Joe Rogan Experience #2530 - Timothy Alberino

1. 0:00 – 0:02

   Intro

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:02 – 3:59

   Setting the stage: why “giants” makes insiders nervous

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music]

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Do you prefer Tim or Timothy?

   3. TATimothy Alberino0:14

      Tim is fine.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      All right. What's up, Tim? What's going on?

   5. TATimothy Alberino0:17

      What's up, Joe?

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Nice to meet you. [laughs]

   7. TATimothy Alberino0:19

      Great to be with you.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      Uh, I've seen a lot of your content online, but the one that got me the most was absolutely the giant in Afghanistan, the Kandahar giant story. And I don't know if you know, but, um, I had, uh, Devon Larratt on the podcast-

   9. TATimothy Alberino0:34

      Mm-hmm

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       ... the arm wrestler, and he told a story about how when he was in the Canadian military, he was deployed in Afghanistan. And, um, one of the guys that he was working with over there had to have a conversation with a warlord, with a local warlord, and he said this guy was eight feet tall. He said this guy was fucking huge, and, and not just tall, but wide. He said it was the biggest man he's ever seen in his life.

   11. TATimothy Alberino0:59

       Well, I've heard a lot of things about giants in, in Afghanistan. And I find that, uh, you know, I, I, I talk about a lot of different topics. I talk about a lot of UFO stuff. Um, and I say some things that I know are, that I know could get me in trouble, but nothing makes me n- more nervous than talking about giants, specifically the Kandahar giant, and, and the giants in Kandahar in general.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       Why?

   13. TATimothy Alberino1:28

       You know, mainly because when I talk to people who know things, they're very, very nervous when we get to this topic. And some of them will just flat out will not talk about giants in general, but specifically giants in Afghanistan. And some of these guys are high-level guys that worked at the Pentagon. Um, and they'll talk rather freely with me about UFOs, but as soon as we broach this topic, it's, it's like they, they warn... They literally will warn me, "Be careful with this topic."

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:03

       What? [laughs]

   15. TATimothy Alberino2:04

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:04

       What do you make of that?

   17. TATimothy Alberino2:07

       Well, I think that, uh, the, the, the topic of giants is intermeshed with the occult. That's my personal theory, 'cause nothing else makes sense. Who cares if there's eight-foot-tall guys, right? Big deal.

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       Right. Well, there's eight-foot-tall humans, right? There's... We were just talking about that young kid that's a basketball player that's seven foot nine, right? There's a few of them now I've seen, yeah. Yeah. So there's actual giants that are in public.

   19. TATimothy Alberino2:33

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:33

       That like play for the NBA.

   21. TATimothy Alberino2:35

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:36

       And th- they're out there. You could meet them. [laughs]

   23. TATimothy Alberino2:38

       Mm-hmm. But when, when I talk- when I say giants, I'm talking about 9 to 12 feet tall.

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:44

       Right.

   25. TATimothy Alberino2:44

       That's, that's... 8 to 12 feet tall would, would... Eight, I would, I would classify an eight-foot-tall person as a giant as well, as long as they don't have gigantism.

   26. JRJoe Rogan2:53

       Right.

   27. TATimothy Alberino2:53

       That's a completely different thing.

   28. JRJoe Rogan2:54

       Right. Right.

   29. TATimothy Alberino2:55

       Gigantism is a disability.

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:57

       This Kandahar giant story is very crazy because, um, what, what's interesting about it is the people that I've talked to that have been in Afghanistan, that were deployed in Afghanistan, not just Devon, but other people, they don't dismiss it. They say, "We've heard some weird shit about that place." The, and the, the thing that they always say is, you gotta realize, like, Afghanistan is an old country. It's old, and it's very remote. Like, most of it is very mountainous. It's controlled by warlords. And, you know, look, there's these... What are those? Are they Greek or Roman, those, uh, structures that are there, that were, that date... The Greek... They look like Greek temples that date back to Alexander the Great.
3. 3:59 – 8:05

   The Kandahar Giant story: the C-130 pilot’s alleged firsthand account

   1. TATimothy Alberino3:59

      ... uh, the, so the story of the Kandahar giant.

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:02

      Yeah, let's tell the story.

   3. TATimothy Alberino4:03

      This story has grown into a mythology over the years. Um, years ago, I was working with a gentleman named Steve Quayle, and we started a production company called Gen 6 Productions, and we were making documentary films mainly about giants, mainly on the topic of giants.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:22

      Giants as, like, referred to in, in the Bible-

   5. TATimothy Alberino4:25

      Yeah, just-

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:25

      ... in ancient history, the Smithsonian giants.

   7. TATimothy Alberino4:27

      That's right, biblical and historical accounts of giants.

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:30

      Oh, wow.

   9. TATimothy Alberino4:30

      So I was traveling around the world investigating giants, and Steve is known for his investigations into giants. And he got a phone call from an elderly, an elderly woman who told him, "You need to talk to my son. My son has a story he needs to tell you." And she had to convince her son to talk to Steve, and, and ultimately he did. And he was active duty. He was a C-130 pilot, active duty. He actually went on Coast to Coast with Steve. They went on Coast to Coast together, and, and he related his story, I, I believe, with George Noory. Him, Steve, and George. And then later on, we, we flew him into Bozeman, Montana, to put him in our documentary film that we were making. And he did not... He, he wanted to be filmed in silhouette. He did not want his face out there, even though he knew that they're gonna be able to mark him just by his voice. So he flies into Bozeman. Uh, we meet with him. He shows us his credentials. He was active duty C-130. And then he told us the following story, among many other things that he told us. He said back in 2005, he was deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq running missions as a C-130 cargo pilot, and oftentimes they would have him fly into Bagram Airfield, and these were routine missions. And so on one of these missions, he's flying into Bagram. But this time when he landed, he was met... As soon as he deplaned, he was met on the tarmac by some individuals that he describes as the babysitters. He calls them the babysitters. He thinks they were either Army intelligence or Air Force intelligence guys. They didn't tell him. But this was different because when he disembarked- They told him no photos, no mention of this ever, this never happened. So he knew that whatever was about to happen was top secret. And he had flown, uh, classified missions before, usually retrieving Taliban guys, what, what he described as high-valued assets. But this was different because these were, there were intelligence guys on the tarmac waiting for something. And it turns out what they were waiting for was the cargo that was being delivered on a forklift to the, to the C-130. And the pilot says that the first thing that struck him as this cargo was moving toward him and his crew was the, was the odor. He said it smelled like this, like musk, BO, and death, and it was extremely pungent. And when the cargo arrived, it was on a, an air cargo pallet, which is seven by nine, and there was a... He could see that there was a person on the pallet in the fetal position. And this individual was so large that his hands and his feet and part of his head were, were hanging off the pallet. And he and his loadmaster, and there were some Marines who accompanied the pallet, who accompanied this cargo, uh, they were actually putting their feet up to this guy's feet, this dead giant's feet, and seeing how small their feet were compared to his. Now, the giant had red hair. He had six fingers on each hand, six toes on each foot. His feet were wrapped in, like, a crude canvas foot wrapping. And he was solid as a rock. Again,

4. 8:05 – 9:29

   How the giant was supposedly killed—and where the body went

   1. TATimothy Alberino8:05

      most of his body was covered by a tarp, but the pilot and the guys around him were, were hitting him with their fists. And he came up to about their, their midsection, laying in the fetal position, and he, and the pilot told me he was solid as a rock, this guy. And he asked the, the Marines, "What happened? Where did this guy come from?" And they told him that they had heard that there was a team that was out in Afghanistan that was looking for Taliban or something, and they came upon a cave. Because there was a nearby village, and the villagers were, were bringing food and other artifacts to the mouth of this cave, and so they thought that they're aiding and abetting the Taliban. So they went into the cave, and rather than encountering the Taliban, what they found was this enormous humanoid who killed them all. And then, according to these soldiers, they deployed another team to go look for that team. And when they found the cave, they found the traces of that other team. They were ready, they were prepared, and they were able to kill the giant. In fact, the soldiers told the pilot that the giant was eating on members of the team who he had, who had killed previously. But these new guys, they took him down, and then they had a, a transport helicopter come in and airlift him to Bagram.

5. 9:29 – 17:54

   Official denial and ‘you shouldn’t ask that’ reactions

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:29

      Did you ever try to find records of who was there and w- uh, casualties that were reported, deaths that were reported?

   2. TATimothy Alberino9:39

      Um, it's very difficult. The Pentagon actually released a statement some years ago, which was bizarre to me, you know, basically saying, and paraphrasing, "The Kandahar Giant incident never happened. There was never a giant that was killed in Afghanistan."

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:54

      The Pentagon?

   4. TATimothy Alberino9:55

      Yeah. It was a represent-

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:56

      Recently?

   6. TATimothy Alberino9:56

      It was, like, a spokesman from the Pentagon or something, or a release from the Pentagon.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:00

      Is this available online?

   8. TATimothy Alberino10:01

      Yeah. They actually felt the need to debunk this.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:04

      That's hilarious.

   10. TATimothy Alberino10:04

       Now-

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:05

       That, that gets me sketchy.

   12. TATimothy Alberino10:07

       Well-

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:08

       [laughs]

   14. TATimothy Alberino10:08

       Uh, I believed the pilot because he was a very credible guy. He didn't want his name out there. He didn't want fame or notoriety. He was very nervous. He thought, "There's a good chance that they're gonna recognize me by my voice." He was on Coast to Coast AM, and then he's on, in our documentary. "There's a good chance I'm gonna get recognized, and there's gonna be some reprisal." He was nervous. Now, they weighed the giant before they loaded him on the C-130, 'cause they have to load everything that goes onto the C-130. The loadmaster weighed him. He weighed 1,100 pounds, and they estimated his w- his height at 10 to 12 feet tall. And so they loaded him onto the C-130, and then they flew him to Qatar, and then they, they unloaded the cargo in Qatar. And the, and our pilot told me he heard through the grapevine that the body ended up at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. He said, "I don't know. That's just what I heard." So this is a firsthand account from the C-130 pilot who flew the body himself from Bagram Airfield to Qatar.

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:16

       Why does all the weird shit go to Wright-Patterson?

   16. TATimothy Alberino11:18

       [laughs] That's a good question. You know-

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:20

       'Cause that's where the weird shit goes

   18. TATimothy Alberino11:21

       ... Wright-Patterson used to have this, the, the Blue Room. I don't know if they still have it. But they used to have a room there called the Blue Room where they had all of the alien artifacts that had been recovered and that they were studying. And, um, it was completely off-limits to anybody except for people who had access, uh, the very few who had access. And, um, but the Kandahar Giant, you know, that story, a, a colleague of mine, LA Marzulli, he had another guy come to him, a different guy. We, we interviewed the pilot, Steve and I. LA had another guy come to him that was... I can't remember the details. He was a Special Forces guy. He had firsthand knowledge of the event as well. And we're not sure if it's the same one or a different one, if it's, w- if there was just one incident with the giants or, uh, if there were multiple incidents. Now, years later, this would be just a couple of years ago, because we published that film, I think, back in 2016. But just a couple of years ago, and I, I do have to be very careful here, I, I ran into a, a gentleman who was, who was a Very high up, let's say, in the operations happening out there during the Iraq War and in fact, and, and in Afghanistan. And, uh, this individual, uh, had, um, he, he'd flown a lot of missions. And, and he was a commander. And I asked him, we were having a casual conversation, and he starts to walk away, and I said, "Hey, you were in, flying missions in Afghanistan." I said, "Did you, have you ever heard about the Kandahar Giant?" And his wife was standing next to me, and he's sort of walking away. He turns around, the blood rushes out of his face, and he literally goes like this to me, points to his phone, and his wife whispers, "He can't talk about that."

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:13

       [laughs]

   20. TATimothy Alberino13:14

       So later on, I was able to... We, we agreed to meet at, later on, and, and in a, in a very controlled environment. Um, and, and he related a story to me that's the most wild story I've, I've ever heard in my life, and I, I'm sorry, I can't relay it. [laughs] Um, I love this guy. I wanna protect him. But, um, it's not the Giant of Kandahar. It's the giants of Kandahar. There's more than one. The military has known about it. I then, at, and aside from him, I talked to other soldiers who've also, um, who've also had knowledge of that, the specific incident that I stated earlier, but then also, in general, the giants in Afghanistan. And I have a friend of mine who, uh, I met some years ago. Actually, I was with, uh, Lou Elizondo, uh, at Lou's bar in Wyoming. And, uh, there was a, a, a, a friend of Lou's who's now a friend of mine there, and we were talking about the Kandahar Giant. I was just telling him the story I told you, and he just couldn't believe it. He thought, "This is, this is nuts. This is crazy." And I said, "Okay, do something for me. Next time you're talking to somebody in government or in the military who you think maybe might know something about this, bring it up. See what happens." So he called me one day, and he said, "Tim, you're not gonna believe it." He said, "I was talking to..." I have to be very careful here, too. He said, "I was talking to a certain individual who works for a senator. He's a, he's a, a staffer." I think, I believe he's one of the, a chief of staff for the senator, or at the very least, an advisor. And he's got a military background, Special Forces. And he said, "I was sitting there. We're, we're really good friends." He said, "We were having a casual conversation, as we always do. And just in the midst of this conversation, I said, 'Hey, what, what do you know about the Kandahar Giant?'" And he said his face completely contorted. And he was no longer just, they were no longer just being happy and laughing. He became very stern, and he, and he said, "What have you gotten yourself into? What, what are you looking into?" He said, "You need to be really careful." And he wouldn't tell him anything else. That's the kind of reaction that, that I get and others get whenever we, we try and get information on this story.

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:43

       It's a very fun story. I don't know why it's so fun, but it's very fun. Um, but the question is, what would be the reason why they would wanna keep something like this a secret?

   22. TATimothy Alberino15:54

       So-

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:54

       I don't, I don't totally understand it.

   24. TATimothy Alberino15:56

       I don't either.

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:57

       I mean, if there really were a race of giants that survi- Let's, let's assume that what we're talking about is what's referenced in the Bible, right? Let's, let's assume, or at least The Book of Enoch, or the Nephilim.

   26. TATimothy Alberino16:10

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:11

       Right? If w- we're talking about giants. Like, the thing about giants is, like, Native Americans have stories about redheaded giants. They, they talk about the same thing-

   28. TATimothy Alberino16:22

       Mm-hmm

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       ... about them having six fingers and six toes. They have these same myths. Like, how is it that people from the Middle East and people from North America have this same ancient story? And what is it, what is it in reference to? Like, why, why does that...

   30. TATimothy Alberino16:40

       It's ubiquitous. This, I mean-
6. 17:54 – 27:38

   Why hide giants? Alberino’s occult framework (Enoch, demons, Baal)

   1. TATimothy Alberino17:54

      Okay, so, um, let me tell you why I think that this thing's being covered up, and then-

   2. JRJoe Rogan18:01

      Okay

   3. TATimothy Alberino18:01

      ... and then I'll tell you why I think it's real.

   4. JRJoe Rogan18:04

      Okay.

   5. TATimothy Alberino18:04

      And we'll go to Sardinia for that. So I, like you, have been wondering for a long time, like, what is the big deal? And initially, people in my field, especially people who are coming from a biblical perspective, the common answer is, well, the existence of giants would affirm the biblical narrative, right? And so these secular atheist types don't want the biblical narrative affirmed. I, that can't be, that can't be right because the existence of giants doesn't just affirm the biblical narrative, it, it affirms the myths and legends of every ancient culture across the globe-

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:37

      Right

   7. TATimothy Alberino18:38

      ... including the Bible. So it's not something that's specific exclusive to the text of scripture. So it would just affirm all these legends in, in general. So the only thing that makes sense to me at this point... And the other line of thinking, by the way, would be that it would somehow conflict with the theory of evolution by natural selection, which I don't really buy into that either because they would just say that this branch of humanoids, um, they descended from Gigantopithecus or something like that. I don't think it would be that difficult of a problem for the theory of evolution by natural selection either. Um, I'm not myself an evolutionist, but I don't, I don't see them having that difficult of a problem here. So the only thing left on the table for me is that there's something very sinister going on in regard to the remains of giants. And if you study the mythology of giants all over the world, especially in the ancient Near East, you will discover that there was in fact a cult of giants, that there w- that there were cultures that venerated giants, and that there was a very particular belief about giants, and this goes back into the Book of Enoch. And the idea is that this race of beings who are not entirely human, they're hybrids, that when they die, you can still make contact with their spirits, with their souls. They can be summoned. They... In fact, these are the demons that-- These are the, in the New Testament of the Bible, these are the demons that possess people. This is the origin of demons, by the way, in Hebrew cosmology. So there's this pervasive idea, again, especially in the ancient Near East, that dead giants can be communicated with and, and can possess living human beings, their spirits. And so you have a cult of giants in the ancient Near East, especially among the Canaanites. And the Canaanites, they had... Actually, there's, uh, uh, th- th- there's various, uh, customs and, and, and rites related to giants. But one of the specific ones that we know about is called Qismem, the Rite of Qismem. And there's a fantastic book written by my, my friends Derek and Sheryn Gilbert called Veneration, where they detail the Rite of Qismem and this idea of making contact with the spirits of dead giants and the veneration of giants. And the Rite of Qismem was, it was practiced broadly speaking in, in the ancient Near East, but specifically among the Amorites and other Canaanite clans as well. And, and what they would do is they would hold a feast, and then they would invite the dead to come and join them at the feast. So this was a necromantic rite, and they would in- they would evoke the dead, and they believed that the dead would come and, and, and eat with them. Now, the kings, and specifically the Amorite kings, they would invoke the spirits of the mighty ones, the great ones, the giants of old, the Rephaim. The biblical account names various different clans of giants that inhabited the Levant during and after the conquest by Joshua and the, and the Hebrews. And you, you had the Anakim who descended from the Nephilim. You had the Rephaim, the Zamzummim, the Emim. These are various clans of giants that are specifically named in the Bible. Of course, we get Goliath of Gath. Gath is a Philistine city. After Joshua entered the Promised Land, they drove out and eradicated a lot of these giant clans, but some of them remained. Some of the individuals remained, and they were primarily went to the Philistine cities of Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod. And so you have Goliath of Gath, who David encounters later in the biblical text. So it's these heroes of old, these, these descendants of the Nephilim that the Amorites and the ancient Near Easterners are, are attempting to make contact with because they have knowledge, and they, they, these are possessing spirits. And so the Rite of Qismem, the, the kings would summon the Rephaim by name, and you can find this in the Ugaritic texts. Uh, Ugarit was a, an Amorite city-state located on, uh, on, on the shore of the Mediterranean in, in what is today northern Syria. And they have, uh, uncovered documents where the Amorite kings are summoning, specifically by name, summoning dead giants, the Rephaim. And the idea is to summon them and then to become empowered by their spirits, their possessing spirits. Again, this goes back to the tradition of Enoch, that the giants, when they die, their spirits are in sort of a state of suspended animation, and they can be revived. They can be resurrected as it were and, and can be made to inhabit the bodies of human beings. So there's this ancient cult that existed in the ancient Near East and in other parts of the world, and it's associated with the cult of Baal. Um, so you have, uh, Baal, the, the, the giants were thought of as the warriors of Baal. So today, we know that the cult of Baal persists. I mean, the Epstein files. We know that the cult of Baal is still being practiced.

   8. JRJoe Rogan24:02

      When, when you say the Epstein files, what do you mean? Uh, what is the cult-

   9. TATimothy Alberino24:05

      There's references to Baal, and there's, there's the, there's this recurrent theme of Baal worship. And Baal, Jesus, uh, Jesus refers to Baal as Satan in the New Testament, so it's basically Satanism. It's, it's a Satanic cult. And-

   10. JRJoe Rogan24:22

       And how, how is it referenced in the Epstein files?

   11. TATimothy Alberino24:24

       There's some, there's some references to Baal. I can't remember the exact references, but there's, there's a, there's apparently a cult of Baal And the elites are obsessed with, some of the elites, I don't know who or how many of them, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that there's a, a, uh, that there's an infatuation with these ancient Near Eastern cults, specifically the Canaanitish cults. And so the reason why I'm going through all of this is because I think it's still alive and well today in society, and I believe that they're using the bones, the remains of giants in these practices. I think it's extremely dark. I think, um, this is part of the reason why, part of the reason why there may be a cover-up around it. Um, nothing else makes sense to me. Nothing else makes sense to me.

   12. JRJoe Rogan25:13

       In terms of the cover-up?

   13. TATimothy Alberino25:14

       In terms of the cover-up. We were talking about it earlier.

   14. JRJoe Rogan25:16

       Well, the cover-up, it makes sense to me that you have i- incredibly powerful, wealthy people that don't wanna be exposed as being perverts and-

   15. TATimothy Alberino25:23

       Yeah

   16. JRJoe Rogan25:24

       ... whatever the fuck they were up to.

   17. TATimothy Alberino25:26

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan25:26

       And there's all the weird shit with beef jerky and pizza. You know, there's these very strange references that seem to not be talking about beef jerky and not... It's some kind of a code.

   19. TATimothy Alberino25:38

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan25:38

       And there's also the fact that he brought a, an enormous amount of sulfuric acid-

   21. TATimothy Alberino25:45

       Mm-hmm

   22. JRJoe Rogan25:45

       ... like right after he was indicted-

   23. TATimothy Alberino25:47

       Right

   24. JRJoe Rogan25:47

       ... to the island. Like, I, I forget how many gallons of it-

   25. TATimothy Alberino25:50

       Mm-hmm

   26. JRJoe Rogan25:50

       ... but barrels of sulfuric acid-

   27. TATimothy Alberino25:52

       Right

   28. JRJoe Rogan25:53

       ... which is what you would use to dissolve bodies. So it's like, it, it seems like there's a lot of reasons for a cover-up. If this guy was running some sort of a blackmail operation and had information on powerful people, you would... That would make sense that that's why they would cover it up.

   29. TATimothy Alberino26:11

       Well, that's the cover-up for the pedophilia.

   30. JRJoe Rogan26:13

       Or just-
7. 27:38 – 35:17

   Global giant legends and the ‘best evidence’ pivot to Sardinia

   1. TATimothy Alberino27:38

      Yeah, well, okay, so this will get us into Sardinia. So whenever anyone asks me, "What's the, what's the best evidence you've ever seen for the existence of giants?" Now, you've already cited some, some his- some historical context around this. The legend of giants is everywhere. It's on every continent. And you have giants, aside from the biblical account, obviously all over the Mesopotamia, the cult of giants. In the United States, during this, the era of the Sm- the Smithsonian Gate, the Smithsonian's apparent, the Smithsonian Institution's apparent cover-up of giants, e- especially the ones that were being discovered in the mounds here in the United States. But it's pervasive. In Peru, there's legends of giants. And, uh, the natives, the indigenous peoples absolutely believe there was a primordial race of giants. The same thing in Central America. They believe there was a primordial race of giants that was destroyed in a cataclysm, specifically a flood. That's what the Inca believed, that Viracocha, the guy Viracocha created first a race of giants, but they were, they were s- they were stupid and evil, and so he destroyed them in a flood. Same, same story down in, uh, up in Mexico and, and among the Aztec. And the Native Americans, the six-fingered red-haired giants and so forth. So there's a lot of, um, historical context, and I would s- and of course it's anecdotal, but it's... But how much anecdotal evidence just... At what point does anecdotal evidence just become evidence, when there's, when it's so pervasive all over the world?

   2. JRJoe Rogan29:07

      Right.

   3. TATimothy Alberino29:07

      So, um, as I was traveling around the world studying giants and researching this topic and investigating different stories and legends, um, I went to Malta, which is very interesting. Obviously, lots of legends of giants in Malta associated with the megaliths. And then, and then I kind of hit ground zero for giants, which is the island of Sardinia. And the island of Sardinia is located west of, of Rome. It's part of, uh, Italy. It's in the western Mediterranean, below, below Corsica. And many people don't realize this about Sardinia, but Sardinia has the highest, um, has the most megaliths anywhere on Earth. It has the highest concentration of megaliths anywhere that I've been, as far as I'm aware of. There, there are these, uh, massive megalithic towers called nuraghi that were constructed allegedly by the, uh, or conventionally by the, uh, nuraghi- the nuragic civilization, Bronze Age civilization. And there are today still at least 7,000 of these things standing. You can go to Sardinia and see 7,000 nuraghi towers. There were at one time 10 to 30,000 of these megalithic towers, and some of these towers stood over 100 feet tall.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:35

      Shane, can we see some pictures of these? Yeah, how would he look?

   5. TATimothy Alberino30:40

      Nuraghi.

   6. SPSpeaker30:41

      I'm just-

   7. TATimothy Alberino30:41

      Sardinia Nuraghi. Nuraghi's fail-

   8. SPSpeaker30:43

      I was looking, I got three different things

   9. TATimothy Alberino30:44

      ... they're there

   10. SPSpeaker30:44

       So I don't, I guess this is it. Is that, yeah, that's what it is.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:50

       So what is the timeline of this Nuragic, how do you say it? Nuragic?

   12. TATimothy Alberino30:54

       The Nuragic civilization, it's the Bronze Age.

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:56

       Yeah, the Bronze Age. So what is that?

   14. TATimothy Alberino30:58

       3300 to, 3300 BC to about 1200 BC.

   15. JRJoe Rogan31:03

       And that's what this stuff is from.

   16. TATimothy Alberino31:05

       And, um, they say it was cr- they say that these were built in the Bronch A- Bronze Age. That's the, the conventional idea. And again, there's 7,000 of them on the island today, but there were up, up to, I've seen estimates up to 30,000, including at the museum in Sardinia. And aside from these towers, they also have... These are, by the way, these are megalithic. So these are, these are megalithic towers that are constructed in the Cyclopean style. And Cyclopean masonry, Cyclopean architecture is the trademark of megaliths worldwide. And Cyclopean, this is the, this is the, the archeological term for the technique. Cyclopean referencing the great Cyclopes of, of Greek mythology, who were believed to be the inventors of tower building, and, you know, the builders, the offspring of the gods who were the great builders and masons. Um, that's the, that's the mythology. But the trademark of Cyclopean architecture is that these, these are large stones that are fitted together without the use of any binding agent, like mortar, without any kind of mortar. And you have, you have ex- exquisite examples of Cyclopean masonry in different parts of the earth, like in Peru, the walls of Sacsayhuaman are, are absolutely amazing, breathtakingly, um, beautiful in regard to their design and the polygonal, um, tightly fitting blocks, immense blocks of stone. Whereas in Sardinia, these are crude blocks. They're crudely, uh, worked blocks of, of basalt and granite and limestone that are fitted together, but without the use of mortar. So they are built in the Cyclopean style. And again, some of them were 100 feet tall, and they had a, some of them were for defensive purposes, and they, some of them had a wooden platform that crowned the top, and that platform was buttressed by other very large stones that were, that were finally cut, sometimes basalt. I've, I've seen some of these stones in Sardinia. And I've been to the island a few times researching the towers and giants. And, um, aside from the towers, these megalithic towers, you also have megalithic tombs, which are called to this day, the Tombs of the Giants. And you can go and visit them. There were, um, there's 800 of them extant today, and archeologists believe there were many more in the past. No one knows exactly how many. But oftentimes it seems to me that the towers and the tombs are closely associated. They fulfill a function, I think, that is, um, that is inter- interrelated. And the megalithic Tombs of the Giants, the legends in Sar- according to legend in Sardinia, uh, they were associated with the bodies of giants. But of course, today you have armchair archeologists who'll say, "That's just a myth. There's, the, you couldn't even fit bodies inside of these tombs." Yes, you could. I mean, none of these guys have ever bothered to go to Sardinia with a, with a tape measure. I did. And yes, you can. You can, you can fit the bodies of nine, eight, nine, 10-foot-tall guys in these tombs without a problem. And there's two different styles of megalithic tombs in Sardinia. You have the stele style, which it's, um, it's, there's a large stele stone, a monolithic stone in the front with a little doorway in it, and the doorway's almost like a little doggy door at the bottom. But it's big enough, I mean, a, a, a young person could crawl through it. Uh, and then you have the trilithon doorway, this style of megalithic tomb, which is a larger doorway. You still have to, like a guy my size would still have to bend down to get inside. But the tombs are configured the same. They're shaped the same, these two different styles. And what, uh, a lot of people misunderstand about the tombs is the tombs were not built to house the bodies of giants. They were built on top of the interred giant. So the giant was inhumed beneath the tomb. It was buried beneath the tomb, and then the edifice was built on top. So that opening-

8. 35:17 – 39:24

   Sardinia’s ‘rite of incubation’: tombs as womb-like initiation chambers

   1. JRJoe Rogan35:17

      Where are you getting this information?

   2. TATimothy Alberino35:18

      Oh, this is known in Sardinia. Um, I've spent a lot of time researching the, the, the Tombs of the Giants in Sardinia and talking to various experts. Um-

   3. JRJoe Rogan35:28

      And who are these experts, like local historians? Like what, who are they?

   4. TATimothy Alberino35:31

      Some of them, yeah. One, there's, there's... You can go to the, um, you can also go to the museums in Sardinia and read a lot of this stuff. Um, now the, I have a friend named Paula Loy, who's, uh, she's a, she's a, I think she's the best tour guide in Sardinia, and she's extremely knowledgeable about all this stuff. She'd take you to the museum, and you walk through all of this information with her. And they have little models in the museum of the, the Tombs of the Giants. And there's a legend in Sardinia that it's, that it's, it's called the, it's called the Rite of Incubation, and this is a necromantic rite that was practiced by the Sardinians, and it describes the purpose of the tombs. So the tombs, when you walk into the tombs, again, they're megalithic. The walls are megalithic. Some pretty large stones incorporated in these tombs. When you walk into the tombs, there's a gallery inside, and the, the, the gallery's rather large. You could fit a body of a giant in there, but that's beside the point because that's not the purpose of the tomb. The purpose of the tomb, of the gallery inside the tomb, is to is for the, it's to accommodate a young person during a rite of passage. And dur- in, during the Bronze Age, you're talking about boys from 12 to 14 years old, right? Generally speaking. And they would go into the tomb alone, and they would be sealed in the tomb. So that little doggy door that's in the stele, uh, the stele version of the Tombs of the Giants, they would crawl in there, and then they would be sealed inside. And there's a little, um, on most of those stele tombs, there's a little hole at the top as well. So there's... So it's not like they're, they're s- sealed in there and they can't breathe or anything. No, they, they, they would go in there, and they would spend some days in the tomb alone.

   5. JRJoe Rogan37:25

      This is what it looks like?

   6. TATimothy Alberino37:26

      That's one of the doors of the stele, uh, monolithic stone. And they're all shaped the same. It's hard to tell because they've been disassembled. Many of them have been disassembled. But you can see there the trilithon. That's a trilithon tomb. That's a, that's something else. That's a well. Um, but the tombs are all sha- You can see down there. See right, the picture right below that one. There you go. See how the tombs are shaped?

   7. JRJoe Rogan37:51

      Yeah.

   8. TATimothy Alberino37:53

      Now, that's how all these tombs are shaped that way. This has to do with the rite of incubation. So the young person would go inside the gallery. They'd be sealed inside, that young boy, and they would-- The purpose of this was to incubate inside of the gallery in order to be empowered and energized by the spirit of the mighty one buried beneath the tomb. And again, according to legend, the mighty ones were giants. So I don't think it's coincidental that the tombs are actually shaped like a womb. If you look at that, the, the, the view of the tomb from above, originally, when I was, um, researching this in Sardinia, I thought it was shaped like a bull's head, which would be something like, uh, iconographic of Molech or something like that, Canaanitish. But I, I realized that actually this is shaped like a womb. The tomb looks like a womb. If you pull up a womb, you'll see what I mean. It looks, it looks like a womb. It's shaped like a womb. And, and this was to accommodate the rite of incubation. And so these young people, the, the idea is they're in there. They are communing, incubating in the presence of the dead hero buried beneath, and they're absorbing their spirit, their prowess, and then the tomb is unsealed, and the young person emerges from the womb, as it were. It's like a new birth. They're now, they went in a, a boy. They're now coming out a man empowered by the spirit of the, of their ancestral heroes. So these are,

9. 39:24 – 49:59

   Sardinian excavation testimonies: artifacts, removals, and intimidation

   1. TATimothy Alberino39:24

      these are called to this day the Tombs of the Giants. Now, you can say, "Well, that's just, that's just mythology. That's just Sardinian legend." The problem is you can interview people, or at least you could in times past, interview Sardinians all across the island who have themselves dug up the bones of giants or encountered the bones of giants in, in, in some kind of a, a, in some context, usually around the towers, the Nuraghe towers. I interviewed dozens of people in Sardinia, most of them elderly, who had themselves encountered the bo- the bones of giants in, in different contexts while plowing in fields. They, they, they'd pull up bones, or they would find the bones in the tombs or whatever, and it's very easy to dismiss the whole thing as, "Well, they were just digging up megafauna," right? The, the bones of mastodons and giant sloths. The problem is some of these bones had jewelry. Some of them had, had Roman coins associated with them. Some of them had rings on the fingers and necklaces around the, the, the neck, the collar. And, and they would actually, the, the, the Sar- the, and the, most of these were old-timers because, um, this doesn't, it's not really happening anymore in Sardinia. This is something that was happening in the '60s, '50s, '40s, '30s, and, and back. But especially between, like, post-World War II, when the island was undergoing a process of industrialization, and they were building new roads and, and, and digging for foundations and stuff. They were, they were digging up the bones of giants. And there's a, um, there's a particular church called Santa Anastasia in Sardinia, uh, and it's in the region of Sardara. And I interviewed two gentlemen in, in Sardinia, two guys who were officially employed by the municipality and by the University of Cagliari. Cagliari is the capital city of Sardinia. They were specifically employed to excavate the ruins, the Nuragic ruins on the premises of the Church of Santa, Santa Anastasia. Santa Anastasia is a small little Catholic church. But if you go there, you'll see that even today you can see the remains of a Nuragic settlement there. There's a, there, there are Nuraghe towers there. It's just, it's, it's an archeological site. And these two individuals, one of them, his name was Giuseppe, the other's name was Roberto. And Giuseppe worked there from, um, he worked there from, I believe it was, uh, 1979 to 1981, and then Roberto worked there from 1982 to 1984. Both of these guys employed officially, in an official capacity from the municipality of Sardara to do this excavation. And so they would be there. The, the, the protocol was you go and you excavate the ruins, and all the artifacts you find get put into the church. So all the artifacts went into the Church of Santa Anastasia, and you can see this church, by the way, if you pull it up. It's called Santa Anastasia in Sardinia. And all the bones were put into the church. All the artifacts were put into the church. And among the artifacts that were being collected were the skeletons of giants, and not- Mastodons, not giant sloths

   2. JRJoe Rogan42:44

      Are there photographs of these things?

   3. TATimothy Alberino42:45

      These guys, they... Well, of course not. But these guys were, uh, very reluctant to talk to us. The one guy, Roberto, was very nervous. He said, "We were told never to talk about this. This never happened." Again, this was back in the '80s. He didn't think anything of it. He wasn't told, "Go to Sant'Anastasia and, and look for the bones of giants." He was just told, "Go excavate the site." He was one of the excavators at Sant'Anastasia, and the whole thing was being, um, the whole thing was being supervised by the municipality and the, and the university. And, and he dug up, personally, he said he dug up the bodies, two bodies, 10-foot-tall guys, full skeletons, and he laid them out in the... These ones, he laid out in the courtyard of the church. And he said he, he notified the people in Cagliari of the discovery, and what would happen is all the artifacts that would go into the church, or in this case, outside of the church, somebody would come at night and take them all away. So they'd get there in the morning, all the artifacts are gone. He didn't know where they went. Um, the other individual, Giuseppe, he also excavated giants from Sant'Anastasia, various, various, uh, artifacts related to the giants, gigantic plates, gigantic cups and goblets, chalices. Um, they excavated, they excavated a lot of different artifacts, rings, and, and, and earrings, and necklaces, and all kinds of, all manner of artifacts. And he told me that he remembers a particular case in which he and his wife, his wife was helping him on this particular day. They're excavating in the ruins, and they found a skull that was so large. He said the skulls were three to four times larger than ours. He found this skull that was very large, and it had part of the vertebrae attached. Some of these remains were not just skeletal. There was, like, almost, like, mummified. And, and he and his wife together carried it into the church. He told me that while they were digging, they, they unsealed a compartment inside of one of the towers, and there was this large room that was sealed, like the, the... It was just, it, it had collapsed or whatever. It was sealed. And they opened it up, and they went inside, and there was a giant, this very large person sitting at a table. And, and there were... There was a really large plate and an oversized chalice there, and, and he even had... He was eating oysters, and mussels, and clams that were still on the plate, and he was very large. I mean, these guys are, they're, they're... When I say large, they're 9 to 12 feet tall. That's how tall these guys are. And they were... It was remarkable. He was extremely well-preserved and, because apparently he had been almost, like, he- hermetically sealed in this thing. And so they, they took all the artifacts and the bones and, and put them into the church, and, and the next day they were all gone. I mean, this was the procedure. It was... They, these guys uncovered a lot of interesting stuff at those, at that, that one particular, um, that one particular excavation at the Church of Sant'Anastasia in Sardara, in Sardara. And he, he... They were filling the church up with so many artifacts that Giuseppe told me that he went over to the mayor, and he told the mayor, "Is there anywhere else that we can put these bones, these artifacts? Because we're running out of space in the church." And he was surprised at the mayor's response. The mayor looked at him and said, "Mind your own effing business. Put the artifacts in the church and shut your mouth." So, um, uh, these are the kind of stories I would hear all the time in Sardinia. I mean, I could go on, and on, and on. I talked to one guy that was, uh... Sai Virgilio was his name. He was 100 years old. Very, um, very interesting guy. And Sai had, uh, been on a site when he was a young man. He, he, he told me a, um, a couple of stories, but he told me that he was, he was, he was working in a vineyard one time, and they were excavating in this... Uh, they, they weren't excavating. They were, they were tilling the soil to plant a vineyard. And as they're tilling the soil, they start to dig up bones, and they realize these are very large skelet- skeletal remains. And, uh, they were, they found, like, 20 of them, and they were laying on top of each other in a crisscross pattern. And so as soon as they started to find these bones, the owner of the vineyard said, "Stop. Stop. I have to notify the authorities." So he notifies the authorities, and he came back to the workers and said, "You guys have to get out of here. The authorities are coming. You have to leave now." And Sai said that everyone left, but he hid in the bushes until everyone had left, and he went back to work in the field because he wanted... He, and he said, "I needed the money, and I wanted to actually get paid for the day's wage, so I went back, and I worked, and I kept tilling the field." And he said all of a sudden, uh, well, the o- the owner of the field came back, and he said, "What are you doing here? I told you to leave." And he said, "I needed the money, so I'm gonna keep working." And the guy said, "No, no, I'll pay you double. Just get out of here." And while they're talking, the government guys pull up, and they, they pull up in some, uh, various vans, and they come out, and they, they start taking pictures of all the bones. And they, they take pictures of the bones, of these skeletal, sk- skeletal remains that are laying in these cross configurations, and then they load them all into the vans. And then they went up into the nearby nuraghe. There was a, uh, a nuraghe there, one of these megalithic towers, and they were inside the nuraghe looking at something, taking pictures. And Sai said that they, they sealed up, like with cement, they sealed up this, this, um, tunnel, this, this something inside of it, and then they, and then they left. And I heard dozens of these kind of stories in Sardinia. Dozens. These people have no reason to lie to me. I mean, these are, most of these are old-timers. They... We didn't pay them. Um, they, the, the, they You know, they, they live out in the country. I don't know if you've ever been, ever been to Sardinia. It's, it's, it's, it's like going back in time in Italy. These are very simple people who live out in the country. But as I said earlier, the bones, these giants are being found with artifacts.

   4. JRJoe Rogan48:58

      Uh, sorry to interrupt, but I'm looking at a story about they're d- they're talking about finding skeletons there. They're calling them skeletons, they're calling them giants, but they're referring to statues, and they're talking about statues.

   5. TATimothy Alberino49:09

      Those are the giants of Mont'e Prama. Those are, um-

   6. JRJoe Rogan49:14

      Those differ from that?

   7. TATimothy Alberino49:15

      Those are just statues. Those are the giants of Mont'e Prama. Um-

   8. JRJoe Rogan49:18

      I mean, there's, I mean, there's news articles-

   9. TATimothy Alberino49:20

      Yeah

   10. JRJoe Rogan49:20

       ... this goes back to the '70s.

   11. TATimothy Alberino49:21

       Yeah, those are just statues. Yeah, those are in a museum there.

   12. JRJoe Rogan49:24

       But they call them skeletons is the only thing I was saying, so there's like a little bit of a-

   13. TATimothy Alberino49:27

       No, they're, they're, they're stone. They're in the museum.

   14. JRJoe Rogan49:30

       I know. There's a-

   15. TATimothy Alberino49:30

       They're about seven feet tall, I think.

   16. JRJoe Rogan49:32

       Right, they're giant skeletons.

   17. TATimothy Alberino49:32

       Um, some people wonder if those are actually, um-

   18. JRJoe Rogan49:35

       Uncovered skeletons. I saw another article here where it said, like, they found two giant skulls, but they're talking about the statues.

   19. TATimothy Alberino49:45

       Yeah, those, some people wonder if those statues actually represented the, you know, the, the, the anatomical proportions of the giants. I, I don't know. I don't know that that's the case. But yeah, that's about all you're gonna hear if you go through-

10. 49:59 – 56:39

    Separating myth from misidentification: megafauna vs. true anomalies

    1. JRJoe Rogan49:59

       It just seems insane that there's not a photo, something, of all these things, or that some wealthy crazy person didn't get ahold of someone and say, "Listen, I'll give you $10 million. Get me a hand. You know, I wanna put it in a glass case in my house."

    2. TATimothy Alberino50:19

       It does seem-

    3. JRJoe Rogan50:19

       'Cause we, we know that they've done that with Egyptian stuff.

    4. TATimothy Alberino50:21

       It's, yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan50:21

       Like, a lot of Egyptian artifacts-

    6. TATimothy Alberino50:23

       Yeah

    7. JRJoe Rogan50:23

       ... have been pilfered.

    8. TATimothy Alberino50:24

       Yep. Artifacts from-

    9. JRJoe Rogan50:25

       Yeah

    10. TATimothy Alberino50:25

        ... a lot of artifacts from Peru.

    11. JRJoe Rogan50:27

        Yes.

    12. TATimothy Alberino50:27

        Central and South America.

    13. JRJoe Rogan50:28

        Yeah, yeah.

    14. TATimothy Alberino50:29

        Yeah, there's a, there's a very robust black market for artifacts.

    15. JRJoe Rogan50:31

        Which is so wild. Like, who are these people that have these things?

    16. TATimothy Alberino50:34

        That's a good question. Well, I was told, in Sardinia, they told me that in some cases they, the, the bones were confiscated. Um, they were gathered up and thrown into, into vehicles and carted away. Um, Sai told me another story where he was digging a foundation for a house, he and, he and an associate, and they, they came upon a very large sarcophagus, and they pried it open. And he said there was a body of a very large person inside, and it had a black, it was wearing some sort of black fabric. And there were coins, uh, that, that were, uh, that were minted, uh, from, um, Antoninus Pius, the Roman emperor, from that time. And they reported, there was a local priest, and they told the priest that they found a body, right? Like, "We found a dead body. What do we do?" And so the priest came over, and he looked down in the pit. He said, "Give me the coins." They gave him the coins. He said, "Break the bones up and th- and, and distribute them in the foundation of the house."

    17. JRJoe Rogan51:33

        [laughs]

    18. TATimothy Alberino51:33

        I mean, this was, you know, the... If you went to Sardinia today, I think you'd, you, you would think to yourself, "Okay, yeah, I can see how... There's no one's taking pictures or anything over here." This is, like, going way back in time in I- in Italy, especially, um, especially back in the '40s, '50s, and '60s when most of these things happened. Now, the, the excavations at Santa Anastasia happened in the late '70s or early '80s, but all these other stories are coming from the, you know, '60s, '50s, '40s. So, um, I, I mean, it, there was just so many people who I talked to. You know, random people would tell me as I interviewed them that, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was digging in my basement one time and, you know, years ago, and, and, and I dug up a hand. It was, it was a hand, had five fingers, and, you know, it was, it was three times the size of my hand." And now, that's-

    19. JRJoe Rogan52:21

        Five fingers.

    20. TATimothy Alberino52:22

        Yeah. That's random. That could just be, you know, megafauna something. I don't know how many f- what a giant sloth hand looks like or whatever.

    21. JRJoe Rogan52:29

        Right.

    22. TATimothy Alberino52:29

        And let me say this. There is no question, none, no question that a lot of the accounts that you hear about giants, not the ones associated with coins and jewelry, but a lot of the accounts that you hear about giants and the skeletons of giants, they do have prosaic explanations. A lot of them do end up being megafauna bones, especially giant sloths and stuff like that. There was a case in Peru, actually, it was in Ecuador, this is referenced in the chronicles of Peru, that there's a place called Santa Elena, and it's the pen- it's a peninsula in, in Ecuador, and, um, there's various chroniclers who talk about this. And these are the chroniclers who chronicle the, the history of the conquest of Peru, you know, the, the Pizarro and the, and the conquistadors who defeated the Inca. And, and they say that, you know, there was a race of giants, that there was, giants came up... The natives told the conquistadors and, and the chroniclers that according to legend, giants came over the sea on large reed boats, and these giants were, were, they were very, very large, and they had, they had red hair, and, uh, some of them were naked and some of them were dressed in, in, in, um, very primitive clothing. And they landed on the shores of Santa Elena, one of the places they landed, and they began to terrorize the local population. The, the, the indigenous people hated them because they were, they were eating all of the food. I mean, they, they, they s- the natives said that they consumed 50 times, um, the, the amount of food as a, as a regular-sized person. And, and so the natives hated them. They said that the giants built these deep wells. They dug these really deep wells, which you could still see. The conquistadors said we could still see them today. They built these houses with very large blocks and huge beams of wood, which were still there when the conquistadors were writing about this in the, in the, uh, uh, 16th and, or 17th and 18th centuries. And, and according to legend, these giants, they were sodomites, and they didn't have any women with them, and they were basically struck down by God. And, um, the natives have that and other legends regarding giants being destroyed by God in various ways. But it turns out that Santa Elena Is w- it's one of the, the most, um, important sites for megafauna bones, and there's tons of megafauna, especially giant sloths. So you have lots of megafauna bones in Santa Elena, and I have no doubt that the, the, the, the, the natives and, um, the people living during that time, um, in the aftermath of the conquest of, of the Inca Empire thought that those were the bones of giants.

    23. JRJoe Rogan55:21

        Right, because there was no giant sloths alive at that time.

    24. TATimothy Alberino55:24

        Exactly. And, and, and in some of the accounts you can see where they're saying, "And the giants..." And, and the, you know, "We, we uncovered a giant that was, had a deformed body." And I thought, "Oh, that's probably a, that's probably a giant sloth or something, right?"

    25. JRJoe Rogan55:38

        Right.

    26. TATimothy Alberino55:38

        So yeah, there's a lot of that unquestionably, and you have to be very careful as a researcher. And in the beginning, I, when I, when I, I... This was years ago when I first started out researching this stuff. I made the mistake of, of, of just taking that story literally and believing, "Oh, yeah, they were digging up bones of giants in Santa Elena," until I realized that that is, like, one of the best places in the world to find megafauna bones. So obviously you have to concede to the facts of reality. They're digging up megafauna there. However, however, there are other stories that come from the chronicles in Peru where there's no way they're talking about megafauna. And these stories come from the same chroniclers who, from which we derive, from the same text from which we derive the history of the conquest of Peru, the same guys. The guys like Bernabe Cobo and Antonio de la Calancha and Pedro Cieza de León, all of the, you know, the famous, uh, chroniclers. And there's one case in particular I find very intriguing. There's lots

11. 56:39 – 1:04:04

    Peru’s chronicles: ‘extirpation of idolatry’ and burning alleged giant bodies

    1. TATimothy Alberino56:39

       of them. By the way, when I was in, I was, I lived in Peru for 10 years at some point, and, and then later on I went back to Peru and doing various investigations when I was looking into this, making documentaries about giants. And when I was in Peru, I was in Puno, uh, some years ago, probably back in 2015, 2016. I was in Puno, and I met with an archeologist in Puno. His name was Edmundo de la Vega, very well-known archeologist. And, um, I asked him, "Hey, are there any accounts of giants in the historical records here?" And he said, "Yeah, I think there's a, there's a couple accounts of giants." And I said, "Okay." He said, "I, I don't think there's many, but I think there's a couple." Okay. Well, the next morning he comes walking into my hotel in the lobby, and he's got a big smile on his face, and he hands me a disc. And he said, "I went... After we talked, I went into the archives," they have access to the digital archives, "and I did a word search to try and see if I could find some of these accounts of giants." He said, "I cannot believe how many [chuckles] references to giants there are in the chronicles." And he handed me the disc, and I, I, I opened the files, and indeed there were many. Now, some of them were in reference to Santa Elena, but some of them were much more remarkable. For example, I'll give you one example here. There was a, a Jesuit priest named Pablo José Arriaga who was going around Peru, and he wrote a book called The Extirpation of Idolatry in Peru. I think it was 1602. And he's, he's going around Peru with the, what are called w- which were called the visitadores, who were the... These were, um, officials. They were clergymen that were dispatched to Peru who were extirpating idolatry. These were the... They were very feared, these people, these visitadores, these official, um, idolatry hunters, basically, because they were brutal. And what they would do is they would go with the priests into the villages. They would find out, what are the natives worshiping? And then they would destroy it and then force convert the populate, the population. And they, they chronicled everything. They, they, everything they found because they had to. This was an official assignment, right? So they chronicle everything that they find. This village, they're going to this village, they're worshiping this. We, we, we broke it into pieces, or we burned it in the fire. And these are official records. And among these records, and this is, this comes from, as I said, Pablo José Arriaga, but also later on, Antonio de la Calancha, who is a Augu- Augustinian monk, um, it enlarges the story. He expands on the story using other documents, including, uh, um, including, um, Cala- um, um, Arriaga's version. And the story goes that Arriaga and the visitadores, they went into the village, and they were led. They inquired, "What are, what are you worshiping? Where are your gods?" And the Indigenous people of Peru, they, they worship huacas, and the huaca could be anything. It could be an idol. It could be a mountain. It could be a hill. It was just huacas. Even to this day, they call them huacas. And so they inquired, "Where are your huacas?" And they led them to the other side of the village where there was a large cave, and they go into the cave. And when they went in there, they, they record that there were many dead Gentiles, and among them were two giants dressed in qumbi, and they were enshrined. Now, that's very interesting.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

       Qumbi?

    3. TATimothy Alberino1:00:19

       Qumbi is a very fine fabric that is, um, it was e- it was used exclusively by the Inca nobility. In fact, it was illegal for any o- anyone else to wear qumbi. Only the Inca nobility could wear qumbi. It's a very fine fabric, so it's very ceremonial, and it belongs by law to the noble class. So these Indigenous people, they can't wear qumbi, but yet they dressed these two, uh, and, and it said that the bodies were, were well-preserved, almost like mummified. They dressed these two giants in qumbi And they were enshrined in this tomb. And so when they realized that they were worshiping these giants, these dead giants, and the natives told them that these were their ancestors, these were their progenitors, that's what they told the, uh, the visitadores of idolatry, they took the bodies out of the tomb, and they burned them in the village. Now, that's very interesting to me because you have two, um, bodies, not just skeletal remains, bodies of giants, decayed with time, but still quite well preserved, dressed in qumbi. This doesn't sound like a giant sloth to me. This doesn't sound like a mastodon. This is something else. And it corresponds to all the legends among the natives there in, in Peru regarding the existence of giants who were their progenitors. So those are just ... Those are some historical details, some historical accounts that, uh, I find very intriguing.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:01:58

       Well, there's so many of them. That's what's weird.

    5. TATimothy Alberino1:02:00

       Mm.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:02:00

       And it's, there's also this very bizarre desire that people have of destroying things from the past.

    7. TATimothy Alberino1:02:06

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:02:06

       Uh, we find that with, uh ... I mean, the, the Taliban did that, you know?

    9. TATimothy Alberino1:02:11

       That's right.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:02:11

        Uh, there's, there's a, a bunch of different in- incredible archeological sites that were destroyed by past civilizations. We, we, we just talked the other day about, um, the, the Kailasa Temple in India, about how they tried to destroy that for a couple years. They sent a thousand people, and they could barely put a dent in it. You know?

    11. TATimothy Alberino1:02:31

        Who was trying to destroy that?

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:02:32

        Oh, who was it, Jamie? Do we remember?

    13. SPSpeaker1:02:34

        Some guy that didn't like it. I don't know.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:02:36

        [laughs]

    15. TATimothy Alberino1:02:37

        [laughs]

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:37

        Some, some, uh-

    17. SPSpeaker1:02:39

        Warlord or general or something. I don't ... I'll find out

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:43

        ... who ... They, they came upon this temple that they, they didn't like, that someone else had built it, and someone else owned it, and someone else had constructed it.

    19. TATimothy Alberino1:02:50

        Yeah.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:50

        You, you know, the Kailasa Temple that was built entirely out of stone?

    21. TATimothy Alberino1:02:53

        Yeah, the one that was built, like, literally carved into the ground?

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:56

        Yeah, into the side of the mountain.

    23. TATimothy Alberino1:02:57

        Yeah.

    24. SPSpeaker1:02:57

        I don't know that name.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:58

        Emperor, uh, say that name. You could say it. You're really good with words.

    26. TATimothy Alberino1:03:01

        Mughal.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:03:03

        What's, what's his name?

    28. TATimothy Alberino1:03:04

        Looks like Mughal to me. I've never heard of it before.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:03:06

        And what's the sec- what's the second one? Aurangzeb?

    30. TATimothy Alberino1:03:09

        I don't know.
12. 1:04:04 – 1:11:09

    America’s mound stories and the Lincoln quote: evidence or misread metaphor?

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:04:04

       It's, um, there's ... The historical accounts in North America are, are interesting because there's actual newspaper stories from, God, what was it? Like, I believe it's the 1800s. What ... Do, do you know what I'm talking about?

    2. TATimothy Alberino1:04:20

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:04:20

       So-

    4. TATimothy Alberino1:04:20

       There are all kinds of newspaper stories about giants in the 1800s.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:04:22

       Newspaper stories about giant skeletons that have been discovered and excavated.

    6. TATimothy Alberino1:04:27

       Yes, from the mid-1800s to the early 1900s.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:04:30

       And somehow or another, they all relate to the Smithsonian.

    8. TATimothy Alberino1:04:34

       Most of them are associated with the mounds and the mound builders. There were thousands of mounds east of the Mississippi. I mean, uh, people don't realize how many of these mounds there were. And these are, you know, the monumental mounds and earthworks. Some of them still stand today. Not all of them are burial mounds. You have different kinds of mounds. Some of them are effigies. Some of them are platform mounds. But many of them are burial mounds, and many of them contain, contain very prosaic things, like the bones of native people. But some of them were said to have contained some very, very interesting artifacts, and among those artifacts were the bones of giants, according to the newspaper r- reports. Now-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:05:13

       See if you can find-

    10. SPSpeaker1:05:15

        I, I'm gonna look it up.

    11. TATimothy Alberino1:05:15

        There's a lot of them from the-

    12. SPSpeaker1:05:17

        It says-

    13. TATimothy Alberino1:05:17

        ... 1800s. Yeah, I mean, there's-

    14. SPSpeaker1:05:20

        ... giant over 10 feet high, 1872.

    15. TATimothy Alberino1:05:22

        Yes. Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:05:22

        And then-

    17. TATimothy Alberino1:05:22

        Especially in the, in the latter part of the 1800s.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:05:25

        How tall was it, Jamie?

    19. SPSpeaker1:05:26

        I mean, it's just, it's a-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:05:27

        Giant over 10 feet high, according to Louis and Richard Collins' History, History of Kentucky.

    21. TATimothy Alberino1:05:34

        Now, the, the contention is, of course, that, that these are wildly exaggerated, and that the newspapers were engaging in, in hyperbole, and that's true to some extent. I have no problem with that. I think there's-

    22. SPSpeaker1:05:47

        They did have hoaxes. I've brought this up a few times.

    23. TATimothy Alberino1:05:48

        Some of them were hoaxes.

    24. SPSpeaker1:05:49

        There's a whole lot of hoaxes that were-

    25. TATimothy Alberino1:05:50

        Sure, some of them were hoaxes. And they, and then, you know, these were ... The periodicals in the United States at the time were very competitive.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:05:56

        What is that photo? Is that bullshit, that far left photo?

    27. SPSpeaker1:05:58

        Yeah, that's why I-

    28. TATimothy Alberino1:05:59

        Now, now that far left one-

    29. SPSpeaker1:06:01

        I've, uh-

    30. TATimothy Alberino1:06:01

        ... that one was actually, that's a disputed one. Um, some people believe that that one is in fact, um, uh, was proven a hoax. Other people think there might be a conspiracy, that in fact it wasn't a hoax.
13. 1:11:09 – 1:18:40

    Younger Dryas cataclysm and Alaska’s ‘Boneyard’: megafauna, fire layers, impacts

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:11:09

       Okay. So there's this area of Ala- John's a miner, and, uh, he, Museum of Natural History. So he's a miner, and he bought this land in, um, Alaska, and they're doing gold mining. And they're blasting into the permafrost with hoses, and they have found an enormous amount of mammoths-

    2. TATimothy Alberino1:11:31

       Yeah

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:11:32

       ... um, cave bears, animals that weren't even supposed to be living in Alaska at the time, so now they have to, like, reformulate their idea of what the population of this, the, this, these lands were at this time. But also a layer of, like, dark carbon that indicates there's, there was some sort of an event. All of this is sub 10,000 years ago. So he's finding, I mean, he has warehouses.

    4. TATimothy Alberino1:11:58

       Wow.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:11:58

       And this is, like, fully d- go to the Boneyard Instagram, please. He, he has warehouses of this stuff that he's pulled out of the ground. He won't let anyone take it, because the Museum of Natural History has some of this stuff from the previous owners. They have tons of it, and they would not release it to him-

    6. TATimothy Alberino1:12:16

       Hmm

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:12:16

       ... even though it's his property. So this is, I mean, he's finding enormous mastodon skeletons, mammoth tusks.

    8. TATimothy Alberino1:12:25

       Wow.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:12:25

       I mean, they find tons of them, tons. I mean, he has warehouses. He built a scientific research facility there, and he's like, "People can come here and study it, but I'm not letting any..." Post Malone was there. Shout out to Post. Um, mastodon teeth and bones. He actually gave me this. This is, uh, a mammoth tooth that-

    10. TATimothy Alberino1:12:46

        Oh, that's very cool

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:12:46

        ... they take some of these things, and they, they carve artwork into them, which is neat.

    12. TATimothy Alberino1:12:50

        That is very cool.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:12:51

        The artwork is kind of fucked. It's kind of weird that they do that, 'cause it's-

    14. TATimothy Alberino1:12:54

        But this is a ma- this is-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:12:55

        Yes

    16. TATimothy Alberino1:12:55

        ... like, a petrified mastodon tooth?

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:12:57

        It's a molar. A, a molar, rather.

    18. TATimothy Alberino1:12:59

        Wow. That is really cool.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:13:01

        Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, so this is all from his property.

    20. TATimothy Alberino1:13:05

        Wow.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:13:05

        So, I mean-

    22. TATimothy Alberino1:13:06

        But why? Why is there such a distribution of, uh, megafauna bones there?

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:13:11

        His belief is that there was some sort of a mass extinction event that happened- ... whatever year it was. W- you know, that, that coincides with the Younger Dryas impact theory. And he, and, and when he-

    24. TATimothy Alberino1:13:24

        Circa 11,000 BC.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:13:24

        Yeah. And when he's had some of these things tested and dated, they do, they're, they're post, uh, they're, they're around this time. And he thinks that there was some sort of a mass extinction event, and the flooding l- led them all to be washed away into this one very particular area. Because it's a de- a deep concentration of these bones, too many that seem to have died around the same time, and all preserved. So it seems like, because they're preserved in the permafrost, that this is something that happened, was an enormous event. The bodies are washed down into this one area, and because of the landscape, 'cause of the contours of the land, they, they were, they're collected into this one area.

    26. TATimothy Alberino1:14:06

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:14:06

        And it's not a big place. I think it's four to six acres that he's pulling most of these things out of, and there's several other places that he's now finding things in as well.

    28. TATimothy Alberino1:14:16

        You know, what I find really fascinating are the, the specimens that they find of mammoth and mastodon that are frozen solid w- chewing food.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:14:25

        Yeah. With broken legs sometimes.

    30. TATimothy Alberino1:14:27

        Right, yeah. Or a broken hip, right.
14. 1:18:40 – 1:28:14

    Egypt’s timeline fights: erosion dating claims and underground structures

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:18:40

       Have you seen the work that, there's this Italian guy, I'll send you the article, Jamie. There's this, uh, Italian guy that is, uh, proposing that the, um, I'll send it to you, Jamie, that there's, uh, a way of measuring the erosion, uh, on the outside of the pyramids that he believes indicates they are at least 10,000 years older than we believe so far. I'll send this to you, Jamie. Here. Um, but this is, you know, obviously disputed, because it's-

    2. TATimothy Alberino1:19:16

       But they're 10,000 years older

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:19:18

       Super controversial, at least. He's, he's talking about the erosion on the granite, and that there's, by studying erosion and by studying the, uh, timeline of, uh, erosion, and this is something that, uh, Ben van Kerkwijk has talked about. When you look at the older, uh, non-updated versions of some of the sites in Egypt, where it's clear that there was original stone, and then there was stone that was built on top of that-

    4. TATimothy Alberino1:19:46

       There's an article that shows some better pictures and things.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:19:48

       Okay, here's, so here's the article. So the, the heading of the article, please. So it says, "Could the Great Pyramid be far older than we thought? A new study says yes." And if you go to it down there, what he's saying is... So this is from January of 2026. Go up a little bit. Right there. Make it bigger. "A paper released in January 2026, Italian engineer Alberto Donini presents an unconven- unconventional dating approach known as the relative erosion method, which he argues may challenge the long-accepted chronology placing the construction of the Pyramid of Khufu around 2560 BC. According to Donini's calculations, erosion patterns at the pyramid's base could suggest a construction date tens of thousands of years earlier, potentially as far back as the late Paleolithic period. The claim, if substantiated, would have far-reaching implications for the history of ancient Egypt and early civilization, yet it also raises immediate questions about methodology assumptions and how such results could be interpreted within archaeological science." Well, I don't think arch- archaeology is a science. I, I, I just, I think what archaeology is, is they're looking at stuff, and they're guessing, and they're using science-

    6. TATimothy Alberino1:20:58

       Right

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:20:58

       ... and then they're also, they have timelines that they establish that they're very reluctant to let go of.

    8. TATimothy Alberino1:21:03

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:21:04

       And we've seen this with the dating of Göbekli Tepe.

    10. TATimothy Alberino1:21:07

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:21:08

        We've seen this with the erosion around the, the Temple of the Sphinx. They're very reluctant.

    12. TATimothy Alberino1:21:14

        While simultaneously disregarding the ubiquitous testimony of our ancient antecedents, who say that their ancestors were far greater than them.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:21:24

        Look at this right here. "Other points yield far higher values. Several measurements suggest erosion equivalent to 20,000 to more than 40,000 years of exposure, while the ar- arithmetic mean of all 12 points produces a result of approximately 24,900 years before present, corresponding to roughly 22,900 BC." I mean, holy shit, if that's accurate.

    14. TATimothy Alberino1:21:50

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:21:51

        And then you have also, uh, Filippo Biondi's work-

    16. TATimothy Alberino1:21:54

        Mm-hmm

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:21:54

        ... where they're looking, the radio tomography below the pyramids, and they have these structures that go 1.2 kilometers down into the Earth.

    18. TATimothy Alberino1:22:02

        Yeah. Did you see my, uh, I did an interview on, um, uh, I made an appearance on Piers Morgan's show, and Piers had on, uh, Hawass Awass. And I didn't know that I was gonna be interacting with Hawass Awass. I'd known-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:22:17

        Zahi. Zahi.

    20. TATimothy Alberino1:22:17

        Or Za- sorry.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:22:18

        Zahi Hawass.

    22. TATimothy Alberino1:22:18

        Zahi Hawass. [laughs] The other way around. I didn't know that, uh, I was gonna be interacting with him. I was just told that they wanted me to come on and talk about pyramids and stuff. But then Piers-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:22:29

        Piers, Piers loves a good scramble.

    24. TATimothy Alberino1:22:30

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:22:31

        He, he loves-

    26. TATimothy Alberino1:22:31

        Yeah. [laughs]

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:22:32

        He loves a squabble.

    28. TATimothy Alberino1:22:32

        So, so he set me up, like, "Here's your opportunity to say whatever you want." You know, it was me, and Jimmy Corsetti, and some other people. "Here's your opportunity to ask Zahi whatever you want." And I'm thinking to myself, "I don't, I don't really have anything to ask this guy," but then it occurred to me. I actually have, me and my team are in possession of some state-of-the-art ground-penetrating radar technology that we used to great effect in Peru. And so I'm thinking about this discovery, this alleged, these alleged, uh, mega structures under the pyramids, and I'm thinking, "You know, it wouldn't be that difficult." You don't have to, you don't have to detect them all the way down. You just have to verify that there's something there, right? And so I posited this to Zahi, and, you know, I told him, "Look, I've got this equipment. Would you facilitate us coming down there?" And, and, and it's, it's, uh, it operates off of a drone platform. So you don't, you don't have to drag it. It's, it's, uh, fly- You can fly it around the, the pyramid. You don't have to touch the pyramid. You can just fly it around, in the vicinity of the pyramids and see if you can detect something. I mean, the, there's, there's no, there's, the, you know, you, you would do no injury to any sort of, any artifacts there. And he seemed like he was very open to the idea, you know, on camera, and said that, basically told Piers, "Get your people in contact with him so that, you know, give him my information so that I can reach out to him." Of course, that never happened. So it would not be that difficult to verify that, and that's why I'm wondering why... You don't have to dig.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:24:04

        Right. Why wouldn't you want as much exploration-

    30. TATimothy Alberino1:24:08

        Exactly
15. 1:28:14 – 1:48:37

    Peru’s megalithic ‘fingerprints’: Ollantaytambo, anti-seismic design, and ‘nubs’

    1. TATimothy Alberino1:28:14

       the lost knowledge from that age, to recover it, and to try and, try and, um, emulate their, their superior ancestors. That's what you see everywhere, everywhere around the world. Doesn't matter if you're in Egypt or if you're in Peru. You see the same sort of thing. Um, the same thing applies, by the way, for the megaliths in Peru. I don't know if you've ... Have you been to Peru?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:28:40

       No.

    3. TATimothy Alberino1:28:41

       Some of the most astounding megaliths, uh, that you'll see anywhere in the world. Um, uh, I referenced earlier the walls of Sacsayhuaman, absolutely phenomenal, uh, cyclopean architecture. And of course, the construction of those, of those walls is attributed to the Inca. Uh, so if you ask archaeologists in Peru who built Sacsayhuaman, who built Machu Picchu, who built Ollantaytambo, it's always gonna be the same answer: the Inca. The Inca built it. Now, the problem is there's no record of the Inca building those walls. And if you ask the, the, the ancient, uh, Quechua people, uh, if you ask the, actually the Quechua people, the, the Quechua people who continue in their ancient traditions, the ones who are there today, and they still wear their, um, their typical, uh, vestments and, and they still speak Quechua. If you talk to them and you ask them, "Who built the walls of Sacsayhuaman?" Specifically Sacsayhuaman, they'll tell you a race of giants. This goes back to those, you know, our progenitors, the giants. The giants built Sacsayhuaman. If you go up to, um, if you go up to Titi- Titicaca, Lake Titicaca, and you, you ask the Aymara people, "Who built Tiwanaku?" Which is on the other side of Lake Titicaca in Bolivia. "Who built those megalithic edifices?" The giants, our progenitors. That's what they'll tell you. So, and I don't necessarily think that giants built all this stuff. I don't necessarily think that at all. I just think that there's ... Everyone is acknowledging that, that something extraordinary happened in the past, that, that the, our antecedents were much more impressive than we've given them credit for. I mean, our antediluvian antecedents. And that, um, that in many cases, like you said, there's no inscriptions on megalithic stuff anywhere. You go to Machu Pu- Machu Picchu, and it's apparent that in Sacsayhuaman, Machu Picchu, Ollantaytambo, and other places in Peru, it's apparent that the Inca certainly built on top, and they took advantage of these megalithic foundations, right? Anyone would. I mean, if you're gonna build a edifice, you would, you would use the superior foundations here of massive stones, and you'd build on top. And you'd try to e- you'd try to emulate that style of building because it's anti-seismic, for one thing. So Machu Picchu, it's evident to me, and I think anybody who walks, uh, w- walks around that complex, you can see ... And, and we have to keep in mind that much of Machu Picchu today is a reconstruction. It's an archaeological reconstruction, except for the foundations. We have pictures from Hiram Bingham, original pictures in black and white of what Machu Picchu looked like when he discovered it accidentally. And- What's there? The megalithic foundations are there. That's what's there, the megalithic foundations. And, and you see, and the, and the Inca built on top of those foundations, and that's what a lot of the archeological reconstruction today reflects. So if you walk around in Machu Picchu, I remember, I've, I've been there several times, filming and doing different things, and, and I remember one time I was, I was with my colleague, Antoine P. Romble, and we had a, we had a, a guide with us, and, um, he was an older gentleman, very, very knowledgeable, and, um, he was one of their official guides at Machu Picchu. Uh, and we're walking around, and he's telling us different things about the Inca and how they did certain things, and certainly the Inca built a lot up there. There's no question about it. The Inca were impressive. No, I'm, I'm not taking anything away from the Inca. But if you, you look at some of the edifices at Machu Picchu, you can see these magnificent megalithic foundations, big stones, polygonal, fit together so tightly you couldn't pass a butter knife between the joints. And then you have on top what sometimes people describe as Inca slop on top, where it's like they kind of, they're kind of trying to match the style of below, but it's, it's not as precise. It's not as fine. And you can see the clear delineation, clear delineation between the megalithic, and then what the Inca are doing, and then also the archeological reconstruction. And I remember asking this guide of ours, we, I pointed across the courtyard to some, this beautiful, this exquisite polygonal found- foundational wall with just sort of crude Inca stuff on top, and I said, "Why are there two different styles here? Why do you see this, uh, this, these large megalithic blocks fit together so precisely, and then you have this other style?" And, you know, keeping in mind the archeological reconstruction, but there w- there was, there, there was enough of the site there that they could model what they did based on what the Inca had done, and he said, "Because they liked the way it looked." That was the answer. "They liked the way it looked." And I said, "You, you can't really believe that. I mean, you're not an idiot, right? They didn't do that because they liked the way it looked. The reason why there's an inferior mode of building on top of those megalith- megalithic foundations is because they didn't know how to do that. They did the best they could, and they were very good, right, at attempting to adopt the cyclopean style. They were good, the Inca. But the only reason you would do that, the only reason you would put inferior architecture on top of supe- superior foundations is 'cause you don't know how to do that."

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:34:03

       Yeah. Well, it's also the, uh, just the sheer size of these blocks. It, it just gives you so many questions because it's, it's not like you could recreate that with whatever the Inca had. That's what's confusing. In order to move those stones into position and then put them and construct them in a way that it appears like they've been melted into place-

    5. TATimothy Alberino1:34:29

       Yeah

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:34:29

       ... you're, you're, uh, like how?

    7. TATimothy Alberino1:34:32

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:34:32

       How are you moving them?

    9. TATimothy Alberino1:34:33

       You, you-

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:34:33

        How are you placing them?

    11. TATimothy Alberino1:34:34

        You, you-

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:34:34

        What do you use then?

    13. TATimothy Alberino1:34:34

        You should go to Ollantaytambo, okay? So you go to Ollantaytambo, which is in between Cusco and Machu Picchu. You have to go to Ollantaytambo to get on the train to go up to Machu Picchu. It's the only way to get there. And Ollantaytambo has some of the most exquisite megalithic architecture on Planet Earth. It is so beautiful the way that they were able to... And it, it's, it's large megalithic blocks, and there's two different styles represented there. You have the polygonal, like at the walls of Sacsayhuaman in Peru, and then you have the interlocking blocks, like at Tiwanaku. Both of those styles are there. And, and there's this one spot at, at Ollantaytambo that I love to take people to because you're going up the stairs, and, and the wall curves. As you're going up the stairs, the wall curves. Now, if you and I were building a wall today, even if we were, like, the best, we were the best masons in the world, and we're building a wall for, I don't know, for s- for some billionaire and his house, we would, we would interlock the blocks in the corner, like everyone does everywhere, right? Or if it's cement, you could take cement because it's, cement is pliable, and you could make whatever shape you want. But if it's blocks, you're gonna interlock the blocks into that corner or do something like that. You know what they did at Ollantaytambo? They, they curved the stone into the wall. They curved the stone. So they took the stone-

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:35:54

        Is there any images of that that we could look at right now?

    15. TATimothy Alberino1:35:55

        Yeah, you can pull up stones like that. Yeah, and, and they, they cut the stone so that it curved into the corner. Like, who would do that? That is so intricate. That is so difficult.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:36:06

        And by what technology?

    17. TATimothy Alberino1:36:08

        By what technology? But here's the interesting thing. You find that same, the same fingerprints of these builders all over the world. You find the same thing in, in Egypt. They curve stone. Some of those stones are curved into the corners, and other places where there's megalithic constructions. I mean, these guys, there is a, there is, like, a ubiquitous knowledge of masonry in the world. The fingerprint is everywhere, everywhere you go. And, uh, yeah, and it's interesting because one of the things I was, uh, trying to, trying to, to, to convince this, this guide of ours at Machu Picchu this one time I was, "Look, here's the problem. You guys come over to Machu Picchu-"

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:36:46

        So here it is.

    19. TATimothy Alberino1:36:47

        So yeah. Is that it? That's, that's Sacsayhuaman. Is that what you're talking about, though? No. The curved stone? No, I'm talking about a stone that's curved. You see that i- i- there, where it says Inca stonework? Um-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:36:57

        Uh, in the middle. Yeah, right there.

    21. TATimothy Alberino1:36:58

        Yeah, at Sacsayhuaman, they'll take a s- a large stone. That one looks like it's curved too in the wall, but that's not a very large stone. At Sacsayhuaman, they'll take a large stone, and they'll curve it into the wall. Um, i- it's, I don't see Sacsayhuaman in any of those. You have to type... I'm, I'm sorry, not Sacsayhuaman. Ollantaytambo. Ollantaytambo.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:37:15

        How do you spell it? [clears throat]

    23. TATimothy Alberino1:37:16

        O-L-L-A-N-T-

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:37:18

        [laughs]

    25. TATimothy Alberino1:37:18

        O-L-L-A-N-T-A-Y- Say it again? T-A-M-B-O.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:37:23

        O-L-L-

    27. TATimothy Alberino1:37:24

        O-L-L- Yeah ... A-N-T- Yeah, it's like, uh- A-Y- A-N-T ... A-Y- Y ... T-A-M-B-O

    28. SPSpeaker1:37:34

        I guess that-

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:37:34

        Whoa. [laughs]

    30. TATimothy Alberino1:37:35

        That's, uh, that's, uh, Ollantaytambo. And I'm looking for that curved, uh-
16. 1:48:37 – 2:12:22

    Peru’s other anomalies: Paracas skulls, subterranean living, and Nazca ‘alien’ mummies

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:48:37

       Yeah, of course. You know, there's also the, the weirdness of Peru, like the Nazca Lines. Like, what the, what the hell is all that about?

    2. TATimothy Alberino1:48:45

       I don't know. I don't know. That's a great mystery.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:48:47

       There's a lot of weirdness to Peru.

    4. TATimothy Alberino1:48:49

       There's a lot of weirdness in Peru.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:48:50

       And how about those, uh, the ancient tapestries that show those three-fingered, three-toed, big-headed people with big eyes, and it's ubiquitous, and these are 1,000 years old?

    6. TATimothy Alberino1:49:02

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:49:03

       Like-

    8. TATimothy Alberino1:49:03

       Yeah, you, uh, then you have the Paracas culture with the, those massive elongated skulls.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:49:08

       Right.

    10. TATimothy Alberino1:49:09

        And the, and the Paracas culture, by the way, you know, when people see these elongated skulls online, I, I was in, I've been to Paracas a lot. I've done a lot of research down there on the Paracas culture and other things. Made some interesting discoveries, by the way, with our drone, with our GPR unit. Um, but you see these images online, and you think that the, the Paracas people, their, their skulls are so large and elongated, you think they're, they're, these must have been big people, right? That's what it looks like. No. The, they were tiny. They were really little. They were bizarre. Their, their morph- the morphology of their body was different than ours. Um, you can-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:49:46

        Tiny with big heads?

    12. TATimothy Alberino1:49:47

        Yes. The Paracas people were very small, and they had a proclivity to live in In, underground. They had subterranean dwellings, and their eye sockets of some of these elongated skulls, the eye sockets are, like, 25% larger, the orbital socket. So they, big eyes, elongated skull, very diminutive people, in some cases living underground.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:50:07

        But y- I've heard people have theories about Neanderthals, that Neanderthals with larger eye sockets as well might have been able to see at night, like the way deer can and-

    14. TATimothy Alberino1:50:20

        Yep

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:50:21

        ... the way, you know, other animals that are nocturnal can see at night, that they have a different kind of eye structure. Obviously, we don't know what the eye structure was, but if you have a significantly larger eye socket-

    16. TATimothy Alberino1:50:34

        Gonna get more light

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:50:34

        ... a significantly larger eyeball-

    18. TATimothy Alberino1:50:36

        Mm-hmm

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:50:37

        ... it seem ... I mean, we know that nocturnal vision exists in cats and exists in a bunch of different animals, but the idea of it existing in primates, we've, you know, kind of dismissed that.

    20. TATimothy Alberino1:50:48

        Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, a bigger eye gathers more light.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:50:51

        Yeah.

    22. TATimothy Alberino1:50:51

        So it's a, it's, it's a nocturnal feature.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:50:54

        Tell me that we have no idea what the soft tissue structure of their eyes was like.

    24. TATimothy Alberino1:50:57

        No. No. Now, uh, granted, for all the skeptics out there, yes, many of the elongated skulls in Peru and other places around the world are the result of cranial deformation. So y- yes, they were deforming their skulls with head boarding, cradle head boarding, and binding and so forth. Um, there's evidence of that, and you can see the evidence when you're there if you know what you're looking for on the skulls. But I don't believe that that explains all of the elongated skulls, not just in Peru, other parts of the world, but especially in Peru. There are some examples of elongated skulls that, I mean, uh, j- look like a, look like a, a genetic, um, uh, alteration is the best way I can say it. So there's this, there's a ... And you c- you can pull this up, Jamie, if you can find it. There's a s- there's a mummy. I'm trying to think of the name of the, of the, um, museum where it's housed. There's a ... I think it's the San Marcos Museum in Lima. There's a mummy, one ... The first mummy that was discovered by Julio Tello. Julio Tello, or one of the first, if not the first. Julio Tello was the eminent archeologist that discovered the Paracas culture, and he's, like, their greatest archeologist in Peru, was a phenomenal archeologist, and he, he discovered all kinds of things about the Paracas culture. Uh, and he dug up this mummy, and it is the, it is, it is the most bizarre mummy I've ever seen in my life. It has a massive elongated skull, massive. And it-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:52:28

        We showed a few of those the other day when Kassie Coppersmith was on. We showed a few of these, uh, ones that don't have the sagittal suture.

    26. TATimothy Alberino1:52:35

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:52:36

        They're, they're weird.

    28. TATimothy Alberino1:52:36

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:52:36

        Like, the, just the actual structure of the skull is different.

    30. TATimothy Alberino1:52:40

        But this one has the skin on it, except for a part of the face is gone, but it's got the skin on it. You, so you can actually see what, what this skull looked like with the skin on it, and then the morphology of the body is just weird. I mean, I, I think it's in the museum of s- if I recall, the Museum of San Marcos in Lima. Um, so th- these are, they're very-
17. 2:12:22 – 2:40:08

    Enoch, Atlantis, and a ‘devolving’ humanity: a grand unifying narrative

    1. JRJoe Rogan2:12:22

       A lot of weird stuff in just ancient history in particular. What do you make of, like, things like Zep Tepi and the Sumerian Kings List, where you, you go back in time and you have these incredible ages of some of these rulers that ruled for thousands of years?

    2. TATimothy Alberino2:12:40

       Um, well, what's interest- what's really interesting is that if you overlay the Sumerian Kings List with the, with the list of patriarchs, pre-flood patriarchs in Genesis 5, it's like a one-to-one match. So, um, I'm not convinced that... I think that the, the, the Sumerian Kings List is, is, the, the ages is mythological. Um, I don't think that they were ruling for thousands and thousands of years. Um, uh, I, like I said, I see this very interesting overlay over the, over the Genesis 6 genealogy. These are the patriarchs from Adam to Noah, and specifically, I mean, these are the patriarchs who lived before the flood. The flood came in the time of Noah. And, you know, there's a lot of debate right now, especially online, and I think you've had people here on your show as well, that talk about the Sumerian story being the oldest story and being our, sort of the, the original story of the flood and, and of the antediluvian world, but I actually, I have a different view of that. I think actually the oldest story is the story of Enoch, is the Enochian story. I think that's the original story. And maybe some of this strangeness, maybe some of the bizarre things that we see, and the, the stories of the flood, and of the giants, and all of that, maybe something like The Book of Enoch is a, is a, actually an accurate account of affairs, of things that happened in the antediluvian world. And certainly the writers of the biblical narrative believed that. I mean, the writer of Genesis, and then obvi- in the New Testament you have references to, to what I call the Enochian tale. And so when you think about this, the antediluvian world, the cataclysm that, that destroyed it seemingly overnight, the great civilizations that existed back then, um, you see a, you see a series of, of parallels in all the stories, all the ancient stories, uh, whether it be the, the, the Sumerians, whether it be the, the ancient Egyptians, the, um, uh, the Hebrews, the Greeks, the Romans, there are parallels in certain details. Great civilizations inhabited the Earth, or at least a great civilization. That doesn't necessarily mean that, that they had the kind of technology that we have today. Uh, I think that's a mistake that some people make when they're thinking about the antediluvian world and a lost civilization. They think, "Well, that means that there were skyscrapers and, and automobiles and aircraft and things like that." That's not necessarily what it means. Um, and so I think it's very, very interesting that you have all of these parallels, a cataclysm, giants, um, you have, uh, a fratricidal war that's discussed, for example, in, in... You have the, the Vedas and, and some of the ancient Indian origin stories. And another component that you find everywhere is this idea that the gods descended to the Earth, commingled with the human species, progenerated a race of demigods, in many accounts giants, who then governed the Earth. And depending on what, uh, version of the story you're reading, they were either good guys or bad guys, uh, leading up to the cataclysm that destroyed everything. You know, in the biblical account, the Great Flood, and other accounts record various kinds of cataclysm, right, all over the world. So the question is, I think an intriguing question is, is it true? I mean, are these basic, um, constituents of these stories, is it true? And, and I happen to believe that, I happen to believe that, that The Book of Enoch is, the beginning of The Book of Enoch, the oldest portion of The Book of Enoch called The Book of the Watchers, is the earliest account of the antediluvian world. And I don't mean necessarily The Book of Enoch that we have today. I mean the tradition of Enoch. Was there a manuscript that Enoch wrote himself? Enoch was the seventh from Adam, so he's one of those individuals on the Sumerian kings list. I believe he corresponds to En- Enmerkaranki. I can't remember how to pronounce the name in, the Sumerian name. But again, you have this overlay with the pre-flood patriarchs. You have all of these details that correspond. Now we have evidence of cataclysm. We're finding evidence of cataclysm, right? We talked about the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis. So are some of the other details true as well? Were there giants? Were there beings who descended to the Earth in the antediluvian world? Did they copulate with human women? I mean, that's, that's essentially the story of Enoch. Enoch begins with, um... This is First Enoch. Enoch begins with a company of 200 Watchers, these beings that are designated as Watchers, and they are, uh, they're heavenly beings, and the, the, the Watcher designation is not exclusively extra-biblical. You find it in the Book of Daniel in a very interesting scene in which holy Watchers are judging Nebuchadnezzar, the Babylonian king, and they sentence him to a period of time of madness where he's given the mind of a beast and he's eating grass, and this is a judgment from the Watchers.

    3. JRJoe Rogan2:18:20

       [chuckles]

    4. TATimothy Alberino2:18:21

       He's eating grass like an animal, and his hair grows long, and he's basically like a beast out in the field.

    5. JRJoe Rogan2:18:26

       [laughs]

    6. TATimothy Alberino2:18:26

       The, the, the haughty king of Babylon humbled in that way. And so the Watcher designation is, you find it in Daniel. But then in The Book of Enoch, it's much more specific. These were 200 of these Watchers. These are non-human celestial entities. You could describe them as extraterrestrial entities. And they, they begin to lust after the daughters of men, and they desire to, uh, to progenerate families. They wanna have families.

    7. JRJoe Rogan2:19:01

       Do you think that this is a simplification of genetic engineering, and that this depiction of it is just, you know, like the game of telephone? You're telling the old story, uh, uh, through oral tradition for a long period of time bef- as it gets relayed over time post-flood, so you get this sort of distorted version of what-

    8. TATimothy Alberino2:19:24

       Mm

    9. JRJoe Rogan2:19:25

       ... the actual event was?

    10. TATimothy Alberino2:19:26

        I think it's possible there was genetic engineering involved. But-

    11. JRJoe Rogan2:19:29

        Because we certainly look different than everything else on the planet.

    12. TATimothy Alberino2:19:33

        Well, the, The Book of Enoch, the, the, at least the Hebrew account, both in the Book of Genesis, because the, there, there's a, there's a verse, Genesis 6, um, that says, "Now it came to pass that when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful, and they took wives of all whom they chose. There were giants, or Nephilim, in the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of men and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men of old, the men of renown." That's the reference to the, to the origin of giants and Nephilim in the Book of Genesis. And so i- in the Bible, you have these angelic beings, the sons of God, who are lusting. They're looking down at the daughters of men. They see that they're beautiful. The Book of Enoch is even more explicit. The Book of Enoch says that the, that the angels of heaven, the Watchers, lusted after the daughters of men, and they desired to progenerate families. So they descended, they descended to the Earth on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they bound themselves by a pact of mutual implications. In other words, "We're all in this together." They knew what they were about to do was gonna be a very grave sin, so they bind themselves with an oath. That's why Mount Hermon has been known since time immemorial as the Mountain of Oath. Then they descended into the plains, and they began to choose wives from among the daughters of men, uh, with whom to copulate. But first, these were maidens that they intended to marry, and there was a transaction that happened. Because in exchange for the, for the maidens' hands in marriage, the, their fathers were given technology. So the Watchers taught men the knowledge that they were already striving to learn. So there's ... And that's, and it, that's im- that's implied in the text. It's not explicit, but it's implied because the Watchers give technology and they give knowledge, which results in technology, and they get, in exchange, the maidens that they desire to marry. And then they, they copulate with them. They have sexual intercourse with them. The women conceive and give birth to giants, and then these giants begin to terrorize the Earth. You know, b- they're cannibalistic. They begin to devour men.

    13. JRJoe Rogan2:21:49

        So maybe a hybrid, sort of like a liger. You know how a liger is a-

    14. TATimothy Alberino2:21:55

        Yeah

    15. JRJoe Rogan2:21:55

        ... combination of a tiger and a lion-

    16. TATimothy Alberino2:21:57

        Yeah

    17. JRJoe Rogan2:21:57

        ... that's much larger?

    18. TATimothy Alberino2:21:58

        Very large.

    19. JRJoe Rogan2:21:59

        Yeah.

    20. TATimothy Alberino2:21:59

        But they can't reproduce.

    21. JRJoe Rogan2:22:00

        Right.

    22. TATimothy Alberino2:22:01

        Yeah. So the, so the result is you have these Watchers, yet their DNA mixed with the DNA of human women produces giants. And, and, you know, this story, by the way, is attested in the Dead Sea Scrolls, not just in the Bible, not just in the Book of Enoch. The Book of Enoch, of course, uh, fragments of it were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls. But you find, you find this story in, for example, you find it in The Book of Giants, The Book of Jubilees, the Genesis Apocryphon, and other texts as well. And so this is, this story, as bizarre as it is, is foundational to Hebrew cosmology. This is what the ancient Hebrews believed literally happened. Like, this was a his- in their minds, this was a historical event. You go back in time, you go into the antediluvian world, the world before the flood, what do they envision? They envision the Watchers, these gods living among men, copulating with human women, giants who were, who, who were cannibalistic. And then God decides to intervene because the giants are, there's, it's a very bad scene on planet Earth, and people begin to cry out, petition heaven. God decides to intervene, according to Enoch, and he's, he dispatches some angels, and they ... One of the things that they do is they set the giants against each other in a fratricidal war. So they make the giants go to war with each other. Now, when I envision this scenario, playing with the idea here that this actually happened, right, in the antediluvian world, I don't imagine big, dumb giants pu- you know, bopping each other over the heads with clubs. I imagine a technological war because what I see unfolding here, and I think, again, this is implicit in the Enochian story, is that the Watchers are essentially creating a dynasty. They are building an empire called the Empire of the Gods in the antediluvian world. The St- they are each portioning the Earth among themselves, and their hybrids are ruling each of these kingdoms. And then they go to war with each other. And again, I see this as a technological war because I don't believe that ... In the biblical account, angels never have wings, only in prophetic icon- iconography. But in the historical narrative of the Bible, angels are never depicted with wings. They are depicted as, uh, operating what, what I would describe as advanced aerospace vehicles, the chariots of God, the chariots of Yahweh, the chariots of fire, variously denominated. And I think that these are vehicles of conveyance. And, and so the Watchers, uh, when they descended to the Earth, I think they descended to the Earth in some kind of a vehicle, you know, like that, right? So they would have the knowledge, and there would be some technology. And so when these, when their offspring, the giants, w- went to war with each other in this fratricidal war, it would've been a technological war. Now, the reason why I say that is because you have the story of the Watchers as, as chronicled in the Book of Enoch. But then overlay the story of Atlantis, and you have the same story. So, uh, of course, the story of Atlantis comes to us from Plato's, uh, Timaeus and Critias dialogue, and he has Solon of Athens traveling to Egypt and, and i- and interfacing with the priests of Sais. And they tell him, you know, "You don't have any history that's hoary with age," and so forth. And then they begin to relate to him the story of Atlantis because they told him that his ancestors were remarkable people. They were the A- they, they were the Athenians, and only they could resist the warlike Atlanteans, right? And then we get the story of Atlantis. How does the story of Atlantis begin in, uh, in Plato's dialogue? Well, it begins with the gods apportioning the Earth amongst themselves. That's how it begins. So here are the gods dividing, divvying up the Earth. They're gonna create what I, again, describe as an empire of the gods. They're divvying up the Earth, and each one is gonna take an, a portion of the Earth for himself. Poseidon, Plato tells us, gets the area of Atlantis. And what does Poseidon do? Well, he becomes enamored of a human woman. Named Cleito. He takes her to wife. He copulates with her. She gives birth to 10 hybrid sons who become the kings of Atlantis, and I think there's reason to believe that they were giants in the myths. Uh, A- Atlas, for example, was chief among them. So you have these 10 hybrid sons ruling over Atlantis. Then what happens? Then you have... And presumably the other gods did the same thing in other parts of the world, right? They went out and, and married human women and gave birth to hybrid offspring, which is of course what happens in Greek mythology with a lot of these gods. They progenerate hybrid offspring. Then you have a war that breaks out. The Atlanteans become very warlike. They go on a, a campaign, and they, they're steamrolling everybody in their way until they get to the Athenians, and they're locked in this conflict. So I'm hoping people are picking up the parallels here with the Book of Enoch, with the s- with the story of Enoch. And in the midst of this conflict, what happens? Cataclysm ensues. Atlantis, but not just Atlantis. Atlantis, and the insinuation is everybody gets destroyed in a cataclysm that erupts suddenly, and Atlantis is consumed in, in the waves and, and is no more. Well, the whole point of the Egyptians when they're telling this story to Solon, one of the, one of the points that they're trying to convey to Solon is there have been many cataclysms, world-ending cataclysms, and every time a cataclysm happens, we have to start over like children, right? So the parallels between the Book of Enoch and... I think it, by the way, I think Atlantis, that Atlantis is an allegory of the antediluvian world in general. I think that there was something like an empire of the gods in the antediluvian world, and I personally believe that, um, that the biblical record is the, is the faithful account of what happened in the antediluvian world and with the addition of the Book of Enoch, um, because you cannot separate, you cannot separate the Enochian narrative, the Enochic traditions from the Bible.

    23. JRJoe Rogan2:28:43

        Well, Enoch is referenced in the Bible, and the only reason why the Book of Enoch is not in the canon of the Bible is because of some rabbis, right?

    24. TATimothy Alberino2:28:51

        Well, it's, it's complicated. So the Book of Enoch is a compilation of texts, and ranging from the fourth century BC to probably the first century AD. The tradition of Enoch, I think, is very old. I think the tradition of Enoch, this, the, that, that story I just outlined, that tradition of Enoch is the oldest story we have, the one upon which all the other stories are based. That's my personal opinion. Now, the actual Book of Enoch that we have today, the only reason we have it is because it was preserved in Ethiopia. That's the only reason we have the Book of Enoch today.

    25. JRJoe Rogan2:29:30

        The Ethiopian Bible.

    26. TATimothy Alberino2:29:31

        The Ethiopians preserved it, both the, the, uh, the, um, the Beta Israel Jews, very, very ancient Jewish community, and the Tawahedo Orthodox Christians.

    27. JRJoe Rogan2:29:41

        Do you think they have the Ark of the Covenant?

    28. TATimothy Alberino2:29:45

        I think, let's put it this way. I think Graham Hancock makes a very compelling case-

    29. JRJoe Rogan2:29:49

        Very

    30. TATimothy Alberino2:29:49

        ... that they do. Have you read his book, The Sign and the Seal?

Episode duration: 2:40:10