Joe Rogan Experience #2462 - Aaron Siri

Joe Rogan 0:02 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.

Speaker 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

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0:13 So you had a pile of notes, and then you just folded them up. Like did you commit them to memory?

Aaron Siri 0:17 No, just these two things. I have the links I sent you guys, and then-

Joe Rogan 0:19 Oh, okay

Aaron Siri 0:20 ... and just some stuff there, just-

Joe Rogan 0:21 I just saw the pieces-

Aaron Siri 0:22 ... just in case

Joe Rogan 0:22 ... of paper that you folded. I was like, "What's in there?"

Aaron Siri 0:24 It's just... That's just-

Joe Rogan 0:25 [laughs] How did... First of all, I wanna, I wanna talk you through, like when you were a younger man, before you had looked into this, what was your opinions on medical science? What was your opinions on vaccines? Were you skeptical, or did you just kind of assume that everything that we're told is exactly how it is, and the experts have only the best interests of human beings in mind and not, not money?

Aaron Siri 0:49 I had what you would effectively call the mainstream view.

Joe Rogan 0:52 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 0:52 Vaccines saved humanity.

Joe Rogan 0:53 Me too.

Aaron Siri 0:53 We'd all be dead without them.

Joe Rogan 0:55 Yep. [laughs]

Aaron Siri 0:56 Um, you know, they are the, uh, um, there was the Bible given to, to Moses at Sinai, and then there were vaccines.

Joe Rogan 1:02 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 1:02 That's basically, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:05 I think it's anybody that didn't consider themselves a fool. You know? If y- you would c- you would have to be a fool, like a real fool-

Aaron Siri 1:12 Right

Joe Rogan 1:12 ... to ignore all this medical science, which is the reason why there's so many people alive today that would've died. And a lot of that's true, with penicillin, antibiotics. There's a lot of stuff that has saved a lot of people's lives. Um, b- but the vaccine one, until this COVID epidemic, I would've never questioned it. I mocked anti-vaxxers. I was like, "These people are silly. Don't they know all the good things that vaccines have done?" And the, just the blatant propaganda that we were force-fed, like one of those ducks they're trying to make foie gras with-

Aaron Siri 1:44 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:44 ... th- it just made me stop and pause and go, "Is the whole thing like this? Is this whole thing just a dirty money-laundering operation?" Because it kind of seems like that's at least part of the reason why they were telling people to get boosted when they knew it wasn't working, and, and telling young people that didn't need it to... They wanted to make a lot of money. That's the only reason why you would do any of those things, after a certain amount of information is out. And so it just made me stop and think about the whole thing, and go, "Well, wh- why would I assume that this is the one area where pharmaceutical drug companies, doctor- everybody's been totally honest in this one area," when it's like a religious thing i- if you question it. And one of... that's the... Well, I love the title of your book.

Aaron Siri 2:32 Yes. Vaccines Amen: The Religion of Vaccines.

Joe Rogan 2:36 Yeah. You... It's, that's what it is.

Aaron Siri 2:38 It-

Joe Rogan 2:38 It's a religion for secular, intelligent people with a higher education. [laughs]

Aaron Siri 2:44 And it causes incredible cognitive dissonance for anybody out there to come to the conclusion that the CDC, and the FDA, and our public health authorities, and what the entire medical establishment has been telling you may not be accurate about vaccines. Because like what you just said, the claim that you're a flat Earther, you're an anti-vaxxer-

Joe Rogan 3:11 Yeah

Aaron Siri 3:11 ... deserves, and not, they're used as a way to say, "You are really out there and dumb," right?

Joe Rogan 3:17 They, they're completely equal in their impact.

Aaron Siri 3:19 And so it takes incredible cognitive dissonance to r- say there are real problems with vaccines, but vaccines really sit in their own little universe. They're unlike any other medical product. They're not like penicillin. They're not like any other drugs. They're not like any other product out there, any other product in this room, anything out there, for one major reason. Every other product that exists, I can sue the company, I can hold them accountable if that product injures or kills you or your child on the basis that product could've been safer. The only product, and I mean this literally, the only product in America where you cannot sue to say, "Had you made that product safer, my child wouldn't be dead. My child wouldn't be seriously injured. They wouldn't have a neurological disorder. They wouldn't have immunological disorder. They wouldn't have a nervous system disorder. They wouldn't have a cardiac, cardiac issue," are childhood vaccines and child vaccines used by adults. It's the only one, and that's because of a law called the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986. It gave pharma companies that incredibly special immunity. Now, just to put that into context, okay? And, and I'll, and I'll tie this back in a second as to how we ended up with this notion of, uh, th- this belief, religion in vaccines, because, you know, give an industry 40 years of unopposed ability to influence, they're gonna get pretty dang far, and they did with vaccines. And so, um, you know, uh, a lot of industries face a crossroads where their products are causing more harm than good. Gas tanks used to explode. What did they do? Made a better gas tank, right? Building materials had asbestos. Caused cancer. What do they do? They make better building materials, right? Do they give them immunity? No, of course not. But in the instance of vaccines, leading up to 1986, there were only three routine vaccines. That's it. That's all there was. A child following the CDC schedule in 1986 got three injections on or before their first birth- birthday, okay? Those three products were causing so much harm and injury that every manufacturer of them s- went out of business, and that was the MMR vaccine, the DTP, and the OPV vaccine. Every single one, f- from six down to one, or for the pertussis vaccine, six down to one, for measles, about three down to one for polio.And with one company left for each, instead of forcing them to do what every other industry has to do, like I said, make better building materials without asbestos, make better cars that don't explode, go down the chain of different products out there, Congress did something completely unique. It said, "You know what? We're just going to give you immunity. We're going to make it so that no company, excuse me, no individual, no parent, no child can sue you for the injuries and deaths caused by your vaccine products." That is what the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 did, and not only for those three products, but for any other childhood vaccine thereafter. And what that effectively has done is given 40 years for the industry to promote their products with no pushback. When you read about a problem with a car, where are you reading about it from? Usually a class action lawsuit in the paper, right? You're not going to read about that in vaccines typically. And because of that, you ended up where we are. Anyways, there's a lot more detail to that, but I'll stop there for now.

Joe Rogan 7:02 No, please keep going.

Aaron Siri 7:03 Well, I, I, I mean, when you think about, um, what makes products safer, right? Because I've got a, I've got a law firm with over 100 in- individuals. I'm the managing partner of the firm. Half my firm does all types of plaintiff-side class actions. We can hold companies accountable for almost anything. Your data, we do hundreds of data breach cases, genetic privacy cases, biometric privacy cases. We do all kinds, all types of, of, of lawsuits like that nature, by the way, and New York Times loves those lawsuits, by the way. [chuckles] That stuff nobody attacks me for, okay? Oh, making, making my privacy better? Oh, protecting me from cars that explode? Oh, thank you. Make vaccines safer? You want to kill everybody. Okay. Than any of it.

Joe Rogan 7:48 That's where, that, but that's where it's really weird.

Aaron Siri 7:50 But well, he, he, he, here's, here's where I think I, I can make, I'm hoping I can make it make sense without causing cognitive dissonance. So going back to how we make products safer in America or anywhere, okay? It's not the government. Governments don't make products safer. Look at extremely authoritarian regimes where there was very little m- free market, like the former USSR. You think products were safe? No. What makes products safe? It's the economic self-interest of the company. It's the economic interest of the company to make the product safer. Why? You probably own stock, right? And where do you want your stock to go, up or down? How do you want it to go? You want it to go up or you want it to go down? Where do you want it to go?

Joe Rogan 8:37 Up.

Aaron Siri 8:37 You want it to go up. Okay. So do all the investors.

Joe Rogan 8:40 Right.

Aaron Siri 8:41 So does everybody who owns that stock. So does Wall Street. So does the CEO. So does the board. So does everybody, the people who own the stock, everybody involved, all the employees that have stock options, including usually the major ones, everybody wants it to go up. If you lose money, it doesn't go up. So normally, the interest to assure a product is safer is aligned with the profit motive, because if your product causes injury and harm, then you're going to lose money. So you'll want to know typically, you have an economic self-interest as a corporation to know, not because you're altruistic, not because you're moral, not because you're ethical, just because you have that economic self-interest to assure the product is safe before you go to market and after you go to market, okay? And that exists for every product in America with effectively one exception, vaccines. That's really it. Now, I'm going to show you one result of that in practice, okay? Uh, uh, uh, when you think of drugs, and, and this will help, I think, tie into what you were saying about what happened with COVID. Um, most drugs are licensed based on multi-year placebo-controlled trials. Most of them. Why? Because the FDA requires it? [chuckles] Because the FDA's so great? No. Nothing to do with the FDA. It's because the company wants to know whether the drug is safe or not before it goes to market, because you know what happens to the drug that they put out that's going to make forty billion in revenue or twenty billion, but causes 100 billion in harm? They end up f- upside down. So they want to know, to a reasonable degree, how safe the drug is before it goes to market. In an attempt not to cherry-pick, as I did in my book, I found an article that listed the top four selling profitable drugs by Pfizer as of like 2000, 2021 or something, 2019, okay? And i- if you look at those four most profitable drugs, I, as I put in my book, each one has two to seven years of follow-up in the clinical trial that was relied upon to license that drug against a placebo control group, just to make sure everybody... I'm sure everybody knows what that means, but that just means a group that gets something inert. So this way, you, you give the group the experimental drug, you give a group the placebo, something inert, you track them for multiple years, and then you compare all the outcomes, cardiovascular outcomes, neurological outcomes, immuno- go down the list, and cancer rates, and you see the difference. You get a real actual sense of the safety between those two, uh, b- uh, for that product. In contrast, for most childhood vaccines, instead of years, it's often days or weeks of safety review in the clinical trial relied upon to license them. Not a single, and I know that, uh, s- folks contest this all the time, but it's in the FDA literature, not a single routine injected childhood vaccine was licensed based on a placebo-controlled trial, save for the COVID vaccine, by the way, for children. It's the only one. Not a single one, okay? Um, and norWas the vaccine sometimes uses the control itself licensed based on a placebo-controlled trial, nor anywhere down that chain. Chapter 10 of my book, I go through every vaccine, I go through, I have it all cited to the FDA licensure documents. You can listen to the talking heads or you can rely on the primary sources from the FDA, which is why I call my book Vaccines Amen, because there's what they tell you, and then there's what the actual evidence shows, right? So, um, that gives you an example at the outcome of not having an economic self-interest. With drugs, they have it, so they want to know the safety.

Joe Rogan 12:43 Can I, um-

Aaron Siri 12:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:44 challenge you on that?

Aaron Siri 12:44 Please.

Joe Rogan 12:44 What about Vioxx? Like the Vioxx people knew that there, there was, one of the things that was revealed during the trial is that they knew that there was gonna be issues. They, the, I think the quote was, "We th- we still think we'll do well." And that was one of the damning aspects of the email, uh, disclosure, because you got a chance to see how these guys talk about this drug that they're about to release. I think they wound up paying a percentage of the amount of money they made from the drug, but they w- made way more from the drug than they did the fine.

Aaron Siri 13:17 No, I, I appreciate that challenge, and it, it's why I said when I, I was saying that they do the analysis of whether they're going to have 100 billion in loss or fif- 40 billion in revenue. I'm not saying they won't put out a drug that causes harm.

Joe Rogan 13:31 You're saying it can't cause too much harm.

Aaron Siri 13:34 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 13:35 Okay.

Aaron Siri 13:35 They can't, they don't want to end up upside down. And remember, the whole reason a drug is licensed is because it can cause harm.

Joe Rogan 13:43 The crazy thing about the Vioxx one is I think it killed somewhere north of 50,000 people, and they still made profit off of it, which is kind of bananas. They pulled it and, and made billions in profit. This is the m- the darker aspect of this. If you were talking about companies that never did anything wrong and had the highest moral and ethical standards, and they're the ones, because it's not about money, it's about saving people's health, and it's about public safety, and we gotta make sure that we do this right. We gotta make sure we squash all the disinformation. But that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about these companies that have been fined billions, billions of dollars in criminal fines for fraud, for all kinds of shit. These are the people. And the f- the idea that they wouldn't lie about vaccines, like this is the one thing, at, they're gonna tell you the truth. Ruthless capitalists attached to money and drugs, this is the one thing they're gonna 100% tell you the truth about. That seems kind of kooky. That's a, that's a, that's a hard sell for anybody [chuckles] who's not ideologically captured. That's a hard sell.

Aaron Siri 14:52 Yeah, but I don't, I don't think you need to go down the road that there's some kind of evil nefariousness there.

Joe Rogan 14:58 No.

Aaron Siri 14:58 It's pure-

Joe Rogan 14:58 That's not what I'm saying

Aaron Siri 14:58 ... it's, it's a broken economic-

Joe Rogan 15:01 Human nature, yes

Aaron Siri 15:01 ... and regulatory system from my perspective.

Joe Rogan 15:03 Right.

Aaron Siri 15:04 It's just a completely broken econ- To your point about Vioxx, right? So in Vioxx, it caused incredible amount of harm, but they still decided that the benefits raised the risk. Do you, do you know the story about the, the, the cars that used to explode? It's the classic case we learned in law school, and the, the gas tank and, and, um, these, you know, these cars-

Joe Rogan 15:25 Was it a Pinto?

Aaron Siri 15:25 It was the Pintos, that's right.

Joe Rogan 15:27 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 15:27 And, and a number of them explode every year, burning the people inside them alive to death, right? Horrible way to go. And, and, uh, there was a lawsuit, and in that lawsuit what they discovered was the company had done an internal calculation in which it, it, it did the math. What's it gonna cost to actually fix all the gas tanks? V- what's that dollar number versus what's it gonna cost to just pay out for those deaths every year, for those people that we burn knowingly are gonna die and burn to death in those cars?

Joe Rogan 15:57 Wow.

Aaron Siri 15:57 And the calculation was that it was gonna cost less to pay out for the deaths, and that is what the internal document showed, and that, by the way, is in part the case, the quintessential case you learn in law school for why they have punitive damages. Because the punitive damages were there to force the company to conform its conduct in exactly that scenario where the economics weren't gonna do it, right? Even in something that horrible, when the market forces weren't sufficient, the economic self-interest wasn't there, you had to make it happen. How? Through punitive damages. I know there's a lot of, you know, news about punitive damages, oh, it's excessive and so forth, but that's what they're there for. They're there for that scenario where, where just holding them accountable. Now go back to vaccines. Think about how incredibly harmful and how much harm these vaccines must do that they cannot survive on the market without this immunity f- from 1986. Think about that.

Joe Rogan 17:02 If you were gonna steel me on the argument against that-

Aaron Siri 17:04 Yes

Joe Rogan 17:05 ... wouldn't you say, "Look, these are, we can't have frivolous lawsuits against these people that are providing us the most important medication that's available to humans. The, the whole reason why we survived smallpox and polio and all these different things, it's these vaccines. Without them, we'd all be dead." This episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. I have used their knives for years. They are absolutely fantastic. The company was founded by one of the most experienced master bladesmiths in the world, my friend Josh Smith. Uh, he has been making knives sinceHe was a kid. He, he's been making knives for 30 years. He made his first hunting knife when he was 11 years old and became a master bladesmith at 19. This man loves knives, the construction of knives. They are absolutely next level. Everything is made right here in the USA in Montana, and these knives are designed, tested, and built by hunters. They come insanely sharp out of the box and are crazy easy to sharpen. Mon- Montana Knife Company is a young company working hard to keep up with demand because these knives sell out in minutes. If you want one, head over to montanaknifecompany.com to see what's available now. Sign up for their email newsletter so you know when they restock, and get in on their SMS notifications for special knife drops. My personal favorite blade is the Speed Goat 2.0. I use it all the time. It's an amazing knife. Montana Knife Company, working knives for working people.

Aaron Siri 18:35 Uh, w- uh, let's just assume that the last part of what you said [laughs] is true, which we know it's not. But w-with that said-

Joe Rogan 18:41 Just Steel Manning it.

Aaron Siri 18:42 Let's Steel Manning it.

Joe Rogan 18:44 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 18:44 Easy response, okay?

Joe Rogan 18:45 Okay.

Aaron Siri 18:46 [clears throat] Drugs, drugs that are for very small populations, meaning not a lot of market, not a lot of sales, that cause incredible side effects can survive on the market profitably. Think about that for a second. Why? Okay, here's why. It's a little bit of le- legal stuff, but it's not that hard. It's not that bad, okay? The primary claim you would typically bring against a product is the claim that it could've been made safer. It's called a design defect claim. It's a claim to where I say, "Hey, had you put in a two-cent stopper on that gas tank, it wouldn't have exploded. If you'd have put in a one penny plastic shield on that saw, I'd have my finger." Okay? Design defect claim, the claim you could've made a product safer. It is the primary claim you would bring for a product, okay? Injury claim. So how do you protect against it? You make the product as technologically safe as possible, right? So-

Joe Rogan 19:52 Right

Aaron Siri 19:52 ... if you have a drug that causes incredible side effects that we just talked about, make the drug as safe as possible. Make sure the, there are no contaminants, make sure that you use the best possible ingredients, make sure the combination, right, the, the, the safest adjuvant, go down the road. That's, that's number one. Number two, the second most, uh, the, the second way y-y-you, you hold them accountable is you bring a claim called a failure to warn claim. I failed to warn you about the harm that the drug could've caused, okay? And so what do you have to do there to protect yourself? The company has to disclose all the potential harms. If it has it right there on the package insert and you get it and it says, "Hey, it can cause this, this, this, this," you were told. You chose to still take the product. They made it as safe as technologically feasible. They disclosed the risks, and that is how companies typically limit their liability with medical products, with drug products, okay? Why can't they do that with vaccines? Why can't they just make them as safe as technologically feasible, can't sue them for design defect, and disclose all the actual risks in the package insert, okay? The logical conclusion is... And, uh, and one other point that, and I'll, and then I'll, I'll-

Joe Rogan 20:57 Okay

Aaron Siri 20:57 ... I'll respond to your Steel Man, okay?

Joe Rogan 20:59 Okay.

Aaron Siri 20:59 And it's this, all right? It's been 40 years for some of these vaccines. Hep B vaccine, for example, licensed in '86 and '89, the two standalones. It's been 40 years. You're telling me they still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity? You're giving it to millions of kids a year. You're making billions of dollars on the sales of this product, and you still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity? Please.

Joe Rogan 21:20 Um, okay, if I was a, a silly person-

Aaron Siri 21:23 Okay

Joe Rogan 21:24 ... I would probably say these vaccines are more important than any medication that's ever existed because they are the reason why we are here, 'cause that's how we-

Aaron Siri 21:34 Okay

Joe Rogan 21:34 ... survived smallpox and polio and the measles and everything else. And without them, we would have perished. Uh, we would have never achieved the technological states that we're at because we wouldn't have been healthy. We would've gone through mass plagues.

Aaron Siri 21:50 Okay, I'll, I'll respond to that.

Joe Rogan 21:51 So w-

Aaron Siri 21:51 Easy response

Joe Rogan 21:51 ... so, and, and because of that, it's just important that-

Aaron Siri 21:55 Yeah

Joe Rogan 21:56 ... they stay a- they stay in business.

Aaron Siri 21:57 All r- Well, a few things first of all.

Joe Rogan 21:58 And we trust the science.

Aaron Siri 21:59 Okay.

Joe Rogan 21:59 You should trust the science, Aaron.

Aaron Siri 22:00 Trust the science, yes. Believe.

Joe Rogan 22:01 Aaron, trust the science.

Aaron Siri 22:02 Yes, sir. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 22:04 [laughs] Uh-

Aaron Siri 22:06 Amen.

Joe Rogan 22:06 Amen. [laughs]

Aaron Siri 22:08 [laughs] Yeah, I try not to do too much believing and I try to do a little bit of, you know, evidence-based thinking. But any event, look, when it comes to these products, uh, I save my beliefs for religion, the unanswerables, uh, where do we go when we die-

Joe Rogan 22:20 Right

Aaron Siri 22:21 ... uh, and so forth. I have to take a leap of faith, and I do it when I need to, but you-

Joe Rogan 22:24 Right

Aaron Siri 22:24 ... don't need to with these products. Okay, on the, on, on the first part of what you said, f-first of all, there are products probably that are far more important to humanity at the moment, no question about it, than vaccines, even assuming it had the results that you just claimed, which I'll address in a second. Imagine you, you said, you went, "Look, cars are essential. I mean, cars, you can't get an ambulance. You can't get to the hospital. Without cars, you can't get to work. You can't get the kids to school. I mean, it's essential to a functioning society, so let's give cars immunity to liability." Intuitively, you'd say, "That's ridiculous."

Joe Rogan 22:54 Right.

Aaron Siri 22:55 On the deaths point, that is one of the myths. That is one of the mythologies around vaccines that has developed over time, this notion that everybody in America would die without vaccines. Um, in chapter seven of my book, and I lay it out for every single disease, and what I do there is I say, "Okay, how many deaths were there in America the year before the vaccine was first introduced or widely, or in, or, or widely used or so forth," okay? A- in any d- real degree. And what you find is, if you go down the list, there were typically dozens to hundreds, maybe 1,000 or so deaths from each disease for which we vaccinate. The further back in time you go, the larger the, the, the number, but in that dozens to 1,000 or so deaths, okay? For example, measles, the dreaded measles that they say everybody will die from.No measles vaccine, we're all gonna die, right? That is the impression they give you. You have any idea how many people died of measles in the years before there was a measles vaccine in the United States? I mean-

Joe Rogan 23:59 How many?

Aaron Siri 23:59 About 400 a year.

Joe Rogan 24:00 That's it?

Aaron Siri 24:01 That's it. 400 a year-

Joe Rogan 24:03 Whoa

Aaron Siri 24:03 ... died in the United States at a time when everybody had measles, which comes out to about one in 450,000 Americans dying of measles. That's in the CDC. Anybody listening to this who's like, "Come on, that's not true," CDC mortality documents on the CDC website, cited in my book, 400.

Joe Rogan 24:19 And don't about 50,000 people every year die from the flu?

Aaron Siri 24:24 Well, that statistic is, uh, i- uh, um, includes bacterial, uh, deaths that they say are potentially the result from having influenza. But-

Joe Rogan 24:36 So your immune system gets weakened and then something else hits you?

Aaron Siri 24:39 Uh-

Joe Rogan 24:39 And that kills you? Is that the idea behind it?

Aaron Siri 24:42 It, i- th- well, that's just the way they gather the data-

Joe Rogan 24:46 Okay

Aaron Siri 24:46 ... is the way I'll put it. But, uh, um, with influenza... Well, let me fini- let me s- if I can finish up with the measles.

Joe Rogan 24:54 Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Siri 24:54 'Cause I think this is important on the measles one, and I can deal with influenza e- as well. But on the measles one, just to really, 'cause you're saying, "Well, everybody would die without these," I don't think people think of influenza, by the way. They think of measles.

Joe Rogan 25:08 Right.

Aaron Siri 25:08 They think of, uh, those diseases.

Joe Rogan 25:11 Right.

Aaron Siri 25:11 I don't ever hear anybody say to me, "Well, everybody will die of influenza without influenza vaccines." Everybody, it's available, everybody can get it. Uh, the mortality hasn't changed much. In fact, if you look at the mortality of influenza before influenza vaccines were widespread, we're not doing that great. Okay, anyway, putting that aside for a moment.

Joe Rogan 25:28 Not only that, isn't there data that shows that if you get it, you're more likely to get other colds?

Aaron Siri 25:35 Yeah, I have a whole, um, um, giant footnote in my, uh, book about this, and I, I've actually tweeted this out, and did a Substack about this, a whole series of articles, studies that show that those that have had the influenza vaccines, maybe, these studies often reflect, have around the same rate of influenza, maybe they have less respiratory influenza infections, but they, many studies show they have multiple times the rate of other respiratory infections. So good job. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 26:06 Mm.

Aaron Siri 26:06 Maybe you've reduced your risk of influenza by this much, but you've increased your risk of another different respiratory disease by that much.

Joe Rogan 26:13 How much is it? The, how much is the increase?

Aaron Siri 26:15 Depends on the study. Some studies show four times the risk, some studies show three times the risk. Yeah. I mean, literally three-

Joe Rogan 26:21 Four times?

Aaron Siri 26:22 ... four. I mean, huge percentages, so, and they're statistically significant in these studies. And so, you know, when you're looking at a... Now, these are all retrospective epidemiological studies. And, but when you do a retrospective epi study, which means you take existing data and then you study it, versus saying, "Okay, we're gonna do a study and follow people going forward," okay? Um, if you find like a 1.3 time, which means 30% increased risk, like that, that's a publishable finding. This is 300, 400% increased risk, yes, in many of these studies. It's inconvenient data, so obviously it's not talked about.

Joe Rogan 26:57 Right. Um, so 400 people is not a whole lot. I'm, I'm sure... I mean, it's sad when 400 people die, but, um, it's also one of those diseases that, um, when you're a child, it's much more survivable, right? Than adult. Adult, it's rough, isn't it?

Aaron Siri 27:13 Y- yeah, so m- measles, uh, the ideal age to get it is not when you're a, a, an infant, which, in the pre-vaccine era, infants typically did not get measles 'cause they got maternal immunity from the mother. And a, y- and you don't wanna get it as an adult, because it is more likely to cause problems. Which again, in the pre-vaccine era, wasn't a problem 'cause everybody virtually got it as a child. And-

Joe Rogan 27:38 Right.

Aaron Siri 27:38 Yeah. And s-

Joe Rogan 27:39 And when you got it as a child, um, my recollection of it was the episode of The Brady Bunch. Do you remember?

Aaron Siri 27:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:46 Remember that episode?

Aaron Siri 27:46 Yeah, they were laughing about it.

Joe Rogan 27:47 Let's watch this. Find that clip and let's watch it, because it's so indicative of what measles was actually like in the culture of the people that would get it all the time, versus this boogeyman-

Aaron Siri 28:03 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 28:03 ... of today. I mean, it, it is, it's so stark. It's so... I mean, it's like, imagine the kid coming home, "Hey, Mom, I've got AIDS, I gotta stay home from school." He, it's not that, right? It's-

Aaron Siri 28:13 It's the way that most folks who've had chickenpox think of chickenpox.

Joe Rogan 28:16 Right. Um, but we're told that it's killing people, and we're told that it's killing people now. We're told that it's killing y- it's always kids. They're, we're, we're told it's killing kids now.

Aaron Siri 28:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:27 And, um, look, if anybody dies from measles, I'm very sad, but I wanna know, is it with measles? Remember the with COVID or from COVID?

Aaron Siri 28:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:36 Like, what kind of condition were these people in before this hit, hit them? Because some, I mean, that was the thing about COVID, it's like, it, yeah, it's fatal. If you have four plus comorbidities, th- that's, it's more, you're more likely to be fatal, and that was most of the people that wind up dying from it, right?

Aaron Siri 28:53 Uh, that's m- almost certainly the case, and I can, I can add another data point to that to help support that, which is that between 1900, and this is, again, CDC data, between 1900 and the late 1950s or early 1960s, the mortality from measles declined in the United States by over 98%. You know what didn't cause that?

Joe Rogan 29:16 Vaccines.

Aaron Siri 29:16 Yeah, 'cause it didn't exist.

Joe Rogan 29:18 Right.

Aaron Siri 29:18 I know. So I-

Joe Rogan 29:18 Right

Aaron Siri 29:19 ... but, but-

Joe Rogan 29:20 So immunity had become a, a, a herd thing-

Aaron Siri 29:23 Oh-

Joe Rogan 29:23 ... just like COVID-ish right now.

Aaron Siri 29:26 Well, I, well-

Joe Rogan 29:26 E- everybody basically has had COVID or at least has been exposed to it by now.

Aaron Siri 29:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:31 Here it is. Watch. [laughs]

Aaron Siri 29:32 Yeah.

Speaker 29:32 It's a whole episode. There's multiple clips, so I don't know which one is the best one-

Joe Rogan 29:35 [laughs] No, he-

Speaker 29:35 ... but here's one I guess.

Joe Rogan 29:36 Just, just... L- let's just try. I think it's, he finds out, he's coming over. Put on your headphones for a second so we can hear this. Aaron.

Aaron Siri 29:43 Oh, yes.

Joe Rogan 29:44 Bring your head- grab your headphones.

Speaker 29:45 All right. Thank you.

Aaron Siri 29:46 [laughs] No. Are you sure it's the measles?

Speaker 29:48 Well, he's certainly got all the symptoms. A slight temperature, a lot of dots, and a great big smile.

Aaron Siri 29:53 A great big smile?

Speaker 29:54 No school for a few days.

Speaker 29:56 [laughs]

Speaker 29:57 Oh.

Aaron Siri 29:59 You've got measles

Speaker 30:00 Golly, mothers are supposed to know everything, but do you have to keep proving it?

Aaron Siri 30:05 Well, you've got a temperature, too.

Speaker 30:07 What do you mean, too?

Aaron Siri 30:08 Well, Peter was sent home from school a little while ago.

Speaker 30:09 Oh, what was his temperature?

Aaron Siri 30:11 Hundred and one point one.

Speaker 30:12 Oh, is that all? I'm a hundred and one point two. [buzzing] Oh, Greg, you on my railroad. I'll be a sport. You can ride on it free. Thanks a lot. It's your turn, Peter. I need six.

Joe Rogan 30:25 They're having a measles party. [laughs]

Speaker 30:27 Ah, missed it. Yep. Boy, this is the life, isn't it? [laughs] Yeah. If you have to get sick, sure can't beat the measles. That's right. No medicine. Inside or out. Like shots, I mean. Don't even mention shots. Yuck!

Joe Rogan 30:41 Okay. I mean, am I crazy or, or, or have we gone through the, one of the wildest gaslightings of anything ever? There's, there's people out there that because of the things that you've said so far about the measles will be one hundred percent freaking out on Twitter.

Aaron Siri 30:59 Uh-

Joe Rogan 31:00 Right? But this is, this is a window into how the American public thought... I know it's a television show, I know it's a sitcom, but you can't joke around about stuff that other people wouldn't think is funny.

Aaron Siri 31:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:12 Every... People would think that was funny, these kids saying, "If you're gonna get sick, you should get the measles," and everybody at home would be like, "Oh, [fake crying] I wish I had a day off."

Aaron Siri 31:20 Well-

Joe Rogan 31:21 That's how they thought of it.

Aaron Siri 31:22 Yeah. And to put hard data on it, going back to that statistic, over ninety-eight percent reduction, remember, it's not like COVID, Joe, because COVID, there was no immunity in the population, right?

Joe Rogan 31:35 Right.

Aaron Siri 31:36 Measles has been around for forever, as far as we know, thousands of years.

Joe Rogan 31:40 Right.

Aaron Siri 31:40 The year nineteen hundred wasn't the beginning of herd immunity. Nineteen hundred, measles was already endemic. Everybody was getting measles, so every year there's a few million people cohort that were getting it, and you had this decline, and so you have to ask yourself, what was the decline? Um, it was probably better sanitation, better med- acute medical care, I mean, um, all kinds of things. And you know who could take credit for most of that stuff? Better sanitation, uh, better living conditions, better, uh, you name it. Probably public health authorities, meaning the improvement in acute care, the introduction of antibiotics, better living conditions, not having sewage in the street, you name it-

Joe Rogan 32:22 Right

Aaron Siri 32:22 ... probably had a massive contributor to that reduction, but they never point to that. And there's one other really inconvenient data point with measles, and this is really where it gets upsetting for folks out there who you were just saying are gonna watch the show. And it's this: that re- over ninety-eight percent reduction in mortality, there's no reason that that curve was not gonna continue, 'cause pockets of the United States in the late '50s and early '60s were like a developing country. In a developing country, kids are gonna die of any infectious disease because of extremely poor living conditions. And as those improved, most likely that four hundred deaths also would've continued to decline. Four point two million births in the United States in the late '50s or early '60s, about three point eight million births today. So in fact, there's less children being born in America today than there was then, so you have a, you have a smaller cohort of babies, young children to infect. And final data point, and it's this, and this is really, uh, I, I know this is, this is gonna cause

Aaron Siri 33:23 cognitive dissonance for some, but studies that have looked at those that have had measles versus those that don't find that those that have had measles have a statistically significant greater, uh, reduction in, uh, deaths from cardiovascular disease and various cancers. So I'll give you an example. There's a twenty-year, twenty-two-year prospective study in Japan done by, funded by the government of Japan and major universities that tracked a hundred thousand people in Japan for twenty-two years, and it found that those that had measles and mumps had a twenty percent statistically significant decline in deaths from cardiovascular disease. Think about that for a second. Just think about that. About eight hundred thousand Americans die of cardiovascular disease. If eliminating measles and mumps has increased cardiovascular deaths in the United States by even one percent, on a life years lost basis, you are still way upside down on your public health benefit by eliminating measles.

Joe Rogan 34:29 Can I ask you what the speculation is at how that could be? Why, why would measles and mumps infection at a early age improve your r- your health cardiovascularly?

Aaron Siri 34:38 Why would it also, those that have not had measles have a sixty-six percent increased rate of Hodgkin-- non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and two hundred and sixty-six percent increased rate of Hodgkin's lymphoma, which kills twenty thousand people a year. Why would women that have had measles have fifty percent less ovarian cancer, which kills a lot of women every year? Um, w- what is it about it? Maybe, and here's the thing, um, I'm, you know, uh, and, and you can have evolutionary biologists talk about this as well, you've had some on. Think about it this way. Pathogens have come and gone throughout the ages, right?

Joe Rogan 35:12 Right.

Aaron Siri 35:13 The, this one didn't. Measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, they didn't. It could be, maybe, I'm not saying it is-

Joe Rogan 35:20 Right

Aaron Siri 35:20 ... I'm just saying this is what the data appears to reflect, what I just told you about with cardiovascular disease and cancer, they're all in PubMed. They're all PubMed studies, they're all in the published literature, and they're all consistent having the findings that I just described, okay? I'm, I'm just a lawyer. I'm just repeating to you what the data reflects. Um, it could be that having those febrile childhood infections conferred a survival advantage overall, and it could be the reason they never actually went away over time, became less obviously pathogenic.

Joe Rogan 35:50 So it has like a hormetic effect and it makes you physically stronger somehow or another. It makes your, uh, immune system stronger, your cardiovas- like a, a stress test.That, I mean, it's not outside the realm of possibility, right? I mean, if lift- lifting weights makes you stronger, and, you know, studying makes you smarter, wouldn't it ma- make sense that some form of infection that you recover from will make you more resilient? It does make sense. Um, it just, like, no one wants to say to, "Hey, you should go get measles."

Aaron Siri 36:18 Look, theory of relativity-

Joe Rogan 36:20 In this world-

Aaron Siri 36:20 Yeah, theory of relativity is not intuitive. Why is it as you approach a more massive object or approach the speed of se- light does time relatively slow down? I don't know if it makes sense or not. It's just what, when you put two-

Joe Rogan 36:33 Right

Aaron Siri 36:33 ... atomic clocks on a plane, one on the ground, one in the plane, you fly it around the Earth, they're not ticking the same, so there it is.

Joe Rogan 36:39 Right.

Aaron Siri 36:39 I, it-

Joe Rogan 36:40 You can't pretend that's not data

Aaron Siri 36:41 ... the data is what it is.

Joe Rogan 36:42 Right.

Aaron Siri 36:42 It doesn't have to make sense-

Joe Rogan 36:43 Right

Aaron Siri 36:43 ... to be true.

Joe Rogan 36:44 That's a good point.

Aaron Siri 36:45 That's just what it is.

Joe Rogan 36:46 That's a really good point.

Aaron Siri 36:46 And I'm just saying what the studies show. Um, very inconvenient, a lot of cognitive dissonance there, but it could very well be that our whole, this whole program, not only do we... So going back to your whole, going all the way back to your point, you're like, "Well, they'll say me- vaccines are so important, we gotta give them this immunity." No. I- in fact, quite the opposite. Our babies are so precious, are so important, we want to make sure we have the safest possible product you can have. And the way to do that is to make sure the companies have an economic interest to make sure they're as safe as possible.

Joe Rogan 37:20 I, I agree with you entirely, but i- if I was questioning anything, I would say, okay, if we don't have genetic immunity anymore, 'cause our parents didn't have it, 'cause our parents were vaccinated against measles, um, wouldn't it be better to keep vaccinating people rather than let a whole bunch of people with no immunity to measles get it, particularly like older people?

Aaron Siri 37:43 So y- uh, this is a really important point, actually.

Joe Rogan 37:46 Okay.

Aaron Siri 37:46 I, I, I, I, agree with you in the-

Joe Rogan 37:47 Because-

Aaron Siri 37:48 H- here's, here, well, I, I'll put it in context.

Joe Rogan 37:50 Can I just stop before we get going?

Aaron Siri 37:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:51 When, in, when they mandated vaccines, or when they started giving them to people, was what? In, like, the early '60s, I believe.

Aaron Siri 37:57 For measles vaccines-

Joe Rogan 37:58 For measles? Yeah

Aaron Siri 37:58 ... '63.

Joe Rogan 37:59 Did a lot of people resist it? Was it back then, were the hippies opting out? Were there, w- is there, like, a group that you could follow and track that never got it, never got the vaccine, while everybody else did?

Aaron Siri 38:11 Um-

Joe Rogan 38:11 It has to be, right?

Aaron Siri 38:12 I'm sure there's a, a group out there you can identify. I mean, the Amish.

Joe Rogan 38:16 There you go. Right.

Aaron Siri 38:17 So, you know-

Joe Rogan 38:18 Perfect

Aaron Siri 38:18 ... who we re- we represent right now, 'cause New York's trying to basically sh- kick them out of New York for not vaccinating.

Joe Rogan 38:25 That's crazy.

Aaron Siri 38:26 We just won in, we just, um, in the US Supreme Court, uh, we were just successful in vacating the lower court decisions just a few weeks ago.

Joe Rogan 38:34 Do you remember when Kathy Hochul was talking about the vaccines like they're a gift from God?

Aaron Siri 38:39 She believes it.

Joe Rogan 38:40 Did you, but do you remember how she was saying it?

Aaron Siri 38:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:41 It was like, in any other business, if you were running a pharmaceutical drug business, if you were running a, if you were running Chevy [laughs] and you're making a new Corvette, and you started talking about how this Corvette is a gift from God, everybody would go, "Oh, Kathy's cracked."

Aaron Siri 38:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:56 Like, "What are you talking about? It's a bunch of engineers. We put together a great car." Like, what are you... It's a gift from God. What?

Aaron Siri 39:03 People don't say, "I believe in tables," or, "I believe in chairs."

Joe Rogan 39:06 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 39:06 "I believe in TVs," and, "I believe in wallpaper."

Joe Rogan 39:08 Right.

Aaron Siri 39:08 But they say, "I believe in vaccines" all the time 'cause it carries a truism.

Joe Rogan 39:12 But d- do they work? Like, does the measles vaccine prevent people from getting measles? Or is it a leaky vaccine? Is it a completely...

Aaron Siri 39:20 S- so answering that and your prior question at the same time-

Joe Rogan 39:24 Sorry.

Aaron Siri 39:25 No, no, no. Don't be sorry. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 39:25 I'm very scattered.

Aaron Siri 39:26 No, you're not scattered at all.

Joe Rogan 39:27 That's all right. [laughs]

Aaron Siri 39:28 Is, is that, uh, uh, is that, uh, um, is that the measles vaccine, measles, m- MMR vaccine and chickenpox vaccine can prevent transmission. That is not true of most vaccines, but those can. So, um-

Joe Rogan 39:43 Th- those can.

Aaron Siri 39:44 Those can.

Joe Rogan 39:45 Can, yeah.

Aaron Siri 39:45 And so to your, now going back, so that's the differential. And in fact, for most of the other vaccines, like pertussis vaccine and so forth, they make you more likely to spread the pathogen if you're vaccinated, and I can tell you all about that. But before I do that, let me just point out that, to your last comment, because measles, MMR vaccine and chickenpox vac- vaccine can prevent transmission, you are correct. If measles were to come through society right now, right now, in the current time, it would be problematic because babies who aren't supposed to get it would be more likely to get it because the mothers aren't conferring the same eternal immunity that they did in the pre-vaccine era 'cause the vaccine doesn't confer the same level of immunity anywhere near.

Joe Rogan 40:27 Mm.

Aaron Siri 40:27 And older folks, um, uh, because the vaccine is nowhere as efficacious as having had the infection, depending on the study, 2 to 10% do not seroconvert even after two doses, meaning they are not getting immunity at all pretty much, or an immunity that's considered immune in a way.

Joe Rogan 40:44 Is this when they take it later in life, or when they take it when they're young?

Aaron Siri 40:47 Uh, th- this is when they take it w- when they're young. Um, and, and that's why when there's a measles outbreak, a lot of times you'll hear a call to even have folks who are older get the measles vaccine again, right? There's, there's-

Joe Rogan 40:57 Yeah

Aaron Siri 40:58 ... guidance on that because it doesn't confer. If you've had measles, you're done. You never need a vaccine. A- a- again, you'll never get measles again. One and done.

Joe Rogan 41:06 Right.

Aaron Siri 41:06 Um, but, um, so yes, it would be, it would be problematic right now for those, for, for MMR, measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox, to just kind of let it rip. Uh, you would have to really, uh, you know, have an, an educational campaign beforehand if you were gonna do that. But for the other vaccines, Hep B vaccine, pertussis vaccine, not a problem. Those vaccines don't stop transmission, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 41:32 The Hep B one's-

Aaron Siri 41:32 ... I can go into that

Joe Rogan 41:33 ... kinda crazy that they give that to babies. It's kinda crazy. Kinda crazy if the parent aren't intravenous drug users or, or whatever, whatever would give them Hep B, that you're, you're gonna inject a baby with a vaccine that prevents them from getting a sexually transmitted disease, and, like, a rarely sexually... You gotta be doing something rough, you know?

Aaron Siri 41:56 Y- yeah, Joe, you just don't understand what goes on in the NICU.

Joe Rogan 41:58 Uh.I mean-

Aaron Siri 42:01 Yeah

Joe Rogan 42:02 ... that's it, it just seems crazy.

Aaron Siri 42:04 It, it is, and here, I'll give you a, a, um, another data point, which is in Denmark, okay? There is no hep B, universal hep B for kids. The only time they give hep B in Denmark is if the mother is hep B positive. So their hep B vaccination rate amongst children is, like, .1% or something to that effect. Okay? So here you go, two first-world countries, America and Denmark, universal hep B here, n- virtually zero hep B vaccine given there. The rate of hep B amongst children, not statistically significant. You know what is different between those two countries? The rate of harm from hep B vaccine. That's different. You know what a baby's never died of on the first day of life? Hepatitis B. You know what a baby has died of on the first day of life? Hepatitis B vaccine. In fact, adjudicated as such not long ago for a, for a newborn that died from a hep B vaccine, and, um, I, I said earlier you can't sue the manufacturers. You cannot. There is a little program, though, in the federal government where you can bring a claim if you're injured from a vaccine. That's what I'm talking about right now, about the baby that died of hep B.

Joe Rogan 43:12 Right.

Aaron Siri 43:13 It's called the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. I have, like, 20 folks in my firm that do that work, and, um, you know, it's not like a regular court. You don't get an Article Three judge, Article Three of the Constitution, a federal judge. You don't get, um, any discovery as a right, which is how you prove harms. There's a $250,000 statutory cap in pain and suffering and on death, which is ridiculous. Um, and it doesn't have, you know... A- a- anyways, long story short, it's paid out about r- five billion dollars for da- for damages and so forth from vaccines over the years, but, um, um, so, so I didn't want people to get confused, like when I said, "Well, how, how did, how did this baby get adjudicated?"

Joe Rogan 43:46 Right.

Aaron Siri 43:46 It got adjudicated in this program.

Joe Rogan 43:48 Got it. Got it.

Aaron Siri 43:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:49 Um, so when you have conversations with people and they are the way you used to be and the way I used to be-

Aaron Siri 43:59 Yeah

Joe Rogan 43:59 ... where you just k- sort of j- just assumed that these, the people that are experts in their fields are doing a great job, and that's why we're alive, and you start telling them these things. Like, are you a, a real problem at a cocktail party? Like, do y- have you ever [laughs] have you ever, have you ever had a conversation that just went completely sideways and they started getting angry at you for quoting things?

Aaron Siri 44:22 Yeah. I-

Joe Rogan 44:23 'Cause that's a... It's, it's-

Aaron Siri 44:24 It's not a problem for me 'cause I don't have no emotions or feelings about the products. They're just products.

Joe Rogan 44:28 Right.

Aaron Siri 44:28 They're no different for me, but a lot of folks, um, they, uh, th- there's two things. First, for some, like medical professionals, a lot of them seem to derive a lot of their self-schema almost, the, the, their value, their worth from these products. They saved humanity. How could you question that? We are the saviors.

Joe Rogan 44:48 Right.

Aaron Siri 44:49 Right? In some respects, almost like supplanting God, right? What's the only thing that will save us during COVID? Was it God? No. Vaccines, that's the only thing. And then for others, they think that they know, okay? But they don't know intellectually. They've never looked at the primary sources, so when you challenge them with evidence, what can they draw from? The intellect? No. They draw from their emotions. They draw from their feelings, and that's why they get angry. I get that al-

Joe Rogan 45:14 Of course

Aaron Siri 45:14 ... I do get that all the, I get that all the time, but I also often get folks who are just curious and interested to listen.

Joe Rogan 45:20 Well, I think there's more of those now than there's ever been before.

Aaron Siri 45:24 Abso- absolutely.

Joe Rogan 45:25 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 45:25 I think COVID, in that respect, uh, forced the conversation. You had, um, millions of people who were listening to basic stuff that 10 years ago when I started doing this work, nobody talked about what is a placebo? What's a clinical trial?

Joe Rogan 45:38 Right.

Aaron Siri 45:38 What's this stuff?

Joe Rogan 45:39 Right.

Aaron Siri 45:39 Like, this became... Or even the idea that a vaccine can cause a harm was e- w- just that notion was totally taboo seven years ago.

Joe Rogan 45:48 Right.

Aaron Siri 45:49 No more.

Joe Rogan 45:49 Yeah. Um, I think you're entirely correct, and also credit to, to YouTube, 'cause YouTube doesn't suppress this stuff anymore, which is why I found dozens of interviews with you on YouTube. I mean, before I had a... I mean, I'd seen some of your stuff on social media, but then, you know, I've, I've watched a, a bunch of your stuff now on, on YouTube, whereas during the pandemic, everything you said, you would've got removed.

Aaron Siri 46:11 I was removed. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 46:12 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 46:12 Everything I said was removed. I'll tell you the first thing that I ever had posted that got sa- it was on a- it was on Twitter.

Joe Rogan 46:19 Yeah, the old Twitter.

Aaron Siri 46:21 I... So we brought this lawsuit against the FDA to get all the documents they relied upon to license Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, okay?

Joe Rogan 46:27 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 46:28 They, they licensed it in 42 days, and we said, "All right, if we got 42 days, give us all the documents," right? And they wanted forever. They wanted to produce at a rate of a few hundred pages a month, which would've taken hundreds of years effectively. Got a tranche of those documents, took some of them, literally took one of the documents and posted it, and my tweet was just literally quoting from the document effectively, and that was taken down as misinformation. Pfizer's own documents submitted to the FDA.

Joe Rogan 46:55 [sighs]

Aaron Siri 46:56 One of the first things. That, that was just, that was mind-jarring.

Joe Rogan 47:00 It was stunning. It was stunning to watch people not be outraged too. When information was getting out about different people that were silenced, Jay Bhattacharya, and all, all those different people that were getting attacked, Martin Kulldorff. It, it was stunning how no one was going, "Hey, what is going on here? This seems really weird that you're removing posts from guys from MIT and Stanford and, and banning their accounts. Like, that's fucking crazy." And until Elon purchased Twitter, we really didn't know the extent of it. We didn't really... We really weren't aware that it was government involvement, that they were stepping in to remove, and remove malinformation. That was my favorite. They came up with... You know that one?

Aaron Siri 47:41 Disinformation, malinformation, all-

Joe Rogan 47:43 Mal's the best-

Aaron Siri 47:44 ... positive. Yeah

Joe Rogan 47:44 ... because it's true information-

Aaron Siri 47:46 Yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 47:46 ... that might cause problems.

Aaron Siri 47:48 There you go. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 47:49 Which is fucking almost everything.

Aaron Siri 47:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:51 As soon as you have a problem with malinformation, like, you are encouraging the creepiest kind of groupthink that's available, and no one freaked out. Well, a few people freaked out, but not enough. It w- wasn't... It should've been bipartisan. Should've been a bipartisan freak-out. It should've been left and right, but it got politicized in this really stupid way where people on the left were pro-vaccine and pro-pharmaceutical drug company and pro-narrative, and people on the right were like, "I'm gonna take my chances." And those were the kooks, and, you know, it was this, like, ideological battle as much as it was a public health crisis.

Aaron Siri 48:26 Censorship was bad. It was very bad.

Joe Rogan 48:28 Real bad.

Aaron Siri 48:29 But I'll tell you what made me think people were gonna go into the street with pitchforks was when the government told everybody, "Stay at home." That wasn't hidden.

Joe Rogan 48:40 Right.

Aaron Siri 48:40 That wasn't behind the scenes, the stuff you're talking about. They said, "Stay in your ho-" They didn't say, "We recommend you stay in your houses."

Joe Rogan 48:50 Right.

Aaron Siri 48:51 They didn't say, "We recommend you get this vaccine. We recommend you wear this mask." They said, "Stay in your house." When the, the, when they had that first order came down, I was like, "People are just gonna be outraged. People are gonna protest." And when they didn't, that's what dismayed me personally, and I'll tell you why, okay? Because when you think about civil and individual rights, First Amendment, the right to free speech, the assembly, right? That was passed and adopted by the states in 1791. What's the First Amendment intended to do? To restrict government from infringing on those rights. You think life was easy in 1791? What do you think life was like in 1791? You think it was easy? You think it was all hunky dory? Life in seve- 1791 was brutal. Brutal. You wanna talk about disease, pestilence, famine, war? You wanna talk about a life that is no electricity, no running water, no sewage, nothing, and that amendment was passed for times that are more brutal than that, and here comes a virus, and every right you have is basically taken away, and Americans are like, [claps] "Take it. Take it away." That is what outraged me, because look, what was the whole point of this country? What, what, what is America born out of? In my view, it's born out of the, uh, the idea that every other government that preceded it got it wrong in the following sense. Your life should not be dictated by a king or a dictator or a, a, a politburo or a central authority. It's the idea that you are born with inalienable rights. You should be able to choose your destiny, including what risks you wanna take. Individual rights come with risks. Letting Joe Rogan say what he wants on this podcast comes with risks. Letting you practice what religion you want, assemble with who you want, especially in Austin-

Joe Rogan 50:54 [chuckles]

Aaron Siri 50:54 ... had a very interesting time yesterday.

Joe Rogan 50:56 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 50:56 That comes with risks, let me tell you. A lot of risks.

Joe Rogan 50:59 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 50:59 Okay? But the greater risk is always ceding that right to the government, 'cause once you do, you don't get it back often. And so-

Joe Rogan 51:06 Right

Aaron Siri 51:06 ... yes, there was that hidden stuff you talk about, and that's not... That was bad. Don't get me wrong. That was bad stuff. That's really, really bad. But, but the stuff they did in the open, to me-

Joe Rogan 51:16 Yeah

Aaron Siri 51:16 ... in some ways was, was even worse, and I hope that there's a lesson that folks learn from that, because let me tell you something. Even if you love every vaccine out there, you're listening to this, you love every vaccine. You love every mask, right? Great. I, I support every American's right. You're 17, you're 18, you're totally healthy, no comorbidities, and you wanna get a vaccine a day, wear 70 masks, and live in your basement in a self-imposed stay-at-home order, this is America. I'm, I support your right to do... I'll fight for your right to do that. And you're 90 and you're a war veteran, and you wanna go to the c- and you have 16 comorbidities, and you wanna go to the coffee shop with no vaccine and no mask, you should be free to do that, 'cause that's America, too.

Joe Rogan 51:53 Right.

Aaron Siri 51:53 That's freedom also.

Joe Rogan 51:54 Just like you can bull ride.

Aaron Siri 51:56 And if you don't stand up for that right now, the day comes when there's something, a medical product you don't want, the government says you have to get, because trust me, it is so much cheaper to lobby to get a medical product required than it is to market to get people to get it. Oh, they've learned that lesson. That's why there's so much lobbying to get mandates, get rid of exemptions across the country that you don't want, and you can't get a job, and you can't go to school, and you can't leave your house, then what good are the rest of your rights? They're useless. That's why medical liberty truly is a fundamental right. I'm off my high horse.

Joe Rogan 52:33 No, it's a great high horse. That was an awesome rant. You're absolutely 100% on the money, and, uh, it's... That's... It's such an important thing to, to get out there, to, to get people to understand that you c- you... The... It's such a natural human inclination to w- when you're in a per- a place of power, of control, any form of government, you want more control. And it's just natural. And what you're talking about when you lose rights, you very rarely get them back. That was so on display in California with the COVID regulations, 'cause they, uh, had everybody locked down way past where they had to. A friend of mine's brother worked in one of the COVID, mm, some government office when they were considering the closing of outdoor dining. And he brought up, "But it's n- there's no transmission related to outdoor dining." And the, the woman who was in charge said, "Yes, but it's all about the optics." So she was willing to, with a wave of her magic wand, shut down outdoor dining for a bunch of small family businesses that were probably barely staying alive after COVID. Barely. We lost... Somewhere around 70% of Los Angeles restaurants went under during COVID. That's fucking bananas. And so they finally get outdoor dining, like, "Okay, we can do... We can kinda pay the bills this month," and then they shut down outdoor dining for optics. So this, this, this kind of desire to just put a foot down, control people, keep a boot on their neck, it's normal, even if it doesn't make sense. Everybody knows that from high school. Everybody knows that from, I mean, the Stanford Prison experiments. People like to control people. They enjoy it. And when they get a place, like becoming the mayor or becoming the governor, and being able to tell people, "Well, you gotta listen to me. I've got rule. Everyone stay inside. Be scared," the-Fucking California, Garcetti literally had a campaign that said, "Snitches get rewards." Snitches.

Aaron Siri 54:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:42 Snitching on people, having more than one person over at your house-

Aaron Siri 54:45 [clears throat]

Joe Rogan 54:45 ... standing too close in the backyard. You get money. You get money for ratting out your neighbor. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. In honor of International Women's Day, BetterHelp is celebrating the women in your life. I think we can all appreciate everything the women in our lives have done for us, and everyone deserves a little self-care. A good way to get that is through therapy, because not only is therapy a time for you to focus on yourself, it's also a way to create balance and learn how to take care of your needs in your daily life. And BetterHelp, as one of the largest online therapy platforms, makes it so easy to meet with the right therapist. All you need to do is fill out a short questionnaire. You don't even need to go into an office to meet them. You can chat at home from your couch, in your car, before you hit the gym, or while you're walking your dog. Plus, if you aren't jiving with your first match, you can switch to a different therapist whenever you need. Your emotional wellbeing matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That's betterhelp.com/jre.

Aaron Siri 55:59 Well, when the government gets it wrong, they always, always double down because-

Joe Rogan 56:03 Yeah

Aaron Siri 56:04 ... and that's the problem with the mandates. Once they've required it, they have s- taken a position, and then to admit they're wrong, often what government ends up saying is, "Oh, well, well, we're the CDC. If we admit we're wrong about this, that's gonna hurt our ability to influence the public, and that's more important than admitting we're wrong on this or correcting course, because our legitimacy, our ability to influence the public is so important, we have to, you know, we can't admit we're wrong." That's what Bobby's doing right now on some of these things is, you know, is some of the stuff like y- the new autism page on, on the CDC website, for example, is, uh, i- is contrary to anything I've ever seen come out of the federal health authorities to date. But yes, it's, it's disturbing, and it's why government should n- no public health authority should ever be able to tell you and infringe on your rights. They should be able to recommend, recommend the law, recommend like crazy-

Joe Rogan 57:03 Right

Aaron Siri 57:03 ... but never do it because that is the normal course of how tyranny, dictators, bullies, thugs operate. First, they tell you what to do. You don't listen, apply a little pressure. You don't listen, then they mandate. You still don't listen, they censor you. Still, take away more of your rights. That is the normal progression throughout history, and we saw it happen in front of our eyes, which is why it's, it should be a line in the sand. Federal health authorities, state health authorities should be able to recommend and encourage, never mandate, ever.

Joe Rogan 57:39 Fauci literally expressed it that way. I'm sure you've heard that recording of him. He said, "Once people d- realize they can't go to work, they'll drop their ideological bullshit-

Aaron Siri 57:50 Yeah

Joe Rogan 57:50 ... and they'll get vaccinated."

Aaron Siri 57:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:52 Like, he's, he's essentially telling them-

Aaron Siri 57:55 Right

Joe Rogan 57:55 ... you're gonna make people's life hell, and they'll do what you want them to do.

Aaron Siri 58:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:00 Not they will have free will, they will have the ability to choose. No, no, no.

Aaron Siri 58:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:05 You will make them do what you want.

Aaron Siri 58:08 Yeah. Who wants a government that persuades you on the merits? Forget that.

Joe Rogan 58:12 But imagine that that's, that is something that someone said out loud.

Aaron Siri 58:16 But, but, but, but that... I don't think that what Fauci was saying is anything, uh... Fauci, everything in my view that you saw during COVID is not like some giant leap, um, into some new i- territory. To me, it's just another natural step in progression from where we've gone over the last 40 years with vaccines. Uh, Fauci saying that is no different than school mandates right now-

Joe Rogan 58:42 Right

Aaron Siri 58:42 ... for, to get children... M- most states have, 45 states have basically checked the box exemption to, to send your kids to school. There's about five that don't. They're trying to eliminate exemptions, right? Um, clearly they're able to persuade most parents on the merits, but yet they, they can't take it. They can't take that a 2, 3, 4% just will not take these products, and I, and I, you know... And I'll tell you, by the way, most of these folks are. They're the folks who really need the exemptions because, um, you know, most people who don't choose to take childhood vaccines, they don't typically just wake up and decide to do that for fun. Not many people wake up one day and go, "You know what I'm gonna do today? Eh, I'm gonna take a socially ostracizing position that might get my kids kicked out of school, me thrown out of my job, my friends call me an anti-this, an anti-that," um, you know, uh, you name it, all the horribles that come with-

Joe Rogan 59:33 Yeah

Aaron Siri 59:33 ... not vaccinating. No. Most people don't vaccinate, don't vaccinate because they've had a very, very personal or, or, or, or negative experience with these products, they or one of their kids or one of their family members, or they've learned stuff they cannot unlearn about them, okay? They have usually a very good reason not to. And yet, um, as you saw during COVID, th- it's not about, in many respects, the medicine, to the examples you gave. It's about they cannot stand that somebody is not agreeing with their beliefs. They cannot extend the exceptions, those who stand up, say, "No, I've come to a different medical conclusion." They-

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 Right

Aaron Siri 1:00:15 ... they can't let that exist.

Joe Rogan 1:00:17 Right. That, that is what it is. It, it, it... And it happens, uh, for people regardless of their religious status. It's a weird thing. It's like, it is like a religion. I mean, which is why I'm so glad you wrote your book that way because I think there's these natural patterns of groupthink and ofJust, just complying that people automatically fall into. It's very easy. That's why people can get people to join cults. That's why people, um, are a part of, like, weird Christian sects. Like, wait, what do you guys do? Huh?

Aaron Siri 1:00:51 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 You're like, "Who, who's the guy? Who's the head guy? This guy? And he gets to marry everybody? What? Okay. What?"

Aaron Siri 1:00:58 Well, well, well that's what ha- I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 It's normal. It's a normal thing.

Aaron Siri 1:01:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:01 And, and, uh, if you scale it outward, it goes to a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff that people just have these, like... Climate change is a religion right now. Like, there's certain people that if you confront them with v- like, the, the, the actual, the ones that are willing to q- question the narrative that are legitimate client scien- scientists, they'll tell you, like, it is so complicated to figure out what is causing the changes in the Earth's climate, warmth and cold, and the fact that it's never been static, ever, in human history. Never before humans, never millions of years. It's done this crazy thing. It involves the precession of the equinoxes and the fucking polar vortex, and there's a lot of... And then also stuff we burn. That, too. But, like, what percentage is what, and what... But it doesn't matter. You can't have that conversation.

Aaron Siri 1:01:48 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:48 It's like you questioning, you know, wh- whatever messiah this person believes in. They'll just lock down, and climate change is this... And not, not one climate change prediction of doom has been accurate. Not one. Not even in the ballpark. You remember the-

Aaron Siri 1:02:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:02:05 ... the fucking Al Gore movie?

Aaron Siri 1:02:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 We're supposed to be dead.

Aaron Siri 1:02:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:08 And meanwhile, they're all buying fucking f- oceanfront houses in, in Maui. You know, get out of here. Shut the fuck up. This is another thing.

Aaron Siri 1:02:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:17 This is another thing. Like, yeah, we shouldn't pollute. Yeah, we shouldn't release particulates in the atmosphere. Yeah, we should have clean energy. Yeah, but also, you guys are crooks. You guys are a bunch of crooks that are making money off of this idea that you're forcing down everybody's throat that everybody's got a Green New Deal, and everybody's got to do renewable this or renewable... And then who's got money invested in all this stuff? A bunch of people who are pushing it, and it's a fucking scam, just like so many of these things are fucking scams. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of the damage that we're doing to the Earth. We should probably stop overfishing the ocean. We should probably stop dumping shit into the rivers, 100%. You know who used to go to court for that?

Aaron Siri 1:02:58 Bobby.

Joe Rogan 1:02:58 RFK Jr. [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:03:00 Yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:03:00 You fucking cranks. The guy-

Aaron Siri 1:03:03 Oh

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 ... who was, like, cleaning up the East River, that's Bobby Kennedy Jr.

Aaron Siri 1:03:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 He was the guy.

Aaron Siri 1:03:09 And, and an easy way to identify that somebody's not really coming at you with science, and they're coming at you with belief-

Joe Rogan 1:03:16 Yes

Aaron Siri 1:03:16 ... religion-

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 Yes

Aaron Siri 1:03:17 ... is exactly what you just said, which is they're not willing to debate. They're not willing to discuss it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 Exactly.

Aaron Siri 1:03:24 They're not willing to engage because that is antithetical to the scientific method. The whole idea is it's never settled. The whole idea is you push the fringes, you push new theories, you push new ideas. Where would science be if you said, "This is it"? Of course, that is the whole notion of it, dispassionately looking at it over and over and over and seeing what more you can learn. And the moment somebody says, "No, we need to stop. You can't discuss, you can't debate that," that's when you know you're dealing with a religion, not science.

Joe Rogan 1:03:53 And when I've talked to certain scientists in different fields that, uh, feel very constricted by the academic environment, one of the things that they point to is that the groupthink involved in that is just like the groupthink involved into everything, in left-wing politics, whatever it is, just figure out whatever it is, right-wing politics. Groupthink in academia is also higher... It's hierarchical. There's, there's tiers, and you gotta agree with everybody that's above you. You wanna get tenure, you wanna progress, you wanna get grants, y- it's gotta be... You guys gotta be in line on all this shit. And he's like, "And anybody who thinks out of the box is ruthlessly attacked. And even when they turn out to be correct, no one apologizes. No... They, they're, reluctantly agree that the person was initially correct, but they'll destroy their career if they can." He's like, "The, the pissing matches are horrifying," and these are the people that are in charge of telling you what's real in the world. They're just like everybody else. They're, they're... They have ego, and there's a fucking social scramble going on at all times, and people are playing succession in Game of Thrones. It's like, it's... The reality is not what you're being told in the news. What you're being told in the news is a narrative, and when the news has a giant chunk of their money for advertising that's paid by pharmaceutical drug companies, and they never criticize them, you're like, this is wild. Like, this is wild that this, this is America in 2026, and the only way you can find out what's kind of real is on the internet.

Aaron Siri 1:05:29 Uh, y- yes, and, uh, also, um, when it comes to censorship, if I said some totally crazy, stupid thing about you that was totally untrue-

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 Right

Aaron Siri 1:05:42 ... you'd be like, "Ignore it." If I said it about government, they ignore it. When do they censor? They censor when it's true, 'cause that's when they're scared.

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 Right. If you start talking about the government being lizard people, nobody's gonna-

Aaron Siri 1:05:53 Nobody cares

Joe Rogan 1:05:53 ... nobody comes for you. They're all shape-shifters. Nobody cares.

Aaron Siri 1:05:57 But when you start talking about something that's true, that's when it hurts. That's when they... That's what they need to suppress. You think they need to suppress stuff about, um, I don't know, a certain island with, uh, that [laughs] ...

Joe Rogan 1:06:09 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:06:09 Well, if it's not true, no. But if it is true, that's when it gets scary-

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 Right

Aaron Siri 1:06:14 ... and that's when you need suppression.

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:06:16 Uh, and also I'll note, I went to Berkeley for law school, so I, I'm, I'm familiar with a little bit of what you were just talking about-

Joe Rogan 1:06:22 Yeah. Oh, my-

Aaron Siri 1:06:23 ... from that experience, too. It was t-

Joe Rogan 1:06:24 You were deep.

Aaron Siri 1:06:24 Even though it was over two decades ago [laughs] , it was going strong back then.

Joe Rogan 1:06:27 It was going strong back then, but it w- I feel like it was much more reasonable. Like, I used to love San Francisco back then. It was a, it was a-

Aaron Siri 1:06:34 Wow

Joe Rogan 1:06:34 ... great town to visit. They were smart. They were cool. They were laid back. People liked to drink, but they were fun. Very... They, they always seemed like a smarter LA that got out of show business.

Aaron Siri 1:06:44 San Francisco, Berkeley-

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Yeah, it's another-

Aaron Siri 1:06:46 ... the university were two different things.

Joe Rogan 1:06:48 Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Siri 1:06:48 I completely agree. And even in... I mean, if y- let's go outside the bubble of Berkeley from 20 years ago. Look back over 20, 20 years ago. Who was fighting for civil individual rights? It was the left.ACLU, think about Skokie, Illinois, right? Fighting for the neo-Nazis to be able to march through a Jewish town to say what they want. Who fought that case? Who protected their right to say that? Democrat. ACLU.

Joe Rogan 1:07:15 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:07:15 Liberal lawyers and liberal judges-

Joe Rogan 1:07:17 Right

Aaron Siri 1:07:17 ... and they said protecting their right to say the things they're saying, as despicable, as horrible as we might find it, protects all our right to free speech. Could you imagine those same folks today bringing that case and deciding that way? No way.

Joe Rogan 1:07:30 No way.

Aaron Siri 1:07:30 No way.

Joe Rogan 1:07:30 And what's stunning is that if you asked anybody alive then, if you had ultimate access to information, literally you could pick up your phone and ask it any question about anything and get information instantaneously, would people be more or less informed? You would say, well, certainly they'll be more informed, so they'll be more understanding of the value of free speech, and they'll know more about that ruling and what a brave stance they took to allow the KKK to march and how it just shows intellectual superiority. The way to beat a bad idea is not to silence it, it's to argue it with a much better idea.

Aaron Siri 1:08:11 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 That you would think by 2026, oh, they'll, they'll be way better. This will be a super advanced society of flying cars. No. No. No. It's, um, more ideologically captured, more wrapped up in the algorithm, which I think is probably at least 50% fake. 50% is, uh, a bunch of bots tweeting a bunch of shit that's, you know, they don't even believe. They're just trying to rile people up and stir people up-

Aaron Siri 1:08:36 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:08:37 ... and, and f- push certain narratives. And then people are locked into it 12 hours a day, so they're really crazy, and no one's considering things like the import... Well, y- let's go back to old cases and let's look at why they did that. And it's like, no, no, no. Everybody's, like, captured with whatever the fuck is on TikTok today. What's the latest stupid thing you're supposed to be paying attention to? And the fact that now we're at war, right? Okay, great.

Aaron Siri 1:09:02 It, it... Social media and the scrolling through those videos, which is what you're describing-

Joe Rogan 1:09:06 Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:09:06 ... I think, is so troubling. Um, be- first of all, my understanding is that they just show you stuff that confirms what you already believe because that's what you wanna see. You wanna see the things that you already agree with. So you just get this incredible confirmation bias that happens, which is antithetical to, to, to thinking critically, to really opening your mind to it, and then you end up, you know, uh, without... 'Cause without actually understanding both sides of an argument, without really understanding it... I mean, look, I understand the stuff about vaccines that I know which ones stop transmission-

Joe Rogan 1:09:37 Right

Aaron Siri 1:09:37 ... and I know which ones don't, right? And I don't have to live in the world of believing, for example, they all do. I know how much death there was before each vaccine, and I know... So I don't have to say, "Didn't ever save any life," and I don't have to say, "Millions would die." I just, the data's the data, right? And, and but you're not- if all you're getting is one viewpoint all the time, you're not... You get this terrible confirmation bias. And did you see this recent study that I, I did, I just read the, um, the, the abstract, so I didn't delve into it. But apparently watching social media, uh, reduces your IQ over time, you know, just doing all of that scrolling. That's, that's really scary when you think about-

Joe Rogan 1:10:16 It makes sense

Aaron Siri 1:10:16 ... our current generation. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:18 Imagine if it could make you smarter, how many more people would be interested in doing it?

Aaron Siri 1:10:21 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:10:22 Right? Like, if there was a thing, if you could just-

Aaron Siri 1:10:23 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:10:23 ... stare at your phone for a few hours a day, and you'd-

Aaron Siri 1:10:25 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:10:25 ... get significantly smarter.

Aaron Siri 1:10:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:26 Like, it's a 10-point jump in IQ.

Aaron Siri 1:10:29 You know, my wife calls our Wi-Fi at our house-

Joe Rogan 1:10:30 What?

Aaron Siri 1:10:31 ... she found the Wi-Fi. It's called Read a Book.

Joe Rogan 1:10:33 Ah. [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:10:33 I'm not kidding.

Joe Rogan 1:10:34 That's funny.

Aaron Siri 1:10:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:35 That's funny. Uh, and then you hear things like you shouldn't have Wi-Fi in your house 'cause all the signals flying around are bad for you. You're like, "Well, how bad? Are you sure?" Like, what is that? Like, how long have we been doing the Wi-Fi thing? A decade? Two decades? Three decades?

Aaron Siri 1:10:49 I mean, in the course of, of the length of humanity, that's not very long.

Joe Rogan 1:10:53 That's not very long.

Aaron Siri 1:10:54 I mean, look, I-

Joe Rogan 1:10:54 I hope Wi-Fi's not killing us. I really do. It's so convenient.

Aaron Siri 1:10:58 Look at most, most... Listen, obviously, most things that will just kill you get identified.

Joe Rogan 1:11:04 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:11:04 It's not the things that kill you immediately that are a problem, typically, 'cause-

Joe Rogan 1:11:08 Right

Aaron Siri 1:11:08 ... they killed you, and so you know.

Joe Rogan 1:11:10 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:11:10 It's the things that, that cause slow issues, uh, ongoing issues. I mean, we know folks who work on high power lines have higher, far higher rates of cancer. Study after study reflects that, for example.

Joe Rogan 1:11:21 Which makes sense. I mean-

Aaron Siri 1:11:22 Right. I mean, and look for the-

Joe Rogan 1:11:24 If an iPod's bad for you, you know what I mean?

Aaron Siri 1:11:27 I don't-

Joe Rogan 1:11:27 If AirPods are bad in your ears-

Aaron Siri 1:11:29 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:11:29 ... imagine being next to those power lines. What does that do to you?

Aaron Siri 1:11:33 I don't want to go d- down this rabbit hole, 'cause it's not my, my area, per se. But for the whole length of humanity, right, when you think of the, of, of, of the, the spectrum, right, we were pretty much only exposed to natural light, which is a very narrow light, narrow band of the, of the spectrum, okay? Right? When you think of waves. So as you go down on the left side of the spectrum, the waves get longer, like AM waves, really long-

Joe Rogan 1:11:56 Right

Aaron Siri 1:11:57 ... FM waves, microwaves, natural light, and then above that you get X-rays, cosmic rays, and anything above natural light, they say, "Oh, that's really bad. That's just gonna mess you up." And stuff below natural light, they s- they say, "Well, as long as it doesn't heat up your cells," that's typically the standard our government uses, "it's safe." So as long as it's not heating your cell. But that's not... That's a very old standard, but it's still the one in effect today. So, um, in any event, when you think about microwaves, they said stay away from them, even though it's below natural light. There's, um, you know, uh, what is the cumulative effect of being... If you put your Wi-Fi router under your bed every night your whole life, what is the effect? There are numerous studies that show that it does have certain effects. But, uh, I, anyway, it's not worth going down that road, but yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:45 But it might just be minor, or it might be cumulative, right? Yeah, and then how about cell phone signals? You can't even stop those. They're around you all the time.

Aaron Siri 1:12:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:55 I mean, if you can FaceTime someone in New Zealand right now from your phone, clearly something's going on in the air.

Aaron Siri 1:13:00 Uh, I'll put it this wayEvery environmental insult has the potential to cause some kind of dysregulation in your body, whether it's microplastics, whether it's, you name it, okay? And the precautionary principle would indicate that until you know it's safe, the onus is on those who wanna expose you to it to prove to you it is, right? It shouldn't be the other way around. I don't think anybody has to prove to you that Wi-Fi is not safe to say, "You know what? Based on the precautionary principle, I'm just gonna turn off the Wi-Fi every night at my house," because I don't know. Like, that doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Because humans have been exposed to it forever. I've not seen the studies that validate that it doesn't cause an issue or, or, or large robust studies, and so, you know, it, it... But obviously, I think what I just said might, some people might hear and go, "Well, that sounds crazy." But why?

Joe Rogan 1:13:50 Why, I, why would it be crazy if we, we found out that there's a particular frequency that's bad for your memory or bad for your brain and that we're using it to broadcast something? That, that completely makes sense.

Aaron Siri 1:14:01 Yeah, except that I never think about harms the way you just said it, because that would indicate that we have to find out what harms it causes.

Joe Rogan 1:14:10 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:14:10 I, to me, when I go into a car dealership, for example, I walk in and, and, and the, and the salesman says, "All right, this car, okay?" And I say, "Well, is it safe?" And the car dealer says to me, "Prove to me it's not safe." And I said, "Well-"

Joe Rogan 1:14:27 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:14:27 And I said, "Well, what, what do you, what do you, what do you mean?" "Uh, uh, if you can't prove it, you gotta take this car."

Joe Rogan 1:14:33 Oh, God.

Aaron Siri 1:14:33 By the way, that's how vaccines work. That's how I li- And that is the, that is become a little bit of the, depending on the, mostly for vaccines, but a little bit for some of these other products, where it's like, "You gotta prove it's not safe." "No, I don't have to prove it's not safe. I'm not buying this car. You prove to me it's... No. You prove to me this vaccine causes harm, or you better take it." Uh, that's the way it's approached. And a little bit like that Wi-Fi and with all, with, with 5G and the LTE and all that stuff, it's almost like, "You prove to me that doing this all day is gonna cause brain cancer or else you're a kook." Uh, no, why don't you show me the study shows it doesn't do that? That's the way it should work with products and product safety.

Joe Rogan 1:15:09 That, that makes sense. That's very reasonable. Um, a- again, I, I don't know. I'm, I'm not saying that it does. But what I'm saying is there's been things that human beings did, and they found it was really bad for you. We've talked about it a few times, but those ladies, they used to tex, uh, test the X-ray machines-

Aaron Siri 1:15:26 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:15:27 ... with their hands. And, um, no one told them, no one told them that X-rays can give you cancer and fuck you up, and these poor ladies, every day, when they would show up at the medical office, they would put their hand in the X-ray machine to make sure it worked. And then you see their hands next to each other, and it's horrifying. Like, they got horrible lesions on their hands, and it's like, it's really creepy.

Aaron Siri 1:15:47 They X-rayed pregnant women until the '70s.

Joe Rogan 1:15:50 Geez.

Aaron Siri 1:15:50 They, until the '70s, they were X-raying pregnant women, not with the X-rays of today that are far less radiation exposure, the X-rays of the '70s-

Joe Rogan 1:15:57 Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:15:58 ... which was a lot. They gave the, I believe the Nobel Prize, I, this, I'm not, I'm pretty sure about this, for the lobotomy.

Joe Rogan 1:16:05 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 1:16:05 If I'm not mistaken.

Joe Rogan 1:16:06 I think they did. I think you're right.

Aaron Siri 1:16:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:07 I think they did.

Aaron Siri 1:16:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:08 Find that out.

Aaron Siri 1:16:09 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:16:09 Jamie, put, put that into our sponsor Perplexity.

Aaron Siri 1:16:12 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:16:12 The Nobel Prize, Peter Berg told me about the origins of it, and I was like, "Wait, what?"

Aaron Siri 1:16:17 Ah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:17 It was a guy who made dynamite.

Aaron Siri 1:16:20 Dynamite, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:20 And there was a false story about his death, and in the newspaper, it, they called him the Merchant of Death, and he realized it, and he was like, "Oh, shit, I gotta change my PR. I gotta change my image." And so he came up with the Nobel Prize.

Aaron Siri 1:16:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:35 They started awarding this prestigious prize, and then instead of him being connected with blowing people up with dynamite, he became connected with, uh, the most prestigious prize in all of s- medicine and all of government and the peace, the Nobel Peace Prize. It's pretty crazy.

Aaron Siri 1:16:54 It's amazing when you have money-

Joe Rogan 1:16:56 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:16:56 ... how you can influence the world to think certain things about, in his instance, him-

Joe Rogan 1:17:02 Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:17:02 ... in others, certain products. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:17:04 Yes. Yeah.

Aaron Siri 1:17:04 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:17:04 It's, but it, what's really stunning is you're also allowed to influence the people that actually deliver the news.

Aaron Siri 1:17:10 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:17:10 Which is, you know, that's the crazy one. Like, Callie Means talked about that. Like, they're advertising not because they wanna sell their products with the advertisement that they're putting on the air. Well, they're, they're doing that too, but they're also ensuring that this steady stream of revenue that's going to these networks, they won't be opening up any lines of in- investigation into the vaccine injuries. Like, that's not gonna happen. You're not gonna see a giant CNN piece about COVID-19 vaccine injuries. It's not happening. It's not happening. You're not, you're not gonna hear much about anything. It, it's gonna be a, it has to be a big fucking story where they have to say it, or they'll just mention a judgment real quick and then move on. Moving on.

Aaron Siri 1:17:55 Uh, the Rasmussen poll, uh, I, I don't know if you remember this one, found that, I believe, one in four, and I'm not, I think that's right, but I'm not sure, 100%, people said they believe they knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine-

Joe Rogan 1:18:10 Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:18:10 ... or knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine. When you have that many people with that, with, with that lived experience, and yet the mainstream media, as you just said, was still able to continue to push the narrative around COVID vaccines the way they did, the Nobel Prize. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:18:26 Wow. Nobel Prize related lobotomy refers to a 1949 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine awarded to António Egas Moniz, a Portuguese neurologist, for developing the prefrontal lobotomy.

Aaron Siri 1:18:40 I believe that continued until the '60s, by the way.

Joe Rogan 1:18:43 Yeah, imagine that. He got that prize in '49. They were like, "Good job."

Aaron Siri 1:18:46 Meaning the medical profession-

Joe Rogan 1:18:48 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:18:48 ... as it stood in the '60s when the measles vaccine was rolling out-

Joe Rogan 1:18:51 Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:18:52 ... was still doing this, by the way.

Joe Rogan 1:18:52 Oh, yeah.

Aaron Siri 1:18:53 Just by, just by the way.

Joe Rogan 1:18:53 I think they stopped lobotomies in '60... Was it '67?

1:18:57 He developed something called a leuc- leu- leu- leucotomy, which was slightly different than what became known as the lobotomy, which we know as, like, the ice pick method.

1:19:06 Ugh.

Aaron Siri 1:19:07 What was his-

Joe Rogan 1:19:08 But it said also called the leucotomy.

1:19:10 Ugh.

1:19:10 So that was, uh-

1:19:12 This, the Freeman, that's the guy who was like the doc- I think they called him even Dr. Death or something strange like that.

Aaron Siri 1:19:18 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:19:18 For he did like, he did a ton of lobotomies all over the country.

Aaron Siri 1:19:21 Well, unfortunately today you don't need a lobotomy apparently to have a lobotomy.

Joe Rogan 1:19:24 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:19:24 Just, just spend a lot of time on social media and get your information from certain places and-

Joe Rogan 1:19:29 It's so bad for people

Aaron Siri 1:19:29 ... seems to be so you, you can maybe end up in the same place.

Joe Rogan 1:19:32 It's just hard, hard to recommend a certain amount of it. It's like how much, uh, Twinkies should you eat in a day? I don't mind if you eat Twinkies, but if you're eating Twinkies all day long, you're gonna be fucked up, man. And that's how I feel about, like, social media interactions. But I do think it's an important way to distribute, uh, information. It's, if you're a, a whist- say if you're working for some corporation and you know something fucked up is going on and, and you could put it up on Twitter and with, with st- details and facts and, and people could look into it, and you can open up a line of, of reporters and investigative journalists that are gonna find this, expose it, and you could really break a story that is, like, good for everybody. Like, the, the having a way to communicate ideas like that is fantastic. Everything else, [laughs] like all the arguing, all the shit that people do back and forth, you're just rotting your brain out, and we're all guilty of it-

Aaron Siri 1:20:25 Well, well-

Joe Rogan 1:20:25 ... if you're on it

Aaron Siri 1:20:26 ... I mean, during the COVID pandemic when all of these government overreaches were occurring, but for the existence of social media, you know, podcasts like yours and other alternative platforms, right? The information in many respects wouldn't have come out if you didn't have Peter McCullough on-

Joe Rogan 1:20:45 Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:20:45 ... Robert Malone on. Um, and if Fox and some, just that little portion of the, I guess, more traditional media sphere wasn't willing for a time period to have folks on, I mean... And let's, trust me, when I started doing me- vaccine-related work a decade ago, n- I never thought a single outlet, whether it's Fox or CNN, would ever have me on.

Joe Rogan 1:21:04 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:21:05 They had me on numerous times until, you know, vaccines kind of were like, "All right, let's not touch that again."

Joe Rogan 1:21:10 Was this during, this was during the Biden administration then, and I think part of that was because it was a point of contention between the right and the left, right? It was the right opposing the, um, draconian measures that the left, who was in power, and we gotta get the right back in power 'cause it's, we're all about freedom. You know, so I think there was a little bit of that going on there, right?

Aaron Siri 1:21:31 Um, for sure there was some of that going on, as you pointed out, I believe in the past. Um, when Trump was promoting the vaccine, "We're not taking that vaccine."

Joe Rogan 1:21:40 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 1:21:40 And then the moment Biden was like, "We're taking the vaccine," so-

Joe Rogan 1:21:42 Kamala Harris was saying it.

Aaron Siri 1:21:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:21:43 Why would you trust him and whatever his vaccine is? Like, that is so crazy.

Aaron Siri 1:21:47 I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:21:47 These people are fake

Aaron Siri 1:21:48 ... I mean, if Trump came out tomorrow and said everybody should get every vaccine out there, I'd, you know, see what would happen. I don't know, maybe-

Joe Rogan 1:21:55 [laughs] That's the way

Aaron Siri 1:21:56 ... these folks would, would stop taking it.

Joe Rogan 1:21:57 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 1:21:58 So.

Joe Rogan 1:21:58 If he really got into trans kids, they'd put a ban to it immediately. Yeah, it's, um, it's weird. It's weird to watch, weird to watch us, uh, so divided and at each other's throats. And, uh, I really do think that a, a giant percentage of the uptick in the craziness is just social media. I don't think people are designed for it. I just thank God Elon bought Twitter, because if he didn't-

Aaron Siri 1:22:21 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:22:21 ... we would not have the, the kind of access to the, the actual truth or the real data. It would all be suppressed. You would never find out about it. How would you know about these studies? No one's gonna, you're not gonna go scouring through journals. And even if you do, what are you gonna do? You gotta get on Rumble and talk about it?

Aaron Siri 1:22:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:22:37 That's probably the only way you can, and if anybody from Rumble tries to share that on a Twitter, they'll get banned. So it's like, we were in a s- we were in a real pickle. It was a bad spot.

Aaron Siri 1:22:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:48 And it was just a few years ago.

Aaron Siri 1:22:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:50 Which is nuts.

Aaron Siri 1:22:50 We could've gone a very different direction, and I'll-

Joe Rogan 1:22:53 Very different

Aaron Siri 1:22:53 ... use an analogy. When they... Remember the airlines, you know, because CDC required masks on planes.

Joe Rogan 1:22:58 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 1:22:59 When that got struck down by the courts, okay? Um, a number of airlines said, "We're gonna keep our mask mandate." I don't know if you remember that. You know, they proudly came out, the CEOs said, "We're gonna keep it." Half of them said they were gonna keep it, the other half immediately lifted the mask mandate on planes. And those that decided to keep it, they dropped it within a day or two, I think, or something like that.

Joe Rogan 1:23:19 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 1:23:19 Really rapidly, because economically they were losing business.

Joe Rogan 1:23:22 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:23:23 And I think that, that changed the center of gravity on that issue. I think Elon buying Twitter, X, um, basically sent, changed the center of gravity on censorship, whereby without that, they might have all just kept going even in the worst direction. And they saw they were losing market share to X once he bought it and he didn't have censorship. I think that conformed their conduct.

Joe Rogan 1:23:47 Well, it was also, it was indicative of how people actually felt versus what was suppressed. Like, when you realize that there's... Well, v- he, have you ever seen, like, how people identifying as non-binary and trans dropped off, like, like sh- right after purchase of Twitter? It's 'cause people got a chance to talk about it now, and you can criticize it, and people can put up memes, and they can call it a mental illness again. And then all of a sudden everybody was like, "Hey, what are we, what are we supporting? Men with penises in the women's room? Like, did we get hypnotized? Like, what the fuck happened?" And now you're seeing even prestigious mainstream media publications-

Aaron Siri 1:24:26 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:24:26 ... talking about the dangers of g- gender transition for young kids. Wow. Okay, so what happened? What happened? What happened was Elon bought Twitter, and people were out to actually accurately gauge what people were willing to tolerate and what they actually want versus what's being shoved down everybody's throats with censorship and with mainstream media narratives. They just keep piping back and forth, pretending everybody agrees with them. But-

Aaron Siri 1:24:53 That's one piece of it. They're also, by the way, a lot of the hospitals and doctors are getting sued.

Joe Rogan 1:24:58 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:24:58 All left-

Joe Rogan 1:24:59 That's a very good point

Aaron Siri 1:24:59 ... and right-

Joe Rogan 1:25:00 That's a very good point

Aaron Siri 1:25:00 ... on this. In fact, you know, we've-

Joe Rogan 1:25:02 Especially after that first ruling, right?

Aaron Siri 1:25:04 W- we have, you know, um, um, [tsks] I, um, eh, I can't talk about it, but w-

Joe Rogan 1:25:12 It's okay

Aaron Siri 1:25:12 ... v- very, very troubling-

Joe Rogan 1:25:14 Well, there was that-

Aaron Siri 1:25:15 ... matters-

Joe Rogan 1:25:15 ... one grueling-

Aaron Siri 1:25:15 ... which includes suicide and hiding it from parents.

Joe Rogan 1:25:18 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 1:25:19 Um, school districts hide... I mean, it's really troubling stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:25:22 Do you have children?

Aaron Siri 1:25:23 Yeah, I do

Joe Rogan 1:25:24 I do too. And one of the things you realize if you have children is that they are very malleable and they wanna fit in, and they are subject to social contagions. And that social contagion could be dressing up goth, it could be like whatever it is. Like they wanna fit in.

Aaron Siri 1:25:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:40 And they're experimenting. They're kids. And if you just decide, "Oh, you're a boy," and then you bring the boy- that kid to a... And you're giving them all this positive attention, and all... You're giving them all this positive feedback, and then you go to school, "I'm trans now," and everyone says you're brave. Like for awkward kids, that is absolutely enticing.

Aaron Siri 1:25:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:59 And not only that, they do it in clusters. Like Abigail Shrier has written about this, that this is a lot of these girls have autism, and a lot of these girls, they're socially awkward, and they're very uncomfortable with their body. And they're going through puberty, which kind of freaks them out already, freaks out any girl.

Aaron Siri 1:26:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:14 And then something comes along like this, and now you've been taken to a doctor and had your breasts removed, and you're 15. That's fucking crazy. And to say anything in opposition to that somehow became you're a bigot or you're a Nazi or you're transphobic. This is crazy talk. Like, you're talking about very malleable children doing something... You can't even get a fucking tattoo if you're 15. Why can you get your breasts removed? That's nuts.

Aaron Siri 1:26:44 And unfortunately, it became a very big business. The number of centers in America that perform these surgeries exploded. And so with that explosion, you need clients. Every, like every business, it needs to feed, right, that business model, right? And so, um-

Joe Rogan 1:27:02 That is so evil. It's so creepy to think that people are willing to talk people into that just for money. But they've done it with so many other things. It's, it's not, it's not impossible to believe that it's true. I-

Aaron Siri 1:27:18 It's-

Joe Rogan 1:27:19 It's scary

Aaron Siri 1:27:19 ... a lot of times if you follow the money trail, you can see how things develop and where they go. It often helps, you know, puts it in perspective. And look, pe- uh, rare is the person that says, "I'm evil. I'm bad." I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:27:32 Right

Aaron Siri 1:27:32 ... people find a way to justify things. They find a way to excuse them and, you know, find, you know, the, "Well, I'm doing more good than bad," a... You know, justification in their minds.

Joe Rogan 1:27:43 Or there's the diffusion of responsibility that comes with being a part of a corporation that's doing something. "Hey, look, I'm just an accountant," or, "Hey, I'm just an engineer," or, "Hey, I..." You know? "I'm doing... I'm not... I b- I don't want the company to move in this direction, however, I do own stock, so-

Aaron Siri 1:27:56 Oh, I see [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:27:56 ... as it goes up." [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:27:57 Especially, especially in publicly traded companies, which brings-

Joe Rogan 1:28:00 Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:28:00 ... us back to the very beginning of this.

Joe Rogan 1:28:01 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:28:02 Which is, you know, that, that is what happens in those corporations.

Joe Rogan 1:28:05 Should that be a thing?

Aaron Siri 1:28:07 What?

Joe Rogan 1:28:07 Like, if you could redo the... If you had a magic wand and you could completely redo the economy, would you have the stock market? I mean, isn't it enough that people just buy things, sell things, your company's worth money because it makes money? Isn't that enough?

Aaron Siri 1:28:23 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:28:23 Why, why do we have to complicate it? I, why, why do we have a stock market? What-

Aaron Siri 1:28:28 I, I don't know if the stock market itself is the problem. I mean, stocks, the whole idea is just to find a, you know, a, a, a, a, a more... A efficient way for me to sell you shares in my company.

Joe Rogan 1:28:40 I get it.

Aaron Siri 1:28:40 That's all it is. But the underlying problem is not the market, in my view. It's not the existence of the stock market. It's the government i- interve- intervening into the w- n- market forces in a way that do not result in a good outcome. Oh, and, and often that is at the behest of industry. When government... There, there needs to be some government regulation.

Joe Rogan 1:29:03 So that's the problem. The problem is-

Aaron Siri 1:29:04 I think that's-

Joe Rogan 1:29:04 ... that corporations have money. They can use that money to influence laws, influence government.

Aaron Siri 1:29:10 I th- uh, that c- that is a significant part of the problem-

Joe Rogan 1:29:14 Right

Aaron Siri 1:29:14 ... because look, most regulatory agencies are born out of some crisis when you... Right?

Joe Rogan 1:29:20 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:29:20 So, uh, they often start as a great idea, like people wanting to do good, members of our Congress wanting to do good. But then who's got the time, money, and inclination to influence that regulatory agency? You?

Joe Rogan 1:29:32 No.

Aaron Siri 1:29:32 Well, you do have some money, but you? Me? Uh, who? Uh, no. It's going to be even with-

Joe Rogan 1:29:38 Lobbyists

Aaron Siri 1:29:38 ... even, even with, even, even wealthy folks don't have it. They don't... They're not gonna do it. The very... It's not even the lobbyists per se. It's the very industry they're trying to regulate. They have the money, time, patience, inclination to do that, to create the revolving door, right?

Joe Rogan 1:29:55 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:29:56 Think about it like this. Article One of the Constitution creates Congress, right? First article. And what's its g- purpose? Primary purpose is to pass laws, right? How many laws a year does it pass, do you think, approximately? About 200, okay? Our agencies on the federal go- government, do you know how many regulations which have the same exact weight as law are pa- they pass every year?

Joe Rogan 1:30:19 Can I guess?

Aaron Siri 1:30:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:21 2,000.

Aaron Siri 1:30:22 It depends on the year, but often more. So-

Joe Rogan 1:30:24 Really?

Aaron Siri 1:30:25 Yes. Um, there's a chart on this that I'm sure can be pulled up, but, uh, it's not... But it's something to that effect. Depends on the year, but somewhere between, let's say, 100, 300 to thousands on the other side. And who are those folks passing? Are they part of the Article One, the constitutional branch that's supposed to pass laws that are elected representatives? No. They're unelected bureaucrats sitting there, and you name your alphabet agency that you've probably never heard of, that pass these regs that are the same force of law. And who's really has the, again, the time and inclination to influence them? It's often the very industry. So it starts as a good idea, but unfortunately it ends up being, uh, what, what the literature calls... This is the political science literature. Came out of Harvard and Yale and all those places. They don't wanna talk about it today. Captive agencies.

Joe Rogan 1:31:18 Mm.

Aaron Siri 1:31:18 Okay? That's what they often become. CDC, FDA, and very much are to varying degrees, depending on w- what they're doingare very much captive agencies when you look closely at it and you understand it. Um, that's true of many other parts of the government, and so-

Joe Rogan 1:31:36 Well, particularly people don't know, a lot of people don't know that haven't gone down these rabbit holes, that a lot of these people, it's a revolving door. They leave the FDA, and then they go and work for the pharmaceutical drug companies, and they make a lot of money.

Aaron Siri 1:31:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:31:51 Which is-

Aaron Siri 1:31:52 Like Julie Gerberding-

Joe Rogan 1:31:53 ... crazy

Aaron Siri 1:31:53 ... who was the head of the CDC in the '90s that oversaw some of the most controversial disputes about what? Whose products? Merck's vaccine products. Okay? And then after her, you know, she, she cleaned all that up, left CDC and went to work for who? Merck. Making s- uh, tens of millions of dollars, I believe she's made over the time that she's been there. So she did good, she got rewarded. You think if she didn't do good, she wouldn't get rewarded? Do you don't think other people see that in the federal health? Of course, they know. They all know.

Joe Rogan 1:32:27 Of course.

Aaron Siri 1:32:28 Of course they do.

Joe Rogan 1:32:28 So it's the golden parachute, and everybody strives for it. If you can get that post-

Aaron Siri 1:32:32 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:32:33 ... if you can get the top of the food chain over at the CDC, guys, see you in about five years. [tsking]

Aaron Siri 1:32:38 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:32:38 Within five years you're thinking about your Lamborghini, you got a yacht in your future.

Aaron Siri 1:32:44 Well, I, I-

Joe Rogan 1:32:44 It's just, it's kooky.

Aaron Siri 1:32:46 Yeah, I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:32:46 It's kooky that it's legal.

Aaron Siri 1:32:47 Look, I, I don't know if it's as nefarious to that in the minds of, of, of people in public health, let's put it that way, uh, uh, 'cause we're talking about public health officials. I, but I, I think that the... It has a corrupting influence that cannot be detangled from the fact that they're human. It will influence them. I don't think it's like-

Joe Rogan 1:33:06 There's also a precedent. There's a precedent that's been set with many people before them-

Aaron Siri 1:33:11 Yes

Joe Rogan 1:33:11 ... so it's something they look forward to. If you get this job, you will likely get a job like this-

Aaron Siri 1:33:16 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:33:16 ... afterwards. A bunch of people have, and so you think about that while you're trying-

Aaron Siri 1:33:20 Right

Joe Rogan 1:33:20 ... to get that job. It's part of the motivation is financial reward.

Aaron Siri 1:33:23 A- absolutely. Well, there was a-

Joe Rogan 1:33:25 It has to be

Aaron Siri 1:33:25 ... there's a Ph- Pfizer executive who was serendipitously recorded specifically saying that.

Joe Rogan 1:33:32 Oh.

Aaron Siri 1:33:32 It's something... It's in my... I, I have the exchange in my book, and it's something to the effect of, "Well, you know, those who are working at the FDA, you know, are s- they, they, you know, they, they're eventually gonna, you know, come work for industry, so they don't wanna, you know, hurt industry too much." And the, the person asking the question says, "Well, you think that's bad?" He goes, "Yeah, it's bad for America. [laughs] You know, but, uh, not bad for the companies."

Joe Rogan 1:33:55 That's the problem.

Aaron Siri 1:33:56 That's exactly right.

Joe Rogan 1:33:57 Well, this is the thing about having an obligation to your shareholders, which brings me back to the whole stock market thing.

Aaron Siri 1:34:02 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:34:02 I know this is a kooky thought, but, I mean, if we never had the stock market in the first place, and you didn't have an obligation to your shareholders to consistently make more money every quarter-

Aaron Siri 1:34:11 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:34:11 ... if people could just, like, accept the fact that you own this business, this person own... You make a certain amount of money. Everybody's doing great. Like, why, why have all these people making money just moving stocks around-

Aaron Siri 1:34:24 Oh

Joe Rogan 1:34:24 ... insane amounts of wealth, manipulating systems to crash stocks and... There's, there's people that are, like, in public office that say things that aren't necessarily true that influence the market, and then it turns out they were totally wrong, and then you find out that they bet on it, and they made a bunch of money in the stock market. This is just crazy.

Aaron Siri 1:34:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:43 This is crazy, and it's all true, and it's all, it's all legal, which is so fucking bizarre that in a, a, a, a, a, a time where we're completely aware that all this stuff is taking place.

Aaron Siri 1:34:57 All right. Can I put that into three different buckets?

Joe Rogan 1:34:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please.

Aaron Siri 1:34:59 I'm gonna put it in three different buckets. There's the bucket of making products.

Joe Rogan 1:35:02 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:35:02 There are companies that make products. There are companies that, that provide services, including-

Joe Rogan 1:35:05 Right

Aaron Siri 1:35:05 ... financial services that can be useful, like you need a mortgage if you wanna-

Joe Rogan 1:35:08 Right

Aaron Siri 1:35:08 ... buy a house. You can't afford it. So mortgage products are a pr- a service that are brought up by the financial industry. And then there's, I think, what you're talking about, which is the part of our economy that is finance. It, it, and it's just moving money.

Joe Rogan 1:35:20 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 1:35:20 It's just moving numbers, where they've got, you know, uh, high-speed computers that are trying in micro fractions of a second to beat out the other guy to basically triage and make money based on-

Joe Rogan 1:35:31 Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:35:31 ... that adds no value to our economy. Uh, you know, products and services add value, and, and to, to, to, to our... Everything you see around that we're sitting in right now was made by a company, right? And so, um, um, and I'm not aware of a system that has been more efficient at producing products and services that improve the lives of others than the free market system, with some regulation, okay? I haven't... I, I'm not aware of one. Socialism doesn't do it. We've seen that in action.

Joe Rogan 1:36:05 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:36:05 Communism does not do it. We've seen that in action.

Joe Rogan 1:36:07 We need to just do it right.

Aaron Siri 1:36:08 Dictators, none... But, so-

Joe Rogan 1:36:10 I'm kidding

Aaron Siri 1:36:10 ... so [laughs] no.

Joe Rogan 1:36:11 Clearly.

Aaron Siri 1:36:12 So, so I wouldn't throw out the whole system is what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that-

Joe Rogan 1:36:16 I'm not saying that.

Aaron Siri 1:36:16 Yeah. I'm saying that-

Joe Rogan 1:36:17 Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:36:17 ... that, that part of it's good. Now, when you break the alignment of mark- of, of economic self-interests of the companies, the market interests, to whatever it is, protect consumers, that's when you have a problem. And that is the idea, or at least they sell it as the idea from a lot of government regulations. Well, the govern- the company is not on its own going to do what's right in this instance, so we need government to do it. And if government really only stepped in when it was truly needed, it would be a good system. You're right.

Joe Rogan 1:36:56 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:36:56 But the system often breaks when they step in f- when they're not needed, and sometimes when they step in and have the opposite effect, when they're really just protecting the industry at the expense of consumers, which happens too often.

Joe Rogan 1:37:11 I- is the benefit of the stock market... Look, and I'm... This is, again, nonsense.

Aaron Siri 1:37:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37:15 Right? I'm, I'm not an economist, clearly. But if we had never in- invented it, if human beings had never come up with this idea, if instead we just had a free market, w- what has the stock market, what has publicly traded companies, what has the ability to own stock in companies and hedge funds and all that stuff, what has that, what has that done for innovation and for progress and for creating more products? Do you think it's encouraged more products and encouraged more activity in the economy, and we're further ahead than we would've been if no one had invented it? 'Cause it seems like it, at the very least, it's a weird... opening for people that just move money around and add no value and extract enormous amounts of wealth. So that seems like you got a l- a hole in your pipe. Like, why are people that aren't even involved, why do they get to make all the money on this? Like, what is going on here? It's a- you're doing a weird thing that I don't know if you had to do to achieve the same result that you achieved with a free market capitalist society that doesn't have a stock market, that just has a bunch of companies making money and everybody doing the stuff they do. Is like, is it an, a, a necessity is what I'm asking?

Aaron Siri 1:38:30 Well, outside of my area of expertise, but [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:38:32 Definitely outside of mine. [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:38:35 Um, I, I mean, I'll give you my musings.

Joe Rogan 1:38:37 Yes, please.

Aaron Siri 1:38:38 Uh, so this is just my off-the-cuff musings, and that's something I'd actually really wanna think about more. But, so when I think about, you know, companies going public, um, it certainly appears to help drive capital to those companies because hedge f- um, you know, venture capital funds, a lot of times their exit strategy. So I'm willing to give you all this... I'm a venture capital. I'm willing to give you all this money to start this company because I know at the e- you know, uh, my goal is three to five years from now it can go public, and I, the venture capital fund, can get back X amount of my money. That's my, that's the exit strategy a- for that investment. Now, if there was no efficient market to, to, to do that, right? Meaning you couldn't just have any, a publicly traded market where just easy to shell- sell sh- right? To have this public offering.

Joe Rogan 1:39:37 Mm-hmm.

Aaron Siri 1:39:38 What, what would that do to venture capital funds? Well, I g- I mean, would they still invest as much? They might, and instead they might just focus on hard money returns.

Joe Rogan 1:39:47 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:39:48 Right? They want companies that really just make money, um, you know, cash on cash versus this immediate bubble of, of, of equity inflation that happens when you go public because it's now liquid-

Joe Rogan 1:40:01 Right

Aaron Siri 1:40:01 ... the ownership.

Joe Rogan 1:40:02 Right. Market caps.

Aaron Siri 1:40:04 Um, I don't know if that answers your question [laughs] but that's like-

Joe Rogan 1:40:06 No, it does.

Aaron Siri 1:40:06 I, well, I, I don't think it does because, you know, your question was a good one. It's, it's far more sophisticated than what I'd answered because you're saying wh- what, what does it contribute to society?

Joe Rogan 1:40:18 Right. I don't think it contributes anything.

Aaron Siri 1:40:19 It tributes... I just answered it so narrowly and said, well, it might add some... It might entice venture capitalists, though I don't know if... I don't even know if that, what I just said is entirely cor- like, they might still do it anyway, 'cause they'll just might do the best thing. Now, what does it add to society overall to have liquid, uh... I mean, it'd be harder to have, like, a retirement account in the way you have right now to own stock, right? That would be more difficult to put your money in and buy shares of Coca-Cola. Would you prefer for big corporations to be owned by s- you know, certain families, or would you rather them be owned by the public?

Joe Rogan 1:40:54 I think you should be a- allowed to keep your company in your family if you own it.

Aaron Siri 1:40:59 Well, you should... Well, you-

Joe Rogan 1:41:00 Yeah. So-

Aaron Siri 1:41:00 You certainly can look at-

Joe Rogan 1:41:02 If you decide-

Aaron Siri 1:41:02 ... look at The New York Times.

Joe Rogan 1:41:03 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:41:03 The New York Times, the family kept control, if I, my understanding, again, we're outside of my normal area of expertise, but the, the family, at my understanding, has the controlling sh- uh, of, of votes in that company, but it's publicly traded as well, New York Times.

Joe Rogan 1:41:16 Yeah. Well-

Aaron Siri 1:41:17 If I'm not mistaken

Joe Rogan 1:41:17 ... I know people that have taken their company public and regretted it. Like, it's too much shit. You deal with too much nonsense afterwards, and then they're like, "It wasn't worth it. Uh, just for the hassle and the quality of life, I'd, I would've never done it if I had known this."

Aaron Siri 1:41:33 I, I guess it depends what they wanted.

Joe Rogan 1:41:34 Yeah. I guess it depends what they wanted. But-

Aaron Siri 1:41:36 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:41:36 ... but the question is, like, if a bunch of people are making money that aren't contributing, they're just, like, siphoning money by moving money around all over the place, like, isn't that leaky money? Like, if you don't really contribute anything, you don't provide any value, and yet you're extracting extreme-

Aaron Siri 1:41:51 All right

Joe Rogan 1:41:51 ... wealth, don't you have a leak in the pipe? It seems like if that money was just being distributed normally, like the buying and selling of goods and services-

Aaron Siri 1:41:59 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:41:59 ... that would be a much more like honest society. But would it have the same amount of in, in, uh, uh, uh, would, would it have the same amount of innovation, and would it have the same amount of, uh, productivity? Or is that productivity not just enhanced by this flood of capital but also encouraged so it, like, stimulates everything? So, like, having these vampires sucking on the pipe, like, ultimately it does move numbers around and it gets more stuff out there and it, which also encourages innovation. I don't know. 'Cause-

Aaron Siri 1:42:35 I mean, I, I think that there's a gray... All right. I think there's a gray area between the second and third bucket. So we, we were talking about, like, products and services, maybe we'll make that one bucket 'cause those can have value to society from m- many of them. And then there at the extreme there's, like, just, like, triage nonsense that happens, you know. I put my supercomputer as close as possible-

Joe Rogan 1:42:56 Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:42:56 ... to the, you know, the, the, the stock exchange.

Joe Rogan 1:42:58 The, the, the supercomputer, the stock exchange.

Aaron Siri 1:43:00 And so I can, like, make money on fractions of a fraction. Like, that's, that's like the-

Joe Rogan 1:43:04 Yeah, it's crazy.

Aaron Siri 1:43:04 And then there's something... Then there's, like, that gray zone in between where there's, you know, mortgage is good, okay?

Joe Rogan 1:43:13 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:43:13 Help the Amer- uh, American family achieve their dream of owning a home. Now, uh, uh, mortgage-backed securities? Ooh, maybe not so good. Mortgage-backed securities that are double, triple sliced into all these tranches? Getting worse. Uh, going down that road, like, there's a degree where you're, you're getting further and further away from the very point of that financial instrument that was, that had good. So I, I think that there is, there is a point at which, yeah, no good. Um, but, but I think we... It's hard to talk in generalities in my mind. Like, if you have a specific-

Joe Rogan 1:43:45 Right

Aaron Siri 1:43:45 ... example, let's go down that road.

Joe Rogan 1:43:46 Well, Bernie Madoff's the best example.

Aaron Siri 1:43:49 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:43:49 Right? Uh, obviously-

Aaron Siri 1:43:51 Bernie

Joe Rogan 1:43:51 ... everybody had to know something was, there was some shenanigans taking place 'cause the returns were too crazy. But look out how many intelligent people invested money with him because he was so successful.

Aaron Siri 1:44:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:44:02 Just-

Aaron Siri 1:44:03 My old office in, in Manhattan when we used to work at Latham & Watkins was I think three floors above Bernie's office in the Lipstick Building. It was on 23rd. I think it was on 24. Nothing to do with him. Anyways-

Joe Rogan 1:44:14 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:44:14 ... [laughs] Zero. Um, okay, yeah, but Bernie, Bernie just straight up-

Joe Rogan 1:44:20 Stole

Aaron Siri 1:44:20 ... just stole. I mean, that's not, that's not even a thing.

Joe Rogan 1:44:23 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:44:23 Come on. He just-

Joe Rogan 1:44:23 No, no, no, you're right

Aaron Siri 1:44:24 ... he just made... He just, he just stole-

Joe Rogan 1:44:27 Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:44:27 ... money and gave out, like, fake returns as far as I know.

Joe Rogan 1:44:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah. He, he had people thinking-

Aaron Siri 1:44:33 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:44:33 ... that they were making all this money.

Aaron Siri 1:44:34 Yeah, he just-

Joe Rogan 1:44:35 There was nothing there

Aaron Siri 1:44:35 ... it was a pyramid scheme basically-

Joe Rogan 1:44:37 100%. Yeah

Aaron Siri 1:44:38 ... that was eventually gonna fail. I mean, it, it only can go on for so long.

Joe Rogan 1:44:41 Well, I think it fucked up because of the 2008 crisis, right? They think he could've kept it going if there wasn't the crash. It wasn't that what did him in?

Aaron Siri 1:44:49 There's always gonna be a dip, so it was only a matter of time.

Joe Rogan 1:44:52 Yeah, I think-

Aaron Siri 1:44:52 I mean, he was gonna get-

Joe Rogan 1:44:53 That was a big one, though, and people wanted their money back, and he was like, "Yikes." [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:44:57 Just, I mean, yeah. [laughs] That's an incredible... It's an incredible scheme. It's, it's amazing that somebody-

Joe Rogan 1:45:02 But it just-

Aaron Siri 1:45:02 ... could even pull that off, frankly.

Joe Rogan 1:45:04 It is crazy, and it is incredible, but it just shows you that this is a w- a weird system that you, you can pretend to be moving money around when you don't have any products and you don't-

Aaron Siri 1:45:12 But it corrected.

Joe Rogan 1:45:13 It did. He... It's a good point 'cause he did go to jail.

Aaron Siri 1:45:15 He corrected.

Joe Rogan 1:45:16 But boy-

Aaron Siri 1:45:16 He went to jail

Joe Rogan 1:45:17 ... imagine-

Aaron Siri 1:45:17 And man, is he becoming the poster child of, like-

Joe Rogan 1:45:19 Yeah, don't do that

Aaron Siri 1:45:20 ... Wall Street fraud. Don't do that.

Joe Rogan 1:45:21 Don't do that. He became, "Don't do that."

Aaron Siri 1:45:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:45:24 It's just, uh, it's probably a stupid question because I don't know anything about economics, but I was just thinking that, like, couldn't we have the same world and not have that? Wouldn't that be more honest and more beneficial? But it would have to have happened from the beginning. It would have to be like there was never publicly traded companies from the beginning.

Aaron Siri 1:45:46 All right. Let's, let's think of a company you like. Like-

Joe Rogan 1:45:48 Coca-Cola.

Aaron Siri 1:45:49 You like Coca-Cola?

Joe Rogan 1:45:50 I like a little Diet Coke every now and then when I want some brain fog. [laughs]

Aaron Siri 1:45:53 All right. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:45:55 I don't want a nice taste in my mouth and an aspartame hangover.

Aaron Siri 1:45:58 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:45:59 Uh, okay.

Aaron Siri 1:46:00 No.

Joe Rogan 1:46:00 I'll think of another one.

Aaron Siri 1:46:01 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:46:01 Um, Chevy.

Aaron Siri 1:46:02 Chevy. Okay, Chevy.

Joe Rogan 1:46:04 Okay.

Aaron Siri 1:46:04 So I don't know. W- without, um, without the ability to raise money in liquid capital markets, would Chevy have grown to what Chevy became, or at least in the, in the, in the, in the speed at which it did that then revolutionized automotive and other industries? I-

Joe Rogan 1:46:21 Probably not.

Aaron Siri 1:46:22 M- maybe not?

Joe Rogan 1:46:22 Yeah, maybe not.

Aaron Siri 1:46:23 Maybe not.

Joe Rogan 1:46:24 But it... What you wonder-

Aaron Siri 1:46:25 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:46:25 ... like if people were motivated and, and people were ambitious, and we always have been, you know, like if that wasn't a part of our economy-

Aaron Siri 1:46:32 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:46:32 ... I wonder. I bet it, I bet it has a pretty big impact when you put it that way, you think about something as big as Chevy, you know? But it's just the motivation of money is always going to be there, and if people ignore it because it's inconvenient and it doesn't align with their ideology, you've been captured. And this is why I think what you're, you're talking about all the time is so hard for people that are true believers to swallow because it, it makes you have... You're forced to reformulate your entire worldview. If you've been duped that hard by something like the actual data on vaccine efficacy and, you know, who's really profiting and why it's set up the way it is and what the studies really are, w- when you realize you've been duped that hard, it's, that's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.

Aaron Siri 1:47:25 Absolutely, but I will say this, you don't need to go down a rabbit hole, okay, 'cause that happens to a lot of people with vaccines I've seen. N- not the majority, not most, but it happens to some where it's like, "Oh my goodness. If the government's lying or not telling me the truth about these products, then what can I believe?" And I w- and, and, you know, people, some folks can go down s- some, some different alleys, and I would say that I w- I really, truly, I've not seen anything like vaccines. Vaccines really are in their own bucket because of that immunity. It's what I call original sin in my book. There really is no product, no product that I'm aware of that operates in this kind of landscape. Like I said, every other product, the market force will for, to varying degrees with wrinkles, correct for the issues because there's economic self-interest. They broke that with vaccines. So we've gone from three shots following the 198- in 1986, one before the first year of age. At the beginning of 2000, 2025, you know how many shots it was that a baby got on or before their first birthday? Take a guess.

Joe Rogan 1:48:36 72.

Aaron Siri 1:48:36 No, no, that's, that's, uh, that's their whole childhood. 29.

Joe Rogan 1:48:39 29-

Aaron Siri 1:48:39 Three-

Joe Rogan 1:48:40 ... for the first birthday?

Aaron Siri 1:48:41 Yes, on or before their first birthday. Went from three to 29 shots, including in utero. Now with d- with the recent changes, it's down to 19. And the reason I focus on the first year, most of the shots in the first six months of life, is that's when the baby is going through really critical stages of n- uh, of, of, um, neurological, immunological development, right? Synapse. And think how small a baby is, okay? And so, um, um, they're really susceptible to various effects. Also, babies can't express what, what's, what's going wrong with them, okay? So now i- in the normal course, okay, in the normal course, you've got a product. You've gone from three of them in 1986 by the first year. You're up to 25, 29 beginning of 2025. Now you're at 19 still. And during that period you've gone from under 10% of kids had a chronic health issue in the early 1980s according to the data. You now have over 40%. Some data show over 50% of kids having chronic health issues, often multiple times the rate, okay? And what are those chronic health issues that have exploded? To be sure, by the way, any environmental insult can cause dysregulation in the body, okay? Including a pharmaceutical product, including vaccines. But when you look at those, um, chronic diseases that have exploded, almost all of them have an etiologyRelating to some form of immune system dysregulation. Look at asthma, look at atopic issues, look at ticks, look at ADHD. You know, nobody thinks about it this way, but if you look at the PubMed literature, there's, uh, uh, immune markers that have gone awry in kids with ADHD. Okay? So you look at that. Now, I'd say, okay, the lawyers, those who would hold these companies accountable, would look at that, and then they would start looking at the data, and I'll show you some, what some of the data shows. We talked about the Amish earlier, for example. Okay? The Amish that I represent in New York, um, there's three schools. The New York, uh, health department decided that it doesn't like what the Amish beliefs are. It wants the Amish to adopt their beliefs and abandon the, their real religious beliefs and to give their kids these vaccines. Otherwise, they were gonna impose crushing fines on these three Amish schools. Three schools, by the way, which means a room, no electricity, a teacher, you know what I mean? On Amish land. They don't take tax money. They pay taxes, but they refuse to take tax money, taught by Amish teachers. And so w- we, amongst those families of those three schools, there was like 160 or something kids, and what we did is we, we did a survey. We asked them, "What health conditions do those kids have?" Those 160 kids, many of them are already older, too, so you would know their health outcomes. And this is all in our court papers. This is all on a federal docket. Anybody can go and read it for themselves. Okay? Amongst those children, you would expect to have... Because, like, one in 10 kids approximately have asthma, you would expect to have, like, nine cases of asthma. You'd expect to have six cases of this, five ca- They have none, zero of the chronic health conditions plaguing kids in America today. And the approximately 10 or so studies that have been done, and I'm gonna bring this back to my legal point, the approximately 10 or so studies that have done that compared kids with no exposure, meaning zero vaccines, to kids that have had one or more vaccines show the same outcome. Kids with zero vaccines, almost none of the chronic health issues that face kids today in America. Kids with one or more vaccines, multiple rates of the chronic health issues facing kids today. Now, that data all exists. I, those, I put those studies in my book. Anybody can read them. I even put the Amish information in my book. It's all cited. You can go look at it yourself if you're out there. Some of them are even on PubMed. The market could have corrected for that if you could hold those pharma companies accountable, but you can't.

Joe Rogan 1:52:34 Um, is it correct that the only instances of autism they found in Amish kids were adopted kids?

Aaron Siri 1:52:42 Um, there are data and some reports that reflect that, but if we... So there are that, but those are more news reports. Those are not... Somebody will criticize you, by the way. You're gonna get criticism and say, "Well, that's not a peer-reviewed study."

Joe Rogan 1:52:59 Well, I had an, a follow-up question that would maybe clarify.

Aaron Siri 1:53:01 Yeah. Well, a- and so, uh, we can say, w- we can go move on to what does the peer-reviewed literature show if you want.

Joe Rogan 1:53:08 The, well, the follow-up question would be-

Aaron Siri 1:53:10 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:53:10 ... are they even being diagnosed?

Aaron Siri 1:53:12 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:53:12 So if they're getting Amish care and Amish teachers and Amish l- uh, is it possible that there are some kids that are just behaving odd that would be diagnosed? Like, this is the criticism.

Aaron Siri 1:53:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:53:25 The people say... Like, this is, when you hear some mainstream suit talking on television, "Well, there was always someone odd when we were kids."

Aaron Siri 1:53:32 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:53:32 You know? There's no... They just... The diagnosis is different today. That's why it's one in 12 boys in California. They're over-diagnosing. And I'm like, "No." No, I, I have friends that have, I have multiple friends that have non-verbal children. That, that, I'd never had that when I was a kid. That was not normal. That was not a common thing. It was very, very, very rare.

Aaron Siri 1:53:52 The notion that, uh, autism is just better diagnosed and that's the only reason for the increase is, um, I don't know a better word for it. I'm gonna say nonsense, okay? Um, uh, uh, even if you look at the... 'Cause they've changed the DSM-V, which is what we're up to, the di- diagnostics manual. That is the, uh, s- s- the psychiatric manual that has the criteria for diagnosing autism. It has changed over time, but when you even just look at severe autism, just severe autism, which California has very good data on, from the '70s and onward until today, it's exploded. Okay? So the, the, the notion that we just have better diagnosis is, is not a serious point. But putting that aside, the Amish do go to doctors.

Joe Rogan 1:54:38 Do they go to Amish doctors?

Aaron Siri 1:54:40 No.

Joe Rogan 1:54:40 Okay.

Aaron Siri 1:54:40 They go to regular doctors. The Amish, the Amish, for example, could even go in a car. They just can't drive a car.

Joe Rogan 1:54:46 But-

Aaron Siri 1:54:47 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:54:47 So they can get an Uber?

Aaron Siri 1:54:48 There, there's different... I sh- I should be, I should be more-

Joe Rogan 1:54:50 Somebody orders it?

Aaron Siri 1:54:50 I should be clear about that. Just like every religion, there are different, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:54:56 Okay

Aaron Siri 1:54:57 ... communities. And so there's, like, old, old line Amish, and then there's old line Amish, and so-

Joe Rogan 1:55:02 Got it

Aaron Siri 1:55:03 ... the, you know, in, in Christianity and C- M- in, in Islam and C- Judah, and they're all different. You know, there's different degrees. The black hat Jews, and there's, you know, so forth.

Joe Rogan 1:55:11 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:55:11 So, um, um, uh, in, in many respects, um, uh, they do still go, but, you know, as, um, I was, uh, told by o- one of the main folks who I interact with there, and I've been up there to, uh, and I've slept there, and I've interacted with them. He told me, he said, "Yeah, you know, um, there are a few that by mistake got some vaccines." And he goes, "One of those kids, they just don't act right," he said it to me. "But we don't see that with our other kids." And I'll tell you this about the Amish community. They don't have phones. Not, not, not, not the, not, uh, you know, smartphones. Uh, they, they have old school phones, some of them. They don't have TVs. When they're with their kids, they're with their kids. When they're there at the end of the day, they really are, are so much more in tune. When I spend time with them and when I went up there, I mean, it's incredible, you know? Y- we, we have lo- I, I, it's a hard thing to experience maybe for f- somebody who keeps, like-Maybe the closest thing I think of is like those who observe the Sabbath biblically, you know, so they're just totally locked in.

Joe Rogan 1:56:14 Right.

Aaron Siri 1:56:14 They lock in with their families for a day or s- or things like that. And so they're very in tune with their kids. They know if those kids have health issues, and those kids don't have those issues. But forget the Amish, go to the rest of the kids in the other studies that are not Amish studies. The 10 other studies that I just told you about, one is three pediatric practices that have vaccinated or unvaccinated kids. So w- there, there, there are a whole line of studies of nothing to do with the Amish community. But if you do wanna focus on autism, okay, which is just one potential issue from vaccines, by the way, um, what you find in the peer-review literature is that 40 to 70% of parents of a child with autism report, still report, that they believe vaccines cause their child's autism, okay? 40 to 70%. That's after how much billions of dollars to try to tell them and gaslight them and convince them that it's not aut- that vaccines don't cause autism. No mat- apparently, no matter how many m- much you beat these families, they're just not gonna change their lived experience. And what vaccines do they point to? They often, they point to the vaccines given in the first six months of life. When you ask them, "What vaccines do you think caused your child's autism?" They'll say the vaccines given in the first six months of life, and then they'll also point to MMR vaccine, which is given no earlier than one year of age, okay? And so on behalf of, uh, ICAN, which is the Informed Consent Action Network, a nonprofit that our law firm represents, we sent a Freedom of Information Act request, FOIA request, to the CDC, and we said, "Hey, your website says vaccines do not cause autism. Great. Please give us the studies that show that Hep B vaccine given three times in the first six months of life do not cause autism. Please give us the studies that show that DTaP vaccine given three times in the first six months of life do not cause autism." Same thing for IPV vaccine, for, uh, PCV vaccine, and for, uh, uh, um, Hib vaccine, okay? Each one of those vaccines is given three times each in the first six months of life. 15 injections, okay? Okay. You say vaccines don't cause autism. These parents are saying these vaccines cause their child's autism. Provide us the studies. They never gave us the studies. I sued them in federal court, and I didn't go to Texas. I sued them in Southern District of New York, okay? Not the friendliest territory to bring that kind of lawsuit, okay? Days before the hearing, I get a, a list of 20 studies finally from, uh, also from the DOJ, 'cause they represent the CDC, okay? Maybe they think I don't read. So I looked at the 20 studies. I've read them. 19 of them have nothing to do with the vaccines given in the first six months of life. They were all either MMR studies or studies of an ingredient that wasn't in those vaccines. One of them was an Institute of Medicine review from 2012 that canvassed all the literature on whether DTaP vaccine does or does not cause autism because the CDC and HRSA, which is the agency in, in HHS that fights vaccine i- injury claims, re- asked the IOM to look at whether DTaP causes autism because it remained one of the most commonly claimed injuries still according to them, okay? And the Institute of Medicine would- came back and said, "We could only find one study on DTaP and autism, and in fact, it showed an association between vaccine, DTaP vaccine and autism," but the IOM threw it out because it said there's no unvaccinated control in it. So they threw out the study. It was based on VAERS data, if you know what that is. So I called up the DOJ attorney. This is days before the hearing. And I said, "I got the list of 20 studies." I said, "Are you sure that your client, the CDC, wants to settle this case basically on the basis that these are the studies they rely upon to claim that vaccines don't cause autism, that the vaccines in the six, first six months of life do not cause autism?" 'Cause that's what the lawsuit was about, that FOIA request. He went, he called me back, and he said, "Yeah, they wanna settle it." I said, "All right." Give him a- I gave him another chance. Those 20 studies were put into a settlement agreement between the CDC and ICAN, my client. The DOJ signed it on behalf of the CDC, I signed it on behalf of my client, and a federal judge in the Southern District of New York entered it as an order of the court in 2019, I believe it was. And there it was. I mean, I, I'd done years and years of work fighting with them to try and figure out, show me that vaccines don't cause autism. This was the crescendo. This was the end. I mean, when their back was to the wall, they had, they had nothing. There are n- no studies. They could not produce one that showed the vaccines given in the first six months of life do not cause autism. And here's the thing they left out. There is one study out there regarding Hep B vaccines and autism. It's from Gallagher and Goodman out of the University of Stony Brook. It's in the peer-reviewed literature, and it showed that kids that got Hep B vaccine versus those that didn't in the first month's, month of life had three times the rate of autism, statistically significant. Gallagher, Goodman, University of Stony Brook. It's on PubMed. That is the only study of Hep B vaccine and autism you will find in the peer-reviewed literature. If you're gonna do it based on the science, on the published literature, that's the only one out there. That DTaP vaccine study is the only one out there for DTaP given in the first six months of life.

Joe Rogan 2:01:48 So when this narrative, which you hear all the time on these panels, on these news shows, "Vaccines do not cause autism, that has been thoroughly debunked," where's that come from?

Aaron Siri 2:02:02 Vaccines, Amen. That's why I call my book Vaccines, Amen.

Joe Rogan 2:02:06 The crowd cheers.

Aaron Siri 2:02:07 Because-

Joe Rogan 2:02:07 Have you seen those live shows where crowds cheer?

Aaron Siri 2:02:09 But this is what I'm talking about. This is why I wrote the book. I wrote the book because in 10 years that I have litigated 100, 200 lawsuits against federal and state health agencies, that I have deposed the world's leading vaccinologists, including Dr. Stanley Plotkin. Uh, you go down the list.And chasing them when they're in a deposition, when their back is against the wall in a federal or state lawsuit, and they have no choice but to admit the truth or give the evidence, put up or shut up. What I have found is that the claims they make about vaccines versus the reality are completely different, and it is disturbing. When I came into this, I w- [chuckles] had you told me, "Yeah, they don't have any studies that show vaccines don't cause autism in the first six months of life," I'd be like, "You're crazy. Get out of here. They tell you it's thoroughly debunked, thoroughly studied, the most studied thing ever. They have a mountain of science, Joe. There's a mountain of studies. You know how big it is?"

Joe Rogan 2:03:08 A mountain.

Aaron Siri 2:03:08 "It's so big, and you know what's on top of that mountain? Another mountain of studies. You know how... Another mountain. There's so many studies. They're drowning in studies that vaccines don't cause autism." But then when you demand it, not the bull crap that they say on TV, but you actually demand it, that's the result. And that, you could pull it up on the internet, by the way, that, that, that, that, that, that, that court stipulation, it's right there. You could also hear me depose Dr. Stanley Plotkin, the world's leading vaccinologist, where I said to him, I said, "Doctor," you know, and you have y- this clip's on the internet. I said, I said, "There's no studies that support that DTaP does not cause autism, right?" And he s- he, and at first he said, "Well, I..." I said, "Well, what do you think the IOM concluded?" He goes, "Well, I would assume they said it doesn't." I, so I showed it to him. He goes, "Oh." This is the world's leading vaccinologist. He didn't even know this. He goes, "Oh, okay, there are no studies. Okay." He goes... So I said, "Shouldn't you wait until you do? Shouldn't you wait until you have the studies that show that DTaP doesn't cause autism to then tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism?" You know what he said to me? "No. No, I don't wait. I don't wait because I have to take into account the health of the child," he said. I said, "So for that reason, you're willing to tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism even though you don't have the data to support it?" And he said, "Absolutely." You can play that clip if you want. It's on the internet. Uh, and then I deposed in a case about vaccines and autism. It was about a Dr. Catherine Edwards, who is one of the four, I guess, leading vaccinologists in the world, one of the four editors of the medical textbooks on vaccine, which is called Plotkin's Vaccines. I deposed her about vaccines and autism. And I said, "Do you have a study that shows hep B vaccine doesn't cause autism?" This was after this court stipulation, the court order I told you about. She didn't have any for hep B, for Hi- for the ones I just t- the, the first six months of life. So yes, they say on TV it's thoroughly debunked, but I'm telling you that is a belief. That is not science. That is not fact. It is not based on data. It is based on pure belief.

Joe Rogan 2:05:13 And they say it just like they say, you know, Jesus Christ is Lord.

Aaron Siri 2:05:17 I think they believe actually in vaccines more because they'll kick kids out of school in, in s- in some archdioceses even, in some other Christian schools, far less. Uh, m- most archdioceses won't if the kid won't get vaccines. So I actually think they believe in vaccines more than Jesus in some places, by the way.

Joe Rogan 2:05:34 [sighs] What an amazing job of gaslighting and propaganda they've done.

Aaron Siri 2:05:40 But I, I just wanna b- I, I just gotta be clear 'cause a- anybody hearing this might think that that just sounds crazy. But I implore anybody who's heard me say that, pull up the court order yourself. Look at it yourself. Watch the depositions. Go to PubMed. See for yourself. Oh, and by the way, do not rely on AI, 'cause I've done this fun job with them. Like, I'm like, "Do hep B vaccines cause autism?" "It's been thoroughly d- researched and there's no studies." I just go, "Okay, great. So how do y-" And I say to AI, I go, "How do you s- reach a scientific conclusion?" "Well, you use peer-reviewed studies." I go, "Wonderful. So to, to conclude that hep B vaccine does not cause autism, you need peer-reviewed studies." "That is correct." "Wonderful. Now please pl- in a list, these studies that show hep B vaccine does cause autism. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Uh, da, da, da. Give me three studies." I've had, I, I've had, uh, ChatGPT make up studies. Literally, "Hep B vaccine does not cause au-" And I'm like, "That doesn't exist. Give me the PubMed number." "You are correct. I aim to provide, uh, uh, valid information, but in this instance, I fell short." Literally made up a s- I'm not joking. Made up a study.

Joe Rogan 2:06:44 That's crazy.

Aaron Siri 2:06:45 I've had it... And, and-

Joe Rogan 2:06:45 "I fell short. I lied to you." [laughs]

Aaron Siri 2:06:47 I've done, I've done this for fun with friends.

Joe Rogan 2:06:49 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 2:06:49 And so I'm like, "Watch this. Watch this." And finally I'll get it to admit that the only study is the Gallagher and Goodman study. That that is the only study. I will get it to admit. It takes about often 45 minutes to an hour.

Joe Rogan 2:07:00 Really?

Aaron Siri 2:07:00 Yeah. It takes a while, but it will eventually admit it, and they all do it. Grok does it too, by the way. Grok's better, by the way. Better, but it's bad too. And they will s- they will say, you know, on, on all of these questions, they will make stuff up. And unless you know, like I know the universe of studies. I know it's baloney.

Joe Rogan 2:07:18 Can I ask you this? Do you think that these, uh, large language models are programmed with certain truths that they can't fight against, or do you think it's because they're pulling from so much bullshit on the internet, and so many bullshit narratives on the internet from trusted sources that'll tell you that vaccines don't cause autism? Like, there's a ton of, you know, m- major newspapers, major magazines, there's a ton of them that have talked about how it's been thoroughly debunked, and then they'll quote doctors and scientists-

Aaron Siri 2:07:49 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:07:49 ... that don't list any specific studies, but they'll say, "We've done exhaustive studies. They've been thoroughly debunked." They'll say that, and then they'll print that. And so is the, is the AI just pulling from so much bullshit online that it, like, looks through all the noise and says, like, "89% say vaccines do not cause autism, therefore it must be true"? Or is it programmed to say, "Hey, this is what you say. Vaccines don't cause autism."

Aaron Siri 2:08:17 You must hold me in very high regard. You've, you've held me out as an e- uh, you've, [laughs] you've held me to incredibly complex economic questions, and now langla- [laughs] large language model questions, so I appreciate-

Joe Rogan 2:08:26 You're a very smart guy.

Aaron Siri 2:08:27 I appreciate the compliment so far on that score. With that said, um- [both laughing] Um, I mean, I, I, I don't know the answer, but I will speculate 'cause I don't know the answer that, uh, I, I'm gonna guess, I'm guess- I'm really guessing, uh, um, that it might be a mix of some programming because Google, for example, I n- n- you know... If you go and you search for Aaron Siri Substack, you get Paul Offit Substack. Why?

Joe Rogan 2:09:02 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 2:09:03 How in the world do you get Paul Offit Substack when you search for mine, and mine's like, it's not even, like, on the first page. I don't think it's on the second. Now, I, maybe they fixed that. I don't know. So it, some of that-

Joe Rogan 2:09:17 Is that using Google?

Aaron Siri 2:09:19 That's using Google.

Joe Rogan 2:09:20 Let's look right now.

Aaron Siri 2:09:21 Last time I've done it-

Joe Rogan 2:09:22 Let's go-

Aaron Siri 2:09:22 It wasn't long ago

Joe Rogan 2:09:22 ... let's do it right now.

Aaron Siri 2:09:23 All right. Let's-

Joe Rogan 2:09:23 Let's do it right now

Aaron Siri 2:09:24 ... let's do it.

Joe Rogan 2:09:24 'Cause have you seen Robert Epstein's work?

Aaron Siri 2:09:27 Um-

Joe Rogan 2:09:28 Robert Epstein's been on my podcast a few times.

Aaron Siri 2:09:29 Okay.

Joe Rogan 2:09:29 Unfortunate last name. Uh, but-

Aaron Siri 2:09:31 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:09:31 ... he has nothing to do with that.

Aaron Siri 2:09:32 Okay.

Joe Rogan 2:09:32 He is a data scientist.

Aaron Siri 2:09:34 Okay.

Joe Rogan 2:09:34 And one, well, I don't know what his original background is, but what he does is he is, uh, very vocal about how they're using these coordinated se- it's very curated search results, and through that, especially during, uh, election times, they can take a lot of people that are in, uh, undecided voters-

Aaron Siri 2:09:54 Okay

Joe Rogan 2:09:54 ... and swing them a very noticeable number. Like, I forget what the number was, but it's a, a large percentage-

Aaron Siri 2:09:59 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:09:59 ... 10%, 20%, something like that. So if you Google something about, say, Hillary Clinton, for instance, during that first election-

Aaron Siri 2:10:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:10:05 ... you would get all these positive articles.

Aaron Siri 2:10:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:10:08 If you Googled Trump, you would get all these negative articles.

Aaron Siri 2:10:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:10:11 And if you, you know, asked it certain things, it would give you things that were completely contrary to that, so you'd look at that first, and I think that's you and Paul Offit.

Aaron Siri 2:10:20 It could be.

Joe Rogan 2:10:20 So let's find out.

Aaron Siri 2:10:21 Maybe it's, maybe it's fixed at this point.

Speaker 2:10:23 How do you wanna word this? 'Cause that-

Joe Rogan 2:10:24 Just Aaron Siri Substack.

Aaron Siri 2:10:26 Yeah, just do Aaron Siri Substack.

Joe Rogan 2:10:28 Just do that on-

Aaron Siri 2:10:29 Just do it on Google

Joe Rogan 2:10:29 ... on Google, and then let's see-

Aaron Siri 2:10:30 Let's see what comes up

Joe Rogan 2:10:30 ... what the results are.

Aaron Siri 2:10:31 But while he's pulling that up, I'll add that, uh, I, so I, this might be some of that. Again, I'm on speculation territory. And then separately, the... Oh.

Joe Rogan 2:10:38 So it goes right away to you.

Aaron Siri 2:10:39 It goes right away to me this time. Of the t-

Joe Rogan 2:10:41 Oh, they, you know what it is? They got Jamie's fucking data-

Aaron Siri 2:10:45 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:10:45 ... and they know from your metadata.

Speaker 2:10:46 Literally the, like if, if you ask a question in a word way, it might come up differently. It's like what-

Aaron Siri 2:10:50 No, that, that's what I, that's what I did

Speaker 2:10:53 ... Aaron Siri Substack could come up, like, might be different.

Aaron Siri 2:10:53 Try Aaron Siri injecting Freedom Substack, see what happens, because that could be the way we search for it.

Speaker 2:11:01 See, that shows up different.

Aaron Siri 2:11:02 Oh. Well-

Speaker 2:11:04 See, I'm telling you, when you put, when you add words, it kind of really fucks up-

Aaron Siri 2:11:07 Scroll down

Speaker 2:11:07 ... all Google searches.

Joe Rogan 2:11:08 Yeah, but I don't see Paul Offit in there.

Aaron Siri 2:11:10 I don't see Paul Offit in there. And I am on the first page.

Joe Rogan 2:11:11 Have you talked about this publicly before?

Aaron Siri 2:11:13 No, never.

Joe Rogan 2:11:14 Oh, too bad.

Aaron Siri 2:11:15 No, I just did, I just... This happened l- this was actually literally just a few days ago. Um-

Joe Rogan 2:11:20 Well, I think-

Aaron Siri 2:11:21 But-

Joe Rogan 2:11:21 ... one of the things that Robert Epstein, because of being, he's been on my podcast, been on multiple podcasts, but he's been talking about the dangers of these-

Aaron Siri 2:11:27 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:11:28 ... curated search engines and how it's, it's essentially election rigging. Like, you're, you're manipulating a statistically significant-

Aaron Siri 2:11:35 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:11:35 ... number of people to one side or the other, and you can do it by curating search engines.

Aaron Siri 2:11:39 Well, the experiment we just did might reflect that my first theory [laughs] is, might be less of that, right?

Joe Rogan 2:11:46 Right.

Aaron Siri 2:11:46 'Cause look, there it is. It's happenstance.

Joe Rogan 2:11:48 Right.

Aaron Siri 2:11:48 I, I... That's why I said I have no idea. I'm speculating. But it could be pre-re- it could not.

Joe Rogan 2:11:53 It could be also your own-

Aaron Siri 2:11:54 It could also be people-

Joe Rogan 2:11:55 ... algorithm because maybe-

Aaron Siri 2:11:57 Or-

Joe Rogan 2:11:57 ... you were searching for Paul Offit. Maybe you had Googled Paul Offit's full of shit just before that.

Aaron Siri 2:12:03 [laughs] I don't need to Google that.

Joe Rogan 2:12:04 [laughs]

Aaron Siri 2:12:04 Uh, uh, that, that's not... I don't need to. I've had, I've had-

Speaker 2:12:07 I don't know when they've added this, but they've, they definitely added on the screen what they call personalization for these results.

Joe Rogan 2:12:13 Aha, results are personalized. Try without personalization.

Speaker 2:12:17 So that could have something to do with it.

Joe Rogan 2:12:18 Interesting.

Aaron Siri 2:12:19 All right. Try-

Joe Rogan 2:12:19 Well, let's try it without personalization. Let's see if it changes.

Speaker 2:12:22 Well, I've already done a different route. I, I-

Joe Rogan 2:12:24 Oh, you already put Paul Offit in there?

Speaker 2:12:26 Yeah, I already started searching for that, so I couldn't-

Joe Rogan 2:12:27 Okay.

Aaron Siri 2:12:27 So if you do it without personalization-

Speaker 2:12:28 Yeah

Aaron Siri 2:12:28 ... it doesn't delete the prior one?

Joe Rogan 2:12:30 Interesting.

Aaron Siri 2:12:30 Personalized, it knows you're a right-winger. [laughs]

Speaker 2:12:33 Well, they started using AI a long time ago to try to-

Aaron Siri 2:12:35 It knows you're a radical. But I would, I would s- I would speculate that the probably bigger component is the, uh, who's got... Again, it comes back to who's got the money to understand how these AI algorithms work and to maybe put the stuff out there that it's gonna most likely read from. I mean, when you do AI, you s- you can get that... I see that, like, crazy scroll of all the things it's looking at, right?

Joe Rogan 2:12:57 Right.

Aaron Siri 2:12:57 So if I've got, if I am a pharma company and I've got a multi-billion dollar budget every year to influence and to market and so forth, you know, I'm, I'm gonna deploy that in, in the way that's probably the most effective. One of the things I probably would do is maybe do the things that would influence the results on AI.

Joe Rogan 2:13:16 Hmm.

Aaron Siri 2:13:17 Potentially.

Joe Rogan 2:13:18 Yeah, I would too, especially if there's no regulations. That's the weird thing about curating search engines. If it's, like, your search engine, you can kind of do whatever you want, especially if you're a company. Like, wasn't it, like, one of the major tech companies after Donald Trump won in 2016 that had a meeting, they were like, "We can't let this happen again"? Was that Facebook or Google? Do you remember, Jamie? Do you remember it was, like, very famous that people were like, "What are you talking about? You... Why? What? How can you say that?" [laughs] Like, "How can you even say that? Even if you... You're right."

Aaron Siri 2:13:50 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:13:50 Like, the idea that you can somehow or other stop someone from being elected if the public-

Aaron Siri 2:13:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:13:56 ... wants that person to be elected 'cause you disagree with it is kind of a crazy thing to say out loud.

Aaron Siri 2:14:02 Well, you know, I'm thinking more about your question. So when we found that thing with Paul Offit, if... We found that thing with Paul Offit a few days ago, my social media manager, my, and my... I've got a, you know, got a lot of folks at my law firm, um, and we have somebody who does, like, Google AdWords stuff and, and, and, and SEO stuff, and then we have another guy who does the, the web-related stuff. Um, I know they did some things, and maybe with my little measly budget, it had that effect.

Joe Rogan 2:14:29 Perhaps.

Aaron Siri 2:14:29 And so ma-

Joe Rogan 2:14:29 Yeah

Aaron Siri 2:14:29 ... so if, that would go to my second point that with enough dollar... And, and who cares about my... I mean, I don't think pharma cares about my Substack. Trust me, they're not scared of my Substack. 15-

Joe Rogan 2:14:38 WellI don't know about that because even if, uh, you don't have a ton of subscribers, it's still out there, and all it takes is one podcast appearance like this one, and people go there. And then all it takes is one investigative reporter to talk about it-

Aaron Siri 2:14:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:14:56 ... to get a... It's a weird time for stuff-

Aaron Siri 2:14:59 All right. Well-

Joe Rogan 2:15:00 ... like that

Aaron Siri 2:15:00 ... well then let's see if two weeks from now it goes back. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:15:02 Yeah, they'll, they'll never put it back. They'll never put it back. But if you guys did do something about it, that does make sense that they, they corrected it.

Aaron Siri 2:15:09 And, and complaints with-

Joe Rogan 2:15:10 You complained about it

Aaron Siri 2:15:10 ... well, no, I think that, you know, they had brought up doing like keywords and stuff like that 'cause I did - there was some emails about, I remember f- trying to fix it. I'm amazed that it looks like it did.

Joe Rogan 2:15:22 Well, I-

Aaron Siri 2:15:22 And so-

Joe Rogan 2:15:23 ... I don't want that smoke. You know? They don't-

Aaron Siri 2:15:24 So maybe it's, you know, it just kinda shows you-

Joe Rogan 2:15:26 They just need to be, yeah, shine light on it. It's the best disinfection, sunlight. Um, I, I just don't like the idea of curated search engines. It's really spooky. It's just, it's no different to me than curating information on social media platforms based on whatever your ideology is. Like, I don't think you should be able to do that in terms of like, I don't think the company should be able to tell you you can't see certain things. And YouTube was terrible about that during the pandemic. All the things that turned out to be true could've got you banned from YouTube. The lab leak theory kick- kicked off. You know? The, the fact that the vaccines, even if you get vaccinated, you're still, you still can catch COVID.

Aaron Siri 2:16:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:16:04 Remember that was a breakthrough infection that was extremely rare.

Aaron Siri 2:16:08 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:16:08 Extremely rare breakthrough infection. Never heard of it.

Aaron Siri 2:16:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:16:13 And now it's everybody. Literally everybody. And then it became this weird fucking, everybody did these weird mental gymnastics where they started repeating, "Oh, but it stops hospitalization and death."

Aaron Siri 2:16:23 Uh.

Joe Rogan 2:16:24 And like, what, what, what are you talking about? You never said that before.

Aaron Siri 2:16:27 Uh.

Joe Rogan 2:16:27 You are saying that they were saying-

Aaron Siri 2:16:29 Uh

Joe Rogan 2:16:30 ... it stops hospitalization and death, and you don't even have anything to gain here. You just don't wanna be wrong about your decision to get injected and to promote it, which is nuts. It's like people are doing the man's work for the man. They've signed up as volunteers in the propaganda army, and shaming all the people that didn't go along with it, and never apologizing. No one wants to apologize for calling people plague rats and telling people that they should have their children taken away from them. Nutty, weird, dystopian shit.

Aaron Siri 2:17:01 They don't realize that they are the, they are creating more vaccine hesitancy with that kind of conduct than anything-

Joe Rogan 2:17:08 Yeah

Aaron Siri 2:17:08 ... that you and I could do on this podcast at all.

Joe Rogan 2:17:11 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 2:17:11 'Cause, you know. And like they say bo- you know the CDC webpage on vaccines and autism has now been updated, and it says now that there's effectively no studies to show the vaccines in the first six months of life do not cause autism. It now says that, and that we have mis- that the CDC has misled the public on that score, and people trashed, the mainstream media trashed Bobby for that while instead of celebrating it as an opportunity to correct course of transparency. Honestly, people are more likely to trust our federal health agencies when they're honest, when they're apologize, when they're willing to admit mistakes.

Joe Rogan 2:17:48 Yes.

Aaron Siri 2:17:49 They don't, they're not there yet, though, unfortunately.

Joe Rogan 2:17:51 No, because it's, it's still a part of their political ideology. It's a part of their clan, and they, they don't even think about it. They don't look into it. They don't read any studies. They don't read any synopsis of any studies. They just go full bore ahead. It's been thoroughly debunked, and they'll argue with you. It's been thoroughly debunked.

Aaron Siri 2:18:09 Do you know how many-

Joe Rogan 2:18:09 This is all nonsense

Aaron Siri 2:18:10 ... do you know how many depositions I've taken of vaccinologists, pediatricians, infectious disease experts, and immunologists, where I will say something about this, you know, "These studies show that," for example, "The studies show that children that have had cancer, uh, uh, measles have a, have a lower rate of cancers." And they'll go, "Ah, that's, that, that's just nonsense. Those studies are just junk." And I'll say, "Have you read the studies?" "Uh, no, I've not." "Have you seen them?" "No." But see, but they knew already. You know? They've already reached that a priori conclusion. I remember in my deposition, not to go back to autism, of Dr. Edwards, where I said to her, um, "Do you have any studies show the Hep B vaccine does not cause autism?" She said, "No." I said, "But there is a study that shows th- three times the rate of autism amongst kids that didn't get Hep B vaccine." And she says, "Well, I s- don't think that's, that's not a good study." I said, "What study is that?" She goes, "Well, why don't you show me the study?" [laughs] And then, 'cause she hadn't read it. She doesn't know. "Why don't you show me the study?" Oh, she goes-

Joe Rogan 2:19:09 Ugh

Aaron Siri 2:19:09 ... that's, that, because it doesn't fit within the, the, you know, the belief system, unfortunately, when it comes to this. And it's so easy 'cause, like you said, all you gotta do is just say, "Eh, they're just an anti-vaxxer," and you're done.

Joe Rogan 2:19:23 Exactly. Exactly. And it's all, when, when the entire, when you have a company, like whatever company it is, whether it's Google or Facebook or whatever, and that company operates on an ideology that's not grounded in reality, and then they enforce it across their platform, it c- it's, it's very frustrating and really nutty to watch. And just thank God there exists some alternatives. Like, you would need a, you need a crazy person worth a ton of money-

Aaron Siri 2:19:50 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:19:50 ... like Elon-

Aaron Siri 2:19:51 To go-

Joe Rogan 2:19:51 ... to just go and-

Aaron Siri 2:19:52 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:19:52 ... buy it, and then also show, hey, it's still the number one platform for distributing information.

Aaron Siri 2:19:57 Yeah, in the same way that what, what Elon did for social media, if he could do that for search-

Joe Rogan 2:20:03 Right

Aaron Siri 2:20:04 ... that'd be great, but I think search is dying.

Joe Rogan 2:20:06 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 2:20:06 I don't think search-

Joe Rogan 2:20:07 I think AI is search now

Aaron Siri 2:20:07 ... it's, yes.

Joe Rogan 2:20:08 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 2:20:08 AI is gonna take over. I don't see-

Joe Rogan 2:20:10 I hardly ever search things anymore

Aaron Siri 2:20:11 ... everybody goes to AI these days from what I can see.

Joe Rogan 2:20:13 Yeah. 'Cause I can ask a question, like, "How did this come about?" I could, I could ask follow-ups. "Are there any dissenting opinions?" I, I love doing that.

Aaron Siri 2:20:21 It's good, but it also requires less thinking, so it's bad in that regard, but yes.

Joe Rogan 2:20:24 Well, it depends on how you're using it. W- when I'm using it is usually when I'm writing. I'm writing about a certain subject. I'm like, "Well, who, who were the first people to discover these Aztec pyramids?" You know, I'll, I'll get into something like that. Like, what were they looking for? Like, uh, you know what I mean? And like, you could, it's almost like you're talking to an expert.

Aaron Siri 2:20:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:20:39 So instead ofIt being like something that I use to think for me. It's like a super smart friend I'm bouncing questions off of.

Aaron Siri 2:20:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:20:47 And that you could find so much about things so quickly, as opposed to having to go through article after article after article, and like, "And that's the one I'm looking for. What did Cort- how did he trick those people into giving up their land? There's only fucking 600 of them. How'd they do that?" [laughs] You know, like, you need to fu- Like, AI is fantastic for that kind of shit. But if you're using it all day, like a lot of kids in my school, um, my kids' schools are getting busted-

Aaron Siri 2:21:11 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:21:11 ... for writing papers that are 100% AI. Like, they were a moron [both laughing] on, like, seventh grade.

Aaron Siri 2:21:20 It's like, it's like PhD genius level paper. Uh, y- yeah. It's, but it's, and it's really-

Joe Rogan 2:21:25 All of a sudden these 12-year-olds are fucking wizards.

Aaron Siri 2:21:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:21:27 It's hilarious.

Aaron Siri 2:21:28 It's, it's not good. I mean, you saw those-

Joe Rogan 2:21:30 That's not good

Aaron Siri 2:21:30 ... you saw those studies that came out. I, again, not my area, but, and I don't know the, I've only read the abstracts, so I don't, I don't know. But that, that s- the more that technology's been adopted into classrooms, it appears the more detrimental it has been, and actually the, the, the markers of what you would consider an educated or education or intelligence-

Joe Rogan 2:21:49 100%.

Aaron Siri 2:21:50 It's, it's-

Joe Rogan 2:21:50 It's a distraction. It's like-

Aaron Siri 2:21:52 ... not good

Joe Rogan 2:21:52 ... it's, there's no way it could be good. You're, you're on TikTok all day.

Aaron Siri 2:21:54 But if you're using AI, the one thing I will say, depending on the topic, but you probably should do it for all topics, is never just rely on the output. You gotta ask if-

Joe Rogan 2:22:03 Sure

Aaron Siri 2:22:03 ... show me the primary source-

Joe Rogan 2:22:04 Right

Aaron Siri 2:22:04 ... and look at it yourself. It's so critical in every area.

Joe Rogan 2:22:07 Especially if it's something controversial. I mean, generally I'm asking it questions about something I'm looking up that's not that controversial in terms of, like, whether or not it's argued.

Aaron Siri 2:22:15 You ever look up yourself?

Joe Rogan 2:22:16 No.

Aaron Siri 2:22:17 No? I know.

Joe Rogan 2:22:18 Jesus Christ. I don't look up myself ever 'cause I don't wanna know. I don't wanna know people's opinions. I d- I don't wanna know what it thinks of me. I couldn't care less. It's, I think it's much better to just keep on going. You're, if you're in the public eye, including you now, everyone is subject to an opinion, and there's certain opinions that are just... They're not people that you would ever wanna talk to, and those kind of people exist. There's gonna be shitty people out there, and, a- a- their opinion written down looks just like your opinion. Better to not have any of it. Better to not watch any videos. Better to not listen to anything. Just be a good internal judge. Be objective about your own self-

Aaron Siri 2:23:00 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:23:00 ... and be self-critical to the point where it's healthy, and leave it alone. I was watch- like I was talking about this the other day. I was watching this lady who was this very boring, not very exciting lady, talking about how bad The Beatles were. And I was like, "You should shut the fuck up."

Aaron Siri 2:23:16 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:23:16 Like, no, The Beat- The Beatles are incredible. You're just a moron. You're just a dull-brained fucking dork just wandering through life. Sp- but you're allowed to. You're allowed to have those opinions. It's like, good luck finding a bunch of people that agree with you, but you're allowed to try. But I don't wanna be a part of it. I don't wanna be washing, swimming through bullshit opinions-

Aaron Siri 2:23:37 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:23:37 ... all day long. I don't think it's healthy.

Aaron Siri 2:23:39 Yeah, but I, I d- I do think facing the opinions and the views, substantive opinions and views of those that don't agree with you, is an important exercise in life and in any, in, in, in every area, frankly. I mean, I, I'm, you know, uh, when it comes to the work that I do and, you know, I'm, I welcome having debates with those who claim they are the vaccine adverse. I mean, I'm-

Joe Rogan 2:24:02 Well, this is a d- we're talking about a very different kind of thing than looking it up yourself. Yeah, you're looking up hard-line data, and it's very important what you do because it's crazy to say that being honest in this regard is courageous. But it is courageous because I've seen you attacked. I've seen crazy shit r- r- r- that w- that people said about you. And it's like, good Lord, are you paying attention to what he's actually saying? Or, like, or are you some bot from somewhere, some fucking bot farm in Vietnam that's been hired to push a narrative? I don't know. But i- there's, there's a reality to data that's undeniable that needs to be promoted, and I think that's what you're doing. There's a reality to the data. You really are... I, I don't imagine a whole lot of people are s- lining up to debate you about this.

Aaron Siri 2:24:53 Uh, well, Paul Offit and I had an exchange on the internet, on... First we had it on Twitter.

Joe Rogan 2:24:58 In person?

Aaron Siri 2:24:59 In Twit- no, he won't do it.

Joe Rogan 2:25:00 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 2:25:00 So we had it on Twitter.

Joe Rogan 2:25:01 Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

Aaron Siri 2:25:02 And then he moved it onto Substack, and it's all there. It's a great exchange. Our ex- and I, I, I've offered him... And, and not, just to be clear, not like a gotcha debate. I've offered him to have a debate where we each get 10 minutes, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, and we each get to present the evidence. So we have a, a screen. We can put up our evidence, and we can go back and forth with equal amount of time so nobody's talking over each other. It's civil, and it's based on the substance. I've offered him to do that. But the truth is I don't need to debate him. I've already debated the world's leading vaccinologist, Dr. Stanley Plotkin, in a nine-hour deposition. People talk about, "You want, we should have a vaccine d- debate." Well, I've done that.

Joe Rogan 2:25:41 That was it.

Aaron Siri 2:25:42 It's nine hours. It's all on the internet, and you can watch it. And when my client put it out there and it ended up on YouTube, uh, this was many years ago, it had, like, millions of views at one point, and then YouTube took it off.

Joe Rogan 2:25:54 Ah.

Aaron Siri 2:25:54 And then people keep putting it back on. And it's just a deposition. It just keeps coming back and forth and back and forth. It's this-

Joe Rogan 2:26:00 Why are they ta- YouTube, leave it up. Stop.

Aaron Siri 2:26:02 Well, I don't know if they're still taking it down right now.

Joe Rogan 2:26:04 God, I hope now the climate's changed enough.

Aaron Siri 2:26:07 But they, you know, used to, used to take it down and down. And so, and I've, you know, and I've done Senate hearings where they've... But those vaccinologists, they don't wanna show up anymore. They-

Joe Rogan 2:26:14 I offered Peter Hotez that opportunity on the podcast.

Aaron Siri 2:26:17 We-

Joe Rogan 2:26:18 And I told him I would donate $100,000 to whatever charity of his choice.

Aaron Siri 2:26:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:26:21 And he, like, mocked that number as being insignificant. I'm like, "Well, tell me what the fucking number is. Like, just come on." And I was gonna have him and RFK Jr., 'cause he was talking about me having RFK Jr. on there saying a bunch of lies. And, like, well, instead of saying that... And I think he... Oh, God, I forget what term he used for me. I'm like, "Peter, you've been on my podcast twice. So what the fuck are you talking about? Like, why, why are you behaving like this? This is crazy."

Aaron Siri 2:26:46 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:26:46 The, uh, what did he call me? LikeIt was something about, it was some alt-right adjacent or neo-fascist adjacent podcast

Aaron Siri 2:27:00 The point, the point is it was ad hominem instead of substance

Joe Rogan 2:27:02 Yeah, exactly

Aaron Siri 2:27:02 And you gave him an opportunity to show he was right in front of the world. He is the vaccinologist. Bobby, just a lawyer, obviously will drool on himself. Like, debate him.

Joe Rogan 2:27:12 Well, I only-

Aaron Siri 2:27:12 What's the big deal?

Joe Rogan 2:27:13 I only did this-

Aaron Siri 2:27:13 And I remember, I mean-

Joe Rogan 2:27:14 ... after he did that. I didn't, I didn't a- he had said all this stuff about me because Bobby was on the podcast, and it was one of the rare times I'd ever to go after, that I ever go after anyone on Twitter. But I was like, "Stop."

Aaron Siri 2:27:27 I remember this.

Joe Rogan 2:27:27 "Why are you saying that? This is stupid."

Aaron Siri 2:27:29 And, and I remember a whole bunch of people added in.

Joe Rogan 2:27:31 Yeah.

Aaron Siri 2:27:31 Like, they were willing to add... I, I, I thought it was over, I forgot the number. It was in, like, a million.

Joe Rogan 2:27:35 Millions.

Aaron Siri 2:27:36 2 million.

Joe Rogan 2:27:36 It was in the millions, yeah.

Aaron Siri 2:27:37 They were willing to, and he-

Joe Rogan 2:27:38 Yeah

Aaron Siri 2:27:38 ... still would not sit down and do it. And the, and the argument that you'll often hear is they'll say, "Well, I'm not good at debating." It's, you know, he's a lawyer. He'll use lawyer tricks to argue.

Joe Rogan 2:27:47 Peter Hotez a lawyer?

Aaron Siri 2:27:49 No, no, no, no.

Joe Rogan 2:27:49 Oh, he's a lawyer. Bobby's a lawyer.

Aaron Siri 2:27:50 Bobby's a lawyer.

Joe Rogan 2:27:51 Right. I understand what you're saying.

Aaron Siri 2:27:51 Or they'll say that-

Joe Rogan 2:27:52 He's a lawyer

Aaron Siri 2:27:52 ... that he's a lawyer-

Joe Rogan 2:27:53 Right

Aaron Siri 2:27:53 ... or I'm a lawyer, you know? And-

Joe Rogan 2:27:55 Yeah

Aaron Siri 2:27:55 ... what they don't i- but, but, you know, if-

Joe Rogan 2:27:58 Data wins.

Aaron Siri 2:27:59 Exactly. The substance-

Joe Rogan 2:28:00 And I would lend that data to win

Aaron Siri 2:28:01 ... the substance should win.

Joe Rogan 2:28:02 I want y- if you're right, I wanna know. Like, I don't fucking know.

Aaron Siri 2:28:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:28:05 You tell me.

Aaron Siri 2:28:06 I'm willing to d- debate Peter Hotez here any day.

Joe Rogan 2:28:09 I don't think he's gonna do it. [laughs]

Aaron Siri 2:28:10 I'll debate Paul Offit, any of them. They can all... In fact, Stanley Plotkin just wrote me a letter. He, um, after all these years, after a deposition, first time ever, wrote me a letter.

Joe Rogan 2:28:18 Really? What'd he say?

Aaron Siri 2:28:19 He said, "I heard you wrote a book. I heard you wrote a book, and, um, your deposition went very, very long, and I wasn't prepared enough." He's a world's leading vaccinologist. "And I will be credited with saving millions, and you will go down in history as the one who's harmed and killed children."

Joe Rogan 2:28:37 Wow.

Aaron Siri 2:28:37 That's what he wrote me a letter, and I-

Joe Rogan 2:28:39 Wow

Aaron Siri 2:28:39 ... I wrote him back a f- a, a, a response. I, and I a- and I said, "Look." I said, "Dr. Plotkin," I said, "Thank you for your letter. I appreciate that you're writing me finally." 'Cause I've reached out to him before, one time at least. And I said, "Look," I, I said, "I, I think we can agree on one thing. I, uh, we wanna save as many children as possible. I w- I wanna save children from infectious disease. That's important, I agree. But I also wanna save children from the harm from these products. They matter, too. They're not just... There shouldn't be accepted casualties. The tens of thousands of families have contacted my law firm, devastating harm from these products. They, they matter, too." And I said, "Let's work together. Let's work constructively," I said, "Because look, at the end of the day, if you don't address this, if you don't address this issue," I said, "history is not gonna remember you for the good. History's gonna remember you for all the harm you caused." Because when people look back in history at products that caused devastating harm, which vaccines can do, they don't remember the good those products did. They remember the harms that people ignored, that were overlooked, and, and those were just cast aside. I said, "That will be your legacy." I said, "But there's time to correct it." He hasn't written me back, so.

Joe Rogan 2:29:52 Of course he hasn't written you back.

Aaron Siri 2:29:53 I posted, I posted both letters on my Substack, and I tweeted them out, so this way, the w- I figured they could do some good that way. So they're available to everybody to read.

Joe Rogan 2:30:01 Well, um, I think it's a very unique time that, uh, this message can get out there, because, um, what they did when they removed liability and they gave them blanket protection like that, they, they opened up the door to a bunch of people that really don't give a shit about you. They just wanna make as much money as possible. There's the scientists, that's the way I always describe, like, these companies. You've got the people that are making these drugs. You've got these really interesting, brilliant scientists, and then you got the fucking money people, and the money people don't give a shit. They just wanna make more money, and they're both together. So you have this weird contradictory world where you have, like, some amazing pharmaceutical drugs that have helped so many people and kept people alive and cured diseases, and then you got the money people who want everybody to get shot up because it's gonna make them more money, and those two working together is a very bad mixture, especially when you have mandates. When you mandate that these people have to be able to inject you and inject your children with this thing that's gonna make them money, and they have zero liability, like, how could that-

Aaron Siri 2:31:12 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:31:13 ... possibly go well? Knowing what you know about human beings, who would sign off on that?

Aaron Siri 2:31:19 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 2:31:19 That's crazy.

Aaron Siri 2:31:20 Well, you know, I had a business idea for you.

Joe Rogan 2:31:22 Okay.

Aaron Siri 2:31:23 Wanna hear it?

Joe Rogan 2:31:23 Sure.

Aaron Siri 2:31:23 I think it's a great business idea. Hey, listen, we're gonna sell this product.

Joe Rogan 2:31:26 Okay.

Aaron Siri 2:31:26 We're gonna make-

Joe Rogan 2:31:27 Okay. Let's go.

Aaron Siri 2:31:27 Okay, we can in- it's, uh, uh, uh, we can inject it into people. Are you worried it's gonna hurt people?

Joe Rogan 2:31:32 Well, I'm a little worried until I... I wanna hear your story first.

Aaron Siri 2:31:33 But don't worry.

Joe Rogan 2:31:34 Okay.

Aaron Siri 2:31:34 Don't worry.

Joe Rogan 2:31:35 Okay. I won't worry.

Aaron Siri 2:31:35 Don't worry. Don't worry about it, because the government's gonna give us immunity to liability no matter how many people we hurt or kill.

Joe Rogan 2:31:40 Oh.

Aaron Siri 2:31:40 Okay? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:31:41 How'd you work that out?

Aaron Siri 2:31:42 Yeah, I know. Now, now the weird part is you might be saying to me, you say, "Aaron, Aaron, wait a second, but, but who the hell is gonna take that?" And I'll say, "Joe, don't worry. The government's gonna mandate it, too."

Joe Rogan 2:31:53 Oh.

Aaron Siri 2:31:53 And you might say-

Joe Rogan 2:31:54 Love her

Aaron Siri 2:31:54 ... "Okay, but what if people rise up?" And I'll say, "Joe, don't worry. They're gonna spend billions convincing the public it's the best thing since sliced bread." And then you're gonna say, "But, but what if people still don't wanna pay for it?" And I'll say, "Don't worry. The government, through a, a program, literally pays for half of all vaccine, guarantees payment to the pharma companies even if people cannot pay." So-

Joe Rogan 2:32:19 Sounds like a good investment

Aaron Siri 2:32:20 ... no imm- no, no liability, guaranteed market, free promotion, guaranteed payment. It's the most ins- if, if it wasn't vaccines, you'd say it's insane. It is insane, and that is the business model of vaccines. That literally is what I just said. Think of, it's just... So you're right, it's perverse. But this thing that you were just saying before about, like, the money men who wanna just make money, like, look, it, we live in a, a capitalist system where we have tapped into that, um, that self-interest.But we try to harness it for good. So every company has that to some degree. You know, people have that to some degree, but the idea with capitalism is yeah, but you, you