EVERY SPOKEN WORD
130 min read · 25,709 words- 0:00 – 0:02
Intro
- SPSpeaker
[upbeat music]
- 0:02 – 1:27
Why write “The Stimulated Mind” and what “future-proofing” means
- SPSpeaker
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!
- TWTommy Wood
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- SPSpeaker
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music]
- JRJoe Rogan
All right. Nice to meet you, sir. Stimulated Mind: A Fut- Future-Proof Your Brain. Is that possible? Future- future-proof... Why can't I say that? I already, I already have dementia.
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
Future-proof your brain from dementia and stay sharp at any age. Um, what-- first of all, what prompted you to write this?
- TWTommy Wood
So I've spent a long time working in a whole range of different spheres related to the brain. Um, how to treat newborn brain injury, how to treat and maybe even prevent certain traumatic brain injuries and concussions. Looking at what affects long-term cognitive decline and dementia, as well as working with elite, uh, professional athletes, particularly Formula One drivers, trying to help them, you know, stay on top of their game for as long as possible. And I saw across all those different areas, there were these core things that the brain seems to thrive on that are required either for development or maintenance of cognitive function. And these are things that people can apply to themselves on a day-to-day basis, improve their focus, um, and well-being now, and then long term, that translates to a lower risk of dementia.
- 1:27 – 3:18
What dementia is, how common types differ, and how preventable it may be
- JRJoe Rogan
So i- is dementia an... Is a, is a gene-- is it a genetic thing, or is it a function of atrophy? Is it a combination of those things?
- TWTommy Wood
It's a combination of those things. Certainly, there's a genetic component, so maybe I will zoom out to start with and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay
- TWTommy Wood
... just think about, like, what is dementia? Dementia is the clinical diagnosis of losing so much cognitive function that you're not able to take care of yourself on a day-to-day basis. There are several different types of dementia. The most common is Alzheimer's disease. That's something like, uh, sixty to eighty percent of cases of dementia. The next most common is vascular dementia, something like ten to twenty percent. And then there are others, like frontotemporal dementia, Lewy body dementia, dementia you get with Parkinson's disease. But those first two, something like seventy to ninety percent of dementias, they are directly tied to lifestyle and the environment, and right now, it's estimated that somewhere between forty-five and maybe even seventy or more percent of dementias are preventable, and most of those fall into those two categories. There is a genetic component, so, uh, Alzheimer's disease has two broad types. There's early-onset Alzheimer's disease, that's caused by a single mutation in a single gene, something like the amyloid precursor protein gene or one of the presenilin genes. Those people get Alzheimer's in their thirties to fifties. It's a very, uh, predictable and quite rapid decline sometimes, but that's maybe one percent of Alzheimer's. The vast majority, like, when we think about Alzheimer's, we think about an age-related dementia, and this is much more related to the environment. So there is a genetic component. You might
- 3:18 – 5:52
Genes vs environment: APOE4, family history, and risk multipliers
- TWTommy Wood
have heard of APOE4.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TWTommy Wood
So you can have three different flavors of APOE, apolipoprotein E, uh, two, three, and four. You get two copies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is the one that makes you more, um, more likely to get CTE? Is that two?
- TWTommy Wood
Oh, no. So that's, that's, that's four as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's four as well?
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. So four, um, essentially has an effect of amplifying certain inflammatory effects, um, in the brain. That's probably why it makes CTE worse-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- TWTommy Wood
... makes it more likely for you to get CTE, 'cause if you're, if you're getting repetitive impacts, repetitive injuries, then it sort of exacerbates or makes that inflammatory response worse. Um, but when you, uh, think about that in terms of Alzheimer's, if you have one copy of, of APOE4, your increase-- your risk of Alzheimer's is increased by sort of two to six times. If you have two copies, it's six to twenty times, depending on how you look at it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow!
- TWTommy Wood
Um, but all the data suggest that APOE4 is a risk multiplier, right? So it's not that if you have a copy of APOE4, you're definitely gonna get, um, dementia. It's that in the setting, particularly of the modern environment, risks of dementia or risk factors for dementia are amplified, like excessive alcohol intake, uh, physical inactivity, low-quality diet. Um, so that also means that if you have, um, if you, if you then address those risk factors, you have greater benefit, right? Because you're offsetting some of that additional risk. So however you look at dementia from a genetic standpoint, and it can also be family history, right? If you have a family history of dementia, you have an increased risk of dementia. But a lot of what comes with family history is shared environment and shared lifestyle, right? You eat and sleep and move like your parents did. And so if they had a lifestyle that might increase their risk of dementia, you get that as well. So even if you do have an increased genetic risk, you can offset a large part of that through lifestyle and other environmental factors.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, so for some people, there's an increased genetic risk, but do some people who do not have this increased genetic risk, do they still have a possibility of getting dementia just from atrophy or just from sedentary lifestyle, no stimulation whatsoever?
- TWTommy Wood
Yes. So the, the kind of the way we would say it is that not everybody who has APOE4 gets Alzheimer's, and most people who have Alzheimer's do not have APOE4.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- TWTommy Wood
So, absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, so is it just like everything else? Like your muscles atrophy, your bones weaken when you don't put load on them. Is that what it is?
- 5:52 – 8:20
“Overstimulated and under-stimulated”: the use-it-or-lose-it brain thesis
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. So that's, like, the core thesis of my book, right? It's called The Stimulated Mind-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm
- TWTommy Wood
... um, for that reason. I think that in the-... and the, and the title is slightly provocative, 'cause in the modern world, we are-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hyperstimulated.
- TWTommy Wood
Overstimulated, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
With nonsense.
- TWTommy Wood
Exactly. So we're overstimulated and under-stimulated at the same time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. We're getting a lot of input, but we're not doing any calculations.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
We're not formulating new ideas, we're not being creative, we're not problem-solving.
- TWTommy Wood
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
We're just being inundated with nonsense.
- TWTommy Wood
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TWTommy Wood
So the, the function of any tissue in the body, right? You mentioned the muscles, the bones, the liver, the immune system, their function is, uh, dependent on the stimulus you apply to them, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
And so the brain is exactly the same. And if you want functions and networks in the brain to func- to perform well, you need to challenge them in order to enhance capacity in them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think you need to keep your liver working healthy by drinking every now and then? [laughing]
- TWTommy Wood
[laughing] So, um, the- it, it's the example of, yes, if you drink a lot of alcohol, your, your liver gets better at metabolizing alcohol.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
So it kind of, it proves the point, but that doesn't necessarily mean that- [laughing]
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughing]
- TWTommy Wood
... the, the alcohol is, is there to keep your liver healthy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, didn't-
- TWTommy Wood
Probably not.
- JRJoe Rogan
Didn't they used to do that with people that had, uh, if they had lung problems, they would give them cigarettes?
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like people with asthma?
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah, yeah. And th- that didn't turn out so great. [laughing]
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughing]
- 8:20 – 10:35
AI, LLMs, and cognitive offloading: when tools shrink skills vs expand them
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, this is a constant state today. And then on top of that, you've got a lot of people that are y- using AI throughout their day to solve all their problems, where they don't think at all.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And there's been some studies on that, that show that it's a decrease in cognitive function. Like, when they ask them to actually use their brain, the brain works less well-
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... than it did before they started. So you're not getting educated by ChatGPT-
- TWTommy Wood
No
- JRJoe Rogan
... or any of these. What you're doing is you're letting it think for you.
- TWTommy Wood
Absolutely. So this one, well, maybe one of the studies you're thinking of was a study they did at MIT, and they had students write essays, and they could either just write it using whatever they had in their head already, or using Google, or using an LLM. And what they showed was that, as you increase the amount of, like, outside support you got, you know, Google and then I think it was ChatGPT, then there was less activity in the brain networks associated with actually doing the task, and students remembered less well afterwards. So I mean, this isn't surprising.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not at all.
- TWTommy Wood
You're not using your brain, therefore-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- TWTommy Wood
... it do- it doesn't engage in the task. But what's interesting is that they, they found a version. This, so like, some of the students who had previously written the t- written, written an essay just for themselves, then they asked them to go back and use ChatGPT on top, and what they found was that the final output was better. So the way that we can use these tools, rather than just asking it to do all the stuff for us, which is what most people are doing, and I think will cause skills and maybe even parts of the brain to atrophy because they're not being used, is we use them as orthotics. Like, they can expand our capacities, right? You try writing it all first, and then you say, "Hey, what did I miss? W- what am I not thinking about?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
And you can kind of build on it from there.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that might perhaps actually stimulate your mind-
- TWTommy Wood
Exactly
- JRJoe Rogan
... to think, "Why didn't I think of that?"
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, "Next time I'm writing a paragraph, I'll consider these options."
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah, exactly. So you actually have to en- like, fully engage your brain in that process.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TWTommy Wood
But then they might res- you might-- the end result might be better.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, the, it's just such uncharted territory for us.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- 10:35 – 14:39
Social media algorithms, PRIME incentives, and isolation disguised as connection
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? All this, the-- especially social media. I mean, completely uncharted territory, that people are staring at their hand for eight hours a day.
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, that's really what you're doing.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're staring at your hand, and you're hoping, uh, usually unsuccessfully-
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
... to get something that really excites you.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And something that's really unique and, and changes your perspective on things. I mean, I think maybe when I was using social media every day, maybe once a day I would get something that I was really interested in, that I would save.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'd go, "Oh, that's actually interesting." And I would think, "Okay, that'd be a good subject to bring up on the podcast." But the rest of the time, it was just horseshit.
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles] Well, part of the algorithm, and this... You know, I'm not an expert in training algorithms to do this, but part of the, the, the goal of the algorithm is that you don't get everything that is perfect or that will, that immediately captures your attention upfront, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TWTommy Wood
Because you want it to be random. And there's a, like, method in the randomness that keeps you scrolling.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
Because eventually y- you- you'll get those small bumps that then, that then keep, that keep, keep you going. But what's particularly interesting about social media is it leverages the fact that we are social beings. So we prioritize information that is called, we, uh, the acronym is PRIME: prestigious, in-group, moral, and emotional. And this is even greater in social contexts, right? 'Cause we are trying to learn about our social environment so that we can survive our group and be fitter. And so social media makes us think that we will get that information-... whilst at the same time offering us the exact opposite, which is essentially isolation. Uh, but it leverages that desire of the human brain to find this social information and this social connection, whilst not giving us any of that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ugh! Also, without it getting any feedback from another human being while you're communicating ideas.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you could say the most horrible shit to people in a comment or a text message, and you don't think about it because it's like there's not a person there.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not right in front of you.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's designed for like, it's like an anti-human device.
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
Very weird.
- TWTommy Wood
But, I mean, if, if your goal is to capture attention-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- TWTommy Wood
... they're doing a great job of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, not just that, they're acquiring enormous wealth, and also enormous influence over the, just all sorts of things: politics, economics.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- 14:39 – 19:39
Building “cognitive headroom”: new skills, creative arts, and why failure drives learning
- TWTommy Wood
That's, that's, that's, that's fine. Um, but when you think about future-proofing your brain, this, this idea that there is some unknowable future, right? We don't know what the future's gonna look like, but if we want to exist in that future, we're going to need, um, good processing speed, good decision-making skills, good working memory, good, um, emotional and socials, and social skills, right? And so, in order to maintain those, we need to challenge and stimulate them. So the-- I think the most important thing most people can do is think about new, challenging, and often creative skills, and there's a lot of, um, evidence for creative arts, music. What, what they do is they improve the function of networks in the brain that are, um, at risk during the processes of aging, uh, particularly because they're important for attention and social connection. And so if we really invest time in doing these things that we suck at and get better at, but get, get better at them, we maintain these broad cognitive skills that we're gonna need in the future, regardless of, of what happens. And some of that is also personal. So I... Like, the goal is to build as much cognitive capacity a- as possible, right? I have this idea of headroom, which is the difference between h- what you, what you need on a day-to-day basis versus what you're truly capable of.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- TWTommy Wood
It's, it's the difference between, like, on a day-to-day basis, your legs need to be strong enough to, like, get you up off the toilet, right? But your maximum capacity is, like, what's your max back squat? The, the difference between those is your headroom.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- TWTommy Wood
And then that gives you capacity to perform when you're injured or sick, or you need to, like, lift your car off your buddy 'cause it got flipped in a car accident. Like, all those things. Like, when you need to draw on greater resources, you want those resources to be there. Because we are gonna be stressed, sleep-deprived, sick, and we still want our brains to function. So investing in, like, really challenging, uh, tasks and skills builds that capacity so that we have access to it when we need it.
- JRJoe Rogan
What, what is the function, and, like, what, what, what is the effect on the brain when you learn a new skill, like sucking at something?
- TWTommy Wood
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which I always tell people is one of the best things you can do.
- TWTommy Wood
Hundred percent.
- JRJoe Rogan
A lot of people don't enjoy it-
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
... because their ego, they don't like being frustrated that they're terrible at something.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But there's something about not being good at something and dedicating yourself to it, and, and seeing marked improvement, that stimulates all sorts of areas of your mind-
- TWTommy Wood
Uh-huh
- JRJoe Rogan
... which I find-
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... really interesting.
- TWTommy Wood
So most people don't realize that the process of learning, which i- in itself is like the core process of neuroplasticity, right? The, the brain making new connections and cementing new connections. That whole process is driven by failure, essentially, and making mistakes, because your brain is a prediction machine. It's constantly predicting what's gonna happen next based on, you know, the world around you and what you're trying to do. And so imagine that you're trying to, um, do some kind of new move in jujitsu or something, and you have no idea how to do it. You're, you're gonna try it, and there's gonna be this big gap between your expectation and reality. That's gonna be frustrating, right? That's the feeling of failure. But that's what diverts resources in the brain to say, "Hey, we need to close the gap between what we hoped would happen and what actually happened."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- TWTommy Wood
And that's what drives neuroplasticity, and this is also then what drives the cementing and function of these networks in the brain associated with that.... So the idea that you, you start sucking at something, and you get better at it over time, that is exactly the thing that the brain needs in order to improve, um, and maintain its function.
- JRJoe Rogan
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- 19:39 – 24:31
How many skills at once? Range, expertise, and choosing what you’ll stick with
- JRJoe Rogan
How many of those things should you take on at once, though? This is my issue.
- TWTommy Wood
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
I, I have a problem-- I, I wish I could have four lives-
- TWTommy Wood
[laughing]
- JRJoe Rogan
-that I could run simultaneously. I would do four-- I'd have four different occupations.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So I try to smash as many things into a day as possible. But there's many times where I think, "Boy, I think I'm doing too many different things that I'm trying to get good at-"
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"-and maybe it would be better if I just concentrated on one."
- TWTommy Wood
So there's a few different ways to look at this. I think that a broad base and a broad range of different skills is probably something that we should all hope to have.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like talent stacking.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. Yeah, exactly, and if you think about, um... Like, one of my favorite books is Range by David Epstein, which s- which talks about the broad range of skills that people who then really success it, uh, really succeed in academia or sports have, right? They didn't, um, specialize really early. They had, like, a broad base of talents that they can then draw upon as they, as they-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm
- TWTommy Wood
... specialize later in life, and I think that's something that we can all aspire to. But equally, um, what's probably more common is that we try something, and we do it for a little while, and then we just kinda, like, give up on it, and we try something else. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- TWTommy Wood
... there's, there's, like, a little bit of benefit to that. But when you look at some of the studies that, um, uh, really examine the effect of learning some of these creative skills, and they've done it with tango dancers, and, uh, painters, and video gamers. When you s- when you, when you compare an expert to an amateur, [clears throat] um, and where you're seeing the benefits of expertise in terms of the function of some of these networks in the brain, it really is the development of some level of expertise, it, it is probably required to see the maximum benefit. Obviously, the learning curve is steepest at the, at the beginning, right? Right when you're lear- beginning to learn something, that's when you'll learn the fastest. But there, there is also some benefit to expertise. So some of that, like, just to say that, pick one or two things that you're actually excited to continue getting better at for a long period of time. And so then maybe you do have to, like, try, like, try a bunch of different things until you find the thing that, like, really, like, gets you going. But across all those different skills, they have similar core effects on the brain. So you don't have to do one or both. You can just, uh, pick the one that you enjoy the most.
- JRJoe Rogan
So it's just about the struggle of trying to get better at something-
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... essentially.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And, um, my wife is learning a new language right now, and, uh, she's, she's been so excited about it.
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's like, it's really interesting 'cause she starts talking around the house in French, and, uh, and it's o- one of those things where you're like, I was... I'm watching her do it. She wasn't doing it, and then she's been doing it over the last couple of months, and I'm seeing this, like, excitement-
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
-and this, like, new project. And we were talking about it, about how that is one of the things that's very difficult to do, but it's, it's more complex than learning because it's learning and interacting.
- TWTommy Wood
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's not just learning. You're learning, but you have to, y- it requires, like, this back and forth with another person.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You have to l- understand sentence structure. You have to... It's just like com- and especially French is so different than English. There's so, there's so much weird shit involved in it, but you could see, like, I could see in her that, like, this is st- very stimulating-
- TWTommy Wood
Mm
- 24:31 – 27:59
Why cognitive decline looks ‘normal’: work routines, reduced challenge, and activity parallels
- TWTommy Wood
... I think that, that thing you describe i- is so baked into our society that we've started to believe that it's normal.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
So when you look at the trajectory of cognitive function over the li-- o- over, like, your entire life, imagine like a graph, where on the one side you have cognitive function, and it could be something basic like processing speed. How quickly do you, does your brain process information? On the bottom is age, right? I- it tends to peak sometime around our sort of mid-twenties to early thirties. Um, it's usually the peak, on average, tends to be higher and later, the more time we spend in edu- education. So the more time we spend essentially as professional learners, the more we can build that kind of final capacity. After that, it's just sort of like, uh, an average decrease downwards. And, uh, a, a colleague of, uh, mine, Josh Chuck and I, he's a neurologist, we wrote a paper a couple, a couple of years ago where we theorized that the reason why we see that decline, uh, in, at the population level, in cognitive function from about that age, is because we go to work, we do the same thing again and again and again. Um, and then everything else in our life gets in the way, um, and we never spend that same time investing in building our cognitive capacities the way we did when we were kids and when we were in school. And so the decline is j-- partly because we just stop doing that. So the part-- you know, one of the theories of aging is that it's just a continuation of development, like processes of development. And most of the processes of development in the brain are, uh, refining connections based on the environment and the stimulus the brain receives. So if you start removing stimuli because you're no longer engaging in these, like, cognitively challenging things, the brain's gonna start removing connections. "Hey, I don't need that," right? "I'm not, I'm not using this part of my brain." And as a result, um, you start to see decline. And so there are studies that show if you have cog-- if you have a very stimulating job, it's very complex, problem-solving skills, uh, lots of social interactions, you have a slower rate of cognitive decline as an adult and a, and a lower risk of dementia. You see, um, in individuals who, uh, continue to engage in reading, wri-- uh, reading, writing, lectures, dancing, you know, a whole bunch of hobbies, again, you see a slowed rate of decline. So some of what we just expect to happen with age is because of the way we in- we, we stop engaging with the world, and we stop challenging ourselves.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it completely makes sense, right? Like, if you think about physical activity, it, it goes along the same kind of path.
- TWTommy Wood
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
You see... Uh, I, I have friends, I'm fifty-eight, which is crazy to say.
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
It sounds so old. Um, but I have friends that are fifty-eight that are basically det- they're skeletons with, like, meat hanging-
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
-around various parts of it. But my physical ability is very similar to what it was when I was in my thirties. The only way that I could really test it is, like, physical competition, and I'm not really interested in that.
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't want to get hurt. But my ca- capacity for work is very similar.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I know that because I force it.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, I, I make myself do it, and I would imagine the same thing is true with, with the mind. I mean, it has to be. I think it's all together.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a use it or lose it.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- 27:59 – 34:53
ADHD, stimulants, and the role of movement in regulating attention
- JRJoe Rogan
And if your mind doesn't have a, a need to be constantly intrigued and stimulated-- like, you gotta think for survival, right? One of the things that's speculated, and maybe I can ask you about this, 'cause this is one of... I, I think about this a lot, like, what is ADHD? And I-- whether or not it's actually a problem, uh, I think it's a superpower-
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
-because I'm pretty sure I have it.
- TWTommy Wood
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, but yet I can foc-- I'm very functional. I can focus on things, and as long as I tire myself out from activity, um, I can relax-
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... and I can concentrate on things, and I'm, I'm very interested in certain things, and I can lock into them and concentrate. But if, if I was forced to be in a classroom with a very boring teacher-
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
-teaching a subject I'm not that interested in, and I was a child, uh, if I had the wrong parents, luckily, I didn't, I would be medicated.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? But I think that that is this ability to focus on certain things, like hyperfocus, was probably a function of a persistent hunter.
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? Because if you wanted to catch an animal, you couldn't be a person that gives up quick. You had to be a person that you, you keep looking for tracks, you keep trying to find sign, you're trying to figure out a way, like, "I've got to keep pushing one more hour. We got twenty minutes of s- daylight left. I've got to figure this out." Right? You, you, that thing had to be in you in order to be a successful hunter.
- TWTommy Wood
So, um, I'm sure that that's, that's part of it. The, the current picture of ADHD, I think, is, is quite complicated. So I have family members with ADHD. When they, um, then started on medication, they were like, "Oh, actually, all of a sudden, my brain works," right? So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right-
- TWTommy Wood
But-
- JRJoe Rogan
... but that medication is Adderall, right? If I took Adderall, I would say the same fucking thing.
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't need a stimulant.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But if I took a stimulant right now, I'd be like, "Dude, I am so much better!"
- TWTommy Wood
So, no, but, but you know what happens in, in certain individuals with ADHD, when you give them stimulants-
- JRJoe Rogan
They calm down.
- TWTommy Wood
They, they calm down. Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
So I think there's a combination of multiple things. Some is, um, yes, like, these can be very, uh, beneficial traits in, in the right settings, but you also have to consider that we're layering on, um, a modern environment that's like bright lights at night, a whole bunch of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- TWTommy Wood
... caffeine and stimulants, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TWTommy Wood
And yeah, of course, some of it is, I think, um, a-... right, the teacher is boring, and they're like, they're just not engaged because, uh, you know, the majority of people with ADHD can still focus, right, on things that they're interested in focusing in.
- 34:53 – 40:56
Behavior change isn’t just “willpower”: barriers, support, and designing systems that help
- TWTommy Wood
Um, so I think that all kids should absolutely get, uh, you know, several hours, ideally, of, of movement and physical activity of different kinds every day. Um, part of the problem, it's not that scientists or doctors don't think that is im- that's important. Right now, the systems that we have make it very difficult for those things, uh, to be, to be put in place, right? So making sure that every kid has the time and the resources to be able to exercise and, like, the, the right kind of people so that they know what they're doing, and they're, they're supervised. Um, and, you know, it's the same with, uh, s- say with testosterone replacement, if your, if your testosterone is low. Like, most p- right, the, the primary cause or one of the most common causes of, of low testosterone in men is, right, that combination of metabolic disease, being sedentary, poor-quality diet. Like, we know that. But creating the systems that allow people to change those things and then supporting them to do that is really hard. Nobody, nobody has solved the behavior change problem, right? If we think about, if we think about the modern environment, um, and we think about what that drives us to do and not do, but we kn- we, we have all this information, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
We know how to prevent these diseases. We know how to reverse many of them, and a lot of it is driven by lifestyle and the environment. But supporting people to change those behaviors and make sure they have the resources and time to do it, that's really hard. Like, nobody's solved that problem yet.
- JRJoe Rogan
Boy, that seems like a problem that's easy to solve.... it's just based on personal responsibility.
- TWTommy Wood
No, but it's not.
- JRJoe Rogan
But if you can tell someone, "This is your requirement for the day. I want you to run one mile-
- TWTommy Wood
But how are you- [chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
... I want you to do 100 push-ups and 100 sit-ups, and write it down."
- TWTommy Wood
But how are you-- So first of all, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
But you're saying some- you're saying it like it's impossible-
- TWTommy Wood
I'm not saying-
- JRJoe Rogan
-or very, very difficult.
- TWTommy Wood
I'm not saying it's, I'm not saying it's impossible. I think that those of us for whom this has become a part of our personality and our, and our lives, like, like you and me, of course, it's make-- Like, of course, you just do that. Like, you just go for the run, you do the 100 push-ups.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
But for people who, like, have never had anything like this, and it's never been a part of their environment, it's never been a part of who they are, changing that actually requires a ton of work, um, and coaching, and it's actually, it's actually really difficult. And when I, when I say-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's difficult, but it's totally doable physically. It's not like I'm asking you to breathe underwater.
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, people have done it, and you can draw inspiration from... Like, my friend Jelly Roll.
- TWTommy Wood
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know Jelly Roll, the musician?
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Jelly Roll was 500 pounds.
- TWTommy Wood
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he's lost 300 pounds, and he did it with no Ozempic, no GLP-1s. He just started walking and started cutting sugar out of his diet, and slowly but sure- not even slowly, over the course of just a couple of years, he shrunk to, like, a normal-sized human. It's fucking amazing. But he drew inspiration from a lot of other people. You know, one of them, he's, he's good friends with my good friend Cam Haynes-
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... who's a ultramarathon runner-
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... and endurance athlete, and so, you know, he's taken him on runs and worked out with him and helped him, and just watching YouTube videos, and just all he started doing was just walking. You know, where he couldn't walk up hills, and he would just walk around his block and walk up the hill when he didn't want to do it, and he did it. It's like, it's not... It, you can do it. You just have to start doing it, and I think the starting doing it is the most difficult. I don't think it's difficult to do it once you gather momentum, 'cause there's a, there's a thing that happens with people when they start doing something, they get excited, and then they look forward to doing it again. As long as you don't like, you don't take a guy who's 500 pounds and say, "Today, we're gonna do 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, we're gonna do kettlebells, and then we're gonna do laps around the-
- TWTommy Wood
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... the block." You can't do it. It's not possible.
- 40:56 – 54:01
Practical public-health ideas: education, cooking skills, community programs, and public gyms
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, so let's consider the societal aspect of it.
- TWTommy Wood
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's consider the... Like, how would you implement something-- Like, let's, let's imagine that you get appointed to some committee that's in charge of try- trying to facilitate this-
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... growth and improvement in people. What would you do?
- TWTommy Wood
So I think you need, um, a few, uh, a few different parts to it. One, uh, great part would be, so say through, you know, if you could dramatically improve quality and access of, like, education at all levels and make physical activity just be a regular part of that. That has been slowly removed from many educational curriculums around the world-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- TWTommy Wood
... over, over time, right? So bring some of that back, and it just becomes part of day-to-day life. And then you would also teach people the skills involved in some of these, these other things. So, like, teach, teach people how, how to cook and, and how to do that within the bounds of what they have access to. Their, you know, cultural preferences, dietary preferences, you know, financial, you know, financial abilities, that kind of stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, that should be a part of a school curriculum.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah, abs-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- TWTommy Wood
... absolutely. Just like you should teach kids about taxes and all these-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- TWTommy Wood
... all these other things.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
And so I think if you start early on, and you do this with, um, sort of curiosity and, and skill building, then you release people out into the w- you know, that, that, that, I think that's, that's the place to start. Because when you get out into the real world, and you're working three jobs, and you live somewhere where you don't want to go for a walk outside, and, like, you can barely get six hours of sleep every night, and, you know, you've got three kids that you're trying to look after-... saying, "Oh, hey, you should do 100 push-ups every day," like, that's not gonna happen. Like, other things are gonna happen that, that are more important. Um, so, so I think there's that part, maybe the, the, the skill-building part. Then it's thinking about, like, how people have opportunities to do those things. Um, and then I would think about, you know, access to high-quality, um, you know, healthcare, psychological care, like these things that's- like, some- sometimes people need hel- help that they can't get access to, or it's expensive or whatever. Um, so I think giving more of that so that they get support when they need it, is definitely- would definitely help as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think one great way would be to devise a website, make, like, maybe like even a government website, where you, uh, put in, like, your body weight, when was your last physical activity, what this, that, the other thing, all, the w- what's your diet? And then they implement a program-
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and you could follow online with a bunch of other people that are doing the same thing-
- TWTommy Wood
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... and post your results.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you have a community aspect to it, you have a, a, a dedicated program that you can follow, so you don't have to think about, "Oh, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do this." Like, it'll just tell you, "Just do this. Just do this. Oh, you weigh 400 pounds, you're 39 years old, you haven't worked out in 10 years."
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Okay, here's, here's day one."
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And follow along, post your weight, post your, what you're eating. I mean, that... I mean, and, and with AI, I mean, that's one of the good things about an LLM, right? With AI, you could ask it to formulate adjustments.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you could say, "Okay, what nutrients should I be consuming? What- how much protein do I actually need? How much- how many calories do I need? How many calories are in this and that?" And, you know, how, what is a, uh... "How much protein do I get from, you know, 20 ounces of broccoli," or whatever the fuck it is. You know what I mean?
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. So when you look at some of the most successful trials of behavior change, and most of them are based around weight loss studies, right? That, that's, that's a very typical way to do it. Um, when you see- when, when you want somebody to change, um, their behavior and feel, feel good about it, um, one of the sort of, uh, constructs is self-determination theory. You've probably heard of, right? Humans need three things: autonomy, um, competence, and relatedness. So autonomy is the f- like, "I am in charge of my life, and I'm in charge of my decisions. So what are the things that I want to work on today," right? I have some choice there. Uh, competence, like, how do I help somebody feel like they know what they're doing? Like, a lot of the hurdles with, um, exercise or diet is, like, "I don't know what I'm doing. And, like, this guy says that I need to do sprints, and this guy says I need to lift weights, and this guy says I need to do X amounts of Zone 2, but I, like, what does that even mean?" Like-
- 54:01 – 59:42
Inside Formula 1 performance: coaching, data constraints, and prioritizing recovery over more stimulus
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, so that's for people... We're, we were just-- I mean, I'm glad we covered it, but we're essentially talking about people that don't know what to do.
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
For people who do know what to do, you said you work with a lot of Formula 1 athletes.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what do you do for, like, what is... Formula 1 is fascinating to me. I've been to the, um, the COTA racetrack.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
We're actually putting up a studio. We're gonna have a studio at COTA.
- TWTommy Wood
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
We're gonna have a second studio-
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... at the racetrack.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the idea is to take people around the racetrack. I think it would, like, stimulate their mind-
- TWTommy Wood
Uh-huh [chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
... and then come in and do a podcast.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It'd be a lot of fun.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? It'd be like, you'd be, like, racing.
- TWTommy Wood
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, your mind would be like, "Whoo!"
- TWTommy Wood
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, that is an incredible sport where it's fractions of a second, split-second decisions. Your ability to react has to be, like, incredibly fast. Like, have you ever seen the thing where they drop things-
- TWTommy Wood
Oh, yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... and they have to-
- TWTommy Wood
And they have to, like, grab them
- JRJoe Rogan
... Lewis Hamilton is, like, better at anybody, than anybody at it.
- TWTommy Wood
Oh, yeah, of course.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's just fucking [chuckles] -
- TWTommy Wood
Uh-huh
- 59:42 – 1:03:48
Jet lag playbook: light, exercise, caffeine, melatonin, and meal timing
- JRJoe Rogan
So let's talk about the jet lag aspect. What are the strategies for mitigating jet, jet lag? And, like, how do you... When, like, s- let's say if they fly in for a race-
- TWTommy Wood
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
-like, if they're going from Europe to the United States, and they have to race, how many days in advance do they arrive, and how do they shift their circadian rhythm and e- eliminate jet lag? What are the strategies?
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. Um, there's-- the, the, the time e- for them, like, the, the number of days they come before the race will, will depend on how long it was since the last race, plus what other things they've got going on. But they'll-- it's often, like, two or three days, right? They'll, they'll try and get it, get come in the beginning of the week, at least, like Monday, Tuesday, if the race is then gonna be on Sunday. And then, as much as possible, you might start to try and shift things earlier. So shift your light exposure so that it aligns more closely with your destination a couple of days before you travel. Uh, shift your sleep, if you can. Shift, um, exercise and caffeine timing. Again, because those things, um, shift circadian rhythm, so that, so you can kind of get closer to, to what, what you're gonna do when you land. Um, and so those are, those are the probably the primary tools is, um, exercise, light, caffeine. You can use, um, some of them use m- melatonin. Um, but-... you can also change, uh, when you eat. So like, um, food timing is a zeitgeber. It's a fancy word for, like, time giver, like, helps to drive circadian rhythm. So, um, often when you're f- when you're flying, they'll give you a meal that's happening, like, in the middle of the night in the time that you're gonna land, right? So often you might try and avoid eating while flying, and then have your next meal in time with, like, a normal meal timing when, when you land.
- JRJoe Rogan
I've heard that one of the things to help with jet lag is just eliminate meals when you're flying, period.
- TWTommy Wood
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
That there's something about eating, even if it doesn't have anything to do with the, the time zone.
- TWTommy Wood
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, say, if you're flying from Los Angeles to New York-
- TWTommy Wood
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... one way to eliminate jet lag, they say, is just to not eat on the flight.
- TWTommy Wood
So you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Six-hour flight-
- TWTommy Wood
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... don't eat at all.
- TWTommy Wood
Usually, uh, I think most of that is to do with circadian, circadian timing. Uh, because you're usually flying at a time when you wouldn't normally eat, or like, you're often, like, they give you dinner at, like, 9:00 pm or it's even midnight, right? So if you... See-
- JRJoe Rogan
But is that all it is? Because what- but the way it was explained to me-
- TWTommy Wood
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... is that just there's something about your body processing food when you're flying that actually exacerbates jet lag.
- TWTommy Wood
So I can't think of a, you know, other than the fact that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Does that make sense?
- TWTommy Wood
Other, other than the fact that, I mean, you're obviously, you know, sat still for long periods of time, which might not normally happen at that time of day as well. Um, I think the ma- the majority of it in terms- but certainly in terms of jet lag plans, is thinking about the timing of meals relative to circadian rhythm. Because you normally, you know, break your fast at, fast at a certain time of day, have dinner at a certain time of day. So I think most of it is related to circadian timing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. Um, what about rigorous exercise? 'Cause one of my strategies, like, say, if I have to fly to London or something like that, and I wanna avoid jet lag, I immediately go to the gym.
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's the first thing I do. I put my stuff in the hotel room, I go right down to the gym-
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... no negotiation whatsoever, and I get in at least an hour.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I, I have to.
- TWTommy Wood
That's a, that's a great way, that's a great way to, um, to, to help to offset some of the jet lag.
- 1:03:48 – 1:09:14
Supplements in elite sport: third-party testing, caffeine strategies, creatine, and “no peptide” reality
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah, so, um, they might u- they might use melatonin. Um, one of the, one of the issues that we have-- it's not an issue, it, it, it makes perfect sense, is that, um, the, the supplements that we use with the drivers have to be third-party tested, right? NSF Sport certified-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- TWTommy Wood
... or informed, Informed Sport certified. So some of the things that we might like to try-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that because the drivers get tested?
- TWTommy Wood
Because the drivers get tested, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what do they ban? What's banned?
- TWTommy Wood
Everything. It's the same as WADA, it's like, like all the WADA-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well-
- TWTommy Wood
... all the WADA drug, uh, drugs-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay. Okay
- TWTommy Wood
... it's the same. They're under WADA regulations. So, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Are they allowed to use peptides?
- TWTommy Wood
Um, it's, it's, it's a grey area. In general, I don't believe, I don't believe anybody does, and we certainly don't recom- uh, recommend it for, for that reason, 'cause we just don't know what's in there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Are they tested for peptides?
- TWTommy Wood
Um, so they're not tested for peptides, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Then there you go.
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles] Uh, well, it-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughing]
- TWTommy Wood
... that's, it, you know, it depends on whether there's, there's actually a peptide that has good, high-quality evidence in humans.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's-
- TWTommy Wood
Uh
- JRJoe Rogan
... also, you should get them from a real good compounding pharmacy.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Make sure you're getting it from a quality source. Which is, the real problem with peptides today is that since they're not regulated, there's a lot of grey market. There's a lot of real, you know, bullshit corporations that are selling you stuff that's nonsense-
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... and even things that are tainted.
- TWTommy Wood
So yeah, so, so, so the main thing that you're, you're worried about is contamination.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
Like, what else have they put in there-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 1:09:14 – 1:33:28
Arousal tuning and pre-performance routines: the Yerkes–Dodson sweet spot
- TWTommy Wood
So the-- Wh- when you think about complex skill performance, and, like, there's a, there's, like, a whole chapter on this in, in the book. The, the most important driver is ar- arousal, right? How aroused is your physiology, and are you set up with the right level of sympathetic activation, noradrenaline, adrenaline, cortisol, to kind of get the, the, the best level of performance?
- JRJoe Rogan
And don't let any one of those overwhelm the other ones.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah, exactly. So the, the, the curve is bell-shaped, right? It's the Yerkes-Dodson curve, named after a couple of guys who actually did studies in mice, um, that then translated actually surprisingly well over to humans. Um, and so what it says is that, if you're sort of under-aroused, you're kind of disengaged, a bit lethargic, right? You're, you're not really gonna perform well. If you're over-aroused, you're sweaty, anxious, right? Again, you're not gonna be able to sort of pay attention to the task. So there's this sweet spot. At the top of the curve, you're capable of flow states, clutch states, which is where you can perform at your best, but it's still like, it's, it's hard work. Um, and so what you're trying to do is get the guys to the top of that curve. Um, and this, for many, involves some element of routine, right? Knowing that I've done the thing that I know that's gonna make me feel good. And so it's a combination, often of the things that we've already mentioned. They might use, um, some warm-up sprints, they might use music, they might use bright light, they might use breathwork, um, they might use cold. Um, certainly, if it, if it's gonna be a, a hot race, they might, um, do some pre, pre-cooling, uh, to bring down core temperature. That improves endurance-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, do they bring-
- TWTommy Wood
... during the race
- JRJoe Rogan
like, cold plunges to Formula 1 days?
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ooh, that's smart!
- TWTommy Wood
So some of them have a, some of them have a, a, like a, a cold plunge or, you know, you, you can, you can fill out a wheelie bin with, uh, water and ice and jump in that. Um, it doesn't need to be that cold, actually. So for, um, increasing endurance performance, like 20 minutes at around 20 degrees Celsius, or like 60-ish, um, Fahrenheit, that significantly improves, um, like endurance significantly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is there a benefit to 20 minutes at 60 degrees, uh, Fahrenheit, versus three minutes at 34 degrees?
- TWTommy Wood
So the, the problem is that when you get too cold, you can actually, um, decrease cognitive performance. So there's a, there's a fine line when it's really cold, that what you wanna do is you wanna decrease core temperature without negatively affecting cognitive function. And so that's easier to manage at h- at slightly less cold temperatures.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, I see, I see.
- TWTommy Wood
Um, because just like if you did really, really exhaustive exercise, right? You go out, um, and so I was a rower, uh, in college, so like a, a 2K test on a rowing machine. Like, after that, my brain doesn't work for like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- TWTommy Wood
... hours afterwards.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right.
- TWTommy Wood
And so, like, very, um, you know, very cold ice baths for several minutes, for some people, that can decrease cognitive function. So you, you can find a sweet spot. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
That makes sense. That, that makes a lot of sense because, um, my mind is very bad after brutal workouts.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, if I, if I have a really hard workout and I come in and do a podcast, there's, there's a moment where I'm like, "Um, uh..." [chuckles] It's just not firing.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. Yeah, and that, and that's perfect, and that's, that's, that's normal. We know that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
If you do very fatiguing exercise for a period of time, you experience a decline in cognitive function.
- JRJoe Rogan
But a light exercise stimulates you.
- TWTommy Wood
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TWTommy Wood
So, like, one of the best, um, studied, um, exercise modalities to improve cognitive function is literally just like a 20-minute jog, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- 1:33:28 – 1:58:08
Performance psychology: self-compassion, handling failure, and tools to reset in the moment
- JRJoe Rogan
What about the psychology aspect of it? I mean, this is a very controversial aspect of, uh, mixed martial arts in particular, because, um, there's, there's kind of two schools of thought. There's, there's, uh... Like, I have a good friend who's a coach, that recently told me he's not working with any fighters anymore that need a mental coach.
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I said: "Why?" And he's like: "You just can't count on them." He goes: "They're just too fragile. They need a mental coach." He goes: "I want a motherfucker who just knows that this is what he's supposed to be doing and just go out and do it."
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm like, "Boy, but that kind of limits your athletes, right?"
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, uh, do you, do you think that there's benefit in mental coaching, or do you think, like, to reach a championship level, there's an inherent mindset that you must have going into that, and you can improve upon that, but if you do not have that mindset, you're not gonna be successful? This is my friend's idea. I don't want to call him out-
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. Yeah, yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... 'cause I know the athletes he worked with.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But, you know, he recently had a, a bad result with one of his athletes. He's like: "I'm done. No m- no more guys who need mental coaches. I want killers."
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles] So I think that you're gonna need some element of a mindset to get to that level to begin with, right? Um, but we have psychologists on our team who work, work with the drivers regularly. Other drivers who aren't, you know, uh, working with us, bring in sports psychologists very regularly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do, do you collaborate with these psychologists? Do you talk to them and-
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... get their notes?
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah, yeah. So we have-
- JRJoe Rogan
What are common issues?
- TWTommy Wood
[lip smack] The... I mean, again, it's just, it- it's so, uh, dependent on the ind- on the individual. Um, but it-
- JRJoe Rogan
But like, what is-
- TWTommy Wood
But it's also, but it's also very common across all athletes, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TWTommy Wood
So it's like overcoming failure or fear of failure, or, um, you'd- you maybe it's dealing with difficult relationships which, which, you know, for various reasons that they can experience. Um, and then it's how, you know, their inherent thought process is when that happens. So, so we know that the most resilient athletes are those that tend to be self-compassionate, right? So, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Interesting.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That is interesting. I would have thought the opposite.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah. And so there's this idea, right, that, right, you want killers, you want, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
People hard on themselves
- TWTommy Wood
... the guys who are hard on themselves.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TWTommy Wood
But for sustained-- and, and so this is looking across, like, as broad as possible across sport. Those who are most, um, most successful, most often-- of course, there's gonna be, there's gonna be the, the killer who's just, like, hard on themself and gets the job done, of course, right? But, um, these elements of self-compassion that include, um, things like mindfulness, like thinking about the world and understanding it, and about their place in it, and, um, common humanity, which is like treating themselves as they would treat other people. And acknowledging that, right, we all make mistakes, and stuff always happens, but I can overcome this. I, you know what? This has happened to me before. Like, I've sucked, I've crashed, I've done something wrong, and hey, I, I o- overcame it, and, you know, n- now I'm succeeding again. Those, um, mental skills are most common amongst the, the high-level, high-level athletes. So I, so I, I'll give an example. This is not... So I don't know him, but, like, um, Roger Federer has a very famous quote, right? He gave at some, um, like, graduation address or something, where he says that across his career, he only won fifty-four percent of his points on court, right?
- 1:58:08 – 2:08:30
What’s in the book: beyond amyloid—white matter, vascular health, and the “3S” model
- TWTommy Wood
So the, like, the first, the first part of the book is about, um, some of the history of, of neuroscience and why we think about the brain the way we do and some of the limitations that's created. Like, why we think about, um, Alzheimer's disease as just being like the accumulation of amyloid and tau proteins in the brain, which people might have heard of, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TWTommy Wood
That's what it's been boiled down to, when there's actually a much bigger picture and many other things that, that are important. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wasn't the... Was it, uh, Alzheimer's, where the amyloid plaque, where that idea was sort of proven to be a little bit bullshit?
- TWTommy Wood
So there have been a-- so, uh, not really, but kind of. So there were several seminal papers in-
- JRJoe Rogan
That were hoaxed, right?
- TWTommy Wood
They, they, they were manipulated in some way, right, they-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- TWTommy Wood
And this is v- this, unfortunately, is quite common, where you, you change the figures, you manipulate these blots to make them show different things, and you kind of move them around and copy and paste, and it kind of shows what you want to show. And so, like, for some of the, like, seminal papers in Alzheimer's, that, that turned out to be the case.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh!
- TWTommy Wood
But it, it, it doesn't, like, discount the fact that it's still a, still a part of it. Um, but people have increasingly looked away from just the accumulation of certain proteins in the brain for, for two reasons. One is that we had, as, as a field, they had to create, um, new ideas like resilience. And there's this thing called cognitive resilience, which is how much, uh, cognitive function do you maintain in the face of these proteins building up in the brain? And that's because the n- the amount of amyloid you have in your brain doesn't really predict cognitive function and co- and cognitive decline that well. So some of that is related to other things. So we know that, like, exercise is a, is, is an important part of that. Um, and then we know that there are these other things that, that are important, um, as well. So inflammation, um, other cells in the brain that become critical. So, like, the white matter is a really critical structure in the brain. It's what allows us to have really fast, uh, processing speed, um, uh, decision-making, executive function, the function of the prefrontal cortex, all of that is kind of, um, dependent on white matter structure. Um, and that seems to be really related to, like, uh, vascular function, vascular health. Um, resistance training is really important to support that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- TWTommy Wood
So, like, all these other things become important as well. So, like, that's kind of the... It's just showing, like the first part of the book is saying, "Hey, we kind of focused a lot here, but actually, that's not-- it's not that that's not important, but, like, there's a whole bunch of other stuff that's important, too." Um, and a lot of it is related to things that we have control over. So then, then, you know, I, uh, we talk, I talk about all the different types of exercise, how different types of exercise affects different parts of the brain in different ways. Um, nutrition, um, talk a lot about cognitive stimulus, soc- uh, social connection, um, sleep, um, like I said, stress management and stress mitigation, and how you can kind of manage your performance in the moment. Um, and then all of that comes together in terms of, into like a model, um, that I call the three S model of how these different, like, things kind of interact, um, and, and affect you on a day-to-day basis. So the, the first S being stimulus, right? We've talked about all, all the reasons why that's, that's important. Um, the second S being supply, which is if you stimulate a part of the brain or a network in the brain with a new skill, that area of the brain, uh, the neurons and the astrocytes there, they ask for more blood flow. So the blood vessels have to widen, they dilate, to bring in more oxygen, bring in more glucose or, or whatever metabolic substrate you're using, ketones, lactate, et cetera. Um, and so you need really good cardiovascular health. That's critical, so that's, that's a big part of what we talk about. Um, you also need good metabolic health. So, uh, high blood pressure and high blood sugar are two of the biggest risk factors for later dementia because they affect this supply component, either the blood flow getting there or being able to regulate-... you know, energy. Um, and then there's a bunch of nutrients that are important in, in that bucket as well. So omega-3s, vitamin D, iron, magnesium, um, because they have very-- uh, B vitamins, they have very specific functions in the brain that we know that if you're deficient, you have an increased risk of cognitive decline and dementia. And then you've stimulated a part of the brain, you've kind of given it all the substrate it needs to do its job. Like we've talked about, adaptation occurs, and function en- it gets enhanced when we sleep or when we recover. So, like, that's support is the third bucket. So sleep is a part of that. Um, other support you might get, like hormonal status is, is important. Uh, trophic factors, right? Hormones that get released or proteins that get released that support, uh, neuroplasticity in the brain, things like brain-derived neurotrophic factor. And then you want to avoid things that kind of inhibit that process. Um, so as chronic stress can do that, it creates like an overtraining kind of picture in the brain. Um, uh, smoking, uh, excessive alcohol, um, air pollution, those kinds of things, um, can, can have a negative effect. So, like, that's how they, that's how they all interact. And the fact that they interact means that depending on what feels most impactful to you-- like, what's the thing that you think you can move the needle on? By focusing on one area, the whole network starts to shift, and we see that in, in multiple different studies. So if you focus on sleep and you sleep a bit better, then the next-- then we see that, like, inflammation decreases, and blood pressure improves, and blood sugar improves, and the next day you feel more sociable. So you're more likely to interact with other people in a friendly way, and you're more likely to engage in cognitively stimulating tasks because, um, when we're tired, w- we kind of shy away from those things. And it's the same if you-- so there are studies in older adults where you give them a brain training program, and they sleep better because when you stimulate, um, a tissue, you then drive greater need for recovery after. It's the same if you exercise more, you sleep better. So the f-- it's not like this long list of things that everybody has to do and-- 'cause when you give somebody a list of thirty-seven things, they'll do zero things, right? We know that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TWTommy Wood
Um, so if you, if you just know that they all kind of communicate and interact, any way you come in, you can start to kind of shift things in your favor.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, when you're compiling a book like this, I would imagine there's a lot of editing.
- TWTommy Wood
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so how do you decide, like, what to leave in? I mean, this looks like it's-- I mean, obviously, these are all blank pages, so they're not numbered-
- TWTommy Wood
[chuckles]
- JRJoe Rogan
... but it looks like this is at least a three-hundred-page book.
- TWTommy Wood
Uh, yeah, the fi- the final book is about four hundred and fifty pages.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh!
- TWTommy Wood
Hundred and sixty-five thousand words.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa!
- TWTommy Wood
Um, and the, the reference list, like... So, um, unlike most health books, every time I make, like, a, a statement or I mention a study, there's a little number, and that, that gives you the paper or papers that I'm talking about that supports that, right? Um, it's two thousand papers long. Um, and so, like, that all has to go online because they couldn't-
- JRJoe Rogan
Of course
- TWTommy Wood
... they couldn't afford to print it in the book. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
But that's probably better anyway.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah, yeah. Like, 'cause, like, there's like seven people who will, who will do that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 2:08:30 – 2:11:07
Maintaining (and improving) cognition later in life: debunking “inevitable decline” + closing
- TWTommy Wood
And possibly improve it. And there is evidence you can improve it even later in life. And so a, a big part of this is that when you-- uh, right at the... You know, earlier we talked about, you know, this graph of cognitive function, right? It increases till you're sort of 20 or 30, and then it declines. When we're doing studies that show that kind of thing, what we're doing is we're looking at a whole bunch of people, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of people, and we're saying, like, "You plot them all on a graph." And yeah, as, as you get- as you sort of increase in age, there are some people who are gonna lose function, and you kind of like draw the average down. But we've known essentially since, uh, for the last 50 years, that, um, when you look at the same person over several decades, it's actually very normal for us to maintain function. So like, um, the Seattle Longitudinal Study was run by a guy called Warner Shaie in Seattle, and it was one of the first studies where they measured cognitive function in the same people every seven years for several decades. And like every seven years, they measured the same people and brought in new people. And so they ended up with people who were, like, in their 20s, up to over 100 years old. And they found that the average effects, by that I mean that more than 50% of people maintained the same level of cognitive function into their 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- TWTommy Wood
And those data were used to actually raise the retirement age in the US in, in the 1980s, because they showed that it actually wasn't normal for people to decline. But the problem is now we've embodied this idea that as you get older, you will decline, and as a result, you stop engaging in all the things that we've talked about. 'Cause you're like, "Oh, I'm too old to lift that. I'm too old to learn a new skill," you know, "I'm- I don't have time to do that." And as a result, right, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You stop engaging in those processes, and decline happens as a result. But if we know that it's possible to maintain function and we continue to engage in those processes, the norm should be that function is maintained.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, last question.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you do an audio version of this?
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah, I'm recording it at the moment. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
All right. When will that be available?
- TWTommy Wood
Be out on the same day, uh, March 24th.
- JRJoe Rogan
March 24th, The Stimulated Mind, Dr Tommy Wood. Go get it, folks. I promise it won't be like this. [laughing]
- TWTommy Wood
[laughing]
- JRJoe Rogan
Thank you, Tommy. I, I really enjoyed this.
- TWTommy Wood
Thanks so much, Tommy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Thank you very much.
- TWTommy Wood
Yeah, it was great.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's really important information, too, and I, I think it's something that everyone should apply.
- TWTommy Wood
Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
All right. Thank you. Bye, everybody. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 2:11:07
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