Joe Rogan Experience #2496 - Julia Mossbridge

Joe Rogan 0:00 [upbeat music]

Joe Rogan 0:02 Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out.

Speaker 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music] Hello, Julia.

Julia Mossbridge 0:14 Hello, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Pleasure to meet you.

Julia Mossbridge 0:16 Yeah, I'm very excited.

Joe Rogan 0:17 So you said you had questions for me?

Julia Mossbridge 0:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:19 We can start with your questions.

Julia Mossbridge 0:20 Excellent. Um-

Joe Rogan 0:22 First of all, tell everybody what you do.

Julia Mossbridge 0:23 Okay. Let me just change the angle of this.

Joe Rogan 0:25 Just so f- folks just tuning in right now are gonna like, "Who is this young lady?"

Julia Mossbridge 0:29 [laughs] Thank you.

Joe Rogan 0:30 "What do you do?"

Julia Mossbridge 0:30 I'm a year younger than you. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 0:32 [laughs] There you go. Then you're young.

Julia Mossbridge 0:35 Nice. Um, what do I do? I am... As, I was trained as a scientist, cognitive neuroscience and computer science, and, uh, did some AI stuff, did some stuff with the human brain in terms of trying to understand how time works in the human brain. And then I got really interested in how funky time works in the human brain, like precognition-

Joe Rogan 0:58 Mm

Julia Mossbridge 0:58 ... which is, of course, predicting future events in ways that we don't normally think about.

Joe Rogan 1:03 That's how I found out about you, yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:04 That's you, is the Popular Mechanics article.

Joe Rogan 1:06 Yeah, believe so.

Julia Mossbridge 1:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07 And then a bunch of other stuff that I looked at.

Julia Mossbridge 1:09 And then a bunch of other stuff, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:10 And then I got interested in just the idea of exce- what we call exceptional human performance. So, um, I actually don't think it's that exceptional. I think people have these capacities, and they've been dampened down. And, uh, they're in us, and they can be developed, and some people have them just sort of naturally. I'm a person who has some of them just naturally, not all of them. But there are people all over who have these different gifts, and, and how does that work? And so that became a question that was interesting to me.

Joe Rogan 1:36 Well, it's always interesting when it's this, this question is asked by an actual scientist. So you approach it by let's, let's try to gather data. Let's try to find out what we can actually show. Because so many people have feelings that there's something else. Like there's, you have intuition, you have some sort of pre-knowledge of events and some feeling of something. You're thinking of someone and they call you. Is that real? You know, that, that kind of stuff has always puzzled people.

Julia Mossbridge 2:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:06 So it's always fascinating when someone like yourself actually spends a lot of time studying it and trying to gather data, and trying to show what's real and what's not, and what you can actually show.

Julia Mossbridge 2:17 I agree it's fascinating. I'm not sure it matters. So I mean [laughs] my experience has been that, um, sort of regardless of how much time I spend studying it, and how much I see it, and how much I can test different controls to make sure it's not this, that, or the other thing, and that it really is getting information from the future, or it really is telepathy, um, people still kind of don't, uh, in the science world, tend to just ignore it. Or it actually is actively suppressed. I mean, there are some papers that I've published that just won't get listed in Google Scholar even though they're in peer review journals with other articles that do get listed in Google Scholar. So there's... It's, it's frustrating, and who cares, 'cause it's just an academic complaining. But I'm also not an academic. I also wanna build things. I'm into making stuff. So I got my PhD at these tier one research institutions like Northwestern. Got my master's at UC San Francisco. I did my postdoc at Northwestern, so fancy dancy institutions. Um, so I learned a lot about how to, how to think and how to write and how to do these kind of experiments, and I know what I'm seeing, and I keep seeing it. And other people who study the same stuff keep seeing it. But it is, um, it is inside of me, or there's something inside [laughs] of me that wants to create things with this. Okay, so this is happening. People have these capacities. You know, they're actually useful. What can we do with them? And it turns out you can do a lot with them if you feel like you are allowed to have them, if it doesn't feel like it's verboten.

Joe Rogan 3:52 Mm.

Julia Mossbridge 3:52 If it doesn't feel, like, shameful, which is part of the cultural case.

Joe Rogan 3:55 Or foolish.

Julia Mossbridge 3:56 Or foolish, which is part of the questions I wanted to ask you.

Joe Rogan 3:58 Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 4:00 So what I notice when you talk with people is you're, [laughs] you're like a, you seem like a tough guy, but you're really sensitive. Like you're an incredible, obviously an incredible listener. And you learn all these things, and you're putting together... Uh, just this is my impression. You're putting together a, um, kind of a map of the world, of like a map of knowledge of the world, through all these different people's eyes. And my question for you is, how do you see culture shifting? Because I think you're really sensitive to it, and I think you're kind of like one of these signal fish that are at the... You notice what's happening in the environment, and you're gonna guide a school of fish accordingly. So do you think that the culture is shifting towards sort of better use of these, I, I guess exceptional or these natural capacities that we already have? Or do you think they're, we're shifting away from it, and we're gonna run away in fear?

Joe Rogan 5:06 Hmm. That's a good question. Okay, so I think that because of conversations like the ones that you've had and the ones that I've had, the ones that are available online, I think people get a much deeper understanding of so many different topics and so many different things than has ever been available through whatever you wanna call the mainstream media. And when you have these inherent prejudices in, uh, higher learning, w- whether it's people that don't j- don't wanna be foolish, so they don't wanna entertain certain notions, or they don't want to accept certain things because it goes against things that they've taught and things they've wrote about, we have a problem of ego, and ego becoming a wall to gathering more information or getting a better detailed map of the landscape. And I think, uh, there's way more people that, um, arepondering these ideas and having these conversations and thinking about these things than has ever been before. And, uh, I think that's one of the really beautiful things about the internet. The internet has made much more information available, and many more people are thinking about these things in ways that, you know, if you were in, uh, an environment where your career depended upon you following certain lines and certain narratives, you wouldn't pursue that 'cause that would be detrimental to your own personal interest. Like if you wanted to get ahead in academia, and all of a sudden you're talking about psychics and premonition, and, you know, people are like, "Oh, Julia's a fucking loon." Like, why... You know? But you're courageous, and you see value in these things. And because you can come on here and talk about it instead of just addressing a class or selling a book that's gonna reach a few thousand people, y- we can have a conversation where 10 million people are gonna listen. And so then t- those 10 million people are gonna go to work, and they're gonna tell their friends at work like, "Hey, there's this... You know, you know how that feeling that you get where sometimes you know something's gonna happen and it happens? Like that might be real. And th- there was this lady, she was on The Joe Rogan podcast, and she was talk-" And so that opens up people to this idea that you don't have to worry about being a fool, because that's what a lot of people are worried about. It's wh- th- it was a big hurdle w- talking about aliens, UFOs. Like a- all my life, all my life, I've always been fascinated by UFOs and aliens. But I don't mind being a fool. Like I, I was fascinated by Bigfoot forever. Kind of abandoned that for the most part. But I like weird stuff. I'm interested in it, and I don't... I'm not a person that needs to be taken seriously. It's not my job. I'm literally a comedian. Like you can make fun of me, I'll make fun of me, it's fine. I don't h- it doesn't, my, my future doesn't rely on people taking me seriously. So I think [clears throat] having that ability to have conversations about all kinds of different things has really changed the way the entire world is discussing just reality. Like every- everything about reality, from quantum computing to alien life, to international politics, to the way human beings misrepresent each other purposefully for their own gains. Like what is all this? Like, and why, w- why has it taken so long to have so many discussions about this? S- so I think that's, if I have a purpose in this world, it's like I'm an antenna for that.

Julia Mossbridge 8:59 Yeah. I to- I'm just clapping 'cause- [laughs]

Joe Rogan 9:01 Oh, right

Julia Mossbridge 9:01 ... it's such a great purpose because, you know, the reason I fell in love with science was it's about discovery. It's about not knowing.

Joe Rogan 9:09 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 9:10 It's about being foolish. I had this... Um, I was just thinking today, I had this amazing high school, uh, bio- biology teacher who had us go outside, and he gave us these little note cards, and he said, "On one side of the note card, I want you to write a question about your environment. Look around, you know, at the plants or whatever, pick something, the dirt, whatever, and write a question you think Einstein would ask about this." And then he said, "Okay, now flip it over, and I want you to write a question that like a two-year-old would ask if a two-year-old could, you know, write." And my favorite side was the two-year-old, and at the end he said, "Now, Einstein was more like the two-year-old."

Joe Rogan 9:44 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 9:44 He said, "Einstein was full of wonder and confusion and, um, uncertainty, and he just asked questions and imagined things, and that's how I want you all to learn to be." And I was just like, "Yes." [laughs]

Joe Rogan 9:57 Hmm. That's a good teacher.

Julia Mossbridge 9:58 That was an amazing teacher. And, and so then I, then I went to graduate school, and I went in the world of academia, and I was like, there's all this pressure to, um, you know, you write your grant, uh, after you're, you've done about three quarters of the work so that as soon as you get the grant, then you can publish the papers that go with the grant. So you're not really discovering anything, you're kind of talking about, "Here's what I already know, but I'm acting like I haven't looked at it yet," or... And there's pressure to, um, follow, as you said, follow the line of thinking, um, for both funding and for your career.

Joe Rogan 10:31 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 10:31 And, you know, I was told very nicely by wonderful people who wanted to support me, um, that if I took the stuff about psychic stuff off my resume, I would have a perfectly good resume for academia. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 10:43 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 10:43 And I was like, "Are you crazy? This is the stuff that's actually interesting. Why would I wanna take it off?"

Joe Rogan 10:49 Ah.

Julia Mossbridge 10:49 But that's what took me away from academia and made me realize I ha- I had to put one foot in building things, and I could leave a foot in academia, but I had to, I had to build shit because, um, academia is so slow. They can learn something, and then 10 years later they're like, "Do you think it's true?" And then 20 years later they're like, "Maybe we can make something with it." And it's like, "Yeah." But at the same time, you have to be careful. You don't get to just say, "Well, I just know people are psychic and therefore, you know-"

Joe Rogan 11:15 Right

Julia Mossbridge 11:15 ..."screw it." So, um, so yeah, there's this dance. There's this dance there. But, uh, when you, you were saying this thing about the f- people afraid to be foolish.

Joe Rogan 11:26 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 11:27 I won- I wonder how much it helps me to come from a family of very foolish, eccentric people.

Joe Rogan 11:34 I'm sure it helps a lot.

Julia Mossbridge 11:35 [laughs] 'Cause I'm not afraid to be foolish.

Joe Rogan 11:37 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 11:37 In fact, I just know that I am. [laughs] And so-

Joe Rogan 11:39 Well, I think intelligent, kind people don't mind talking to people that say s- occasionally say foolish things.

Julia Mossbridge 11:48 Well-

Joe Rogan 11:49 Or things that could be perceived as foolish, because they're willing to take chances and look at these obscure topics and strange phenomenon and just, and not, not worry about the stigma that's attached to these subjects that keeps supposedly intelligent or serious people, people that wanna be considered as serious people-

Julia Mossbridge 12:10 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 12:10 ... from discussing.

Julia Mossbridge 12:11 Well, like when you said the thing about, um, Bigfoot

Joe Rogan 12:15 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 12:15 And, and I laughed a little bit.

Joe Rogan 12:17 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 12:17 That was, that was like a reflex laugh from academia. So that's-

Joe Rogan 12:20 Well, it's a fun one.

Julia Mossbridge 12:21 Well-

Joe Rogan 12:21 Bigfoot's a fun one

Julia Mossbridge 12:22 ... it is, and I have friends who study Bigfoot and other cryptids and-

Joe Rogan 12:26 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 12:26 ... and in a, in a scholarly way.

Joe Rogan 12:28 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 12:28 And, and I had to learn not to laugh. Like, it's like we have our little discomfort-

Joe Rogan 12:34 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 12:34 ... and then we laugh 'cause, oh, I would, I wanna be taken seriously and stuff. But you know, interestingly, the UFO whole world got accepted into the mainstream land of things that possibly exist before the psychic world. But the psychic world has been studied, like, by the intelligence community, et cetera, since, openly, since, like, the '50s.

Joe Rogan 12:55 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 12:56 Whereas the UFO world was supposed to be, oh, we don't care about that, and then only recently has come to the fore. So it's really interesting to see this balance. They're both related, and, and they both have their own processes of disclosure. But, um, it's just interesting, culturally it's interesting to see this instinct to be right as-

Joe Rogan 13:14 Yes

Julia Mossbridge 13:14 ... as you called it. And I feel like that's... I was [laughs] there's the PBS, um, convention is in town right now in the hotel where I'm staying, and I, and I, I, I gotta say, I think that's still largely a very left-leaning organization, and I was raised up in a really left-leaning household, but the thing that really pisses me off about the left is this wanting to be smart and sh- and this proving that you're smart, and the thing that pisses me off about the right is wanting to be right, and I feel like both of those things fail.

Joe Rogan 13:49 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 13:50 I mean, neither of them allows us to just discover, okay, what's next? Like, how can we actually-

Joe Rogan 13:55 Right

Julia Mossbridge 13:55 ... how can we actually solve the problems that are going on, instead of just wanting our team to win?

Joe Rogan 14:00 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 14:00 Or... And so, uh, it's interesting to me how the cultural change with science also relates to our politics.

Joe Rogan 14:08 Yeah. I grew up in a very left-leaning household as well. My parents are still very left. And, um, I think that there is a real problem with ideologies where, especially in this country, we're so polarized, we have a right and a left, and I think most people are kind of in the middle somewhere. You know, and I'm, I'm certainly in the middle. I'm, I'm probably, like, middle left. That's where I, I kind of see myself. But if you, like, read about me, I'm, like, far right somehow or another, which is probably weird.

Julia Mossbridge 14:36 No, I know. It's interest- I, I, I'm, I'm now independent. I'm officially independent-

Joe Rogan 14:40 Wow

Julia Mossbridge 14:40 ... 'cause I'm like, "Screw it."

Joe Rogan 14:42 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 14:42 I, I don't... I do think most people are in the center, and I think we need to, um, get clarity on that you get to, you get to say something that's different from what either side is saying.

Joe Rogan 14:53 Yeah, the problem with e- either side is you have to, uh, accept, if you're gonna accept, if you're gonna join one of their team... I had a bit about it in my last comedy special, that if you're gonna join their team, you have to believe all the things.

Julia Mossbridge 15:06 [laughs] Yeah. Right. And you have to kind of display them, perform it-

Joe Rogan 15:09 Yes

Julia Mossbridge 15:09 ... like you're performing.

Joe Rogan 15:11 Very good point.

Julia Mossbridge 15:11 Right?

Joe Rogan 15:11 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 15:12 You have to, you have to say all the right words.

Joe Rogan 15:13 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 15:13 And if you say the wrong words, you're canceled, and that happens on both sides.

Joe Rogan 15:17 100%.

Julia Mossbridge 15:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:18 And you know, the right was always complaining about the left doing it, but now the right's doing it. They're canceling each other about all kinds of stupid things, and it's just a, it is a, it's... You know, Mark Andreessen's talked about this, that they display all of the behavior that you get from cults.

Julia Mossbridge 15:33 Yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 15:34 It's the same thing.

Julia Mossbridge 15:35 Totally.

Joe Rogan 15:35 Excommunication. Yeah. E- extreme following of doctrine with no deviation whatsoever. Everyone's very performative that they are more in line with the doctrine than you are. Ew.

Julia Mossbridge 15:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:50 Ew.

Julia Mossbridge 15:50 And by the way-

Joe Rogan 15:51 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 15:51 ... academia is a lot like that.

Joe Rogan 15:52 Oh, it's very much like that.

Julia Mossbridge 15:54 When I, when I-

Joe Rogan 15:54 That's very disturbing.

Julia Mossbridge 15:55 Ugh. It is disturbing.

Joe Rogan 15:56 You know?

Julia Mossbridge 15:56 Because these people, you're supposed to be open-minded-

Joe Rogan 15:59 Yes

Julia Mossbridge 15:59 ... because how are you gonna get to tru- I mean, the idea is to get to truth, right?

Joe Rogan 16:02 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 16:02 How are you gonna get to truth if, if you've decided, well, that person's asking this question, and that's an inappropriate question?

Joe Rogan 16:08 Yes. Yeah, and it's also, there's this thing about people being gatekeepers of information. So, like, if you're an expert in a very particular subject, and someone disagrees with that, people are like, "I am a PhD in this subject, and let me tell you about this," and, "I know what's going on."

Julia Mossbridge 16:24 I hate that.

Joe Rogan 16:25 Yeah. It's crazy.

Julia Mossbridge 16:26 It's so irritating, and actually that bothers me when I go on shows and people say, "Oh, but you're a scientist and you study this," and it's like, yeah, but could we not revere me for that reason? Could we instead ask the question, like, does she do good work?

Joe Rogan 16:37 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 16:37 Does she have interesting thoughts? You know, does this seem reasonable? Does it seem like she's after the, you know, moving towards the good? Those are really the standards-

Joe Rogan 16:46 Yes

Julia Mossbridge 16:46 ... regardless of your degree. And so I, it worries me that we put so much reverence in scientists or whatever, or experts. And I also see that there can be this problem where you go, "Oh, experts are all full of shit," and then, you know, you have to get, like, brain surgery, and you're like, "I would like a really good neurosurgeon." [laughs]

Joe Rogan 17:05 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 17:06 So there's kind of both.

Joe Rogan 17:07 Yes. Oh, 100% there's both. I think the problem is human ego, and the problem is that even people that have, like, deeply studied subjects, the wanting the reverence and wanting people to defer to you wholly with no questions whatsoever, like as if you have the entire database on whatever this thing... This thing is settled. This is settled science. We know everything about it, and that doesn't seem to be the case very often. There's very few things that seem to be completely settled, and it's much more interesting to me when I talk to someone that their perspective is, "I'm a person that has spent an inordinate amount of time going over this stuff, and this is what I know. I might not know all of it, but this, this is, this is what we know, and this is why we think this is what it is, and this is..." So instead of, like, having this ego, and I see it, oh God, I see it from so many... It's a very male thing too. It's a very male ego thing to be, like, the, you know, the, the dominant force of the narrative. You know? That they're the enforcer of the narrative and, you know, v- very dismissive and very rude and saying, you know, justInsulting things about anybody that deviates from it instead of just saying, "This is why I think this is the case, and this is what we've learned over the years, and this is..." And but having humility when you're dealing with, especially when you're dealing with something like cognitive, l- like, a- anything i- involving consciousness, anything involving the human mind, it's so complex. There's so much going on, and it's so biologically variable. There's so many different people that have different ways of thinking, and their mind works differently. One, one of the m- more illuminating things about doing this pod- this podcast is having so many different people in here, and so many different conversa- and so many unique and fascinating people, but they're all different.

Julia Mossbridge 19:10 Yeah. Yeah. You're t- you're like, you're like tasting from all the different-

Joe Rogan 19:15 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 19:15 ... flavors of humanity, and, and it's a delight to listen to, but I, uh, I, I sort of wanna know what it's like to be in your brain as you start to so- it's like you're a sponge, and you're soaking in all these points of view. So the model that you're building, I just, I wonder a lot about what it's like to be different people. And the, and imagine the model that you're building of the world is really well informed. Hey, Jamie, could you turn down my, um-

Joe Rogan 19:36 Oh, you can do it.

Speaker 19:37 Is that-

Joe Rogan 19:37 There's a little thing right there.

Julia Mossbridge 19:40 Oh.

Joe Rogan 19:40 Oh.

Julia Mossbridge 19:41 Oh.

Joe Rogan 19:41 We're like professionals. [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 19:42 It's like you have a whole show. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 19:45 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 19:45 Um, but yeah, I, I, I think the model that you're building could be put to some really powerful use, so I'm here to convince you to run for president. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 19:54 Oh, God. Trying to get me killed, Julia? How dare you? No, I'm not interested in any job of, in any government whatsoever.

Julia Mossbridge 20:01 I'm, I'm, well, here's-

Joe Rogan 20:02 I like doing this.

Julia Mossbridge 20:03 Okay, I get it.

Joe Rogan 20:04 That's it.

Julia Mossbridge 20:04 But what you said about it's a really male thing, I think it's better said to say, um, it's a really, um, insecure male thing. Or-

Joe Rogan 20:13 Yes

Julia Mossbridge 20:13 ... an insecure, it's an insecurity thing that happens more probably to men because there's such a standard of you're supposed to be alpha. Everyone's supposed to be alpha.

Joe Rogan 20:20 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 20:21 And for women, there's not that standard, or you're not, you know.

Joe Rogan 20:24 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 20:24 And so there's more insecurity 'cause everyone can't be alpha. And what the heck is alpha? And so I feel like I, I, I have a desire for someone who has a sense of their own, like a secure in their own masculinity and their own femininity, which I think you have both. I hope you don't mind me calling you out on that, but- [laughs]

Joe Rogan 20:47 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 20:47 I, [laughs] I know that you like have this reputation of being like a total guy guy, but you have this, I mean, because you're a deep listener, that's already a feminine trait. And so-

Joe Rogan 20:58 Is it really?

Julia Mossbridge 20:58 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:00 Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 21:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:01 I didn't know that. I never thought of listening as being masculine or feminine.

Julia Mossbridge 21:05 Listening is a deeply feminine trait because you have to be relatively humble to want to listen.

Joe Rogan 21:10 And humility is a feminine trait?

Julia Mossbridge 21:13 Oh, no, it's just I, I don't, I don't think of it as a feminine trait.

Joe Rogan 21:15 Yeah, I don't think listening is a feminine trait.

Julia Mossbridge 21:18 Yeah, maybe I'm wrong.

Joe Rogan 21:19 I think it's a kind-

Julia Mossbridge 21:20 Women are generally better listeners. I mean, that's a-

Joe Rogan 21:22 Really?

Julia Mossbridge 21:23 Yeah. [laughs] Well, it depends on if you're in a relationship with them or not. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 21:26 Depends on who you're talking to. [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 21:29 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 21:29 I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's true.

Julia Mossbridge 21:32 Let me see where I'm gonna get in that. Where-

Joe Rogan 21:33 I think curious people, genuinely curious people are better listeners. That's what I think.

Julia Mossbridge 21:38 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:38 And I don't think women or men are genuinely mo- cur- more curious.

Julia Mossbridge 21:43 You're right, and I think that there's a thing, if you're always trying to prove that you're alpha, and I think men are more susceptible to that-

Joe Rogan 21:52 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 21:52 ... where you could not be a good listener 'cause you wanna make sure you say the right thing.

Joe Rogan 21:56 That's an insecurity thing.

Julia Mossbridge 21:57 And then I think there's-

Joe Rogan 21:58 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 21:58 ... more insecurity among men because of those standards that are ridiculous. And so maybe that's what I'm talking about. But you're definitely right.

Joe Rogan 22:05 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 22:05 I can definitely think of men and women who are both crappy listeners and good listeners.

Joe Rogan 22:10 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 22:10 So it's about the insecurity.

Joe Rogan 22:11 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 22:12 It's about the emotional maturity.

Joe Rogan 22:13 I think it's also a learned thing that, you know, people have this desire to show everyone how intelligent they are and how dominant they are in any particular subject, and it's one of the most infuriating things about having conversations where people aren't really talking to you. They're just trying to win whatever little verbal game-

Julia Mossbridge 22:33 Yeah

Joe Rogan 22:33 ... you're playing.

Julia Mossbridge 22:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:35 They're trying to one-up you, and they're trying to like-

Julia Mossbridge 22:37 I've seen that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:38 Yeah, it's, it's gross. It's-

Julia Mossbridge 22:40 And also just, like, it, it makes you wanna leave.

Joe Rogan 22:42 Yeah, it's not fun.

Julia Mossbridge 22:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:43 It's not a fun conversation.

Julia Mossbridge 22:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:44 Like, I love talking to people way smarter than me.

Julia Mossbridge 22:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:47 It's fun.

Julia Mossbridge 22:48 Me too.

Joe Rogan 22:48 Like, I don't need, like, I can't be the smartest per- I'm friends with Elon.

Julia Mossbridge 22:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:52 I'm definitely not the smartest person. [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 22:54 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 22:54 I know that. I'm friends with a lot of people that are fucking way smarter than me. So I'm just curious, and I, I think, uh, the world would be a lot better place if more people were curious. And if you-

Julia Mossbridge 23:06 But how, how-

Joe Rogan 23:06 ... embraced it and not, and just squashed that s- that, that insecurity that makes you wanna, like, puff your chest up and-

Julia Mossbridge 23:15 See, I don't think you can squash it. Like, I get, I also think the world would be a better place if more people were curious, but I think the solution is, I don't think any, squashing anything works. Like, I, I think, I think you have to work through it.

Joe Rogan 23:29 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 23:29 But-

Joe Rogan 23:29 That's a better way to say it-

Julia Mossbridge 23:31 Yeah. I don't-

Joe Rogan 23:31 ... than squashing it, right?

Julia Mossbridge 23:32 Squashing it just means it's gonna come up later as garbage.

Joe Rogan 23:35 Right. Yeah, that's, yeah, no, you said it better. Yeah. It's really just addressing why you're insecure, and for a lot of men, um, there's, there's just physical insecurity.

Julia Mossbridge 23:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:46 And the physical insecurity's a real problem. But some of my favorite people are martial artists, and one of the reasons why is 'cause they're the least insecure. Everyone's insecure in some way, but martial artists are dealing with that insecurity literally on a daily basis. So, like, say jujitsu, for instance. If you're training jujitsu, if you go from white belt to black belt, you have to get humiliated thousands of times. [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 24:13 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 24:13 You have to get... There's no if, ands, or buts about it. There's, if you're a white belt and you train with a black belt, you're gonna get humiliated. You're, or dominated. You're gonna lose. You have no chance.

Julia Mossbridge 24:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:24 And so by learning over and over and over and over again that you're not really special, and it's really just about the time you put in, and then about getting better, and having, uh, the ability to objectively assess your position, who you are in this, this room of people that are trying to strangle each other, who you are in the world itself.And I think a lot of people don't ever address that, and so they run around trying to posture and pretend they're something they're not, pretend they're smarter than they are, they're more of an expert in a subject. They're the one who should talk. You should listen. You know, there's a lot of that where whenever people say, "Just shut up and listen," I'm like, "That's not... I'm not going to do that, and I don't wanna talk to anybody who wants that-"

Julia Mossbridge 25:08 Well, then you also-

Joe Rogan 25:08 "... and I don't ever want anybody to do that if I'm talking."

Julia Mossbridge 25:10 Well, yeah, because then you're not having a conversation.

Joe Rogan 25:13 Exactly.

Julia Mossbridge 25:13 That person doesn't exist.

Joe Rogan 25:14 Exactly.

Julia Mossbridge 25:14 You've just decided that person doesn't exist-

Joe Rogan 25:16 Yeah, you-

Julia Mossbridge 25:16 ... or they don't matter

Joe Rogan 25:17 ... you just- you've d- asserted dominance in the dumbest way possible, which is intellectual.

Julia Mossbridge 25:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:22 Like, y- y- it-

Julia Mossbridge 25:23 Yes

Joe Rogan 25:23 ... if you... It's like-

Julia Mossbridge 25:24 That is the dumbest way possible.

Joe Rogan 25:26 Sure.

Julia Mossbridge 25:26 And, and the funny thing is culturally we kind of think that it's the smartest way possible.

Joe Rogan 25:31 Well, it's just a bunch of fools.

Julia Mossbridge 25:32 Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what, what, so-

Joe Rogan 25:34 Fools with a lot of information. [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 25:35 Okay, but let's talk about what, what a better world would be. So in a, in a better world-

Joe Rogan 25:41 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 25:41 ... in a better world, if you're gonna assert dominance, you would, like the martial art- what I love about martial art is it- first of all, it's, it's all mental. Almost all mental. And then second, it's very similar to what happens when you go through and get your PhD, right? [laughs] You get beaten down.

Joe Rogan 25:57 Mm.

Julia Mossbridge 25:58 And you realize you're not the smartest person in the room.

Joe Rogan 26:00 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 26:00 And you're hanging out with all these other super smart people, and then you've gotta learn to be like, "Okay, that's not what matters." So that's the good part of, of going nuts with school. But, but there's this, um, false information that it reminds me of when I was at UCSF and I went to go see this talk by this s- famous scientist. I think he won a Nobel Prize. Forget his name.

Joe Rogan 26:23 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 26:23 But he was an asshole. And he gave his brilliant talk, but I couldn't pay attention to it because he was an asshole. He was being rude to people who asked questions. He was just dickish. I mean, I, I don't know how else to say it.

Joe Rogan 26:36 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 26:36 Just, like, arrogant.

Joe Rogan 26:38 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 26:38 And I walked out and someone said to me, one of my mentors said to me, "You know, you have to s- learn to separate the personality from the information that they're, that they're giving." And I said, "You know, no, I don't. Like, he's giving me all the information in his personality."

Joe Rogan 26:54 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 26:54 Right? I don't need to learn to listen to that. I need to learn to say, unlike all of you all, [laughs] I need to learn to say, "I'm not gonna hang out with people and put myself in the presence of people who are rude like that." That's more important than their amazing intellect. And I somehow, somehow we got to a place culturally where we think you can be really m- mean or dismissive or rude and arrogant, and that's fine because you're winning. And I feel like a better world would acknowledge that what's more important is, oh, love-

Joe Rogan 27:35 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 27:36 ... which is this connection where you actually acknowledge there's someone else there, even if you, like, think they're an asshole. But still [laughs] -

Joe Rogan 27:43 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 27:43 ... you know, like I wasn't practicing love. I wasn't accepting him, who he was, but I was in a place where the environment wanted me to just ignore sort of the information I was getting about who this guy was and just say, "No, all that matters is his intelligence."

Joe Rogan 27:58 Yeah. Though sometimes you can learn a lot from people that are gross.

Julia Mossbridge 28:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:04 You know? And i- it's valuable to be able to put their personality aside and listen to the a- actual information, but still-

Julia Mossbridge 28:12 In that moment, though, I was a-

Joe Rogan 28:13 ... you don't want to. Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 28:15 Well, in that moment, in that moment I was, like, 24, and I was a woman in a field where there are a lot of guys, and I was feeling like I have to have boundaries, you know?

Joe Rogan 28:28 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 28:28 I have to learn to have boundaries, and then later when I'm, you know, like now I'm post-menopausal, and you know how post-menopausal women are, we have much more confidence. [laughs] But-

Joe Rogan 28:38 You're not playing that game anymore.

Julia Mossbridge 28:40 Yeah, no.

Joe Rogan 28:41 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 28:41 Right. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 28:42 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 28:42 It's just like now I'm like, I can listen to, you know-

Joe Rogan 28:45 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 28:45 ... some asshole, listen to what he- he's saying. But at the time it's like, no, like, I have to stand up for something that I think is important.

Joe Rogan 28:51 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 28:51 You know? I, I'm not saying I'm better than. I'm saying I had that experience that made me see that there was this level of, like, sort of import placed on the intellect, and that had always been the case. My family had always placed all this level of import on the intellect, and I just kind of walked out of that.

Joe Rogan 29:12 Well, it has to be balanced. Like, I think putting all of the emphasis on the intellect itself and ignoring the personality is kind of... Like, the messenger's important. Like, the message is important, but the, the messenger sucks that, that, you know, if, if someone was yelling out the most amazing information in the world, but they were singing it like a Slayer song, I don't know, s- it's a bad example.

Julia Mossbridge 29:39 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 29:39 But you know what I mean? Like, you know those death metal bands where they just scream?

Julia Mossbridge 29:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:43 And you're like, "Oh, geez. I gotta get out of here." It's not my thing, right?

Julia Mossbridge 29:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:46 But it could be, like, the most intrest- interesting information, but the messenger sucks.

Julia Mossbridge 29:51 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:51 It's not fun to listen to.

Julia Mossbridge 29:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:52 It's not exciting.

Julia Mossbridge 29:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:53 Or the messenger's arrogant, or the messenger's rude, or... It ruins the message.

Julia Mossbridge 29:59 Yeah, you need both.

Joe Rogan 30:00 Human beings need to communicate, and in order to communicate, we need to, we need to establish that we're just two people, you know? And if you have some information that I don't have, I wanna hear it. I don't wanna like, "Oh, she's saying too many smart things. I wanna say something smart to show I'm smarter than her."

Julia Mossbridge 30:16 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 30:16 Well, hold on there.

Julia Mossbridge 30:17 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 30:18 You know, there's a lot of that, and that's a lot of that in academia because that is their entire identity.

Julia Mossbridge 30:23 It's a chess game.

Joe Rogan 30:24 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 30:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:25 But it's a chess game with pieces that are stunted. Like, they're not allowed to freely move.

Julia Mossbridge 30:30 No kidding. Yeah, it is a cult. I mean, that's the cult part.

Joe Rogan 30:33 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 30:33 That's where y- you leave and people feel sorry for you.

Joe Rogan 30:36 But it's-

Julia Mossbridge 30:36 And you're like, "I have my freedom. I'm so excited," and they're like, "I'm so sorry for you."

Joe Rogan 30:41 Yeah, it's, it's social hierarchies. It's gross.

Julia Mossbridge 30:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:43 And, you know, I mean, I think that's going to exist w- whenever there's ego or whenever there's these, the human dynamics of these-... bizarre creatures that we are. We're the, we're territorial apes with weapons. You know, like, we're weird, and we're always establishing some kind of dominance, whether it's intellectual dominance or wealth dominance or social hierarchy dominance. Like, people love that stuff. They love it.

Julia Mossbridge 31:12 Is it, it, do we, or, so I-

Joe Rogan 31:15 They love to play it. They love to pretend it's-

Julia Mossbridge 31:17 We love to pretend it, but do, I mean, do we really?

Joe Rogan 31:20 Well, that's why people name drop. That's why people wanna have the, the fanciest cars and the nicest watches and the biggest houses and-

Julia Mossbridge 31:26 I know, but is that really making them happy?

Joe Rogan 31:28 No, it's not.

Julia Mossbridge 31:29 N-

Joe Rogan 31:29 No

Julia Mossbridge 31:29 ... so I don't know that people love it. I think people do it 'cause they think it's gonna make them happy. But I don't think they love it.

Joe Rogan 31:34 Yeah. There's something to that. There's, I, there's probably something that some sociopaths feel if they show up with a million dollar watch and a, a million dollar car, and they, you know, pull up in front of a giant house that's bigger than anybody's, like, "Wow."

Julia Mossbridge 31:47 Sure.

Joe Rogan 31:48 "Look at me. I did it." But I think, yeah, what, what is-

Julia Mossbridge 31:50 But that's rare. I think that's rare.

Joe Rogan 31:52 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 31:52 I think-

Joe Rogan 31:52 Oh, but I think it's un- not lasting either. And then there's also a bunch of people that are on fucking pills, so I don't even, they don't even know what they like.

Julia Mossbridge 31:58 It, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:58 They're just running around in the, the f- the fog of pharmaceutical cloud.

Julia Mossbridge 32:01 But that's the way they're dealing with it. So it's like-

Joe Rogan 32:04 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 32:04 ... like, I guess if we see it as like there's this big problem, which is that, I call this the human problem, no one knows how to be with themselves or others in any kind of harmony. Like [laughs] -

Joe Rogan 32:14 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 32:14 Like this-

Joe Rogan 32:14 Harmony

Julia Mossbridge 32:15 ... this is-

Joe Rogan 32:16 That's a good word

Julia Mossbridge 32:16 ... we don't know how to get to harmony.

Joe Rogan 32:18 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 32:18 Right? And so-

Joe Rogan 32:19 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 32:20 ... one way is for drugs, and one way is prayer, and one way is the big car and the dominance, and one way is, you know, being addicted to your phone. I mean, w- you know, none of them work.

Joe Rogan 32:33 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 32:34 But all of, I mean, that's not true. I think prayer works. But, but I think the only one that works is love, and I think that's what prayer is about. But, um, earnest prayer. But we have to try. I mean, we're built to try to get to harmony, apparently, because we keep trying. And so part of me wants to say, I'm of two minds. Part of me just says, like, "We're trying the best we can, and we have all these faults." And then there's a part of me that says, "And we can do better."

Joe Rogan 33:04 Well, we definitely can, and I think that's one of the reasons why people hunger for conversations.

Julia Mossbridge 33:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:08 'Cause we're all trying to figure out how to do better.

Julia Mossbridge 33:10 Yeah. We-

Joe Rogan 33:10 With, the, the human mind is m- one of the most extraordinary things that's ever been studied, and yet there's no guidebook on how to use it.

Julia Mossbridge 33:18 Because we still don't know. Do you know how much we don't know? We know about, as much about the human mind now as we knew in 1991 when I first went to graduate school. I mean, in neuroscience. I mean, the brain, we know a lot more about the brain. We still don't know that much about it. We're still missing some basic pieces of, like, things like, what's the neural code? How do [laughs] these neurons actually communicate? And how do we actually-

Joe Rogan 33:41 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 33:41 ... learn? How do we actually represent things in memory? But, but we know more. But in terms of the mind, wow, we're just beginning. I mean, I, I guess I'm differentiating the brain and the mind. Like, the brain is this, like, physical chunk of stuff-

Joe Rogan 33:55 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 33:56 ... that's related to the mind, but the mind is what we are doing.

Joe Rogan 34:00 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 34:00 Well, the m- thinking, feeling, emoting, wondering, all that stuff is mind stuff, and that's super mysterious.

Joe Rogan 34:10 And super difficult to manage for almost everybody.

Julia Mossbridge 34:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:14 And again, no guidebook.

Julia Mossbridge 34:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:16 Like, you're, you're giving the most complex instrument known to man-

Julia Mossbridge 34:20 Yeah

Joe Rogan 34:20 ... which is the human mind.

Julia Mossbridge 34:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:21 And everybody's like, "Figure it out."

Julia Mossbridge 34:23 [laughs] I know.

Joe Rogan 34:23 And you're like, "Fuck, maybe I'll become a Moonie."

Julia Mossbridge 34:25 Have you ever s-

Joe Rogan 34:26 "May- maybe I'll go into Scientology. Man, what do I do? I have to do something. I have to do some," uh, someone el- knows, "I know."

Julia Mossbridge 34:31 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 34:31 "I'm the one who knows. Follow that guy."

Julia Mossbridge 34:34 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 34:34 You know? It's like [laughs] that's what we do.

Julia Mossbridge 34:35 Do these 10 things, and you'll be okay.

Joe Rogan 34:37 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 34:37 Okay.

Joe Rogan 34:37 That's how cults get started.

Julia Mossbridge 34:38 I'll, I'll do those 10 things because we're so [laughs] nervous.

Joe Rogan 34:40 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 34:40 We can't figure it out.

Joe Rogan 34:41 Exactly.

Julia Mossbridge 34:42 Yeah, yeah. Um, have you ever seen a baby be born?

Joe Rogan 34:46 Sure. Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 34:47 Y- yeah, so, so have I, my own, but also I was a doula for a couple friends who were-

Joe Rogan 34:52 Oh, wow

Julia Mossbridge 34:52 ... having babies, and, you know, th- it, everyone should just see a baby be born [laughs] because-

Joe Rogan 34:57 It's very psychedelic

Julia Mossbridge 34:58 ... it's psychedelic, and it's-

Joe Rogan 34:59 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 34:59 ... also, it just, it's, it puts you in that liminal space where, um, it's like you've seen beyond the veil. You've seen the, the borderland between life and death.

Joe Rogan 35:08 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 35:08 And it feels to me like that experience, which is m- much more rare for people to have now, most people can, can avoid seeing a baby being born. Um, but that experience is, and also seeing someone die, that experience, I think, helps train us in, it, it is the instruction book for the human mind. I don't know why I'm saying that. I, I look at you, you know, you're wrinkling your brow, and I'm like, "Also, why am I saying that?" I never-

Joe Rogan 35:36 No, I'm only wrinkling my brow 'cause I'm listening. It's-

Julia Mossbridge 35:38 I never, but I'm-

Joe Rogan 35:38 ... I have the face of someone who's always upset, but it's not true. [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 35:43 [laughs] No, I d- I, I don't know why I said that like I've never had that thought before. But it oc- I guess I was looking at this little, like you've got this little, like, idol thing on you.

Joe Rogan 35:51 Oh, that is, um, a death whistle. That's an Aztec death whistle. Don't do it.

Speaker 35:55 Oh.

Joe Rogan 35:55 You'll, you, the last time we did it, the pandemic started.

Speaker 35:57 Yeah, we got really close enough.

Julia Mossbridge 35:58 Okay. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 36:00 [laughs] Yeah, and with the head to virus thing going on, don't blow it.

Julia Mossbridge 36:03 Okay. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 36:04 Yeah. It's, there's a meme online 'cause my friend Brian Cowan was in the podcast studio, and he blew this Aztec death whistle, like literally, what was it, like a week before the-

Speaker 36:13 Yeah, it was-

Joe Rogan 36:13 ... fucking pandemic-

Speaker 36:14 It was way too close

Joe Rogan 36:14 ... kicked off?

Speaker 36:15 It was way too close.

Joe Rogan 36:16 It was way too close. And the meme was Brian Cowan kicking off the pandemic with the Aztec death whistle.

Julia Mossbridge 36:21 Okay. Well, I didn't blow it. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 36:23 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 36:24 I saved everybody.

Joe Rogan 36:25 Do you know what Aztec death, death whistles are?

Julia Mossbridge 36:27 I imagine-

Joe Rogan 36:27 They would-

Julia Mossbridge 36:27 ... it's really scary.

Joe Rogan 36:28 It sounds horrible. And they would play them at night while their enemy was, like, camped at night. And so it, they would haunt them so they couldn't sleep.

Julia Mossbridge 36:38 Oh.

Joe Rogan 36:38 They would, they, they would stand on the mountaintops and, "Weeh," and s- and make that noise.

Julia Mossbridge 36:43 Wow.

Joe Rogan 36:43 And it, it's very high-pitched, and it carries.

Julia Mossbridge 36:45 Like a crying baby.

Joe Rogan 36:46 Well, no, it's very, it's like demons. It sounds like demons.

Julia Mossbridge 36:49 Oh, like people screaming.

Joe Rogan 36:50 Yeah. And you just think, "This is the last day of my life." Here's what it sounds like.

Speaker 36:54 Aztec soldiers would blow while charging into battle and during human sacrifices. But how does a whistle make that horrifying sound? When air is blown into the tube, the airflow splits into a big and small chamber, each making a different noise you're about to hear. [whistle blowing] Click here to see me try the world's loudest whistle.

Joe Rogan 37:13 Yeah. That's what it sounds like.

Julia Mossbridge 37:13 Did that guy survive this video? [laughs]

Joe Rogan 37:15 I don't know. He might not even be real. In this world, that might be AI.

Julia Mossbridge 37:19 Well, [laughs] that's true. So no wonder I was thinking about, like, the veil between life and death, 'cause I was looking at that thing, and there's something that is like a reset, you know? When you, um, when you see a baby be born or you see someone die-

Joe Rogan 37:34 Hmm

Julia Mossbridge 37:35 ... it's like a, um, it's like you get to what matters, and it's, and it's not whatever the dominance thing, and it's not the insecurity thing, and it's not the... It's not any of that.

Joe Rogan 37:49 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 37:50 You know? So I think that's the instruction book. And so we're sort of given these little resets that allow us to get in touch with what really matters, but the more we get away from them, you know, in the modern world, um, maybe the fewer instructions we have. I don't know. Never had that thought before.

Joe Rogan 38:10 Yeah. Um, I, I think it would benefit almost everyone to do something that takes you out of your own thoughts, and um, I think that physically difficult things are the very best at that. Like, yoga is one of the very best things at that, 'cause it's very physically difficult to do. Uh, it, it requires a lot of willpower and concentration while you're doing it. You're balancing yourself, you're sweating, you're straining, and because it's so difficult, you can't think of anything else other than it while you're doing it, and I think that cleans your mind out, and that it purges you of all this weirdness that's inside of you that is constantly battling with everything around you, and allows you to just be.

Julia Mossbridge 39:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:01 Just exist.

Julia Mossbridge 39:02 Yeah. Yoga. I mean, childbirth is very physical. Dying is very physical.

Joe Rogan 39:06 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 39:07 Um-

Joe Rogan 39:07 But the thing is, you can't voluntarily do that every day.

Julia Mossbridge 39:09 No, you can't.

Joe Rogan 39:10 [laughs] You know what I mean?

Julia Mossbridge 39:10 You can't, but, but I do sort of think, like, childbirth for women who, who go through it, or are lucky enough to go through it, um, is kinda like boot camp for men. I mean, it, it really, it really pushes you to your limit-

Joe Rogan 39:24 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 39:24 ... and then puts you in an altered state where-

Joe Rogan 39:28 Oh, for sure

Julia Mossbridge 39:29 ... you're in-

Joe Rogan 39:29 You just had a human come out of your body-

Julia Mossbridge 39:31 No, it's a-

Joe Rogan 39:31 ... and now it's alive, and you love it more than anything.

Julia Mossbridge 39:34 Yeah, and it brings this, like, incredible, I'm looking at this UFO guy behind you, it brings this incredible self-transcendent experience of like, whoa.

Joe Rogan 39:41 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 39:42 Uh, this is not about me.

Joe Rogan 39:43 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 39:44 You know? And so, yeah, same with people who play team sports. I was never one of them, but I hear [laughs] that that experience happens.

Joe Rogan 39:51 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 39:52 Or like when you're practicing a musical instrument.

Joe Rogan 39:54 Well, I think anything difficult.

Julia Mossbridge 39:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:56 I think do- l- when I was talking about martial arts, you could... Martial arts will help you in that regard, but I think kinda anything that's hard to do gets you out of your head-

Julia Mossbridge 40:06 Yeah

Joe Rogan 40:06 ... and helps you.

Julia Mossbridge 40:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:07 And just deve- and getting an understanding that whatever you're doing in life, if you concentrate on it and focus on it, and, and you'll get better at it, and that gives you confidence and an understanding of kind of how the world works. And then you could also apply that to being a person. You know? Like, you're, you're not the same person you were when you were 20 years old, right? Why? 'Cause you're better at being a person, because you've lived a lot, you've had a lot of experiences, you made a lot of mistakes, and you're constantly, constantly practicing and learning, you know? And I think other things that you can do, other than just being a person, will enhance your ability to be a person.

Julia Mossbridge 40:45 Yeah. Being a person who is applying yourself to something.

Joe Rogan 40:49 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 40:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:49 My, my martial arts instructor had this thing that he told me when I was very young. He said that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential.

Julia Mossbridge 40:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:58 And-

Julia Mossbridge 40:58 Yeah

Joe Rogan 40:58 ... that-

Julia Mossbridge 40:59 Yeah. But I-

Joe Rogan 41:00 That, but think, but I think that could be guitar playing. That could be tennis.

Julia Mossbridge 41:02 When, uh-

Joe Rogan 41:03 It could be-

Julia Mossbridge 41:03 When I used to teach remote viewing, we used to call it a mental martial art. It-

Joe Rogan 41:06 Mm

Julia Mossbridge 41:06 ... it, anything that's hard, um, on which you have to concentrate, that puts you in that space of flow.

Joe Rogan 41:13 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 41:14 And the flow means, like, you know, you know that Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi th- idea? I don't know if I pronounced his name right. But this idea of timelessness, and you're just sort of having to surf whatever's happening.

Joe Rogan 41:27 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 41:27 And that could happen, it could happen in any field, right? Whatever, whenever you have to apply your whole self to something, then what's a... It's so ironic, 'cause you apply your whole self to something, and then what that allows to happen is that you become selfless. Like, y- you're almost like a tube.

Joe Rogan 41:45 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 41:46 Right?

Joe Rogan 41:46 You're not thinking about you anymore.

Julia Mossbridge 41:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:48 You're thinking about the thing.

Julia Mossbridge 41:49 Yeah, and there's neuroscience to back that up, right?

Joe Rogan 41:51 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 41:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:52 Yeah. I think anything difficult. There, that, uh, I, I feel that when I practice archery, I feel that when I play pool, I feel that when I work out. Anything difficult where you, you, you lose yourself, but in doing that, you're like, you get, you have a better understanding of yourself, which is-

Julia Mossbridge 42:10 Yeah

Joe Rogan 42:10 ... odd.

Julia Mossbridge 42:11 Yeah. And it's almost like you come into consciousness more.

Joe Rogan 42:14 Yeah. I'm really fascinated by the remote viewing, and I wanna get to that, but I wanna start with, like, how did you begin studying this stuff? So you're involved in neuroscience. You're, you know, you're trying to pick which lane you're gonna really pursue all your interests in. How did you get involved in this idea of premonition and psychic ability, and that, that there's a, a real something there?

Julia Mossbridge 42:41 Yeah. I, um, I sort of hid it from my, I hi- I hid my agenda from myself. So-

Joe Rogan 42:48 Really?

Julia Mossbridge 42:48 Yeah. [laughs] I, I discovered, you know, later in life. Yeah, because when I was a kid, uh, my first precognitive dream that I remember was when I was seven, and, um, it was very clear. I, I dreamt that my friend, I knew which friend, Ishayne, would, what would happen, she would lose her watch. Where would it happen? On the playground. And then the next day, that happened. It was very specificYou know, it wasn't like you don't have to be metaphorical about it. What does it mean? It meant that Shane lost her watch on the playground the next day.

Joe Rogan 43:20 Right, right.

Julia Mossbridge 43:21 And so-

Joe Rogan 43:22 Did you tell your parents?

Julia Mossbridge 43:23 Yeah, and they said... My mom, so my, so my, so my very eccentric, um, family would always talk about dreams at the breakfast table. My mom is a therapist and a learning disability specialist. My dad was a physicist. My sister's an artist. And we would all talk about dreams, and so I would, I'd mention this, and my dad, the physicist, says, "Well, that's a coincidence." And my mom, the therapist, says, "You should get a dream journal and write them down." And so I did that. And, um-

Joe Rogan 43:54 Your dad just dismissed it as a coincidence?

Julia Mossbridge 43:57 You know, he, he has come around.

Joe Rogan 43:59 That's a very specific coincidence.

Julia Mossbridge 44:02 It's three, three factors.

Joe Rogan 44:03 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 44:04 And I always like to say if you have two or more factors, it's likely precognitive.

Joe Rogan 44:07 But just the one.

Julia Mossbridge 44:08 Yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 44:08 Lost the watch, and then she loses her watch. But Joe-

Julia Mossbridge 44:11 Well, but she did just get her watch. She wa- we were seven years old. She got her watch from her father. You know, I could, you could predict that if someone who's good at figuring out what kids do, that they might lose the watch, right? So that could be a coincidence. You have to think about all the possible things that could happen to a seven-year-old and the watch that they just got. Losing it is up there.

Joe Rogan 44:29 Yeah, but you thought about it the day before she lost it.

Julia Mossbridge 44:31 I dreamt it the day before she lost it.

Joe Rogan 44:33 Yeah, th- dreamt it.

Julia Mossbridge 44:34 Yeah. Yeah. So he did dismiss it as a coincidence, but we also had ball lightning and, like, weird orbs in our house, and he also dismissed that as not actually having happened.

Joe Rogan 44:42 Wait, you had ball lightning in your house?

Julia Mossbridge 44:45 Yeah, we were in this old farmhouse in Libertyville, Illinois, where I grew up. And we lived with my grandparents there. And, um, and, uh, ball lightning came inside the house, and my mother stood up for it. My mother said, "Ed," my, my dad's name, you know, "Didn't you see that lightning zipping around the house last night? Lightning." And my dad said, um, "That couldn't have happened." [laughs]

Joe Rogan 45:11 Did he see it?

Julia Mossbridge 45:12 Of course he saw it.

Joe Rogan 45:13 But he just wanted to dismiss it.

Julia Mossbridge 45:14 But he didn't have an explanation for it.

Joe Rogan 45:15 What does your dad do?

Julia Mossbridge 45:16 He was a theoretical physicist. When he-

Joe Rogan 45:18 Hmm

Julia Mossbridge 45:18 ... for his dissertation, he was at University of Chicago. He, he discovered or, or, or showed somehow the electron layer on the moon, that there's this, like, atmosphere of electrons on the moon. And, um-

Joe Rogan 45:29 How can he say that that couldn't happen?

Julia Mossbridge 45:31 So h- one of the reasons, so people are so complex with the reasons they go into particular fields. My experience with physicists, my dad included, is they tend to go into this field of physics because the whole job of physics is to simplify everything into a few equations, right? Let's, like, there's the funny, there's the, I don't know if it's funny, but there's the, the standard physics joke of like, "All right, let's figure out the volume of a cow. You know, let's, let's just estimate it. It's a sphere." You know? [laughs] And so it's like you cut off the legs and the, and the, and the head and the tail, and all of a sudden you're just calculating a sphere, which doesn't give you the volume of the cow. And so I think there's a desire to simplify everything, and I think there's a desire to control things. Um, and many, many, many physicists have OCD, and, or have control issues. My dad had severe, severe OCD. And so in his, in his mind, um, it couldn't have happened because it would f- all his circuits would fry.

Joe Rogan 46:30 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 46:30 'Cause he didn't know how to explain it. And my mother just stood up for it and said, "Well, it did happen, and you saw it, and I saw it." And it hit the edge of my room and then went out, and there was still, like, the brown mark where it was burned [laughs] in the corner of the room.

Joe Rogan 46:44 Wow.

Julia Mossbridge 46:44 So, like, we had plenty of evidence. Um, so there was stuff going on, and there was a, there was this push-pull with my mom, who just, uh, believed in the primacy, I guess, of or the importance of experience, like we saw it, and, uh, the pull from my dad, who believed in, uh, if you didn't understand, if you didn't have a theory for something, it couldn't exist. And so I was living in that. So what I did was I kept a dream journal, uh, sort of the rest of my life. I, I still write every morning my dreams, and started to notice that I was really good at precognitive dreaming, and it would happen again and again and again. And I would have, um, experience, we can get into later the weird school stuff, but experiences at school that reminded me that I had this capacity. And, um, then I hid it from myself when I realized I wanted to go to graduate school and actually be a scientist. So by w- by which I mean I just sort of said, "Well, all of that stuff's crap," even though I was still having those experiences. I had to kind of split off. [laughs] This is a thing that you have to do if, if you think, "Okay, I have to ride the academic train," right? And the academic train says, like, "I'm gonna do hard science. I'm gonna-"

Joe Rogan 48:02 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 48:02 "... you know, go to the best neuroscience school. I'm gonna..." You know? [laughs]

Joe Rogan 48:05 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 48:05 And then by the time I was in my late 20s and, um, I was in my second graduate school getting my PhD at Northwestern, I started to remember. And, uh, the reason I started, and it's not like I had really forgotten, but it's like it just wasn't allowed to be real. I started to study timing in the auditory system 'cause I, I was into understanding how the auditory system managed things in time. And then I started to ask myself, "Why am I so interested in time? Why am I so interested in the nature of time and how it works?" And then boom, oh, right, because I keep having these precognitive dreams. There's obviously something we don't understand about how time works because these are so consistent and clear. And at that point, you know, I, I knew that was happening.

Joe Rogan 48:51 Oh.

Julia Mossbridge 48:51 Because I knew I wasn't making it up. I could look at my journal, and I could see it. So that's when I started saying, "All right, you know, I'm old enough to choose my own path, and I'm gonna start asking these questions."

Joe Rogan 49:03 And when you started asking them and trying to apply it in, uh, using the scientific method, how did you first attempt to do that?

Julia Mossbridge 49:12 Well, I called... I, I was a, I ha- I'm kind of fearlessWhen it comes to cold calling people, especially scientists, 'cause very few people call scientists. [laughs] So I called up Dean Radin. I had read some of his work from the Institute of Noetic Sciences. I called him up and I said, um, "Hi, my name's Julia, and I was thinking of [laughs] going into this field, and I think precognition is real." And he's like, "Oh, okay." And, [laughs] and I remember where I was sitting, uh, when I called him. And, uh, he said, "The thing you have to do is get your PhD in a field that is not this. So finish your PhD, and then as a postdoc, start to investigate it." So I did. I finished my PhD while I was studying all this other stuff and understanding the field, and then as soon as I got into my postdoc years, I found a, a sympathetic advisor at Northwestern, uh, in the cognitive neuroscience program, and, um, and just said, "I wanna start studying this stuff." So I, at the same time, I had one foot in more mainstream stuff about timing and the auditory and the visual system, and then the other foot was in this purely, basically psychic stuff, trying to understand it. And I made an experiment. Um, there's a foundation called the Bial Foundation in Portugal, and I wrote, I wrote an application to them, and they funded my postdoc so I could study the sense of being stared at, um, with, like, closed circuit TV monitors, and I could study how the skin physiology, you know, skin conductance or sweat changes when, um, just before you get a response right on a random, like, psychic task. And so that, that's kind of precognition or presentiment. And then I just pulled from... I got really interested in presentiment 'cause I saw that it was real, and I also saw there was a big gender difference that was fascinating to me, which is that before men got their first trial correct, this is just a guessing game so the, you know, it's all randomly selected, their skin conductance would go crazy like they just won the lottery. And when they're, before they didn't get it correct or they were incorrect, it would just kinda like peter along. So they were anticipating at a very high level what the future was going to bring, whether they were gonna win or not. Whereas women practically, but not totally, showed the opposite, but their skin, the, but, but regardless of what happened, whether it was correct or incorrect, they were much lower than men. So men were really excited about the future correct thing. At least their physiology showed that. So I got fascinated by that and pulled together a bunch of, um, worked with a couple other people at different institutions and pulled together 26 studies over the past or the prior, I guess, 40 years, that looked at this kind of physiological change that predicts essentially a random future event, and, uh, just analyzed it.

Joe Rogan 52:04 Do you have a theory as to why men have that response and women don't?

Julia Mossbridge 52:09 You know, I, I kinda think it's cultural. You were talking about the importance of winning, and I think... I mean, the, we know that gambling addicts are twice as likely or maybe three times as likely to be men as women.

Joe Rogan 52:25 Mm. Really?

Julia Mossbridge 52:26 And, yeah. And the importance of winning, well, I don't know if it's biological or cultural, but in any case, the importance of being alpha or the importance of winning, I think it's a big deal. It's a big deal to the, to men.

Joe Rogan 52:42 Do you think that goes back to tribal war?

Julia Mossbridge 52:45 I think it goes, like, back to, like, chimpanzees.

Joe Rogan 52:49 Yeah, which do tribal war.

Julia Mossbridge 52:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:51 Yeah. I mean, it, it kind of makes sense that the importance in winning is literally survival or death.

Julia Mossbridge 52:56 You will get kicked out of-

Joe Rogan 52:57 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 52:58 ... your little chimpanzee colony.

Joe Rogan 52:59 Not only that, the ability to predict things that are going to happen would probably keep you alive.

Julia Mossbridge 53:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:06 Like, if you were running into an ambush, you know, like, "I don't like this," or something's wrong, something's off, or now's the time to go. Like, I feel it.

Julia Mossbridge 53:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:15 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 53:16 Yeah, so those combined. But, you know, there's other tasks that aren't about winning, that are just about, is, you know, are you gonna see a picture that's scary versus a picture that's neutral, where women and men both show the effect. But in this particular task, it was just, like, very clear. And then I replicated it in heart, heartbeat. So the first one was in skin conductance, and then I looked at heart rhythms. And, uh, I replicated that same thing where men are like, "Oh, yeah, here we go."

Joe Rogan 53:41 Mm.

Julia Mossbridge 53:41 And women are like, "Da, da, da, da." Um, it doesn't, if something doesn't matter so much to you in the future, I don't think it matters so much to you in anticipating it.

Joe Rogan 53:51 Mm. Now, here's the question about this stuff. Do you think that this is an emerging phenomenon in human consciousness, or do you think it's something that has atrophied that was available before language? So th-

Julia Mossbridge 54:08 Uh, very clearly available f- I mean, before language.

Joe Rogan 54:11 Okay, that's what I think.

Julia Mossbridge 54:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:12 I've been thinking that a lot lately.

Julia Mossbridge 54:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:14 And one of the things that I've been thinking is one of the things that we've noticed, like, I think phones and the internet and the computers are an amazing thing. You can acquire so much information. You can learn about things. You can e- encounter new people. There's so much stuff that's great about the internet. The bad thing is a lot of people have a much shorter attention span now because of social media, and then now they're demonstrating that through use of large language models, a lot of people are actually getting dumber.

Julia Mossbridge 54:46 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:46 Or they're-

Julia Mossbridge 54:47 I've noticed it already.

Joe Rogan 54:48 Yeah. Well, it's s- they've studied it, and they, especially children, they're, they're actually less capable of solving problems themselves because they always turn to a computer and have the computer solve a problem. And the more I think about that, the more I look at that, I go, "Well, what is language?" Language is a technology, and language is a technology that allows you to say things with your mouth, and I know what you're thinking. Maybe before that existed, we had an understanding of what we were thinking. You know, maybe there's, like, some sort of a weird psychic connection that we all believe that people have with each other in some way or form, and some of it's, you could demonstrate some of it, you know? ButMost of it is just intuition and feeling, and I always wonder, like, is this atrophied? Like, before we could talk, when we were just these bipedal hominids with, you know, larger brains than all the other mammals, and these weird abilities to be curious and figure out things and develop tools, like, what was, what was consciousness like before language-

Julia Mossbridge 55:51 Yeah

Joe Rogan 55:51 ... before written language? You didn't have a word for dog and tree, and like, what was it that was going on in your head if you don't... Like, you think in your head. I think in my head in a voice.

Julia Mossbridge 56:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:04 You know? I, and they say some people don't have an internal voice.

Julia Mossbridge 56:07 I don't have that.

Joe Rogan 56:07 You don't have an internal voice?

Julia Mossbridge 56:08 I have pictures.

Joe Rogan 56:09 Ooh, that's interesting.

Julia Mossbridge 56:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:12 Really?

Julia Mossbridge 56:13 Yeah. I sometimes wonder about that, if that's why I can, I can do the remote viewing stuff.

Joe Rogan 56:17 Only pictures?

Julia Mossbridge 56:19 Feelings.

Joe Rogan 56:20 Oh, I have a whole dude in my brain.

Julia Mossbridge 56:22 Yeah. I, I've heard that most people have that.

Joe Rogan 56:25 No, I don't think it's most people.

Julia Mossbridge 56:26 Really?

Joe Rogan 56:26 I think it's kind of d- well-

Julia Mossbridge 56:28 Is it your voice? Like-

Joe Rogan 56:29 Oh, it's not me, no. I mean, it may, it might be-

Julia Mossbridge 56:32 Is it, like, your dad, or?

Joe Rogan 56:33 No, no, no, no, no.

Julia Mossbridge 56:33 Is it, is it a guy?

Joe Rogan 56:35 Yeah. It's like a general.

Julia Mossbridge 56:37 Oh.

Joe Rogan 56:37 It's like someone's going, "Shut the fuck up." Like, "Go to work."

Julia Mossbridge 56:40 Yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 56:40 "Go do this. What are you talking about? Why are you being such a bitch?" Like, what-

Julia Mossbridge 56:44 So he's a kind of a jerk. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 56:45 No. No, no, no, no. He's right, always. [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 56:49 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 56:49 My inner voice is never wrong. My inner self-correcting voice is always correct.

Julia Mossbridge 56:54 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 56:54 It's always right. It's always like, it's, uh... I mean, if you wanted to get really crazy, you would say it's like a guardian angel in your brain that's staring you, s- steering you in the right direction. But if I've done something wrong in my life, made a mistake in my life, said something I shouldn't have said, that voice berates me.

Julia Mossbridge 57:14 Wow. So that seems hard.

Joe Rogan 57:16 No, it's good. It's great.

Julia Mossbridge 57:17 I mean, like, but-

Joe Rogan 57:18 No, you gotta get over it.

Julia Mossbridge 57:19 Well, but I mean, isn't there-

Joe Rogan 57:20 You gotta... But that's how you learn.

Julia Mossbridge 57:21 Well, [laughs] uh, I mean, let's talk about that.

Joe Rogan 57:26 Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 57:27 [laughs] Because when people go through hard things, one way to learn is, like, berating.

Joe Rogan 57:32 Uh-huh.

Julia Mossbridge 57:33 Um, but that's kinda, like, not as sustainable as forgiving yourself and deciding that you can, figuring out how you can do better. I mean, is berating really the best?

Joe Rogan 57:44 I think you have to feel pain from mistakes.

Julia Mossbridge 57:47 But don't you already feel the pain?

Joe Rogan 57:49 No, you gotta really feel it in order to make-

Julia Mossbridge 57:50 Do you feel like the only way-

Joe Rogan 57:51 I don't like making mistakes twice, and the best way to not make s- m- make a mistake twice is have the first one suck so bad that you never wanna go through that again.

Julia Mossbridge 57:59 For sure.

Joe Rogan 57:59 And if it doesn't really suck, make it suck in your head.

Julia Mossbridge 58:02 But does it already [laughs] ...

Joe Rogan 58:04 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 58:04 Doesn't, doesn't... I feel like it already sucks without a guy telling you that it sucks.

Joe Rogan 58:07 Well, it's not nec- I mean, I'm kind of exaggerating. It's not just that. But it's like, it's not even like you're, you... It's not pejoratives. It's not, you know, insults, "You're a fucking loser." It's like, "You fucked up. The, you did this. You were supposed to do that. You, you were supposed to get something done. You didn't get it done. You were supposed to do this, but you fucked it up. Like, don't fuck it up again. This is what you did wrong. Don't do that again."

Julia Mossbridge 58:34 I get it.

Joe Rogan 58:34 "This is what you could have done right."

Julia Mossbridge 58:36 It's like your conscience.

Joe Rogan 58:37 It is like a conscience, but it's very strong. It's very loud.

Julia Mossbridge 58:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:42 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 58:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:43 And I have to learn how to sometimes ignore it and just calm, otherwise I won't sleep.

Julia Mossbridge 58:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 58:48 Like, I need to have it-

Julia Mossbridge 58:49 It can be too harsh.

Joe Rogan 58:49 Yeah. But it doesn't, like, I don't hate myself or anything like that.

Julia Mossbridge 58:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:52 It's not that, but it's just, like, honest.

Julia Mossbridge 58:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:57 It's just an honest assessment of everything that I've ever done, ever.

Julia Mossbridge 59:02 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 59:02 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 59:02 That sounds... That's like instant karma.

Joe Rogan 59:05 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 59:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:06 In a way, yeah. But it works. It works, and I think it made me, makes me a better person. I'm better than I would have been if I didn't have that self-correcting mechanism.

Julia Mossbridge 59:16 There's this poem by this mystic, and I forget her name, but at the end of it she says, um, "At the end of the day, I always bring to my mind all the people that I was kind to, and then I can fall asleep."

Joe Rogan 59:31 Man.

Julia Mossbridge 59:31 And so if you know, that's another way to do it, right? If you know that at the end of the day you have to look in the face-

Joe Rogan 59:38 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 59:38 ... of all the people that you were kind to so you can fall asleep, then that kinda makes your day.

Joe Rogan 59:44 That, yeah. No, definitely. And I think, I always tell people that being kind and being generous is kind of selfish.

Julia Mossbridge 59:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:52 Because-

Julia Mossbridge 59:52 Right. Because exactly that

Joe Rogan 59:53 ... 'cause you feel better.

Julia Mossbridge 59:54 Yeah. You do.

Joe Rogan 59:55 You feel better about yourself. You feel better about life. You feel better about everything. It's actually a good thing to do to be kind and, and generous.

Julia Mossbridge 1:00:01 But-

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 And that, that's, like, counter... Like, you shouldn't think that way. No, you should just be kind and generous.

Julia Mossbridge 1:00:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:07 I, I agree. But also-

Julia Mossbridge 1:00:09 And

Joe Rogan 1:00:09 ... you benefit from it, and I think the more people understand that you benefit, the more people are likely to behave in that way, and it'd be better for everybody.

Julia Mossbridge 1:00:17 So back to the language thing. So this actually, to me, relates to the language thing. If you develop language, um, you are more aware of, of what you're thinking in a certain sense-

Joe Rogan 1:00:28 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 1:00:28 ... b- if you think linguistically. Um, but you also in a way sort of dampen down, as, as you say, and I agree with you that there's this, there's a, there's a trade-off there. You dampen down the, the sort of instant knowledge of how people around you are feeling.

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:00:45 Like that telepathy thing. So I keep looking at this skull, right?

Joe Rogan 1:00:48 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:00:49 And so what we know, I don't think it, uh, but I don't think we've lost it. So you s- you had this idea that we've lost that psychic stuff. I think it's absolutely there, and I think it's neuroscientifically defensible that it's there, but that language actually suppresses it. So-

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 Yeah. Atrophies it.

Julia Mossbridge 1:01:05 It doesn't atrophy it.

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 No?

Julia Mossbridge 1:01:07 It's, it's like you can actually use, um... So okay, so there's this cool result from this guy in Baycrest. His name's Morris Freeman, and he's a neurologist there, uh, up in Canada. And he noticed in his, um, stroke patients that if they had lesions here, so their stroke kinda messed up this area here, left frontal orbital area, um, of the brain-In the cortex, um, that they seem to be more psychic. Like, he didn't know how to explain it. So he did an actual experiment where he tried to get people to move with their minds an arrow on a computer screen. So th- there was no mouse, there was no way to move it. They just had to th- look at the arrow and say, "Move to the left," or, "Move to the right," and wish it to happen, and using their intention, right? So the people who had the strokes there were able to do it statistically significantly. Um, people who had the strokes over here were not able to do it.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 So can I s- pause you here?

Julia Mossbridge 1:02:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:07 What was actually moving the cursor?

Julia Mossbridge 1:02:09 So he had a random number generator hooked up to the drill.

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 1:02:12 So the cursor was kinda like shaking.

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:02:14 And the random number generator would make it deviate to the left or to the right. So the person was effectively changing the random number generator.

Joe Rogan 1:02:20 How often?

Julia Mossbridge 1:02:22 Um, enough so that it was statistically significant.

Joe Rogan 1:02:24 What is statistically significant in terms of numbers?

Julia Mossbridge 1:02:26 So what you would do is, sure, you would have a control.

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:02:29 So you, you have the, the try period where you say to the person, "Try to move it to the left. Try to move it to the right." And then you have the control period where you say, you know, "Read a book," like you're not trying.

Joe Rogan 1:02:39 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:02:39 And you compare the amount, the distance and the amount of time it's spent in the intended direction to the reading a book time. And if it's... You can, you know, there's statistical tests you can use to determine whether it was spending time in the intended direction more often when it was intended.

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 But, but how much more often?

Julia Mossbridge 1:02:58 Um, a number that's statistically significant. So I guess, so it's like imagine-

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 Like 5%, 10%?

Julia Mossbridge 1:03:05 Oh, I forget what the actual quantitative number is.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 But that would be interesting to know-

Julia Mossbridge 1:03:09 It totally would. I just forget

Joe Rogan 1:03:10 ... and whether or not it would change with different humans.

Julia Mossbridge 1:03:13 I, I agree. But then he, then he replicated it. Instead of looking at stroke patients, he looked at, uh, used, uh, transcranial magnetic stimulation.

Joe Rogan 1:03:22 Mm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:03:23 Which turns down activity. So he put that over here, so he's putting that over the left area.

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:03:28 And to turn that down, and again, they were, people, these are not people who've had strokes, just regular people, you and I, they were able to do this with their minds. So it's just sitting there. What was... His explanation is that the front, um, uh, left orbital frontal area is, we know that it inhibits the right, uh, frontal area, and we know that the right orbital frontal inhibits the left. And his explanation is this stuff is going on in the right hemisphere, or at least is dominated by that. And, um, when you suppress it, it, you're not as psychic, and when you release the suppression, you are more psychic.

Joe Rogan 1:04:06 Ah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:04:06 And it's just right under the surface. It's right there. And so when I, when I work with non-speaking autistic kids, it's, um, it feels to me like [laughs] that's a pretty good explanation of what's going on. They're not activating this part as much. I, I... Not that I've proven this. I'm, this is a hypothesis. And, and it, and it's not, I'm not the only one with the hypothesis. But they're not activating this part as much. We know that because this is where speech is over here, right? These areas, uh, in the left. And so therefore, this area can be a little bit more free, so the psychic stuff is coming out.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 Huh. Well, that's one of the weird things that they've demonstrated about certain psychedelics like psilocybin. You would think that it just, like, turns on your mind and all the synapses are firing. No.

Julia Mossbridge 1:04:52 Dampens.

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:04:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:54 Which is very weird.

Julia Mossbridge 1:04:55 Yeah. So it's-

Joe Rogan 1:04:56 'Cause it makes you think like, what are we doing with the mind?

Julia Mossbridge 1:04:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:59 Or the brain, I should say. Not the mind.

Julia Mossbridge 1:05:01 Well, and the brain is related to the mind-

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 1:05:03 ... in ways we don't understand, and then it's sometimes not related to the mind, right? Like in the psilocybin results, you're having all these experiences, but the brain is dampened.

Joe Rogan 1:05:12 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:05:12 What's going on? And there's the filter theory of consciousness says, well, consciousness is kind of like out there, almost like a radio signal, and your brain's kind of filtering it.

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 1:05:22 So that then you have this simple like, oh, pick up the cup and say the words. And, you know [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 1:05:27 ... you can kinda live your life without realizing that person over there is having this experience, and that's going on, and then in the future this will happen. So it makes sense to me that it's like our conscious minds, in order to just deal with daily life, have to be kinda stupid.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 Mm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:05:44 And then-

Joe Rogan 1:05:45 Right, 'cause otherwise you'd be overwhelmed by all the data and possibilities, and-

Julia Mossbridge 1:05:48 It's so much

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 ... you, you're in the universe, and-

Julia Mossbridge 1:05:51 It's so much data. It's a-

Joe Rogan 1:05:52 Multicellular creatures all around you.

Julia Mossbridge 1:05:54 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:05:55 And subatomic particles. Like, ah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:05:56 Well, yeah. And then, and that's, and, and when we're working with, uh, I work with a whole team that works with non-speaking autistic kids, like in telepathy tapes, and when we're working with them, like, they get distracted by that stuff. Like they'll say, I, you know, "I'm distracted." They're, they'll, when I say say, I mean they're, you know, typing on a letterboard or a keyboard.

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:06:15 You know, there's spirits in the room or, you know, I'm, I'm thinking about what you did earlier today that I didn't know about, but I do know about 'cause I'm telepathic, you know? [laughs] And so it's like a lot of information that makes it pretty hard to be in the here and now.

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 Has, have any of those non-verbal autistic kids ever wrote something down where they couldn't possibly have known it?

Julia Mossbridge 1:06:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:36 Like what?

Julia Mossbridge 1:06:37 Oh, I can give you many examples. In fact, um, do you wanna... I have a video of that.

Joe Rogan 1:06:42 Oh, sure. Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 1:06:43 Yeah. I have to walk you through the video.

Joe Rogan 1:06:44 Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 1:06:45 Yeah. Do you have that over there?

Speaker 1:06:47 I don't know.

Julia Mossbridge 1:06:48 I gave you like 18 things.

Speaker 1:06:49 Oh. I... Give me a second. Sorry.

Julia Mossbridge 1:06:52 Okay. So the, so let me explain the context.

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 1:06:57 So, um, uh, I met my research team partially through people I had already worked with, and partially folks who, uh, Kai Dickens, creator of The Telepathy Tapes-

Joe Rogan 1:07:09 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 1:07:09 ... introduced me to.

Joe Rogan 1:07:09 I had her on.

Julia Mossbridge 1:07:10 Yeah, I know.

Joe Rogan 1:07:11 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:07:11 It was a great show.

Joe Rogan 1:07:11 Very interesting.

Julia Mossbridge 1:07:12 And so I, I wanted to ask that question, can we use rigorous methods to have folks write down, non-speakers or spellers, whatever we wanna call them. Um, I think non-speakers or spellers are preferred. Um, non-verbal kind of implies that they don't have language at all, but the, the reality is they don't, they may speak, but they don't speak to communicate. They use letterboards or-

Joe Rogan 1:07:35 Got it

Julia Mossbridge 1:07:36 ... or keyboards. Um, I wanted to understand, like-They're doing all these tests where they're repeating numbers and letters, and that's interesting, but it doesn't really, to me... I mean, the whole world of s- testing people for psychic abilities, it's not very interesting. And if we presume that these students are actually pretty smart, it's gotta be boring for them. And so I thought, "Well, let's give them an opportunity to really show their stuff." And so I set up this whole rigorous trial set, and even the non-speakers came o- on board and actually told us what they would like to see the stimuli be. "We want videos. We want music. We want words in the videos that are sung." I mean, they just told us all these things that they wanted, and by, by again, using the letter boards. And we said, "Okay, we can do all that, but the, the catch is the person who's sending the information is gonna be in another room maybe, like, 30 yards away with a closed door, and you can work with your communication partner, but she is not gonna know what the target is, and she's gonna have no idea what the target could be, 'cause she's never gonna see any of the target videos that we'll use." And so we were preparing for this, and, uh, we were getting our software ready. We were preparing for the formal trials that would be filmed for the, for the documentary. And so we were doing that on Zoom. We weren't yet in person. But the non-speaker that I'm about to tell you about was with his communication partner, Maria Welch, who's a speech and language pathologist. Um, and sh- he was, you know, getting ready to do the trial. We were explaining it to him. And I was in Virginia. Maria and the student were in, um, in Illinois. And then Jeff Tarrant, uh, another co-investigator, another neuroscientist, was in Oregon. And so the person who was gonna send the video, in other words, just intend to send the video, like in a tele- telepathy experiment, was gonna be Jeff. He, uh, the non-speaker chose Jeff. And then, um, we did it. We turned off our cameras. We were on Zoom. We turned off our cameras. We turned off our microphones. Jeff sent the video. Maria and the student started, I don't know, intending to receive it. And then these, the student said he was ready. He spelled that he was ready. And then Maria asked the question that I put i- I thought I had put in the Zoom chat for her, because we didn't have our software set up, so I had to send her a question in the Zoom chat. And I, and the way we traditionally did it at that time was I asked multiple choice. "Is it a, is it a this, this, this, or this?" But the thing is, by mistake, I sent that to Jeff 'cause I had a private chat with him going, so I didn't realize that she didn't have the questions. Meanwhile, the student starts to spell on the letter board. He says, "I'm ready." He says, "It's a beautiful sky." And she had not seen the questions. Um, it was a beautiful sky. The... Of all the videos in the world that he picked to describe that way, it was a video of the tops of trees, and then above them, um, like, northern lights that had been colored, like, by an artist to look even more cool, and then there's, like, a time lapse. And he said, "It's, uh, i- it's art of a beautiful sky." And that was a really great description. And statistically, there's almost no way to calculate how statistically likely that is, because it could've been any video in the world, and we didn't even give him the, the multiple choice.

Speaker 1:11:14 Whoa.

Julia Mossbridge 1:11:14 Yeah. So actually, that's not the video I'm gonna show you. I just realized that I wanted to answer the question more directly. The video I'm gonna, I wanna show you, if you can find it, is one of what we call a telepathy train, where the students... And this happened more than once when, when we were physically in town in, in Chicago as a team, where the st- one student comes in and says something, leaves, and the next student comes in with their mom, and they check in. You know, Maria always asks them, "Would you like to check in?" And then they refer to the thing the last student was talking about. And, um, and it happened in a really compelling way in this video, because there was also a discussion that the first student who comes in, which I believe I'm calling Participant 4, t- just for anonymity. So Participant 4 comes in and asks, says he wants to go on a double date with Participant 5 and his girlfriend. And then, and then he says, "Tell his mom." And then when Participant 5 comes in, he says, um, "Tell my mom I wanna go to, on a double date with Participant 4 and his girlfriend." So they clearly had already discussed this telepathically, 'cause, um, they're non-speakers. They're not talking to each other. Their parents haven't talked to each other about this. The parents don't know each other. And so, so that happened. And then they also passed on this [laughs] I mean, so this k- stuff kept happening. They also passed on this idea of slamming a beach ball on the ground in order to identify each of the videos, because they wanted to get the telepathy, uh, signals right, but they were missing them, you know, on the, on the formal trials. So they discussed between themselves, apparently telepathically, "If you slam a beach ball on the ground before we do the trial, then we'll focus on it in time, and we'll go to the right timeline to talk about..." [laughs] This is, this is what they write down, "To, to get to the video in our minds." And so that's the video that I wanted to show you, if it's here, where-

Speaker 1:13:15 Okay

Julia Mossbridge 1:13:15 ... where he... Because I don't include the double date stuff in it because it's too private and they say too many names of other-

Speaker 1:13:21 On the page I have-

Julia Mossbridge 1:13:22 ... students

Speaker 1:13:22 ... it says, "Here's a link," but there's no link that I can find unless it's behind the-

Julia Mossbridge 1:13:26 Oh, um, you know what? If you go-

Speaker 1:13:28 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 1:13:28 ... uh, go back to what you just saw, and then say, "I worked with my team to get out this response right away." It includes a link to this video as well.

Speaker 1:13:36 Yeah, I had that open. Uh...

Julia Mossbridge 1:13:38 Yeah. So that's the, on the Inexable, right. Then if you go d- um, down.

Speaker 1:13:44 I didn't see a video.

Julia Mossbridge 1:13:47 Go up. Go down. You're going too fast. You're-

Speaker 1:13:50 Sorry, I'm just going to the top and then-

Julia Mossbridge 1:13:52 Yeah, so that's my mom and my other mom. All right, scroll all the way down. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. You got it. Keep going. This is all about the science stuff. Okay, now stop right there. Slow down. And then now go a little bit more down. All right, no. Okay, go up. Yeah.

Speaker 1:14:14 All right, there. Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:14:14 Video of the debrief?

Julia Mossbridge 1:14:15 You got it.

Joe Rogan 1:14:16 All right. This is it?

Julia Mossbridge 1:14:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:21 Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 1:14:25 And that's Jeff and me on the right, and that's Maria. Maybe someone else has questions to ask.

Speaker 1:14:30 I was wondering if there was the best way to present the video so that the timing doesn't become a factor. Like maybe he saw a video at a different time, but how could we make this one stand out so you know that's the one we're talking about?

Julia Mossbridge 1:14:45 Yeah, great. That's kind of what I was gonna ask. And that's Natalia on the very left.

Speaker 1:14:51 I guess that might need to make it clear that for you. Put your foot on the floor or cross your leg. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:15:03 And so he's typing something into a keyboard right now?

Julia Mossbridge 1:15:06 He's typing into the keyboard.

Speaker 1:15:08 Counseling.

Speaker 1:15:10 Oh yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:15:10 It's got electronic voice. And the electronic voice is hard to hear, so she'll repeat it, and then I also have a little slide that shows what he said.

Joe Rogan 1:15:19 What did the voice say?

Speaker 1:15:21 S-L-A-M.

Julia Mossbridge 1:15:23 Slam.

Speaker 1:15:23 Slam.

Joe Rogan 1:15:23 Slam.

Speaker 1:15:26 A. Ball.

Joe Rogan 1:15:39 Slam a ball?

Julia Mossbridge 1:15:41 This is where he's giving us this idea to slam a ball on the ground to get him to the right timeline in telepathy trials. It was his idea. We never, it never occurred to us.

Speaker 1:15:52 Before that.

Julia Mossbridge 1:15:53 That's before.

Speaker 1:15:55 Mm-hmm. I picked up the F. I don't know why. Before.

Speaker 1:15:58 Ready.

Julia Mossbridge 1:16:05 By the way, Maria has a big crush on you. [laughs] She knows you're married, but she told me not to tell you.

Speaker 1:16:14 Thanks.

Joe Rogan 1:16:15 Tara said thanks.

Julia Mossbridge 1:16:16 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:16:17 [laughs]

Speaker 1:16:22 Video.

Speaker 1:16:23 Okay. Who sh- where or which person would be helpful to do that for the video?

Julia Mossbridge 1:16:31 No. So this just-

Joe Rogan 1:16:34 Okay, so this is the transcript of it.

Julia Mossbridge 1:16:36 Can you pause there?

Joe Rogan 1:16:36 "Slam a ball before sending," that's what he's saying.

Julia Mossbridge 1:16:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:39 Uh, Natalia says, "Who should do that before the video is sent?"

Julia Mossbridge 1:16:43 He says, "Sender."

Joe Rogan 1:16:44 Uh, he says, "Sender. What kind of ball? Slam a beach ball. Why would you draw your at- why would that draw your attention to this timeline?" He says, "Because I could see and hear it when looking in the future." "Does it matter how many times she slams it?" He says, "Before each video once."

Julia Mossbridge 1:17:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:01 So the slamming of the ball allowed him to look into the future, is what he was saying?

Julia Mossbridge 1:17:06 He was hoping that would work because he had just failed a telepathy trial, and he said, "I was on a different timeline." And we said, "So how can we get you on this timeline?" And he said he made up this idea of slamming a beach ball. And what we found fascinating about it was, um, you know, that's an original idea that none of us thought about. But then we also found it fascinating because of what you'll see next, which is the next person who comes in, who of course hadn't heard any of this. This is another participant, Participant 5, and Natalia's r-

Speaker 1:17:38 [singing]

Joe Rogan 1:17:40 Participant 4 arrives after Participant 5 leaves. He asked to go on a double date with Participant 5 and his girlfriend, something Participant 5 asked about Participant 4 already. He also brings up something Participant 5 mentioned about how to make the telepathy work better.

Speaker 1:17:59 [singing]

Joe Rogan 1:18:07 What is that voice?

Julia Mossbridge 1:18:10 That's him. He, um, he's able to type and, um, do this sort of sing-song talking at the same time.

Speaker 1:18:18 It would be good to try the beach ball slam.

Julia Mossbridge 1:18:21 Now, did you see how Natalia just does that little shrug?

Speaker 1:18:24 [singing]

Joe Rogan 1:18:25 "It would be good to try the beach ball slam." So now he didn't hear that other conversation at all?

Julia Mossbridge 1:18:29 No.

Joe Rogan 1:18:29 He wasn't in the room?

Julia Mossbridge 1:18:31 His mom-

Joe Rogan 1:18:31 Where was he?

Julia Mossbridge 1:18:32 So he was at home with his mom, so he came in after. We had a 20-minute break between the participants.

Joe Rogan 1:18:36 So he wasn't anywhere near the building. No, there's no way he could have known.

Julia Mossbridge 1:18:41 That's why Natalia gave that shrug, like, "See?" She and Maria see this all the time, where students will all be talking about the same thing [laughs] and they, and they don't-

Joe Rogan 1:18:50 So he just comes in and says the beach ball slam would be a good idea.

Julia Mossbridge 1:18:53 Sla- yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:53 So he somehow or another-

Julia Mossbridge 1:18:55 It's as if he was in that conversation.

Joe Rogan 1:18:57 Whoa.

Julia Mossbridge 1:18:57 Yeah. And this, this is... It is, it is like they are all in the same conversation, and [laughs] it is so... It's hard to think about what it would be like, but it's becoming more and more clear to me that it would be very difficult to just be in this conversation where the words are coming out of our mouths if you also are just having all these conversations with other people.

Joe Rogan 1:19:21 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:19:22 I mean, it's like an incredible focus. And so the work that he has to do to type, and then he's also using his sing-song voice, and he's clearly having some kind of conversation in his head.

Joe Rogan 1:19:33 Mm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:19:33 It's incredible focus that they're actually having to do, and many of them have dyspraxia, so their bodies, it's hard for them to control their bodies, which is part of the speech issue. And so, um-I me-- I, I just think they're all gifted. I mean [chuckles] at this point.

Joe Rogan 1:19:49 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:19:49 That's-

Joe Rogan 1:19:49 But there's that thing that they kept talking about in the telepathy tapes where they all meet-

Julia Mossbridge 1:19:54 On the hill

Joe Rogan 1:19:54 ... psychically on the hill. Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:19:56 Yeah. Yeah, so I had this-

Joe Rogan 1:19:58 And they all talk about it independently. Like, it's not something that has been taught to them. Like, "Do you meet on the hill?" "Oh, yeah, I do." No, they've, they've talked about it independently, which is very weird.

Julia Mossbridge 1:20:07 Right, and one way, so I-

Joe Rogan 1:20:08 It's an odd concept

Julia Mossbridge 1:20:09 ... well, I, I turn on my scientist hat when I think about that, and I think, "Okay, well, they could have heard it on the telepathy tapes, and then they started talking about it." But that's not how it seemed to have worked.

Joe Rogan 1:20:21 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:20:21 But I, I have my own experience of, of that particular student. I forget whether I called him participant four or participant five at the end. He and I became, um... I had a good understanding of his mind, and we had some good conversations. And I had a dream one night where, um, he came to me, and all he did was show me this, like... It was like a, it was like a sun where you could see the sunspots, and it was just slowly turning. And it was beautiful, and he just gave it to me. And then the next day, I was working with him over Zoom, and so I asked Maria, I said, "Can I ask him a question?" You know, and she said, "Sure." And I said, "You know, last night you gave me something. You gave me a shape. What was the shape?" Because I didn't, I hadn't told Maria about the dream or anyone else. It was just my dream that I wrote in my journal. Um, and I was thinking he would say ball or sphere, and that would either be a good guess or it would be telepathy. But he goes [laughs] I can't e- I still can't get over this. "I sent you a, a pre-revolutionary orb with four stars on it slowly rotating."

Joe Rogan 1:21:34 What is a pre-revolutionary orb?

Julia Mossbridge 1:21:35 I don't fucking know. But [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:21:37 What does that mean?

Julia Mossbridge 1:21:37 I don't know. I mean, I th-

Joe Rogan 1:21:39 With four stars on it?

Julia Mossbridge 1:21:40 With four star- stars on it slowly rotating.

Joe Rogan 1:21:42 But that's not exactly what you saw in the dream.

Julia Mossbridge 1:21:44 Well, the, there were these sunspots. So see, he's... See, there's a poetic license that they have. I, I would say that's 80% correct. So it was slowly rotating, and there were these sunspots that I were calling, I was calling sunspots, he was calling stars.

Joe Rogan 1:22:03 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:22:04 And it was definitely an orb. What does pre-revolutionary mean? I don't know. They talk about, and I talk about in my book, "The Love Revolution," this idea that we're moving towards a time when we can actually use love in our lives to communicate and to connect people. But maybe that's what he means. Um, and that, uh, so that's one instance. So I sort of go, "Okay, that was interesting." And it kind of blew my mind that he used that language. He's very, he's just gifted at interesting language. And then this other non-speaker who worked with Natalia, who is the young woman you saw on the left who also works with a lot of spellers, um, just decided to start reading my mind like we did. Uh, he started... I asked Natalia, I said, "Can we just do an experiment where I'll be doing something, and I'll know what I'm doing at that time, and you just ask one of your students to, to read my mind? And then no one else will know what I'm doing, and she won't know what I'm doing." And so what I was doing was doing this remote viewing, uh, for a friend. And so I knew exactly what I was doing during that time and what I was thinking. But what I was thinking about was, remember that comet 3I/Atlas?

Joe Rogan 1:23:14 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:23:15 So I was thinking, I was kind of obsessively thinking about 3I/Atlas, like, "What is it? What's the deal?" You know? It was during that exact time-

Joe Rogan 1:23:21 Right

Julia Mossbridge 1:23:21 ... in December of last year. And he comes back with some stuff I don't understand, like poetic license. I call it poetic license, or just it's wrong, that I don't understand where it came from. And then he says, um, "Oh, and 3I/Atlas." And he talks about this owl that I saw in a video when I was doing the remote viewing. Um, and I was like... So Natalia didn't even know what 3I/Atlas was. She had to look it up. And the parent didn't know what 3I/Atlas was. And he spelled it 3-E-Y-E Atlas.

Joe Rogan 1:23:54 Oh.

Julia Mossbridge 1:23:54 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:23:54 Wow.

Julia Mossbridge 1:23:55 So it was phonetic.

Joe Rogan 1:23:57 Phonetic.

Julia Mossbridge 1:23:57 Yeah. And then later, a couple weeks ago, I get a text from Natalia that the same student, who apparently has now felt perfectly fine reading my mind, tapped into my mind when I was thinking about a medication that my stepmom was taking. And he used her name, which Natalia didn't know, and told me that she would be okay on the medication, that it would help her, and then told Natalia to text me, and so she did. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:24:21 The 3I/Atlas and writing it as E-Y-E-

Julia Mossbridge 1:24:26 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:24:26 ... is very strange.

Julia Mossbridge 1:24:27 Well, and the-

Joe Rogan 1:24:28 That's hard. That's h- 'Cause that's not how it's written anywhere.

Julia Mossbridge 1:24:32 Yeah, no.

Joe Rogan 1:24:32 Right? So the fact that he wrote it I-E-Y-E means he was hearing you.

Julia Mossbridge 1:24:36 It's how, it's how you would hear it.

Joe Rogan 1:24:38 What the hell?

Julia Mossbridge 1:24:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:24:40 How weird.

Julia Mossbridge 1:24:41 So there's no way I can explain it. Oh, also, he came up with my son's name, which Natalia did know, so that could've been from her. But still, he read her mind. I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:24:48 Did you ask him more about this pre-revolutionary orb with four stars? Did you, like, "Why did you give me that? What does that mean?"

Julia Mossbridge 1:24:55 [laughs] I wish I, I did. One thing I know with this particular participant is that he's so gifted, and his family asks him a lot, like, about, um, to do mediumship stuff, like, "What does Grandpa think about this?" Or whatever. And in fact-

Joe Rogan 1:25:11 Your grandpa's dead?

Julia Mossbridge 1:25:12 Yeah. Yeah, and to him, there's not a lot of difference. And so-

Joe Rogan 1:25:16 Right

Julia Mossbridge 1:25:16 ... and so, yeah. And, and they also, like, the, the grandmother, um, had a, had a lung transplant, and they asked who the donor was, and he i- identified a probable donor who lived in the area who had died that day. And they c- they won't know for a year if, if it was the actual donor because it takes time to learn who the donor is, but they're pretty sure that it probably is. ButSo-

Joe Rogan 1:25:40 Boy, if they, if it turns out that he's right, and you can't find out for another year-

Julia Mossbridge 1:25:45 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:25:45 ... or they won't release the information formally.

Julia Mossbridge 1:25:46 Well, you know, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:47 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:25:47 My husband had a double blind trust. Like, it just takes a while. Everyone has to agree that it, they wanna release the information.

Joe Rogan 1:25:52 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:25:53 But, um, in any case, he's just really good at this. Like, he's very skilled, and I didn't want him to feel like he was a show pony, and I wanted to get on with his lesson.

Joe Rogan 1:26:04 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:26:04 And so I didn't wanna ask other questions. I feel like, hmm, you know, he'll probably just show up in my dream and tell me at some point.

Joe Rogan 1:26:10 Yeah, but do you think that he even would think of himself as a show pony? Like, wouldn't it just be communication?

Julia Mossbridge 1:26:17 He doesn't, but I didn't... Also, I wanted... Like, I feel like it's-

Joe Rogan 1:26:22 Like, I would wanna know. Why'd you give me a skull?

Julia Mossbridge 1:26:23 Of course, I wanted to know, but also I was-

Joe Rogan 1:26:25 What's pre-revolutionary? What do you mean?

Julia Mossbridge 1:26:27 I, I agree. I mean, he, he's the kid who... I mean, there's, there are, there are some... We work with six kids. They're all gifted and amazing. But he's one that, um, showed up in telepathy tapes as, do you rem- I don't know if you remember this story. It's so wonderful. Um, his teacher said, "Maria," what she does is, like, they'll read a paragraph about a topic, and then he'll ask, you know, the students, like, "Okay, let's, you know, talk about the topic," just like in school.

Joe Rogan 1:26:52 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:26:52 But he has to spell out his answers. And so I think the topic was, um, like Gothic art. And so, um, [clears throat] excuse me, I'm gonna have a drink of water. So the topic of the paragraph was Gothic art, and she says, "So, you know, what was the purpose of Gothic art?" And he said, "Oh, it, it aphorizes the masses." And she says, "Uh, I don't think that's a word." And then she thinks, "Well, I better look it up," because he says it's a word. And so she looked it up, and it was only a word that was used in the 1600s. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:27:31 [laughs] Oh my God.

Julia Mossbridge 1:27:33 And, and, and, and so, and it means, like, it appeases them. So he-

Joe Rogan 1:27:37 That's crazy

Julia Mossbridge 1:27:37 ... he wrote out, "It means it calmed them down." And, and she said, "Well, how do you know about the word? It's n- it was only used in the 1600s." And he said, or the 1400s or something, and he writes out, "Oh, I was talking with a, a magistrate from that time period." [laughs] So, like, what, you know, what do you do with that?

Joe Rogan 1:27:59 What do you do with that?

Julia Mossbridge 1:28:01 Except for maybe state that there's something going on we don't understand, and it deserves more study, and these students shouldn't be dismissed.

Joe Rogan 1:28:11 Now, is he... I don't know if you've even asked this, but is he communicating with people in a different timeline, or he w- is he communicating with disembodied souls that no longer live in that timeline but still contain consciousness?

Julia Mossbridge 1:28:30 So, um, my experience of him and several other people who are non-speakers is that there's really not a lot of distinct... Like, it's hard for them to know if someone's alive or dead because they're not spending too much time in the physical re- They're not spending too much time... We spend all this time in the physical, and that's what seems to be real and important to us. But to them, it's like, when I brought up that someone he mentioned, he said, "Oh, I was just talking to the JP," who was another non-speaker. And I said, "Oh, were, were you sad when JP died?" And he said, "Oh, I didn't know he was dead." Um, because [laughs] ...

Joe Rogan 1:29:06 'Cause he was just talking to him.

Julia Mossbridge 1:29:07 He was just talking to him. And-

Joe Rogan 1:29:09 Whoa

Julia Mossbridge 1:29:09 ... and it does seem to be on this timeline because there's information that they say... Well, again, this is their experience, but their experience is that they get contemporary information. Like, JP saw his mother do this, and he's happy that she's doing that, and that w- happened two years after he died, so.

Joe Rogan 1:29:28 Wow. So JP was relaying information about his mom two years after he died.

Julia Mossbridge 1:29:38 He gets around. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:29:42 [laughs] God, that's so weird.

Julia Mossbridge 1:29:45 Oh, and that, and that was, that was this student's... It's so hard not to say his name. But that, that was this student's story about it.

Joe Rogan 1:29:51 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:29:51 But, like, as we know from people who study mediumship, like the, the Windbridge Institute or the Windbridge Research Center and places like that that study mediumship, there's a, this big argument about their experiences. They're talking to dead people. Are they actually just tapping into some kind of informational substrate that underlies everything, or are those the same thing?

Joe Rogan 1:30:10 Hmm. Right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:30:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:12 Right. So we, we're trying to differentiate so we can exist in this consciousness, in this form, in this reality, and we think that this is it. This is it. This is locked down. This is the box. And it's not.

Julia Mossbridge 1:30:26 It's apparently, it looks like it's not.

Joe Rogan 1:30:30 It seems like it's not to them. So then the question is, what is it about being non-speaking that allows them to have access to this?

Julia Mossbridge 1:30:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:41 Is it, you know, is it, like, one of those things where, you know, people that can't see, apparently they can hear much better.

Julia Mossbridge 1:30:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:49 You hear about that?

Julia Mossbridge 1:30:50 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:51 Right?

Julia Mossbridge 1:30:51 Sure. Sure. Um, you know, there was this cool article recently, it came out in The New York Times, about these singing mice. So Cold Spring Harbor researchers, um, are studying these mice that sing at a frequency that we can hear, humans can hear. All, all mice vocalize at ultrasonic frequencies, uh, but in, when they're close to each other. But when they're far away from each other, these singing mice will do this singing. And I guess they call it singing 'cause it sounds like singing to us. It's really c- really communication, of course. Um, but they wait, they take turns. You know, I'll sing and then you sing.

Joe Rogan 1:31:27 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:31:27 I'll sing and then you sing, just like you would in a conversation. And they looked at what the difference was between regular laboratory mice who don't do this and these singing mice. 'Cause they were thinking, "These ones have speech, and these ones just do this other thing."And there was very little difference. They saw, like, some more fibers, but that's it.

Joe Rogan 1:31:45 So when you say singing mice, what do they do?

Julia Mossbridge 1:31:48 Like-

Speaker 1:31:49 Jamie, Jamie's got a video

Julia Mossbridge 1:31:50 ... oh, yeah, play this.

Joe Rogan 1:31:51 Here we go. I don't hear anything.

Speaker 1:31:56 There it is.

Joe Rogan 1:32:00 Do you hear it?

Speaker 1:32:01 Yeah. You wanna hear that chirping? You wanna hear that chirping? Watch the, with the, with the audio wave here. It'll pop up here in a-

Julia Mossbridge 1:32:07 Look at the spectrogram on the left.

Speaker 1:32:09 It's like it starts right after the four-second mark. That.

Joe Rogan 1:32:16 God, I barely hear that. [laughs] I need to turn my thing up.

Speaker 1:32:19 I'll try it again.

Joe Rogan 1:32:20 Oh, oh, my thing's really low. Oh, yeah. Now I hear it. Okay, that's a... Okay, my, my volume was really low.

Speaker 1:32:28 That's what I mean. It's not loud at all.

Joe Rogan 1:32:29 So that's singing mice. They just make a little chirp chirp.

Julia Mossbridge 1:32:32 Yeah. And so the reason I'm bringing that up is because if we can understand what gives mice the capacity to have this kind of communication and other, other mice the capacity that, that they don't have it, maybe we can understand non-speaking autism versus, you know, sort of speaking autism or people who can... are neurotypical. But w- it turns out that the difference just is, uh, in degree. In other words, just a few more fiber tracks. Um, and so that's why I keep saying I don't think it's about something that's atrophied. It's just like a slight difference allows us to speak. Most people have that ability to speak. People who don't are, I think, very much like that. You get to be in contact with this information that is generally sorted out if you're using language more actively.

Joe Rogan 1:33:19 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:33:19 Like you're, like, I almost think that, that babies are probably telepathic. I think... I'm wondering if that's how we learn language. I keep thinking, like, we have so few exposures compared to an LLM. We have very few exposures of, like, you know, the death whistle.

Joe Rogan 1:33:36 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:33:36 Like how many times do you hear that before you have to learn it? If you're a baby, I have to, like, know that when you say apple, you're talking about the thing in your hand-

Joe Rogan 1:33:44 Right

Julia Mossbridge 1:33:44 ... and not the 8,000 other things that are going on.

Joe Rogan 1:33:46 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:33:47 And I don't hear it that many times before I get that that's what an apple is. And so-

Joe Rogan 1:33:50 Can you imagine if you could just go back and be a baby again before you learned language-

Julia Mossbridge 1:33:55 Oh my God

Joe Rogan 1:33:55 ... just to, just like, just to exist and understand what thinking is like?

Julia Mossbridge 1:34:00 Well, I think, and then you wouldn't be able to understand it, 'cause everything would be like William James said, like blooming, buzzing confusion. I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:34:06 Right, but it would probably... If you could just... I mean, it- if you could access that memory-

Julia Mossbridge 1:34:12 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:34:12 ... to a time where you didn't understand language, but could you even do that?

Julia Mossbridge 1:34:16 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:34:16 The, the thing is, like, the problem is you're, you already understand language, so how would you even be able to access it?

Julia Mossbridge 1:34:21 It's like those movie fantasies where you go back in time, and you have all the wisdom you have now, but you get to experience being a kid again.

Joe Rogan 1:34:26 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:34:27 Like, that's the fantasy. That would be amazing. I th-

Joe Rogan 1:34:29 That's a coward's dream.

Julia Mossbridge 1:34:31 [laughs] But isn't it nice sometimes-

Joe Rogan 1:34:34 No

Julia Mossbridge 1:34:34 ... to be a coward? Nope. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:34:35 Nope. That's a coward's dream because it's like no one wants to make the mistakes that they made in high school. Boy, if I could go back now, I'd be the king of the school. Like...

Julia Mossbridge 1:34:42 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:34:43 No, you'd be a cheater.

Julia Mossbridge 1:34:45 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:34:45 You'd be playing video games on God mode.

Julia Mossbridge 1:34:47 I mean, that's how I made it through trauma as a, as a kid. That's how I made it through abuse. I mean, like, that time travel therapy is a thing.

Joe Rogan 1:34:56 So going back and, like, reliving your life as an adult who knows better-

Julia Mossbridge 1:35:00 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:35:00 ... and has information.

Julia Mossbridge 1:35:02 It really helps people.

Joe Rogan 1:35:03 Interesting.

Julia Mossbridge 1:35:04 Because you can love yourself from the future.

Joe Rogan 1:35:06 I think you're talking about a different thing, right?

Julia Mossbridge 1:35:08 Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:35:08 You're talking about abuse and getting over abuse. What I'm talking about is just general sucking at life.

Julia Mossbridge 1:35:14 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:35:14 Like, boy, if I could go back and do it again, I'd be so much better.

Julia Mossbridge 1:35:17 Oh, I understand. That's different.

Joe Rogan 1:35:19 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:35:19 No, this isn't going back and doing it again. This is almost like the opposite. This is like you're still there back experiencing it, making the bad choice or abuse or whatever it is, but then your wiser self, who's survived and who gets that it was a bad choice or who gets that it was abusive, you go back in time mentally, and you see yourself. So you're still there doing it, but you're, it's like a second character is introduced-

Joe Rogan 1:35:41 Yes

Julia Mossbridge 1:35:41 ... in the timeline. You see yourself, and you go, "You know what? You're gonna learn from this. Things are gonna get better. You are loved. It's gonna be okay." And that works regardless of it, whether it's a bad choice or whether it's abuse. It's like you're doing the best you can no matter what.

Joe Rogan 1:35:59 Right. That, that seems to make sense, like you're a human being that understands language back then. If you go back to being a baby-

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:09 Oh, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:36:10 ... then you don't know language, but then people would be talking. So what would you hear? What would the sound-

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:15 I think you'd feel things telepathically.

Joe Rogan 1:36:17 Right. You would probably feel their intention or feel where they're coming from.

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:20 You feel their vibes.

Joe Rogan 1:36:22 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:22 It's like you know. Like, you know how babies are... Even dogs will, like, someone will give off vibes, and they'll just be like, "Nah, nope."

Joe Rogan 1:36:28 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:29 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:36:29 Yeah, yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:30 I think it's like that.

Joe Rogan 1:36:31 Yeah, dogs are really good at that.

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36:33 Some dogs, not my dog.

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:34 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:36:34 I have, I have a golden retriever. Everybody's the best.

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:36 Oh, everyone's awesome. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:36:37 He thinks everybody's amazing. [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:38 Oh, no wonder you can have, like, a general in your brain. You have a golden retriever who will love you forever. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:36:43 Oh, he's the best. He loves... Everybody's his best friend. Like, if he was in the room, he would just go from you, get pet by you, go over to Jamie, get pet by Jamie, come over to me.

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:51 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:36:51 He would just make the rounds.

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:52 You should bring him.

Joe Rogan 1:36:54 I do sometimes. He's on the floor. It's the carpet.

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:56 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:36:57 Look. See right there?

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:58 That-

Joe Rogan 1:36:58 That's Marshall

Julia Mossbridge 1:36:59 ... oh, he's wonderful.

Joe Rogan 1:37:00 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 1:37:01 [laughs] Golden retrievers are the best emotional support animals.

Joe Rogan 1:37:03 Oh, they're so sweet.

Julia Mossbridge 1:37:04 They just love people.

Joe Rogan 1:37:05 Yeah, they love everybody. He, I have a, a little dog too, a little, um, King Charles Cavalier Spaniel.

Julia Mossbridge 1:37:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37:11 And, uh, all he does is, like, attack Marshall, like bite his face, and Marshall's so tolerant. He just lays there. This dog's licking his ear, licking his eyeballs, licking his face, and just kissing him and biting him, and he just never gets upset, never growls, never, never says, "Get off me." Just deals with it.

Julia Mossbridge 1:37:30 I love that.

Joe Rogan 1:37:30 Oh, he's the sweetest.

Julia Mossbridge 1:37:32 Yeah. I want a dog.

Joe Rogan 1:37:33 They're the best.

Julia Mossbridge 1:37:34 I know.

Joe Rogan 1:37:34 I love them. I had a weird dr- dream about my little dog. My little dog was so little that I could hold him in my hand. He's not that little. He's pretty little. He's like that big, but he was so little that I could hold him in my hand, and he was running into traffic, and so I had to run into traffic and risk dying to grab this dog and pick him up and hold onto him a- and somehow or another not get, not get hit by a car.

Julia Mossbridge 1:37:56 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 1:37:57 It was a very strange dream.

Julia Mossbridge 1:37:58 Was this recent?

Joe Rogan 1:37:59 Mm-hmm. Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 1:38:00 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:38:00 Hey, but he didn't even look like him. He looked like a chihuahua, but I knew it was Charlie.

Julia Mossbridge 1:38:05 Huh. Isn't that funny how in dreams you just know it's someone, even it could be someone else?

Joe Rogan 1:38:09 Yeah, I knew it was Charlie, but it didn't look like Charlie 'cause he was just so tiny. He was like a mouse. Like, literally I, I was holding him in my hand like a, like a little baby mouse.

Julia Mossbridge 1:38:16 You know, that reminds me of that, that dream quality of, uh, of someone being someone, like having the essence of them, but not-

Joe Rogan 1:38:24 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 1:38:24 ... looking like them.

Joe Rogan 1:38:25 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:38:25 Reminds me also of something I've noticed in the non-speakers, where they're not very good at labeling animals. Like, like, like camels and kangaroos might be the same.

Joe Rogan 1:38:35 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:38:35 You know, it's like, it's like the physical form, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:38:39 Is not what's important

Julia Mossbridge 1:38:40 [laughs] It's just not at what's important.

Joe Rogan 1:38:41 It's the essence.

Julia Mossbridge 1:38:41 It's like that feeling-

Joe Rogan 1:38:43 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 1:38:43 ... on the inside. It's-

Joe Rogan 1:38:44 What the thing is

Julia Mossbridge 1:38:44 ... to me it's like proof of a soul or something. I don't, I really think we ought to start studying souls scientifically, because if we can show that... And this is, I didn't think we were gonna talk about this, but, ah, well, I'm sure that happens a lot, but [both laugh] But if we could start understanding what a soul is.

Joe Rogan 1:39:04 Right. How would you quantify it?

Julia Mossbridge 1:39:05 Yeah, I don't know. Right? I mean, I think, I think that's-

Joe Rogan 1:39:08 Maybe it's one of those things that you just can't-

Julia Mossbridge 1:39:11 Maybe

Joe Rogan 1:39:11 ... or you can't study

Julia Mossbridge 1:39:12 But if you understa- I guess I'm always coming back to the informational substrate, 'cause that's, like, my favorite concept. But if you understand that underneath... If this is true, I sort of think this is true, that underneath all of what we call physical reality, so space, time, matter, energy, is this informational substrate that it's almost, like, has all the information from the beginning of the universe to the end of the universe, like, all of it, including, like, what you're thinking, feeling, et cetera at this moment or other moments. And if you could, I guess, insert information into it and read information from it, then I think maybe that means you're have a soul. Maybe that's what a soul is, is that which, you know, inserts information into that informational substrate, so you change things in the world, and reads things from it. You perceive things in the world. And maybe if you can do both of those things, it means that's what a soul is.

Joe Rogan 1:40:18 What makes you think that there's an informational substrate that contains all the information from the beginning of time to the end of time?

Julia Mossbridge 1:40:25 [laughs] Yes, that's a very good question. Um, it's just a feeling I have. [both laugh]

Joe Rogan 1:40:33 I'm not saying you're wrong.

Julia Mossbridge 1:40:35 I'm not saying I'm wrong either, but I'm not saying I'm right. It's a-

Joe Rogan 1:40:37 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 1:40:37 ... it, it's aesthetically pleasing to me to f- to... Oh, okay. It does seem like people, whether they're non-speakers or people who are particularly gifted at remote viewing or whatever, can go to different times in space-time, or different places in space, different times in, in time, and get information that seems like in this physical world you shouldn't be able to get, right? I mean, that's what-

Joe Rogan 1:41:03 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 1:41:03 ... I've been studying, and, and I've shown that that's the case at a great, at, at a, at a rate greater than chance, especially if people are in a place of self-transcendence or feeling love.

Joe Rogan 1:41:13 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:41:14 And so that suggests that there's this sort of link about what we call God or love or universal love or this ineffable force. I don't know what to call it. Universal love, I'll call it. Um, it suggests that there's a link between sort of what happens in the universe and what we experience and what we do and what we intend, and this universal love force. So I wanna, as a scientist, I'm like, how do you make a physics of love? So I wanna think about it as something that I can think of as what I could do physics or math on, and that would... The way that comes out is, like, this informational soup or something that has all that information there, and then it is, we play with it throughout our lives.

Joe Rogan 1:42:06 Right. But how would it have all the information from now to the end?

Julia Mossbridge 1:42:10 Because time-

Joe Rogan 1:42:11 Time-

Julia Mossbridge 1:42:11 ... time doesn't work in this linear way that we're used to experiencing, right? Like, that's what precognition is showing us. If, if you can get information about future events at a rate above chance, and I can do that, and other people can do that, and, and actually most people can do that according to the statistics, and they're just not conscious of it-

Joe Rogan 1:42:30 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 1:42:30 ... you know, if your physiology is changing, then that means that sort of information can leak backwards from the future.

Joe Rogan 1:42:37 Right. But can it leak backwards an infinite amount of time? Like, could it link backwards all the way to the end of the universe where it dies of heat death?

Julia Mossbridge 1:42:45 And so Jamie's bringing up this-

Joe Rogan 1:42:48 Oh, the Akashic records here, right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:42:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:42:49 I was gonna bring that up. Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:42:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:42:50 It's a modern esoteric term, the idea of a cosmic library that stores every event, thought, feeling, and intention that has ever occurred, often said to be accessible through psychic or mystical means. Um, that's, that has ever occurred, but what about forever in time, in the future, the potential future? Yeah. So in theosophy and anthroposophy?

Julia Mossbridge 1:43:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:43:15 Uh, what is that word?

Julia Mossbridge 1:43:16 Anthroposophy.

Joe Rogan 1:43:17 What is that word?

Julia Mossbridge 1:43:18 What does it mean?

Joe Rogan 1:43:18 Yeah, what does that mean?

Julia Mossbridge 1:43:19 I don't know. I don't get why the anthroposophy. There's all these anthroposophists, and they're related to the Waldorf people, but I don't totally understand it.

Joe Rogan 1:43:26 It's Perplexity, our AI sponsor, trying to flex.

Julia Mossbridge 1:43:29 Oh, okay, cool.

Joe Rogan 1:43:30 That's what it's doing. It's flexing on us.

Julia Mossbridge 1:43:31 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:43:31 Showing us how smart it is. Uh, they're described as non-physical compendium of all universal events, thoughts, words, emotions, and intents spanning past, present, and potential future. So potential future meaning forever. So the idea that we're somehow or another, when these people are able to sense something that's going to happen or know about an image that's going to be displayed, that this small leap in the future of a few seconds or a minute or whatever it isIt's also accessible forever. It's like there's no distance that's-

Julia Mossbridge 1:44:10 Ty, if you just think about time as a landscape. Imagine time as a landscape. There's a mountain, there's a waterfall-

Joe Rogan 1:44:17 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 1:44:17 ... there's a tree. And we're used to just walking in, in single file-

Joe Rogan 1:44:23 Right

Julia Mossbridge 1:44:23 ... in one direction in the landscape. But if you fly a plane above, you could say, "Oh, I see on the other side of the mountain there's this waterfall." And so flying the plane above is like doing any of these mystical practices, like with the Akashic records or doing remote viewing-

Joe Rogan 1:44:38 Right

Julia Mossbridge 1:44:38 ... or a- accessing that information, accessing the landscape in a different way. Not through this linear, um, sort of physical dimension or reality or whatever we wanna call it, but through some other... Like, maybe you go to a different dimension. I don't know h- how to think about it mathematically. Maybe you go to a different dimension.

Joe Rogan 1:44:54 Well, the, the thing about memory and consciousness and just the idea of future and time at all, everything is made out of matter, right? W- we, we are made out of atoms.

Julia Mossbridge 1:45:06 Well, ideas aren't made out of matter.

Joe Rogan 1:45:08 Not- no, but I'm gonna get to that. So the idea is that if we are made out of atoms, well, that means subatomic particles exist inside of us. Subatomic particles are made outta magic. Like, what they do is they exist in superposition, they're moving, and they're still at the same time. They, they can be quantumly connected to other particles that are nowhere near. So why wouldn't we think consciousness that exists, supposedly at least, if not exists, is tuned in by our own minds, that somehow or another that's probably connected in some weird spooky action at a distance way?

Julia Mossbridge 1:45:48 Well, it's not even weird. As you said, it's, it's exactly what we're made of.

Joe Rogan 1:45:53 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:45:53 So we call it weird because we're trapped in this-

Joe Rogan 1:45:57 Monkey mind

Julia Mossbridge 1:45:57 ... [laughs] we're, we're trapped in this, like, linear-

Joe Rogan 1:45:59 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 1:46:00 ... "Oh, it works like this."

Joe Rogan 1:46:01 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:46:01 "Oh, i- the ball will always go in this direction." We're trapped in that, but we are made of quantum particles, as you said, quantum wave particles. And even, by the way, at the larger level than the subatomic particles, you have chemicals in our body that are actually, you know, in quantum coherence or super- superposition.

Joe Rogan 1:46:20 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:46:21 And so, and in birds and in leaves. I mean, that's how photosynthesis works. So don't get me started on quantum computing, because [laughs] I get a little pissed off about this because... Okay, I know we were talking about consciousness. Should I-

Joe Rogan 1:46:37 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:46:37 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:46:38 Go ahead.

Julia Mossbridge 1:46:38 All right, I'll just go on my little train.

Joe Rogan 1:46:39 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 1:46:40 Oh, my, my heart rate is [laughs] going wild.

Joe Rogan 1:46:42 Is it?

Julia Mossbridge 1:46:43 Yeah, because this is, I'm r- this is really something that is really important to me for some reason that I don't understand.

Joe Rogan 1:46:49 Quantum computing is?

Julia Mossbridge 1:46:51 Our mistake. Our, our current mistake with quantum computing.

Joe Rogan 1:46:54 Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 1:46:55 What, what I believe to be the current mistake.

Joe Rogan 1:46:56 Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 1:46:57 The misunderstanding. So a leaf is, is using essentially quantum computing to do photosynthesis, um, in a way that we don't, that we can't replicate right now. I mean, at room temperature, above room temperature if it's out in the sun, right? Um, it's keeping these, uh, uh, chemicals in superposition. Um, it is able to trap energy from photons, uh, better than anything that we have. It's, um, it's doing quantum computing without a lot of expense. So when we go and we decide that we want, we wanna be the first in quantum computing, and we're gonna invest all this money in, like, supercooling systems and, uh, very difficult to understand error correction methods and all these things, working on trapping single particles at the subatomic level, and that's how we're gonna have to do it to make it, to force it into these patterns. Like, come on, we're doing something wrong. Like, a leaf can do it outside in the sun and does it all the time.

Joe Rogan 1:48:10 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:48:10 We're doing something wrong. So, so, so I started thinking that way, like, 12 years ago, and, uh, got really passionate about photons and how photons are kind of like this, almost like a link... [laughs] This is another thing that I'm gonna say you're gonna be like, "Why do you think this?" But regardless, it came into my mind that photons are kind of like a link between mind and matter. Like, they're not really, like you said, they're made of magic. They're not really, um, matter. They don't have any mass. You know, and they're actually, they're bosonic particles. So there's two ty- types of particles. One's a, uh, one is a fermionic, named after Enrico Fermi, and those are things we're used to, like protons, neutrons, electrons. Um, and then there's bosonic particles, which are things that generally, I think they, none of them have any mass, and they're very different. Uh, like the Higgs boson is one. Photons is another example. Photons are another example. I think there's a version of helium that's also bosonic. But what makes it bosonic is, um, it could be in the same place at the same time as another bosonic particle, and then another one and another one and another one. So, like, they kind of don't exist in physical reality. It's like we have this idea that two electrons can't be in the same place at the same time, and they can't, but these can.

Joe Rogan 1:49:32 Mm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:49:33 And, and so it's almost like they're interacting in another dimension that's less physical. And the, it seems just interesting to me that we think a lot about what a photon would feel, and I just, I just keep thinking that there's some connection between what we call mind and what we call brain that has to do with photons. So anyway, I got obsessed with photons, and I started thinking about, um, the double slit experiment. Do, do your, does your audience know what that is?

Joe Rogan 1:50:06 Um, probably, but a refresher would probably be good for everybody.

Julia Mossbridge 1:50:09 Okay. Yeah. So [laughs] when I first told my husband about the double slit experiment, he's an artist, he's like, "Ha ha ha ha ha. Double slit." [laughs] I'm like, "That never occurred to me." 'Cause I'm like all ready to explain it to him, and he's like, couldn't get off that. But anyway, it was pretty-

Joe Rogan 1:50:28 Beavis and Butt-Head.

Julia Mossbridge 1:50:29 Yeah. [laughs] You said double slit. So, uh, imagine there's like a, like a flashlight at one end of a tube, and then there's like a, um, a photon detector at the other end of the tube. And in between the flashlight and the photon detector are two slits, and they could be in cardboard or metal or whatever. So there's two slits here, and they're very skinny. And the reason I say they're skinny is because they're so skinny that if you turn down the light enough, only one photon's gonna get through, and it's gonna have to choose between this slit or that slit. And the weird thing is, if you do this over time, you'll see the pattern at the photon detector at the other end of the tube, it'll look like an interference pattern. What does that mean? Oh, look at you.

Joe Rogan 1:51:13 Yeah, here it is.

Julia Mossbridge 1:51:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:51:15 So the electron beam gun, electrons goes through the double slit, and at the end of it you get this very bizarre pattern.

Julia Mossbridge 1:51:22 Yeah, and this pattern ... And so I was talking about photons, but yeah, you can do it with electrons, you can do it with larger particles. But, um, and that does, and it doesn't matter. But, um, if you ... Here, that one double slit up there is really good. That's a good one. Yes. So there's two, two pieces of it that are weird. The first bullet up there that you can't see on the screen, but is gonna say that when you send a single particle one at a time, it has to choose between the slits, but it still interf- seems to interfere with itself in space. It's like it goes through both slits. One particle goes in two places at once. It's called non-local in space. It's non-local. In other words, it's not behaving like we're used to. It's not behaving like a billiard ball. It's going t- one thing is going through two slits. So I kept looking at this and saying, "Well, it might be non-local in space, but if it, it could be non-local in time." And by that I mean that if you put electron or a photon in there, it could be interfering from, uh, the future, like with another electron or another photon that happens in the future. And there's actually an experiment you can do to test that, and I wanted to do the experiment. So the b- so first of all, did you understand what I just said?

Joe Rogan 1:52:45 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:52:45 Okay. So the way you could test that is, look, if the photon that's gonna ... If the photon, I'm just, okay, I'm, now I'm gonna pretend I'm a photon. I don't really like thinking of photons traveling 'cause I don't think they really travel. But anyway, I'm gonna pretend I'm a photon and I just got shot out of this flashlight or this light bulb. I'm traveling towards the slit, and I interfere with another photon that wasn't just shot out of the light bulb, it's going to be shot out of the light bulb in the future, but it's just sort of hanging out there because it's floating around in time.

Joe Rogan 1:53:20 Is, is the actual light able to do one photon at a time?

Julia Mossbridge 1:53:24 Yeah, if you turn it down enough, it is.

Joe Rogan 1:53:26 How could you measure whether it's one photon?

Julia Mossbridge 1:53:28 You calculate, you can just calculate the expected amount of light that should come through with the detector.

Joe Rogan 1:53:35 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:53:35 And-

Joe Rogan 1:53:35 It's that accurate, down to a single photon?

Julia Mossbridge 1:53:38 You, yeah, you can calculate based on the speed of light and the emission and the de- where the detector is-

Joe Rogan 1:53:45 Okay

Julia Mossbridge 1:53:45 ... how much ... Yeah. So you can turn it down to that level. Um, and I know, I, I think you, I think it, this experiment's like almost, I think it's 100 years old. Uh, so they were able to do that way back then. And so imagine this photon gets shot out of this flashlight, it interferes with another photon just like it from the future. Just imagine that's possible. If that's true, then in experiments where you have a lot of photons available to interact from the future, like in other words, the light is on for a long time-

Joe Rogan 1:54:20 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 1:54:20 ... the interference pattern should show a different sort of pattern than if you don't have very many photons in the future, so the light's not gonna be on a long time. So the experiment I wanted to do, and that I did, was look, just randomly determine how long this experiment's gonna last. How long are you gonna leave this light on into the future? And then look at the very first period of time. Like look at the first 30 seconds, and after 30 seconds you randomly choose, are you gonna turn this light off or are you gonna leave it on for another two minutes? In the first 30 seconds, can you determine what the choice is gonna be based on the pattern? If you can, that means this thing is interfering in time. And it turns out you could. So I ended up replicating that and replicating that and replicating that. And then a friend at UC Berkeley, uh, who teaches the advanced physics lab there, said, "I wanna set up my own equipment, do the exact same experiment. I'm gonna run it over a year, and I'm gonna see if I get the same result." So he sent me his data. He walked away. I analyzed the data, and I figured out the equation that relates the amount of future time after the decision to the, um, the, the detection pattern before the decision. And so that's the kind of result that I think is gonna actually shift quantum computing, because you're working at room temperature with groups of photons rather than trying to trap them, and you're treating them more like a giant unit, this unit in time, rather than this unit in space. And so actually, can I, can I name drop my new company?

Joe Rogan 1:56:04 Yeah. What was the results of his data?

Julia Mossbridge 1:56:06 Oh, um, that the same result happened. I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:56:10 So it really was that somehow or another the photons were able to predict the future.

Julia Mossbridge 1:56:15 Yeah. Well, if you think of a box ... Okay, so think of a really deep well. Let's think of a well-

Joe Rogan 1:56:21 Uh-huh

Julia Mossbridge 1:56:21 ... with water in the bottom.You cannot see. You can't, like, look over the edge. It's so deep, you don't know how deep it is. So you might drop something in it, and then you listen for the ding, and you can have a sense of how deep it is. It's a little like this. You can't know in, sort of with our eyes, how long that experiment's gonna last. But you're getting a little reverberation from the future in the photons. It's like they're telling on themselves. Like-

Joe Rogan 1:56:50 Hmm

Julia Mossbridge 1:56:50 ... "We've got a lot of future photons to interfere with, so we're gonna behave in this way," or, "We don't have so many future photons to interfere with. We're gonna behave in this other way."

Joe Rogan 1:56:58 One of the things that people are very familiar about that know about the double-slit experiment is the idea of the observer and how the observer changes reality.

Julia Mossbridge 1:57:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:57:10 What do you think is going on there?

Julia Mossbridge 1:57:13 The word change is super telling because when you think of... When you were asking about timelines before. So, uh, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:57:23 It affects-

Julia Mossbridge 1:57:23 Hey, can you pull, can you pull up, like, a picture of timelines and, and, and in retro- Like a picture of retrocausality. Can you look at retrocausality and put, put up a picture? I wanna, wanna say something about the word change because-

Joe Rogan 1:57:35 Okay

Julia Mossbridge 1:57:35 ... we have this idea of, um, it was supposed to be like this, whatever it is. It was supposed to be like, uh, that's a kind of a complicated one. Uh... Oh, gosh, there's all these complicated ones. The, there's, the, look, that path diagram. Bum, bum, bum. No, that's... Why are they all so complicated? Let's do this. No.

Joe Rogan 1:58:05 Well, what is it about them that's so complicated?

Julia Mossbridge 1:58:08 Well, because people don't really know how it works, and so they make all these different pictures of it. Okay, I'm just... Let's ignore that. I'm just gonna make a picture in our heads.

Joe Rogan 1:58:14 Okay. Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 1:58:15 Imagine a figure eight.

Joe Rogan 1:58:17 All right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:58:17 So we normally think of things just going like this. Figure eight goes, oh, I go back like that.

Joe Rogan 1:58:21 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:58:22 I get the information here-

Joe Rogan 1:58:24 Infinity

Julia Mossbridge 1:58:24 ... and I bring it back. Exactly. And so it's m- more like time is doing that, or events are doing that, right?

Joe Rogan 1:58:29 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:58:30 So I guess, um, what was your original question, though? I was, got obsessed with r- pictures of e- oh, timelines, change.

Joe Rogan 1:58:36 Observer.

Julia Mossbridge 1:58:37 Yeah. So the thing about changing something is if it was al- if it was... I like to use the word influence because if it was already always going to happen, you didn't change anything. It's not like you're on a different timeline. It's that the future influenced the past.

Joe Rogan 1:58:59 Right, but the observer influences reality in the results of the tests.

Julia Mossbridge 1:59:05 But-

Joe Rogan 1:59:05 So if you do an experiment-

Julia Mossbridge 1:59:07 Yeah, no, I... Okay, so let me explain that effect and then-

Joe Rogan 1:59:09 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 1:59:09 ... so with the double-slit experiment, the result is if you, that, that indicates this, if you put a little detector by one of the slits 'cause you say, "I'm gonna trap one of those. I'm gonna trap a photon or an electron. I'm gonna figure out which slit it's going through."

Joe Rogan 1:59:24 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 1:59:24 So you put a detector at one of the two slits. If it, if you get a bing, it means it went through that. If you don't get a bing, it went through the other one, right? What happens is the actual outcome now looks different. You don't get the same interference pattern. You get a single slit interference pattern, as if it didn't, it wasn't non-local in space or time. It didn't interfere with itself, and it just kinda, like, went through like a billiard ball.

Joe Rogan 1:59:48 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 1:59:49 And so that's where the observer effect comes in. There's this idea that you have observed, you've tried to trap the photon at a, at, during its flight. So that's the other reason why I think that, um, mind and photons are related, is because there's something about the knowledge. I al- almost, again, think of it informationally. But it's like y- you just gained knowledge about this system.

Joe Rogan 2:00:14 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:00:14 As our knowledge mechanisms of our mind. You've just gained knowledge, and it has now changed. It's almost like the photons are part of mind, so of course mind is affecting mind.

Joe Rogan 2:00:26 And so mind observing the photon changes the path of the photon.

Julia Mossbridge 2:00:31 It changes mind, and it-

Joe Rogan 2:00:32 Changes the behavior of the photon, changes what we see as a r- a result.

Julia Mossbridge 2:00:37 It's like m- like affects like. So if photons are like mind and mind interacts with mind, now both minds are different.

Joe Rogan 2:00:44 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:00:44 You have gained this knowledge. The photon has gone into this different place.

Joe Rogan 2:00:48 Hmm. I- it's, the, the problem with it, it's so weird and so weird to think of, that in observing something changes it, that it makes people start to consider, okay, like, if that's the case, how much of observing the known universe is a part of it existing?

Julia Mossbridge 2:01:15 It, all, all of it. It's like this figure eight. It's, that's the thing, is that that's just a great example, it seems to me, of mind observing mind. Your mind and my mind will never be the same after observing each other, just like with e- every other person we meet, right?

Joe Rogan 2:01:29 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:01:29 We're constantly changing. We're, uh, oh, like influencing. We're constantly influencing each other.

Joe Rogan 2:01:34 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 2:01:35 And it is like this figure eight thing, carrying it back.

Joe Rogan 2:01:39 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:01:40 So I don't think there's any difference. It's just that photons behave more like our minds, so they're showing it to us, and electrons and, you know, anything that's doing the quantum thing.

Joe Rogan 2:01:53 And so why do you think that we have a bad understanding of quantum computing?

Julia Mossbridge 2:02:00 Oh, I mean, no, I shouldn't-

Joe Rogan 2:02:01 This is how we started this.

Julia Mossbridge 2:02:02 Yeah, not that we have a bad understanding of quantum. We have great understanding of what we are currently considering quantum computing.

Joe Rogan 2:02:09 Or maybe there's just, the way we're talking about it?

Julia Mossbridge 2:02:12 It's the approach.

Joe Rogan 2:02:12 The approach.

Julia Mossbridge 2:02:12 No.

Joe Rogan 2:02:12 Okay.

Julia Mossbridge 2:02:12 It's the approach. It's this approach of we're gonna trap a single particle/wave. We're gonna trap a single photon. We're gonna trap a single ion. We're going toHave it behave in ways repeatedly according to these commands, these gates that they, these gating functions that they do. [clears throat] Um, we understand that. The problem is it, it seems to me it's forcing something that shouldn't behave that way, that doesn't naturally behave that way, to behave that way. It's like we're trying to imitate classical computers with quantum computers, and it, and we're not taking into account these group classical level properties that clearly a leaf uses when it's doing photosynthesis. It has to. It's not building a supercooling system and, you know, trapping ions. It's functioning in this really wet physiological environment, and it's doing just fine with quantum com- computation. So it's more like the approach needs to become more naturalistic, and I think it needs to take into account these non-local, temporarily non-local phenomena like the, like the one I discovered.

Joe Rogan 2:03:27 Well, aren't they considering that at least partially, at least it's being discussed, that this many worlds interpretation of the results of quantum computing, that something's happening that you can't account for in the known universe? Something's happening with the scale of the equations that it's able to solve in the time span in which it's able to solve. It's not possible that the same sort of process is going on that would occur if it was happening right here and right now, that it seems that it's gathering the computing power-

Julia Mossbridge 2:03:59 Yeah. That's great. That's the whole point of quantum computing is-

Joe Rogan 2:04:02 Right

Julia Mossbridge 2:04:02 ... to capture that. And yes, it could be multiple universes. It could also be retrocausality, and people, some people don't like the retrocausality answer. I think that's actually more likely. And-

Joe Rogan 2:04:12 So the retrocausality thing would be that all time is happening in this figure eight loop, and then somehow or another, this quantum computer is able to tap into that and have this infinite access to all potential future and past information.

Julia Mossbridge 2:04:27 Right. And then I just think it's easier to do quantum computing if you take into account, [clears throat] excuse me, if you take into account this retro- retrocausality piece and these group properties of particles at room temperature that can tell us about the future.

Joe Rogan 2:04:47 So the idea that this, uh, does that include a many worlds interpretation of the universe? Does that, is that also there? I mean, is it possible that not only do you get the time of all time available instantaneously, that it, 'cause it is a part of a loop, and somehow or another a quantum computer is able to tap into that, but not just this timeline and this loop in this universe, but multiple universes, infinite in fact, that all of their time is also available?

Julia Mossbridge 2:05:24 You know, maybe. You... The thing is, [clears throat] sorry, I'm just gonna have to drink more water.

Joe Rogan 2:05:28 No, that's okay. There's water there in the glass, too, if you want.

Julia Mossbridge 2:05:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:05:31 Want some of this coffee?

Julia Mossbridge 2:05:33 I get so excited about this stuff. The thing is [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:05:35 Good. Great.

Julia Mossbridge 2:05:37 The thing is you don't need both, and so it could be both. And I was just thinking this morning about how it could be both. It could be both. You could have these loops with the information retrocausally bringing it back, and, and you could have multiple universes of those loops.

Joe Rogan 2:05:53 Infinite loops.

Julia Mossbridge 2:05:54 But they're kinda, it's kind of like saying, like, you know how physicists really like to be, to simplify things? It's kind of like saying, um, we could do whatever we want. We could pick a, paint a picture of a fairy who also does something, you know, and then there's a gnome over here that does something. But if you don't need those things, you, you throw 'em out, right? And so it's like usually either people talk about multiple universes or retrocausality, but not both because they're solving the same problem.

Joe Rogan 2:06:24 Hmm. But it is possible that even with our little monkey minds trying to understand retrocausality, that we're not taking into account the possibility that retrocausality might exist in infinite timelines.

Julia Mossbridge 2:06:38 Yep. Uh, I'm certainly-

Joe Rogan 2:06:40 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 2:06:40 ... certainly the universe works in ways that we don't [laughs] understand.

Joe Rogan 2:06:44 And the deeper we look, the more confused we get.

Julia Mossbridge 2:06:47 Yeah. And also, you find yourself looking right into mind. I, I really do think there's something to the more you look into physics, the more you look into mind. I mean, all the, the physicists from... Did you ever read that book, uh, How the Hippies Saved Physics?

Joe Rogan 2:07:02 No.

Julia Mossbridge 2:07:03 Oh.

Joe Rogan 2:07:04 Hmm?

Julia Mossbridge 2:07:04 Sweet.

Joe Rogan 2:07:05 Yeah?

Julia Mossbridge 2:07:05 Yeah. Sweet, good book about, like, the '70s and S1 and physicists-

Joe Rogan 2:07:08 Oh, okay

Julia Mossbridge 2:07:09 ... and realizing, like-

Joe Rogan 2:07:10 That's the real hippies. That's where the acid was-

Julia Mossbridge 2:07:12 It does [laughs] yeah

Joe Rogan 2:07:12 ... flowing.

Julia Mossbridge 2:07:13 Yeah. They're all tripping. And they had this experience of like, if we really understood quantum mechanics, we would just get it, that it's mind looking into mind.

Joe Rogan 2:07:21 Hmm. How do you think that aligns with this whole extraterrestrial thing?

Julia Mossbridge 2:07:30 You're pointing at my book.

Joe Rogan 2:07:31 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:07:32 Yeah. Just so this cover, my husband did the art.

Joe Rogan 2:07:34 Have a Nice Disclosure? [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 2:07:36 Yeah. [laughs] He has like a little, a little quirky, like, uh, alien face engaging. It took him five minutes. I love it. Um, yeah. So this book is not about aliens, and some people get disappointed. It has an alien on the cover because people think of disclosure with aliens right now.

Joe Rogan 2:07:54 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:07:55 But it's really about what you know, what we fi- can find out by going into our inner space. Like, what we can find out by tapping into our own wisdom and our own experience, and not waiting for some authority figure to say, "Hey, this is what's true, and now we will reveal the great secret." Because honestly, when that happens, which could be literally tomorrow [laughs] , um, with the-

Joe Rogan 2:08:21 It might be today

Julia Mossbridge 2:08:21 ... It might be today with the release of the files.

Joe Rogan 2:08:23 I don't know what they're gonna tell us.

Julia Mossbridge 2:08:24 Yeah. I, I think there's gonna be a lot of redacted stuff and flood the zone with shit. But-

Joe Rogan 2:08:28 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 2:08:29 ... but, uh-But when that happens, it does- it's not gonna matter. 'Cause when someone tells you something and they say it's true, it doesn't matter until you experience it.

Joe Rogan 2:08:41 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:08:41 You know? It doesn't matter until it matters to you.

Joe Rogan 2:08:44 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 2:08:45 And so-

Joe Rogan 2:08:45 Yes, that's a good point

Julia Mossbridge 2:08:46 ... and so I think that disclosure, if you wanna have a nice disclosure, it's really about learning what matters to you and disclosing all your own weird shit to yourself. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:08:59 Mm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:08:59 You know, all the weird thoughts, like you're talking about that guy in your head. All those weird thoughts that we have and the weird experiences we've had in our lifetimes that we sort of bury. We say that, like the thing about the ball lightning, like every- I still forget that, and I've talked about it several times. Um, we sort of say, "Well, that's not normal. That's not usual, so maybe it didn't happen somehow." But it did, you know? Or people who have experienced seeing UAP or UFOs or people who are psionic assets or people like me who have psychic experiences all the time, it's, it's... And how I suppressed it so that I could go and to get my PhD, and then I- it came up as a flower later. I think that the movement has to switch, like we need a Copernican revolution, where we're not looking from, for some authority figure to tell us what's true.

Joe Rogan 2:09:53 I would, I would agree with that, but I also think it really helps if someone who knows more than you, who's honest, can tell you what's true. What I was kinda getting into-

Julia Mossbridge 2:10:03 Well, maybe-

Joe Rogan 2:10:04 I would agree with that, but what I was kinda getting into is this idea of retrocausality. If all timeline exists in the future, these things that people keep experiencing, which, uh, if you just extrapolated from what we understand about evolution from ancient hominids to current human beings to what do you think we're gonna look like, well, that's what w- I think we're gonna look like.

Julia Mossbridge 2:10:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:10:25 These very frail things that don't need muscles.

Julia Mossbridge 2:10:28 Big heads.

Joe Rogan 2:10:28 They have very big heads.

Julia Mossbridge 2:10:29 And kinda, like, weird arms.

Joe Rogan 2:10:30 Yeah, and communicate telepathically.

Julia Mossbridge 2:10:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:10:32 It seems like, and they don't have any gender. Seems like that's the direction that the human species is moving in. Like, so if you thought of this whole idea of time going in this figure eight loop, then you would consider, oh, is that us?

Julia Mossbridge 2:10:47 Yeah. Well, so I, I... That hypothesis is one of the many hypotheses, but I think that's a really good one, at least for the grays.

Joe Rogan 2:10:57 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:10:57 At least for what people describe as the grays. I think there, people have described other kind of beings or creatures.

Joe Rogan 2:11:04 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:11:05 Um, and there's this, there's this guy, Michael Masters, who studies that.

Joe Rogan 2:11:09 Yeah, I've had him on.

Julia Mossbridge 2:11:10 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:11:10 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:11:11 And so we w- we... If someone, the thing is, okay, so what if someone says that's the truth? It's still, like, it's the same problem I have when I tell people, like, "Look, all of us can basically get information from the future." [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:11:27 Mm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:11:27 And so can photons. Like, it, it doesn't matter until it matters. It doesn't matter until you make something. It doesn't, and I, and that's... It doesn't matter until you make something. Like, you show that something works that uses this principle, then people believe it. It's like general relativity. Lots of people don't know what it is, but we have GPS, you know? So we kinda have to say that's real. But someone saying something and making something with it are two different things.

Joe Rogan 2:11:57 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:11:57 And so I, I'm, I'm very impressed with what people like, uh, Anna Brady Estevez, who used to be at the National Science Foundation, is doing. She made this company called, it's a, I guess, I don't know much about money companies. It's k- it's like a fund, so some kind of fund, investment fund called American DeepTech, and she's like, "I'm gonna reverse engineer UFOs." [laughs] Because that's making something from these principles.

Joe Rogan 2:12:26 Well, there's a lot of people that believe that's already being done.

Julia Mossbridge 2:12:28 Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:12:29 It's been done forever.

Julia Mossbridge 2:12:29 But she wants to do it in the private sector outside of, you know, the big contracting companies.

Joe Rogan 2:12:35 How is she attempting to reverse engineer a UFO?

Julia Mossbridge 2:12:37 Well, she's, she's not. She's building a fund that's trying to invest in different companies that are using these kind of principles, like alternative propulsion or, you know, informational time travel or these kind of principles, space-time metric.

Joe Rogan 2:12:49 Mm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:12:49 And so she's one of many people who recognize that we have to get sort of out of the top five contracting companies who are holding all the knowledge about this stuff. Um, we have to build things and just go forward.

Joe Rogan 2:13:07 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:08 I know. What are you thinking?

Joe Rogan 2:13:11 Well, I mean, um, if this retrocausality idea about aliens in the future does exist, one of the, one of the weirder things is the back engineering part. Because part of the back engineering, um, there's... Have you, do you know who Diana Pasulka is?

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:28 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:13:28 Yeah, so her work is very interesting.

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:30 You've had her on the show.

Joe Rogan 2:13:31 Yes. Very interesting. And-

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:32 And I love her new book too.

Joe Rogan 2:13:34 Yeah, it's, her books are great. Um, one of the things that she talked about, though, was that the idea that these things are donations.

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:40 Yes. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:13:41 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:41 Jacques Vallée talks about that.

Joe Rogan 2:13:42 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:13:43 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:13:43 And, and, and so does Gary Nolan.

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:13:46 It's, so it's this weird, the people that have examined the physical characteristics of them, they're very strange.

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:13:52 Like, when they've gotten these, uh, s- little samples.

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:54 Little bits, like weird metals that we don't have.

Joe Rogan 2:13:56 Yeah, very strange.

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:13:57 Atomically layered.

Julia Mossbridge 2:13:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:13:58 You know, somehow or another printed, and this, these very strange alloys that would cost billions of dollars to make, and they found this crash in 1976. Like, it doesn't make any sense.

Julia Mossbridge 2:14:09 No, they seem like little, to me, they seem like little acupuncture points, like in the history of humanity.

Joe Rogan 2:14:15 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:14:15 Like little, just little acupuncture. Like, ooh, let's put a needle there.

Joe Rogan 2:14:18 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:14:18 Maybe they could have an iPhone.

Joe Rogan 2:14:20 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 2:14:21 [laughs] Maybe they, maybe they could figure out how to cure cancer. You know, maybe they could figure out how to do faster than light travel. So it does feel like, yeah, a little acupuncture, and it can be done with, with, with artifacts, like people find.

Joe Rogan 2:14:34 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:14:34 And I'm, you know, reading Diana Pasulka's, uh, book, American Cosmic.She talks about finding these artifact, artifacts and how she's, like, not even sure she believes in them, and I totally get it. I think I would feel the same way. But, uh, but then there's this other side to it that's not artifactual. It's about consciousness. It's about some kinda mystical, uh, awareness. You can also do acupuncture that way, right? You can put into someone's mind... Like, I'm not sure how I had the idea as a cognitive neuroscientist to do this experiment with photons. I think you can put into someone's mind information that will be helpful to the future, and I think that happens to people all over, inventors all over-

Joe Rogan 2:15:17 That's the muse.

Julia Mossbridge 2:15:18 Yeah, and, and, and the, the muse could come from the future, right?

Joe Rogan 2:15:22 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:15:22 That's, um, Eric Wargo talks about that.

Joe Rogan 2:15:25 Well, I've thought about that with ideas that almo- it's almost like ideas are a life form, and this is the thought that I had. Like, if you think about everything that exists today that human beings have created, all that stuff came from an idea. Like, the idea then manifests itself in physical form, and we wanna take credit for it. We wanna say, "Oh, I made that, you know, steam engine," and you did, right? But how the fuck did you do that? Like, where'd the idea come from? 'Cause ideas, anybody that's really honest about their ideas will tell you, like, "Boy, I don't even know if I, if that's my idea. It just came out of the ether." Every great thought that I've ever had, every great joke that I've ever written, all, all that stuff just came outta space, came out of some weird place. And I've always thought of that, like, what if ideas are a different type of life form, and it's a life form that manifests itself through us in physical space? And that's Marshall McLuhan's thought, um, i- in a book from the 1960s. He said, "Human beings are the sex organs of the machine world."

Julia Mossbridge 2:16:26 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:16:28 Isn't that amazing?

Julia Mossbridge 2:16:28 That's amazing.

Joe Rogan 2:16:29 Isn't that an amazing quote?

Julia Mossbridge 2:16:30 So what came into my head, so I love that idea. I always thought of science as, like, a, um, a living being. Like, it, like it has its desire, and if you-

Joe Rogan 2:16:38 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 2:16:38 ... if you don't do the experiment, someone else is gonna do the experiment.

Joe Rogan 2:16:40 Right, and it possesses you.

Julia Mossbridge 2:16:41 And songwriters talk about that, too.

Joe Rogan 2:16:43 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 2:16:43 If you don't write the song, someone else is gonna write the song.

Joe Rogan 2:16:45 Yes.

Julia Mossbridge 2:16:45 And it, you know, the image I had in my head, 'cause I think in images, was of... Do you remember those Play-Doh heads that would have holes in them, and you would turn the crank, and the Play-Doh would come out?

Joe Rogan 2:16:56 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:16:57 Shave and a haircut.

Joe Rogan 2:16:57 Give them a haircut.

Julia Mossbridge 2:16:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:16:58 That's right, yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:16:59 That's what came into my head. Like, it's just coming out of whatever hole isn't blocked.

Joe Rogan 2:17:03 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 2:17:03 And it just has its own momentum.

Joe Rogan 2:17:05 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:17:05 And then, like, what if one of those little holes said, "Oh, look what I did. I grew this hair," and it's like, "Well, okay." [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:17:11 Yeah, right? I know.

Julia Mossbridge 2:17:13 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:17:13 That's what it's like. I mean, most people that I've talked to that are singers, songwriters, um, uh, uh, authors in particular, they'll tell you that these ideas just sort of come out of nowhere. And you just gotta be there to receive them.

Julia Mossbridge 2:17:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:17:26 Pressfield wrote a great book about it called The War of Art. Steven Pressfield?

Julia Mossbridge 2:17:30 No, I don't know him.

Joe Rogan 2:17:31 Uh, he wrote The Legend of Bagger Vance, and he's a screenwriter-

Julia Mossbridge 2:17:34 Oh, wow

Joe Rogan 2:17:34 ... and just a brilliant guy. But d- his book, The War of Art, is really, like, a masterpiece because I, I have a stack of them, and I give them to comedians. I'm like, "Just read this," 'cause it's al- talks about the muse, and it talks about, like, treating it as if it's, like, a real deity that you are summoning. And you do the work. You show up every day. You, like, have this intention to do this, and if you do that, it will be real. It'll tr-

Julia Mossbridge 2:17:58 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:17:59 ... it, it, and it is like these are things that come from somewhere else-

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:04 Well-

Joe Rogan 2:18:04 ... into your head

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:05 ... especially in comedy 'cause you have to be in the moment. You're not think- I mean, even if you write your whole show ahead of time, right? Mike Birbiglia talks about this on Working It Out, right? Even if you write your whole show ahead of time, if you're not in the moment, the timing is gonna be off.

Joe Rogan 2:18:19 Not only that, it's not just the timing's off, the audience knows.

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:22 Yeah, they can tell.

Joe Rogan 2:18:22 You could say things exactly correctly with the right timing-

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:26 Yep

Joe Rogan 2:18:26 ... but they're animals. They smell it.

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:18:29 Like, if you're thinking about your laundry or something else, like, they know.

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:32 Right. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:18:33 Like, they know if you're really thinking about a thing. It's hypnosis.

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:36 Yeah, or it's like telepathy. They can... I, I, I, um, when I was... This morning, I'm like, "Oh, God, I just have to take a nap because I'm thinking too much about what I'm gonna say on Joe Rogan's show," you know? [laughs] And that's just the worst when you're-

Joe Rogan 2:18:48 Right

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:48 ... thinking about what you're gonna say.

Joe Rogan 2:18:50 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:51 Because then if you say it, everyone can just tell, like, oh man.

Joe Rogan 2:18:53 Well, you're thinking about a result.

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:54 It's like you're reading a, a line. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:18:56 You're thinking about a result-

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:57 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:18:57 ... instead of thinking about the process.

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:18:59 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:18:59 Or you're just not in the process.

Joe Rogan 2:19:00 Right, right, right.

Julia Mossbridge 2:19:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:19:02 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:19:02 Yeah. Which is so funny because we're sitting here talking about retrocausality and these-

Joe Rogan 2:19:06 Mm-hmm

Julia Mossbridge 2:19:06 ... figure eight things and the multiple worlds, and then we're talking about how important it is to be in the now, which kind of, like, doesn't exist physically but sure exists psychologically.

Joe Rogan 2:19:13 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:19:13 Like, it's all that exists.

Joe Rogan 2:19:15 And we were also talking before about ego, and I think that's a part of the problem with the way people can create or not create, is that you gotta learn how to get out of your own way, and everybody talks about that. Writers always talk about that. Like, you have to get, just get out of your own way.

Julia Mossbridge 2:19:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:19:28 And that's really what's going on with this wrestling match with the mind.

Julia Mossbridge 2:19:33 Yes.

Joe Rogan 2:19:34 It's like we're trying to, like, just be clear what... And I think that's where probably some of this non-verbal, these non-speaking people, that's where they have this advantage.

Julia Mossbridge 2:19:45 Yes.

Joe Rogan 2:19:45 They're not, they don't have the same perception of themselves the way we do, I bet.

Julia Mossbridge 2:19:51 Um, not a, not at all.

Joe Rogan 2:19:53 Or so they're free in that regard, that they-

Julia Mossbridge 2:19:55 They're-

Joe Rogan 2:19:55 ... don't have that monkey on their back, so to speak.

Julia Mossbridge 2:19:57 Well, but then they have another monkey on their back-

Joe Rogan 2:19:59 Right

Julia Mossbridge 2:19:59 ... which is they live in this culture in which people think they're idiots.

Joe Rogan 2:20:02 Mm-hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:20:02 Because we read-

Joe Rogan 2:20:03 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 2:20:03 ... each other's bodies, and we say, "There's something wrong with the way you're moving your body."

Joe Rogan 2:20:06 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 2:20:06 "You can't talk. You're making these sounds." And so you're free in your mind, but you're not free in your body.

Joe Rogan 2:20:12 And we're giving off negativity. Oh, what's wrong with this guy? And then they feel that.

Julia Mossbridge 2:20:15 And they hear it.

Joe Rogan 2:20:16 Right, right, right.

Julia Mossbridge 2:20:16 Yeah. And so when we were filming for, um, for Kai's documentary, we all got together with the sound people and the camera people before our first non-speaker came in for their trial, um, and we said, "When, you know, they're telepathic, so we're gonna do a little prayer right now that we can all be in a proper, positive state when they come in." And our first student came in, said, "It was really great walking through the hall and feeling that good."

Joe Rogan 2:20:42 Mm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:20:42 And, and, you know, not like we told him we did that, but it was justAnd validation that that was there.

Joe Rogan 2:20:49 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:20:49 And the getting out of your own way, like, God, I think that's less of a problem for these students.

Joe Rogan 2:20:53 Is that a part of the book?

Julia Mossbridge 2:20:54 Well, the reason I'm looking, I guess, at, at the book is that the first two chapters popped out at me. I didn't know I was writing a book until I was on the second chapter.

Joe Rogan 2:21:02 [laughs] What'd you think you were writing?

Julia Mossbridge 2:21:05 I'm like, "I'm writing words on a page," but this weird story about a guy who hears the walls start talking, and he's like, "What's going on?" And, and it's in the, and it's in the second person, like, I'm saying, "You-"

Joe Rogan 2:21:15 Uh-huh

Julia Mossbridge 2:21:15 ... this is happening to you. I'm like, "What am I... I've never written like that before." And the second chapter I'm like, "I think I'm writing a book, and I don't know what this is about." And by the third chapter, I'm finally like, "What the fuck?" I mean [laughs] what is going on? And so it was a discovery pro- So the whole first half of the book is this discovery process of like, what am I trying to communicate? And I had to get everything out of the way in terms of all, like, the scholarly stuff, like, well, I better not say that. Nope, didn't get to... Nope, just had to say the things that were coming up. Had to do it all.

Joe Rogan 2:21:46 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:21:46 Just exactly as it was, like I was writing a song, you know? And then the, what it kind of did was work on me. Like, like, it had its own process that I didn't think it was gonna have. Like, I thought it would work on other people. I don't know what I thought. I just had to write the words, and then I, I just... I guess in the back of my mind, I'm like, "It's gonna make people feel their own inner space in a way that's gonna be unique to them." And then it turns out I ended up feeling my own inner space in a way that was unique to me, and then I had to write about that.

Julia Mossbridge 2:22:16 So I ended up talking about this, this gifted and talented program I was in and, um, all the receipts I had from that and what the heck was going on with that. It's funny to me how sometimes I'll swear, and sometimes I'll say heck. But [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:22:31 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 2:22:31 I don't know why. I'm like, why? Like, sometimes I'm like, "What the fuck?" And sometimes I'll be like, "Gosh darn it."

Joe Rogan 2:22:36 Yeah. [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 2:22:37 [laughs] I just don't know what the difference is.

Joe Rogan 2:22:39 Oh, I think about that all the time.

Julia Mossbridge 2:22:40 Yeah. But anyway, I... It's a weird, weird book, but what it did was open up f- uh, for a lot of people who were in these weird gifted and talented programs, opened up a lot of memories. Um, and I ended up starting a support group for people who had these experiences and kind of, um, don't know what to do with them and still feel the surveillance and the sort of the f- the feeling of being studied throughout your whole life.

Joe Rogan 2:23:09 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:23:09 And not knowing if your, your gifts are your own or if they were taught to you in some kind of way that you've forgotten and... So anyway, I don't know why I brought that up. I guess about the, I guess about the getting out of your own way thing. I had to write all that down. It's the best book I've ever written. I've written other books. They're good, but this one is everything I wanted to say and nothing I didn't want to say, and I got it all out there. Um, and I have a security clearance, and I was afraid that, um, it would get taken away from me if I said all these things. And-

Joe Rogan 2:23:39 'Cause you talked about remote viewing?

Julia Mossbridge 2:23:41 No, 'cause I talked about the intelligence community potentially being involved in, um-

Joe Rogan 2:23:47 Gifted programs?

Julia Mossbridge 2:23:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:23:49 Yeah. Well, of course they are. I would imagine they are.

Julia Mossbridge 2:23:52 I would imagine-

Joe Rogan 2:23:52 I mean, imagine they were trying to get talent in any way they can, especially if they actually invested time and energy, and we know they have, in remote viewing and things along those lines.

Julia Mossbridge 2:24:00 Yeah, but the problem is they were doing these pro- I mean, I, of course, the intell- I, I'm, I'm impressed with and know many good people in the intelligence community. And, um, at the time that they were doing these programs and giving students these weird drinks and doing some kind of mechanism to remove memory of certain things, they were not asking for parental consent. So yes, looking for talent, understood. Yes, doing, trying to look for psychic... I mean, the intelligence community has always been interested in psychic capacities. Not asking for parental consent, bad.

Joe Rogan 2:24:36 And so they were giving you guys drinks? Do you know what was in it?

Julia Mossbridge 2:24:41 No. Um, I remember a pink drink, though. It was chalky. It's the same kind of drink everyone talks about. Um-

Joe Rogan 2:24:47 And then what was the effect of that pink drink? Do you remember that?

Julia Mossbridge 2:24:49 I don't know. So here's, here's the, here's, there's two memory lapses that are very consistent. One was in seventh grade when I was explicitly told I was in a gifted program rather than my earlier years when I just kind of had the, these pull-outs and things. So in seventh grade, I'm in the, what's called the SOAR program. This was in, like, '80, '81. This is before GATE, Gifted and Talented Education. I think it's just a predecessor to GATE. And I was, um, pulled out every week, I think about every week, to go see a counselor, but the counselor was really two people, and, um, a man and a woman. Maybe it was sometimes just her, but I think it was both of them. And they would see me in the small rooms, but all I remember is walking. I remember walking down the hallway to the room, dreading that, opening the door. I know which door it was. I can picture it. Shutting the door. There's stuff over the window. And then I, I black out, like, every time. And, and I don't mean, like, I'm 57 years old, and I don't remember what happened [laughs] in the seventh grade. What I mean is, um, when I would then leave, I remember going back to class and not remembering what happened in the room.

Joe Rogan 2:26:02 Wow.

Julia Mossbridge 2:26:04 So there's some kind of... And this is not, I mean, this is not different from what many other people will report who were in that program. So I, they, some amnesiac. Either, either the drink was the amnesiac, or the drink is something else, and they did hypnosis to make us forget or whatever. The other time was when I was a adult. I was adult-ish. I was 20-ish. And I took some time off of college to go, uh, hang out in Palo Alto 'cause I had a, a boyfriend out there. I, I previously had a boyfriend out there, and I was kind of into the Stanford world. I wasn't at Stanford, but I was just into hanging out there. And I needed a job. Um, and so I... It was the time when word processing was like, you could get paid to be a word processor. [laughs] And I understood computers, and I was like, "I'll be a word processor." So I either got, I either saw an ad in the newspaper at Lockheed Martin or my dad told me, "I know someone you should talk to at Lockheed Martin for a job." I end up at Lockheed Martin for an interview in the morning. They hire me on the spot. Then, um, I remember sitting and talking to the guy during the interview, uh, just I could see the parking lot behind him. I see the desk. Behind me, I'm vaguely sensing in memory some kind of weird equipment, but again, no memory of that. Then I remember the end of the day when I'm typing on a c- computer, my hands are shaking, and I'm crying. And [laughs] I don't remember what happened between the morning and the night in that moment. I don't remember. And I feel like I'm typing up a resignation letter, but it, but it, in my memory, it could have just been the thing I was typing up, like word processing. But I hand it to the boss, and I go, "I can't work here." And he said, "Oh, I thought you would have a great future at Lockheed Martin." I'm like, "Why would you say that to a 20-year-old who you know is going back to college in, like, three months?" Um, what a weird thing to say for, to a word processor who you just hired on that day. And then I, and then I left. So, um, I don't know what to say about those instances. My memory is usually pretty photographic, and my auditory memory is excellent. Um-

Joe Rogan 2:28:27 So do you think that the people at Lockheed Martin somehow or another had record of you being a part of this other program?

Julia Mossbridge 2:28:34 I figure-

Joe Rogan 2:28:35 And that's one of the reasons why they hired you?

Julia Mossbridge 2:28:37 I, I, I figure. Or my dad knew that, and maybe the memory of him telling me was a real memory.

Joe Rogan 2:28:46 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:28:46 I mean, so he was working for Department of Energy when I was a kid. Um, and when, I recently had a support group meeting, like, two days ago with, with the folks who were in these programs, and someone asked the question, "Who here had parents who worked for either the public school system or federal government?" And everyone raised their hand, and then some-

Joe Rogan 2:29:03 Whoa

Julia Mossbridge 2:29:03 ... and then I said, "Who here didn't?" Like, let's just make sure, and no one didn't. And so-

Joe Rogan 2:29:08 Whoa.

Julia Mossbridge 2:29:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:29:11 So the federal government is mining people's children-

Julia Mossbridge 2:29:15 Well-

Joe Rogan 2:29:15 ... seen as exceptional so that they can use them for whatever they're trying to accomplish.

Julia Mossbridge 2:29:19 Well, or their contractors. And maybe it's like... Excuse me. I get burpy [laughs] when I talk about stuff that's hard. Um, you know, maybe, like, I wanted, I wanted to work for the federal government, and I, and I got a job offer and everything and went through their security clearance process, and then DOGE happened. But, but I was recruited four days after I filed a FOIA to try to get information about that program. And then a couple days later, I'm more burpy, a couple days later, um, uh, after I passed the first interview, um, I got a note from the FOIA people saying, "Are you sure you want us to continue this FOIA request?" Four days later. I mean, that's not, that's fast for FOIA. Like, FOIA's not super rapid. And then I said, "No, I guess maybe not," because I was thinking maybe the, um, people who have, were gonna hire me maybe didn't want me to have an outstanding FOIA request.

Joe Rogan 2:30:19 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:30:19 So I said, "Maybe not." And then three minutes later, I got a call from the recruiter saying, um, "Okay, you've passed to the next level."

Joe Rogan 2:30:27 Oh, wow.

Julia Mossbridge 2:30:29 Yeah. So I think that there's, um... And now, now, so I don't mean to sound... So the thing that I think was wrong, unethical, was not giving students things to ingest and doing experiments that removed their memory without consent of parents and the students, right?

Joe Rogan 2:30:47 And this is universal amongst all the other students? They all said that they lost memory?

Julia Mossbridge 2:30:51 Men- not universal. Nothing's universal. Some actually remember horrible, um, abuse that I can't repeat here. Um, but, um, well, many of them don't have, um, amnesic periods.

Joe Rogan 2:31:02 And was the, the same with all of them? Was it a, a similar result that they were trying to achieve? Was it some sort of a exceptional powers that these children had or-

Julia Mossbridge 2:31:14 Um-

Joe Rogan 2:31:14 ... exceptional ability, exceptional cognitive ability? Like, what was it?

Julia Mossbridge 2:31:18 It looks like they were looking for exceptional cognitive ability and leadership ability, creative ability, and, uh, psychic ability.

Joe Rogan 2:31:27 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:31:27 Um, but no, so that's, so I mean, I just wanna say, like, that's not nefarious to want those things.

Joe Rogan 2:31:33 But it is from children.

Julia Mossbridge 2:31:35 Right. And so this is the thing-

Joe Rogan 2:31:36 Yeah

Julia Mossbridge 2:31:36 ... that is just like, okay.

Joe Rogan 2:31:37 You're, it's just taking children and making, doing experiments on them. It's like you're fucking weirding them out. They're supposed to be playing with their friends and having fun and living a normal life. You've all of a sudden changed all of that by introducing them to scientific experiments and making them drink fucking Pepto-Bismol or whatever they're giving you.

Julia Mossbridge 2:31:54 Some amnesiac.

Joe Rogan 2:31:55 Whatever pink weird-

Julia Mossbridge 2:31:56 Or some radioactive thing. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 2:31:57 Whoa.

Julia Mossbridge 2:31:57 So I had this dream. I had this-

Joe Rogan 2:31:59 Radioactive? Jeez

Julia Mossbridge 2:31:59 ... well, so the reason I-

Joe Rogan 2:32:00 X-Men type shit.

Julia Mossbridge 2:32:01 Sorry. [laughs] Well, right. And so the reason I bring that up is I had this... So I know already that I'm gifted at dreaming telepathically and precognitively, right? And so I know that's true. And then I have this, um, dream after I move to Washington, DC, and I'm starting to think about working for the federal government. I have this dream. I don't have a job yet or even a job offer, but this car is following me in the dream. It's a red convertible, and there's a guy in the convertible, and it has a little FBI badge on it, on the car. And I'm like, "Why are you following me?" So I just speed up, and he keeps following me. He says, "Hey, we like how spunky you are, but call the office." And I go, "Call the office? I don't have a job." And he goes, "Call the office." He's very adamant. And so I'm pissed, and I crawl up on the hood of the car, and I look at him, you know, as he's driving, as one does in one's dream. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:32:56 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 2:32:57 I'm very aggressive. And I said, "Give me the phone number."So he gives me the phone number, and I immediately wake up, I write it down. It's the only time it's ever happened to me in a dream that a phone number actually corresponds to a phone number of a government agency. So I look it up, corresponds to a government agency that monitors radiation exposure. And the first document I find online is this, um, document about these tests of radiation exposure th- in humans that started in the '70s. And they were like, "Look, we can't do these tests on, uh, animals. We have to do them on humans." It didn't say, like, "Let's give people radiation," or it didn't say, "Let's give people things that soak up radiation and help heal them." It didn't say either of those things. It just said, "We have to do this on humans." It was from the Nuclear Defense Agency. And so that made me start asking questions about whether this has to do with trying to understand the effect of radioactivity. And so I looked into a bunch of history, and I found out that my mom's-- My mom grew up really poor. Both her parents worked at a, um, uranium mining facility in Denver. And of course, her fa- her mother was a secretary, but, uh, her father was a, a miner, and he would come home with ra- you know, uranium dust on his boots. And, uh, so there's, there's intergenerational exposure, right? So if your, if your parent, if your mother especially, 'cause, you know, the, the eggs are... She was, like, seven or so, but the, if the eggs are in you your whole life as a woman, right? And so if they get mutated, I could see now, oh, I would potentially be studied, and my sister would as well.

Joe Rogan 2:34:37 Whoa.

Julia Mossbridge 2:34:37 So then I started looking at all these places where these programs developed. The very first, um, SOAR program was in the '70s and started in Aiken, South Carolina. I found a bunch of newspaper articles about it. SOAR at the time stood for, get this, Students On Active Research.

Joe Rogan 2:34:57 [laughs]

Julia Mossbridge 2:34:58 Like, let's just call it what it is [laughs] out loud, publicly.

Joe Rogan 2:35:02 That's crazy.

Julia Mossbridge 2:35:03 Yeah. So, uh, by the time it got to me up in Illinois, it was called, uh, Scholarly Opportunities in the Academic Realm. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:35:11 Active Research is too creepy for people?

Julia Mossbridge 2:35:12 Well, yeah. What, maybe?

Joe Rogan 2:35:13 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:35:14 But anyway, Aiken, South Carolina, is right next to, um, the Savannah River, um, nuclear facility that processed plutonium. And so-- And then there were a bunch of people who were in the SOAR program in Nevada, which is obviously a nuclear test site, and then I talked to a friend who, um, who knows a bunch of Special Forces guys. But he grew up in a place where they had these weird radioactivity, like, actual containers, like, s- in their school.

Joe Rogan 2:35:41 Hmm.

Julia Mossbridge 2:35:41 Like storage bins in their school, which is just weird. And he was in one of these programs, and his friend was in one of these programs. And so I think there might be something related to that, and I don't know how all this stuff ties in. But the story I'm... Again, this is just speculation and based on the receipts that I found and putting things together. Could all be wrong, and some of the, my good friends in the intelligence community think it's pretty nuts. But regardless, I would wanna understand the effects of radiation on the human mind. Maybe it could make positive things happen, like the ozone.

Joe Rogan 2:36:15 At low level.

Julia Mossbridge 2:36:16 At low levels.

Joe Rogan 2:36:17 Right.

Julia Mossbridge 2:36:18 Right? May- I mean, I, I'm, as a cognitive neuroscientist, I get it. But you just have to ask for consent.

Joe Rogan 2:36:24 Yeah.

Julia Mossbridge 2:36:24 You have to talk about the risks. You have to be clear about it. And you don't-- Uh, it's clear that, uh, there's a file that kind of follows you, right, when you're in these programs.

Joe Rogan 2:36:32 Well, it's also very clear that if you look at the history of MKUltra, their whole motive op- operandi was, uh, just do everything you wanna do. Don't ask for permission.