan 1:38:57 How regulated is that Polymarket stuff?

Andrew Doyle 1:39:00 I see.

Joe Rogan 1:39:00 'Cause it seems like you could get away with a lot.

Andrew Doyle 1:39:02 It depends how much money is available. As far as I know, it's just, like, if I put up 20 bucks for a bet now, there's only 20 bucks in the market, so-

Joe Rogan 1:39:09 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:39:09 ... that's, that's all that exists, and more people have to back it up to make more money involved.

Joe Rogan 1:39:14 Right, but if you have something where you have inside knowledge of it, is there any regulation?

Andrew Doyle 1:39:20 There's supposed to be. Uh, like, there's supposed to be rules on the bets. If I create one of those rules, you're supposed to... I think there's, like, caveats. You can't have knowledge of it, in order, like, that can cancel the bet, or I think if they find out later... I don't, um, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:39:31 Do you go to jail? Like, what happens?

Andrew Doyle 1:39:33 I don't know, jail, you probably just have to lose back the bet, or you probably go to, like, a civil lawsuit or something like that.

Joe Rogan 1:39:37 Mm.

Andrew Doyle 1:39:37 I don't know about jail yet.

Joe Rogan 1:39:38 Interesting.

Andrew Doyle 1:39:38 I don't know if it's in any laws.

Joe Rogan 1:39:40 You know, the UFC is plagued with this issue. They actually cancelled a fight recently because there was suspicious betting, and so there's been one fight, uh, some... So here's the story.

Andrew Doyle 1:39:52 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:39:52 One guy apparently was injured, and his teammates knew he was injured, and so everyone started placing a bet for him to lose in the first round.

Andrew Doyle 1:40:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:40:03 'Cause he apparently had a bad knee injury. And so he knew that he couldn't fight, and so the, the idea was, "Let's make a lot of money betting on me," 'cause he was the favorite. He would go in there... Or betting against me, and so he would go in there and throw a kick, fall down, injured-

Andrew Doyle 1:40:21 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:40:21 ... get beat up, they'd stop the fight, and then all these people that knew he was injured make a ton of money.

Andrew Doyle 1:40:26 And he was in on it, like, he told them that he was gonna-

Joe Rogan 1:40:28 Allegedly.

Andrew Doyle 1:40:29 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:40:29 I just wanna say allegedly.

Andrew Doyle 1:40:30 Okay, okay, good.

Joe Rogan 1:40:30 But it's enough so that the, the, the team was removed from the UFC roster. Like, if you are competing for that team, you no longer can fight in the UFC. You have to find a new gym.

Andrew Doyle 1:40:40 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:40:40 The coach was no longer allowed to coach, the fighter was banned, and so then the FBI got involved, and they said, "Well, there's a bunch of different fights that are suspicious." So then a bunch of fighters came out and said, "Hey, somebody offered me $70,000 to lose," and I said, "No."

Andrew Doyle 1:40:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40:57 And so then there was a fight recently between Michael Johnson and Alexander Hernandez, which is a fight I was really looking forward to, that was cancelled last minute, and I was like: What's going on? They said, "Suspicious betting activity."

Andrew Doyle 1:41:08 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:41:08 And so someone was saying that Alexander Hernandez was injured, and a bunch of money came in on him to lose. He was actually a favorite going into the fight.

Andrew Doyle 1:41:17 And that therefore ma- rigged it?

Joe Rogan 1:41:19 Nope, didn't rig it because the FBI, uh, was informed. I believe they were informed, but the UFC was informed, and the UFC pulled the fight.

Andrew Doyle 1:41:27 So wait-

Joe Rogan 1:41:27 They said, "Because of this suspicious betting activity, um, because a lot of le- late-minute money came in on this one guy to win, we're gonna pull this fight from the card and not allow this fight to take place and do a thorough investigation-

Andrew Doyle 1:41:40 Okay

Joe Rogan 1:41:40 ... because something seems wrong because of the previous fight that they know was fixed."

Andrew Doyle 1:41:44 But fighters have been doing that for ages, haven't they?

Joe Rogan 1:41:46 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 1:41:46 I mean, that's the thing that they've always done.

Joe Rogan 1:41:47 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 1:41:48 How does that connect, then, to the AI element that, that this website?

Joe Rogan 1:41:52 Well, we were, we were talking about betting.

Andrew Doyle 1:41:54 Oh, I see!

Joe Rogan 1:41:54 We were talking about Polymarket.

Andrew Doyle 1:41:56 I like to-

Joe Rogan 1:41:56 We weren't talking about AI.

Andrew Doyle 1:41:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:57 We were talking about-

Andrew Doyle 1:41:58 I was trying to connect the-

Joe Rogan 1:41:58 Yeah, yeah. We were talking about Polymarket bets-

Andrew Doyle 1:42:00 Gotcha, okay

Joe Rogan 1:42:00 ... and whether or not it's legal to have inside information.

Andrew Doyle 1:42:03 But they've al- they... I mean, I know that, uh, sports-

Joe Rogan 1:42:05 Polymarket privileged users made millions betting on war strikes and diplomatic strategy. What did they know beforehand? Privileged users, right. So imagine if you're someone who's an aide-

Andrew Doyle 1:42:16 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:42:16 ... to the Pentagon. You know, you're, you're working there, and you know that we are, it, gonna bomb Iran.

Andrew Doyle 1:42:22 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:42:22 And then there's a Polymarket thing about it, and no one else knows.

Andrew Doyle 1:42:25 Okay, okay, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:42:26 You know?

Andrew Doyle 1:42:26 That, I mean, that's been going on forever, though, hasn't it? People have always done that. They've always manipulated. That's a plot in Pulp Fiction, isn't it? Where, where, sort of, Bruce Willis's character bets on something he knows is gonna... He loses the fight deliberately.

Joe Rogan 1:42:35 He loses, throws the fight.

Andrew Doyle 1:42:37 So that he can-

Joe Rogan 1:42:37 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:42:37 ... make the money off it.

Joe Rogan 1:42:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:42:38 You know, it's that kind of thing.

Joe Rogan 1:42:39 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:42:39 Yeah, but that-

Joe Rogan 1:42:40 That's always gone on. But this Polymarket thing is new because you can kind of... There's Kalshi, and then there's, uh, uh, DraftKings has it now.

Andrew Doyle 1:42:49 Yeah, it's not actually gambling is the difference here.

Joe Rogan 1:42:51 You're speculating.

Andrew Doyle 1:42:52 Yeah, you're not taking-

Joe Rogan 1:42:53 Oh, right

Andrew Doyle 1:42:53 ... money from the book-

Joe Rogan 1:42:54 Right

Andrew Doyle 1:42:54 ... or the house or whatever. You're betting against each other.

Joe Rogan 1:42:58 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:42:58 Okay, so it's-

Joe Rogan 1:42:58 But the fact that they know about it, and they know it's happening, that means they'll be able to crack down on it. But I don't know because there's a lot of st- there's, there's so many options and possibilities.

Andrew Doyle 1:43:07 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:43:08 Like, unless you make a gigantic score and people start getting suspicious, if you're not greedy about it-

Andrew Doyle 1:43:13 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:43:14 ... and you're just kind of sneaking around a little bit here and a little bit there, I bet you could probably make a lot of money doing that if you know some things.

Andrew Doyle 1:43:18 But do you think fighters and people like that, and sportspeople generally, I mean, they're too proud, aren't they, to let, let, let something like that go just in case- just for money?

Joe Rogan 1:43:25 No.

Andrew Doyle 1:43:26 No?

Joe Rogan 1:43:26 No, that's not true.

Andrew Doyle 1:43:27 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:43:27 Depends on how much money they're making. Look, if you're Anthony Joshua, I'd say, yeah, you're not gonna do that.

Andrew Doyle 1:43:31 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:43:31 You're very wealthy. But if you're a guy who's on the undercard, and you're only getting $10,000 to fight, but someone's giving you $100,000 to lose-

Andrew Doyle 1:43:40 Yeah, okay

Joe Rogan 1:43:40 ... and you say, "Okay, I'm just gonna box shitty tonight," guys have done that forever.

Andrew Doyle 1:43:44 Yeah, I guess so. I just, I-

Joe Rogan 1:43:45 Just don't knock this guy out, whatever you do, carry him, or carry him to the 10th round.

Andrew Doyle 1:43:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:43:51 You know, there's a lot of that going on-

Andrew Doyle 1:43:52 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:43:52 ... where they say, "I have a bet that you're gonna knock him out in the 10th round, so knock him out in the 10th round only."

Andrew Doyle 1:43:57 I don't think you'll ever be able to stop that-

Joe Rogan 1:43:59 No

Andrew Doyle 1:43:59 ... if that's gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 1:44:00 No, I don't think so either.

Andrew Doyle 1:44:01 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:44:01 I mean, that's, that's gone on forever.

Andrew Doyle 1:44:03 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:44:04 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:44:04 But isn't fighting like a kind of vocation, like a creative vocation for a lot of people?

Joe Rogan 1:44:08 Well, it is creative.... believe it or not, um, because movement is creative.

Andrew Doyle 1:44:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:44:13 You know, when you're fighting, you're not just running at each other and ch- some guys do, but the really good guys don't just run at each other and charge.

Andrew Doyle 1:44:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:44:20 There's feints and deception, there's movement-

Andrew Doyle 1:44:23 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:44:23 There's certain things that they're doing where they're reading your movement and trying to guide you in a particular direction and set you up. Like boxers-

Andrew Doyle 1:44:31 I can believe it.

Joe Rogan 1:44:31 Boxers call it setting traps.

Andrew Doyle 1:44:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:44:33 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:44:34 It's like playing a... You've got to bluff.

Joe Rogan 1:44:35 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 1:44:36 Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:44:36 Yeah, there's a lot of feinting involved in, in fighting.

Andrew Doyle 1:44:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:44:40 There's a lot of, like, fake movement to get you to react, and then they kick you when you settle in. You know, there's-- it's, it's really creative. You know, which is why, like... Was it Faye Dunaway? No. Was it, who was it that said, you know, the, the older woman that said it and talked about the arts, and I don't mean mixed martial arts. God, who was it?

Andrew Doyle 1:44:59 What, like a kind of snobbish thing about-

Joe Rogan 1:45:01 Maybe Glenn Close, maybe.

Andrew Doyle 1:45:02 Glenn Close?

Joe Rogan 1:45:02 No, it wasn't her. It was the lady from-

1:45:06 Bridges of Madison County

1:45:07 ... Bridges of Madison County. Who was that?

Andrew Doyle 1:45:09 That's, uh, Meryl Streep.

Joe Rogan 1:45:11 Meryl Streep, that's who it was.

Andrew Doyle 1:45:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:45:12 Yeah, Meryl Streep said that. [chuckles] It was like a... It got- it pissed off so many martial arts people.

Andrew Doyle 1:45:18 Why? That Meryl Streep doesn't like that, does not-

Joe Rogan 1:45:20 She's saying, "I'm not talking about mixed martial arts."

Andrew Doyle 1:45:22 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:45:22 Like, who thought you were?

Andrew Doyle 1:45:24 Yeah. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:45:25 Who thought you were, Meryl? That's crazy. But also-

Andrew Doyle 1:45:27 I don't know, she's pretty versatile. She can do it all.

Joe Rogan 1:45:29 But also, even though it's violent, you, do, you think it's not art, you, just 'cause you don't understand it. If you understood it, it's, it is art, and it is in fact like a beautiful... Some performances are beautiful.

Andrew Doyle 1:45:40 Well, it's choreography, right?

Joe Rogan 1:45:41 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:45:41 In a way.

Joe Rogan 1:45:42 Well, it's not choreography at all. It's, it's ad-libbing in the moment. I mean, there's preconceived motions that you have that you're hoping that if the guy does this, you're gonna do that, and sometimes it works out.

Andrew Doyle 1:45:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:45:56 But it's like the poetry of movement of a s- of a really sublime fighter, like, you know, Anderson Silva in his prime-

Andrew Doyle 1:46:03 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:46:03 ... was beautiful to watch, you know?

Andrew Doyle 1:46:05 I believe you. I, you know, my, I have very limited experience of this. I did kung fu when I was 12, and I stopped [chuckles] because I got so bruised.

Joe Rogan 1:46:12 Oh, well, there you go.

Andrew Doyle 1:46:13 I got, I got so hurt, I was too cowardly. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:46:15 But, you know, people impose their own standards on other people-

Andrew Doyle 1:46:19 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:46:19 ... and their own ideas of what things are, you know-

Andrew Doyle 1:46:21 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:46:22 ... from the outside, and, you know, it's kind of silly.

Andrew Doyle 1:46:24 Yeah. Oh, Joe, I was gonna tell you about this Berkeley thing, and I almost-

Joe Rogan 1:46:27 Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right.

Andrew Doyle 1:46:28 We, we, we got onto-

Joe Rogan 1:46:29 Sidetracked

Andrew Doyle 1:46:29 ... got onto elephants. Um, but I think that- [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:46:32 [laughing]

Andrew Doyle 1:46:32 It was a natural segue, um, because I, because I think this encapsulates all of the stuff you were talking about, which is that I was going to this, basically, Charlie Kirk's tour.

Joe Rogan 1:46:41 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 1:46:41 He was meant to go on. Berkeley was the last date, and, um, Rob Schneider had agreed to do it, and, um, apparently, he'd said to Charlie, "You know, what's the wor- what's the craziest place you could take me to?" And he said, "Berkeley. Berkeley's gonna be the craziest. Let's do that." So he was already booked to do it.

Joe Rogan 1:46:55 Oh, wow.

Andrew Doyle 1:46:55 After what happened with Charlie, uh, Rob asked me if I'd come along as well, and we were... So we'd be on a panel, and I had no idea of the extent of the problem, right? So, uh, and I'm sure you know a lot more than I do. Uh, you know, but I turned up. We were there. We, we turned up, and there were men with guns. We were in, you know, in an SUV under the ground. We got into this venue, and suddenly the security start showing me footage from outside, and people are... It's like a war zone. People are s- throwing smoke bombs. They've- they're, they're trying to crash through the railings. Some guy gets beaten up. He's covered in blood 'cause he was wearing a T-shirt with Turning Point written on it. And I'm suddenly realizing, "You know what? Th- this is a fantasy world that we're now occupying." We're now occupying a world where the people outside think the world is this, and what's going on inside is completely disconnected from it.

Joe Rogan 1:47:41 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:47:41 And I actually found it quite depressing. 'Cause when I was sitting on stage talking to Rob and Peter Boghossian and Frank Turek, these people of completely different viewpoints, we're just having a chat. Outside, they're smashing things, they're screaming, they're saying that fascists have overrun the university.

Joe Rogan 1:47:55 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:47:56 And I'm thinking, just to come back to that point you made about, you know, that need to discuss- for discussion. That experience made me think, actually, now, what's happening is we're like- we're living in two separate worlds at the same time, and we can't see what- we can't see what the other side is, what the, what the intentions of the other side are, and I don't know how you resolve that. I think that's... That, to me, sort of encapsulated the entire problem.

Joe Rogan 1:48:18 Well, at this point, it's gonna be very difficult to resolve, and I, I honestly think it's gonna take a generation to work through it.

Andrew Doyle 1:48:25 But isn't it as simple as l- people learning what the word fascist means, for instance? Like-

Joe Rogan 1:48:29 It's not just that. It's like they, they firmly believe that they are trying to fight against something that is going to destroy democracy in this country, which is conservative values.

Andrew Doyle 1:48:40 But we had that with the No Kings r- there, so there's a No Kings-

Joe Rogan 1:48:42 Mm-hmm

Andrew Doyle 1:48:43 ... March, and I couldn't figure that out. I was trying to figure out, what, what are they... This is an elected leader.

Joe Rogan 1:48:47 Well, you know it's all organized, right? You know this is all funded and organized.

Andrew Doyle 1:48:50 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:48:50 Okay, it is. So, um, this was Mike Benz's point when he was-

Andrew Doyle 1:48:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:48:56 ... talking about the defunding of USAID and what they use that money for. NGOs, uh, get a bunch of money, and they, uh, fund a bunch of things, uh, particularly in other countries, where they're essentially making it look like there's these on-the-ground street protests that are very organic.

Andrew Doyle 1:49:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:49:14 But it's not. It's very organized, and it's very funded, and the idea is to start chaos.

Andrew Doyle 1:49:19 So I've seen people get caught out, people who are clearly being paid, who appear at various different things.

Joe Rogan 1:49:23 It's not just that, it's-

Andrew Doyle 1:49:25 But-

Joe Rogan 1:49:25 ... it's also email campaigns, it's, um, indoctrinating people into this particular ideology by supporting universities, so you fund it in advance.

Andrew Doyle 1:49:34 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49:34 So it's like decades of... And this is, uh, uh, y- I'm sure you've seen, um, the Russian guy from 1984 or 1985, Yuri Bezmenov, talking about the-

Andrew Doyle 1:49:48 Remind me.

Joe Rogan 1:49:48 You've never seen it?

Andrew Doyle 1:49:49 I don't think I've seen it.

Joe Rogan 1:49:49 It's a wonderful video because it shows you exactly what happened, how they're gonna introduce Marxism and Leninism into universities, and then it'll indoctrinate children, and then those children will be poisoned, and within one generation, it'll ruin the United States' entire-

Andrew Doyle 1:50:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:50:05 ... educational system.

Andrew Doyle 1:50:06 So that's the Long March idea.

Joe Rogan 1:50:07 And therefore... Yeah, that's the Long-

Andrew Doyle 1:50:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:50:09 But l- you should watch a little bit of this-

Andrew Doyle 1:50:10 Okay, okay, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:50:10 ... 'cause it's, it's crazy. Because back then, I remember the 1980s, every- that would be a crazy idea. No, universities are where people have free thought and discussion. It's very important.

Andrew Doyle 1:50:21 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:50:22 You know, and I, I was in a very left-leaning place at the time. I was living in-

Andrew Doyle 1:50:25 Where were you?

Joe Rogan 1:50:26 ... Boston, you know?

Andrew Doyle 1:50:27 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:50:27 And there's, like, there were probably more universities per capita than anywhere else in the country, at least at the time. And it was a very well-read city. Like, the idea that universities are gonna destroy the way human beings interact and debate-

Andrew Doyle 1:50:40 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:50:40 ... is, like, preposterous. But this guy was talking about this back then, that the Soviets had planned this in advance, and that they had essentially subverted our entire education system, and thereby would-- those people would leave those schools indoctrinated and enter into the workforce with these new ideas in universal acceptance that these ideas are correct, and then it would, in turn, r-... you know, the butterfly effect.

Andrew Doyle 1:51:03 But do you think that everyone- I don't, I can't be sure that it's as conspiratorial as that, because there must have been a lot of, you know, people who just got on board with this without-

Joe Rogan 1:51:10 Well, there's a lot of money involved in doing this.

Andrew Doyle 1:51:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:51:13 There's a lot of funds that have come from China. There's a lot of money that has been donated to these universities. Like, find that video.

Andrew Doyle 1:51:20 Uh, weirdly... Okay, I found it, but there's, like, a second version on Twitter I've never seen before.

1:51:24 An AI-moderated one. [laughing]

1:51:26 No, no, no. It's just like a different version.

1:51:27 He's now in a wig. Oh, I recognize him.

Joe Rogan 1:51:30 So listen to what he says.

Speaker 1:51:33 - is spent on espionage as such. The other 85% is a slow process, which we call either ideological subversion or active measures, actively mere priyatya, in the language of, of the KGB, or psychological warfare. What it basically means is to change the perception of reality of every American to such an extent that despite of the abundance of information, no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of defending themselves, their families, their community, and their country. It's a great brainwashing, uh, process, which goes very slow, and it's divided in, in four basic stages. Uh, the first one being demoralization. It takes from fifteen to twenty years to demoralize a nation. Why that many years? Because this is the minimum number of years which requires to, uh, educate one generation of students in the country of, of, of your enemy exposed to the ideology of the enemy. In other words, Marxism-Leninism ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of, of, of at least three generations of American students without being challenged or counterbalanced by the basic values of Americanism, American patriotism. The result? The result you can see. Most of the people who graduated in the '60s, dropouts or half-baked intellectuals, are now occupying the positions of power in the government, civil service, business, mass media, educational system. You are stuck with them. You cannot get rid of them. They are contaminated. They are programmed to think and react to certain stimuli in a certain pattern. You cannot change their mind, even if you, if you expose them to authentic information, even if you prove that white is white and black i- uh, is black, you still cannot change the basic perception and the logic of behavior. In other words, these people, uh, uh, the process of demoralization is complete and irreversible. To get rid society of these people, you have... You need another twenty or, or, or fifteen years to educate a new generation of patriotically-minded and, and, and, uh, common, common sense people who would be acting in favor and in the interests of, of the, uh, of the United States society.

Joe Rogan 1:54:03 And yet these people who've been programmed and, as you say, in place-

Speaker 1:54:07 Yes

Joe Rogan 1:54:07 ... who are favorable to an opening with the Soviet concept-

Speaker 1:54:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:54:11 - these are the very people who would be marked for extermination in this country?

Speaker 1:54:14 Most of them, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:54:15 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:54:15 Uh, uh, simply because the psychological shock when, when they will see in future what the, what the beautiful society of equality and social justice means in practice, obviously they will revolt. They, they, they will, uh, they, they will be very unhappy, frustrated people, and the Marxist-Leninist regime does not tolerate these people. Uh, they- obviously, they will join the links of dissenters-

Joe Rogan 1:54:42 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:54:42 ... dissidents.

Joe Rogan 1:54:43 Yeah.

Speaker 1:54:44 Uh, unlike in present United States, there will be no place for dissent in, in future Marxist-Leninist America. Uh, here you can, you can get, uh, popular, like, uh, Daniel Ellsberg, and filthy rich, like Jane Fonda, for being dissident, for criticizing your Pentagon. In future, these people will be simply [mouth clicks] squashed like cockroaches. Nobody is going to pay them nothing for their beautiful, noble ideas of equality. This they don't understand, and, uh, it will be greatest shock for them, of course. The demoralization process in the United States is basically completed already, uh, for the last twenty-five years. Actually, it's overfulfilled because, uh, uh, demoralization now reaches such areas where previously not even Comrade Andropov and, and all his experts would, would even dream of such a tremendous success. Most of it is done by Americans to Americans, thanks to lack of moral standards. As I mentioned before, uh, exposure to true information does not matter anymore. A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell nothing to him. Uh, even if I shower him with information, with, with authentic proof, with documents, with pictures, even if I take him by force to the Soviet Union and show him concentration camp, he will refuse to believe it until he, he's going to receive a kick in the, in his fat bottom. When a military boot crashes his, then he will understand, but not before that. That's the tragic of the situation of demoralization.

Andrew Doyle 1:56:26 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:56:26 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:56:27 So, so-

Joe Rogan 1:56:27 Pretty fucking accurate.

Andrew Doyle 1:56:28 Well, he's describing the situation as it is at the moment, right?

Joe Rogan 1:56:30 And he's describing it in 1984.

Andrew Doyle 1:56:32 However, that doesn't prove that what he's des- that intention to create that kind of chaos, that it was, uh, implemented and executed in the way that he describes. He's described the outcome-

Joe Rogan 1:56:41 He's a KGB agent.

Andrew Doyle 1:56:43 Yeah, but-... I suppose what I mean by that is-

Joe Rogan 1:56:45 He's talk- he's talking about a program that they implemented.

Andrew Doyle 1:56:47 So they had actual people in universities, planted in universities, to deliberately execute this idea?

Joe Rogan 1:56:52 Yeah, and they-

Andrew Doyle 1:56:53 But-

Joe Rogan 1:56:53 ... planned it in advance. This is what he was saying, and he's saying this before we even realized-

Andrew Doyle 1:56:58 I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:56:58 ... that it happened.

Andrew Doyle 1:56:59 I agree, that's scary.

Joe Rogan 1:57:00 Now... It is scary because it did happen.

Andrew Doyle 1:57:02 But what- but, but that doesn't fully explain why it caught on. Why did academics, who were clearly not plants, why did they catch on with this stuff? And it-

Joe Rogan 1:57:09 Well, they don't live in the fucking real world.

Andrew Doyle 1:57:11 But [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:57:11 This is the problem with academics: they go right from universities to teaching positions.

Andrew Doyle 1:57:16 I mean, th- this whole-

Joe Rogan 1:57:17 They don't have any real-world experience.

Andrew Doyle 1:57:18 I mean, this whole idea of the long march through the institutions, it's there in Rote Do- Deutsche. It's there, it's... It was said, "We're gonna do this. We're gonna infiltrate the major organizations, institutions, the church-

Joe Rogan 1:57:28 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 1:57:28 ... We're going to, uh, over a very long period of time, uh, change society for the, in the way that we want to see it."

Joe Rogan 1:57:35 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:57:35 I think what's happened is, I think that intention was there. I think what he's saying is very eerily describing what's happening now, the demoralization and the detachment from truth.

Joe Rogan 1:57:43 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Doyle 1:57:44 But I don't think it necessarily came about as systematically as that. I think-

Joe Rogan 1:57:47 How do you think it came about?

Andrew Doyle 1:57:49 I think... Well, for one thing, I think what we're facing now isn't quite the template that Marx would have had in mind, right? Because, for one thing, uh, there's no emphasis on class or money or the economy or, or anything-

Joe Rogan 1:58:01 What?

Andrew Doyle 1:58:01 Well, insofar as Marxism has become about group identity, in terms of the left-

Joe Rogan 1:58:05 Right

Andrew Doyle 1:58:05 ... have substituted-

Joe Rogan 1:58:06 But "eat the rich" is a giant mantra-

Andrew Doyle 1:58:08 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:58:08 ... that people-

Andrew Doyle 1:58:08 That's true

Joe Rogan 1:58:09 ... chant in the streets.

Andrew Doyle 1:58:10 That's true. That's true.

Joe Rogan 1:58:11 They're trying to tax billionaires. Their people are-

Andrew Doyle 1:58:13 But it's incoherent because it's from people who've got money. It's from the upper-

Joe Rogan 1:58:16 But-

Andrew Doyle 1:58:16 ... middle classes. It's, it's-

Joe Rogan 1:58:17 It doesn't have to be coherent.

Andrew Doyle 1:58:18 [chuckles] No, no.

Joe Rogan 1:58:19 It's, it's all just something that, a narrative that you give the unwashed masses, and then they run with it.

Andrew Doyle 1:58:25 Well, I wonder whether it caught on partly through what became fashionable, what became trendy, but also because any ideology says to you, "You don't have to do any thinking anymore. You can outsource us to what- that to us."

Joe Rogan 1:58:35 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:58:35 "We've got a set of rules-

Joe Rogan 1:58:36 Right

Andrew Doyle 1:58:37 ... and these are the rules that you've got." It's why-

Joe Rogan 1:58:38 People love that.

Andrew Doyle 1:58:39 Well, it's why you've got people who are... Well, it's why you've got Queers for Palestine.

Joe Rogan 1:58:42 Right. [chuckles]

Andrew Doyle 1:58:43 You know, that can only exist when you're following a set of rules and not thinking about it-

Joe Rogan 1:58:46 Mm-hmm

Andrew Doyle 1:58:46 ... for two seconds, right? That group-

Joe Rogan 1:58:47 Yeah, that's a wonderful group. [chuckles]

Andrew Doyle 1:58:49 That... I, I actually thought that was fake when I first heard about it, which must be about five years ago.

Joe Rogan 1:58:53 You've seen the other meme?

Andrew Doyle 1:58:54 I, I thought it was unreal.

Joe Rogan 1:58:55 Have you seen that v- meme?

Andrew Doyle 1:58:56 Which one?

Joe Rogan 1:58:57 Queers for Palestine, and then Palestine for Queers?

Andrew Doyle 1:58:59 Oh, and I imagine-

Joe Rogan 1:59:00 And they're throwing people off roofs.

Andrew Doyle 1:59:01 Of course they are.

Joe Rogan 1:59:02 [chuckles]

Andrew Doyle 1:59:02 Of course they are. I just say go and do... Go, go, go there, and see what you, see what you see.

Joe Rogan 1:59:08 Right.

Andrew Doyle 1:59:08 See what you experience.

Joe Rogan 1:59:09 Go there as a man in a dress, wearing lipstick with a beard. Good luck.

Andrew Doyle 1:59:12 Yeah, I just did a, Tatania tweet of a drag queen touring the Middle East, and she's, you know, she's touring all these venues, and, and she's got this sort of the Palestine dress-

Joe Rogan 1:59:20 [chuckles]

Andrew Doyle 1:59:21 ... and then the sort of the, the glam kind of Arabic look. [chuckles] And it's like, just, just go there and see what happens.

Joe Rogan 1:59:28 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 1:59:28 But that, that kind of cognitive dissonance can only work if you are-

Joe Rogan 1:59:32 Right

Andrew Doyle 1:59:32 ... if you are, uh, ideologically driven. And I think... So I, I suppose what I mean is, I think the appeal of ideology is what, is what explains... Not a kind of, "We've implant- implanted these agents here. They're gonna lead to this. They're gonna lead to this." It has to also be complicity-

Joe Rogan 1:59:48 Of course

Andrew Doyle 1:59:49 ... from a, from a-

Joe Rogan 1:59:49 But that comes from implanting ideas.

Andrew Doyle 1:59:52 But isn't it-

Joe Rogan 1:59:52 Those ideas take hold, and then groupthink takes it from there.

Andrew Doyle 1:59:55 But isn't it a shame that the, at universities of all places, the place where you go to be challenged, and the way-

Joe Rogan 2:00:00 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 2:00:00 ... the place where you go... I mean, I was thinking about it when I was at Berkeley, and I, you know, I was sitting on the stage, and there's all these men with guns all around the theatre because, of course, what happened with Charlie.

Joe Rogan 2:00:08 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Doyle 2:00:09 And I'm thinking, it's like the end of the Blues Brothers, you know, where you're on stage, and all the people are waiting in the w- It felt weird, and I thought, "This is not, this is not what a university is or should be." And the other thing that I thought is, a lot of those people outside protesting weren't students. They'd, they'd sort of come in. They'd been bussed in. So maybe that feeds into what you were saying about, you know, s- this is all-

Joe Rogan 2:00:29 100%

Andrew Doyle 2:00:30 ... planned and-

Joe Rogan 2:00:31 How are they getting bussed in? Who's funding them?

Andrew Doyle 2:00:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 2:00:33 People are paying a lot of money to do that-

Andrew Doyle 2:00:36 Right

Joe Rogan 2:00:36 ... and they're doing it all over the country.

Andrew Doyle 2:00:38 To what end?

Joe Rogan 2:00:38 But they did it during the presidential elections.

Andrew Doyle 2:00:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:00:41 During the presidential elections, they were tracking cell phones from place to place-

Andrew Doyle 2:00:46 Right

Joe Rogan 2:00:47 ... and they realized that there was a group of people that were paid attendees at Kamala Harris's rallies.

Andrew Doyle 2:00:52 Oh yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:00:54 And so they were getting paid. Their job was to show up and cheer for Kamala Harris.

Andrew Doyle 2:00:58 Do you think fundamentally, then, the Democrats are anti-democratic?

Joe Rogan 2:01:02 I think fundamentally, anybody that doesn't have organic support is going to figure out a way, in this environment, to drum it up.

Andrew Doyle 2:01:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 2:01:12 And if you can do that through a service, or if you can do that through an NGO, or if you can do that through a company that'll hire people to show up at your rallies, they do it 'cause they wanna win, and they want to get into a position of power.

Andrew Doyle 2:01:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:01:25 And one of the things that we do find with Trump is that it actually turns out the president can do a lot.

Andrew Doyle 2:01:31 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:01:31 You know? And we used to think that they were kind of handcuffed, and they weren't able to do as much, and that's why nothing ever got done. Turns out that's, that doesn't seem to be true. You get a maniac in office, you can kind of get away with a lot of things.

Andrew Doyle 2:01:43 That's-

Joe Rogan 2:01:43 You can do a lot of different things.

Andrew Doyle 2:01:44 That's what we sort of need in the UK.

Joe Rogan 2:01:46 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Doyle 2:01:46 We, we need someone to come in and strip away... I mean, it-

Joe Rogan 2:01:48 But we need what Besmanoff was saying, is that we need to kind of... A whole generation that teaches that being patriotic and having morals and ethics is actually a good thing.

Andrew Doyle 2:02:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:02:00 And that free speech is important, and that to be able to debate ideas is essential to any sort of true society that considers itself an elevated-

Andrew Doyle 2:02:17 Absolutely

Joe Rogan 2:02:17 ... modern version of what we hoped for when this country was founded.

Andrew Doyle 2:02:22 Yeah. That's-

Joe Rogan 2:02:23 It wasn't founded on the idea that it's, y- you have to adhere to one ideology, and this ideology thinks that gender's not real, and n- no one can answer what a woman is. Like, that's crazy-

Andrew Doyle 2:02:35 Well, but-

Joe Rogan 2:02:35 ... that's become popular.

Andrew Doyle 2:02:36 What we see in America, like, America's the kind of liferaft of the world.

Joe Rogan 2:02:40 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 2:02:40 That you've got all these things built into your political system.

Joe Rogan 2:02:42 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 2:02:42 And that's why it's so scary when you see people... Do you remember the, um, vice presidential debate between JD Vance and Tim Walz, and-... Tim Walz said that, uh, uh, the First Amendment doesn't cover hate speech, it doesn't cover misinformation.

Joe Rogan 2:02:54 Exactly. Exactly.

Andrew Doyle 2:02:55 Um, it's, it-

Joe Rogan 2:02:56 He's a dangerous fuck, that guy.

Andrew Doyle 2:02:57 Like, that's scary. If, if the guy who might be-

Joe Rogan 2:02:59 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 2:02:59 ... vice president is saying, "Actually, we're gonna strip out all of this stuff," I mean-

Joe Rogan 2:03:04 Also, just the way he behaves is so odd. The way he waves and runs on stage, and it's all just so fake and performative.

Andrew Doyle 2:03:12 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:03:12 I don't know any men like that, that aren't dangerous.

Andrew Doyle 2:03:15 Why was he picked?

Joe Rogan 2:03:16 Probably because of the Minnesota stuff. It's pro-

Andrew Doyle 2:03:20 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:03:20 ... it probably had something to do with what he was allowing to happen in Minnesota.

Andrew Doyle 2:03:23 Well, he'd get money.

Joe Rogan 2:03:23 They were probably making a ton of money.

Andrew Doyle 2:03:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 2:03:25 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 2:03:25 Okay, okay. Maybe.

Joe Rogan 2:03:26 But the Min... Look, there's a reason why he had to resign. I mean, I'm clearly speculating. I have no idea, and I'm a moron when it comes to politics. But what I would ig- what I would assume-

Andrew Doyle 2:03:36 Mm

Joe Rogan 2:03:37 ... is that the... For sure, he was informed of this fraud-

Andrew Doyle 2:03:42 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:03:42 ... long in advance.

Andrew Doyle 2:03:43 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 2:03:43 If it wasn't for that Nick Shirley kid and those videos, and apparently Nick Shirley had been informed by the, the GOP there, that this was all going on. So this gets exposed, it gets into the public zeitgeist, it becomes a huge news story. It's not a coincidence that the riots break out in the exact same place where all this fraud is being exposed.

Andrew Doyle 2:04:02 Of course. Of course, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:04:02 Because ICE is everywhere.

Andrew Doyle 2:04:04 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:04:04 They're all over the place, but it's not... The, the most violent interactions are the interactions that are happening in the place where the most fraud has been publicly exposed.

Andrew Doyle 2:04:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:04:12 It's all, this is all by design.

Andrew Doyle 2:04:14 There's something very scary about it.

Joe Rogan 2:04:15 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 2:04:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:04:16 And so this guy knew about it in advance. How do we know? Well, one way we know is because he's resigning. Like, he, he's not-

Andrew Doyle 2:04:22 So there must be something.

Joe Rogan 2:04:23 Right, there's something.

Andrew Doyle 2:04:24 Right, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:04:24 He's not running for governor again. He was in the process of running for governor. He's decided to step out of public office entirely now.

Andrew Doyle 2:04:31 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:04:31 So maybe they told him, "If you do not step out, you are going to be prosecuted. We know what you did."

Andrew Doyle 2:04:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:04:37 Or maybe he's going to fucking turn state's evidence. Who fucking knows?

Andrew Doyle 2:04:41 Imagine if he'd have won, him and Kamala Harris-

Joe Rogan 2:04:43 Oh!

Andrew Doyle 2:04:43 ... if they would've been in charge. I mean, what-

Joe Rogan 2:04:44 God.

Andrew Doyle 2:04:45 I'm... I don't think I would've come here. [chuckles] I don't think I would've come here.

Joe Rogan 2:04:47 Well, what if Elon doesn't buy Twitter, and Kamala Harris wins, and Tim Walz is our vice president?

Andrew Doyle 2:04:52 Well, doesn't that just tell you how, how fragile-

Joe Rogan 2:04:54 Fragile

Andrew Doyle 2:04:54 ... freedom is?

Joe Rogan 2:04:55 Fragile.

Andrew Doyle 2:04:55 How, how close you are, like, to-

Joe Rogan 2:04:56 Very fragile, and that's why people support Donald Trump. And the people that think that they support him because he's a racist and all these different things, no, no, no. They support him 'cause he's an alternative to what we all saw coming.

Andrew Doyle 2:05:05 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 2:05:06 You know, no, no one's excited that ICE is killing people in the streets. No one, no one likes that.

Andrew Doyle 2:05:11 No, of course not.

Joe Rogan 2:05:11 You, you'd have to be fucking insane if you think those people should be just getting shot like that.

Andrew Doyle 2:05:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:05:16 That's nuts. But what they don't want is what the government was previously doing. They had a completely open border. They were f- bussing people into swing states. They were trying to pretend that this was all organic, and it's not.

Andrew Doyle 2:05:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:05:30 It's not. It's, it's a pl- they had a plan, and they did it in a sneaky way, where they looked like the really kind, ethical, equitable, and inclusive crowd.

Andrew Doyle 2:05:39 Right. Well, that's the woke story all over again.

Joe Rogan 2:05:40 Exactly.

Andrew Doyle 2:05:41 You know? [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 2:05:41 It was the woke stories applied to geopolitics. It was the woke stories applied to... The whole political process in this country was dependent upon the census, which the census doesn't count citizens, the census just counts humans.

Andrew Doyle 2:05:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:05:55 And so you get more congresh- congressional seats, you get more electoral points. The whole thing is nuts.

Andrew Doyle 2:06:00 I mean, I like to think that not all Democrats are into that.

Joe Rogan 2:06:02 No!

Andrew Doyle 2:06:03 Like, that not, not all Democrats are about the power for its own sake.

Joe Rogan 2:06:05 Of course not.

Andrew Doyle 2:06:05 You know, but-

Joe Rogan 2:06:06 But the problem is, it's a party. Like, if you work for a corporation, and you're a good person, but the corporation is promo- polluting a river in Guatemala-

Andrew Doyle 2:06:13 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 2:06:13 ... there's a diffusion of responsibility because you're a part of a giant system, and, "Hey, I'm just an accountant. I go to work, and I do my thing for Exxon or Mobil," or whatever it is.

Andrew Doyle 2:06:22 Yeah, yeah. Well, I'd say for however messy all of this has become in the US, at least you've had some sort of attempt to strip out the, the very stuff that that guy was talking about, the fact that the civil service is all one way-

Joe Rogan 2:06:33 Yes

Andrew Doyle 2:06:33 ... the fact that the machinery of government, that was the plan, right? So the machinery of government works in a certain way, so there's no democratic means of getting rid of it. There's no way to change it. You-

Joe Rogan 2:06:41 Well, I think the counter to that is the education that the internet provides, and that's where they didn't anticipate in 1984.

Andrew Doyle 2:06:49 Yes.

Joe Rogan 2:06:49 So the, the education that the internet provides is untethered.

Andrew Doyle 2:06:53 But then the internet tells us that, uh, Christopher Nolan's just made a film with a Black Helen of Troy.

Joe Rogan 2:06:57 Right.

Andrew Doyle 2:06:57 And he hasn't.

Joe Rogan 2:06:58 It all-

Andrew Doyle 2:06:58 Exa-

Joe Rogan 2:06:58 It produces all sorts of unsavory things, too.

Andrew Doyle 2:07:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:01 But it also allows the distribution of information that would be impossible through normal means if-

Andrew Doyle 2:07:08 Absolutely

Joe Rogan 2:07:08 ... these people are, as he said, in control of major media, which they were, in control of universities, which they are, and then it goes on to be the only way people get information. Now your information is very heavily filtered-

Andrew Doyle 2:07:20 Yes

Joe Rogan 2:07:20 ... and then all that stuff works.

Andrew Doyle 2:07:22 But that's why the technocrats in the EU, why ideologues generally are against internet, or-

Joe Rogan 2:07:28 Exactly

Andrew Doyle 2:07:28 ... they want to censor it.

Joe Rogan 2:07:29 That's why Macron is trying to stop X in, in-

Andrew Doyle 2:07:32 Did you hear, um-

Joe Rogan 2:07:32 ... France

Andrew Doyle 2:07:33 ... uh, uh-

Joe Rogan 2:07:33 Or whoever's trying to stop it.

Andrew Doyle 2:07:35 The, so the EU, the head of the EU Commission is Ursula von der Leyen. Did you hear her s-

Joe Rogan 2:07:39 Great name, by the way.

Andrew Doyle 2:07:40 Well, yeah, it's a, it's a sexy name, right?

Joe Rogan 2:07:41 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 2:07:42 [laughing] It's-

Joe Rogan 2:07:44 It's hot.

Andrew Doyle 2:07:44 She's unelected. The, the, the, the European Commission is an unelected body that sets the legislative agenda of all these European countries. Absolutely crazy. You can't vote them out. She did a speech-

Joe Rogan 2:07:54 [exhales]

Andrew Doyle 2:07:54 ... last May, where she said, and I'm not joking about this, she said that, um, uh, "misinformation was like a virus, and you need to inoculate yourself against the virus." And the phrase she used is, uh, not debunking, prebunking. So prebunking is her idea of what you do with misinformation. What she means is censorship.

Joe Rogan 2:08:11 [groans]

Andrew Doyle 2:08:12 She... But prebunking is the most sinister-

Joe Rogan 2:08:14 That's crazy

Andrew Doyle 2:08:15 ... chilly, like, if you were to say, "I'm gonna come up with the most Orwellian, sort of dark lord, [chuckles] kind of Sith-"

Joe Rogan 2:08:21 Prebunking.

Andrew Doyle 2:08:22 Prebunking.

Joe Rogan 2:08:23 Yeah, that's like fucking Minority Report, right?

Andrew Doyle 2:08:25 Like, I don't know what-

Joe Rogan 2:08:26 Pre-crime.

Andrew Doyle 2:08:26 I don't know what the... 'Cause I, I know that there's, there's this, uh, free speech debate opening up between the US and the, and the, and Europe generally. Like, you know, when JD Vance came over to Munich and gave that talk to all the European leaders and said, "You've got to stop censoring your people. You've got to stop running away from voters," and they were shocked.

Joe Rogan 2:08:42 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 2:08:42 And they were horrified, but he was dead right.

Joe Rogan 2:08:43 He's dead right.

Andrew Doyle 2:08:44 And he should- And you know what? People on the left should a- admit that he's dead right as well.

Joe Rogan 2:08:48 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 2:08:48 But there's something about Europe, right? There's something about... Like, I think over here, coming over here, I, I get the sense that even if most left-leaning people, as well as right-leaning people, do value free speech as a kind of shared value, and in Europe, it's not that. There, there's a real sense of, "We can't trust the masses."... 'cause I know that the EU is, is seen as this big lefty thing, which it absolutely is not. The EU is a body that wants to censor its citizens. It's a body that tells people: "You can have a referendum, but if you get it wrong, we're gonna make you vote again." It's not a democratic organization. So no wonder Vance is sort of, and Trump, is at, at loggerheads with this body, 'cause you've got these- We, in the UK, have a authoritarian leader, Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister.

Joe Rogan 2:09:30 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 2:09:31 He couldn't be further away from the American ideal of free speech. He introduced this Online Safety Bill, which is basically to- This is why a lot of tweets in the UK, if you go over to the UK now, a lot of the tweets will come up and say, "This is potentially harmful content, so we're screening it out." Uh, he... You know, they're trying to get rid of juries-

Joe Rogan 2:09:48 Yeah

Andrew Doyle 2:09:48 ... for certain trials.

Joe Rogan 2:09:49 They did get rid of juries.

Andrew Doyle 2:09:50 Right?

Joe Rogan 2:09:50 They already did.

Andrew Doyle 2:09:51 And that's particularly dangerous because some of those cases are, uh, for speech crime.

Joe Rogan 2:09:57 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Doyle 2:09:57 Right? So, uh, I'll give you an example. There was a Royal Marine called Jamie Michael, who had made a video just say, uh, saying, "We need to peacefully protest against the immigration issue." They took him to court, uh, for stirring up racial hatred, um, but the jury is what let him off. It was the jury that saved him.

Joe Rogan 2:10:14 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 2:10:14 In this new system, there wouldn't be a jury there-

Joe Rogan 2:10:17 Right

Andrew Doyle 2:10:17 ... and he would be in prison.

Joe Rogan 2:10:18 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 2:10:19 So-

Joe Rogan 2:10:19 And most certainly would be in prison.

Andrew Doyle 2:10:21 So I kind of feel like, well, and we've got Keir Starmer now for another three years. Every decision that he makes is about not trusting the public, censoring what they think. He could- if he could get rid of X, he absolutely would.

Joe Rogan 2:10:31 Is it possible that someone sensible could win in three years? Or is the system so deeply entwined in the ideology of the English people that it's just stuck?

Andrew Doyle 2:10:44 This is what I think about that. Uh, 'cause I, I look at America, and I think, in a way, you had your culture war election because of Trump, right?

Joe Rogan 2:10:50 Yeah.

Andrew Doyle 2:10:51 You know, I mean, a lot of people say the culture war doesn't matter. Of course, it does.

Joe Rogan 2:10:54 Of course, it matters.

Andrew Doyle 2:10:55 I mean, you- did you see about that, the, the, the advert that the GOP put out? You know, "Kamala Harris is for they/them, Trump is for you," that was the slogan.

Joe Rogan 2:11:02 Mm.

Andrew Doyle 2:11:03 It was about, um, the Democrats wanting to fund transgender surgery for prisoners. And Donald Trump's team had this advert, "Kamala Harris for they/them, Donald Trump is for you." That actuated a 2.7 shift in favour of Donald Trump among everyone who saw it.

Joe Rogan 2:11:18 Mm.

Andrew Doyle 2:11:18 It was a major success. That just shows that these issues, these cultural issues, people do care-

Joe Rogan 2:11:24 Oh, they care

Andrew Doyle 2:11:24 ... and people do vote. But you had a way in America to vote that stuff out through Trump, right?

Joe Rogan 2:11:29 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Doyle 2:11:29 We've, we've never had that. We've had-

Joe Rogan 2:11:31 But they barely had a way. Like, if they-

Andrew Doyle 2:11:33 They-

Joe Rogan 2:11:33 ... if they had more time, they wouldn't have.

Andrew Doyle 2:11:36 You mean that if the Democrats had clunk-

Joe Rogan 2:11:37 Yes.

Andrew Doyle 2:11:37 Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 2:11:38 If the Democrats won this time, and then they tried