Dr. Shanna Swan on Joe Rogan: Why phthalates gut sperm count

Speaker 0:02 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.

Joe Rogan 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Speaker 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat rock music]

Joe Rogan 0:12 Great to see you again.

Shanna H. Swan 0:13 Great to see you, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:15 Uh-

Shanna H. Swan 0:15 Happy to be here.

Joe Rogan 0:16 Happy to have you here. So you've got a documentary about the, uh, uh, essentially about the same subject that you talked about last time you were here, the impact of microplastics and all these various endocrine-disrupting chemicals that we're dealing with.

Shanna H. Swan 0:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 0:32 Right?

Shanna H. Swan 0:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 0:34 So tell me about it.

Shanna H. Swan 0:35 [sighs] Well, it started as a movie on plastic, and when I met Louis, and he filmed me in New York about five years ago also, um, it wasn't the small study that we have today. Um [clears throat] but let me backtrack, 'cause I wanna tell you something-

Joe Rogan 1:00 Okay

Shanna H. Swan 1:01 ... that I never told you but-

Joe Rogan 1:03 Okay

Shanna H. Swan 1:03 ... was so important to me. So you remember when I was here, you said, "Are you saying the toxins in the environment are threatening the survival of the human race?"

Joe Rogan 1:14 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:15 And I said, "That's my story, and I'm sticking to it."

Joe Rogan 1:19 Yes.

Shanna H. Swan 1:20 Yes? And then you said something which changed my life. You said, "Why don't people know about this?" Remember that?

Joe Rogan 1:31 Yes.

Shanna H. Swan 1:34 I went home, and I thought a lot about that question, and that was what led me to s- create the program that I have now, Action Science Initiative, which is doing short, impactful, relatively cheap interventions to alert people to the problem and communicating this in a way that I'm hoping will reach more people than academia, where I was speaking before.

Joe Rogan 2:06 Mm.

Shanna H. Swan 2:06 Because before I talked to you, I talked to my peers in, you know, academia and, and the ivory tower, you know, at the meetings where they all went, at the... They read the papers that we all read. But the general public didn't get this. So you really were... I-I have to tell you thank you, and you were actually very influential in my life.

Joe Rogan 2:28 Well, I'm, I'm very happy to help. When I first heard about your book, and I started going over the, the details of it and the subject matter, I was shocked. I, I, I, I couldn't imagine that something like this could not just have happened, but there's no large-scale effort to reverse course or to change course or to do something about it, or at least to make people aware of the impact that plastics are having on us. Let me tell you a story about a friend of mine. [swallows] Um, there's a, a guy named Philip Franklin Lee, who is a, uh, Michelin star chef that, uh, lives in Austin, and, um, he has, uh, this, uh, amazing sushi restaurant, Sushi by Scratch, and great chef. Anyway, um, he was, uh, experiencing fatigue, like always tired. Got his hormones tested, extremely low testosterone.

Shanna H. Swan 3:20 Mm.

Joe Rogan 3:20 But then got his microplastics tested, and they were off the charts. Um, did a series of interventions to try to clean his body out from that. Um, s- stopped drinking anything out of plastic, stopped using plastic. Just by whatever he did, I'm not sure if he did the plasmapheresis thing that I just did recently.

Shanna H. Swan 3:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:44 Um, his testosterone went up to 1,200 with no testosterone replacement, no nothing. Just eliminating microplastics from his life over a period of time raised his testosterone.

Shanna H. Swan 3:57 So that's fantastic, and it's what we are seeing in the, in the film and so on. I, I wanna just make a, a small point, which is microplastics and plastics and plasticizers are not identical, right?

Joe Rogan 4:12 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 4:12 Right? So, um, [clears throat] microplastics are a relatively newcomer to the scene. Of course, we've had plastics since 1950, right? Microplastics have been there but not recognized until re-relatively recently, and actually measuring them in s- in our bodies is much harder than measuring the plasticizers, which are the chemicals that are put in plastic to give them the various properties that they have.

Joe Rogan 4:39 Phthalates.

Shanna H. Swan 4:40 Phthalates is one. Bisphenol A is another. Um, and so on. So there, there are other, you know... And by the way, well, we'll come back to that later. Um, so yes, we can measure those, but measuring microplastics in, particularly if we're gonna go into your brain [chuckles] or into your testicles, you know, into a woman's placenta, obviously that's much more difficult. So, um, they're not the same, but the microplastics, what they are is the actual pieces of plastic that carry the plasticizers along with them.

Joe Rogan 5:18 Mm.

Shanna H. Swan 5:18 So they kind of piggyback on.

Joe Rogan 5:19 Wow.

Shanna H. Swan 5:19 So they do double damage because they carry the chemical h-harms, and they also physically enter the cells, right? So do you remember, I'm sure you, asbestos, you know about-

Joe Rogan 5:33 Mm-hmm

Shanna H. Swan 5:33 ... you know, and, um, silicosis. And these were o-other examples of particles that went into the body and conveyed both chemical harm and physical harm, like inflammation and so on and so forth. So they're all bad, [laughs] but they're not identical. And, and what we studied in The f- Plastic Detox, which is the film, um, that was, we did not study any microplastics. We studied w- the plasticizers. So-You probably remember, I think I told you last time, um, well, why should you remember? Anyway, [chuckles] they're, they're water-soluble.

Joe Rogan 6:11 Yeah, I do remember.

Shanna H. Swan 6:11 And so they... You remember that? You know, so they go into your urine, and, and then they're pretty easy to measure. So I'm gonna give this to you. This is a kit. Open her up. And I'll tell you what-

Joe Rogan 6:25 Okay. Learn what's inside. All right.

Shanna H. Swan 6:29 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 6:31 It looks like you pee in that.

Shanna H. Swan 6:33 Mm.

Joe Rogan 6:34 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 6:35 That's right. Keep going.

Joe Rogan 6:37 And there's more stuff in there?

Shanna H. Swan 6:38 Yep.

Joe Rogan 6:38 Okay. Um, something to send it back.

Shanna H. Swan 6:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 6:44 And then this looks like biohazard bags-

Shanna H. Swan 6:47 To put your pee in

Joe Rogan 6:47 ... so my pee doesn't kill anybody.

Shanna H. Swan 6:49 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 6:50 And, [laughs] and this is, uh, uh... It's got a QR code on it. Uh, say hello to a healthier you.

Shanna H. Swan 6:59 So those are ways to find out ways to lower your exposure.

Joe Rogan 7:02 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 7:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:03 I know, um, a lot of people get these, uh, harmful chemicals from drinking coffee, hot liquids out of paper cups.

Shanna H. Swan 7:13 Yeah, from the paper cups that are lined with, for example, bisphenols. But the coffee itself is made in a... Most coffee makers contain a lot of plastic also.

Joe Rogan 7:24 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 7:24 So it comes in both the cups and in the, the device that's making the coffee.

Joe Rogan 7:29 That's why we use metal-

Shanna H. Swan 7:30 That's good. Yeah

Joe Rogan 7:30 ... and just make a French press.

Shanna H. Swan 7:31 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:31 I do that at home, too.

Shanna H. Swan 7:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:32 I got rid of my plastic-

Shanna H. Swan 7:33 Me too

Joe Rogan 7:33 ... coffee machine.

Shanna H. Swan 7:34 Me too. Me too. So-

Joe Rogan 7:35 I was thinking about it. I was like, "Why am I pouring hot water into this plastic thing?"

Shanna H. Swan 7:39 Right? Yay. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 7:39 That can't be good. Yeah. And it doesn't taste as good.

Shanna H. Swan 7:42 You're learning. You're learning. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 7:43 French press tastes better anyway.

Shanna H. Swan 7:45 So here's my suggestion. If you're willing to do this-

Joe Rogan 7:49 I am willing to do this.

Shanna H. Swan 7:50 You are. Good.

Joe Rogan 7:50 Yes.

Shanna H. Swan 7:51 Cool. So not hard.

Joe Rogan 7:53 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 7:53 Pee in the cup, send it in. Then-

Joe Rogan 7:55 Got it

Shanna H. Swan 7:56 ... my f- colleague Jenna Wah and her team will analyze it for, not everything in the world, but the bisphenols, the, um, phthalates, and the parabens.

Joe Rogan 8:07 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 8:08 That's what they're... They're gonna be adding pesticides soon, and that would be great to have that as well.

Joe Rogan 8:13 Mm.

Shanna H. Swan 8:13 Um, then if you wanna go to phase two, I can... Th- I have some things here that you could swap in your kitchen, and you could go to that QR code and find out other things that you could reduce. And then if you wanted to, we could send you another kit, and you could see if your levels changed.

Joe Rogan 8:36 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 8:37 You wanna do that?

Joe Rogan 8:37 I would love to do that.

Shanna H. Swan 8:38 Yay. [laughs] So-

Joe Rogan 8:40 What is, what is phase two?

Shanna H. Swan 8:42 Uh, phase two would mail, mail you back another kit.

Joe Rogan 8:44 Uh-huh.

Shanna H. Swan 8:45 You take your urine again, and that's it. And-

Joe Rogan 8:47 And so that's to see if it's changed because of lifestyle changes.

Shanna H. Swan 8:51 That's right.

Joe Rogan 8:52 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 8:52 That's right. So you would be doing what the couples in-- part of what the couples in the intervention did. The couples in the intervention also were, were infertile, and so we're not gonna touch your fertility [chuckles] question, but they also... The men collected sperm. And you-- we can do that if you want, but I don't think you... You know, you may not wanna talk about that on your [laughs] podcast. And it-- but, um, that's what we did in the intervention. So we, in the intervention, we found... I'll just... This is, this is what the intervention was. There's a company called Fellow, which has gr- grown out of UCSF, and they're very big now. I th- think they have, like, 200,000 men in their files who have had their semen tested. Okay? And at the time they're have their semen tested, they're asked, "Could we recontact you for research?" That's one important question. And they're asked, "Why did you want your sperm tested?" And if they say, "Because we're infertile, or sub fertile, or we're worrying about our fertility," we ask, or they ask, "How long has it been that you've been having this problem with fertility?" And if it's more than 12 months, then they're technically infertile, right? So if they said they would agree to be recontacted and they were infertile, they were potentially eligible for this intervention. You with me?

Joe Rogan 10:27 Got it.

Shanna H. Swan 10:28 So w- actually finding the couples that are in the film was a long process. They had to, of course, agree to be filmed. They had to have what we call i- t- a terrible word, idiopathic infertility, no known causes. So they... And they couldn't be obese. They couldn't be smokers. They couldn't have a diagnosis, a medical diagnosis that explains. We don't want it to be unexplained.

Joe Rogan 10:52 Got it.

Shanna H. Swan 10:53 Okay? So w- sort of we winnowed down to what was six couples. One of them dropped out, um, for personal reasons. So I won't go into that. But, um, that's how we got those couples. And they had to be couples, by the way, and they had to be staying together for the next three months and not doing IVF. Okay?

Joe Rogan 11:14 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 11:15 So that's the, that was the setup. And, and then the company called Million Marker that you're gonna send your pee to, um, they have a education program, and that's a lot of what they do, the testing and the education. And so all of those couples, you know, they talked to them and said, "Tell me about what you put on your face this morning. Tell me what you washed your clothes with. Tell me what you clean your counters with," and on and on and on like that, right?

Joe Rogan 11:46 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 11:46 So they took an inventory of what the couples were doing. And then they started this educational program, which they're very good at and have been do- doing for a while. Once a week, they talk to them. "So how's it going? Have you changed this? What are, what are you using now?" And so on. So it was not just a one-time thing. Um, and if you were doing this, it would be short. You know, just, like, use these things [chuckles] maybe. Um, butAlong with that, [clears throat] we sent them the fellow kits to collect their semen. Okay? So we have beginning, middle, and end. It was three months, so beginning six weeks, 12 weeks. And you know why three months?

Joe Rogan 12:31 Why?

Shanna H. Swan 12:32 Takes 70 days to make a sperm.

Joe Rogan 12:34 Mm.

Shanna H. Swan 12:35 So we wanted to have a turnover within the course of the intervention. Yeah. So, so they... We sent them a kit, and they collected their semen at home, which is nice for guys because you don't have to go into lab and do it there. You know, it's, it's much better-

Joe Rogan 12:49 Awkward

Shanna H. Swan 12:49 ... at home, right?

Joe Rogan 12:50 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 12:51 And they send it in, and, and they figured out how to get all the parameters right even though it's mailed, and, um, yeah. So the couples did that. [clears throat] So we had, over time, levels in their body of the chemicals, semen quality, what they were doing to... What they changed in their life, 'cause we had this record of everything they changed, and then finally, we saw who got pregnant. And I hope your listeners will watch The Plastic Detox. It's a movie that a lot of people love and, and found, you know, really moving, um, and you should watch it. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 13:31 Can I ask you about the coffee question? When you go to a place like, let's just say Starbucks, not to single them out, but-

Shanna H. Swan 13:38 Yeah

Joe Rogan 13:38 ... are they using plastic with their coffee machines? Are their coffee machines made with plastic?

Shanna H. Swan 13:44 I, I don't, I don't know about any particular place except my kitchen.

Joe Rogan 13:49 I was just-

Shanna H. Swan 13:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:49 Well, the question was-

Shanna H. Swan 13:50 Yeah, I suspect that they are using plastic.

Joe Rogan 13:53 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 13:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:53 So if people stop at a place like that on a regular basis on their way to work in the morning to get coffee, and they use... They bring their own plast- Or excuse me, they, they bring their own stainless steel thermos or mug, that would eliminate some of it, but perhaps-

Shanna H. Swan 14:08 One source. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:09 Yeah, but perhaps they're getting it actually from the coffee machine itself. 'Cause I see-

Shanna H. Swan 14:15 Yes

Joe Rogan 14:15 ... when they slide those-

Shanna H. Swan 14:16 Yes, yes, yes. That's right

Joe Rogan 14:17 ... when you see these big industrial machines-

Shanna H. Swan 14:19 Yes

Joe Rogan 14:19 ... and they slide those filters in, those filters are plastic.

Shanna H. Swan 14:22 Yeah. Yeah. Well, they're, they're probably... They probably have bisphenol in them, yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:27 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 14:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:27 It's a plastic tray.

Shanna H. Swan 14:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:28 It seem-

Shanna H. Swan 14:29 Right.

Joe Rogan 14:29 It seems like.

Shanna H. Swan 14:29 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 14:29 I don't know.

Shanna H. Swan 14:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:30 But then there's a paper filter in the plastic tray, and-

Shanna H. Swan 14:33 Right. Yeah

Joe Rogan 14:34 ... so you're getting it no matter what.

Shanna H. Swan 14:35 And, and if they use those pods-

Joe Rogan 14:37 Uh-huh

Shanna H. Swan 14:38 ... you know-

Joe Rogan 14:38 Yeah

Shanna H. Swan 14:39 ... [laughs] at home. Bruno, one of our guys in the film, wonderful guy, he, he was ad- kind of addicted to his coffee machine, his pods.

Joe Rogan 14:50 Right, the pods.

Shanna H. Swan 14:51 And we said, "Bruno, we want you to stop using those pods." "No, I don't wanna stop using them." [laughs] But he did. He did, and, um, they've had two babies. Yeah. Now, I'm not, not saying that's the reason, but, you know, it's a c- contribution probably.

Joe Rogan 15:06 Well, there is certainly an issue.

Shanna H. Swan 15:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:08 Like I said with my friend Philip, that it made a radical difference in his sperm count-

Shanna H. Swan 15:12 Yeah

Joe Rogan 15:12 ... and his testosterone levels. And so this is probably the case with so many Americans in this country that are dealing with infertility issues. A big part of it is probably these p- plasticizers. Is that how you referred them?

Shanna H. Swan 15:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:26 Plasticizers, all these various chemicals that are endocrine disruptors that are ubiquitous in the modern world.

Shanna H. Swan 15:32 Yes. Unfortunately.

Joe Rogan 15:34 It's crazy.

Shanna H. Swan 15:34 And by the way, not y- the women... Let me show you something. We, you, we didn't talk about the women last time very much, right?

Joe Rogan 15:39 Right. Well, a little bit we did.

Shanna H. Swan 15:40 Little.

Joe Rogan 15:40 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 15:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:41 We, we, we... I think we did.

Shanna H. Swan 15:43 So the women need testosterone, too-

Joe Rogan 15:46 Mm-hmm

Shanna H. Swan 15:46 ... um, you know, for sexual arousal and libido and so on, and, and muscle. And, um, and we, in our, um, one of our, our study, study for Future Families, I think, or maybe... Yeah. Um, [clears throat] we asked... We got the urine, and we saw what they h- you know, how much phthalates were in their urine, and then we asked them some questions about their sexual experience. So how satisfied were they with their sexual, sexual life, um, and frequency. And the women who had higher levels of phthalates were, had less satisfaction and lower frequency. So it's not just the men.

Joe Rogan 16:32 Completely makes sense.

Shanna H. Swan 16:34 Everyone needs testosterone.

Joe Rogan 16:35 Yeah. My wife's friend got on testosterone. She's, uh, I guess she's about 50. She got on testosterone 'cause of her, her doctor put her on some low level of cream or something like that.

Shanna H. Swan 16:46 Mm.

Joe Rogan 16:46 And her, her response was like, "It makes me horny like a bloke." She's English. [laughs]

Shanna H. Swan 16:53 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 16:55 I thought that was a very funny thing that she said it that way.

Shanna H. Swan 16:59 Did she think that was a good thing?

Joe Rogan 17:01 Yeah, she enjoyed it.

Shanna H. Swan 17:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:02 Apparently.

Shanna H. Swan 17:03 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:03 Allegedly.

Shanna H. Swan 17:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:04 I didn't speak to her directly.

Shanna H. Swan 17:05 [laughs] Right.

Joe Rogan 17:06 But I think that's what she was saying.

Shanna H. Swan 17:07 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 17:07 Like, whoa.

Shanna H. Swan 17:09 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:09 You know? Just whoa.

Shanna H. Swan 17:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:10 Well, I mean, it's... The, the thing that came out of your, um, the episode that we did, um, that shocked me the most is how little this is discussed in the mainstream, and, uh, I had not known until you brought it up, until you became a, a guest on the show, until I started researching it. I was stunned. I, I couldn't believe that this was something that was so common and so... So one of the things that comes up all the time is infertility with couples that are trying, and they're using IVF, and it's more common now than ever before, and there's been a lot of things that people, a lot of factors that people have attributed to that reason, uh, a lot of them being older people that are, you know, they put their careers as- aside. In their 30s, they decided now it's time to have kids. They're worried that it's too late. Um, but listening to you talk about it, it seems like that's only one part of the, the issue, and not the big part. The big part seems to be that we're being poisoned, and we're doing it by virtue of our modern world that we live in, where so much of your life relies on plastic.And it's very difficult for people that are so set in their ways, they have routines, they don't really understand, like wh-what can I do to eliminate this stuff from my life? Just having the conversation and understanding that these things are having an impact is great, but the steps that people need to take in order to eliminate these things from their life, I think that's what's really important to get out there now.

Shanna H. Swan 18:43 I... Thank you. You said it really well. Um, let me just give people a, um, a place to go. You go to unplasticyourlife.com, okay?

Joe Rogan 18:54 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 18:54 And then there's action, and then you can go to the various places in your home that you can-

Joe Rogan 18:59 It's just unplasticyourlife, one word?

Shanna H. Swan 19:02 Unplastic.

Joe Rogan 19:03 Un- unplastic.

Shanna H. Swan 19:03 Unplastic.

Joe Rogan 19:03 Unplasticyourlife.

Shanna H. Swan 19:04 Unplasticyourlife.com. Yeah. Um, let me see if I got that. Yeah, so unplasticyourlife.com, go to Action Hub, and then to Protect Yourself.

Joe Rogan 19:14 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 19:14 And that'll give you lots of things to do [laughs] to lower these exposures.

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Joe Rogan 20:19 an $111 value at drinkag1.com/joerogan. Non-stick cookware.

Shanna H. Swan 20:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:28 Um, that stuff has-

Shanna H. Swan 20:30 That's different.

Joe Rogan 20:30 Is that different?

Shanna H. Swan 20:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:31 It was when you have non-stick cookware, does that have any endocrine-

Shanna H. Swan 20:35 Yes

Joe Rogan 20:35 ... disrupting chemicals as well?

Shanna H. Swan 20:36 Yes.

Joe Rogan 20:36 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 20:36 But different ones.

Joe Rogan 20:37 Different ones?

Shanna H. Swan 20:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:37 Well, which ones are those?

Shanna H. Swan 20:38 So those are what's called the PFAS chemicals.

Joe Rogan 20:41 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 20:42 And [clears throat] it's in actually not just cookware. It's anything that pu-put-puts a barrier between two medium, if you will. Um, like a rain jacket will put a barrier between the rain and your skin.

Joe Rogan 20:57 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 20:58 Um, [clears throat] and, uh, also stain resistant. It'll barrier with the st- the stain. Um, and it's very, very prevalent. I mean, it-it's all your... You know, it's in clothing, it's in-

Joe Rogan 21:14 I've read it's in a lot of yoga tights and things along those lines.

Shanna H. Swan 21:17 Yes. Yes. Workout clothes.

Joe Rogan 21:18 That's so crazy.

Shanna H. Swan 21:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:19 You think you're being healthy-

Shanna H. Swan 21:20 Yeah

Joe Rogan 21:20 ... and you're exposing yourself to endocrine-disrupting chemicals.

Shanna H. Swan 21:24 And uniforms. There's a book. I-I-I don't... Should, probably shouldn't recommend another book, but I think it's a good book, [laughs] I'll just say. It's called To Dye For, [clears throat] D-Y-E.

Joe Rogan 21:34 Uh-huh.

Shanna H. Swan 21:34 And it's about the flight attendants' uniforms and the harms that they do because they're coated, they have a lot of PFAS 'cause they, you know, have to keep clean, and the... And, and they've got... They're not clean, right?

Joe Rogan 21:46 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 21:46 Because they have this PFAS in the... It's in sports uniforms.

Joe Rogan 21:50 Oh, wow.

Shanna H. Swan 21:50 You, you do a lot of sports. All the sports uniforms.

Joe Rogan 21:52 Nylon.

Shanna H. Swan 21:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:54 Yeah. Is it anything with nylon? Is that what it is?

Shanna H. Swan 21:57 No, I-

Joe Rogan 21:57 All nylons?

Shanna H. Swan 21:57 Probably, but I'm not sure. I'm not... You know, I could refer you to somebody, but I'm not the clothing expert, but I know that they're in these things. And one of the things that is kind of scary, um, is school uniforms. You know, a lot of kids ha-have school uniforms-

Joe Rogan 22:14 Yes

Shanna H. Swan 22:14 ... and they're loaded with it.

Joe Rogan 22:15 Oh.

Shanna H. Swan 22:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:17 Yeah, my kids used to wear a uniform every day.

Shanna H. Swan 22:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:19 When you, uh, you say to dye for, are dyes in cotton clothes also releasing-

Shanna H. Swan 22:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:26 Really?

Shanna H. Swan 22:26 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:27 Boy.

Shanna H. Swan 22:27 Dyes are, dyes are very risky. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 22:31 We gotta go back to being Amish.

Shanna H. Swan 22:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:33 Here it is.

Speaker 22:33 There's a violin from the book there.

Shanna H. Swan 22:34 Oh, good. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:35 It says, "In fact, there's little or no regulation of clothes or textiles we wear each day, from uniforms to fast fashion, outdoor gear, and even the face masks that have become ubiquitous in recent years. Wicker explains how we got here, what the stakes are, and what all of us can do in the fight for a safe and healthy wardrobe for all." Wow.

Shanna H. Swan 22:54 And that's in the film. It's discussed in the film.

Joe Rogan 22:56 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 22:57 A little bit. Not the major, but it's, it's used, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:59 So blue jeans?

Shanna H. Swan 23:02 Probably.

Joe Rogan 23:03 Probably.

Shanna H. Swan 23:04 I can't, you know, speak about it definitively.

Joe Rogan 23:06 There is a river, uh, I believe it's in China, where a, a series of blue jean factories exist-

Shanna H. Swan 23:14 Oh

Joe Rogan 23:14 ... where the entire river is blue.

Shanna H. Swan 23:17 Oh.

Joe Rogan 23:17 It's so disgusting. Like, not blue like beautiful, clean water.

Shanna H. Swan 23:21 Yeah. Right, right.

Joe Rogan 23:22 Blue like dye.

Shanna H. Swan 23:23 Dyed water. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 23:24 Like dy- look at this. Look at that.

Shanna H. Swan 23:27 Oof.

Joe Rogan 23:27 That's the blue jean capital of the world.

Shanna H. Swan 23:30 Wow.

Joe Rogan 23:30 That's where they make a lot of blue jeans, and look at the stinky, dirty, disgusting blue dye water that is just that river leaking out into the ocean, which also looks polluted.

Shanna H. Swan 23:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:42 You want cheap clothes, kids? This is what happens.

Shanna H. Swan 23:45 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 23:46 It's so crazy. Like, look at that stuff.

Shanna H. Swan 23:48 Mm.

Joe Rogan 23:48 I mean, how many jeans are they making?

Shanna H. Swan 23:50 Mm.

Joe Rogan 23:52 And what are the, you know-

Shanna H. Swan 23:55 And this is a good point for me to point out that these things are affecting animals, of course. Like the animals, fish in this-

Joe Rogan 24:03 Africa too. Look at this. African rivers as well.

Shanna H. Swan 24:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:05 Gee. Of course we do it in other places. If we did it in America, people would be aware.

Speaker 24:12 Canada.

Joe Rogan 24:13 Canada too.

Shanna H. Swan 24:14 I'm not sure they'd be aware.

Joe Rogan 24:15 You don't think so?

Shanna H. Swan 24:16 Eh.

Joe Rogan 24:17 We're trying.

Shanna H. Swan 24:18 We're trying.

Joe Rogan 24:19 We're trying to get them aware.

Shanna H. Swan 24:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:20 I mean, that's what we're doing right now, right?

Shanna H. Swan 24:22 Yeah, [laughs] right. So to go back to that point you raised about, you know-Reasons that people give for low testosterone or low fertility, low sperm count, [clears throat] and particularly this comes up for fertility. Cou- more couples are... You know the fertility is in the toilet, right?

Joe Rogan 24:42 Yes.

Shanna H. Swan 24:42 Yeah. That's a weird thing to say, but [both laughing] yeah, right.

Joe Rogan 24:47 For lack of a better-

Shanna H. Swan 24:48 Right, right, right.

Joe Rogan 24:49 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 24:49 Um, [clears throat] and, um, I mean, it used to be five children per couple on the average in 1960, and now it's, in South Korea, it's like 0.88.

Joe Rogan 25:04 Wow.

Shanna H. Swan 25:05 That's the worst, you know, um-

Joe Rogan 25:07 Why is South Korea the worst?

Shanna H. Swan 25:08 I don't know. I mean, all of East, Asia is very, very low.

Joe Rogan 25:11 South Korea's, their replacement numbers are so low-

Shanna H. Swan 25:15 That's right

Joe Rogan 25:15 ... that it's, they're in danger of complete population collapse.

Shanna H. Swan 25:18 Absolutely. And, and Japan is getting there and, you know, all of that Southeast Asia. [clears throat] And, um, so when there's a lot of articles about this, a lot of editorials, a lot of articles, and they make me so, Joe, they make me so mad because they say correctly that having a child at older age will do this to some extent. You know, not wanting to have a children, as many children, will do this to some extent, but they never mention toxics.

Joe Rogan 25:52 Mm.

Shanna H. Swan 25:53 They just-- And so I've written editorials saying, "Hey guys, we're not alone on this planet, and we're not the only species that's declining in number." And then if you look at the curve of the number of species that are declining and the rate of decline of human fertility, they're parallel. It's all, all about 1% per year. And, and so they're... And we know they're exposed, these other species. You showed it.

Joe Rogan 26:21 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 26:21 Those fish in that water are exposed and, you know, animals on the periphery. So I would love for everybody when they look at these numbers of declining fertility, consider that it's not all choice.

Joe Rogan 26:37 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 26:38 Animals are not choosing to have their children later or to delay childbearing, right?

Joe Rogan 26:43 They have big careers.

Shanna H. Swan 26:45 [laughing] Right.

Joe Rogan 26:45 Beavers are trying to make dams. They don't have time for children.

Shanna H. Swan 26:48 Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So for, for me, you know, it's not... Th-there-- Those are good, those are explanations for sure. Obviously, when you get older, your fertility is less. Obviously, if you're, have a busy life and you don't have time to have children, you shouldn't have children. But the toxics matter.

Joe Rogan 27:11 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 27:11 They matter a lot.

Joe Rogan 27:12 100%.

Shanna H. Swan 27:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:13 And the animals, uh, is the issue exposure to water that has these chemicals in it because of pollution? What is, what is causing it with animals?

Shanna H. Swan 27:24 It's all, it's in the water. It's in the soil. It's, um, in the f- what they eat because it comes in, you know, in the plants. Um, it-

Joe Rogan 27:34 It gets into the plants?

Shanna H. Swan 27:35 Yeah. Do you know that phthalates, I'm just, this is a little fun fact. Phthalates are put in pesticides. Why would they do that? Well, they, because one of the things that phthalates do is they increase absorption. That's why they're in hand cream.

Joe Rogan 27:53 Oh.

Shanna H. Swan 27:53 Right? You see, you put your ha- the cream on, it goes in your skin, right? Phthalates help that. You w- you have the pesticide you want it to go into the plant, phthalates help that. So you know, they're, these exposures are all over the place for, and animals are getting them too. A long time ago, I don't think we talked about this, but there was a wonderful scientist who's not living anymore. His name was Lou Gillette. He lived in Florida, and he showed that alligators swimming in a lake that had a lot of runoff of pesticides. Get this, their penises were small.

Joe Rogan 28:33 Mm.

Shanna H. Swan 28:34 He measured them, and he was, he was a big, he's like you, he was a big guy. He, he went... He had to do it at night. He went at night, wrestled them into the boat.

Joe Rogan 28:43 [laughing]

Shanna H. Swan 28:45 And I have pictures of that. Took them to his lab.

Joe Rogan 28:47 Measured their penises.

Shanna H. Swan 28:48 Measured their penises.

Joe Rogan 28:49 They must have been very confused when they got let go.

Shanna H. Swan 28:52 [laughing]

Joe Rogan 28:52 Like, "What is this guy kinky with? What is his thing?"

Shanna H. Swan 28:55 [laughing] You know, and, and they, and they had fewer eggs.

Joe Rogan 29:01 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 29:03 So they're a declining species. That's just a very dramatic example of, uh, you know, if you... Can you put up, mm, penis size and-

Speaker 29:14 And what?

Shanna H. Swan 29:14 ... alligator penis size?

Speaker 29:15 [laughing]

Shanna H. Swan 29:15 I'm just wondering. Am I-

Joe Rogan 29:17 As if you don't already Google that, Jamie.

Speaker 29:19 Let me find you a photo.

Shanna H. Swan 29:22 [laughing]

Speaker 29:23 Uh, I asked our, uh, Perplexity this thing, and it says, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:25 So our sponsor, Perplexity, said, "Yes, this has actually been documented in wild alligators. Males in heavily polluted lakes have, on average, smaller penises and other reproductive problems linked to hormone-disrupting chemicals." We are shrinking alligator penises, ladies and gentlemen.

Shanna H. Swan 29:42 And not only alligator penises.

Joe Rogan 29:43 Twenty to twenty-five percent smaller penis sizes-

Shanna H. Swan 29:46 Yeah

Joe Rogan 29:46 ... compared to males from a cleaner reference lake.

Shanna H. Swan 29:49 And you-

Joe Rogan 29:49 Males have lower testosterone levels, around seventy percent lower. Abnormal relationships between hormone levels and penis growth, unlike alligators from cleaner lakes. Alligators from polluted lakes also show other reproductive issues, abnormal sex hormone patterns, altered gonads, low hatching success, various birth defects, all consistent with exposure to endocrine-disrupting contaminants, EDCs, such as DDT derivatives, uh, dieldrin-

Shanna H. Swan 30:16 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 30:16 ... PCBs, and related compounds. Wow. So it's all endocrine disruptors from pollution. Oh, boy. Yeah, I mean, you would think that this would sound the alarm on-

Shanna H. Swan 30:30 And this is not new. This is... He's dead. This is old work.

Joe Rogan 30:34 Oh.And no one knows.

Shanna H. Swan 30:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:38 Yeah, it's never discussed. And first of all-

Shanna H. Swan 30:40 Yeah

Joe Rogan 30:40 ... there's not a lot of people that say, "First problem on my list today, alligator penis sizes."

Shanna H. Swan 30:45 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 30:45 It's a real issue.

Shanna H. Swan 30:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 30:46 Like, you're in front of Congress, "We gotta talk. Alligator-"

Shanna H. Swan 30:49 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 30:49 "... penis sizes are shrinking." They'd kick you out of the building.

Shanna H. Swan 30:51 Actually, he, Lou Guillette, went to Congress and he gave a talk.

Joe Rogan 30:58 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 30:58 And he said, "Every man in this room is half the man his grandfather was."

Joe Rogan 31:04 Mm. As far as testosterone levels, right?

Shanna H. Swan 31:08 And penis si- Well, he didn't measure their penis. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 31:10 Oh.

Shanna H. Swan 31:11 But, but, but [laughs] like-

Joe Rogan 31:12 Dig grandpa up and check it out

Shanna H. Swan 31:12 ... Lou, he was making this point.

Joe Rogan 31:13 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 31:13 You know?

Joe Rogan 31:14 I understand.

Shanna H. Swan 31:14 In fertility and all this. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:16 Well, I mean, it completely makes sense, but what doesn't make sense is how little attention that's being paid. You would think that in a society that is fa- I mean, America is also facing a potential population-

Shanna H. Swan 31:27 Mm. Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 31:27 ... collapse. People don't think about that, but our reproduction numbers-

Shanna H. Swan 31:30 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 31:31 ... we're not reprodu- Yeah, they're, they're down quite a bit and they're not at the level that we need in order to keep our population.

Shanna H. Swan 31:38 It's the... You know, the normal shape of the population is like this, right?

Joe Rogan 31:42 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 31:43 So this is up here, not very many people, and down here, lots and lots of people.

Joe Rogan 31:47 And this is terms of age.

Shanna H. Swan 31:48 And it's like-

Joe Rogan 31:49 Older, younger at the bottom

Shanna H. Swan 31:50 ... going like this.

Joe Rogan 31:50 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 31:51 Yeah. Lots of people are living longer, but few are down here. And then what that means is the ones down here are supposed to support the ones up here.

Joe Rogan 32:00 But there's not enough of them.

Shanna H. Swan 32:01 But not enough of them.

Joe Rogan 32:02 Right. Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 32:04 So the, it's a huge societal problem. Um-

Joe Rogan 32:07 Well, it's just so confusing how few people are even aware of this. We were talking... I didn't realize it had been five years since our last podcast, which is pretty crazy, but in that five years you barely hear about it. Y- it's occasional. People bring up certain chemicals they think are bad. "I'll avoid this." Uh, Paul Saladino was the one that showed that the paper cups that you get from a coffee shop, that if you take that paper away, what you have is essentially this plastic membrane, and that's what you're drinking your coffee out of. You're not drinking your, your coffee out of paper. And how terrible these things are for you.

Shanna H. Swan 32:44 Yeah. Mm.

Joe Rogan 32:44 But even that, it's like people just dismiss it. The line around Starbucks is always the same. There's always people going to get their coffee. They don't think anything of it, and they're just consuming these chemicals that mess up your health, mess up your vitality, your, your energy levels, everything, brain fog, all this.

Shanna H. Swan 33:02 But whose, whose, whose responsibility is it, you know?

Joe Rogan 33:04 Well, to talk about it, I think it's ours. It's certainly yours-

Shanna H. Swan 33:07 You and me, or-

Joe Rogan 33:08 ... and mine. And, well, we'll spread this word and more people discuss it. Um, and I think more people need to be aware that this directly impacts you. Like, this is not like in the future, I don't have to think about it, I'll be dead. No, it's, it directly impacts your health, your energy levels, your vitality right now as a living human being listening to this show.

Shanna H. Swan 33:33 So just to add to that, how it affects you, not you.

Joe Rogan 33:38 Humans.

Shanna H. Swan 33:39 Maybe your levels are lower, I don't know. [laughs] But we'll find out. But, um, both men and women who have lower fertility on average, these are studies, there have been about four or five studies that have shown this, lower fertility and sperm count on the male side die younger. Die younger, okay? This is, should be of concern to everybody.

Joe Rogan 34:03 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 34:04 You know, life-

Joe Rogan 34:04 Well, it makes sense

Shanna H. Swan 34:05 ... expectancy is sh- Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:06 You have less vitality.

Shanna H. Swan 34:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:07 You have less energy.

Shanna H. Swan 34:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:08 Less life force.

Shanna H. Swan 34:08 And the things that affect your sperm, your vitality, your testosterone are also affecting other... It's a, it's a canary in the coal mine, if you will-

Joe Rogan 34:17 Mm-hmm

Shanna H. Swan 34:17 ... of lots of things that are going south-

Joe Rogan 34:19 Right

Shanna H. Swan 34:20 ... at the same time.

Joe Rogan 34:21 Which completely makes sense, and as the case of my friend Philip, all this fatigue, all these issues that he was-

Shanna H. Swan 34:26 Right

Joe Rogan 34:26 ... experiencing. Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 34:28 Yeah, it's not just one, never just one thing.

Joe Rogan 34:30 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 34:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:32 It's, uh, it is quite disturbing how uncommon these discussions are, though. That's what's crazy, you know, that this is a, this should be a huge factor. I mean, we get concerned with so many... Oh, there's people concerned with alcohol consumption. It's a big thing. Like, and that has had an impact. Children today, or y- young adults I should say, today are consuming much less alcohol than people in the past. Cigarette smoking, we're aware, very dangerous. Much less cigarette smoking than in the past. The consumption of these en- endocrine disrupting chemicals is es- essentially the same as when we talked five years ago.

Shanna H. Swan 35:12 So I wanna go back to this question I asked, is whose responsibility? So I don't think it's... I mean, it's great for you and I to be concerned and for your listeners to be concerned, but in fact, it's n- shouldn't be our responsibility because the, you know, the drug, FDA does drugs, right?

Joe Rogan 35:32 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 35:32 They have pretty good control of, you know, safety of drugs.

Joe Rogan 35:35 Eh.

Shanna H. Swan 35:36 Pretty good.

Joe Rogan 35:37 Eh.

Shanna H. Swan 35:38 Yeah. Okay, we can talk about [laughs] ...

Joe Rogan 35:40 [laughs]

Shanna H. Swan 35:40 But, but compared to chemicals in our daily products, the products we use every day, it's fantastic because-

Joe Rogan 35:50 Right

Shanna H. Swan 35:50 ... the regulatory agencies are not doing the job.

Joe Rogan 35:54 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 35:55 Okay? And so that's why it's all out there [laughs] because they're not doing the job here. In Europe, it's much better, by the way.

Joe Rogan 36:01 Is it?

Shanna H. Swan 36:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:03 Well, that's bad 'cause they're gonna beat us. They'll r- out reproduce us. We'll go away-

Shanna H. Swan 36:07 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 36:07 ... and they'll take over. [laughs]

Shanna H. Swan 36:09 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 36:09 No more America.

Shanna H. Swan 36:10 We have to get people angry-

Joe Rogan 36:14 Yes

Shanna H. Swan 36:14 ... enough to put pressure on... You know, there, there's a bill, the TSCA, Toxic Substances Control Act, which should be doing a lot of this, and I think it's coming up for revision and, and, you know, maybe people can pay attention to that and read about it and, you know, think, "Government should be doing this. It's not our job."

Joe Rogan 36:39 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 36:39 It's not our job to worry about what's in our pants and what's in our this and our this and our this and-

Joe Rogan 36:45 Right

Shanna H. Swan 36:45 ... you were asking what kind, what's in [laughs] you know, denim and so on. W- should we have to read up on that?

Joe Rogan 36:50 Is there, are there dyes for jeans and clothes that are not toxic?

Shanna H. Swan 36:58 Yes, but as I said-

Joe Rogan 36:59 Are they more expensive?

Shanna H. Swan 36:59 ... this is not my area.

Joe Rogan 37:01 I understand.

Shanna H. Swan 37:01 Yeah, you gotta get... I can give you a name if you want [laughs] somebody on clothing and, you know, on this, uh-

Joe Rogan 37:06 Yeah, I'd be happy to.

Shanna H. Swan 37:07 Yeah, yeah. But, um, just because it was, was relatively new to my consciousness when I was, you know, doing the film, and before that, I, we didn't collect data on that, unfortunately. You know, maybe we should do another study. Which reminds me, there is just, like, so much work to be done, and for my program, there's so many interventions I wanna do. That we did this one, which great success, and now we're doing another one, and we have another one. But if anybody wants to help, [laughs] you know, with this, it's all privately funded.

Joe Rogan 37:42 Mm.

Shanna H. Swan 37:43 The government is not gonna fund this.

Joe Rogan 37:45 Right. Unfortunately.

Shanna H. Swan 37:46 Unfortunately. So, you know-

Joe Rogan 37:49 I think-

Shanna H. Swan 37:49 Let me know if anybody comes to you and says, "How can we help?" and all of that. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 37:52 Well, I'm sure somebody will reach out.

Shanna H. Swan 37:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:53 They usually do. Um, the, the thing that I, I would imagine would be the response to something like this was that there are so many industries that are established already that require the use of all these compounds, all these chemicals, all these endocrine-disrupting chemicals, and it is, uh, it's just everywhere. It's everywhere in everything. They use plastic in the production of so many different things. These things are leaching into our food. They're leaching into our clothes. They're leaching into all these various products that we use that contribute to these chemicals entering into our body, disrupting that. I, uh, so, like, you, you're aware of glyphosate, I'm sure. Um, they were trying to eliminate glyphosate from the industrial agriculture-

Shanna H. Swan 38:41 Good luck

Joe Rogan 38:41 ... and it... Exactly. Well, the president passed an executive order blocking it because some enormous percent, 90-something percent of all of our food, in, when, in terms of wheat, corn, all the agriculture in this country relies on glyphosate for production. And so the, the idea is we need poison so that we can make food, which is so crazy, especially when you consider the fact that all these other countries don't use glyphosate and feed their population. So how are they doing it?

Shanna H. Swan 39:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 39:15 And what do we need to do-

Shanna H. Swan 39:16 Right

Joe Rogan 39:16 ... to, to get back on that track? And s- you know, I had, uh, RFK Jr. in here to discuss it, and he was very crestfallen when he was explaining that there was an executive order passed and that, you know, he was working very hard to try to eliminate glyphosate. It's something that he discussed in, you know, previous meetings that he and I had. It was one of his primary concerns. Glyphosate is toxic. It's terrible. It's just completely awful for your body, yet the use of it is ubiquitous in agriculture, industrial agri-

Shanna H. Swan 39:44 Yeah

Joe Rogan 39:44 ... agriculture. And he was trying very hard to try to eliminate it, and then the government passes this executive order because-

Shanna H. Swan 39:54 Pressure

Joe Rogan 39:54 ... in their estimation-

Shanna H. Swan 39:55 Pressure.

Joe Rogan 39:55 Yeah, exactly.

Shanna H. Swan 39:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:55 Pressure. Exa- yeah. And this is what I worry about with-

Shanna H. Swan 39:59 Yeah, of course

Joe Rogan 39:59 ... and I don't wanna men-mention any names, but there's a lot of these popular clothing brands that people wear that are, you know, "Fitness. I'm healthy. I'm fitness wear." And these fitness wear that you're... these clothings that you're wearing are leaching these chemicals into your body-

Shanna H. Swan 40:14 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 40:15 ... that are screwing up your health, which is so crazy.

Shanna H. Swan 40:17 Crazy, right?

Joe Rogan 40:18 But it's so... I don't wanna say it's perfect, but it, it sort of encapsulates how screwed up our modern life is.

Shanna H. Swan 40:26 The paradox. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:26 Yes.

Shanna H. Swan 40:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:27 The paradox.

Shanna H. Swan 40:27 Yeah. So I did a study on glyphosate. I mean, I examined our populations for glyphosate, and interestingly, they also have an effect on... Remember anogenital distance?

Joe Rogan 40:40 Yes. The taint size.

Shanna H. Swan 40:41 The AGD? The taint size.

Joe Rogan 40:43 Yes.

Shanna H. Swan 40:43 They influence the taint size.

Joe Rogan 40:45 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 40:45 Now, that's not... We did it in two studies, and there's been some animal studies. I can't say this is an established fact, but I'm just pointing out that it has very, you know, many unforeseen consequences, none of them good. And by the way, I was asked to go to talk to RFK tomorrow, but I can't 'cause I have another, [laughs] another call, a meeting. But, but, um, I would love to talk to him about this because this, this, glyphosate is a, a big concern of mine. Yeah, big concern.

Joe Rogan 41:16 Well, I hope you do talk to him.

Shanna H. Swan 41:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:18 Um-

Shanna H. Swan 41:18 He, he has these roundtables-

Joe Rogan 41:20 Mm-hmm

Shanna H. Swan 41:20 ... and on different scientific topics. So this one is on microplastics, which is not perfect for me because I haven't measured them, but, but if he has one on glyphosate or pesticides, that would be a good place for it. You know, so-

Joe Rogan 41:33 Well, his hands are tied right now on the glyphosate issue-

Shanna H. Swan 41:36 Yeah

Joe Rogan 41:36 ... momentarily.

Shanna H. Swan 41:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:37 They have some non-toxic solutions. Um, one of them is they have this new device which is, it, it, like the same way these machines cro- pull the crops out of the ground.

Shanna H. Swan 41:55 Mm.

Joe Rogan 41:55 These machines go over the crops and zap all the non-essential crops with a laser beam. Non-essential crops, excuse me, non-essential plants. So weeds, I would say.

Shanna H. Swan 42:06 Mm.

Joe Rogan 42:07 So as the corn's growing or whatev-

Shanna H. Swan 42:09 Mm

Joe Rogan 42:09 ... whatever else it is, they're zapping all the other stuff that's growing around it that's sucking up all the resources.

Shanna H. Swan 42:15 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 42:15 All the weeds.

Shanna H. Swan 42:16 Interesting, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:16 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 42:17 That sounds like a good step.

Joe Rogan 42:19 That's a great step.

Shanna H. Swan 42:20 'Cause it minimizes the use of pesticides.

Joe Rogan 42:22 Exactly.

Shanna H. Swan 42:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:22 And I asked-

Shanna H. Swan 42:23 Yeah

Joe Rogan 42:23 ... "Does it have any residual effect on the food?" He said, "No." Well, that's great. But then, you know, farmers, one of the big problems is they're already barely making money.

Shanna H. Swan 42:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:33 So if you now require them to spend, you know, X amount of dollars on some gigantic weed-zapping laser that has to cover who knows how many acres, they're running these mono... I mean, I'm sure you're aware, but monocrop agricultureFor people who've never seen some of these places that grow corn and wheat, you're talking about these massive pieces of land that only grow one thing, which in nature doesn't exist.

Shanna H. Swan 43:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:01 So of course, nature wants to rectify that. Nature's like, "Why is there only wheat here? You need weeds."

Shanna H. Swan 43:06 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 43:07 And so, you know, birds drop seeds.

Shanna H. Swan 43:09 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 43:09 All these seeds fly in the wind.

Shanna H. Swan 43:11 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:11 And then all these things grow. So you're gonna have to get these machines that are capable of traveling over all of those crops and zapping out all the weeds. How much is that gonna cost to people that are already struggling?

Shanna H. Swan 43:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:25 You know, 'cause the American farmers are barely getting by, barely, and we need them. And, you know, the last thing you wanna do is burden them with another cost. But also, you know, the use of... Especially when it comes to things like wheat, because they're using it after they harvest the wheat to dry it out quicker so that it doesn't grow mold on it. That's why they're using glyphosate. So it's not even, it's not even as a pesticide.

Shanna H. Swan 43:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:50 It's, they're using it-

Shanna H. Swan 43:50 I didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 43:51 Yeah. They're using it as a, I guess, a desiccator.

Shanna H. Swan 43:53 Wow.

Joe Rogan 43:54 Yeah. And that's why so many... It's theorized to be why so many people in this country have a problem with bread, you know?

Shanna H. Swan 44:02 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:03 Which would make sense.

Shanna H. Swan 44:05 And with their ta- no. I'm just kidding. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 44:06 And their tape. Yeah. A lot of tape problems.

Shanna H. Swan 44:08 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 44:08 A lot of people are complaining. Uh, but it's just, it's so weird that we're so intelligent and so informed and, you know, now we all have super computers in our pockets that have access to things like Perplexity that can answer any questions you have about anything. But yet we're being poisoned by the very food that we eat, the coffee that we drink, the clothing that we wear.

Shanna H. Swan 44:30 The water we drink.

Joe Rogan 44:31 The water we drink. Everything.

Shanna H. Swan 44:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:33 Here's a good question. Are there any good filters on a consumer level that will remove a lot of these chemicals from water that a person could buy?

Shanna H. Swan 44:45 I can't name any brands.

Joe Rogan 44:47 Right. But are they a-

Shanna H. Swan 44:47 Yeah

Joe Rogan 44:48 ... available?

Shanna H. Swan 44:48 But yes, there are. But I, I-

Joe Rogan 44:50 Is it reverse osmosis? Like, what are the ones that work the best?

Shanna H. Swan 44:54 I'll tell you my, my solution in my house.

Joe Rogan 44:56 Yes, please.

Shanna H. Swan 44:56 Okay. [laughs] That's very personal. Um, [clears throat] we distill our water. Y- you know?

Joe Rogan 45:03 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 45:03 So, so the water out of the tap-

Joe Rogan 45:06 Mm-hmm

Shanna H. Swan 45:06 ... goes into a big container, and then it's boiled, [clears throat] steam is formed, crosses over, and the steam is condensed into another container, right?

Joe Rogan 45:16 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 45:17 And that has nothing in it and removes everything. And by the way, all germs also. So yeah. So that's what we've chosen. N- and then, and this thing that sits on the counter, um, my husband does this every other day. It's kind of a nuisance, but not too bad. And, and the water is fantastic.

Joe Rogan 45:37 Do you have to re-mineralize it?

Shanna H. Swan 45:40 You should take minerals somewhere. You can do it in the water. You can do it in your supplements. Yeah. You, you... It is, does remove the minerals, yes.

Joe Rogan 45:47 Right. And that's what I've heard is the problem with drinking distilled water, is that it actually leaches minerals and nutrients from your own body because-

Shanna H. Swan 45:55 That I don't believe.

Joe Rogan 45:56 No?

Shanna H. Swan 45:57 I don't believe that.

Joe Rogan 45:57 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 45:57 But the water itself has had its minerals re- removed.

Joe Rogan 46:00 Well, let's put it into Perplexity. What, what is the issue with drinking distilled water for health purposes? And d- is it recommended that you add electrolytes or minerals or what have you? Because, um, that's wh- so one of the things that, uh, fighters do when they're cutting weight, I don't think most of them do it anymore, but a lot of them were drinking distilled water so that the water would go in their system and right out of their system. 'Cause cutting weight for fighting, I don't know if you know about this, but-

Shanna H. Swan 46:30 Yeah

Joe Rogan 46:30 ... they have to weigh in at a certain weight class, and essentially what they do is radically dehydrate themselves 24 hours before a fight, which is not a great idea. It's a terrible idea. So Perplexity says it is generally safe to drink distilled water. Most people do not need to add minerals to it as long as they eat a reasonably balanced diet.

Shanna H. Swan 46:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:47 Distilled water simply water that's been boiled and recond- condensed, so it's very low in contaminants and minerals. Health sources note that it is safe to drink, but tends to taste flat 'cause minerals like calcium, magnesium are removed. Uh, what about minerals? You get the vast majority of needed minerals, calcium, magnesium, potassium, et cetera, from food, not water. So distilled water alone does not usually cause deficiencies in healthy people with a good diet. However, some organizations and reviews point out that long-term use of very low mineral water may slightly reduce mineral intake, and in specific groups, children, heavy exercisers, there we go, people with certain illnesses could contribute to electrolyte imbalance if diet is poor. So when might adding minerals help? Distilled water is your main or only drinking water, and your diet is low in fruits, vegetables, and other mineral rich foods, adding a pinch of mineral salt or using a re- remineralization cartridge, that sounds terrible. Cartridge sounds like plastic, right?

Shanna H. Swan 47:44 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 47:44 Or drops can help restore small amounts of calcium, magnesium, and electrolytes and improve taste. Athletes who sweat heavily, people with kidney or hormonal issues affecting electrolytes, and those on very restricted diets should be more cautious about relying exclusively on distilled water and may benefit from electrolyte or mineral replacement as advised by a clinician. Um, I, I mean, I recommend people take electrolytes anyway.

Shanna H. Swan 48:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:08 I, I always add electrolytes to water-

Shanna H. Swan 48:10 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 48:11 ... every day when I-

Shanna H. Swan 48:12 Here, here's a funny anecdote. We have a cat, and his name-

Joe Rogan 48:16 What's your cat's name?

Shanna H. Swan 48:17 His name is Archie.

Joe Rogan 48:18 Archie.

Shanna H. Swan 48:18 Archie. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 48:20 All right.

Shanna H. Swan 48:20 And Archie comes, patrols the house, and steals our water whenever possible. He comes and drinks from our glasses unless we cover them up. And-

Joe Rogan 48:30 So I think Archie probably likes your water 'cause it doesn't smell like poison to him.

Shanna H. Swan 48:34 He loves our water.

Joe Rogan 48:35 Ah.

Shanna H. Swan 48:36 And, and [clears throat] he has the choice of his own water, which comes out of the tap, and he will 100% prefer our distilled water.

Joe Rogan 48:45 Which makes sense. If you think about a cat's sense of smell, it's gotta be off the charts.

Shanna H. Swan 48:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:49 So he can probably smell, like, this water's got a bunch of junk in it.

Shanna H. Swan 48:53 And when you do the distill- do the process, which Steven does, you know, every other day, [clears throat] and he goes to clean the container that you put the water in, it stinks.

Joe Rogan 49:02 Mm.

Shanna H. Swan 49:03 It really stinks. You would be shocked.

Joe Rogan 49:05 Wow.Well, we have a crazy filter at our house. We have well water-

Shanna H. Swan 49:11 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 49:11 ... and then we have this crazy filter-

Shanna H. Swan 49:13 Sure

Joe Rogan 49:13 ... this giant machine that filters all the water. It tastes delicious. But, um, it's not distilled.

Shanna H. Swan 49:21 Hmm. I'm not, I'm not saying that, you know, uh, um, that you shouldn't distill. That's an alternative. I mean, sorry, you shouldn't filter. That's an alternative. But I'm just saying what we chose to do in our house.

Joe Rogan 49:32 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 49:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:33 And so, um, the distilling, it removes chlorine and all these other issues that are in the water as well.

Shanna H. Swan 49:38 Yep, yep, yep.

Joe Rogan 49:38 Yeah, and fluoride.

Shanna H. Swan 49:39 Everything.

Joe Rogan 49:40 Everything.

Shanna H. Swan 49:40 Everything. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 49:40 Yeah. Fluoride is another one that's-

Shanna H. Swan 49:41 Yeah

Joe Rogan 49:42 ... bananas that we add to water-

Shanna H. Swan 49:44 Right, right

Joe Rogan 49:44 ... under the guise that it helps your teeth. Like-

Shanna H. Swan 49:46 I know

Joe Rogan 49:47 ... shut up, brush your teeth.

Shanna H. Swan 49:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:48 You know? I don't have any cavities. I don't use fluoride.

Shanna H. Swan 49:51 No.

Joe Rogan 49:51 I have fluoride-free toothpaste.

Shanna H. Swan 49:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:53 I don't have fluoride in my water.

Shanna H. Swan 49:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:55 It's dumb. It's not just dumb, it's completely connected to lower IQs. There's a cor- direct correlation between higher fluoride content in water-

Shanna H. Swan 50:05 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 50:05 ... and lower IQs. But there's a giant business involved in selling fluoride to these municipal water supplies.

Shanna H. Swan 50:13 I know.

Joe Rogan 50:14 Which is nuts. More poison.

Shanna H. Swan 50:16 And then there's chlorination.

Joe Rogan 50:16 Like, we are so screwed up. [chuckles]

Shanna H. Swan 50:18 Chlorination.

Joe Rogan 50:19 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 50:19 And I've studied, for years, I studied chlorination byproducts, and they cause miscarriage [laughs] and all this other... [laughs]

Joe Rogan 50:26 So it's gotta be terrible for people that swim a lot in public pools, right?

Shanna H. Swan 50:31 Yeah. I-

Joe Rogan 50:31 'Cause then it's being absorbed by your skin.

Shanna H. Swan 50:35 I don't know how much exposure you get in the relatively short time you're swimming.

Joe Rogan 50:38 Let's find out.

Shanna H. Swan 50:38 You know, I don't know. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:40 Let's find out. Put that into Perplexity. How much of an issue, uh, is chlorine exposure in swimming pools? Hmm. Let's find out. We don't know. We're learning so much.

Shanna H. Swan 50:55 I love that there's a little science. [laughs]

Speaker 50:56 It's like that's not-- That question's gonna get t-tossed around here by Perplexity, 'cause it could go multiple ways with it. Like, is, is there too much chlorine? Like, what are you... Like, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 51:05 Right. Okay, let's say, uh, is chlorine exposure in swimming pools a health concern?

Shanna H. Swan 51:12 Yeah. That's good.

Joe Rogan 51:13 There we go. Let's try that. I bet it is. I mean, it only makes sense. I would like to study someone like Michael Phelps, someone who's spent, like-

Shanna H. Swan 51:23 Spent his life in a pool

Joe Rogan 51:23 ... thousands of hours in a pool.

Shanna H. Swan 51:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:25 Whether or not it's affected his body in any way, whether or not there's, like, measurable chlorine levels in his urine or what have you. Chlorine in properly maintained pools is generally considered safe, but it can cause irritation of eyes, skin, and airways. Well, that can't be good. And heavily frequent exposure, especially indoors, can contribute to respiratory problems in some people. What chlorine does in pools, it kills germs like bacteria and viruses in pools, and is key for preventing infections and diarrhea illnesses from contaminated water. Public health guidance typically recommends free chlorine about one to four parts per million, with pH 7.0 to 7.8. Within this range, disinfectat- disinfection is effective, and side effects are usually mild. Common short-term effects, irritation of eyes, nose, throat, skin. Common when levels are high, uh, when chloramines build up, especially in indoor pools. Chloramines form when chlorine reacts with sweat, urine, and other organic matter, can become airborne, and irritate the respiratory tract, causing coughing, wheezing, or tight chest in some swimmers and staff. Um, long-term, regular heavy exposure in indoors pool, uh, poorly ventilated pools has been linked to increased respiratory symptoms. Some studies suggest increased asthma risk. Um, okay, put this in as a follow-up question. Uh, is exposure to chlorine through the skin-

Shanna H. Swan 52:58 Hmm

Joe Rogan 52:59 ... responsible for any health issues? Let's just, just through the skin, see if there's any studies on that. Chlorine getting into the body through the intact skin from pool water does not appear to cause systemic whole body health problems in otherwise healthy people. Its effects are almost entirely local to the skin itself. What skin exposure u- actually does, chlorine's an irritant that strips the natural skin oils, disrupts the outer barrier, leading to dryness, tightness, itching. So put about, put this in.

Shanna H. Swan 53:36 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 53:36 Um, what exposure does chlorine have to healthy skin flora? Because healthy skin flora, you know, I, I do jujitsu and, um, one of the things that happens with jujitsu is you get a lot of skin diseases. Like, you get-

Shanna H. Swan 53:51 Hmm. Really?

Joe Rogan 53:52 People get ringworm, staph infections.

Shanna H. Swan 53:55 Why?

Joe Rogan 53:55 Well, you're getting scratched up a lot, and you're rolling around on the, the mats, and if the mats are dirty-

Shanna H. Swan 54:00 Hmm

Joe Rogan 54:01 ... um, and if it's just, there's exposure to it, you can have a problem. And then one of the problems that people have is to treat that, they use antibacterial skin soap. So what that does is it strips the skin of all the healthy flora-

Shanna H. Swan 54:14 Right

Joe Rogan 54:14 ... which actually protects you.

Shanna H. Swan 54:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:16 The con- the counter to that, I always bring this up. I have no affiliation with this product, but it's an excellent product. It's called Defense Soap. Defense Soap is, uh, uh, my friend Guy Sacco, he invented it. He's a wrestling coach.

Shanna H. Swan 54:28 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:28 And his, it was a solution using healthy things like, uh, tea tree oil, eucalyptus in this soap that kills the bad bacteria but does nothing to the healthy flora.

Shanna H. Swan 54:42 That's great.

Joe Rogan 54:42 Yes.

Shanna H. Swan 54:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:43 So that's the only soap that I use.

Shanna H. Swan 54:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:45 Um, uh, chlorinated pool water does disturb normal skin flora temporarily, but in healthy people, the microbiome usually recovers within hours to a day or so after swimming. So that's a problem if you swim every day then.

Shanna H. Swan 54:58 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:59 Chlorine is a broad disinfectant, so it kills or suppresses both good and bad bacteria on the skin's surface.

Shanna H. Swan 55:05 That's what you were saying, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:05 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 55:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:05 Reducing overall microbial d-... uh, diversity right after swimming. Experimental and field studies show that even short exposure can cut measured microbiome diversity markedly, often cited around 30 to 40%, with composition shifting away from the usual dominant groups right after a swim. How long disruption lasts after leaving the pool, many of the resident species begin to recolonize from deeper skin lever-- layers, h- uh, hair follicles, and the environment, and community composition tends to drift backward towards baseline over the next twenty-four plus hours. With frequent repeated swimming, daily or high volume training, the skin may be in a more chronically perturbed state with less time for full microbiome recovery in between exposures. Um, I know a lot of people have switched their, their pools over to saltwater pools for this very reason.

Shanna H. Swan 56:01 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 56:01 I think there's a problem with saltwater pools in very high temperature areas-

Shanna H. Swan 56:06 Mm

Joe Rogan 56:06 ... though, where it's not effective enough to stop-

Shanna H. Swan 56:10 Ah

Joe Rogan 56:10 ... mold and-

Shanna H. Swan 56:11 Right, right

Joe Rogan 56:11 ... all of the junk.

Shanna H. Swan 56:12 Right, right, right, right.

Joe Rogan 56:13 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 56:16 Do you wanna see these products I brought?

Joe Rogan 56:17 I would love to see these products you brought.

Shanna H. Swan 56:19 Here you go. [clears throat] These are for cleaning up your kitchen.

Speaker 56:23 Just a note on what you just said.

Joe Rogan 56:23 What's up, Jimmy?

Speaker 56:24 A note on what you just said. A saltwater pool is still technically a chlorine pool.

Joe Rogan 56:28 Oh, still a chlorine pool.

Speaker 56:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:29 It just makes the chlorine on site instead of pouring it in. Oh.

Speaker 56:33 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 56:33 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:33 Salt systems where the pool is ordinary salt, sodium chloride dissolved in the water, usually around two thousand seven hundred, three thousand four hundred parts per million, which is about one-tenth the salinity of the ocean and close to body fluid levels. The water passes through an electrically charged salt cell-

Shanna H. Swan 56:50 Hmm

Joe Rogan 56:50 ... which uses electrolysis to convert some of that salt into active chlorine, uh, mainly hypochlorous acid and sodium hypochlorite that sanitizes the pool. After chlorine does its job, it ends up back as chloride, and the cycle repeats, so you keep generating-

Shanna H. Swan 57:08 Hmm

Joe Rogan 57:08 ... chlorine as long as the system runs and there's enough salt. What's different from your standard chlorine pool, you still have free chlorine in the water at typical pool levels, about one to four, four parts per million. The difference is the source, salt generator versus liquid tablet chlorine, not the sanitizer itself. Most people find salt pools a bit gentler. The water feels softer, and continuous low-level generation can mean fluor- uh, fewer chloramines, the sme- less smell and irritation if the system is sized and maintained correctly. Interesting. Okay, so it's still chlorine. So it still probably disturbs your microbiome, which sucks. This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. April 15th is coming fast. There's been so many tax law changes this year, which means you're going to need an expert who has your back. You're in luck. TurboTax now has in-person locations nationwide. Walk into their tech-enabled stores and meet face-to-face with a TurboTax full-service expert who will get your best outcome. Your expert works to get you every dollar you deserve while updating you as you go about your day. Head to turbotax.com to find a store near you. Um, sealed.

Shanna H. Swan 58:29 [clears throat]

Joe Rogan 58:29 So should I open it?

Shanna H. Swan 58:32 Should be open. Look.

Joe Rogan 58:33 No, it's not. It's sealed. It's tight. [packaging ripping] What do we got in here? A lot of stuff.

Shanna H. Swan 58:39 [laughs] So in the movie, you'll see that I came to the homes of the participants with a big box, about this big.

Joe Rogan 58:47 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 58:47 So this is obviously a very small [laughs] part of that.

Joe Rogan 58:50 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 58:51 Yep. This is just part of your kitchen.

Joe Rogan 58:53 So these are bags that are safe-

Shanna H. Swan 58:55 Yeah

Joe Rogan 58:56 ... oven, freezer, microwave d- it's called Zip Top. So-

Shanna H. Swan 58:59 Yeah, they're silicone. They're made of silicone.

Joe Rogan 59:00 Oh, okay.

Shanna H. Swan 59:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:01 So silicone's okay.

Shanna H. Swan 59:03 Silicone that's-- there is, um, food grade silicone.

Joe Rogan 59:07 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 59:07 [clears throat] And that is, um, s-

Joe Rogan 59:10 Like spatulas.

Shanna H. Swan 59:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:12 Those are okay.

Shanna H. Swan 59:12 And, and they're-- and food grade silicone is free of phthalates and bisphenols, so-

Joe Rogan 59:17 Okay

Shanna H. Swan 59:18 ... you can use that.

Joe Rogan 59:18 Oh, this is a lot thicker. This is like, uh-

Shanna H. Swan 59:20 Yeah, a lot thicker. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:23 Yeah. And so this is reusable?

Shanna H. Swan 59:24 Just store-

Joe Rogan 59:25 Is that the idea?

Shanna H. Swan 59:25 Yeah, absolutely. And you, you just store your, put your food in the fridge in that instead of in a-

Joe Rogan 59:30 So you can buy these things through-

Shanna H. Swan 59:32 Oh, yeah

Joe Rogan 59:32 ... this company, Zip Top? Is the, uh, do they make them specifically for that reason?

Shanna H. Swan 59:37 Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. There's one of many companies that makes [laughs] you know-

Joe Rogan 59:41 S- so this is essentially like a Ziploc bag-

Shanna H. Swan 59:43 Exactly

Joe Rogan 59:44 ... but it's way thicker.

Shanna H. Swan 59:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:47 Kinda cool. And so they make these larger as well, so you can-

Shanna H. Swan 59:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:51 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 59:51 There are a lot of good alternatives for food storage. You know, glass, of course, is really good.

Joe Rogan 59:57 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 59:58 Um, and ceramic is really good.

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 Well, this seems so much better too because it's not creating as much plastic waste since it's reusable.

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:05 Right, right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 Now, do you just run this through a dishwasher?

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:08 Now, what about dishwashing solvents and detergents-

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:11 Oh

Joe Rogan 1:00:11 ... and stuff like that?

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:12 [sighs]

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 Ugh.

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:13 Ugh. Yeah, I would have-

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 There's always problems.

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:15 Yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 World's filled with problems, Jamie.

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:17 [laughs] The pods are probably not great.

Joe Rogan 1:00:20 Oh, right. Of course, right?

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:23 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:24 Damn pods.

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:25 Pods, tea bags, coffee pods, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:27 Remember when kids were eating Tide Pods? It's like nature's trying to get rid of some of the dummies.

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:34 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:00:36 Um, okay. So this company-

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:38 I think there's two of those in there.

Joe Rogan 1:00:39 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:39 These are just little examples, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 Let's give this company a shout-out. It's called, uh, Zip Top, and, uh, I guess they make them all sizes.

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:49 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:49 This is like sandwich size.

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 This is, I guess, a snack size. And they make them larger too, of course.

Shanna H. Swan 1:00:54 Yeah, and they seal well, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:00:56 [coughs] Um, that's another question that I had about sous vide. Um, there's a lot of, uh, people that cook their food in, uh, these sous vide machines.

Shanna H. Swan 1:01:06 A lot? Really?

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 It's very common.Yeah

Shanna H. Swan 1:01:09 [chuckles] I thought it was kinda high, you know, kind of-

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 In restaurants and stuff?

Shanna H. Swan 1:01:14 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:14 Well, I mean, I know there's consumer versions of it-

Shanna H. Swan 1:01:17 Mm. Mm

Joe Rogan 1:01:17 ... that, uh, I know a lot of my friends use it.

Shanna H. Swan 1:01:19 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:01:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 They, they use it for wild game in particular-

Shanna H. Swan 1:01:23 Oh. Mm

Joe Rogan 1:01:23 ... because you can slow cook.

Shanna H. Swan 1:01:25 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:25 So one of the things about wild game, it has a very low fat content.

Shanna H. Swan 1:01:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 And a lot of people find that it, it, uh, it's more tender-

Shanna H. Swan 1:01:32 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 ... if you slowly cook. So let's say if you... Like medium rare is like, what is medium rare? Like 135 degrees, I think. So you-- what you would do is you would take this, uh, piece of meat, and you would seal it up in a vacuum-sealed container, and you'd dunk it in this sous vide machine, and it keeps the water at 135 degrees. You can cook it for several hours at 135, and then you sear the outside of it.

Shanna H. Swan 1:01:59 Nice. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 And so a lot of people like that. And it, it's really good for breaking down some of the harder stuff-

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:06 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 ... like, you know, the fascia and the-

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:08 Yeah. Gristle and, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:10 And so is that stuff leaking chemicals into your food? It has to be, right?

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:14 Why?

Joe Rogan 1:02:15 Well, because it's in plastic. You're getting these vacuum-sealed plastic bags-

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:19 Oh

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 ... that the food goes in.

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:21 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 And you, have you seen how sous vide works?

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:22 But you, but don't you have to put it in plastic?

Joe Rogan 1:02:24 Yes. Have you seen how these sous vide things work?

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:26 No, then it's bad.

Joe Rogan 1:02:27 So-

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:27 Then it s- sounds just as bad-

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 That's what I'm saying

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:28 ... as microwaving in plastic. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:02:30 Right. So-

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:30 Right? [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 ... what you do with sous vide is you season the food.

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 And a lot of times, uh, you'll add like olive oil and things like that-

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:38 But couldn't-

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 ... to the outside of it.

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:39 You couldn't make it out of silicone?

Joe Rogan 1:02:41 I w- I would imagine you could, right? I don't know. Let's find that out. Has anybody made, uh, silicone-based sous vide bags? And do these sous vide bags leach chemicals?

Speaker 1:02:54 I just saw a discussion on Reddit about this-

Shanna H. Swan 1:02:56 [chuckles]

Speaker 1:02:56 ... but they didn't really have an answer. Like they're asking, uh, the temperatures might not be high enough. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:03:02 Yeah. What are the temperatures that w- uh, you need that start these chemicals leaching into, uh-

Shanna H. Swan 1:03:10 Oof

Joe Rogan 1:03:10 ... from the plastics into your water? Because a lot of times-

Shanna H. Swan 1:03:13 Why-

Joe Rogan 1:03:13 ... they say don't leave a bo- a bottle of water in your car.

Shanna H. Swan 1:03:16 That's right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 Because your car can get really hot.

Shanna H. Swan 1:03:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:18 So uh, how hot's your car get? It doesn't get that hot. It doesn't get like cooking hot. So it's like what is-

Speaker 1:03:26 Um, this-

Shanna H. Swan 1:03:26 But if the sous vide bags don't have plasticizers in them-

Speaker 1:03:29 Oh, I'm gonna go to Perplexity and put-

Shanna H. Swan 1:03:30 ... like if they're made of silicone-

Joe Rogan 1:03:32 Right

Shanna H. Swan 1:03:32 ... you know, food-based, uh, food... What is it? Food-grade silicone.

Speaker 1:03:36 Is this from Reddit? Yeah, this is similar.

Joe Rogan 1:03:37 Yeah.

Speaker 1:03:37 This is like a sous vide subreddit.

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 So it says, "We use vacuum-sealed bags. We're really going through them right now, even on our early sous vide. I tried silicone reusable, and I wasn't happy. I don't really recall why."

Shanna H. Swan 1:03:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 "I think it was hard to get stuff in without a mess." Okay, that doesn't make any sense. Uh, "Just deal with the mess. We made a switch to vacuum bags. I love it, but oof, we use a lot of bags." Okay. Put this into Perplexity, please.

Speaker 1:04:01 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:04:01 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:04:01 Um, do sous vide bags leach endocrine-disrupting chemicals into your food when you cook with them? Let's try that. Sweet. We're learning things.

Shanna H. Swan 1:04:13 Yeah.

Speaker 1:04:14 Doesn't it have, does it have to be vacuum-sealed probably?-

Joe Rogan 1:04:16 Yes

Speaker 1:04:16 ... right? 'Cause you don't want water leaking in there.

Joe Rogan 1:04:18 Yeah. You don't want water leaking in. The one-- I have a machine, like, and I use this vacuum-sealed machine. Like, so if I get wild game, and then I cut it up into pieces, and then I, uh, I seal it in these vacuum-sealed bags to freeze it. Um, silicone-based sous vide bags are generally considered safe for food use and do not significantly leach... Significantly is a weird word.

Shanna H. Swan 1:04:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 Leach harmful chemicals under typical cooking conditions. High-quality food-grade silicone is inert-

Shanna H. Swan 1:04:46 Safe

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 ... BPA-free. Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:04:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:48 Um, this is silicone, though. Food-grade silicone shows minimal ch- chemical migration, such as si- silox- siloxanes, uh, especially compared to plastics that release microplastics like BPA. Um, this is a silicone, though. Um, when you... What is it? What was the question that you asked? How'd you phrase it?

Shanna H. Swan 1:05:12 Well, you were asking about sous vide bags.

Joe Rogan 1:05:12 Okay, you w- you write silicone-based sous vide bags.

Speaker 1:05:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:15 Just let's... Not silicone-based, just like plastic sous vide bags.

Shanna H. Swan 1:05:21 Well, you know they're gonna leach stuff.

Speaker 1:05:22 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:05:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 Let's find out.

Shanna H. Swan 1:05:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 Regular plastic sous vide bags. Let's see what it says.

Speaker 1:05:31 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:05:32 Right. But I wanna make sure that it's vacuum-sealed sous vide bags.

Speaker 1:05:38 It does. I'm a- it should know that we're talking about sous vide bags here.

Joe Rogan 1:05:41 Regular plastic bags can be reasonably, I don't like that word-

Shanna H. Swan 1:05:45 [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:05:46 ... safe for sous vide if you use the right kind, food-grade, BPA and phthalate-free-

Shanna H. Swan 1:05:51 Yay

Joe Rogan 1:05:51 ... and rated for hot food.

Shanna H. Swan 1:05:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:53 But all plastics can leak some chemicals, and the data specific to sous vide is still limited.

Shanna H. Swan 1:05:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 What regular bags are safe? Look for bags made with, uh, polyethylene and/or polypropylene that are labeled food-grade and microwave-safe. Is there a plastic that's microwave-safe, though? Is that real? Are these are con-

Shanna H. Swan 1:06:13 These, these-

Joe Rogan 1:06:13 Yeah. These are-

Shanna H. Swan 1:06:14 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sure

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 ... considered safe with food up to around 190 to 195, uh, Fahrenheit. Most brands' zipper bags, Ziploc, Gla- Glad, are polyethylene, BPA, and dioxin-free and are commonly used for sous vide at typical temperatures below 176. Uh, purpose-made vacuum sealer or boil-in sous vide pouches, that's what I use, are specifically certified as food-grade for cooking and are the safest plastic option if you want disposable. So it seems like it's reasonably safe to do that.

Shanna H. Swan 1:06:45 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 A review by Utah's Department of Health nota- notice, [clears throat] excuse me, notes that there's a lack of studies directly measuring chemical leaching from sous vide bags but recommends using FDA-compliant BPA and phthalate-free plastics, which are not known for estrogen a- estrogenic activity and are considered safe for food contact. Okay. Mm.It says trout. See it says there?

Shanna H. Swan 1:07:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 One trout study found detectable BPA in fish cooked. But the problem is food, like here's the problem. Freshwater lakes, if you're catching a trout in a freshwater lake, freshwater lakes have horrible levels of these chemicals in them, and most people do not recommend eating food from freshwater lakes, which is so crazy. You think, "Oh, I'm gonna go catch a fish from a lake. This is gonna be really healthy."

Shanna H. Swan 1:07:42 Some healthy, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:42 "It's right from nature." Uh-uh. No, we've ruined lakes. Yeah. What it... Like what is the issue? Put this in. What is the issue with eating fish from freshwater lakes in America? What are the health issues-

Shanna H. Swan 1:07:57 Health issues, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:07:58 ... eating fish from freshwater lakes in America? We've looked this up before. It's kind of stunning how much chemicals you get from a single fish that you would catch. So if you catch a trout from, you know, a regular lake. You go to a lake, it looks clean. I can see the bottom. Everything's fine. No, it's bad for you. In fact, I know a guy who, uh, is friends with someone who does a lot of fishing tournaments, so he goes to these fishing tournaments, catches a lot of fish. He eats a lot of fish, obviously. And he got horribly, horribly sick because of heavy metal poisoning, and-

Shanna H. Swan 1:08:31 Isn't it terrible?

Joe Rogan 1:08:33 Crazy. You think you're eating fresh fish that you've caught yourself. It's gotta be good, right?

Shanna H. Swan 1:08:39 And it's gotta be bad for the fish.

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 No. Eating US freshwater fish can expose you to chemical contaminants like mercury and PFAS, um, and if eaten undercooked or raw, to parasites and some bacteria. Most people can still eat freshwater fish safely if they follow local advisories and avoid high-risk groups, pregnant people, young children, eating too much.

Shanna H. Swan 1:09:00 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:00 Main chemical risks, mercury, um, methylmercury. Nearly all wild fish contain some mercury, but levels of many US freshwater fish can be high enough to harm a fetus or a young child's developing brain and nervous system if eaten often. That's crazy. PFAS, forever chemicals. Many US freshwater fish have measurable PFAS and, in some studies, show widespread PFAS plus mercury in fish tissue at levels that pose health risks for frequent consumers. PFAS exposure has been linked to changes in liver and kidney function, cholesterol, immune response, pregnancy complications, increased risk of certain cancers.

Shanna H. Swan 1:09:38 I don't know why they haven't mentioned autoimmune, uh, immune resp- oh, they do say immune, immune response, yes. This-

Joe Rogan 1:09:45 Yeah, immune response. Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:09:47 Yeah, this guy in, in Denmark studied people on the Faroe Islands, which they all eat fish. They catch them, you know, the Faroe Islands-

Joe Rogan 1:09:55 Mm-hmm

Shanna H. Swan 1:09:55 ... they catch them there. And so he looked at the levels of PFAS, and then he looked at their, um, antibody response to vaccination.

Joe Rogan 1:10:05 Oh.

Shanna H. Swan 1:10:06 Down.

Joe Rogan 1:10:06 Down.

Shanna H. Swan 1:10:06 And, and so think of what that means in, you know, like this ti- time of COVID or whatever.

Joe Rogan 1:10:11 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 1:10:12 I wanna do an intervention where we take kids who are getting PFAS-free school uniforms. Remember I told you PFAS was in school uniforms?

Joe Rogan 1:10:23 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 1:10:23 And then when they come in at age six for their first, you know, grade, they will have just had their booster, so then we could get their blood and see if the booster, you know, antibody levels were lower in the kids that had the PFAS uniforms versus the clean uniform.

Joe Rogan 1:10:42 Booster for which vaccines?

Shanna H. Swan 1:10:44 Um, me- mumps, pertussis, um, the MM- MMP I think it's called.

Joe Rogan 1:10:50 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 1:10:51 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:52 And so it's lower, it's a lower response if your body's been exposed-

Shanna H. Swan 1:10:57 You're less protected, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:10:57 ... to these chemicals.

Shanna H. Swan 1:10:58 The, the, what-

Joe Rogan 1:10:59 So you would imagine even if you're not, like you just lower response period-

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:03 Right

Joe Rogan 1:11:03 ... to all immune function based on this.

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:05 Right. Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:07 What is these, these things?

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:08 Loofah mitts.

Joe Rogan 1:11:09 Oh, the loofah mitts.

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:09 So you can use them to, to scrub the, your sink and-

Joe Rogan 1:11:12 Yeah

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:12 ... or your face.

Joe Rogan 1:11:12 I use them in the shower.

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:14 Yeah, or in the shower. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:11:15 But you should use those for your food too.

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:16 But, but the, the, the sponges that you u- most people use have a lot of chemicals in them.

Joe Rogan 1:11:20 Of course. Makes sense.

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:22 So these are better.

Joe Rogan 1:11:23 Yeah, they're-

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:23 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:11:24 ... plastic sponges.

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:11:25 And you get them in hot water, and you're scrubbing things, and some of the stuff probably gets in your plates and your food and your, your cooking ware.

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:32 Yeah, so that's good.

Joe Rogan 1:11:34 All right. What else we got here? Beeswrap.

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:38 That's really nice stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:11:40 What is this stuff?

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:41 It, uh, actually, you can treat a l... That, this is some kind of paper that's been treated with beeswax-

Joe Rogan 1:11:47 Oh

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:47 ... so nothing dirty there. And take it out. You'll see how nice it is.

Joe Rogan 1:11:51 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:51 [clears throat] I love this stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:11:56 Ooh.

Shanna H. Swan 1:11:56 I have a lot of it. 'Cause it seals on-

Joe Rogan 1:11:59 Ooh, so you feel the wax.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:00 That's the wax.

Joe Rogan 1:12:01 Wax you feel.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:02 Yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:12:02 Sandwiches on there. Oh, okay, so you use that to wrap your, your food with.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:06 So-

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:06 And it, and it seals on itself, and you just rinse it out afterwards.

Joe Rogan 1:12:10 Oh, nice.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:11 So you don't have to use Saran Wrap and, you know, all these c-

Joe Rogan 1:12:14 It does seal on itself.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:15 Isn't that nice? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:16 It seems like the form fits around things-

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:18 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:12:18 ... like plates and stuff.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:19 It for... You can put it on an egg or a tomato or anything you want.

Joe Rogan 1:12:21 Well, with my friend Philip, I guarantee he eats a lot of sushi. He runs a sushi place, and if you ever go to a sushi place, all the fish is wrapped in plastic.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:29 They're always wrapped in plastic.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:31 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:32 And then they cut it open, and so-

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:33 Right

Joe Rogan 1:12:33 ... there's exposure to all this stuff.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:12:35 You, you should use this stuff.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:37 Probably has the same level of sealing as plastic does.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:40 Might be more expensive though. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:42 What's your health worth?

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:12:44 But it's also reusable, which plastic isn't.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:46 Oh, absolutely. Just, just wash it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:48 That's the thing.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:48 It's like it's probably economical in the long run-

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:51 Right

Joe Rogan 1:12:51 ... because plastic wrap you don't reuse-

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:54 Right

Joe Rogan 1:12:54 ... unless you're a psycho.

Shanna H. Swan 1:12:55 And it gets all over the [laughs] the world and everywhere. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:12:58 Right. Everywhere. I'm sure you've seen the, uh, Pacific Garbage Patch-

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:03 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:13:04 ... which is crazy, right? Um, these are bags, and these bags are called Wowe, W-O-W-E.

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:13 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:13:14 Right? And what is this?

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:15 It's another food storage, you know.Choice, option

Joe Rogan 1:13:19 It's paper. Or no, no, it's, um, cloth

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:22 Cloth, but clean cloth, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:13:25 And so you use this just-

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:26 Like for bread-

Joe Rogan 1:13:26 ...slid it up

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:26 ...it's really good bread-

Joe Rogan 1:13:28 Oh, okay

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:28 ...cookies, you know, stuff like that

Joe Rogan 1:13:30 Okay

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:30 Yeah, we use those, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:13:32 And so is this all, all these different products listed on your website so people can-

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:39 They're listed on-

Joe Rogan 1:13:40 ...buy solutions

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:40 ...the Million Marker. There's a c- a ca- a can there, a card there to scan the QR code, and you can go to that

Joe Rogan 1:13:47 And, um, but it would be nice if it was like a one s- so if you scan the QR code, is there a one-stop shop? Like people-

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:53 Yes

Joe Rogan 1:13:53 ...listening to this right now, can we send them to a website that can-

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:13:57 ...what, what website would that be?

Shanna H. Swan 1:13:58 I don't, I can't mem- Look at the card. S- [clears throat]

Joe Rogan 1:14:03 This one? Tips for deca- detox journey. So this is, uh, the QR, so if I scan-

Shanna H. Swan 1:14:09 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:14:09 ...this right now, it'll tell, take me there?

Shanna H. Swan 1:14:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:11 Where's my phone?

Shanna H. Swan 1:14:12 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:14:14 This world that we live in, we're not ready. [sighs] Okay, it says the, the website is millionmarker.com. Chemical glossary. So this is the chemical glossary that's on this card, but it doesn't, I don't know-

Shanna H. Swan 1:14:35 Not the products, right?

Joe Rogan 1:14:36 It doesn't say the products. It says partners. Is that-

Shanna H. Swan 1:14:40 So there's products on that other website I told you, um, Unplastic Your Life

Joe Rogan 1:14:45 Unplasticyourlife.com

Shanna H. Swan 1:14:47 Yeah. [clears throat]

Joe Rogan 1:14:47 So that's a place where people can go and see these products? There it is.

Shanna H. Swan 1:14:50 And then, so there's three steps. Unplasticyourlife.com, action hub, protect yourself, and then it can tell you how to protect yourself against various things in different rooms. I have it by rooms, I think.

Joe Rogan 1:15:02 What is this one, Jamie? This one says-

Speaker 1:15:04 This is it. This is the same website. I just already went to the action hub-

Shanna H. Swan 1:15:07 Yeah

Speaker 1:15:07 ...and then protect yourself part.

Joe Rogan 1:15:07 Oh, so when you go to unplasticyourlife.com-

Speaker 1:15:10 It goes to your-

Joe Rogan 1:15:10 ...it takes you to OSP Society-

Shanna H. Swan 1:15:13 And then go to the action hub

Joe Rogan 1:15:13 ...OPS Society.

Shanna H. Swan 1:15:14 Go to the action hub.

Speaker 1:15:14 Yeah, it redirects to this website.

Joe Rogan 1:15:15 Got it. And then go to the action hub, protect your family, and then are the products listed down there? Okay, yeah, there it is. Okay. Single u- Okay. Uh, non-plastic bags, non, uh, steel cookware. Got it. Uh, replace the plastic cutting boards with wood. So I think some people use titanium, which is fine too, right?

Shanna H. Swan 1:15:40 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:15:40 And then what above that? What's above that? Um, steel single-use drinking water containers. Never use plastics to store your food in. Never heat plastics. Holy. Save your skin by selecting personal care products with-

Shanna H. Swan 1:15:55 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:15:55 ...natural ingredients, such in glass or tin packaging. Oh boy. So disturbing.

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:03 Washing your clothes.

Joe Rogan 1:16:05 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:06 Just-

Joe Rogan 1:16:06 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:07 [clears throat]

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:08 By the way, we didn't talk about smell.

Joe Rogan 1:16:10 Smell.

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:11 But everything that's fragranced has phthalates.

Joe Rogan 1:16:14 Of course.

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:15 And, you know, like you think you're doing good if you hang that little pine tree in your car.

Joe Rogan 1:16:22 Not good?

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:23 Not good. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:16:25 Damn.

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:25 And, and you plug in things in the wall that, supposed to clean up your air and, you know, refresh your air and so on. Not good.

Joe Rogan 1:16:33 There's ones that are in cars now, like certain cars. I think Mercedes has one where you refill it, and you can... It actually will spray air freshener through the vents.

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:46 Oof. I don't like that.

Joe Rogan 1:16:46 Does a Mercedes do that?

Speaker 1:16:47 I'm not sure.

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:48 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:16:48 I think it's Mercedes, which makes sense. You know-

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:50 [clears throat]

Joe Rogan 1:16:51 ...luxury. I wanna smell like lavender as I'm driving.

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:16:55 Ah, look at me in my luxurious car-

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:57 You know what-

Joe Rogan 1:16:57 ...smelling lavender-

Shanna H. Swan 1:16:58 If something-

Joe Rogan 1:16:58 ...dying of chemical exposure

Shanna H. Swan 1:17:00 ...we asked women on the, on this, our sur- you know, our study. We said, um, "What do you use?" And then we said, "Was it fragranced?"

Joe Rogan 1:17:07 Mm.

Shanna H. Swan 1:17:08 And anything where they said that was fragranced, their body burden of phthalates was higher.

Joe Rogan 1:17:13 Of course. What about natural deodorants?

Shanna H. Swan 1:17:17 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:17:18 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:17:19 We'd have to look it up. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:20 Because I use natural deodorant to try to avoid a lot of that stuff.

Shanna H. Swan 1:17:23 Mm.

Speaker 1:17:24 On the product for it on their website, it says it's a miscellaneous dangerous good, I think.

Joe Rogan 1:17:29 What?

Speaker 1:17:29 I don't know what that is.

Joe Rogan 1:17:30 What? It says miscellaneous dangerous goods.

Speaker 1:17:33 Maybe it's when they ship it or something.

Shanna H. Swan 1:17:34 What, what are you looking at?

Joe Rogan 1:17:35 Other dangerous subs- The interior of the vehicle can be fragranced to su- it says it right there.

Shanna H. Swan 1:17:39 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:17:39 This is, uh, under Mercedes, under their smell.

Shanna H. Swan 1:17:41 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:17:42 Aroma system, Pacific mood. Ooh, I want a Pacific mood.

Shanna H. Swan 1:17:46 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:17:47 I'm living on the coast. I'm fabulous.

Shanna H. Swan 1:17:49 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:17:49 And it says, "Miscellaneous dangerous goods, other dangerous substances." That's crazy that it's labeled that way. "The interior of the vehicle can be fragranced to suit your own individual preference with the air balance package. Uh, flacon Pacific mood, lemon and orange top notes accompanied by a blend of spices." Ah. But meanwhile, it's probably not good for you. So what is in there? They're engineered specifically... Does it say what... They're also-

Speaker 1:18:22 No

Joe Rogan 1:18:22 ...subject to rigorous testing, which means each part comes fully certified. In the end, you can be sure that your vehicle will perform up to its potential-

Speaker 1:18:29 I was gonna-

Joe Rogan 1:18:29 ...mile after mile

Speaker 1:18:30 ...see what this word meant. I don't know if you wanna try this.

Joe Rogan 1:18:32 Whoa. [laughs] Can you say that word, doctor?

Shanna H. Swan 1:18:36 Oh, no. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:18:37 Gefahrguttenzeichen.

Shanna H. Swan 1:18:41 Gefahrgutzeichen. Yeah.

Speaker 1:18:42 I'm guessing that means miscellaneous dangerous goods, but-

Joe Rogan 1:18:44 But why, I mean, why the-

Speaker 1:18:45 Why not? [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:18:46 Other dangerous... They're calling it dangerous?

Shanna H. Swan 1:18:49 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:18:49 That sounds really crazy.

Shanna H. Swan 1:18:51 Miscellaneous dangerous goods. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:18:52 Look at this, like hazard warning.

Speaker 1:18:54 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:18:54 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:18:55 This is crazy. Like why, but why would they say that-

Shanna H. Swan 1:18:57 Put it on their website, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:18:58 ...and then you're spraying it, and you're breathing it in.

Speaker 1:19:01 It could be very well like one of those California rules where they say like, "This building has got dangerous chemicals that could cause cancer in people," and it like has to be on every single-

Shanna H. Swan 1:19:08 Oh, there's a term.

Joe Rogan 1:19:09 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:19:09 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:19:10 Yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 1:19:10 But it's just weird that that's-

Speaker 1:19:11 Sure

Joe Rogan 1:19:11 ...in the actual stuff that you-

Shanna H. Swan 1:19:13 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:19:13 ...breathe in and smell.

Speaker 1:19:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:19:15 You know, I've, I've heard another thing that's really bad for you is incense

Shanna H. Swan 1:19:20 Probably varies with the, you know, what's in it. I d- I, I wouldn't blanket all incense. I don't... I haven't studied that, so yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:28 Well, let's put that into Perplexity.

Shanna H. Swan 1:19:30 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:19:30 What are the d- 'cause I know candles are bad for you.

Shanna H. Swan 1:19:34 Some.

Joe Rogan 1:19:34 Scented candles in particular.

Shanna H. Swan 1:19:35 S- scented.

Joe Rogan 1:19:35 Right?

Shanna H. Swan 1:19:36 Yes. Yes. There's the aroma again. See-

Joe Rogan 1:19:38 Yeah

Shanna H. Swan 1:19:38 ... see, one of the things that phthalates do is they cause something to hold scent.

Joe Rogan 1:19:44 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 1:19:44 Retain scent. So they're put into perfume, and they're put into makeup, and they're put into, you know, the things you put on your wall. And, and so, you know, you, you want something to smell for a long time, you're gonna use phthalates.

Joe Rogan 1:19:57 It says, "Burning incense products, smoke and chemicals that can irritate your lungs, worsen asthma and allergies, and with heavy long-term use in poorly ventilated spaces may increase risk-"

Shanna H. Swan 1:20:08 [laughs] Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 1:20:08 "... for heart disease and some cancers." You know, you think incense, you go over to someone's house, they do yoga, they eat vegan, they burn incense, they must be healthy.

Shanna H. Swan 1:20:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:20:21 Um, long-term health risks. Repeated long-term exposure, daily for years, been associated in studies with increased risk of bronchitis, reduced lung function in children, and chronic respiratory symptoms in workers heavily exposed to temple incense. God. Epidemiological studies, mostly in Asian populations with heavy daily use, have linked long-term incense exposure to higher rates of cardiovascular problems, hypertension, coronary artery disease, stroke, chronic limb... What's that word?

Shanna H. Swan 1:20:53 Ischemia.

Joe Rogan 1:20:54 Ischemia. What's that mean?

Shanna H. Swan 1:20:56 Um.

Joe Rogan 1:20:56 What does ischemia mean?

Shanna H. Swan 1:20:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:58 It can't be good. Sounds terrible. What is ischemia?

Speaker 1:21:03 About to find out.

Joe Rogan 1:21:04 What is ischemia? Huh. Uh, lack of blood flow to part of a body, usually because of an artery is narrowed or blocked. Severe or prolonged, the affected tissue could be damaged or die. Oh, great.

Shanna H. Swan 1:21:22 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:21:23 Oh, wonderful. So you, you, you think about incense, you think, like, healthy, natural people. Oh, they burn incense. It sounds lovely. It sounds like they're spiritual. Ah, incense. I used to love incense. I used to use it all the time. Thought it was cool. Made you, like, you know, be more peaceful. Incense, bad for you. Everything's bad for you. You know what's bad for you? These straws, if you trip with them. You know, a lot of people have died. These are metal straws.

Shanna H. Swan 1:21:54 Really?

Joe Rogan 1:21:54 They've died 'cause they're on their phone, and they're not paying attention. They stub their toe and fall, and this thing goes through their eyeball, and they die.

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:01 Oh, shoof.

Joe Rogan 1:22:01 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:02 Okay. [laughs] I won't recommend that. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:22:05 But also, you could die just falling. I mean, if you're falling and you're holding a steel straw, throw it to the side. That's my advice.

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:13 So if you wanna do this little experiment of one that we're talking about-

Joe Rogan 1:22:18 Okay

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:18 ... N of one, unless Jamie wants to do it, too.

Joe Rogan 1:22:20 Jamie's in. Look at him.

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:22 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:22:22 He's down.

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:23 [laughs] Um, then-

Joe Rogan 1:22:26 [laughs]

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:27 ... Jenna or her, somebody on her team, if you had an hour-

Joe Rogan 1:22:30 Mm-hmm

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:30 ... half an hour, I don't know how long it takes, call you, say, ask you, "What did you use? What did you use? What did you use for this, this, this?"

Joe Rogan 1:22:37 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:38 "This," right? And then they'll recommend what to change.

Joe Rogan 1:22:42 Right. I recently underwent this plasmapheresis-

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:46 I know, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:22:46 ... thing. Yeah. And, uh, that's supposed to remove a lot of that stuff from your blood, correct? So my, my... I'll tell you what, the next day, um, I was very tired that day.

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:57 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:22:57 Like exhausted that day.

Shanna H. Swan 1:22:58 Mm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:58 But the next day afterwards-

Shanna H. Swan 1:23:00 Pretty severe, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:23:00 ... I felt, like, lighter. I felt like-

Shanna H. Swan 1:23:02 Oh

Joe Rogan 1:23:02 ... "Whoa, this is crazy."

Shanna H. Swan 1:23:03 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:23:03 I felt like I had more energy. Like it was-

Shanna H. Swan 1:23:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:23:05 ... it was, like, kinda late at night, and I was like, "I'm not tired at all. This is weird." Like I felt different, you know? And-

Shanna H. Swan 1:23:11 So that would be great. Are you gonna do it again?

Joe Rogan 1:23:14 Uh, no, I just did it. I mean, I would-

Shanna H. Swan 1:23:16 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:23:16 ... do it again, but I-

Shanna H. Swan 1:23:17 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:23:17 ... just did it a few days ago.

Shanna H. Swan 1:23:18 Yeah. I was just wondering, you know, if you measured chemicals in your urine before you did that-

Joe Rogan 1:23:24 I should have done that

Shanna H. Swan 1:23:25 ... and then after that, it'd be really interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:23:26 I don't have any pee laying around from before.

Shanna H. Swan 1:23:28 No.

Joe Rogan 1:23:28 I don't waste. [laughs]

Shanna H. Swan 1:23:30 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:23:31 But I could do it now, and maybe I have very low levels, and we could attribute that to the... 'Cause I, I haven't done the best job. Well, like I said, I did get rid of my plastic coffee machine at home. Uh, I did that about three or four weeks ago. One of the things that it's done is it's made my morning coffee a lot harder to get. Uh, it's more of, like, a ritual now 'cause I, I use a w- a steel water boiler thing that heats it up to 200 degrees, and then I have a steel French press, and I grind the beans in a steel thing. It's ah, right? And then I pour the beans in the French press, and it's takes 15 minutes rather than 30 seconds.

Shanna H. Swan 1:24:15 And how does it taste?

Joe Rogan 1:24:15 It tastes way better. Well, I'm a big coffee drinker.

Shanna H. Swan 1:24:18 Me too. Me too.

Joe Rogan 1:24:18 I love coffee, but I like it black.

Shanna H. Swan 1:24:20 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:24:20 Like I love the flavor of coffee.

Shanna H. Swan 1:24:21 Yeah, me too. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:24:22 I really do.

Shanna H. Swan 1:24:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:24:23 Um, and so it just tastes better. It tastes b- uh, French press, I think, is the best way to drink coffee anyway.

Shanna H. Swan 1:24:29 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:24:29 And so I kinda decided, like, why am I... I've, I'm avoiding all these microplastics. I don't drink out of plastic c- or paper cups. I do all these different things. Why am I still using a plastic coffee machine? I look at that thing every morning, and I was like, "Yeah, but it's gonna get me coffee right now," so beh, I press the button to get my coffee right now.

Shanna H. Swan 1:24:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:24:46 Then I was like, "That's stupid."

Shanna H. Swan 1:24:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:24:47 So now I just, I only use-

Shanna H. Swan 1:24:49 Cool

Joe Rogan 1:24:49 ... something like this.

Shanna H. Swan 1:24:50 Cool.

Joe Rogan 1:24:51 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:24:52 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:24:52 So I'd be interested to see if maybe I have low levels, uh, because I certainly feel like my body, um, it felt refreshed.

Shanna H. Swan 1:25:01 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:25:01 Like I had less inflammation, you know?

Shanna H. Swan 1:25:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:25:03 But that's, like, a two-hour procedure. It's a pain in the butt.

Shanna H. Swan 1:25:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:07 You know, you gotta sit there for two hours. You look like a psycho. You have, like-

Shanna H. Swan 1:25:11 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:25:12 I should have taken a photo of what I looked like while I was doing it 'cause I was laying there, and I had, like, cords in this arm and cords in that arm, so I had blood coming out of that arm and going back out of that arm. It's really kinda nutty.

Shanna H. Swan 1:25:26 How expensive?

Joe Rogan 1:25:28 I don't know

Shanna H. Swan 1:25:28 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:25:29 Yeah. I don't know. Um, but I'm sure it's not cheap.

Shanna H. Swan 1:25:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:33 But the, the benefits of it, in terms of, like, the people that I know that have done it said it's a game changer in terms of your recovery, marked recovery levels, uh, much better sleep. Like if you're wearing an Oura Ring or a Whoop Strap or something along those lines, you get much better recovery, and I think that's probably the case with me. I feel pretty good, but I do a lot of stuff, you know?

Shanna H. Swan 1:25:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:56 I do a lot of things to maximize my health, so it's really kind of difficult to know, like, what's doing what.

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:00 Which, what's doing what. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:01 I just know all in all-

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:02 You know, well, we always say, you know, in my field, you know, do one thing at a time, [laughs] right?

Joe Rogan 1:26:07 Right. Of course.

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:07 If you're doing science.

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:09 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:09 I'm not, I'm not doing science.

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:11 I'm doing chaos.

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:12 Yeah. [laughs] Well, you're doing, you know, your experiment one, so-

Joe Rogan 1:26:17 Yeah

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:17 ... yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:18 But it works. All of it together is definitely working. My body's pretty good. Um-

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:23 So you know, you were mentioning how it's gonna be very hard to get these things regulated, and I just wanted to point out, we probably talked about this last time, but you know, w-where do these chemicals come from, these plasticizers? And y-y-you probably know they're i-made from fossil fuel byproducts, yes?

Joe Rogan 1:26:44 Yeah. Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:45 So y-y-d- the forces [coughs] against r-eliminating them are, are not only the manufacturers of the plastic, but it's also the fossil fuel industry.

Joe Rogan 1:26:56 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:57 So that makes it extremely difficult.

Joe Rogan 1:26:59 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:26:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:27:00 Yeah. And it's probably one of the primary factors in why this isn't discussed, because it would reduce fossil fuel consumption, which would affect oil markets, which would affect the economy, and ah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:27:12 It's big. It's big.

Joe Rogan 1:27:14 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:27:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:27:15 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:27:15 Yeah. But I mean, the rate at which plastic production is increasing is astounding, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:27:21 Yes.

Shanna H. Swan 1:27:21 It, yeah, and s- w- no, no end in sight, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:27:24 Well, I don't think you're gonna get the government to act about this stuff. I think this has to be done on an individual level where people are aware of it and take steps to protect themselves and their family from these issues. That's my cynical view of how this is going to be played out, and I'm h-really hoping... I know for a fact a lot of people listened to our last conversation and made some lifestyle changes. I'm really hoping that now, with this follow-up visit, more and more people will be aware of it.

Shanna H. Swan 1:27:54 And watching the movie. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:27:55 Yes, and watching the movie. And the movie's called, what's it called again?

Shanna H. Swan 1:27:59 The Plastic Detox.

Joe Rogan 1:28:01 The Plastic Detox.

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:28:02 And where is this movie available?

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:04 On your, in your house. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:28:06 Everything? Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:28:07 But is it available-

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:07 Netflix

Joe Rogan 1:28:07 ... on Amazon, Netflix?

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:09 Netflix.

Joe Rogan 1:28:09 It's Netflix.

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:10 Netflix.

Joe Rogan 1:28:10 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:28:10 Watch on Net- Netflix is great.

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:28:12 There's so many great documentaries on Netflix. The hidden dangers of plastics in our homes. Six couples embark on a plastic detox within their homes. It changes their families forever. The Plastic Detox explains what microplastics and their chemicals are doing to our health and how we can take matters into our own hands, from hormone disruption that's fueling a worldwide fertility crisis, to growing rates of cancer and early heart attack and stroke. This powerful documentary reveals the shocking science behind plastic's impact on human life.

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:43 Do you wanna see a little trailer?

Joe Rogan 1:28:44 Sure.

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:44 Or we watched a little of it.

Joe Rogan 1:28:45 Let's watch a little trailer. Put your headphones on. Well, you already know what ha- what it says.

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:49 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:28:49 I'll listen.

Shanna H. Swan 1:28:49 [laughs]

1:28:49 It's basically just a crap ton of chemicals.

1:28:51 Even the smallest levels of exposure can have profound effects.

1:28:57 Fertility worldwide is going down.

Joe Rogan 1:29:00 There you are.

Shanna H. Swan 1:29:01 Yeah.

1:29:01 And it is tightly linked to chemicals that are commonly used in plastic. We have been trying to get pregnant for over 10 years now.

Joe Rogan 1:29:09 22 months.

Speaker 1:29:10 Two and a half years.

Shanna H. Swan 1:29:12 Say what you always call yourself.

Speaker 1:29:15 Ah, I say-

Shanna H. Swan 1:29:15 This is funny

Speaker 1:29:15 ... you know, Julie, I'm not a human dildo.

Shanna H. Swan 1:29:18 [laughs]

Speaker 1:29:18 [laughs]

Shanna H. Swan 1:29:19 This is a three-month intervention where we recruited six couples who have unexplained infertility. And we look at measures of semen quality. The cutoff for fertile is about 40. You're technically subfertile, infertile, so that's kind of scary, right?

Speaker 1:29:36 Yes.

Shanna H. Swan 1:29:40 The question is, if we lower people's exposure to chemicals that are in plastic, can we change their fertility? These chemicals not only affect your fertility, they also have other health consequences.

1:29:55 These chemicals can contribute to early heart attacks and stroke, autism, as well as obesogens.

Joe Rogan 1:30:02 Learning more about plastics, it's opening my eyes to how much bigger it is.

Shanna H. Swan 1:30:08 Many people think the government takes care of us, but very few chemicals are actually banned from personal care products, and over 1,100 are banned in the EU. [coughs] To have a child, I believe it is a fundamental human right.

Speaker 1:30:24 I think you'd be the best mom ever, and I really wanna see that for you. Plastic doesn't have to come from a toxic petroleum-based material. We can learn to do it other ways.

Shanna H. Swan 1:30:36 It can change, and you can help with the change.

Joe Rogan 1:30:41 That's another good point that he just said right there, that plastic doesn't have to come from petroleum-based materials.

Shanna H. Swan 1:30:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:47 And most people aren't aware of that, but you can make plastic out of plant compounds-

Shanna H. Swan 1:30:52 Yes

Joe Rogan 1:30:52 ... like, and it's biodegradable.

Shanna H. Swan 1:30:54 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:30:55 Which is like, they make a hemp plastic.

Shanna H. Swan 1:30:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:30:58 And that-

Shanna H. Swan 1:30:58 Potatoes.

Joe Rogan 1:30:59 Yeah, potatoes.

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:00 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:31:00 Yeah, and probably a bunch of other stuff too, right? That you can make plastic out of that doesn't have these effects.

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:31:08 It would be really nice if we moved in that direction, wouldn't it?

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:10 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:31:11 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:11 Absolutely. The plant-based plastics have the cost of raising the plants, of course. There's that added cost, but-

Joe Rogan 1:31:18 Right

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:18 ... yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:18 But does that even compare to the cost of pulling oil out of the ground-

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:22 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:31:22 ... and refining it-

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:23 Right

Joe Rogan 1:31:23 ... and then turning it into plastic through some horrific process?That turns the rivers blue [both laughing] or whatever it does.

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:32 And God knows what it does, color turns us.

Joe Rogan 1:31:34 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:34 No, just kidding. [chuckles]

Joe Rogan 1:31:35 Um, is there, um, a list of garments that people shouldn't wear? Are you aware of that? The plastic leaching garments.

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:45 Well, the only specific ones I know are, because people have told me about them, are the, um, sports uniforms, team uniforms, um-

Joe Rogan 1:31:54 Because they have a coating on them.

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:55 Yeah. And then those, the-

Joe Rogan 1:31:56 To make... Is it to make them more durable?

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:57 Is that the idea?

Shanna H. Swan 1:31:58 And, and I... Probably this book, To Die For, will have more information. And [clears throat] I have it and I read... And I'm just so busy, you know, with this right now and, and s- but I'm gonna read it. And, and then, um, [sighs] sports uniforms, kids' uniforms, air- airline personnel uniforms. I think uniforms. Firefighters. Firefighters are big, big exposure to these chemicals, too.

Joe Rogan 1:32:25 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:32:25 Yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 1:32:26 'Cause they wear those waterproof-

Shanna H. Swan 1:32:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:32:28 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:32:28 Anything with it... Yeah, that's right. Anything that's waterproof, stain-proofed. Just like your Teflon pans, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:32:33 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 1:32:34 A barrier. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:32:35 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:32:35 Yeah. So yeah. But I don't any, know any part- particular brands.

Joe Rogan 1:32:41 So I would imagine, like, nylon track suits and all those different things.

Shanna H. Swan 1:32:44 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:32:44 Gotta be terrible for you. So the worst offenders-

Shanna H. Swan 1:32:46 I mean, customers, customers could look for, when they buy these things, they could look for PFAS-free. Just like now people know to look for BPA-free or-

Joe Rogan 1:32:56 Mm-hmm

Shanna H. Swan 1:32:56 ... you know. So they could look at PFAS-free, then they would be avoiding a lot of this.

Joe Rogan 1:33:00 So go back to the top, please. It says, "The worst offenders are synthetic plastic-heavy garments that are fuzzy, coated, or very tight to the skin, especially polyester fleece, recycled polyester fast fashion, and PFAS-coated water, stain repellent outerwear and activewear. Polyester fleece jackets, blankets, loungewear, extremely high microfiber shedding. One study found that polyester fleece shedding orders of magnitude more fibers per wash than other knits, which estimates around 110,000 fibers per garment per wash. This is both bad for environmental plastic pollution and for indoor dust and air." Oy. "Recycled polyester fast fashion like leggings, tees, dresses, and sportswear. New testing shows recycled polyester garments shed far-- sh- shed more a- and finer microfibers than virgin polyester." Interesting.

Shanna H. Swan 1:33:54 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:33:55 So you'd think recycled, "Oh, I'm recycling. I'm a good person."

Shanna H. Swan 1:33:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:58 No. Uh, you're killing yourself.

Shanna H. Swan 1:34:00 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:34:00 "Increased particle numbers and potential toxicity. These items are often cheaply made, shed heavily in washing, and frequently use intense dyes and finishes." Hot pink.

Shanna H. Swan 1:34:12 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:34:13 "Tight synthetic sportswear and underwear." Yikes. "These are worn for long periods directly against sweaty skin and mucus membranes, increasing opportunity for contact with microplastics and additives like antimony, phthalates, and PFAS finishes. Cheap synthetic performance or wrinkle-free fashion. Stain-resistant, easy care, anti-odor, and heavy print coating garments are more likely to use chemical finishes that can off-gas or leach on top of the base synthetic fiber issues." Hooey. "Lower concern choices. Okay, not perfect, but generally less problematic for leaching and microplastic shedding. Undyed or lightly dyed natural-"

Shanna H. Swan 1:34:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:34:56 "... fibers like cotton, linen, wool, hemp, silk, without s- uh, stain-resistant or wrinkle-free finishes. Simple weaves, knits rather than fluffy or brushed surfaces, which shed less. PFAS-free rain gear and outdoor clothing. Brands now often as P..." What, what, what rain gear is PFAS-free?

Shanna H. Swan 1:35:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:35:18 That's interesting, because I- I've always thought that, like, has to be-

Shanna H. Swan 1:35:21 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:35:21 ... coated.

Shanna H. Swan 1:35:22 Right. Oof.

Joe Rogan 1:35:25 Hooey.

Shanna H. Swan 1:35:25 A lot of work. A lot of work, huh?

Joe Rogan 1:35:26 Um, what has been the response to, uh, your... First of all, you're releasing your first book, and then coming on podcasts and talking about this thing. Um, ha- ha- has it been surprising to you? Like, what has it been like?

Shanna H. Swan 1:35:40 Um, it has been kind of surprising how much interest there is and how much, um, you know, people are taking this up. And what, what's great is there are a lot of nonprofits that are in this space that are getting out these messages. So it's not just me. You know, many, many nonprofits. And, um, a- and then there's the, um, you know, there's the, the plastics treaty, which is worldwide. It didn't pass, but hopefully they'll, it'll come back and maybe next time. And then there's the, the work that the EU is doing, which is miles ahead of us. Um, for example, um, I think I might have said this before, but, um, just... So in Europe, you, if you're gonna put a new chemical into commerce, you have to, it has to pass certain tests to be safe.

Joe Rogan 1:36:35 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:36:35 Not here.

Joe Rogan 1:36:36 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:36:37 So we're, it's, the testing is on you and me and everyone listening. Um, and w- I mean, we haven't really raised our hand and volunteered for that.

Joe Rogan 1:36:49 Well, I, I mean, I don't want this to happen, but I think maybe what has to happen is these companies have to get in trouble, you know?

Shanna H. Swan 1:36:56 Well, some of them have. You know, there are lawsuits and, and that's-

Joe Rogan 1:36:59 Are there lawsuits against, like, outerwear, clothing, like-

Shanna H. Swan 1:37:03 I, I don't know

Joe Rogan 1:37:03 ... yoga pants?

Shanna H. Swan 1:37:03 I don't know. But they're-

Joe Rogan 1:37:04 'Cause yoga pants are a problem, right?

Shanna H. Swan 1:37:06 Hmm?

Joe Rogan 1:37:07 Yoga pants.

Shanna H. Swan 1:37:07 Yes. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37:08 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:37:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37:08 Those tight nylon-

Shanna H. Swan 1:37:10 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:37:10 ... things that-

Shanna H. Swan 1:37:10 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:37:10 ... a lot of the gals wear to...

Shanna H. Swan 1:37:12 Yeah. I don't know w- where the lawsuits are. Um, I might at some point get involved in that, but at this point I don't know. But I know there are lawsuits, and that they can be effective way to push back. And by the way, you said we, we wouldn't get the, a federal law, and I think that's not for a long time, but states can do it.

Joe Rogan 1:37:31 Mm.

Shanna H. Swan 1:37:31 California, for example, is doing lots of good stuff on that.

Joe Rogan 1:37:34 What are they doing about it?

Shanna H. Swan 1:37:35 I can't name you the, the laws, but I know they're, they're very active. Um, the, um...Bonta, Ron Bonta. He's a, he's a district attorney, attorney general of the state of California. He's very active. And, and so the states that have active, you know, pushback are able to get laws passed. Um, that kind of sets the tone for the [laughs] you know, for, for what's possible. But I don't see us getting federal pushback very soon.

Joe Rogan 1:38:06 No. It seems like industry controls the federal government-

Shanna H. Swan 1:38:10 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:38:10 ... more than the sell- the, the health and safety concerns of the people.

Shanna H. Swan 1:38:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:38:15 Which is very-

Shanna H. Swan 1:38:15 Right

Joe Rogan 1:38:15 ... disturbing, but not too surprising-

Shanna H. Swan 1:38:18 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:38:18 ... when you consider a lot of the other things that are allowed in this country-

Shanna H. Swan 1:38:21 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:38:21 ... that aren't allowed in other countries.

Shanna H. Swan 1:38:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:38:23 Like when you show the list of the chemicals that are illegal in the EU, that are legal in America, that's disturbing. Like we're-

Shanna H. Swan 1:38:31 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:38:31 ... supposed to be number one. We're number one.

Shanna H. Swan 1:38:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:38:33 We're number one in chemicals. [laughs]

Shanna H. Swan 1:38:35 [laughs] Number one in chemicals.

Joe Rogan 1:38:38 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:38:38 Probably. Probably.

Joe Rogan 1:38:39 Um, y- the, the response when you were on this podcast, uh, was pretty shocking for me. So many people reached out to me. A lot of my friends that watched the episode were like, "I can't believe this."

Shanna H. Swan 1:38:50 Do you know how many?

Joe Rogan 1:38:50 Oh, I have no idea. It was five years ago, but quite a few of my friends that, you know, don't reach out with every episode, reached out and said, "That is just nuts." Like, "I can't believe this." And especially people with children.

Shanna H. Swan 1:39:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:39:02 And they're concerned about the development of their children, or people who are pregnant, who are concerned with the intake of these chemicals while they're pregnant, which has a radical effect on the child's-

Shanna H. Swan 1:39:13 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:39:14 ... development.

Shanna H. Swan 1:39:15 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:39:15 And alligator penises

Shanna H. Swan 1:39:16 ... if your friends are listening now, I can tell them that it hasn't changed much. It hasn't improved much, and we have to do a lot more. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:39:27 Well-

Shanna H. Swan 1:39:27 Both personally and, you know, pushing back

Joe Rogan 1:39:29 ... I, I hate to say it, but I think, like I said, I don't think the government's gonna do anything. Uh, I think it's gotta be up to individuals to make choices, and I'm really hoping your documentary has another big impact. One of the beautiful things about Netflix is that i- it's, even though things get promoted on Netflix, whenever anything... So many people have Netflix that when everything, anything's good, a lot of people just start sharing it and start talking about it and posting about it on social media. And then next thing, the conversation starts happening and starts raising awareness. And I really do hope you're gonna go on a bunch of other podcasts as well and, and talk about this.

Shanna H. Swan 1:40:07 Thank you. And I... And there are showings, and Netflix, y- you know, encourages that. And I'm going actually all over the world talking at showings now. My schedule is, like, crazy. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:40:19 Do you ever think, like, how crazy it is that you're this one person that's sounding the alarm? 'Cause you kind of are the most public face of this problem.

Shanna H. Swan 1:40:29 That is a little crazy to me, um, especially given where I've come from. But, um-

Joe Rogan 1:40:32 What if you didn't exist? This is the, the question.

Shanna H. Swan 1:40:35 Oh, there are many-

Joe Rogan 1:40:35 If you-

Shanna H. Swan 1:40:36 ... many people pushing back. Many, many people-

Joe Rogan 1:40:37 Right

Shanna H. Swan 1:40:37 ... pushing back. Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:40:37 ... but I don't know if they're doing it as publicly as you are, and certainly not... I mean, they haven't been on this podcast.

Shanna H. Swan 1:40:42 There are many that are. Um, I, I, you know, I f- I feel lucky that I've had th- this oppor- many, like you're [laughs] like speaking to you and your followers and, and other podcasts and, and, um... And then having the opportunity to have designed this intervention and have worked with Louie and others on the film team to put this forward, it's a very big thing. And, you know, the film costs a lot of money, and we've had worldwide support for putting this out. So there's a lot of support behind the pushback, and we just have to get everybody on, on board and just say, "No, I'm not gonna use that stuff."

Joe Rogan 1:41:21 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:41:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:21 That's, that's really what has to happen.

Shanna H. Swan 1:41:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:23 It ha- the conversation has to increase. The volume has to increase. More people have to share it and talk about it, and more people have to have you on. And, you know, we just have to sound the alarm. It's, it's kind of crazy that five years later nothing's changed because, uh, like I said, it shook up a lot of people that I'm friends with, but I didn't hear it from any other places.

Shanna H. Swan 1:41:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:47 I mean, I, I didn't see you on a... Did you do any other podcasts after you did mine?

Shanna H. Swan 1:41:51 Yeah, I did many. You know Huberman?

Joe Rogan 1:41:52 Sure.

Shanna H. Swan 1:41:53 Yeah, I did.

Joe Rogan 1:41:53 Very well.

Shanna H. Swan 1:41:53 I was on his and-

Joe Rogan 1:41:54 He's great.

Shanna H. Swan 1:41:55 Yeah, he's great. And, um, there are... I, I can't e- I can't remember them right, but yes, a lot of podcasts. But hopefully now more. Um, I, I do have more coming up. My schedule is really kind of crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:42:06 One of the things that's great is the documentary is easily digestible, you know?

Shanna H. Swan 1:42:10 Yes. Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:42:10 It's on Netflix. Everything's on Netflix. You sit down, "Okay, let's watch," and then you go, "Oh my God."

Shanna H. Swan 1:42:15 And then there's all these, you know, places to go at the end of it to, to, to learn more-

Joe Rogan 1:42:20 Right

Shanna H. Swan 1:42:20 ... if people, people wanna do that. I would love to see it viewed by influencers, not in the typical, you know, social media sense, but people like religious leaders, you know, leaders who could be won over. You know, if you have any ideas, you know. But I, I thought about having, you know, the Pope. I mean, [laughs] it sounds really wild, but, you know, a lot of people get their infor- where do people get their information? Like, from their religious leaders, from their peers-

Joe Rogan 1:42:55 Mm-hmm

Shanna H. Swan 1:42:55 ... from their doctors. By the way, none of this is taught in medical school.

Joe Rogan 1:43:00 That's crazy.

Shanna H. Swan 1:43:01 That's crazy right there.

Joe Rogan 1:43:02 Well, neither is nutrition.

Shanna H. Swan 1:43:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:43:05 Yeah.

Shanna H. Swan 1:43:06 So, you know, somebody's gotta spend a lot of time getting that curriculum changed, right?

Joe Rogan 1:43:12 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 1:43:13 Actually, you have to get the test changed because the teaching-

Joe Rogan 1:43:16 Right

Shanna H. Swan 1:43:16 ... is to the test, so.

Joe Rogan 1:43:17 Right.

Shanna H. Swan 1:43:17 If we could get this stuff on the test, there would be more doctors learning this, but they don't get it. They don't get it. They learn about lead. That's about all.

Joe Rogan 1:43:26 Well, there's not a lot of incentive to teach this stuff.

Shanna H. Swan 1:43:29 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:43:29 That's part of the problem-

Shanna H. Swan 1:43:30 Right

Joe Rogan 1:43:30 ... is that especially th- these-petrochemical companies and the, the, you know, the, uh, the use of these things is gonna affect so many different industries. Because-

Shanna H. Swan 1:43:42 Right

Joe Rogan 1:43:42 ... if you cut that out and they-- Not, I mean, how much of an impact is that gonna have on the economy if everybody just stopped using all these chemicals, all of, all the, you know, Lululemon brands and I don't wanna single them out, but all these different companies.

Shanna H. Swan 1:43:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:43:58 If they all just went under tomorrow, it, it'd be a giant problem if everybody just stopped using these things.

Shanna H. Swan 1:44:04 Maybe for a little while, but then they'd be healthier [laughs] or something.

Joe Rogan 1:44:07 Well, they'd be, people, the people would be healthier, but the companies would go under.

Shanna H. Swan 1:44:10 Oh, the companies will not be healthier. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:44:12 No.

Shanna H. Swan 1:44:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:44:12 They would-

Shanna H. Swan 1:44:13 Unless they make the switch.

Joe Rogan 1:44:14 But what could they do to make the switch? Like, if you're a company-

Shanna H. Swan 1:44:16 Well, no, you were saying, like, plant-based plastics.

Joe Rogan 1:44:19 Mm-hmm.

Shanna H. Swan 1:44:20 I mean, that's one.

Joe Rogan 1:44:20 Do they make plant-based plastic clothing? Does anybody do that? Like, plant-based plastic leggings? Let's find that out.

Shanna H. Swan 1:44:28 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:44:28 Does anybody make plant-based plastic-

Shanna H. Swan 1:44:32 Used in clothing.

Joe Rogan 1:44:33 Yeah. What are, what are, what is the, the primary chemicals that come out in... Is it PFAS? What is it?

Shanna H. Swan 1:44:38 PFAS, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:44:39 Yeah. PFAS-free leggings. 'Cause I would imagine, especially if you're, um, not wearing underwear and you're wearing those kinda yoga tights, that would get, just get in there, right?

Speaker 1:44:51 Uh, well, speaking of that, they're looking for [clears throat] they want them to be squat-proof, in quotes, so they're not see-through.

Joe Rogan 1:44:59 Squat-proof?

Speaker 1:45:00 Yeah. If there's girls wearing leggings, you know, they're gonna be doing a lot of squats at the gym probably or something.

Joe Rogan 1:45:05 Squat-proof.

Speaker 1:45:06 So they don't want people to be watching them a lot. But there are some-

Joe Rogan 1:45:09 I don't know what that means. Watching them a lot?

Speaker 1:45:11 Uh, you know, dude. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:45:13 Oh, see-through.

Speaker 1:45:14 Yeah, yeah, they're see-through.

Joe Rogan 1:45:14 Oh.

Shanna H. Swan 1:45:15 [laughs]

Speaker 1:45:15 I'm saying, like, they're squat-proof.

Joe Rogan 1:45:15 That's, but that's a weird way to say. Squat, squat-proof sounds to me like you can't do squats in them.

Speaker 1:45:20 Also probably ripping-

Shanna H. Swan 1:45:21 Right, right

Speaker 1:45:21 ... I would imagine, too.

Joe Rogan 1:45:22 I think it's just a bad phrase.

Speaker 1:45:24 But it's just-

Joe Rogan 1:45:24 You know, like when you do a squat or downward-facing dog, the fabric stretches out, you can see some undies through the fabric. Um-

Speaker 1:45:30 This is some tested nine different kinds of them. So there's a few different brands. Nah, this isn't even related.

Joe Rogan 1:45:36 So let's-

Shanna H. Swan 1:45:37 Oh, the bioplastic. You sk- Go back. There.

Joe Rogan 1:45:40 Yeah, bioplastic. Three primary categories of non-toxic workout clothes, all natural or almost all natural. For example, 100% organic cotton or 90% cotton, 10% spandex. Most semi-synthetic fabric, for instance, Tencel fabric, plant-based plastic, which is a plastic sourced from something like castor bean oil instead of fossil fuels.

Shanna H. Swan 1:46:00 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:46:00 In general, I'm not a huge fan of plant-based bioplastics. They are advertised as plastic-free alternatives, but they're still plastic, and some research shows that they're not truly non-toxic. I know. It's disappointing, it says. Uh, "Here's the honest-to-God truth. When it comes to performance, stretchiness, compression, durability, the plant-based plastics do tend to perform the best." Huh. "Followed by the semi-synthetics, followed by the all..." No. I think they mean perform the best in terms-

Speaker 1:46:32 Out of the three, I think, not better than-

Joe Rogan 1:46:34 But in terms of stretchiness com- Oh, the other three. Uh, "A lot of product categories where non-toxic options performs just as well as a synthetic option like shampoo, to give you one example. It's not really as straightforward with leggings."

Shanna H. Swan 1:46:47 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:46:47 "At the end of the day, you're gonna have to decide for yourself what kind of material you prefer. It will largely depend on things like what type of workouts you do, how you like your leggings to feel, where you work out, and more." Hmm. Okay. My reviews on these nine almost plastic-free non-toxic leggings. All right, let's get to it. It says, what are the ones? So Mate. It's a company called Mate. Overall review, it's, uh, they were the b- they're best middle ground leggings. They're super high, they're not super high performance. I don't know what that means. But they're made from healthier materials and are very comfortable. They're great for lower impact workouts, just for general everyday wearing. Squat test, passed, but had to size up. [laughs]

Shanna H. Swan 1:47:33 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:47:34 So let's find what the best one is. Do they have the best one?

Speaker 1:47:38 I don't...

Joe Rogan 1:47:39 So Mate is one of them. What are the other ones? Uh, Pangaea. Uh, overall review, uh, "Find myself reaching for these leggings more often than any of the others when it comes to hardcore workouts. Compressive nature of them makes, uh, me feel very held in when I'm jumping around. They have great stretch. Squat test, pass. Material blend, 92% polyamide, bio-based EVO, bio-based content, 8% part bio-based Creora elastane, 30% bio-based content. What makes them different, closest to conventional synthetics in terms of fit-

Shanna H. Swan 1:48:16 Hmm

Joe Rogan 1:48:16 ... feel, stretch, and compression." Okay. Well, so this website is, uh, thefittery.com, and forward slash plastic-free non-toxic workout leggings. Go check it out for yourself.

Shanna H. Swan 1:48:30 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:48:30 So there's some options that are out there. Hopefully we'll give those companies a boost and more people will wear them. Anything else before we get going? Think we covered it all?

Shanna H. Swan 1:48:40 I think so.

Joe Rogan 1:48:41 I think we sounded the alarm.

Shanna H. Swan 1:48:43 I think we tried again anyway. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:48:46 Yeah, we did something.

Shanna H. Swan 1:48:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:48:47 I, I, like I said, I think it's just a, it's a volume thing. More and more of these conversations have to take place so that in, you know, the general zeitgeist, more people are aware of it, and it's just i- increased awareness and just makes it where, you know, more people are making better choices.

Shanna H. Swan 1:49:07 And your platform is so huge that I'm really encouraged to have the opportunity to talk about this with you, and happy to come back.

Joe Rogan 1:49:16 Well, I'd be happy to have you back. I loved you the first time. You're great the second time as well.

Shanna H. Swan 1:49:20 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:49:21 And, uh, for everybody, uh, one more time, "The Plastic Detox," that's the name of the documentary. It's available right now on Netflix. Go check it out and, uh, fix your life, kids. [clicks tongue] All right. Thank you so-- I really appreciate it. It was really fun. Thank you.

Shanna H. Swan 1:49:38 Yeah. It was great.

Joe Rogan 1:49:39 And I'm really so happy that you're out there, 'cause, uh-

Shanna H. Swan 1:49:41 Thank you

Joe Rogan 1:49:41 ... like I said, if you weren't-

Shanna H. Swan 1:49:43 Thank you

Joe Rogan 1:49:43 ... doing this very important work, I wouldn't know about it, and I think a lot of other people wouldn't either. So thank you.

Shanna H. Swan 1:49:48 So pee in the cup.

Joe Rogan 1:49:49 I will pee in the cup. I promise you.

Shanna H. Swan 1:49:51 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:49:51 I promise you I'll pee in the cup, but I'll send it.

Shanna H. Swan 1:49:53 And then, and then if you want to do the next steps, let me know.

Joe Rogan 1:49:56 I will do the next steps as well.

Shanna H. Swan 1:49:57 You want to?

Joe Rogan 1:49:57 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 1:49:58 So-

Joe Rogan 1:49:58 Sure

Shanna H. Swan 1:49:58 ... so when you're ready to have a another test-

Joe Rogan 1:50:00 Talk to that microphone so people know what you're saying.

Shanna H. Swan 1:50:02 Yeah. Right.

Joe Rogan 1:50:02 [laughs]

Shanna H. Swan 1:50:03 [clears throat] So when you're ready to have an- another test kit, or you can go to Million Marker and just order one.

Joe Rogan 1:50:10 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 1:50:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:50:10 Okay.

Shanna H. Swan 1:50:11 Yeah. It's 100 bucks.

Joe Rogan 1:50:12 All right. We'll do it.

Shanna H. Swan 1:50:13 But we'll send it for nothing if you want. Just let me know.

Joe Rogan 1:50:16 I'll give you the 100 bucks. Don't worry.

Shanna H. Swan 1:50:17 Okay. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:50:18 Okay. Thank you very much.

Shanna H. Swan 1:50:19 Okay. Thank you.

Joe Rogan 1:50:19 Appreciate it. All right. Bye, everybody. [upbeat music]