Joe Rogan Experience #2456 - Michael Jai White

Michael Jai White is an actor, director, writer, and martial artist. His latest film, “Oscar Shaw,” is available to stream on digital platforms. https://www.youtube.com/@RealMichaelJaiWhite https://www.patreon.com/MichaelJaiWhite https://www.michaeljaiwhite.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Visit https://ThreatLocker.com/JRE to learn more

Joe RoganhostMichael Jai Whiteguest

Feb 18, 20262h 47mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,015 words

0:02 – 3:22
Catching up in LA: geography, friends, and earthquake anxiety
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!
2. SPSpeaker
  The Joe Rogan Experience.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music] Dude, you're all suited up. You got a Wild Card Boxing hat on-
4. MWMichael Jai White
  [laughing]
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... a Bruce Lee shirt. Come on, son! [laughing]
6. MWMichael Jai White
  Hey, we got the, the, the yellow and, uh, thing going on.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, you got it all going on.
8. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  What's happening? Great to see you.
10. MWMichael Jai White
  Man, things are really well.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  That's good.
12. MWMichael Jai White
  This thing is a little loud.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Is it? There's a, on that thing there, there's a little volume-
14. MWMichael Jai White
  Okay
15. JRJoe Rogan
  ... knob. You can turn that sucker down.
16. MWMichael Jai White
  There it is.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Last time I saw you was at Terry Black's Barbecue.
18. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, yeah.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Random run-in.
20. MWMichael Jai White
  That, yeah, that was crazy.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  That was crazy.
22. MWMichael Jai White
  That was crazy. Yeah, man, I was thinking about going there right after this. I'm like, "What? Terry Black's?"
23. JRJoe Rogan
  That place rules.
24. MWMichael Jai White
  That place was no joke.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  That place rules.
26. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
28. MWMichael Jai White
  Man, I got-
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Are you still in LA?
30. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
3:22 – 7:00
The 1994 Northridge quake and a ‘spidey sense’ escape
1. MWMichael Jai White
  I was in the middle of that one. I just... I came into LA.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, you were there?
3. MWMichael Jai White
  Dude, I don't even like to tell the story about what happened during that '94 earthquake-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, wow
5. MWMichael Jai White
  ... because it, it sounds like bullshit. But literally, I get [laughing] I got up, ran out of my house, um, my apartment at the time, jumped off the balcony, and watched it happen.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  You watched the house collapse?
7. MWMichael Jai White
  I watched the earthquake happen from outside.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, wow!
9. MWMichael Jai White
  It's, it's, like, no bullshit. Everybody... Uh, so I thought, "Oh, shit, I overreacted. I had a bad dream." I, I lived on the first, uh, floor of this apartment building. All I know is, I wake up, I'm off balance, catching my balance in the parking lot, right? And like, "Oh, shoot! I gotta find the guard to get me back in the, in, in the apartment building," right? And I'm thinking, "What... You know, what, what, what's..." Like, I've lost my mind or something. The next thing you know, everything shakes, and the lights go out. Just go, it just everything gets black. And so I'm backing... I, I retreat back because I'm thinking the building's gonna fall on me. And I'm like, "Wait a minute." Then I got the, the, uh, story from everybody else that ex- that experienced it. They said that the first thing that happened was the, the building shook, and the lights went out. Well, I was outside watching that. So I'm outside when it happened, like some kind of canine.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  So what made you jump over the-
11. MWMichael Jai White
  I don't know.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  You had a feeling?
13. MWMichael Jai White
  Dude-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Or did you have, like, the fir- was the, the first rumbles?
15. MWMichael Jai White
  I thought, I thought it was... I thought I reacted to the, like, some kind of an aftershock or some kind of rumble. No, 'cause the girl that was with me-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  [laughing] You left her in the apartment? [laughing]
17. MWMichael Jai White
  [laughing] Dude! All she knows is that, "You jumped up, and you ran out of, you, you ran out of the house, and I heard the, the, the, uh, the door slide," and that was... And then the next thing you know, everything shook. She couldn't... She was trapped in there because there was a, uh, a closet door that trapped, um, trapped her in the hallway. So when I got back in the place, me and a friend had to try to pry the door open 'cause she couldn't get out. But I ran out of that place before the earthquake actually happened.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  How weird!
19. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  You got good instincts.
21. MWMichael Jai White
  I don't know what the hell that was. It ain't, I don't like-
22. JRJoe Rogan
  It has to be, 'cause it-
23. MWMichael Jai White
  I don't even like telling that story, 'cause it sounds like bullshit. [laughing]
24. JRJoe Rogan
  [laughing]
25. MWMichael Jai White
  'Cause it, it really happened that way. 'Cause then, then the guard, I talked to the guard, I'm like: "Hey, when did, when did the lights go out?" "Oh, it shook, and the lights went out." I'm like, "I-... I'm watching that happen, so-
26. JRJoe Rogan
  So you-
27. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm
28. JRJoe Rogan
  ... felt it happen before it happened? Man.
29. MWMichael Jai White
  Some kind of weird way.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, I bet humans have that.
7:00 – 10:52
Growing up fast: surviving Bridgeport, teaching karate at 15, and early fatherhood
1. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, I, I kind of have been like that growing up. Like, I've been, you know, I've been on my own since I was 14. Been through crazy shit that you'd nor- normally would see on movies.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  And that's the type of shit that-
3. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah
4. JRJoe Rogan
  ... gives you those kind of instincts.
5. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, but, but yeah, and I was always the one that said, "Hey, let's leave. Let's get out of here." And then, "Hey, man, there was a shootout that j- just happened right after you left." Or I could detect, like, the predators. You know what I mean?
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
7. MWMichael Jai White
  So I grew up kind of that way-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Right
9. MWMichael Jai White
  ... 'cause you have to survive in that.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  But nobody looking out for you. Yeah.
11. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Nobody was looking out for you, you had to look out for yourself.
13. MWMichael Jai White
  Well, yeah. I mean, I was... Oh, I was, I was, like, always the junior of the group a lot of times, 'cause like I said, I've, you know, I've been on my own since I was 14. I haven't grown an inch since I was 13, 14. I was... I looked like a grown-ass man, right? I was fighting in tournaments at 15 against, you know, uh, uh, grown men, like, you know, fighting heavyweight at that time. But I was always hanging with older people. Uh, kind of, you know, kind of like I got away with kind of living as an adult early on-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm
15. MWMichael Jai White
  ... because, like, you know-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Did you work?
17. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, well, I was teaching a karate sc- uh, a karate class. What, what was doing... What was, what was happening, see, I used to hang out at this community center in the hood. At this time, I'd moved from, from Brooklyn to Bridgeport, Connecticut, right?
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Bridgeport's a tough neighborhood.
19. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, yeah. It was a-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  A lot of people don't know.
21. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, we had the top murder rate per capita, man, like-
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Bridgeport's rough.
23. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, yeah, yeah. So I was, uh, constantly... I mean, there's a community center that was, like, my haven, and I would go practice with m- me and my other karate nuts, you know? And so I'd be in the, in the paper for winning heavyweight, you know, uh, competitions or whatever, and so the people that was running the community center said, "Why don't you teach a class?" They thought I was an adult.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, that's hilarious.
25. MWMichael Jai White
  [chuckles] And so I was teaching, like, a, you know, like, kind of, like, just under the table. I was getting paid under the table, basically. But I had, like, close to 200 students early on, like, when I'm 15, 16.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, that's crazy.
27. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, so you know, it was kind of, kind of a trip that, you know, which is one of the reasons why I was a father at 15.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
29. MWMichael Jai White
  You know, 'cause I had, uh, one of my student's older sister, you know-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm
10:52 – 13:03
Martial arts ‘nerd culture’ before it was popular: Legends, Bomb Squad, and old gym memories
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Somewhere, Eddie Bravo has to find this video. There's a video of us working out together at Legends-
2. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah
3. JRJoe Rogan
  ... where we were talking about hopping sidekicks-
4. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and different types of sidekicks, and you threw a... There was a bag that we had that had a shady chain.
6. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm-hmm.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  But the- regardless-
8. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm
9. JRJoe Rogan
  ... you threw a hopping sidekick on that chain, and the chain snapped and went flying. The bag went flying, and Eddie Bravo was like, "What the fuck?"
10. MWMichael Jai White
  [chuckles]
11. JRJoe Rogan
  It's a funny video, man.
12. MWMichael Jai White
  Right, yeah.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  I know Eddie has it somewhere. I'll probably... I'll, I'll text him after this and try to see if he can put it up on his Instagram or something-
14. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, man
15. JRJoe Rogan
  ... if he can find it.
16. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, back then, man, we were training when it wasn't even popular. You know-
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah
18. MWMichael Jai White
  ... I used to see you in the gym all the time.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
20. MWMichael Jai White
  All the time, man. And, and you were... Just think about this. Do you know it was 29 years ago, the last time you interviewed me?
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, that's right.
22. MWMichael Jai White
  29 years ago.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  That af- that Bob Costa show. He took a week off-
24. MWMichael Jai White
  Right
25. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and I guest hosted it for a week.
26. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
28. MWMichael Jai White
  And at that time, you were, you were already training with Maurice Smith.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes, Maurice was one of the guests.
30. MWMichael Jai White
  Right, and you, you were training-
13:03 – 19:40
Boxing craft, no-telegraph striking, and training with champions (Frankie Liles, Hearns, Sugar Ray)
1. MWMichael Jai White
  Frankie was, like, my, my best friend in the world, and he was, you know, he's a super middleweight champion of the world.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
3. MWMichael Jai White
  That's, that's who got me deeply into boxing. And so I would always be at his training camps, and, you know, I got to train with, like, uh, Tommy Hearns and-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, wow!
5. MWMichael Jai White
  ... all these, all these amazing people, like Sugar Ray and all these guys, man.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Frankie's a great boxing coach.
7. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, yeah. Yeah.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  He's one of the most technicals, mul- he's one of the most technical guys I've ever worked with.
9. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, he analyzes every aspect of your jab.
11. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  He's pulling in your elbow-
13. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, yeah
14. JRJoe Rogan
  ... he's tightening this, he's moving you here.
15. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  He's like, like, he's showing all the, like, various basic, little, tiny details-
17. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah
18. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that make all the difference in the world.
19. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, man, that, that-- he was my m- my, you know, personal boxing coach.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
21. MWMichael Jai White
  You know, I would, I would train with him, uh, uh, Joe Goossen early on. But, um, but Frankie, I mean, we really kind of combined a lot of things. 'Cause I started kind of teaching him things with the jab, like the un-telegraphed type of stuff, and he started applying that. And he would, he would bring me into stuff and, you know, have me sh- show people like Sugar Ray, like, "Oh, Mike, explain this jab," and I'm like, "What? I'm explaining this to Sugar Ray?-" [laughing] "This feels ridiculous," right?
22. JRJoe Rogan
  [laughing]
23. MWMichael Jai White
  But, but it was like... But it was like this combination, because like, I don't know, I'm, I'm very analytical, and I love technique, you know? And, and so I would just try to break things down, and my whole thing was always to pressure test things, you know? So if I could develop a tool or a s- a skill, and I-- and you can't stop it even if I tell you what's, what's, what I'm doing-
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm
25. MWMichael Jai White
  ... then it's a really good technique.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
27. MWMichael Jai White
  Then it's, then it's legit.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  The thing about no telegraph at all, it's so much more effective than a harder strike with a telegraph-
29. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, God, yeah
30. JRJoe Rogan
  ... because it lands.
19:40 – 26:11
Cross-training philosophy: why every style (even ‘non-real’ ones) makes you better
1. MWMichael Jai White
  I tell you, man, like, I don't... Like, as in life, there's always something that you can gain.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
3. MWMichael Jai White
  From the, you know, people wa- wanna, I don't know, people are in their own egos a lot of times. But, like, even wushu, me, it's, it's hard as hell for me doing wushu against guys half my size. It's not against, but the... It's a performance thing.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
5. MWMichael Jai White
  But if I can do all of it, can go to these, these very, uh, hard techniques of, like, get- I gotta get down to the floor, and I gotta d- and-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Body mastery
7. MWMichael Jai White
  ... a- a-m, yeah, at my size-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Right
9. MWMichael Jai White
  ... well, then, I'm better. So if I wanna kick you in the eyebrow, I can.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
11. MWMichael Jai White
  Because I'm... It's about, you know, y- having my body do what my mind's telling it to.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
13. MWMichael Jai White
  And so, but of course, people wanna dismiss it 'cause, "Oh, eh, that ain't real. You can't use it." Yeah, good. Yeah. Just like ballet is hard as hell. You can't use that either. But anybody, any heavyweight who put themself through ballet would be a better fighter.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  100%.
15. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Look at Lomachenko.
17. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  His dad taught him Ukrainian dance.
19. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm-hmm.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Lomachenko's dad pulled him out of boxing for two years when he was young-
21. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah
22. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and said, "You're just gonna do Uk- Ukrainian dance."
23. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  He's like, "What the fuck am I doing?"
25. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  But look at that guy's footwork.
27. MWMichael Jai White
  Exactly!
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Exactly.
29. MWMichael Jai White
  Exactly. And so, so it's, it's just that, as in life, man, I don't look at anything from one group and just discard any, any of the other stuff.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  I used to-
26:11 – 38:54
Old UFC questions: ‘best style,’ Gracie dominance, and why jiu-jitsu exposes truth
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, for me, and I'm sure for you as well, when we were young, there was always a question, "What is the best style? Is it Kyokushin? Is it judo?"
2. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  "Is it kung fu? What is it? What's the best style?" And no one really knew.
4. MWMichael Jai White
  Nah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  I mean, Benny the Jet fought in a bunch of those no-rules fights-
6. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm-hmm
7. JRJoe Rogan
  ... early, early on, but they never really took off. There wasn't, there wasn't a lot of those, you know?
8. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  And Benny was obviously a very special fighter.
10. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, yeah.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  But-
12. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, he was one of my teachers, too.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, yeah, yeah.
14. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  I trained at his gym. Those were f- I, he was on the podcast with Blinky, Blinky Rodriguez-
16. MWMichael Jai White
  Right, right, yeah
17. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and he came on-
18. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah
19. JRJoe Rogan
  ... recently, and I told him, I said, "When I came to LA, there was two places I had to go. I had to go to The Comedy Store, and I had to go to the Jet Center."
20. MWMichael Jai White
  Jet Center.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Had to go to the Jet Center.
22. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, yeah.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  And I was there in '94, right before it went under, because the, the earthquake damaged the roof.
24. MWMichael Jai White
  Exactly, yeah.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  And so when the rainy season came-
26. MWMichael Jai White
  On Friar Street, right?
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Uh, yep, yep.
28. MWMichael Jai White
  It was on Friar Street.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Yep, yep.
30. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
38:54 – 45:15
Fighters as modern heroes: Bisping’s cardio, helping athletes transition, and movies with Cowboy/Randy
1. MWMichael Jai White
  And so, like, some of the, the best times for me is like, I know when I was, you know, uh, Michael Bisping was getting ready for, uh, uh, to fight George St-Pierre, and we were in Thailand. I was like, "Yeah, you know, let's, let's like, like, mix it up. Let's-"
2. JRJoe Rogan
  What were you doing in Thailand?
3. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, we were doing a movie out there.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, wow!
5. MWMichael Jai White
  But he had to train. He was getting ready, uh, for the George St-Pierre fight. And so, you know, I was like, "Yeah, let's, let's do some rounds or whatever." And I, I got so winded-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  [laughing]
7. MWMichael Jai White
  ... the second round. I'm like, "Dude, just whoop my ass. I, I feel so s- like, like, [exhales] I'm embarrassed. I should never-"
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Bisping was a cardio machine.
9. MWMichael Jai White
  Yes, he was.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  He was a cardio machine.
11. MWMichael Jai White
  I didn't, I didn't expect that because we were... We spent all day on a yacht the day before, and he was drinking nonstop.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  [laughing]
13. MWMichael Jai White
  I'm a non-drinker, right? I'm like, "This guy's gonna, you know... Yeah, I'm gonna probably take it easy on him today." [laughing] It's like, no.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  He is one of the toughest motherfuckers that ever fought in the sport.
15. MWMichael Jai White
  I swear.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  And this is what I say about him: no matter what y- you think about watching his fights-
17. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm
18. JRJoe Rogan
  ... you have to understand, not only did he accomplish so much, he accomplished a lot of it with one eye.
19. MWMichael Jai White
  One eye. Yes.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  One fucking eye.
21. MWMichael Jai White
  Yes.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  He had 11 fights in the UFC with a winning record-
23. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm
24. JRJoe Rogan
  ... with one eye.
25. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Crazy!
27. MWMichael Jai White
  Yes. Yeah, that, that's... Man.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  He would memorize the eye chart-
29. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm
30. JRJoe Rogan
  ... so that when they covered his eye, he could sight it out like he could read it.
45:15 – 57:23
Rage, sensitivity, and giving back: from special-ed teacher to inner-city mentorship
1. MWMichael Jai White
  I, I, and I ended up beating up the football coach.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, no.
3. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, I had a, I... Dude, like, I had, I had the worst temper than anybody I'd ever seen. I mean, I used to go into fits of rage. I was so angry early on, man. It's like the Hulk is like, "Mike, you should chill out a little bit, man."
4. JRJoe Rogan
  [chuckles]
5. MWMichael Jai White
  Like, I, I was just-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  It's probably from being on your own at 14.
7. MWMichael Jai White
  [chuckles] Yeah, you know, what it is, is, like, I was growing up in a very harsh environment, and I was... I didn't know I was an artist. I didn't know I was a writer, director, whatever. You know, they didn't... You didn't see those growing up where I am.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
9. MWMichael Jai White
  And so when you're a sensitive kid, man, what you do is you, you build armor. Like, I was to play Mike Tyson later on, and I understood him quite well. Uh, and if you're sensitive, you, you know, w- anything that's precious, you put it in a, you lock it in a safe, and you become the safe. And it's, it's like I grew up, my brothers were completely different. They're, they're engineers, so things rolled off their back. But, like, for me, just, I was just volatile. And, uh, luckily, I had martial arts to kind of foc- put my focus into. But like I said, like a, like I was to play Mike Tyson, I understood him a, a great deal. And, you know, even though you take the moniker of this monster, it's only to hide what's really deep inside. And that's why you would see, if anybody's gonna go into tears in front of a, a million people, it's people like Mike Tyson. And you go, "How does that fit in the same person?"
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
11. MWMichael Jai White
  And so that's what I was growing up. And, you know, I don't know if you know this, but I, I was a, I was a schoolteacher before I was an actor.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, really?
13. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, I taught EMD. I was a, a special ed teacher.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
15. MWMichael Jai White
  So I focused on a lot of kids who were very much like me, and I still do that. In a way, I consider that my real job. Whenever I'm off from work on a movie or whatever, I go into the inner cities, I go into community centers, I de- devote my time, 'cause there's nothing that I could do... There's no better spending of time than something like that. Because I, I was luckily, luckily saved. I had just at the right times in my life, just different seeds planted. And so I'm, I'm confident that if those seeds were not planted, I would not be here. 'Cause like I say, I was [chuckles] I've been through, uh, some, some crazy stuff.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  It's a classic story.
17. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, bro. Man, like, I tell you, like, just little under two years ago, a buddy of mine, who's a close friend of mine, um, he, he got out of prison. He was in prison for almost, like, 30 years, and he found me on Facebook. And so when I went back east, we, we linked up, and I s- uh, and, you know, I know a lot of people who has, have, I don't know, businesses and everything. I hooked him up, you know, got him a job, and we were sitting over lunch. And in the middle of him telling me, like, the third or fourth s- story, like-... back in the glory days of us or whatever. While he was in the middle of this story, I was, I was, you know, kind of getting myself set to kind of set him straight, because I don't know if you wanna call it superstitious, but I won't lie. I, I refuse to lie to my friends. I even... I won't lie by omission. Um, so I was getting set to tell him, "Dude, man, you gotta stop embellishing on these stories. Just because you were locked up and you made these stories sound bigger than, than life-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Right
19. MWMichael Jai White
  ... I get it, but you're- that's not real. You gotta, you gotta really, you know, kinda not do that." And in the middle of me thinking that, and I'm listening to him, I go, "Holy shit, he's telling the truth." I started remembering what he was telling me.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
21. MWMichael Jai White
  And I'm like, now I'm finishing his sentences. Not only was that story true, but the other ones were true, too. And dude, like, I swear, every time I think about this, I, I got these goosebumps, and I realize, oh, my God, how close I was to being where he was, or just not being on this planet.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
23. MWMichael Jai White
  Like, I better devote my time into helping kids the way I was helped.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, don't pull that ladder up.
25. MWMichael Jai White
  No, no, hell no. Hell no. Even if I'm taken out, I, I accept that. Even if I'm in some projects where, where I'm not supposed to be, and I shouldn't have been, I accept that. Because, dude, I am abundantly lucky. I... Like, it's- it doesn't even, it doesn't even fit on the radar how lucky I am. And I could remember a lot of these crazy stories, uh, you know, aside from the ones that he made me conjure back up. But man, I'm like, "Wow!"
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, that speaks to your character, that you had downplayed it all in your mind so much that you thought he was exaggerating.
27. MWMichael Jai White
  I swept it under the rug.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
29. MWMichael Jai White
  I, I, you know-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  'Cause you're not that person anymore.
57:23 – 1:03:51
Near-fights and Hollywood: the Wesley Snipes negotiation story and identity traps
1. MWMichael Jai White
  I, I, I always thought at one time, "I'm gonna be called out," you know? And I thought, "Oh, I'll, I'll, I'll rise to that occasion if that, that happens." And, you know, kind of like [chuckles] I remember the thing with you and Wesley.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, yeah. [chuckles]
3. MWMichael Jai White
  Which would've been... Oh, my God, that would've been terrible. But, um-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  [laughs]
5. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, yeah, but, uh, but I always thought, "Hey, well, you know, maybe, you know, something-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  I think Wesley just needed money. I mean, that was why he was grappling.
7. MWMichael Jai White
  I don't, I don't, I don't think he'd ever be s- I don't think that was ever serious, but it's, it's very much like I think-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  We were, we were in negotiation for quite a while, man.
9. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, but-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  We had lawyers involved.
11. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, it's always easy to pull the plug on something like that. Just like Jean-Claude's talking about fighting, uh, Jake, Jake Paul, right? [chuckles]
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Is he talking about that right he's 100 years old?
13. MWMichael Jai White
  I just said, I just said, yeah. I'm like-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  He weighs 50 pounds. He's 100 years old. [laughs]
15. MWMichael Jai White
  I'm like, "Come on, man. Come on."
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Is he really talking about fighting Jake Paul? [laughs]
17. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, I, I, I just saw something-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh
19. MWMichael Jai White
  ... in the last couple of days. I'm like, "Okay."
20. JRJoe Rogan
  I think Wesley was serious because I think they had, um, they had hit him with that tax case, and he owed a lot of money to the government.
21. MWMichael Jai White
  No, this is before that tax case.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  No, no, no, it was in the middle of it.
23. MWMichael Jai White
  Really?
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, 100%. I know it was.
25. MWMichael Jai White
  Huh?
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Yeah, it was 2000, I wanna say 5 or 6. It was in the middle of all that-
27. MWMichael Jai White
  Wow
28. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and he was in trouble. It was, it was serious.
29. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  And he w- you know, obviously eventually wound up going to jail.
1:03:51 – 1:19:59
Superhero fatigue, ‘believability,’ and why Spawn still matters
1. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, and, you know, it's, it's... I'm not a big fan of those things. I, I, I, I know it's not m- they, they didn't design it for people like me. [chuckles]
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
3. MWMichael Jai White
  So it's made... It's for the fan base, and to me, it's like, ugh, you know, I... They, they s- they tend to meld into each other, as far as I'm concerned.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  They do.
5. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  They do.
7. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  There's only so many times you can tell the stories.
9. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm-hmm.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  There's only so m- you know.
11. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  But I, I still enjoy them.
13. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  I still enjoy some of them.
15. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  They're fun.
17. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, I, I, I, I like when people are believable.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
19. MWMichael Jai White
  Believable. Um-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, there's nothing believable about those movies. [chuckles]
21. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, you know, I like the actors that are like, you know, have some quirkiness and some, some, you know, edge to them, right?
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
23. MWMichael Jai White
  So yeah, yeah. Um, uh, you know, maybe I'm being unfair, 'cause I haven't really hadn't seen a lot. Maybe I ow- owe it to myself-
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Nah
25. MWMichael Jai White
  ... to give some of... [chuckles]
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Nah, I think you, you got it.
27. MWMichael Jai White
  [laughing]
28. JRJoe Rogan
  They're- it's simple entertainment.
29. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  It's a silly release, an escape.
1:19:59 – 1:30:00
Creating your own lane: Black Dynamite, writing process, and building action that feels real
1. MWMichael Jai White
  I believe you gotta create your own stuff, man. Like, uh, put it this way: nobody was gonna write Black Dynamite for me.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Right, right, right.
3. MWMichael Jai White
  You know what I mean?
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
5. MWMichael Jai White
  I had to... You know, my thing is largely creating my own lane.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  That was a fun movie, by the way.
7. MWMichael Jai White
  Well, thanks, man. Thanks.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Really fun.
9. MWMichael Jai White
  Thanks, man. So yeah, man, so [exhales] I, I- luckily, like, I, I enjoyed writing. I've w- I was always looked at everything from a... I was always fascinated about this industry, and, uh, I sold a lot of things as a writer, separate from the acting thing. And so, you know, just putting it all together is something that's, like, I really enjoy doing.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  How do you dedicate your time when you're writing? Do you, do, do you just, like, have an idea and say, "Okay, for the next X weeks, I'm gonna sit down and dedicate myself to this?"
11. MWMichael Jai White
  Dude, it's all different. A lot of times, I will see the entire movie.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
13. MWMichael Jai White
  Like, when I did Black Dynamite, dude, I was, I was in China getting- going to set, and I was in, uh, in Shanghai. And I was listening to James Brown's Super Bad, and I just started thinking about... I'm goof- I'm laughing. I'm in the back of this car, and there's a driver wondering what the hell is going on with me. I'm seeing the whole goddamn movie, i- including a nunchuck fight scene with, with Richard Nixon. [laughing]
14. JRJoe Rogan
  [laughing]
15. MWMichael Jai White
  And, and, and I'm la- I'm laughing, and, you know, I started jotting stuff down because I was... It occurred to me, man, like, I just, like... I remember one day, I was thinking, like, wow, man, like, growing up, we had Shaft, and we had, we had, uh, Super Fly, and The Mack, and, and all that, posters like that, that we idolized.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
17. MWMichael Jai White
  And I'm going, "Those were pimps. There was something wrong with my childhood. Why am I..." [laughing]
18. JRJoe Rogan
  [laughing]
19. MWMichael Jai White
  I'm like, "What? The Mack?"
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
21. MWMichael Jai White
  "Like, that's a hero?"
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
23. MWMichael Jai White
  And so it made me really think about it, and I'm like... Then I'm looking at these movies and, like, Jim, Jim Brown and Fred Williamson are, like, killing, like, 60 people, and it's okay. [chuckles]
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
25. MWMichael Jai White
  Everybody's like this... They have a club, and then they got all these women, and all this... And I'm like, this is actually hilarious, so I do a movie that depicted it exactly like it is. Thinking about this, one of the bi- biggest movies of that time was Three the Hard Way. I don't know if you remember that movie. Jim Brown, Fred Williamson, and Jim Kelly.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, yeah.
27. MWMichael Jai White
  Now-
28. JRJoe Rogan
  I forgot about Jim Kelly
29. MWMichael Jai White
  ... Three the Hard Way, what was it about? It had the three predominant blaxploitation stars, right? And the movie was about an evil Dr. Feather, who had these liters of liquid that he was gonna put in the water systems of LA, Chicago, and New York, that were gonna kill all the Black people. It's not a comedy.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  That's the movie?
1:30:00 – 1:41:35
Guns, CQB training, and competition: Taran Tactical, Delta Force friends, and ‘levels’
1. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, well, I, I got something that's kind of in that vein that I just finished. There's a lot of body count, but a lot, with a lot of CQB. I've been s- I've been studying that for a while. Uh, a lot, lot of like-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  What is CQB?
3. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, cl- close quarter combat.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, okay.
5. MWMichael Jai White
  You got close quarter battle. Um, but, um, you know, I've been doing, like, you know, uh, a lot of, like, tactical training, and kind of getting myself... I, I may, I may compete at, at some point.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, really?
7. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, yeah. I've be- I've gotten pretty into it. My, my-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Where do you train at?
9. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, a lot of places. I, I train with a guy named, uh, Tyler Gray. He's Delta Force. Uh, a lot... I got a lot of friends who are, like, you know, Special Force guys, and-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  You ever go to Taran Tactical?
11. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, of course.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
13. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
15. MWMichael Jai White
  I go... Yeah, I go to, to Taran quite a bit. Uh-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  That guy's the best.
17. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, yeah, he's, he's a... Man, he's a m- amazing. He-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  You wanna talk about someone who's very technical.
19. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, my God, it's just... [scoffs] He shoots from the hip-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm
21. MWMichael Jai White
  ... like, better than anybody who's using a laser, you know?
22. JRJoe Rogan
  No, he's pre-
23. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah
24. JRJoe Rogan
  ... preposterous.
25. MWMichael Jai White
  It's un- it's unreal.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Always iron sights.
27. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, he doesn't... I mean, he uses red dots, but-
29. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah
30. JRJoe Rogan
  ... you know, he prefers iron sights. He's like, "They never fail, they never go wrong."
1:41:35 – 1:50:18
Kyokushin trials, rites of passage, and ‘discipline as addiction’ (plus AI Khabib rant)
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, you did the whole thing, like, where you have to fight, like, 100 guys in a day? You did all that shit, right?
2. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, yeah, well, I've done the 30 Man.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. [laughs]
4. MWMichael Jai White
  I haven't done the 100, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Not that I'm exaggerating, but it's like-
6. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, yeah
7. JRJoe Rogan
  ... a lot of people.
8. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, yeah, which is the toughest... Honestly, it's a, I, I love it, but it was the toughest thing I'd ever, I ever had to really face. Because you come to a point where you wanna give up, and you have to just, you know, kind of walk the burning sands.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  What is it like walking the next day?
10. MWMichael Jai White
  [laughs] Man, I had... I mean, I remember the first time I did a 10 Man, and I had several knees on my legs, put it that way. So because they, they destroy your legs so bad.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
12. MWMichael Jai White
  Right? I did a 20 Man one other time and made the mistake of, uh, having a, um... I had, like, a, a energy drink beforehand, which is stupid, because now my heart is racing higher than normal, and so [chuckles] it made it even harder. But somewhere around, like, inevitably, you get to a place where I remember the 12th guy, I'm like, "What the fuck are you doing? Why are you here?" You know? But you have to dig deep.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  And you got 18 more to go. [laughs]
14. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, "Man..." But honestly-
15. JRJoe Rogan
  It's a hard, such a hard style.
16. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, but man, it's something about getting... You know, 'cause you're, you're gonna be faced with yourself. You're gonna be... Y- you wanna quit, and you have to just dig down and get through it, and there's nothing like it when you accomplish it, uh, because you know where you can go. You know that most of the time, you, you're, you tell yourself you're done, you're not. What a valuable lesson it is-
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm
18. MWMichael Jai White
  ... to know that about yourself.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
20. MWMichael Jai White
  And you can't... There's no substitute for that, and it's just something that you just benefit. Uh, I remember the last time I did this, um, we had to train out in, um, in, uh, Banff, Canada. Because usually these things are in Japan, and people from all over the style, they come, and they train you. You're, like, training eight hours a day. You got these little lunch breaks, and I didn't think it through. I, uh, I, I just, I think the last one was, like, about five, six years ago. I, you know, wanted to challenge myself. I wanted to do this, but I was by myself, and most people come with family members and all that kind of stuff.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  So you're by yourself, you're a movie star. [laughs]
22. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, and I have the target on my back, but it's like-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Of course!
24. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, so, and so... And it's like, we'd have a training thing, and then you got a, a certain amount of time to go eat, but then people wanna take pictures of me. And I'm the last guy to get into the-... [chuckles] then to the lunch thing, and then I was like, "Oh, shit, I got 10 minutes to eat, and then I gotta get back in the next training session."
25. JRJoe Rogan
  And you have a full stomach.
26. MWMichael Jai White
  I- i- yeah, and then, then you got like... I mean, it kinda sucked, but I, I taught myself something. I said, "You know, you could be three hours in," I'd tell myself, "I just got here. I just got here," and I'd dig deeper, and then whatever. And then the last few days, you're just fighting down to the last person. And, you know, there's people that's like, you know, they got their, their eye on you 'cause like, you know, I've got the bullseye on me. But the great thing is, dude, I, like I say, I learned a lot. I'm, I'm doing footwork with Frankie for years. I'm... I have boxing technique. I've got Benny Urquidez. Bill Wallace was my instructor. I've got so many things in my arsenal, and to test myself, it's such a, it's such a great benefit to, to, you know... And it was weird because I was thinking like, "Am I insane?" 'Cause I had a movie that I was gonna be starting in, in, uh, like, a week later. I could've just been messed up. I could've had a broken leg or whatever. A lot of times you leave with a souvenir, they call it. Like, you know, when you train in Japan, a lot of the Japanese wanna give you a souvenir. That means a broken bone. But I had to try to, you know, overcome that. So in life, it's i- especially in this kind of coddled l- life I'm living, I don't get a chance to test myself that much, right?
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
28. MWMichael Jai White
  And, you know, yeah, I had to sh- you know, listen to my own complaints and sh- and shut the fuck up and get through it. Yeah, "Oh, it's not fair because everybody's taking pictures, and you're doing this, and w- and I'm by myself." No, no, that's not... The point is, get through it, you know?
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
30. MWMichael Jai White
  And I'm so glad to do that, and I always like to... I- that's why I like to train with champions and, and stuff because, you know, that's... Y- you, you want, you wanna get through things. You, it should be... You should be tested. I mean, as a m- if I had a religion, a, a large part of it, if I was the head of my own [chuckles] religious cult, would be that men go through something. There's a rites of passage.
1:50:18 – 2:02:13
New striking evolutions: Dagestani Muay Thai, Kyokushin calf-kick meta, and style crossovers
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, I'll tell you what, man, that part of the world, Dagestan, you wanna talk about a hard part of the world-
2. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, yeah. Yeah
3. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that is developing some of the baddest motherfuckers.
4. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Even in Muay Thai, there's this cat coming out of Muay Thai at a, out of Dagestan right now, Azadulla Imangazaliev, who's, like, 22 years old.
6. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  And he is fucking everybody up.
8. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  A Dagestani Muay Thai fighter.
10. MWMichael Jai White
  Really?
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Who has his own style. He's this tall, lanky dude who's one of the most terrifying strikers alive right now.
12. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  A lot of people think he's the best striker alive.
14. MWMichael Jai White
  Oh, man.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  And he's 22, 22 or 23 years old, and he's just fucking everybody up.
16. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  He fights for One FC. Give me a, a highlight reel of this cat.
18. SPSpeaker
  Well, this is just from a fight, I guess. Uh, the, the highlight reel didn't pop up right away, so I just went with the first fight.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  That's it. Best technical striker in the world.
20. SPSpeaker
  Yeah.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  That's it. Click on that. Just give me some of this. Just start it from the beginning. This dude, that tall dude with the beard?
22. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm-hmm.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Azadulla Imangazaliev. Watch this motherfucker. What a style he has! I mean, it's just this long, tall, lanky dude, perfect timing and measurement, and he just starts piecing dudes up.
24. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm.
25. SPSpeaker
  I think this is, like, his full fight.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, well, I don't think so.
27. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  If you scoot ahead, I think he fucks this guy up pretty quick.
29. SPSpeaker
  Yeah.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  I've seen this fight.
2:02:13 – 2:28:09
Giftedness vs. grit, Tyson and Ali deep dives, and fighter health/anti-aging paths
1. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, man, I, I realized something. When I was a... You know, I, I, I was, I was born with some gifts, okay? Uh, I did... And one thing that got me into college is decathlon.... I, a- out of, as a fluke, I jumped into a, a race w- against one of the, the, the, uh, fastest guys on the track team and beat him, right? And that was just a fluke, and the coach saw that. The track coach saw that and was like: "Oh, my God, you're fucking run- running for the school!" And this and I was like, "Oh, okay." I like, I was just like, uh... I didn't have anybody, any kind of adult that took a liking to me like that. And next thing you know, I'm on the track team. And I, and I started... I mean, I was really good, and then I wound up going to college because of that. And incidentally, that's the stuff that really kind of taught me, uh, to kind of, uh, evolve my martial arts. Because nowhere is there, um, a benefit of, like, f- cutting off fractions of seconds in movement like track.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
3. MWMichael Jai White
  Like, like when I'm doing the shot put, well, a lot of times I was competing against people that were ginormous, and all they had to do is stick their arm out, and their arc was gonna be better than mine. Well, I had to generate enough power to go at a 45-degree angle and a- and inertia and all that to get past them. And with running, of course, if you shoot the gun off, ev- all your motion has to go forward. If you go backward, you're gonna be a step behind everybody. So as far as efficiency of motion, I... All the things I had to do with track, I started applying in, in fighting.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
5. MWMichael Jai White
  And that's what kind of gave me cheat codes into things, to where being super efficient really helped, right? And so one thing would, like, kind of help the other, but like, yeah, a, a lot of... And my, my, my whole track thing was a great benefit, but I did learn that I was kind of, in a way, like the Bo Jacksons or the Herschel Walkers. I was gifted. And so when I would fight, I was, you know, I was a big guy that was fast, and it didn't... You know, that was kind of rare. So fighting was easy to me. But I learned that when I was as, the, the celebrated fighter, that was less of a good martial artist, because then I kind of would kind of flake off other things. Like, I wasn't-- I didn't try as hard as other people. And that's another thing, I don't know if Khabib really said [chuckles] but it was a thing that he said about those gifted people. A lot of people who are gifted were not the best fighters.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, that is a quote from him.
7. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
9. MWMichael Jai White
  Exact- yeah, and, and I-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah
11. MWMichael Jai White
  ... I took that, you know, that, that same thing, 'cause I realized, dude, you're, you're, you're, you're doing it wrong. You're... I mean, my philosophy was like, uh, I feel I, I adapted the philosophy of, okay, say, um, this kid, Sean, is 140 pounds, and there's me, and it takes me 1,000 kicks to become fatigued, and it takes him 100 kicks to f- become fatigued. And he pushes to 120, and I push to 1,001. Who's the better martial artist? He is, 'cause he's pushed into his comfort zone. He's pushing himself further. What if he one day gets to 1,000? For, for him to go from 100 to 1,000, that's gonna be a quality 900 [chuckles]
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
13. MWMichael Jai White
  ... that I don't have.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
15. MWMichael Jai White
  Me being the gifted one-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Right
17. MWMichael Jai White
  ... I'm looking at it and using the comparative method, saying, well, you know, you know... I mean, at the end of the year, I used to kick a basketball around. You know, I was, I had that ability. But when I started thinking about, well, what I... Comparing myself to other people, that was a wrong thing. So I said, "No, I'm gonna be like Sean. I wanna train to my ability, not in comparison to someone else." Uh, and that really taught me something as far as, like, a- again, why I put myself through these things and the benefit of it, by really, like, w- what the martial arts really teaches is, you know, and the fact that, yeah, I had these gifts, but if I, if I use those gifts as a crutch, I'm limiting what I can be.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Right, you're limiting your potential.
19. MWMichael Jai White
  Exactly.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
21. MWMichael Jai White
  And so I was-
22. JRJoe Rogan
  And oftentimes, it's too easy for the gifted guys.
23. MWMichael Jai White
  Mm-hmm.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  And so they kind of slack off.
25. MWMichael Jai White
  Right, yeah. So yeah, that, that's, that's w- and I realized that's what I was doing at one point.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  They also are not as comfortable with struggle.
27. MWMichael Jai White
  Absolutely.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  And co- being comfortable with struggle is a very important part of growth.
29. MWMichael Jai White
  Yeah, yeah.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  And-

Episode duration: 2:47:20

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Catching up in LA: geography, friends, and earthquake anxiety

The 1994 Northridge quake and a ‘spidey sense’ escape

Growing up fast: surviving Bridgeport, teaching karate at 15, and early fatherhood

Martial arts ‘nerd culture’ before it was popular: Legends, Bomb Squad, and old gym memories

Boxing craft, no-telegraph striking, and training with champions (Frankie Liles, Hearns, Sugar Ray)

Cross-training philosophy: why every style (even ‘non-real’ ones) makes you better

Old UFC questions: ‘best style,’ Gracie dominance, and why jiu-jitsu exposes truth

Fighters as modern heroes: Bisping’s cardio, helping athletes transition, and movies with Cowboy/Randy

Rage, sensitivity, and giving back: from special-ed teacher to inner-city mentorship

Near-fights and Hollywood: the Wesley Snipes negotiation story and identity traps

Superhero fatigue, ‘believability,’ and why Spawn still matters

Creating your own lane: Black Dynamite, writing process, and building action that feels real

Guns, CQB training, and competition: Taran Tactical, Delta Force friends, and ‘levels’

Kyokushin trials, rites of passage, and ‘discipline as addiction’ (plus AI Khabib rant)

New striking evolutions: Dagestani Muay Thai, Kyokushin calf-kick meta, and style crossovers

Giftedness vs. grit, Tyson and Ali deep dives, and fighter health/anti-aging paths

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