EVERY SPOKEN WORD
115 min read · 22,546 words- 0:02 – 0:15
Sunlight confusion: health boost vs. cancer risk
- JRJoe Rogan
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music]
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
All right. Very nice to meet you, man.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
You too. Thanks for having me.
- 0:15 – 2:46
Rowan’s shift: studies showing cognitive, metabolic, and lifespan benefits
- JRJoe Rogan
Thank you. And thanks for doing this work, because you wanna talk about a subject that's confused so many people. Is the sun good for you? Is the sun killing you? Why does it give you vitamin D if it's bad for you? Why, why do people get skin cancer if it's good for you?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah. It's, it's super complicated, and the messaging has not sort of admitted that, and that was, yeah, a big impetus for the book.
- JRJoe Rogan
When ... What was your opinion of sun exposure before you started writing this?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So I had, you know, I had inherited the conventional wisdom from the institutions that it was really bad. At the same time, I'll admit that my instincts, um, were that maybe it wasn't as bad as they were leading me to believe, 'cause whenever I was in the sun I felt good. And I live in Vermont. At the ... By the time winter was reaching like month six, I felt bad, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So I was like, "There's more here than, uh, than we're being told."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. That's, that was my wife's opinion. She's like, "The sun can't be bad. It always feels good when you go out there." I'm like, "I don't know. It's a little more complicated than that," but that is a-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... the instinct. Like, it feels great when you're in the sun. Like, ah. It's like your body wants it.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Your body wants it. I mean, we, we now know that it literally triggers the release of opiates in the brain, sunlight. So yeah, your body wants it, and your body rewards you when you get it.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what is the issue? Well, well, let's g- go back to the beginning. So you had this idea that sun exposure is probably giving people cancer, and sunscreen is good. You need to wear sunscreen. Stay out of the sun. So when you started going into the research, what made you shift your opinion?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So it really started for me like seven or eight years ago. Um, I was on this, like, science journalism fellowship. So I was just doing research, and some of those studies hit, the one about opiate release in the brain, uh, other studies showing that when light hits skin, um, cognition actually improves. Like, your metabolism cr- cranks up a little bit when it, when your body feels sunlight coming in. Um, and I thought, that's interesting. C- um, that's all good stuff. Then I came across a couple other studies that seemed to indicate that, uh, sunlight could lower blood pressure, which was really interesting. So then, you know, I still had the sense sunlight bad, right? So then I remember just, like, Googling, like, "So how much does sunlight, like, shorten your lifespan?" Um, and, like, the punchline is sunlight seems to extend your lifespan. So when I s- hit that, I was like, "Why are we not hearing this?" So that was the beginning.
- 2:46 – 4:54
How UV can cause cancer: DNA damage and free radicals
- JRJoe Rogan
And so then, so what is the problem? Like, what, what is the issue with sunlight? Like, when you think about s- skin cancer, what are the confounding factors that lead to skin cancer? Are we completely aware of that?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
You know, it's more complicated than we thought. So sunlight does, uh, increase your risk of skin cancer. But it, depending on the type of skin cancer you're talking about, it's not necessarily a, like a linear relationship. So yes, in general, too much sun increases your risk of skin cancer, but yeah, the question is, what are the confounding factors? How important is skin cancer compared to these other things? If sunlight reduces your risk of other diseases, how does that weigh against the risk of skin cancer? Um, so it, it's not the type of thing that can, you know, be done in a 30-second PSA.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. So, so sc- sun cancer that does c- cause skin cancer ... Or excuse me, sun exposure that does cause skin cancer, what, what is causing it? Why is it happening?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So, um, ultraviolet light, which is the most energy intense part of the solar spectrum, um, when those photons of light hit your skin, they go inside, right? We, we absorb all wavelengths of light to a greater or lesser degree, and that super high energy ultraviolet light, if it hits a DNA molecule, it can mess up the DNA molecule, and then that can lead to mutations and skin cancer. Um, then it can also indirectly cause skin cancer, um, by creating, uh, what are called reactive oxygen species, which are free radicals basically. So it energizes these, um, atoms that start to steal electrons from other atoms and cause a little chain reaction, which is what a free radical is. Um, so ultraviolet light can increase your free radicals, and it can directly damage DNA. So that's why it can cause skin cancer. So it was basically that, learning that one fact back in, like, the '40s and '50s, um, that made scientists start to say, "Uh-oh, light, skin cancer, maybe we should think about how much sun we're getting."
- 4:54 – 8:17
Vitamin D and rickets: the early pro-sun era and heliotherapy craze
- JRJoe Rogan
But this wasn't, uh, universally accepted, right? There were some people that even back then thought that sun exposure was very healthy for you. Like, when did we figure out that sun causes the body to produce vitamin D?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, that was an important part, and it's a big part of the story, I think, because that was really back in the '20s that we figured that out. And then even a little earlier we realized that, um, sunlight could prevent rickets. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Rickets?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah. So rickets is a, like, soft bone disease. Like, if you, you don't ha- get enough, um, calcium in your bones when you're a kid, when you're a baby, you get soft bones, you get rickets. Really bad disease. Um, and it was, in the Industrial Revolution, kids starting getting rickets, started getting rickets. Um, farm kids never got rickets. Then suddenly kids are working in factories, they are living in cities that are choked with coal, coal smog, they're living in tenement buildings, they're never seeing the sun, and they all start getting rickets la- late 1800s. Uh, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is nutrition a factor in that?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Vitamin D. It was all vitamin D.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ju- Oh.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
At first they thought maybe it was vitamin A, um, but the, it turned out it was, that was how vitamin D was discovered Was, um, some doctors figured out that it could solve kid- rickets in kids, and then they figured out that if sun hits skin, that's how we made vitamin D. Then they figured out-
- JRJoe Rogan
How did they figure that out?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Um, they tested, [laughs] they did some tests on, uh, um, dogs. Actually, one of the guys who figured it out, he, um, he was pre- he had a hunch that that's what it was. Like they noticed the kids in the country wouldn't get rickets, and kids in the city did get rickets. So they're like, "I wonder if it's sunlight." So then a guy took dogs and, and this is, I think Scotland, stuck them in a, um... They, they actually thought it was dietary. He stuck them inside in this like little like warehouse and fed them oatmeal, which is what everyone in Scotland ate at the time. And the dogs got rickets, and he thought it was the oatmeal. He's like, "Okay, so something about diet," but then he, he got lucky 'cause he had deprived the dogs of sunlight, [laughs] and that's why they got rickets. Um, so then eventually they realized that, um, light hitting s- cholesterol molecules in the skin actually converts the molecules to vitamin D. So vitamin D is like downstream of cholesterol, but it takes that same ultraviolet light that can screw up your DNA. It actually breaks a bond in the cholesterol molecule, which allows it to, it gives it some movement, and it flips around into a new form that's vitamin D. So once they figured that out, um, then they're like, "Sun's really good for you." So we had this era in like the '20s, '30s, and into the '40s when everyone thought sun would cure everything, and they like went after it hard. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah. Like, they, parents would send their kids up into the Alps in like the '20s to institutes for heliotherapy. Kids would ski around in their underwear-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... take classes in their underwear. There's awesome photos from this, this era. Um, like the instructors are in their underwear in the mountains outside in Switzerland teaching the kids, uh, and everyone looks really healthy, right? So there, there's kind of like this idea that you couldn't get too much light, so people were literally burning themselves on purpose for health.
- 8:17 – 9:59
Melanoma’s real pattern: burns, intermittent exposure, and childhood risk
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that the issue? Is burning a giant part of the issue?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah. So to give it away, uh, now it looks like for melanoma, which is the most dangerous type of skin cancer, it's associated with burning strongly, but not with like g- gentle, moderate, everyday sun exposure.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, um, how much of a factor is skin type? Like, uh, people that are pale or have freckles and red hair, blonde hair. Like how, how much of a factor is that in skin cancer, and can they mitigate that by s- like gentle, slow exposure, like a little bit here, a little bit there, and slowly build up?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, huge. Like skin type is kind of everything.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
People who have really dark skin basically don't get sun-induced skin cancer, almost never. Um, and the, uh, you know, the authorities don't tend to talk about that 'cause they want things to be... They wanna have like these one-size-fits-all recommendations, but those recommendations to basically always avoid the sun are written for the super fair people, especially if you have red hair, orange freckles. Then, um, you actually have a mutation in your melanin gene that makes you super susceptible to skin cancer from sunlight. So if you've got, if you've got that phenotype, lots of moles, red hair, uh, freckles, you do have to be really careful, and you can't, you, you can only do so much. Like you're not gonna tan that much anyway. Your melanin's just different. Everybody else, yeah, you're, you're much less susceptible, and you can tan, uh, you know, you can make more melanin pretty easily through tanning.
- 9:59 – 21:00
Melanin, peptides, and ‘bro science’: melanotan and natural adaptation
- JRJoe Rogan
I wonder what, if any, effect... Have you ever heard of that, I don't, I can't remember the name of the peptide, but there's a peptide that people are taking now that causes their body to generate melanin, and they get really dark.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's really weird.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, and I don't know what's going on there exactly. It seems like that peptide is maybe making you... There's things called photosensitizers that make your skin super sens- re- like, like you just absorb solar radiation really well then, but not necessarily in a good way, and that can make you make tons of melanin to try to compensate. So I wonder, that peptide might be triggering, um, a j- like melanin as a compensation mechanism for extra protection from sunlight, or maybe it's just making melanin happen like independently of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... sunlight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you put it into Perplexity? All right, here it is. Um, mela- melati- melanotan. Melanotan? Melanotan. "A synthetic peptide, uh, analog of the naturally occurring hormone-"
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"... A melan- melanocyte-stimulating hormone. Stimulates the body's melanocytes to produce melanin, resulting in a dark tan. It's largely unredi- unrel-" [clears throat] Excuse me. "Unregulated, illegal in many regions for cosmetic purposes, and carry significant health risks." All right, what's the risks? Uh, "It's not approved by the FDA, uh, for cosmetic use. An unregulated market means purity..." Okay, but that's unregulated. "Notable risks include dermatological issues, rapid and uneven darkening of existing moles, the emergence of new moles, and hyperpigmentation, concerns that could mask or accelerate the development of melanoma." Uh, what is this? "Potentially damaging erections." What? Require-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Why erections?
- JRJoe Rogan
Requ- Oh, that's right. This apparently gives people raging erections.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Why, though?
- JRJoe Rogan
"Prolonged, painful, and potentially damaging ere-" Damaging.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Imagine you get a, an erection that goes so hard you redline the penis. [laughs] Medical and d- dermatological organizations strongly advise against the use of mela- melanotan, melanotan because it's unapproved. There are no clinically established safe dosages. Well, clear-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Well, weird, because that, um ... So alpha-MSH, the thing that it is mimicking-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... is, is that's how your body makes melanin. That's how your body's supposed to do it.
- JRJoe Rogan
You gotta see the before and afters, 'cause they're kinda bonkers.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, I've seen some people get super ... Well, the problem is it's Instagram. You never know what's real. That's, uh, that guy got a little tan. Let's see if, uh, there's any ... Okay, look how pale that ... See, but that's not ... How, how do we know if that's real?
- SPSpeaker
Just, like, there's, like, a light on him, and then it's not.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, and then he's in a fucking dark closet in the last picture.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, these are the best before and after photos I've seen.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is there o- ... Uh, that, that one right there. The low-
- SPSpeaker
This one
- JRJoe Rogan
... the, no, the one ... Yeah, that one.
- SPSpeaker
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at that guy. [laughs]
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs] Well, you know, it's a look. It's an interesting look.
- 21:00 – 26:19
Bob Marley and ‘non-sun’ melanoma: why melanoma gets weird
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Um, back to Bob Marley.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
He did die of skin cancer, and that confuses a lot of people.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So he had, he had melanoma on his toe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Um, so, and that was a kind of, uh, mel- melanoma that's not caused by the sun, and everybody gets it, no matter, uh, you know, what race you are, everybody gets it at this, the same rate, which is, it's, it's quite uncommon. Um, they know it's not caused by, um, the sun. But it, it, like it, it complicates things for people, 'cause people are like, "I got melanoma on my toe?" And, and they think it's from the sun, and they're like, "How did that happen?" Right? Uh, like, what's melanoma doing on there? But so it does, not all melanomas are, are caused by the sun. They, there's, um, you know, most probably are, but it gets really weird with melanoma. Um, it's associated with burning, with like intermittent sun exposure. Like, you work in an office all year, and then you go to Cancun and get fried.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
That's a pretty good recipe for melanoma. Um, history of sunburns also, like, will double your risk. Chronic exposure, where you have an outdoor job every day, lower than average risk of melanoma. So it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, so it gets weird.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like landscapers or something like that.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Landscapers have, outdoor workers have fewer, have a lower incidence of melanoma than office workers.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] Wow.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
And we don't hear that.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, no. I mean, I was, I was looking at Instagram the other day, and some poor guy had this, uh, uh, I don't know what happened to his face, but he had some sort of skin cancer, and they had to take a graft, and his, it was on his nose. So it was like a flap of skin was, like, almost covering over his eye. And, you know, his message was, "Wear sunscreen."
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"This is what happened to me."
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Well, so I mean, yeah, so I don't wanna downplay skin cancer, 'cause it sucks. It, when you get a, if it's, you know, they have to cut off a hunk of your ear or something.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
That definitely sucks. Even if it's not life-threatening, sucks.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So, but, and so, yeah, like, but that's generally from overexposure. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Burning
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... it's burning. You, it, every, all the experts I was talking with said, "Don't burn." Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, burning is the one that people always say that it's not just burning, it's burning causes damage that starts to appear years later.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, and there's, they're dialing in on that more and more. It can start mu- like ch- burns during childhood is actually the highest association for melanoma.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So don't burn when you're a kid. So we're all screwed, basically.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that sucks.
- 26:19 – 37:57
Dermatology backlash and the vitamin D pill problem
- JRJoe Rogan
Was there any pushback on this research? Like, when you, when you first started examining this and realizing that sun exposure has a lot of benefits, w- were any dermatologists saying, "Hey, this is dangerous information. You shouldn't say this"?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Hell yeah. Oh, I've been denounced multiple times by-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... the American Academy of Dermatology, like officially. They send an official letter when I write an article, and they say, "Nobody should be getting any sun exposure."
- JRJoe Rogan
That's their opinion? No one should be getting any sun exposure, regardless of the benefits, the vitamin D, the-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
No sun exposure without protection from either sunscreen or, you know, clothing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Um, and if, if that makes you vitamin D deficient, take a pill. So that's what, that's what needs to change 'cause those pills haven't panned out in tests. They don't work like natural D does for whatever reason.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, they don't work at all.
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you mean?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So everyone thought, like back in, like, the '80s, uh, '90s, everyone started noticing, scientists started noticing that, uh, people who naturally had lower amounts of vitamin D in their blood had, um, higher rates of all, like, the classic chronic diseases. So they started thinking, "Okay, vitamin D, it's like a magic, uh, pill almost. It'll cure, it'll reduce everyone's risk of all these diseases if we raise their rates of D." So they started recommending vitamin D pills, which I think are still, like, the number one supplement-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... in the world.
- JRJoe Rogan
I take it.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Um, so then they did all these clinical trials to prove that it would help. Huge, huge clinical trials, tens of thousands of people, follow-ups that went on, went for many years. None of them showed a benefit.
- JRJoe Rogan
No benefit in terms of your immune response?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
No benefit for any condition.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, did they take vitamin D along with vitamin K2 and with magnesium? Because that's what's recommended.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So I don't... I, I mean, there are a bunch of different-
- JRJoe Rogan
Apparently vitamin D-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... stuff
- JRJoe Rogan
... by itself is not effective, that you need vitamin D with K2 and magnesium, and I think there might be another one. Well, see, put that into Perplexity, please.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
See what it says, like what are the benefits of vitamin D, and what should it be taken with? 'Cause I think magnesium and K2 are the big ones, and that together they have a sort of a synergistic effect.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
That, that could be. Like, yeah, I'd be curious.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I think vitamin D by itself, the body has a problem absorbing it. It's like there's a lot of things like that. Like zinc is like that. You need an ionophore to absorb zinc, so you take it-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Right
- 37:57 – 40:41
Coffee detour: surprising evidence and mitochondria theories
- JRJoe Rogan
Is coffee good for you?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Coffee's awesome for-
- JRJoe Rogan
You know?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Coffee is shockingly-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... good for you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Talk to me. Let's go. [laughs]
- RJRowan Jacobsen
It's, it is fucking crazy how good coffee is for you. I've, I've been, like, startled by the, like, power of the evidence. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Uh, I've read both. I've read it's bad for you, and I dismissed it because, uh, I, I'm biased. [laughs]
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
And I love coffee. And, uh, I just, I just, it, it just tastes too good. It feels too good. I like it.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
It's, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
But I've read a lot of benefits about it.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
I think it's the best possible supplement.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
If you think of it as a supplement, I, it's the be- And I think it's all due to mitochondrial function. I think, uh, it, it makes your mitochondria just spin, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm. And is it particularly because of caffeine or coffee itself?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
It's the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is, is the coffee bean?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... caf- I, you know, I, I mean, caffeine... I think it's caffeine, but I, I wouldn't be surprised if there's other stuff in coffee that's contributing 'cause, you know, like, tea doesn't seem to quite, like, deliver the goods like, like coffee does.
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Um, but caffeine is actually, um... The plants are making it to kill bugs.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Right? It-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... because it makes the bugs' mitochondria run out of control, and they basically, like, blow up. Um, it does that to us, but we have these other, like, like, governors, like, that come in and, and slow down that ramp-up, so we get the nice ramp-up without the explosion. So, so it's good. Um, so it makes... It, it, you know, we, we produce energy more efficiently with less, uh, wear and tear.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's all I need to hear. I'm in. [laughs]
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
I just love coffee. I'm not giving it up. But I've heard many people say that... Michael Pollan had a really interesting anecdote. Uh, he laid off coffee for, I think, three or four months as an experiment, and then he had a cup of coffee, and he said it was like taking a psychedelic.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- 40:41 – 48:02
Red light therapy and the coming era of ‘light medicine’
- RJRowan Jacobsen
But I think it's gonna change. I think, actually, um... Like, like I said, I think light m- medicine is actually gonna become very important in the next 10, 20 years, and dermatologists are kind of positioned to be, like, the leaders on that stuff 'cause, like, uh, skin is the primary, like, interface with light for our bodies, and, you know, they should be experts on all this. Um, you know, you know red light therapy is a big thing now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Um, and dermatologists are doing that, uh, even though the evidence isn't great for that, but I think there's probably something there. Um, but they should... Basically, I think they need to be thinking more about l- all of these different wavelengths of light as healing modalities and how to, you know, work them into, like, regular, like, programs.
- JRJoe Rogan
I've talked about this before, so I apologize to anybody listening, but I've essentially s- completely stopped my macular degeneration with red light therapy.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Wow. Yeah. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Not just stopped it, but reversed it. Like, I don't need reading glasses anymore. I've been using a red light bed for about two years now, and from the time I started using it, within about a month, I started seeing benefits. And so Gary Brecka was on the podcast, and he explained it to me, and so I, I went out and bought one of these really expensive... It's like a tanning bed.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
This thing you lie in, and I do it three times a week for 20 minutes.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So all over?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yep. You... Naked.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just lie down in there, and I keep my eyes open. And, uh, they t- you know, I went to a tanning bed once... Uh, not a tanning bed, a l- a red light bed once at a, a health clinic, and they were like, "You gotta wear these goggles, and make sure you close your eyes before the light goes on." I was like, "Okay." I did all that, and apparently there's some benefit that even when blindfolded, it incl- increases your vision.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, for sure. It's, um... And I, again, I think mitochondria are part of that answer. The-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... there's a guy at, uh, University College London, Glen Jeffrey, who this is his whole field, um, optometry and, uh, red light, and he has shown, uh, in multiple different animals, including humans, that, um, red light improves mitochondrial function and, and, and improves vision.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I mean, I'm 58 And for me to be 56 and saying, "I'm fucked," I ha- I, I had these fucking things everywhere. I had these all o- these reading glasses, I had them all over my house. I'd gotten up to 3X. These are the cheap Amazon ones. I had a nice pair, but I keep losing them, so I just, I went out and bought cheap ones. They seem to work. And it was just fine for looking at a computer, r- you know, reading my emails, reading my phone, and I needed them to read my phone. I don't need them anymore, like, at all.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't use them anymore. My a- my vision's not perfect. It's not as good as it was when I was 20, but it is way better than it was when I was 56.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
See, and I, yeah, I think... Y- so the, um, the, uh, in the eye, the mitochondria in the eyes have to fire faster than any mitochondria anywhere else in the body. The eyes burn through energy like, like no other cells, um, 'cause it's like, you know, it's kind of the toughest task. It's like they gotta go super fast. Um, so they, yeah, they, those mitochondria need to be on top of their game, and it seems like red light benefits that in particular.
- JRJoe Rogan
What seems so closed-minded that these dermatologists aren't willing to say, "Maybe we're looking at just a, a insufficient amount of data. Maybe we're looking at this wrong. Maybe the whole thing is much more nuanced, and maybe there's benefits if done correctly"? I just don't understand why they're not wi- if there's all this data, which clearly you show in your book that there's a, a tremendous amount of data, why?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
You know, like, um, so there's this, like, saying attributed to, uh, Max Planck, who's this, like, quantum physicist, "Science advances one funeral at a time."
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Right? So I think we gotta let the old guard, like, die off a little bit, but I, I guarantee you there's a, a young generation coming in who's gonna be really interested i- in light and how they can use it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, certainly. Well, I think there's so many conversations available online now from actual researchers and people that have put in the time and put in the work and explored things from this position that like, "Hey, maybe the old guard are not correct," and the data seems to show that that's true.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, and it's fun. I mean, s- playing with light, it's super fun. So, like, this is a way you can, you can, like, make your w- world a little bit richer, is starting to think about this stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's also like, d- don't you want to be informed? And if there's, if we do understand that it has an effect on mitochondria, and there is all this evidence that red light seems to have some benefits, like, wouldn't... I just don't understand how someone could be an expert in skin and ignore that.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Well, I think that... And they'll be o- they won't object to the red. They're, some of them are using red light therapy 'cause r- there's no risk of skin cancer-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... from red. It's only the UV-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- 48:02 – 52:03
Skin tone, equity, and evolution: why one-size sun rules don’t fit
- RJRowan Jacobsen
I have. When, I've reached out, and I get the boilerplate. Like, "We don't want anyone in the sun. Take your D pills. Doesn't matter," uh, well, and th- the one that really, um, that I think has gotta change is the skin color question 'cause fine to, to, you know, go with the, the rec- recommendations for avoiding sun for people with fair skin. But for people with dark skin who have almost no risk from, uh, the s- from sun-induced skin cancer and can benefit hugely from, like, h- things that will lower blood pressure and lower, lower cardiovascular disease, like, it seems like you're not being fair to those people.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not only that, it makes you feel better, which is very important just for sanity.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
I mean, that, I think that gets underplayed. Like, mood a- and happiness is kinda the whole deal, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
And there's just no question that, uh, sun exposure makes you happier.
- JRJoe Rogan
I spent a week, uh, with my friend Brian Callen and Steve Rinella in Alaska, in Prince Edward's Island, and, uh, it rains there, like, 350 days a year.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
And we got rained on for the entire week, and then when I came back to LA, uh, I was driving around and the sun was magnificent. It felt so good. I stood outside, I closed my eyes, I, like, stretched my arms wide, like I was just taking it all in, and I called my friend Steve up. And I said, "Dude," because we were in the rain for, like, a week, I go, "I'm in LA right now in the sun, and it feels amazing. I never felt the sun like this before." It's 'cause, like, my body was saying, "You didn't get enough of this for a week. Now take it in and we're gonna reward you with all these amazing endorphins and good feelings." Like, if that was a drug, that drug that I took, like, if depressed people could take whatever I felt when I was out in the sun after a week in the rain, they would take it every day. They would... It would change the world. You'd, like, "I could feel like this all the time?" And it went away. You know, it went away 'cause LA, it's sunny all day long every day. [laughs]
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Right, right.
- JRJoe Rogan
So eventually I got accustomed to it, but that feeling that I get, that I got after the week in the rain, and coming back and just be like, "Ah." It was incredible. It was like a drug. A, an amazing-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
It is a drug
- JRJoe Rogan
... drug. A happy drug.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah. It's a, it's an awesome drug, and I, I've felt it for sure. You know, I, I, especially, like, early spring. If I leave Vermont and, and I, like, have something in LA, I'm just like, like, "Why is everyone not just dancing on the streets?" [laughs] 'Cause it feels so good.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
But the problem is, Los Angeles, they're so used to it.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're, they're so spoiled. Everyone there is so spoiled weather-wise. It's the perfect weather on Earth. It's, it's incredible.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Especially if you live in, like, Malibu, where it bare- it barely even gets hot, so you're dealing with that cool ocean breeze and it's sunny every day. You know, like, oh.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah. But how about here? Like, do you end up spending a, a lot of time outside here, or-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I do. Um, but I'm outdoors all the time.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I work out outside. I do a lot of farmer's carries outside. I, I practice archery, so I shoot my bow outside every day, and I love it. I, it feel, uh, I feel better. Even when it's hot out, I don't mind because I'm really kind of accustomed to it because of sauna use. I use the sauna every day, and I'm pretty religious about it. Um, so my body's really acclimated to heat, so it doesn't really bother me that much. I just try to bring a big jug of, 64-ounce jug of water with ice and electrolytes, and I just drink that while I'm out there.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So I'll shoot my bow for hour and a half, two hours in 105 degrees, and I'm fine. I love it. It feels good.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
I actually love that, too. Yeah. Like, as a kid in Florida, we, you know, we'd play basketball after school for hours in s- or in summer it'd be, it'd be 105 degrees. We'd, and then you just kinda turn the hose-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... you stick the hose in your mouth for quite a long time, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] Yeah. I mean, it feels great. It's just you have to make sure you're not dehydrated, and you have to make sure you don't burn. That's, that's kind of all it is.
- 52:03 – 1:03:52
Truck-driver face, UVA-through-glass, and what SPF really measures
- JRJoe Rogan
That's all it seems to be. Um, but we do see, like, truckers that, uh, have you ever seen those-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
You're talking about that famous photo.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs] That, that is a crazy photo.
- JRJoe Rogan
Crazy photo.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
So th- what we're referring to is there's a photo of this trucker, and the left side of his face from the sun coming in from the window looks like he's 20 years older on his left side-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
At least
- JRJoe Rogan
... than it is on his right side.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
It's like, it's like special effects. Somebody melted the left side of his face.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's that all about? Yeah, there's the guy.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
There he is.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... literally nuts.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's literally nuts.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
His whole, like, left side is just sloping off, basically.
- JRJoe Rogan
His left side looks like 100-year-old man, truck driver face.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs] And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Years behind the wheel driving a truck. Damage typically li- limited to the left side of the face. So it's literally called truck driver face.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah. Now, so this, that, that f- that, that photo and that study got used to, like, scare the shit out of a lot of people, try to keep them out of the sun. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Especially people that are vain and don't want that fucked up, wrinkly face. This episode is brought to you by Paleo Valley. You guys know I live a super busy lifestyle, so I need snacks that don't slow me down, and Paleo Valley is the perfect on-the-go snack. That's why I keep a couple beef sticks in my bag. Not just any beef sticks. Paleo Valley 100% grass-fed beef and finished sticks. Because let me tell you, beef sticks are not all equal. Most on the market use preservatives and additives like encapsulated citric acid and lactic acid to keep them shelf stable, but not Paleo Valley. They naturally ferment their beef sticks to preserve freshness and flavor without using any chemicals or questionable ingredients. That natural fermentation even supports a healthy gut. No MSG, no gluten, no sugar, no additives, no junk. Just clean, high-quality beef. These are tender and perfectly seasoned, not dry or tough like most sticks, and they've got five flavors right now. I'm all in for the jalapeno. Go to paleovalley.com/rogan and use the code ROGAN. That's paleovalley.com/rogan. Whoa, that's crazy. Look at the difference between-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow, that's literally bananas. What, so what they're showing back and forth is, uh, they're just taking the skin from the left side of the face and switching sides so you can see how much damage he's received on that side, the driver side.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah. And so there's a couple interesting things there. One, um, that is shocking. But the question to ask is, why doesn't every trucker look like that, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Like, if that's the problem, why does, why did, why him? Like, 'cause I've been driving a car for 45 years, and, you know, my face is-
- JRJoe Rogan
The same on the left as it is on the right.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- 1:03:52 – 1:35:57
Sunscreen chemicals, absorption, PFAS, and everyday exposure risks
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Endocrine disruption. There's a guy named Graham Peaslee at Notre Dame who, um, found that, uh, many, many cosmetic products of all kinds are actually contaminated with forever chemicals.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Um, and it's w- even if they don't have it on the ingredients, uh, like anything that's, like, water-resistant or super smooth is quite possibly gonna have forever chemicals in it, and some of it w- is actually coming from the plastic containers 'cause those get, um, they basically get f- like fluorinated with this, with like fluorine gas before they get anything in them, which is supposed to make them, like s- a little smoother, the ins- inside of the containers. But it turns out that actually leaks forever chemicals into the product, whatever's in there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm. Ugh.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
That, that's what he found.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, this is a problem with hot coffee when you're drinking it out of a paper cup.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Very similar, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. People don't realize, like, the paper cup is not capable of keeping that liquid.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It would turn to mush.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the reason why it doesn't turn to mush is 'cause there's essentially a condom, like-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
... around-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Exactly
- JRJoe Rogan
... the inside of the coffee cup.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, you know, Paul Saladino broke a coffee cup down to show what it looks like on the inside, and you're like, "Oh, no. You're pouring hot liquid into plastic, which you're never supposed to do." And it's also, like, most coffee machines, like a giant percentage of coffee machines have just plastic everywhere. I got rid of mine. That's why we use French press at the studio, and-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... I use that at home, too.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
I use it, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I have one of those little AeroPresses to make a, an individual cup of coffee.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's like the plastic is a real problem, and heating it is terrible. We, we know that about water bottles.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, you're never supposed to drink out of a water bottle that you leave in the hot sun in your car.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So now picture that bottle of sunscreen that's sitting in your car-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... cooking-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- 1:35:57 – 1:47:08
Science pushback patterns: fat, margarine, and institutional inertia
- JRJoe Rogan
When you, you do this kinda work, like, have you discovered any other things that people thought were unhealthy that turned out to actually probably be good for you, at least if used correctly?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, that's such a good question. So the one... Like, the metaphor that I think, um, we're all familiar with and that I think maps pretty perfectly here is, um, diet and, and fat, right? Like, the 20, you know, 25 years ago, Gary Taubes does that article in The New York Times Magazine, "What If Fat Doesn't Make You Fat?" And we were, we were still back in that era of, you know, carbs, cut all the fat outta your diet, carbs are good for you. Um, margarine, right? The margarine era. They g- the, the top experts got it 100% wrong back then. And when they got called on it by, like, you know, Taubes and others, Nina Teicholz. You gu- you guys have had Nina on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. I've had Taubes on as well.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Oh, yeah?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Okay. Um, you know, they fought hard, and they were totally wrong. Um, and we now, you know, we've, we've flipped, but it took a long time, and, you know, there was a little, little blood in the water during that process.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah. I was in the early days of that, and people were just warning me about my cholesterol. What about your cholesterol?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's really interesting is during the heart of that, um, when I... You know, I eat a lot of meat. My diet's mostly meat. And I went to the doctor, and I got all my levels checked, and he said, "Are you on some anti-cholesterol medication?" And I said, "No. Why?" And he goes, "You have very low cholesterol."
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Interesting, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was weird. And I go, "Dude, do you... If you saw my diet,"
- RJRowan Jacobsen
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
"My diet's, like, mostly meat and eggs and bacon."
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, that's, like, a giant percentage of my diet. I f- I thought that was really interesting.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
I think, I mean, yeah, I, I think the evidence is pretty good. Uh, like for keto, I think it's pretty strong. Aled Eynow, I think, is pretty much spot on on a lot of this stuff. But, but so yeah, so that, like the, the, the ultimate experts all said that was gonna kill you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
You know, Atkins back in the day, and they were all completely wrong. So there's a, you know, there- there's a long track record of the pros being wrong, I think, on a lot of things. But that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... that's a really good example, and people can wrap their heads around that one 'cause we now... I think a lot of people understand that low carb really works well for them.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, they completely flipped the food pyramid.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Right, which was a beautiful thing to do, and I can't believe it happened so fast. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Well, also with very little pushback.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's kind of interesting.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Super.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause the evidence had already compounded to the fact w- y- that, listen, for sure margarine is not a good thing, it's not a good substitute, but also that all these healthy fats that you're getting from milk, that you're getting from eggs, eggs in particular. We've been told eggs are bad for you, the cholesterol in eggs. Eggs, you could live off just eggs.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, probably the perfect food. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Like, eggs are fantastic. I always tell my friends that are vegans, I was like, "Listen, man, just get some chickens, and they're your pets, and they give you free food." It's like I have 16 chickens now, and I get eggs every day, and these chickens are pets. Like, I go, "Hey, ladies."
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah.
- 1:47:08 – 2:00:45
Chocolate, alcohol, oysters—and closing reflections on nuance and lifestyle
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah. Uh, are there any other things that you've noticed? Like, I know you've done work on chocolate, right?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Lot of, lot of work on ch- yeah, I've wr- I, like, my first sort of big magazine story, Outside Magazine, um, sent me to the Amazon on this, like, crazy hunt to, uh, like, with this German guy. It was basically Apocalypse Now with chocolate, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- RJRowan Jacobsen
With, this German guy was going upriver into the Amazon to try to find this wild cacao, like, to work with some of the indigenous groups to harvest wild cacao and make, like, the world's first wild chocolate. Um, so I went with him. Um, crazy, crazy trip, but, uh, but yeah, I s- I sort of fell in love with cacao, uh, on that trip. But it was... Like, we landed, w- we took a small plane, and we were gonna land on this river and meet a canoe that was gonna take us upriver to meet with these indigenous groups. So we found a, a runway, right? This is in the Bolivian Amazon. But this is, I've been in the Amazon all of, like, four minutes, right? The, the, the plane drops us off on this flooded runway where, like, it was a crazy landing. We hop out of the plane. I'm glad to be alive. Um, and then these four guys with guns come out of this little cabin, uh, and were like, "We're gu- this is actually a, a landing strip that our, you know, Colombian boss owns, and we're guarding it for him, and what are you two white dudes doing here?" So, like, all the, uh, cocaine traffic comes through this part of the Amazon.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
And we had just done what people actually have been killed for, which is, you know, like, if, if a couple of white guys drop in there, they assume you're, like, DEA or something.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So they are super suspicious. And I di- you know, they were speaking Spanish, so I was, like, catching every fourth word or something, and I'm like, "This can't be good," 'cause of the guns. But, but anyway, the guy I was with, the German guy, he negotiated with them, and finally they're like, "Okay, just give us a landing fee." [laughs] So we're like, "Sure." [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
[sighs]
- RJRowan Jacobsen
But yeah, so that was, but that was the beginning of my chocolate journey. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
What, so what part of the Amazon were you? Where you, and you-
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Um, Bolivia, uh, which, you know, you, Bolivia, you think of, like, mountains, La Paz, but they have these lowlands which are, like, straight up, like, rain- like tropical rainforest. It's called The Beni, and it's, like, truly lawless area, like huge swaths of jungle, bunch of cattle ranching as well, and all the drug traffic comes through there from the Andes, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
And you went in there as, just as a journalist?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, so this guy, this German guy, he'd, he'd been living there for 20 years, and he was trying to get this, uh, cacao, and he's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna go meet with these groups. Do you wanna come?" And Outside had just come to me, and they're, they liked something else I'd written. And they're like, "Hey, we're Outside Magazine, what's the, like, freakiest thing you, you ever wanted to do? We'll, you know, we'll send you there." And I had, like, a little kid at the time, so I was like, "You know, I'm not gonna be going off a 200-foot waterfall in a kayak for you guys." But then this, this, like, you know, heart of dark chocolate, uh, thing came up, [laughs] and I was like, "I could do that for... I could be, like, the comic g- guy for them." So it was this, like, ridiculous journey where, like, everything went wrong. Um, but we did get some really good, good chocolate at the end of it eventually.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what is the benefit of wild cacao?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Um, it tastes really, really good. Like, better than the industrial varieties of ca- cacao that most chocolate's made with, and it's just, like, kind of a cool story. And it can be used to support those indigenous groups so that the forest doesn't get cut down and turned into more, like, cattle ranch. 'Cause, um, cacao grows in the understory of the rainforest, so it's kind of a way to monetize the, the full rainforest.
- JRJoe Rogan
And keep the canopy intact.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Exactly, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, what is the benefits of cacao, like, health-wise?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
It's right there with, with coffee. Um, you know, tons of polyphenols, little bit of caffeine. Uh, it seems to, you know, be anti-inflammatory, gives you a little boost, makes you happy for the k- some of the same reasons and maybe some different ones as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
And when you say it tastes better, like, in what way? Like, when you try it.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Um, m- a lot more, like, aromatics a- and less bitterness. Like, basically, what happened with cacao is, um, when it became a global product, the Europeans, uh, selected varieties that were high-yielding. Same thing that happened with tomatoes and everything else. They were high-yielding-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm
- RJRowan Jacobsen
... but they lost some of, like, the great, uh, aromatic qualities that, like, the old Maya cacao had had, and that's what gets grown all over the world. Most cacao comes from Africa now, and it's, it's more bitter, less interesting, but way cheaper. So then there's this movement that started, like, 10, 15 years ago of people trying to go back to Latin America to find the, like, ancient heirloom varieties that had this great flavor and make, like, better chocolate than had ever been made before. And sort of the most ancient is the stuff in the Amazon, which is where cacao originated, still growing wild. So it's, it's, you know, it's kinda cool if you can go back to the, you know, primordial days and make chocolate.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I mean, the example of tomatoes is a perfect example 'cause heirloom tomatoes are sensational. They're so delicious.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
So much better.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're so much better. And then you have one of those bullshit McDonald's tomatoes that looks like a piece of paper.
- RJRowan Jacobsen
Yeah, it's like cardboard.
- JRJoe Rogan
That, is that cacao, that's what it looks like?
- RJRowan Jacobsen
That is, yeah. So it's these pods, and you open up the pod. It's kinda like the size of, like, a little Nerf football or something. Um-
Episode duration: 2:00:46
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Transcript of episode J-CQjxKFb_0
