The Joe Rogan ExperienceLazar & Vendittelli on Joe Rogan: How Element 115 fuels S-4
The Blender-built S-4 reconstruction triggered details Lazar had forgotten; he re-describes a reactor fueled by Element 115 and a repulsive gravity field.
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,251 words- 0:02 – 2:14
Recreating S‑4 for the new film: AI vs handmade CGI pipeline
- SPSpeaker
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.
- SPSpeaker
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- SPSpeaker
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat rock music]
- JRJoe Rogan
We're up, gentlemen.
- BLBob Lazar
Hey, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Great to see you again, Bob.
- BLBob Lazar
Same here. Long time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Luigi.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, you are still, to this date, the most watched ever podcast we have ever done that's on YouTube.
- BLBob Lazar
That's, uh, that's just unreal.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
It's unreal.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is unreal, 'cause it, it shows you how many people are just absolutely fascinated by the story. And what you guys have done in this new film is essentially recreate S-4, and using AI, recreate you as a young man in these experiences that you had, and it was really excellent. And Luigi, uh, you're the one who put the film together. You figured it all out. And first of all, what was the technology that you guys used to recreate everything that you did?
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
Yeah. I d- I just wanna say there's, there's about 10% AI in the film, but there's 90% blender, and that's actually handmade CGI. So everything you see is all handmade, and even the de-aging of Bob Lazar, we scanned Bob. We went over to his house, scanned his face, took a process of de-aging him through that, then creating a digital model of Bob in different ages, and then placing him in the environment. And then in some instances, at the very end, we perfected or kind of put a bow on it with a little touch of AI, but the whole thing is handmade. So the craft, the environment, the Papoose Lake, the, the, the facility, the equipment, and the people were all made. And some of the people are actually real actors that we put in there. So it's not... It's, it's, there, there's one of the guys that is Barry in the film is a guy called Luis Martinez that's been working with me for the past 10 years, and he laughs at it 'cause he goes, "I can't believe I'm Barry," [laughs] you know? So...
- JRJoe Rogan
Does he look anything like Barry?
- BLBob Lazar
Actually, he does. He does.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
That's why we chose him. [laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, yeah.
- 2:14 – 3:31
Where are ‘Barry’ and other S‑4 personnel now? Lifers, secrecy, and vanishing trails
- JRJoe Rogan
Where is Bar- the actual Barry now?
- BLBob Lazar
I don't know. You know, I kinda thought at one point, after all this happened, we would at least hear from one of those guys. But, uh, I never heard from anybody after, you know, after the, the initial release of all the information, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It seems like, wow, I don't know. Uh, if people are able to keep secrets for this long, it's gotta be very difficult to just blurt it out. Like, a v- you know, you're holding onto a secret for 20, 30, 40 years. You're... It's like-
- BLBob Lazar
I guess. These guys were lifers, though.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BLBob Lazar
I mean, they spent most of their time there. They spent at least two weeks at a time and had one week off, so they stayed at the base. I mean, these guys were hardcore. I had just come in on the project, you know? So, um, I don't know. I don't know what happened to him. I'd love to know. I suspect that Dennis Mariani, my supervisor, died. I've seen people track him down, you know, all the way to point, uh, speaking to his family, and they said, "Yeah, he had some classified job out in the desert or something," and they showed me his gravestone and stuff. So, uh, you know, at least they were able to track him down, but I've never heard of any leads on Barry or Rene or anybody like that.
- 3:31 – 8:15
Watching your own memory rebuilt: VR walkthroughs, uncanny accuracy, and recovered details
- JRJoe Rogan
What is it like seeing the recreation of it in a film? 'Cause, I mean, essentially, it was your d- um, direction, for lack of a better word, your description of it, you, you telling them exactly how ev- everything was laid out. And then once they recreated it, what is that feeling like when you watch it?
- BLBob Lazar
Well, the final product is absolutely mind-blowing because, as I've said to Luigi, "It looks like you guys downloaded that out of my brain." I mean, you know, you can describe something 100 times, and until you actually make a, a picture, it doesn't become clear. But, uh, you know, this took years. I think it was, like, five and a half years from when I first met Luigi, and he said, "Yeah, I can do this." And, um, the quality kept improving to where he started showing me pictures, and I went, "Jesus, that's, that's really it. It's not really it. It's really it." And, uh, I mean, it, it blew me away. Later on, he showed me a 3D environment where I could put goggles on and move around inside. I mean, that made the hair stand up on my arms. It was, it was unbelievable. So, um, I don't know if I could really describe how that made me feel, but it felt like I was teleported back there, and that's, you know, that's when really I developed an admiration for Luigi's talent.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
I said, "I, you know, I'm buying this," and, uh, flew out to Canada a couple times. I didn't have much to do with the film other than, I guess, a couple times going out there and going, "No, that's right. That's the wrong color. Move this here. Do that." And, uh, but those guys spent over three years working on it, and, um, you know, what they... And they never showed me anything.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
You know? I'd speak to Luigi, you know, a couple times a month, and, you know, he'd always say, "You, you... Oh my God, you won't believe this." I said, "Show me." "Uh, no, it's not, it's not done yet."
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
So I really didn't get it to s- to, to see anything till close to the end, but when I did, um, r- really, [laughs] without trying to sound dramatic, it really put tears in my eyes, going, "That, it, that's it. That's it. You, you did it. Just stop. It's perfect." So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I, I had the pleasure of watching the movie with you, and sitting there with you w- there was a bunch of times during the movie where you're like
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
Like you could tell.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That it was just like-
- BLBob Lazar
I swear I could feel that place. I, I could feel it watching that movie. It, it, it just, it really freaks me out because as I've said before, it's not like what I saw. It's, it's exactly what I saw. Um, it's, it's perfect. It's just like Luigi was at S-4 with a camera, so, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
It was very unique
- BLBob Lazar
... it worked.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a, it's a very unique documentary in that regard, and, and watching it with you, seeing you experience this thing, and then me trying to imagine what it's like for you. You're this young scientist who gets brought in on this thing without much explanation, and then all of a sudden you're confronted by this craft. And you, you know, the way it's broken down in the film, and you get to actually see you viewing this thing and being in the presence of this thing for the first time, it's just v- I could just only imagine what that must have been like for you. And it's so weird to watch you watch it again and see your wheels spin.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just like, "What the fuck happened to my life, man?"
- BLBob Lazar
[laughs] Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
"What did they do to me? What did they b- what did they make me experience? Like, what the hell?"
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. I, I, I really can't fill in the blanks there. It's, uh-
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
I, I wanna just say that there was a time when Bob got angry at me a lot 'cause I wouldn't show him, and he was like, "Come on, show me," and I said, "It's not ready yet. I don't wanna show you something." But at a certain point we had to, and Bob started remembering more stuff-
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, yeah, that's true
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
... when you saw it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- BLBob Lazar
It, it-
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
And I-
- BLBob Lazar
It really made a big difference when he sh- when he showed me some things and, you know, walking down the corridor here on turn, "Oh, stop, wait. There's another door there." I mean, it was like I was going back into the facility and, uh, really brought, I mean, actually seeing it again, uh, really brought some things back that I'd, that I had completely forgotten about. So that, you know.
- 8:15 – 12:19
Consistency, credibility, and intimidation: why Lazar’s story persists
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, what's really fascinating is y- y- for people that don't know your story, you came up with this story, you talked to George Knapp in, was it '89?
- BLBob Lazar
'88.
- JRJoe Rogan
'88.
- BLBob Lazar
'88, '89.
- JRJoe Rogan
'89.
- BLBob Lazar
Somewhere in there, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So late '80s, you've essentially told the exact same story all these years, and then within the last, you know, nine, 10 years, we've started to get all these reports. There was the New York Times story, there was the GO FAST video, and the FLIR video, and all these videos that show a craft that's moving the way you described-
- BLBob Lazar
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... this sport model moving.
- BLBob Lazar
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which kind of freaked a lot of people out with the way it rotated and turned.
- BLBob Lazar
Rotate, r- yeah, does the belly roll, faces at the bottom towards where it's wanna go, and then it, it takes off, and yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's exactly how you described all those years ago, which is really fucking crazy.
- BLBob Lazar
Well, that's, I mean, that's the way it was.
- JRJoe Rogan
But it's just-
- BLBob Lazar
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... it's, it's crazy because you had this story way, way, way back then, and everybody's like, "This guy's just making things up. This is all cockamamie bullshit." And then you see those videos from these fighter jets and you're like, "Whoa, wait a minute. This, it's moving the exact same way he described. It's doing what he described in 1989."
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. Yeah. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Time to take a drink.
- BLBob Lazar
Cheers.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. [laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
Cheers. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause it's so weird. I can't im- I mean, I've had so many conversations with people, and, you know, one of the things that comes up is, uh, "Do you think Bob Lazar is telling the truth?" And I say, "Look, I don't know. There's no way I can know, but he doesn't seem like he's lying. I've been around a lot of liars."
- BLBob Lazar
Look, nobody can know unless you're there, you know? I'm the biggest skeptic of all. Although, if you look at Wikipedia, it says I'm a conspiracy-
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
Theorist or something
- BLBob Lazar
... yeah, a conspiracy theorist.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it says I'm a far-right podcaster. [laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. All right.
- JRJoe Rogan
So... [laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
I mean, yeah, it's crazy. But, uh, shit, I lost my train of thought now.
- 12:19 – 19:40
The moment it ‘wasn’t ours’: directives, shock, and acclimation inside the program
- JRJoe Rogan
I know it's so many years ago, but do you remember the thought that came in your mind when you realized that it wasn't ours?
- BLBob Lazar
Do I remember the thought? I-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you remember the experience?
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, I rem-
- JRJoe Rogan
Of, of-
- BLBob Lazar
I remember the feeling
- JRJoe Rogan
... of recogni- like, 'cause initially you saw the American flag sticker.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, when I saw the American flag when I first went in, it, the first time I went in through the hangar door instead of around the back, um, you know, slid my hand across it, saw the American flag, and I thought, "Oh, my God," you know? "This explains the UFO nuts," you know? Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's ours.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, this is ours. This is a new top-secret fighter. We came up with a new propulsion system and, uh, you know. It, it explains everything because I never believed in flying saucers. I thought people were nuts. Um, but when they started reviewing everything with me, they were trying... I was trying to replace somebody, or they were trying to use me to replace somebody as quick as possible, and, um, they had two directives. One was to... Directive one was to duplicate the technology with available material at any cost, which is exact, verbatim what it was, and directive two was to be able to disable this technology at a distance at any cost. And, you know, once you start thinking about that [laughs] "Wait, don't you guys know how the thing you built worked?" And it's kinda like they left that out, that [laughs] this, by the way, this isn't ours. And Barry is the guy that filled me in, going, "No, no, no. This is an alien craft, and we need to figure out how this works. Look at the technology here. I mean, this is decades, light years ahead of where we are." And, uh, I, I... It, it, it was a, it, it was a shock, really, to me. I remember g- going home that night and just laying in bed and reviewing everything that everybody said that day. And, uh, I really don't remember how I felt the following days, but I... It was just a different, it was just a different feeling. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like the world just changed.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. It was... I don't know. I really can't put it into words.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I couldn't imagine. I couldn't imagine what that experience is like. And it's also very strange that they would bring you in and not specifically state to you that this is not ours. They just bring you in and just give you a directive. This is your, what you are trying to accomplish.
- BLBob Lazar
Well, they gave me the, they gave me a bunch of briefings. Everything was moving at a very fast pace, and I don't know why. Um, I think I mentioned in the movie, uh, right prior to I got there, there, there were Russians involved, and it, you know, from what I can ascertain, w- there was an exchange of information, and then we discovered something, something of great importance, and, uh, of course, kicked the Russians out and just held onto that information ourselves. And, uh, there was kind of a knowledge vacuum there. There was also an accident, and I was told I was replacing someone, uh, that was injured. I believe he actually died. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
There's no record of who this person was or has anybody ever tried to figure it out?
- BLBob Lazar
I don't know. I don't have any names. I just know that Barry told me, you know, I'm replacing somebody that he used to work with, and he was without a lab partner for a while, so when I came in there, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
How long's a while?
- BLBob Lazar
I don't know, but, I mean, that brings up a good point. First of all, we're dealing with alien or another civilization technology, whether it, you know, is from another dimension, another time, another planet. I mean, who really knows? Um, so I'll eventually get to answer the question here. But, uh, wouldn't you think this place would be more like the lunar receiving lab where everything is white? You know, so you can see a speck of dust. There's, everything is sterile. People are being extremely careful with what they're doing, but you're not seeing that. This is in, now, something akin to an aircraft hangar in the middle of the desert. There is dust on everything. People are taking everything nonchalantly. There's a, there's a friggin' poster about the thing. You know, a "They're here" poster there. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
And thank you, Luigi, for getting me that poster.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
We gotta figure out a place for that-
- BLBob Lazar
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
... and put it in here somewhere.
- BLBob Lazar
It's awesome.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think-
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, but, but, I mean, they went through the trouble of making a poster. They actually-
- JRJoe Rogan
I think right here.
- BLBob Lazar
That's a good place.
- 19:40 – 26:57
Compartmentalization vs science: why progress stalled and how the craft behaved as a unit
- JRJoe Rogan
One of the things you talked about in the first podcast that I think is really important is that the only way for science to really progress is that these various scientists have to be able to communicate, and you have to be able to share ideas, and you have to be able to collaborate. But that's not how this was run because it was so top secret. Everything was compartmentalized. Like, the metallurgists weren't talking to the propulsions people who weren't talking to, if there were biologics experts.
- BLBob Lazar
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, everybody was-
- BLBob Lazar
Super frustrating. Super frustrating because I, I think-- I, I don't remember exactly where that started. Again, it's forty years ago. But I think it started with, uh, with the seats. And, uh... No, it sta- it started with the actual skin of the craft because everything looked like it was made from the same material. And I wanted some information, um, about, you know, the skin, the superstructure of the craft, and they said, "No, it's, that's restricted. What's, you know, we n- we need a reason for you to..." I, I just wanna see if everything is exactly the same material. And what I call the seats in the craft, I still don't know if they were the seats, but they might be. I think it'd be hilarious if they were actually something else. Um, but I wanted some information on those, and that was restricted information, too. There were other groups working on that. So they compartmentalized stuff so much. There was no exchange of information between any groups. I mean, you could submit a written response that your supervisor, in my case Dennis, would have to carry over, and they would have to approve and, you know, you'd get a two- or three-line response from, you know, the other group. But it's, it's just, that's not how science works. Science works on the free exchange of information. And it, they, they were just killing themselves with security. And, uh, it wa- it was really frustrating. It was terribly frustrating.
- JRJoe Rogan
So was this a function of security people, people that are concentrated on top s- top security that don't truly understand how collaborative science works?
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. That's it right there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BLBob Lazar
You can stop right there. They, they had no idea how that works.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because it stands to reason that whatever that thing was made out of probably in some way interacts with the propulsion system and-
- BLBob Lazar
Right
- JRJoe Rogan
... whatever controls that are in it, that this material has to be particularly unique.
- BLBob Lazar
Exactly. That's exactly my point. And I suspected the material was an electret. You know what an electret is?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- BLBob Lazar
Okay. You know, like a magnet, a permanent magnet is like, you know, it's a magnet.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BLBob Lazar
It's forever it's a magnet.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BLBob Lazar
It has a magnetic field. An electret is a material that has a permanent static field to it, a static electric field to it. And I strongly suspected that's, that the craft was made out of an electret. And I was not, uh, because again, that's the material science guys, I was not allowed to connect that two. But that's a, tha- that's so important to connect it to the propulsion system and how the propulsion system, uh, interacts with the amplifier or the emitters, and I just, I, I wasn't allowed [chuckles] you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- BLBob Lazar
... the information I needed. So it was, uh, I don't know. It, it, it was self-defeating-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well-
- BLBob Lazar
... is what it was
- JRJoe Rogan
... it seems like they were treating it like a fighter jet or a automobile. Like, in an automobile, you have the outer area, the shell of the car. You have the doors, the skins, the hood, the roof, all that stuff, which is me- But then you have the propulsion system, which is the engine-
- BLBob Lazar
Right
- JRJoe Rogan
... and the transmission and the tires and the wheels and the suspension. But they're all not connected. They're connected because they're bolted together, but they have different functions.
- BLBob Lazar
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think the idea or the concept, at least as, as I'm gathering from you, is that this thing all worked as a cohesive unit.
- BLBob Lazar
Right, with no physical connection between, you know, b- between the subsystems.
- JRJoe Rogan
And all of it made out of the same material.
- BLBob Lazar
At least on the outside. At least on the outside, all made of the same material. And the other crafts all had the same power plant in them. So that brings to mind, you know, like a, like a GM plant that makes a car with a Chevy 350 and makes, you know, a dozen different models to it.
- 26:57 – 35:38
Material mysteries: seamless construction, ‘magical’ waveguides, and the insulator ring
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
I, I would like for you to tell Joe one of the things that also in- interested me, 'cause I built the craft, is how the waveguide worked with the ceiling intu- in the interior and how it blended. If you can explain, there was no telescopic-
- BLBob Lazar
Well, well, this is why w-we wanted to talk to the metallurgists people. The, uh, the reactor that sits on the bottom of the craft has a little dome over it, and there's something that looks like a pipe that's slight. You can lift it up and take the reactor out, put the reactor in, and lift it down. But you know, like a antenna works on an old walkie-talkie?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- BLBob Lazar
It has different sections.
- JRJoe Rogan
There it is. There's from the video.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
There it is.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Um, yeah. You can retract the pipe, but there's no sections, and it doesn't get any thicker. It just becomes smaller. And if you look underneath, um, where the emitters hang down, um, they turn. It-- And it, it, it doesn't buckle. It's, it's a magical material. This is the, this is the basis of the craft, is really the material that it's made of. It's am- it's amazing the way it works. It ju- You can push it into a smaller volume, and it doesn't change at all. It doesn't, it doesn't get bigger physically. It's, um... I don't really know how to describe it.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you're lifting the pipe up and down, but it's not going anywhere?
- BLBob Lazar
Look, if you had a big pipe-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- BLBob Lazar
... and you push it together, it has to get thicker.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BLBob Lazar
Because the material has to go somewhere. This doesn't. Okay? It stays in exactly the same dimensions. It just becomes smaller.
- JRJoe Rogan
How?
- BLBob Lazar
Well, yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause you couldn't talk to the metallurgists, so you have no idea.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. Well, yeah. But those guys knew how.
- JRJoe Rogan
They did know how?
- BLBob Lazar
I-- Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, they know it did it.
- BLBob Lazar
They know it, they know it did it, and that's their job. So I imagine they have more information than I did. Um, but that was fascinating. It really was. And the, uh, the waveguides that hold the emitters, they come down, and the emitters can turn and bend, and the pipes bend, and nothing changes in them. It's-- And there's no wires or anything to make the pipe bend. Um, I, I'm, I'm trying to relate it to something, but I can't think of anything to relate it to.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, one thing that you said that I, I also thought was fascinating, there's no seams. So everything looks like it's 3D printed.
- BLBob Lazar
Again, right. It comes down-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- BLBob Lazar
... to the material.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which at the time, 3D printers weren't real, right? They-
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. At the time, that really confused me. I said, "How did they build this? It must have been built out of wax or something and then melted," um, 'cause you can't build anything without seams. And then 3D printing came into existence, and, you know, and you could build stuff from layers up. Um, that made sense. You know, some sort of 3D printer, or they grew it, uh, you know, i-in some... A- of course, it's not a crystalline fashion, but, um, I, I don't know how that was fabricated, but it was fabricated different than anything that we have. I don't even think it was 3D printed.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so you never got any inkling or any understanding of what the metal was? What, what, what kind of an alloy, what it consisted of?
- BLBob Lazar
All I can say, it was cold to the touch 'cause the, you know, when I, when I touched it. But, um, I can't say it was a, if it was a ceramic or a me- I'd say it was metal 'cause it was cold. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause it looks like metal.
- 35:38 – 41:23
Aftermath and ethics: secrecy, fear of misuse, and dark disclosure scenarios
- BLBob Lazar
No. But that's what they wanted to do. And really thinking about that now, I'm not sure, [laughs] I'm not exactly sure these guys should be allowed to do that. This is really powerful technology, and the world has really changed. I mean, we have a lot of crazy people doing stuff now, and nonsense transmits through the population at the speed of light. And, uh, you know, I don't know. This can be a very powerful world-conquering technology. And look, for 40 years, I think I've said this before, for 40 years all the people in control of this information have all agreed to keep it quiet. And these aren't idiots. These aren't idiots for 40 years. You have a line of people that all have agreed, "No, let's not say anything. No, let's not say anything. No, let's not say anything." There has to be a reason whyAnd if they all agreed to that, maybe I'm the asshole.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
No, really. Maybe they're right and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Maybe you would've figured that out if you kept working for them.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, I don't know. But I'm increasingly thinking I'm the one that made the mistake. Maybe this is supposed to be just kept quiet.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, but that doesn't ring true. C- 'cause I don't think it's ever healthy if small groups of individuals have information that would change our understanding of where we are.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, there's that. There's that.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's, I don't think they, I don't think they deserve it. I don't think it's right. I don't think it makes any sense. What, I think you have an obligation to-
- BLBob Lazar
Well, I don't know. I mean, really, but really think about it. What if it's something that's really dramatic?
- JRJoe Rogan
Like how so? Like what do you think would be like-
- BLBob Lazar
I don't know. May- maybe, I mean, what if it's, I'm not saying this is what it is, but I mean, what if it's like, you know, like we y- like we raise cows out in a field and just feed them grass and they're just gonna be food. What if it's something like that? What if we're just like, you know, a, a population of creatures that are just to be consumed in some way?
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't know if we're to be consumed, but I do think we are-
- BLBob Lazar
Not physically consumed-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- BLBob Lazar
... like eaten, but I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
I think we have a task, and I'm, um-
- BLBob Lazar
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
... more and more convinced as time goes on that we were engineered. I don't think we came about as a normal evolutionary process like all the other animals.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, I, I agree with that. I, I really agree with that too, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's a lot of people that think that. It just doesn't make sense objectively. I mean, without seeming like a kook or someone who buys into conspiracy theories, if you just look at all the other biology on Earth, why is one so uniquely able to manipulate its environment, communicate instantaneously at distance, do g- g- can't really e- even exist in its environment in most places that it lives without clothes and shelter. We're a weird animal. We're, we're very strange. Like we don't seem to have normally adapted to our environment with the way we've completely controlled our environment with air conditioning and electricity and electronics and flight and travel. We're so beyond everything else that evolved, whereas every other animal, predator or prey, plant eater or meat eater, all seems to cohesively exist inside of its ecosystem. And then you have us, which is like-
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... almost like an invasive species. Like invasive species destroy ecosystems, like, because they don't belong there.
- BLBob Lazar
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's kind of what we do. Like we suck all the fish out of the ocean. We pollute the rivers with our technology. We, you know, m- mess up underground water systems with fracking and dril- we, we're like an invasive species in a lot of ways.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
We're really weird.
- BLBob Lazar
[laughs] I can't argue with that at all.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, this Bursh- Tim Burchette thing. Um, so Tim Burchette has recently been talking about this and that w- he can't talk about it because it's classified, but he said, "You'd be up at night with the things that I've seen-"
- BLBob Lazar
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
"... if the things that I've seen are released."
- 41:23 – 50:59
John Lear stories: signal vs noise, ‘soul catcher’ lore, and credibility filters
- BLBob Lazar
Like I, my, my good friend that died, John Lear, who had a bunch of crazy thoughts, I mean, he used to come over and tell us that, uh, you know, on the Moon there was a soul sucker.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
And when you... He did. He said this. You better give me that bottle. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] Have another drink before you explain this one.
- BLBob Lazar
Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, boy. A soul sucker.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
John Lear was a eccentric individual.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm kind of sad I never met him.
- BLBob Lazar
Man, he, he w-
- SPSpeaker
Some supporting evidence.
- BLBob Lazar
He was a [laughs] -
- JRJoe Rogan
What? Terrence McKenna talking about the Moon being a soul catcher?
- BLBob Lazar
Moon's a soul catcher.
- SPSpeaker
Moon's a soul catcher.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, he'd give me pictures-
- SPSpeaker
Okay. I'll go with that
- BLBob Lazar
... of these giant an- antennas on the Moon and, um... In fact, I'll tell you a story. He, um, uh, you know, he was an accomplished pilot, had many world records and, and things of that, you know, um, part of the Lear family that his father invented autopilot, the eight-track tape, all kinds of stuff. And, uh, but he, John Lear was a loose cannon. At the time, uh, he'd fly from Las Vegas and, uh-You know, shuttle L-1011s, which are giant planes, back and forth, and he'd say, uh, you know, be kind of lonely and goes, "Hey, you wanna go to Minneapolis tonight?" He'd call me, like, at 9:00 at night and say. "Well, no, not really." "Oh, come on. Come on. Fly with me." He said, "Just put on a suit and, you know, come to so and so," and I'd go to McCarran Airport and, you know, go there, and, uh, "Yeah, I'm gonna tell everybody you're, you know, an inspector from the FAA."
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
And I'm like, "Okay, great." You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
And I'd get on the plane, and he'd say, you know, "Just act like you're, you know, gonna kick everyone's ass."
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
So I'd go on there, and I'd sit in the... They fold down a jump seat behind the plane, and I'd just sit there looking at everybody, and, God, all of this stuff is so illegal. And, um, you know, get on there and, and fly, and, you know, John would take... And the Et- L-1011 was a, a pretty advanced plane at the time. This was in the '80s. And, uh, you know, John would be smoking his pipe. He'd take off. He'd put his feet up and smoke his pipe, and he'd fall asleep, and I'd just be, you know, hanging out there, and, you know, before the plane would land, he'd just, you know, wake up and, you know, be smoking his pipe, and the, you know, plane would land itself. At the time, my wife was taking flying lessons, and, um, he said, "Yeah, yeah, you know, bring her up here." And, um, the... I think they had an engineer also on another panel. I don't, I don't quite remember, but I was there with my wife. There were people on board, and he, he'd say, "Hey, come on here and take the wheel," and he'd get the captain of the plane, would, you know, I think my wife was in her 20s at the time, and just sit her down and say, "Yeah, hold onto it, and, you know, just keep correcting," and he'd just let her fly the plane, which is insane. And, um, you know, the co-pilot would just look over, and I remember looking over at, I think, the engineer that looked at the gauges, and he just put his head down [laughs] and pretended like nothing was happening. And, um, that was just one time. Another time, he was fu- uh, ferrying an L-1011 going by Roswell. At the time, I was living in New Mexico, and they called him and told him he wasn't getting paid, that the company was, you know, defaulted or something like that. And he was coming up to New Mexico and landed at the Roswell, just took the plane and landed at the Roswell Airport, this, the whole 1011, got off, walked out, walked up to a bus station, gave me a call on the, the payphone and said, "Hey, Bob, I'm coming over." "Okay. You know, you're in New Mexico." "Yeah." And he drove up. Taxi would drop him off at the house. He'd walk [laughs] he'd, he walked in, and he went, "Boy, I'm tired," and he'd just lay down on the couch, you know, and go to sleep. And I said, "You d- what are you doing here? What's going on?" "Oh, I just dropped a plane off. They're not paying me, and, you know, that, that's it."
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
But I mean, John Lear was such, like, a loose cannon. Um, he was, he was a great friend to have, but, uh, he had no bullshit filter. If he had a retired general come up and give him all kinds of information or if he had a psychic come up from, you know, the neighborhood and give him all kinds of information, he'd put them in the same category.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- BLBob Lazar
You know? And, uh, so he really did have useful information that was difficult to get, but it was mixed up with nonsense.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 50:59 – 54:23
Navy links, oceans, and origins: Zeta Reticuli vs time/dimension hypotheses
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. No, questions for me are people that ask me over decades the sames, same questions. You know, why is it the Navy? The Navy paid me. I always said the Na- everything has been the Navy instead of the Air Force because, you know, back in the '60s and '70s, you know, there's Project Blue Book and the Air Force and all that, but, um, everything associated with this was the Navy. So, and in, in these days, you hear some of these new types of crafts that are kind of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Transmedium.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. You, you hear the word transmedium, and in it, David Fravor, Commander David Fravor, you know, with the Tic Tac and, you know, things are under the water. And, you know, supposedly the, the craft that, the Sport model was an archeological re- recovery, and that itself was underwater. So what is, what is the deal with the water? I mean, it's, it, it's by far the biggest medium of the planet. I mean, if you wanna hide people down there, almost an entire civilization down there, you could do it in the ocean, as long as you do it deep enough and away from people. So yeah, number one is what's the deal with the ocean? That's probably the, the number one question.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because there's a ton of sightings where people see things come out of the water and go into the water.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. There has to be a reason for that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, just in terms of if they have the ability to travel through space, if they, if whatever that thing is really does create some sort of a gravity bubble or some sort of a space-time bubble-
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, but maybe it's not space. Maybe it's not space. Maybe, maybe it's time. Maybe it's another dimension. There's, there's really no limits. If you can start manipulating physics in that way, um, you can bend time. You can open doorways into ano- other dimensions. So maybe it has nothing to do with going... I, w- look, we all want it to be like Star Trek.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BLBob Lazar
You know? Because Star Trek is really understandable.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BLBob Lazar
You go out there, you fly to another planet, you meet the people there, you go to another one. Well, these guys are happy. Those guys aren't, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BLBob Lazar
And it, it all makes perfect sense. I don't really think it's like that. Look, you know, if you look in history, especially, you know, in United States history, any time a superior race or intelligence meets with an inferior one, it's never good for the inferior guys. Never. We never come over and go, "Oh, we just wanna teach you guys everything that we know."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BLBob Lazar
No, no.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nope.
- BLBob Lazar
It's like-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
... we're gonna rape all your women-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- BLBob Lazar
... take all your stuff, and then just kill you. You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Use your resources.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, right, and just consume everything you want. That's just always the way it goes. Now, maybe that's just what humans do, but I [laughs] would be concerned that's what all life does.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, we are territorial primates.
- BLBob Lazar
Hmm.
- 54:23 – 1:26:57
Humans, evolution, and the ‘grays’: endocrine disruption, technology drift, and AI futures
- JRJoe Rogan
And that makes sense that that's what we do. The thing that always fascinates me about particularly the grays, they seem to be genderless, and they seem to have no muscle at all. They, and they seem to have enormous heads, and the stories at least, the anecdotal accounts of people having communication with these creatures, is that they communicate s- in some way telepathically.If you transcend all of our weird biological needs, like all the things that are attached to being a human being, ego, lust, greed, desire to conquer, desire to control resources, all those things are territorial primate instincts. In one of the conversations I had yesterday with my friend Theo, we were talking about, like, what's happening to people's bodies, is that people are slowly... We- we're consuming microplastics and phthalates and all these things that are reducing our reproductive system. Our testosterone's-
- BLBob Lazar
Mm-hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... dropping.
- BLBob Lazar
Right, right.
- JRJoe Rogan
All this stuff, like, leads you to say, "Well, where does this go ultimately?" Like, well, like, how many more people are autistic now than were before? It's one out of 12 boys in California now. It used to be one out of 10,000 just a few decades ago. Like, we're moving into this very weird direction without us recognizing it.
- BLBob Lazar
Wait, let me stop you there. It's one out of how many?
- JRJoe Rogan
One out of 12 boys in California are diagnosed autistic now.
- BLBob Lazar
But do you think that might be the way they're diagnosed?
- JRJoe Rogan
No. No, I think it's exposure. I think it's exposure to chemicals, vaccines-
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... um, environmental toxins.
- BLBob Lazar
You think that too?
- BLBob Lazar
I think that.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's not just me. There's tons of studies and, and a lot of buried studies too.
- BLBob Lazar
Okay. I mean, if that's accurate-
- JRJoe Rogan
You know
- BLBob Lazar
... that's frightening, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it is... It, it's, it can't be just diagnosed because, I mean, I know so many people that have non-verbal autistic kids, where I didn't know anybody that had non-verbal autistic kids when I was younger.
- BLBob Lazar
Well, you know, I mean, back in the '60s and '70s, there was no... there were no kids with ADHD.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- BLBob Lazar
Kids that were like that were just assholes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- BLBob Lazar
You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
I think that's still the, the case. I don't think ADHD is a real diagnosis. I think it's a real excuse g- to give people medication. I think ADHD is essentially a superpower. What ADHD is, it allows you to concentrate on things that you really enjoy, but you cannot concentrate on things you don't enjoy.
- BLBob Lazar
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think I have it, you know? And I think I'm very fortunate that I'm not diagnosed and medicated, or wasn't, or was born in the right time when they weren't doing that as much.
- BLBob Lazar
No, I... Actually, I'll stop you there and say I, I agree that that's a superpower too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because it's-
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... very unusual. I can-
- 1:26:57 – 1:46:13
How the reactor ‘pushes back’: repulsive field, weight cancellation, and Element 115 questions
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that is... So one of the things that I wanna talk about is the, the actual, the generator, this thing that works on this element that bombards with radiation. How did you guys figure out what the function of it was and what it did? So when you're first introduced to this craft and you see this, this dome-
- BLBob Lazar
The reactor. Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... the reactor that's covering this, this thing that's generating this power, what, what was h- what was the introduction to it? How'd they explain it to you?
- BLBob Lazar
The introduction was, was way before me. Um, and, uh, that's where the guy prior to me either got hurt or killed. So they determined that this was the power source, and at some point they decided to take that out to the nuclear test site because they wanted to cut into it. Um, they X-rayed it. They, they only found a small tube that run, went around it. They really couldn't determine how it worked or what was going on. So at some point, and, and Barry made this somewhat clear that they cut into the reactor while it was running, or, or while it was under load, I should say, and the reactor exploded. That's what ki- killed or hurt the person that I replaced. But, um, it produced the, the base gravitational wave or base energy that provided, that propelled the craft, that provided the craft the propulsion. I mean, when they removed it, the craft didn't work. When they put it in, every single other craft they found had something either exactly like it or similar to it. So, uh, it, it- they determined that was the power source. That's at the point that I was introduced into the project.
- JRJoe Rogan
So when you say gravitational wave, is that for lack of a better term, or is it something that's measured? Is it-
- BLBob Lazar
No, it's a, it's for lack of a better term. Like, there, there's nothing... I mean, a- as I said in Luigi's movie, you can take magnets with like poles and push them together and they repel, but you can't take your hands ever and push on something and they repel them. That's a force field, right? That's science fiction stuff, but that's what this did. And this produced a field that repelled the craft from the ground.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you try to touch it?
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I pushed on it.
- JRJoe Rogan
And when you tried to touch it, what did you feel?
- BLBob Lazar
A, an elastic field. You can push down, but you can't get close to it. The closer you get to it, the, the, the more it pushes back. So you, you, you c- you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like how much distance between you and the actual thing were you able to achieve?
- BLBob Lazar
I, I mean, I would say about-
- JRJoe Rogan
Six inches or so?
- BLBob Lazar
Uh, uh, maybe about nine inches, which is about a span. And, um, no, it's, at, at some point you, you can't push back on it at all. But the important thing is if you have a magnet s- a little disc magnet sitting on the ground and you have another magnet and you push on it, that magnet moves away, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- BLBob Lazar
'Cause it's pushing on it. But the craft didn't. The reactor didn't. If you had the cra- it, the reactor there and you pushed back on it, it didn't push away when you pushed on it.
- JRJoe Rogan
It just prevented you from touching it.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah. And so when Dennis said, "Go, go out there and look under the craft," um, here's the craft, whatever it weighs, suspending itself above the ground, and I went underneath it. You would think it's translating its weight onto the ground and pushing, and I should be s-
- JRJoe Rogan
Squashed
- BLBob Lazar
... squashed b- without any doubt, but I'm not. There's no feeling there at all. So it's not translating its weight or its push to the ground and pushing off the ground. It's just canceling out its weight, which is something completely different.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm. And so when... So Element 115.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, so you have it in this triangle-shaped form.
- BLBob Lazar
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you ask how they got it into a triangle-shaped form? Was it made-
- BLBob Lazar
Well, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
... like this? Is this how it came in the reactor?
- BLBob Lazar
I'm su- I'm sure I did, but I mean, it only worked like that. It worked like a stack of dis- discs, and it had to be cut at a certain angle to work in the reactor. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
And did they say they cut it, or did they say it was already cut?
- BLBob Lazar
Well, it was already cut and they were duplicating it
- 1:46:13 – 1:49:33
Crash materials and nuclear-test interference: bismuth layering, Starfish Prime, and ‘donations’
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I think... Oh, that's what it was. Oh, this is what it was. So one of the pieces that Gary Nolan had found-
- BLBob Lazar
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... that was, uh-
- BLBob Lazar
Who is, uh, who's Gary Nolan?
- JRJoe Rogan
Gary Nolan is the guy out of Stanford that has examined these pieces that are from supposedly crashed sites, crash sites where something had gone down and scattered. Some of these pieces, they're atomically layered, and it's-
- BLBob Lazar
I've heard that
- JRJoe Rogan
... magnesium and bismuth seem to be prevalent in these things.
- BLBob Lazar
Bismuth is the thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BLBob Lazar
Bismuth is the thing. It's right above 115 on the periodic chart, and there's, yeah, there's something about that. There's something about 115.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
All this weird magnetism stuff with bismuth. There's a video from The Action Lab, The Strange Magnetism of Bismuth, and it's showing a bunch of weird-
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah, it's, it's diamagnetic. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So ex- let him play it out a little bit.
- SPSpeaker
No. I was trying to find the...
- BLBob Lazar
What is diamagnetic? Diamagnetic is it opposes magnetic fields.
- SPSpeaker
I see.
- JRJoe Rogan
So it kind of makes sense if they're finding these pieces that are... The way he was explaining-
- SPSpeaker
There's bismuth. That's bismuth, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The way he's explaining this a- whatever this alloy was, this very small piece that was found, I believe, in the, prior to the 1970s. I don't remember the exact date that he's had, from one of these crash. One of them was from Brazil that they had recovered.
- BLBob Lazar
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And someone had gotten possession of it in the 1990s, and someone ha- had gotten it eventually to Gary Nolan. He said that to create this on Earth, first of all, it can't be done with current technology. We don't have the ability to do this.
- BLBob Lazar
The layering technology?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- BLBob Lazar
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that it would cost billions of dollars just theoretically-
- BLBob Lazar
Hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... to make this, and it's, it doesn't exist.
- SPSpeaker
I remember seeing this, yeah.
- 1:49:33 – 2:25:40
Ancient tech detour: Egyptian labyrinth claims, underground structures, and missing scriptures
- JRJoe Rogan
Are you aware of, um, the labyrinths in, uh, Egypt that they've discovered? So there's this thing-
- BLBob Lazar
Are you talking about the-
- SPSpeaker
The columns
- BLBob Lazar
... columns under the ground?
- JRJoe Rogan
No, no, no. This is unrelated.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is something different. So Herodotus discussed this. Now, uh, my friend Ben van Kerkwyk, he has, uh, UnchartedX on, um, YouTube. It's an amazing channel where he was a, a tech guy who just got absolutely fascinated by all these stories of ancient history and really got obsessed with Egypt and Peru and, and left his field and started making these incredible videos. But he's highly intelligent, incredibly articulate, and so these videos are f- just absolutely fantastic. And really, uh, w-He's, he's very well-versed scientifically, so he can understand these things and explain them to you. Like, they're examining, like, the construction of the pyramids and the whatever technology was used to carve the stones, and there's just so much of it that is, like, confusing because it's, it clearly is, like, a very high-
- BLBob Lazar
Hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... level of sophistication and-
- BLBob Lazar
Mm-hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... technology that's involved in creating these things. Well, Herodotus described these labyrinths that were underground in Giza. Not, not, not in Giza, but Hawara? Is that where it was? Jamie'll find it. But this, these ... The way Herodotus described it, he said they were far superior and more impressive than the, the, the Pyramids of Giza. Underground. Well, these-
- BLBob Lazar
Wow
- JRJoe Rogan
... massive labyrinths that exist underground were all flooded in the 1960s accidentally when they created dams-
- BLBob Lazar
Hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... in order to, uh, provide irrigation to agriculture that was in the area.
- BLBob Lazar
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they changed the water table, fucked it up. This whole area got flooded.
- BLBob Lazar
Did they know they were there when they accidentally-
- JRJoe Rogan
No, they didn't.
- BLBob Lazar
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because a lot of this stuff, like, this is from thousands and thousands of years ago. A lot of it was covered over with sand.
- BLBob Lazar
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, you know, there ha- there had been some explorers a long time ago that went there and saw some of what was in there, but the way Herodotus described it, it's just absolutely fantastic.
- BLBob Lazar
Interesting.
- JRJoe Rogan
So then they started using ground-penetrating radar, and they started using these various technologies that could detect what was under the surface, and one of the things that they found was there's a massive atrium, and inside this atrium-
- BLBob Lazar
You mentioned this to me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. There is a 40-meter-long metallic object that is inside this atrium, 40 meters of some unknown metal.
- BLBob Lazar
How deep is it?
- JRJoe Rogan
I believe it's 100 meters into the ground.
- BLBob Lazar
So you're telling me ground-penetrating radar can get to 100 meters underground? And-
- 2:25:40 – 2:53:55
Luigi’s validation moments: darkness inside the craft, the reversed flag, and S‑4 map evidence
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
I, I mean, I, I have to say in having worked with him and having... You know, i- inadvertently, there's no way that myself or people on my team weren't trying to dig deeper and fi- maybe there's a prob- maybe there's gonna be a gap. Maybe we'll find something wrong with the story. 'Cause we're, we went, we went very deep. We had to build S4. We had to build the sport model. And there were things that happened over the years, things that he had said to us before we had built it, that there's no way he coulda known, because there was physicalities, real things that we built. When you build something in a 3D environment, you're actually building a real world. It's got light bounce and refractions like the real world. Like, when you turn on the light, it does the same thing. If a material has a sheen, you see it. It's literally the same thing. It's just computing power that gives you access to another world. And he mentioned things that were absolutely impossible to knowLike what? One of the things that got... Two things really convinced me. One of them was in the interior of the craft. You had said to us it was very dark in there. And while Bob is explaining to us the, this interior of the craft, and many time he kept repeating, "It was really dark in there." Even though there were halogen lights in there. Right. And so at a certain point he says, "As I'm crawling in, there's like these extension cords." And I remember going, "Extension cords?" Like, I, it then hadn't computed. And he's like, "Yeah, they had lights in there." And I'm thinking, "It's true. I mean, w- there, there's no light switch inside this big th- it's 50, 52 feet. It's big." And so he said, "Yeah, there were two big industrial yellow c- uh, industrial lights with four spots each pointed up." And so we decided to make those. We decided to research the type that were used back then in the United States, especially on military bases. The halogen power, 'cause it was halogen in, in 1988. And we turned them on. And it was still dark. And it was super dark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember C- Christopher Matteau, by the way, a big shout-out to Christopher Matteau that's on my team, who made a lot of those visuals, and he's like a magician. He's, he's the best. He, he's there and I, I say, "Chris, turn on the lights, 'cause we have to sh- film in the craft." And he's like, "They're, they're on." I said, "They're not fucking on. I can't see anything." He's like, "They're fully on." And I said, "Well, that, that doesn't make any sense. It's so dark in there." Yeah. I remember thinking, "Shit, that's what- It consumes light in there. And so we upped the power of the light so that you could see more, and it was still dark. And I thought, "What the hell is happening?" I go, "Is there a bug? Is it, is there something wrong?" He goes, "No, I don't know. It's, it's, it's absorbing the light in there." We had to up the light intensity on those tripods by 20-fold in order for you to see the visuals you see in our film, otherwise it would be really dark in that craft. So how did you compute that? Like, what, what, what parameters did you establish? So what you do is you're, you're inside a 3D environment. You're an actual, a thre- you're in a 3D world. Now we're inside the craft that is 52 feet in diameter. It's, we bring a camera in there. So we were filming... The whole film was, was done with the m- uh, Blackmagic 6K cam. So we would bring our Blackmagics in the 3D environment. You can actually set that so that we could film inside the craft so it matches the filming of, of our real cameras. And so the ca- as soon as the camera's on, it's the same lens, it's the same aperture, everything is as you would have it. And so you're trying to adjust for this dark room. But if the room is really dark, you can't really get a good look at it, 'cause if you go close enough, all, you would've seen like a seat and a little bit of the reactor, but you would've been like, "What's the black screen I'm looking at?" So what is the explanation for why it's so dark? It's just the way the light reflects in there. And, and that is exactly... Yeah. Yeah. It's when you're in that space, exactly. Right, but, but here's the question. Like, what, what are you, when you're making this in a computer model- Right ... right, uh, what are you putting in that would make it absorb light that way? I didn't do that. So what we did is we spent over a year with Bob. I, I'm not, I'm not kidding. It was like a year of trying to figure out the material of the craft, the f- the actual skin of the craft. That was the hardest thing to do in order- The specularity and the reflectivity- Right ... of the actual material. When you see this. And the, the angle. Yeah. And then when the lights are in there, they just reflect at a weird angle. Yeah. And it never gets bright in there- Yes ... unless you have [laughs] you know, tremendous amounts of light in there. It's always dark. And, and w- sorry to interrupt, but that would've been... So when, when that happened, and we have the right material, which is like this, let's call it unpolished stainless steel. It's got a little bit of usage to it just to give it some texture. It's, it's as, it's got the same sheen, reflection, refractions of a real material like that, 'cause every time we put a fake light in there, okay, it's reacting like that. And now you turn these big halogen lights on and it's like the part of where the halogen is hitting the ceiling of the craft, 'cause they were turned upwards. Remember you- Yeah, yeah. Bob said they were not pointed like this. They were pointed to the ceiling of the craft. So you got two of them. It's like wherever the light was going was getting eaten up by that portion of the material. So it's not reflecting all the way. So you have a 52-foot distance and it's being lost in a maybe seven, eight-foot diameter environment, a- area where the light is. Yeah, it's unusual. And we're like, "Why is that happening?" But that's how it do- well, that's the reality. He could not have known that. If he, if he's trying to make that up, anybody who's inventing a story says there's two industrial light with four halo- bright halogen spots in there, a liar would not say it was really dark in there. It, y- y- you don't know that. You have to build it. Right. So to me, that was a physicality of the, being inside the craft that made me go, "Lazar could not have known that if he was making that up." You wouldn't know it until you experimented with it. Exactly. Right. So I'm like, unless Bob back then decided to go in, in his sh- garage, build himself a fake dome- [laughs] ... which I don't think he did, I'm like, how would he have known that? We didn't expect that. We were, we were struggling with why is it so dark in there? And you make films, so you're used to using lighting and cameras. Exactly. Yeah. And, and Chris was like, "Dude, this thing is just eating up the light." And I'm like, Bob kept saying it's so dark in there, and it just... H- how do you, how do you, how is that possible? What were the other things? The other oneI laugh about this with Bob all the time. It's about the flag on, on the craft, that you could have seen it.
- BLBob Lazar
I don't remember.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
So when he walked into the hangar the very first time, he saw, uh, uh, the, the very first time-
- BLBob Lazar
The backwards flag. Yeah
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
... he saw the craft and he saw the American, a reversed American flag sticker on the craft.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wonder why it was reversed.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
I- I'll, I'll get to that in a sec.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
I think I know, but I- whatever. I'll, I'll, I'll say what I think. And there's a lot of stuff, I researched a lot of stuff on Bob Lazar before I did this, and there's a lot of bad information out there. So I, I really, I, I really tell people, "If you really wanna see what he saw, don't go read what's out there. Check this out," 'cause Bob actually vetted everything, so it's not the wrong information to read. But anyway, there's a lot of detractors saying, "There's no way Lazar could have seen that flag. If the craft was that size and it was on the hull- on the sh- on the craft shell, there's no way. The angle, he's five something, he wouldn't have been able to see it." So we built it. We built a 52-foot diameter craft. We put it in the hangar. It's there. And my, my team, Chris gives me the goggles, the ones I made you try on, and it is the very first time I go in there, and I know the craft is there, so I put them on, and now they're, they're hoping, 'cause they're there with, with notes. They're hoping I'm giving them all the notes on, "No, that's not good. That's not good." And the first thing I did is I looked to my right and I'm looking at the craft. And I'm- I asked, uh, Chris to put me at 5'10", which is your height.
- BLBob Lazar
Mm-hmm.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
So I said, "At 5'10", I'm Bob's height with the goggles. I wanna see." And the first thing I said is, "Oh, it's, it, there it is." And they're like, "There what is?" I said, "The flag." And they thought I was pointing at a flag on a wall, and they're like, "There's no flag in the hangar." I said, "No, on the craft." And they're like, "Yeah?" I said, "You can clearly see it." It was clear. That was something that also made me go, "Yeah, this is, this is it. This is the real size." So had Bob Lazar not actually seen that, the majority of the, the detractors out there kept saying, "There's no way at that angle a, a human eye could see a sticker on the top of the craft," which is on the top shell.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
But you can. It's as clear as day.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
So those were two things that I considered to be like, you know, h- how, it, th- it's there. So I, I know to may- maybe some people that's not a lot, but as a person like I am, who's very technical and very, ve- I'm super difficult. It took a long time to do this 'cause I'm a perfectionist, and I wanted to make sure it was accurate to what he saw. I look at stuff like that because I analyze everything like that, and I analyzed his story inside out and-
- JRJoe Rogan
And if you couldn't see the flag from that position-
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
I would've been-
- JRJoe Rogan
... it would be a red-
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
I would've been-
- JRJoe Rogan
It would be a red flag
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
... a big f- yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
That would've been a red flag for me. I would've been like, "Wait, you can't see it." But you can. So you can't, you can't put, uh, enough of a value on little details like that because he didn't say this in 2026. He said this in 1989.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
I- I... Why?
- JRJoe Rogan
Why do you think the flag was reversed?
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
In American, uh, flag use law, the, the, the, the only thing we were able to ascertain is the fact that on military or on vehicles, anything military on a, on a uniform, if ever you see an American flag on your right shoulder, it's reversed because it's how the wind is blowing the flag. On your left side, it's like the flag is because the wind is blowing this way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- LVLuigi Vendittelli
If you look at vehicles, uh, let's say a Greyhound bus, they have American flags on each side, and they have a normal one on the left one, on the left side, and a reversed on the right side because it's the right side of the vehicle.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
Episode duration: 2:59:38
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Transcript of episode Lb_1d68vx-g
