EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 23,523 words- 0:00 – 0:02
Intro
- JRJoe Rogan
[upbeat music]
- 0:02 – 2:47
Biological war anxiety: from anthrax labs to engineered pathogens
- JRJoe Rogan
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music] Annie, you come here and scare me.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
[sighs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Biological war. Oh, boy. Every time I talk to you, I'm, I'm fucking terrified. [laughs]
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
That is my part-time job-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... to, to actually scare Joe Rogan. If I can do that, wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, every time I talk to you I'm like, "Oh, no." Last time it was nuclear war. Oh, no. Now it's biological war. Oh, no.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Which is actually maybe even grimmer than nuclear, 'cause at least in nuclear you're just, like, gone in the flash.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, I did a show a while back on the SyFy Network called Joe Rogan Questions Everything, and one of the episodes we did was about biological war.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
[sighs]
- JRJoe Rogan
And so we spoke to this guy who used to work for, uh, Russia, uh, during the Cold War, and he was talking about how much anthrax they had and how m- much work they had done on biological weapons, and it was terrifying. He said they had, like, j- just giant vats of anthrax, like enough to kill everyone in New York City.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
They were mil... Was it Ken Alibek, do you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
He was Russian.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Russian? Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
There was a couple of those Russian defector scientists who came here and told us everything they were doing. There was like, you know, tons of anthrax and plague that they were-
- JRJoe Rogan
Plague
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... pla- that's actually the pathogen that I use in the scenario I write is plague, 'cause it's so crazy scary, so dangerous, sits at the top of the government's Tier 1 Select Agent of Dangerous Pathogens.
- JRJoe Rogan
So one of the things that we did during this episode, we went to Galveston to, I guess it's a CDC lab that they had there. So they have these super thick walls, and everyone's wearing space suits, and they have these tubes attached to them, and they were studying all these different really horrible, fatal diseases. And I'm like, "But what if this stuff gets out? Like, it's right here. Like, what, what happens if it gets out?" I'm like, "Well, we take every precaution," and this and that. But his concern, he said, was not for genetically engineered viruses. His fear was really just from natural virus. He says that is just as scary as anything that's out there.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
This is the Russian scientist who said this, or your-
- JRJoe Rogan
No, this was a different guy. This was an American scientist.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah, I think they like to say that, you know? Mother Nature's is just as powerful, but in truth, that's actually not true, because think about what you can do with genetic modification, make it more virulent, more transmissible.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And make it defeat existing vaccines and antibiotics.
- 2:47 – 11:46
Fauci hearings, COVID origins, and gain-of-function as “weapons engineering”
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, we are right now in the middle of the Fauci hearings, so.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yes, we are.
- JRJoe Rogan
He is now testifying in front of Congress and pleading the Fifth about everything, including the color of his tie. It's very weird to watch. It's, uh, in o- in one way it's like, "I told you" to a lot of my liberal friends that wanted to pretend that he was a great guy and that he wasn't doing anything wrong. And now that all these emails have gotten out where it shows that he knew that the fatality rate was much lower than they were saying, he knew that it wasn't dangerous for children, that they didn't need vaccines. He knew that the social distancing thing was all nonsense, and he's got a blanket pardon for 10 years. And the thing is, it's like these people get money for research, and that's what they do. They do research. So if you get money and you get grants for research, well, you're gonna go do research. And if your research is gain-of-function research that makes viruses more infectious to human beings, and, you know, you have to do it 'cause that's your job. That's what you do. That's what you studied. That's what you went to school for. Like th- what a crazy fucking thing we're doing.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
It is bananas, and it's also... I mean, it was really unfortunate, I thought, that yesterday he took the Fifth, 'cause I for one just wanna hear, call me Pollyanna, the truth be told, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, he's not gonna tell you the truth no matter what. He's gonna obfuscate and dance around it and use words that don't totally apply to what he's saying and just ramble on and...
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I mean, COVID absolutely could have been this incredible lesson for all of us. I mean, the nightmare that it was.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And instead we're just left... I mean, can you believe that we still, with all the power of national security, that we still allegedly do not know where the virus came from?
- JRJoe Rogan
But don't we, though?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Definitively. I mean, definitively. People certainly have their ideas.
- JRJoe Rogan
But I think it's high probability that it came from the Wuhan lab. I, I, I think most experts are now saying that, and I think the only reason why they weren't saying that was because of Fauci, and it was really because that he had funded this through the EcoHealth Alliance.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Look, I say that in a very, like, 90,000-foot neutral way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
In other words, every sub... I leave COVID, that part of it out of my book. It, it becomes like a, like a metaphor that underpins the narrative, and people end up reading the book and going, "Wow, I actually think differently about COVID," which was kind of my intention. But every subject matter, uh, expert I spoke to encouraged me to put in the book that almost certainly it was a lab leak. Like, it's just... But, but so when I say we still don't know, that's in a bit of air quotes, meaning how is it that someone can't... How does it all rest on Fauci, who had reasons to mislead us? We know that from looking at what, what's been released. How can it be that he's the only one with the alleged answer to it all?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I mean, the other scientists that were investigating it from the beginning, you know, when they examined the virus, they were saying that all indications that it had been manipulated And they were pretty public about that, and then they weren't, and then they changed their tune. It's just when you have power and you have influence like he did, and the power to make or break careers in the medical world, where these people are terrified. You know, they're already dealing with, uh, malpractice insurance, which-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... which is very high. They already have very high student debt, student loan debt, and it's, it's a bad situation for them, and they're not gonna stick their neck out to, you know, risk their, everything that they've worked for for 20, 30, whatever years for this-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... thing. And that's what most people did. Most people just stuck their head in the sand and, you know.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
They sort of went along with the party line-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... which is also really crazy when you drill down on how dangerous biological weapons are. I mean, look, most of the people I talked to said gain-of-function is a euphemism for biological weapons engineering.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Right.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Period, full stop. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
And a lot of it is spunded- funded by the military.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And that, yes. And, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... and what's crazy is that these are people that have worked f- for Obama just as much as-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... you know, all sides of the aisle work.
- 11:46 – 18:43
Case-fatality confusion and why plague is the real nightmare benchmark
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I mean, you know, it's an existential risk. Do you know what the case fatality rate for COVID was? Like, h- h- the case fatality m- rate, it means how many people out of 100 people that get COVID die.
- JRJoe Rogan
How many? One.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
One. Case fatality rate of one. Pneumonic plague, which I write about in Biological War, mother nature's pneumonic plague, 100 out of 100 die. 100% case fatality rate unless you get antibiotics within 24 hours, then it's about a 15% case fatality rate. But guess what gain-of-function does? You can learn how to outfox antibiotics so that you can turn mother nature's pneumonic plague, which used to be curable with antibiotics, to have no cure. That's the threat level we're dealing with, and meanwhile, people are taking sides about what we're talking about, a lab leak that pretty obviously was a lab leak.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, first of all, I didn't realize that COVID's fatality rate was that high. I thought it was much lower than that.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
It's about 1%. Well, here's wh- okay, so one in 100 people who manifested COVID got it, but COVID is also-
- JRJoe Rogan
One in 100 people who manifested COVID died.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Died, yes. So, like, I don't know anybody-
- JRJoe Rogan
Was it really that much?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
That is the CDC, even Defense Department statistic. But also keep this into consideration. Many, many people who had COVID were never symptomatic.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Like, including my fa- my 83-year-old father and my son, one of my two sons. They could both test positive for COVID and have no symptoms.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, but isn't that a function of the PCR test being really not designed for testing for active diseases? And there's false positives of the PCR test was somewhere in the 80 percents.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Huge, huge. I mean, you're, I think, bringing up the most important point about biology, which is that there's so much uncertainty. There's so much uncertainty. I mean, you and I could get the same pathogen in our lungs. Our immunity systems are totally different. Our physiology is different. So there's no... You- Uncertainty would be something that you would think would be sort of factored into public health officials talking about things. Like, "We're not sure if, dot, dot, dot." But instead, they act with this crazy certainty, which is bogus.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, the big, the big problem with that is profit, right? There's, there was a lot of profit in being able to point towards one very particular method-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... one very particular treatment, and this was the only treatment. And you have to take this treatment, and this treatment is going to make people an insane amount of money. But that's not why they're pushing it. They're pushing it for public health. They really care about you, even though they're gonna make hundreds of billions of dollars.
- SPSpeaker
It's the case fatality rate, is that what you're saying?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It says it's 0.1%.
- JRJoe Rogan
0.1%.
- SPSpeaker
Which was a fraction of the 1% estimated earlier in the pandemic.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that's what I thought it was. I thought it was one-tenth of 1%. So that makes more sense to me because otherwise you would have so many people dead. You know?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
If you think about 300 million people, that means we'd have 3 million people dead, 'cause most people caught COVID.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
It's interesting 'cause the CDC still says it's 1%.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think they're full of shit.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Right. [laughs] But they are-
- JRJoe Rogan
I think they're full of shit. I think they're just... I think the mismanagement and the, just the overall strategy for dealing with it and dealing with people, the lockdowns, keeping kids out of school-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm-hmm
- 18:43 – 21:34
Why Annie wrote 'Biological War' as a Pentagon war-game scenario
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a very good question. So I wanna ask you about this book. Like, what was-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... your motivation for writing it?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
How did you get involved in this? Like, I know you, you pick a subject and-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... you go deep and you dive deep, and then you write your book.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So w- why Biological War?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah. My first six books were written in the past tense, like, you know, the Nazi scientist who came to America, Area 51, um, the Pentagon's Brain. The Nuclear War and Biological War are written in the future. They're scenarios based on Pentagon war games, and that was me realizing, like, there are major existential threats right now speeding up at the rate of science, which is going faster every day literally. And so I modeled the two books after Pentagon war games and got access to people who actually run these games at the Pentagon and learned the sort of holy shit, people are preparing for the worst case scenario, and no one knows about it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that their job, though? I mean, that is their job. They have to be-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... preparing for the worst case scenario. The real question is, are you preparing by creating it?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
The Defense Department or us?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, whoever's-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Oh, uh, um, well, what I wanted to do, first of all, was like, I'm just naturally curious. So I wanted to know, like, what are they, what, how does that preparation play out? Um, the most shocking thing about nuclear was to find out, like, oh, there is no plan-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... because we're all dead. That's literally the quote from the FEMA director. There is no population protection planning after a nuclear strike because everyone's dead. Don't forget your morals, and hope you stocked Pedialyte. That's what he told me, okay? Bio is totally different.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why Pedialyte?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Pedialyte, you know, that stuff you give your kids to drink?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, electrolytes.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah, electrolytes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, not just kids.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
No [laughs] or, or your s- or you, right? That's what he said.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, athletes take it when they-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
At, okay
- JRJoe Rogan
... they cut weight.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
It's been a while since I've been an athlete, but-
- 21:34 – 26:16
When the war game ends: anarchy triggers Continuity of Government and the Devolution Plan
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
But bio, I learned, is completely different animal because what they're really worried about is the secondary effect of panic and anarchy, and that was really interesting to me. 'Cause having written all these books about, you know, the Defense Department and the CIA, the programs are very, you know, they're very structured and ordered. And they don't take place in the homeland, because we're always fighting wars overseas.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
So to learn about a program that would go down in the continental United States where, you know, the Insurrection Act gets declared, posse comitatus gets lifted, the military takes over, um, dot, dot, dot, and then it goes from there, third act of the book, spoiler alert, that was shocking to me. And it was equally shocking that I could actually get this information. A lot of it's classified, but the names of some of the programs are unclassified. So the officials that I interviewed w- took me up to the edge of c- what can be legally known. And I also got the sense of like, oh, that, the sense that these former officials are conveying is the public should know about this. My personal interpretation is, like, let's stop arguing about stuff that, like, doesn't matter and get to the facts and start realizing where the real threats are.
- JRJoe Rogan
So their real fear is worrying about the, the aftermath, worrying about chaos in the streets, rioting, looting. That's their real fear?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
That's the real fear. You can search up any of... So there's unclassified pandemic plans which are done by, like, FEMA, DHS. They're always done by former officials, former SecDef, former CDC director, sitting around a table running a war, a, a pandemic planning game. They do them at the Defense Department, and they call it a biological catastrophe war game. Those are declassified. All of them that I was looking at go through the series of events, you know, outbreak, infection, sort of everyone trying to mitigate the, the, the, the release, the spread, and then it gets to a certain point. In my scenario it's day six, 'cause pneumonic plague is fast. W- there's a point in all these plans where anarchy and chaos takes over, and the war game ends. Ends. Like, oh, and now we're done here. And I would say as the journal- like, to myself- What happens next? What happens next and why aren't we learning about it?
- JRJoe Rogan
And they don't have any plans for what happens after anarchy and chaos?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
They do.
- JRJoe Rogan
They do.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
They just don't, they just don't have it in the declassified games, and that's what... There's a plan called the Devolution Plan.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ooh.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Eyebrows up-
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... for a reason
- JRJoe Rogan
... I don't like that word.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
[clears throat] Think about evolution.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Now put a D in front of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Instead of going forward, you're going backward. So you've heard of DEFCON, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Okay. So DEFCON, defense readiness condition. There's five. Five is the lowest, that's, like, normal every day. At 9/11, we were at three. DEFCON 1 means nuclear war. There's a separate structure of readiness condition called COGCON. Probably haven't heard of it, 'cause it's classified. Stands for Continuity of Government readiness condition. It's got four levels. Four is every day. One is insurrection. The Insurrection Act gets declared, COGCON 1 is in effect, and the Devolution Plan happens, which I learned means a subset of predesignated officials, they know who they are, they've signed contracts, they've rehearsed it, they go out. Uh, in the words of the former FEMA director, "COGCON 1, you send your devolution crews out." They go out to a hot site, warm site, or cold site, underground bunkers located around the United States. This is from an actual FEMA chief telling me this. And they set up how to run the government, because the idea is all the regular government people will probably be dead of anarchy, insurrection, pneumonic plague. [sighs]
- 26:16 – 29:54
Bunkers, 9/11 continuity sites, and the reality of nuclear vulnerability
- JRJoe Rogan
So they have bunkers.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And those are classified.
- JRJoe Rogan
The bunkers are.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Where they are-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you remember-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... what-
- JRJoe Rogan
... there was the, the bunker during, after 9/11 where Dick Cheney-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... was in the bunker-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... but George Bush was just, like, hanging out?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
They left him. I think they left him in Texas.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Or, you know, he was on his ranch.
- JRJoe Rogan
He was just out there-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Actually, actually-
- JRJoe Rogan
... in the world
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... you know what? I, I had someone tell me where he was, and I went through, like, a problem with, like, legal, whether I could say this. So I had to say, "I was told, but, you know, it's not verified," something like that. But, um, one of the CIA spy pilots, K- Ken Collins, he famously flew the Oxcart out at Area 51, he told me that on 9/11, George Bush was driving around in Texas, maybe it was in Florida, in the back of a laundry truck. That's how they kept him hidden.
- JRJoe Rogan
What?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
[laughs] I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
A laundry... So they-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
A laundry truck
- JRJoe Rogan
... did they just have it look like a laundry truck and it outfitted with, like, regular seats in the back and that's how they drive him around?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I mean, [laughs] but-
- JRJoe Rogan
A bulletproof laundry truck?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... no, I think he got, like... I think it was like, "What do we do with him?" And that, that was what was available. It was quick-
- JRJoe Rogan
A laundry truck.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
A laundry truck. That's what I was told by, like, a very reliable source.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was available.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- 29:54 – 37:40
Ancient underground cities, civilization timelines, and the ‘bunker archetype’
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, we were talking about this, um, the other day. Um, we were, we were talking about Derinkuyu. Do you know what that is?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm-mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's, uh, the, an underground facility that's in Turkey. And-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yes, I do know about that
- JRJoe Rogan
... yeah, that they found by accident.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was it, the 1970s?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Like a sheep herder.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I, they used it, it was being used to hide people up until the 1920s.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, people like the Greeks were hiding from people invading Greece.
- JRJoe Rogan
So it can-
- SPSpeaker
Or Turkey, I guess
- JRJoe Rogan
... house 20,000 people ... under there, and they really don't know why they made it or who made it. It's-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Turkey is crazy. It's such a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Crazy
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... old civilization with, like, layers upon-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... layers upon layers of ... Just when you think it's really old, it gets even older.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's Gobekli Tepe, right?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where they, they had to redate.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, they still resist it. M- what, what constitutes modern civilization-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm
- 37:40 – 40:19
Fear of infection: the psychological trigger for violence, scarcity behavior, and collapse
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
It is wild when you think about the underground bunkers now, and you ki- it kind of has this spooky echo-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... as an archetype of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hiding
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hiding from the dangers.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Having a shelter and hiding from the da- the, the, the whole, that trope, that thought of a bunker is-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, there's a lot of, uh, supposedly wealthy people... Well, they are wealthy.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
[laughs] Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
But supposedly they have these underground bunkers.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what you always hear. These rich people-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... these billionaires are setting up bunkers in New Zealand 'cause they know something's coming. Like, "Oh, Jesus."
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Right?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Right. Good luck getting there in time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Right. Right. If the shit goes down, and you happen to be in Hawaii, and you gotta get to New Zealand.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Also, your bodyguards are a lot stronger than you are.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, wouldn't you bring them with you?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah, but it's gonna be every man for themself.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, wouldn't you have a... If you're gonna have that kind of money to make a b- wouldn't you have a bunker that could house a few hundred people so that you could, you know, nobody-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
This-
- JRJoe Rogan
... gets insurrection in your movement?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Y- I mean, I suppose if you bring everybody's family. You have to have a lot of preparing for this. That's what really kept taking me back to those docu- the documents in the Defense Department about fear of infection creates anarchy-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- 40:19 – 45:54
Terrorist bioweapon ambitions: Afia Siddiqui and weaponized pathogen concepts
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Okay, so pneumonic plague, and there are, you know... I mean, look, I also write in the book, and this has never been reported before 'cause I interviewed CIA officers who both debriefed the Soviet defectors and also people who chased WMD in the hands of terrorists during the war on terror. And I specifically didn't wanna write that scenario because it's so loaded to go with, like, terrorist youth, use of a biological agent. But I give you little history lessons when I stop the drama, one of which involves an Al-Qaeda terrorist that was captured. She's actually now in Texas in a mental institution for the rest of her life. Her name's Afia Siddiqui. She's an MIT-trained biologist related by marriage to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, okay? And she was leading the biological weapons program. This is according to the CIA officers.
- JRJoe Rogan
She was trained at MIT?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
She was trained at MIT, and then she went back to Pakistan. She was the first woman on the FBI's most wanted terrorist list.
- JRJoe Rogan
How come they have her in a mental institute?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
'Cause they caught her, and then this part is reported. They caught her, and somehow, again, the air quote, somehow she got a hold of a Marine's rifle and fi- and was firing at the FBI agents interviewing her. This is all public. And she was shot. They take her to the United States, gave her a trial, decided she was insane, put her in a mental s- institution. But what had never been revealed before in my book is that in her handbag, she had plans to create a genetically modified pathogen that mixed rabies with chickenpox.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Think about that. Imagine airborne rabies. Rabies, like pneumonic plague, is one of the only other pathogens that has 100% death rate-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... without countermeasures.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh. And rabies, like, when you see it in animals, I've never actually encountered a rabid animal in the, in the wild-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... as l- as much as I know. Um, but when you see them, they, they want to infect something else.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They get hyper-aggressive.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They wanna bite you So if they bite you-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm-hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... they give it to you, which is really crazy.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, this, this disease makes them throw their own safety out the window and just go after people-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... and try to bite them.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I mean, it's like a, it's an, like rabies is a s- like now its own ra- a rabid animal.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
You know, you think of it, of it's so visceral.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Right.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
It's gonna come at you with its infected saliva. I almost went with the rabies scenario because I, I always b- in these scenarios tie them to actual events that have happened so that there's, so that readers don't go like, "This is Annie Jacobsen's dystopian imagination," as much as they say, "Oh, she's following what, you know, science... This is science fact, not science fiction." And so when I learned about that plan for t- for the genetic modification of rabies in chicken, airborne rabies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
But then I thought-
- JRJoe Rogan
How far did she get along with this?
- 45:54 – 59:35
Mitigating extermination: gas masks, critical infrastructure, and ‘Reconstitution’
- JRJoe Rogan
So what do they think that they're gonna do if they get into these bunkers? Th- this is the thing. It's like if society completely collapses and anarchy just sweeps the nation, and you've got cities on fire and people killing people and looting, eventually they're gonna run out of food. Eventually there's gonna be no infrastructure. You've got no power. You've got no one who's taking care of the water. No one's taking care of the satellites. No, no one's taking care of anything. The cell phone towers are down.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
What are these people in the bunker gonna do? Are they gonna reinvent society?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Well, that's the plan down the road, but before-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do they have that? Do they have a-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Their part five of the Devolution plan is called Reconstitution.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, Jesus.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
[laughs] So they're gonna reconstitute the government, like, rise again like a phoenix from the ashes. But before that, I also learned the government has issued, the, rather the Pentagon has issued 1.7 million gas masks to its personnel. So they fan out across the states, but they can not really handle the numbers of people who are actually gonna die pretty quickly. So instead, what their job is is to protect the critical infrastructure, all that stuff you exactly mentioned.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they're just, just assuming that most people are gonna die.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is the quote. This is the r- exact quote from Colonel Tom Erhart, who ran, uh, catastrophic nuclear and biological war games at the Pentagon for... Do you, have you ever heard of a very famous guy, they called him Yoda at the Pentagon. He died, like, a couple years ago at age 100. His name is Andy Marshall.
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
He ran the Office of Net Assessment. Talk about a euphemism, like, or, like, a cloaked... That's where they did all the war gaming, and Marshall, Andy Marshall, did this f- in the '70s all the way through his recent death, and Tom Erhart worked for him. It's in the office of the Secretary of Defense. So what Erhart told me is, "In the event of a biological catastrophe," and by the way, that includes not just an attack, but an incident, and an incident means a lab leak, okay? So, "In the event of a catastrophic biological incident, there is very little you can do to protect the homeland. Only things you can do to mitigate extermination."
- JRJoe Rogan
Of the human race?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
That's his quote.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mitigate extermination.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mitigate extermination.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you wanna keep as many people alive as possible, but it's probably gonna be a very small amount.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And it's probably just gonna be the 1.7 people with the gas mask and a whole bunch of, like, Machiavellian solipsists.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you imagine if our society had to be reinvented- With only people that work in the government
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Can you imagine?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And, and pe-
- JRJoe Rogan
Some of the most incompetent, crooked people in the world-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... and that's the new society?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Well, I have a feeling most of the bureaucrats would die, because I don't think they could, you know, take care of themselves.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Right? I think the people that would live would be those well-trained soldiers.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's not bad. That's probably a better scenario.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
But the other problem you're looking at is reproduction, 'cause there's 17% females in the military.
- 59:35 – 1:04:10
Who has bioweapons? The 1972 treaty, post-9/11 lab expansion, and global BSL proliferation
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. [sighs] So to get back to your book, um, how many different countries do we know are involved in this kind of-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... biological war research?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
So for starters, biological war is illegal. Biological weapons are illegal, unlike nuclear weapons, believe it or not, are perfectly legal for the countries that have them. Wrap your head around that. But everybody signed a treaty in 1972 called the Biological Weapons Convention Treaty saying, "We will not make biological weapons. They are odious to the conscience of mankind." At that point, the Soviets signed the treaty, crossed their fingers behind their back, and made a ginormous biological weapons program that you talked about earlier. Okay? America allegedly destroyed her arsenal of n- of c- of biological weapons, which took 219 weeks to destroy, by the way. Um, and not for another 20 years did we learn that actually the Soviets were running this biological weapons program, and we only learned it because of the Soviet defectors. The CIA had no idea. Defense Department had no idea.
- JRJoe Rogan
So we had completely stopped all of that work?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
According to the documents, according to anyone you interview, we had stopped biological weapons work.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what year was this, Hull?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Nixon Made a declaration in 1969, like, "We're just giving up our biological weapons program," and then everyone else followed suit, and the treaty came about in 1972.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the Soviets continued their work.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
The Soviets not only continued, they just like w- they, like, went bang on it, and they later called it their Manhattan Project.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] And weren't there bioweapons labs in Ukraine?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
You're talking about recently?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. That the United States was-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
... involved in
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... what there are, are there are biologic- there are biosafety labs. Okay, so your original question was, where are they around the world? So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... so they're, they're illegal. But what isn't illegal, 'cause this is a carve-out in the treaty, you can do research for prophylactic purposes, for medical countermeasures.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
That's the carve-out. So that's where we've gotten to gain of function, you see.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Like, "Oh, we're just doing this for prophylactic purposes."
- JRJoe Rogan
That's how the DOD gets involved.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Okay. So before 9/11, 9/11 factors into this, and so does Dick Cheney. Because before 9/11, America had two BSL-4 labs. Biosafety level 4, that's the highest level. That's like you saw, the suits, the tubes, your arms are in the boxes. You're taking a sho- a chemical shower before you go in. America had two. One at Fort Detrick, that's the DOD's lab. One at the CDC in Atlanta. That's the civilian lab. 9/11 happens. Remember the anthrax attacks?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Never solved. Thank you, FBI. Dick Cheney personally is terrified of bioweapons, and he spearheads the efforts for this giant biological military industrial complex that then takes off and begins with billions of dollars pumped into gain of function type research. And America goes from having two BSL labs to having 15, and the world follows suit. So there are 110 BSL-4 labs around the world, including in countries that are at war.
- JRJoe Rogan
And this is all post-Bush administration?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Post-Bush admin- That is when it took off. [blows raspberry] That is when it took off.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
So America has a hand in the blossoming of this problem, most certainly. And then when you find out that... So as you think BSL-4, okay, well, BSL-3, that just must be, like, you know, chicken pox. No. In the BSL-3 labs, you can work with plague, anthrax, hantavirus, like, serious diseases that allegedly have cures. And so th- you know how many b- BSL-3 labs there are in the United States of America right now?
- 1:04:10 – 1:11:22
Garage biolabs and ‘low barrier to entry’: why bio scares more than nukes
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you hear about the story where there was a man in Vegas that had a biolab in his garage?
- SPSpeaker
In California.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yes. Yes. Look at this.
- JRJoe Rogan
In California?
- SPSpeaker
Both. Both, both, both.
- JRJoe Rogan
Another one?
- SPSpeaker
They're both, there's... And they were seemingly linked.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, boy.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And then also-
- JRJoe Rogan
Possibly tied to California case federal Chinese investigation. [laughs]
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, wait till I show you what's at the bottom too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, boy, Jamie, why are you doing this to me?
- SPSpeaker
Mm. Uh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh. Oof. No case appeared filed in state federal court as of Sunday.
- SPSpeaker
Like, it's, uh... Uh, and I didn't really see a follow-up. I don't know how to Google it yet.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I haven't seen the dead mice. Jamie, what are the... What's with the dead mice there?
- SPSpeaker
So 1,000 dead mice. There's vials-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Oof
- SPSpeaker
... including HIV, malaria. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, the, the crazy thing is, the guy who they caught, they didn't arrest him. Like, there was an Israeli guy. So this says Chinese investigation, but one of them was a guy who was an Israeli guy, who they caught, and they s- sent him away.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He just... They didn't prosecute him. He took off.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I mean, this stuff is so thinly reported, and it's always got, like, a giant sensationalist clickbait type headline, and people read about it and know about it a little bit, and then the real reality behind it, I think, gets completely lost. Which is that the bottom line is that the barrier to entry in the biological weapons field is so incredibly low, it's horrifying. Like, think about what you need to have a nuclear weapon.
- JRJoe Rogan
A lot.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Y- I mean, look at Iran right now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Okay, you have to have enriched uranium or plutonium. You have to have fissile material. Then you have to have a weapons system. You have to have an ICBM or a submarine or a B-2 bomber. Nuclear weapons are tightly controlled by a nation's command and control structure. All subject matter experts I interviewed for this book expressed their serious concern that the barrier for entry is so low that basically a h- given computational systems, AI-enabled bio, basically a high school student with limited knowledge of biology can make a bioweapon in their basement or in the Vegas apartment building.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, this guy had it in his garage, and they caught him.
- 1:11:22 – 1:19:54
Everyday health spillovers: alpha-gal, acupuncture claims, PFAS, and public trust erosion
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you know anything about this alpha-gal tick? This lone star tick that gives people this, uh, allergy to red meat?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
A little bit. A little bit, in as much that it's a parasite, which is different, you know, so it's a bug, which is different than a germ. Um, but I think it speaks to this idea that sort of there are natural things that are happening in our environment, and then there are also unnatural things, and the inability to differentiate between them or trust. Look, so much of all this has been about trust the science.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And then, okay, we can't trust the science, unfortunately, around COVID, and we're all waiting for a reckoning around COVID. It's obviously not coming anytime soon. And in the meantime, you have, you know, the lettuce outbreak. You have the alpha-gal. You have Legionnaires' disease from data centers in New York. There's an influx of health concerns coming from Mother Nature herself. Here we are in this world of incredible science and technology. I mean, I talk to biotechnologists who, by the way, really have a utopian take on this. Now, there is lots of money involved for them, but they really believe that the, that science is the answer and can be the answer to a lot of these problems. I was, I sat next to a guy at dinner a couple nights ago who told me that his company in San Diego has a countermeasure for alpha-gal. I have no idea of, of verifying this. This just happened. But that the reason they can't get it through is because of insurance.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, one of the treatments that's supposed to be very effective is acupuncture on your ears.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
On your ears.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. See if you can find anything on that. I, I've read about this, that there's, like, a 90% ... remission that, uh, one guy's been able to achieve through acupuncture on your ears, which is like, why do you... What? Like, hey, whatever works, but is this real? Acupuncture, uh, so- acupuncture, specifically a specialized ear technique called, uh, Soliman Auric- Auricular Allergy Treatment, is being explored by integrative practitioners to help manage and potentially achieve remission for alpha-gal syndrome, though it's not yet a standard medically proven cure. How it works for alpha-gal. Targeted ear points. Provider locates a specific, highly reactive electrical point on the outer ear associated with the alpha-gal immune response.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
A- acupuncture's so weird 'cause it seems to be doing something.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Do you have acupuncture?
- JRJoe Rogan
No. No.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Oh, okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
I had it done once, but the guy was a kook-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Okay
- JRJoe Rogan
... and I never went back.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I feel like acupuncture is so old and comes from-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... such a long history of experiences. I th- I have acupuncture.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And it just seems like anytime I go for anything, someone wants to give me drugs, which I'm not a fan of. I go to the acupuncturist. Sure, call it the placebo effect, or call it whatever you want, but it certainly works for me.
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't necessarily think it's a placebo.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think a lot of that really old stuff we like to dismiss because we like petroleum-based pharmaceutical drugs, 'cause that's what the doctor gives us as standard of care. I, I have a feeling there's a lot, a lot of real... It's been around too long for them to just-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... keep faking it.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I mean, it, if it works, it works.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Right? So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, if this, if it turns out that this ear technique-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Be amazing
- 1:19:54 – 1:29:09
COVID messaging failures: airborne denial, Lysol partnerships, masks as ideology, and bureaucratic incentives
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I think also when you like... Okay, let, can I give you an anecdote?
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Because this comes to mind about what you're saying is like that idea that there's uncertainty, okay? And uncertainty raises your cortisol levels.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And even worse is when you're uncertain about something you're being told is true, but you're like, "I'm uncertain." That is like e- even more anxiety making.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Right? One of the things that's stunning to me is how the CDC and the WHO, they're supposed to be these pillars of sort of the North Star of, you know, public health. At least they certainly were when I was a kid. You really looked up to these organizations, okay? COVID happens, this, the WHO and the CDC both issue, they are tweeting out three months into the pandemic, "COVID not airborne." Not is in capital letters. I have a copy of the tweet in the book because no one really believes this unless they see it, okay? COVID was airborne. COVID was airborne. That is how we all got COVID, COVID. It is in, makes something incredibly pandemic prone, okay? Instead, they said, "You get," remember, you get COVID from, like, touching surfaces.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
We're all, like, out buying Lysol.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
The CDC went into a partnership with Lysol. Lysol disappeared from the supply chain. We now know, that's actually called fomite transmission. That's the scientific term for getting something off a surface. We now know that 1 in 10,000 cases of COVID was transmitted from a surface. How can they have gotten it so wrong is a question everybody should be asking. And the explanation, because by the way, the WHO didn't change, they kind of quietly about nine months later started saying COVID was airborne, same as CDC. They never said like, "Look, we're really sorry. We made a serious mistake, and here's why." And I called both the CDC and the WHO looking for an explanation and asking why they never made an apology, and no answer. And I think that's like what we're talking about. Talk about raising cortisol levels.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
You know, when your institution is completely wrong. And by the way, I don't think it was nefarious. They literally didn't know, or they had their panel of experts disagreeing to such an extent that they just went with not airborne as opposed to airborne. It-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it does weird you out that they were in a partnership with Lysol, though.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
That, [laughs] I had to report that in the book, because that is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, but just, you just start thinking about profit motives.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I mean, if I had to guess, it was convenient to have a partnership with them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I don't have any reason to believe that they were like, "Let's say it was fomite transmission and partner up with Lysol." But I, uh, uh, certainly if you're Lysol, you're gonna probably go, "Hey guys, let's partner together."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
But, you know, it disappeared from the supply chain. I remember trying to buy Lysol and not being able to at Target.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you remember how much-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
It was gone
- JRJoe Rogan
... hand sanitizer was everywhere? Everyone was squirting that stuff. Now it turns out hand sanitizer is just not good for you.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Abso- and I still see people using hand sani-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... tizer all over the place, bottles of it, like in corporate places.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
It's really bad.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 1:29:09 – 1:58:17
Accountability and bureaucracy: who empowered Fauci, HHS’s role, and why ‘conspiracy’ matters
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
that he was in charge. There's not doctrine that put him charge, in charge. It was kind of like a group, "Okay, he'll be in charge." R- Really, the person in charge is the secretary of HHS. That is the person in charge. In fact, Joe, I was invited to the White House last week, right? They asked me to come and bring some copies of Biological War A Scenario. I went.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you meet with Trump?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
No, [laughs] I didn't. I met with HHS. I met with the chief technology officer of HHS. And they said in their original email, you know, "We're the ones that would be in charge in the event of this kind of a thing," which I know from having reported it. So they're in charge. Why did Fauci get to take the torch?
- JRJoe Rogan
Why do you think?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
I don't know, but it should be looked at. In other words, he, yes, h- we all know that he was in charge, and he was always. But what I don't understand is in a billion, actually trillion dollar, HHS, by the way, has a budget that's twice the size of the Defense Department. Twice the size of the Defense Department. And so, and it defaulted to Fauci, who was head of NIH, then retired, and then he was just chosen as, like, the president's lead medical counsel or medical professional. So in other words, a group of people put him into that position. Who are they? Why? What do they have to say about this?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I mean-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Do you see?
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm, I'm sure part of it was just they needed someone to take the reins, and he was more than willing to do it, and probably confidently stated how he would handle it, and what we were gonna g- do, and how to go about it.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And didn't those people also have an opinion? Like, what if they saw the Jon Stewart episode where, y-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... you know? Like, d- even if they didn't have an opinion before, why didn't they have an opinion after? And why, why did everybody just fall into line like sheep? That's really more interesting to me at this point. In addition to the individual being held responsible for obviously misleading the public and creating a conspiratorial situation. Conspiring is simply two or more people working to conceal the truth.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
It's an actual conspiracy if they're gonna-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's a weird thing too, that people-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... resist the term conspiracy, and they think it's foolish.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
It's a legitimate term. I mean, I think when people call other people conspiracy theorists, they should just say they have an alternative narrative. That's all that is. But an actual conspiracy is a legal term
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, not only that, there's a huge amount that you can point to in history where, where there were really people conspiring. Huge amount of stories
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And the reason why it's legally, you know, it's a really difficult situation, and it needs to be looked at, is because one person, you know, it can keep a secret, right? But when multiple people are involved and a conspiracy is involved, you are actively working as a group to mislead, and then it becomes easier, more powerful, more effective. And so those other scientists, you know, we now know on the record that there were a dozen scientists that Fauci looked at, looked to, to give him information about lab leak versus w- wet market. 10 of them went with lab leak. Two of them leaned toward-
- JRJoe Rogan
Natural spillover
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
... natural. Fauci wanted it to be natural spillover. You know, that's where you could say then there began... And again, I'm just talking legal terms. I'm not a lawyer.
- JRJoe Rogan
Conspiring
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
But, like, they began to conspire to change the story, right? Just look at the numbers.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Look at the numbers.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
And so what about that? You know, because I think if you're just gonna have a single fall guy, you're really not going to be doing much for the future to have people, you know, a group of people say, "You know, I don't wanna be part of this conspiracy," because that's an important individual stance that can be taken by many people. And we see that among... You said you have friends who don't wanna kind of take a position because they don't wanna be associated with that group or that group.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Well, you know, if it starts in the center and there's responsibility for the group, I think that makes people think more open-mindedly in the future.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, the problem was these people's career depended upon them toeing the line, and if they stepped outside of Fauci's jurisdiction and power, they were fucked.
- 1:58:17 – 2:15:03
UFOs, disinformation history, DARPA’s AI-bio concerns, and ChatGPT revealing stockpile locations
- JRJoe Rogan
It's, uh, like I said, you always freak me out. Every time I talk to you it's, like, some new thing that I have to think about for months on end. Um, I wanted to talk to you about your Area 51 book because, uh, in the time since you released that book and when we first talked, a lot has changed, and, you know, what is your take on all these, you know, UAP disclosure videos and leaks and the things that the government has trickled out slowly? Most of the people in the UFO community are very... Uh, like I say, the UFO community with air quotes-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm-hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... are very unsatisfied by that stuff, but at least there's some information. It's being... It sort of changed the tone in the zeitgeist of what this subject is. It's no longer this thing that you are afraid of talking about because y- you don't wanna be labeled as a fool.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Mm-hmm. I mean, what is my position on UFOs in general, or the community around UFOs and the changing?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, first of all, UFOs in general.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's your position on that?
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
So my position is, my position has never changed despite all the stuff that has come out because my perspective is limited to my experience writing the Area 51 book and knowing and talking to first-hand people who were really clear with me, and I looked at the documents about the CIA's deception campaign starting in the 1950s with the U2, to use the UFO phenomena, which was just taking off in the '50s, as cover for UFO f- for U2 flights, and then later the A-12 Oxcart flights. So, you know, Colonel Slater, who ran Area 51, would tell me about, you know, they would run a, they would run a, a U2, which was flying at 70,000 feet. At the time, nothing could fly at 70,000 feet. People would see it. It has these really, really long wings, looks like a giant flying X in the sky. People would say, "I see a UFO," and they would kind of say, "Ooh, that might have been a UFO." Like, that would be the... And Colonel Slater knew about that. So does that mean every UFO s- sighting since 1950 was a U2 flight? Of course not. Of course not. But I am aware of that use of the phenomena as cover for the CIA, and that led to a lot of research and reporting and other information for me about how the CIA uses deception campaigns. And so I have never changed my position on that. I also have a lot more information, which is probably a whole other podcast, about all that reporting I did. Um, but maybe the best analogy for me... And listen, I never... I know a lot of the people in that UFO community. They've- I've had many conversations with everyone from Jacques Vallée to Hal Puthoff. Um, but for me personally, so after having taken a trip to Africa recently to study predatory animals, I got really into following trail cams on X. Do you know about this?
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] No.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
You don't know about this?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Oh my God. They're t- they're cameras all over the world set up on trails. So I have, like, I follow, like, lions and leopards and, you know, rhino, like, all these animals that you would never... Bears, moose, deer. You gotta follow them. It's incredible.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I do see some trail camera footage-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Okay
- JRJoe Rogan
... because I'm a hunter.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I follow a bunch of hunters-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Okay
- JRJoe Rogan
... on Instagram, and I see trail cam footage. Like, there's a bunch of trail cam footage of, like, mountain lions-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... attacking elk and things-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Okay
- JRJoe Rogan
... like that, which is very fascinating. But y-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... so you're just studying-
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Okay, so this is my point. So, uh, so in my algorithm, my X algorithm, it's great because on top of, like, nuclear weapons and biological, I have, like, leopards and lions and bears, you know? And they're all still images. Or owls are a big one, and they're incredible because they're just capture... It l- it's like it seems like a Werner Herzog, you know, image, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
Because they're animals looking at the camera in such an incredible way. I literally just stare at them in delight and then, of course, the algorithm gives me more and more and more. But my point of that is I feel like with all this magic and mystery that you can see that you could never have seen before, snow leopards in Pakistan. They thought there were just a handful. It turns out they're not, thanks to the trail cams. My thought is, where are the aliens? Why haven't I seen them on the trail cams?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, maybe they're sophisticated enough to know what these devices are. Maybe they're also sophisticated enough to completely cloak themselves.
- AJAnnie Jacobsen
[coughs]
Episode duration: 2:15:04
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Transcript of episode ZACmIrFbfPU
