Joe Rogan Experience #2456 - Michael Jai White

Joe Rogan 0:02 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

Speaker 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music] Dude, you're all suited up. You got a Wild Card Boxing hat on-

Michael Jai White 0:15 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 0:15 ... a Bruce Lee shirt. Come on, son! [laughing]

Michael Jai White 0:17 Hey, we got the, the, the yellow and, uh, thing going on.

Joe Rogan 0:22 Yeah, you got it all going on.

Michael Jai White 0:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:23 What's happening? Great to see you.

Michael Jai White 0:25 Man, things are really well.

Joe Rogan 0:27 That's good.

Michael Jai White 0:27 This thing is a little loud.

Joe Rogan 0:28 Is it? There's a, on that thing there, there's a little volume-

Michael Jai White 0:32 Okay

Joe Rogan 0:32 ... knob. You can turn that sucker down.

Michael Jai White 0:33 There it is.

Joe Rogan 0:34 Last time I saw you was at Terry Black's Barbecue.

Michael Jai White 0:36 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:37 Random run-in.

Michael Jai White 0:38 That, yeah, that was crazy.

Joe Rogan 0:39 That was crazy.

Michael Jai White 0:39 That was crazy. Yeah, man, I was thinking about going there right after this. I'm like, "What? Terry Black's?"

Joe Rogan 0:44 That place rules.

Michael Jai White 0:44 That place was no joke.

Joe Rogan 0:45 That place rules.

Michael Jai White 0:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:46 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 0:46 Man, I got-

Joe Rogan 0:47 Are you still in LA?

Michael Jai White 0:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:50 What's it like?

Michael Jai White 0:52 It's cool, man, you know?

Joe Rogan 0:53 Is it?

Michael Jai White 0:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:53 You like it? You're the only person that said that. [laughing]

Michael Jai White 0:56 [laughing] No, no. Yeah, well, 'cause, uh... Okay, I, I defend LA in a way where, first of all, if you got a handful of good people with you, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:05 Yeah

Michael Jai White 1:05 ... and your fam- then it's, then it-

Joe Rogan 1:06 Sure

Michael Jai White 1:07 ... it is... So the fact that LA has all kinds of different things. You could be on a hiking trail in 20 minutes, you could be-

Joe Rogan 1:14 Oh, geographically-

Michael Jai White 1:15 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:15 ... it's amazing.

Michael Jai White 1:16 Yeah, and the l- and the weather, you can't-

Joe Rogan 1:17 Oh, you can't beat it

Michael Jai White 1:18 ... you can't really beat it. But so if you got good people, good friends with you-

Joe Rogan 1:22 Yeah

Michael Jai White 1:22 ... then, then it's all good.

Joe Rogan 1:23 You just run by crooks. [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:26 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:26 It's a nice neighborhood run by the mob. [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:28 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:28 It's run by the woke mob.

Michael Jai White 1:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30 But, I mean, geographically, you can't beat it. You could be at the ocean, and then you could-

Michael Jai White 1:34 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:34 ... be in the mountains in two hours.

Michael Jai White 1:36 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:37 Yeah, so, you know, that's, that's... Even if you don't partake, it's still cool.

Joe Rogan 1:42 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:42 It still amps up the, uh, the, the ante, really.

Joe Rogan 1:45 Oh, yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:46 Like, the spot itself is magical.

Michael Jai White 1:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49 It is a magical place to live. Although, I am deeply concerned that that motherfucker's gonna get hit with a big one soon.

Michael Jai White 1:56 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:57 Um-

Michael Jai White 1:57 It's about time, right?

Joe Rogan 1:58 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:59 I was, I was reading this article about massive earthquakes in California-

Michael Jai White 2:04 Mm

Joe Rogan 2:04 ... and how often they're spread out.

Michael Jai White 2:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:06 And the possibility of one of them happening within the next decade, it's very high.

Michael Jai White 2:10 Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I try not to think about that. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 2:14 Yeah. I try not to think about it, too, but-

Michael Jai White 2:15 Yeah, yeah, but, um, you know, and, and now there's... You know, you can... I think they have b- better detection of that stuff now, too.

Joe Rogan 2:24 Mm-mm.

Michael Jai White 2:25 It's better. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 2:26 N- it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. They can't detect.

Michael Jai White 2:30 Well-

Joe Rogan 2:30 Do you remember what happened in Italy? A c- a couple guys got arrested and went to jail.

Michael Jai White 2:35 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:35 They were seismologists-

Michael Jai White 2:37 Mm

Joe Rogan 2:37 ... because the, the company, the country rather, didn't understand the ability to detect it.

Michael Jai White 2:43 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:43 They had a big earthquake, and a bunch of people died, and so they blamed these geologists or seismologists.

Michael Jai White 2:49 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:49 They wound up winning in court on, on appeal-

Michael Jai White 2:52 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:52 ... 'cause eventually the science was revealed. Like, hey, there's no fucking way you can really tell.

Michael Jai White 2:57 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:57 But they hung these guys out. They blamed these guys on not being able to detect it.

Michael Jai White 3:02 Man. Well, I mean, just think about it. The, the last crazy ones were '72 and then '94.

Joe Rogan 3:09 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 3:10 Right?

Joe Rogan 3:10 I think it was '93. I came, I moved to LA-

Michael Jai White 3:12 Mm

Joe Rogan 3:12 ... right after the last big one.

Michael Jai White 3:14 Mm.

Joe Rogan 3:14 I saw one of the sections of the highway that had collapsed on the other one.

Michael Jai White 3:18 Mm.

Joe Rogan 3:18 I remember driving by going, "Fuck this place!" [laughing]

Michael Jai White 3:22 I was in the middle of that one. I just... I came into LA.

Joe Rogan 3:25 Oh, you were there?

Michael Jai White 3:26 Dude, I don't even like to tell the story about what happened during that '94 earthquake-

Joe Rogan 3:30 Oh, wow

Michael Jai White 3:30 ... because it, it sounds like bullshit. But literally, I get [laughing] I got up, ran out of my house, um, my apartment at the time, jumped off the balcony, and watched it happen.

Joe Rogan 3:46 You watched the house collapse?

Michael Jai White 3:48 I watched the earthquake happen from outside.

Joe Rogan 3:50 Oh, wow!

Michael Jai White 3:51 It's, it's, like, no bullshit. Everybody... Uh, so I thought, "Oh, shit, I overreacted. I had a bad dream." I, I lived on the first, uh, floor of this apartment building. All I know is, I wake up, I'm off balance, catching my balance in the parking lot, right? And like, "Oh, shoot! I gotta find the guard to get me back in the, in, in the apartment building," right? And I'm thinking, "What... You know, what, what, what's..." Like, I've lost my mind or something. The next thing you know, everything shakes, and the lights go out. Just go, it just everything gets black. And so I'm backing... I, I retreat back because I'm thinking the building's gonna fall on me. And I'm like, "Wait a minute." Then I got the, the, uh, story from everybody else that ex- that experienced it. They said that the first thing that happened was the, the building shook, and the lights went out. Well, I was outside watching that. So I'm outside when it happened, like some kind of canine.

Joe Rogan 5:00 So what made you jump over the-

Michael Jai White 5:02 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 5:03 You had a feeling?

Michael Jai White 5:04 Dude-

Joe Rogan 5:05 Or did you have, like, the fir- was the, the first rumbles?

Michael Jai White 5:08 I thought, I thought it was... I thought I reacted to the, like, some kind of an aftershock or some kind of rumble. No, 'cause the girl that was with me-

Joe Rogan 5:17 [laughing] You left her in the apartment? [laughing]

Michael Jai White 5:20 [laughing] Dude! All she knows is that, "You jumped up, and you ran out of, you, you ran out of the house, and I heard the, the, the, uh, the door slide," and that was... And then the next thing you know, everything shook. She couldn't... She was trapped in there because there was a, uh, a closet door that trapped, um, trapped her in the hallway. So when I got back in the place, me and a friend had to try to pry the door open 'cause she couldn't get out. But I ran out of that place before the earthquake actually happened.

Joe Rogan 5:59 How weird!

Michael Jai White 6:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:00 You got good instincts.

Michael Jai White 6:02 I don't know what the hell that was. It ain't, I don't like-

Joe Rogan 6:04 It has to be, 'cause it-

Michael Jai White 6:05 I don't even like telling that story, 'cause it sounds like bullshit. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 6:09 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 6:10 'Cause it, it really happened that way. 'Cause then, then the guard, I talked to the guard, I'm like: "Hey, when did, when did the lights go out?" "Oh, it shook, and the lights went out." I'm like, "I-... I'm watching that happen, so-

Joe Rogan 6:21 So you-

Michael Jai White 6:22 Mm

Joe Rogan 6:22 ... felt it happen before it happened? Man.

Michael Jai White 6:24 Some kind of weird way.

Joe Rogan 6:26 Well, I bet humans have that.

Michael Jai White 6:28 Mm.

Joe Rogan 6:28 Animals definitely have that. They talk about Thailand-

Michael Jai White 6:30 Mm

Joe Rogan 6:30 ... how they had that tsunami, and all the animals ran up to the highest point of the, of the island.

Michael Jai White 6:35 Mm.

Joe Rogan 6:36 They all just took off. It's like ev- they just knew instinctively.

Michael Jai White 6:40 I, I don't know. Eh, nothing like that has ever happened afterwards.

Joe Rogan 6:43 Mm.

Michael Jai White 6:44 But I, I gotta say, there's been... I've been lucky over the years.

Joe Rogan 6:48 Yeah, but you're a dude who's tuned in.

Michael Jai White 6:50 Mm.

Joe Rogan 6:50 You're tuned into your body, you're tuned into your environment. You're not gonna get caught slipping. Like, you probably felt something, and your spidey sense went off.

Michael Jai White 7:00 Yeah, I, I kind of have been like that growing up. Like, I've been, you know, I've been on my own since I was 14. Been through crazy shit that you'd nor- normally would see on movies.

Joe Rogan 7:13 And that's the type of shit that-

Michael Jai White 7:14 Yeah

Joe Rogan 7:14 ... gives you those kind of instincts.

Michael Jai White 7:15 Yeah, but, but yeah, and I was always the one that said, "Hey, let's leave. Let's get out of here." And then, "Hey, man, there was a shootout that j- just happened right after you left." Or I could detect, like, the predators. You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 7:29 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 7:29 So I grew up kind of that way-

Joe Rogan 7:32 Right

Michael Jai White 7:32 ... 'cause you have to survive in that.

Joe Rogan 7:32 But nobody looking out for you. Yeah.

Michael Jai White 7:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:34 Nobody was looking out for you, you had to look out for yourself.

Michael Jai White 7:37 Well, yeah. I mean, I was... Oh, I was, I was, like, always the junior of the group a lot of times, 'cause like I said, I've, you know, I've been on my own since I was 14. I haven't grown an inch since I was 13, 14. I was... I looked like a grown-ass man, right? I was fighting in tournaments at 15 against, you know, uh, uh, grown men, like, you know, fighting heavyweight at that time. But I was always hanging with older people. Uh, kind of, you know, kind of like I got away with kind of living as an adult early on-

Joe Rogan 8:13 Mm

Michael Jai White 8:13 ... because, like, you know-

Joe Rogan 8:15 Did you work?

Michael Jai White 8:16 Yeah, well, I was teaching a karate sc- uh, a karate class. What, what was doing... What was, what was happening, see, I used to hang out at this community center in the hood. At this time, I'd moved from, from Brooklyn to Bridgeport, Connecticut, right?

Joe Rogan 8:31 Bridgeport's a tough neighborhood.

Michael Jai White 8:32 Yeah, yeah. It was a-

Joe Rogan 8:33 A lot of people don't know.

Michael Jai White 8:35 Yeah, we had the top murder rate per capita, man, like-

Joe Rogan 8:37 Bridgeport's rough.

Michael Jai White 8:38 Oh, yeah, yeah. So I was, uh, constantly... I mean, there's a community center that was, like, my haven, and I would go practice with m- me and my other karate nuts, you know? And so I'd be in the, in the paper for winning heavyweight, you know, uh, competitions or whatever, and so the people that was running the community center said, "Why don't you teach a class?" They thought I was an adult.

Joe Rogan 9:07 Oh, that's hilarious.

Michael Jai White 9:07 [chuckles] And so I was teaching, like, a, you know, like, kind of, like, just under the table. I was getting paid under the table, basically. But I had, like, close to 200 students early on, like, when I'm 15, 16.

Joe Rogan 9:19 Oh, that's crazy.

Michael Jai White 9:20 Yeah, so you know, it was kind of, kind of a trip that, you know, which is one of the reasons why I was a father at 15.

Joe Rogan 9:27 Mm.

Michael Jai White 9:28 You know, 'cause I had, uh, one of my student's older sister, you know-

Joe Rogan 9:34 Mm

Michael Jai White 9:34 ... [chuckles] was like, had a crush on her, her, uh, on his, uh, instructor. But I was l- kind of living the life of a grown-up, like, early on. And so, you know, there's, there's a faction of people in Bridgeport who think I'm Satan, I guess, because they think that I'm probably in my 70s now. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 9:55 [laughing] You're a vampire.

Michael Jai White 9:57 Right. Uh, yeah, so there was... There, there's some people I had to admit, like, "Uh, no, I wasn't the age you thought I was back then."

Joe Rogan 10:03 Oh, that's crazy.

Michael Jai White 10:04 Yeah, yeah. But I mean, so yeah, you know, one of the things I, I, um, I'm really grateful for is growing up that early and having to, you know, use my instincts. And being that, you know, street fighting and, um, fighting was, like, my favorite thing to do, actually. And so with... When I got into the martial arts deeper and everything else, you know, I, I just, I just really, I really dug into it and wanted to learn this style, left this style, and this, you know, ev- everything.

Joe Rogan 10:36 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 10:36 I was just, um, a martial art nerd for it. But, um, but I also liked the, the, the realistic partion- portion of it, even though I was doing other styles like wushu and everything else. But, you know, it was a, it was actually my haven.

Joe Rogan 10:52 Somewhere, Eddie Bravo has to find this video. There's a video of us working out together at Legends-

Michael Jai White 10:59 Yeah

Joe Rogan 10:59 ... where we were talking about hopping sidekicks-

Michael Jai White 11:02 Mm

Joe Rogan 11:02 ... and different types of sidekicks, and you threw a... There was a bag that we had that had a shady chain.

Michael Jai White 11:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:07 But the- regardless-

Michael Jai White 11:09 Mm

Joe Rogan 11:09 ... you threw a hopping sidekick on that chain, and the chain snapped and went flying. The bag went flying, and Eddie Bravo was like, "What the fuck?"

Michael Jai White 11:17 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 11:17 It's a funny video, man.

Michael Jai White 11:19 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:19 I know Eddie has it somewhere. I'll probably... I'll, I'll text him after this and try to see if he can put it up on his Instagram or something-

Michael Jai White 11:25 Yeah, man

Joe Rogan 11:25 ... if he can find it.

Michael Jai White 11:26 Yeah, back then, man, we were training when it wasn't even popular. You know-

Joe Rogan 11:30 Yeah

Michael Jai White 11:30 ... I used to see you in the gym all the time.

Joe Rogan 11:32 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 11:32 All the time, man. And, and you were... Just think about this. Do you know it was 29 years ago, the last time you interviewed me?

Joe Rogan 11:41 Yeah, that's right.

Michael Jai White 11:42 29 years ago.

Joe Rogan 11:43 That af- that Bob Costa show. He took a week off-

Michael Jai White 11:47 Right

Joe Rogan 11:47 ... and I guest hosted it for a week.

Michael Jai White 11:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:49 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 11:49 And at that time, you were, you were already training with Maurice Smith.

Joe Rogan 11:52 Yes, Maurice was one of the guests.

Michael Jai White 11:54 Right, and you, you were training-

Joe Rogan 11:55 Yeah

Michael Jai White 11:55 ... 'cause I, I ended up training with Maurice Smith, you know, every time I'd go to Seattle. You know, we, we, we'd train together. So, you know, we were, like, part of this, like, kind of karate, m- martial art nerd culture-

Joe Rogan 12:07 Yeah

Michael Jai White 12:07 ... when it wasn't even popular.

Joe Rogan 12:09 No.

Michael Jai White 12:09 But I used to see you all the time.... you know, you and, you and, you know, doing jujitsu, Karl Parisien, and all these guys, uh, at Legends. Where, where was another place? There was- we had, there was Legends, and there was another place.

Joe Rogan 12:21 The Bomb Squad?

Michael Jai White 12:22 Yes.

Joe Rogan 12:22 The Bomb Squad-

Michael Jai White 12:23 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 12:23 ... was the first place-

Michael Jai White 12:24 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 12:24 ... that Eddie taught at, and then that place closed down, then we went to Legends.

Michael Jai White 12:27 Legends, yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:28 And then we moved to the other Legends that was, like, in, um, more East LA.

Michael Jai White 12:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:33 And then, uh, then Eddie started opening up his own place in downtown.

Michael Jai White 12:37 Right. Yeah, yeah, and that's where I would, I would train with Josh Barnett-

Joe Rogan 12:41 Yep

Michael Jai White 12:41 ... at that place-

Joe Rogan 12:42 Yep

Michael Jai White 12:42 ... quite a bit.

Joe Rogan 12:43 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 12:43 Yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 12:44 The old days. [laughing]

Michael Jai White 12:45 Yes, man, yeah. And who's, who would be coming through the j- 'cause I would, I was training, um, I was training Bob Sapp at one time, and then I-- that's how I got Frankie Liles c- connected into that-

Joe Rogan 12:57 Wow

Michael Jai White 12:57 ... that whole thing. And so-

Joe Rogan 12:59 I remember Frankie.

Michael Jai White 13:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:00 Frankie used to be at The Bomb Squad first.

Michael Jai White 13:02 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:03 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 13:03 Frankie was, like, my, my best friend in the world, and he was, you know, he's a super middleweight champion of the world.

Joe Rogan 13:08 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 13:08 That's, that's who got me deeply into boxing. And so I would always be at his training camps, and, you know, I got to train with, like, uh, Tommy Hearns and-

Joe Rogan 13:19 Oh, wow!

Michael Jai White 13:19 ... all these, all these amazing people, like Sugar Ray and all these guys, man.

Joe Rogan 13:23 Frankie's a great boxing coach.

Michael Jai White 13:25 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:25 He's one of the most technicals, mul- he's one of the most technical guys I've ever worked with.

Michael Jai White 13:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:29 Like, he analyzes every aspect of your jab.

Michael Jai White 13:32 Mm.

Joe Rogan 13:32 He's pulling in your elbow-

Michael Jai White 13:33 Oh, yeah

Joe Rogan 13:34 ... he's tightening this, he's moving you here.

Michael Jai White 13:36 Mm.

Joe Rogan 13:36 He's like, like, he's showing all the, like, various basic, little, tiny details-

Michael Jai White 13:41 Yeah

Joe Rogan 13:41 ... that make all the difference in the world.

Michael Jai White 13:43 Yeah, man, that, that-- he was my m- my, you know, personal boxing coach.

Joe Rogan 13:47 Mm.

Michael Jai White 13:48 You know, I would, I would train with him, uh, uh, Joe Goossen early on. But, um, but Frankie, I mean, we really kind of combined a lot of things. 'Cause I started kind of teaching him things with the jab, like the un-telegraphed type of stuff, and he started applying that. And he would, he would bring me into stuff and, you know, have me sh- show people like Sugar Ray, like, "Oh, Mike, explain this jab," and I'm like, "What? I'm explaining this to Sugar Ray?-" [laughing] "This feels ridiculous," right?

Joe Rogan 14:21 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 14:21 But, but it was like... But it was like this combination, because like, I don't know, I'm, I'm very analytical, and I love technique, you know? And, and so I would just try to break things down, and my whole thing was always to pressure test things, you know? So if I could develop a tool or a s- a skill, and I-- and you can't stop it even if I tell you what's, what's, what I'm doing-

Joe Rogan 14:46 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 14:47 ... then it's a really good technique.

Joe Rogan 14:49 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 14:49 Then it's, then it's legit.

Joe Rogan 14:50 The thing about no telegraph at all, it's so much more effective than a harder strike with a telegraph-

Michael Jai White 14:57 Oh, God, yeah

Joe Rogan 14:58 ... because it lands.

Michael Jai White 14:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:59 But it's so difficult to teach people that because everybody wants to hit everybody as hard as they can.

Michael Jai White 15:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:03 And especially if you have power, your instinct is to fucking [grunts] -

Michael Jai White 15:07 Yeah

Joe Rogan 15:07 ... to load up on everything. I remember I first saw you teaching that to Kimbo Slice.

Michael Jai White 15:12 Oh, yeah, yeah. I was-

Joe Rogan 15:12 You were on a movie set.

Michael Jai White 15:13 Yeah, yeah, 'cause, um, Kimbo... Oh, man, what a great guy, man.

Joe Rogan 15:17 What a great guy he was.

Michael Jai White 15:18 What a wonderful guy. So that's one thing about fighting: you, you can't hide your nature.

Joe Rogan 15:23 Right.

Michael Jai White 15:23 You know what I mean? You, i- people see who you are.

Joe Rogan 15:25 Right.

Michael Jai White 15:25 And he was a, he was a wonderful human being. Um, but like, but like a lot of people, like, almost like street basketball as opposed to, you know, uh, professional, you, you, you, you miss out on certain techniques that you need when you're, you're k- you're trying to step up.

Joe Rogan 15:43 Right.

Michael Jai White 15:43 And so, like, well, Kimbo, you know, he, he would, like a lot of people, he would kind of telegraph. And so when we were shooting the movie, uh, you know, and I basically- we had a cameraman that did not really know how to shoot stuff, so I just had to do everything on screen. And so I would, I would-- I just wanted to make everything very realistic.

Joe Rogan 16:07 Oh.

Michael Jai White 16:07 And so I, so Kimbo had this rubber knife, and I was like: "Try your best to touch me with the rubber knife." And so he would try, but before-- but as soon as he would move, there'd be a little bit of an indication that I'd see, and then I, I'd throw the punch, and it would go really close to him, and I'd have him react to that. But he was going, "Wait, wait a minute, how are you, how are you hitting me before I can get this knife out?" And then I, I told him, "You know, I'll show you what that is later." Because, you know, kind of like, not to be real nerdish about it, but, like, why, why are, like, 50- and 60-year-old trainers meeting people's hands, like a 20-year-old guy's or contender's hands, like this? You see-

Joe Rogan 16:53 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 16:53 ... the person with the pad moving just as much as the other guy, because there's an indication. There's... They, they do this b- beforehand. They're always kind of flexing and going in reverse before they go forward. So just for over years, I wouldn't do that, and I would exploit that, you know? So it's kind of like a cheat code that I'm like, "Hell, what the hell, what the hell I'm gonna do with it? I'm [chuckles] I'm an actor." So my thing is, just like yourself, when I see you, you know, with George St-Pierre and, and how we are al- always in the gym, we're, you know, we're kind of collaborating. We're, you know, we're, we're... It's about just getting better, not-

Joe Rogan 17:35 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 17:35 ... no ego or anything else like that. It's just like, "Hey, man, we're, like, kind of, you know, kind of like jamming on-

Joe Rogan 17:42 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 17:42 ... on technique and getting better." That's the high.

Joe Rogan 17:44 Well, especially if you're fighting with someone who has a different style than you.

Michael Jai White 17:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:48 'Cause there's always something in different styles that you could take out of it.

Michael Jai White 17:51 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 17:52 There's always something, and the- we're seeing that now.

Michael Jai White 17:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:54 There's all these different martial artists that are entering into MMA that have the- these different techniques that people haven't seen before.

Michael Jai White 18:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:02 And there's a lot of them that people dismiss, that you're finding are very effective-

Michael Jai White 18:06 Yeah

Joe Rogan 18:06 ... especially if you don't know how to do them, you don't know what they are. So you don't- you have, like, a database in your mind-

Michael Jai White 18:13 Mm

Joe Rogan 18:13 ... of movements. Like, you-... I'm sure you see when a guy's loading up on a spin.

Michael Jai White 18:17 Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:18 Everybody sees that.

Michael Jai White 18:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:18 But if you don't know that, you don't see it, right?

Michael Jai White 18:21 Right. And if you, uh, if you are loading up, then you're not gonna, uh, you're not gonna capitalize on it-

Joe Rogan 18:27 Right.

Michael Jai White 18:27 Because you-

Joe Rogan 18:28 Right

Michael Jai White 18:28 ... you don't, you know, you're taking a, there's a millisecond that you're taking-

Joe Rogan 18:31 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 18:31 ... because sh- your movement is not efficient.

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Michael Jai White 19:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:15 There's a move that still to this day, people aren't doing effectively when someone loads up, 'cause you could see the load up, and it's just a jam. It's just lifting your foot up-

Michael Jai White 19:24 Mm

Joe Rogan 19:24 ... and putting it on the hips.

Michael Jai White 19:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:26 And it's super effective in taekwondo because everybody's fast.

Michael Jai White 19:29 Right, right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:29 You know, everybody's trying to do that technique. But that jam of just lifting your foot up-

Michael Jai White 19:33 Mm

Joe Rogan 19:33 ... and just not trying to hit them hard, just putting that foot on the hip-

Michael Jai White 19:37 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 19:37 ... it fucks people up.

Michael Jai White 19:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:38 And I don't see anybody using that right now.

Michael Jai White 19:40 I tell you, man, like, I don't... Like, as in life, there's always something that you can gain.

Joe Rogan 19:45 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 19:46 From the, you know, people wa- wanna, I don't know, people are in their own egos a lot of times. But, like, even wushu, me, it's, it's hard as hell for me doing wushu against guys half my size. It's not against, but the... It's a performance thing.

Joe Rogan 20:02 Right.

Michael Jai White 20:02 But if I can do all of it, can go to these, these very, uh, hard techniques of, like, get- I gotta get down to the floor, and I gotta d- and-

Joe Rogan 20:15 Body mastery

Michael Jai White 20:16 ... a- a-m, yeah, at my size-

Joe Rogan 20:17 Right

Michael Jai White 20:18 ... well, then, I'm better. So if I wanna kick you in the eyebrow, I can.

Joe Rogan 20:22 Right.

Michael Jai White 20:22 Because I'm... It's about, you know, y- having my body do what my mind's telling it to.

Joe Rogan 20:28 Right.

Michael Jai White 20:28 And so, but of course, people wanna dismiss it 'cause, "Oh, eh, that ain't real. You can't use it." Yeah, good. Yeah. Just like ballet is hard as hell. You can't use that either. But anybody, any heavyweight who put themself through ballet would be a better fighter.

Joe Rogan 20:44 100%.

Michael Jai White 20:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:44 Look at Lomachenko.

Michael Jai White 20:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:46 His dad taught him Ukrainian dance.

Michael Jai White 20:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:48 Lomachenko's dad pulled him out of boxing for two years when he was young-

Michael Jai White 20:52 Yeah

Joe Rogan 20:52 ... and said, "You're just gonna do Uk- Ukrainian dance."

Michael Jai White 20:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:55 He's like, "What the fuck am I doing?"

Michael Jai White 20:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:56 But look at that guy's footwork.

Michael Jai White 20:57 Exactly!

Joe Rogan 20:58 Exactly.

Michael Jai White 20:59 Exactly. And so, so it's, it's just that, as in life, man, I don't look at anything from one group and just discard any, any of the other stuff.

Joe Rogan 21:07 I used to-

Michael Jai White 21:07 I mean, when I was young. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:09 And when I was young, I was pretty arrogant about certain things. I thought forms were stupid.

Michael Jai White 21:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:12 All I wanted to do was spar and hit the bag.

Michael Jai White 21:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:15 Then as I got older, I realized, "Oh, there's a lot of wisdom in all this shit."

Michael Jai White 21:18 Oh, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 21:19 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 21:19 It's... But yeah, but that's, uh, like I say, I try to apply that to life, period.

Joe Rogan 21:23 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 21:24 You know, I never look at anything from one perspective. I mean, I grew up in the hood, and I'm... You know, my favorite band is freaking, you know, the Eagles. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 21:33 [chuckles] Really?

Michael Jai White 21:34 And, and, and... Yeah, I mean, like, you know, and I'm listening to Joni Mitchell and all that, and people are like: "What are you doing listening..." I'm like, "What the fuck? You know, this, this is m- my life, man. Fuck you."

Joe Rogan 21:45 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 21:45 Like, do you, you hear these lyrics? Do you hear [chuckles] you hear Jo- Joni Mitchell's lyrics, man? What the fuck?" That's all for me, too. I mean, I'm just as passionate about, you know, Aerosmith as I am about the Isley Brothers.

Joe Rogan 21:58 Mm.

Michael Jai White 21:58 But, but I... It was- I've never looked at life as, "I have to think in this parameter." You know, "I've gotta be marginalized." That's, that's just... Man, come on, it's such a waste of life.

Joe Rogan 22:11 It is.

Michael Jai White 22:11 It's all for you, man, so-

Joe Rogan 22:13 I agree

Michael Jai White 22:14 ... with, with the martial arts and everything else, I look at every martial art, uh, just like everything else. Everything has something to contribute.

Joe Rogan 22:21 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 22:21 And just like all people have something to co- to contribute. Even an idiot, you can learn from an idiot. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 22:26 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 22:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:27 You can.

Michael Jai White 22:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:28 A lot of idiots say wise things occasionally.

Michael Jai White 22:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:30 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 22:30 Because everybody's going to have a quotient of, of legitimacy.

Joe Rogan 22:37 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 22:38 Ev- you know, maybe it may be 20% as a thing-

Joe Rogan 22:40 Right

Michael Jai White 22:40 ... and they don't see the 80%.

Joe Rogan 22:42 Right.

Michael Jai White 22:42 But until you acknowledge that 20%, they're not gonna hear you.

Joe Rogan 22:45 Right.

Michael Jai White 22:45 You know what I mean? So that's the thing, it's like, man, we're on this planet, and one of the things I, man, I, I, [exhales] I don't envy a whole lot of people, but I do, dude, I do envy you. Because you get to expand your world, you talk to so many interesting people, and that's h- I mean, how... What a great thing. What a great thing to just have all these type of perspectives-

Joe Rogan 23:08 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 23:09 ... and all that coming through. And I gotta say, man, I'm super proud of you, 'cause I, I know you as Joe from the gym, and look what you've done, man.

Joe Rogan 23:16 Thank you. Thank you.

Michael Jai White 23:16 Man, it's like that, that's a, that's a shot in the arm because it's like, people that you like and, and seeing them prosper, that's cool as shit. Like-

Joe Rogan 23:24 Yeah, I've learned a lot, man. And I, I didn't expect to. You know, when, when we first started doing this, it was just for fun. We'd just get together with our friends, you know?

Michael Jai White 23:32 But you knew what you wanted to do. Man, you, you were pretty damn clear, 'cause... Do you remember this? You remember me coming to, I th- I think it was the Ice House?

Joe Rogan 23:40 In Pasadena?

Michael Jai White 23:41 Yeah- Uh, no, no, no. Oh, shoot, it wasn't Ice House. It was in, it was in, uh, it was in Orange County. I came to see-

Joe Rogan 23:46 Comedy Magic Club, maybe?

Michael Jai White 23:47 I came to see you perform, and I, i, I, I, um, offered you the, the role in Blood and Bone. Do you remember that at all?

Joe Rogan 23:55 I do!

Michael Jai White 23:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:57 Yeah. Now I do now, yeah. Okay.

Michael Jai White 23:58 Yeah, because Blood and Bone, which is, like, actually Sony's most successful non-theatrical, that was basically a, a, a kinda a m- an, a reimagining of Hard Times with Charles Bronson-

Joe Rogan 24:13 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 24:13 ... and, um, uh, James Coburn.

Joe Rogan 24:16 ... quick movie.

Michael Jai White 24:17 Yes, well, that role was basically, that I was offering you, was the James Coburn role.

Joe Rogan 24:22 [chuckles]

Michael Jai White 24:22 Right? And but you were so, you was dead s- and you just said, "I don't, I don't wanna do this acting stuff. I wanna do, I wanna focus on what I..." You know, your, your interest, which was, you know, you, the stand-up and you, you getting together. Your, your... I mean, I know you and Eddie were doing, like, kind of the early podcast type of stuff or whatever.

Joe Rogan 24:42 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 24:42 And I'm like, man, you know, you really kind of knew what you wanted to do.

Joe Rogan 24:46 Well, the, the thing about acting is, uh, I mean, I admire it, especially good acting-

Michael Jai White 24:50 Yeah

Joe Rogan 24:50 ... but it takes a lot of time out of your day.

Michael Jai White 24:53 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:53 It's, it's a 16-hour day.

Michael Jai White 24:55 Mm.

Joe Rogan 24:55 It's a long day, and it, it will take away from other things you do.

Michael Jai White 25:00 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:00 And I saw that with a lot of comics, that they started doing acting-

Michael Jai White 25:04 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 25:04 ... and it would take away from their act, 'cause they really couldn't go and do sets every night.

Michael Jai White 25:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:08 They couldn't really polish their material. You could see the stuff getting a little clunkier.

Michael Jai White 25:12 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:14 And it's just, you gotta, you gotta focus. You gotta find the things you enjoy and focus on them.

Michael Jai White 25:18 Yeah, that's why, that's why I say I'm, I'm so proud of seeing... Just being there and seeing what you did, where you, you being a part of the UFC when it was nothing promised. You know what I mean? And-

Joe Rogan 25:30 Not only was it not promised-

Michael Jai White 25:31 Yeah

Joe Rogan 25:31 ... but people looked at you like you were doing, like, snuff films or something. [laughing]

Michael Jai White 25:34 [laughing] Exactly.

Joe Rogan 25:35 They, they looked at you like...

Michael Jai White 25:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:36 I remember the early days, man. Dana White always says this, "People would talk to you like you were doing porn or something."

Michael Jai White 25:41 [chuckles] Right, right.

Joe Rogan 25:42 Like, I was on NewsRadio-

Michael Jai White 25:43 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 25:43 ... the sitcom on NBC.

Michael Jai White 25:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:45 And I was doing commentary, where I was doing post-fight interviews-

Michael Jai White 25:48 Mm

Joe Rogan 25:48 ... for the UFC.

Michael Jai White 25:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:49 And they were like: "Why are you doing this?"

Michael Jai White 25:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:51 "Why are you flying to Alabama and doing cage fights?"

Michael Jai White 25:54 See, this is what movies are... Good movies are made of shit like this.

Joe Rogan 25:57 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 25:58 You know, and somebody just on, on, just out, out of their spirit, doing what they-

Joe Rogan 26:02 Yeah

Michael Jai White 26:03 ... wanna do, with, with no promise of anything, and then accomplishing something. So, you know, and kudos, man.

Joe Rogan 26:10 Oh, thank you.

Michael Jai White 26:10 Seriously, man.

Joe Rogan 26:11 Well, for me, and I'm sure for you as well, when we were young, there was always a question, "What is the best style? Is it Kyokushin? Is it judo?"

Michael Jai White 26:19 Mm.

Joe Rogan 26:19 "Is it kung fu? What is it? What's the best style?" And no one really knew.

Michael Jai White 26:23 Nah.

Joe Rogan 26:23 I mean, Benny the Jet fought in a bunch of those no-rules fights-

Michael Jai White 26:26 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 26:26 ... early, early on, but they never really took off. There wasn't, there wasn't a lot of those, you know?

Michael Jai White 26:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:31 And Benny was obviously a very special fighter.

Michael Jai White 26:34 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:34 But-

Michael Jai White 26:35 Yeah, he was one of my teachers, too.

Joe Rogan 26:36 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Michael Jai White 26:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:37 I trained at his gym. Those were f- I, he was on the podcast with Blinky, Blinky Rodriguez-

Michael Jai White 26:41 Right, right, yeah

Joe Rogan 26:41 ... and he came on-

Michael Jai White 26:42 Yeah

Joe Rogan 26:42 ... recently, and I told him, I said, "When I came to LA, there was two places I had to go. I had to go to The Comedy Store, and I had to go to the Jet Center."

Michael Jai White 26:48 Jet Center.

Joe Rogan 26:48 Had to go to the Jet Center.

Michael Jai White 26:49 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:49 And I was there in '94, right before it went under, because the, the earthquake damaged the roof.

Michael Jai White 26:56 Exactly, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:56 And so when the rainy season came-

Michael Jai White 26:57 On Friar Street, right?

Joe Rogan 26:58 Uh, yep, yep.

Michael Jai White 26:58 It was on Friar Street.

Joe Rogan 26:59 Yep, yep.

Michael Jai White 27:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:00 In Venice.

Michael Jai White 27:00 Right down from the Goosen's.

Joe Rogan 27:01 Yep.

Michael Jai White 27:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:02 Yeah, right down.

Michael Jai White 27:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:03 And, um, that, that was an honor, man, to be able to train in that gym.

Michael Jai White 27:07 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:08 That was incredible. It was an incredible place.

Michael Jai White 27:09 Oh, yeah, yeah. I used to be there.

Joe Rogan 27:11 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 27:11 I mean, yeah, man, it's... [exhales] Yeah, that, that- those were some great times. 'Cause, I mean, I connect with Benny wh- 'cause when I was in Bridgeport, my instructor, Matty Milisi, tr- we- went to California and started training with Benny-

Joe Rogan 27:25 Oh, wow

Michael Jai White 27:26 ... there early on. So he put that on the map about coming, [chuckles] you know, to the mecca-

Joe Rogan 27:30 It was the mecca

Michael Jai White 27:30 ... and training with Benny.

Joe Rogan 27:31 It was the mecca.

Michael Jai White 27:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:32 For, for kickboxing, in the, especially in the '90s, that was the mecca. You had to go to the Jet Center.

Michael Jai White 27:36 Oh, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 27:37 Everybody talked about the Jet Center.

Michael Jai White 27:38 Yeah. Yeah, man, that was... That was classic.

Joe Rogan 27:40 So we were always wondering, like, "What is the style? What's the best style?" And then the UFC came along-

Michael Jai White 27:45 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 27:45 ... and I'm like, "Oh, my God, they did it."

Michael Jai White 27:47 Mm.

Joe Rogan 27:47 "They did it. They figured it out. They put it all together." And for a while it was jujitsu, 'cause nobody understood jujitsu, and Royce Gracie was just running shit.

Michael Jai White 27:54 Well, you know, you, you know how that was kind of set up a little bit. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 27:58 It was a little set up-

Michael Jai White 27:59 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 27:59 ... but, but I mean-

Michael Jai White 28:00 Yeah

Joe Rogan 28:00 ... look, he had some challenges. Like, Ken Shamrock was a beast.

Michael Jai White 28:03 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:03 You know?

Michael Jai White 28:03 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:03 He had some really good fighters he was facing against.

Michael Jai White 28:05 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:05 Kimbo Slice. I mean, excuse me, not Kimbo Slice. Um-

Michael Jai White 28:08 Not Kimo?

Joe Rogan 28:09 Kimo, sorry.

Michael Jai White 28:10 Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:10 Kimo was fucking huge, man.

Michael Jai White 28:12 He was a big dude, but, you know, he, he didn't really... Yeah, well, they, they were-

Joe Rogan 28:15 It was a, a hundred-pound advantage.

Michael Jai White 28:17 [chuckles] Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:18 He had 100 pounds-

Michael Jai White 28:19 They were-

Joe Rogan 28:19 ... over Royce.

Michael Jai White 28:20 The Gracies were smart.

Joe Rogan 28:21 They were.

Michael Jai White 28:22 They were very smart at that time, i- knowing, you know, the, the right people to-

Joe Rogan 28:25 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 28:25 ... kind of pick at that time. 'Cause, you know, there were some, there were some killers out there.

Joe Rogan 28:30 There were some killers out there.

Michael Jai White 28:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:31 Yeah, they definitely set it up, es-

Michael Jai White 28:33 Mm

Joe Rogan 28:33 ... especially the early ones. But it's also, it's like, you know, that was a... It was good for us to see a guy like Royce, who w-

Michael Jai White 28:41 Yeah

Joe Rogan 28:41 ... wasn't jacked. He was-

Michael Jai White 28:43 Exactly, yeah

Joe Rogan 28:43 ... a slender guy-

Michael Jai White 28:44 Yeah

Joe Rogan 28:44 ... who only weighed 175 pounds-

Michael Jai White 28:46 Mm, mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 28:46 ... and he was strangling everybody-

Michael Jai White 28:47 Right

Joe Rogan 28:47 ... and arm barring everybody.

Michael Jai White 28:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:49 It was, it was wild to see-

Michael Jai White 28:50 Yeah

Joe Rogan 28:50 ... when he beat Dan Severn. Dan Severn was 260 pounds, and Royce tapped him off his back-

Michael Jai White 28:55 Exactly

Joe Rogan 28:55 ... with a triangle. Woo!

Michael Jai White 28:56 Those were... Yeah, that, man, what, what a story. Yeah, that put, that put jujitsu on the scene.

Joe Rogan 28:59 Jujitsu on the map.

Michael Jai White 29:00 On the map big time. But, you know, one, one thing that always broke my heart is people never knew about, uh, Rickson.

Joe Rogan 29:06 Right.

Michael Jai White 29:06 Oh, my God!

Joe Rogan 29:07 I know.

Michael Jai White 29:08 That dude.

Joe Rogan 29:09 Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jai White 29:10 That cat was like... I, I always considered him, like, pound for pound, the best. 'Cause he, he not- he had this, not only, you know, jujitsu skills, but just his concentration.

Joe Rogan 29:22 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 29:22 And he was almost like, you know, hypnotic.

Joe Rogan 29:26 Right.

Michael Jai White 29:27 [chuckles] You know what I mean? The w- and just no waste of energy.

Joe Rogan 29:30 None.

Michael Jai White 29:31 Just unbelievable. What a amazing person to watch. It's... You know, I would encourage anybody to pull up his, his fights.

Joe Rogan 29:37 Well, he's another great example-

Michael Jai White 29:38 Talk about David versus Goliath stuff.

Joe Rogan 29:40 Oh, yeah.

Michael Jai White 29:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:40 Another great example of cross-training, too, 'cause Rickson got really into yoga.

Michael Jai White 29:44 Mm.

Joe Rogan 29:44 And everybody's like: "What the fuck are you doing yoga?"

Michael Jai White 29:46 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:46 Like, "Yoga's for girls," right?

Michael Jai White 29:48 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 29:48 Rickson got really into yoga-

Michael Jai White 29:50 Mm

Joe Rogan 29:50 ... and got super flexible and su-

Michael Jai White 29:53 Mm.

Joe Rogan 29:53 And really good at controlling his breathing.

Michael Jai White 29:55 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:56 And, and never got tired.

Michael Jai White 29:57 Yeah, you saw him in that, in The Hulk?

Joe Rogan 29:59 ... Oh, yeah!

Michael Jai White 30:00 That, that scene with-

Joe Rogan 30:01 Yay, with Ed Norton.

Michael Jai White 30:02 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:02 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 30:02 Yeah, yeah. Man, it's something, man. That, that... Talk about a legend.

Joe Rogan 30:06 Oh, a real legend.

Michael Jai White 30:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:07 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 30:07 Yeah, man, it's-

Joe Rogan 30:08 Well, Rickson, there's a video of him, and he did this multiple times, where he would go to these gyms, and he would, um, teach a seminar, like a long seminar-

Michael Jai White 30:17 Mm

Joe Rogan 30:17 ... and then roll with all the black belts.

Michael Jai White 30:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:20 And just tap them one after the other-

Michael Jai White 30:22 Mm

Joe Rogan 30:22 ... one a- world champions.

Michael Jai White 30:24 Mm.

Joe Rogan 30:24 Guys that just didn't understand what was going on.

Michael Jai White 30:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:27 Like, how is this happening?

Michael Jai White 30:28 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:29 Like Paulo Filho, when he was a WEC world champion, and he was, uh... He had won the Mundials, I believe. He'd won multiple jujitsu championships.

Michael Jai White 30:39 Mm.

Joe Rogan 30:39 And he, he trained with Rickson, and he's like: "Man, it's true."

Michael Jai White 30:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:43 He goes: "I can't believe it." He goes, "That guy treated me like I didn't even belong in there."

Michael Jai White 30:46 Mm.

Joe Rogan 30:46 "It was crazy."

Michael Jai White 30:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:48 And, and Rickson, by that time, was probably, like, 40.

Michael Jai White 30:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:51 You know, and is still just d- dominating guys on the mat, and effortless.

Michael Jai White 30:55 Mm.

Joe Rogan 30:56 It wasn't strength. It was, it was just pure technique and movement.

Michael Jai White 30:59 Basics and just-

Joe Rogan 31:00 Yeah

Michael Jai White 31:01 ... mastering of basics.

Joe Rogan 31:02 Oh.

Michael Jai White 31:02 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:03 Basics.

Michael Jai White 31:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:04 It was like, there's none of the... No berimbolos-

Michael Jai White 31:07 Mm

Joe Rogan 31:07 ... and no X-guard, nothing cr- crazy.

Michael Jai White 31:09 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:09 Everything he did is, like, jujitsu 101-

Michael Jai White 31:12 Mm

Joe Rogan 31:12 ... but to a masterful-

Michael Jai White 31:15 Yes

Joe Rogan 31:16 ... masterful degree.

Michael Jai White 31:17 Yeah, and-

Joe Rogan 31:18 It was incredible

Michael Jai White 31:18 ... and telling people that, you know, 'cause everybody know Royce, and I'm like: "Do you [chuckles] you guys don't know who his big brother is?"

Joe Rogan 31:25 His brother.

Michael Jai White 31:26 Yeah, that's-

Joe Rogan 31:26 He would openly say-

Michael Jai White 31:27 Yeah, mm

Joe Rogan 31:27 ... "That my brother is 10 times better than me."

Michael Jai White 31:29 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:29 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 31:29 Yeah, so, you know, that's, that really put, uh... And I, and I love jujitsu because it, [exhales] it's, it's, it's held up the tradition that martial arts, so much of karate lost because it became a business.

Joe Rogan 31:42 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 31:43 And people would just, you know, put their time in and pay for their black belts.

Joe Rogan 31:47 Right.

Michael Jai White 31:48 And it just watered it down.

Joe Rogan 31:49 Right.

Michael Jai White 31:49 And you had all these people running around saying that they're master this and, you know-

Joe Rogan 31:53 Yeah

Michael Jai White 31:53 ... grand whatever, and all these made-up things. And it's like, "Oh yeah, the guy's a master in a, in a Asian martial art." That's a, that's a, that's a [chuckles] English word.

Joe Rogan 32:05 Right, right.

Michael Jai White 32:05 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 32:06 Right, right.

Michael Jai White 32:06 How did, how did master sneak its way into a-

Joe Rogan 32:10 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 32:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:10 Right.

Michael Jai White 32:10 But anyway, but, you know, uh, male ego, you know, so, I mean-

Joe Rogan 32:13 Well, the thing about martial arts, other than jujitsu, is when you're sparring, it's very controlled.

Michael Jai White 32:18 Mm.

Joe Rogan 32:18 Like, a lot of karate sparring is very controlled.

Michael Jai White 32:21 Mm.

Joe Rogan 32:21 A lot of taekwondo sparring is very controlled.

Michael Jai White 32:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:23 But in jujitsu, the beautiful thing about grappling is you know how good everybody is-

Michael Jai White 32:28 Mm

Joe Rogan 32:28 ... because they all spar.

Michael Jai White 32:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:30 They're all rolling with each other-

Michael Jai White 32:32 Mm

Joe Rogan 32:32 ... and they're essentially going full blast until the tap.

Michael Jai White 32:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:35 And so you- there's no hiding.

Michael Jai White 32:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:38 There's no hiding your skill.

Michael Jai White 32:39 Yeah, I love what, uh, Eddie Bravo used to say. Basically, when you, you won, "I killed you." [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 32:44 Yeah, yeah.

Michael Jai White 32:44 "I just killed you."

Joe Rogan 32:46 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 32:46 [chuckles] You know?

Joe Rogan 32:47 Right.

Michael Jai White 32:47 So that's like, wow, that's a, that is a trip because it's like, it actually works out that way.

Joe Rogan 32:52 Oh, yeah.

Michael Jai White 32:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:52 If he gets you in a triangle, and you tap-

Michael Jai White 32:54 Yeah

Joe Rogan 32:54 ... it's because you were about to go to sleep.

Michael Jai White 32:57 Yes.

Joe Rogan 32:57 And once you're asleep, he can just stomp your head into a pancake.

Michael Jai White 32:59 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:00 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 33:00 You're, you're done.

Joe Rogan 33:01 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 33:01 And, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 33:01 Just hold on to that triangle, and then you never wake up.

Michael Jai White 33:03 Yeah, what a humbling thing.

Joe Rogan 33:05 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 33:05 You know? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:06 Very humbling.

Michael Jai White 33:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:07 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 33:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:07 And what's really humbling is how quickly someone can do it to you when you don't know what you're doing.

Michael Jai White 33:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:12 Like, that was shocking to me, 'cause I had all this martial arts experience-

Michael Jai White 33:16 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 33:16 ... and I first started training, I was like, "Pfft-

Michael Jai White 33:18 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 33:18 ... what's someone gonna do to me? I wrestled in high school."

Michael Jai White 33:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:20 "I'm strong. I'm fast. I know how to fight."

Michael Jai White 33:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:23 I just got manhandled over and over-

Michael Jai White 33:25 Yeah

Joe Rogan 33:25 ... and over again.

Michael Jai White 33:26 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:26 I was like, "This is ridiculous."

Michael Jai White 33:28 Yeah, see, that... But kudos, because y- a lot of people, they, because of, i- if you got an egotistical thing going, and you, you know, get to your, your little, uh, I don't know, y- your, your comfort 'cause you got your black belt and all that kind of stuff-

Joe Rogan 33:43 Right

Michael Jai White 33:43 ... that means jack nothing. You know, the, to, everybody I know who continues, and really to learn, you know, real fighting-

Joe Rogan 33:50 Yeah

Michael Jai White 33:51 ... knows when you, you had a boxer beat the hell out you, and [chuckles] you go, "Oh, wait, there's a lot of this stuff I gotta toss out the window."

Joe Rogan 33:59 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 33:59 And 'cause, I mean, I n- I never forget, like, times where I, you know, like, I, I- a wrestler gets to me-

Joe Rogan 34:05 Mm

Michael Jai White 34:05 ... or a boxer, like, pieces me up, like, early on. I'm like: "No, I got to learn this."

Joe Rogan 34:11 Oh, yeah.

Michael Jai White 34:11 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:12 I went through several of those.

Michael Jai White 34:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:14 I went through one of them in high school, 'cause I have a, I had a friend in high school that was a wrestler.

Michael Jai White 34:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:19 And, uh, I didn't think anything of wrestling. I'm like: "That's not even a martial art."

Michael Jai White 34:23 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 34:23 And then we wrestled on the grass one day, and he just took me down at will.

Michael Jai White 34:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:27 I was like, "This is ridiculous."

Michael Jai White 34:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:28 Like, he was pinning me down. I couldn't, I couldn't move. I couldn't get up. I'm like, "Uh, this is stunning." [chuckles]

Michael Jai White 34:34 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:34 I thought I'm strong.

Michael Jai White 34:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:36 I thought I could move. I thought I'll be able to get out of the way. [chuckles]

Michael Jai White 34:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:40 No, not... I had no chance!

Michael Jai White 34:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:42 And he wasn't even a great wrestler. He was just a decent wrestler.

Michael Jai White 34:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:45 And he just humbled me over and over and over again. So then I started wrestling, and then when I got into taekwondo, I thought, "I'm really good at taekwondo." I was competing on a national level. I won the state championships four years in a row. I was fucking people up.

Michael Jai White 34:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:58 And then I remember the first time I boxed with a really good amateur boxer-

Michael Jai White 35:02 Mm

Joe Rogan 35:02 ... I was like: "Oh, Lord!"

Michael Jai White 35:04 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 35:05 And this kid was, like, 18 years old.

Michael Jai White 35:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:07 And, uh, I was at the gy- and he went on, this kid, his name was Dana Rosenblatt.

Michael Jai White 35:11 Mm.

Joe Rogan 35:11 He went on to become, uh, New England, uh, middleweight champion.

Michael Jai White 35:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 35:14 He beat Vinnie Pazienza.

Michael Jai White 35:16 Oh, shoot, okay.

Joe Rogan 35:17 He beat Howard Davis Jr. as a professional.

Michael Jai White 35:19 Wow.

Joe Rogan 35:19 He was a really good boxer.

Michael Jai White 35:20 Wow, yeah, he had to be.

Joe Rogan 35:22 But he was kickboxing at the time.

Michael Jai White 35:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 35:24 And I was gonna get into kickboxing.

Michael Jai White 35:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:26 And so I was sparring with him, but when I was boxing with him, I was just getting lit up.

Michael Jai White 35:30 Mm.

Joe Rogan 35:30 I was like, "Oh..." And then also, when we were kickboxing, the moment he got close to me, I was in trouble.

Michael Jai White 35:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 35:36 I was like, "Oh, no."

Michael Jai White 35:37 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 35:37 Like, taekwondo had too many flaws.

Michael Jai White 35:39 Exactly, yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:39 The hand techniques... So I had gone through that.

Michael Jai White 35:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:42 And so then I thought, "Okay, well, now I understand kickboxing." Then I met a dude who went to Thailand a bunch of times and was training Muay Thai-

Michael Jai White 35:49 Mm

Joe Rogan 35:49 ... and fighting over there, and then I started learning leg kicks. I'm like: "Well, oh, good Lord."

Michael Jai White 35:53 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 35:53 "Now all they have to do is kick my legs?"

Michael Jai White 35:55 Yeah. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 35:55 "I didn't even think of that."

Michael Jai White 35:57 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:57 But then I started r- really paying attention to-... WKA fights-

Michael Jai White 36:01 Yeah

Joe Rogan 36:01 ... like the old Dennis Alexio days-

Michael Jai White 36:03 Yep, yep, yep

Joe Rogan 36:03 ... and Don "The Dragon" Wilson.

Michael Jai White 36:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:04 And it was like, leg kicks!

Michael Jai White 36:06 Mm.

Joe Rogan 36:06 Leg kicks are everything. Oh, my goodness.

Michael Jai White 36:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:08 And then I'm like, "Okay, well, now I got a solid foundation."

Michael Jai White 36:11 Mm.

Joe Rogan 36:11 "I understand how to fight." And then I started getting into jiu-jitsu.

Michael Jai White 36:13 Jiu-jitsu. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 36:13 Like, oh, no! Back to square one.

Michael Jai White 36:16 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:16 I'm getting raped. [laughing]

Michael Jai White 36:18 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 36:18 I was just getting mauled on the mats.

Michael Jai White 36:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:21 I was like, this is te- but I'd been through that so many times and restarted so many times.

Michael Jai White 36:25 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:25 I was like, "Well, it's time to learn this now."

Michael Jai White 36:27 Yeah. That, yeah, that's, that's what I'm saying is, uh, everything has something to teach you.

Joe Rogan 36:32 Yes.

Michael Jai White 36:32 And, uh, you know, even, even though there's that... There's a martial art, there's a fantasy world, which is, I, I look at it as hilarious. You know, there, there's this, you know, uh, [exhales] I, I don't know. There's- sometimes I, I would, I would say it like this: like, with martial arts, it's the, the Dunning-Kruger effect-

Joe Rogan 36:51 Yeah, yeah

Michael Jai White 36:52 ... in the largest way possible. 'Cause everybody out there has an opinion of martial arts, though very few people really know what it is. You know, they wanna look at, you know, the movies and everything, and they really wanna believe that.

Joe Rogan 37:05 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 37:05 They wanna believe that this guy who, you know, kicks in the air and all that kind of stuff will be able to beat a, a champion. And s- in a way, hey, I benefit from that to some degree because they, you know, they, they think that about me. But, you know, I'm, even though I, I, I'm comfortable fighting and I love to... I mean, I just love, you know, fighting against anybody, uh, but-

Joe Rogan 37:29 But you've had actual competition experience, like a lot of competition experience.

Michael Jai White 37:32 Yeah, yeah, but my, my best experience is, was, is with like, I got, I got a chance to train against champions at their place-

Joe Rogan 37:41 Mm

Michael Jai White 37:42 ... you know, when they're at their best. And it's not an ego thing. It's just like, I, I love to be able to test myself, and I mean, 'cause I'm my biggest competition. And so that whole thing about, um, just what the bow means to me is like, thank you for making me better-

Joe Rogan 38:01 Right

Michael Jai White 38:02 ... by providing me an obstacle. And, and the higher the, i- you know, the better the person, the better I can become.

Joe Rogan 38:09 100%.

Michael Jai White 38:10 And so I loved it. So I, you know, for years I'm in there with Gokhan Saki, and, you know, Maurice Smiths, and, you know, [exhales] who- you know, you name it, I, I, there's... I've gotten- I, I consider myself one of the luckiest, like, martial artists in, on the planet because I get to train with so many people, sometimes, you know, at my house. And, you know-

Joe Rogan 38:33 Yeah

Michael Jai White 38:33 ... I've got all these, you know, former champions, you know, training. And, you know, Rampage, when he was champion, I'd go to his place. And, you know, and, and honestly, like, the things I brag about is when I get humbled, [chuckles] you know? 'Cause that's when I learn something. You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 38:49 For sure.

Michael Jai White 38:49 My, my philosophy is I love to be wrong, 'cause every time I'm wrong, I learn something.

Joe Rogan 38:54 Absolutely.

Michael Jai White 38:54 And so, like, some of the, the best times for me is like, I know when I was, you know, uh, Michael Bisping was getting ready for, uh, uh, to fight George St-Pierre, and we were in Thailand. I was like, "Yeah, you know, let's, let's like, like, mix it up. Let's-"

Joe Rogan 39:09 What were you doing in Thailand?

Michael Jai White 39:10 Oh, we were doing a movie out there.

Joe Rogan 39:11 Oh, wow!

Michael Jai White 39:12 But he had to train. He was getting ready, uh, for the George St-Pierre fight. And so, you know, I was like, "Yeah, let's, let's do some rounds or whatever." And I, I got so winded-

Joe Rogan 39:24 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 39:24 ... the second round. I'm like, "Dude, just whoop my ass. I, I feel so s- like, like, [exhales] I'm embarrassed. I should never-"

Joe Rogan 39:33 Bisping was a cardio machine.

Michael Jai White 39:34 Yes, he was.

Joe Rogan 39:35 He was a cardio machine.

Michael Jai White 39:36 I didn't, I didn't expect that because we were... We spent all day on a yacht the day before, and he was drinking nonstop.

Joe Rogan 39:44 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 39:45 I'm a non-drinker, right? I'm like, "This guy's gonna, you know... Yeah, I'm gonna probably take it easy on him today." [laughing] It's like, no.

Joe Rogan 39:51 He is one of the toughest motherfuckers that ever fought in the sport.

Michael Jai White 39:55 I swear.

Joe Rogan 39:56 And this is what I say about him: no matter what y- you think about watching his fights-

Michael Jai White 40:00 Mm

Joe Rogan 40:00 ... you have to understand, not only did he accomplish so much, he accomplished a lot of it with one eye.

Michael Jai White 40:07 One eye. Yes.

Joe Rogan 40:08 One fucking eye.

Michael Jai White 40:08 Yes.

Joe Rogan 40:08 He had 11 fights in the UFC with a winning record-

Michael Jai White 40:12 Mm

Joe Rogan 40:12 ... with one eye.

Michael Jai White 40:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:14 Crazy!

Michael Jai White 40:14 Yes. Yeah, that, that's... Man.

Joe Rogan 40:17 He would memorize the eye chart-

Michael Jai White 40:20 Mm

Joe Rogan 40:21 ... so that when they covered his eye, he could sight it out like he could read it.

Michael Jai White 40:26 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:27 How fucking crazy is that?

Michael Jai White 40:28 He's got a hell of a, he's got a hell of a personal story, too. I was trying to encourage him to get that, get that made. You know, like, I, honestly, man, I, I, I really, I really look at these, uh, UFC st- uh, fighters and you, you know, the MMA guys as our modern-day heroes. They're our gladiators. And so whenever I have a chance, man, I always like to put them in movies and try to expose them to another kind of way, uh, of, you know, getting paid.

Joe Rogan 40:58 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 40:58 Especially afterwards, because, like, some, uh, it breaks my heart that they're heroes and then they get discarded sometimes by... I mean, not, not by the, um, the union that they're with, but just by the fans. They're, they're so fickle sometimes.

Joe Rogan 41:12 Yes.

Michael Jai White 41:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:13 Well, the, the casuals, the people that aren't really martial artists.

Michael Jai White 41:17 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:17 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 41:17 So, you know, I, I just-

Joe Rogan 41:18 They dismiss a guy when they lose a few.

Michael Jai White 41:20 Yeah, I just did my, my third movie with, uh, with Cowboy Cerrone. You know, uh, I- we just finished a little over a week ago.

Joe Rogan 41:28 Oh, that's awesome.

Michael Jai White 41:28 Yeah, yeah, he's doing really good, man.

Joe Rogan 41:30 I love that dude.

Michael Jai White 41:30 Yeah, yeah, me too.

Joe Rogan 41:31 That's a guy that could-

Michael Jai White 41:32 Yeah

Joe Rogan 41:32 ... really legitimately transition to become a movie star.

Michael Jai White 41:34 Yes, yes, and he's got a lot more confidence. This, like I said, the third movie I did an, I did a we- he did a Western with me, uh, Outlaw Johnny Black. I, I wrote and directed it. Uh, but I had, I had, uh, Cowboy, uh, I had, uh, Randy Couture in it-

Joe Rogan 41:51 Oh, wow

Michael Jai White 41:52 ... and then Josh Barnett.

Joe Rogan 41:53 Randy's done an amazing job of transitioning.

Michael Jai White 41:55 Oh, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 41:56 The Expendables, you know-

Michael Jai White 41:57 Mm.

Joe Rogan 41:58 And he's great at it. He just-

Michael Jai White 41:59 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:00 He has a great personality.

Michael Jai White 42:01 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 42:02 Just a very, very calm... He, like, he- well, I remember one time he was fighting Tim Sylvia for the heavyweight title.

Michael Jai White 42:08 Mm.

Joe Rogan 42:08 And he came out there, and he had a smile on his face. He looked over at me, and he winked.

Michael Jai White 42:12 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 42:12 I'm like, "How is this motherfucker so relaxed-

Michael Jai White 42:15 [laughing] Yeah

Joe Rogan 42:15 ... before his fight?" But he had a, an amazing perspective. He's like-

Michael Jai White 42:19 Yeah

Joe Rogan 42:19 ... he said to me-... The people who love you will love you whether you win or lose.

Michael Jai White 42:24 Mm.

Joe Rogan 42:25 And he said, "What's the worst thing that can happen? You lose?" He goes, "You've lost before."

Michael Jai White 42:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:29 "It's no big deal."

Michael Jai White 42:30 Yeah, I remember him spanking [chuckles] Tito.

Joe Rogan 42:32 Yeah, he got on top of him, spanking him-

Michael Jai White 42:35 Yeah, man

Joe Rogan 42:35 ... when he had him down.

Michael Jai White 42:35 Yeah, man, he's-

Joe Rogan 42:35 Randy was an animal.

Michael Jai White 42:36 Yeah, well, when we- he, you know, he had that heart attack while he was shooting my movie.

Joe Rogan 42:40 That's crazy.

Michael Jai White 42:41 And then came back to set like nothing.

Joe Rogan 42:43 How did he have a fucking heart attack?

Michael Jai White 42:45 I don't, I don't remember how exact- it was... And I, I think he, he drove himself to the hospital. [laughing] Yeah, man, it's... Talk about an American hero, man. I mean, it's-

Joe Rogan 42:57 I was there for his first fight.

Michael Jai White 42:59 Really?

Joe Rogan 42:59 Yeah, 1997. Yeah, I was there for his very first fight.

Michael Jai White 43:02 Oh, shoot. Okay.

Joe Rogan 43:02 He fought this huge jacked dude, and took him down, mounted him, beat the shit out of him. It was wild.

Michael Jai White 43:07 Mm.

Joe Rogan 43:07 It was like, that was the time where wrestlers had first started cracking this code.

Michael Jai White 43:13 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:13 Right? There was this code of, there was a lot of people that thought, like, jujitsu was the only way-

Michael Jai White 43:18 Mm

Joe Rogan 43:18 ... and then the elite wrestlers got in there.

Michael Jai White 43:20 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 43:20 The Mark Kerrs-

Michael Jai White 43:21 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 43:21 ... the Mark Colemans, these... And then Randy.

Michael Jai White 43:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:24 A bunch of these guys got in there, and then-

Michael Jai White 43:26 Yeah

Joe Rogan 43:26 ... they realized, like, if a guy can just take you down and beat the fuck out of you from the top-

Michael Jai White 43:29 Mm

Joe Rogan 43:29 ... there's not a whole lot you could do about it.

Michael Jai White 43:31 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 43:31 And then we realized, like, boy, that is the corner- that's the true cornerstone of martial arts.

Michael Jai White 43:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:36 The ability to take a guy down.

Michael Jai White 43:38 My goodness. I mean, what's harder than wrestling? I don't think there's anything.

Joe Rogan 43:40 The hardest sport in the world.

Michael Jai White 43:41 Yeah, it's, yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:42 The hardest sport in the world, and the best sport in the world to get your kids into at a young age, because the discipline and the mental toughness-

Michael Jai White 43:49 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 43:49 ... that they get will carry them through for the rest of their life.

Michael Jai White 43:52 Yep, tenacity, the-

Joe Rogan 43:53 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 43:53 ... just the stick-to-it-iveness-

Joe Rogan 43:55 Oh, yeah

Michael Jai White 43:55 ... whatever you wanna call it. Yeah, that's just like, yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:58 Even high school wrestling. I remember wrestling in high school, and I had already done martial arts, but I was like, "I've never trained that hard."

Michael Jai White 44:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:04 I was like, "I can't believe..." And then it carried me-

Michael Jai White 44:06 Mm

Joe Rogan 44:06 ... over into my taekwondo career because I realized, like, "Oh, I'm leaving a lot on the table."

Michael Jai White 44:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:11 "Like, I'm not training like these guys are."

Michael Jai White 44:13 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:13 So I started running, I started adding all these things to my training that I wasn't doing before. I started doing a lot more calisthenics-

Michael Jai White 44:19 Mm

Joe Rogan 44:19 ... a lot more different things. I was like, "I'm leaving something on the table," because we were not training in the gym, and we were sparring hard-

Michael Jai White 44:25 Yeah

Joe Rogan 44:25 ... we were doing hard rounds.

Michael Jai White 44:26 Mm.

Joe Rogan 44:26 You'd get tired, but it was not the same as what we were doing in wrestling.

Michael Jai White 44:30 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:30 No one trains harder than wrestlers.

Michael Jai White 44:31 That anaerobic stuff, man.

Joe Rogan 44:32 [chuckles]

Michael Jai White 44:32 That's, that's... Man, I got, I got the wrestling bug when, um, in, when I was in my... I was a senior in high school, and, uh, the football coach was a wrestler in, in college. And he ch- he challenged me. [chuckles] He ch- uh, I think we did this two years in a row, in my junior year and my senior year. At the end of the year, we, he, we'd wrestle. We'd just go, like, you know, he and I. Yeah, I, I was, like I said, I was big for my age and whatever.

Joe Rogan 45:01 Were you playing football?

Michael Jai White 45:03 Uh, I w- I was for a very short time, but I ended up, um, I was, uh, I wasn't, I wasn't designed for s- for, um-

Joe Rogan 45:13 Powerful

Michael Jai White 45:13 ... team sports. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 45:14 Me neither!

Michael Jai White 45:15 I, I, and I ended up beating up the football coach.

Joe Rogan 45:19 Oh, no.

Michael Jai White 45:21 Yeah, I had a, I... Dude, like, I had, I had the worst temper than anybody I'd ever seen. I mean, I used to go into fits of rage. I was so angry early on, man. It's like the Hulk is like, "Mike, you should chill out a little bit, man."

Joe Rogan 45:36 [chuckles]

Michael Jai White 45:37 Like, I, I was just-

Joe Rogan 45:38 It's probably from being on your own at 14.

Michael Jai White 45:40 [chuckles] Yeah, you know, what it is, is, like, I was growing up in a very harsh environment, and I was... I didn't know I was an artist. I didn't know I was a writer, director, whatever. You know, they didn't... You didn't see those growing up where I am.

Joe Rogan 45:55 Right.

Michael Jai White 45:55 And so when you're a sensitive kid, man, what you do is you, you build armor. Like, I was to play Mike Tyson later on, and I understood him quite well. Uh, and if you're sensitive, you, you know, w- anything that's precious, you put it in a, you lock it in a safe, and you become the safe. And it's, it's like I grew up, my brothers were completely different. They're, they're engineers, so things rolled off their back. But, like, for me, just, I was just volatile. And, uh, luckily, I had martial arts to kind of foc- put my focus into. But like I said, like a, like I was to play Mike Tyson, I understood him a, a great deal. And, you know, even though you take the moniker of this monster, it's only to hide what's really deep inside. And that's why you would see, if anybody's gonna go into tears in front of a, a million people, it's people like Mike Tyson. And you go, "How does that fit in the same person?"

Joe Rogan 46:59 Right.

Michael Jai White 47:00 And so that's what I was growing up. And, you know, I don't know if you know this, but I, I was a, I was a schoolteacher before I was an actor.

Joe Rogan 47:07 Oh, really?

Michael Jai White 47:08 Yeah, I taught EMD. I was a, a special ed teacher.

Joe Rogan 47:11 Oh.

Michael Jai White 47:11 So I focused on a lot of kids who were very much like me, and I still do that. In a way, I consider that my real job. Whenever I'm off from work on a movie or whatever, I go into the inner cities, I go into community centers, I de- devote my time, 'cause there's nothing that I could do... There's no better spending of time than something like that. Because I, I was luckily, luckily saved. I had just at the right times in my life, just different seeds planted. And so I'm, I'm confident that if those seeds were not planted, I would not be here. 'Cause like I say, I was [chuckles] I've been through, uh, some, some crazy stuff.

Joe Rogan 47:52 It's a classic story.

Michael Jai White 47:53 Yeah, bro. Man, like, I tell you, like, just little under two years ago, a buddy of mine, who's a close friend of mine, um, he, he got out of prison. He was in prison for almost, like, 30 years, and he found me on Facebook. And so when I went back east, we, we linked up, and I s- uh, and, you know, I know a lot of people who has, have, I don't know, businesses and everything. I hooked him up, you know, got him a job, and we were sitting over lunch. And in the middle of him telling me, like, the third or fourth s- story, like-... back in the glory days of us or whatever. While he was in the middle of this story, I was, I was, you know, kind of getting myself set to kind of set him straight, because I don't know if you wanna call it superstitious, but I won't lie. I, I refuse to lie to my friends. I even... I won't lie by omission. Um, so I was getting set to tell him, "Dude, man, you gotta stop embellishing on these stories. Just because you were locked up and you made these stories sound bigger than, than life-

Joe Rogan 49:03 Right

Michael Jai White 49:04 ... I get it, but you're- that's not real. You gotta, you gotta really, you know, kinda not do that." And in the middle of me thinking that, and I'm listening to him, I go, "Holy shit, he's telling the truth." I started remembering what he was telling me.

Joe Rogan 49:20 Mm.

Michael Jai White 49:21 And I'm like, now I'm finishing his sentences. Not only was that story true, but the other ones were true, too. And dude, like, I swear, every time I think about this, I, I got these goosebumps, and I realize, oh, my God, how close I was to being where he was, or just not being on this planet.

Joe Rogan 49:43 Right.

Michael Jai White 49:45 Like, I better devote my time into helping kids the way I was helped.

Joe Rogan 49:52 Yeah, don't pull that ladder up.

Michael Jai White 49:54 No, no, hell no. Hell no. Even if I'm taken out, I, I accept that. Even if I'm in some projects where, where I'm not supposed to be, and I shouldn't have been, I accept that. Because, dude, I am abundantly lucky. I... Like, it's- it doesn't even, it doesn't even fit on the radar how lucky I am. And I could remember a lot of these crazy stories, uh, you know, aside from the ones that he made me conjure back up. But man, I'm like, "Wow!"

Joe Rogan 50:29 Well, that speaks to your character, that you had downplayed it all in your mind so much that you thought he was exaggerating.

Michael Jai White 50:36 I swept it under the rug.

Joe Rogan 50:37 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 50:38 I, I, you know-

Joe Rogan 50:39 'Cause you're not that person anymore.

Michael Jai White 50:40 No, no. But I mean, but there was so much... There were so many events, things that would... I just call it on, on a Wednesday, that I w- went through, that it's like, I don't know. Like, I think I wouldn't trade it because I, I continue to be the happiest guy I know because of, I think, some of that.

Joe Rogan 51:06 'Cause you can appreciate the good times now.

Michael Jai White 51:07 Oh, my God, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:09 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 51:09 And-

Joe Rogan 51:09 Yeah

Michael Jai White 51:09 ... I should be slapped if I complain about anything.

Joe Rogan 51:13 Right.

Michael Jai White 51:14 You know what I mean? Like, what? And so, you know, so I just... Boy, I, I just know I'm so blessed. And, uh, and you know what, what we do, what we're doing even right now, man, we're, we're in the service industry, man. You know, you're here to serve. In my, my opinion, that's what we're all here for. And, uh, you know, it's great that we get to serve and doing the things that we would like to do-

Joe Rogan 51:40 Definitely

Michael Jai White 51:40 ... that inspire us.

Joe Rogan 51:41 That's definitely a lot of what we do.

Michael Jai White 51:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:43 That, I mean, that's definitely a lot of it, right? You, you, you entertain, but, um, I feel very blessed that I've been able to expose people-

Michael Jai White 51:51 Mm

Joe Rogan 51:51 ... to so many different ways of thinking.

Michael Jai White 51:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:54 So much information, so many different human beings that have led completely different paths-

Michael Jai White 51:59 Right

Joe Rogan 51:59 ... that can tell you about the, whatever discipline they're involved in, what they've learned-

Michael Jai White 52:03 Yeah

Joe Rogan 52:03 ... and what we're, what we're working on right now, and what you can learn about the human mind, the body, ancient history, fill in the blank.

Michael Jai White 52:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:10 Like, whatever it is.

Michael Jai White 52:11 Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I see you do that over and over, and you [chuckles] in utmost honesty. I remember, like, when you had to kind of pull Shaub aside and tell, as a friend, some things that are hard for people to, you know, other friends to tell him, you know? And, like, that-

Joe Rogan 52:29 That was real hard.

Michael Jai White 52:30 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:30 Well, that was real hard because I love that guy.

Michael Jai White 52:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:32 He's a great, he's a great person. He's a great human being, and I knew the path. I, I'd seen it too many times.

Michael Jai White 52:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:39 But I hadn't seen it with someone I was that close with. I was like: "You have to stop, because you, not only are you in the heavyweight division-

Michael Jai White 52:46 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 52:46 ... so the knockouts are brutal, and you're gonna get three or four more in the next couple of years, and then you're not gonna recover from those."

Michael Jai White 52:53 But, man, so many people, I w- I hope they take a page out of that. Because it's so n- non-manly, I feel, to not, to just not say anything-

Joe Rogan 53:04 Right

Michael Jai White 53:04 ... and allow somebody you love to go down a road, I mean, that, that might be detrimental for them.

Joe Rogan 53:11 Well, it was also-

Michael Jai White 53:11 You know?

Joe Rogan 53:12 ... Shaub had another path. He was really good at podcasting.

Michael Jai White 53:16 Mm.

Joe Rogan 53:16 He's fun. He's a funny dude.

Michael Jai White 53:17 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:18 He's like, as a podca- he's, like, got a great personality.

Michael Jai White 53:21 Mm.

Joe Rogan 53:21 He's hilar- he's silly.

Michael Jai White 53:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:22 You know, he's a big, giant, silly dude.

Michael Jai White 53:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:25 And, like, we would have so much fun, and he was doing really well, and he was making more money doing that than he was fighting.

Michael Jai White 53:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:29 But his identity was so wrapped up in him being a top 10 UFC heavyweight.

Michael Jai White 53:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 53:34 You know, he had beat world-class guys like Mirko Cro Cop-

Michael Jai White 53:36 Oh, yes, yeah

Joe Rogan 53:37 ... you know, and he-

Michael Jai White 53:37 Yeah

Joe Rogan 53:37 ... he was legit, man.

Michael Jai White 53:39 Mm.

Joe Rogan 53:39 But though, that time had passed.

Michael Jai White 53:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:42 And, uh, I'd saw that his... He was one foot in and one foot out.

Michael Jai White 53:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:46 And as soon as a guy's one foot in and one foot out, you're gonna run into some guy who has both feet in and is a fucking samurai-

Michael Jai White 53:52 Mm

Joe Rogan 53:53 ... and then you're gonna wake up on a stretcher.

Michael Jai White 53:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:55 And you're on the way to the hospital going, "What happened?"

Michael Jai White 53:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:57 And you don't remember the fight. You don't remember nothing.

Michael Jai White 54:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:00 And then you don't know where your keys are. You forget people's names. You for- you tell the same story over and over again.

Michael Jai White 54:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:07 And then you struggle to put sentences together. When you start seeing dudes with the slurs-

Michael Jai White 54:11 Nothing's worth that, man.

Joe Rogan 54:12 Nothing's worth that.

Michael Jai White 54:13 No, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:13 'Cause you're... Y- I mean, at the time, he was only 35 years old or whatever he was.

Michael Jai White 54:17 Mm.

Joe Rogan 54:17 I'm like: "Man, you got another 45, 55 years of life."

Michael Jai White 54:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:21 "You, you can't do this."

Michael Jai White 54:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:23 "You can't, you, you can't sacrifice all these years for glory that will never be achieved anyway-

Michael Jai White 54:30 Mm

Joe Rogan 54:30 ... because you're not on that path anymore."

Michael Jai White 54:32 Yeah, and it's not about what strangers say about you.

Joe Rogan 54:35 No.

Michael Jai White 54:35 It's about your, you know, your friends, your family-

Joe Rogan 54:37 Yeah

Michael Jai White 54:37 ... people who really love you.

Joe Rogan 54:38 It's just-

Michael Jai White 54:39 Yeah

Joe Rogan 54:39 ... so hard for people to abandon that identity.

Michael Jai White 54:41 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:41 That's the hardest thing with fighters-

Michael Jai White 54:43 Yeah

Joe Rogan 54:43 ... is to abandon that identity.

Michael Jai White 54:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:46 We've seen so many guy- the, even the greats, they come back, and they shouldn't, and you see it, and you, and you see them get humiliated, and you're like, "Ugh!"

Michael Jai White 54:54 ... Yeah. Yeah, and, and when it comes down to it, these people, they don't love you, man. Like, a lot of the- uh, you know, it's-

Joe Rogan 55:02 They love you as the image.

Michael Jai White 55:04 Yeah, they live vicariously through you. I remember, I remember one time I was in, um, a fight in Boston, and I remember when something completely changed. Us- usually, if anybody w- 'cause I did any kind of thing. I would do kickboxing or this tournament. I, I, I just loved ... My, my best-- I think the, the thing I did best in the world was fighting. It w- I had this... I always had these cheat codes in a way, and I enjoyed the, the, the chess match of it.

Joe Rogan 55:35 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 55:35 And anybody who were, was against me, I don't care if you were my cousin or whatever, you're gonna pay for all the angst [chuckles] that I've, I've had in my life. But until there was this one time, I swear, I ducked a technique, I caught somebody with something that was kind of, you know, kind of cool, and I just remember the audience just cheering. And in that moment, I was, like, just angry. Kind of like: Yo, this guy could really be messed up right now. You're cheering for me. You're living vicarious through me like I'm a pit bull or something.

Joe Rogan 56:16 Right.

Michael Jai White 56:16 And I got angry at the audience. I fucking hated them.

Joe Rogan 56:20 Whoa.

Michael Jai White 56:20 And I said, " 'Cause if I was down on the ground, you'd be cheering for the person that put me down." And something just snapped, and I go, "No, this is not enough for me. This is, this is not, this is not what I wanna do."

Joe Rogan 56:37 Mm.

Michael Jai White 56:38 And, and, you know, just something snapped, and I, I'd much rather be skillful, test myself in a skillful way. Um, and I'd much rather not try to peel your head off, but show I could, as opposed to, you know, that triumph of dominating you.

Joe Rogan 57:04 Right.

Michael Jai White 57:04 It was nothing for me anymore in that. Um, you know, and just something, just something just rubbed me the wrong way, and I just... Any time I would do any kind of competition, it was for me, and it wasn't for an audience. You know, I j- just something soured.

Joe Rogan 57:23 Mm.

Michael Jai White 57:23 I, I, I always thought at one time, "I'm gonna be called out," you know? And I thought, "Oh, I'll, I'll, I'll rise to that occasion if that, that happens." And, you know, kind of like [chuckles] I remember the thing with you and Wesley.

Joe Rogan 57:36 Oh, yeah. [chuckles]

Michael Jai White 57:37 Which would've been... Oh, my God, that would've been terrible. But, um-

Joe Rogan 57:41 [laughs]

Michael Jai White 57:41 Oh, yeah, but, uh, but I always thought, "Hey, well, you know, maybe, you know, something-

Joe Rogan 57:45 I think Wesley just needed money. I mean, that was why he was grappling.

Michael Jai White 57:48 I don't, I don't, I don't think he'd ever be s- I don't think that was ever serious, but it's, it's very much like I think-

Joe Rogan 57:53 We were, we were in negotiation for quite a while, man.

Michael Jai White 57:55 Yeah, but-

Joe Rogan 57:55 We had lawyers involved.

Michael Jai White 57:57 Yeah, it's always easy to pull the plug on something like that. Just like Jean-Claude's talking about fighting, uh, Jake, Jake Paul, right? [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 58:03 Is he talking about that right he's 100 years old?

Michael Jai White 58:05 I just said, I just said, yeah. I'm like-

Joe Rogan 58:06 He weighs 50 pounds. He's 100 years old. [laughs]

Michael Jai White 58:08 I'm like, "Come on, man. Come on."

Joe Rogan 58:10 Is he really talking about fighting Jake Paul? [laughs]

Michael Jai White 58:12 Yeah, I, I, I just saw something-

Joe Rogan 58:13 Oh

Michael Jai White 58:13 ... in the last couple of days. I'm like, "Okay."

Joe Rogan 58:15 I think Wesley was serious because I think they had, um, they had hit him with that tax case, and he owed a lot of money to the government.

Michael Jai White 58:24 No, this is before that tax case.

Joe Rogan 58:25 No, no, no, it was in the middle of it.

Michael Jai White 58:26 Really?

Joe Rogan 58:27 Yeah, 100%. I know it was.

Michael Jai White 58:28 Huh?

Joe Rogan 58:29 Yeah. Yeah, it was 2000, I wanna say 5 or 6. It was in the middle of all that-

Michael Jai White 58:34 Wow

Joe Rogan 58:34 ... and he was in trouble. It was, it was serious.

Michael Jai White 58:37 Mm.

Joe Rogan 58:37 And he w- you know, obviously eventually wound up going to jail.

Michael Jai White 58:41 Yeah, yeah, I mean-

Joe Rogan 58:41 And so they were gonna set up a fight with him and Jean-Claude Van Damme. That was the first fight. But Campbell McClan-

Michael Jai White 58:47 Really? [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 58:47 Yeah, Campbell McLaren from the UFC was like: "No one gives a shit about you fighting Jean-Claude Van Damme."

Michael Jai White 58:51 Mm.

Joe Rogan 58:51 "You gotta fight someone who's current."

Michael Jai White 58:53 Mm.

Joe Rogan 58:53 And so he said: "Let me contact Joe Rogan." He called me up-

Michael Jai White 58:57 Mm

Joe Rogan 58:57 ... and he said, "Would you be willing to fight Wesley Snipes?" And I was like, "What?" [laughs] And I was like: "Come on, really?"

Michael Jai White 59:03 Mm.

Joe Rogan 59:03 And I go, "What is this?" And so I said, "Let me think about it."

Michael Jai White 59:06 Mm.

Joe Rogan 59:06 I thought about it. I called him the next day, I said, "Let's fucking do it."

Michael Jai White 59:09 Really?

Joe Rogan 59:10 Yeah. I was training with Rob Kaman i-

Michael Jai White 59:12 Mm

Joe Rogan 59:12 ... in the mornings, and then I was doing jujitsu at night. I trained twice a day for six months.

Michael Jai White 59:16 Wow. [exhales]

Joe Rogan 59:17 I was always tired.

Michael Jai White 59:18 Mm.

Joe Rogan 59:18 I was always tired. [chuckles] That's one thing that I realized, like, fuck, man, to be like... And I wasn't even a professional, really-

Michael Jai White 59:24 Yeah

Joe Rogan 59:24 ... but I was training like a professional. I was like: I can't believe how tired I am all the time.

Michael Jai White 59:28 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 59:29 Um, but y- you know, I think Wesley had never really had a fight. I don't think so. I think he... He was a, he was an accomplished martial artist. He had good technique.

Michael Jai White 59:38 I, I trained with Wesley's instructors. Um, you know, Marcus Salgado, who's a good friend of mine, and, um, and also, uh, uh, Lamar Thornton, who was-

Joe Rogan 59:47 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 59:48 ... Marcus Salgado's instructor. That's, I believe, the... That's the only, that's the, the, the lineage I, I believe that he- he's through. But I mean, I've never... I've known Wesley since [exhales] way before he was kind of Wesley.

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 Well, I was a giant fan of Wesley, too-

Michael Jai White 1:00:03 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 ... which was also wild for me-

Michael Jai White 1:00:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 ... 'cause I love Blade.

Michael Jai White 1:00:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 Blade was, like, my favorite comic book when I was a kid.

Michael Jai White 1:00:08 Yeah, w- yeah. I just didn't... I didn't think they were serious about... I didn't, I c- I couldn't imagine why would Wesley... I thought, I always thought it was not real.

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 I think Wesley thought that I was just a grappler, and think he knew that I was doing jujitsu. I don't think he knew my background.

Michael Jai White 1:00:26 Oh, mm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 And so, like, w- they were... Wesley was talking to them, saying, "Oh, he, he thinks he's gonna be able to stop you from taking him down, and he's gonna catch you with a knee while you're coming in to try to take him down."

Michael Jai White 1:00:35 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:36 Like, I go, "Oh, he wants to stand up?"

Michael Jai White 1:00:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:38 I go, "I'm way better at that." [laughs]

Michael Jai White 1:00:41 [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, I was, I was wondering how that even occurred. I, I didn't think that was serious. I, I was like, "Okay."

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 It was serious. Yeah, it was serious.

Michael Jai White 1:00:49 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:49 It, the, it went on for a long time.

Michael Jai White 1:00:52 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 It was a lot of negotiation, to the point where I even talked about it on the UFC broadcast once.

Michael Jai White 1:00:58 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 I said, "Come on, Wesley, sign the contract. I'm getting bored training."

Michael Jai White 1:01:02 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:02 "Let's do this."

Michael Jai White 1:01:03 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 Like, "I have to do it now." I was, like, 35 or 36. I was like, "I don't have much time left."

Michael Jai White 1:01:08 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 "If we're gonna do this, we have to do this now. Like, come on."... Let's go!

Michael Jai White 1:01:11 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 And then he decided not to-

Michael Jai White 1:01:13 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 ... and then I'm like, "That's probably for the better."

Michael Jai White 1:01:15 Yeah, I, I knew Wesley for a whi- while. I remember, uh, when he was first telling me about the sovereign, being sovereign.

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 Yeah, that's where they got him-

Michael Jai White 1:01:23 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:01:23 ... with that sovereign citizen shit.

Michael Jai White 1:01:25 Yeah, and I was like, "I, I'm, I'm-"

Joe Rogan 1:01:28 I wish I was friends with him.

Michael Jai White 1:01:29 I-

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 I would've said, "Dude-

Michael Jai White 1:01:30 I'm, dude, I was-

Joe Rogan 1:01:30 "... they're gonna lock you up."

Michael Jai White 1:01:32 I was... I'm super protective of my friends. I've always been that way, and with Wesley, I was always... Like, my thing is, he used to have people around him that I'm like, you know... We, we, we have like little get-togethers at my house or whatever, I'm like, "Don't bring any of those motherfuckers." [laughing] "Or it's gonna be a problem." You know, 'cause there's, there's people that just I felt like were hangers on, and-

Joe Rogan 1:01:54 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 1:01:54 ... you know, that kind of a thing. And I was always like, "Hey man, you, are you good? And, you know, are you, um, staying healthy?" That m- I'm, I've always been that way. 'Cause the way I look at it, he's a, he's a big brother. If not for him, it w- may not be for me, you know? He gave me some good advice early on. He always encouraged me that if I'm doing-- if I have a movie that's overseas, "Get there," you know? "Show up in, in those overseas markets and let them know that you're, you're down," you know? And, um, I took that to heart, and, and, and that helped me out in my career a great deal. And so I, you know, I look at it like that, and I've never... I'll never say anything derogatory about him or whatever. So I mean, I'm always... I mean, I just recently tried to, uh, reach out to him, like, [chuckles] a couple days ago just to check in, man, 'cause I, I, you know, I, I, I wish him the best and, and you know, I want to, I want him to, like, really, you know, start kicking ass again.

Joe Rogan 1:02:46 I would love to see him return as Blade.

Michael Jai White 1:02:48 Yeah, that would be cool. That would be cool.

Joe Rogan 1:02:50 He could do it, too.

Michael Jai White 1:02:51 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:52 An older Blade-

Michael Jai White 1:02:53 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:02:53 ... he could do it.

Michael Jai White 1:02:54 Yeah. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 Fuck, he was good in the original Blade.

Michael Jai White 1:02:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 That's, that opening scene, that was one of the best scenes in any action movie-

Michael Jai White 1:03:02 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:03:02 ... of all time, when it's that vampire party-

Michael Jai White 1:03:04 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:03:05 ... and the, the, the, the sprinklers start spraying blood-

Michael Jai White 1:03:07 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 ... and they're about to kill that dude.

Michael Jai White 1:03:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 And all of a sudden, Wesley shows up.

Michael Jai White 1:03:11 Yeah, man, it's... What, what really gets on my nerves is that, you know, he saved Marvel, man.

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:03:17 That movie saved Marvel.

Joe Rogan 1:03:19 Oh, yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:03:19 You know that, right?

Joe Rogan 1:03:19 Oh, yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:03:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:20 That movie was a huge hit.

Michael Jai White 1:03:21 Yeah, e- even Stan Lee admits that.

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 Mm.

Michael Jai White 1:03:23 They were, like, in trouble until that movie.

Joe Rogan 1:03:25 Isn't that crazy?

Michael Jai White 1:03:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:26 'Cause superhero movies are the biggest fucking movies in Hollywood right now.

Michael Jai White 1:03:30 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:31 I mean, when they have a big budget movie, superhero movies are, like, the only movie that you can throw hundreds of millions of dollars and be sure-

Michael Jai White 1:03:39 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 ... it's gonna kill it in the box office.

Michael Jai White 1:03:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:41 Whether it's the Avengers or Spider-Man or Superman or whoever the fuck it is, that's the only kind of movie that Hollywood's like, "Yeah, okay."

Michael Jai White 1:03:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:49 "We'll throw 500 million at this one."

Michael Jai White 1:03:51 Yeah, and, you know, it's, it's... I'm not a big fan of those things. I, I, I, I know it's not m- they, they didn't design it for people like me. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:04:00 So it's made... It's for the fan base, and to me, it's like, ugh, you know, I... They, they s- they tend to meld into each other, as far as I'm concerned.

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 They do.

Michael Jai White 1:04:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 They do.

Michael Jai White 1:04:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 There's only so many times you can tell the stories.

Michael Jai White 1:04:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:14 There's only so m- you know.

Michael Jai White 1:04:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:16 But I, I still enjoy them.

Michael Jai White 1:04:17 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:18 I still enjoy some of them.

Michael Jai White 1:04:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:19 They're fun.

Michael Jai White 1:04:20 Yeah, I, I, I, I like when people are believable.

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:04:24 Believable. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 Yeah, there's nothing believable about those movies. [chuckles]

Michael Jai White 1:04:26 Yeah, you know, I like the actors that are like, you know, have some quirkiness and some, some, you know, edge to them, right?

Joe Rogan 1:04:33 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:04:33 So yeah, yeah. Um, uh, you know, maybe I'm being unfair, 'cause I haven't really hadn't seen a lot. Maybe I ow- owe it to myself-

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 Nah

Michael Jai White 1:04:40 ... to give some of... [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 Nah, I think you, you got it.

Michael Jai White 1:04:43 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 They're- it's simple entertainment.

Michael Jai White 1:04:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 It's a silly release, an escape.

Michael Jai White 1:04:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:48 That's all it is. It's not a great... There's no great films that are superhero films.

Michael Jai White 1:04:52 Right, yeah, 'cause sometimes I'm like, "Oh yeah, she's 90 pounds, and she just threw a gu- " Okay, wait.

Joe Rogan 1:04:56 Yeah. [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:04:56 Let me... [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:04:59 Like Charlie's Angels or something.

Michael Jai White 1:05:00 Yeah, I'm like, "Oh, come on now."

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 Kicking ass in stilettos. [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:05:02 And it's like, anytime somebody lands in a three-point stance and then looks up, I'm like... I, I just change the channel.

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:05:08 I'm just like, "Stop. Just stop."

Joe Rogan 1:05:10 Yeah. [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:05:12 [chuckles] But you know, when people love those things, I'm like, "That's cool."

Joe Rogan 1:05:16 I don't know why-

Michael Jai White 1:05:17 "That's cool"

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 ... they have so much appeal, especially in the American market.

Michael Jai White 1:05:20 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:20 People... That is one of the only movies that you can make that's guaranteed to be huge.

Michael Jai White 1:05:26 Yeah, it's, it's McDonald's, man.

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:05:28 It's McDonald's, but-

Joe Rogan 1:05:29 Right

Michael Jai White 1:05:29 ... I re- I, I remember when-

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 That's it.

Michael Jai White 1:05:31 Yeah, I remember when they, you know, you had, uh, what was that? Like, uh, the 300.

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:05:36 You know, that was like, nobody, nobody knew anybody.

Joe Rogan 1:05:39 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:05:39 But that was just such a breath of fresh air, 'cause it looked like some badasses that were real.

Joe Rogan 1:05:45 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:05:45 You know what I mean? I'd like to see more of that kind of a thing.

Joe Rogan 1:05:48 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:05:48 Like, you know, not the stype- star power thing, but just some motherfuckers that you believe.

Joe Rogan 1:05:52 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:05:53 You know what I mean? That, that would... You know, that would attract me.

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 Also, the style of that movie was so unique-

Michael Jai White 1:05:58 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 ... 'cause it blended fantasy with reality.

Michael Jai White 1:06:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:06:01 It blended, like, comic book-

Michael Jai White 1:06:02 And history, too.

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:06:04 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:04 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:06:05 Yeah, l- you know, knock on wood, I got some, some things in, in, in the works.

Joe Rogan 1:06:09 Do you?

Michael Jai White 1:06:09 Yeah, I got some-

Joe Rogan 1:06:10 What are you working on?

Michael Jai White 1:06:10 Oh, man, I, I'm, I've been blessed, man. I've got some really good movies coming out, and some things that I'm planning on doing. I'm really, I'm getting to a place where I'm really shooting the things that I want, and I'm, been producing and all that stuff, so, you know? So I, you know, I have movies that have their, have their body count, but also have a little bit of, like, something to say.

Joe Rogan 1:06:31 You know what I miss?

Michael Jai White 1:06:32 What's that?

Joe Rogan 1:06:33 Spawn.

Michael Jai White 1:06:33 [chuckles] Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 Bro!

Michael Jai White 1:06:35 Yeah, a lot of people... Yeah, a lot-

Joe Rogan 1:06:36 People forgot about Spawn. You don't hear about it anymore.

Michael Jai White 1:06:39 Right, yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 1:06:41 That was fucking great.

Michael Jai White 1:06:43 Yeah, I had my... Yeah, I... Man, y- you didn't s- most people didn't see the first adaptation of it, the first, uh, s- uh... Well, I saw a cut of the movie before it... I mean, at the, at this time, it had, like, 71 special effects in it. But Bob Shaye, at the time, that was running New Line, liked the, that version. He just gave the director, Carl Rinsch, to, to just-... add whatever he wanted. And the director was a special effects guy, so he started throwing special effects in there that was really killing the story, which kinda drove me up a, up a wall, 'cause then, like, you didn't even see why my character wanted to get back. You didn't even see the, the life that I wanted to get back to, because there was so much special effects. And even when I saw the final version, I'm like, "What the hell is going on?" People that knew Spawn, they were fine with it 'cause they understood the character. But for me, it was like the story got all convoluted. But like, you know, but I mean, people love it. It was a- I think it was a thing for its time, but, uh, unfortunately, I saw a version of it that made you care about it.

Joe Rogan 1:08:02 I understand-

Michael Jai White 1:08:03 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:08:03 ... but I cared about the one that I saw.

Michael Jai White 1:08:05 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:05 And I felt like I don't understand how Spawn sort of escaped the zeitgeist.

Michael Jai White 1:08:11 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 You don't ever hear about Spawn anymore. You know what I mean?

Michael Jai White 1:08:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:14 Like, there's all these superhero films, all these different things, but Spawn was unique, and it was really good and dark, and-

Michael Jai White 1:08:21 Yeah. I've- I always said if they did another one, should do it just like the comic book.

Joe Rogan 1:08:26 Mm.

Michael Jai White 1:08:26 Make it hard R or,

Joe Rogan 1:08:28 Mm

Michael Jai White 1:08:29 ... or non-rated-

Joe Rogan 1:08:30 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 1:08:30 ... because, I mean, like, to do a Spawn PG, like, how, how we did B- PG-13-

Joe Rogan 1:08:36 Yeah

Michael Jai White 1:08:36 ... it's like, what do you want? You trying to go for a breakfast cereal, like Spawn O's or something? [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:08:41 Like, like, come on, man, let's go hard like the cartoon, right?

Joe Rogan 1:08:44 See, see if we can find a clip from Spawn, 'cause it's... I, I feel like no one talks about it anymore.

Michael Jai White 1:08:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:50 It's kinda weird.

Michael Jai White 1:08:51 They damn sure talk to me about it. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:08:53 Bro, it was good.

Speaker 1:08:56 [tense music]

Joe Rogan 1:08:57 What year was this?

Michael Jai White 1:08:58 '97.

Joe Rogan 1:08:59 Wow!

Michael Jai White 1:09:00 Yeah.

Speaker 1:09:01 Hello, ladies and girly men.

Joe Rogan 1:09:02 They were fucking great, man.

Speaker 1:09:05 Now, stay sharp. The night is young. [laughing]

Speaker 1:09:09 [tense music] Evil has a new enemy, justice has a new weapon, and the world has a new hero.

Speaker 1:09:20 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:09:22 [laughing] The memories.

Joe Rogan 1:09:26 Bro, that was a fucking great movie, man. New Line Cinema presents.

Michael Jai White 1:09:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:31 That was a great movie. How many did you guys do?

Michael Jai White 1:09:33 One.

Joe Rogan 1:09:34 Just one?

Michael Jai White 1:09:34 Just one.

Joe Rogan 1:09:35 There was nothing else? Wasn't there something else, like a series?

Michael Jai White 1:09:37 There was, there was a cartoon first.

Joe Rogan 1:09:38 That's right.

Michael Jai White 1:09:39 Yeah, it was a... Well, it was a comic book, then it was a cartoon on, uh, HBO.

Joe Rogan 1:09:43 Oh, that's right.

Michael Jai White 1:09:43 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:44 That's what it was.

Michael Jai White 1:09:44 Uh, yeah, uh, D- uh, Keith David was the, the voice of Spawn on that one.

Joe Rogan 1:09:50 Oh.

Michael Jai White 1:09:50 Yeah. Yeah. Yep, and so yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:54 But that was a big hit.

Michael Jai White 1:09:56 I think so. Uh, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:09:59 Yeah, it was successful

Michael Jai White 1:09:59 ... it made its money back. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:01 I mean-

Michael Jai White 1:10:01 But-

Joe Rogan 1:10:02 ... I remember it was very popular. Like, everyone-

Michael Jai White 1:10:04 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:10:04 ... was talking about it. People got excited about it-

Michael Jai White 1:10:06 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:10:06 ... especially people like me that liked the comic books.

Michael Jai White 1:10:09 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:10:09 They were very into it.

Michael Jai White 1:10:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:11 I was always surprised... But it just, it's weird to me that that, that even the comic book Spawn doesn't get brought up anymore.

Michael Jai White 1:10:18 Right. Yeah, I... Every now and then, like, when, like, I'm off doing a movie, whatever, I drive by a comic book stores. I, I, I go in, and I just start signing shit, right? The Spawn stuff. So there's still stuff there.

Joe Rogan 1:10:28 Oh, yeah-

Michael Jai White 1:10:29 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:10:29 ... there's always gonna be a hardcore fan base.

Michael Jai White 1:10:30 Yeah, yeah. So I mean, you know, there's people, yeah, like, they're still hardcore about that. And then, uh, um, Todd McFarlane has always [chuckles] talked about doing another Spawn for the last 25 years.

Joe Rogan 1:10:44 It would be huge.

Michael Jai White 1:10:46 But the thing, the weird thing is, it's like, okay, I, I wish you all the best of luck, bro, but he- you created the comic book. When he's talking about doing another Spawn, I'm like, "You haven't done a first one."

Joe Rogan 1:10:59 Like the comic book.

Michael Jai White 1:11:00 No, he's, he's not a director. Like, he's... It's just like Stan Lee hasn't directed a Marvel movie.

Joe Rogan 1:11:07 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:11:08 And, and Todd McFarlane is talking about doing another Spawn, but I'm like, well, that'll be the first time a person that created a comic book directed and produced a movie that I know of, right? 'Cause even though he talks about he's going to do one, and he had this, uh, concept that he talk, talked to me about, and then he said he wanted to... You know, I guess he wanted to use Jamie Foxx. And he talked about this concept that Spawn would be... You wouldn't see him, and it's like, like Jaws. He, he would never be around, but just people would get fucked up. All of a sudden, they're, you know, like a mist would come in, they're- people are destroyed. I'm like, "Good luck with that." [laughing] You know, I don't know, but, but, but he's been talking about it for a while, and people say, "Oh, man, you know, I, I'm, I'm, I'm sad that you're not the next Spawn, w- that they're u- using Jamie." I'm like, "When is it going to happen?" They've been s- he's been saying that for a long time, but I'm going, "Hey, maybe somebody is gonna give him that amount of money to do a movie when he's never directed anything before."

Joe Rogan 1:12:15 Right. Right.

Michael Jai White 1:12:17 He hasn't directed anything before. He visited set a few times because he created a comic book. Directing a movie is something completely different, [chuckles] you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 1:12:29 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:12:29 So I'm like, all power to you if that's happening, but it's like, I, I, I wonder why people believe it.

Joe Rogan 1:12:38 Hmm. That... Yeah, that's a lot to bite off, to do, to- especially a movie like that, which would probably be a large budget.

Michael Jai White 1:12:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:45 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:12:46 Yeah. But, uh, you know, but it's-

Joe Rogan 1:12:48 And then you're gonna get the executives involved, and they're gonna fuck with it 'cause they always have to have their say.

Michael Jai White 1:12:53 Yeah, man, it's a m- it's a miracle that a movie gets done the way it's intended, period.

Joe Rogan 1:13:00 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:13:01 I'm like, a lot of times when a movie works, I go, "How did some executive not fuck this movie up?"

Joe Rogan 1:13:06 Right. [laughing] Right.

Michael Jai White 1:13:07 [chuckles] I mean, I'm, I'm always like that.

Joe Rogan 1:13:08 There's only a few guys that can get away with a movie-

Michael Jai White 1:13:11 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:13:11 ... where everybody just leaves them alone.

Michael Jai White 1:13:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:13 There's a few Tarantinos out there-

Michael Jai White 1:13:15 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:13:15 ... where everybody just, "Let him go. Just let him go."

Michael Jai White 1:13:17 Yep. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:17 If you tried to make Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and you weren't-

Michael Jai White 1:13:20 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:13:20 ... a successful director-

Michael Jai White 1:13:21 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:13:22 ... you were just some guy with an idea, someone would come along-

Michael Jai White 1:13:24 Oh

Joe Rogan 1:13:24 ... and fuck that up.

Michael Jai White 1:13:24 Oh, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:13:26 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:13:26 Absolutely. And lu- luckily, um, people are leaving me al- alone. I've been, I've been directing and, you know, doing my own thing. They go, "Okay, you got this. Okay," like I say, "I'll give you the body count, but now if I could put stuff in it," you know?

Joe Rogan 1:13:38 What is going on with Jamie Foxx doing Tyson?... 'cause that's been rumored for a decade at least.

Michael Jai White 1:13:43 That's, yeah, that's another thing. It's, like, weird that Jamie Foxx wants to do a Tyson and a Spawn, [chuckles] but it's like, I don't, I'm- I don't take it personally. A very talented guy. But yeah, I think Jamie does a very good impression of Mike Tyson.

Joe Rogan 1:13:58 Yeah-

Michael Jai White 1:13:59 Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:13:59 but he's gotta gain, like, 100 pounds.

Michael Jai White 1:14:01 Right, and then, then Jamie-

Joe Rogan 1:14:02 ... Jamie's gotta get- he's gotta pack on that meat at 50.

Michael Jai White 1:14:05 But then why?

Joe Rogan 1:14:07 You know?

Michael Jai White 1:14:07 I just, I just sit there and I go, "Why?" When Tyson's life itself has been very, you know, transparent.

Joe Rogan 1:14:15 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:14:16 And so you can see the real guy in, in, in, in documentary form and everything else.

Joe Rogan 1:14:21 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:14:22 What story do you have to tell?

Joe Rogan 1:14:25 That's true.

Michael Jai White 1:14:25 I'm not trying to-

Joe Rogan 1:14:26 Yeah

Michael Jai White 1:14:26 ... be a hater, but I'm like, I just, I'm, I'm just curious. I'm like, "What do you do?"

Joe Rogan 1:14:28 The only thing that would be interesting is seeing, like, Jamie do it, seeing him pull... Like, he pulled off Ray Charles.

Michael Jai White 1:14:34 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:14:34 Like, seeing him pull it off, that would, that would be the appeal of it, I think.

Michael Jai White 1:14:39 Right, but yeah, I, I'm... In my personal opinion, I don't think that's enough.

Joe Rogan 1:14:42 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:14:43 You gotta tell a story.

Joe Rogan 1:14:43 Right, I know what you're saying.

Michael Jai White 1:14:44 Yeah, you gotta, you gotta... It's gotta be some compelling story. Uh, I mean, hell, I mean, people saw Titanic. You know how it's gonna end-

Joe Rogan 1:14:51 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 1:14:51 ... but you had to c- he had to present a story-

Joe Rogan 1:14:54 Right

Michael Jai White 1:14:55 ... there, you know? But-

Joe Rogan 1:14:56 Well, Jamie is so versatile.

Michael Jai White 1:14:58 He is.

Joe Rogan 1:14:58 You know, I mean, there's very few guys that can do all the different things that he can do. He can sing, he can act, he can do stand-up-

Michael Jai White 1:15:06 Mm, mm

Joe Rogan 1:15:07 ... and, and he can do all kinds of different characters. And I mean, and he's so believable in so many different roles. And you know what I watched the other day, which is a fucking great movie that I forgot was so great, is Collateral.

Michael Jai White 1:15:19 Oh, hell yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:20 Oh, my God!

Michael Jai White 1:15:20 No, no, w- when Jamie had Collateral and Ray-

Joe Rogan 1:15:24 Yes

Michael Jai White 1:15:24 ... to me, like, that was... You, you couldn't have had a better year.

Joe Rogan 1:15:27 Right, two completely different human beings.

Michael Jai White 1:15:29 Oh, my God, yes. Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:15:32 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:15:32 Absolutely. You know, so I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:15:33 And he became those people. He became Ray Charles.

Michael Jai White 1:15:37 Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:15:38 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:15:38 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:39 And as good as he can sing, him singing as Ray Charles was insane.

Michael Jai White 1:15:43 It's one of the best, I mean, performances ever-

Joe Rogan 1:15:46 Ever

Michael Jai White 1:15:46 ... you know?

Joe Rogan 1:15:47 Ever.

Michael Jai White 1:15:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:47 But so is Collateral.

Michael Jai White 1:15:49 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:15:49 He, he really played that dude in Collateral. You believed it, and fucking Tom Cruise!

Michael Jai White 1:15:55 Tom Cruise.

Joe Rogan 1:15:55 Oh, my God.

Michael Jai White 1:15:57 The... Tom Cruise really proved something to me in that damn movie, 'cause I never been think- I would never think I would ever be scared of Tom freaking Cruise-

Joe Rogan 1:16:04 Right

Michael Jai White 1:16:05 ... and how convincing he was.

Joe Rogan 1:16:08 He's a bad motherfucker.

Michael Jai White 1:16:09 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:16:09 He is a bad... He's crazy as batshit-

Michael Jai White 1:16:12 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:16:12 ... but he's a bad motherfucker.

Michael Jai White 1:16:14 He, he brought it-

Joe Rogan 1:16:15 You have to be-

Michael Jai White 1:16:15 ... in that movie

Joe Rogan 1:16:15 ... you have to be that crazy to do all the stunts that that guy does. I mean-

Michael Jai White 1:16:18 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:16:18 ... he's 60 years old, he's jumping off buildings and shit-

Michael Jai White 1:16:20 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:16:20 ... and breaking his ankle.

Michael Jai White 1:16:21 Yeah, just like-

Joe Rogan 1:16:22 He's an animal

Michael Jai White 1:16:22 ... it's like Johnny Depp. Like, I'm like, Johnny Depp when he, he did, uh, Black Mass.

Joe Rogan 1:16:27 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:16:28 Like, like I'm like, "Oh-

Joe Rogan 1:16:28 Yeah

Michael Jai White 1:16:29 ... you had that in you?"

Joe Rogan 1:16:29 Right, right, right.

Michael Jai White 1:16:30 Holy shit!

Joe Rogan 1:16:31 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:16:31 And just like with Tom Cruise, I'm like, him having that character in him?

Joe Rogan 1:16:35 There's a scene in Collateral the tactical instructors play.

Michael Jai White 1:16:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:16:40 The scene when they're-

Michael Jai White 1:16:40 The double tap, like-

Joe Rogan 1:16:41 Yes

Michael Jai White 1:16:42 ... he, he whips it back. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:16:43 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:16:43 Double tap, double tap.

Joe Rogan 1:16:44 He knocks the guy's gun-

Michael Jai White 1:16:45 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:16:45 ... out of the way-

Michael Jai White 1:16:46 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:16:46 ... pulls it out. Ta-ta, ta, ta-ta, ta.

Michael Jai White 1:16:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:48 And it's so fast-

Michael Jai White 1:16:49 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:16:49 ... and it's so smo- So you need to find that scene, Jamie. It's a scene where they're trying to take Tom Cruise's briefcase-

Michael Jai White 1:16:55 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:16:55 ... and he's in, uh, an alleyway.

Michael Jai White 1:16:57 Yep, it-

Joe Rogan 1:16:58 Ooh!

Michael Jai White 1:16:59 Yeah, that... I played that over and over myself.

Joe Rogan 1:17:01 The amount of times that he must have drilled that-

Michael Jai White 1:17:05 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:17:05 ... to get that, unholster the gun-

Michael Jai White 1:17:08 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:17:08 ... pull it out, shoot him, shoot the other dude so smooth-

Michael Jai White 1:17:11 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:17:11 ... and the way he did it, so professional.

Michael Jai White 1:17:13 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:13 I mean, he looks like a legit hitman.

Michael Jai White 1:17:16 Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, that, that, that was [chuckles] that, that, that character, I mean, from start-

Joe Rogan 1:17:23 Terrifying

Michael Jai White 1:17:24 ... to finish, like, to me, proved a lot.

Joe Rogan 1:17:27 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:17:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:27 I mean, he embodied that guy.

Michael Jai White 1:17:30 And, and you know what it is-

Speaker 1:17:35 Is that my briefcase?

Speaker 1:17:36 It's your briefcase? Yeah, it is. Why, you want it back?

Speaker 1:17:40 How about your wallet?

Speaker 1:17:44 What else you got for me, huh? [gunshots]

Joe Rogan 1:17:49 Ooh.

Michael Jai White 1:17:50 Come on, son. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:17:58 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:17:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:01 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:18:01 I actually visited that set when they were shooting-

Joe Rogan 1:18:03 Ooh

Michael Jai White 1:18:03 ... that. No, not, not that scene, but it was another, it was another, um, uh, day, and it was... I remember it was weird because they were shooting something, and they were shooting Tom, behind Tom Cruise's head, and they had eight camera angles just behind his head. I'm like... And I'm looking at the, the, you know, the video village, where they made sure they had any- they had a choice of whatever perfect thing that they want. They... It was the craziest thing. I'm like... And I guess Michael Mann, he's known for, like, shooting a lot, but it was, like, eight cameras that was just behind the dude.

Joe Rogan 1:18:49 That's crazy.

Michael Jai White 1:18:50 Yeah. I'm like, "Oh, this is a whole another, like, level." Yeah, it was crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:18:55 It's a great fucking movie.

Michael Jai White 1:18:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:56 That movie holds up.

Michael Jai White 1:18:58 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:00 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:19:00 Yeah, that, that's prime Jamie, man.

Joe Rogan 1:19:02 Yep.

Michael Jai White 1:19:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:03 Yep.

Michael Jai White 1:19:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:03 And the, the, the fact that he's got that much range-

Michael Jai White 1:19:06 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:19:06 ... that he can do this nerdy dude who's terrified, doesn't know what the fuck is going on.

Michael Jai White 1:19:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:19:10 He's just driving a car, and all of a sudden he has this hitman with him, and then he gets wrapped up in this whole thing.

Michael Jai White 1:19:15 Yeah, but as a fan, I'm- I wanna see him do something else like that.

Joe Rogan 1:19:19 Right. Right.

Michael Jai White 1:19:20 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 1:19:20 Right, right.

Michael Jai White 1:19:20 Like, something like that requires what he can do.

Joe Rogan 1:19:24 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:19:24 And there's not a... You know, that's one of the things, there's a lot- not a lot of things out there sometimes, you know? So, you know, he's been doing things that I, I think show, you know, certain parts, but, like, to where he was going in Collateral and, and Ray, you know, it'd be nice to see that stuff again.

Joe Rogan 1:19:43 It's gotta be hard to find those roles, right? And when you find those roles, there's probably, like, a-... six or seven A-list dudes that they have, like, on a, a board somewhere, and they're trying to figure out who's the guy for this-

Michael Jai White 1:19:57 Yeah, but I believe-

Joe Rogan 1:19:58 Who's gonna sell the most.

Michael Jai White 1:19:59 I believe you gotta create your own stuff, man. Like, uh, put it this way: nobody was gonna write Black Dynamite for me.

Joe Rogan 1:20:05 Right, right, right.

Michael Jai White 1:20:06 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 1:20:07 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:20:07 I had to... You know, my thing is largely creating my own lane.

Joe Rogan 1:20:10 That was a fun movie, by the way.

Michael Jai White 1:20:11 Well, thanks, man. Thanks.

Joe Rogan 1:20:12 Really fun.

Michael Jai White 1:20:13 Thanks, man. So yeah, man, so [exhales] I, I- luckily, like, I, I enjoyed writing. I've w- I was always looked at everything from a... I was always fascinated about this industry, and, uh, I sold a lot of things as a writer, separate from the acting thing. And so, you know, just putting it all together is something that's, like, I really enjoy doing.

Joe Rogan 1:20:36 How do you dedicate your time when you're writing? Do you, do, do you just, like, have an idea and say, "Okay, for the next X weeks, I'm gonna sit down and dedicate myself to this?"

Michael Jai White 1:20:43 Dude, it's all different. A lot of times, I will see the entire movie.

Joe Rogan 1:20:47 Wow.

Michael Jai White 1:20:47 Like, when I did Black Dynamite, dude, I was, I was in China getting- going to set, and I was in, uh, in Shanghai. And I was listening to James Brown's Super Bad, and I just started thinking about... I'm goof- I'm laughing. I'm in the back of this car, and there's a driver wondering what the hell is going on with me. I'm seeing the whole goddamn movie, i- including a nunchuck fight scene with, with Richard Nixon. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:21:18 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:21:18 And, and, and I'm la- I'm laughing, and, you know, I started jotting stuff down because I was... It occurred to me, man, like, I just, like... I remember one day, I was thinking, like, wow, man, like, growing up, we had Shaft, and we had, we had, uh, Super Fly, and The Mack, and, and all that, posters like that, that we idolized.

Joe Rogan 1:21:39 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:21:39 And I'm going, "Those were pimps. There was something wrong with my childhood. Why am I..." [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:21:46 [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:21:47 I'm like, "What? The Mack?"

Joe Rogan 1:21:49 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:21:49 "Like, that's a hero?"

Joe Rogan 1:21:50 Mm.

Michael Jai White 1:21:51 And so it made me really think about it, and I'm like... Then I'm looking at these movies and, like, Jim, Jim Brown and Fred Williamson are, like, killing, like, 60 people, and it's okay. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:22:02 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:22:02 Everybody's like this... They have a club, and then they got all these women, and all this... And I'm like, this is actually hilarious, so I do a movie that depicted it exactly like it is. Thinking about this, one of the bi- biggest movies of that time was Three the Hard Way. I don't know if you remember that movie. Jim Brown, Fred Williamson, and Jim Kelly.

Joe Rogan 1:22:23 Oh, yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:22:25 Now-

Joe Rogan 1:22:25 I forgot about Jim Kelly

Michael Jai White 1:22:26 ... Three the Hard Way, what was it about? It had the three predominant blaxploitation stars, right? And the movie was about an evil Dr. Feather, who had these liters of liquid that he was gonna put in the water systems of LA, Chicago, and New York, that were gonna kill all the Black people. It's not a comedy.

Joe Rogan 1:22:52 That's the movie?

Michael Jai White 1:22:54 It's not a comedy.

Joe Rogan 1:22:55 Wow.

Michael Jai White 1:22:55 It was gonna, it was gonna give sickle cell anemia to all the Black people. Now, the, the, the conspiratorial th- I'm, I've been a Black man for a long time, and it is really funny because in the community, conspiracy is a big thing, right? So it, like, that whole conspiratorial thing, "Oh, they trying to get you," that kind of a thing, it really... It c- its engine was that, that paranoia that this liter of liquid was going to kill Black people.

Joe Rogan 1:23:26 Well, there was so much evidence that those conspiracies were real-

Michael Jai White 1:23:29 But, but-

Joe Rogan 1:23:29 ... like the Tuskegee.

Michael Jai White 1:23:30 But b- uh, of course, that, that's, that's something that's like... It's, it's on its feet, though.

Joe Rogan 1:23:35 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:23:36 But come on, a liter [chuckles] of something this big in the water systems that was gonna kill all the Black people, and that's not a comedy. That was a serious movie. But when you look at it, that's hilarious. It's absolutely hilarious to think that you can do a movie about that. So to do a movie, I thought, that really, really talked about that time period, where it was kind of this overcorrection, 'cause [chuckles] you know, you had in the '60s, there were, like, you know, butlers and maids and all that kind of stuff, but now you had these super over-corrected badasses that could just do anything, right? And I thought it was hilarious to look at it and treat it as if it were, like, back in that day, like a, like a lost movie. Actually, Tarantino was somebody I was talking to about that whole thing, uh, when I was putting A- uh, Black Dynamite together.

Joe Rogan 1:24:37 Mm.

Michael Jai White 1:24:37 And he had certain ideas, but, you know, I kinda went my own direction with it. But yeah, man, so yeah, things like that, like, you know, I, I was... I've gotten to a place where I'm, you know, putting these things together that really interest me, and I'm finding that there's an audience that likes it as well. But yeah, man, so, uh, you know, it, it, it just occurred to me that it was bizarre.

Joe Rogan 1:25:01 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:25:02 Yeah, so I mean, you know, and, and-

Joe Rogan 1:25:04 So for that movie, that movie just came to you?

Michael Jai White 1:25:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:07 But d-

Michael Jai White 1:25:07 It came to me just like... Uh, the whole movie came to me in a ride to set.

Joe Rogan 1:25:12 Is that n- normal for ideas, or do you sometimes sit down and say, like, "I wanna write an idea about blank?"

Michael Jai White 1:25:19 Sometimes. Sometimes. Like, I have a movie that... The, the next movie I'm gonna do is a, a, a sequel to a movie I did called As Good as Dead, right? Uh, and it became, um, Samuel Goldwin's- one of their most successful movies. I, I, I wrote the idea. It was based off my brother. My brother, he, he went from Florida into Mexico and started a family. He just, like, fell in love with Mexico. And I kind of based my, my character on him, and he's basically a cop that's, like, hiding out in, in Mexico and, you know, trying to avoid, uh, this, you know, syndicate or whatever that's trying to kill him. But, um, I-... That movie just came to me. I, I wrote it, we were in production, like, two months later, and we actually got the movie done within a year, and it was-

Joe Rogan 1:26:12 How did you get it made so quick?

Michael Jai White 1:26:14 Yeah, I mean, they, they responded to the script. And it was kind of like a grown-up, uh, Karate Kid in a way. So my character, you don't know what- what is this Black dude doing working construction in Mexico? And he's got, you know, he's got his Wing Chun dummy, and he's training in his backyard, and there's a kid who's trying to avoid the gangs that he befriends, that he's- he teaches this unique kind of martial art. And so one thing leads to another, this kid gets good at it, and they trace the style back to my character. And then, you know, it, uh, then the, the bad guys are trying to kill me, and I have to fight back. So what we're doing, um, we're about to do a sequel. I start that in a couple of weeks, actually. So I wrote that one. Um, but yeah, so, uh, I, I feel like... I don't know, uh, I'm, I'm still a fan of movies. I, I don't- I wouldn't write something I wouldn't wanna see, and I've seen a lot, you know? I- I think I understand this industry. I understand, um, there's a lot of stories that, that I think could be told with a, with fresh ways, and with the action and martial arts, that could be new and exciting. Like, I'm try- I'm getting to a place where I'm trying to make fight scenes look very real, like, including, uh, choreographing mistakes.

Joe Rogan 1:27:37 Mm.

Michael Jai White 1:27:38 You know what I mean? I think people have become m- so much more sophisticated watching UFC fights and all that type of stuff. I think you gotta raise the bar to make something look real. And there's a lot of the stuff that's in the, you know, the, the superhero movies and whatever, that you just kinda go, "Okay, you're seeing choreography for choreography's sake."

Joe Rogan 1:28:01 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:28:02 And you're not invested, 'cause you don't feel like you're looking at a real fight.

Joe Rogan 1:28:07 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:28:07 And so I like to try to, you know, use my platform to step that up a bit.

Joe Rogan 1:28:11 Yeah, that's hard-

Michael Jai White 1:28:12 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:28:12 ... as a, especially as a person who is a martial artist, to watch fight scenes and go... You have to kind of suspend disbelief and go, "All right, let's just play out."

Michael Jai White 1:28:20 Well, yeah, k- kind of like... You know, it's weird, but, you know, kind of full circle, it's kind of going back to the way Bruce Lee did stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:28:25 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:28:26 I mean, he's a little faster than the other person, he has a little bit more technique. And in a, and, you know, and if you imagine... Like, even if I imagine you in a real fight, your technique's not going nowhere, and other people are not gonna have that same technique. You're gonna beat, you know, you beat somebody with a punch, you do things that would logically, uh, give you the edge, that's what you shoot.

Joe Rogan 1:28:49 Mm.

Michael Jai White 1:28:49 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 1:28:50 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:28:50 Yeah, so it's, it's not like you gotta do a lot of camera tricks.

Joe Rogan 1:28:54 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:28:54 If you're moving faster and stronger than another, another person, well, there it is. There it is. So, um, luckily, you know, I mean, I can put things on screen that kind of resemble what things might look like, you know? And you get the bene- benefit of the doubt because, you know, you're, you're in a heroic position.

Joe Rogan 1:29:16 It's just very hard to do that. It's very hard to make it look real. That's... There's a real art to that.

Michael Jai White 1:29:22 Yeah. Yeah, but like, like, with the, the movie that you turned down, Blood and Bone [laughing] I, like-

Joe Rogan 1:29:27 I turned down John Wick 4, too, though.

Michael Jai White 1:29:29 I could... Oh, my, man.

Joe Rogan 1:29:30 Yeah. I turn down a lot of movies.

Michael Jai White 1:29:32 You do. You did, you did the right thing, 'cause what you're doing, you could not... You know, this could not be more, you know, up your alley, doing the things that you're doing. But, like-

Joe Rogan 1:29:40 John Wick was hard. I'm a giant John Wick fan-

Michael Jai White 1:29:43 Are you?

Joe Rogan 1:29:43 ... especially John Wick 1. And event- and obviously-

Michael Jai White 1:29:45 Well, there's gonna be a, there's gonna be a John Wick 7, so-

Joe Rogan 1:29:47 I know

Michael Jai White 1:29:48 ... you can decide to do what you want to. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:29:49 No, no. They got kind of crazy.

Michael Jai White 1:29:51 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:29:51 They, they, they're over the top now.

Michael Jai White 1:29:52 [laughing] Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:29:53 But even John Wick 1 was totally unrealistic.

Michael Jai White 1:29:55 Oh, man, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:29:56 Totally unrealistic, but so fun.

Michael Jai White 1:29:58 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:29:58 I fucking love those movies.

Michael Jai White 1:30:00 Yeah, well, I, I got something that's kind of in that vein that I just finished. There's a lot of body count, but a lot, with a lot of CQB. I've been s- I've been studying that for a while. Uh, a lot, lot of like-

Joe Rogan 1:30:10 What is CQB?

Michael Jai White 1:30:11 Oh, cl- close quarter combat.

Joe Rogan 1:30:13 Oh, okay.

Michael Jai White 1:30:13 You got close quarter battle. Um, but, um, you know, I've been doing, like, you know, uh, a lot of, like, tactical training, and kind of getting myself... I, I may, I may compete at, at some point.

Joe Rogan 1:30:27 Oh, really?

Michael Jai White 1:30:28 Yeah, yeah. I've be- I've gotten pretty into it. My, my-

Joe Rogan 1:30:31 Where do you train at?

Michael Jai White 1:30:32 Oh, a lot of places. I, I train with a guy named, uh, Tyler Gray. He's Delta Force. Uh, a lot... I got a lot of friends who are, like, you know, Special Force guys, and-

Joe Rogan 1:30:42 You ever go to Taran Tactical?

Michael Jai White 1:30:43 Oh, of course.

Joe Rogan 1:30:44 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:30:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:45 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:30:45 I go... Yeah, I go to, to Taran quite a bit. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:30:47 That guy's the best.

Michael Jai White 1:30:48 Oh, yeah, he's, he's a... Man, he's a m- amazing. He-

Joe Rogan 1:30:51 You wanna talk about someone who's very technical.

Michael Jai White 1:30:53 Oh, my God, it's just... [scoffs] He shoots from the hip-

Joe Rogan 1:30:57 Mm

Michael Jai White 1:30:57 ... like, better than anybody who's using a laser, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:31:00 No, he's pre-

Michael Jai White 1:31:01 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:31:01 ... preposterous.

Michael Jai White 1:31:02 It's un- it's unreal.

Joe Rogan 1:31:02 Always iron sights.

Michael Jai White 1:31:04 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:04 You know, he doesn't... I mean, he uses red dots, but-

Michael Jai White 1:31:07 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:31:07 ... you know, he prefers iron sights. He's like, "They never fail, they never go wrong."

Michael Jai White 1:31:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:11 And he's so crazy accurate.

Michael Jai White 1:31:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:13 It's wild to watch.

Michael Jai White 1:31:14 And when you think about, like, how long, how fast could you just take out everybody in this damn room, it's kind of-

Joe Rogan 1:31:21 It's kind of spooky.

Michael Jai White 1:31:21 Yeah, it is spooky.

Joe Rogan 1:31:23 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:31:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:23 Well, it's also-

Michael Jai White 1:31:24 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:31:24 ... he's so calm about it, too.

Michael Jai White 1:31:25 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:26 It's weird, like, almost, like, autistic, like, weird-

Michael Jai White 1:31:29 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:31:29 ... just fucking Rain Man-ish.

Michael Jai White 1:31:31 Yeah, yeah. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:31:32 Da, da, da, da, da. Like, what the fuck?

Michael Jai White 1:31:34 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:31:34 When you watch him do it, like, uh, many times I've gone to his range-

Michael Jai White 1:31:37 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:31:37 ... and trained, and then, you know, people will goad him into it, like-

Michael Jai White 1:31:40 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:31:40 ... "Do a, do a run."

Michael Jai White 1:31:41 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:31:41 Like, "Do this." And he's like, "Okay, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that-"

Michael Jai White 1:31:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:45 "... and then I'm gonna pull this out right here."

Michael Jai White 1:31:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:47 Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da!

Michael Jai White 1:31:49 Yeah. [laughing] It's, it's crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:31:51 You're like, "What the fuck did I just watch?"

Michael Jai White 1:31:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:53 That's crazy.

Michael Jai White 1:31:54 And then you, you see how many times he's won the championship?

Joe Rogan 1:31:56 Oh, yeah, ridiculous.

Michael Jai White 1:31:58 And, like, there's only a few people that won consecutive years, and he's got, like, seven years in a row-

Joe Rogan 1:32:03 Yeah

Michael Jai White 1:32:04 ... and chunk, just chunks with... I'm like-... This is crazy!

Joe Rogan 1:32:07 Yeah, he's a very unique talent.

Michael Jai White 1:32:09 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:32:09 Very unique talent. Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:32:11 Yeah, m- a buddy of mine, you know, like Tyler Gray, he just, he, he's been Delta, he's been, uh, [exhales] he's been decorate- he's... Oh, my God, his place in, in Vegas, he's, he creates guns, and he's got, like, more in his arsenal than every gun store [chuckles] you could imagine. But, like, he's, like, he's something else. Like, he- one of the most mellow people you ever wanna meet in your life. And, I mean, he's, he's been the guy, uh, been the consultant and director on, on Navy SEALs for years, and, you know... But I got a lot, a lot of friends doing that. So my, my brother, he just, he just, uh, retired from Secret Service. And, you know, you know Danny, Danny Hester?

Joe Rogan 1:32:56 No.

Michael Jai White 1:32:57 Uh, he was a former, um, Mr. Oly- Mr. Olympia, uh, Classic Physique, but he's gotten into... You know me, I, I shoot with these guys all the time. And, and, um, actually, uh, Flex Wheeler. You know, a lot, a lot of the guys are, you know, into the gun stuff, you know? So we, we go set up stuff and, you know, range and stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:33:16 But once you start training, you realize, like, how difficult it is and how long the learning curve is.

Michael Jai White 1:33:22 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:33:22 'Cause you think, "Oh, you point, you pull the trigger. What's the big deal?"

Michael Jai White 1:33:26 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:33:26 Well, then you, you get into it, and then you see someone like Taran or someone who's competing, and you go, "Oh-"

Michael Jai White 1:33:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:32 "... wow, there's-- this is just like everything else, just like karate, like jujitsu, like e- there's levels."

Michael Jai White 1:33:38 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:38 Levels and levels and levels.

Michael Jai White 1:33:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:40 And, and you see people competing, and you go, "Oh, wow!"

Michael Jai White 1:33:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:43 "Yeah, I'd like to do that someday."

Michael Jai White 1:33:45 Yeah, yeah. You, you're in a great place for it.

Joe Rogan 1:33:47 Yes. Yeah-

Michael Jai White 1:33:48 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:33:48 ... Texas is a great place for it.

Michael Jai White 1:33:50 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:50 There's this staccato range that we go to sometimes. It's awesome. They have all these different setups out there. They have this Old West town-

Michael Jai White 1:33:56 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:33:56 ... with all these different, like, targets set up, and you run from doorway to doorway.

Michael Jai White 1:34:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:34:00 It's pretty badass.

Michael Jai White 1:34:01 Yeah, Jon Jones, I see, is doing quite a bit of that. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:34:04 Jon Jones is a fucking scary human being. [laughing] He's so-

Michael Jai White 1:34:07 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:07 And if you get past him, he's got his fucking dog, Dutch.

Michael Jai White 1:34:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:10 Which is, you know, he brings a Belgian Malinois everywhere he goes.

Michael Jai White 1:34:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I know, um, my, my g- good friend, you know, Josh Barnett, he's, he's at Taran's a lot, too.

Joe Rogan 1:34:20 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:34:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:21 He's another scary human being.

Michael Jai White 1:34:22 Yeah, yeah, very.

Joe Rogan 1:34:23 And a very analytical, intelligent-

Michael Jai White 1:34:25 One of the most s-

Joe Rogan 1:34:25 Very well-read.

Michael Jai White 1:34:26 He is, like, Jeopardy! smart.

Joe Rogan 1:34:28 Yes.

Michael Jai White 1:34:28 He's, like, ridiculous.

Joe Rogan 1:34:29 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:34:29 He can... You- There's not many things that he doesn't know. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:34:33 Right, yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:34:34 He's amazing. I s- I watched you guys, uh, uh, you guys on this show. I was very flattered. He start... He mentioned, out of nowhere, he started talking about, um, how he w- and he was inspired by myself and my wife, and that, you know, it actually got me real choked up.

Joe Rogan 1:34:51 Aw.

Michael Jai White 1:34:52 Yeah, I was like, "What, man?" You know, he's just-

Joe Rogan 1:34:54 Yeah, Josh is a great guy.

Michael Jai White 1:34:55 Yeah. You know, oh, incidentally, my wife is somebody that, uh... I don't know, um, you, you met her a long time ago. You last saw her sliding down the Luxor.

Joe Rogan 1:35:05 Oh, wow!

Michael Jai White 1:35:07 Yeah. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:35:07 That's crazy.

Michael Jai White 1:35:08 Yep. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:35:09 That's crazy. On Fear Factor?

Michael Jai White 1:35:11 On Fear Factor.

Joe Rogan 1:35:12 Wow!

Michael Jai White 1:35:12 Yeah, she was sliding down the Luxor when you last saw her, and then-

Joe Rogan 1:35:15 That's crazy

Michael Jai White 1:35:16 ... she slid right into my, my arms. [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:35:19 [laughing] That's awesome.

Michael Jai White 1:35:21 Yeah, we- yeah, we've been do- we've done our, our sixth movie together.

Joe Rogan 1:35:24 Oh, wow.

Michael Jai White 1:35:25 Yeah, so we, we've been... You know, we got little two, two... Our, our teenagers are... We got one less, well, we got two left in the house, going to college now, so you know, we're about to be-

Joe Rogan 1:35:36 That's awesome. Congratulations

Michael Jai White 1:35:36 ... empty nesters. Yeah, man. So yeah, it's, it's wild how these things, uh, kinda connect.

Joe Rogan 1:35:42 It is wild.

Michael Jai White 1:35:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:35:43 It is wild. Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:35:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:35:45 Josh is, uh, one of the, the... He's, like, one of the best examples to me of when people think of a martial artist or think of a cage fighter-

Michael Jai White 1:35:54 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:35:54 ... former UFC heavyweight champion, and you think of a guy like, "Oh, probably some brute, some dude."

Michael Jai White 1:35:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:35:59 You have a conversation with him-

Michael Jai White 1:36:01 Yes

Joe Rogan 1:36:01 ... and you realize the depth of his intellect and the depth of his knowledge-

Michael Jai White 1:36:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:36:05 ... like, how much he knows about Nietzsche. He can quote Nietzsche.

Michael Jai White 1:36:09 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 1:36:09 Like, he's, he's so well-read. He, he makes his own whiskey.

Michael Jai White 1:36:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36:13 You know? Like, he's a very interesting guy.

Michael Jai White 1:36:16 Man, what a Renaissance guy, man.

Joe Rogan 1:36:17 Exactly.

Michael Jai White 1:36:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36:18 A real Renaissance man.

Michael Jai White 1:36:18 Yeah, we, we usually... We have the same birthday, so sometimes we throw parties together.

Joe Rogan 1:36:23 Oh, that's awesome.

Michael Jai White 1:36:23 You know, yeah, when he's, when he's in town. He's always in Japan, and just all over the place, man.

Joe Rogan 1:36:28 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:36:28 He's like s- he's an amazing human being.

Joe Rogan 1:36:30 He really is.

Michael Jai White 1:36:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36:31 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:36:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36:32 And w- again, one of the best examples, like, when people have a stereotype of what they think-

Michael Jai White 1:36:37 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:36:37 ... a cage fighter is.

Michael Jai White 1:36:38 Mm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36:38 And Josh was the youngest ever UFC heavyweight champion.

Michael Jai White 1:36:41 Yeah, yeah, and, uh, man, we... And that's probably, like, I've trained more with him than so many people, like, you know. And, uh, it's just, [exhales] it's just... Uh, what a great friendship and what a, what a inspirational thinking person.

Joe Rogan 1:36:56 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:36:56 You know? And, uh, you know, so, yeah, and, you know, he did, um, Never Back Down, uh, 3 with me. We, we shot that in Thailand.

Joe Rogan 1:37:06 Oh, wow.

Michael Jai White 1:37:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37:07 What's it like training in Thailand? That's gotta be fun.

Michael Jai White 1:37:10 Oh, man, uh, kinda hot. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:37:13 Yeah, but the motherland of Muay Thai.

Michael Jai White 1:37:15 Yeah, yeah. Again, like, with every style, there's its, its strengths and its weaknesses. You know, a lot of, a lot of them... You know, a lot of things are around, you know, they go r- around-

Joe Rogan 1:37:25 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 1:37:25 ... and not straight.

Joe Rogan 1:37:26 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:37:26 Straight, you know, 'cause, of course, the quickest, you know, distance between two points is a straight line. So it's not a whole lot of, um... Well, they could do with a lot more boxing technique and, and, uh, some of those things. But man, talk about toughness-

Joe Rogan 1:37:45 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 1:37:45 ... that kind of a thing. But it's, it's kind of a tragic, like, how they, they beat the shit out of themselves.

Joe Rogan 1:37:51 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:37:51 By the time they're in their 30s, man, they're like-

Joe Rogan 1:37:54 Yeah, they're busted up.

Michael Jai White 1:37:54 Yeah, it is.

Joe Rogan 1:37:55 Well, they start fighting when they're very, very young.

Michael Jai White 1:37:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37:57 But it's also led to them training so intelligently.

Michael Jai White 1:38:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:38:00 You know, one of the things about Thai training, they don't spar like a lot of Americans do-

Michael Jai White 1:38:05 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:38:05 ... where they beat the fuck out of each other.

Michael Jai White 1:38:07 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:38:07 They play spar.

Michael Jai White 1:38:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:38:08 And that play sparring-... allows them to not get beat up by the time they get into the ring on Saturday.

Michael Jai White 1:38:14 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:38:14 Because a lot of them are fighting every week.

Michael Jai White 1:38:16 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:38:16 So they do touch sparring, you know? And a lot of people say, "Oh, you can't get good touch sparring," but you certainly can!

Michael Jai White 1:38:23 Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:38:23 Especially when you're fighting every weekend.

Michael Jai White 1:38:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:38:26 And it's probably the best way to do it, because you're, you're, you know, just working on timing-

Michael Jai White 1:38:32 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:38:32 ... pattern recognition, and just getting your, just your reps in.

Michael Jai White 1:38:36 Yeah, just like with jujitsu, of course, when you don't muscle things-

Joe Rogan 1:38:40 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 1:38:40 ... when the technique, you let the technique do its, its thing-

Joe Rogan 1:38:43 Right

Michael Jai White 1:38:43 ... it's so much better.

Joe Rogan 1:38:44 Right, right.

Michael Jai White 1:38:45 Yeah, and you, you, you maintain so much better as well.

Joe Rogan 1:38:48 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:38:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:38:49 And I think one of the best examples of that is, like, Saenchai, because Saenchai is in his 40s-

Michael Jai White 1:38:53 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:38:54 ... and he, he's still fucking people up.

Michael Jai White 1:38:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:38:55 I mean, it's crazy-

Michael Jai White 1:38:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:38:56 ... watching that guy fight. But you look at him, a very unassuming guy.

Michael Jai White 1:39:00 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:39:00 You know, he's not ripped.

Michael Jai White 1:39:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:39:02 You know, he's an older guy, but he's just... His timing-

Michael Jai White 1:39:05 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:39:05 ... and his smoothness and his-

Michael Jai White 1:39:07 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:39:07 ... the way he moves, it's v- very playful.

Michael Jai White 1:39:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:39:10 But he's just fucking people up.

Michael Jai White 1:39:11 Yeah, yeah. Man, it m- it makes me... I miss Thailand. I, I actually did my... We did our w- wedding ceremony in Thailand.

Joe Rogan 1:39:19 Oh, wow!

Michael Jai White 1:39:19 Yeah, and you know, who was, uh, who, who, uh, officiated part of it was Tony Jaa.

Joe Rogan 1:39:25 Oh, really?

Michael Jai White 1:39:25 Tony Jaa-

Joe Rogan 1:39:26 Oh, that's cool

Michael Jai White 1:39:26 ... did the, the Buddhist part of our wedding.

Joe Rogan 1:39:28 Oh, wow.

Michael Jai White 1:39:28 He did the water blessing, and he also sang at, at the wedding.

Joe Rogan 1:39:32 [laughs]

Michael Jai White 1:39:32 Yeah, yeah, he's-

Joe Rogan 1:39:33 That's cool

Michael Jai White 1:39:33 ... yeah, he's like-

Joe Rogan 1:39:34 Ong Bak.

Michael Jai White 1:39:35 Yes, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:39:36 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:39:37 One of, one of the greatest martial artists ever.

Joe Rogan 1:39:39 Ooh!

Michael Jai White 1:39:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:39:39 What a great movie that was.

Michael Jai White 1:39:40 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:39:41 For martial arts technique-

Michael Jai White 1:39:42 Mm, mm

Joe Rogan 1:39:42 ... that was, that was, like, one of the first times, like, real, true Muay Thai was exhibited in a film, like-

Michael Jai White 1:39:46 Absolutely, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:39:47 ... at a super high level.

Michael Jai White 1:39:48 Yeah, yeah. And Tony, just, my God, like, he would do the- these incredible feats in front of you, just unbelievable. He could, he could do a spi- he would do a somersault, hit you in the, in the shoulder, and just tap you like that with your foot, with his foot.

Joe Rogan 1:40:03 Wow.

Michael Jai White 1:40:04 Just he had that, that much control. It's unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 1:40:07 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:40:07 Yeah, he, he, he was sick la- r- recently, but he's, uh, I think he's overcoming, uh, uh... I think it was, uh, I think it was a C word, man.

Joe Rogan 1:40:17 Ooh.

Michael Jai White 1:40:17 Yeah. You know, I haven't talked to him in a minute, but I just found out about it, like, about, I don't know, a couple weeks ago.

Joe Rogan 1:40:23 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:40:24 Yeah, he was... I, I knew he got thinner, but I'm, I'm hoping that he's, uh, he's better now.

Joe Rogan 1:40:29 Yeah, he's a legend.

Michael Jai White 1:40:30 Yeah, he's something else.

Joe Rogan 1:40:31 It's so fascinating to me how different parts of the world develop a different style of martial arts.

Michael Jai White 1:40:37 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:40:37 And Thailand in particular, because of the fact that there was so much gambling and there were so many fights-

Michael Jai White 1:40:43 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:40:43 ... that they developed this very heavy leg kick, clench, elbow, knee style.

Michael Jai White 1:40:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40:49 It was just very different than a lot of the other styles.

Michael Jai White 1:40:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:40:52 You know, and for a long time was really dominating in kickboxing.

Michael Jai White 1:40:57 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:40:57 But then you're starting to see other styles, like particularly a lot of Kyokushin guys now-

Michael Jai White 1:41:01 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:41:02 ... spec- specifically out of Japan.

Michael Jai White 1:41:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:41:04 Have you ever seen this kid, Yuki Yoza?

Michael Jai White 1:41:07 Is he Kyokushin?

Joe Rogan 1:41:08 Yeah, Kyokushin guy out of Japan who's dominating people.

Michael Jai White 1:41:12 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 1:41:12 He, he fights very different, man. He's fucking up a lot of Thai guys with calf kicks.

Michael Jai White 1:41:18 Okay, okay.

Joe Rogan 1:41:19 Oh, my God, dude.

Michael Jai White 1:41:19 No, I... No, I hadn't heard of, heard-

Joe Rogan 1:41:21 Oh, fascinating fight.

Michael Jai White 1:41:21 I just officiated a Kyokushin tournament yesterday. Well, well, it was, uh, Sunday. Was that two days ago?

Joe Rogan 1:41:27 Uh, yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:41:28 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:29 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:41:29 Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm still connected in the Kyokushin. I mean, been doing that, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:41:33 Yeah

Michael Jai White 1:41:34 ... uh, since I was a kid. But-

Joe Rogan 1:41:35 Well, you did the whole thing, like, where you have to fight, like, 100 guys in a day? You did all that shit, right?

Michael Jai White 1:41:39 Oh, yeah, well, I've done the 30 Man.

Joe Rogan 1:41:40 Yeah. [laughs]

Michael Jai White 1:41:40 I haven't done the 100, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:43 Not that I'm exaggerating, but it's like-

Michael Jai White 1:41:44 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:41:44 ... a lot of people.

Michael Jai White 1:41:45 Yeah, yeah, which is the toughest... Honestly, it's a, I, I love it, but it was the toughest thing I'd ever, I ever had to really face. Because you come to a point where you wanna give up, and you have to just, you know, kind of walk the burning sands.

Joe Rogan 1:42:00 What is it like walking the next day?

Michael Jai White 1:42:02 [laughs] Man, I had... I mean, I remember the first time I did a 10 Man, and I had several knees on my legs, put it that way. So because they, they destroy your legs so bad.

Joe Rogan 1:42:14 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:42:14 Right? I did a 20 Man one other time and made the mistake of, uh, having a, um... I had, like, a, a energy drink beforehand, which is stupid, because now my heart is racing higher than normal, and so [chuckles] it made it even harder. But somewhere around, like, inevitably, you get to a place where I remember the 12th guy, I'm like, "What the fuck are you doing? Why are you here?" You know? But you have to dig deep.

Joe Rogan 1:42:41 And you got 18 more to go. [laughs]

Michael Jai White 1:42:42 Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, "Man..." But honestly-

Joe Rogan 1:42:46 It's a hard, such a hard style.

Michael Jai White 1:42:47 Yeah, but man, it's something about getting... You know, 'cause you're, you're gonna be faced with yourself. You're gonna be... Y- you wanna quit, and you have to just dig down and get through it, and there's nothing like it when you accomplish it, uh, because you know where you can go. You know that most of the time, you, you're, you tell yourself you're done, you're not. What a valuable lesson it is-

Joe Rogan 1:43:17 Mm

Michael Jai White 1:43:18 ... to know that about yourself.

Joe Rogan 1:43:19 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:43:20 And you can't... There's no substitute for that, and it's just something that you just benefit. Uh, I remember the last time I did this, um, we had to train out in, um, in, uh, Banff, Canada. Because usually these things are in Japan, and people from all over the style, they come, and they train you. You're, like, training eight hours a day. You got these little lunch breaks, and I didn't think it through. I, uh, I, I just, I think the last one was, like, about five, six years ago. I, you know, wanted to challenge myself. I wanted to do this, but I was by myself, and most people come with family members and all that kind of stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:44:01 So you're by yourself, you're a movie star. [laughs]

Michael Jai White 1:44:04 Yeah, and I have the target on my back, but it's like-

Joe Rogan 1:44:06 Of course!

Michael Jai White 1:44:06 Yeah, so, and so... And it's like, we'd have a training thing, and then you got a, a certain amount of time to go eat, but then people wanna take pictures of me. And I'm the last guy to get into the-... [chuckles] then to the lunch thing, and then I was like, "Oh, shit, I got 10 minutes to eat, and then I gotta get back in the next training session."

Joe Rogan 1:44:24 And you have a full stomach.

Michael Jai White 1:44:26 I- i- yeah, and then, then you got like... I mean, it kinda sucked, but I, I taught myself something. I said, "You know, you could be three hours in," I'd tell myself, "I just got here. I just got here," and I'd dig deeper, and then whatever. And then the last few days, you're just fighting down to the last person. And, you know, there's people that's like, you know, they got their, their eye on you 'cause like, you know, I've got the bullseye on me. But the great thing is, dude, I, like I say, I learned a lot. I'm, I'm doing footwork with Frankie for years. I'm... I have boxing technique. I've got Benny Urquidez. Bill Wallace was my instructor. I've got so many things in my arsenal, and to test myself, it's such a, it's such a great benefit to, to, you know... And it was weird because I was thinking like, "Am I insane?" 'Cause I had a movie that I was gonna be starting in, in, uh, like, a week later. I could've just been messed up. I could've had a broken leg or whatever. A lot of times you leave with a souvenir, they call it. Like, you know, when you train in Japan, a lot of the Japanese wanna give you a souvenir. That means a broken bone. But I had to try to, you know, overcome that. So in life, it's i- especially in this kind of coddled l- life I'm living, I don't get a chance to test myself that much, right?

Joe Rogan 1:45:52 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:45:53 And, you know, yeah, I had to sh- you know, listen to my own complaints and sh- and shut the fuck up and get through it. Yeah, "Oh, it's not fair because everybody's taking pictures, and you're doing this, and w- and I'm by myself." No, no, that's not... The point is, get through it, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:46:12 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:46:12 And I'm so glad to do that, and I always like to... I- that's why I like to train with champions and, and stuff because, you know, that's... Y- you, you want, you wanna get through things. You, it should be... You should be tested. I mean, as a m- if I had a religion, a, a large part of it, if I was the head of my own [chuckles] religious cult, would be that men go through something. There's a rites of passage.

Joe Rogan 1:46:38 Yes.

Michael Jai White 1:46:39 You gotta know how to protect yourself and your family and your loved ones. That, to me, is, is paramount, and-

Joe Rogan 1:46:44 You also have to know-

Michael Jai White 1:46:46 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:46:46 ... what's inside of you. Like-

Michael Jai White 1:46:47 That's exactly right

Joe Rogan 1:46:48 ... and the only way to find out is to test it.

Michael Jai White 1:46:50 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:46:50 'Cause otherwise, you get these dudes that have their chest pumped out, and they're talking loud. Why are they doing that? Because they wanna scare people off.

Michael Jai White 1:46:58 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:46:58 Because they don't know what they're capable of.

Michael Jai White 1:47:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:47:00 They're terrified.

Michael Jai White 1:47:01 Yeah, and you can't hide from yourself.

Joe Rogan 1:47:03 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:47:04 And that, that's the thing. I'm not gonna bullshit myself. I'd like... I wanna know, you know? And, and it's great. It's, it's, it's no- there's no substitute, uh, for going through that, and that's the thing that I... why I love fighters so much. You know, you're, you're, [chuckles] you're, you're, you're basically naked to the world.

Joe Rogan 1:47:27 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:47:28 Uh, you have to dig down. You have to overcome things.

Joe Rogan 1:47:31 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:47:31 That's why I love them so much because they're, they're our gladiators.

Joe Rogan 1:47:35 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:47:36 They... We, we live vicariously through them, and that's why I'm a little dogged about actors refr- re- receiving those accolades-

Joe Rogan 1:47:45 Right

Michael Jai White 1:47:45 ... when they haven't done it.

Joe Rogan 1:47:46 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:47:47 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 1:47:47 Right. I know what you're saying.

Michael Jai White 1:47:47 Even myself included. I don't care if somebody says, "Oh, he's not a fighter. He, you know, he's an actor." I... Fine, you should think that way.

Joe Rogan 1:47:53 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:47:54 But personally, it's, it's something deeper for myself, and I th- you know, one person I think I, I identify with that is you because I've seen you. I've seen you in the gyms back when it wasn't popular, and, and we're doing it for reasons that are not... it had nothing to do with glory or, you know, ego or anything like that. It's just for self-improvement.

Joe Rogan 1:48:17 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:48:17 You know? And that's what it's about, man, 'cause it's about overcoming obstacles, and your biggest obstacle in the world is yourself.

Joe Rogan 1:48:22 Yeah. Yeah, my instructor, when I was very young, told me that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential.

Michael Jai White 1:48:29 Exactly. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:48:31 But it's so hard.

Michael Jai White 1:48:32 Yeah, and-

Joe Rogan 1:48:32 And people need something hard.

Michael Jai White 1:48:34 Yeah, and what about Khabib's... Uh, what did, what did Khabib say? Like, uh, what he says about discipline?

Joe Rogan 1:48:41 Oh, that c- that rant?

Michael Jai White 1:48:43 That... Man, I had to re- [exhales] oh, that, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:48:45 I don't know if that rant is real. Somebody told me that rant is AI.

Michael Jai White 1:48:48 What?

Joe Rogan 1:48:49 Yeah. Is it AI?

Speaker 1:48:50 I think so.

Joe Rogan 1:48:50 Damn it!

Michael Jai White 1:48:51 What?

Joe Rogan 1:48:51 Well, who cares?

Michael Jai White 1:48:52 Well, yeah, but it, it was damn good.

Joe Rogan 1:48:54 It's in Khabib's voice, and I bet Khabib would agree with every word it said.

Michael Jai White 1:48:57 Shit. Yes, yes. You know, indeed.

Joe Rogan 1:48:58 Find that rant-

Michael Jai White 1:48:59 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:48:59 ... because l- let's pretend that it's not AI. [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:49:02 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:49:02 Or it may be one of AI's greatest contributions-

Michael Jai White 1:49:05 Right

Joe Rogan 1:49:05 ... to martial arts.

Michael Jai White 1:49:05 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:49:06 Because becoming addicted to discipline.

Michael Jai White 1:49:08 Yeah, every man is addicted to something.

Joe Rogan 1:49:10 Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:49:10 You know, so [chuckles] ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49:11 Oh, it's such a great rant.

Michael Jai White 1:49:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49:13 Here it is.

Michael Jai White 1:49:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49:14 Give me this. Give me this. It's such a fucking great rant. Start it from the beginning, too.

Speaker 1:49:19 [upbeat music] Every man addicted to something. Some smoke, some drink, some chase girls, some waste time. But real man, he addicted to discipline, to early wakes, to prayer, to training, to silence. Discipline no need motivation. Discipline move without feeling. Discipline say, "I go anyway," even when tired, even when lonely. Discipline is best addiction. You want strong life? Discipline build it. You want peace? Discipline protect it. You want respect? Discipline earn it. No shortcut, only work. Be man with control, not man with excuse. No cry, no blame. You want better life? Start with better habits. Discipline every day until discipline become you. Every-

Joe Rogan 1:50:03 Fucking yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:50:04 Yeah, I mean, I don't give a damn-

Joe Rogan 1:50:06 Damn

Michael Jai White 1:50:06 ... if it's AI or whatever, but like, it-... Well, kudos to the AI person that put that together.

Joe Rogan 1:50:10 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:50:11 Well, I-

Joe Rogan 1:50:12 That's how he lives.

Michael Jai White 1:50:13 Yeah!

Joe Rogan 1:50:13 So even if it's AI, he would go, "This is accurate." [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:50:16 [laughing] Yes. Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:50:18 Well, I'll tell you what, man, that part of the world, Dagestan, you wanna talk about a hard part of the world-

Michael Jai White 1:50:22 Oh, yeah. Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:50:22 ... that is developing some of the baddest motherfuckers.

Michael Jai White 1:50:25 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:50:25 Even in Muay Thai, there's this cat coming out of Muay Thai at a, out of Dagestan right now, Azadulla Imangazaliev, who's, like, 22 years old.

Michael Jai White 1:50:35 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:50:35 And he is fucking everybody up.

Michael Jai White 1:50:38 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:50:38 A Dagestani Muay Thai fighter.

Michael Jai White 1:50:40 Really?

Joe Rogan 1:50:41 Who has his own style. He's this tall, lanky dude who's one of the most terrifying strikers alive right now.

Michael Jai White 1:50:47 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:50:47 A lot of people think he's the best striker alive.

Michael Jai White 1:50:49 Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 1:50:50 And he's 22, 22 or 23 years old, and he's just fucking everybody up.

Michael Jai White 1:50:56 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:50:56 He fights for One FC. Give me a, a highlight reel of this cat.

Speaker 1:50:59 Well, this is just from a fight, I guess. Uh, the, the highlight reel didn't pop up right away, so I just went with the first fight.

Joe Rogan 1:51:07 That's it. Best technical striker in the world.

Speaker 1:51:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:51:08 That's it. Click on that. Just give me some of this. Just start it from the beginning. This dude, that tall dude with the beard?

Michael Jai White 1:51:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:51:16 Azadulla Imangazaliev. Watch this motherfucker. What a style he has! I mean, it's just this long, tall, lanky dude, perfect timing and measurement, and he just starts piecing dudes up.

Michael Jai White 1:51:31 Mm.

Speaker 1:51:32 I think this is, like, his full fight.

Joe Rogan 1:51:34 Yeah, well, I don't think so.

Michael Jai White 1:51:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:51:35 If you scoot ahead, I think he fucks this guy up pretty quick.

Speaker 1:51:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:51:38 I've seen this fight.

Speaker 1:51:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:51:41 This guy he catches with one shot, but some dudes, not so lucky.

Michael Jai White 1:51:46 Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 1:51:47 Yeah, that was one shot, but it keeps going, and then give me the next fight. He just starts lighting guys on fi- including Thais.

Michael Jai White 1:51:56 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:51:56 And they, they don't know what the fuck is going on, 'cause he fights different than them.

Michael Jai White 1:52:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:52:00 I mean, he's a Muay Thai fighter.

Michael Jai White 1:52:02 He's got that straight... You know, that-

Joe Rogan 1:52:04 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 1:52:05 ... he's exploiting the fact that they, they got so much round technique.

Joe Rogan 1:52:08 Exactly. A lot of front kicks up the middle, and especially to the face. But also, his spinning attacks, he's got wicked spinning attacks, man.

Michael Jai White 1:52:17 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:52:17 And also comes off angle a lot. His head's never on the center line.

Michael Jai White 1:52:21 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:52:22 Super fucking technical, but just lighting dudes on fire. And just a, a, a, just an attacker, always attacking, and has the benefit of that range, that long range.

Michael Jai White 1:52:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:52:39 I mean-

Michael Jai White 1:52:39 Nice

Joe Rogan 1:52:39 ... dude is-

Michael Jai White 1:52:41 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:52:41 ... incredible. Incredible. And again, 22 years old. Like, look at that. So he's combining, like, taekwondo techniques, karate techniques-

Michael Jai White 1:52:51 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:52:52 ... and precision Muay Thai. I mean-

Michael Jai White 1:52:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:52:57 ... the problem with this stu- this, this, not this style, but this form, is that a lot of people aren't seeing it.

Michael Jai White 1:53:03 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:53:03 One FC is doing a really good job of highlighting a lot of, like, elite Muay Thai fighters. You know, they have Tawan Chai over there, and-

Michael Jai White 1:53:10 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:53:11 ... Saenchai, and all, all these, like, high-level guys. But in America, this, for whatever reason, has not caught on, and the only way this guy's gonna get the kind of attention that I think he deserves is if he gets into MMA.

Michael Jai White 1:53:23 Boom! [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:53:23 Yeah, look at, axe kick and everything. His spinning back fist-

Michael Jai White 1:53:26 Oh, man

Joe Rogan 1:53:26 ... boom.

Michael Jai White 1:53:27 His, his straight rights are no joke.

Joe Rogan 1:53:30 Oh, dude, he's a laser beam.

Michael Jai White 1:53:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:53:31 He's so focused. He's so good, man. So good.

Michael Jai White 1:53:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:53:35 Yeah. So the Dagestanis are now entering into Muay Thai, which is a terrible sign [chuckles] for all these Muay Thai guys.

Michael Jai White 1:53:43 Yeah, yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 1:53:44 'Cause those are hard people.

Michael Jai White 1:53:45 Some tough-ass people, man.

Joe Rogan 1:53:46 Hard people-

Michael Jai White 1:53:47 Oh, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:53:48 ... who start at a very young age.

Michael Jai White 1:53:50 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:53:50 I mean, a very young age. Like, and also, Dagestanis, uh, now, because of Khabib and Islam, they all know that this is the pathway to greatness.

Michael Jai White 1:53:58 Yes, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:53:59 And so there's-

Michael Jai White 1:54:00 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:54:00 ... heroes.

Michael Jai White 1:54:01 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:54:01 I mean, there's Ankalaev. There's all these guys that have been world champions out of Dagestan now.

Michael Jai White 1:54:05 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:54:05 So it's like, you're seeing all these guys come out of there, and some of these young guys that are coming up are so good.

Michael Jai White 1:54:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:54:12 They're so good. But this is fascinating to me, that you take a guy who's adapted this Thai style, but then morphed it into something that's different.

Michael Jai White 1:54:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:54:20 And again, like you were saying, a lot of straight techniques.

Michael Jai White 1:54:23 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:54:23 Especially when you're a tall guy like that for the weight class, 'cause I think he fights at 145.

Michael Jai White 1:54:27 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:54:28 And when you're that tall at 145-

Michael Jai White 1:54:30 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:54:30 ... and you've got those straight shots down the middle-

Michael Jai White 1:54:32 Oh, yeah. Like, his right is just like-

Joe Rogan 1:54:33 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 1:54:33 ... you can't really see it-

Joe Rogan 1:54:34 Laser beam

Michael Jai White 1:54:35 ... 'cause it's going, you know, right directly at him.

Joe Rogan 1:54:37 But it's also the hooks, too. His hooks are coming around the guard.

Michael Jai White 1:54:40 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:54:41 Like, everything is precise, and-

Michael Jai White 1:54:42 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:54:42 ... his accuracy is spectacular.

Michael Jai White 1:54:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:54:45 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:54:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:54:46 I'm a, I'm a student, obviously. I, I, I, I watch every fight I can.

Michael Jai White 1:54:51 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:54:51 I watch, I watch kickboxing.

Michael Jai White 1:54:53 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:54:53 I watch Muay Thai. I watch jujitsu matches. I watch it all.

Michael Jai White 1:54:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:54:57 But I, I'm always fascinated by these cats that stand out.

Michael Jai White 1:55:01 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:55:01 And this guy just stands out.

Michael Jai White 1:55:03 Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's great when somebody knows how to use their length like that.

Joe Rogan 1:55:06 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:55:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:55:08 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:55:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:55:08 Well, Yuki Yoza, the Kyokushin guy that I was telling you-

Michael Jai White 1:55:10 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:55:10 ... totally different. Well, this guy is doing a shelling up-

Michael Jai White 1:55:13 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:55:13 ... and getting in tight on guys and kicking the fuck out of their inner thigh-

Michael Jai White 1:55:17 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:55:17 ... outer calf, lower... Like, he's, he's chopping at their legs. So even Thai guys-

Michael Jai White 1:55:22 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:55:22 ... don't know what to do because they're-

Michael Jai White 1:55:24 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:55:24 ... not used to guys kicking their calves like this guy.

Michael Jai White 1:55:27 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:55:28 So he's inside, going shin to shin.

Michael Jai White 1:55:30 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:55:30 And you know as well as anybody, Kyokushin guys have some of the most conditioned shins in the world.

Michael Jai White 1:55:34 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:55:34 They're always battering shin to shin.

Michael Jai White 1:55:36 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:55:37 And th- this dude is just getting in, and you see in the second round, a lot of these Thai guys are like-

Michael Jai White 1:55:41 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:55:41 ... "Oh, fuck, I can't walk."

Michael Jai White 1:55:42 Yeah. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:55:42 "I ca- can't move right. My calves don't work anymore."

Michael Jai White 1:55:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:55:46 So the calf kick, which has really kind of revolutionized MMA, it's changed MMA.

Michael Jai White 1:55:51 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:55:51 Because one, two hard calf kicks, you're compromised.

Michael Jai White 1:55:55 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:55:55 You're not moving right anymore-

Michael Jai White 1:55:56 Right

Joe Rogan 1:55:56 ... and you're, you're not pivoting off that foot when you're punching-

Michael Jai White 1:55:58 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:55:58 ... so your punching power is diminished.

Michael Jai White 1:56:01 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:56:01 This Yuki Yoza guy is, like, putting it on Thai guys with it.

Michael Jai White 1:56:05 That's something.

Joe Rogan 1:56:05 Mm.

Michael Jai White 1:56:05 I mean, especially for a, for a Kyokushin guy to... I mean, the, the knock with Kyokushin, because I've been doing it ever since I was a kid-

Joe Rogan 1:56:12 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 1:56:12 ... is just that the kn- not developing facial, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:56:16 Exactly

Michael Jai White 1:56:16 ... facial, uh, you know, um,... blocks-

Joe Rogan 1:56:19 But this guy-

Michael Jai White 1:56:20 And slipping, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:56:20 ... has incorporated Russian-style boxing.

Michael Jai White 1:56:23 Oh, okay!

Joe Rogan 1:56:24 He's got Russian-style boxing with Kyokushin karate techniques.

Michael Jai White 1:56:27 Well, yeah, but that, with that Russian-style boxing, that, they're, they really kind of mastered the non-telegraph kind of-

Joe Rogan 1:56:35 Yeah

Michael Jai White 1:56:35 ... kind of, 'cause it looks like they're not moving fast.

Joe Rogan 1:56:37 So you need to find me a Yuki Yoza highlight reel.

Michael Jai White 1:56:39 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:56:40 He's- there's a bunch of fights with him and Thai guys. And, you know, the first round, Thai guys are doing their thing-

Michael Jai White 1:56:46 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:56:46 ... and it looks, you know, like a normal fight, but the Y- Yuki Yoza just starts chopping at those cats, ha, inside-

Michael Jai White 1:56:51 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:56:52 ... ka, ka, kai! And he's, like, multiple kicks to the, the calf from in-

Michael Jai White 1:56:55 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:56:55 ... tight and close.

Michael Jai White 1:56:56 Yeah, no, dude, that's punishing.

Joe Rogan 1:56:58 And you see guys, like, playing at, like, "Go ahead, kick me, kick me."

Michael Jai White 1:57:01 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:57:01 And then after a while, they're like, "Fuck, don't kick me anymore." [laughing]

Michael Jai White 1:57:03 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 1:57:03 They're trying, they're trying to get macho with him-

Michael Jai White 1:57:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:57:05 ... but that is not working.

Michael Jai White 1:57:07 But yeah, I'm, like, h- what would it take to develop, like-

Joe Rogan 1:57:12 This is Yuki Yoza

Michael Jai White 1:57:13 ... hands to, like, the, like, oh, your, your thighs?

Joe Rogan 1:57:17 You see how he's like, he chop- he's chopping-

Michael Jai White 1:57:20 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:57:20 ... when he's getting in tight?

Michael Jai White 1:57:21 Ooh!

Joe Rogan 1:57:21 Look at this, always.

Michael Jai White 1:57:22 Ow.

Joe Rogan 1:57:22 Look at how, how much he's utilizing a- the, like, all the karate techniques-

Michael Jai White 1:57:27 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:57:28 ... but also, in tight, just destroys guys' legs.

Michael Jai White 1:57:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:57:31 But also spinning back kicks, all that other shit. But look at his boxing is excellent, too.

Michael Jai White 1:57:37 Ooh.

Joe Rogan 1:57:37 A lot of Muay Thai stuff, dumping people, but look at the...

Michael Jai White 1:57:40 Ooh.

Joe Rogan 1:57:40 He's constantly kicking the inside of the leg. When they're committing to kicks-

Michael Jai White 1:57:45 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:57:45 ... he's cho- he's taking their legs out. This dude, I... One of my favorite guys to watch right now.

Michael Jai White 1:57:50 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:57:50 Like, look, that's a Thai guy, man. He's just destroying their legs, man.

Michael Jai White 1:57:54 Man.

Joe Rogan 1:57:55 And excellent movement.

Michael Jai White 1:57:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:57:57 And he comes out of a, a, a very high-level gym in Japan that's produced a, a lot of really... Masasaki Nori-

Michael Jai White 1:58:05 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:58:05 ... another guy who's like that, is a very similar guy who beat Tawan Chai recently. Like, these guys are j- just destroying-

Michael Jai White 1:58:13 Wow

Joe Rogan 1:58:13 ... people's legs. So they're utilizing a lot of the question mark kicks, a lot of the stuff that, that evolved in Kyokushin, but putting it into kickboxing-

Michael Jai White 1:58:22 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:58:22 ... also with the toughness that is in, you know, a, a lot of the Kyokushin fighters.

Michael Jai White 1:58:27 Yeah, I see, I see him, uh, slip into a, like a Superman.

Joe Rogan 1:58:31 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:58:31 Which everybody's gonna be susceptible for that.

Joe Rogan 1:58:34 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 1:58:34 If you got a, a kick, a leg kick that that's, that's that legitimate-

Joe Rogan 1:58:38 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 1:58:39 ... yeah, they're gonna bite on that.

Joe Rogan 1:58:40 Right.

Michael Jai White 1:58:40 And it's gonna be open for them.

Joe Rogan 1:58:41 And then he uses a Superman punch, yeah.

Michael Jai White 1:58:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:58:43 Yeah, and another very young guy.

Michael Jai White 1:58:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:58:45 So there's these people that are exploiting, like, these holes in these styles, 'cause some of these-

Michael Jai White 1:58:50 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:58:50 ... Thai guys are so hard to beat.

Michael Jai White 1:58:52 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:58:52 They have, by the time they, they're competing and they're 25 years old, they might have 150 fights.

Michael Jai White 1:58:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:58:57 So much experience, but-

Michael Jai White 1:58:59 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:59:00 ... this cat's figuring them out, man, and it's really interesting to watch.

Michael Jai White 1:59:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:59:04 You know?

Michael Jai White 1:59:04 Yeah, so I'd l- I would love to see... I wish there was, like, some kind of governing body [laughing] that would get a, all the, like, some, like, superstars or whatever, and get this guy versus this guy from-

Joe Rogan 1:59:16 Well, ONE is doing that a lot, but, you know, ONE, unfortunately, is not that popular in America.

Michael Jai White 1:59:21 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:59:21 What I love about ONE is they'll have grappling competitions, they'll have kickboxing, they'll have Muay Thai, and then they'll have MMA. They'll have them all combined on one card.

Michael Jai White 1:59:30 ONE is the one with, that, uh, Michael Jai White is on, right?

Joe Rogan 1:59:33 Well, he was on that. Michael Jai White's not with, uh, ONE anymore.

Michael Jai White 1:59:37 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 1:59:37 Michael Jai White is one of the best commentators out there.

Michael Jai White 1:59:39 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:59:40 He's excellent. Great guy, too.

Michael Jai White 1:59:42 I'll be seeing... Yeah, I'll probably be seeing him, uh, in anoth- another, like, three weeks. I'm gonna-

Joe Rogan 1:59:46 You're going to Australia?

Michael Jai White 1:59:47 Yeah, going to Australia.

Joe Rogan 1:59:48 Nice.

Michael Jai White 1:59:48 We're, we, my, my wife and I, we're going... Well, I, we did a tour. I, I do, like, seminars over there, and we, you know, meet and greets and stuff like that. We haven't done that in a while, but yeah, got some, uh, really good, some good fighters out there.

Joe Rogan 2:00:02 Oh, yeah.

Michael Jai White 2:00:02 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:00:02 John Wayne Parr.

Michael Jai White 2:00:04 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:00:04 You know, some great fighters have come out of Australia.

Michael Jai White 2:00:06 Yeah, so yeah, we're gonna have some fun out there.

Joe Rogan 2:00:08 That's awesome.

Michael Jai White 2:00:08 Yeah, th-

Joe Rogan 2:00:09 That's awesome

Michael Jai White 2:00:09 ... there and N- New Zealand.

Joe Rogan 2:00:11 Oh, yeah, another-

Michael Jai White 2:00:11 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:00:11 ... another, another hotbed.

Michael Jai White 2:00:13 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:00:13 Another hotbed for fighters. Well, it's just warrior cultures, you know?

Michael Jai White 2:00:16 Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:00:17 Warrior history in those places.

Michael Jai White 2:00:19 Did I... I don't think, I have never met an Australian that I didn't like.

Joe Rogan 2:00:22 I know, they're the nicest fucking people.

Michael Jai White 2:00:24 They're so fucking cool, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:00:25 Yeah, they're the coolest people.

Michael Jai White 2:00:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:00:26 They're friendly-

Michael Jai White 2:00:27 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:00:28 ... easygoing, you know?

Michael Jai White 2:00:29 Yeah, you, you have rites of passage still.

Joe Rogan 2:00:31 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 2:00:31 You know, places like that. You know, you... Yeah, I mean, it's, that's one thing that, uh, uh, is sad about United States, is like, we're not making men anymore.

Joe Rogan 2:00:40 Not a lot of them.

Michael Jai White 2:00:41 No, nah.

Joe Rogan 2:00:42 When they are, they stand out.

Michael Jai White 2:00:43 Yeah, you know, so that's why it's like, a lot of times in these movies, if you have an alpha male, a lot of times, that alpha ma- that American alpha male is being played by an Australian [laughing] or somebody from the-

Joe Rogan 2:00:54 [laughing] Chris Hemsworth.

Michael Jai White 2:00:55 Yeah, it's, it's, so, you know, it's like, it's very rarely a, an American.

Joe Rogan 2:01:00 No.

Michael Jai White 2:01:00 It's, we got so... It's, like, such a trip, man, 'cause-

Joe Rogan 2:01:02 Well, masculinity is demonized here-

Michael Jai White 2:01:05 Well, yeah

Joe Rogan 2:01:05 ... for some strange reason, over the last couple of decades.

Michael Jai White 2:01:08 Bro, I saw, uh, the beginning of a lot of it, 'cause, you know, like I say, I was a schoolteacher.

Joe Rogan 2:01:12 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 2:01:13 And I was right on the forefront, seeing, like, everybody gets a trophy, you know?

Joe Rogan 2:01:17 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 2:01:18 These, these kids, you know, they're, you know, they're- it's about their self-esteem, and you gotta protect that. I'm like, "Come on!" And, you know, taking away competition-

Joe Rogan 2:01:26 Yeah

Michael Jai White 2:01:27 ... that just, I saw the beginning of that shit, and it's just so, so bad. And then, then these kids don't know how to deal with loss or-

Joe Rogan 2:01:34 Right

Michael Jai White 2:01:35 ... anything, and then they end up shooting a classroom.

Joe Rogan 2:01:37 Right.

Michael Jai White 2:01:37 You know? It's, it's, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:01:39 Yeah, dealing with loss is one of the most important lessons you could ever learn. If you wanna get better, lose.

Michael Jai White 2:01:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:01:45 Psh, losing is the best medicine.

Michael Jai White 2:01:47 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:01:47 Because you lose, you go, "I don't ever wanna feel that again."

Michael Jai White 2:01:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 2:01:50 And then you start thinking about all the things that you cut corners on, all the things that you didn't do. What can I do differently to make sure that never happens again-

Michael Jai White 2:01:58 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:01:58 ... I never feel that feeling? Or you quit.

Michael Jai White 2:02:00 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:02:00 Those are the two options.

Michael Jai White 2:02:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:02:01 Either you get way better, or you quit.

Michael Jai White 2:02:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:02:03 But winning, sometimes, you don't learn. You know, you go, "Well, I'm doing the right thing. I'm winning-

Michael Jai White 2:02:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:02:08 ... I'm getting better. I'm developing confidence." That's good, but man, sometimes a loss is the best medicine.

Michael Jai White 2:02:13 Yeah, man, I, I realized something. When I was a... You know, I, I, I was, I was born with some gifts, okay? Uh, I did... And one thing that got me into college is decathlon.... I, a- out of, as a fluke, I jumped into a, a race w- against one of the, the, the, uh, fastest guys on the track team and beat him, right? And that was just a fluke, and the coach saw that. The track coach saw that and was like: "Oh, my God, you're fucking run- running for the school!" And this and I was like, "Oh, okay." I like, I was just like, uh... I didn't have anybody, any kind of adult that took a liking to me like that. And next thing you know, I'm on the track team. And I, and I started... I mean, I was really good, and then I wound up going to college because of that. And incidentally, that's the stuff that really kind of taught me, uh, to kind of, uh, evolve my martial arts. Because nowhere is there, um, a benefit of, like, f- cutting off fractions of seconds in movement like track.

Joe Rogan 2:03:24 Mm.

Michael Jai White 2:03:24 Like, like when I'm doing the shot put, well, a lot of times I was competing against people that were ginormous, and all they had to do is stick their arm out, and their arc was gonna be better than mine. Well, I had to generate enough power to go at a 45-degree angle and a- and inertia and all that to get past them. And with running, of course, if you shoot the gun off, ev- all your motion has to go forward. If you go backward, you're gonna be a step behind everybody. So as far as efficiency of motion, I... All the things I had to do with track, I started applying in, in fighting.

Joe Rogan 2:04:04 Mm.

Michael Jai White 2:04:05 And that's what kind of gave me cheat codes into things, to where being super efficient really helped, right? And so one thing would, like, kind of help the other, but like, yeah, a, a lot of... And my, my, my whole track thing was a great benefit, but I did learn that I was kind of, in a way, like the Bo Jacksons or the Herschel Walkers. I was gifted. And so when I would fight, I was, you know, I was a big guy that was fast, and it didn't... You know, that was kind of rare. So fighting was easy to me. But I learned that when I was as, the, the celebrated fighter, that was less of a good martial artist, because then I kind of would kind of flake off other things. Like, I wasn't-- I didn't try as hard as other people. And that's another thing, I don't know if Khabib really said [chuckles] but it was a thing that he said about those gifted people. A lot of people who are gifted were not the best fighters.

Joe Rogan 2:05:17 Yeah, that is a quote from him.

Michael Jai White 2:05:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:05:19 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 2:05:19 Exact- yeah, and, and I-

Joe Rogan 2:05:20 Yeah

Michael Jai White 2:05:20 ... I took that, you know, that, that same thing, 'cause I realized, dude, you're, you're, you're, you're doing it wrong. You're... I mean, my philosophy was like, uh, I feel I, I adapted the philosophy of, okay, say, um, this kid, Sean, is 140 pounds, and there's me, and it takes me 1,000 kicks to become fatigued, and it takes him 100 kicks to f- become fatigued. And he pushes to 120, and I push to 1,001. Who's the better martial artist? He is, 'cause he's pushed into his comfort zone. He's pushing himself further. What if he one day gets to 1,000? For, for him to go from 100 to 1,000, that's gonna be a quality 900 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 2:06:09 Mm.

Michael Jai White 2:06:09 ... that I don't have.

Joe Rogan 2:06:11 Right.

Michael Jai White 2:06:11 Me being the gifted one-

Joe Rogan 2:06:13 Right

Michael Jai White 2:06:14 ... I'm looking at it and using the comparative method, saying, well, you know, you know... I mean, at the end of the year, I used to kick a basketball around. You know, I was, I had that ability. But when I started thinking about, well, what I... Comparing myself to other people, that was a wrong thing. So I said, "No, I'm gonna be like Sean. I wanna train to my ability, not in comparison to someone else." Uh, and that really taught me something as far as, like, a- again, why I put myself through these things and the benefit of it, by really, like, w- what the martial arts really teaches is, you know, and the fact that, yeah, I had these gifts, but if I, if I use those gifts as a crutch, I'm limiting what I can be.

Joe Rogan 2:07:07 Right, you're limiting your potential.

Michael Jai White 2:07:09 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 2:07:09 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 2:07:10 And so I was-

Joe Rogan 2:07:10 And oftentimes, it's too easy for the gifted guys.

Michael Jai White 2:07:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:07:14 And so they kind of slack off.

Michael Jai White 2:07:16 Right, yeah. So yeah, that, that's, that's w- and I realized that's what I was doing at one point.

Joe Rogan 2:07:20 They also are not as comfortable with struggle.

Michael Jai White 2:07:23 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 2:07:24 And co- being comfortable with struggle is a very important part of growth.

Michael Jai White 2:07:27 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:27 And-

Michael Jai White 2:07:28 Yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a mixed message because we start to, uh, admire the, the freak sometimes.

Joe Rogan 2:07:37 Mm-hmm.

Michael Jai White 2:07:38 Uh, we, w- as, as men, we celebrate the pugilist a lot, and that's kind of a thing that where it came full circle to where, okay, yeah, I'm able to do these things, but is that really me? Is that, is that the limit of what I can be? A- and by, uh, having someone else go, "Oh, well, you, you can do this or that," that's kind of a... [exhales] That's not really the, the, the, the crux of it.

Joe Rogan 2:08:07 Right.

Michael Jai White 2:08:07 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 2:08:08 Right.

Michael Jai White 2:08:08 And, and it's, and, and it's really about, like... Yeah, there's gonna be people that's gonna praise what you can do physically, but is that-- but I realized there was a point where that was kind of retarding where, where I could be mentally and what I can really become.

Joe Rogan 2:08:27 ... You also have a responsibility-

Michael Jai White 2:08:28 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:08:28 ... to those gifts.

Michael Jai White 2:08:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:08:30 Right? Because if you're gifted athletically, you have a responsibility of achieving the full potential, because you've been given this thing-

Michael Jai White 2:08:38 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:08:38 ... by genetics, by life, by God-

Michael Jai White 2:08:40 Mm

Joe Rogan 2:08:40 ... this thing where you are faster, you move quicker-

Michael Jai White 2:08:43 Mm

Joe Rogan 2:08:43 ... you have more explosive power. But are you going to harness that gift-

Michael Jai White 2:08:48 Mm

Joe Rogan 2:08:48 ... and allow it to reach its full potential?

Michael Jai White 2:08:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 2:08:50 And when you do that, then you get a Mike Tyson.

Michael Jai White 2:08:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:08:53 When you do that, then you get a Michael Jordan.

Michael Jai White 2:08:54 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:08:55 You do that, then you get an elite of the elite.

Michael Jai White 2:08:57 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:08:57 You get what David Goggins always like to call, "Uncommon amongst uncommon men."

Michael Jai White 2:09:02 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 2:09:03 And that's, that's the real hard thing to do, because so many of these, like, really gifted guys in the gym, they always kind of peter off and disappear.

Michael Jai White 2:09:12 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:09:12 And, and when they're in a fight where they fight another gifted guy-

Michael Jai White 2:09:15 Mm

Joe Rogan 2:09:15 ... that maybe trained a little harder than them, and maybe he's got a little bit more experience, they realize, like, "Man, I don't wanna struggle like that."

Michael Jai White 2:09:21 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:09:21 "I don't like that."

Michael Jai White 2:09:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:09:22 "I don't like that feeling. I like beating up guys in the gym that are below me."

Michael Jai White 2:09:26 Yeah, and then you, you, you gotta deal with that person in the mirror.

Joe Rogan 2:09:29 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Michael Jai White 2:09:30 And that's hard.

Joe Rogan 2:09:30 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 2:09:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:09:31 It's hard for guys-

Michael Jai White 2:09:32 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:09:32 ... when they're the hammer their whole life, and then one day they're the nail.

Michael Jai White 2:09:35 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:09:35 And you see guys that are, like, really elite, that are dominating, and then one day they get fucked up, and then you never see them again.

Michael Jai White 2:09:42 Mm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:09:43 It's oftentimes. But then you'll see the guy who, like, gets fucked up a bunch of times and keeps showing up-

Michael Jai White 2:09:48 Okay

Joe Rogan 2:09:48 ... and keeps showing up, and keeps learning. And then you realize, like, "Oh, this guy is now elite."

Michael Jai White 2:09:52 Yeah, and those are the true heroes to me.

Joe Rogan 2:09:54 Right.

Michael Jai White 2:09:55 You know?

Joe Rogan 2:09:55 Right. Me, too.

Michael Jai White 2:09:56 I don't... You know, there's people I don't want... You know, sometimes you get in, uh, get, uh, in trouble pointing out people. Like, like, I don't wanna say somebody like Izzy or whatever, [chuckles] but, but, like, you see the, the, the people who are used to having that ability over other people-

Joe Rogan 2:10:12 Mm-hmm

Michael Jai White 2:10:12 ... and when it gets hard.

Joe Rogan 2:10:13 Right.

Michael Jai White 2:10:14 Right? And then it's like, um, even sometimes there's a, there's a talk about even Tyson. And, and, you know, as just people or, or just, um, spectators, when you go, "Oh, man, there's this guy, this guy's so gifted." Now, uh, some of the knock has been that when it became hard, you hadn't seen him dig down and overcome-

Joe Rogan 2:10:40 Right

Michael Jai White 2:10:40 ... that thing.

Joe Rogan 2:10:41 Right, right.

Michael Jai White 2:10:42 You know, 'cause w- a lot of times when it got hard, it was like he just, you know, kind of tapped out.

Joe Rogan 2:10:47 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 2:10:48 And so that's something that, you know, not to disparage him, but it's just as, you know, people are looking at life, we, we look at, you know, we, we look at those things, and we can take a lot of meaning from that, and, and apply that and say, "Oh, wow, it's..." I mean, that's on him to, to say, "Oh, was that the case?" Uh, you know, or-

Joe Rogan 2:11:08 I think what-

Michael Jai White 2:11:08 ... or is it a, is something that, um... I don't know.

Joe Rogan 2:11:12 With, I think with Mike, it's a very sp- special case, because I think he had the elite coaching in the beginning with Cus D'Amato-

Michael Jai White 2:11:20 Mm

Joe Rogan 2:11:20 ... in training. And then when Cus died, he was kind of left with all this amazing ability that he had developed when he was young, but not with the elite coaching. Like, so if Mike had left, when Cus D'Amato died, if he had then went to Emanuel Steward or if he had then-

Michael Jai White 2:11:40 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:11:40 You know what I'm saying? If he had-

Michael Jai White 2:11:41 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 2:11:42 ... then went to an elite boxing coach and had someone analyze his sty- and someone he really respected-

Michael Jai White 2:11:48 Respected, yes, absolutely

Joe Rogan 2:11:49 ... then he could still maintain that same level of discipline when he was the 21-year-old dominating the world.

Michael Jai White 2:11:55 Oh, my God, but he had so much pressure on him. Of course, I-

Joe Rogan 2:11:58 So much

Michael Jai White 2:11:58 ... because, you know, I had to play him-

Joe Rogan 2:12:00 Yeah, right

Michael Jai White 2:12:00 ... so I had to study everything he did. And it's interesting because, oh, my God, like, he- I always viewed him as somebody who was always looking for a father figure.

Joe Rogan 2:12:09 Yes.

Michael Jai White 2:12:10 And I would study him, and, you know, with Cus D'Amato, he would dress like Cus D'Amato. Here's a gu- a young Black guy from [chuckles] Brooklyn with suspenders.

Joe Rogan 2:12:19 Right. [laughing]

Michael Jai White 2:12:21 You know, and a, and a cavi hat, like, you know-

Joe Rogan 2:12:24 Yeah.

Michael Jai White 2:12:24 And then when Cus D'Amato was gone, he was around Kevin Rooney, and Kevin Rooney had this really fast way of talking, and it seemed like he adapted that. And when he was with, uh, with, um, uh, uh, shoot-

Joe Rogan 2:12:39 Wallwell?

Michael Jai White 2:12:40 No, no, um, uh, shoot, why, why am I blanking? The, the other trai- the other manager, um-

Joe Rogan 2:12:47 Jim Jacobs?