Dr. Shanna Swan on Joe Rogan: Why phthalates gut sperm count

1. 0:02 – 2:28

   Why Swan returned: turning a viral question into public action

   1. SPSpeaker0:02

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. SPSpeaker0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat rock music]

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Great to see you again.

   5. SSShanna H. Swan0:13

      Great to see you, Joe.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Uh-

   7. SSShanna H. Swan0:15

      Happy to be here.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Happy to have you here. So you've got a documentary about the, uh, uh, essentially about the same subject that you talked about last time you were here, the impact of microplastics and all these various endocrine-disrupting chemicals that we're dealing with.

   9. SSShanna H. Swan0:32

      Right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       Right?

   11. SSShanna H. Swan0:33

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       So tell me about it.

   13. SSShanna H. Swan0:35

       [sighs] Well, it started as a movie on plastic, and when I met Louis, and he filmed me in New York about five years ago also, um, it wasn't the small study that we have today. Um [clears throat] but let me backtrack, 'cause I wanna tell you something-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Okay

   15. SSShanna H. Swan1:01

       ... that I never told you but-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       Okay

   17. SSShanna H. Swan1:03

       ... was so important to me. So you remember when I was here, you said, "Are you saying the toxins in the environment are threatening the survival of the human race?"

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       Right.

   19. SSShanna H. Swan1:15

       And I said, "That's my story, and I'm sticking to it."

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Yes.

   21. SSShanna H. Swan1:20

       Yes? And then you said something which changed my life. You said, "Why don't people know about this?" Remember that?

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       Yes.

   23. SSShanna H. Swan1:34

       I went home, and I thought a lot about that question, and that was what led me to s- create the program that I have now, Action Science Initiative, which is doing short, impactful, relatively cheap interventions to alert people to the problem and communicating this in a way that I'm hoping will reach more people than academia, where I was speaking before.

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:06

       Mm.

   25. SSShanna H. Swan2:06

       Because before I talked to you, I talked to my peers in, you know, academia and, and the ivory tower, you know, at the meetings where they all went, at the... They read the papers that we all read. But the general public didn't get this. So you really were... I-I have to tell you thank you, and you were actually very influential in my life.

2. 2:28 – 6:11

   Anecdotes meet biology: microplastics, testosterone, and what’s measurable

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:28

      Well, I'm, I'm very happy to help. When I first heard about your book, and I started going over the, the details of it and the subject matter, I was shocked. I, I, I, I couldn't imagine that something like this could not just have happened, but there's no large-scale effort to reverse course or to change course or to do something about it, or at least to make people aware of the impact that plastics are having on us. Let me tell you a story about a friend of mine. [swallows] Um, there's a, a guy named Philip Franklin Lee, who is a, uh, Michelin star chef that, uh, lives in Austin, and, um, he has, uh, this, uh, amazing sushi restaurant, Sushi by Scratch, and great chef. Anyway, um, he was, uh, experiencing fatigue, like always tired. Got his hormones tested, extremely low testosterone.

   2. SSShanna H. Swan3:20

      Mm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:20

      But then got his microplastics tested, and they were off the charts. Um, did a series of interventions to try to clean his body out from that. Um, s- stopped drinking anything out of plastic, stopped using plastic. Just by whatever he did, I'm not sure if he did the plasmapheresis thing that I just did recently.

   4. SSShanna H. Swan3:44

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:44

      Um, his testosterone went up to 1,200 with no testosterone replacement, no nothing. Just eliminating microplastics from his life over a period of time raised his testosterone.

   6. SSShanna H. Swan3:57

      So that's fantastic, and it's what we are seeing in the, in the film and so on. I, I wanna just make a, a small point, which is microplastics and plastics and plasticizers are not identical, right?

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:12

      Okay.

   8. SSShanna H. Swan4:12

      Right? So, um, [clears throat] microplastics are a relatively newcomer to the scene. Of course, we've had plastics since 1950, right? Microplastics have been there but not recognized until re-relatively recently, and actually measuring them in s- in our bodies is much harder than measuring the plasticizers, which are the chemicals that are put in plastic to give them the various properties that they have.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:39

      Phthalates.

   10. SSShanna H. Swan4:40

       Phthalates is one. Bisphenol A is another. Um, and so on. So there, there are other, you know... And by the way, well, we'll come back to that later. Um, so yes, we can measure those, but measuring microplastics in, particularly if we're gonna go into your brain [chuckles] or into your testicles, you know, into a woman's placenta, obviously that's much more difficult. So, um, they're not the same, but the microplastics, what they are is the actual pieces of plastic that carry the plasticizers along with them.

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:18

       Mm.

   12. SSShanna H. Swan5:18

       So they kind of piggyback on.

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:19

       Wow.

   14. SSShanna H. Swan5:19

       So they do double damage because they carry the chemical h-harms, and they also physically enter the cells, right? So do you remember, I'm sure you, asbestos, you know about-

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:33

       Mm-hmm

   16. SSShanna H. Swan5:33

       ... you know, and, um, silicosis. And these were o-other examples of particles that went into the body and conveyed both chemical harm and physical harm, like inflammation and so on and so forth. So they're all bad, [laughs] but they're not identical. And, and what we studied in The f- Plastic Detox, which is the film, um, that was, we did not study any microplastics. We studied w- the plasticizers. So-You probably remember, I think I told you last time, um, well, why should you remember? Anyway, [chuckles] they're, they're water-soluble.

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:11

       Yeah, I do remember.

3. 6:11 – 8:52

   The urine testing kit: practical measurement and behavior change in two phases

   1. SSShanna H. Swan6:11

      And so they... You remember that? You know, so they go into your urine, and, and then they're pretty easy to measure. So I'm gonna give this to you. This is a kit. Open her up. And I'll tell you what-

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:25

      Okay. Learn what's inside. All right.

   3. SSShanna H. Swan6:29

      [laughs]

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:31

      It looks like you pee in that.

   5. SSShanna H. Swan6:33

      Mm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:34

      Okay.

   7. SSShanna H. Swan6:35

      That's right. Keep going.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:37

      And there's more stuff in there?

   9. SSShanna H. Swan6:38

      Yep.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:38

       Okay. Um, something to send it back.

   11. SSShanna H. Swan6:43

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:44

       And then this looks like biohazard bags-

   13. SSShanna H. Swan6:47

       To put your pee in

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:47

       ... so my pee doesn't kill anybody.

   15. SSShanna H. Swan6:49

       [laughs]

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:50

       And, [laughs] and this is, uh, uh... It's got a QR code on it. Uh, say hello to a healthier you.

   17. SSShanna H. Swan6:59

       So those are ways to find out ways to lower your exposure.

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:02

       Okay.

   19. SSShanna H. Swan7:03

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan7:03

       I know, um, a lot of people get these, uh, harmful chemicals from drinking coffee, hot liquids out of paper cups.

   21. SSShanna H. Swan7:13

       Yeah, from the paper cups that are lined with, for example, bisphenols. But the coffee itself is made in a... Most coffee makers contain a lot of plastic also.

   22. JRJoe Rogan7:24

       Right.

   23. SSShanna H. Swan7:24

       So it comes in both the cups and in the, the device that's making the coffee.

   24. JRJoe Rogan7:29

       That's why we use metal-

   25. SSShanna H. Swan7:30

       That's good. Yeah

   26. JRJoe Rogan7:30

       ... and just make a French press.

   27. SSShanna H. Swan7:31

       Yeah. Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan7:31

       I do that at home, too.

   29. SSShanna H. Swan7:32

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan7:32

       I got rid of my plastic-
4. 8:52 – 13:31

   Inside 'The Plastic Detox' study: recruiting infertile couples and tracking outcomes

   1. SSShanna H. Swan8:52

      That's right. So you would be doing what the couples in-- part of what the couples in the intervention did. The couples in the intervention also were, were infertile, and so we're not gonna touch your fertility [chuckles] question, but they also... The men collected sperm. And you-- we can do that if you want, but I don't think you... You know, you may not wanna talk about that on your [laughs] podcast. And it-- but, um, that's what we did in the intervention. So we, in the intervention, we found... I'll just... This is, this is what the intervention was. There's a company called Fellow, which has gr- grown out of UCSF, and they're very big now. I th- think they have, like, 200,000 men in their files who have had their semen tested. Okay? And at the time they're have their semen tested, they're asked, "Could we recontact you for research?" That's one important question. And they're asked, "Why did you want your sperm tested?" And if they say, "Because we're infertile, or sub fertile, or we're worrying about our fertility," we ask, or they ask, "How long has it been that you've been having this problem with fertility?" And if it's more than 12 months, then they're technically infertile, right? So if they said they would agree to be recontacted and they were infertile, they were potentially eligible for this intervention. You with me?

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:27

      Got it.

   3. SSShanna H. Swan10:28

      So w- actually finding the couples that are in the film was a long process. They had to, of course, agree to be filmed. They had to have what we call i- t- a terrible word, idiopathic infertility, no known causes. So they... And they couldn't be obese. They couldn't be smokers. They couldn't have a diagnosis, a medical diagnosis that explains. We don't want it to be unexplained.

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:52

      Got it.

   5. SSShanna H. Swan10:53

      Okay? So w- sort of we winnowed down to what was six couples. One of them dropped out, um, for personal reasons. So I won't go into that. But, um, that's how we got those couples. And they had to be couples, by the way, and they had to be staying together for the next three months and not doing IVF. Okay?

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:14

      Okay.

   7. SSShanna H. Swan11:15

      So that's the, that was the setup. And, and then the company called Million Marker that you're gonna send your pee to, um, they have a education program, and that's a lot of what they do, the testing and the education. And so all of those couples, you know, they talked to them and said, "Tell me about what you put on your face this morning. Tell me what you washed your clothes with. Tell me what you clean your counters with," and on and on and on like that, right?

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:46

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SSShanna H. Swan11:46

      So they took an inventory of what the couples were doing. And then they started this educational program, which they're very good at and have been do- doing for a while. Once a week, they talk to them. "So how's it going? Have you changed this? What are, what are you using now?" And so on. So it was not just a one-time thing. Um, and if you were doing this, it would be short. You know, just, like, use these things [chuckles] maybe. Um, butAlong with that, [clears throat] we sent them the fellow kits to collect their semen. Okay? So we have beginning, middle, and end. It was three months, so beginning six weeks, 12 weeks. And you know why three months?

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:31

       Why?

   11. SSShanna H. Swan12:32

       Takes 70 days to make a sperm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:34

       Mm.

   13. SSShanna H. Swan12:35

       So we wanted to have a turnover within the course of the intervention. Yeah. So, so they... We sent them a kit, and they collected their semen at home, which is nice for guys because you don't have to go into lab and do it there. You know, it's, it's much better-

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:49

       Awkward

   15. SSShanna H. Swan12:49

       ... at home, right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:50

       Yeah.

   17. SSShanna H. Swan12:51

       And they send it in, and, and they figured out how to get all the parameters right even though it's mailed, and, um, yeah. So the couples did that. [clears throat] So we had, over time, levels in their body of the chemicals, semen quality, what they were doing to... What they changed in their life, 'cause we had this record of everything they changed, and then finally, we saw who got pregnant. And I hope your listeners will watch The Plastic Detox. It's a movie that a lot of people love and, and found, you know, really moving, um, and you should watch it. [laughs]

5. 13:31 – 15:34

   Everyday exposure sources: coffee cups, coffee machines, pods, and hot liquids

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:31

      Can I ask you about the coffee question? When you go to a place like, let's just say Starbucks, not to single them out, but-

   2. SSShanna H. Swan13:38

      Yeah

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:38

      ... are they using plastic with their coffee machines? Are their coffee machines made with plastic?

   4. SSShanna H. Swan13:44

      I, I don't, I don't know about any particular place except my kitchen.

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:49

      I was just-

   6. SSShanna H. Swan13:49

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:49

      Well, the question was-

   8. SSShanna H. Swan13:50

      Yeah, I suspect that they are using plastic.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:53

      Right.

   10. SSShanna H. Swan13:53

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:53

       So if people stop at a place like that on a regular basis on their way to work in the morning to get coffee, and they use... They bring their own plast- Or excuse me, they, they bring their own stainless steel thermos or mug, that would eliminate some of it, but perhaps-

   12. SSShanna H. Swan14:08

       One source. Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:09

       Yeah, but perhaps they're getting it actually from the coffee machine itself. 'Cause I see-

   14. SSShanna H. Swan14:15

       Yes

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:15

       ... when they slide those-

   16. SSShanna H. Swan14:16

       Yes, yes, yes. That's right

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:17

       ... when you see these big industrial machines-

   18. SSShanna H. Swan14:19

       Yes

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:19

       ... and they slide those filters in, those filters are plastic.

   20. SSShanna H. Swan14:22

       Yeah. Yeah. Well, they're, they're probably... They probably have bisphenol in them, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:27

       Right.

   22. SSShanna H. Swan14:27

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan14:27

       It's a plastic tray.

   24. SSShanna H. Swan14:28

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan14:28

       It seem-

   26. SSShanna H. Swan14:29

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:29

       It seems like.

   28. SSShanna H. Swan14:29

       Right. Right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:29

       I don't know.

   30. SSShanna H. Swan14:30

       Yeah.
6. 15:34 – 20:19

   It’s not just men: women, testosterone, and sexual health links to phthalates

   1. SSShanna H. Swan15:34

      And by the way, not y- the women... Let me show you something. We, you, we didn't talk about the women last time very much, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:39

      Right. Well, a little bit we did.

   3. SSShanna H. Swan15:40

      Little.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:40

      Yeah.

   5. SSShanna H. Swan15:40

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:41

      We, we, we... I think we did.

   7. SSShanna H. Swan15:43

      So the women need testosterone, too-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:46

      Mm-hmm

   9. SSShanna H. Swan15:46

      ... um, you know, for sexual arousal and libido and so on, and, and muscle. And, um, and we, in our, um, one of our, our study, study for Future Families, I think, or maybe... Yeah. Um, [clears throat] we asked... We got the urine, and we saw what they h- you know, how much phthalates were in their urine, and then we asked them some questions about their sexual experience. So how satisfied were they with their sexual, sexual life, um, and frequency. And the women who had higher levels of phthalates were, had less satisfaction and lower frequency. So it's not just the men.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:32

       Completely makes sense.

   11. SSShanna H. Swan16:34

       Everyone needs testosterone.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:35

       Yeah. My wife's friend got on testosterone. She's, uh, I guess she's about 50. She got on testosterone 'cause of her, her doctor put her on some low level of cream or something like that.

   13. SSShanna H. Swan16:46

       Mm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:46

       And her, her response was like, "It makes me horny like a bloke." She's English. [laughs]

   15. SSShanna H. Swan16:53

       [laughs]

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:55

       I thought that was a very funny thing that she said it that way.

   17. SSShanna H. Swan16:59

       Did she think that was a good thing?

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:01

       Yeah, she enjoyed it.

   19. SSShanna H. Swan17:02

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:02

       Apparently.

   21. SSShanna H. Swan17:03

       Yeah. Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:03

       Allegedly.

   23. SSShanna H. Swan17:04

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       I didn't speak to her directly.

   25. SSShanna H. Swan17:05

       [laughs] Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       But I think that's what she was saying.

   27. SSShanna H. Swan17:07

       Right. Right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:07

       Like, whoa.

   29. SSShanna H. Swan17:09

       Right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:09

       You know? Just whoa.
7. 20:19 – 24:22

   PFAS ‘forever chemicals’: non-stick cookware, stain-proof clothing, and uniforms

   1. JRJoe Rogan20:19

      an $111 value at drinkag1.com/joerogan. Non-stick cookware.

   2. SSShanna H. Swan20:27

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:28

      Um, that stuff has-

   4. SSShanna H. Swan20:30

      That's different.

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:30

      Is that different?

   6. SSShanna H. Swan20:30

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan20:31

      It was when you have non-stick cookware, does that have any endocrine-

   8. SSShanna H. Swan20:35

      Yes

   9. JRJoe Rogan20:35

      ... disrupting chemicals as well?

   10. SSShanna H. Swan20:36

       Yes.

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:36

       Yeah.

   12. SSShanna H. Swan20:36

       But different ones.

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:37

       Different ones?

   14. SSShanna H. Swan20:37

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:37

       Well, which ones are those?

   16. SSShanna H. Swan20:38

       So those are what's called the PFAS chemicals.

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:41

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SSShanna H. Swan20:42

       And [clears throat] it's in actually not just cookware. It's anything that pu-put-puts a barrier between two medium, if you will. Um, like a rain jacket will put a barrier between the rain and your skin.

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:57

       Right.

   20. SSShanna H. Swan20:58

       Um, [clears throat] and, uh, also stain resistant. It'll barrier with the st- the stain. Um, and it's very, very prevalent. I mean, it-it's all your... You know, it's in clothing, it's in-

   21. JRJoe Rogan21:14

       I've read it's in a lot of yoga tights and things along those lines.

   22. SSShanna H. Swan21:17

       Yes. Yes. Workout clothes.

   23. JRJoe Rogan21:18

       That's so crazy.

   24. SSShanna H. Swan21:19

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan21:19

       You think you're being healthy-

   26. SSShanna H. Swan21:20

       Yeah

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:20

       ... and you're exposing yourself to endocrine-disrupting chemicals.

   28. SSShanna H. Swan21:24

       And uniforms. There's a book. I-I-I don't... Should, probably shouldn't recommend another book, but I think it's a good book, [laughs] I'll just say. It's called To Dye For, [clears throat] D-Y-E.

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:34

       Uh-huh.

   30. SSShanna H. Swan21:34

       And it's about the flight attendants' uniforms and the harms that they do because they're coated, they have a lot of PFAS 'cause they, you know, have to keep clean, and the... And, and they've got... They're not clean, right?
8. 24:22 – 27:13

   Fertility decline isn’t just ‘choice’: population trends and parallel animal impacts

   1. SSShanna H. Swan24:22

      Yeah, [laughs] right. So to go back to that point you raised about, you know-Reasons that people give for low testosterone or low fertility, low sperm count, [clears throat] and particularly this comes up for fertility. Cou- more couples are... You know the fertility is in the toilet, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan24:42

      Yes.

   3. SSShanna H. Swan24:42

      Yeah. That's a weird thing to say, but [both laughing] yeah, right.

   4. JRJoe Rogan24:47

      For lack of a better-

   5. SSShanna H. Swan24:48

      Right, right, right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan24:49

      Yeah.

   7. SSShanna H. Swan24:49

      Um, [clears throat] and, um, I mean, it used to be five children per couple on the average in 1960, and now it's, in South Korea, it's like 0.88.

   8. JRJoe Rogan25:04

      Wow.

   9. SSShanna H. Swan25:05

      That's the worst, you know, um-

   10. JRJoe Rogan25:07

       Why is South Korea the worst?

   11. SSShanna H. Swan25:08

       I don't know. I mean, all of East, Asia is very, very low.

   12. JRJoe Rogan25:11

       South Korea's, their replacement numbers are so low-

   13. SSShanna H. Swan25:15

       That's right

   14. JRJoe Rogan25:15

       ... that it's, they're in danger of complete population collapse.

   15. SSShanna H. Swan25:18

       Absolutely. And, and Japan is getting there and, you know, all of that Southeast Asia. [clears throat] And, um, so when there's a lot of articles about this, a lot of editorials, a lot of articles, and they make me so, Joe, they make me so mad because they say correctly that having a child at older age will do this to some extent. You know, not wanting to have a children, as many children, will do this to some extent, but they never mention toxics.

   16. JRJoe Rogan25:52

       Mm.

   17. SSShanna H. Swan25:53

       They just-- And so I've written editorials saying, "Hey guys, we're not alone on this planet, and we're not the only species that's declining in number." And then if you look at the curve of the number of species that are declining and the rate of decline of human fertility, they're parallel. It's all, all about 1% per year. And, and so they're... And we know they're exposed, these other species. You showed it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan26:21

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SSShanna H. Swan26:21

       Those fish in that water are exposed and, you know, animals on the periphery. So I would love for everybody when they look at these numbers of declining fertility, consider that it's not all choice.

   20. JRJoe Rogan26:37

       Right.

   21. SSShanna H. Swan26:38

       Animals are not choosing to have their children later or to delay childbearing, right?

   22. JRJoe Rogan26:43

       They have big careers.

   23. SSShanna H. Swan26:45

       [laughing] Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan26:45

       Beavers are trying to make dams. They don't have time for children.

   25. SSShanna H. Swan26:48

       Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So for, for me, you know, it's not... Th-there-- Those are good, those are explanations for sure. Obviously, when you get older, your fertility is less. Obviously, if you're, have a busy life and you don't have time to have children, you shouldn't have children. But the toxics matter.

   26. JRJoe Rogan27:11

       Yeah.

   27. SSShanna H. Swan27:11

       They matter a lot.

   28. JRJoe Rogan27:12

       100%.

   29. SSShanna H. Swan27:12

       Yeah.

9. 27:13 – 35:12

   How exposures reach wildlife: pesticides, phthalates, and the alligator case study

   1. JRJoe Rogan27:13

      And the animals, uh, is the issue exposure to water that has these chemicals in it because of pollution? What is, what is causing it with animals?

   2. SSShanna H. Swan27:24

      It's all, it's in the water. It's in the soil. It's, um, in the f- what they eat because it comes in, you know, in the plants. Um, it-

   3. JRJoe Rogan27:34

      It gets into the plants?

   4. SSShanna H. Swan27:35

      Yeah. Do you know that phthalates, I'm just, this is a little fun fact. Phthalates are put in pesticides. Why would they do that? Well, they, because one of the things that phthalates do is they increase absorption. That's why they're in hand cream.

   5. JRJoe Rogan27:53

      Oh.

   6. SSShanna H. Swan27:53

      Right? You see, you put your ha- the cream on, it goes in your skin, right? Phthalates help that. You w- you have the pesticide you want it to go into the plant, phthalates help that. So you know, they're, these exposures are all over the place for, and animals are getting them too. A long time ago, I don't think we talked about this, but there was a wonderful scientist who's not living anymore. His name was Lou Gillette. He lived in Florida, and he showed that alligators swimming in a lake that had a lot of runoff of pesticides. Get this, their penises were small.

   7. JRJoe Rogan28:33

      Mm.

   8. SSShanna H. Swan28:34

      He measured them, and he was, he was a big, he's like you, he was a big guy. He, he went... He had to do it at night. He went at night, wrestled them into the boat.

   9. JRJoe Rogan28:43

      [laughing]

   10. SSShanna H. Swan28:45

       And I have pictures of that. Took them to his lab.

   11. JRJoe Rogan28:47

       Measured their penises.

   12. SSShanna H. Swan28:48

       Measured their penises.

   13. JRJoe Rogan28:49

       They must have been very confused when they got let go.

   14. SSShanna H. Swan28:52

       [laughing]

   15. JRJoe Rogan28:52

       Like, "What is this guy kinky with? What is his thing?"

   16. SSShanna H. Swan28:55

       [laughing] You know, and, and they, and they had fewer eggs.

   17. JRJoe Rogan29:01

       Right.

   18. SSShanna H. Swan29:03

       So they're a declining species. That's just a very dramatic example of, uh, you know, if you... Can you put up, mm, penis size and-

   19. SPSpeaker29:14

       And what?

   20. SSShanna H. Swan29:14

       ... alligator penis size?

   21. SPSpeaker29:15

       [laughing]

   22. SSShanna H. Swan29:15

       I'm just wondering. Am I-

   23. JRJoe Rogan29:17

       As if you don't already Google that, Jamie.

   24. SPSpeaker29:19

       Let me find you a photo.

   25. SSShanna H. Swan29:22

       [laughing]

   26. SPSpeaker29:23

       Uh, I asked our, uh, Perplexity this thing, and it says, yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan29:25

       So our sponsor, Perplexity, said, "Yes, this has actually been documented in wild alligators. Males in heavily polluted lakes have, on average, smaller penises and other reproductive problems linked to hormone-disrupting chemicals." We are shrinking alligator penises, ladies and gentlemen.

   28. SSShanna H. Swan29:42

       And not only alligator penises.

   29. JRJoe Rogan29:43

       Twenty to twenty-five percent smaller penis sizes-

   30. SSShanna H. Swan29:46

       Yeah
10. 35:12 – 44:33

    Personal protection vs. failed regulation: TSCA, Europe’s approach, and funding gaps

    1. SSShanna H. Swan35:12

       So I wanna go back to this question I asked, is whose responsibility? So I don't think it's... I mean, it's great for you and I to be concerned and for your listeners to be concerned, but in fact, it's n- shouldn't be our responsibility because the, you know, the drug, FDA does drugs, right?

    2. JRJoe Rogan35:32

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SSShanna H. Swan35:32

       They have pretty good control of, you know, safety of drugs.

    4. JRJoe Rogan35:35

       Eh.

    5. SSShanna H. Swan35:36

       Pretty good.

    6. JRJoe Rogan35:37

       Eh.

    7. SSShanna H. Swan35:38

       Yeah. Okay, we can talk about [laughs] ...

    8. JRJoe Rogan35:40

       [laughs]

    9. SSShanna H. Swan35:40

       But, but compared to chemicals in our daily products, the products we use every day, it's fantastic because-

    10. JRJoe Rogan35:50

        Right

    11. SSShanna H. Swan35:50

        ... the regulatory agencies are not doing the job.

    12. JRJoe Rogan35:54

        Right.

    13. SSShanna H. Swan35:55

        Okay? And so that's why it's all out there [laughs] because they're not doing the job here. In Europe, it's much better, by the way.

    14. JRJoe Rogan36:01

        Is it?

    15. SSShanna H. Swan36:02

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan36:03

        Well, that's bad 'cause they're gonna beat us. They'll r- out reproduce us. We'll go away-

    17. SSShanna H. Swan36:07

        [laughs]

    18. JRJoe Rogan36:07

        ... and they'll take over. [laughs]

    19. SSShanna H. Swan36:09

        [laughs]

    20. JRJoe Rogan36:09

        No more America.

    21. SSShanna H. Swan36:10

        We have to get people angry-

    22. JRJoe Rogan36:14

        Yes

    23. SSShanna H. Swan36:14

        ... enough to put pressure on... You know, there, there's a bill, the TSCA, Toxic Substances Control Act, which should be doing a lot of this, and I think it's coming up for revision and, and, you know, maybe people can pay attention to that and read about it and, you know, think, "Government should be doing this. It's not our job."

    24. JRJoe Rogan36:39

        Mm-hmm.

    25. SSShanna H. Swan36:39

        It's not our job to worry about what's in our pants and what's in our this and our this and our this and-

    26. JRJoe Rogan36:45

        Right

    27. SSShanna H. Swan36:45

        ... you were asking what kind, what's in [laughs] you know, denim and so on. W- should we have to read up on that?

    28. JRJoe Rogan36:50

        Is there, are there dyes for jeans and clothes that are not toxic?

    29. SSShanna H. Swan36:58

        Yes, but as I said-

    30. JRJoe Rogan36:59

        Are they more expensive?
11. 44:33 – 56:16

    Water, fluoride, and chlorination: distillation, filtration, and unintended harms

    1. JRJoe Rogan44:33

       Here's a good question. Are there any good filters on a consumer level that will remove a lot of these chemicals from water that a person could buy?

    2. SSShanna H. Swan44:45

       I can't name any brands.

    3. JRJoe Rogan44:47

       Right. But are they a-

    4. SSShanna H. Swan44:47

       Yeah

    5. JRJoe Rogan44:48

       ... available?

    6. SSShanna H. Swan44:48

       But yes, there are. But I, I-

    7. JRJoe Rogan44:50

       Is it reverse osmosis? Like, what are the ones that work the best?

    8. SSShanna H. Swan44:54

       I'll tell you my, my solution in my house.

    9. JRJoe Rogan44:56

       Yes, please.

    10. SSShanna H. Swan44:56

        Okay. [laughs] That's very personal. Um, [clears throat] we distill our water. Y- you know?

    11. JRJoe Rogan45:03

        Mm-hmm.

    12. SSShanna H. Swan45:03

        So, so the water out of the tap-

    13. JRJoe Rogan45:06

        Mm-hmm

    14. SSShanna H. Swan45:06

        ... goes into a big container, and then it's boiled, [clears throat] steam is formed, crosses over, and the steam is condensed into another container, right?

    15. JRJoe Rogan45:16

        Right.

    16. SSShanna H. Swan45:17

        And that has nothing in it and removes everything. And by the way, all germs also. So yeah. So that's what we've chosen. N- and then, and this thing that sits on the counter, um, my husband does this every other day. It's kind of a nuisance, but not too bad. And, and the water is fantastic.

    17. JRJoe Rogan45:37

        Do you have to re-mineralize it?

    18. SSShanna H. Swan45:40

        You should take minerals somewhere. You can do it in the water. You can do it in your supplements. Yeah. You, you... It is, does remove the minerals, yes.

    19. JRJoe Rogan45:47

        Right. And that's what I've heard is the problem with drinking distilled water, is that it actually leaches minerals and nutrients from your own body because-

    20. SSShanna H. Swan45:55

        That I don't believe.

    21. JRJoe Rogan45:56

        No?

    22. SSShanna H. Swan45:57

        I don't believe that.

    23. JRJoe Rogan45:57

        Okay.

    24. SSShanna H. Swan45:57

        But the water itself has had its minerals re- removed.

    25. JRJoe Rogan46:00

        Well, let's put it into Perplexity. What, what is the issue with drinking distilled water for health purposes? And d- is it recommended that you add electrolytes or minerals or what have you? Because, um, that's wh- so one of the things that, uh, fighters do when they're cutting weight, I don't think most of them do it anymore, but a lot of them were drinking distilled water so that the water would go in their system and right out of their system. 'Cause cutting weight for fighting, I don't know if you know about this, but-

    26. SSShanna H. Swan46:30

        Yeah

    27. JRJoe Rogan46:30

        ... they have to weigh in at a certain weight class, and essentially what they do is radically dehydrate themselves 24 hours before a fight, which is not a great idea. It's a terrible idea. So Perplexity says it is generally safe to drink distilled water. Most people do not need to add minerals to it as long as they eat a reasonably balanced diet.

    28. SSShanna H. Swan46:47

        Right.

    29. JRJoe Rogan46:47

        Distilled water simply water that's been boiled and recond- condensed, so it's very low in contaminants and minerals. Health sources note that it is safe to drink, but tends to taste flat 'cause minerals like calcium, magnesium are removed. Uh, what about minerals? You get the vast majority of needed minerals, calcium, magnesium, potassium, et cetera, from food, not water. So distilled water alone does not usually cause deficiencies in healthy people with a good diet. However, some organizations and reviews point out that long-term use of very low mineral water may slightly reduce mineral intake, and in specific groups, children, heavy exercisers, there we go, people with certain illnesses could contribute to electrolyte imbalance if diet is poor. So when might adding minerals help? Distilled water is your main or only drinking water, and your diet is low in fruits, vegetables, and other mineral rich foods, adding a pinch of mineral salt or using a re- remineralization cartridge, that sounds terrible. Cartridge sounds like plastic, right?

    30. SSShanna H. Swan47:44

        [laughs]
12. 56:16 – 1:16:08

    Kitchen ‘detox’ swaps: silicone storage, beeswax wraps, sponges, and sous vide concerns

    1. SSShanna H. Swan56:16

       Do you wanna see these products I brought?

    2. JRJoe Rogan56:17

       I would love to see these products you brought.

    3. SSShanna H. Swan56:19

       Here you go. [clears throat] These are for cleaning up your kitchen.

    4. SPSpeaker56:23

       Just a note on what you just said.

    5. JRJoe Rogan56:23

       What's up, Jimmy?

    6. SPSpeaker56:24

       A note on what you just said. A saltwater pool is still technically a chlorine pool.

    7. JRJoe Rogan56:28

       Oh, still a chlorine pool.

    8. SPSpeaker56:29

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan56:29

       It just makes the chlorine on site instead of pouring it in. Oh.

    10. SPSpeaker56:33

        Yeah.

    11. SSShanna H. Swan56:33

        Hmm.

    12. JRJoe Rogan56:33

        Salt systems where the pool is ordinary salt, sodium chloride dissolved in the water, usually around two thousand seven hundred, three thousand four hundred parts per million, which is about one-tenth the salinity of the ocean and close to body fluid levels. The water passes through an electrically charged salt cell-

    13. SSShanna H. Swan56:50

        Hmm

    14. JRJoe Rogan56:50

        ... which uses electrolysis to convert some of that salt into active chlorine, uh, mainly hypochlorous acid and sodium hypochlorite that sanitizes the pool. After chlorine does its job, it ends up back as chloride, and the cycle repeats, so you keep generating-

    15. SSShanna H. Swan57:08

        Hmm

    16. JRJoe Rogan57:08

        ... chlorine as long as the system runs and there's enough salt. What's different from your standard chlorine pool, you still have free chlorine in the water at typical pool levels, about one to four, four parts per million. The difference is the source, salt generator versus liquid tablet chlorine, not the sanitizer itself. Most people find salt pools a bit gentler. The water feels softer, and continuous low-level generation can mean fluor- uh, fewer chloramines, the sme- less smell and irritation if the system is sized and maintained correctly. Interesting. Okay, so it's still chlorine. So it still probably disturbs your microbiome, which sucks. This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. April 15th is coming fast. There's been so many tax law changes this year, which means you're going to need an expert who has your back. You're in luck. TurboTax now has in-person locations nationwide. Walk into their tech-enabled stores and meet face-to-face with a TurboTax full-service expert who will get your best outcome. Your expert works to get you every dollar you deserve while updating you as you go about your day. Head to turbotax.com to find a store near you. Um, sealed.

    17. SSShanna H. Swan58:29

        [clears throat]

    18. JRJoe Rogan58:29

        So should I open it?

    19. SSShanna H. Swan58:32

        Should be open. Look.

    20. JRJoe Rogan58:33

        No, it's not. It's sealed. It's tight. [packaging ripping] What do we got in here? A lot of stuff.

    21. SSShanna H. Swan58:39

        [laughs] So in the movie, you'll see that I came to the homes of the participants with a big box, about this big.

    22. JRJoe Rogan58:47

        Mm-hmm.

    23. SSShanna H. Swan58:47

        So this is obviously a very small [laughs] part of that.

    24. JRJoe Rogan58:50

        Okay.

    25. SSShanna H. Swan58:51

        Yep. This is just part of your kitchen.

    26. JRJoe Rogan58:53

        So these are bags that are safe-

    27. SSShanna H. Swan58:55

        Yeah

    28. JRJoe Rogan58:56

        ... oven, freezer, microwave d- it's called Zip Top. So-

    29. SSShanna H. Swan58:59

        Yeah, they're silicone. They're made of silicone.

    30. JRJoe Rogan59:00

        Oh, okay.
13. 1:16:08 – 1:27:15

    Fragrance and indoor exposure: air fresheners, scented products, and incense risks

    1. SSShanna H. Swan1:16:08

       By the way, we didn't talk about smell.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:16:10

       Smell.

    3. SSShanna H. Swan1:16:11

       But everything that's fragranced has phthalates.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:16:14

       Of course.

    5. SSShanna H. Swan1:16:15

       And, you know, like you think you're doing good if you hang that little pine tree in your car.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:16:22

       Not good?

    7. SSShanna H. Swan1:16:23

       Not good. [laughs]

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:16:25

       Damn.

    9. SSShanna H. Swan1:16:25

       And, and you plug in things in the wall that, supposed to clean up your air and, you know, refresh your air and so on. Not good.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:16:33

        There's ones that are in cars now, like certain cars. I think Mercedes has one where you refill it, and you can... It actually will spray air freshener through the vents.

    11. SSShanna H. Swan1:16:46

        Oof. I don't like that.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:16:46

        Does a Mercedes do that?

    13. SPSpeaker1:16:47

        I'm not sure.

    14. SSShanna H. Swan1:16:48

        [laughs]

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:16:48

        I think it's Mercedes, which makes sense. You know-

    16. SSShanna H. Swan1:16:50

        [clears throat]

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:16:51

        ...luxury. I wanna smell like lavender as I'm driving.

    18. SSShanna H. Swan1:16:54

        Right.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:16:55

        Ah, look at me in my luxurious car-

    20. SSShanna H. Swan1:16:57

        You know what-

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:16:57

        ...smelling lavender-

    22. SSShanna H. Swan1:16:58

        If something-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:16:58

        ...dying of chemical exposure

    24. SSShanna H. Swan1:17:00

        ...we asked women on the, on this, our sur- you know, our study. We said, um, "What do you use?" And then we said, "Was it fragranced?"

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:17:07

        Mm.

    26. SSShanna H. Swan1:17:08

        And anything where they said that was fragranced, their body burden of phthalates was higher.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:17:13

        Of course. What about natural deodorants?

    28. SSShanna H. Swan1:17:17

        I don't know.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:17:18

        Yeah.

    30. SSShanna H. Swan1:17:19

        We'd have to look it up. Yeah.
14. 1:27:15 – 1:50:33

    Scaling awareness: documentary release, safer materials, clothing guidance, and next steps

    1. SSShanna H. Swan1:27:15

       Yeah. But I mean, the rate at which plastic production is increasing is astounding, you know?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:27:21

       Yes.

    3. SSShanna H. Swan1:27:21

       It, yeah, and s- w- no, no end in sight, you know?

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:27:24

       Well, I don't think you're gonna get the government to act about this stuff. I think this has to be done on an individual level where people are aware of it and take steps to protect themselves and their family from these issues. That's my cynical view of how this is going to be played out, and I'm h-really hoping... I know for a fact a lot of people listened to our last conversation and made some lifestyle changes. I'm really hoping that now, with this follow-up visit, more and more people will be aware of it.

    5. SSShanna H. Swan1:27:54

       And watching the movie. [laughs]

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:27:55

       Yes, and watching the movie. And the movie's called, what's it called again?

    7. SSShanna H. Swan1:27:59

       The Plastic Detox.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:28:01

       The Plastic Detox.

    9. SSShanna H. Swan1:28:02

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:28:02

        And where is this movie available?

    11. SSShanna H. Swan1:28:04

        On your, in your house. [laughs]

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:28:06

        Everything? Right.

    13. SSShanna H. Swan1:28:07

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:28:07

        But is it available-

    15. SSShanna H. Swan1:28:07

        Netflix

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:28:07

        ... on Amazon, Netflix?

    17. SSShanna H. Swan1:28:09

        Netflix.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:28:09

        It's Netflix.

    19. SSShanna H. Swan1:28:10

        Netflix.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:28:10

        Okay.

    21. SSShanna H. Swan1:28:10

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:28:10

        Watch on Net- Netflix is great.

    23. SSShanna H. Swan1:28:12

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:28:12

        There's so many great documentaries on Netflix. The hidden dangers of plastics in our homes. Six couples embark on a plastic detox within their homes. It changes their families forever. The Plastic Detox explains what microplastics and their chemicals are doing to our health and how we can take matters into our own hands, from hormone disruption that's fueling a worldwide fertility crisis, to growing rates of cancer and early heart attack and stroke. This powerful documentary reveals the shocking science behind plastic's impact on human life.

    25. SSShanna H. Swan1:28:43

        Do you wanna see a little trailer?

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:28:44

        Sure.

    27. SSShanna H. Swan1:28:44

        Or we watched a little of it.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:28:45

        Let's watch a little trailer. Put your headphones on. Well, you already know what ha- what it says.

    29. SSShanna H. Swan1:28:49

        [laughs]

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:28:49

        I'll listen.

Episode duration: 1:50:34