Joe Rogan Experience #2515 - Chase Hughes

1. 0:00 – 0:02

   Intro

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:02 – 2:24

   Intravenous DMT via anesthesia pump: a five-hour “altitude-adjustable” breakthrough

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music] Chase Hughes, ladies and gentlemen.

   2. CHChase Hughes0:14

      Hey, Joe.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Good to see you.

   4. CHChase Hughes0:15

      Good to see you, man.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      What's happening? How are you?

   6. CHChase Hughes0:18

      Good. Doing really good. Just got in Austin last night.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      I watched these videos of you describing this intravenous DMT experience, and the first thing I said is, "I need to talk to this guy about that." Like, that seems like one of the most insane descriptions of anything that anybody's ever experienced-

   8. CHChase Hughes0:38

      Yeah

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:39

      ... that, that I've ever seen online.

   10. CHChase Hughes0:40

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       So tell me about this experience.

   12. CHChase Hughes0:43

       So [sighs] it's DMT, and this guy makes it, and they put it into a pump, and it's like an anesthesia pump that you'd have in, like, an operating room. And essentially they can adjust your, like, milliliters per hour dose, like they would use for anesthesia. And like, they launch you off. You're laying ... Th- the space is beautiful. It ... They hold the space really well, and they can-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       What do you, what do you mean by that, they hold the space really well?

   14. CHChase Hughes1:16

       Like, it's a beautiful space. Like, there's this amazing place where you lay down in the middle of the room. It's, like, on a really soft pillow thing, and good, great music on, and like, it's, it's very calm and, and these people are just unbelievably calm and good human beings, um, th- to take you through the experience. And the cool thing about this pump is that you can adjust your altitude. So, like, you could be in the middle of this and say, "I need to go up more. I, I wanna come down." If you need to take a pee break, uh, they'll, like, pull you down. You kind of go onto the runway, and then you go pee, and you come back and you launch right back up as high as you wanna go, as fast as you wanna go. [sniffs] So it's five and a half hours, and we did ... I did one pee break, but it is, it's DMT. Uh, like, the highest you can feel on DMT, like, the most you can see on DMT, but it's five and a half hours of that. And the next time I go back, we're gonna mix Alzheimer's drugs with this.

3. 2:24 – 4:47

   Why we can’t bring it back: dreams, memory protection, and the limits of language

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:24

      Why?

   2. CHChase Hughes2:26

      Uh, to see how much I can bring back. To see if it improves, like, the retrieval. Like, 'cause, you know, like, when you, when you're in the DMT space and you're like, "I have access to all this stuff," like, "Oh my God, I wish I could bring this back. I wanna-"

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:39

      Right

   4. CHChase Hughes2:39

      ... bring this back so bad." And-

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:41

      It seems like we're protected from bringing it back.

   6. CHChase Hughes2:44

      It does. It does.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:45

      Like a dream.

   8. CHChase Hughes2:46

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:47

      It's ... There's v- there's real similar comparisons to the dream state.

   10. CHChase Hughes2:51

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       And the dream state is very strange. So I, I've had, like, profound dreams and, or, or really bizarre dreams, and when I wake up, they're so crystal clear. And with... I go to take a pee, I have a cup of coffee-

   12. CHChase Hughes3:03

       Yeah

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:04

       ... I can't remember them anymore.

   14. CHChase Hughes3:05

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:06

       I barely, barely can grip them.

   16. CHChase Hughes3:09

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:10

       They just slide through your fingers.

   18. CHChase Hughes3:11

       It's like we ... There is a protective layer there of some kind.

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:15

       It seems like it has to be, because if there was anything that you experienced in the regular conscious state that was that profound, you would remember it forever.

   20. CHChase Hughes3:23

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:23

       Just think of a great th- just UFC fight this weekend. I remember everything. Oh my God, it's so, like-

   22. CHChase Hughes3:29

       Yeah

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:29

       ... drilled into my brain, and that is, like, nothing compared to a DMT experience.

   24. CHChase Hughes3:36

       Yeah. And it's, it, it just seems like I've never met someone who's done DMT that would just call, "Oh, yeah, it's a psychedelic. It's a hallucination." I've never met anybody that's actually done it and then will, will just go back and say, "I hallucinated something."

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:51

       There's a few people that say that. I've, I've actually ... I've read this one piece by this guy. I forget his discipline. I forget what he ... But serious academic, and his, his position after, I think, he did l- like 100 DMT trips, and his position was that this is all being concocted by your visual cortex in your brain and your imagination. That was his position, but ...

   26. CHChase Hughes4:15

       I mean, why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you go to Walmart on a DMT trip then?

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:19

       But what I don't-

   28. CHChase Hughes4:19

       Or Target?

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:20

       [laughs] I don't think that's what ... I don't, I just think, you know, it's 'cause it's very disorienting, and, you know, you really should sit still, but I think that there's contrarians out there.

   30. CHChase Hughes4:30

       No, I mean, like, in the DMT space, why don't you just see a Target or a, a 7-Eleven or something? You know?
4. 4:47 – 6:51

   Ego re-entry and “Avatar depression”: not wanting to come back

   1. CHChase Hughes4:47

      And it, man, that really hooked me in. A- a- and during this six-hour journey, experience, whatever you wanna call it, um, at the end of ... Uh, I mean, it's DMT. Like, your ... Like, it's just reality's gone. Like, you ... Like, everything, "Oh, yeah," you know, see all the stuff that you think is real? Goodbye. It's like everything's gone. And then at the end of this, I, I, on camera I asked if I was dead 39 times. Uh, I wasn't concerned what, what the answer was. I just was like, "Am I dead?" Um, and coming toward the end of this experience, I was bawling. I was crying, and it, it just felt like I had to wrap myself in some kinda ego in order to just return back here. To, to come back, there's no way for me to come back and not have some little ego, uh, thing, and it, it made me so sad coming back that I just didn't wanna come back at all. You know what I'm talking about?

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:53

      It's like Avatar depression times a million. [laughs]

   3. CHChase Hughes5:56

      [laughs] Yeah. It really is. For people that don't know what I'm talking about, um-

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:02

      When the movie Avatar came out, it was so wonderful, the exper- and th- th- these people seemed like to live such a righteous, peaceful existence in the forest that people came back and they, they were depressed that they don't live in the Avatar world.

   5. CHChase Hughes6:18

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:18

      It was a, it was a, like a psychological condition that was oc- it was happening s- with so many different therapists that people started calling it Avatar depression.

   7. CHChase Hughes6:28

      That's brilliant.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:29

      [laughs]

   9. CHChase Hughes6:29

      And, and it, it's got a name. Like in the '90s, there was The Truman Show syndrome.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:34

       Right, right, right, right.

   11. CHChase Hughes6:35

       [laughs] People got into that.

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:36

       But I mean, how badass is your fucking movie that it creates a psychological condition in people that wish that reality was like your movie?

   13. CHChase Hughes6:44

       Yeah. I love that. It, it, it did feel like that, times-

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:48

       Times a million-

   15. CHChase Hughes6:49

       ... 10,000. Yeah

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:49

       ... or whatever it is. Yeah.

5. 6:51 – 9:08

   Entity ‘surgery’ and prayer: aliens, the body, and Chase’s health conditions

   1. CHChase Hughes6:51

      And it, one of the things that I didn't know happened was my wife was with me, Michelle, and the night before when we were at their house, they were, they just said, "Y- you can pick a vial." And I said, "Let Michelle, uh, pick, pick a vial." And I was in the other room, and Michelle was with this guy who makes the DMT, and he said, "Would you like to pray over this, uh, DMT?" And Michelle did that, and I didn't, I didn't even know she prayed over it. And the next day, and I'm not saying there's anything here, but when it started, the first thing that happened was like these alien beings or whatever kind of pinned me down on this table and ripped me open, like from pelvis all the way up to my neck, like all the way open. And I could hear my organs kinda moving around inside my body, and they're w- doing something in me. And the second thing was they pushed my head back up on the table, and they, this big drill bit went up inside of my nose, like all the way to the back of my head. It didn't hurt. There was no pain or anything. And it was, they were doing that for probably 45 minutes.

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:53

      [laughs]

   3. CHChase Hughes7:53

      A long time. And it was freezing cold. And then after this journey, I told Michelle about this, and she's like, "That's what I asked them to do. I asked them to fix your heart and your brain." 'Cause I have a heart thing going on, and I have a, a brain disease, which is why I was doing this in the first place. And that was the first thing that happened on the, on the journey. I, I'm not saying there's causation or anything.

   4. JRJoe Rogan8:14

      Did you get looked at afterwards to see if they did anything?

   5. CHChase Hughes8:18

      I haven't, 'cause it, they have to do a PET scan, and it's so much radiation. Um-

   6. JRJoe Rogan8:24

      Oh

   7. CHChase Hughes8:24

      ... it's like, it's so much radiation I can't even hug or sleep with my wife or, or my m- our, our two-year-old for like 48 hours. It's a-

   8. JRJoe Rogan8:33

      Whoa

   9. CHChase Hughes8:33

      ... ton of radiation. But-

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:35

       Yeah, fuck that.

   11. CHChase Hughes8:36

       Yeah. Fuck-

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:36

       What is the condition that you have?

   13. CHChase Hughes8:38

       I ha- in the brain I have mesial temporal sclerosis.

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:41

       Yeah, we talked about this the last time you were here.

   15. CHChase Hughes8:43

       Yeah. And I had a seizure like the night before our, our, our last episode.

   16. JRJoe Rogan8:46

       This is the thing that you said that methylene blue-

   17. CHChase Hughes8:49

       Yeah

   18. JRJoe Rogan8:49

       ... was really helping you with.

   19. CHChase Hughes8:50

       You know how many people have ripped that out of our show and like made commercials for their, their company and stuff out of it?

   20. JRJoe Rogan8:55

       Oh, I'm used to that. There's-

   21. CHChase Hughes8:57

       I can't imagine

   22. JRJoe Rogan8:57

       ... so many ads for me selling everything.

   23. CHChase Hughes9:00

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan9:00

       From coffee makers to hard-on pills.

   25. CHChase Hughes9:03

       And if, if I don't take methylene blue for a couple days, I'll, I'll go back into seizure territory pretty quickly.

   26. JRJoe Rogan9:08

       Really?

6. 9:08 – 15:17

   Dream physics, consciousness as ‘fabric,’ and fractal reality

   1. CHChase Hughes9:08

      Yeah. Uh, uh, but I will say, just to go back to this dream thing that you were, you were talking about, the way that I, like, get people to help, like, understand this, like, if you're in a... I'll walk you through this really quick. Let's say you're in a dream right now, and I'm just here in your dream. We're chilling out, hanging out. And let's say you don't know it's a dream yet, and I look over and I say like, "What is that UFO spaceship over there? How far is that from your face right now?" And you look over at that flying saucer thing, and you'd be like, "Oh, it's eight, eight feet," or something like that. But then if I, if you know it's a dream and I ask you, "How far is it?" you're still gonna say, "Oh, it's eight feet." And then I ask, "What is it made out of?" You're gonna say, "Oh, it's aluminum," or, you know, whatever that thing's made out of. But there's no aluminum in your brain, right? So like, and then I ask you again, like, "What is it made out of?" And you eventually will, you'll get to a place where you say, "It's made out of me. It's made out of consciousness." Then I say, "What is the distance made out of? That entire eight feet of distance is also made out of your consciousness." And then I say, "Well, why did you have to manufacture eyeballs in your dream to see out of? And then what are the photons?" Like, you're seeing colors and all this stuff in your dream. There's no photons bouncing off of stuff in your dream. The entire body is fabricated. Your eyes are fabricated. Like, you're seeing all of this stuff without your eyeballs at all. But you made up eyeballs to see it all through. And then the distance, like from you to that flying saucer, you say it's eight feet. The distance is zero. Like, there's not eight feet inside of your brain. So I kind of walk people in to show that everything that you would do, like not in a dream, like sitting here in the studio to prove that this pitcher of water is real, uh, you could do identical. You could do everything in a dream that you would do in waking reality to prove that something is real. And then you realize that the distance between you and that thing is, A, made up of consciousness, and B, doesn't exist.

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:15

      Whoa. Um-

   3. CHChase Hughes11:17

      Does that make sense?

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:18

      It does make sense. It does make sense. Because we assume that b- because we have tools to measure distance and sound and touch and all those different, different senses that we possess, that this is what the world's made out of.

   5. CHChase Hughes11:33

      Yeah. And it makes sense. So like, and there's dream logic, right? So like if you're all of a sudden riding on your rhinoceros to the pizza factory, and you're like, "Oh, yeah, it's normal."

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:43

      Right.

   7. CHChase Hughes11:44

      Uh, so the, if you look at like a galaxy, it matches this, the shape of DNA. If you look at the toroidal shape of like gravitational stuff, it matches the shape of a red blood cell. You look at an eyeball close up, it looks like a, uh, like a nebula. And if we just look at as above, so below, like any of that is even remotely true, then dreams might tell us more than we think about what's going on here. In, in this what we call reality

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:12

      Have you ever seen the comparison between the universe itself and, uh, human neural tissue?

   9. CHChase Hughes12:19

      No.

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:20

       It's bananas.

   11. CHChase Hughes12:20

       Is it like a f- uh-

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:21

       It's identical

   13. CHChase Hughes12:21

       ... an image?

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:22

       Yeah, it's like an image of the known universe with, uh, an image of w- is it a brain cell or a human neural cell? I, I forget which one it was, but, um, when you look at the two of them together, you're like, "Okay, is this whole thing a giant fractal inside of a fractal-

   15. CHChase Hughes12:39

       Yeah

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:39

       ... inside of a fr..." If that's what infinity is, you know, infin- we'd like to think that, like, this is what it looks like. That's a brain cell, and that's the universe.

   17. CHChase Hughes12:47

       Good Lord.

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:48

       What the fuck? I mean-

   19. CHChase Hughes12:50

       Oh, my gosh

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:51

       ... it's the same thing. So it's, if y- at least it looks like the same thing, right? Um, you know, when we think of infinity, we think of what we are here on Earth, that there is no distance that you could travel where you find the end, that the infinite universe just keeps going on. But it's way crazier than that. It might be that the entire infinite universe that doesn't have an end is actually a part of a cell that's in another being.

   21. CHChase Hughes13:22

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan13:22

       That's in an infinite universe that has no end, that's actually just a part of a cell.

   23. CHChase Hughes13:27

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:27

       That's in a part of an infinite, and it g- goes on and on and on.

   25. CHChase Hughes13:32

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:32

       And, and we have some evidence that that might be the case just in the weirdness of these super massive black holes that are in the center of every galaxy. So these super massive black... We had, uh, Michelle Fowler on the podcast the other day. Fascinating woman. She's, um, um, an astrophysicist, and d- just discussing all, all the, the strangeness of the universe, the more that we experience it, the, the w- the m- the more, the deeper they look, the crazier it is. It's like the f- the further the James Webb telescope goes out, the more shit that they find. They're like, "What is going-

   27. CHChase Hughes14:04

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan14:04

       "What is that? How is that there? This is not supposed to be there." They think that there's a real possibility that inside every black hole is a completely new universe.

   29. CHChase Hughes14:15

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan14:15

       That it's some sort of a passageway. So if there's hundreds of billions of galaxies just in the known universe, and every one of those galaxies has a super massive black hole inside of it, in the center of it, you go through that, and you are in hundreds of billions of new galaxies, all with black holes. And then you go into those fucking universes, and you find creatures with brains, and you get to their brain, and their brain looks like a universe. And if you get closer and closer and closer, you might see hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with black holes inside their fucking brain cells.
7. 15:17 – 17:23

   Certainty as ego armor: ideology, identity, and the fear of vastness

   1. CHChase Hughes15:17

      Yeah. I agree with that. And, and we need less certainty about this shit.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:22

      Yeah.

   3. CHChase Hughes15:22

      There's so many people-

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:22

      Well, I think what you said-

   5. CHChase Hughes15:23

      ... are like, "Oh, I have this figured out."

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:24

      What you said about coming back from the DMT trip, about how your ego tries to kind of reclaim reality for you, I think that is a genuine problem with human beings today, in which they cling to ideologies, to political parties, to-

   7. CHChase Hughes15:40

      Yeah

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:41

      ... ethics, morals, religion, whatever it is, that they, uh, uh, they connect themselves to inseparably. And I think part of that is just being afraid of the vastness of what this experience really is.

   9. CHChase Hughes15:55

      It's-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       And the ex- the way to shield yourself from it is to pretend to be sure.

   11. CHChase Hughes15:59

       That's it. Yeah. It just gives me a little blanket of, "I've got this figured out."

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:03

       Yeah.

   13. CHChase Hughes16:03

       "I know what's happening."

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:04

       Good little, little security blanket.

   15. CHChase Hughes16:07

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       Aw. [laughs]

   17. CHChase Hughes16:09

       [laughs] And it's, it's, we need less certainty in the world.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:13

       Yeah.

   19. CHChase Hughes16:13

       We need more people to say, "As far as we know," before they say some shit.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       Yeah.

   21. CHChase Hughes16:17

       That sounds science-y. As far as we know. Why can't we just put that phrase i- in front of more things? And i- if you're doing DMT, it just... Or if anyone does DMT, maybe it's a hallucination. Uh, but, uh, Terence McKenna described it so well when he said, "Death by astonishment."

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:36

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CHChase Hughes16:36

       And i- there's no words. At the moment you try to, like, label anything that you see on, in the DMT space, it's like you're destroying, it's an act of destruction almost.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:46

       There's no words for it. They don't exist. 'Cause words ex- dis- words are sounds that we make with our face to describe known reality, and that i- there's no words for that experience.

   25. CHChase Hughes16:56

       Yeah. And we invented language for trading chickens and, and-

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:58

       [laughs]

   27. CHChase Hughes16:59

       ... spices and stuff.

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:00

       Yeah. [laughs]

   29. CHChase Hughes17:01

       That's, that's what language is for.

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:03

       Yeah.
8. 17:23 – 25:17

   UFC at the White House: logistics, scale, and a once-ever atmosphere

   1. CHChase Hughes17:23

      So I, I think that's... I wanna know about the UFC fight at the White House, man.

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:26

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   3. CHChase Hughes18:35

      Was the temperature ma- make everything different? Like-

   4. JRJoe Rogan18:38

      It was perfect. No, the temperature was perfect. I was very concerned about that. I was really concerned that these guys were gonna have to fight in the heat, but th- that was not an issue at all. It seemed like it was in the 70s, and, uh, it was, uh ... The storm, like miraculously, just passed us. Like there was all these-

   5. CHChase Hughes18:55

      Wow

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:55

      ... weather warnings. At one point in time, the fight was supposed to start at 8:00 PM, and at one point in time, um, one of the weather experts wanted us to start at 10:30. Yeah.

   7. CHChase Hughes19:08

      At night.

   8. JRJoe Rogan19:08

      'Cause there w- 10:30 at night, which would've been a disaster. 10:30 at night would've been a disaster 'cause it's a six-hour show.

   9. CHChase Hughes19:14

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan19:15

       You know, or close to it, whatever it is. Um, actually 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1. Uh, I guess it was five hours. But somehow or another, the storm just like almost like went around the White House. I mean, I don't know.

   11. CHChase Hughes19:30

       Mysteriously.

   12. JRJoe Rogan19:31

       I don't know what that is. I don't know if that's science or if that's consciousness. I don't know what steered the storm or if it's just random luck. It could've been all of the above. But, um, all my fears of the weather getting in the way of the fights were n- they were null. It w- di- didn't mean anything. And then there was this long sort of, um, ceremonial thing where they had jets fly over and, you know, they played music and all this different stuff. So by the time we got to the actual fights, dark out, perfect, the weather was perfect, so that, that wasn't an issue at all. And it was just the magnitude of the event. I know people saw it on television and it looked insane.

   13. CHChase Hughes20:13

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan20:13

       But the magnitude of the event being there live ... So there's the event that's taking place on the lawn of the White House, and that has 4,000-plus people.

   15. CHChase Hughes20:24

       The main event.

   16. JRJoe Rogan20:25

       Yes.

   17. CHChase Hughes20:26

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan20:26

       The, so the, the, the actual UFC. So there's, there's, uh, a bunch of military guys that are standing up in the back. There's like 1,000 of those, and there's 3,000-plus that are seated. All these people are seated. But then behind that, not that far, like 100 yards, 200 yards, whatever it is ... I guess it's more than that. Maybe 300 yards. There's the Ellipse. The Ellipse has 85,000 people-

   19. CHChase Hughes20:54

       This is on the grounds

   20. JRJoe Rogan20:54

       ... who got in for free. Yeah, it's, it's like in the whole White House ecosphere, whatever it is.

   21. CHChase Hughes21:00

       Wow.

   22. JRJoe Rogan21:00

       Yeah, so this area, they have giant screens set up, and they have, you know, huge speakers and sound. And so 85,000 fans are watching the fights live on the screens, and they can see the lights of the fucking, this claw dome in the distance, and they could see the White House in the distance where the fights are taking place, but they're watching it on massive screens with commentary. And it was insane. And you could hear them roar. So you hear the crowd from here, and then you hear 85,000 people in this fucking "Rah."

   23. CHChase Hughes21:36

       Oh, my God.

   24. JRJoe Rogan21:36

       You could hear it in the distance. It was insane. It was insane.

   25. CHChase Hughes21:42

       I-

   26. JRJoe Rogan21:42

       Just the magnitude of it was insane.

   27. CHChase Hughes21:44

       Unlike anything else you've ever done.

   28. JRJoe Rogan21:45

       Un- beyond. I, I mean, I'm a hyperbolic individual, and I'm always like, "This is the greatest. This is awesome." Like that was the wildest experience that I've ever had in my 20-whatever years of calling combat sports. There's nothing even close. Nothing even close. It was the greatest night of fights of all time. And it was the only night in the history of the sport where every single fight ended by a knockout.

   29. CHChase Hughes22:13

       Did they all?

   30. JRJoe Rogan22:14

       Every single one.
9. 25:17 – 30:43

   The main event classic: Gaethje vs. Topuria and the anatomy of an upset

   1. JRJoe Rogan25:17

      The main event was the greatest fight of all time. It l- literally was the greatest fight of all time. 'Cause the guy that won it, Justin Gaethje, was in many books a six to one favorite, a six to one underdog rather, which is crazy odds for a guy that was a interim lightweight champion, fought the best of the best, one of the best to ever do it, BMF champion. I mean, just super durable, real dangerous guy, and that's how good Ilia Topuria is. That's how good Ilia Topuria is.

   2. CHChase Hughes25:45

      Wow.

   3. JRJoe Rogan25:45

      Ilia Topuria, in many people's eyes, is the most skilled of the new generation, and the new generation is the most skilled of all time. And Ilia was like the top of the mountain. And most people thought that he was going to be too much, and he was too much for a while, and he almost took Justin out in the second round. And then Justin rallied, and then he, Ilia, it looked like he got really damaged in either the first or the second round, and he was having real trouble seeing out of one of his eyes. And then Justin started landing bombs in the third round. Ilia had slowed down quite a bit. It looked like he had g- really tried to finish Justin in the second. And sometimes when you try to finish a guy, you just hit the gas way too much, and you can't recover-

   4. CHChase Hughes26:29

      Yeah

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:29

      ... in between rounds. And Justin recovered, and Justin started battering Ilia in the third and fourth, and by the end of the fourth round, Ilia quit on his stool. Uh, he couldn't see-

   6. CHChase Hughes26:41

      Wow

   7. JRJoe Rogan26:41

      ... out of either eye. Uh, he, he had gotten kneed into the bo- into the body real bad when he was on the ground. Like you, Justin like literally, Justin had him down with his two hands and just smashed a knee into his ribcage, and you could see him go like that, and that was the end of the round. And then he had to retire on his stool. I mean, like-

   8. CHChase Hughes26:59

      You think he broke a rib?

   9. JRJoe Rogan27:01

      That g- probably could have happened, but I think m- maybe more significantly was the eye damage. Both of his eyes were swollen shut. His nose was fucked up. He had b- he'd taken so many punches to the face, and it looked like perhaps orbital damage, like maybe he had a fractured orbital.

   10. CHChase Hughes27:17

       Wow.

   11. JRJoe Rogan27:17

       'Cause his, his whole thing had just swollen up on both sides. He was unrecognizable. And you know, the guy hung in there as long as he could, w- but when you can't see, you can't see. And when you're, you're that battered-

   12. CHChase Hughes27:29

       Yeah

   13. JRJoe Rogan27:30

       ... sometimes it's smart to stop, and he's a very smart guy, and I think he realized, like, there's... I can't defend myself right now. I can't see. This guy's smashing me. Let's call it a day.

   14. CHChase Hughes27:41

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan27:41

       This is, this is what it is. Let's preserve my body and my brain and rebuild and come back another day. But for Justin, it was like one of the most epic things I've ever seen in my life. For him to, to win like that when everybody had counted him out. He was saying it was gonna be his last fight. It was like a retirement fight. 37 years old, been in the game forever. You know, fought who's a who's who of all time greats in the sport, and this was gonna be his last fight. And he's like, "What... If I can win the title at the White House, what an ending to a career."

   16. CHChase Hughes28:10

       Wow.

   17. JRJoe Rogan28:10

       And that's what everybody was saying, like, "Yeah, but you're not gonna, because you're fighting Ilia Topuria." And he was like, "All right, we'll see."

   18. CHChase Hughes28:18

       Wow.

   19. JRJoe Rogan28:18

       And he pulled it off. He pulled it... It was, it was insane. It was epic. Absolutely epic.

   20. CHChase Hughes28:25

       What do you think the, what do you think the mindset is between somebody who, you know, you walk in as an underdog and wind up winning, even though your, your skills may not be more proficient than the other guy? What do you think the mental difference is between the, like somebody who loses or wins?

   21. JRJoe Rogan28:39

       Well, there's a lot of factors. One of the factors is that Justin has always been incredibly durable. I mean, it might just be a genetic thing. He even joked around about it, like, "Science needs to take a look at this hard ass skin I have." Because he very rarely gets cut at all, and his, he's like, "I got these h- hard ass bones and hard ass skin." He, he was joking around, like science needs to study this. Um, and it's true, though. I mean, he really is insanely durable. He's been rocked and hurt before, and he's been stopped in fights before. He was knocked out in the last second of the last round by M- Ma- Ma- uh, excuse me, Max Holloway in the BMF title, which was an insane fight. But the guy is just, he has zero quit in him. It doesn't exist. Like, if you're looking for quit, you go into a room, it's empty. The quit room has no one in it. There's nothing in there.

   22. CHChase Hughes29:25

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan29:25

       He's not gonna quit. He can lose 'cause he's a human, but he's not going to quit. And he's also been into the deep trenches before, the deep trenches of these five-round, chaotic, insane battles. And oddly, he thrives in those kind of battles. He's a gu- he's described as the most violent man in the most violent sport. That's-

   24. CHChase Hughes29:49

       Wow

   25. JRJoe Rogan29:50

       ... we've all talked about him like that for years, since the moment he burst onto the scene when he fought Michael Johnson, uh, in the UFC at least. He just, he's a extraordinary dude, just a very extraordinary dude, and not the most technically skilled. Like Ilia looked technically better than him, but it didn't matter. Justin found a way to land shots, found a way to like pers- persevere from the early fi- early rounds where he was in real trouble, and just shocked the world. It was amazing. One of the coolest things I've ever seen in my life.

   26. CHChase Hughes30:21

       That's cool.

   27. JRJoe Rogan30:22

       It was fucking amazing.

   28. CHChase Hughes30:23

       I wish I was there.

   29. JRJoe Rogan30:23

       Oh my God. I, I talked a bunch of people into going that didn't wanna... Like Shane Gillis was thinking about not going. I'm like, "Bro, you gotta go. It's gonna be epic. It's gonna be a once ever thing. Not a once in a lifetime, once in anybody's lifetime. It's never happened before. It's probably never gonna happen again."

   30. CHChase Hughes30:38

       Probably not
10. 30:43 – 56:55

    Psychedelics for PTSD and addiction: bipartisan momentum and ibogaine’s ‘no fun’ credibility

    1. JRJoe Rogan30:43

       And so many people are trying to make it a partisan thing, like they're mad at people for being there. Like, "Oh, you support Trump." Like it's a f- it's a fucking fight at the White House

    2. CHChase Hughes30:51

       Yeah

    3. JRJoe Rogan30:51

       Doesn't mean you endorse foreign policy. Like shut the fuck up. Just please-

    4. CHChase Hughes30:56

       It's too much

    5. JRJoe Rogan30:57

       ... just please stop. And again, it's this thing, the ego thing, where people are just, they just want so badly, and on both sides for sure. You know, the right celebrates this as a win for masculinity and patriotism and all these different things. Like, okay, settle down. Everybody settle down.

    6. CHChase Hughes31:14

       Yeah

    7. JRJoe Rogan31:14

       We should all be together. And I mean, one of the things that I wanted to do when we went to the White House to try to push through psychedelics for therapy for veterans and people, you know, first responders, people struggling with PTSD, is, uh, you need to s- take these steps to give people a path to change their mind.

    8. CHChase Hughes31:39

       Exactly.

    9. JRJoe Rogan31:39

       I think that's the title of Michael Pollan's book, and it's a great way to describe it. Change your mind.

    10. CHChase Hughes31:44

        Yeah

    11. JRJoe Rogan31:44

        Like change your whole perspective. And there's no better way to change your whole perspective than a complete dissolving of your ego momentarily. Just-

    12. CHChase Hughes31:53

        Yeah

    13. JRJoe Rogan31:53

        ... at least for a while, just lock it all away, push it out, and then you get a chance to see what it actually is doing and the effect that it has-

    14. CHChase Hughes32:02

        Yeah

    15. JRJoe Rogan32:02

        ... when you let it back into your life.

    16. CHChase Hughes32:04

        Yeah. How mu- how much of these clothes do you wanna put back on?

    17. JRJoe Rogan32:06

        Right. [laughs]

    18. CHChase Hughes32:07

        You know?

    19. JRJoe Rogan32:07

        Right. I describe it as like Control, Alt, Delete for your brain, and then when your brain reboots, it has one folder, and that folder is just labeled my old bullshit.

    20. CHChase Hughes32:17

        Yeah

    21. JRJoe Rogan32:18

        And you have a decision to make. Either you go back into my old bullshit and you b- And most people do at least a little. I do a little.

    22. CHChase Hughes32:25

        Yeah

    23. JRJoe Rogan32:25

        But for sure you recognize that it's your old bullshit instead of thinking you are who you thought you are.

    24. CHChase Hughes32:32

        Yeah. And it's a lot of stuff that wasn't, didn't really belong to you. Like, it's like we act like decorator crabs-

    25. JRJoe Rogan32:39

        Right

    26. CHChase Hughes32:39

        ... all throughout our lives where we're just kind of-

    27. JRJoe Rogan32:41

        Right, right, right

    28. CHChase Hughes32:41

        ... grabbing these little things.

    29. JRJoe Rogan32:42

        [laughs] Yeah.

    30. CHChase Hughes32:43

        And you, you realize that. And I think that the... We were just talking about this politics thing. It s- I think separation is the number one greatest deception of all time. The, the biggest problem with, the biggest problem that we have and the biggest deception that we have is like we are separate. And the one thing that you see, um, and you do it some of the... And I mean this therapeutically. I don't mean you're like you're taking mushrooms and going to, going to a concert. Um, it- when you, when you do this like psy- therapeutic psychedelics, the first big realization you have is like, "Oh, shit, this is all me." Like we're all kinda connected. We might be one thing, but there's something here that's connecting all of us.
11. 56:55 – 1:04:45

    Sacred art and hidden traditions: mosques, Alex Grey, and psychedelic Christianity theories

    1. SPSpeaker56:55

       Yeah, I don't know.

    2. JRJoe Rogan56:55

       So we're looking at, uh, Jamie pulled up a bunch of photos of inside of mosques.

    3. CHChase Hughes56:59

       That one looked-

    4. JRJoe Rogan57:00

       And that, that in particular, that is absolutely a DMT experience. So here's the question.

    5. CHChase Hughes57:07

       Like, I feel like I've been to that-

    6. JRJoe Rogan57:09

       Right. How about this one?

    7. CHChase Hughes57:09

       ... location.

    8. JRJoe Rogan57:10

       I mean, that looks super DMT.

    9. CHChase Hughes57:13

       I've spent time there.

    10. JRJoe Rogan57:14

        Yeah.

    11. CHChase Hughes57:14

        Not in that mosque, but like-

    12. JRJoe Rogan57:15

        Right

    13. CHChase Hughes57:16

        ... in that dimension.

    14. JRJoe Rogan57:17

        What is that, uh, one, Jamie, to the upper left? You just, you, you scroll up, up left, upper left corner.

    15. SPSpeaker57:23

        This one?

    16. JRJoe Rogan57:23

        That, yeah. Look at that.

    17. SPSpeaker57:24

        I, I just, that's not-

    18. JRJoe Rogan57:24

        What the fuck is that?

    19. SPSpeaker57:26

        ... even seem real.

    20. CHChase Hughes57:26

        Is that 3D?

    21. SPSpeaker57:27

        Yeah, it does seem-

    22. JRJoe Rogan57:27

        Oh, you know what that is, dude? I think that's Alex Grey's place.

    23. SPSpeaker57:31

        Eh.

    24. JRJoe Rogan57:32

        Is it?

    25. SPSpeaker57:32

        It says it's in Iran, Iran.

    26. JRJoe Rogan57:34

        Oh, okay.

    27. CHChase Hughes57:35

        Oh my God.

    28. JRJoe Rogan57:35

        Well, well, you know what Alex Grey's doing? Do you know Alex Grey, the visionary artist?

    29. CHChase Hughes57:39

        Oh, yeah. Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan57:39

        Yeah. So his, uh, Chapel of Sacred Mirrors, this, uh, he has a real church that they built based on his artwork.
12. 1:04:45 – 1:08:43

    Amanita muscaria, Santa mythology, and why societies ban unity experiences

    1. CHChase Hughes1:04:45

       ... around the whole world? And have you heard the Christmas traditions as well?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:04:49

       Oh, yeah, yeah.

    3. CHChase Hughes1:04:50

       Like-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:04:50

       Santa Claus is a mushroom. [laughs]

    5. CHChase Hughes1:04:52

       Oh, wow. Oh my gosh.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:04:54

       And it's the same mushroom, the Amanita muscaria. The weird thing about the Amanita muscaria is it doesn't, uh, like, not a lot of people have had psychedelic experiences on it. Uh, it's a very weird mushroom.

    7. CHChase Hughes1:05:05

       Do you think it evolved maybe over time, or?

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:05:07

       It very well could have. Um, McKenna had some thoughts on it. He said that it could be, uh, seasonal. It could be location. It c- could be, like, where it is. It could be genetic variations. It could be ver- there's could be a lun- bunch of different factors.

    9. CHChase Hughes1:05:21

       And if you consume it by way of reindeer piss.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:05:24

        Right.

    11. CHChase Hughes1:05:25

        Yeah. [laughs]

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:05:25

        Well, not only that, people drink their piss when they consume it, and it gives them, like, the second dose, the second burst. So apparently, the psychedelic compounds come through the urine, and if you drink it, you just get a full straight blast.

    13. CHChase Hughes1:05:37

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:05:37

        And reindeer or, have been known to, like, knock shamans out of the way to drink their, their piss, because the reindeer are addicted to this mushroom.

    15. CHChase Hughes1:05:46

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:05:46

        Which is why they fly in the Santa Claus story.

    17. CHChase Hughes1:05:50

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:05:51

        [laughs]

    19. CHChase Hughes1:05:52

        And s- and I heard the story, these shamans would go around, pulled by dog sleds or something.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:05:58

        Mm-hmm.

    21. CHChase Hughes1:05:58

        And s- the snow was so high that they would drop the stuff down the chimney to-

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:06:03

        Right

    23. CHChase Hughes1:06:04

        ... these people. And it was fresh mushrooms or fresh Amanita or something, and in order to dry it out, you'd have to hang it by the fire.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:06:12

        Right.

    25. CHChase Hughes1:06:12

        And you-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:06:12

        And hang it over the trees, too, that people would put it on trees.

    27. CHChase Hughes1:06:15

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:06:15

        And that's where the t- decorating the Christmas tree is. Also, those mushrooms, the Amanita muscaria, has a mycorrhizal relationship with coniferous trees.

    29. CHChase Hughes1:06:24

        I didn't know this.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:06:24

        Yeah. So that's where they grow. They grow underneath the trees, just like the brightly packaged presents that are underneath the trees on Christmas.
13. 1:08:43 – 1:12:45

    Mushrooms, neuroregeneration stories, and panspermia: fungus as co-author of humanity

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:08:43

       Did you see that woman that had dementia that took five grams of mushrooms and slept for, like, 19 hours, and woke up, and then she could talk?

    2. CHChase Hughes1:08:51

       No.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:08:51

       You didn't see that story?

    4. CHChase Hughes1:08:52

       No.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:08:53

       Yeah. It was a recent story. There was a woman, she was non-verbal. She couldn't communicate. She couldn't dress herself, couldn't walk, couldn't do anything. Took five grams of mushrooms, slept for 19 hours, came back, started communicating, looked people in the eye, was able to change herself, was able to walk around.

    6. CHChase Hughes1:09:08

       How beautiful.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:09:09

       Crazy.

    8. CHChase Hughes1:09:10

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:09:10

       And then with subsequent doses, her condition improved even more. Yeah.

    10. CHChase Hughes1:09:14

        And you had, uh, I think it was Paul Stamets on.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:09:19

        Mm-hmm.

    12. CHChase Hughes1:09:19

        And he helped his mother through cancer, I think.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:09:21

        Mm-hmm.

    14. CHChase Hughes1:09:21

        Like, stage three cancer, with turkey tail or something. I ca- I can't remember what it was.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:09:26

        Well, there's a bunch of mushrooms that help with inflammation. There's a bunch of mushrooms that help with, uh, cognitive function. You know, lion's mane is, uh, famous for that.

    16. CHChase Hughes1:09:35

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:09:35

        You know, there's, there's some weird relationship that we have with fungus, and one of the interesting things about fungus, we think of it as like a plant, but it's not. It breathes air, breathes air like people do.

    18. CHChase Hughes1:09:47

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:09:47

        It's a weird thing. And it also can survive in a vacuum. It can survive in the vacuum-

    20. CHChase Hughes1:09:53

        Space

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:09:54

        ... of space. Yeah, which is the panspermia notion.

    22. CHChase Hughes1:09:57

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:09:57

        That mushroom spores were, came here riding on an asteroid, slammed into the Earth, and it might be one of the reasons why we're people in the first place. That's McKenna's idea, yeah.

    24. CHChase Hughes1:10:09

        Yeah. Of, of how we, like, separated from our-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:10:12

        Mm-hmm

    26. CHChase Hughes1:10:13

        ... ancestral, like, Cro-Magnon-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:10:15

        Yeah

    28. CHChase Hughes1:10:15

        ... uh, roots. Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:10:17

        Yeah. I mean, this whole idea that people were created by aliens, you know, maybe. Maybe those aliens are mushrooms. I mean, or maybe mushrooms is the way the aliens created people.

    30. CHChase Hughes1:10:27

        Yeah.
14. 1:12:45 – 1:22:18

    Editing memory with hypnosis: ‘one pixel’ changes, perspective shifts, and trauma reprocessing

    1. CHChase Hughes1:12:45

       Do you know the... Did I... I don't know if we talked about it last time. Uh, have I told you that, like, I figured out a way to edit memory?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:12:54

       No

    3. CHChase Hughes1:12:55

       Like you can do it with hypnosis

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:12:57

       So I know that you can introduce false memories into people's heads

    5. CHChase Hughes1:13:01

       Yeah

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:13:01

       And I know that people create their own false memories

    7. CHChase Hughes1:13:04

       Yeah

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:13:04

       So you've found a way to do that different than that?

    9. CHChase Hughes1:13:08

       Yes. And, uh, I make videos similar to this on my You- my YouTube channel, but, uh, I wanted to walk you through this process 'cause I think you would love it

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:13:18

        Okay

    11. CHChase Hughes1:13:19

        Um, so if I want somebody to be able to edit a memory, I need to make them good at that skill first. So, and we already edit memories. Every time we touch a memory, like if I think back to my wedding right now, I'll edit something, and I'll, I'll do it unknowingly.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:13:37

        Right

    13. CHChase Hughes1:13:37

        So if, if our brain is already an expert at making these changes, and then, like, before I f- I stop thinking about that wedding, my brain automatically clicks File, Save, right? And then so the next time I look back on it, the memory's gonna be there, but it won't, I won't see it as an edit. I'll just see it as that's the memory, no matter how many times I change it. Does that make sense?

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:14:00

        Yes.

    15. CHChase Hughes1:14:00

        Okay. So first we need to get them to start doing some of that stuff consciously. Um, so if you take somebody back to, let's say, a childhood bedroom when they're f- seven, okay? And you, you do it very vividly with hypnosis. So, like, you're, you're going in their file cabinet. You let them explore the bedroom, the details, all this kind of stuff. You make it extremely vivid and, and coherent. And then you have them pick up, like, a, a pencil, a really sharp, brand-new pencil, maybe from their s- pencil box from school or something, and they go over by the light switch in the bedroom and just make one dot on a wall. Um, and I figured this out talking to game developers. Uh, and I was talking to game developers about how people figure out ways to exit the map, to exit the playable area of the game 'cause it s- kind of feels like that's what psychedelics do, is, like, it lets us kind of exit this little playable map, uh, temporarily. So, uh, one of these game developers said, "Oh, you just ... If you can get somebody to modify one pixel, then they can modify the entire map." So if, if one pixel is glitching, then we can glitch, they can glitch all kinds of stuff. So I thought maybe we can do that in humans. So I've done this hundreds of times. Um, so you just make a mark on the wall r- with a pencil, and then you kind of fast-forward their life. So, like, you bring them to, like, say they were six. Now we're gonna bring them back into the room when they're eight. The bedsheets are different. Maybe the wall color changed, something like that. But the one thing they can do is walk over there to the light switch and see that that tiny little dot is still there. So something, and now you're starting to see that there's permanence through time. Does it make sense so far?

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:15:46

        Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    17. CHChase Hughes1:15:47

        So if, if we can get them to do that, like, 50 times, tiny change s-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:15:52

        You doing it through hypnosis?

    19. CHChase Hughes1:15:53

        Yeah.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:15:54

        Okay.

    21. CHChase Hughes1:15:54

        Oh, I mean, hypnosis is such a loaded-

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:15:57

        Right

    23. CHChase Hughes1:15:57

        ... crazy word. They're, they're relaxed, they feel safe, and their brain is in theta brainwave state most of the time, which is around seven hertz.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:16:04

        Yeah, I've been hypnotized. Um, and I thought it was gonna be like, uh, I didn't know what was going on. I was in another world. No. It's a, it's a very odd state of mind.

    25. CHChase Hughes1:16:14

        Yeah. It's kind of like guided meditation or-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:16:17

        But you feel very conscious. It's not-

    27. CHChase Hughes1:16:19

        Yes

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:16:19

        ... and I remembered it. It wasn't-

    29. CHChase Hughes1:16:21

        Yeah

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:16:21

        ... didn't wake up my pants off. It was, s- pretty normal.
15. 1:22:18 – 1:33:12

    Methylene blue, MAOI effects, and red light therapy: cognition, risks, and mechanisms

    1. CHChase Hughes1:22:18

       Yeah. Which methylene blue is an MAOI.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:22:21

       [lip smacks] Oh, interesting.

    3. CHChase Hughes1:22:22

       It's a pretty light, it's a pretty light form of it. But if you're on methylene blue and you do psychedelics, it's gonna deepen.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:22:29

       I could imagine. A lot of people are very hesitant about methylene blue. They don't like the idea of it. They think it's very dangerous or potentially dangerous, that we don't know enough about it.

    5. CHChase Hughes1:22:38

       We've been researching it since 1890-something, and it's in every emergency room.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:22:43

       Is it really?

    7. CHChase Hughes1:22:43

       Every emergency room.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:22:45

       Have you ever heard of anybody having bad experiences with methylene blue or side effects or?

    9. CHChase Hughes1:22:49

       There are some contraindications. So people that are on a high dose SSRIs.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:22:54

        Oh, okay.

    11. CHChase Hughes1:22:54

        Um, and if you're taking an MAOI, you can't eat aged cheese and wine 'cause of this chemical called tyrosine that's in there.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:23:01

        Oh.

    13. CHChase Hughes1:23:02

        Uh-

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:23:02

        Aged cheese.

    15. CHChase Hughes1:23:04

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:23:05

        So something about the, the fungus?

    17. CHChase Hughes1:23:08

        No, it's a-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:23:08

        The mold?

    19. CHChase Hughes1:23:09

        Yeah, maybe. There's ... Red wine and aged cheese both have tyrosine, uh, which when you mix tyrosine with an MAOI, it could, can cause a hypertensive crisis.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:23:19

        Oh.

    21. CHChase Hughes1:23:20

        So, like, a super blood pressure issue.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:23:24

        Oh.

    23. CHChase Hughes1:23:24

        But I, I haven't heard anybody having a, a bad time with it. But you, you gotta stick to the right dose. Talk to ... Obviously, you gotta talk to a doctor about it, uh-

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:23:32

        Well, let's ask AI. Um, put that into AI. Put that into Perplexity. See what is the negative consequences of taking methylene blue. Maybe there's something that we don't know. Um, Huberman's a little bit hesitant about it, uh, you know?

    25. CHChase Hughes1:23:50

        Yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:23:50

        You see? And I've talked to other people that say it seems like for certain metabolic conditions it's very beneficial, but for people that have a normal metabolic, like, y- your, your whole system is working fine and perfect, it might n- not just not be necessary, but might cause harm. But they were very vague about what that harm would be.

    27. CHChase Hughes1:24:09

        I don't think it's for everybody. It may not be for everybody. Uh, it def- it saves my life, uh, for sure. Uh, which, I mean, I could stop taking it today and I'll have a seizure within 48 hours. And-

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:24:20

        That's wild.

    29. CHChase Hughes1:24:21

        Yeah. But I-

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:24:22

        You said you had a seizure at last time after you visited here?
16. 1:33:12 – 1:41:31

    Psyops literacy: Chase’s scoring framework, ‘Station One,’ and making influence expensive

    1. CHChase Hughes1:33:12

       Which is why, like, I think it's so important for people to be literate, extremely literate in what's going on with your phone, what's going on with your brain, and psyops, like the shit that we see coming out of the news right now. And I'm the guy that trains psyops. Um, in two days after I leave here, I'm going to Fort Bragg to train the United States Army Psyops Division.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:33:33

       [laughs]

    3. CHChase Hughes1:33:34

       I'm the, I'm the guy.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:33:36

       What are you training them in?

    5. CHChase Hughes1:33:37

       Uh-

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:33:37

       Are you allowed to say?

    7. CHChase Hughes1:33:38

       In psyops. Uh-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:33:39

       Oh, just training them how they work and how to do it?

    9. CHChase Hughes1:33:41

       Yeah, like how, I... Yeah, I'm the body language, like, people-reading guy. I don't know if you've ever seen our YouTube channel, The Behavior Panel.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:33:48

        Yes.

    11. CHChase Hughes1:33:48

        Me and a couple of guys.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:33:48

        You got a great YouTube channel. It's awesome. Really good.

    13. CHChase Hughes1:33:50

        Thank you. Thanks. And, uh, I have another one with three other behavior profilers where we break down videos of people in interrogation and, and stuff like that. And it, I think it's so important to be literate in a lot of this stuff, and how does our brain work? How can I be compromised? And so I created a tool, and, uh, I gave it to Jamie, uh, before we started the show, that, that will give you a 1 to 100 score on how likely something is a psyop.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:34:18

        Oh.

    15. CHChase Hughes1:34:19

        And-

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:34:19

        Is it an app, or is it, like, on a website?

    17. CHChase Hughes1:34:22

        It's just a PDF.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:34:23

        Okay.

    19. CHChase Hughes1:34:23

        Uh, and you can run anything through it, and see... And you can run it historically and see what, what's a psyop and what's not.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:34:29

        Oh.

    21. CHChase Hughes1:34:30

        And it's, it's kind of subjective, but at least you get a standardized score for everything, and you can see, like, if you went to, um, like the invading Iraq initially.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:34:43

        Okay. That's a good one.

    23. CHChase Hughes1:34:44

        That would score a 98 out of 100 for, for psyop-

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:34:47

        [laughs]

    25. CHChase Hughes1:34:47

        ... just on this tool here. So, like, it kinda goes in layers. So step one is, like, this pre-ignition. Like, I have societal stuff going on. There's moral panic. Then operational, are there drills happening that are kinda similar to this? Military ramping up. The regulatory, obviously that's pretty there. Like, bills getting passed at 2:00 in the morning and, and-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:35:09

        Right

    27. CHChase Hughes1:35:09

        ... 5,000 pages

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:35:10

        Censorship bills.

    29. CHChase Hughes1:35:10

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:35:11

        Right.
17. 1:41:31 – 2:20:44

    COVID, media capture, and Operation Mockingbird: why trust collapsed

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:41:31

       Which I do think that if it wasn't for Spotify, and it wasn't for the fact that I was primarily on Spotify, I probably would've been removed during the whole COVID thing.

    2. CHChase Hughes1:41:41

       Oh my God, yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:41:42

       Yeah. 'Cause we were regularly questioning a bunch of different things that could've got you removed. We were regularly questioning, regularly questioning the COVID lab leak. We were regularly questioning whether or not there was any danger to taking these vaccines. Regular- regularly questioning alternative medical care.

    4. CHChase Hughes1:42:01

       Yeah. And that, that was maybe the, the biggest psyop of our lifetimes.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:42:07

       For sure. And now, now confirmed.

    6. CHChase Hughes1:42:10

       That woke up normal people.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:42:12

       Uh-huh.

    8. CHChase Hughes1:42:12

       That woke up average people.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:42:14

       Oh, yeah.

    10. CHChase Hughes1:42:14

        Because it was so obvious.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:42:16

        Woke up a lot. Some of them, like, they just can't shake them. They're on 15 Ambien's, fucking-

    12. CHChase Hughes1:42:22

        Yeah

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:42:22

        ... they're just, they're gonna stay.

    14. CHChase Hughes1:42:24

        I've got family members that are very trustful of government, and, uh, they're like, "No, Chase, if, if the, if it was gonna go bad or if it was this thing, they, they would tell us." And I was like, "These are the people who gave you the food pyramid."

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:42:34

        Right.

    16. CHChase Hughes1:42:35

        [laughs] And told, told you to eat-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:42:36

        Right

    18. CHChase Hughes1:42:36

        ... 16 loaves of bread every day.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:42:38

        [laughs] And, uh, and yeah, it's, uh, it's... The idea that the government is here to help you is like, that's the dumbest-

    20. CHChase Hughes1:42:47

        That was Reagan's best line.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:42:48

        Yeah. That they're the five...

    22. CHChase Hughes1:42:50

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:42:50

        "We're the government, and we're here to help."

    24. CHChase Hughes1:42:54

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:42:54

        Yeah. Yeah, that's, um... It's interesting how people will believe in the government if it is convenient, but then if the other people are the government, then it's 100% negative.

    26. CHChase Hughes1:43:06

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:43:06

        It's like w- people are so ideologically captured, and that's why people are completely unwilling to look at anything positive that one of the other members, someone from the other side proposes.

    28. CHChase Hughes1:43:21

        Exactly.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:43:21

        Which is what, what I found really fascinating about the response to the Trump thing. You know, the Trump, uh, passing the psychedelic initiative and trying to push through ibogaine and psilocybin and all these different ... methods that people have used to overcome addiction and treat all these different things that we talked about before

    30. CHChase Hughes1:43:41

        Yeah
18. 2:20:44 – 2:32:00

    Elicitation tactics and the closing ‘leaderboard’ ethic: leave people better than you found them

    1. CHChase Hughes2:20:44

       Can I teach you a tactic right now?

    2. JRJoe Rogan2:20:46

       Sure.

    3. CHChase Hughes2:20:46

       That will be good for these people?

    4. JRJoe Rogan2:20:47

       Fuck yeah.

    5. CHChase Hughes2:20:48

       All right. How much time do we have?

    6. JRJoe Rogan2:20:49

       We got time.

    7. CHChase Hughes2:20:50

       Okay. All right, so this is a CIA method called elicitation, and it was invented by this guy, John Nolan. And, um, so the basic premise is you're gonna get mo- the more sensitive information you need out of a person, the less questions you should be asking. So here's how it works. You can get sensitive information out of people better with statements than questions. So there's, there's a few different types of these statements. So the first one is called a provocative statement, and the provocative statement is just making a commentary on what somebody said.

    8. JRJoe Rogan2:21:28

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CHChase Hughes2:21:28

       So let's say I just went through X and Y and Z, and you're like, "So, so basically," and then you kinda recap what I said.

    10. JRJoe Rogan2:21:34

        Right.

    11. CHChase Hughes2:21:35

        And so no question, and then I'll kind of... Yeah, and so I'll kind of, I'll keep giving you a little bit more information. The second is triggering a need to correct the record. So let's say that you and I are in a grocery store, and I say, "Joe," um, let's say you don't get recognized, but let's say, "Go over there. I want you to, within 60 seconds, I want you to find out how much the girl that's stocking the shelf over there makes per hour." So you might go over there and be like, "Hey, how much do you make an hour?" But instantly you're weird, and that feels like an interrogation, right? But if you went over there and you said, "Hey, I just read this article. Everybody that works at Whole Foods got bumped up to $26 an hour. That's fantastic. Congratulations." And she's like, "What?"

    12. JRJoe Rogan2:22:19

        [laughs]

    13. CHChase Hughes2:22:21

        "We only make 22." A- and now she doesn't feel interrogated.

    14. JRJoe Rogan2:22:26

        Mm.

    15. CHChase Hughes2:22:27

        And the answer came from correcting the record. Does that make sense?

    16. JRJoe Rogan2:22:31

        Yes.

    17. CHChase Hughes2:22:32

        So now you're not a weirdo who's asking how much she makes.

    18. JRJoe Rogan2:22:35

        Yeah.

    19. CHChase Hughes2:22:35

        So now you got the sensitive information, and it felt like it was just an, a flowing conversation. So the third is disbelief. So somebody says something, and you don't get Jamie to pull up anything, but the disbelief is like they say, "Oh, and I've even worked with X and Y and Z, or I've done this one thing." You're like, "What? There is no way. That just sounds impossible." And then they're like, "No, no, and..." And they'll keep going because there wasn't a question. So imagine if someone started telling you something sensitive and you're like, "Yeah, tell me more. Tell me more about that."

    20. JRJoe Rogan2:23:08

        Hmm.

    21. CHChase Hughes2:23:08

        It seems like you're kind of wanting to pull things out. So the more that you can use statements, the more they're just gonna keep feeling completely comfortable giving you stuff.

    22. JRJoe Rogan2:23:18

        What's interesting is I don't know those methods, but I do all three of those.

    23. CHChase Hughes2:23:22

        You do a lot of that stuff.

    24. JRJoe Rogan2:23:23

        Yeah.

    25. CHChase Hughes2:23:24

        I just wanted you to be able to consciously grab onto it.

    26. JRJoe Rogan2:23:26

        I just do it instinctively.

    27. CHChase Hughes2:23:28

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan2:23:29

        When I-

    29. CHChase Hughes2:23:29

        I've seen you do it m- many times

    30. JRJoe Rogan2:23:31

        ... when I [sniffs] -

Episode duration: 2:32:00