Joe Rogan Experience #2450 - Tommy Wood

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Speaker 0:02 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

Tommy Wood 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

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Joe Rogan 0:12 All right. Nice to meet you, sir. Stimulated Mind: A Fut- Future-Proof Your Brain. Is that possible? Future- future-proof... Why can't I say that? I already, I already have dementia.

Tommy Wood 0:23 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 0:23 Future-proof your brain from dementia and stay sharp at any age. Um, what-- first of all, what prompted you to write this?

Tommy Wood 0:35 So I've spent a long time working in a whole range of different spheres related to the brain. Um, how to treat newborn brain injury, how to treat and maybe even prevent certain traumatic brain injuries and concussions. Looking at what affects long-term cognitive decline and dementia, as well as working with elite, uh, professional athletes, particularly Formula One drivers, trying to help them, you know, stay on top of their game for as long as possible. And I saw across all those different areas, there were these core things that the brain seems to thrive on that are required either for development or maintenance of cognitive function. And these are things that people can apply to themselves on a day-to-day basis, improve their focus, um, and well-being now, and then long term, that translates to a lower risk of dementia.

Joe Rogan 1:27 So i- is dementia an... Is a, is a gene-- is it a genetic thing, or is it a function of atrophy? Is it a combination of those things?

Tommy Wood 1:40 It's a combination of those things. Certainly, there's a genetic component, so maybe I will zoom out to start with and-

Joe Rogan 1:47 Okay

Tommy Wood 1:47 ... just think about, like, what is dementia? Dementia is the clinical diagnosis of losing so much cognitive function that you're not able to take care of yourself on a day-to-day basis. There are several different types of dementia. The most common is Alzheimer's disease. That's something like, uh, sixty to eighty percent of cases of dementia. The next most common is vascular dementia, something like ten to twenty percent. And then there are others, like frontotemporal dementia, Lewy body dementia, dementia you get with Parkinson's disease. But those first two, something like seventy to ninety percent of dementias, they are directly tied to lifestyle and the environment, and right now, it's estimated that somewhere between forty-five and maybe even seventy or more percent of dementias are preventable, and most of those fall into those two categories. There is a genetic component, so, uh, Alzheimer's disease has two broad types. There's early-onset Alzheimer's disease, that's caused by a single mutation in a single gene, something like the amyloid precursor protein gene or one of the presenilin genes. Those people get Alzheimer's in their thirties to fifties. It's a very, uh, predictable and quite rapid decline sometimes, but that's maybe one percent of Alzheimer's. The vast majority, like, when we think about Alzheimer's, we think about an age-related dementia, and this is much more related to the environment. So there is a genetic component. You might

Tommy Wood 3:18 have heard of APOE4.

Joe Rogan 3:21 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 3:21 So you can have three different flavors of APOE, apolipoprotein E, uh, two, three, and four. You get two copies.

Joe Rogan 3:28 Which is the one that makes you more, um, more likely to get CTE? Is that two?

Tommy Wood 3:34 Oh, no. So that's, that's, that's four as well.

Joe Rogan 3:36 That's four as well?

Tommy Wood 3:37 Yeah. So four, um, essentially has an effect of amplifying certain inflammatory effects, um, in the brain. That's probably why it makes CTE worse-

Joe Rogan 3:46 Mm-hmm

Tommy Wood 3:46 ... makes it more likely for you to get CTE, 'cause if you're, if you're getting repetitive impacts, repetitive injuries, then it sort of exacerbates or makes that inflammatory response worse. Um, but when you, uh, think about that in terms of Alzheimer's, if you have one copy of, of APOE4, your increase-- your risk of Alzheimer's is increased by sort of two to six times. If you have two copies, it's six to twenty times, depending on how you look at it.

Joe Rogan 4:10 Wow!

Tommy Wood 4:10 Um, but all the data suggest that APOE4 is a risk multiplier, right? So it's not that if you have a copy of APOE4, you're definitely gonna get, um, dementia. It's that in the setting, particularly of the modern environment, risks of dementia or risk factors for dementia are amplified, like excessive alcohol intake, uh, physical inactivity, low-quality diet. Um, so that also means that if you have, um, if you, if you then address those risk factors, you have greater benefit, right? Because you're offsetting some of that additional risk. So however you look at dementia from a genetic standpoint, and it can also be family history, right? If you have a family history of dementia, you have an increased risk of dementia. But a lot of what comes with family history is shared environment and shared lifestyle, right? You eat and sleep and move like your parents did. And so if they had a lifestyle that might increase their risk of dementia, you get that as well. So even if you do have an increased genetic risk, you can offset a large part of that through lifestyle and other environmental factors.

Joe Rogan 5:18 Okay, so for some people, there's an increased genetic risk, but do some people who do not have this increased genetic risk, do they still have a possibility of getting dementia just from atrophy or just from sedentary lifestyle, no stimulation whatsoever?

Tommy Wood 5:32 Yes. So the, the kind of the way we would say it is that not everybody who has APOE4 gets Alzheimer's, and most people who have Alzheimer's do not have APOE4.

Joe Rogan 5:40 Mm.

Tommy Wood 5:41 So, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 5:42 Okay, so is it just like everything else? Like your muscles atrophy, your bones weaken when you don't put load on them. Is that what it is?

Tommy Wood 5:52 Yeah. So that's, like, the core thesis of my book, right? It's called The Stimulated Mind-

Joe Rogan 5:56 Mm

Tommy Wood 5:56 ... um, for that reason. I think that in the-... and the, and the title is slightly provocative, 'cause in the modern world, we are-

Joe Rogan 6:04 Hyperstimulated.

Tommy Wood 6:05 Overstimulated, and-

Joe Rogan 6:06 With nonsense.

Tommy Wood 6:07 Exactly. So we're overstimulated and under-stimulated at the same time.

Joe Rogan 6:10 Right. We're getting a lot of input, but we're not doing any calculations.

Tommy Wood 6:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:15 We're not formulating new ideas, we're not being creative, we're not problem-solving.

Tommy Wood 6:19 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 6:19 We're just being inundated with nonsense.

Tommy Wood 6:21 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 6:22 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 6:22 So the, the function of any tissue in the body, right? You mentioned the muscles, the bones, the liver, the immune system, their function is, uh, dependent on the stimulus you apply to them, right?

Joe Rogan 6:32 Right.

Tommy Wood 6:32 And so the brain is exactly the same. And if you want functions and networks in the brain to func- to perform well, you need to challenge them in order to enhance capacity in them.

Joe Rogan 6:42 Do you think you need to keep your liver working healthy by drinking every now and then? [laughing]

Tommy Wood 6:47 [laughing] So, um, the- it, it's the example of, yes, if you drink a lot of alcohol, your, your liver gets better at metabolizing alcohol.

Joe Rogan 6:54 Right.

Tommy Wood 6:54 So it kind of, it proves the point, but that doesn't necessarily mean that- [laughing]

Joe Rogan 6:58 [laughing]

Tommy Wood 6:58 ... the, the alcohol is, is there to keep your liver healthy.

Joe Rogan 7:00 Well, didn't-

Tommy Wood 7:01 Probably not.

Joe Rogan 7:01 Didn't they used to do that with people that had, uh, if they had lung problems, they would give them cigarettes?

Tommy Wood 7:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:08 Like people with asthma?

Tommy Wood 7:09 Yeah, yeah. And th- that didn't turn out so great. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 7:12 [laughing]

Tommy Wood 7:12 But the theory, like, the theory was okay, but-

Joe Rogan 7:14 I think they should've just been breathing heavy. That would've been a better application-

Tommy Wood 7:18 Yeah

Joe Rogan 7:18 ... of that, right?

Tommy Wood 7:18 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:18 Because it's just like, you don't want to tor-- your lungs aren't a filter to, like, torture you. [laughing]

Tommy Wood 7:24 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 7:24 Yeah. Um, so when you started studying this, do you have someone close to you that has Alzheimer's? Or is it just a, a field of study that you were interested in?

Tommy Wood 7:34 Yeah, there was two different things. One, um, I, I focused initially on the brain early in life, and then, you know, elite-level cognitive performance in athletes. And you kind of see that these things sort of tie together, like what happens early in life, what happens during life, affects what happens later in life.

Joe Rogan 7:52 Mm-hmm.

Tommy Wood 7:53 But I also had my grandfather died of dementia. He, he was an alcoholic, um, and he had a combination of alcoholic, um, you know, alcohol-induced brain atrophy, plus, uh, vascular dementia.

Joe Rogan 8:05 Oof. Um, I really wonder about people today, and this is one of the reasons why I was so interested in this. Because the, what do we-- what we were just talking about before, that people are being oversaturated with nonsense, but not stimulated-

Tommy Wood 8:18 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 8:18 ... in any way that challenges your mind.

Tommy Wood 8:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:20 I mean, this is a constant state today. And then on top of that, you've got a lot of people that are y- using AI throughout their day to solve all their problems, where they don't think at all.

Tommy Wood 8:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:33 And there's been some studies on that, that show that it's a decrease in cognitive function. Like, when they ask them to actually use their brain, the brain works less well-

Tommy Wood 8:43 Yeah

Joe Rogan 8:43 ... than it did before they started. So you're not getting educated by ChatGPT-

Tommy Wood 8:47 No

Joe Rogan 8:48 ... or any of these. What you're doing is you're letting it think for you.

Tommy Wood 8:51 Absolutely. So this one, well, maybe one of the studies you're thinking of was a study they did at MIT, and they had students write essays, and they could either just write it using whatever they had in their head already, or using Google, or using an LLM. And what they showed was that, as you increase the amount of, like, outside support you got, you know, Google and then I think it was ChatGPT, then there was less activity in the brain networks associated with actually doing the task, and students remembered less well afterwards. So I mean, this isn't surprising.

Joe Rogan 9:28 Not at all.

Tommy Wood 9:28 You're not using your brain, therefore-

Joe Rogan 9:30 Right

Tommy Wood 9:30 ... it do- it doesn't engage in the task. But what's interesting is that they, they found a version. This, so like, some of the students who had previously written the t- written, written an essay just for themselves, then they asked them to go back and use ChatGPT on top, and what they found was that the final output was better. So the way that we can use these tools, rather than just asking it to do all the stuff for us, which is what most people are doing, and I think will cause skills and maybe even parts of the brain to atrophy because they're not being used, is we use them as orthotics. Like, they can expand our capacities, right? You try writing it all first, and then you say, "Hey, what did I miss? W- what am I not thinking about?"

Joe Rogan 10:14 Right.

Tommy Wood 10:14 And you can kind of build on it from there.

Joe Rogan 10:16 And that might perhaps actually stimulate your mind-

Tommy Wood 10:19 Exactly

Joe Rogan 10:19 ... to think, "Why didn't I think of that?"

Tommy Wood 10:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:21 Like, "Next time I'm writing a paragraph, I'll consider these options."

Tommy Wood 10:25 Yeah, exactly. So you actually have to en- like, fully engage your brain in that process.

Joe Rogan 10:29 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 10:29 But then they might res- you might-- the end result might be better.

Joe Rogan 10:32 Well, the, it's just such uncharted territory for us.

Tommy Wood 10:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:35 Right? All this, the-- especially social media. I mean, completely uncharted territory, that people are staring at their hand for eight hours a day.

Tommy Wood 10:43 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 10:43 I mean, that's really what you're doing.

Tommy Wood 10:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:45 You're staring at your hand, and you're hoping, uh, usually unsuccessfully-

Tommy Wood 10:49 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 10:49 ... to get something that really excites you.

Tommy Wood 10:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:51 And something that's really unique and, and changes your perspective on things. I mean, I think maybe when I was using social media every day, maybe once a day I would get something that I was really interested in, that I would save.

Tommy Wood 11:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:04 I'd go, "Oh, that's actually interesting." And I would think, "Okay, that'd be a good subject to bring up on the podcast." But the rest of the time, it was just horseshit.

Tommy Wood 11:12 [chuckles] Well, part of the algorithm, and this... You know, I'm not an expert in training algorithms to do this, but part of the, the, the goal of the algorithm is that you don't get everything that is perfect or that will, that immediately captures your attention upfront, right?

Joe Rogan 11:27 Mm-hmm.

Tommy Wood 11:27 Because you want it to be random. And there's a, like, method in the randomness that keeps you scrolling.

Joe Rogan 11:35 Right.

Tommy Wood 11:35 Because eventually y- you- you'll get those small bumps that then, that then keep, that keep, keep you going. But what's particularly interesting about social media is it leverages the fact that we are social beings. So we prioritize information that is called, we, uh, the acronym is PRIME: prestigious, in-group, moral, and emotional. And this is even greater in social contexts, right? 'Cause we are trying to learn about our social environment so that we can survive our group and be fitter. And so social media makes us think that we will get that information-... whilst at the same time offering us the exact opposite, which is essentially isolation. Uh, but it leverages that desire of the human brain to find this social information and this social connection, whilst not giving us any of that.

Joe Rogan 12:22 Ugh! Also, without it getting any feedback from another human being while you're communicating ideas.

Tommy Wood 12:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:29 So you could say the most horrible shit to people in a comment or a text message, and you don't think about it because it's like there's not a person there.

Tommy Wood 12:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:35 Not right in front of you.

Tommy Wood 12:37 Yeah. And-

Joe Rogan 12:37 It's designed for like, it's like an anti-human device.

Tommy Wood 12:40 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 12:41 Very weird.

Tommy Wood 12:42 But, I mean, if, if your goal is to capture attention-

Joe Rogan 12:46 Yeah

Tommy Wood 12:46 ... they're doing a great job of it.

Joe Rogan 12:48 Well, not just that, they're acquiring enormous wealth, and also enormous influence over the, just all sorts of things: politics, economics.

Tommy Wood 12:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:00 I mean, the, some of the richest corporations in the world, they, they gather a thing that we never thought of was va- valuable, which is data.

Tommy Wood 13:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:07 I mean, when we-- when people first started using these things, when people first started using the internet, nobody really thought that data was going to be one of the biggest commodities in the world.

Tommy Wood 13:16 Yeah, but now, if they know what captures your attention and what you'll spend money on, and-

Joe Rogan 13:21 Right

Tommy Wood 13:21 ... like, that's a, that's a perfect way to, to get as much out of you as possible.

Joe Rogan 13:26 Um, so the concept is future-proofing your brain.

Tommy Wood 13:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:30 Um, but like, what are the things that you think people should be doing to try to future-proof their bra-- other than avoiding social media-

Tommy Wood 13:38 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 13:38 ... and avoiding a lot of the stuff that we're talking about here?

Tommy Wood 13:42 So I think, right, every, every tool has a possible use. So like, for instance, social media, if, if you have crafted a social media that allows you to maintain connections that you wouldn't have otherwise, like the original, uh, version of Facebook as it existed twenty-five years ago, was just like posting pictures, and you could, like, ch- chat with some family members, right?

Joe Rogan 14:04 Right.

Tommy Wood 14:05 So if you use social media like that, and there are studies that show that if you're using online tools, including social media, and it increases communication and connection beyond what you would have had otherwise, that can be a net benefit. If it's all you use, and it's replacing in-person human connection, then it's, then it's a net negative. So there can be ways that it could be beneficial. And, you know, if your Instagram feed is just like cute dogs running around in the snow, which is what m- most of mine is right now, right? That can be a nice five-minute break in between cog-- like, cognitively demanding tasks.

Joe Rogan 14:38 Right.

Tommy Wood 14:39 That's, that's, that's, that's fine. Um, but when you think about future-proofing your brain, this, this idea that there is some unknowable future, right? We don't know what the future's gonna look like, but if we want to exist in that future, we're going to need, um, good processing speed, good decision-making skills, good working memory, good, um, emotional and socials, and social skills, right? And so, in order to maintain those, we need to challenge and stimulate them. So the-- I think the most important thing most people can do is think about new, challenging, and often creative skills, and there's a lot of, um, evidence for creative arts, music. What, what they do is they improve the function of networks in the brain that are, um, at risk during the processes of aging, uh, particularly because they're important for attention and social connection. And so if we really invest time in doing these things that we suck at and get better at, but get, get better at them, we maintain these broad cognitive skills that we're gonna need in the future, regardless of, of what happens. And some of that is also personal. So I... Like, the goal is to build as much cognitive capacity a- as possible, right? I have this idea of headroom, which is the difference between h- what you, what you need on a day-to-day basis versus what you're truly capable of.

Joe Rogan 16:11 Mm.

Tommy Wood 16:11 It's, it's the difference between, like, on a day-to-day basis, your legs need to be strong enough to, like, get you up off the toilet, right? But your maximum capacity is, like, what's your max back squat? The, the difference between those is your headroom.

Joe Rogan 16:24 Mm.

Tommy Wood 16:24 And then that gives you capacity to perform when you're injured or sick, or you need to, like, lift your car off your buddy 'cause it got flipped in a car accident. Like, all those things. Like, when you need to draw on greater resources, you want those resources to be there. Because we are gonna be stressed, sleep-deprived, sick, and we still want our brains to function. So investing in, like, really challenging, uh, tasks and skills builds that capacity so that we have access to it when we need it.

Joe Rogan 16:52 What, what is the function, and, like, what, what, what is the effect on the brain when you learn a new skill, like sucking at something?

Tommy Wood 16:59 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 16:59 Which I always tell people is one of the best things you can do.

Tommy Wood 17:01 Hundred percent.

Joe Rogan 17:02 A lot of people don't enjoy it-

Tommy Wood 17:03 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 17:03 ... because their ego, they don't like being frustrated that they're terrible at something.

Tommy Wood 17:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:07 But there's something about not being good at something and dedicating yourself to it, and, and seeing marked improvement, that stimulates all sorts of areas of your mind-

Tommy Wood 17:17 Uh-huh

Joe Rogan 17:17 ... which I find-

Tommy Wood 17:18 Yeah

Joe Rogan 17:18 ... really interesting.

Tommy Wood 17:20 So most people don't realize that the process of learning, which i- in itself is like the core process of neuroplasticity, right? The, the brain making new connections and cementing new connections. That whole process is driven by failure, essentially, and making mistakes, because your brain is a prediction machine. It's constantly predicting what's gonna happen next based on, you know, the world around you and what you're trying to do. And so imagine that you're trying to, um, do some kind of new move in jujitsu or something, and you have no idea how to do it. You're, you're gonna try it, and there's gonna be this big gap between your expectation and reality. That's gonna be frustrating, right? That's the feeling of failure. But that's what diverts resources in the brain to say, "Hey, we need to close the gap between what we hoped would happen and what actually happened."

Joe Rogan 18:13 Mm.

Tommy Wood 18:13 And that's what drives neuroplasticity, and this is also then what drives the cementing and function of these networks in the brain associated with that.... So the idea that you, you start sucking at something, and you get better at it over time, that is exactly the thing that the brain needs in order to improve, um, and maintain its function.

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Joe Rogan 19:39 How many of those things should you take on at once, though? This is my issue.

Tommy Wood 19:44 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 19:44 I, I have a problem-- I, I wish I could have four lives-

Tommy Wood 19:48 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 19:48 -that I could run simultaneously. I would do four-- I'd have four different occupations.

Tommy Wood 19:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:53 So I try to smash as many things into a day as possible. But there's many times where I think, "Boy, I think I'm doing too many different things that I'm trying to get good at-"

Tommy Wood 20:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:02 "-and maybe it would be better if I just concentrated on one."

Tommy Wood 20:06 So there's a few different ways to look at this. I think that a broad base and a broad range of different skills is probably something that we should all hope to have.

Joe Rogan 20:17 Like talent stacking.

Tommy Wood 20:18 Yeah. Yeah, exactly, and if you think about, um... Like, one of my favorite books is Range by David Epstein, which s- which talks about the broad range of skills that people who then really success it, uh, really succeed in academia or sports have, right? They didn't, um, specialize really early. They had, like, a broad base of talents that they can then draw upon as they, as they-

Joe Rogan 20:37 Mm

Tommy Wood 20:37 ... specialize later in life, and I think that's something that we can all aspire to. But equally, um, what's probably more common is that we try something, and we do it for a little while, and then we just kinda, like, give up on it, and we try something else. And-

Joe Rogan 20:50 Yeah

Tommy Wood 20:51 ... there's, there's, like, a little bit of benefit to that. But when you look at some of the studies that, um, uh, really examine the effect of learning some of these creative skills, and they've done it with tango dancers, and, uh, painters, and video gamers. When you s- when you, when you compare an expert to an amateur, [clears throat] um, and where you're seeing the benefits of expertise in terms of the function of some of these networks in the brain, it really is the development of some level of expertise, it, it is probably required to see the maximum benefit. Obviously, the learning curve is steepest at the, at the beginning, right? Right when you're lear- beginning to learn something, that's when you'll learn the fastest. But there, there is also some benefit to expertise. So some of that, like, just to say that, pick one or two things that you're actually excited to continue getting better at for a long period of time. And so then maybe you do have to, like, try, like, try a bunch of different things until you find the thing that, like, really, like, gets you going. But across all those different skills, they have similar core effects on the brain. So you don't have to do one or both. You can just, uh, pick the one that you enjoy the most.

Joe Rogan 21:59 So it's just about the struggle of trying to get better at something-

Tommy Wood 22:03 Yeah

Joe Rogan 22:03 ... essentially.

Tommy Wood 22:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:04 Yeah. And, um, my wife is learning a new language right now, and, uh, she's, she's been so excited about it.

Tommy Wood 22:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:11 And it's like, it's really interesting 'cause she starts talking around the house in French, and, uh, and it's o- one of those things where you're like, I was... I'm watching her do it. She wasn't doing it, and then she's been doing it over the last couple of months, and I'm seeing this, like, excitement-

Tommy Wood 22:25 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 22:25 -and this, like, new project. And we were talking about it, about how that is one of the things that's very difficult to do, but it's, it's more complex than learning because it's learning and interacting.

Tommy Wood 22:41 Mm.

Joe Rogan 22:41 It's not just learning. You're learning, but you have to, y- it requires, like, this back and forth with another person.

Tommy Wood 22:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:49 You have to l- understand sentence structure. You have to... It's just like com- and especially French is so different than English. There's so, there's so much weird shit involved in it, but you could see, like, I could see in her that, like, this is st- very stimulating-

Tommy Wood 23:01 Mm

Joe Rogan 23:01 ... to her mind.

Tommy Wood 23:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:02 And it made me go, "Oh, maybe I should learn a language."

Tommy Wood 23:04 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 23:04 But I'm like: "Fuck, where do you have the time to learn a language?" But then I thought about, like, when I was on social media all the time, I would look down at my phone some days, and it would say, "Screen use today, six hours." I'm like, "Fucking six hours!"

Tommy Wood 23:16 That's where your time is.

Joe Rogan 23:17 Right.

Tommy Wood 23:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:17 If you spent six hours just learning Spanish, how-- you'd be fluent.

Tommy Wood 23:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:22 I'd be able to go to a taqueria and order in Spanish, you know?

Tommy Wood 23:25 [chuckles] Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:25 It's like we spend so much time doing nonsense, that anything that you can do that requires your brain to be in that uncomfortable state-

Tommy Wood 23:37 Mm

Joe Rogan 23:38 ... of, um: "What is the an- oh, what is this? Oh, it's this. Uh, is that this? Uh, got it!" You know, that, that dance-

Tommy Wood 23:45 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 23:46 ... that firing of the synapses and, and forcing your brain to figure this, this puzzle out, so many people don't have that. And I see it in people that get stagnant, where they're doing the same thing every day. Their job is fairly mundane and kinda boring, and maybe they like it, but there's nothing stimulating about it. They're talking to the same boring-ass people.

Tommy Wood 24:10 Mm.

Joe Rogan 24:10 They don't exercise. They go home, and they watch TV.

Tommy Wood 24:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:13 And then they shut off, and they do it all again. And then you talk to them, like, five, ten years later, and it's almost like they've-- they're slipping.

Tommy Wood 24:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:21 Like, you see it. You can see it in people that have mundane existences. Like, their stimulation is so low that their ability to be stimulated is low.

Tommy Wood 24:31 ... I think that, that thing you describe i- is so baked into our society that we've started to believe that it's normal.

Joe Rogan 24:42 Right.

Tommy Wood 24:42 So when you look at the trajectory of cognitive function over the li-- o- over, like, your entire life, imagine like a graph, where on the one side you have cognitive function, and it could be something basic like processing speed. How quickly do you, does your brain process information? On the bottom is age, right? I- it tends to peak sometime around our sort of mid-twenties to early thirties. Um, it's usually the peak, on average, tends to be higher and later, the more time we spend in edu- education. So the more time we spend essentially as professional learners, the more we can build that kind of final capacity. After that, it's just sort of like, uh, an average decrease downwards. And, uh, a, a colleague of, uh, mine, Josh Chuck and I, he's a neurologist, we wrote a paper a couple, a couple of years ago where we theorized that the reason why we see that decline, uh, in, at the population level, in cognitive function from about that age, is because we go to work, we do the same thing again and again and again. Um, and then everything else in our life gets in the way, um, and we never spend that same time investing in building our cognitive capacities the way we did when we were kids and when we were in school. And so the decline is j-- partly because we just stop doing that. So the part-- you know, one of the theories of aging is that it's just a continuation of development, like processes of development. And most of the processes of development in the brain are, uh, refining connections based on the environment and the stimulus the brain receives. So if you start removing stimuli because you're no longer engaging in these, like, cognitively challenging things, the brain's gonna start removing connections. "Hey, I don't need that," right? "I'm not, I'm not using this part of my brain." And as a result, um, you start to see decline. And so there are studies that show if you have cog-- if you have a very stimulating job, it's very complex, problem-solving skills, uh, lots of social interactions, you have a slower rate of cognitive decline as an adult and a, and a lower risk of dementia. You see, um, in individuals who, uh, continue to engage in reading, wri-- uh, reading, writing, lectures, dancing, you know, a whole bunch of hobbies, again, you see a slowed rate of decline. So some of what we just expect to happen with age is because of the way we in- we, we stop engaging with the world, and we stop challenging ourselves.

Joe Rogan 27:09 Well, it completely makes sense, right? Like, if you think about physical activity, it, it goes along the same kind of path.

Tommy Wood 27:15 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 27:15 You see... Uh, I, I have friends, I'm fifty-eight, which is crazy to say.

Tommy Wood 27:20 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 27:20 It sounds so old. Um, but I have friends that are fifty-eight that are basically det- they're skeletons with, like, meat hanging-

Tommy Wood 27:26 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 27:26 -around various parts of it. But my physical ability is very similar to what it was when I was in my thirties. The only way that I could really test it is, like, physical competition, and I'm not really interested in that.

Tommy Wood 27:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:40 I don't want to get hurt. But my ca- capacity for work is very similar.

Tommy Wood 27:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:45 And I know that because I force it.

Tommy Wood 27:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:47 You know, I, I make myself do it, and I would imagine the same thing is true with, with the mind. I mean, it has to be. I think it's all together.

Tommy Wood 27:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:57 It's a use it or lose it.

Tommy Wood 27:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:59 And if your mind doesn't have a, a need to be constantly intrigued and stimulated-- like, you gotta think for survival, right? One of the things that's speculated, and maybe I can ask you about this, 'cause this is one of... I, I think about this a lot, like, what is ADHD? And I-- whether or not it's actually a problem, uh, I think it's a superpower-

Tommy Wood 28:23 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 28:24 -because I'm pretty sure I have it.

Tommy Wood 28:25 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 28:25 You know, but yet I can foc-- I'm very functional. I can focus on things, and as long as I tire myself out from activity, um, I can relax-

Tommy Wood 28:35 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 28:35 ... and I can concentrate on things, and I'm, I'm very interested in certain things, and I can lock into them and concentrate. But if, if I was forced to be in a classroom with a very boring teacher-

Tommy Wood 28:47 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 28:48 -teaching a subject I'm not that interested in, and I was a child, uh, if I had the wrong parents, luckily, I didn't, I would be medicated.

Tommy Wood 28:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:55 Right? But I think that that is this ability to focus on certain things, like hyperfocus, was probably a function of a persistent hunter.

Tommy Wood 29:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:07 Right? Because if you wanted to catch an animal, you couldn't be a person that gives up quick. You had to be a person that you, you keep looking for tracks, you keep trying to find sign, you're trying to figure out a way, like, "I've got to keep pushing one more hour. We got twenty minutes of s- daylight left. I've got to figure this out." Right? You, you, that thing had to be in you in order to be a successful hunter.

Tommy Wood 29:33 So, um, I'm sure that that's, that's part of it. The, the current picture of ADHD, I think, is, is quite complicated. So I have family members with ADHD. When they, um, then started on medication, they were like, "Oh, actually, all of a sudden, my brain works," right? So-

Joe Rogan 29:49 Right-

Tommy Wood 29:49 But-

Joe Rogan 29:49 ... but that medication is Adderall, right? If I took Adderall, I would say the same fucking thing.

Tommy Wood 29:56 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 29:56 I don't need a stimulant.

Tommy Wood 29:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:58 But if I took a stimulant right now, I'd be like, "Dude, I am so much better!"

Tommy Wood 30:02 So, no, but, but you know what happens in, in certain individuals with ADHD, when you give them stimulants-

Joe Rogan 30:07 They calm down.

Tommy Wood 30:07 They, they calm down. Right.

Joe Rogan 30:09 Right.

Tommy Wood 30:09 So I think there's a combination of multiple things. Some is, um, yes, like, these can be very, uh, beneficial traits in, in the right settings, but you also have to consider that we're layering on, um, a modern environment that's like bright lights at night, a whole bunch of-

Joe Rogan 30:26 Right

Tommy Wood 30:26 ... caffeine and stimulants, right?

Joe Rogan 30:28 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 30:28 And yeah, of course, some of it is, I think, um, a-... right, the teacher is boring, and they're like, they're just not engaged because, uh, you know, the majority of people with ADHD can still focus, right, on things that they're interested in focusing in.

Joe Rogan 30:42 Yes.

Tommy Wood 30:42 Um, or on-

Joe Rogan 30:43 Even without any kind of medication.

Tommy Wood 30:45 Yeah, so but there's, like, a sliding scale, and I think there's a whole bunch of different reasons why, for one individual, they might experience sym- symptoms of ADHD or not. So I think, I think it's complicated.

Joe Rogan 30:55 Can I ask you, b- before you go any further than that-

Tommy Wood 30:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 30:56 ... can I ask you, how much of that is dependent upon physical activity? Like, do we study ADHD based on whether someone is physically active or not? Because, look, if I'm not physically active, I'm a mess.

Tommy Wood 31:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:09 Like, if s- for something, if something happened, and for some reason, like, uh, I got a court order, "You're not allowed to exercise for six months, or you go to jail,"-

Tommy Wood 31:16 Wow

Joe Rogan 31:16 ... like, oh, God, I would probably be a fucking complete basket case, right?

Tommy Wood 31:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:21 And maybe I would have full-on ADHD. Maybe I wouldn't be able to concentrate on anything. My brain would be bouncing all over the place. Like, how much of it is a biological requirement that your body has to release energy?

Tommy Wood 31:33 So I think you can-- I would expand that out even further than that because physical activity is a core requirement of our biology and physiology.

Joe Rogan 31:43 Right.

Tommy Wood 31:43 Um, there's a, there's a nice quote by Inigo Salinas Milan, who's a, you know, well-known exercise physiologist, who says that, um, exerc- uh, physical activity is baked into our evolutionary, um, development, so much so that now we've had to invent exercise in order to, like, pre- like, to prevent what happens when we don't move.

Joe Rogan 32:07 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 32:07 So it's, the lack of movement is a disease-causing, pro-aging s- like, situation.

Joe Rogan 32:16 So to stop you there.

Tommy Wood 32:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:18 What if, I mean, or do they, when they treat kids with ADHD, do they take that into consideration?

Tommy Wood 32:25 So as I-- well, I'm not an ADHD researcher, so I, I, I genuinely don't know. Um-

Joe Rogan 32:31 But I would think that before you would give someone a stimulant, maybe track and field.

Tommy Wood 32:36 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 32:36 You know what I mean?

Tommy Wood 32:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:38 Maybe play badminton. Do something where you've got to run around-

Tommy Wood 32:42 Yeah

Joe Rogan 32:42 ... where you're like, "Oh, oh, boy, I can focus now."

Tommy Wood 32:44 I think, I think that that's, uh, now, again, I would say that that's needed for all kids, regardless-

Joe Rogan 32:50 Mm-hmm

Tommy Wood 32:50 ... of any potential diagnosis. So, of course, um, we need-- I, I think that should be taken into consideration. Whether that's gonna be enough, um, for every kid, you know, hard to say, but we know that all humans require significant amounts of physical activity just for their biology to work properly.

Joe Rogan 33:09 Right.

Tommy Wood 33:09 So certainly, if that's not being taken into account or it's not available or it's not encouraged, there are a whole host of conditions where that's gonna become a problem.

Joe Rogan 33:17 Well, it just only makes sense, right? And it, I mean, this has been talked about forever. The Stoics used to talk about it, this quieting the mind.

Tommy Wood 33:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:26 I mean, samurais used to talk about it, like, that physical activity. Just what, you know, one of the b- main benefits the Chinese used for kung fu thousands of years ago, quieting the mind.

Tommy Wood 33:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:36 And the propensity that we have in the society, this direction of almost immediately prescribing a medication for something when it seems like, well, you're-- what you're doing is you're dulling a biological requirement. You're, you're dulling the impact of this biological requirement that you're not meeting. Why wouldn't we prescribe exercise first and then think about those things? Like, for instance, like hormone replacement, w- if you have a good doctor, a, an ethical doctor, that is working with someone, and they s- they find out you have low testosterone, one of the first things they do is adjust your diet.

Tommy Wood 34:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:16 They say, "Well, you have so much food in your diet that causes inflammation. You have a very high rate of complex carbohydrates. You have a, a, a lot of sugar in your diet. You drink too much alcohol. You smoke cigarettes. Let's remove those things first, and then let's see what happens." And then you increase your protein, and you start drinking water, and you go, "Oh, look, your hormone levels are going up naturally." Well, because you were fucking poisoning yourself, right?

Tommy Wood 34:42 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 34:43 So wouldn't you-- I mean, why don't they prescribe exercise for kids? Other than the fact that you can't make money off of it, wouldn't it be a good idea?

Tommy Wood 34:53 Um, so I think that all kids should absolutely get, uh, you know, several hours, ideally, of, of movement and physical activity of different kinds every day. Um, part of the problem, it's not that scientists or doctors don't think that is im- that's important. Right now, the systems that we have make it very difficult for those things, uh, to be, to be put in place, right? So making sure that every kid has the time and the resources to be able to exercise and, like, the, the right kind of people so that they know what they're doing, and they're, they're supervised. Um, and, you know, it's the same with, uh, s- say with testosterone replacement, if your, if your testosterone is low. Like, most p- right, the, the primary cause or one of the most common causes of, of low testosterone in men is, right, that combination of metabolic disease, being sedentary, poor-quality diet. Like, we know that. But creating the systems that allow people to change those things and then supporting them to do that is really hard. Nobody, nobody has solved the behavior change problem, right? If we think about, if we think about the modern environment, um, and we think about what that drives us to do and not do, but we kn- we, we have all this information, right?

Joe Rogan 36:16 Right.

Tommy Wood 36:16 We know how to prevent these diseases. We know how to reverse many of them, and a lot of it is driven by lifestyle and the environment. But supporting people to change those behaviors and make sure they have the resources and time to do it, that's really hard. Like, nobody's solved that problem yet.

Joe Rogan 36:32 Boy, that seems like a problem that's easy to solve.... it's just based on personal responsibility.

Tommy Wood 36:38 No, but it's not.

Joe Rogan 36:39 But if you can tell someone, "This is your requirement for the day. I want you to run one mile-

Tommy Wood 36:45 But how are you- [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 36:46 ... I want you to do 100 push-ups and 100 sit-ups, and write it down."

Tommy Wood 36:49 But how are you-- So first of all, um-

Joe Rogan 36:51 But you're saying some- you're saying it like it's impossible-

Tommy Wood 36:54 I'm not saying-

Joe Rogan 36:55 -or very, very difficult.

Tommy Wood 36:55 I'm not saying it's, I'm not saying it's impossible. I think that those of us for whom this has become a part of our personality and our, and our lives, like, like you and me, of course, it's make-- Like, of course, you just do that. Like, you just go for the run, you do the 100 push-ups.

Joe Rogan 37:09 Right.

Tommy Wood 37:09 But for people who, like, have never had anything like this, and it's never been a part of their environment, it's never been a part of who they are, changing that actually requires a ton of work, um, and coaching, and it's actually, it's actually really difficult. And when I, when I say-

Joe Rogan 37:26 It's difficult, but it's totally doable physically. It's not like I'm asking you to breathe underwater.

Tommy Wood 37:31 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 37:31 Like, people have done it, and you can draw inspiration from... Like, my friend Jelly Roll.

Tommy Wood 37:36 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 37:36 You know Jelly Roll, the musician?

Tommy Wood 37:37 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:37 Jelly Roll was 500 pounds.

Tommy Wood 37:40 Mm.

Joe Rogan 37:40 And he's lost 300 pounds, and he did it with no Ozempic, no GLP-1s. He just started walking and started cutting sugar out of his diet, and slowly but sure- not even slowly, over the course of just a couple of years, he shrunk to, like, a normal-sized human. It's fucking amazing. But he drew inspiration from a lot of other people. You know, one of them, he's, he's good friends with my good friend Cam Haynes-

Tommy Wood 38:07 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 38:07 ... who's a ultramarathon runner-

Tommy Wood 38:08 Yeah

Joe Rogan 38:08 ... and endurance athlete, and so, you know, he's taken him on runs and worked out with him and helped him, and just watching YouTube videos, and just all he started doing was just walking. You know, where he couldn't walk up hills, and he would just walk around his block and walk up the hill when he didn't want to do it, and he did it. It's like, it's not... It, you can do it. You just have to start doing it, and I think the starting doing it is the most difficult. I don't think it's difficult to do it once you gather momentum, 'cause there's a, there's a thing that happens with people when they start doing something, they get excited, and then they look forward to doing it again. As long as you don't like, you don't take a guy who's 500 pounds and say, "Today, we're gonna do 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, we're gonna do kettlebells, and then we're gonna do laps around the-

Tommy Wood 38:53 Mm

Joe Rogan 38:53 ... the block." You can't do it. It's not possible.

Tommy Wood 38:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:56 But you could just go for a walk, and then tomorrow we're gonna go for a walk a little bit further, and then in two weeks, we're gonna double that walk, and then in three weeks, you know, we're gonna incorporate some light bodyweight squats, and along the way, we're gonna adjust your diet and then write these things down. Like, this is-- it's not impossible.

Tommy Wood 39:14 So I-

Joe Rogan 39:14 It's just they need motivation.

Tommy Wood 39:15 So I, I, I agree. It's, it's not impossible. Um, but, you know, I've worked with several digital health companies who are working in the behavior change space, and people don't need more information. Like, they know that they need to, to walk more, and they know that they could eat better, and they know that they could sleep better.

Joe Rogan 39:34 Right.

Tommy Wood 39:34 But the, the process of trying to, first of all, understand, like, "How should I do that? What should I do that? When sh- you know, wh- when, when should I do that?" And then, right, ha- like, some people may absolutely not have the time or the environment... Maybe they live somewhere where actually, you know what? They don't want to be walking around outside, right?

Joe Rogan 39:53 Right.

Tommy Wood 39:53 Uh, that's, that's relatively common. Or, um, they don't have a kitchen, right? So then how do you, how do you cook food? Like, how, how do you navigate that, that food environment? So-

Joe Rogan 40:06 Mm, yeah

Tommy Wood 40:06 ... I, I agree. I, I completely agree with you. All of this is doable, it's just that different people are gonna need different levels of support to do that initially, right? Gain that momentum-

Joe Rogan 40:17 Right

Tommy Wood 40:17 ... understand, understand, um, how, how that feels, um, how it changes them. And right now, the majority of people don't have access to that, that kind of support, and I absolutely hope that that changes, right? The food environment changes so that it's much easier to change the way that you eat, and that the built environment changes, so it's, it's much easier to go out and, and have a walk, um, and, and, and do a lot of that. Um, so I think that we just have to consider that it's both, right? There's, there's an individual component, right? But there's also, like, a societal component, where we have to make this as-

Joe Rogan 40:50 Right

Tommy Wood 40:50 ... as easy for people as possible and sort of, like, build it into their lives, such as they are.

Joe Rogan 40:56 Okay, so let's consider the societal aspect of it.

Tommy Wood 40:59 Mm.

Joe Rogan 40:59 Let's consider the... Like, how would you implement something-- Like, let's, let's imagine that you get appointed to some committee that's in charge of try- trying to facilitate this-

Tommy Wood 41:13 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 41:13 ... growth and improvement in people. What would you do?

Tommy Wood 41:17 So I think you need, um, a few, uh, a few different parts to it. One, uh, great part would be, so say through, you know, if you could dramatically improve quality and access of, like, education at all levels and make physical activity just be a regular part of that. That has been slowly removed from many educational curriculums around the world-

Joe Rogan 41:43 Right

Tommy Wood 41:43 ... over, over time, right? So bring some of that back, and it just becomes part of day-to-day life. And then you would also teach people the skills involved in some of these, these other things. So, like, teach, teach people how, how to cook and, and how to do that within the bounds of what they have access to. Their, you know, cultural preferences, dietary preferences, you know, financial, you know, financial abilities, that kind of stuff.

Joe Rogan 42:07 Right, that should be a part of a school curriculum.

Tommy Wood 42:09 Yeah, abs-

Joe Rogan 42:09 Yeah

Tommy Wood 42:09 ... absolutely. Just like you should teach kids about taxes and all these-

Joe Rogan 42:13 Right

Tommy Wood 42:13 ... all these other things.

Joe Rogan 42:13 Right.

Tommy Wood 42:14 And so I think if you start early on, and you do this with, um, sort of curiosity and, and skill building, then you release people out into the w- you know, that, that, that, I think that's, that's the place to start. Because when you get out into the real world, and you're working three jobs, and you live somewhere where you don't want to go for a walk outside, and, like, you can barely get six hours of sleep every night, and, you know, you've got three kids that you're trying to look after-... saying, "Oh, hey, you should do 100 push-ups every day," like, that's not gonna happen. Like, other things are gonna happen that, that are more important. Um, so, so I think there's that part, maybe the, the, the skill-building part. Then it's thinking about, like, how people have opportunities to do those things. Um, and then I would think about, you know, access to high-quality, um, you know, healthcare, psychological care, like these things that's- like, some- sometimes people need hel- help that they can't get access to, or it's expensive or whatever. Um, so I think giving more of that so that they get support when they need it, is definitely- would definitely help as well.

Joe Rogan 43:18 I think one great way would be to devise a website, make, like, maybe like even a government website, where you, uh, put in, like, your body weight, when was your last physical activity, what this, that, the other thing, all, the w- what's your diet? And then they implement a program-

Tommy Wood 43:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:39 ... and you could follow online with a bunch of other people that are doing the same thing-

Tommy Wood 43:42 Mm

Joe Rogan 43:42 ... and post your results.

Tommy Wood 43:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:44 So you have a community aspect to it, you have a, a, a dedicated program that you can follow, so you don't have to think about, "Oh, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do this." Like, it'll just tell you, "Just do this. Just do this. Oh, you weigh 400 pounds, you're 39 years old, you haven't worked out in 10 years."

Tommy Wood 44:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:01 "Okay, here's, here's day one."

Tommy Wood 44:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:03 And follow along, post your weight, post your, what you're eating. I mean, that... I mean, and, and with AI, I mean, that's one of the good things about an LLM, right? With AI, you could ask it to formulate adjustments.

Tommy Wood 44:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:18 And you could say, "Okay, what nutrients should I be consuming? What- how much protein do I actually need? How much- how many calories do I need? How many calories are in this and that?" And, you know, how, what is a, uh... "How much protein do I get from, you know, 20 ounces of broccoli," or whatever the fuck it is. You know what I mean?

Tommy Wood 44:35 Yeah. So when you look at some of the most successful trials of behavior change, and most of them are based around weight loss studies, right? That, that's, that's a very typical way to do it. Um, when you see- when, when you want somebody to change, um, their behavior and feel, feel good about it, um, one of the sort of, uh, constructs is self-determination theory. You've probably heard of, right? Humans need three things: autonomy, um, competence, and relatedness. So autonomy is the f- like, "I am in charge of my life, and I'm in charge of my decisions. So what are the things that I want to work on today," right? I have some choice there. Uh, competence, like, how do I help somebody feel like they know what they're doing? Like, a lot of the hurdles with, um, exercise or diet is, like, "I don't know what I'm doing. And, like, this guy says that I need to do sprints, and this guy says I need to lift weights, and this guy says I need to do X amounts of Zone 2, but I, like, what does that even mean?" Like-

Joe Rogan 45:33 Right

Tommy Wood 45:33 ... like, do I even know what I'm supposed to do? Like, h- so how do you build competence in people? And then relatedness, that's the point that, that you were making, right? You have a group, like, you support each other. Uh, maybe you do stuff, you do stuff together. So, um, one of the most successful weight loss trials of all time was called the Broad Study, and one of the things they did-- So they, they lost a lot of weight, and they kept it off. W- and so most weight loss studies, people reget- regain it afterwards, is they, they met several times a week. They did, like, potlucks, group activities-

Joe Rogan 46:02 Mm

Tommy Wood 46:02 ... like, they helped each other.

Joe Rogan 46:03 Yeah, community.

Tommy Wood 46:04 Yeah, community.

Joe Rogan 46:05 It's everything.

Tommy Wood 46:06 Um, the one downside of that is that there were, there were- there was, there was an app, I can't remember the name of it, that w- that tried to build that for exercise. So, like, you'd have these buddies, and they'd be your accountability buddies. But what happened was that when people started to slip, they left the platform much faster 'cause they were like: "I don't want my buddies to know that I'm not doing what they are supposed to be helping me do." So you kind of have to, like, build in multiple u- buffers and different ways to help people, depending on-

Joe Rogan 46:31 Mm

Tommy Wood 46:31 ... what it is that motivates them or not.

Joe Rogan 46:32 [lips smack] I mean, we have public education, right? We have universities, we have public high schools and middle schools. Why don't we have public gyms? Why don't-- I mean, how much money would it cost to have community gyms set up where you don't have to have money to join, where it's paid for by your taxes? You're not talking about something that's out- outside of, you know, like, f- that financially, it wouldn't be feasible.

Tommy Wood 46:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:58 It's not that hard to do.

Tommy Wood 47:00 So I think that was the... I don't know what the financial model is now, but that was the, the, the idea of, like, the YMCAs and things, right?

Joe Rogan 47:05 Right. Right, right, right.

Tommy Wood 47:05 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:06 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 47:06 So, like, it, it becomes a, um, a community focus point, like-

Joe Rogan 47:09 Uh-huh

Tommy Wood 47:10 ... um, my wife grew up in North Carolina. It's like, she talks about how they were down the YMCA all the time, like, playing basketball and like, yeah-

Joe Rogan 47:15 I used to have a YMCA-

Tommy Wood 47:16 Yeah

Joe Rogan 47:16 ... when I lived in Boston that I used to go to.

Tommy Wood 47:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:18 It was really cheap. They had weights, they had a, a track, they had all, they had a swimming pool-

Tommy Wood 47:22 Yeah

Joe Rogan 47:22 ... they had all sorts of stuff.

Tommy Wood 47:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:23 It was way cheaper than a regular gym.

Tommy Wood 47:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:25 And they had classes you could take.

Tommy Wood 47:26 Yeah, and there was something very similar close to where I, um, grew up, uh, in the UK. Just, like, for a couple of pounds, you go do a, uh, some kind of martial arts class or something similar.

Joe Rogan 47:36 Yeah, they had that, too.

Tommy Wood 47:37 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:37 Does Austin even have a YMCA? Yeah, definitely?

Speaker 47:41 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 47:41 Oh, yeah, there's one-- There's, like, a big one downtown. I've driven past it once, like, big glass front. Like, I, I mean, I don't know what it costs to go there.

Joe Rogan 47:47 How much does it cost to get into the YMCA in Austin? Let's find that out. I mean, that should be paid for by taxes.

Tommy Wood 47:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:54 Why... I mean, if we pay for all this other shit that we don't need, why don't, why don't, you know?

Tommy Wood 47:59 When, when, when a big hurdle is accessibility-

Joe Rogan 48:02 Oh, yeah

Tommy Wood 48:02 ... and-

Joe Rogan 48:03 One year, new progress pack, join today. How much? Uh, $125 value for a year? Is that what it says? How much does it cost?

Tommy Wood 48:14 Doesn't say how much it costs.

Joe Rogan 48:16 What does it cost? Join today. How much do I-

Speaker 48:18 Yeah

Joe Rogan 48:18 ... click on-

Speaker 48:18 That's also the secret of most, uh, memberships for, for gyms, they don't list their prices online.

Joe Rogan 48:23 Yeah, but it's a YMCA.

Speaker 48:24 I know.

Joe Rogan 48:24 Click on Join now, Join today.

Speaker 48:26 I'm telling you, they want you to come in and say hi, so they can talk to you.

Joe Rogan 48:29 Oh, is that what it is?

Speaker 48:30 Every w- yeah, that's how everyone works, but it's probably cheaper than most.

Joe Rogan 48:33 Well, why don't you put it into, uh, Perplexity or something like that? Say, what is, uh, how much does it cost to join a YMCA?... here we go. Let's guess, how much do you think it costs? Twenty bucks a month? Fifty?

Tommy Wood 48:46 Yeah, I, I think, yeah, it can't be much more than a Planet Fitness, right? Or else, so-

Joe Rogan 48:50 Planet Fitness is pretty cheap.

Tommy Wood 48:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:51 But the thing about Planet Fitness is, they kind of-- the, a lot of these big gyms, not just singling out p- Planet Fitness, they kind of hope that you don't show up.

Tommy Wood 48:59 Oh, yeah, yeah, that's the bit.

Joe Rogan 49:00 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 49:00 Yeah, yeah. Sign up and then-

Joe Rogan 49:00 You generally looking at forty to eighty dollars per month, depending on age and household type. That's not too bad.

Tommy Wood 49:05 Yeah, but for l- for some people, that's, that's, that's a lot of money, right? That's-

Joe Rogan 49:09 Forty bucks a month.

Tommy Wood 49:09 Yeah, like-

Joe Rogan 49:10 Yeah

Tommy Wood 49:10 ... that's, um, a good chunk of their food bill.

Joe Rogan 49:13 Mm-hmm.

Tommy Wood 49:13 So I-- there, there should be some sliding scale where this becomes very, very heavily subsidized.

Joe Rogan 49:18 Yeah!

Tommy Wood 49:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:19 But or free.

Tommy Wood 49:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:20 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 49:20 Well, ideally. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:21 I mean, why wouldn't it be free?

Tommy Wood 49:22 Yeah, it, I think it should be.

Joe Rogan 49:23 But then homeless people go in there and shower.

Speaker 49:25 There are-

Tommy Wood 49:25 Well, I mean, I'm okay with that too.

Joe Rogan 49:27 Depends on who they are.

Tommy Wood 49:29 I mean, if they shower-

Joe Rogan 49:30 I'm not okay with some of them, [chuckles] you know, fucking crazy people shitting in the sup, the, in the, in the shower. Uh, Blue Cross Blue Shield, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. "Many health insurance plans offer gym membership, uh, through reimbursements, discounts, or programs like Active Fit or Global Fit. Benefits can include twenty to four hundred dollars annu- annual reimbursements."

Speaker 49:51 Yeah, so some people-

Joe Rogan 49:51 Okay

Speaker 49:51 ... can use their health insurance to get some of that fee covered.

Joe Rogan 49:55 Okay.

Tommy Wood 49:55 Okay.

Joe Rogan 49:55 Well, that's nice. But the thing is, again, it's just like Planet Fitness or any of these places, the, the thing is, like, they wanna recruit you, and then you go, and you're like, "Okay," and then you never go again.

Tommy Wood 50:06 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:06 Yeah. So-

Tommy Wood 50:07 But we, but we genuinely want people to go. Like that's the-

Joe Rogan 50:10 Right

Tommy Wood 50:10 ... that's the whole idea.

Joe Rogan 50:11 Well, the thing is, like, there's one thing, like, for someone, and I've taken friends to gyms before that don't work out, and they're like: "What do I do?"

Tommy Wood 50:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:17 They have no idea what to do.

Tommy Wood 50:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:19 Classes.

Tommy Wood 50:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:20 Classes is what it should be.

Tommy Wood 50:21 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 50:22 It should be classes.

Tommy Wood 50:23 Like-

Joe Rogan 50:23 Yeah

Tommy Wood 50:23 ... learn a new skill-

Joe Rogan 50:24 Right

Tommy Wood 50:24 ... move, make a friend. Like, so much amazing stuff happens in that process-

Joe Rogan 50:28 Yeah

Tommy Wood 50:28 ... I think. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:29 Yeah, and, and they should have multiple different classes available-

Tommy Wood 50:32 Yeah

Joe Rogan 50:32 ... at the same time, right?

Tommy Wood 50:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:34 There should be a class for people that have done nothing. Like, okay, these are dumbbells.

Tommy Wood 50:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:39 This is a-- pick up a light one, I'm gonna show you how to do a shoulder press. And then it should be for, you know, more advanced people, intermediate people-

Tommy Wood 50:46 Yeah

Joe Rogan 50:46 ... something.

Tommy Wood 50:47 And a whole, whole range of different skills, yoga, Zumba, Pilates, tai chi.

Speaker 50:52 Slightly different-

Tommy Wood 50:53 Yeah

Speaker 50:53 ... not dumbbell weights, but in Austin, they have a bunch of, uh, public, free gym equipment in different parks.

Joe Rogan 51:00 Playgrounds and parks.

Tommy Wood 51:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:01 Yeah, that stuff's great. Well, and New York City has a whole... Look at these guys.

Speaker 51:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:05 Look, just staring at each other, talking shit. [chuckles]

Tommy Wood 51:08 The, I, I think one of the problems is that, um... Well, first of all, like, a lot of people might just, like, look at that and be like-

Joe Rogan 51:14 "What do I do?"

Tommy Wood 51:14 ... "What do I do with that?" And then the, the second is that, uh, a lot of what we see around fitness and movement is kind of the extremes, right? They're idolized, professional athletes, like, this is what the best of the best do. And we often-- we internalize this idea that that's what we need to do, and if we're not doing that, then we're not doing anything.

Joe Rogan 51:33 Right.

Tommy Wood 51:34 Whereas all the data suggests that literally any type of movement above what you're doing right now is beneficial. Cardiovascular health, um, cognitive health, dementia risk.

Joe Rogan 51:44 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 51:44 So I, I think some of it is just, like, letting people know and having people understand that it doesn't take that much to move the needle. And then when they start to do a little bit, right, you, you get, get a bit of a bug, maybe you enjoy it, you find a thing that you enjoy, you do more of it. And so, uh, that, that's part of it too, like, having people understand that it doesn't take that much to really start, you know, having, having an impact.

Joe Rogan 52:07 Yeah, and it's also, uh, for a lot of people, this is a, a society that really emphasizes quick fixes on-

Tommy Wood 52:14 Yeah

Joe Rogan 52:15 ... things, and it's not a quick thing. It's a-- you have to trust in a process, and so that has to sort of be... That has to be edu- people have to be educated to that. It has to be taught to you, like, "This is a process."

Tommy Wood 52:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:28 "And you're on a process, you should feel very excited about being on this process. It, it's gonna be weird because it's gonna take a long time before you see any results. But that long time, like, in that, in that time period, you will eventually see results, and then you'll be excited, you'll feel better, you'll have more energy, it'll help every aspect of your life. You just gotta do it."

Tommy Wood 52:49 One of the, one of the things that I, I like when I talk about movement in particular, or exercise, and say, cognitive function, is that you'll start to see benefits relatively quickly. So if you go and do a six-second max sprint a couple of times, right? And there are studies that show this. You will acutely, like, immediately see an improvement in cognitive function. Better blood flow to the brain, you've created arousal, which is really important for focus and attention. Um, if you, you know, go out, go for a walk outside, right? You will sleep better that night, so you'll feel better the next day. And so, yes, you're absolutely right that this is a lifelong thing, right? You can't just do it for a couple of months and then hope that it's gonna translate to benefits for decades to come. But you can see immediate benefits if you start to do some of this stuff, and you can, and you can feel it very quickly. So I, I think that that's, that's gonna be important because not everybody is gonna inv- is gonna feel in the position to invest in their future selves.

Joe Rogan 53:55 Right.

Tommy Wood 53:55 Right? So if, if you start to see benefits straight away, you're more likely to keep going with it.

Joe Rogan 54:01 Okay, so that's for people... We're, we were just-- I mean, I'm glad we covered it, but we're essentially talking about people that don't know what to do.

Tommy Wood 54:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:08 For people who do know what to do, you said you work with a lot of Formula 1 athletes.

Tommy Wood 54:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:11 And what do you do for, like, what is... Formula 1 is fascinating to me. I've been to the, um, the COTA racetrack.

Tommy Wood 54:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:19 We're actually putting up a studio. We're gonna have a studio at COTA.

Tommy Wood 54:22 Okay.

Joe Rogan 54:22 We're gonna have a second studio-

Tommy Wood 54:23 Yeah

Joe Rogan 54:24 ... at the racetrack.

Tommy Wood 54:24 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:25 And the idea is to take people around the racetrack. I think it would, like, stimulate their mind-

Tommy Wood 54:28 Uh-huh [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 54:29 ... and then come in and do a podcast.

Tommy Wood 54:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:30 It'd be a lot of fun.

Tommy Wood 54:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:31 Right? It'd be like, you'd be, like, racing.

Tommy Wood 54:32 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 54:32 Like, your mind would be like, "Whoo!"

Tommy Wood 54:34 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 54:34 Um, that is an incredible sport where it's fractions of a second, split-second decisions. Your ability to react has to be, like, incredibly fast. Like, have you ever seen the thing where they drop things-

Tommy Wood 54:50 Oh, yeah

Joe Rogan 54:50 ... and they have to-

Tommy Wood 54:50 And they have to, like, grab them

Joe Rogan 54:51 ... Lewis Hamilton is, like, better at anybody, than anybody at it.

Tommy Wood 54:53 Oh, yeah, of course.

Joe Rogan 54:53 He's just fucking [chuckles] -

Tommy Wood 54:54 Uh-huh

Joe Rogan 54:55 ... intense. Um, so-... what do you do with them? So you already have people that are primed, right? They're the best in the world.

Tommy Wood 55:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:03 But they are constantly looking for an additional edge. What are you doing for them?

Tommy Wood 55:07 Yeah, so there's, um, a, a f- a few things there. Um, my work with Formula 1 drivers happens mainly through a company called Hintsa Performance. Uh, it was founded by Aki Hintsa-

Joe Rogan 55:17 What is it? Hint to Performance?

Tommy Wood 55:18 H- H- Hintsa, H-I-N-T-S-A, um, named after Aki Hintsa, who was a Finnish orthopedic surgeon. He worked with Haile Gebrselassie, with Mika Häkkinen, he was a two-time Formula 1 world champion. And then now, this is like a big sports enterprise, and I'm their head of-- head scientist for motorsport. So that's all, uh, motorsport categories from, like, karting and kids up to, up to Formula 1, and we work with several Formula 1 drivers. And we, uh, provide coaching and medical services. Each driver, or most of the drivers, have a coach, right? So, like, you know, when you watch Formula 1, there's, like, somebody holding the umbrella, holding the helmet, right? That's, that's usually, uh-- well, that's often one of our coaches. They're usually, uh, a strength and conditioning specialist, or they might be a physio or a nutritionist. Like, they, they have a ton of, you know, really high-level skills, and they're there every day, right? They do the sleep, they do the training. Like, they're traveling with them the whole time. They sort of can manage as much of their, of their life as possible. And when you're thinking about that level of, of skill, the, the stimulus part has, has taken care of itself, right? One of the reasons why these guys are so good is because it's all they've done every day for, uh, over two-plus decades. Four decades, if you're, if you're Lewis Hamilton, or close to that. So-- and that's slowly building these skills, first in karting, then in these different formula categories, Formula 3, Formula 2, um, up into, up into Formula 1. And so, the kinds of things that we might work on... And so, like, I'm helping the coaches, working with the drivers. We have, like, a, a, uh, a, a huge team, um, you know, a doctor who's, uh, who works with a bunch of Olympic athletes as well. And so it's, it's a combination of, are there any individual performance limiters? So we might do some blood tests, look at nutrient status and various other things, um, you know, make sure they're, they're really on top of that with their, with their diets. Um, but then in that kind of world, and like, I'm sure you experience this yourself, everybody's got a thing for you to try or a thing for you to do, right? Like, you're constantly being bombarded with the latest, greatest technology, and, like, this guy wants to sell you this thing. So a lot of what we do is, like, be really careful about the things that get added, and maybe even t- like, take stuff away if we need to. Like, what are we t- what are we trying to work on? What are we trying to build? What does this one driver need? 'Cause they're all very, they're all very different. They need a, a different s- you know, uh, they have different, uh, diets, they have different training programs, they have different, um, warm-up, uh, strategies for when they get in the car. Um, and so a lot of what we end up doing is focusing on, on the other side, right? So if you s- stimulate your brain, it adapts when you rest and recover afterwards. So because they're essentially jet-lagged nine months of the year, uh, right, they're in a different country every, every week-

Joe Rogan 58:23 Mm.

Tommy Wood 58:23 Um-

Joe Rogan 58:23 That's a factor, right?

Tommy Wood 58:24 Yeah. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 58:25 That's a huge factor.

Tommy Wood 58:25 Huge factor. And, like, on top of, like, every race weekend, they've got to go meet sponsors, they've got to do media days, right? They're constantly moving. So it's, what can we do to maintain their level of performance throughout the season? And this is something that the coaches do a ton of work in. Like, how can we-- what kind of exercise, and, and how can we do targeted training to, like, maintain performance throughout the, throughout the year? And then the other part is: how can we get as much recovery as possible? Because if we want them to adapt to all the work they're doing and come back each weekend at, at the top of their game, or as close as possible, we need to get them to rest and recover, and come back and do it again. So often, we're not focusing on the stimulus part. We might be in, uh, driver training. We might be thinking about, how can we develop cognitive skills, and these kinds of things, and these driver physical skills. In, um, in Formula 1, often it's, how can we get these guys to recover better? How can we get these guys to sleep better? Um, and then that, that might be, uh, technology, but it might also be, you know, just like, how can we nail the basics again and again and again? Make sure they're getting enough time in bed, right? Especially when you're traveling a bunch, that gets re- that gets really difficult. So we're often focused on the r- on the recovery side and how we track, like, how do we collect those data? How do we know when something's starting to slip and get on top of it early? Um, that's the kind of stuff we tend to focus on.

Joe Rogan 59:42 So let's talk about the jet lag aspect. What are the strategies for mitigating jet, jet lag? And, like, how do you... When, like, s- let's say if they fly in for a race-

Tommy Wood 59:53 Mm.

Joe Rogan 59:53 -like, if they're going from Europe to the United States, and they have to race, how many days in advance do they arrive, and how do they shift their circadian rhythm and e- eliminate jet lag? What are the strategies?

Tommy Wood 1:00:06 Yeah. Um, there's-- the, the, the time e- for them, like, the, the number of days they come before the race will, will depend on how long it was since the last race, plus what other things they've got going on. But they'll-- it's often, like, two or three days, right? They'll, they'll try and get it, get come in the beginning of the week, at least, like Monday, Tuesday, if the race is then gonna be on Sunday. And then, as much as possible, you might start to try and shift things earlier. So shift your light exposure so that it aligns more closely with your destination a couple of days before you travel. Uh, shift your sleep, if you can. Shift, um, exercise and caffeine timing. Again, because those things, um, shift circadian rhythm, so that, so you can kind of get closer to, to what, what you're gonna do when you land. Um, and so those are, those are the probably the primary tools is, um, exercise, light, caffeine. You can use, um, some of them use m- melatonin. Um, but-... you can also change, uh, when you eat. So like, um, food timing is a zeitgeber. It's a fancy word for, like, time giver, like, helps to drive circadian rhythm. So, um, often when you're f- when you're flying, they'll give you a meal that's happening, like, in the middle of the night in the time that you're gonna land, right? So often you might try and avoid eating while flying, and then have your next meal in time with, like, a normal meal timing when, when you land.

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 I've heard that one of the things to help with jet lag is just eliminate meals when you're flying, period.

Tommy Wood 1:01:40 And-

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 That there's something about eating, even if it doesn't have anything to do with the, the time zone.

Tommy Wood 1:01:44 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 Like, say, if you're flying from Los Angeles to New York-

Tommy Wood 1:01:48 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:01:48 ... one way to eliminate jet lag, they say, is just to not eat on the flight.

Tommy Wood 1:01:52 So you-

Joe Rogan 1:01:52 Six-hour flight-

Tommy Wood 1:01:53 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:01:53 ... don't eat at all.

Tommy Wood 1:01:55 Usually, uh, I think most of that is to do with circadian, circadian timing. Uh, because you're usually flying at a time when you wouldn't normally eat, or like, you're often, like, they give you dinner at, like, 9:00 pm or it's even midnight, right? So if you... See-

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 But is that all it is? Because what- but the way it was explained to me-

Tommy Wood 1:02:13 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 ... is that just there's something about your body processing food when you're flying that actually exacerbates jet lag.

Tommy Wood 1:02:22 So I can't think of a, you know, other than the fact that-

Joe Rogan 1:02:24 Does that make sense?

Tommy Wood 1:02:25 Other, other than the fact that, I mean, you're obviously, you know, sat still for long periods of time, which might not normally happen at that time of day as well. Um, I think the ma- the majority of it in terms- but certainly in terms of jet lag plans, is thinking about the timing of meals relative to circadian rhythm. Because you normally, you know, break your fast at, fast at a certain time of day, have dinner at a certain time of day. So I think most of it is related to circadian timing.

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 Okay. Um, what about rigorous exercise? 'Cause one of my strategies, like, say, if I have to fly to London or something like that, and I wanna avoid jet lag, I immediately go to the gym.

Tommy Wood 1:02:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:58 That's the first thing I do. I put my stuff in the hotel room, I go right down to the gym-

Tommy Wood 1:03:02 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 ... no negotiation whatsoever, and I get in at least an hour.

Tommy Wood 1:03:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 I, I have to.

Tommy Wood 1:03:07 That's a, that's a great way, that's a great way to, um, to, to help to offset some of the jet lag.

Joe Rogan 1:03:12 Well-

Tommy Wood 1:03:12 'Cause you, you start to tell your body, "Oh, hey," like, even though it's, whatever, midnight in Austin, right? This is the time when I wanna be awake. So it starts to advance the circadian phase. So exercise. Uh, some people like to do, um, cold exposure, right? It does a similar thing, right? Increases adrenaline, increases heart rate, increases arousal. Um, can do it with light, can do it with caffeine, and so, like, some combination of those things can definitely help.

Joe Rogan 1:03:36 Um, okay. So there's the sleep, adjusting the sleep, there's the light exposure, there's exercise and food. Is there anything else? Like, what, what kind of supplementation is effective to mitigate that?

Tommy Wood 1:03:48 Yeah, so, um, they might u- they might use melatonin. Um, one of the, one of the issues that we have-- it's not an issue, it, it, it makes perfect sense, is that, um, the, the supplements that we use with the drivers have to be third-party tested, right? NSF Sport certified-

Joe Rogan 1:04:07 Yeah

Tommy Wood 1:04:07 ... or informed, Informed Sport certified. So some of the things that we might like to try-

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 Is that because the drivers get tested?

Tommy Wood 1:04:12 Because the drivers get tested, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 And what do they ban? What's banned?

Tommy Wood 1:04:15 Everything. It's the same as WADA, it's like, like all the WADA-

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 Well-

Tommy Wood 1:04:17 ... all the WADA drug, uh, drugs-

Joe Rogan 1:04:19 Oh, okay. Okay

Tommy Wood 1:04:20 ... it's the same. They're under WADA regulations. So, um-

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 Are they allowed to use peptides?

Tommy Wood 1:04:26 Um, it's, it's, it's a grey area. In general, I don't believe, I don't believe anybody does, and we certainly don't recom- uh, recommend it for, for that reason, 'cause we just don't know what's in there.

Joe Rogan 1:04:35 Are they tested for peptides?

Tommy Wood 1:04:37 Um, so they're not tested for peptides, but-

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 Then there you go.

Tommy Wood 1:04:41 [chuckles] Uh, well, it-

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 [laughing]

Tommy Wood 1:04:44 ... that's, it, you know, it depends on whether there's, there's actually a peptide that has good, high-quality evidence in humans.

Joe Rogan 1:04:49 Well, there's-

Tommy Wood 1:04:49 Uh

Joe Rogan 1:04:49 ... also, you should get them from a real good compounding pharmacy.

Tommy Wood 1:04:52 Yeah. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 Make sure you're getting it from a quality source. Which is, the real problem with peptides today is that since they're not regulated, there's a lot of grey market. There's a lot of real, you know, bullshit corporations that are selling you stuff that's nonsense-

Tommy Wood 1:05:04 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 ... and even things that are tainted.

Tommy Wood 1:05:06 So yeah, so, so, so the main thing that you're, you're worried about is contamination.

Joe Rogan 1:05:10 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:05:10 Like, what else have they put in there-

Joe Rogan 1:05:11 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:05:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:12 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:05:12 To make it f- to, to, to get better performance.

Joe Rogan 1:05:14 Same thing as supplements.

Tommy Wood 1:05:15 Yeah, same thing as supplements. But in reality, like, there aren't many peptides where I'm like, where I would say-- or actually, I couldn't think of any, where I'm like, "This will have a d- a definite benefit based on high-quality studies in humans," right? Those studies just don't exist. Um, and so until we get to that point, plus the, the sort of like the, the, the, the grey area of the, the sort of legality of it-

Joe Rogan 1:05:41 Mm-hmm

Tommy Wood 1:05:42 ... um, we, we tend to focus on, you know, the real-- I mean, it's the basics, but we know that they work.

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 But there are peptides that have shown to increase sleep and increase REM sleep.

Tommy Wood 1:05:55 In humans?

Joe Rogan 1:05:55 Yes.

Tommy Wood 1:05:56 Like which ones?

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 In humans. Oh, I wish I could tell you, because they, uh, they talked about it, but I never tried it. Um, I know Tom Segura is on it. Um, see if we can find what it is, Jamie. It's, uh... Boy, [fingers drumming] it's fucking with my head.

Speaker 1:06:09 GSIP?

Joe Rogan 1:06:11 Is that what it is?

Speaker 1:06:11 I'm asking.

Joe Rogan 1:06:12 No, um-

Speaker 1:06:13 Delta sleep-inducing peptide, uh-

Tommy Wood 1:06:16 Well, I, like, I w- I wanna see the randomized controlled trial.

Speaker 1:06:19 Melanin.

Tommy Wood 1:06:19 I have to. I, like, I can't rec- I, I couldn't recommend it unless I know that it's third-party tested, it's legal, and there's a high-quality trial in humans. Like, all those things have to align.

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 The high quality-

Tommy Wood 1:06:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:29 The problem with high-quality studies is they take time and money.

Tommy Wood 1:06:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:32 And these aren't FDA-approved, so you're not gonna get those things, but that doesn't mean they don't work.

Tommy Wood 1:06:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:37 And this is the problem, is that, like, you could try it, and then if you show benefit, like, whether-

Tommy Wood 1:06:43 In that, in that setting, I can't try it.

Joe Rogan 1:06:45 You can't?

Tommy Wood 1:06:46 No.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Well, you can't because of Formula 1 drivers-

Tommy Wood 1:06:48 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:06:48 ... and all that stuff.

Tommy Wood 1:06:49 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:50 But, like-

Tommy Wood 1:06:50 So I, I mean, if-

Joe Rogan 1:06:50 ... with, uh, the way drug-free sport works, which is the governing body of the UFC, uh, drug testing-

Tommy Wood 1:06:56 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 ... um, this, they, they don't allow anything, unfortunately.

Tommy Wood 1:06:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:59 But there are studies that show that BPC 157 includes, in- increases tissue recovery and helps you heal from-

Tommy Wood 1:07:05 Not, not in humans

Joe Rogan 1:07:06 ... true. [chuckles] But there's-- look, the same thing with the COVID vaccine. They weren't tested in humans either before they started trying them.

Tommy Wood 1:07:13 Um, I-- there were some, there was, for the, the first wave of COVID-19 vaccines, there were some, some pretty good quality trials in humans.

Joe Rogan 1:07:19 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:07:20 Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:07:20 But all it showed is that it showed an antibody. It didn't show that it-

Tommy Wood 1:07:23 Oh, no, the, against hospitalizations and death. In, in, in the fir- in the fir- in the first waves.

Joe Rogan 1:07:28 That we could argue about that-

Tommy Wood 1:07:29 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 ... because it's very sketchy.

Tommy Wood 1:07:31 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:07:31 It's very sketchy data that has been disproven.

Tommy Wood 1:07:34 I think that those, I, uh, I think those first waves were high quality. Um, I don't think-

Joe Rogan 1:07:39 But they didn't even-

Tommy Wood 1:07:39 I don't think we've seen as-

Joe Rogan 1:07:40 They didn't even say that it increased-

Tommy Wood 1:07:41 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:07:41 ... decreased, uh, hospitalization and death. It was stopping transmission and infection, which was just a lie. So-

Tommy Wood 1:07:48 So the-- Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:07:49 ... that's what they claimed.

Tommy Wood 1:07:50 That I, I think now that-

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 So it's all sketchy because it was based on profit. It, it, the whole thing is weird. It's a weird one.

Tommy Wood 1:07:56 I-

Joe Rogan 1:07:56 It's a weird one to cover.

Tommy Wood 1:07:57 I can't, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:07:59 We don't have to talk about that.

Tommy Wood 1:07:59 I can't, yeah, I can't talk about my decision.

Joe Rogan 1:08:00 Maybe it's not a good example.

Tommy Wood 1:08:01 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:02 But with... Uh, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence, uh, especially with professional athletes, with BPC 157 and TB 500, particularly for tissue injuries, for recovering quicker from tissue injuries.

Tommy Wood 1:08:14 So I know, I know there's anecdote. I know that people say it benefits them. Um, in the environments that I operate in, that's not enough.

Joe Rogan 1:08:24 I understand.

Tommy Wood 1:08:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 You're an actual doctor. [laughing] You're Dr. Tommy Wood. He's legit. I'm just a dork. I'm allowed to just say, "Try it! Fuck it." Um, but so, uh, with drug-free support, um, uh, like with the UFC, they're, they use Thorne supplements-

Tommy Wood 1:08:41 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:08:41 ... it's what the UFC recommends-

Tommy Wood 1:08:42 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:08:42 ... which are very good-

Tommy Wood 1:08:43 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 ... third-party tested.

Tommy Wood 1:08:43 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:08:44 But so you have to find whether it's pure encapsulations or some legitimate, well-proven, established company-

Tommy Wood 1:08:50 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:08:50 ... that provides you with th- third-party tested supplements.

Tommy Wood 1:08:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:53 What supplements have been shown, like, for-- I would... Let's stick with Formula 1 drivers. Reaction time is critical. Um, your, your ability to function at a, a very high cognitive state, right?

Tommy Wood 1:09:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:07 You're, you're thinking constantly, you're always calculating-

Tommy Wood 1:09:09 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:09:09 ... movements.

Tommy Wood 1:09:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:10 What supplements are these guys taking that benefit them?

Tommy Wood 1:09:14 So the-- Wh- when you think about complex skill performance, and, like, there's a, there's, like, a whole chapter on this in, in the book. The, the most important driver is ar- arousal, right? How aroused is your physiology, and are you set up with the right level of sympathetic activation, noradrenaline, adrenaline, cortisol, to kind of get the, the, the best level of performance?

Joe Rogan 1:09:46 And don't let any one of those overwhelm the other ones.

Tommy Wood 1:09:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:48 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:09:48 Yeah, exactly. So the, the, the curve is bell-shaped, right? It's the Yerkes-Dodson curve, named after a couple of guys who actually did studies in mice, um, that then translated actually surprisingly well over to humans. Um, and so what it says is that, if you're sort of under-aroused, you're kind of disengaged, a bit lethargic, right? You're, you're not really gonna perform well. If you're over-aroused, you're sweaty, anxious, right? Again, you're not gonna be able to sort of pay attention to the task. So there's this sweet spot. At the top of the curve, you're capable of flow states, clutch states, which is where you can perform at your best, but it's still like, it's, it's hard work. Um, and so what you're trying to do is get the guys to the top of that curve. Um, and this, for many, involves some element of routine, right? Knowing that I've done the thing that I know that's gonna make me feel good. And so it's a combination, often of the things that we've already mentioned. They might use, um, some warm-up sprints, they might use music, they might use bright light, they might use breathwork, um, they might use cold. Um, certainly, if it, if it's gonna be a, a hot race, they might, um, do some pre, pre-cooling, uh, to bring down core temperature. That improves endurance-

Joe Rogan 1:10:54 Oh, do they bring-

Tommy Wood 1:10:54 ... during the race

Joe Rogan 1:10:55 like, cold plunges to Formula 1 days?

Tommy Wood 1:10:57 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 1:10:58 Ooh, that's smart!

Tommy Wood 1:10:58 So some of them have a, some of them have a, a, like a, a cold plunge or, you know, you, you can, you can fill out a wheelie bin with, uh, water and ice and jump in that. Um, it doesn't need to be that cold, actually. So for, um, increasing endurance performance, like 20 minutes at around 20 degrees Celsius, or like 60-ish, um, Fahrenheit, that significantly improves, um, like endurance significantly.

Joe Rogan 1:11:20 Is there a benefit to 20 minutes at 60 degrees, uh, Fahrenheit, versus three minutes at 34 degrees?

Tommy Wood 1:11:28 So the, the problem is that when you get too cold, you can actually, um, decrease cognitive performance. So there's a, there's a fine line when it's really cold, that what you wanna do is you wanna decrease core temperature without negatively affecting cognitive function. And so that's easier to manage at h- at slightly less cold temperatures.

Joe Rogan 1:11:48 Oh, I see, I see.

Tommy Wood 1:11:49 Um, because just like if you did really, really exhaustive exercise, right? You go out, um, and so I was a rower, uh, in college, so like a, a 2K test on a rowing machine. Like, after that, my brain doesn't work for like-

Joe Rogan 1:11:59 Right

Tommy Wood 1:11:59 ... hours afterwards.

Joe Rogan 1:12:00 Right, right.

Tommy Wood 1:12:00 And so, like, very, um, you know, very cold ice baths for several minutes, for some people, that can decrease cognitive function. So you, you can find a sweet spot. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:12:11 That makes sense. That, that makes a lot of sense because, um, my mind is very bad after brutal workouts.

Tommy Wood 1:12:18 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:18 Like, if I, if I have a really hard workout and I come in and do a podcast, there's, there's a moment where I'm like, "Um, uh..." [chuckles] It's just not firing.

Tommy Wood 1:12:26 Yeah. Yeah, and that, and that's perfect, and that's, that's, that's normal. We know that.

Joe Rogan 1:12:29 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:12:29 If you do very fatiguing exercise for a period of time, you experience a decline in cognitive function.

Joe Rogan 1:12:34 But a light exercise stimulates you.

Tommy Wood 1:12:36 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:12:36 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:12:37 So, like, one of the best, um, studied, um, exercise modalities to improve cognitive function is literally just like a 20-minute jog, right?

Joe Rogan 1:12:45 Mm.

Tommy Wood 1:12:45 It's like-

Joe Rogan 1:12:46 Just a light jog.

Tommy Wood 1:12:47 Exactly. But you're just kind of warming everything up, you know, increasing sympathetic activation, increasing release of all those, um, hormones you mentioned, and that increases arousal, that im- that improves cognitive performance. So they might be doing some of those things. Um, in the car, right, there, there'll be differing types of caffeine use, um, depending on sensitivity and, and timing.

Joe Rogan 1:13:05 Are they taking it in pill form so that they can regulate it quickly or, uh-

Tommy Wood 1:13:10 Uh

Joe Rogan 1:13:10 ... accurately, rather?

Tommy Wood 1:13:11 Uh, yeah. So, um, some do, sometimes pills, sometimes gels, some guys just like a cappuccino. Some might use like green tea because, like, the theanine in there might-... balance some of, like, the jitters that you can get with caffeine. Um, some, uh, some people find creatine, um, stimulating or mildly stimulating, so they might take creatine before they get in the car.

Joe Rogan 1:13:31 Well, there's been studies on creatine and cognitive performance-

Tommy Wood 1:13:33 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:13:33 ... that are really interesting.

Tommy Wood 1:13:34 Particularly in the setting of sleep deprivation.

Joe Rogan 1:13:36 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:13:36 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:36 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:13:36 And so when they're jet lagged, um, like I think that, that, that one makes sense. There are some newer, um, caffeine-related compounds, that if we can get them when they're, um, third-party tested, you know, some may try those. So, uh, theacrine or teaCrine and paraxanthine, which is a, a metabolite of caffeine. Um, some of-- they, they may have some fewer of the like anxiety-promoting, high blood pressure, high heart rate effects, but maintain some of the cognitive effects, especially in combination with caffeine.

Joe Rogan 1:14:07 Mm-hmm.

Tommy Wood 1:14:07 So you have a little bit less caffeine, plus a bit of those. They're harder to get sort of third-party tested and stuff, but-- and the, some of the evidence is newer. Um, but that, that's looking sort of promising as, as another thing that, that people might try.

Joe Rogan 1:14:20 You mentioned theanine-

Tommy Wood 1:14:21 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:14:21 ... which is a, a nootropic. There's quite a few different ones that people enjoy.

Tommy Wood 1:14:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:14:26 You know, um, [lips smack] uh, beta choline, there's a, a bunch of different ones. Like do, do Formula 1 drivers, do they supplement with that kind of thing?

Tommy Wood 1:14:35 So, um, so you're thinking like alpha GPC? Like the-

Joe Rogan 1:14:38 Yes.

Tommy Wood 1:14:38 Yeah, yeah. So like a-

Joe Rogan 1:14:39 Yeah

Tommy Wood 1:14:39 ... uh, uh, it's a choline, type of choline-

Joe Rogan 1:14:41 Yeah

Tommy Wood 1:14:42 ... that's like, uh, it's preferentially, uh, turned into acetylcholine. Um, and acetylcholine is really im- important for like focus and attention. Um, some of that stuff isn't, isn't regularly used w- like main- mainly because, um, it's hard to get a third-party tested, uh, source.

Joe Rogan 1:15:00 Is it really?

Tommy Wood 1:15:01 Yeah. Plu- plu- like most of the things that you take, there, there probably isn't a... or that anybody would take, there, there might not be a, an NSF for Sport, uh, certified version. There's very few companies that do that routinely for all their supplements.

Joe Rogan 1:15:12 God, you'd think that that would be really a- accessible-

Tommy Wood 1:15:16 Yes

Joe Rogan 1:15:16 ... because nootropics are so common now.

Tommy Wood 1:15:19 So but, uh, so there's that, plus there's the, um... when we're working with different drivers, they each have very unique needs. So it's trying to-- it's a combination of, what do I think is really gonna move the needle? And not over-correct. I think most coaches I've spoken to in Formula 1 have a story where their driver had three espressos before he got in the car, and then-

Joe Rogan 1:15:42 Mm

Tommy Wood 1:15:42 ... he overcooked the first corner.

Joe Rogan 1:15:44 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:15:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:15:44 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:15:45 Um, so it, it's a really tricky balance of trying to make sure that they can, um, systematically get in the zone to perform well in the car, without sort of pushing them too far over the other, uh, over the other side. And so that's where supplements become trickier, because it's very easy to down-regulate, um, if you've overcooked it, um, through some of those physiological means. Where I can do some breathwork or something to kind of calm myself down, but if I've like stuffed myself full of caffeine-

Joe Rogan 1:16:13 Right

Tommy Wood 1:16:13 ... it's very, it's, it's, it's gonna be hard to like come back from that, and then you sort of step in the car, and it could cause some issues. So we tend to focus on some of the physiological stuff, and then may- maybe a little bit of supplementation. Um, because that seems to be the, the sort of like best balance across those different needs.

Joe Rogan 1:16:27 Well, it seems like Formula 1 would be a great place to develop a framework for this, because there's so much money involved. It's such a massive sport-

Tommy Wood 1:16:36 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:16:37 ... and you would think that they would have that dialed in. Like, "You're 168 pounds. This is when you woke up. This is what you need right now. You need this much protein, this much this. Stop eating X amount of hours before the race."

Tommy Wood 1:16:50 So yes, um, we do a lot of that, but it's different for each guy-

Joe Rogan 1:16:56 Mm

Tommy Wood 1:16:56 ... and nobody wants to share what they've got.

Joe Rogan 1:16:58 Ah!

Tommy Wood 1:16:59 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:16:59 It's that, yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:17:00 Yeah, yeah. So like, even, even like your, you know, your biggest rival is your teammate in many respects, right? Because you're-- that's the only guy you can go up against, truly head-to-head, 'cause you're in the same car.

Joe Rogan 1:17:10 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:17:10 So yeah, you know, a lot of what we do, we have, we, um, we have to silo within a driver. Like, "This is the stuff that works for this guy, and I can't use that to help this guy," right?

Joe Rogan 1:17:21 Ah.

Tommy Wood 1:17:21 That's one reason, that's one reason why Hintsa-

Joe Rogan 1:17:24 They don't share information.

Tommy Wood 1:17:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:25 [chuckles]

Tommy Wood 1:17:25 And that's one reason why Hintsa has been very successful as a company, is because they've been... we're very good at walling this stuff off. Like, we know what's good for this guy, we know what's good for this guy, and we, we sort of leave those separate because, right, different frameworks, different approaches might be needed.

Joe Rogan 1:17:40 Well, it's such an extreme example, because any little deviation that you wouldn't normally feel in everyday life, could be disastrous-

Tommy Wood 1:17:49 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:17:50 ... in a Formula 1 race.

Tommy Wood 1:17:51 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:52 What about different things to stimulate cognitive function, like playing chess-

Tommy Wood 1:17:59 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:17:59 ... or doing-- is, is there anything that those guys engage in specifically to improve the way they think?

Tommy Wood 1:18:08 [lips smack] Again, it, it depends, uh, a little from driver to driver. Um, a lot of them like play some kind of video games-

Joe Rogan 1:18:18 Mm

Tommy Wood 1:18:18 ... which actually have, have some interesting evidence to support them in terms of-

Joe Rogan 1:18:21 That makes sense

Tommy Wood 1:18:22 ... in terms of, um, uh, improving cognitive function. I think for them, though, uh, a lot of that is, it's almost like relaxation. Like, when you drive a Formula 1 car for a living, like, playing a video game [chuckles] it's-

Joe Rogan 1:18:36 Relaxing

Tommy Wood 1:18:36 ... isn't necessarily as challenging.

Joe Rogan 1:18:38 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:18:38 Right? Um, and so a lot of it tends to be very car, car-focused, where they get tons of time in the sim- simulator. Like, during the season, they get a lot of time in the car. Um, so there's nothing that like consistently would work or that, that everybody does. I think, uh, a lot of where the cognitive training side comes from is during driver development, right? Um, how can we get more, um, sport-specific or sports- p- sport- p- supporting cognitive challenges in younger drivers as they're developing? So we might use some cognitive training tools, um, and some other things, to try and support some of those development processes. 'Cause by the time they're at the, the, the top, um, especially if you wanna maintain it-... the, the main thing that you need to do is obviously maintain those driving skills, which you'll get through, like, the day-to-day aspects of the job. Plus then, it's really continually paying attention to sustained physical health, physical performance, um, especially because of the, like, arduous schedules and all that kind of stuff. So, so often again, they're, they're focusing on the other areas because they know that will help them stay at a high level for longer.

Joe Rogan 1:19:49 So they're focused on recovery from all the unavoidable aspects that are gonna mitigate your performance?

Tommy Wood 1:19:54 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:19:55 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:19:56 So sleep, um, uh, some of them use different meditation or breathwork or o- oth- other devices, um, just to kind of help maybe like gamify it slightly, or we make it a slightly more enjoyable experience. Um, it's easier to do, easier to switch off if you're doing things related to sort of like, uh, vibration and that, that, that kind of stuff. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:20:19 You mean like pressure plates, like those standing on things?

Tommy Wood 1:20:21 Yeah, so like, um-

Joe Rogan 1:20:22 Shaky plates.

Tommy Wood 1:20:23 No, there, there's um-

Joe Rogan 1:20:25 Turbo Sonic.

Tommy Wood 1:20:26 There's a, there's a chair that, that s- that some guys use, and I mean, this is used in a ton of different sports and, like, in other military groups as well. It's called the Shiftwave. Have you heard of this?

Joe Rogan 1:20:35 Yeah, I have one.

Tommy Wood 1:20:36 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:37 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:20:37 So some of the guys, some of the guys have a Shiftwave. Um, it just kinda depends on what works well for them in terms of, like, allowing them to down-regulate, allowing them to kind of sleep, sleep better. Um, and again, we sort of often focus on the more sort of physiological, environmental side, rather than, you know, trying to, uh, throw a bunch of supplements at it.

Joe Rogan 1:20:54 Well, it seems like that's a great place to study Formula 1 drivers because you're dealing with these, like, fine lines, this, this tiny differential between success and failure.

Tommy Wood 1:21:04 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and the-- one of the interesting things is that the, sort of the perf-- the real performance stuff is kind of siloed within the team. So then, um, right, because that's related to performance in the car, and that's sensitive information. So a lot of the time we're kind of thinking about-- and, and this actually across most sports, the, the best predictor of performance is sub- is subjective well-being. How does the athlete feel?

Joe Rogan 1:21:33 Mm.

Tommy Wood 1:21:33 How-- And, and so, like, there are tons of studies even, like, coming out now. Like, you compare that to blood tests and HRV and all this other kind of stuff. How they feel, am I tired? Am I achy? Um, do I feel alert? Uh, you know, all that kind of stuff, that seems to predict performance really well. So how can we... Or, or, and, and better some of those other-- better than some of those other things. The best is a combination as much as possible, but so, so we do a lot of, uh, work aggregating data. But then really the rest of the time is: How can I make sure this guy feels good every day, right, and feels confident when he gets in the car? And so then we have psychologists that are a big part of that, plus, like, keeping an eye on their body and all that, you know, all those sort of things to sort of put them in the best spot possible when they get in the car.

Joe Rogan 1:22:17 Do you coach them to avoid toxic relationships? [chuckles]

Tommy Wood 1:22:19 [chuckles] I'm not, I'm not sure if anybody's ever gotten into that. There are-

Joe Rogan 1:22:24 For fighters-

Tommy Wood 1:22:25 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:22:25 ... it is, like, the, one of the number one predictors-

Tommy Wood 1:22:27 Uh-huh

Joe Rogan 1:22:28 ... of poor success in a, in a competition. I've, I've seen it over and over again, guys with horrible relationships.

Tommy Wood 1:22:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:35 You know, whoever's fault it is, both fault, both parties, whatever it is, but those are the ones, like when they have, like, really bad relationships. Like, there was this one guy that I know that, um, was a really high performer, very good fighter, but he had this crazy girlfriend, and, um, she required so much, so much attention that it would drive her nuts when he was getting ready for a fight-

Tommy Wood 1:22:56 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:22:57 ... because he was spending all his time concentrating on the fight, and it would peak literally the night before the fight.

Tommy Wood 1:23:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:23:02 Like, their relationship was so toxic, she would always start fights, and all the coaches knew it. She would start fights after he weighed in because he was so locked in on the fight the next day that he wasn't paying attention to her.

Tommy Wood 1:23:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:14 So she would storm out of the hotel room and go down to the bar by herself, and he would freak out, and he would always wind up performing poorly.

Tommy Wood 1:23:21 I, at least I personally haven't seen the evidence of that in that, in that world. Um, I will say that-

Joe Rogan 1:23:27 Fighters are kind of crazy, though.

Tommy Wood 1:23:29 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:23:29 It's a, it's a, it's an interesting group to study-

Tommy Wood 1:23:31 Oh-

Joe Rogan 1:23:32 ... because it's a very bizarre activity-

Tommy Wood 1:23:34 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:23:34 ... to begin with.

Tommy Wood 1:23:35 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:35 You know, it's-- the way I describe it is high-level problem solving with dire physical consequences.

Tommy Wood 1:23:41 [chuckles] Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:41 And, you know-

Tommy Wood 1:23:42 Although y- you could say that Formula 1 is, is similar in that respect, right? Um-

Joe Rogan 1:23:47 Very similar.

Tommy Wood 1:23:48 The, there are, there are certainly... You know, a lot of drivers come into, into the sport with a, it's often driven by family relationships. So, so I think that that may may be an influence sometimes, right?

Joe Rogan 1:24:00 Oh, overbearing parents are another one.

Tommy Wood 1:24:01 Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:24:01 Coaches, other overbearing fathers, coaches.

Tommy Wood 1:24:03 Yeah, yeah, so they come in with this long-

Joe Rogan 1:24:05 Yeah

Tommy Wood 1:24:05 ... history of, right, of, of like what got them there.

Joe Rogan 1:24:07 Uh-huh.

Tommy Wood 1:24:08 Um, so may, so maybe that affects some of them. I'm not sure.

Joe Rogan 1:24:11 Um, what are the most challenging athletes? You, you, I've, uh, assume you've dealt with a bunch of different athletes from various sports. What are the most challenging ones to deal with?

Tommy Wood 1:24:22 The, the one-- I think the ones that I found most challenging, uh, are, it's usually because they're pulled in so many different directions that it's, it becomes difficult for them to, like, really engage in the, in the things that we know are gonna, is, is gonna help them perform long term. Um, and so as, uh-- and, like, I have friends who work in the NBA, for instance, where I think this is amplified even more, right? You have teenage millionaires who can literally do whatever they want, right?

Joe Rogan 1:24:58 Mm.

Tommy Wood 1:24:59 But you have to, like, keep them on, on task, and we see that in a lot of professional sports. And so it's that, it's that kind of stuff, is what's, um, distracting them? What are the other things that they're doing that's stopping them from being able to engage in these processes? Um, and so you, you can have, like, really good conversations and put together really good plans, and, like, in the moment, they're really engaged, and they're interested, and, right, they want to do well, right? This is their job, and they love it. But-... when other things start to come into play outside of that conversation, they don't engage with things, they don't do it, they don't see the, the results that they want, they get demotivated. But it's usually because, like, other things in their life, right? Could be like the toxic relationships, but it tends to be other, other distractors-

Joe Rogan 1:25:47 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:25:47 -that kind of, um, pull, pull them away from that, that sort of like core goal.

Joe Rogan 1:25:51 Uh, unfortunately, success is a big one, right?

Tommy Wood 1:25:53 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:25:54 Because the motivation to succeed in the first place is you want financial gain, you want recognition, you want all these things that you're chasing after, and then once you get them, now what?

Tommy Wood 1:26:05 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and some, some, some people, like, maintain, like, really dedi-- they, they maintain dedication to the craft. Like, "This is the thing that I love, and I wanna do it every day," and, like, the longer you do it, the more you have to take care of, like, the little details. Like, early on in your career, you can train however you want, eat however you want. If you have a certain set of skills and training up to that point, you get-- you'll, you'll do pretty well. But you wanna s- you wanna sustain that-

Joe Rogan 1:26:33 Right

Tommy Wood 1:26:33 ... for a very long period of time. It requires an increasing amount of dedication to the, to the other areas of your life to make sure that you can still do that. Um, and I think sometimes people just aren't honest with themselves in terms of what they really want to do or what they, what they're gonna spend their time doing. So that, that's the, that's the most frustrating, um, thing, is when you sort of, you, you hear one thing, but you see another thing because of, like, the other areas of life that are, that are taking over.

Joe Rogan 1:27:00 So what do you do if you have an athlete, like, say, an NBA athlete, and you see all this talent, all this potential, but then you notice that they're getting pulled in all these different directions? Maybe they're just, like, spending money all the time and partying and hanging out with girls, and how do you get them back on track?

Tommy Wood 1:27:19 So I, I don't do a ton of work in NBA. W- when, when I, um, intersect with that, I'm generally advising on, like, the data portion rather than, like, the interacting with the, with the human. So I don't have good tips, but luckily, because I've, I've never had to, to deal with that, 'cause I imagine it's quite frustrating.

Joe Rogan 1:27:37 So what athletes do you deal with? Like, what sports?

Tommy Wood 1:27:39 So Formula 1 is the, is the one where I primarily am, like, face-to-face with athletes. In, in other professional sports, I'm like an advisor to the team that works with them on, like, a data, health, nutrition kind of-

Joe Rogan 1:27:49 Okay

Tommy Wood 1:27:50 ... project, kinda stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:27:50 Got it. Got it, got it. And when you compare notes, what are the differences between, like, dealing with Formula 1 athletes versus dealing with, like, NFL or NBA or baseball?

Tommy Wood 1:28:01 Well, all the stuff comes down to, uh, differences in travel schedule and training and the ability to, to capture data, for instance. So data capture in Formula 1 is, is really hard 'cause of the, the types of travel and, right, you don't get to aggregate across a team. Whereas when you're, you're part of a big team, there's several people you can kind of work, but, uh, you, you work with and aggregate, uh, data across to kind of understand what, what's happening with, with, with individuals as, as well as, like, overall. But, um, I, I think that it, it-- Formula 1 is unique because it's so, it's so individual, um, in terms of each driver has their one specific team, and it's often very difficult to, to capture some of the data that we might want to capture, like getting blood tests on guys who are in a plane every other day, right?

Joe Rogan 1:28:55 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:28:55 Really difficult. Um, whereas other places where they have a home base and this kind of stuff, as usual, you, you might be, be able to get at that better. Um, so I think that's maybe one of the biggest differences, is the travels, travel schedule and how easy or not it is to, like, capture and aggregate data.

Joe Rogan 1:29:12 When, when you're working with these Formula 1 athletes, like, how much are you changing the methods that you use, like, year to year?

Tommy Wood 1:29:21 Um, it will depend on whether... So, I mean, my job is to stay on top of the latest research, right?

Joe Rogan 1:29:30 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:29:30 So, so what, what's come out recently that we think will meaningfully move, move the needle? In reality, um, and I think this is the case in, in the majority of professional sports that I've in-- I've inter- interacted with, the, the main thing is getting the boring basics done consistently and, like, again and again and again. Like, we know that's, uh, foundational to sustained performance. And yeah, like the, the, some of the, the tools and technology for recovery and some of the supplements, um, especially if you're trying to address, um, nutrient insufficiencies based on, you know, an adeq- inadequate diet, which is also very common, right, those things do make a bit-- do make a difference. Um, but the, the main struggle, at least from the, the guys that, that I, you know, regularly see, is having an environment and framework that allows them to keep doing that stuff. Like, stay on top of a specific training program or stay consistent with a, you know, a certain sleep routine that allows them to, to sleep well. Those are the things that make the biggest difference, and so it's, like, that's where we tend to focus. And then, you know, may- maybe every year or so, we, well, like, we're constantly improving our, our data capture and our data analysis. We're constantly, um, you know, trying to improve sort of, like, the support processes because we know that with the better, better support, we can make sure they're more likely to do the stuff that's gonna make a big difference. And then maybe every sort of, like, year or two, there's a, uh, a new thing that comes in, and we're like, "Oh yeah, we're, we're fairly confident this is low risk, high potential benefit." Um, it's not gonna take a ton of their time, right? That's, that's another thing, is when I first, uh, when I first walked into the paddock in, in... It was here in Austin. It was the first time I went to Formula 1 to, like, start working with these guys. I, like, I showed up, and I'm like, "I've got like a, I've got, like, a hundred things that these guys are gonna love. It's gonna be really important. It's gonna revolutionize everything." And then you speak to, like, a coach for the first time, they're like-... We've got time for maybe one thing, and you better be really confident- [chuckles] -that this thing is gonna make a difference, right? Or else you've wasted our time.

Joe Rogan 1:31:45 So how do you decide?

Tommy Wood 1:31:47 [laughing] So, um, a little bit of it is, of course, there's gonna be some trial and error, and it does depend on-

Joe Rogan 1:31:56 But the error is, like, consequences are huge.

Tommy Wood 1:31:58 Yeah. Like, and, and you just, you just have to acknowledge that upfront. And the, the, the error is biggest when you're telling some guy to do something before he gets in the car, right?

Joe Rogan 1:32:06 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:32:06 Because that's, that's, that's gonna immediately have an effect. So there are ways to offset some of that, right? They have, uh, practice periods. Um, and so it's like right now, there's a new generation of cars for this season. Um, nobody's driven them before. They're getting more extended, uh, track time to practice, uh, practice with them. So like, that might be a time when, when you could try a new supplement or something, uh, before you get in the car because it's a, it's a low-- it's a lo- much lower risk setting. Uh, you're not racing, there's not nineteen other guys, or now twenty-one other guys, trying to, trying to get past you. Um, and then... Right, so that, so some of it is that, right? Trial and error. You, you acknowledge that you, you, you just have to be really confident that you know what problem you're trying to solve, and that it's an important problem, right? So I've da- I've worked with coaches and their driver, where, like, reaction time was a very specific thing. Like, off the line, we ne- we think we need X amount improvement. So then it's a combination of practice, maybe tinkering with some supplements, maybe tinkering with some of that arousal stuff that we talked about earlier. Um, so you, you need to make sure it's an important problem. Then you need to think about, like, what's the hierarchy of things that have the highest likelihood of benefit and the lowest risk, and then sort of work your way through it. Um, and I realize that this is all kind of in the abstract because it just, like, really depends on the problem that's in-

Joe Rogan 1:33:26 Right

Tommy Wood 1:33:26 ... that's, that's in front of you.

Joe Rogan 1:33:28 What about the psychology aspect of it? I mean, this is a very controversial aspect of, uh, mixed martial arts in particular, because, um, there's, there's kind of two schools of thought. There's, there's, uh... Like, I have a good friend who's a coach, that recently told me he's not working with any fighters anymore that need a mental coach.

Tommy Wood 1:33:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:33:49 And I said: "Why?" And he's like: "You just can't count on them." He goes: "They're just too fragile. They need a mental coach." He goes: "I want a motherfucker who just knows that this is what he's supposed to be doing and just go out and do it."

Tommy Wood 1:33:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:59 I'm like, "Boy, but that kind of limits your athletes, right?"

Tommy Wood 1:34:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:03 Like, uh, do you, do you think that there's benefit in mental coaching, or do you think, like, to reach a championship level, there's an inherent mindset that you must have going into that, and you can improve upon that, but if you do not have that mindset, you're not gonna be successful? This is my friend's idea. I don't want to call him out-

Tommy Wood 1:34:25 Yeah. Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:34:26 ... 'cause I know the athletes he worked with.

Tommy Wood 1:34:27 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:28 But, you know, he recently had a, a bad result with one of his athletes. He's like: "I'm done. No m- no more guys who need mental coaches. I want killers."

Tommy Wood 1:34:36 [chuckles] So I think that you're gonna need some element of a mindset to get to that level to begin with, right? Um, but we have psychologists on our team who work, work with the drivers regularly. Other drivers who aren't, you know, uh, working with us, bring in sports psychologists very regularly.

Joe Rogan 1:34:59 Do, do you collaborate with these psychologists? Do you talk to them and-

Tommy Wood 1:35:01 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:35:01 ... get their notes?

Tommy Wood 1:35:02 Yeah, yeah. So we have-

Joe Rogan 1:35:03 What are common issues?

Tommy Wood 1:35:06 [lip smack] The... I mean, again, it's just, it- it's so, uh, dependent on the ind- on the individual. Um, but it-

Joe Rogan 1:35:16 But like, what is-

Tommy Wood 1:35:16 But it's also, but it's also very common across all athletes, right?

Joe Rogan 1:35:18 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:35:19 So it's like overcoming failure or fear of failure, or, um, you'd- you maybe it's dealing with difficult relationships which, which, you know, for various reasons that they can experience. Um, and then it's how, you know, their inherent thought process is when that happens. So, so we know that the most resilient athletes are those that tend to be self-compassionate, right? So, like-

Joe Rogan 1:35:47 Interesting.

Tommy Wood 1:35:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:35:48 That is interesting. I would have thought the opposite.

Tommy Wood 1:35:50 Yeah. And so there's this idea, right, that, right, you want killers, you want, um-

Joe Rogan 1:35:55 People hard on themselves

Tommy Wood 1:35:56 ... the guys who are hard on themselves.

Joe Rogan 1:35:58 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:35:58 But for sustained-- and, and so this is looking across, like, as broad as possible across sport. Those who are most, um, most successful, most often-- of course, there's gonna be, there's gonna be the, the killer who's just, like, hard on themself and gets the job done, of course, right? But, um, these elements of self-compassion that include, um, things like mindfulness, like thinking about the world and understanding it, and about their place in it, and, um, common humanity, which is like treating themselves as they would treat other people. And acknowledging that, right, we all make mistakes, and stuff always happens, but I can overcome this. I, you know what? This has happened to me before. Like, I've sucked, I've crashed, I've done something wrong, and hey, I, I o- overcame it, and, you know, n- now I'm succeeding again. Those, um, mental skills are most common amongst the, the high-level, high-level athletes. So I, so I, I'll give an example. This is not... So I don't know him, but, like, um, Roger Federer has a very famous quote, right? He gave at some, um, like, graduation address or something, where he says that across his career, he only won fifty-four percent of his points on court, right?

Joe Rogan 1:37:12 Mm.

Tommy Wood 1:37:12 So that means that forty-six of-- forty-six percent of points, he lost, right? So that means that every time he makes a mistake, every unforced error, he has to come back and be like: "Hey, dude, like, you've got this. I, I know I can do this." And like, and that's the point that he's making in, in this address. And it's those kinds of mental skills that seem to be most important. So when you've had a history of beating yourself up and h- being hard on yourself, and that's kind of gotten you to that point-... there will often be a stage where there's so much accumulated, uh, pressure, or stress, or failure, that just working harder and being harder on yourself isn't gonna get you past it. But athletes who are successful for a long period of time tend to have those other abilities, to, like, think about the bigger picture, understand what they've overcome previously, um, treat themselves, you know, more like they would treat others. And they seem to be the ones who overcome failure and then continue to suc- succeed.

Joe Rogan 1:38:09 Um, I'm really into professional pool. I play pool, and I follow a lot of professional pool players.

Tommy Wood 1:38:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:38:15 And there's a trait amongst the elite pool players that's pretty consistent, uh, for the ones that are successful and win tournaments, is the ability to let a bad shot go.

Tommy Wood 1:38:25 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:38:26 Because the guys who beat themselves up over bad shots, you see it, they slump in their chair, they start running their fingers through their hair, they fucking-- they throw their head back-

Tommy Wood 1:38:36 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:38:36 -they take a big, deep breath, and then they're carrying that with them-

Tommy Wood 1:38:39 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:38:39 -when they go out to make a shot again.

Tommy Wood 1:38:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:38:42 And for a high-level pool player-- So, um, there's, uh, s- performance scores, and a, a really high TPA performance score is like... I think the best in the world right now is Joshua Filler, who's this guy from Germany, and he's w- arguably, if not the best, one of the top two or three guys in the world.

Tommy Wood 1:39:02 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:39:02 His performance score is about, uh, I think it's, like, eight hundred and fifty out of a thousand. So that means if he makes a thousand shots, he's gonna make eight hundred and fifty of those shots-

Tommy Wood 1:39:16 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:39:16 -which is very elite.

Tommy Wood 1:39:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:39:18 So you gotta think, like, even the best, 'cause they're playing on four-inch pockets, but this guy never gets upset.

Tommy Wood 1:39:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:39:23 When he misses, he just sits down, and he's got a dead look on his face. The Chinese Taipei players are the best at it. I don't know how they coach them over there, so they're some of the best in the world, the Chinese Taipei, Taipei players. So these guys from Taiwan, they have no expression.

Tommy Wood 1:39:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:39:37 When they miss a shot, they just go and sit down.

Tommy Wood 1:39:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:39:39 And maybe they'll smile, but they never get upset.

Tommy Wood 1:39:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:39:41 Whereas a lot of the American players, they get fucking pissed off and like, "Ugh! Argh!" You see it, some of the European players do the same thing, and those guys, they fall off a cliff.

Tommy Wood 1:39:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:39:52 Their performance is elite, they'll make a couple of bad shots, and then the match goes downhill, and they wind up getting steamrolled.

Tommy Wood 1:39:58 Yeah. And, and I think you can-- though there's other stuff going on, you can think about it in terms of that, like, arousal curve we talked about earlier, right? As you get stressed and, like, worked up about a missed shot, you're pushing yourself further and further away from the level of arousal-

Joe Rogan 1:40:13 Yeah

Tommy Wood 1:40:13 ... that's required for performance.

Joe Rogan 1:40:14 Yes.

Tommy Wood 1:40:15 Right? And-

Joe Rogan 1:40:16 And dwelling on-

Tommy Wood 1:40:17 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:40:17 -failure.

Tommy Wood 1:40:18 Right, and then you're thinking about what happened previously-

Joe Rogan 1:40:20 Yes

Tommy Wood 1:40:20 ... rather than the shot that-

Joe Rogan 1:40:21 Yes

Tommy Wood 1:40:21 ... that, that comes next.

Joe Rogan 1:40:23 Well, that's one of the most important things about a shot. 'Cause even if your mechanics are good, if you think you're gonna miss, you're gonna miss.

Tommy Wood 1:40:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40:28 It's weird.

Tommy Wood 1:40:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40:29 It's a weird thing, because you know what to do, you know how to do it, but if you think, "Fucker, I can't, I can't miss this shot," you're gonna miss.

Tommy Wood 1:40:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40:36 Like, nine times out of ten. It's very weird. So it's a very mentally, uh, the, the, the game, a giant percentage of it, once the skills are acquired, 'cause most of them, when they get to an elite level, have all the skills.

Tommy Wood 1:40:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40:50 It's a mental thing.

Tommy Wood 1:40:51 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:40:51 It's ability to perform under pressure.

Tommy Wood 1:40:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40:54 'Cause it's fine motor skills, and it's, you know-

Tommy Wood 1:40:58 There's-- I mean, across every different aspect of cognitive performance, well-being, there's... You know, again and again, you see that psychology drives physiology with-- and drives performance. Like, you can, you can measure these things as you think them, as they, they then change physiology, which then alters how you perform. So, so, I mean, that, this is a very, very long answer to your, to your question of, like, is imp-- is, like, psychology and mental skills important? Absolutely. Because I think that's gonna be foundational to whether you can even achieve those high levels of performance. Um, and everybody needs help occasionally, and right, that's, that's perfectly, that's perfectly normal. And they m-- right, different people are gonna need different tools and different skill sets. So, like, different psychologists are gonna provide, you know, different things for them to do. So, like, yes, that's always something that we have on hand as needed as part of the team, because that's gonna be really important.

Joe Rogan 1:41:57 Yeah, the mind controls so much of what you do in life, even if you have skills.

Tommy Wood 1:42:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:42:04 And that's something that, uh, elite performers either figure out or don't, right? They either never achieve their true potential because they keep tripping over themselves-

Tommy Wood 1:42:13 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:42:14 ... or they go, "Okay, this is not helping me, it's only hurting me. I keep allowing myself to spiral into this same sort of mental state, and I have to find a method." And so, like, when you talk with psychologists, w- what do they, what tools and what, what, what sort of strategies do they give these athletes to abandon negative thinking?

Tommy Wood 1:42:42 There are a few different ways to, approach it, and again, like, uh, don't wanna pretend I'm a psychologist, right? These are, these are the-- we have other people with these skills for a reason. Um, but I think a lot of what, um, becomes important, again, is thinking about the causes of, um, maybe, maybe initially the causes of mistakes, and then, um, the, and the causes of stress, and why that may or may not be beneficial, and the way that you can, you can leverage it. So there's a lot of, um, research on understanding that stress responses are there to divert resources to something that matters and something that either requires your attention or adaptation to it, right? So understanding that actually stress, in the moment, in that kind of moment, is a good thing, and you want to, you want to leverage it rather than be scared of it. So, and we know that people who are trained in this mindset, so this is work, uh, by, um, Alia Crum at Stanford. Stress-- the stress is enhancing mindset-... um, also like predicts how well, um, Navy SEALs do during training, like how much they sort of like appreciate the stress response is important. This is me, you know, rising to the occasion. Um, not only-- the, like, you still get stressed, where you still me- can measure stress hormones. That's, that still happens, but you release other things that help to, um, also, like, counteract that and drive adaptation, and it results in better decision-making wh- when stressed. So, like, reframing some of these responses can, can be important, as well as then thinking about, like, after a, a mistake happened, you know, thinking about other examples of times when you did that and you overcame it or, you know, having, having, like, these different parts of understanding what it is to be a human, even when you are performing at an e- elite level. Maybe some of it is building in routines so that you feel confident in a given situation, right? Like, these are the things that I do, and when I do these things, I know I'm gonna perform well. That can be a double-edged sword for some people because... And I think this, we see this, a lot of this in the, um, in the world of sort of like health optimization. We assume that we need to do all these things in order to perform well, and so then if those things don't happen, we think we won't perform well, right?

Joe Rogan 1:45:10 Mm.

Tommy Wood 1:45:10 So that's another way for us to get, get in our way, our, our own way. So, so you kind of have to balance that depending on, on the individual. And then some of it can be, um, right, in, in the moment, right? So you, you're one of those pool players, and you're getting increasingly frustrated because you're not making your shots. It's almost impossible to think your way out of that, right? Your brain is too busy being dunked in adrenaline to, like, make good decisions. So that, that's where you might have tools like, um, leveraging your physiology, breathwork, um, closing your eyes, uh, visualization. Those things sort of work from the bottom up. They kind of help your mind get a grip and, like, get back in the game. So it's a whole bunch of different things depending on, um, what you might need. I- is it, I need to regulate myself in the moment? Is it, how do I set myself up for success through a, a series of, um-- And, and it, it could be like, what's my warm-up? What's my... What am I thinking through? What am I visualizing before I perform? Or is it, um, tools to kind of deal with the processes of, of failure afterwards?

Joe Rogan 1:46:17 And I would also think that even just the knowledge that these high-stress situations where you do encounter failure can produce a result-

Tommy Wood 1:46:28 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:46:28 ... inside the mind-

Tommy Wood 1:46:29 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:46:29 ... that can be beneficial if harnessed.

Tommy Wood 1:46:31 Yes. Yeah, exactly. And so one, one of the ways that this is tr-- this is taught to other people, right, not just athletes, is like, think about all the people who've performed under significant stress, right? This is what the human mind and human body is capable of, if only we allow it to, to do, to do that.

Joe Rogan 1:46:50 Right. Right, that's what's important, right? It's like, I, I, I think inspiration is one of the most powerful fuels that we can use, and inspiration from other people's examples is one of the best versions-

Tommy Wood 1:47:02 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:47:02 ... of that.

Tommy Wood 1:47:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:47:03 'Cause I think, um, there was a young kid who recently b- broke the world record of the mile. Did you see that, Jamie?

Tommy Wood 1:47:11 Oh yeah, yeah, I watched that.

Joe Rogan 1:47:12 I think is he sixteen?

Tommy Wood 1:47:13 Sixteen, and it was three forty something, three forty-eight, maybe.

Joe Rogan 1:47:15 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:47:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:47:16 I think three forty-eight-

Tommy Wood 1:47:17 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:47:17 ... which is nuts. Which is nuts. We didn't think that people can get below four minutes before.

Tommy Wood 1:47:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:47:22 This sixteen-year-old kid-

Tommy Wood 1:47:24 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:47:24 ... hits three forty-eight, and I immediately thought, "Wow, through the inspiration of this kid being able to do this, who's gonna break three forty now?"

Tommy Wood 1:47:34 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:47:35 You know?

Tommy Wood 1:47:35 That, that-- I was, I heard from somebody that in the run-up to the race, he was like he hadn't raced a bunch. Recently, he, um, [chuckles] this was just-

Joe Rogan 1:47:43 [chuckles] Fucking stud!

Tommy Wood 1:47:44 ... this, this was just gonna be like a, just, like, gonna be a run-out. He was just, like, gonna, you know, loosen his legs up, get back in the, in the, in, into, into the race. And so, like, in that situation, he's put no pressure on himself, right? All the, all the brakes are off. Like, whatever, he's got nothing to lose, and so, like, in that situation, like, you could-- like, incredible performance is possible.

Joe Rogan 1:48:03 And it's crazy because that's only the eleventh fastest indoor mile.

Tommy Wood 1:48:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:48:07 That's what it says here. I thought it was the fastest ever, but it's the fastest ever-

Tommy Wood 1:48:09 No, it's the-

Joe Rogan 1:48:09 ... for under eighteen

Tommy Wood 1:48:11 ... yeah, under eighteen record, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:48:12 It's so crazy. That's so fast to run a mile. Whoo!

Tommy Wood 1:48:17 I mean, I'm not sure I could go that fast, full stop, ever, like, for any period of time. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:48:22 No. Yeah, for like twenty feet.

Tommy Wood 1:48:24 Yeah, exactly. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:48:24 I can't run that fast. It's kind of amazing, but, um, I mean, this is one of the things we talk about all the time with mixed martial arts athletes in particular, is that today is such an amazing time for them because there's so much access to video.

Tommy Wood 1:48:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:48:39 So you can watch all these performances by all these elite athletes, and then it raises the, your personal standards because you're mirroring what these people are capable of doing. And in your head, you have a very high standard because you've seen it, and that, that inspires people to become better. And so the athletes that we're seeing today, I, I say all the time that martial arts has evolved more in the last thirty years than it has in the last thirty thousand years.

Tommy Wood 1:49:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:49:06 And it's, it's true. And it's, it's true just based on my own personal experience of seeing athletes from 1997, when I first started working with the UFC, to 2026. It's a completely different standard.

Tommy Wood 1:49:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:49:18 They're so much better. They're so much more elite. They have so much more balance. They have so much more balance in terms of their game is balanced, striking, grappling, wrestling, all of it together. It's, it, it, it's amazing because they've... they're walking on the foundation that was set by the athletes before them. So it's the mind-

Tommy Wood 1:49:40 Yeah. Oh-

Joe Rogan 1:49:40 ... recognizing what's possible.

Tommy Wood 1:49:42 Abs- absolutely, or not thinking that something is impossible, right? My, my-

Joe Rogan 1:49:47 Right

Tommy Wood 1:49:47 ... it's the, it's the opposite, too, and maybe that's more of it, right? It's the same with Roger Bannister and the four-minute mile, right? As soon as he did it, everybody-... not everybody, but lots of people started to do it.

Joe Rogan 1:49:55 Well, and also the ignorance of youth, which is why young athletes are so damn good sometimes.

Tommy Wood 1:49:59 Yeah, 'cause they don't, they don't worry about their own limitations. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:50:01 And they also don't have mortgages.

Tommy Wood 1:50:02 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:50:02 They don't have wives, they don't have kids, they don't have bills. So-

Tommy Wood 1:50:06 But the, but this is, this is also the thing is, right, if we think about, um, these traits that we'd, we'd maybe like to carry over that, that help us perform or ma- you know, maintain performance for long periods of time later in life, like, some of that, um, curiosity, not worrying about, like, these burdens, continuously continuing to engage in these things that challenge ourselves, that kids just, like, readily do, right? The, the brain is exploring and trying to learn. I think we need more of that, um, as adults. Um, but when you think about the, the standard being set or thinking that things aren't im-im-impossible, there's, there's two parts to that: one, y- yes, that, that, that, that's a huge aspect of achieving higher and higher levels of athletic performance. But for, for many of us, like us regular people, um, when you spend a lot of time seeing other people performing so much better than you, it has the- it can have the opposite effect, right? I think this is something that we see on, on social media. There's some really interesting-

Joe Rogan 1:51:02 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:51:03 Um, there's some really is- interesting studies on social rank, right? So we are always trying to see where we rank in the world compared to others, right? That's the part of us like being social beings. And so if you spend all day looking at people who are richer, more beautiful, more jacked than you are, y- internally, you demote yourself, right? You, you, you, you give yourself a, a lower social rank, and that creates a social stress that triggers genuine stress responses, right? Increased sympathetic activation, activation of some, like, inflammatory processes in the body, very similar to if you are socially, socially isolated. So for some people who have the, you know, are on a trajectory to improve their performance, you know, 'cause they're really athletes, and they're seeing these other guys do it, and they're like: "Oh, yeah, I can do that," right? That's really beneficial. But in, like, the general world, the rest of us, when we spend so much time seeing other people do other things better than us, it can almost have the opposite effect.

Joe Rogan 1:52:01 Mm. But not with everybody.

Tommy Wood 1:52:04 No. No, no, it's, it's-

Joe Rogan 1:52:05 That's the thing-

Tommy Wood 1:52:05 It's very... Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:52:06 ... we're talking- that's the thing between an, the difference between an athlete and someone who is intimidated by other people's performances-

Tommy Wood 1:52:14 Well, it's-

Joe Rogan 1:52:14 ... instead of being inspired.

Tommy Wood 1:52:15 Yeah, so but, but that's, that's what I mean, is that when, when you're one type of-- when you're an athlete, and you're seeing other guys like you do this thing, right, that's like, oh yeah, that creates a bar-

Joe Rogan 1:52:26 Right

Tommy Wood 1:52:26 ... you wanna try and hit. But that same thing is very different out for the, out for the rest of us, based on, like, seeing how we compare to others.

Joe Rogan 1:52:37 Well, particularly in things you can't control-

Tommy Wood 1:52:38 Exactly. Exactly

Joe Rogan 1:52:39 ... like your looks-

Tommy Wood 1:52:40 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:52:40 ... or your wealth.

Tommy Wood 1:52:41 Yeah, but, but like-

Joe Rogan 1:52:41 Wealth in some ways-

Tommy Wood 1:52:43 Your-

Joe Rogan 1:52:43 ... can be achieved, but-

Tommy Wood 1:52:44 Your mind doesn't-

Joe Rogan 1:52:44 Yeah

Tommy Wood 1:52:45 ... interpret it that way, way.

Joe Rogan 1:52:46 Right.

Tommy Wood 1:52:46 You, you don't, you don't immediately rationally think: "Well, I can never be that," right? "I'm never gonna look like Brad Pitt," right?

Joe Rogan 1:52:52 Right. Right.

Tommy Wood 1:52:53 I- you, uh, you can't, you can't apply that sort of, like, rational thinking to it.

Joe Rogan 1:52:57 Well, then even worse for young girls, because a lot of them are getting surgery because they know that some girls have radically improved-

Tommy Wood 1:53:02 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:53:02 ... their looks through surgery, and so they think, like, "This is the solution to everything-"

Tommy Wood 1:53:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:53:06 "... and I just need to get a nose job, and a chin job, and a this, and a that," and-

Tommy Wood 1:53:09 Which of course never-

Joe Rogan 1:53:11 No

Tommy Wood 1:53:11 ... results in a-

Joe Rogan 1:53:11 And also, it's like the psychological aspect of being controlled by paying attention to other people's lives is very weird, and it's... You know, Jonathan Haidt wrote a great book about it called The Coddling of the American Mind.

Tommy Wood 1:53:23 Mm. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:53:23 About the impact of social media, p- and particularly on young girls. It's really bad.

Tommy Wood 1:53:28 Uh, Coddling of the... So he, he did write Coddling of the American Mind. That was more about changes in, like, academia, academia, and helicopter parenting, and safetyism. The Anxious Generation was the one about-

Joe Rogan 1:53:39 Oh, that's right

Tommy Wood 1:53:39 ... social media.

Joe Rogan 1:53:39 That's right.

Tommy Wood 1:53:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:53:40 And that aspect of it, of comparing yourself to other girls, is particularly devastating. It's like there's-- you see when the impact of social media, when social media gets introduced into the world, immediately you see more self-harm, suicidal ideation, all these different things increase. Whereas, like, so those same stressors, if you were in a position like an athlete, and you're a competitive athlete, and you see someone who's elite, you would be inspired.

Tommy Wood 1:54:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:54:10 But you feel helpless to achieve these goals that, you know, you, you, like, you can't get any taller.

Tommy Wood 1:54:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:54:19 You can't get any better looking.

Tommy Wood 1:54:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:54:20 You can't... Like, it's just this is what you got.

Tommy Wood 1:54:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:54:23 And then you see these per- what-- and then you see people that are using filters, so it's not even what they really look like.

Tommy Wood 1:54:28 Mm-hmm. Yeah, so that, I, I think that's why there's this... It's interesting that very similar exposures, depending on who you are, and what you're trying to achieve, and what you have the ability to achieve, can have dramatically different effects on mental and, and other wellbeing.

Joe Rogan 1:54:47 Right, and but you would imagine that for competitive athletes, you're- you've already developed a certain amount of resilience already. You already have a competitive spirit, and you are working towards a thing that's a high level of achievement in something you're already doing. So seeing a Michael Jordan, seeing a LeBron James-

Tommy Wood 1:55:07 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:55:07 ... seeing, like, if you're a basketball player, you would be inspired. And instead of being like: "I'll never be as good as that guy," you'd be like: "Fuck, I wanna be as good as that guy-"

Tommy Wood 1:55:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:55:16 "... what do I have to do? Well, Kobe Bryant worked out every day, and he did this, and he did that, so I'm going to do that."

Tommy Wood 1:55:20 So but that's the key difference, right? Is that, um, something else, w- we didn't talk about this in terms of, like, the, the approaches of, of the most successful athletes, is that they don't just say: "I want to be like LeBron or Kobe." They say, "What did he do?

Joe Rogan 1:55:41 Yes.

Tommy Wood 1:55:41 What can I do?" So they focus on the process, right?

Joe Rogan 1:55:44 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:55:44 You have to love and focus on the process because you, you can't guarantee a certain outcome, right? So, like, i- in... And, and I talk about this, I talk about this in the book, and I give the example of the 2012 Olympics, right? The, the guys who came second, third, and fourth ran personal best times.... like several other national records were set during the, during, like, the whole hundred meter sprint competition, all the different rounds. But like, Usain Bolt ran, right? And so, like- [laughing] you could, like, no, you, you can be the best you've ever been and be amazing. Like, you can run fast enough to have won a gold medal any other year, but, like, sometimes you're out of luck 'cause Usain Bolt shows up.

Joe Rogan 1:56:26 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:56:26 So, like, you've got to focus on the process because you can't guarantee the outcome. But by focusing on the process, right, you're gonna get- you're gonna get much closer.

Joe Rogan 1:56:34 Yeah, that's interesting, because if you are a person trying to be the best in the world, and you happen to be in the same weight class as Mike Tyson- [laughing]

Tommy Wood 1:56:42 It's gonna be tough. What are you gonna do? [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:56:44 Yeah, but I mean, th- that's always been the case. That's the thing in championship-level fighting, you find that once someone is a, a real outlier, that what happens is all the other people in that weight class tend to achieve a very high level-

Tommy Wood 1:56:59 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:56:59 ... even if they never wind up being as good as Anderson Silva or whoever it is.

Tommy Wood 1:57:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:57:04 They, they wi- it wind up, winds up being a very competitive contender class-

Tommy Wood 1:57:10 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:57:10 ... underneath it, and much more competitive than divisions that are not being dominated by elite fighters.

Tommy Wood 1:57:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:57:16 Yeah. Your- this is a very large book, right? [laughing] So I know it can't just be the stuff that we've already covered. What other things do you think, uh, are in here that are important when you're talking about future-proofing your mind?

Tommy Wood 1:57:29 Um, I will say you're looking at a dummy copy, so all the pages are blank.

Joe Rogan 1:57:32 Yeah, you just tricked me.

Tommy Wood 1:57:33 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:57:33 Look at this, folks. I was saying this is a really large book. It's a fucking empty book.

Tommy Wood 1:57:38 So the-

Joe Rogan 1:57:39 That's crazy.

Tommy Wood 1:57:40 The differ-- uh-

Joe Rogan 1:57:40 I read this, I'm like, "Maybe it's a trick."

Tommy Wood 1:57:42 [chuckles] The, uh, yeah, you're just not paying t- attention enough.

Joe Rogan 1:57:45 [laughing]

Tommy Wood 1:57:45 The, um, the book is as thick as the real one will be.

Joe Rogan 1:57:48 I believe you.

Tommy Wood 1:57:48 So, um, and that, that's on purpose.

Joe Rogan 1:57:51 I've never been given a dummy copy of a book before. [laughing] So does it even have writing? No writing. Good, I'm gonna use this as my new joke book.

Tommy Wood 1:57:57 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:57:59 New notes. It's all blank.

Tommy Wood 1:58:00 Well, um, once, once the, uh, once the full thing is printed, we'll send you a real one.

Joe Rogan 1:58:04 Okay.

Tommy Wood 1:58:04 Um-

Joe Rogan 1:58:05 You did trick me, though. Thank God I didn't try to read from it.

Tommy Wood 1:58:08 So the, like, the first, the first part of the book is about, um, some of the history of, of neuroscience and why we think about the brain the way we do and some of the limitations that's created. Like, why we think about, um, Alzheimer's disease as just being like the accumulation of amyloid and tau proteins in the brain, which people might have heard of, right?

Joe Rogan 1:58:28 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 1:58:28 That's what it's been boiled down to, when there's actually a much bigger picture and many other things that, that are important. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:58:34 Wasn't the... Was it, uh, Alzheimer's, where the amyloid plaque, where that idea was sort of proven to be a little bit bullshit?

Tommy Wood 1:58:43 So there have been a-- so, uh, not really, but kind of. So there were several seminal papers in-

Joe Rogan 1:58:52 That were hoaxed, right?

Tommy Wood 1:58:53 They, they, they were manipulated in some way, right, they-

Joe Rogan 1:58:55 Oh.

Tommy Wood 1:58:55 And this is v- this, unfortunately, is quite common, where you, you change the figures, you manipulate these blots to make them show different things, and you kind of move them around and copy and paste, and it kind of shows what you want to show. And so, like, for some of the, like, seminal papers in Alzheimer's, that, that turned out to be the case.

Joe Rogan 1:59:09 Oh!

Tommy Wood 1:59:10 But it, it, it doesn't, like, discount the fact that it's still a, still a part of it. Um, but people have increasingly looked away from just the accumulation of certain proteins in the brain for, for two reasons. One is that we had, as, as a field, they had to create, um, new ideas like resilience. And there's this thing called cognitive resilience, which is how much, uh, cognitive function do you maintain in the face of these proteins building up in the brain? And that's because the n- the amount of amyloid you have in your brain doesn't really predict cognitive function and co- and cognitive decline that well. So some of that is related to other things. So we know that, like, exercise is a, is, is an important part of that. Um, and then we know that there are these other things that, that are important, um, as well. So inflammation, um, other cells in the brain that become critical. So, like, the white matter is a really critical structure in the brain. It's what allows us to have really fast, uh, processing speed, um, uh, decision-making, executive function, the function of the prefrontal cortex, all of that is kind of, um, dependent on white matter structure. Um, and that seems to be really related to, like, uh, vascular function, vascular health. Um, resistance training is really important to support that.

Joe Rogan 2:00:25 Mm.

Tommy Wood 2:00:25 So, like, all these other things become important as well. So, like, that's kind of the... It's just showing, like the first part of the book is saying, "Hey, we kind of focused a lot here, but actually, that's not-- it's not that that's not important, but, like, there's a whole bunch of other stuff that's important, too." Um, and a lot of it is related to things that we have control over. So then, then, you know, I, uh, we talk, I talk about all the different types of exercise, how different types of exercise affects different parts of the brain in different ways. Um, nutrition, um, talk a lot about cognitive stimulus, soc- uh, social connection, um, sleep, um, like I said, stress management and stress mitigation, and how you can kind of manage your performance in the moment. Um, and then all of that comes together in terms of, into like a model, um, that I call the three S model of how these different, like, things kind of interact, um, and, and affect you on a day-to-day basis. So the, the first S being stimulus, right? We've talked about all, all the reasons why that's, that's important. Um, the second S being supply, which is if you stimulate a part of the brain or a network in the brain with a new skill, that area of the brain, uh, the neurons and the astrocytes there, they ask for more blood flow. So the blood vessels have to widen, they dilate, to bring in more oxygen, bring in more glucose or, or whatever metabolic substrate you're using, ketones, lactate, et cetera. Um, and so you need really good cardiovascular health. That's critical, so that's, that's a big part of what we talk about. Um, you also need good metabolic health. So, uh, high blood pressure and high blood sugar are two of the biggest risk factors for later dementia because they affect this supply component, either the blood flow getting there or being able to regulate-... you know, energy. Um, and then there's a bunch of nutrients that are important in, in that bucket as well. So omega-3s, vitamin D, iron, magnesium, um, because they have very-- uh, B vitamins, they have very specific functions in the brain that we know that if you're deficient, you have an increased risk of cognitive decline and dementia. And then you've stimulated a part of the brain, you've kind of given it all the substrate it needs to do its job. Like we've talked about, adaptation occurs, and function en- it gets enhanced when we sleep or when we recover. So, like, that's support is the third bucket. So sleep is a part of that. Um, other support you might get, like hormonal status is, is important. Uh, trophic factors, right? Hormones that get released or proteins that get released that support, uh, neuroplasticity in the brain, things like brain-derived neurotrophic factor. And then you want to avoid things that kind of inhibit that process. Um, so as chronic stress can do that, it creates like an overtraining kind of picture in the brain. Um, uh, smoking, uh, excessive alcohol, um, air pollution, those kinds of things, um, can, can have a negative effect. So, like, that's how they, that's how they all interact. And the fact that they interact means that depending on what feels most impactful to you-- like, what's the thing that you think you can move the needle on? By focusing on one area, the whole network starts to shift, and we see that in, in multiple different studies. So if you focus on sleep and you sleep a bit better, then the next-- then we see that, like, inflammation decreases, and blood pressure improves, and blood sugar improves, and the next day you feel more sociable. So you're more likely to interact with other people in a friendly way, and you're more likely to engage in cognitively stimulating tasks because, um, when we're tired, w- we kind of shy away from those things. And it's the same if you-- so there are studies in older adults where you give them a brain training program, and they sleep better because when you stimulate, um, a tissue, you then drive greater need for recovery after. It's the same if you exercise more, you sleep better. So the f-- it's not like this long list of things that everybody has to do and-- 'cause when you give somebody a list of thirty-seven things, they'll do zero things, right? We know that.

Joe Rogan 2:04:10 Yeah.

Tommy Wood 2:04:10 Um, so if you, if you just know that they all kind of communicate and interact, any way you come in, you can start to kind of shift things in your favor.

Joe Rogan 2:04:19 Now, when you're compiling a book like this, I would imagine there's a lot of editing.

Tommy Wood 2:04:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:04:23 And so how do you decide, like, what to leave in? I mean, this looks like it's-- I mean, obviously, these are all blank pages, so they're not numbered-

Tommy Wood 2:04:29 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 2:04:29 ... but it looks like this is at least a three-hundred-page book.

Tommy Wood 2:04:31 Uh, yeah, the fi- the final book is about four hundred and fifty pages.

Joe Rogan 2:04:34 Oh!

Tommy Wood 2:04:35 Hundred and sixty-five thousand words.

Joe Rogan 2:04:36 Whoa!

Tommy Wood 2:04:37 Um, and the, the reference list, like... So, um, unlike most health books, every time I make, like, a, a statement or I mention a study, there's a little number, and that, that gives you the paper or papers that I'm talking about that supports that, right? Um, it's two thousand papers long. Um, and so, like, that all has to go online because they couldn't-

Joe Rogan 2:04:59 Of course

Tommy Wood 2:04:59 ... they couldn't afford to print it in the book. Um-

Joe Rogan 2:05:02 But that's probably better anyway.

Tommy Wood 2:05:03 Yeah, yeah. Like, 'cause, like, there's like seven people who will, who will do that.

Joe Rogan 2:05:07 Right.

Tommy Wood 2:05:07 They'll read the book-

Joe Rogan 2:05:08 That's exactly what I was gonna say. [chuckles]

Tommy Wood 2:05:09 [chuckles] And then, and then they'll go and look.

Joe Rogan 2:05:10 Psychos.

Tommy Wood 2:05:11 Yeah, yeah. So, so it's important to me, like... Anyway-

Joe Rogan 2:05:14 As a scientist.

Tommy Wood 2:05:14 People who want it-- yeah, people who wanna do that can do that. Um, but in-- I, I'm not quite sure how it ended up being this way, but I, I actually had to cut very little. Like, there were things where I kind of went down a little bit of a rabbit hole about it, so it was like, "Meh, I'm not sure we really need this." Um, but I, I basically wrote until I got to the word limit, and then, and then I stopped. And I focused on the things that I knew that were important and were gonna stay important even in the age of AI and as technology improves and changes. Um, so there wasn't a ton that, that ended up getting cut out.

Joe Rogan 2:05:53 But when you're putting it together, like, how do you decide the, like, the-- what's prominent, what's the most important thing to focus on-

Tommy Wood 2:06:01 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:06:01 ... where to put things?

Tommy Wood 2:06:03 Um, so when, when I started, when I started writing, as you saw-- so I'm, I'm gonna disagree with my former self. Like, the fir-

Joe Rogan 2:06:16 [chuckles]

Tommy Wood 2:06:17 I, I, I wrote the f-- I wrote the first part of the book, like, three times. And, like, the first time I wrote it, it was like forty thousand words, all focused on psychology and, like, super, like, esoteric and academic, and I was like, "Nobody's gonna read this." So, like, it had to be scratched a couple of times. So then, um, the, the core middle part of the book is all those different areas that we know are important, like the big rocks, and practical frameworks for how to address those. And then, then there's just like a-- then there's an introduction to, like, like, why should you care about this? Like, um, fort-- like, oh, in individuals over forty, dementia is the, the most important health concern, right? Um, more than ten percent say they've experienced changes in cognitive function. Um, we know that the rates of dementia are gonna double or triple in the next two or three decades. Like, so why do people care about this? And, like, some, some history there. Um, and then the middle part is, which I always knew I was gonna write, these are the most important things, and they're always gonna remain the most important things. And then the last chapter is sort of like just kind of br- bringing it together. Um, does that answer your question?

Joe Rogan 2:07:30 It does.

Tommy Wood 2:07:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:31 It does. Well, I'm glad you wrote it because I think it's a very important thing, and I think there's a lot of people out there that don't understand the risks of being sedentary, and that these, these are things that you can change.

Tommy Wood 2:07:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:43 And that you can improve the quality of your life by making those changes. And it, it might make you uncomfortable to begin something like that, but there's some real value in that uncomfortable feeling of trying something new.

Tommy Wood 2:07:57 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 2:07:58 And then it really does change the way your brain functions-

Tommy Wood 2:08:00 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:08:01 ... and it'll improve the quality of your life and-... in this case, if, if possible, hold off dementia and, and just hold off cognitive decline-

Tommy Wood 2:08:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:08:10 -without calling it dementia.

Tommy Wood 2:08:11 Yeah. Yeah, indeed.

Joe Rogan 2:08:11 So many people-

Tommy Wood 2:08:12 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:08:12 -experience cognitive decline because of atrophy.

Tommy Wood 2:08:15 Yeah. Yeah, so it's, um, that's kind of like the, the, the worst possible end state we want to avoid.

Joe Rogan 2:08:22 Right.

Tommy Wood 2:08:23 But you want to maintain your current level of cognitive function-

Joe Rogan 2:08:26 Right

Tommy Wood 2:08:26 ... for, for as long as possible and-

Joe Rogan 2:08:29 Possibly improve it.

Tommy Wood 2:08:30 And possibly improve it. And there is evidence you can improve it even later in life. And so a, a big part of this is that when you-- uh, right at the... You know, earlier we talked about, you know, this graph of cognitive function, right? It increases till you're sort of 20 or 30, and then it declines. When we're doing studies that show that kind of thing, what we're doing is we're looking at a whole bunch of people, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of people, and we're saying, like, "You plot them all on a graph." And yeah, as, as you get- as you sort of increase in age, there are some people who are gonna lose function, and you kind of like draw the average down. But we've known essentially since, uh, for the last 50 years, that, um, when you look at the same person over several decades, it's actually very normal for us to maintain function. So like, um, the Seattle Longitudinal Study was run by a guy called Warner Shaie in Seattle, and it was one of the first studies where they measured cognitive function in the same people every seven years for several decades. And like every seven years, they measured the same people and brought in new people. And so they ended up with people who were, like, in their 20s, up to over 100 years old. And they found that the average effects, by that I mean that more than 50% of people maintained the same level of cognitive function into their 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Joe Rogan 2:09:45 Mm.

Tommy Wood 2:09:46 And those data were used to actually raise the retirement age in the US in, in the 1980s, because they showed that it actually wasn't normal for people to decline. But the problem is now we've embodied this idea that as you get older, you will decline, and as a result, you stop engaging in all the things that we've talked about. 'Cause you're like, "Oh, I'm too old to lift that. I'm too old to learn a new skill," you know, "I'm- I don't have time to do that." And as a result, right, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You stop engaging in those processes, and decline happens as a result. But if we know that it's possible to maintain function and we continue to engage in those processes, the norm should be that function is maintained.

Joe Rogan 2:10:28 Uh, last question.

Tommy Wood 2:10:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:10:29 Did you do an audio version of this?

Tommy Wood 2:10:31 Yeah, I'm recording it at the moment. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:10:32 All right. When will that be available?

Tommy Wood 2:10:34 Be out on the same day, uh, March 24th.

Joe Rogan 2:10:36 March 24th, The Stimulated Mind, Dr Tommy Wood. Go get it, folks. I promise it won't be like this. [laughing]

Tommy Wood 2:10:43 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 2:10:44 Thank you, Tommy. I, I really enjoyed this.

Tommy Wood 2:10:46 Thanks so much, Tommy.

Joe Rogan 2:10:46 Thank you very much.

Tommy Wood 2:10:47 Yeah, it was great.

Joe Rogan 2:10:47 I think it's really important information, too, and I, I think it's something that everyone should apply.

Tommy Wood 2:10:51 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 2:10:52 All right. Thank you. Bye, everybody. [upbeat music]