EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,043 words- 0:02 – 2:44
Setting the stage: From mainstream vaccine trust to skepticism after COVID
- JRJoe Rogan
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.
- SPSpeaker
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat rock music]
- JRJoe Rogan
So you had a pile of notes, and then you just folded them up. Like did you commit them to memory?
- ASAaron Siri
No, just these two things. I have the links I sent you guys, and then-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay
- ASAaron Siri
... and just some stuff there, just-
- JRJoe Rogan
I just saw the pieces-
- ASAaron Siri
... just in case
- JRJoe Rogan
... of paper that you folded. I was like, "What's in there?"
- ASAaron Siri
It's just... That's just-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] How did... First of all, I wanna, I wanna talk you through, like when you were a younger man, before you had looked into this, what was your opinions on medical science? What was your opinions on vaccines? Were you skeptical, or did you just kind of assume that everything that we're told is exactly how it is, and the experts have only the best interests of human beings in mind and not, not money?
- ASAaron Siri
I had what you would effectively call the mainstream view.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ASAaron Siri
Vaccines saved humanity.
- JRJoe Rogan
Me too.
- ASAaron Siri
We'd all be dead without them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yep. [laughs]
- ASAaron Siri
Um, you know, they are the, uh, um, there was the Bible given to, to Moses at Sinai, and then there were vaccines.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ASAaron Siri
That's basically, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's anybody that didn't consider themselves a fool. You know? If y- you would c- you would have to be a fool, like a real fool-
- ASAaron Siri
Right
- JRJoe Rogan
... to ignore all this medical science, which is the reason why there's so many people alive today that would've died. And a lot of that's true, with penicillin, antibiotics. There's a lot of stuff that has saved a lot of people's lives. Um, b- but the vaccine one, until this COVID epidemic, I would've never questioned it. I mocked anti-vaxxers. I was like, "These people are silly. Don't they know all the good things that vaccines have done?" And the, just the blatant propaganda that we were force-fed, like one of those ducks they're trying to make foie gras with-
- ASAaron Siri
Mm-hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... th- it just made me stop and pause and go, "Is the whole thing like this? Is this whole thing just a dirty money-laundering operation?" Because it kind of seems like that's at least part of the reason why they were telling people to get boosted when they knew it wasn't working, and, and telling young people that didn't need it to... They wanted to make a lot of money. That's the only reason why you would do any of those things, after a certain amount of information is out. And so it just made me stop and think about the whole thing, and go, "Well, wh- why would I assume that this is the one area where pharmaceutical drug companies, doctor- everybody's been totally honest in this one area," when it's like a religious thing i- if you question it. And one of... that's the... Well, I love the title of your book.
- ASAaron Siri
Yes. Vaccines Amen: The Religion of Vaccines.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. You... It's, that's what it is.
- ASAaron Siri
It-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a religion for secular, intelligent people with a higher education. [laughs]
- 2:44 – 7:03
Why vaccines are treated differently: The 1986 immunity framework
- ASAaron Siri
And it causes incredible cognitive dissonance for anybody out there to come to the conclusion that the CDC, and the FDA, and our public health authorities, and what the entire medical establishment has been telling you may not be accurate about vaccines. Because like what you just said, the claim that you're a flat Earther, you're an anti-vaxxer-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- ASAaron Siri
... deserves, and not, they're used as a way to say, "You are really out there and dumb," right?
- JRJoe Rogan
They, they're completely equal in their impact.
- ASAaron Siri
And so it takes incredible cognitive dissonance to r- say there are real problems with vaccines, but vaccines really sit in their own little universe. They're unlike any other medical product. They're not like penicillin. They're not like any other drugs. They're not like any other product out there, any other product in this room, anything out there, for one major reason. Every other product that exists, I can sue the company, I can hold them accountable if that product injures or kills you or your child on the basis that product could've been safer. The only product, and I mean this literally, the only product in America where you cannot sue to say, "Had you made that product safer, my child wouldn't be dead. My child wouldn't be seriously injured. They wouldn't have a neurological disorder. They wouldn't have immunological disorder. They wouldn't have a nervous system disorder. They wouldn't have a cardiac, cardiac issue," are childhood vaccines and child vaccines used by adults. It's the only one, and that's because of a law called the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986. It gave pharma companies that incredibly special immunity. Now, just to put that into context, okay? And, and I'll, and I'll tie this back in a second as to how we ended up with this notion of, uh, th- this belief, religion in vaccines, because, you know, give an industry 40 years of unopposed ability to influence, they're gonna get pretty dang far, and they did with vaccines. And so, um, you know, uh, a lot of industries face a crossroads where their products are causing more harm than good. Gas tanks used to explode. What did they do? Made a better gas tank, right? Building materials had asbestos. Caused cancer. What do they do? They make better building materials, right? Do they give them immunity? No, of course not. But in the instance of vaccines, leading up to 1986, there were only three routine vaccines. That's it. That's all there was. A child following the CDC schedule in 1986 got three injections on or before their first birth- birthday, okay? Those three products were causing so much harm and injury that every manufacturer of them s- went out of business, and that was the MMR vaccine, the DTP, and the OPV vaccine. Every single one, f- from six down to one, or for the pertussis vaccine, six down to one, for measles, about three down to one for polio.And with one company left for each, instead of forcing them to do what every other industry has to do, like I said, make better building materials without asbestos, make better cars that don't explode, go down the chain of different products out there, Congress did something completely unique. It said, "You know what? We're just going to give you immunity. We're going to make it so that no company, excuse me, no individual, no parent, no child can sue you for the injuries and deaths caused by your vaccine products." That is what the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 did, and not only for those three products, but for any other childhood vaccine thereafter. And what that effectively has done is given 40 years for the industry to promote their products with no pushback. When you read about a problem with a car, where are you reading about it from? Usually a class action lawsuit in the paper, right? You're not going to read about that in vaccines typically. And because of that, you ended up where we are. Anyways, there's a lot more detail to that, but I'll stop there for now.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, please keep going.
- 7:03 – 17:02
Economic incentives, safety testing, and the Vioxx/Pinto analogies
- ASAaron Siri
Well, I, I, I mean, when you think about, um, what makes products safer, right? Because I've got a, I've got a law firm with over 100 in- individuals. I'm the managing partner of the firm. Half my firm does all types of plaintiff-side class actions. We can hold companies accountable for almost anything. Your data, we do hundreds of data breach cases, genetic privacy cases, biometric privacy cases. We do all kinds, all types of, of, of lawsuits like that nature, by the way, and New York Times loves those lawsuits, by the way. [chuckles] That stuff nobody attacks me for, okay? Oh, making, making my privacy better? Oh, protecting me from cars that explode? Oh, thank you. Make vaccines safer? You want to kill everybody. Okay. Than any of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's where, that, but that's where it's really weird.
- ASAaron Siri
But well, he, he, he, here's, here's where I think I, I can make, I'm hoping I can make it make sense without causing cognitive dissonance. So going back to how we make products safer in America or anywhere, okay? It's not the government. Governments don't make products safer. Look at extremely authoritarian regimes where there was very little m- free market, like the former USSR. You think products were safe? No. What makes products safe? It's the economic self-interest of the company. It's the economic interest of the company to make the product safer. Why? You probably own stock, right? And where do you want your stock to go, up or down? How do you want it to go? You want it to go up or you want it to go down? Where do you want it to go?
- JRJoe Rogan
Up.
- ASAaron Siri
You want it to go up. Okay. So do all the investors.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
So does everybody who owns that stock. So does Wall Street. So does the CEO. So does the board. So does everybody, the people who own the stock, everybody involved, all the employees that have stock options, including usually the major ones, everybody wants it to go up. If you lose money, it doesn't go up. So normally, the interest to assure a product is safer is aligned with the profit motive, because if your product causes injury and harm, then you're going to lose money. So you'll want to know typically, you have an economic self-interest as a corporation to know, not because you're altruistic, not because you're moral, not because you're ethical, just because you have that economic self-interest to assure the product is safe before you go to market and after you go to market, okay? And that exists for every product in America with effectively one exception, vaccines. That's really it. Now, I'm going to show you one result of that in practice, okay? Uh, uh, uh, when you think of drugs, and, and this will help, I think, tie into what you were saying about what happened with COVID. Um, most drugs are licensed based on multi-year placebo-controlled trials. Most of them. Why? Because the FDA requires it? [chuckles] Because the FDA's so great? No. Nothing to do with the FDA. It's because the company wants to know whether the drug is safe or not before it goes to market, because you know what happens to the drug that they put out that's going to make forty billion in revenue or twenty billion, but causes 100 billion in harm? They end up f- upside down. So they want to know, to a reasonable degree, how safe the drug is before it goes to market. In an attempt not to cherry-pick, as I did in my book, I found an article that listed the top four selling profitable drugs by Pfizer as of like 2000, 2021 or something, 2019, okay? And i- if you look at those four most profitable drugs, I, as I put in my book, each one has two to seven years of follow-up in the clinical trial that was relied upon to license that drug against a placebo control group, just to make sure everybody... I'm sure everybody knows what that means, but that just means a group that gets something inert. So this way, you, you give the group the experimental drug, you give a group the placebo, something inert, you track them for multiple years, and then you compare all the outcomes, cardiovascular outcomes, neurological outcomes, immuno- go down the list, and cancer rates, and you see the difference. You get a real actual sense of the safety between those two, uh, b- uh, for that product. In contrast, for most childhood vaccines, instead of years, it's often days or weeks of safety review in the clinical trial relied upon to license them. Not a single, and I know that, uh, s- folks contest this all the time, but it's in the FDA literature, not a single routine injected childhood vaccine was licensed based on a placebo-controlled trial, save for the COVID vaccine, by the way, for children. It's the only one. Not a single one, okay? Um, and norWas the vaccine sometimes uses the control itself licensed based on a placebo-controlled trial, nor anywhere down that chain. Chapter 10 of my book, I go through every vaccine, I go through, I have it all cited to the FDA licensure documents. You can listen to the talking heads or you can rely on the primary sources from the FDA, which is why I call my book Vaccines Amen, because there's what they tell you, and then there's what the actual evidence shows, right? So, um, that gives you an example at the outcome of not having an economic self-interest. With drugs, they have it, so they want to know the safety.
- JRJoe Rogan
Can I, um-
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
challenge you on that?
- ASAaron Siri
Please.
- JRJoe Rogan
What about Vioxx? Like the Vioxx people knew that there, there was, one of the things that was revealed during the trial is that they knew that there was gonna be issues. They, the, I think the quote was, "We th- we still think we'll do well." And that was one of the damning aspects of the email, uh, disclosure, because you got a chance to see how these guys talk about this drug that they're about to release. I think they wound up paying a percentage of the amount of money they made from the drug, but they w- made way more from the drug than they did the fine.
- ASAaron Siri
No, I, I appreciate that challenge, and it, it's why I said when I, I was saying that they do the analysis of whether they're going to have 100 billion in loss or fif- 40 billion in revenue. I'm not saying they won't put out a drug that causes harm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're saying it can't cause too much harm.
- ASAaron Siri
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- ASAaron Siri
They can't, they don't want to end up upside down. And remember, the whole reason a drug is licensed is because it can cause harm.
- JRJoe Rogan
The crazy thing about the Vioxx one is I think it killed somewhere north of 50,000 people, and they still made profit off of it, which is kind of bananas. They pulled it and, and made billions in profit. This is the m- the darker aspect of this. If you were talking about companies that never did anything wrong and had the highest moral and ethical standards, and they're the ones, because it's not about money, it's about saving people's health, and it's about public safety, and we gotta make sure that we do this right. We gotta make sure we squash all the disinformation. But that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about these companies that have been fined billions, billions of dollars in criminal fines for fraud, for all kinds of shit. These are the people. And the f- the idea that they wouldn't lie about vaccines, like this is the one thing, at, they're gonna tell you the truth. Ruthless capitalists attached to money and drugs, this is the one thing they're gonna 100% tell you the truth about. That seems kind of kooky. That's a, that's a, that's a hard sell for anybody [chuckles] who's not ideologically captured. That's a hard sell.
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah, but I don't, I don't think you need to go down the road that there's some kind of evil nefariousness there.
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- ASAaron Siri
It's pure-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's not what I'm saying
- ASAaron Siri
... it's, it's a broken economic-
- JRJoe Rogan
Human nature, yes
- ASAaron Siri
... and regulatory system from my perspective.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
It's just a completely broken econ- To your point about Vioxx, right? So in Vioxx, it caused incredible amount of harm, but they still decided that the benefits raised the risk. Do you, do you know the story about the, the, the cars that used to explode? It's the classic case we learned in law school, and the, the gas tank and, and, um, these, you know, these cars-
- JRJoe Rogan
Was it a Pinto?
- ASAaron Siri
It was the Pintos, that's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 17:02 – 22:55
Steel-manning the pro-immunity case and rebutting it
- JRJoe Rogan
If you were gonna steel me on the argument against that-
- ASAaron Siri
Yes
- JRJoe Rogan
... wouldn't you say, "Look, these are, we can't have frivolous lawsuits against these people that are providing us the most important medication that's available to humans. The, the whole reason why we survived smallpox and polio and all these different things, it's these vaccines. Without them, we'd all be dead." This episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. I have used their knives for years. They are absolutely fantastic. The company was founded by one of the most experienced master bladesmiths in the world, my friend Josh Smith. Uh, he has been making knives sinceHe was a kid. He, he's been making knives for 30 years. He made his first hunting knife when he was 11 years old and became a master bladesmith at 19. This man loves knives, the construction of knives. They are absolutely next level. Everything is made right here in the USA in Montana, and these knives are designed, tested, and built by hunters. They come insanely sharp out of the box and are crazy easy to sharpen. Mon- Montana Knife Company is a young company working hard to keep up with demand because these knives sell out in minutes. If you want one, head over to montanaknifecompany.com to see what's available now. Sign up for their email newsletter so you know when they restock, and get in on their SMS notifications for special knife drops. My personal favorite blade is the Speed Goat 2.0. I use it all the time. It's an amazing knife. Montana Knife Company, working knives for working people.
- ASAaron Siri
Uh, w- uh, let's just assume that the last part of what you said [laughs] is true, which we know it's not. But w-with that said-
- JRJoe Rogan
Just Steel Manning it.
- ASAaron Siri
Let's Steel Manning it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ASAaron Siri
Easy response, okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- ASAaron Siri
[clears throat] Drugs, drugs that are for very small populations, meaning not a lot of market, not a lot of sales, that cause incredible side effects can survive on the market profitably. Think about that for a second. Why? Okay, here's why. It's a little bit of le- legal stuff, but it's not that hard. It's not that bad, okay? The primary claim you would typically bring against a product is the claim that it could've been made safer. It's called a design defect claim. It's a claim to where I say, "Hey, had you put in a two-cent stopper on that gas tank, it wouldn't have exploded. If you'd have put in a one penny plastic shield on that saw, I'd have my finger." Okay? Design defect claim, the claim you could've made a product safer. It is the primary claim you would bring for a product, okay? Injury claim. So how do you protect against it? You make the product as technologically safe as possible, right? So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- ASAaron Siri
... if you have a drug that causes incredible side effects that we just talked about, make the drug as safe as possible. Make sure the, there are no contaminants, make sure that you use the best possible ingredients, make sure the combination, right, the, the, the safest adjuvant, go down the road. That's, that's number one. Number two, the second most, uh, the, the second way y-y-you, you hold them accountable is you bring a claim called a failure to warn claim. I failed to warn you about the harm that the drug could've caused, okay? And so what do you have to do there to protect yourself? The company has to disclose all the potential harms. If it has it right there on the package insert and you get it and it says, "Hey, it can cause this, this, this, this," you were told. You chose to still take the product. They made it as safe as technologically feasible. They disclosed the risks, and that is how companies typically limit their liability with medical products, with drug products, okay? Why can't they do that with vaccines? Why can't they just make them as safe as technologically feasible, can't sue them for design defect, and disclose all the actual risks in the package insert, okay? The logical conclusion is... And, uh, and one other point that, and I'll, and then I'll, I'll-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay
- ASAaron Siri
... I'll respond to your Steel Man, okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- ASAaron Siri
And it's this, all right? It's been 40 years for some of these vaccines. Hep B vaccine, for example, licensed in '86 and '89, the two standalones. It's been 40 years. You're telling me they still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity? You're giving it to millions of kids a year. You're making billions of dollars on the sales of this product, and you still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity? Please.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, okay, if I was a, a silly person-
- ASAaron Siri
Okay
- JRJoe Rogan
... I would probably say these vaccines are more important than any medication that's ever existed because they are the reason why we are here, 'cause that's how we-
- ASAaron Siri
Okay
- JRJoe Rogan
... survived smallpox and polio and the measles and everything else. And without them, we would have perished. Uh, we would have never achieved the technological states that we're at because we wouldn't have been healthy. We would've gone through mass plagues.
- ASAaron Siri
Okay, I'll, I'll respond to that.
- JRJoe Rogan
So w-
- ASAaron Siri
Easy response
- JRJoe Rogan
... so, and, and because of that, it's just important that-
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... they stay a- they stay in business.
- ASAaron Siri
All r- Well, a few things first of all.
- JRJoe Rogan
And we trust the science.
- ASAaron Siri
Okay.
- 22:55 – 33:23
Measles as a case study: mortality history, culture, and “gaslighting” claims
- ASAaron Siri
On the deaths point, that is one of the myths. That is one of the mythologies around vaccines that has developed over time, this notion that everybody in America would die without vaccines. Um, in chapter seven of my book, and I lay it out for every single disease, and what I do there is I say, "Okay, how many deaths were there in America the year before the vaccine was first introduced or widely, or in, or, or widely used or so forth," okay? A- in any d- real degree. And what you find is, if you go down the list, there were typically dozens to hundreds, maybe 1,000 or so deaths from each disease for which we vaccinate. The further back in time you go, the larger the, the, the number, but in that dozens to 1,000 or so deaths, okay? For example, measles, the dreaded measles that they say everybody will die from.No measles vaccine, we're all gonna die, right? That is the impression they give you. You have any idea how many people died of measles in the years before there was a measles vaccine in the United States? I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
How many?
- ASAaron Siri
About 400 a year.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's it?
- ASAaron Siri
That's it. 400 a year-
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa
- ASAaron Siri
... died in the United States at a time when everybody had measles, which comes out to about one in 450,000 Americans dying of measles. That's in the CDC. Anybody listening to this who's like, "Come on, that's not true," CDC mortality documents on the CDC website, cited in my book, 400.
- JRJoe Rogan
And don't about 50,000 people every year die from the flu?
- ASAaron Siri
Well, that statistic is, uh, i- uh, um, includes bacterial, uh, deaths that they say are potentially the result from having influenza. But-
- JRJoe Rogan
So your immune system gets weakened and then something else hits you?
- ASAaron Siri
Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
And that kills you? Is that the idea behind it?
- ASAaron Siri
It, i- th- well, that's just the way they gather the data-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay
- ASAaron Siri
... is the way I'll put it. But, uh, um, with influenza... Well, let me fini- let me s- if I can finish up with the measles.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah.
- ASAaron Siri
'Cause I think this is important on the measles one, and I can deal with influenza e- as well. But on the measles one, just to really, 'cause you're saying, "Well, everybody would die without these," I don't think people think of influenza, by the way. They think of measles.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
They think of, uh, those diseases.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
I don't ever hear anybody say to me, "Well, everybody will die of influenza without influenza vaccines." Everybody, it's available, everybody can get it. Uh, the mortality hasn't changed much. In fact, if you look at the mortality of influenza before influenza vaccines were widespread, we're not doing that great. Okay, anyway, putting that aside for a moment.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not only that, isn't there data that shows that if you get it, you're more likely to get other colds?
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah, I have a whole, um, um, giant footnote in my, uh, book about this, and I, I've actually tweeted this out, and did a Substack about this, a whole series of articles, studies that show that those that have had the influenza vaccines, maybe, these studies often reflect, have around the same rate of influenza, maybe they have less respiratory influenza infections, but they, many studies show they have multiple times the rate of other respiratory infections. So good job. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- ASAaron Siri
Maybe you've reduced your risk of influenza by this much, but you've increased your risk of another different respiratory disease by that much.
- JRJoe Rogan
How much is it? The, how much is the increase?
- ASAaron Siri
Depends on the study. Some studies show four times the risk, some studies show three times the risk. Yeah. I mean, literally three-
- JRJoe Rogan
Four times?
- ASAaron Siri
... four. I mean, huge percentages, so, and they're statistically significant in these studies. And so, you know, when you're looking at a... Now, these are all retrospective epidemiological studies. And, but when you do a retrospective epi study, which means you take existing data and then you study it, versus saying, "Okay, we're gonna do a study and follow people going forward," okay? Um, if you find like a 1.3 time, which means 30% increased risk, like that, that's a publishable finding. This is 300, 400% increased risk, yes, in many of these studies. It's inconvenient data, so obviously it's not talked about.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Um, so 400 people is not a whole lot. I'm, I'm sure... I mean, it's sad when 400 people die, but, um, it's also one of those diseases that, um, when you're a child, it's much more survivable, right? Than adult. Adult, it's rough, isn't it?
- 33:23 – 37:20
Unexpected epidemiology: childhood infections and later-life health outcomes
- ASAaron Siri
cognitive dissonance for some, but studies that have looked at those that have had measles versus those that don't find that those that have had measles have a statistically significant greater, uh, reduction in, uh, deaths from cardiovascular disease and various cancers. So I'll give you an example. There's a twenty-year, twenty-two-year prospective study in Japan done by, funded by the government of Japan and major universities that tracked a hundred thousand people in Japan for twenty-two years, and it found that those that had measles and mumps had a twenty percent statistically significant decline in deaths from cardiovascular disease. Think about that for a second. Just think about that. About eight hundred thousand Americans die of cardiovascular disease. If eliminating measles and mumps has increased cardiovascular deaths in the United States by even one percent, on a life years lost basis, you are still way upside down on your public health benefit by eliminating measles.
- JRJoe Rogan
Can I ask you what the speculation is at how that could be? Why, why would measles and mumps infection at a early age improve your r- your health cardiovascularly?
- ASAaron Siri
Why would it also, those that have not had measles have a sixty-six percent increased rate of Hodgkin-- non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and two hundred and sixty-six percent increased rate of Hodgkin's lymphoma, which kills twenty thousand people a year. Why would women that have had measles have fifty percent less ovarian cancer, which kills a lot of women every year? Um, w- what is it about it? Maybe, and here's the thing, um, I'm, you know, uh, and, and you can have evolutionary biologists talk about this as well, you've had some on. Think about it this way. Pathogens have come and gone throughout the ages, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
The, this one didn't. Measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, they didn't. It could be, maybe, I'm not saying it is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- ASAaron Siri
... I'm just saying this is what the data appears to reflect, what I just told you about with cardiovascular disease and cancer, they're all in PubMed. They're all PubMed studies, they're all in the published literature, and they're all consistent having the findings that I just described, okay? I'm, I'm just a lawyer. I'm just repeating to you what the data reflects. Um, it could be that having those febrile childhood infections conferred a survival advantage overall, and it could be the reason they never actually went away over time, became less obviously pathogenic.
- JRJoe Rogan
So it has like a hormetic effect and it makes you physically stronger somehow or another. It makes your, uh, immune system stronger, your cardiovas- like a, a stress test.That, I mean, it's not outside the realm of possibility, right? I mean, if lift- lifting weights makes you stronger, and, you know, studying makes you smarter, wouldn't it ma- make sense that some form of infection that you recover from will make you more resilient? It does make sense. Um, it just, like, no one wants to say to, "Hey, you should go get measles."
- ASAaron Siri
Look, theory of relativity-
- JRJoe Rogan
In this world-
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah, theory of relativity is not intuitive. Why is it as you approach a more massive object or approach the speed of se- light does time relatively slow down? I don't know if it makes sense or not. It's just what, when you put two-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- ASAaron Siri
... atomic clocks on a plane, one on the ground, one in the plane, you fly it around the Earth, they're not ticking the same, so there it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
I, it-
- JRJoe Rogan
You can't pretend that's not data
- ASAaron Siri
... the data is what it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
It doesn't have to make sense-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- ASAaron Siri
... to be true.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a good point.
- ASAaron Siri
That's just what it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a really good point.
- ASAaron Siri
And I'm just saying what the studies show. Um, very inconvenient, a lot of cognitive dissonance there, but it could very well be that our whole, this whole program, not only do we... So going back to your whole, going all the way back to your point, you're like, "Well, they'll say me- vaccines are so important, we gotta give them this immunity." No. I- in fact, quite the opposite. Our babies are so precious, are so important, we want to make sure we have the safest possible product you can have. And the way to do that is to make sure the companies have an economic interest to make sure they're as safe as possible.
- 37:20 – 41:32
Transmission vs protection: which vaccines block spread, and the measles-immunity dilemma
- JRJoe Rogan
I, I agree with you entirely, but i- if I was questioning anything, I would say, okay, if we don't have genetic immunity anymore, 'cause our parents didn't have it, 'cause our parents were vaccinated against measles, um, wouldn't it be better to keep vaccinating people rather than let a whole bunch of people with no immunity to measles get it, particularly like older people?
- ASAaron Siri
So y- uh, this is a really important point, actually.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- ASAaron Siri
I, I, I, I, agree with you in the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Because-
- ASAaron Siri
H- here's, here, well, I, I'll put it in context.
- JRJoe Rogan
Can I just stop before we get going?
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
When, in, when they mandated vaccines, or when they started giving them to people, was what? In, like, the early '60s, I believe.
- ASAaron Siri
For measles vaccines-
- JRJoe Rogan
For measles? Yeah
- ASAaron Siri
... '63.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did a lot of people resist it? Was it back then, were the hippies opting out? Were there, w- is there, like, a group that you could follow and track that never got it, never got the vaccine, while everybody else did?
- ASAaron Siri
Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
It has to be, right?
- ASAaron Siri
I'm sure there's a, a group out there you can identify. I mean, the Amish.
- JRJoe Rogan
There you go. Right.
- ASAaron Siri
So, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Perfect
- ASAaron Siri
... who we re- we represent right now, 'cause New York's trying to basically sh- kick them out of New York for not vaccinating.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's crazy.
- ASAaron Siri
We just won in, we just, um, in the US Supreme Court, uh, we were just successful in vacating the lower court decisions just a few weeks ago.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you remember when Kathy Hochul was talking about the vaccines like they're a gift from God?
- ASAaron Siri
She believes it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you, but do you remember how she was saying it?
- ASAaron Siri
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was like, in any other business, if you were running a pharmaceutical drug business, if you were running a, if you were running Chevy [laughs] and you're making a new Corvette, and you started talking about how this Corvette is a gift from God, everybody would go, "Oh, Kathy's cracked."
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, "What are you talking about? It's a bunch of engineers. We put together a great car." Like, what are you... It's a gift from God. What?
- ASAaron Siri
People don't say, "I believe in tables," or, "I believe in chairs."
- 41:32 – 43:49
Hep B for newborns, Denmark comparison, and the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program
- JRJoe Rogan
The Hep B one's-
- ASAaron Siri
... I can go into that
- JRJoe Rogan
... kinda crazy that they give that to babies. It's kinda crazy. Kinda crazy if the parent aren't intravenous drug users or, or whatever, whatever would give them Hep B, that you're, you're gonna inject a baby with a vaccine that prevents them from getting a sexually transmitted disease, and, like, a rarely sexually... You gotta be doing something rough, you know?
- ASAaron Siri
Y- yeah, Joe, you just don't understand what goes on in the NICU.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh.I mean-
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... that's it, it just seems crazy.
- ASAaron Siri
It, it is, and here, I'll give you a, a, um, another data point, which is in Denmark, okay? There is no hep B, universal hep B for kids. The only time they give hep B in Denmark is if the mother is hep B positive. So their hep B vaccination rate amongst children is, like, .1% or something to that effect. Okay? So here you go, two first-world countries, America and Denmark, universal hep B here, n- virtually zero hep B vaccine given there. The rate of hep B amongst children, not statistically significant. You know what is different between those two countries? The rate of harm from hep B vaccine. That's different. You know what a baby's never died of on the first day of life? Hepatitis B. You know what a baby has died of on the first day of life? Hepatitis B vaccine. In fact, adjudicated as such not long ago for a, for a newborn that died from a hep B vaccine, and, um, I, I said earlier you can't sue the manufacturers. You cannot. There is a little program, though, in the federal government where you can bring a claim if you're injured from a vaccine. That's what I'm talking about right now, about the baby that died of hep B.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
It's called the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. I have, like, 20 folks in my firm that do that work, and, um, you know, it's not like a regular court. You don't get an Article Three judge, Article Three of the Constitution, a federal judge. You don't get, um, any discovery as a right, which is how you prove harms. There's a $250,000 statutory cap in pain and suffering and on death, which is ridiculous. Um, and it doesn't have, you know... A- a- anyways, long story short, it's paid out about r- five billion dollars for da- for damages and so forth from vaccines over the years, but, um, um, so, so I didn't want people to get confused, like when I said, "Well, how, how did, how did this baby get adjudicated?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
It got adjudicated in this program.
- JRJoe Rogan
Got it. Got it.
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah.
- 43:49 – 55:59
Cognitive dissonance, censorship, and pandemic-era control measures
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, so when you have conversations with people and they are the way you used to be and the way I used to be-
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... where you just k- sort of j- just assumed that these, the people that are experts in their fields are doing a great job, and that's why we're alive, and you start telling them these things. Like, are you a, a real problem at a cocktail party? Like, do y- have you ever [laughs] have you ever, have you ever had a conversation that just went completely sideways and they started getting angry at you for quoting things?
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah. I-
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause that's a... It's, it's-
- ASAaron Siri
It's not a problem for me 'cause I don't have no emotions or feelings about the products. They're just products.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
They're no different for me, but a lot of folks, um, they, uh, th- there's two things. First, for some, like medical professionals, a lot of them seem to derive a lot of their self-schema almost, the, the, their value, their worth from these products. They saved humanity. How could you question that? We are the saviors.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
Right? In some respects, almost like supplanting God, right? What's the only thing that will save us during COVID? Was it God? No. Vaccines, that's the only thing. And then for others, they think that they know, okay? But they don't know intellectually. They've never looked at the primary sources, so when you challenge them with evidence, what can they draw from? The intellect? No. They draw from their emotions. They draw from their feelings, and that's why they get angry. I get that al-
- JRJoe Rogan
Of course
- ASAaron Siri
... I do get that all the, I get that all the time, but I also often get folks who are just curious and interested to listen.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I think there's more of those now than there's ever been before.
- ASAaron Siri
Abso- absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ASAaron Siri
I think COVID, in that respect, uh, forced the conversation. You had, um, millions of people who were listening to basic stuff that 10 years ago when I started doing this work, nobody talked about what is a placebo? What's a clinical trial?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
What's this stuff?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
Like, this became... Or even the idea that a vaccine can cause a harm was e- w- just that notion was totally taboo seven years ago.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
No more.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Um, I think you're entirely correct, and also credit to, to YouTube, 'cause YouTube doesn't suppress this stuff anymore, which is why I found dozens of interviews with you on YouTube. I mean, before I had a... I mean, I'd seen some of your stuff on social media, but then, you know, I've, I've watched a, a bunch of your stuff now on, on YouTube, whereas during the pandemic, everything you said, you would've got removed.
- ASAaron Siri
I was removed. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- ASAaron Siri
Everything I said was removed. I'll tell you the first thing that I ever had posted that got sa- it was on a- it was on Twitter.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, the old Twitter.
- ASAaron Siri
I... So we brought this lawsuit against the FDA to get all the documents they relied upon to license Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ASAaron Siri
They, they licensed it in 42 days, and we said, "All right, if we got 42 days, give us all the documents," right? And they wanted forever. They wanted to produce at a rate of a few hundred pages a month, which would've taken hundreds of years effectively. Got a tranche of those documents, took some of them, literally took one of the documents and posted it, and my tweet was just literally quoting from the document effectively, and that was taken down as misinformation. Pfizer's own documents submitted to the FDA.
- 55:59 – 1:17:04
Mandates, liberty, and the “optics” of government power
- ASAaron Siri
Well, when the government gets it wrong, they always, always double down because-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- ASAaron Siri
... and that's the problem with the mandates. Once they've required it, they have s- taken a position, and then to admit they're wrong, often what government ends up saying is, "Oh, well, well, we're the CDC. If we admit we're wrong about this, that's gonna hurt our ability to influence the public, and that's more important than admitting we're wrong on this or correcting course, because our legitimacy, our ability to influence the public is so important, we have to, you know, we can't admit we're wrong." That's what Bobby's doing right now on some of these things is, you know, is some of the stuff like y- the new autism page on, on the CDC website, for example, is, uh, i- is contrary to anything I've ever seen come out of the federal health authorities to date. But yes, it's, it's disturbing, and it's why government should n- no public health authority should ever be able to tell you and infringe on your rights. They should be able to recommend, recommend the law, recommend like crazy-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- ASAaron Siri
... but never do it because that is the normal course of how tyranny, dictators, bullies, thugs operate. First, they tell you what to do. You don't listen, apply a little pressure. You don't listen, then they mandate. You still don't listen, they censor you. Still, take away more of your rights. That is the normal progression throughout history, and we saw it happen in front of our eyes, which is why it's, it should be a line in the sand. Federal health authorities, state health authorities should be able to recommend and encourage, never mandate, ever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Fauci literally expressed it that way. I'm sure you've heard that recording of him. He said, "Once people d- realize they can't go to work, they'll drop their ideological bullshit-
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... and they'll get vaccinated."
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, he's, he's essentially telling them-
- ASAaron Siri
Right
- JRJoe Rogan
... you're gonna make people's life hell, and they'll do what you want them to do.
- ASAaron Siri
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not they will have free will, they will have the ability to choose. No, no, no.
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You will make them do what you want.
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah. Who wants a government that persuades you on the merits? Forget that.
- JRJoe Rogan
But imagine that that's, that is something that someone said out loud.
- ASAaron Siri
But, but, but, but that... I don't think that what Fauci was saying is anything, uh... Fauci, everything in my view that you saw during COVID is not like some giant leap, um, into some new i- territory. To me, it's just another natural step in progression from where we've gone over the last 40 years with vaccines. Uh, Fauci saying that is no different than school mandates right now-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- ASAaron Siri
... for, to get children... M- most states have, 45 states have basically checked the box exemption to, to send your kids to school. There's about five that don't. They're trying to eliminate exemptions, right? Um, clearly they're able to persuade most parents on the merits, but yet they, they can't take it. They can't take that a 2, 3, 4% just will not take these products, and I, and I, you know... And I'll tell you, by the way, most of these folks are. They're the folks who really need the exemptions because, um, you know, most people who don't choose to take childhood vaccines, they don't typically just wake up and decide to do that for fun. Not many people wake up one day and go, "You know what I'm gonna do today? Eh, I'm gonna take a socially ostracizing position that might get my kids kicked out of school, me thrown out of my job, my friends call me an anti-this, an anti-that," um, you know, uh, you name it, all the horribles that come with-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- ASAaron Siri
... not vaccinating. No. Most people don't vaccinate, don't vaccinate because they've had a very, very personal or, or, or, or negative experience with these products, they or one of their kids or one of their family members, or they've learned stuff they cannot unlearn about them, okay? They have usually a very good reason not to. And yet, um, as you saw during COVID, th- it's not about, in many respects, the medicine, to the examples you gave. It's about they cannot stand that somebody is not agreeing with their beliefs. They cannot extend the exceptions, those who stand up, say, "No, I've come to a different medical conclusion." They-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- ASAaron Siri
... they can't let that exist.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. That, that is what it is. It, it, it... And it happens, uh, for people regardless of their religious status. It's a weird thing. It's like, it is like a religion. I mean, which is why I'm so glad you wrote your book that way because I think there's these natural patterns of groupthink and ofJust, just complying that people automatically fall into. It's very easy. That's why people can get people to join cults. That's why people, um, are a part of, like, weird Christian sects. Like, wait, what do you guys do? Huh?
- ASAaron Siri
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
You're like, "Who, who's the guy? Who's the head guy? This guy? And he gets to marry everybody? What? Okay. What?"
- ASAaron Siri
Well, well, well that's what ha- I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's normal. It's a normal thing.
- 1:17:04 – 1:28:05
Media incentives, algorithmic groupthink, and the shift to AI as gatekeeper
- JRJoe Rogan
It's, but it, what's really stunning is you're also allowed to influence the people that actually deliver the news.
- ASAaron Siri
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is, you know, that's the crazy one. Like, Callie Means talked about that. Like, they're advertising not because they wanna sell their products with the advertisement that they're putting on the air. Well, they're, they're doing that too, but they're also ensuring that this steady stream of revenue that's going to these networks, they won't be opening up any lines of in- investigation into the vaccine injuries. Like, that's not gonna happen. You're not gonna see a giant CNN piece about COVID-19 vaccine injuries. It's not happening. It's not happening. You're not, you're not gonna hear much about anything. It, it's gonna be a, it has to be a big fucking story where they have to say it, or they'll just mention a judgment real quick and then move on. Moving on.
- ASAaron Siri
Uh, the Rasmussen poll, uh, I, I don't know if you remember this one, found that, I believe, one in four, and I'm not, I think that's right, but I'm not sure, 100%, people said they believe they knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- ASAaron Siri
... or knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine. When you have that many people with that, with, with that lived experience, and yet the mainstream media, as you just said, was still able to continue to push the narrative around COVID vaccines the way they did, the Nobel Prize. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. Nobel Prize related lobotomy refers to a 1949 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine awarded to António Egas Moniz, a Portuguese neurologist, for developing the prefrontal lobotomy.
- ASAaron Siri
I believe that continued until the '60s, by the way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, imagine that. He got that prize in '49. They were like, "Good job."
- ASAaron Siri
Meaning the medical profession-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- ASAaron Siri
... as it stood in the '60s when the measles vaccine was rolling out-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- ASAaron Siri
... was still doing this, by the way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- ASAaron Siri
Just by, just by the way.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think they stopped lobotomies in '60... Was it '67?
- JRJoe Rogan
He developed something called a leuc- leu- leu- leucotomy, which was slightly different than what became known as the lobotomy, which we know as, like, the ice pick method.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ugh.
- ASAaron Siri
What was his-
- JRJoe Rogan
But it said also called the leucotomy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ugh.
- JRJoe Rogan
So that was, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
This, the Freeman, that's the guy who was like the doc- I think they called him even Dr. Death or something strange like that.
- ASAaron Siri
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
For he did like, he did a ton of lobotomies all over the country.
- ASAaron Siri
Well, unfortunately today you don't need a lobotomy apparently to have a lobotomy.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- ASAaron Siri
Just, just spend a lot of time on social media and get your information from certain places and-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's so bad for people
- 1:28:05 – 1:47:25
Regulatory capture and the revolving door (FDA/CDC to industry)
- JRJoe Rogan
Should that be a thing?
- ASAaron Siri
What?
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, if you could redo the... If you had a magic wand and you could completely redo the economy, would you have the stock market? I mean, isn't it enough that people just buy things, sell things, your company's worth money because it makes money? Isn't that enough?
- ASAaron Siri
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why, why do we have to complicate it? I, why, why do we have a stock market? What-
- ASAaron Siri
I, I don't know if the stock market itself is the problem. I mean, stocks, the whole idea is just to find a, you know, a, a, a, a, a more... A efficient way for me to sell you shares in my company.
- JRJoe Rogan
I get it.
- ASAaron Siri
That's all it is. But the underlying problem is not the market, in my view. It's not the existence of the stock market. It's the government i- interve- intervening into the w- n- market forces in a way that do not result in a good outcome. Oh, and, and often that is at the behest of industry. When government... There, there needs to be some government regulation.
- JRJoe Rogan
So that's the problem. The problem is-
- ASAaron Siri
I think that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
... that corporations have money. They can use that money to influence laws, influence government.
- ASAaron Siri
I th- uh, that c- that is a significant part of the problem-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- ASAaron Siri
... because look, most regulatory agencies are born out of some crisis when you... Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
So, uh, they often start as a great idea, like people wanting to do good, members of our Congress wanting to do good. But then who's got the time, money, and inclination to influence that regulatory agency? You?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- ASAaron Siri
Well, you do have some money, but you? Me? Uh, who? Uh, no. It's going to be even with-
- JRJoe Rogan
Lobbyists
- ASAaron Siri
... even, even with, even, even wealthy folks don't have it. They don't... They're not gonna do it. The very... It's not even the lobbyists per se. It's the very industry they're trying to regulate. They have the money, time, patience, inclination to do that, to create the revolving door, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ASAaron Siri
Think about it like this. Article One of the Constitution creates Congress, right? First article. And what's its g- purpose? Primary purpose is to pass laws, right? How many laws a year does it pass, do you think, approximately? About 200, okay? Our agencies on the federal go- government, do you know how many regulations which have the same exact weight as law are pa- they pass every year?
- JRJoe Rogan
Can I guess?
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
2,000.
- ASAaron Siri
It depends on the year, but often more. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- ASAaron Siri
Yes. Um, there's a chart on this that I'm sure can be pulled up, but, uh, it's not... But it's something to that effect. Depends on the year, but somewhere between, let's say, 100, 300 to thousands on the other side. And who are those folks passing? Are they part of the Article One, the constitutional branch that's supposed to pass laws that are elected representatives? No. They're unelected bureaucrats sitting there, and you name your alphabet agency that you've probably never heard of, that pass these regs that are the same force of law. And who's really has the, again, the time and inclination to influence them? It's often the very industry. So it starts as a good idea, but unfortunately it ends up being, uh, what, what the literature calls... This is the political science literature. Came out of Harvard and Yale and all those places. They don't wanna talk about it today. Captive agencies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- ASAaron Siri
Okay? That's what they often become. CDC, FDA, and very much are to varying degrees, depending on w- what they're doingare very much captive agencies when you look closely at it and you understand it. Um, that's true of many other parts of the government, and so-
- 1:47:25 – 2:01:48
Schedules, chronic disease, Amish comparisons, and autism: the FOIA ‘missing studies’ claim
- ASAaron Siri
Absolutely, but I will say this, you don't need to go down a rabbit hole, okay, 'cause that happens to a lot of people with vaccines I've seen. N- not the majority, not most, but it happens to some where it's like, "Oh my goodness. If the government's lying or not telling me the truth about these products, then what can I believe?" And I w- and, and, you know, people, some folks can go down s- some, some different alleys, and I would say that I w- I really, truly, I've not seen anything like vaccines. Vaccines really are in their own bucket because of that immunity. It's what I call original sin in my book. There really is no product, no product that I'm aware of that operates in this kind of landscape. Like I said, every other product, the market force will for, to varying degrees with wrinkles, correct for the issues because there's economic self-interest. They broke that with vaccines. So we've gone from three shots following the 198- in 1986, one before the first year of age. At the beginning of 2000, 2025, you know how many shots it was that a baby got on or before their first birthday? Take a guess.
- JRJoe Rogan
72.
- ASAaron Siri
No, no, that's, that's, uh, that's their whole childhood. 29.
- JRJoe Rogan
29-
- ASAaron Siri
Three-
- JRJoe Rogan
... for the first birthday?
- ASAaron Siri
Yes, on or before their first birthday. Went from three to 29 shots, including in utero. Now with d- with the recent changes, it's down to 19. And the reason I focus on the first year, most of the shots in the first six months of life, is that's when the baby is going through really critical stages of n- uh, of, of, um, neurological, immunological development, right? Synapse. And think how small a baby is, okay? And so, um, um, they're really susceptible to various effects. Also, babies can't express what, what's, what's going wrong with them, okay? So now i- in the normal course, okay, in the normal course, you've got a product. You've gone from three of them in 1986 by the first year. You're up to 25, 29 beginning of 2025. Now you're at 19 still. And during that period you've gone from under 10% of kids had a chronic health issue in the early 1980s according to the data. You now have over 40%. Some data show over 50% of kids having chronic health issues, often multiple times the rate, okay? And what are those chronic health issues that have exploded? To be sure, by the way, any environmental insult can cause dysregulation in the body, okay? Including a pharmaceutical product, including vaccines. But when you look at those, um, chronic diseases that have exploded, almost all of them have an etiologyRelating to some form of immune system dysregulation. Look at asthma, look at atopic issues, look at ticks, look at ADHD. You know, nobody thinks about it this way, but if you look at the PubMed literature, there's, uh, uh, immune markers that have gone awry in kids with ADHD. Okay? So you look at that. Now, I'd say, okay, the lawyers, those who would hold these companies accountable, would look at that, and then they would start looking at the data, and I'll show you some, what some of the data shows. We talked about the Amish earlier, for example. Okay? The Amish that I represent in New York, um, there's three schools. The New York, uh, health department decided that it doesn't like what the Amish beliefs are. It wants the Amish to adopt their beliefs and abandon the, their real religious beliefs and to give their kids these vaccines. Otherwise, they were gonna impose crushing fines on these three Amish schools. Three schools, by the way, which means a room, no electricity, a teacher, you know what I mean? On Amish land. They don't take tax money. They pay taxes, but they refuse to take tax money, taught by Amish teachers. And so w- we, amongst those families of those three schools, there was like 160 or something kids, and what we did is we, we did a survey. We asked them, "What health conditions do those kids have?" Those 160 kids, many of them are already older, too, so you would know their health outcomes. And this is all in our court papers. This is all on a federal docket. Anybody can go and read it for themselves. Okay? Amongst those children, you would expect to have... Because, like, one in 10 kids approximately have asthma, you would expect to have, like, nine cases of asthma. You'd expect to have six cases of this, five ca- They have none, zero of the chronic health conditions plaguing kids in America today. And the approximately 10 or so studies that have been done, and I'm gonna bring this back to my legal point, the approximately 10 or so studies that have done that compared kids with no exposure, meaning zero vaccines, to kids that have had one or more vaccines show the same outcome. Kids with zero vaccines, almost none of the chronic health issues that face kids today in America. Kids with one or more vaccines, multiple rates of the chronic health issues facing kids today. Now, that data all exists. I, those, I put those studies in my book. Anybody can read them. I even put the Amish information in my book. It's all cited. You can go look at it yourself if you're out there. Some of them are even on PubMed. The market could have corrected for that if you could hold those pharma companies accountable, but you can't.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, is it correct that the only instances of autism they found in Amish kids were adopted kids?
- ASAaron Siri
Um, there are data and some reports that reflect that, but if we... So there are that, but those are more news reports. Those are not... Somebody will criticize you, by the way. You're gonna get criticism and say, "Well, that's not a peer-reviewed study."
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I had an, a follow-up question that would maybe clarify.
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah. Well, a- and so, uh, we can say, w- we can go move on to what does the peer-reviewed literature show if you want.
- JRJoe Rogan
The, well, the follow-up question would be-
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... are they even being diagnosed?
- ASAaron Siri
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
So if they're getting Amish care and Amish teachers and Amish l- uh, is it possible that there are some kids that are just behaving odd that would be diagnosed? Like, this is the criticism.
- ASAaron Siri
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
The people say... Like, this is, when you hear some mainstream suit talking on television, "Well, there was always someone odd when we were kids."
- ASAaron Siri
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? There's no... They just... The diagnosis is different today. That's why it's one in 12 boys in California. They're over-diagnosing. And I'm like, "No." No, I, I have friends that have, I have multiple friends that have non-verbal children. That, that, I'd never had that when I was a kid. That was not normal. That was not a common thing. It was very, very, very rare.
- ASAaron Siri
The notion that, uh, autism is just better diagnosed and that's the only reason for the increase is, um, I don't know a better word for it. I'm gonna say nonsense, okay? Um, uh, uh, even if you look at the... 'Cause they've changed the DSM-V, which is what we're up to, the di- diagnostics manual. That is the, uh, s- s- the psychiatric manual that has the criteria for diagnosing autism. It has changed over time, but when you even just look at severe autism, just severe autism, which California has very good data on, from the '70s and onward until today, it's exploded. Okay? So the, the, the notion that we just have better diagnosis is, is not a serious point. But putting that aside, the Amish do go to doctors.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do they go to Amish doctors?
- ASAaron Siri
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- ASAaron Siri
They go to regular doctors. The Amish, the Amish, for example, could even go in a car. They just can't drive a car.
- JRJoe Rogan
But-
- ASAaron Siri
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
So they can get an Uber?
- ASAaron Siri
There, there's different... I sh- I should be, I should be more-
- JRJoe Rogan
Somebody orders it?
- 2:01:48 – 2:33:13
Debates, ‘thoroughly debunked’ messaging, and closing reflections on incentives
- JRJoe Rogan
So when this narrative, which you hear all the time on these panels, on these news shows, "Vaccines do not cause autism, that has been thoroughly debunked," where's that come from?
- ASAaron Siri
Vaccines, Amen. That's why I call my book Vaccines, Amen.
- JRJoe Rogan
The crowd cheers.
- ASAaron Siri
Because-
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you seen those live shows where crowds cheer?
- ASAaron Siri
But this is what I'm talking about. This is why I wrote the book. I wrote the book because in 10 years that I have litigated 100, 200 lawsuits against federal and state health agencies, that I have deposed the world's leading vaccinologists, including Dr. Stanley Plotkin. Uh, you go down the list.And chasing them when they're in a deposition, when their back is against the wall in a federal or state lawsuit, and they have no choice but to admit the truth or give the evidence, put up or shut up. What I have found is that the claims they make about vaccines versus the reality are completely different, and it is disturbing. When I came into this, I w- [chuckles] had you told me, "Yeah, they don't have any studies that show vaccines don't cause autism in the first six months of life," I'd be like, "You're crazy. Get out of here. They tell you it's thoroughly debunked, thoroughly studied, the most studied thing ever. They have a mountain of science, Joe. There's a mountain of studies. You know how big it is?"
- JRJoe Rogan
A mountain.
- ASAaron Siri
"It's so big, and you know what's on top of that mountain? Another mountain of studies. You know how... Another mountain. There's so many studies. They're drowning in studies that vaccines don't cause autism." But then when you demand it, not the bull crap that they say on TV, but you actually demand it, that's the result. And that, you could pull it up on the internet, by the way, that, that, that, that, that, that, that court stipulation, it's right there. You could also hear me depose Dr. Stanley Plotkin, the world's leading vaccinologist, where I said to him, I said, "Doctor," you know, and you have y- this clip's on the internet. I said, I said, "There's no studies that support that DTaP does not cause autism, right?" And he s- he, and at first he said, "Well, I..." I said, "Well, what do you think the IOM concluded?" He goes, "Well, I would assume they said it doesn't." I, so I showed it to him. He goes, "Oh." This is the world's leading vaccinologist. He didn't even know this. He goes, "Oh, okay, there are no studies. Okay." He goes... So I said, "Shouldn't you wait until you do? Shouldn't you wait until you have the studies that show that DTaP doesn't cause autism to then tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism?" You know what he said to me? "No. No, I don't wait. I don't wait because I have to take into account the health of the child," he said. I said, "So for that reason, you're willing to tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism even though you don't have the data to support it?" And he said, "Absolutely." You can play that clip if you want. It's on the internet. Uh, and then I deposed in a case about vaccines and autism. It was about a Dr. Catherine Edwards, who is one of the four, I guess, leading vaccinologists in the world, one of the four editors of the medical textbooks on vaccine, which is called Plotkin's Vaccines. I deposed her about vaccines and autism. And I said, "Do you have a study that shows hep B vaccine doesn't cause autism?" This was after this court stipulation, the court order I told you about. She didn't have any for hep B, for Hi- for the ones I just t- the, the first six months of life. So yes, they say on TV it's thoroughly debunked, but I'm telling you that is a belief. That is not science. That is not fact. It is not based on data. It is based on pure belief.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they say it just like they say, you know, Jesus Christ is Lord.
- ASAaron Siri
I think they believe actually in vaccines more because they'll kick kids out of school in, in s- in some archdioceses even, in some other Christian schools, far less. Uh, m- most archdioceses won't if the kid won't get vaccines. So I actually think they believe in vaccines more than Jesus in some places, by the way.
- JRJoe Rogan
[sighs] What an amazing job of gaslighting and propaganda they've done.
- ASAaron Siri
But I, I just wanna b- I, I just gotta be clear 'cause a- anybody hearing this might think that that just sounds crazy. But I implore anybody who's heard me say that, pull up the court order yourself. Look at it yourself. Watch the depositions. Go to PubMed. See for yourself. Oh, and by the way, do not rely on AI, 'cause I've done this fun job with them. Like, I'm like, "Do hep B vaccines cause autism?" "It's been thoroughly d- researched and there's no studies." I just go, "Okay, great. So how do y-" And I say to AI, I go, "How do you s- reach a scientific conclusion?" "Well, you use peer-reviewed studies." I go, "Wonderful. So to, to conclude that hep B vaccine does not cause autism, you need peer-reviewed studies." "That is correct." "Wonderful. Now please pl- in a list, these studies that show hep B vaccine does cause autism. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Uh, da, da, da. Give me three studies." I've had, I, I've had, uh, ChatGPT make up studies. Literally, "Hep B vaccine does not cause au-" And I'm like, "That doesn't exist. Give me the PubMed number." "You are correct. I aim to provide, uh, uh, valid information, but in this instance, I fell short." Literally made up a s- I'm not joking. Made up a study.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's crazy.
- ASAaron Siri
I've had it... And, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
"I fell short. I lied to you." [laughs]
- ASAaron Siri
I've done, I've done this for fun with friends.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- ASAaron Siri
And so I'm like, "Watch this. Watch this." And finally I'll get it to admit that the only study is the Gallagher and Goodman study. That that is the only study. I will get it to admit. It takes about often 45 minutes to an hour.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah. It takes a while, but it will eventually admit it, and they all do it. Grok does it too, by the way. Grok's better, by the way. Better, but it's bad too. And they will s- they will say, you know, on, on all of these questions, they will make stuff up. And unless you know, like I know the universe of studies. I know it's baloney.
- JRJoe Rogan
Can I ask you this? Do you think that these, uh, large language models are programmed with certain truths that they can't fight against, or do you think it's because they're pulling from so much bullshit on the internet, and so many bullshit narratives on the internet from trusted sources that'll tell you that vaccines don't cause autism? Like, there's a ton of, you know, m- major newspapers, major magazines, there's a ton of them that have talked about how it's been thoroughly debunked, and then they'll quote doctors and scientists-
- ASAaron Siri
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... that don't list any specific studies, but they'll say, "We've done exhaustive studies. They've been thoroughly debunked." They'll say that, and then they'll print that. And so is the, is the AI just pulling from so much bullshit online that it, like, looks through all the noise and says, like, "89% say vaccines do not cause autism, therefore it must be true"? Or is it programmed to say, "Hey, this is what you say. Vaccines don't cause autism."
- ASAaron Siri
You must hold me in very high regard. You've, you've held me out as an e- uh, you've, [laughs] you've held me to incredibly complex economic questions, and now langla- [laughs] large language model questions, so I appreciate-
- JRJoe Rogan
You're a very smart guy.
- ASAaron Siri
I appreciate the compliment so far on that score. With that said, um- [both laughing] Um, I mean, I, I, I don't know the answer, but I will speculate 'cause I don't know the answer that, uh, I, I'm gonna guess, I'm guess- I'm really guessing, uh, um, that it might be a mix of some programming because Google, for example, I n- n- you know... If you go and you search for Aaron Siri Substack, you get Paul Offit Substack. Why?
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- ASAaron Siri
How in the world do you get Paul Offit Substack when you search for mine, and mine's like, it's not even, like, on the first page. I don't think it's on the second. Now, I, maybe they fixed that. I don't know. So it, some of that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that using Google?
- ASAaron Siri
That's using Google.
Episode duration: 2:36:32
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