Joe Rogan Experience #2532 - Tim Robbins

1. 0:02 – 1:35

   Shawshank’s legacy and Stephen King’s unlikely range

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Joe Rogan podcast, check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music] All right. Jamie's very geeked out, I wanna let you know.

   2. TRTim Robbins0:15

      All right, man. Thanks so much.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      He didn't wanna say it. Shawshank is his all-time favorite movie.

   4. TRTim Robbins0:18

      Great.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      So he was kind of freaking out when he met you.

   6. TRTim Robbins0:19

      Thanks, Jamie.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      No problem.

   8. TRTim Robbins0:21

      Thank you.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      [laughs] I mean, it's all-time cl- I mean, you're, you're a part of one of, like, easily one of the greatest movies in the history of people.

   10. TRTim Robbins0:28

       I know. It's such a gift. I mean, uh, when people come up and say something about it, the, it, it usually is coming from a pretty deep place, you know? Like, it's, it shifts-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       Yeah. If you didn't like that movie, there's something... You should go to a doctor.

   12. TRTim Robbins0:40

       [laughs]

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       There's something... [laughs] You need medication. There's something wrong with you.

   14. TRTim Robbins0:43

       [laughs]

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       It's an amazing movie, and weird that it's a Stephen King movie, too. You know, he's... That guy is arguably one of the most prolific guys in the history of fiction.

   16. TRTim Robbins0:52

       Yeah, and in the same novella, there was, uh, Stand By Me too.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       Oh, wow.

   18. TRTim Robbins0:57

       Yeah, so.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       That's amazing. It's so weird, he writes so... His stu- his stuff varies so much. He had to do, like, a pseudonym at one point in time, remember?

   20. TRTim Robbins1:05

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       He did Richard Bachman.

   22. TRTim Robbins1:06

       Yeah, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       'Cause he was churning out so many books, they're like, "Hey, we can't keep selling these fucking Stephen King books."

   24. TRTim Robbins1:11

       [laughs]

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       And he's like, "Well, how about I come out with ano- another name? Like, give me a fake name."

   26. TRTim Robbins1:15

       [laughs]

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       And he just started killing it under fake names.

   28. TRTim Robbins1:17

       Just gotta keep writing. Gotta, gotta, gotta g- Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Yeah. Wild, wild guy.

   30. TRTim Robbins1:21

       Prolific, man.
2. 1:35 – 4:20

   King’s “off the rails” era, adaptations, and what film changes from books

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:35

      You know, during his early days... I'm, I'm, uh, uh, fascinated by his early days, 'cause his early days, he was off the rails with cocaine and alcohol, and the, some of the best shit that he made-

   2. TRTim Robbins1:46

      Really?

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:46

      ... he doesn't even remember read- writing it.

   4. TRTim Robbins1:48

      Wow.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:49

      I think Cuch- I think it's one of the books his wife took out of the garbage 'cause he threw it away. He's like, "Fuck this book."

   6. TRTim Robbins1:55

      Cujo?

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:55

      "This book sucks." It was W- it was Cujo or one of the classics.

   8. TRTim Robbins1:59

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:59

      And she was like, "Are you out of your fucking mind? Like, this is incredible."

   10. TRTim Robbins2:03

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:03

       And he was literally gonna throw it out, 'cause he was just out of his mind.

   12. TRTim Robbins2:06

       He wrote The Shining, right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:08

       Yeah, yeah.

   14. TRTim Robbins2:08

       So what, what-

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:09

       Carrie. Was it Carrie? Yeah. He threw Carrie away? Yeah. Crazy.

   16. TRTim Robbins2:12

       No way.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:13

       Crazy. [laughs]

   18. TRTim Robbins2:14

       Guy's crazy.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:15

       Crazy. [laughs]

   20. TRTim Robbins2:16

       Yeah, Shining was a big movie from... Uh, a, a big, big book for me. I, I was, you know, working in a 9 to 5 job and, you know, in between colleges, and it really, like, woke me up to-

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       Yeah

   22. TRTim Robbins2:27

       ... to all kinds of great possibilities in writing.

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:31

       Well, he hated the movie, which is so crazy, 'cause he felt like Jack Nicholson got insane too quickly.

   24. TRTim Robbins2:38

       Really?

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:39

       Yeah, 'cause in the book, you know, I read the book too, it's, it's very different. Similar, but it's more of a dr- drawn out process of him becoming possessed by-

   26. TRTim Robbins2:49

       Yeah

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:49

       ... the property.

   28. TRTim Robbins2:50

       A slower rollout.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       Yeah, he, like, Jack Nicholson was kind of kooky already, like, right away, which, you know, it's Jack Nicholson. Like, it's got-

   30. TRTim Robbins2:59

       [laughs]
3. 4:20 – 8:26

   From Silo to Turkey’s underground city: Derinkuyu and civilization “resets”

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:20

      Yeah. No, it was amazing. Amazing movie. Um, we were talking about your new show, Silo, which I j- not new. Um, it's been around for three seasons. I just started watching it, so it's new to me. I watched the first two episodes last night, and it was fucking great, and very original and interesting. And I was telling you before that it made me think of this place that they discovered fairly recently in Turkey called Derinkuyu, and Derinkuyu is this underground city that's massive. I think it, I think it could, I think it could hold 20,000 people.

   2. TRTim Robbins4:56

      Wow.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:57

      Something nutty like that.

   4. TRTim Robbins4:58

      I've seen pictures of it. Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:00

      Found completely by accident.

   6. TRTim Robbins5:01

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:02

      So some guy lost one of his chickens, went through a hole in the wall, and never came back.

   8. TRTim Robbins5:07

      [laughs]

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:07

      And he was trying to figure out where this fucking chicken went, so he broke down the wall to see what was going on, and then they realized that there's this insane underground city-

   10. TRTim Robbins5:17

       Oh, my God

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:18

       ... yeah, underneath this town in Turkey. And it's massive, just absolutely massive.

   12. TRTim Robbins5:24

       What-

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:24

       They have no idea who made it. There's no historical record of it. They have-

   14. TRTim Robbins5:27

       Any idea of when?

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:29

       Well, you know, they, they make guesses based on stuff they find there, but it's when you carbon date an object, right? So you could go visit the pyramids today, right? And you could leave behind some stuff, right?

   16. TRTim Robbins5:41

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:41

       And then everybody dies. Humanity dies out in a cataclysm, and then 100,000 years from now, people start looking through the, the piles of some of these sites, and the pyramids will probably still be there. And if there was any organic material left, like a book that you left or, you know, a leather bound book or some piece of wood, they could carbon date that.

   18. TRTim Robbins6:01

       Right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:01

       And then that would say the time that you were there, but it wouldn't say the time the, the actual structure was made.

   20. TRTim Robbins6:06

       Oh, right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:06

       So who knows how long people... Show me some more pictures of that, please. Well, I was looking up when it was made. Do they know? No, definitely don't know, 'cause they don't have any material to test. They, they didn't even know it existed. I mean, it was... When was it found? I feel like it was found in the 20th century

   22. TRTim Robbins6:21

       There must have been some kind of hostile force that they built it to-

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:25

       Exactly

   24. TRTim Robbins6:25

       ... escape from

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:26

       Or something going on outside, and not, not just hostile, but environmental. So 1963, rediscovered in 1963.

   26. TRTim Robbins6:37

       Wow.

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:39

       And, and that's- 100%, that's crazy ... is in his fucking house. Even today, only 10% of it is accessible to tourists. The rest is still being explored. That's how nuts it is. So how many people do they think it held at, when it was operational? I think it's something like 20,000 people, and that's how big this place is.

   28. TRTim Robbins6:58

       That's amazing.

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:59

       So they don't know when or why, and depending on how, around 20,000 people. Plus livestock. Plus livestock, and food stores.

   30. TRTim Robbins7:10

       Really? How'd they farm down there?
4. 8:26 – 9:18

   Silo as lockdown-era metaphor: censorship, compliance, and controlled society

   1. TRTim Robbins8:26

      Yeah, yeah. And here I was, you know, uh, in the middle of lockdown when I received those scripts.

   2. JRJoe Rogan8:32

      [laughs]

   3. TRTim Robbins8:32

      And I was like, "Oh, this is, this is actually talking about right now."

   4. JRJoe Rogan8:36

      Yeah.

   5. TRTim Robbins8:37

      This is about a controlled society where information is censored and where, um, compliance is necessary, and if you don't comply, you get sent out into the hostile environment. Uh, it was, uh, all too, uh, familiar metaphorically for me.

   6. JRJoe Rogan8:54

      Perfect timing.

   7. TRTim Robbins8:55

      Yeah, perfect timing.

   8. JRJoe Rogan8:56

      Because you gotta think that he must have written that before, right?

   9. TRTim Robbins8:59

      Yeah, many years ago.

   10. JRJoe Rogan9:00

       So it was just got lucky.

   11. TRTim Robbins9:02

       Yeah, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan9:03

       Perfect-

   13. TRTim Robbins9:03

       Here we go

   14. JRJoe Rogan9:04

       ... synchronicity.

   15. TRTim Robbins9:05

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan9:05

       Yeah. But it's-

   17. TRTim Robbins9:06

       I, I've been blessed that way in my career, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan9:08

       What do you think that's about? Do you ever wonder why you're so lucky? Obviously, you're very talented.

   19. TRTim Robbins9:14

       Thank you.

   20. JRJoe Rogan9:14

       But it's also, there's a lot of talented people that don't, nothing ever happens for them.

5. 9:18 – 10:49

   Career choices and the power of saying “no” (The Player and beyond)

   1. TRTim Robbins9:18

      I think it comes down to the ability to say no.

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:21

      Hmm.

   3. TRTim Robbins9:22

      Uh, at crucial times. When I was facing down either, you know, you know, when I remember when I first had my, uh, first child, and I was broke. And I got offered this comedy that was dumb, and it was a million bucks, and I needed the money. And I also had an opportunity, if I waited, uh, Robert Altman was trying to put together The Player.

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:49

      Ah.

   5. TRTim Robbins9:50

      So I threw caution to the wind and said, "No, I can't do that stupid comedy."

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:55

      What was the stupid comedy? Do you remember?

   7. TRTim Robbins9:57

      Uh, yeah. It was called Folks!

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:02

      [laughs]

   9. TRTim Robbins10:03

      I remember flying out to LA to meet on it, and, uh, um, with Alan Arkin, and, uh, he was the guy that was gonna play my father in this thing. And he said, "What the fuck are you doing this script for?" I said, "I need the money." He says, "I don't know. I'm not sure I wanna do this thing." Right? [laughs]

   10. JRJoe Rogan10:24

       [laughs]

   11. TRTim Robbins10:26

       I was... [laughs] I was like, "Thank you, Alan Arkin, for confirming what I was thinking."

   12. JRJoe Rogan10:30

       Wow.

   13. TRTim Robbins10:30

       Yeah. And so I said no, and, and then Player came through and shifted my whole career, so.

   14. JRJoe Rogan10:37

       Yeah, it's a matter of following that voice in your head, the instinct, the one that's telling you, "This is the right way to go."

   15. TRTim Robbins10:44

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan10:45

       Even though there's all sorts of influence that wanna lead you-

   17. TRTim Robbins10:48

       Yeah

   18. JRJoe Rogan10:48

       ... into the other direction.

6. 10:49 – 17:32

   “Oligarchical cinema,” CIA portrayals, and propaganda by reputation laundering

   1. TRTim Robbins10:49

      There was a period of time, uh, about 10, 15 years ago, when I got offered, in the course of seven months, I got c- offered to play the head of the CIA three times.

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:01

      [laughs] Did you ever wonder what that's all about?

   3. TRTim Robbins11:05

      N- I, I couldn't even imagine. I mean, uh, for some reason that was... I don't know. I have no idea. And then, a couple years after that, and again, you know, you're, you're l- looking down at y- your bills and your mortgages and stuff, and y- you need the money and just have to, um, "I don't wanna do that," right? Then a f- a few mon- a few years after that, a couple years after that, I got offered, in the course of a, a, a couple months, one to play the head of FIFA.

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:32

      Hmm.

   5. TRTim Robbins11:32

      Uh, which is a corrupt organization, but in the movie it was, you know, you know, they were the best people in the world, right? [laughs]

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:39

      [laughs] Oh, propaganda.

   7. TRTim Robbins11:40

      Not to mention that, uh, uh, the head of FIFA was a Brazilian, and I had, you know. But they were offering a ton of money, and basically it was FIFA producing a movie about th- itself.

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:49

      Oh, wow.

   9. TRTim Robbins11:49

      And, uh, after that I got a offer to play the head of a, the Chilean mine that was, uh, had just had this huge disaster, and turns out the mining company was, they were really nice people, you know, according to the script. [laughs]

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:03

       [laughs]

   11. TRTim Robbins12:04

       And it wasn't bad management or anything or, you know, that ha- that made the disaster happen. So I realized that, that the oligarchs are starting to make movie about themselves.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:15

       Yeah.

   13. TRTim Robbins12:15

       This k- oligarchical cinema. It's, it's like they produce movies that make themselves look really good.

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:20

       And you can get away with it.

   15. TRTim Robbins12:22

       Oh, hell yeah. Nobody knows. Nobody cares. And they, they think they can buy anybody, and they almost bought me, but I just, I have to, at times I just have to l- look, you know, face it down and say, "Listen, it, it's not right in my heart. I can't, I can't do it."

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:36

       Yeah. Well, that's great that you've got that North Star.

   17. TRTim Robbins12:39

       It's great that I had the luxury to do that.

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:41

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. TRTim Robbins12:41

       You know, oftentimes people don't have that luxury.

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:44

       Right, and one bad decision can pigeonhole you-

   21. TRTim Robbins12:47

       Right

   22. JRJoe Rogan12:47

       ... in a bad direction.

   23. TRTim Robbins12:48

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan12:48

       And then you'll never get the ones that you really want.

   25. TRTim Robbins12:50

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan12:51

       Yeah.

   27. TRTim Robbins12:51

       Right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan12:51

       These movies about you playing CIA head, did they ever get made?

   29. TRTim Robbins12:55

       Oh yeah, yeah. They were TV shows and movies, yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan12:59

       Was any of it any good?
7. 17:32 – 23:25

   Iraq War dissent, media retaliation, and the cost of speaking out

   1. TRTim Robbins17:32

      Well, some people get in trouble, people that come up out against it.

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:36

      Right.

   3. TRTim Robbins17:36

      And, and there's never any apologies. I, I, I did. I did. I, you know, I risked, you know, a lot to do it, and, uh, you know, wound up being right, but n- no one ever said, "Hey, you were right," you know, and, "We're sorry."

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:48

      This was during the Iraq War?

   5. TRTim Robbins17:49

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:49

      Um, what did you say?

   7. TRTim Robbins17:52

      I, uh, I, I w- I was one of maybe five people that were famous that came out against that. Well, um, went on, you know, on various television shows and made a couple speeches. I got my, uh, appearance at the Baseball Hall of Fame for Bull Durham 15th anniversary or something like canceled, uh, by the head of the, the Baseball Hall of Fame. It was a-

   8. JRJoe Rogan18:16

      Wow

   9. TRTim Robbins18:16

      ... real, uh, you know, you know, it was funny because I was, I was doing a show at the time and, uh, I heard about it, and I had, I was sort of writing a response, but, uh- It was already printed by the time I had my response, right? So I got... The next day, I got a bunch of, um, people contacting me. I hired a crisis PR person for the first time in my life, and, uh, wound up getting my letter to Dale Petroskey, the head of the Hall of Fame, out there with the, uh, with the press release. They, they were basically ambushed trying to, you know, to call me a traitor and all that stuff.

   10. JRJoe Rogan18:53

       Wow.

   11. TRTim Robbins18:53

       And, um, so I pushed back, and the, the publicist that I had hired was very smart. He said, "We're gonna send this to all the sports writers." And it was the sports writers that wrote the articles defending freedom of speech-

   12. JRJoe Rogan19:06

       Wow

   13. TRTim Robbins19:07

       ... at the time. So it was, um-

   14. JRJoe Rogan19:09

       What year was this? Is this-

   15. TRTim Robbins19:10

       That was-

   16. JRJoe Rogan19:10

       ... right after 9/11?

   17. TRTim Robbins19:12

       This was, uh, right when we were cooking up the war, 2003. So, um, and I remember, you know... And I also wrote a piece about that called Embedded, uh, that we've performed for the first time, uh, three weeks after Bush landed on that aircraft carrier with the mission accomplished thing.

   18. JRJoe Rogan19:31

       Mm.

   19. TRTim Robbins19:31

       So that wo- wound up playing at, uh, across the country. We toured it and played the New York Public Theater and played in London. But it was attacked when we went to New York. You know, they sent someone, uh, from... That wasn't a theater critic be- while we were still in previews and published this thing in, uh, I think it was the New Republic, uh, basically calling me a conspiracy theorist, a anti-Semite, all this stuff-

   20. JRJoe Rogan19:58

       Yeah, anti-Semite

   21. TRTim Robbins19:58

       ... to try to discredit this play that was playing at the Public Theater.

   22. JRJoe Rogan20:01

       How did they connect anti-Semite?

   23. TRTim Robbins20:03

       You know, the, it, that doesn't matter. That, that's what they throw out.

   24. JRJoe Rogan20:06

       Right, of course.

   25. TRTim Robbins20:07

       There was nothing anti-Semitic about the play.

   26. JRJoe Rogan20:08

       Of course.

   27. TRTim Robbins20:09

       It, it's, it was just a, it's, it's one of the things they use to, to discredit people.

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:14

       What did you know, um, about, like, so what made you compelled to come out against the war? Like-

   29. TRTim Robbins20:20

       I was reading foreign press. I was reading, uh, stuff from Europe and, um, what they were writing about the weapons of mass destruction, and that there wa- there, there wasn't ev- any evidence. And it wasn't being covered like it was, uh, here. It was more open, more-

   30. JRJoe Rogan20:36

       Mm
8. 23:25 – 33:13

   COVID-era polarization: deplatforming, “experts,” and the loss of dialogue

   1. TRTim Robbins23:25

      And so if that same thing kinda happened, I, I recognized that same smell, uh, when COVID was happening, when people came out, uh, and started asking questions and were deplatformed or, um, marginalized or canceled. And, uh, you know, I, I, I followed what you were going through with the, the ivermectin, which was-

   2. JRJoe Rogan23:47

      Yeah

   3. TRTim Robbins23:47

      ... uh, a drug that I had taken and, you know, I had lost my sense of smell, and a day later it was back. So I, I knew there was something going on with that and, and, you know, in an emergency, why not find whatever you can treat until your magic potion arrives, you know?

   4. JRJoe Rogan24:06

      It wasn't just that. It was like the completely disingenuous characterization of it as a veterinary drug, and calling it horse paste-

   5. TRTim Robbins24:14

      Yeah

   6. JRJoe Rogan24:15

      ... or horse dewormer, which is crazy.

   7. TRTim Robbins24:18

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan24:18

      It's crazy to w- because maybe that would've worked in, like, 1980, where people would have to go to the encyclopedia to find out what ivermectin really was. But when you're trying to do that in 2020, it's just too easy to look up, oh, look, it got a Nobel Prize for use in human beings.

   9. TRTim Robbins24:34

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan24:35

       Oh, it's great for yellow fever and dengue fever and river blindness, and oh, this has been used billions of times. Oh, it's one of the s- safest... Oh, wait, wait a minute. It's in the World Health Organization's essential medicines list.

   11. TRTim Robbins24:45

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan24:46

       This is crazy.

   13. TRTim Robbins24:46

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan24:47

       But yet on television, it's horse dewormer.

   15. TRTim Robbins24:49

       Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan24:49

       And even the Rolling Stone had an article where they showed people waiting in line. They said that people in Oklahoma were waiting in line at the emergency room with gunshot wounds 'cause they couldn't get in there because so many people were overdosing from ivermectin.

   17. TRTim Robbins25:03

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan25:03

       Which is just fake.

   19. TRTim Robbins25:05

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan25:06

       And it's in the Rolling Stone, and you're like, "What is going on?"

   21. TRTim Robbins25:09

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan25:10

       "This is, this is insane." Even the photograph was fake. The photograph showed people wearing winter coats, 'cause really the line was people waiting for a flu shot. That was the ac- the actual line.

   23. TRTim Robbins25:19

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan25:19

       And they were trying to say that these are people waiting in line to go to the emergency room for a gunshot wound. It's like, first of all, how many fucking people are getting shot in Oklahoma?

   25. TRTim Robbins25:27

       [laughs]

   26. JRJoe Rogan25:27

       Like, what are you... What's going on over there? Are you g- [laughs]

   27. TRTim Robbins25:29

       There was some-

   28. JRJoe Rogan25:29

       You guys having gun fights in the streets?

   29. TRTim Robbins25:31

       ... wild stuff going on at the time, you know, this w- this disinformation and the-

   30. JRJoe Rogan25:35

       Yeah
9. 33:13 – 49:04

   Theater as community and healing: kids post-lockdown and refusing passport checks

   1. TRTim Robbins33:13

      You were kicked out of the religion. It's, it's, uh, it, it's was a scary time, and still is scary. Uh, you know, we deal, uh, the Actors Gang, uh, my nonprofit in Los Angeles, we have education programs, and, um, we've been dealing with the, the ramifications of that lockdown for the last five years, you know? Those kids that are, you know, w- had two years robbed of them-

   2. JRJoe Rogan33:37

      Right

   3. TRTim Robbins33:37

      ... from socialization and education. And, uh-

   4. JRJoe Rogan33:40

      Imagine that was your senior year of high school, too.

   5. TRTim Robbins33:42

      Oh, my God. It, it, you know-

   6. JRJoe Rogan33:43

      Fuck

   7. TRTim Robbins33:43

      ... and we're, we're dealing with the, the, the, the aftereffects of that. And, uh, gratefully, uh, the kind of work we do b- brings them out again and, you know, gets them expressing emotions, making eye contact, uh, having experiences with other children, you know, and that are productive. And, you know, it, you... the good news is you can get out of that funk, but that was, it's, it was really scary to see those kids walk in to classes, uh, after that lockdown, 'cause they wouldn't make eye contact, looking at the floor, you know?

   8. JRJoe Rogan34:18

      Wow.

   9. TRTim Robbins34:18

      Kind of de-socialized and trauma- traumatized and, you know, it was really scary.

   10. JRJoe Rogan34:24

       Critical development time for them.

   11. TRTim Robbins34:26

       Absolutely. Absolutely.

   12. JRJoe Rogan34:27

       Yeah, and all of a sudden they're wearing... Uh, like, imagine being a toddler and all of a sudden everyone has a mask on, and-

   13. TRTim Robbins34:33

       Yeah, it's weird

   14. JRJoe Rogan34:33

       ... you, you don't wanna wear the mask. You, they keep trying to take it off, and people yell at them, "Put it back on." So it's like terror and anxiety and confusion. Also, you're not reading people's faces, which is, like, an important part of the developmental process. You get to know people, you read faces, you see how people talk. All of a sudden everyone's wearing a mask, everyone's robbing a bank. Like, this is crazy.

   15. TRTim Robbins34:54

       Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I, I've tried to approach it all with, uh, just a openness and a compassion for people that went through that, you know? I, I don't attach blame. I don't... You know, everyone... There was a pretty sophisticated propaganda machine that was happening, and I, I have great compassion for people that fell into that, and I, I, I, I, you know, I, I just want us to not do it again, you know?

   16. JRJoe Rogan35:23

       Yeah.

   17. TRTim Robbins35:23

       I want us to have the, uh, knowledge and the, um, the consciousness to not fall for that again.

   18. JRJoe Rogan35:31

       [lip smacks] Yeah, hopefully. It's just... It, it was very eye-opening that it was so easy to pull off, you know? That it was so easy to get people to just gang up like that. It was just... [sighs]

   19. TRTim Robbins35:45

       It said, it, it was, it said a lot about us-

   20. JRJoe Rogan35:48

       Yeah

   21. TRTim Robbins35:48

       ... unfortunately. And, um, you know, uh, I, I hold faith in humanity, but that was, uh, that was a, um, that was a tough one.

   22. JRJoe Rogan35:59

       I do as well, and I think it was a learning moment for a lot of people, whether they admit to it or not, whether they're public about it or not, 'cause I know a lot of people that just weren't public about their dissent, but they really didn't like any of it, and they just didn't really have a position to talk about it. And, you know, they wanted to keep their job, and wanted to keep their place in the community or whatever it was that they were trying to protect, and they kept their mouth shut. But you'd get a couple drinks in them, when they were alone, they would tell you.

   23. TRTim Robbins36:25

       Well, that begs the larger question is, you know, is it freedom of speech if y- when you freely speak, your job is threatened and-

   24. JRJoe Rogan36:33

       Right

   25. TRTim Robbins36:34

       ... your future is threatened? Is that... Are we living in a free society, you know?

   26. JRJoe Rogan36:39

       Right.

   27. TRTim Robbins36:40

       Um, it's, uh, a- and that, that's still, that's not just COVID, that's a, that's a lot of things. That's-

   28. JRJoe Rogan36:46

       It's a lot of things.

   29. TRTim Robbins36:47

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan36:47

       It's almost everything.
10. 49:04 – 1:06:43

    Prison rehabilitation through theater: emotions, improv, and reducing violence

    1. TRTim Robbins49:04

       What I started looking for, uh, after that was a way to, uh, be someone that was more involved with, uh, something that could affect change. In other words, um, I used my, uh, nonprofit. We started a prison program, uh, 20 years ago, and we see the, the change that happens. We, we, you know, we have people that go in and basically offer rehabilitation, uh, in the form of, uh, theater, and not doing plays or anything, but getting people to, uh, play emotions through characters that we introduce to them, and in doing so, uh, unlocking, uh, emotions that have been suppressed for many, many years. So in prison, there, there's one go-to emotion. It's, it's anger. It- that's your survival face. That's your mask on the yard. Y- you have to be a badass or you're gonna die. [clears throat] But, um, uh, sadness is compromising, fear is compromising, and happiness is genuinely n- not encouraged either. Uh, so we get these guys in a room, we get to introduce them to these stock characters from Commedia dell'arte, and then they have to express their emotions and make choices in, with their emotions in improv. And what they find is that if, uh, someone approaches them in anger in an improv, the p- facilitator will encourage a, a different emotion in response to anger than anger, right? And what they c- come to understand is that they don't have to respond to anger with anger. There are other choices, and in f- in fact, in real life, they can do that too, if they can do it in an improv. And so what happens is these people tap into long dormant emotions and start to understand that they are more than the worst act that got them there. Um, they, they, uh, tend to, um, create bonds across gang ties, racial lines. Uh, we, when we're putting together a group, we ask that rival gangs are in the same room with each other.

    2. JRJoe Rogan51:12

       Oh, wow.

    3. TRTim Robbins51:13

       And, um, what happens is these bonds are made through the sharing of emotion. Like, we get these guys into an improv where they're all putting a flower on a grave of someone and saying something under their breath about the person that's deceased. And then at some point, the facilitator will say, "Now, look at each other," and they're looking at each other with these eyes of sadness, and they realize they have a lot in common, you know, in that shared emotion. I had two guys come up to me, one Black guy, one white guy, uh, they said, "We've got to tell you what happened two weeks ago. We were... Our shot caller said, you know, we're gonna have, uh, a fight on the yard." And so, you know, the, never, you never question the shot caller, and so you know that it's gonna happen, you know? And so what they did was they found each other, these two guys, and they rolled around on the floor-

    4. JRJoe Rogan52:03

       [laughs]

    5. TRTim Robbins52:04

       ... acting like they were killing each other. [laughs]

    6. JRJoe Rogan52:09

       Wow. How convenient.

    7. TRTim Robbins52:11

       Yeah. [laughs] So, uh, it looked like they were participating, but they weren't hurting each other.

    8. JRJoe Rogan52:17

       Oh, wow.

    9. TRTim Robbins52:18

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan52:18

        Well, that's a good solution.

    11. TRTim Robbins52:21

        It's amazing what happens. When you experience something that, like that in person, when you see the transformation happen, and we see this in, in our schoolchildren as well, that's something that is i- i- i- deeply inspiring. You, you know that you've had something to do with some, some, a real change, right? Uh, whereas for years I was asked to, you know, attend fundraisers and, you know, various causes, and, uh, I, you know, it's, yeah, it's great that they're doing that, and it's great that they're raising money for these organizations that need it, but at the end of the day, you don't really feel like you did anything other than go to a dinner. And, uh, this was a way to get my hands dirty and really, you know, get in the struggle of it, and I found it to be so, um, so much more satisfying as far as the, whatever inclination I had towards activism was, was really fed by this as opposed to hopping from fundraiser to fundraiser.

    12. JRJoe Rogan53:24

        Hmm.

    13. TRTim Robbins53:25

        It just felt more real. It felt like something that I could take that experience, and then I could say to my group, "Let's expand. Let's get into more and more prisons." And now we're in 18 prisons in the state of California doing these programs.

    14. JRJoe Rogan53:38

        Did you have to develop a, a curriculum, like how, how you begin to reach out to these guys and how you set it up, like how you-

    15. TRTim Robbins53:47

        It took a couple years, uh, you know, kind of pilot program in one prison, uh, in Chino, in, uh, in Norco in, uh, Southern California. Um, w- trial and error, you know. Uh, what, what's the way to do it, what's the way not to do it. Uh, of course, you go through a training with the prison system of certain things to watch out for and, you know, um, you develop these lines where you say, you know, "We're here to do this, not to talk about your case." You know, there's all kinds of things you learn, how to avoid the distractions that will derail the program. But, uh, essentially, it's a very physical way of working, and it's also, uh, a, there is a lot of fun in it. So those two things together, um, allow the entry for these guys that are, you know, they're in the room because they want to be there, but it's weird stuff we're asking them to do.

    16. JRJoe Rogan54:43

        Right.

    17. TRTim Robbins54:43

        And, uh, if they can have a laugh about it, and then something about it shifts some kind of consciousness inside them, that, that, that means something to people. The, gotta remember, these people are, you know, the, when we started, there was only one other, uh, program in the, in the state of California that was offering rehabilitation through, uh, any theater. So, uh, there was a couple music programs and, uh, two, two theater programs, and now we've, we're able to lobby the state to get more funding for arts and corrections. Uh, because arts, art, uh, is a transformer, art, you know, it is something that can shift consciousness. I truly believe that. I've seen it with my own, uh, the w- the work that I've done. You know, I've seen how, uh, people can think in a different way after they see something in the theater-

    18. JRJoe Rogan55:35

        For sure

    19. TRTim Robbins55:36

        ... or in the movies or, you know, a, a good s- a good stand-up can do the same thing. You know how George Carlin used to shift my consciousness every new special, because he would always be challenging me.

    20. JRJoe Rogan55:47

        Sure. Yeah.

    21. TRTim Robbins55:47

        He w- he w- it wouldn't be like, "Yeah, hey, uh, hey, you know, we're all in the same club." It would be, "Yeah, we, you thought we were in the same club, but here's a, here's a little thought," and he, you realize he's talking right at one of your hypocrisies. And that was his genius, it was his ability to really tap into, we can be better.

    22. JRJoe Rogan56:07

        Right.

    23. TRTim Robbins56:07

        We can all be better.

    24. JRJoe Rogan56:09

        This episode is brought to you by Visible. It's officially summer, folks, and boy, what a summer we are having. It feels like one of those good old-fashioned summers where you just want to enjoy every moment and keep up with the action. Your best companion this summer, Visible Wireless. Visible gives you unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot, powered by Verizon, for just $25 a month. So you can make this the summer of fun and savings. Visible is more than just a wireless plan. It's unlimited wireless designed to always keep you connected with no contract to tie you down. Switch today at visible.com. Plans start at $25 a month, or get our premium Visible+ Pro plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code ROGAN. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. Yeah, there's been a few guys like that throughout history that really have figured out a way to embed humor into social commentary.

    25. TRTim Robbins57:13

        Yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan57:13

        George Carlin's probably the most known for it, but in... Do you know about Bill Hicks?

    27. TRTim Robbins57:18

        Yeah, for sure.

    28. JRJoe Rogan57:18

        Yeah. So he was probably, in my generation, he was the one that twisted people the most. It took, like, a lot of comics would watch him and go, "I, what am I doing? Why am I doing what I'm doing? This guy's doing something that's, like, so much more meaningful."

    29. TRTim Robbins57:31

        Yeah. Who was it in Apatow's documentary about Carlin? There was a comedian that said, uh, George Carlin was basically... In the, in the earliest part of the century, in the 1900s, phil- philosophers debating used to be a huge deal, right? Like, hundreds of people, thousands of people would come watch people debate-

    30. JRJoe Rogan57:53

        Mm-hmm
11. 1:06:43 – 1:29:36

    Art, entertainment, and what technology removed: video stores, vinyl, and discovery

    1. TRTim Robbins1:06:43

       Yeah. Um, amazing what they can do, but I do like the old school. I do like the kinda analog, uh, version of... 'Cause when, with the CGI and everything, it's all so sophisticated and so-

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:06:56

       Yeah

    3. TRTim Robbins1:06:56

       ... i- i- i- they can do anything now, and you almost want them not to be able to do everything.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:07:01

       Right.

    5. TRTim Robbins1:07:01

       You know?

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:07:02

       Oh, 100%.

    7. TRTim Robbins1:07:03

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:07:03

       Yeah.

    9. TRTim Robbins1:07:03

       Just want a little, little roughness around the edges. It really helps.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:07:07

        Well, there's also a thing about CGI where the part of your brain that l- is looking at it recognizes that this is not a real thing happening. Like, you, as good as it looks, there's something about it-

    11. TRTim Robbins1:07:18

        Yeah

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:07:19

        ... which is why, uh, a lot of the movie special effects guys, like the monster guys, like Rick Baker and along those co- lines, who did Star Wars and-

    13. TRTim Robbins1:07:27

        Yeah, yeah

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:07:27

        ... American Werewolf in London, that thing outside, the w- wolf that you see in the hallway.

    15. TRTim Robbins1:07:30

        Yeah, yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:07:31

        That, um, they wanted to make sure that it looked like a real thing, right? It was a physical object. So you had a phys... So in order to make it a physical object, and obviously CGI wasn't even available back then, but you see it, and you know it's a real thing. Whereas, like, later on, he did, they did The Wolfman, and Rick Baker did that as well, and there's a lot of CGI in there in the transformation scenes, and this part of it is just, like, your brain's like, "This isn't really happening."

    17. TRTim Robbins1:08:00

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:08:00

        "I don't like it."

    19. TRTim Robbins1:08:01

        Yeah, yeah. It's kinda the same way in music, too. Like, when they correct everything and make the auto-tune, you-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:08:08

        Yeah

    21. TRTim Robbins1:08:08

        ... m- great music has a little bit of mistake in it.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:08:11

        Yes.

    23. TRTim Robbins1:08:11

        You know? They, it has a little bit of h- like, human error.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:08:15

        Uh-huh.

    25. TRTim Robbins1:08:15

        Um, when you're hitting a chord on a guitar, there's, you know, there's a way to play it perfectly, but there's also a way to play it a little messed up.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:08:24

        Right.

    27. TRTim Robbins1:08:24

        And I kinda prefer the little bit messed up, you know?

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:08:27

        Like when Hendrix did The Star-Spangled Banner at Woodstock.

    29. TRTim Robbins1:08:30

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:08:31

        You know? There was something about it. It was like [singing]
12. 1:29:36 – 2:30:44

    Hollywood risk-aversion, AI threats to creators, and searching for meaning offline

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:29:36

       ... there's a lot of fear in Hollywood when it comes to AI, and replacing writers, and replacing actors, and just re- replacing this whole human-created thing of storytelling. And I think writers in particular are really terrified-

    2. TRTim Robbins1:29:52

       Mm

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:29:52

       ... because you could kind of, you know, with, with AI engines today, you could kind of take a few films, right? Like, you could kind of take like, uh, Bullet and Heat and a few, and then say, "Make me a John Wick meets Bullet meets Heat, and, uh, this is the protagonist. This is, this is what he's facing. This, these are the issues." And AI can churn it out in a few minutes

    4. TRTim Robbins1:30:19

       Mm

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:30:20

       And then you could say, uh, "Make it more like Quentin Tarantino would do it," and then it'll do that. It'll fix it in that way

    6. TRTim Robbins1:30:25

       That's crazy

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:30:26

       And then you say, "Okay, I want it more like Kubrick aspects to it. I want some weirdness to it, some, some real thought, some h- Easter eggs, some hidden aspects to it that people connect later," and it'll do that. It'll, it, it can do stuff instantaneously based on... And it's kind of stealing, right? But it's not, right? It's, it's making an original thing, but it's not, because it's inspired by everything else that's already been made. But that's kind of what people do, but not in the same way, and we don't do it that quick either. And so for writers, it's fucking terrifying

    8. TRTim Robbins1:31:01

       Yeah, and who do you sue? I mean, you can't sue AI

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:31:03

       Well, uh, artists are having a real problem with that

    10. TRTim Robbins1:31:06

        I have a real problem with it

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:31:07

        Yeah

    12. TRTim Robbins1:31:08

        I don't, I don't like it at all. But I also have faith in the individuality of the human, um, experience. And, uh, what I, what... You know, like I'm writing, uh, a, um, a, a companion piece to The Player, uh, right now, uh, and, you know, what would happen if that character was, uh, alive today.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:31:31

        Mm

    14. TRTim Robbins1:31:31

        And so, um, I have my perspective that only I'm gonna bring to that

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:31:36

        Right

    16. TRTim Robbins1:31:37

        I don't think you could plug that into an AI

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:31:38

        No. No, no, no

    18. TRTim Robbins1:31:39

        So I, I, I think talented people will figure out a way to be individual and apart from AI, and-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:31:46

        No doubt

    20. TRTim Robbins1:31:47

        But I, uh, but I also really don't like the, uh, the lack of protection that the guilds and the unions are offering their membership. Um, you know, there, there should've been a hard line, uh, for the actors union, and there wasn't. The hard line should've been, you know, "You cannot use this to replace actors"

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:32:09

        Right. Or writers

    22. TRTim Robbins1:32:11

        But, but there was compromise, and, uh, or writers, for the writers union. Uh, I don't think that that protection was held up at the last negotiations, and, uh, I think that we're gonna see the ramifications of that, you know, unfortunately

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:32:25

        Well, that's what's scary, is that, uh, ultimately, economics has a, a major impact on the decisions that they make

    24. TRTim Robbins1:32:33

        Yeah

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:32:34

        And it's way cheaper to do it that way. It's way cheaper to use AI to write things than screenwriters-

    26. TRTim Robbins1:32:40

        Right

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:32:40

        ... especially really talented screenwriters. Even though it's kind of drawing on the past creative work of really talented screenwriters-

    28. TRTim Robbins1:32:48

        Right

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:32:48

        ... they don't get compensated for it. I think ultimately people are going to want and appreciate something that's made by a human being, 'cause it's one of the thing... It's what we really like, not just be entertained. We really love the fact that someone made something

    30. TRTim Robbins1:33:01

        Well, my girlfriend, Reed Morano, has been advocating for, um, a seal to be put on- ... projects that are made without AI

Episode duration: 2:30:45