Joe Rogan Experience #2533 - Diana Pasulka

1. 0:00 – 0:02

   Intro

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:02 – 2:37

   Travis Walton’s abduction story and why it still convinces people

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music] Looking a lot like Travis Walton, girl.

   2. DPDiana Pasulka0:15

      [laughs]

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      You know who he is, right?

   4. DPDiana Pasulka0:17

      Of course I know who he is.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Of course you do.

   6. DPDiana Pasulka0:18

      Yeah, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      That's totally beautiful.

   8. DPDiana Pasulka0:19

      And I, I believe him.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      I do, too.

   10. DPDiana Pasulka0:21

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       I mean, he, he certainly seems believable. I- I'm... You know, people that tell the same story, uh, for decades and decades without any variation to it, it's hard. I mean, it's, you know, he- I don't know what happened, but all the people that were with him during the time, we're talking about, for people just listening now, we're talking about Travis Walton, who was a man who in the 1970s was a logger in Arizona, and he was, uh, allegedly, or according to him, abducted by aliens. [smacks lips] And, uh, the people that he was with saw him get hit by a beam of light. They freaked out, took off. They, they were driving away and they were like, "We gotta go back and get him. We gotta go back and get him." They turned around and went back and got him. Tried to get him. He was gone. The craft was gone. And, uh, he, uh, disappeared for five days, and then turned up and had this insane story.

   12. DPDiana Pasulka1:14

       Yeah, and then he's taken, uh, those tests, like, uh-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       Polygraph tests?

   14. DPDiana Pasulka1:19

       Yeah-

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Yeah

   16. DPDiana Pasulka1:19

       ... polygraph tests, like every year or something like that. Or he takes them regularly, and he always passes them.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       Well, so do the people that were with him.

   18. DPDiana Pasulka1:27

       Yeah, yeah. And they, and I've seen people, uh, interview the people that were with him even just recently, and they're like, "Well, whatever. Regardless of what I think about Travis as a person, yeah, that happened."

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       Yeah, one of the guys actually got in a fist fight with him the day of the, uh, abduction.

   20. DPDiana Pasulka1:43

       Hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       The guy did not like him.

   22. DPDiana Pasulka1:45

       [laughs]

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:45

       Like, they hated each other. And then, you know, they were young guys.

   24. DPDiana Pasulka1:49

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:49

       And then he had to testify, and he was like-

   26. DPDiana Pasulka1:53

       Yeah

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:53

       ... "It happened."

   28. DPDiana Pasulka1:53

       Yeah. Yeah, so-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:54

       Whatever it was

   30. DPDiana Pasulka1:55

       ... so yeah, I believe him. And his, his interpretation has changed a lot too through the years. In- not the, the facts. The facts are all the same. But his interpretation of them, like, you know, were they... 'Cause he thought they were pretty malign, like bad, right? He didn't enjoy being abducted, let's put it that way.
3. 2:37 – 4:37

   Government file releases and the J.D. Vance ‘demon’ framing

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:37

      So what's new in the, the world of all this?

   2. DPDiana Pasulka2:41

      Well, a lot, right?

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:42

      Yeah?

   4. DPDiana Pasulka2:43

      So the government has been releasing UFO files since May 2026, and this is something that a lot of people think is really important. And, you know, it's a form of disclosure. Uh, they're pushing, the group that is pushing this and happy that this is happening, they're also wanting the president to come out and say, "Yeah, we, there are these things." Um, I saw JD Vance on your show the other day. That was really interesting. He's, uh, of course I, I was interested in what he had to say. You kind of pushed back on his, what he was talking about in terms of calling... I don't want to use that word, the D word, right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:23

      Demons?

   6. DPDiana Pasulka3:23

      Yeah. [laughs]

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:24

      Why don't you want to use that word?

   8. DPDiana Pasulka3:25

      Because I must take this opportunity now to say that I am speaking on your podcast as a private individual, and I don't represent my university-

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:34

      Okay

   10. DPDiana Pasulka3:34

       ... talking about this, okay?

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:36

       [laughs]

   12. DPDiana Pasulka3:36

       So I mean, seriously, look what happened to him. So he basically, you know, was honest and said, "Yeah, I think that these are d- you know, demons." Well, you know, that was the headline, Joe. But when you actually listen to what he had to say, it was more complicated. And so I thought that, uh, he did a good job of, of, uh, talking about it with you. And, and if you want, we can talk about that, why he would think that. He is Catholic. Um, I'm Catholic. I do, history of Catholicism is part of what I do. Um, by the way, I'm a professor of religious studies at, uh, university. So, uh, yeah. So I've been, like, looking at that. I've been doing Catholic history my whole life. So I started do- looking into UFO experiences in 2012. And, um, yeah. So lots is new, or lots of stuff is new, okay?

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:28

       I didn't think that he had a very satisfying explanation as to why he would say, "I think they are demons."

   14. DPDiana Pasulka4:35

       Yeah, I can fill that out.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:36

       Okay.

4. 4:37 – 7:08

   Catholic categories for anomalies: natural, supernatural, and ‘preternatural’

   1. DPDiana Pasulka4:37

      Okay. Or fill that in. Um, all right. So he's coming from the perspective of Catholic theology. So in Catholic theology, there are generally, if you're looking at anomalous phenomena, which they do, supernatural anomalous phenomena, a lot of weird stuff happens within the history of religions, okay? So they have categories for understanding this stuff, and the categories include three different, um, categories, basically. Three different types of things. Supernatural things, which they think can't be explained and that they're like miracles. Um, you know, someone terminally ill prays for a saint intercession, and then they become healed, and doctors say, "We can't figure that out." That's supernatural. That's a miracle from God. Okay. Uh, that's one category. The other category is the natural. So things that are within nature, we can explain them. You know, everybody's knows what a natural kind of event is, hurricanes and things like that. Um, but there's an, there are events that cannot be explained but don't merit supernatural, the supernatural category. And those events can... By the way, there's a word for it, and they call it the preternatural, okay? The preternatural. And this has been a category that Catholics have had since at least the medieval time period, and because they're trying to figure out, you know, if- Let's just talk about UFOs. If UFOs are here now, most likely they've been around for a long time. And so whatever Catholics were seeing in the medieval time period, they were l- they had, they had categories for trying to understand it, just like we're trying to have, too. And so they're, they say, uh, the theologians at the time said, like Aquinas, Thomas Aquinas, he said, "Okay, the preternatural, these are events that happen, and they're either angelic," like, you know, good things like that, or demonic, which are fallen angels, or other things, 'cause God has created other things other than, you know, He's created the unseen and the seen, s- some things that we can't see. So in the preternatural, there happens to be experiences that people have with things that seem to be similar to what people talk about when they're talking about being abducted by UFOs, um, beings that, that appear and disappear, uh, beings that can s- seemingly read your mind. So this would be the theological category that Catholics have called the preternatural, and I think that's what, uh, J.D. Vance was trying to get at.

5. 7:08 – 9:38

   Are these ‘demons’? Pattern-matching, but not proof

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:08

      But why would you call that a demon?

   2. DPDiana Pasulka7:10

      Okay, so this is a good question, and that's where I'm gonna kind of like help-

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:14

      Okay

   4. DPDiana Pasulka7:15

      ... push back on you, and then you can push back on me again.

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:17

      [laughs]

   6. DPDiana Pasulka7:18

      All right. So the, the, the fact is, is that we don't know. Okay? We don't know. So there's analogous experiences that people have. Now that I've been doing this since 2012, a long time, uh, it is beyond a doubt that there's a pattern match between people who have these experiences and people who have demonic experiences. That's an analogy, but that doesn't prove that they're identical.

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:44

      When you say pattern match, what do you mean?

   8. DPDiana Pasulka7:45

      Yeah. Yeah, so I'm talking about what people actually experience. So when people have these experiences, what happens to them? They report things like things appearing and disappearing, luminous lights, okay? Lights showing up, aerial phenomena. They also report beings, beings that can somehow read their minds. They also report that sometimes they feel like these beings put thoughts in their minds, okay? These are all things that Catholics who know their history would say, "Wow, that sounds like this kind of situation." Um, does that mean it is that situation? There's no... No, we can't say that it is, and that's where your point is relevant. Your point is that, how do we know that they're demons? We don't know that they're demons. But it warrants an investigation, I think, into the similarities.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:38

      Okay, but when you think about demons, most people think about evil. They think about something that does horrible things to you, possession, you know, something that causes you to murder people or something that wants to murder you or something wants to steal your soul. That doesn't seem at all like what we're talking about with these UFO experiences. What it seems like is you're encountering something that has a superior intelligence, a superior technology, something that's very different, that communicates telepathically, but they don't seem to have vicious intentions. So I don't understand the distinction. I don't understand why you would call that a demon, unless you're just using that in this old-school term because the people that were experiencing this supposedly, or assumedly, uh, when we're talking about ancient times, and they didn't have words for it, and they didn't know what they were experiencing, they would call that a demon.

6. 9:38 – 12:15

   Skinwalker Ranch, the hitchhiker effect, and the ‘deceptive’ claim

   1. DPDiana Pasulka9:38

      Yeah. Okay, so this is a really good comment, and this is something that I'd agree with you, like, in before 2016. [laughs] I'd say, "Yeah, you're right."

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:48

      What changed?

   3. DPDiana Pasulka9:49

      Okay. The-- I did a lot of research, and, um, and what I found was that... Let's take an example 'cause examples are good. Uh, Skinwalker Ranch. So there are a lot of people who are associated with looking into UFOs who are well-known to UFO people, um, who work at Skinwalker Ranch. Okay. So I learned about Skinwalker Ranch pretty early on, 2013 or so, and I learned it from, about it from Gary, Gary Nolan. Um, all right. So he said... He was talking to me about it, and he said, "Yeah, a lot of my friends were working out there, and they want me to go out there and do some study of what's going on. There's anomalous phenomena. Um, it- they think it's, uh, associated with UFOs because UFOs show up," and this and that. And I said, "Oh, are you gonna go out there?" And he said, "No, I'm not going out there." And so I, I was like, "Well, okay, why?" And he said, "Because it's really negative, the things that happen to people. They h- they get something called the hitchhiker effect." And so the hitchhiker effect is when this scary stuff that's associated with, like, a haunted place, uh, follows you home. And-

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:01

      Right. I've heard of that before.

   5. DPDiana Pasulka11:02

      Yeah, the, the hitchhiker effect. Um, I think it's called the hitchhiker syndrome or something. And so I met a lot of people who had this happen to them who had had UFO experiences. So I would say that no, not all UFO experiences are like that, but enough of them are like [laughs] that for me not to ever have one. And also, to associate the preternatural, that's what I started to understand, that, well, the preternatural is still the best category that we have for looking at this, 'cause not all preternatural phenomena, even for Catholics, is negative, right? Some of it's actually really positive. But the thing, the problem is, is that human beings have a hard time figuring, figuring out. Like, you know, it could be deceptive. This is another thing where Gary Nolan comes in. Um, he was on Tucker Carlson, I don't know, like four years ago or something, and, um, he said... And I've talked to him about this, too. Tucker asked him about, "Well, what do these things, you know, what do they say?" And he goes, "Oh, they lie. They, they're deceptive. They s-" You know. And he's a guy who doesn't have a dog in the race in terms of religion. Like, he's not, you know, affiliated with any religion. So- You know, we-

7. 12:15 – 22:38

   Prophecy, dreams, and mental illness: how ‘deception’ could look

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:15

      Well, when he said they lie, like what specific examples does he have of them lying?

   2. DPDiana Pasulka12:19

      Okay, so listen, when we start to look at this type of situation with, you know, these experiences and so forth, what a Catholic would do, like what a, what a Catholic priest, say, would do, would be to identify if there, if there's deceit happening, to identify if there are negative effects and, you know, 'cause there's criteria for looking at the preternatural. And so a lot of things that happen are when you have, um, you know, these abductions, um, which some people view as positive, but some people don't. They don't like these abductions. Um, so yeah, they'll say things that aren't true, and-

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:01

      Like what?

   4. DPDiana Pasulka13:02

      Um, I don't know. They'll say, like... Okay, I'll take, I'll take an example. I'm not gonna out any experiences that I know, but I d- I know a lot. [laughs] So at this point, I've had, like, I don't know, about 1,000 people talk to me about their experiences. So one in particular regularly gets prophetic messages, some of which come true, most of which are not true, okay? That means when, when you have one or two prophetic messages given to you by an anomalous, you know, being or whatnot, and it comes true, you're willing maybe to believe it, right? "Oh, m- this is, you know, telling, this is telling me good information." Um, but s- then they start not to come true, and then if that person makes this public, uh, that person then is, you know, people associate them with falsehood and deceit, and that's not a positive thing.

   5. JRJoe Rogan14:01

      Okay, but have you taken into consideration that, that this person might be mentally ill?

   6. DPDiana Pasulka14:06

      Of course.

   7. JRJoe Rogan14:06

      Right.

   8. DPDiana Pasulka14:06

      Of course. Yeah, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan14:07

      So this, this idea that they're getting all of these, uh, like whatever it is, visions. I mean, how are they receiving this information? Are they receiving it, it, uh, telepathically? Like when you say-

   10. DPDiana Pasulka14:20

       Y-

   11. JRJoe Rogan14:20

       ... prophetic, like-

   12. DPDiana Pasulka14:21

       Yeah, yeah. So the... So there are different... So you asked me what kinds of people, like what they would say, right? When-

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:28

       But well, how... If the, if these things are deceiving them, so they have these prophetic visions, right? How is, how are these visions manifesting themselves in their mind?

   14. DPDiana Pasulka14:37

       Yeah, yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:38

       Is it coming as a voice? Are they seeing, uh, an event happen?

   16. DPDiana Pasulka14:42

       Okay. So there are, uh, there are a variety of ways in which people receive this ty- type of information, like prophetic information. Um, I would say that some people actually see things, and the beings, like, impart telepathically, like mind-to-mind transmission, something, "This is gonna happen," and then they believe it. Okay. This happens within, like, angel events, like Marian apparitions. It happens to, you know, people. It happens to people in abductions as well. And you know, I, I mean, that's what happens to them. They see things. They sometimes have visions in their dreams. So there's v- there are a variety of ways that people-

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:25

       Right, but-

   18. DPDiana Pasulka15:25

       ... can get this information

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:25

       ... let's stop right there.

   20. DPDiana Pasulka15:26

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:26

       Visions in their dreams could also just be dreams. Like, how can they dis- make a distinction between just dreams, like, "Oh, Godzilla was chasing me. I was on a skateboard. I ran into my cousin. We hid in his basement, and then I woke up." Like, that's just a dream. That's not a prophecy. And if they're having those dreams as well as these visionary dreams that they think are inspired by-

   22. DPDiana Pasulka15:49

       Yeah

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:49

       ... some entity, how are they making the distinction between the two of them if both of them exist at the same time in the same person's mind?

   24. DPDiana Pasulka15:57

       Yeah, yeah. So within the culture of-- Within our culture, we tend to put dreams in the same category. We say, "The dream about Godzilla is like, uh, you know, all dreams are the same," right? They're either bad dreams or good dreams that are neutral. Um, within-- There are other cultures that distinguish different types of dreams, and within the Western culture, there have been times when people have distinguished different types of dreams.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       Uh-huh.

   26. DPDiana Pasulka16:22

       Like say you take the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible, you have Joseph, right? Joseph is a guy who's gonna be big. Uh, he's a prophet, and he has dreams where he's able to, uh, tell the future, and he's able to distinguish between those dreams. So within certain cultures, even cultures today, like different religious cultures, they have distinctions. Uh, the Martu in Australia, uh, they have, you know, they, they talk about the dreamtime. So we're kind of a culture that puts all dreams in the same category, and granted, that's true. Uh, in terms of discussing whether or not people are mentally ill, Travis Walton's not mentally ill, right?

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       Right, but Travis Walton is not having prophecies.

   28. DPDiana Pasulka17:07

       No, I know.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:08

       Right?

   30. DPDiana Pasulka17:08

       But he's, he's one that doesn't, and there are others who do.
8. 22:38 – 26:51

   Pilot encounters and disappearances: Valentich and aviation fear

   1. JRJoe Rogan22:38

      Right.

   2. DPDiana Pasulka22:38

      So that's scary. Um, and if it's not, then it's definitely, um, something that we should take notice of, right? So if there, the, that's what's in our skies. And there have been reports of people, there was an Australian report of pilots who have passed away because of this type of thing, like they died and so forth. So-

   3. JRJoe Rogan22:59

      How so?

   4. DPDiana Pasulka23:00

      Wait. Um, I can't actually remember what it is, but it's a, it's a report of an Australian, uh, young guy who was, who encountered something in the sky, and, um, he was never found again. He was just, you know... What happened? I don't know. Uh, and there-

   5. JRJoe Rogan23:18

      So he, he disappeared in the sky?

   6. DPDiana Pasulka23:20

      Yeah. And there are-

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:21

      With a jet?

   8. DPDiana Pasulka23:23

      I don't know if he disappeared with the jet.

   9. JRJoe Rogan23:25

      I wish you knew more about this story. [laughs]

   10. DPDiana Pasulka23:26

       I know, I know. Maybe someone could get it up for us, and we can look at it.

   11. JRJoe Rogan23:30

       [laughs] Jamie's-

   12. DPDiana Pasulka23:30

       But it's a really famous-

   13. JRJoe Rogan23:32

       ... slap away at the keys

   14. DPDiana Pasulka23:32

       ... it's a really fam-

   15. JRJoe Rogan23:32

       Wait, wait.

   16. DPDiana Pasulka23:32

       Yeah, it's a really famous Australian report.

   17. JRJoe Rogan23:35

       Here it is. Uh, it's 1978. 20-year-old Australian pilot Frederick Valentich, Valentich?

   18. DPDiana Pasulka23:41

       I think it's Valentich.

   19. JRJoe Rogan23:43

       Valentich took off on a routine training flight over Bass Strait. Everything seemed normal until his radio transmissions began. Valentich reported a strange aircraft hovering above him with four bright lights and metallic surfaces moving at impossible speeds. Then came his final chilling words, "It's not an aircraft." After that, he vanished completely. His Cessna was never found despite extensive searches, and no trace of him was ever recovered. Radar had detected another object in the area but never interacted with other flights. To this day, no one knows if Valentich crashed, got lost, or encountered something far more mysterious. Even decades later, this remains one of aviation's most baffling disappearances, and the last words of a terrified pilot still haunt those who hear them. So there's one guy-

   20. DPDiana Pasulka24:29

       I don't know. You can go meet that one, Joe.

   21. JRJoe Rogan24:32

       Mm.

   22. DPDiana Pasulka24:32

       And you know what? I think that-

   23. JRJoe Rogan24:34

       Maybe he's, like, in a cool place right now.

   24. DPDiana Pasulka24:36

       All right

   25. JRJoe Rogan24:36

       ... just chilling, having a good time in another dimension, hanging out with these creatures, and they're explaining to him the future of the universe.

   26. DPDiana Pasulka24:44

       But, you know, that, the thing about what I do is I'm, I have a lot of information that people impart to me that is, that I can't actually talk about, right? And that, sadly, that happens to people in-

   27. JRJoe Rogan24:57

       Because they ask you not to?

   28. DPDiana Pasulka24:58

       Yeah. They say, "I need help with this," or, "This is my experience-

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:01

       Oh

   30. DPDiana Pasulka25:01

       ... and I don't want it public," and so forth. I mean, um-
9. 26:51 – 49:09

   Vallée, Keel, and the ‘superspectrum’: one phenomenon behind many ‘woo’ events

   1. JRJoe Rogan26:51

      Well, that's like the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I've always wondered, like, how much of that movie was... There's so much of that that was based on previous UFO encounters and, and even figures like Jacques Vallée.

   2. DPDiana Pasulka27:04

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan27:04

      Jacques Vallée plays an im-

   4. DPDiana Pasulka27:05

      Yeah

   5. JRJoe Rogan27:06

      ... h- the French scientist in that movie is based on Jacques Vallée.

   6. DPDiana Pasulka27:10

      Yes.

   7. JRJoe Rogan27:11

      And so, and there's scenes where these pilots show up that are from, like, World War I, you know, and they've been gone forever, and now they're back, and they haven't lost any time. A- a- I've always wondered, like, how much of this is based on stories and reports and folklore or whatever the government knew.

   8. DPDiana Pasulka27:31

      Yeah, I think that it's, it's based on stories and things that they, like Jacques has heard, and so forth. And by the way, Jacques thinks it's deceptive, too. So his, you know, his idea, he spent, of course, his whole life studying this, and he wrote a book called Messengers of Deception.

   9. JRJoe Rogan27:47

      Yeah. I think I read that one.

   10. DPDiana Pasulka27:49

       Yeah. So, you know, once you do-

   11. JRJoe Rogan27:51

       I read a bunch of his books

   12. DPDiana Pasulka27:52

       ... John Keel. John Keel, uh, doesn't have a good idea about these things at all. Um, thinks they're pretty nasty. Doesn't want them in... You know the Mothman Prophecy?

   13. JRJoe Rogan28:03

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DPDiana Pasulka28:03

       Yeah, so he wrote that, and that movie is based on his life. Um, and he's, he's down on it. He's a doomer with respect to aliens.

   15. JRJoe Rogan28:13

       How so? What is his perspective?

   16. DPDiana Pasulka28:15

       Okay, I'm gonna give it to you right now. All right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan28:17

       Okay.

   18. DPDiana Pasulka28:18

       Okay.

   19. JRJoe Rogan28:18

       Give it to me right now.

   20. DPDiana Pasulka28:19

       [laughs] All right. So he calls this, it, it reminds me of Catholicism in the sense that he has a category for it. It's called the sup- uh, basically the superspectrum, okay? And it's, it's here with us now, just like you said. It's, it's a- around us, but you and I can't see it, but some people do see it, and some people interact with it and have, like, it breaks into their reality. And for those people, he thinks that they're unlucky because all the things that happen to them, like men in black show up. Um, he thinks things like the, the beginning of all religions is basically about someone who had an interface with a parabeing, like one of these, uh, parahumans in the superspectrum. So it's kinda like an invisible reality all around us according to John Keel. Uh, John Keel was a, a pal of, of Jacques Vallée's. Uh, he's passed away, but his books are really amazing. And if you want to get an idea about the superspectrum and the phenomena, you should watch that movie of his called, uh, Mothman Prophecies. It's, it's really good.

   21. JRJoe Rogan29:23

       And so this superspectrum-

   22. DPDiana Pasulka29:26

       Yeah

   23. JRJoe Rogan29:26

       ... like, what, what does he think that is?

   24. DPDiana Pasulka29:28

       So he, he thinks that it's a, it's a s- like a space all around us. It's been here forever. It controls us. It controls humanity because it sends things. Like, he thinks UFOs are part of it. He thinks, uh, Virgin Mary apparitions are part of it. He thinks ghosts are part of it. So any kind of woo thing, um, is there in the superspectrum, and sometimes some people have the ability to see what's in the superspectrum. And they're, he thinks they're cursed. Now, he thinks angels are part of the superspectrum, so he doesn't make any kind of distinction between the good things in it and the bad things. He said they're all bad. If there's one that appears to be good, it's actually bad. So again, he started, you know, he was kinda like a S- a Charles Fort-type guy, so he started to get a lot of these in, you know, these, um, events, and he studied them and everything like that. And, uh, over years, he developed a, a theory that these were nasty things, and that they were, like, even if they appeared good, and that they, they be- they were at the beginning of all religions. All religions come from the superspectrum. Um, obviously not that part about how it's like Catholicism, but, you know, religions tend to have theological categories that talk about things like the superspectrum. So what Jacques talks about in his books, it sounds very similar to, you know, his control mechanism, and, uh, is very similar to John Keel's idea.

   25. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       Well, it seems like, just speculating, but it seems like we're dealing with a very limited framework that we operate in, that we as human beings operate... Do you wanna take this, Jamie? Do you need this? No, I don't. Okay. Um, that we operate in this world of the senses that we possess: sight, sound, feel, touch, all that, and, you know, smell. We, we have these senses for understanding what's around us, but only those, and it's not capable of detecting everything that is reality, everything that is the universe, everything that is from subatomic particles to whatever the fuck it is that we haven't even discovered yet, that's all around us all the time. And so if there is, uh, the potential for other realms or other dimensions, and these things exist in some sort of a space where they can interact and, and traverse in between these dimensions and interact with, with us w- at will whenever we can. We're kind of left in this speculation space where when people have these very novel and unique experiences, like Travis Walton, and then we are supposed to go, "Okay. Did that happen? It didn't happen to me, but is he telling the truth? Okay, maybe he is. If he is, well, let's see if he lies about other things. Well, he doesn't seem to lie. He's been around a long time." Travis has been around for a long time telling that story, like almost 50 years now, right? Like when was his experience?

   26. DPDiana Pasulka32:38

       I thought it... Yeah, a long time ago.

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:39

       It might be 50 years.

   28. DPDiana Pasulka32:39

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:40

       Um, you would think he would have a few other fibs.

   30. DPDiana Pasulka32:44

       I agree. I agree.
10. 49:09 – 51:50

    Why old UFO stories resemble modern ones—and the AI-as-interface hypothesis

    1. JRJoe Rogan49:09

       So J- Jacques' books, what's, what, what is interesting is these old stories 'cause the old stories w- that go back to 1700s and 1800s, they mirror these, uh, UFO encounters.

    2. DPDiana Pasulka49:22

       Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan49:23

       It's, it's-

    4. DPDiana Pasulka49:23

       That's what my work did. Yeah

    5. JRJoe Rogan49:25

       ... it's this very similar pattern, which is also strange because- If you think about human beings, the exponential increase in technological ability that we have just from the 1800s to today, far superior technology. But wouldn't you assume that UFOs would also have this exponential increase in their technological ability?

    6. DPDiana Pasulka49:51

       Yeah, definitely.

    7. JRJoe Rogan49:52

       But yet the stories seem very similar, which is weird, right?

    8. DPDiana Pasulka49:56

       Well-

    9. JRJoe Rogan49:56

       'Cause if it's the same kind of craft and the same kind of experiences and the same kind of... Like, wouldn't they get better at it? Like w- isn't there... Don't they have the same ability to improve?

    10. DPDiana Pasulka50:08

        They might be better at it. They might be better at it. We just are not good at ascertaining if they have gotten better at it. But so what if, and this is kind of what I've been exploring recently, what if the, you know, our growth in technology is pretty amazing. What if the only way they can actually interface with us in any super meaningful way that's not creepy, right? What if it's through AI? What if that... So if religion was a way for us to communicate with non-human intelligences that kind of evolved in different places, right? It, it's like a technology itself, right? Religion becomes these ways. You know, if you look around and you see... I noticed that you had some cool Buddhist statues out there. All right. So if you look around at religion, what is it that people in religion do? A lot of them pray in certain ways. Well, like, why are they doing that? What is prayer anyway? Um, some of the, uh... So you can see that there's something that they're trying to do. They're trying to interact, contact. There's like a contact with these. And so what if AI all of a sudden is a different form of contact? Um, and I'll give you a reason why I think this way or that I, I'm speculating about it. Um, when I started to ask the people who should know, like Lue Elizondo and, you know, the-- and before that, Tyler, and, you know, um, Hal Puthoff and, uh, people like that, "Tell me what best... If you were to describe what it is we're dealing with, what best is the description?" And they would always point me in the direction of science fiction, and they would say, "Read this, read that." And I was like, "Science fiction,

11. 51:50 – 54:30

    Bob Lazar, crash debris, and ‘truth hidden in a circle of confusion’

    1. DPDiana Pasulka51:50

       okay." And I'd read it, and it would inevitably point to like a technology that helps interface humans with it so that it's not us interfacing because perhaps you... Remember you talked about those faculties that, you know, human beings have these faculties for understanding reality, but we can't understand reality in its full reality-ness, right? We can't do that because we're constrained by the ways in which we perceive things. Those are the perceptual faculties.

    2. JRJoe Rogan52:18

       Mm-hmm.

    3. DPDiana Pasulka52:18

       Um, what if AI becomes a perceptual faculty for us, and we're able then to, you know, interact with it? So perhaps it has evolved, and it's helped us evolve too.

    4. JRJoe Rogan52:31

       Hmm.

    5. DPDiana Pasulka52:31

       So that's what I'm trying to say. That was a long answer to, to your comment.

    6. JRJoe Rogan52:35

       So perhaps AI is a bridge for helping us interact-

    7. DPDiana Pasulka52:40

       Yeah

    8. JRJoe Rogan52:40

       ... with these things?

    9. DPDiana Pasulka52:41

       Communicate.

    10. JRJoe Rogan52:43

        Okay. Um, so as far as what the government knows and then deception-

    11. DPDiana Pasulka52:49

        Yeah

    12. JRJoe Rogan52:50

        ... w- why, why do you think that they don't disclose all the information?

    13. DPDiana Pasulka53:02

        My personal opinion?

    14. JRJoe Rogan53:04

        Yeah.

    15. DPDiana Pasulka53:04

        [laughs] Okay, so this is nothing that I can point to. Of course I can't.

    16. JRJoe Rogan53:10

        Right.

    17. DPDiana Pasulka53:10

        You know, there's no source for it. Um, my personal opinion is because this is, uh, above government. It's not theirs to disclose. The government can't disclose something that's not theirs to disclose.

    18. JRJoe Rogan53:23

        And what, what do you mean by that?

    19. DPDiana Pasulka53:25

        Um, I mean that there's probably a group of people that, um, have this information or have parts of the information. I don't even know if one person has the whole story. It's super compartmentalized. But my intuition is that it's... Well, we know that there are parts of it that are so highly classified, right? We know that.

    20. JRJoe Rogan53:49

        Mm-hmm.

    21. DPDiana Pasulka53:50

        And so, um, yeah, it's like, you know, they call presidents short-timers and so forth. They're, they're not read in, quote-unquote, "to the, to the program."

    22. JRJoe Rogan54:01

        Right.

    23. DPDiana Pasulka54:02

        So I would... What if it's like it's been around for a long time and the people who know about it have been around for a long time too? What if that's the case? So after, after I, um, after I published American Cosmic in 2019, I met other people. So, you know, I met people who indicated to me th- that they just basically wanted me to not write anything else about this stuff. They just were like, "Why don't you just focus on what you've, you know, your,

12. 54:30 – 57:11

    Disinformation operations: Bennewitz, Doty, and government infighting

    1. DPDiana Pasulka54:31

       your Catholic stuff and just, like, don't, don't do this."

    2. JRJoe Rogan54:34

       This episode is brought to you by Visible. It's officially summer, folks, and boy, what a summer we are having. It feels like one of those good old-fashioned summers where you just wanna enjoy every moment and keep up with the action. Your best companion this summer, Visible Wireless. Visible gives you unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 a month, so you can make this the summer of fun and savings. Visible is more than just a wireless plan. It's unlimited wireless designed to always keep you connected with no contract to tie you down. Switch today at visible.com. Plans start at $25 a month, or get our premium Visible+ Pro plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code ROGAN. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details.

    3. DPDiana Pasulka55:29

       And, uh-

    4. JRJoe Rogan55:30

       Wh- who did that?

    5. DPDiana Pasulka55:31

       Yeah, yeah, some people that I had met. So, um, they- They're people that are associated with the government in the, in the fact that they're part of intelligence communities. And, you know, so I was interested in what they had to say. And to me, what-- They didn't tell me anything, Joe, so I'm not gonna tell any secrets or anything that I don't have them. But, um, they, they indicated to me that, yeah, this is, this is, like nobody's gonna know about this. So people like, uh... Yeah, so that's, that's what I-- That happened after American Cosmic. Part of that went into Encounters, but not all of it.

    6. JRJoe Rogan56:14

       So they, th- what did, how did they desc- uh, express this to you, that they don't think that you should be talking about this?

    7. DPDiana Pasulka56:21

       Well, they, they didn't express it that way. They just said that my time would be better spent looking into other aspects of, uh, religion.

    8. JRJoe Rogan56:31

       Did you say, "Why?"

    9. DPDiana Pasulka56:33

       Of course. I wanted to know, yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan56:34

        And what did they say to that?

    11. DPDiana Pasulka56:36

        Well, they didn't really say-- They didn't really answer that question. But I guess you could say that my experience with them was my answer. My experience with them was that, um, this was something that people weren't gonna know about, and that these secrets wouldn't be told.

    12. JRJoe Rogan56:58

        So you, like, they're e- essentially saying to you, "You're wasting your time."

    13. DPDiana Pasulka57:02

        Pretty much, yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan57:04

        "We're not gonna tell anybody. You're not gonna get any more information. The, what's out there is out there, and that's it."

    15. DPDiana Pasulka57:10

        Yeah, yeah.

13. 57:11 – 1:08:44

    Why disclosure stalls: amnesty, slush funds, and lack of oversight

    1. JRJoe Rogan57:11

       Hmm. What's your opinion, like, when... You know, one of the things I'm j- I would assume you saw The Age of Disclosure, the documentary?

    2. DPDiana Pasulka57:20

       Yeah, definitely.

    3. JRJoe Rogan57:21

       One of the things that I thought was really, uh, interesting and made sense in The Age of Disclosure was this thought that if there are these hidden programs, they, uh, have essentially misappropriated funds and lied to Congress in order to fund these things. And all these things are huge crimes. And if they don't have amnesty, they're never going to disclose. The, this is like Lue Elizondo talked about-

    4. DPDiana Pasulka57:52

       Yeah, yeah

    5. JRJoe Rogan57:52

       ... all these different people talked about this.

    6. DPDiana Pasulka57:53

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan57:53

       They said, like, the only way you're ever gonna get this information is by g- giving some sort of mass amnesty to all these people that were involved in these programs, so that they'd never have to worry about being prosecuted. My problem with that is when I hear something like that, and you're talking about misappropriation of funds, you're talking about lying to Congress, you're talking about enormous amounts of money that are involved in these programs. Where did that money go? And did that money all go to those programs or all those really ethical people involved, or did a bunch of people get rich bullshitting about this stuff? And is that why they're calling for amnesty, so that they don't have to worry about being prosecuted for stealing money? And that's a lot of this, you know, obfuscating, a lot of this confusion, a lot of this misinformation is because there's a lot of people that are in deep shit if this gets disclosed.

    8. DPDiana Pasulka58:48

       So basically, they're in deep shit if they, if the thing that gets disclosed is that they've been stealing money.

    9. JRJoe Rogan58:55

       Yeah. Well, listen, if you have complete total autonomy, you've, you get an enormous amount of money, and you're working on these programs, you, you know no one knows where this money's going. And we have a problem with that already, right? Like, we have a problem with the Pentagon never passes budgets. Where'd the money go? Mm-mm. Mm-mm. You know, that's, like, part of the issue. What is this, Jamie? Uh-

    10. SPSpeaker59:23

        It happened last week

    11. JRJoe Rogan59:23

        ... long-hidden UFO information at the center of Trump push d- uh, to free former officials. Former employees can now share information with AAO or the PERSS Task Force without fear of violating agreements. So this is new.

    12. SPSpeaker59:39

        Yes, it was last week.

    13. JRJoe Rogan59:40

        Oh, interesting.

    14. SPSpeaker59:42

        So I don't, no one's officially come forward as far as I know, but-

    15. JRJoe Rogan59:44

        Okay. That's, but look how it says that there. Scroll back up. It says, "Without violating agreements." That's not the same thing I'm talking about.

    16. SPSpeaker59:53

        It's not exactly, but just they have NDAs, and it's, uh, closer to the first step.

    17. JRJoe Rogan59:56

        Right. That's another issue.

    18. SPSpeaker59:58

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan59:58

        But it, what that doesn't d- it doesn't exonerate them from lying to Congress or misappropriate of, mis- misappropriating funds. That's part of the problem, is that if they have these programs that are hidden, and there's no congressional oversight, there's no... They don't have to be audited. If sh- In all these, in any government program that has no oversight, you're gonna have waste, and you're probably gonna have fraud. And you're probably gonna have a bunch of people that are, you know, essentially beyond reproach. They have so much power and no oversight at all. Like, "Put a little bit over here, put a little bit over there, a little bit of this, a little bit of that." Next thing you know, these people are wealthy for some reason that you can't explain. Like, look what's going on with Congress, with insider trading, where people that are making $170,000 a year are worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and no one can explain why.

    20. DPDiana Pasulka1:00:55

        Yeah, yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:00:57

        You got, you have to imagine that these people would also be tempted to do that if they were involved in these programs. So even if these programs are real, let's say it, y- let's say the research, the back engineering research costs a billion dollars. Make it, say it costs $3 billion. Where's that money going? Where's it all going? Where'd it go? You know, that's part of the problem with having no oversight.

    22. DPDiana Pasulka1:01:22

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:23

        No auditing-

    24. DPDiana Pasulka1:01:23

        Yeah

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:23

        ... no oversight-

    26. DPDiana Pasulka1:01:24

        Yeah

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:24

        ... and a bunch of people that have complete ability to hide anything they're doing, including what they do with the money.

    28. DPDiana Pasulka1:01:35

        Yeah, yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:36

        And so if they've been doing that for decades, who knows how much fraud is involved

    30. DPDiana Pasulka1:01:43

        Yeah, I agree
14. 1:08:44 – 1:18:53

    Recruiting ‘the best’: hidden labs, compartmentalization, and university pipelines

    1. DPDiana Pasulka1:08:44

       And so if I were to speculate about it, and let me just describe some of the things that, that come into my brain every once in a while when I'm thinking about it. I'm like, "Okay." Um, you know how Eric Weinstein talks about, like w- he would know the smart people, he would know the physicists who would be on this case, right?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:09:02

       Mm-hmm.

    3. DPDiana Pasulka1:09:02

       He would know these guys 'cause he knows physics. He's super intelligent, you know. Um, but I don't think he does know them, and part of the reason I say that is because this is in 2014 or so, so a long time ago. Um, when I'm... You know, when you're doing something for so long and you're in this community of people and you, you can't make stuff up. Like stuff happens and you're like, "That really happened." And one of the things that happened was that I got to see that there were some, you know, laboratories associated with the government that people couldn't get into. You know, it was like you couldn't go to those. And the people that worked there were the best of the best, like the, the laser people, the people who knew lasers and who, you know. They were better than anybody at Yale. They were better than anybody at Harvard or, or Stanford or anything like that. They were the best. Um, through knowing me, Gary got to go there, so I have a witness, you know. And so 'cause they were cultivating him. They were trying to figure out if he could actually help with, with figuring out what this was. So those things are things that I noted and I, you know, kept in the, my file in my brain, right? Okay, well, that's weird. Uh, there... I think about people like Harold Malmgren, right? So you know, he had been a, um, he's a person who is, uh, was an official to, advisor to a couple different presidents in the capacity of military, so super high level clearance and everything like that. He had been recruited. He was a physicist at Cornell. He'd been recruited when he was 27. So this happens, so people do get taken into these, I don't know what you'd call them, programs or whatnot, and they do work, and they have these clearances, and they're hidden just like, um, they're hidden. Sometimes they're given fake job titles and so forth so w- people wouldn't think. I see people online now saying, "Oh, that person doesn't have that clearance because they had this job." How do you know? Like seriously, how do you know that? Because the government is really good at hiding t- these kinds of things. So over the years, that was a long time ago when this happened to me, 2014, I started to form an idea, you know. And it wasn't just that, it was other types of, of things that I learned, that there's something going on for sure, and it is what they're saying, but maybe it's not... I don't know what they're re- reverse engineering, if it's anomalous, you know, from another planet or what it is. Uh, I do know that they're, they're doing something and they've been doing it, and they're probably gonna continue to do it, and that I don't think they're gonna share.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:11:51

       Yeah, and why would they, especially if it affects national defense-

    5. DPDiana Pasulka1:11:55

       And so-

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:11:55

       ... right, or national security

    7. DPDiana Pasulka1:11:55

       ... yeah, and so part of what's happening now, you know, with, uh, rich people getting into this and trying to get the people in the program to come out, 'cause that's what that looks like when David Grusch talks about that. I'm thinking they're just trying to get these people in the program to come out and to, you know, so they can, they can get the technology, right?

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:12:14

       Mm.

    9. DPDiana Pasulka1:12:14

       And that's n- I don't think that's gonna happen. I don't think that's gonna happen.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:12:18

        So what do you think happens? Do you think that they find very talented physicists that are in universities and they have these outreach programs where they look for these people that are very talented and they recruit them very early on?

    11. DPDiana Pasulka1:12:34

        I think so. I think that they get recruited really young. Uh, 27 is probably old to get recruited. Uh, I know-

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:12:40

        Which probably makes sense, get them as early as possible-

    13. DPDiana Pasulka1:12:44

        Yeah

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:12:44

        ... before they-

    15. DPDiana Pasulka1:12:44

        And get them into the program

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:12:45

        ... before they get involved in s- any sort of commercial venture-

    17. DPDiana Pasulka1:12:50

        That's right

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:12:50

        ... or any other company.

    19. DPDiana Pasulka1:12:51

        So in, um, in my s- second book that I've written about it called Encounters, there's a chapter called "The Children of the Invisibles" where I talk about, um, this potential speculative group, and it's total speculation.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:13:08

        Hmm. Have you heard Eric Weinstein's take on there's a particular upstate university, uh, upstate New York university that has a completely overqualified physics department that's also attached to a hedge fund that does Bernie Madoff type numbers that don't make any sense at all?

    21. DPDiana Pasulka1:13:26

        No, I didn't, I haven't seen that one.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:13:28

        Yeah. It's, he talks about it in this one particular university. He is keen on this might be something.

    23. DPDiana Pasulka1:13:37

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:13:37

        Because he's like, it doesn't make any sense that these-

    25. DPDiana Pasulka1:13:39

        Yeah. Yeah

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:13:40

        ... insanely talented physicists are all in this one place-

    27. DPDiana Pasulka1:13:43

        Yeah

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:13:43

        ... and no real research comes out of it.

    29. DPDiana Pasulka1:13:45

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:13:45

        No real, nothing gets done, but yet they're also attached to this hedge fund that does these insane numbers that don't make any sense at all.
15. 1:18:53 – 1:34:31

    Paperclip tech, Kenneth Arnold, and the ‘ours vs. not ours’ debate

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:18:53

       I get it, and I get that that's why if, say, the Roswell crash of 1947, if that is legit, and if they really did fly it out to Wright Air Force Base in, you know, two separate planes just in case one of them crashed, if that's really the, the case, and the, the, the, the lore is that Truman met them there, and that they disclosed that they have this craft and they have this material. You have so many different people that were at that crash site that have very similar stories.

    2. DPDiana Pasulka1:19:20

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:19:20

       And then you also have this, uh, you know, very shortly after that, you have technologies emerge.

    4. DPDiana Pasulka1:19:29

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:19:29

       You have fiber optics-

    6. DPDiana Pasulka1:19:30

       Yeah

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:19:30

       ... transistors.

    8. DPDiana Pasulka1:19:31

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:19:31

       A lot of, and weird shit that's attached to them in terms of, like, the provenance of, like, how those technologies were evolved and developed. There's some sketchy shit involved in that, and the allegation is that this is something that's been reverse engineered. And then, okay, well, if you, you don't want that getting to someone else.

    10. DPDiana Pasulka1:19:51

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:19:51

        Right?

    12. DPDiana Pasulka1:19:52

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:19:52

        If, if we are involved in conflicts with other nations, and we most certainly are, why would... You, you gotta keep that stuff secret. So I get that argument as well. And if so, if extraterrestrial technology is real, and that we do have crafts, and saying extraterrestrial is just a placeholder word for whatever it is-

    14. DPDiana Pasulka1:20:10

        Yeah

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:20:10

        ... interdimensional, whatever it is.

    16. DPDiana Pasulka1:20:12

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:20:12

        Some super advanced, non-human intelligence created technology. If it does exist, yeah, I would say from a national security perspective, you have, you've gotta keep that under wraps, especially if we don't truly understand it. If we don't truly understand it, and we're not really capable of making it. Yeah. I mean, the way L- Lazar describes the craft itself, it was like it was 3D printed. Well, there was no 3D printing in 1989, right? Well, there is now.

    18. DPDiana Pasulka1:20:43

        That we know of. That we know of.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:20:43

        Right, that we know of. But there is now. But that's the thing is this that we know of. There's only so far you can go with that, that line of thinking, is when you go back far enough, it doesn't work. So, like you go back to 1947. 1947, you're dealing with propeller planes. Okay, propeller planes and then also novel propulsion systems that can inst- instantaneously travel from one place to another. You know, they can go... Like what happened with the Tic Tac-

    20. DPDiana Pasulka1:21:19

        Yeah

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:21:19

        ... where, where they have it on radar going from 50,000 feet down to sea level in less than a second. So that's, that's technology that we had in 2004? That doesn't seem likely, right? And it, it d- it might be the case, but then you go far enough back to like, um, like the, the, the c- What, what was the guy's name? Kenneth Arnold.

    22. DPDiana Pasulka1:21:47

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:21:48

        The, the, those sightings-

    24. DPDiana Pasulka1:21:49

        Yeah

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:21:49

        ... which was what, what?

    26. DPDiana Pasulka1:21:50

        '47, yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:21:51

        '47?

    28. DPDiana Pasulka1:21:51

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:21:51

        Okay. Well that's, there's no way.

    30. DPDiana Pasulka1:21:53

        Same, like a couple months, like-
16. 1:34:31 – 1:46:25

    Reverse engineering as psychological warfare: ‘tell them it exists’ to make it real

    1. DPDiana Pasulka1:34:31

       Okay. So about reverse engineering stuff, like how does this work?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:34:35

       Right.

    3. DPDiana Pasulka1:34:35

       All right. So one of the things that I came to, like, understand was that, um, a couple of people told me about this, and it was nothing that they intended to tell me, by the way, but I asked. So, you know, Tyler was, was doing this reverse engineering type of thing. He was trying to find people to help him with, with this. And he would have what he thought were, were alleged UFO debris that he had found at various places like in New Mexico and so forth. And then what he had to do was he had to get together a group of engineers that could actually reverse engineer it, and he would tell them-- He wouldn't say, "This is a UFO," or, "This is, you know, something found in the desert." No, no. He would say, "This is China's," or, "This is Russia's, and we need, in order to keep our, you know, dominance or whatnot, we need to get this reverse engineered pronto." And that this lie would then motivate these guys, okay? And that they would reverse engineer this, and he would come up with something. Okay? So later on, I would listen to Hal, and Hal would give these, these talks. Hal Puthoff, by the way, who's, who's one of the people that is interested in UFOs and knows a lot about them. And so he gave this talk at the inaugural SOL Conference, and I was there. Um, and so I was listening to him, and to me, it sounded like what he was saying was exactly what Tyler was saying. That he was saying, "We have this, you know, but we don't actually know how to do this, how to back engineer this, so we're gonna give it to this talented group of people, and we're gonna tell them that this was already made, but a, a non-ally, like an enemy, had it." So basically, by telling them this, they would then, like, in a sense, do kind of like a, a trick on their minds, and they would actually reverse engineer it. They would reverse engineer something that he said already existed. So in a sense, it was like, um, not only working with time in a weird way or like, kind of like, you know, projecting what was gonna be in the future, telling them it already had been done.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:36:34

       Hmm.

    5. DPDiana Pasulka1:36:35

       So that made me think this is, like, the propaganda that I'm talking about and that you just started to talk about. Like, if we could then, on a mass scale, tell people that we have something or this is the case, maybe there would be a critical, like, mental construct, and people would actually d- do something or rise to the occasion or something like that. That could have been propaganda for the space race, right? That could have been, like, the moon landing stuff. Like, you know, uh, I'm not saying that didn't happen, by the way. I'm saying that, you know, part of it was a way to get Americans to win the space race. We had to already believe that we won it, right? In order to create this stuff, we already have to believe that someone else created it. It's like the five-minute mile.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:37:22

       Mm-hmm.

    7. DPDiana Pasulka1:37:23

       You see what I'm saying? So-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:37:24

       Four-minute, right?

    9. DPDiana Pasulka1:37:25

       Yeah. That f- why-- Maybe it's a five-minute to me. [laughs]

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:37:29

        [laughs]

    11. DPDiana Pasulka1:37:29

        The women's five-minute mile, right? No, the four-minute mile. That's right. So we already had to believe that it had been done in order to do it.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:37:37

        Right. Because once someone broke it, then a bunch of people broke it.

    13. DPDiana Pasulka1:37:41

        Yeah, yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:37:42

        Yeah.

    15. DPDiana Pasulka1:37:42

        That's right. So, so-- Oh, and then I was asked by people who are, um, in the government to speak to interagency, like, people, uh, scientists. And so they would have me talk to these scientists, like 50 of them, right, from various parts of the government, and basically tell them the story of, like, American Cosmic. And I was like, "Okay, I'll do that. Why?" You know, they didn't say anything about why. But I started to think maybe this is like a Hal Puthoff thing or maybe this is like a Tyler thing, that I'm doing this for them so that their brains can think this has already been done. We better do this.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:38:20

        Hmm. So when, when you say the sophisticated propaganda that the Nazis have, th- that we took this technology from them, like, what do you mean by that? Like, what was their tech- what, what was- unique about their propaganda?

    17. DPDiana Pasulka1:38:33

        All right. So I don't know exactly, but I do have some ideas, and two of the ideas I have are what I just told you, that if you can seed the population with images and belief, you know, that will impact their belief, you can change it. Okay, there's that one. But there's also the one that, you know Bill Cooper's book, um-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:38:55

        Behold a Pale Horse

    19. DPDiana Pasulka1:38:56

        ... Behold a Pale Horse?

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:38:56

        Uh-huh.

    21. DPDiana Pasulka1:38:56

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so in Behold a Pale Horse, he talks about the quiet weapons, where he's talking about basically technology and how technology is going to engineer consent, and he's talking about this in, I don't know what exactly when he wrote that.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:39:12

        [lips smack] Engineer consent.

    23. DPDiana Pasulka1:39:13

        Yeah, engineer consent of the population about certain things, and you do that through, uh, utilizing social media. Well, he's not calling it that. He's calling it quiet weapons. But, you know, back then, putting stuff on TV and, you know, creating a narrative that people buy into and believe, and he said that this is going to, uh... You see this, by the way, with Arthur C. Clarke in his book, in his, uh, short story, Childhood's End, or no, it's a book, um, where, you know, the, he's talking about aliens, where these aliens are engineering humanity through technology, through social media and things like that.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:39:52

        Hmm.

    25. DPDiana Pasulka1:39:53

        So this could be what the Nazi propaganda, the weapon is that it could be used as a weapon, but it could also be used for good.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:40:03

        And it could be used to facilitate technological innovation by telling them that it's already been done.

    27. DPDiana Pasulka1:40:09

        Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, when I w- I, it was, uh, I ran in college, so I was a college runner, uh, for track and cross country, and I had a great team of coaches who would teach us sports psychology, and part of what we would do would be we would already see us winning. We would already see. And they would also tell us, "So-and-so ran this. You know, you can do this." So in a sense, they were utilizing that on our team, and it, it was good. It was, you know, helpful.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:40:41

        Hmm. Right. Y- well, it's, it's very important, your mindset, especially when it comes to athletics because there's so much that's involved in competition that's psychological.

    29. DPDiana Pasulka1:40:52

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:40:53

        Do you think that that also is the case when it comes to technological innovation?
17. 1:46:25 – 2:09:13

    Religion, the Book of Enoch, veils in church, and Pasulka’s faith journey

    1. DPDiana Pasulka1:46:25

       But you're rare. You're the rare person who, like, most people in the United States believe in God. Like, there are more than 80% of people who believe in God. They think God runs it, right? God is a non-human intelligence.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:46:38

       But that doesn't... They, they're not mutually exclusive. Like, God could exist and also intelligent life from elsewhere could also exist.

    3. DPDiana Pasulka1:46:46

       That's right, and that's why most people won't be shocked or upset. I don't think that-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:46:50

       Hmm

    5. DPDiana Pasulka1:46:50

       ... there's gonna be a level of, um, anxiety that people predict. Honestly, I don't.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:46:55

       Well, hasn't the, the Vatican even addressed this in saying that if alien life exists, that God could have created life-

    7. DPDiana Pasulka1:47:01

       Yeah

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:47:01

       ... other places?

    9. DPDiana Pasulka1:47:02

       Of course, yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:47:03

        Which really does make sense.

    11. DPDiana Pasulka1:47:04

        Yeah, yeah. So they're not gonna be upset, and there are a lot of Catholics in the United States. So, I mean, people in the United States or even all over the world, there are countries, like in Brazil, where they're okay with, you know, if there, if there are aliens up there. It's not gonna change. They're probably watching us, and nobody's gonna be upset about that.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:47:21

        Hmm.

    13. DPDiana Pasulka1:47:21

        They're still gonna vote for their presidents and their congresspeople and so forth.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:47:25

        Yeah, but it does-

    15. DPDiana Pasulka1:47:26

        So Joe, you're, like, the only one here that I... Not the only one, but you're representing a small minority of people in my opinion.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:47:32

        How so?

    17. DPDiana Pasulka1:47:33

        Because you think that, that it's gonna change everything. You think that it might actually change your worldview, but it's not gonna change the 80% out there.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:47:43

        Hmm.

    19. DPDiana Pasulka1:47:43

        It's not gonna change their worldview.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:47:45

        I think that's a guess. Mine's a guess as well. It's a guess of how it's gonna affect the world. I, I would assume it affects it in a pretty spectacular way. If we have undeniable proof that there is some superior intelligence that's interacting with us and perhaps even controlling events and preventing certain things from happening, like when they go over nuclear bases and stop weapons-

    21. DPDiana Pasulka1:48:13

        Yeah

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:48:13

        ... functions.

    23. DPDiana Pasulka1:48:14

        This is a religious worldview. That's a wh- that's the religious worldview you're, you're identifying right there.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:48:19

        How is that a religious worldview-

    25. DPDiana Pasulka1:48:20

        Because that's the-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:48:20

        ... that there's an intelligent life form from another planet that comes down-

    27. DPDiana Pasulka1:48:23

        Okay, not another planet

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:48:25

        ... and stops nuclear-

    29. DPDiana Pasulka1:48:25

        But, like, you know, there's an intelligent interdimensional-

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:48:27

        Right, we don't know if it's from another planet.
18. 2:09:13 – 2:17:11

    CE-5/orb contact and psychedelics: cognitive sovereignty and ‘inviting it in’

    1. JRJoe Rogan2:09:13

       Right. I get what you're saying. Um, when you hear about people that, uh, supposedly they, they have this, uh, ritualistic practice where they manifest orbs and they, they meditate and-

    2. DPDiana Pasulka2:09:28

       Psionics

    3. JRJoe Rogan2:09:29

       ... what do you think that is?

    4. DPDiana Pasulka2:09:31

       Yeah. So I do believe that they're doing something. Okay.

    5. JRJoe Rogan2:09:34

       A friend of mine did it recently.

    6. DPDiana Pasulka2:09:35

       Mm-hmm. Did, what happened?

    7. JRJoe Rogan2:09:36

       And she's, she's very rational.

    8. DPDiana Pasulka2:09:38

       Okay.

    9. JRJoe Rogan2:09:38

       She's a very rational person, very intelligent person, and she wants me to do it with her. She's like, "You gotta come and try this out." And we're like, we're trying to set a date where she's like, "I'll explain to you how I did it and how you do it." I was like, "All right. I believe you." Like, I've been friends with her for decades. She's super rational, very normal person, very intelligent, not crazy in any way, shape, or form. And she's like, "This is gonna sound fucking nuts, but if you do this, and if you do it and you give it enough time, they will show up."

    10. DPDiana Pasulka2:10:11

        Is this with, like, Steven Greer? Is it, like, CE-5 with him? CE-5-

    11. JRJoe Rogan2:10:14

        She doesn't do... She's-

    12. DPDiana Pasulka2:10:16

        Okay

    13. JRJoe Rogan2:10:16

        ... she's not in any way associated with that guy, but-

    14. DPDiana Pasulka2:10:18

        Okay

    15. JRJoe Rogan2:10:19

        ... she was taught how to do it by someone else.

    16. DPDiana Pasulka2:10:22

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan2:10:22

        And she said she went on some fucking thing where they, they all did it together.

    18. DPDiana Pasulka2:10:27

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan2:10:27

        And, and then she's done it privately alone, and she said-

    20. DPDiana Pasulka2:10:30

        Yeah

    21. JRJoe Rogan2:10:30

        ... you could do it.

    22. DPDiana Pasulka2:10:32

        Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan2:10:34

        She's gonna... She said it's gonna sound fucking insane, but it's real.

    24. DPDiana Pasulka2:10:40

        Okay.

    25. JRJoe Rogan2:10:41

        What do you think about that?

    26. DPDiana Pasulka2:10:43

        All right. Well, I believe that it happens. Okay.

    27. JRJoe Rogan2:10:46

        What do you think is happening?

    28. DPDiana Pasulka2:10:48

        I'm not sure what's happening, but I don't think I would do it.

    29. JRJoe Rogan2:10:52

        Why not?

    30. DPDiana Pasulka2:10:53

        Because I, I believe in cognitive sovereignty. Like, I believe that we should be sovereign, like our... You know, not have something-
19. 2:17:11 – 2:35:19

    Shroud of Turin and Guadalupe tilma: relic debates, evidence, and open questions

    1. JRJoe Rogan2:17:11

       Yeah. Um, we were talking before the podcast about the Shroud of Turin.

    2. DPDiana Pasulka2:17:16

       Oh, yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan2:17:17

       Yeah. And you were s-

    4. DPDiana Pasulka2:17:18

       And we, by the way, we brought that up last time-

    5. JRJoe Rogan2:17:20

       Yes

    6. DPDiana Pasulka2:17:20

       ... I was here, and that w- happened by accident, remember?

    7. JRJoe Rogan2:17:23

       Yes.

    8. DPDiana Pasulka2:17:24

       Yeah, yeah. So a lot of people have been talking about that since we talked about it.

    9. JRJoe Rogan2:17:28

       Yeah. Um, you were saying something though, that the piece that they used for, um, carbon dating, that this was a piece that had been repaired. But I saw there's a lot of dispute about that online. And-

    10. DPDiana Pasulka2:17:43

        It could be, yeah

    11. JRJoe Rogan2:17:44

        ... yeah, a lot of people say that that is just some sort of apologetic excuse for why the numbers don't match up correctly. But then I've also seen things that say that the pollen that is on the, the fibers matches up with the, the exact kinda plants that existed in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago, and that that all aligns, and that further testing needs to be done to determine the actual date of it. Th- that aside, there's still no explanation for why that image exists and how it was created.

    12. DPDiana Pasulka2:18:23

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan2:18:24

        And, um, I've never seen anyone explain in any way that makes any sense how that could have been forged by someone, how it could have been a forgery from someone that long ago, that they could figure it out. Also, they could make it a, a, a r- a reverse negative image, so the only way you see it is through when you look at it in a, in a negative.

    14. DPDiana Pasulka2:18:45

        Yeah, I know. It's pretty crazy. Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan2:18:47

        That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

    16. DPDiana Pasulka2:18:49

        Yeah, yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan2:18:50

        Uh, whatever it is, is it's really weird.

    18. DPDiana Pasulka2:18:53

        It is totally weird. And there are people who... There is a guy who's a, a doctor of, like, blood, a hematologist, and he's, he seems to have no... He d- he's not religious. Um, or he's not, like, you know, uh, out there advocating for religion. And he just happened to study it. Um, he studied the blood, and again, he was like... And the, the, uh, injuries, you know, 'cause he can study the injuries and identify, and they match up. And I mean, I'm not an expert on the shroud, but believe me, every expert that's out there since I was on your podcast a few years ago have re- have, they've reached out to me, and they're like, "Tell Joe to get me on," and so forth. And, um-

    19. JRJoe Rogan2:19:38

        Do you know someone that's a real good, credible expert?

    20. DPDiana Pasulka2:19:41

        Yeah, I know someone. Well, that man, I think, has a good video out there. Check him out.

    21. JRJoe Rogan2:19:46

        Who?

    22. DPDiana Pasulka2:19:46

        Um, I don't know his name, but he's... I mean, you should be able to find if you, uh, do a search.

    23. JRJoe Rogan2:19:51

        I'm thinking about him.

    24. DPDiana Pasulka2:19:51

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan2:19:51

        I know this would be him.

    26. DPDiana Pasulka2:19:52

        Uh-

    27. JRJoe Rogan2:19:53

        "New study claims bloodstains on the Shroud of Turin consistent with torture of Christ."

    28. DPDiana Pasulka2:19:58

        That's not... He doesn't have an Italian name-

    29. JRJoe Rogan2:20:00

        Okay

    30. DPDiana Pasulka2:20:00

        ... the one I know. But I mean, that could be, too. I mean, he could be out there doing that. Um, the guy that, that we found, I can send you the link, but he's-
20. 2:35:19 – 2:38:24

    New book ‘The Others’: UFOs, AI, and non-biological evolution as ‘ET’

    1. DPDiana Pasulka2:35:19

       I just published a book.

    2. JRJoe Rogan2:35:20

       Oh.

    3. DPDiana Pasulka2:35:21

       It came out yesterday, called The Others.

    4. JRJoe Rogan2:35:22

       And what is it about?

    5. DPDiana Pasulka2:35:24

       Uh, it's about stuff we've been talking about, but it's also about religion and about the spiritual sense and things like that, and AI. So it has a, uh, it has a, a theory of ET if, if, you know, we're talking about ET.

    6. JRJoe Rogan2:35:39

       Mm-hmm.

    7. DPDiana Pasulka2:35:40

       It has a theory of ET in it, and a couple other things, so yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan2:35:44

       Uh, what is your theory of ET?

    9. DPDiana Pasulka2:35:46

       Well, I'm, I'm, uh, rehousing some theories. So I'm, like, the theory of, uh, advanced technology being what people are encountering when they're encountering what they consider to be aliens and ET. We talked a little bit about this last time. It was something that I was thinking of it, uh, and I just, uh, rehashed it, so it's, it's there in the book in a more developed form. Uh, if I were to just do an elevator description of it though, uh, I would say that Steven Spielberg's film AI is a really good film about ET and what he thinks, you know, if ET were c- I know he's just done Disclosure Day, but it, but his movie AI seems like-

    10. JRJoe Rogan2:36:30

        When was that movie?

    11. DPDiana Pasulka2:36:32

        It was a long time ago, but it's really good if you rewatch it today. Um, at the end, I'm not gonna do... Well, people should have seen it already, right?

    12. JRJoe Rogan2:36:42

        [laughs]

    13. DPDiana Pasulka2:36:42

        At the end, there are the, are, uh, aliens, and they're basically, humans have long since gone, and their technology, their AI, has improved itself to the point where it's a life form, and so that would be, like, the theory of, of the-

    14. JRJoe Rogan2:36:58

        I think that's probably-

    15. SPSpeaker2:36:59

        2001.

    16. JRJoe Rogan2:37:00

        Oh, wow.

    17. SPSpeaker2:37:01

        Haley Joel Osment.

    18. JRJoe Rogan2:37:02

        Oh.

    19. SPSpeaker2:37:02

        Rest his science, I think.

    20. JRJoe Rogan2:37:03

        I kind of remember this.

    21. SPSpeaker2:37:05

        Jude Law.

    22. DPDiana Pasulka2:37:06

        It's about AI, but at the end, it ends up being kind of like a, uh, a theory of, of ET.

    23. JRJoe Rogan2:37:15

        Yeah, which I kind of have a feeling that life eventually stops being biological and becomes digital, and maybe that's what people are encountering.

    24. DPDiana Pasulka2:37:24

        Yeah, that's what The, The Others is. It has a chapter, two chapters about that, yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan2:37:30

        All right. Well, Diana, it's always fascinating talking to you.

    26. DPDiana Pasulka2:37:34

        Yeah. You too.

    27. JRJoe Rogan2:37:34

        I really enjoyed it.

    28. DPDiana Pasulka2:37:35

        Yeah. Thank you.

    29. JRJoe Rogan2:37:36

        Thank you very much.

    30. DPDiana Pasulka2:37:36

        Uh-huh.

Episode duration: 2:38:26