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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #2517 - Taylor Sheridan

Taylor Sheridan is a writer, director, and producer of multiple series and films, including “Landman,” “Lioness,” “The Madison,” “Sicario,” and “Hell or High Water.” He is also a restaurateur, rancher, and author. His new book, “How Not to Die in Prison: A Survival Guide,” co-written with ex-convict turned personal trainer Tom Nelson, will be available June 23. https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/How-to-Not-Die-in-Prison/Taylor-Sheridan/9781668213452 https://www.cattlemenssteakhouse.com https://www.6666beef.com https://www.bosqueranchheadquarters.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Visit https://wildpastures.com/rogan for 20% Off + Free Shipping Switch today at https://Visible.com for just 25/mo. Or Save $10 on your first month of Visible+ Pro with code ROGAN.

Joe RoganhostTaylor Sheridanguest
Jun 23, 20262h 43mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:02

    Intro

    1. JR

      [upbeat music]

  2. 0:02 – 2:24

    Horse culture, prize buckles, and “ghost-seeing” bloodlines

    1. JR

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music] What's happening?

    2. TS

      What's up, buddy?

    3. JR

      That's a hell of a fucking belt buckle.

    4. TS

      Thank you.

    5. JR

      What is that? What is that? What's going on there?

    6. TS

      So this one is, uh, for a horse I have called Maverick Buzz the Tower that won reserve at the Futurity. Uh-

    7. JR

      And they give you a belt buckle if you win?

    8. TS

      A belt buckle and money.

    9. JR

      That's a dope belt buckle.

    10. TS

      Expensive belt buckle.

    11. JR

      So guys like you that understand horses, like if you saw someone with one of those, you would know exactly what that is right away.

    12. TS

      Oh, yeah.

    13. JR

      That-

    14. TS

      And the year. Depending on the year, I'm, I'm gonna know the horse.

    15. JR

      [laughs] Wow.

    16. TS

      Like you would fighters. It's like you would fighters.

    17. JR

      [laughs] I guess. I guess it's probably similar.

    18. TS

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      Yeah. But that-

    20. TS

      Be like, "Oh, that guy won the thing in 2012. He fought so-and-so." And that's the same with me and horses.

    21. JR

      It's always so interesting to me how these ... there's these different sort of categories of interests that people have that, y- you know, one person might not know anyth- I don't know anything about horses, but you're like fucking balls deep. You know [laughs] fuck everything about hor- it's crazy.

    22. TS

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      It's such a, an interesting, like, pool of knowledge, the, the people that are really into horses.

    24. TS

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      And then when they start explaining, you go, "Oh, this is not as simple as, oh, that's a horse, and that's a horse, too." Like, there's genetic lines, and there's certain tendencies that certain horses will actually pass on to their offspring.

    26. TS

      Oh, yeah. Oh.

    27. JR

      That's crazy stuff.

    28. TS

      There's a, there's a stallion, and I really like him. I've got a number of horses by this stallion. His, his name's Spooks Gotta Whiz, and, and they're just incredibly balanced, real feely, very, very quick-footed, big stoppers. But they, they see dead people. They see ghosts. So like-

    29. JR

      What?

    30. TS

      ... once every f- three months for no reason, this thing's gonna fucking check out, and I mean check out. [laughs] Just decide, "It's not safe here. We're going back to the barn. You can come with me, or I'm gonna buck your ass off, or I'm gonna flip over." No, he just loses his mind.

  3. 2:24 – 3:44

    Deaf horses, vibration sensitivity, and focus under pressure

    1. TS

      It, he ... I don't know what he sees. Some kind of boogeyman. They're ... A lot of them are deaf. So-

    2. JR

      Really?

    3. TS

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      Why?

    5. TS

      So ... Well, there's a, [sighs] there's a, a gene. Typically, if you see a horse with a white face and the white goes above the eyes, typically that horse is deaf.

    6. JR

      Wow.

    7. TS

      And so they can't hear, but they can feel the vibrations. So like that [stomps foot] ... That could, that could set one of those horses off.

    8. JR

      Just anything pounding on the ground, that might be something chasing it.

    9. TS

      Yeah. I mean, they're prey animals.

    10. JR

      Right, right, right.

    11. TS

      At the end of the day. So.

    12. JR

      Wow. The deaf thing's crazy.

    13. TS

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      I wonder if that has any sort of an advantage, where they could sort of tune out distractions. You know, I would imagine if a horse is at a rodeo-

    15. TS

      As ... Now, yes, 100%, because, you know, the crowds are screaming and yelling. It's not gonna bother them. Now, if they start stomping their feet ... I was gonna show this one horse of mine, and I'm about to run in the pen, and all these guys are cheering for this Italian rider, and they're all beating on the side of the arena.

    16. JR

      Oh.

    17. TS

      And, and my horse checked the fuck out.

    18. JR

      [laughs]

    19. TS

      [laughs] He checked the fuck out.

    20. JR

      He thought, like, a whole herd of elephants was chasing him.

    21. TS

      Oh, yeah. [laughs]

    22. JR

      Wow. I can imagine how weird that is for the horse.

    23. TS

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      Like, it's being told to do something, but its instincts are like, "No."

    25. TS

      Yeah.

    26. JR

      "We gotta get the fuck outta here."

    27. TS

      "Get that work on."

    28. JR

      "I can't hear anything."

    29. TS

      [laughs]

    30. JR

      That's nuts.

  4. 3:44 – 7:22

    Elite performance and “useful” neurodivergence (ADHD/autism)

    1. JR

      The hearing thing ... There's a, a f- a famous pool player. His name is Shane Van Boening. He's, like, one of the greatest pool players of all time, if not the greatest, and he's deaf. And he has hearing aids, and when he plays, he shuts them off. He just goes click, and goes into this world-

    2. TS

      The zone

    3. JR

      ... just of balls and geometry, and just doesn't miss. Just, he's a horrifying person to play.

    4. TS

      Really?

    5. JR

      And because of the fact that he's got that extra sense shut off, like the hearing, he can shut it off. It's not just that. I mean, he's also obsessive. He p- practices 10 hours a day. I mean, he's a all-time wizard. Like, he's won the US Open, which is the hardest tournament to win in all of pool. He's won it five times.

    6. TS

      The funny-

    7. JR

      Which is just nuts. There's only one other guy in, in history, Earl Strickland, that's won it five times.

    8. TS

      Everybody plays pool, like everybody, a little.

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. TS

      But then the levels to the game, like you start getting a professional pool player-

    11. JR

      Yeah

    12. TS

      ... and they're playing a totally different game.

    13. JR

      It's a totally different ... At, just watching it, you realize, like, "Oh my God, what am I doing? I'm hitting the ball way too hard. I don't know what I'm doing."

    14. TS

      [laughs]

    15. JR

      "My angles are all fucked up. Like, this guy's playing that with English. I would've just hit it straight." You watch, you watch-

    16. TS

      And they're doing a spin, a backspin.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. TS

      It hits over here in the hole.

    19. JR

      Oh, yeah.

    20. TS

      It's just-

    21. JR

      It's the control of the ball. It's just ... Like, they're a part of the ... The stick is a part of their body. The stick and the ball, they're all connected in space and time, and they know where that ball's going within millimeters.

    22. TS

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      It's, it's nuts to watch. Like some of these guys, they'll, they'll hit a ball, and it'll tra- it's a nine-foot table. It'll travel all the fuck away around the table, so like a 12-foot distance, and it'll go in a two-inch spot.

    24. TS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    25. JR

      And you just go, "Fuck me."

    26. TS

      [laughs]

    27. JR

      It's cra- and then if you could do that at, and you're deaf, too, like you don't even hear the cheers. You're just still in the zone.

    28. TS

      Just hyperfocused.

    29. JR

      Yeah, just hyperfocused. Autism probably helps, too.

    30. TS

      Yeah.

  5. 7:22 – 8:59

    Public schooling as compliance training and the politics of early “programming”

    1. JR

      The superpower is you can find something you love and focus on it, but the way our education system is designed is so ass-backwards. You take kids that are so energetic, and they have so much life, and you just squeeze it out of them. Just sit still, stay put, listen to boring shit, and all day they're just fighting this desire to scream and just run out of the building and go do something fun.

    2. TS

      Wasn't the, um, like essentially what we call the modern public education system founded by, or really by the Rockefellers-

    3. JR

      Yep

    4. TS

      ... as a, as a means to create workers?

    5. JR

      Yep. Yep.

    6. TS

      Like that's it. You're just-

    7. JR

      Uh, compliant workers-

    8. TS

      Just-

    9. JR

      ... and soldiers

    10. TS

      ... conform. Just conform.

    11. JR

      It's one of the reasons why they decided to start school so early for kids is the earlier you can start them, the more you can get them to do whatever you want them to do.

    12. TS

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      And the more you can get them to pledge allegiance and get really excited about this, that, or the other thing. Including all the trans stuff that you see in school, all the pride stuff, and teachers are working with preschool kids, and they're talking about sexuality and ge- And you're like, "They're fucking six."

    14. TS

      [laughs]

    15. JR

      Like, they don't know what you're talking... Like, why are you even talking to them about that? Because you can get them early-

    16. TS

      Yeah

    17. JR

      ... and you can program those thoughts into their mind that this is a good cause. And it could be anything. It could be your religion, it could be your political ideology, it could be being a Christian, being a Muslim, whatever. If you get kids young enough, you can talk them into doing almost anything.

    18. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      That's why they have child suicide bombers. They don't try to get guys in their 40s with a family-

    20. TS

      Yeah

    21. JR

      ... to strap a vest on. They try to get kids.

  6. 8:59 – 12:49

    Foreign influence, NGOs/nonprofits, and incentives that reward failure

    1. TS

      Yeah. Yeah. And you know, what, what'll really bake a couple of noodles is if you look at... Because all these things are funded, all these nonprofits and NGOs, they're all f- but where does the money come from? And when you look at where the money comes from, and you realize, oh, wait a minute, and it's been coming for 40, 50 years from these places. Qatar, for example, obviously Russia, China, all these, our enemies.

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. TS

      Donating money to all of these various groups to divide, to just eat away from the inside.

    4. JR

      Russia's been doing it since the '70s.

    5. TS

      Yeah. '60s.

    6. JR

      '60s. Yeah.

    7. TS

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      That, uh, Yuri Bezmenov, I'm sure you've seen that video.

    9. TS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    10. JR

      Anybody who hasn't, please watch it. It's Yuri Bezmenov, and it's in 1984, and this guy is essentially describing what America is going to look like eventually, and he's dead on. Just dead on.

    11. TS

      Yep.

    12. JR

      Dead on with the communism, the Marxism, the stuff in the universities, just completely poison their mind, push out any ideas of patriotism being a virtue, all the hate for America that you have.

    13. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JR

      Like, all the division, all of it engineered.

    15. TS

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      And it's wild.

    17. TS

      Just look at who it benefits.

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. TS

      That's it. That's it. It's real simple.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. TS

      Just look and see who it benefits.

    22. JR

      Well, it benefits a lot of people in this country as well, unfortunately. There's a lot of people that really love division, and they can profit off of it, and they can work, work an angle. You know, we're with you. And this is a big part of the problem with the whole idea of nonprofits, 'cause nonprofits, in theory, are awesome. It's a great thing that people are willing to donate their money. Like wealthy people who are doing well say, "You know what? I w- I think my money could be best suited helping out other people." It's beautiful. It's one of the most amazing notions about people, when they can be charitable when they don't have to be. They do it 'cause they want to, and they really wanna help. But then you find out what's really going on, and that the majority of the money is going to overhead and in employees.

    23. TS

      Well, think about this. If, if I create a nonprofit to go solve... Well, L- LA's a perfect example. We can look at the homeless situation-

    24. JR

      Yes

    25. TS

      ... that they have there, and all of these NGOs that are getting all of this money. And the problem's getting worse. It's not getting better.

    26. JR

      Right.

    27. TS

      It's getting worse. But if I form an NGO, and that's my cause, and I solve the problem, well then what do I, what do I do with my NGO?

    28. JR

      Exactly.

    29. TS

      Now I got no money. Now there's no reason to give me money. So they're, they don't create them to solve problems.

    30. JR

      The incentives are totally fucked.

  7. 12:49 – 17:55

    Policy-by-vibe: banning hunting/fishing/ranching and the blind spots of activism

    1. JR

      It's, uh, it is a ... It's, like, it is as goofy as it gets, and then you think it's as goofy as it gets, and then you hear that Portland just ... The, okay, so this is gonna be on the ballot in November. It got enough votes to be on the ballot. And this is some law that's under the guise of stop animal cruelty. Well, who doesn't wanna stop animal, animal cruelty? I certainly wanna stop animal cruelty. Let's stop animal cruelty. So what does it mean? It means no hunting, no fishing, no ranching, no agriculture, no animals that get harmed in any way, no killing chickens for Kentucky Fried Chicken. Nothing. No animals die. And it's-

    2. TS

      And this is a city ordinance?

    3. JR

      ... they're fucking vo- Oregon is voting on this in November. [laughs] No fishing. No fishing. What are you saying? Are you fucking high?

    4. TS

      And, and no ... So-

    5. JR

      No hunting, no ranching. Ranching, you can't ranch. You're gonna kill a cow? What are you, crazy? That's illegal in Oregon.

    6. TS

      And here's-

    7. JR

      [laughs]

    8. TS

      That probably sounds like a good idea to one of those people.

    9. JR

      [laughs]

    10. TS

      And then, but here's my question. All right, so let's do it. Let's just say ... Let's just outlaw ranching. Let's just say fuck it. Well, there's 91 million cattle in the country, so what will we do with them? What do you do?

    11. JR

      You just leave them alone and let nature take its course.

    12. TS

      Yeah, but the, but there's, but they're not ... But there's no na- there's no nature to take its course.

    13. JR

      It's, this is not-

    14. TS

      There's 91 million head of fucking cattle, and I can promise you this, if you outlaw me feeding them and taking care of them, I'm [laughs] not gonna f- then they're, then they're wandering the highway.

    15. JR

      Yeah. And then the bulls are out.

    16. TS

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      So you're gonna keep the bulls contained? No.

    18. TS

      No.

    19. JR

      So you're gonna ... The bulls are gonna kill people.

    20. TS

      Yeah. Or, and, and make more cattle, and then we-

    21. JR

      Yeah, and make more cattle.

    22. TS

      Yeah, so now we have 900 million cattle in three decades.

    23. JR

      Yeah, and fuck all your fences. Bulls are gonna smash them.

    24. TS

      [laughs]

    25. JR

      Bulls are gonna eat your grass. Well, bulls are gonna, bulls are gonna stomp your dog. Like, what are you talking about? [laughs]

    26. TS

      It's ... I can't. And the, the-

    27. JR

      But it's not supposed to be logical. It's all just a vibe, man. It's like-

    28. TS

      Yeah

    29. JR

      ... and it's not even a well-thought-out one. But the problem is you don't have to be well thought out to get on the ballot. You just have to appeal to certain sensibilities, and then all of a sudden people are like, "Oh, that would be good."

    30. TS

      Yeah.

  8. 17:55 – 23:35

    Food myths: almonds, “almond juice,” oxalates, and nutrition whiplash

    1. TS

      Yeah. A- almonds, you know what's fascinating, and I'm gonna ... We can look it up. Almonds, the amount ... It's something like 19 gallons of water is what you have to give to get one almond.

    2. JR

      Is that real?

    3. TS

      Yeah. Yeah, we can, we can-

    4. JR

      [laughs]

    5. TS

      Yeah, it's fucking bananas.

    6. JR

      [gasps] Oh, my doctor-

    7. TS

      Yeah

    8. JR

      ... told me almonds aren't even good for you.

    9. TS

      Well, you know, it's-

    10. JR

      He said they're okay for you, he said, but, you know, there's-

    11. TS

      There was a time in the Mediterranean where they were, they were poison. They have strychnine in them, and it's one of the first domesticated plants. And what people realized, whoever, Homo sapiens or Neanderthals or whoever's wandering around, they're like, "The squirrels are eating those poisonous nuts from that tree. Huh. They're okay from this one, not okay from that one."

    12. JR

      Ah.

    13. TS

      So they started cutting down and uprooting all the ones where the squirrels wouldn't eat.

    14. JR

      Oh, interesting.

    15. TS

      Yeah. And so that's, and so the almond originally-

    16. JR

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    17. TS

      Yeah, look at that.

    18. JR

      Relatively water-intensive crop. Each nut-

    19. TS

      1,900 gallons of water per pound

    20. JR

      [laughs] That's so crazy.

    21. TS

      And then-

    22. JR

      Oh my God

    23. TS

      ... here's, here's my new, like, look, I'm a writer, right? So words matter to me, and when we, when we misuse them in our society, it just bothers me, right? So all these things that we're calling milk.

    24. JR

      Right.

    25. TS

      Like almond, almond milk.

    26. JR

      Right.

    27. TS

      And I'm, and I'm just determined to call it almond juice 'cause that's what it fucking is. It's not even almond juice. It's not like we're extracting-

    28. JR

      It's almond tea almost.

    29. TS

      We're, we're taking almonds, pulverizing them, and brining them in water-

    30. JR

      Yeah

  9. 23:35 – 29:40

    Ranch economics, small processors, and why Yellowstone romanticized hard work

    1. TS

      It's like, how do we get people to eat our shit in the morning and then again at lunch, and then ... Well, the one thing that we can't control, and they talk about the, the one thing that we do not have is this massive industrialized meat production, because there's no, there's no economical way to do it. They'd do it if they could. Harris Ranch, which you, you've probably seen off I-5 in, uh, in California, is the closest version of that. But what it is is a feed yard, right? Where you get them together and you feed cattle for 90 to 150 days before you go send them off and slaughter them, right? That's the closest thing there is to an industrialized beef industry because It's an, a very inefficient way. It's way better to farm, right? It's more efficient to farm than it is graze cattle. So you only wanna graze cattle somewhere that you can't farm-

    2. JR

      Mm

    3. TS

      ... at the end of the day. You wanna graze cattle are great at taking protein from poor protein sources and metabolizing it, right? So you graze them in real rocky terrain with native grasses that, that you can't farm, can't till it, just can't. Um, and it needs to be eaten by something or weeds will overtake it, right?

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. TS

      'Cause grass is, grass grows better when it's being grazed. Um, and so there's no way to industrialize that or centralize it. The most centralized it is is at the packing house, right, where you've got four packing, major packing houses, um, that control 90-something percent of the beef industry, and that's starting to change. COVID was extremely helpful for the smaller farmer and rancher to sit there and get their product out, right? And find small... They start popping up. People have opened these USDA facilities that, that don't process 800 head of cattle an hour. They maybe do 50 or 50 a day. And now people can go there, 'cause they're a USDA facility, they can buy beef directly from them, buy it from the rancher, right? And you can control where your food's coming from. As opposed to what, what was happening, um, where you'd get a bunch of, if you're gonna go get a burger, [laughs] you're, you're eating some Australian Killer Bull, right-

    6. JR

      Right

    7. TS

      ... for the most part, or some- something from Brazil. And they, or you're not eating something that you wanna eat, right? Um, when you go to a nice steakhouse, the, the steaks there are, they're gonna come from most likely Texas, uh, Iowa, Nebraska, Montana. There's a, there's select areas where people are spending that kind of attention and time to raise that kind of quality of beef, right? Um, and it's being done by smaller ranchers. It may be a big ranch, but it's still operated by relatively few people. You know, 6666 is 300,000 acres, but there's 12 cowboys-

    8. JR

      Wow

    9. TS

      ... for the whole thing.

    10. JR

      12 cowboys for 300,000 acres is nuts.

    11. TS

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      How do they keep track of everything?

    13. TS

      I mean, we break it down into pastures, and then you have, uh, and then the pastures fall under... The terminology is this. Let's say, oh, if you're in Guthrie, there's a, there's a camp, and we, we call it South Camp, um, 'cause it's in the south, and it's responsible for 50,000 acres, right? Which is broken down into multiple pastures that are, are between 7 and 10,000 acres. There's one big pasture in that, in that camp that's, like, 14,000 acres. Um, and so then you have North Camp. You have a, what we call, then we have camps around the town, the little town of Guthrie. So you break it down into the responsibility of each cowboy's around somewhere between 35 and 50,000 acres.

    14. JR

      [sighs] Wow. That's a hell of a responsibility.

    15. TS

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      That's a lot of work, man.

    17. TS

      A lot of work. [laughs]

    18. JR

      What's i- you know what's really interesting about your shows, particularly Yellowstone, it got people, like, really attracted to the idea of brutal hard work as being romantic.

    19. TS

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      You know, people, like, really identified with those guys on Yellowstone that were just, like, so dedicated to that ranch, so dedicated to busting their ass and working all day lo- hard fucking work-

    21. TS

      Yeah

    22. JR

      ... and then just hanging out together afterwards. And there's something about that life that's so simplistic and romantic to people that it just really resonated with so many people. They didn't even know that they liked that.

    23. TS

      Well, it's, it's uniquely American, right?

    24. JR

      Mm.

    25. TS

      And, and the amount of freedom that is... So we move somebody out to South Camp, and we go, "Okay, so here you are. There's your house at South Camp. See you in a week or so." [laughs]

    26. JR

      [laughs]

    27. TS

      "Go figure shit out." [laughs]

    28. JR

      [laughs]

    29. TS

      "Keep track of the cattle." And you, you give them a string of horses, and they work their horses, and they, and they ride that property. They know every inch of it, and you don't ever, you don't, we don't, we don't have weekly corporate meetings.

    30. JR

      How do they get supplies? Is it, is, like, the house stocked in advance?

  10. 29:40 – 33:29

    How Sheridan runs multiple hit shows: crew loyalty and ruthless efficiency

    1. JR

      Dude, how the fuck do you pay attention to everything? You're running a gigantic ranch, and you have about 48 TV shows.

    2. TS

      [laughs]

    3. JR

      How the fuck do you do it? I don't understand it. I, every time a new Taylor Sheridan show pops up, I say to my wife, I go, "How the fuck is he doing this? Like, where does he have this time?"

    4. TS

      Part of it is, if you think about it, so my crew, my core crew, is the same crew I made Wind River with, like, when we had no money. I remember one time I'm on the top of a mountain with me and my first AD and my DP, uh, Ben Richardson, and there's not a producer. We haven't seen anybody in a week, and I looked at, we're freezing our asses off. It's seven below zero in northern Utah, and I'm like, "Guys, you know, we could just fuck off to Hawaii and nobody would know for a while." [laughs] Like-

    5. JR

      [laughs]

    6. TS

      We have w- we have their m- we have their money, and they don't know. They don't actually know where we are. They're just trusting that we're gonna make this movie, which we did. Um, and it was incredibly difficult, but that's the same team that went over and did Yellowstone, which is then the same team that went up and did Mayor of Kingstown with me, and then 1883, '23, Lioness, Landman, all of them. And we've promoted from within. I've got PAs that are now first ADs. I've got, uh, camera operators that are now directors. Um, so we've promoted from within so everyone understands the way we do it, and it's so friggin' efficient. We don't ever have... And you know, 'cause you've been in this industry forever, these people will have meetings upon meeting upon meeting. They'll have a, th- they'll have a tone meeting where a whole bunch of people are gonna sit around and try and talk about the tone of the script.

    7. JR

      [laughs]

    8. TS

      Why didn't you read the fucking thing? You sh- We have to have a meeting about it? How about we don't have a meeting about it? And then they'll have a, they'll have a... And this is also networks. They love this shit, so that they can have a reason for their existence, right?

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. TS

      All these middle management people. And they wanna do a prop show and tell where someone's gonna come show them all the props that we're gonna use.

    11. JR

      Really?

    12. TS

      Well, we don't do that shit, 'cause I'm like, "I need your permission to use which, which Bic lighter I'm gonna use in this fucking scene?"

    13. JR

      [laughs]

    14. TS

      How about I just make the decision? And how about we use the same Bic lighter in all these fucking shows and I don't ever have to pick a Bic lighter again. How about that? So we just streamlined it and made it to where it's so efficient. Typically, a TV show will start up and they'll prep for 12 weeks before they start filming. We, we do it in four.

    15. JR

      Wow. Well, that makes sense. It makes sense that it's streamlined, 'cause I've been on shows when they first start out and it's chaos, and there's a lot of network involvement, and there's a lot of bullshit. But then once it gets going they go, "Oh, you guys know what you're doing."

    16. TS

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      "Leave me alone."

    18. TS

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. TS

      We're there from the beginning now.

    21. JR

      That's beautiful.

    22. TS

      We haven't missed. If you don't miss.

    23. JR

      Right. Well, it's like you don't miss. Like, you don't miss with the writing, you don't miss with the storylines. Like, you don't have any duds, man, which is incri- this is incredible. It's an incredible accomplishment to d- have that many fucking shows and all of them be good, and all of them be, you know, like, very addictive. You know, Landman is so addictive. [laughs]

    24. TS

      It's, it's that show, it's about something very serious and then I can just throw shit at it.

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. TS

      Let's just take a bunch of old people to a strip club.

    27. JR

      Billy Bob is fucking awesome.

    28. TS

      He's a genius.

    29. JR

      I love that guy.

    30. TS

      Yeah.

  11. 33:29 – 45:17

    Oil dependence, secret weapons, UAP skepticism, and the future of war

    1. JR

      Well, it's, it's educational, too. I mean, a lot of people, like, have no idea how the oil business works, and you, you watch that show, you're like, "Oh, Jesus Christ. What a crazy job."

    2. TS

      It's an insane job. And, and, and the other thing about it is we're so completely dependent upon petroleum in every single aspect of our lives, so completely dependent upon it. And we can debate how bad it is or isn't and, and, and, or not debate it. The reality is we don't have an alternative. Like, it does not exist. It simply doesn't exist. And we could sit there and say, "Well, wind and this." No. You sit down with any climatologist and any engineer, they're gonna tell you our best hope for a replacement of petroleum fuels is cold fusion, and we're 30, 40 years from it being something that we can rely upon.

    3. JR

      Mm.

    4. TS

      And reduced little nuclear reactors, like itty bitties.

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. TS

      Like the size of this coffee pot.

    7. JR

      That's what they're talking about. They're talking about, like, individual reactors that people have in their homes. I'm like, how long does it take before there's disasters? [laughs] Like, that sounds fucking...

    8. TS

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      Having a really good nuclear power plant for a city is an awesome idea. Having everyone have their own nuclear power plant sounds fucking crazy.

    10. TS

      You know-

    11. JR

      How many assholes are gonna cut into that thing?

    12. TS

      Well, people still put fucking metal in microwaves, so-

    13. JR

      Right

    14. TS

      ... I don't think we should be giving-

    15. JR

      On purpose. [laughs]

    16. TS

      Yeah. I've done it. I'm like, "Well, how bad can it really be?"

    17. JR

      There's people that-

    18. TS

      Yeah

    19. JR

      ... leave their fucking gas on-

    20. TS

      Yeah

    21. JR

      ... so that someone can die in the house.

    22. TS

      No, we, we, we don't need-

    23. JR

      People are nuts.

    24. TS

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      People are nuts. You, if you literally have consumer level nuclear power plants, not with these monkeys. Not with, not with the human beings that we are today.

    26. TS

      No.

    27. JR

      Our, our current form.

    28. TS

      No.

    29. JR

      We're not enlightened enough to have-

    30. TS

      No. [laughs]

  12. 45:17 – 1:16:46

    COVID trust collapse, Fauci, media incentives, and political slippery slopes

    1. TS

      It's unique. I think that, number one, I think in 30 years when they look back, like we are still suffering s- from a society, uh, from COVID, like still. And, and not so much from the disease itself, but from our faith in the institutions around us, whether it's government, whether it's the media, whether it's pharmaceutical companies. Um, and the, the way that it was manipulated to gain power for a political group, and it was effective, and so when something's effective, then people just keep doing the same thing-

    2. JR

      Right

    3. TS

      ... until it's no longer effective, right? Um, we did that in our military with the wins hearts and minds, right? So that was all, that all comes from Japan, right? We're gonna win the hearts and minds of Japanese. Well, the Japanese surrendered. Like, their emperor, who they looked at as a god, he told the people of Japan after we dropped two fricking nuclear bombs on them, "Hey, we are gonna endure the unendurable. We are going to surrender. It's the only way that we can salvage our nation." So they willfully surrendered. And then our government goes, "Look how great this hearts and minds stuff's working." It's not working. It's not working at all. And then they tried it in Vietnam. Didn't work. Tried it everywhere else that we've had a conflict, we've tried it, and it hasn't worked yet because what it was based on was flawed, right? Because they, they chose to be subjugated at that time and, and making that choice kept them an independent nation. So our, our, our government, our ... And it, it's so dangerous what we're seeing. Um, you can like Trump or not like Trump. It doesn't ... Uh, people are gonna like presidents and dislike presidents, but now it defying the rule of law because he happens to be the head of the federal government and openly defying the federal government. The repercussions of that are gonna be, "Okay, fine, you, you can't stand this man. You think he's a terrible president, and you're not gonna follow his laws," but that's the new normal now. So when a president gets in that you do support, then the other side, because we've established this precedent, they're just not gonna follow his laws either.

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. TS

      And now we've eroded the rule of law. And-

    6. JR

      Yeah

    7. TS

      ... and then, then what happens?

    8. JR

      The slippery slope is very dangerous. It's ... I mean, I was saying that when the ICE raids were going on 'cause I was like, "Okay, I am not in favor of illegal criminals being in this country. However, we're setting a very alarming precedent where you have masked, militarized police with no ID that are running around the cities snatching people up." Like, this, this could set a precedent that could be used by the left if they get into power for something different than this being, than just for ICE. We've already accepted the idea of militarized police on our streets, and that people with seven weeks training, you're just sending them out to snatch up people, and a lot of American citizens are getting caught up in that trap, too, uh, uh, unfortunately, and then they have to get released. Like, that, that could be bad if If the next party gets in. So if the Democrats get in next and they decide, like maybe there's a new vac- a, a new COVID strain happens, some new pandemic happens, whatever the fuck it is-

    9. TS

      And if you don't get the vaccine, they're gonna arrest you, and then they start the same-

    10. JR

      Yes. We saw it in, I think it was Minnesota, or whoever they had the National Guard on the streets, but the, they had people enforcing lockdowns. And so they had-

    11. TS

      Yeah

    12. JR

      ... people walking on the streets with fucking guns, yelling at people to get in your house-

    13. TS

      Yeah

    14. JR

      ... over a cold. Like this, these kind of slippery slopes, you might think, "No, we're just trying to get rid of the bad immigrants." I get it. I'm with you. I agree. However, the way they're doing it, doing it... And I don't, n- I'm not even saying there's another way or a better way. I'm just saying that you wanna get them out all at once, yeah, that's the way to do it. You wanna get them out quick, that's the way to do it because they got them in quick. You're right. They opened the fucking border. They helped people get in. But now that they're in, the, if you're gonna get them out that way, you're setting a weird precedent. You're setting a precedent that could be used in other ways.

    15. TS

      Yeah, that's... The, the, the challenge is, okay, we're gonna, we need to enforce the law, right?

    16. JR

      Right.

    17. TS

      Or don't have them, right? They're, they've, they've enacted no new laws. These are the same immigration laws that were on the books when Obama was president and-

    18. JR

      Right

    19. TS

      ... Clinton was president. The same-

    20. JR

      Right

    21. TS

      ... the same rules. It's the, it's the methodology. And, and, uh, you, you gotta [laughs] you gotta sit there and weigh the pros and cons about, okay, the pros of trying to eradicate this issue. You can't give it a deadline.

    22. JR

      Yeah.

    23. TS

      Right? Um, it's slippery.

    24. JR

      It is slippery.

    25. TS

      And, and, and again, it's what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And, and, and these politicians right now who are doing all of us a tremendous disservice in Washington, I feel, our elected officials, um, because they're n- n- they're not thinking beyond this next election.

    26. JR

      Right.

    27. TS

      And maybe they never have.

    28. JR

      They never have.

    29. TS

      Right? But they were better at hiding it, maybe. Um-

    30. JR

      I think there was no internet.

  13. 1:16:46 – 1:32:22

    Back pain, regenerative treatments, opioid catastrophe, and ibogaine as an exit ramp

    1. TS

      "We're gonna clean you out." Um, and, and some aren't gonna want that. They're gonna wanna go back on the street and do drugs. Uh, and, and the addiction and the consequences of drugs that are that... I had surgery. They had put me on fentanyl. I had neck surgery, and they put me on fentanyl. There's high, then there's that shit, and that was done by an anesthesiologist. I wasn't self-medicating in a fucking parking lot, right?

    2. JR

      What'd you have done to your neck?

    3. TS

      Uh, C6-C7. Blew out the-

    4. JR

      Fusion?

    5. TS

      No, no, no, no, no. The, I had the-

    6. JR

      Disectomy?

    7. TS

      The disc, yeah.

    8. JR

      Just cut some of it down?

    9. TS

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      It's okay now?

    11. TS

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      How long ago did you get that done?

    13. TS

      Was it maybe three years ago?

    14. JR

      Yeah. I wish I told you.

    15. TS

      Two years, yeah, three years ago.

    16. JR

      If that ever happens again, don't do that.

    17. TS

      Don't?

    18. JR

      No.

    19. TS

      Well, it'll happen again.

    20. JR

      It is. Yeah, I'm sure it will. Um, there's other ways.

    21. TS

      All right.

    22. JR

      There's way... Yeah. There's PRP can help it.

    23. TS

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      Regenenokine helped mine. I had a pretty bad bulging disc in my neck.

    25. TS

      What's Regenenokine?

    26. JR

      Stem... Regenenokine is, um, they used to have to go to Germany to do it. Uh, I know Peyton Manning went there. Kobe Bryant went there, and Dana White actually flew to Germany to get it done. Um, it is, uh, it's like an advanced form of platelet-rich plasma where they take your blood. They, uh, there's a process to it. Pull it up, Jamie, 'cause I can't remember what the process is. But they spin it in a centrifuge for like 10 hours, and then you come back the next day, and they inject it, and it makes this very potent anti-inflammatory, and they inject it around wherever the injury is to the disc. And, uh, it provides, like within weeks, amazing relief, and for me, it completely cured it.

    27. TS

      Wow.

    28. JR

      I, I, I had a point where my fingers were going numb.

    29. TS

      Yeah, that's what-

    30. JR

      Uh, the German, um, uh... Go back up. Back to where... Yeah. So German physician, Dr. Peter Welling, uh, the treatment focused on blocking a specific inflammatory protein, interleukin-1. So they take the blood out. Um, they draw your blood, and then the blood is heated to body temperature to trigger the production of a natural anti-inflammatory protein called IL-1RA, and then they spin it in a centrifuge, uh, separating out the protein-rich serum. The serum is then injected directly into the painful joint or tissue. Dude, it was remarkable for me for, uh, knee injuries. I did it a bunch of times. I used to do it at l- they, they moved it... You, you used to have to go to Germany and then Santa Monica. They opened up an office. Uh, it's Lifestyle Medicine. That's what it's called, right? Um, and then, um, that's where I had it done. And you-- It's incredible. Like it, I had it done my entire back. Like there's a picture of me on the, on Instagram with a bunch of these fucking tubes in my... That's me right there.

  14. 1:32:22 – 2:08:07

    Human yearning for the wild: Alaska homesteaders, ancient history, and pioneer realism

    1. JR

      No, how about a fucking, just a sleeping bag and the stars? How about that? Just lying there with your horse tied to a tree. Isn't that really what everybody wants? Isn't it, doesn't really everyone want to cook their dinner over a fire and laugh with all their friends? 'Cause that's what they really want. That's, that really sounds good.

    2. TS

      Just something simple.

    3. JR

      Something real, something that re- that's like there's, it's not that simple, 'cause it's hard to do all that shit, but there's something about it that's pure. It's pure.

    4. TS

      Well, you s-

    5. JR

      There's no if, ands, or buts

    6. TS

      ... you spend a lot of time outside, right? And, and the entire thing's an endeavor, right? If you go on, you go bow hunting or you know, you're gonna, you're gonna practice, prepare before you go. Then you're gonna hike your ass in, uh, somewhere. You're gonna have to set up a camp. Uh, and all of these are tasks before you've even gone to do the thing you went there to do, which is gonna be another task, but the completion of them is the reward.

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. TS

      And the fact that you're doing it yourself, everything done yourself. I think that's... And that's why people are so attracted to the life. That's why I've got, you know, third generation cowboys that went and got a degree in ranch management to come back and make, you know, $3,000 a month and couldn't be happier.

    9. JR

      It's wild, isn't it? It's really wild when you think about it. It's wild what people actually gravitate towards. 'Cause they say that... Have you ever seen that Werner Herzog, um, documentary, Happy People?

    10. TS

      No.

    11. JR

      It's called Happy People: Life in the Taiga, and it's all about these trappers that live on the Taiga River in, uh, Siberia. And, uh, all these people do is trap and hunt and fish. They don't have any other way to make a living. That's all they do, and they're so fucking happy. And they're all laughing together and drinking together and hanging out with their dogs, and their dogs are sled dogs. And so they're on, they're on snowmobiles, and the dogs are chasing behind them, and the dogs hunt with them. And these fucking people have like zero mental illness. And when they're talking to them, they're talking in Russian, so y- it's all translated. But what they're talking about, like the way they talk, it's like that this is how you're supposed to live. This is real life. And they're all happy. [laughs]

    12. TS

      There's a guy, I'm gonna get his name wrong, it's like Primager, something like that, uh, and he in the '60s-

    13. JR

      Dick Proenneke.

    14. TS

      Proenneke, that's it.

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. TS

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      Yeah, the guy who lived in Alaska.

    18. TS

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. TS

      Just went up, said, "Fuck it."

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. TS

      Went up into the way into the wild and built, by hand, a cabin and lived there and, and documented it. Brought a little Super 8 camera, whatever, filmed the whole thing.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. TS

      And, and filmed himself. I mean, he, he lived for 35 years. He was 80-something years old when he finally was too old to, to get through another winter when he came down, and he just built this cabin and just lived, hunted-

    25. JR

      Yeah

    26. TS

      ... fished, grew potatoes, had to build-

    27. JR

      There he is.

    28. TS

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      Proenneke. Proenneke.

    30. TS

      Yeah.

  15. 2:08:07 – 2:29:07

    Writing tradecraft, spies everywhere, and the “too weird to be fiction” news cycle

    1. TS

      Yeah, I had to res- I'll tell you what, my, my computer, I just assume that the CIA and FBI have, like, a whole team, because the shit I look up when I'm researching. I'm like, "How to make a bomb. S&M practice." [laughs] CIA hot regions in the Middle East, and it's all at once, right"

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. TS

      So I know-

    4. JR

      Yeah, there's no way they're not looking at your phone.

    5. TS

      No, they're looking at it going-

    6. JR

      Yeah

    7. TS

      ... "Ah, Taylor's writing something new. Look at this." [laughs]

    8. JR

      Well, I think anybody that has any influence, they probably look at your shit no matter what anyway, which is also dark. Like, we don't even know how much actual, real spying on people is occurring. We're just guessing.

    9. TS

      No, we don't have any idea. Um, I think within the world of tradecraft, a tremendous amount.

    10. JR

      Oh, yeah.

    11. TS

      I think within the world of, um, I mean, within that world, I think a ton.

    12. JR

      How... When you're writing that, how difficult is it to really keep your finger on the pulse of what's actually going on with, uh, espionage and, like, what tools they actually have available? Like, are you making some up?

    13. TS

      No. I mean, most of the... I mean, I'm sure there is some extremely high-tech tradecraft going on, right? For sure. Um, tracking devices and various things, satellite imagery, facial recognition, all of these things. But a lot of it's also very low tech by its, by design 'cause it's harder to, it's harder to trace, right? Um, and, and it's a lot of leverage and manipulation. Uh, you're either bribing someone with money or blackmailing them, and that's typically... Those, those are the two tools that, that are being used the most, um, in tradecraft and, and in the spy game, right? That's really... You- your- it's leverage. Leveraging individuals. And they're all doing it.

    14. JR

      Mm.

    15. TS

      Everybody, right? Every single... And then if you look at some of the... And again, I'm not getting on any, uh, p- completely apolitical. But from a tradecraft standpoint, what the Mossad was able to do with all those fucking cell phones and pagers and shit, like-

    16. JR

      Nuts

    17. TS

      ... you wanna talk about play the long game. Like, build this dummy company, sell all these, get all these devices to all of these people who are your enemy, and [laughs] start setting them off years later.

    18. JR

      Crazy.

    19. TS

      To detonate. Insanity.

    20. JR

      I mean, it's genius. It really is.

    21. TS

      Insanity.

    22. JR

      Not endorsing it.

    23. TS

      No.

    24. JR

      But just saying.

    25. TS

      No, but if you, if you-

    26. JR

      The actual act of doing it-

    27. TS

      To, to look incredibly-

    28. JR

      ... incredible

    29. TS

      ... the patience and the planning and the risks and, and the, that they were able to execute, that, uh, is, is shocking.

    30. JR

      When you saw that in the news, did you think, "If I wrote that, no one would fucking buy it"?

  16. 2:29:07 – 2:36:42

    “How to Not Die in Prison”: the accidental-inmate survival guide, plus a UFC coda

    1. TS

      I can't believe Simon & Schuster didn't send you my book.

    2. JR

      Yeah. Well, I don't know what happened, but I'll listen to it on audio tape. I'm glad you did the audio tape, though.

    3. TS

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      That's important.

    5. TS

      Yeah. Pull up the... You're gonna fucking love it. It's, it's oddly entertaining and informative.

    6. JR

      How did you have the time to write a book?

    7. TS

      So, so-

    8. JR

      You're writing 150 different TV shows

    9. TS

      ... so, so you know what it is. Do you know anything about it?

    10. JR

      No.

    11. TS

      Pull it up. I just want to... I'm gonna try and... I don't even wanna tell you what it's called. I just want you to see the title.

    12. JR

      Okay. How to Not Die in Prison. [laughs]

    13. TS

      [laughs] I told you you're gonna like it. So here's the... So h- so here's the deal. Um, so when I lived in LA, there was a gym on Beverly Boulevard, right at like Beverly and Sweetzer, and everybody called it Buns on Beverly, 'cause it had all the, the, the treadmills kind of right up there, and all the girls are there. And if you get stuck in traffic, you're staring at all their asses. That was my gym. So me and a buddy of mine shared an apartment together, and we'd jog down there and work out every day. And there was this dude that showed up and started working out in there, and this dude was jacked, but different than like the West Hollywood fit. Like, this fucker was yoked and had all these crazy tattoos on him. Um, and we became kind of like friendly and, uh, and ended up kind of becoming friends. And his name's Tom Nelson. And one day I'm like, "Hey, so, uh, what have you been doing?" He goes, "Well, you know, I'm gonna start a personal tr- I'm gonna start personal training here. I was working over at the vitamin shop." Guy's like in his 40s. I'm like, "Working in a vitamin shop in your 40s? That's kind of weird." And I said, "Yeah, um, have you always lived in, uh, California?" He's like, "Well, I've been here v- 19 years, 20 years." "Yeah, yeah." I said, "Where are you from?" "Somewhere in the southeast." And I said, "You always live in LA?" He goes, "Well, no, I just got to LA. See, I've been in prison." I said, "Oh. How long?" "17 years." I said, "Oh." And I didn't ask anything else, right? Uh, he does become a personal trainer, and I'd see him over... W- one day we have lunch and we're bullshitting, and I'm like s- s- "What, what, what... Tell me the deal." He's like, "Oh, I was a fucking criminal, dude. Like a criminal, like a real criminal, like biggest drug dealer in, in, in Hollywood, and armed robbery, and ran over a DEA agent. Like, I was a fucking criminal. But now I've... You know, when I was in, I, I s- I discovered, you know, fitness. I started working out." And I'm like, "When I get out, I'm gonna..." You know, he got himself in good shape. "I'm gonna start... This is my passion. I'm gonna do this." So he was a trainer there for a while, and then he opened his own personal training gym, and, uh, and I would go work out over there and hang out with him. He was a cool fucking dude. And, uh, and it became the biggest private training gym in independent, in Hollywood. So I go off and I, I, uh, you know, I start writing, and, uh, I'm shooting Yellowstone, and he reaches out and he goes, "Hey, I wrote a movie about my life. I'm gonna send it to you." So he sends it to me, and I read it, and it's actually pretty good. Um, but it's sort of a fun '90s kind of... They don't make movies like this anymore. It's like we... It's The Rock, but we're celebrating the p- you know, the guy, the fucking criminal. But it was, but it was good. I said, "Hey, I'll pass it on to some producers and..." But nothing ever happened with it. Anyway, so COVID happens. I'm stuck up on this ranch in Montana, and I call him and I say, "Tom, where do you get your gym equipment from? 'Cause I need to build a gym 'cause we can't go to a gym. I can't leave the ranch." COVID restrictions, the whole fucking cast is stuck on that ranch. And, and he said, "They shut my gym down, dude. So, I mean, I'll sell you anything you want." So I, I sent a flatbed trailer to LA and picked up a pile of gym equipment from him. And di- didn't, didn't hear from him again. He calls me maybe 18 months ago, two years, and I, and I answer, and he's like, "Hey, man, I'm in a bad way." I'm like, "What's the deal?" He goes, "Fucking, I got... " He's a single father. "I got a five-year-old kid. I got fucking colon cancer. I'm fucking dying, and I don't... I'm, I'm tapped out, dude. I'm a fucking 60-year-old felon. I can't get a job. I can't do anything. Is there any work on your movies or, or anything that I could do?" And I said, "Well, first, colon cancer, how bad? Like, what stage? What's this?" He goes, "I don't know. They saw it on an X-ray and diagnosed me." And I said, "Well, let's f- deal with that shit first." So I fly him to Texas where I know people, and I get him in, and he sees a, a doctor, and fortunately, the mass wasn't cancer, so they, th- they help him out, do the surgery, get that done. And then I say, "Well, I mean, I can get you a job on a movie, but it doesn't pay very good, and the hours are shit, and you've got a five-year-old daughter. I mean, you, you know, to just be a production assistant or something is not gonna pay enough to off- it's, it's not a great... that's not a plan, right?" And he goes, "You think you could, like, just spot me for a few months while I try and figure shit out?" And I said, "I have 100% failure rate of loaning money to friends. Like, it doesn't work, right? I'm not a bank, and, and buying you 90 days ain't gonna fucking help." I said, "But let me think. Let me think of something." And so it doesn't take me very long, and I'm, and I'm thinking, "Here's a guy who spent 17 years in prison." And you know what I've never read? I've never read a how to not fucking die, a, a travel guide to prison. So I call him back, and I go, "I got it, Tom. We're gonna write a book." "About my life?" "Kinda. We're gonna write a travel guide to prison for the accidental inmate, right? Somebody who fucks up, and they end up, and they don't know how to navigate this place." He goes, "A travel guide?" I said, "I'm gonna send you..." So I bought a bunch of Lonely Planet travel guide to Thailand and Mexico, and, and I said, "Look at these, right? It breaks it down. It tells you an overview of the country. Then it gives you a glossary of the terms. They teach you the language. They talk about the food. They talk about where you stay. They talk about navigating the country. We're gonna do that for, for prison." And he goes, "I'm in." I said, "Great. I'm gonna write all the intros. I'll build the structure and, and walk you through it, and you're gonna..." So it's literally a travel guide to prison, and it walks you through day one, how to navigate the yard, being processed in, the food, the commissary, the gangs, the diseases, prison riots, how to get a job in there, how to fucking make a shiv, how to... everything.

    14. JR

      Whoa.

    15. TS

      It's a, it is a ch- tour guide to prison.

    16. JR

      How many pages?

    17. TS

      A couple hundred.

    18. JR

      [laughs] It sounds awesome.

    19. TS

      It's the craziest-

    20. JR

      I hope I never need it.

    21. TS

      No. Well, I, I would-

    22. JR

      Most people who read it hope they never need it.

    23. TS

      I'm gonna guess 99% of the people who do read it, it... the one thing it'll do is tell you you don't ever wanna fucking go there. That's for sure, right? And typically, if someone's going there, I even say in the intro, I'm like, "If you're, if you're buying this book because you're going to prison, finish the book before you get to prison. Do not bring this book with you to prison, or you'll die on fucking day one. So leave the book at home." But yeah, so, so then we did. I took the b- we, we wrote three chapters of it. I took it out, um, and Simon & Schuster read it, flipped, and me and Tom got a book deal. So-

Episode duration: 2:43:47

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