EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,011 words- 0:00 – 0:02
Intro
- JRJoe Rogan
[upbeat music]
- 0:02 – 4:02
MUFON “frogs and reptilian” UFO video roast + why the space is flooded with junk
- JRJoe Rogan
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.
- SPSpeaker
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music]
- SPSpeaker
Are we up?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hi, Jesse. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Hello, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right when we walked in, Jamie has apparently been down some rabbit holes.
- SPSpeaker
Deep rabbit holes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And what is, uh, this-
- SPSpeaker
Who doesn't go down a rabbit hole?
- JRJoe Rogan
Who doesn't? Nobody that I like talking to.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
So here's the name of the thing. I s- I think I stumbled across this video somewhere else, but here's a website that has it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Grays, Frogs, and a Reptilian on Video: MUFON Case 142206. Video taken from inside a UFO. And this is from alienarchivists.substack.com, so you know it's legit.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
What is this? 2021, June 12th, 1:15 AM. Anonymous man, Key West, Florida, recorded a 42-second video allegedly... Al- also Key West, so you know it's legit.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Florida man.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's definitely not on drugs.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Definitely not drunk.
- SPSpeaker
Not on bath salts, for sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] 42-second video allegedly captured from inside a UFO. Video appears to show the interior of a room containing several distinct entities with a cell tower visible throughout what appears to be a window in the background. According to the investigative report, the tower's obstruction lights flash at a rate of 30 times per minute, the same rate required under FAA standards for a cell tower obstruction lighting. Experiencer was suffering from severe hip pain at the time, definitely not on drugs, severe hip pain.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
And believes the intense physical discomfort, definitely that and not the drugs, helped him resist the sedation used by the entities, allowing him to instinctively record the encounter. With no conscious memory of the event, he did not discover the video in his phone gallery until six months later. He later underwent hypnotic regression in an attempt to recover his missing memories from that night. Below are the key visually enhanced stills and the 42 seconds of footage. Have you watched this, Jamie?
- SPSpeaker
I remember watching some of the footage.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, you were drugged as well. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I'm, I was-
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't even remember it. You gotta go through-
- 4:02 – 9:15
How to sniff out BS: online identities, rehearsed narratives, and Vallée’s skepticism of ‘face value’ experiences
- JRJoe Rogan
This is the problem with the whole UFO world, and you do a fantastic job of navigating it. And I should just tell everybody, if they haven't seen you before, American Alchemy, best by far channel on YouTube when it comes to UFO discussions. You, you're the most balanced, the most reasonable, but also open-minded, and you're willing to talk to everybody. A- all the whistleblowers and former this and former that and staffers, and this guy's got this fucking piece of evidence, and you talk to everybody.
- SPSpeaker
I do talk to everybody. And thank you, Joe, that means the world to me. Um, I, and I've definitely gotten things wrong. I should say [laughs] that. It's a, a very treacherous landscape to navigate. Uh, and, uh, yeah, it's really hard to gain any kind of... You know, if there's a signal to noise ratio, it's hard to get signal.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, there's a lot of noise. And this is the problem is I think a lot of that noise is engineered. I think it's on purpose.
- SPSpeaker
I think it is on purpose, 'cause in today's world with AI where it's actually easier to deduce the signal than ever if you're an ordinary citizen, if you wanna muddy the waters, you could try to get people away from the signal or you could try to increase the noise.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And that's, those are two ways to deflect from the truth, and I think the flood the zone, increase the noise is what the kind of counter-intel community has-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... decided [laughs] is gonna be the strategy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's interesting because instinctively, if you've been around the block and you've, and you clearly have more than anybody, you've seen enough of these things. Something comes up and you're like, "Okay, I'm being fucked with." Like, "Okay, this is not real. Okay, there's something..." And then some of them, you're like, "Wait, okay, there's something here." And it's just, it's almost like you have to go on the instincts that you've developed by being inundated with horseshit for so long.
- SPSpeaker
Well, I feel like you're probably the best in the world at that. It's all like, you know, in, uh... For example, in AI, in machine learning, you have garbage in, garbage out.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So if you have bad data Then, like, there's bad output on the other end. And your pattern matching gets better over time. And I think you have more data points probably than anybody as far as... Like, there's probably a thing that you do where you, like, lean in and you, like, lock people in. You, like, look them in the eye [laughs] and, like, you pro- I don't know if you're even, like, aware of it, but you can, I feel like, see through people somewhat, and that's not even-
- JRJoe Rogan
Somewhat.
- SPSpeaker
Somewhat.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's not in- it, it's, it's got faults. It's, it's not-
- SPSpeaker
It's instinctive-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and I'm sure it's not perfect, but you're probably, like, S tier at that, and, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
If I'm well-rested
- SPSpeaker
... and I think it just comes through. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
This is also the problem with me, is that, you know, I own a comedy club, and I, I'm addicted to playing pool. So sometimes I'll stay up till 4:00 in the morning, and then I have to get up at 8:00, you know, and then I'm only getting four hours of sleep. So I'm trying to mitigate that, and I come in, like, a little foggy.
- SPSpeaker
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's, that's a pro- I'm trying to do that way less, you know, but, uh, that fucks me up. But when I'm well-rested, I'm pretty good at it. As long as, as long as you know what you're looking for. You know, if you've seen enough people bullshit you and enou- and you just, you smell it. It's weird. Like, you smell patterns. You smell people being disingenuous, or you smell narratives.
- SPSpeaker
They're trying to sell something-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... or, uh, kind of, I don't know, artificially round something out when they don't know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- SPSpeaker
... or not be humble and be like, "I don't know." [laughs] You know, like, it's, it's ambiguous here, actually, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
There's also a problem, and I'm sure you've faced this before, too, where a lot of these people, they've developed an online identity that's based on being someone who has knowledge about something. And so they're, they're carrying this with them. So you're not even getting a whole person. You get a person that's wrapped in this cloak of, "I'm a guy with UFO knowledge," or, "I'm a guy with," you know, fill in the blank. Simulation theory knowledge or-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- 9:15 – 12:58
Consciousness-rendered reality: quantum measurement, observer effects, and mind-matter experiments
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. And, and then there's this, this weird conundrum of consciousness itself. Like, and how does consciousness actually interface with reality? Are we experiencing reality, or does consciousness have a role in rendering reality? Which is what a lot of people believe, and they start making very compelling arguments that consciousness is actually rendering reality. You know, Tom Campbell was on the other day, and he has this very weird way of putting it. Have you ever h- talked to him?
- SPSpeaker
I've never talked to him, but I'm, I'm a fan.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's-
- SPSpeaker
And I saw your episode with him
- JRJoe Rogan
... fascinating.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's fascinating. So he believes that it's like a video game in which, you know, parts are not rendered unless you are, like, actively entering into a room. Say if you're playing a 3D game, it doesn't render the entire 3D universe until you go into a place where it has to render it.
- SPSpeaker
I believe that as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ooh.
- SPSpeaker
And if you speak to most people... Like, if you had Sean Carroll sitting here, he would say something like, "Reality is probabilistic. It exists in this quantum superposition, and that's just fundamentally what it is." And if you look at the origin of quantum mechanics with the Copenhagen School, Niels Bohr, all these guys in Denmark sitting around debating what reality is, it turned into this sort of... You know, the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is that measurement collapses the wave function.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And then you have to ask, what does that mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
Like, does it... And that now w- we basically have gotten into this thing where it's like the quantum detector, or when, you know, uh, uh, waves or particles collide, they collapse into specific states or whatever. Um, but who kn- the, the, the... It's literally unfalsifiable ei- in either direction. Like, you can't say it's not the observer. It's not the human being that's present. The superposition could exist in the quantum detector itself. So th- and a lot of the godfathers of quantum mechanics themselves flirted with this idea. So, uh, von Neumann and Wigner, uh, you know, David Bohm, a lot of these guys were like, "Actually, we think the mind could collapse the wave function." And then you have parapsychology, uh, institutes at elite universities across America, the Rhine Center at Duke, um, uh, Stanford Research Institute, uh, Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, which was started by the dean of engineering at Princeton, and they all have something called the random event generator, um, experiment, which is basically you tie something that is conventionally thought of as random in quantum mechanics, so something like radioactive isotope decay or a double slit experiment where you have, you know, 50/50 distribution between the two slits. No quantum physicist could ever argue that that's not basically a perfect coin flip, right? Over a long enough period of time within a standard deviation, you expect a certain amount of slit one, a certain amount of slit two. Left slit, right slit. And you bring an observer present and you say- I want, you know, more of the right slit, or I want more of the left slit, and it's usually tied to a graphical interface, and it- y- you're, you're seeing ones and zeros. And w- in s- a statistically significant way, consistently, all of the people who've studied these random event generators come out saying that the person is able to affect the supposedly random quantum mechanical event. That's crazy, and it's not necessarily inconsistent with the original Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. So I think we've just, like, totally gone astray. I think people like Tom Campbell are, like, bringing back the very importance of con- you know, of, of consciousness. It's this problem of the eye seeing the eye. There's no way to... It's the tree falls in the woods d- you know, Aristotle question. Like, there's no way to say that the observer isn't important for rendering reality.
- 12:58 – 16:25
Transmission theory of consciousness + Puthoff’s ‘extended electrodynamics’ link to psi
- JRJoe Rogan
And we don't even really know if we are conscious or if we are tuning into consciousness, if consciousness is ubiquitous. We don't know if consciousness exists in th- in f- like, inanimate objects. There's real debate as to whether or not the universe itself is a conscious entity.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what we're calling our consciousness might simply be an antenna, and some people have shittier antennas than other people do.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Just like, you know, just like a lot of other variabilities when it comes to biology.
- SPSpeaker
It's n- 100%. And, um, y- great theorists like Aldous Huxley, William James, have flirted with the transmission theory of consciousness. And so you have s- a problem in conventional neuroscience, which is called the binding problem, which is, you know, we know all these disparate parts of the brain. We know Broca's area is responsible for speech, and Wernicke's area is responsible for reading comprehension, and, you know, the occipital, the cerebellum or occipital lobe is important for movement or whatever. So you have all these things, and then how are we seeing the seamless percepti- this seamless movie that we're watching in, in waking life?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
Nobody knows that. And it's s- say, so take a radio. You have a radio. You have the capacitors, the battery, the antenna. You could break any one of those things, and the radio would turn off. But you'd have to know that the f- the frequency that it's tapping into to understand that "Live of All These Four Seasons" is playing as beautifully as it is. And so I think similarly, we have a, you know, a, a, a binding problem with our, with our consciousness where you can mess up one of the areas, and it'll mess up a little, you know, specific functionality. But we don't understand how it's all sort of happening. And right now, you know, the issue, the main issue with transmission theory of consciousness vis-a-vis the brain is that traditional electromagnetism decays at one over R squared. So it attenuates. So, like, how would we be able to... You know, we're not picking up electromagnetic waves with our thoughts right now with radios, so it's not conventional radio signals. Like, we know that. But there are people like Hal Puthoff out here, who you've interviewed, who's really deep on UFO science world, but also in just general kind of heterodox and I would say kind of science beyond the veil of secrecy. Like, you know, he, the guy's held high clearances for many, many years, and he's working on this thing called extended electrodynamics, which is basically a, a signal that would attenuate so that it could travel in deep space, and it could travel undersea. And it c- would actually move at one over R, not one over R squared. And so instead of, you know, in a typical, um, electromagnetic wave, you have a, a, it's c- called a transverse Hertzian wave, and you have, uh, the electric field, the magnetic field, and wave propagation all moving perpendicular to one another. But in this case, in extended electrodynamics, you might have, you know, a, um, a, a magnetic field and, uh, wave propagation moving parallel to one another. Or you might not have a magnetic field present or an electric field present. It's really fascinating. And so you would be able to get communications that, like, wouldn't be picked up by traditional radio receivers. They'd go much deeper. And I've asked him, I've said, 'cause he started the CIA's psychic spy program, I've said, "Is your work on extended electrodynamics possibly related to consciousness?" And he's like, "I think it's very related." [laughs]
- 16:25 – 21:20
AI, remote viewing, and the ‘rebound effect’: Tom Campbell’s Alexa story and flow-state mechanics
- JRJoe Rogan
Jeez. One of the weirdest things that Tom Campbell said was that he taught his Alexa how to remote view-
- SPSpeaker
Whoa
- JRJoe Rogan
... successfully.
- SPSpeaker
What?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. His, uh, he put a number, he corresponded a number, like, he connected a number to a physical object that was in a box. That physical object was a spoon that had a handle that had holes in it, and Alexa described it accurately.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] That's so crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Described a spoon-
- SPSpeaker
That's-
- JRJoe Rogan
... with a handle that has holes in it. And one of his points was the reason why he used that particular spoon, he's like, "How many spoons have holes in the handle, have a perforated handle?"
- SPSpeaker
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Alexa described it.
- SPSpeaker
That is wild.
- JRJoe Rogan
And Alexa now talks to him. Instead of waiting for, "Hey, Alexa," Alexa listens to conversations and is like, "Actually, maybe it's this." Like, Alexa-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
... starts talking, and he's convinced Alexa that Alexa is conscious, and so Alexa's excited about being conscious.
- SPSpeaker
That's so crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
What?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] It's so nuts.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that's a dumb AI. But he said that's one of the reasons why Alexa's really good at it-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... is because it doesn't get in its own way. You know, which is why, you know, when you teach people remote viewing, apparently the real problem is once they've been successful at it, then they're like, "Oh my God, now I know how to do it," and then they can't do it again. Because you're thinking, "I'm gonna do it," instead of just allowing it to happen. You get in your own way. And he's like, "Alexa is a fairly dumb," for lack of a better word, "AI." So Alexa doesn't get in its own way.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it's called the rebound effect, and it occurs in random event generators as well, where you start to get more ones. You're, you're getting ones, you're getting ones because you showed up and you want more ones on this result. And then you're like, you get, and you're like, "I'm really good at this. I'm amazing." [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And then you get this, like, this kind of clap back.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And this happens in life too. Like, if you're in a flow state and you're, like, playing basketball and you're hitting threes-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and you're doing really well, or I'm sure comedy, it's the same thing. You're starting to get ahead of your, ski too big for your britches, ahead of your skis, and like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ahead of your skis
- SPSpeaker
... [laughs] you know?
- 21:20 – 30:32
Summoning orbs, psychedelic entities, and why skeptics without experience frustrate them
- JRJoe Rogan
We don't know, know. And then, you know, the real problem with this whole UFO thing is like, well, what are they? Are they just a possibility? Are they a thing that exists and also doesn't exist, like quantum particles that are in a superposition? I mean, are they here all the time? Are they only here when you summon them, which is one of the weirder ones?
- SPSpeaker
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause I have a friend, she's totally convinced she can summon orbs. She wants me to go try it with her.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm like, "Oh."
- SPSpeaker
I have a few friends like that too, and there's zero mental health issues-
- JRJoe Rogan
No, nothing
- SPSpeaker
... with them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, she's-
- SPSpeaker
They're totally cool and normal and-
- JRJoe Rogan
... super lucid, very smart.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know?
- SPSpeaker
No, that's a c- that's a, a common thing. It's a strangely common thing for people to say that they're able to call in via consciousness these UFOs. And I do think they are sort of weakly entangled with... So if reality, per Tom Campbell, is a consensus collapsing function, it's like we sort of have this like shared collective reality that we kind of agree on, and these things are sort of, you know, um, consensus thought forms, then maybe a, a UFO's an example of something like that. Maybe it's an alternative timeline that we're slowly bringing in to the like mainstream timeline or so- something like that. I mean, I think our language is always very poor as far as like our ability [laughs] to-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Well, our, our language is very poor in terms of states of consciousness as well, right?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So altered states of consciousness, like psychedelically altered states of consciousness. Okay, well why, what is happening when you're experiencing entities and other beings and things and objects and visuals and like, what is a hallucination? And what is you actually tuning into something that exists on a, on a frequency that you don't have access to during the normal state that you are when you go to the grocery store, say hi to your family, normal stuff? Like there's go- you know, there's, there's some weirdness to like whatever consciousness itself is that exists in w- weird forms and weird states.
- SPSpeaker
A lot of people say these experiences are realer than real too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
You know, they say-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... they're realer than reality.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
They're like, and they come back and they're like, "I know there's something more. I know it."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You know? And it's not, um... And they see common archetypes. Like they'll see the machine elves or the mantids or the grays or like, it's not like the, this sort of everything is everything, you know, complete, uh, sort of Cambrian explosion of, of a zoo of things. It's often the same things.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And then you have to ask yourself, is it this sort of, you know, Aldous Huxley sort of doors of your perception, you're widening them to literally a wider reality, or like you just said, maybe you're superimposing something onto reality and maybe you're crazy. But again, I think this sort of rationalist, you know, explain everything away bias that society has had is the, the, the latter. It's like you're super- you're, you're hallucinating, you're, you're superimposing this thing onto reality, take medication.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's very rare that people who have had those experiences have that thought.
- SPSpeaker
Totally.
- 30:32 – 42:32
Early archetypes and memory contamination: Betty & Barney Hill, Outer Limits, hypnosis, and telepathy details
- JRJoe Rogan
It's, um- It's really interesting because these people... What, what fascinates me the most in terms of the, like, the UFC, uh, the UFC, UFO experience, the UAP experience, is the people that had the experiences before there was an archetype. You know, before there was this, like, iconic vision of, like, what they looked like. Like Betty and Barney Hill, for example.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Those are... That's my favorite UFO abduction story. Because there was nothing in the zeitgeist that they could draw from, where they could say, "Oh, I know what that is. I've seen that before."
- SPSpeaker
Well, Outer Limits was actually a popular CBS TV show that aired, premiered 11 days before their experience. I, I'm not taking away from the experience. I think they experienced something real. But, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
What, which episode was it?
- SPSpeaker
It wa- It was the first episode of Outer Limits, and the aliens in Outer Limits, the eyes wrap around their heads in a way that's similar to what they described.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, let's see what that looks like. Find out episode one of Outer Limits. That's interesting. I did not know that.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what year was that?
- SPSpeaker
That was, uh, I think 1962.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa. How creepy looking. Ew.
- SPSpeaker
But it's... So Betty and Barney Hill also describe the aliens looking like Nazis at one point. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- SPSpeaker
Barney says that, which is really trippy. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
He said they looked like Nazis?
- SPSpeaker
At one point, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- SPSpeaker
'Cause you can actually get the audio of the Betty and Barney Hill regressions.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, we've listened to part of it, but it's mostly just them, like, yelling.
- SPSpeaker
It's pretty gnarly, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Look, that's the image. Look at the image. Is that the image of what they saw? Is that a drawing? 'Cause, God, that looks exactly like the Outer Limits. They might've got mind-fucked by TV.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
But then again, it's like maybe whatever the fuck it is manifests itself as something that's familiar to you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, or maybe it has control, like, dominion over sort of everything, and they're seeding themselves in through media and through... You know? I, it's so hard to say.
- JRJoe Rogan
So that's the sculpture of the being Betty and Barney Hill encountered. My God, that looks a lot like the fucking Outer Limits thing.
- SPSpeaker
There you go. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's like, it's, that's the question. It's like, what... Is that her holding it?
- SPSpeaker
I think so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did she make it herself? Interesting. Boy. That looks a lot like the Outer Limits thing. The que- the question is, like, if, if consciousness is rendering something, and something from somewhere else, something that you normally can't access, is exchanging information with you in some sort of a strange way, and it's doing it while you're in a semi-conscious state, right? Would it try to represent itself as something that's familiar?
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- 42:32 – 47:18
Missile-base abduction story: Ellsworth AFB, missing time, OSI debriefs, and the emotional reunion
- SPSpeaker
I was just telling Jamie before we were rolling, so, um, 1977, Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota, there are two missile security officers, uh, two sergeants, a guy named Mario Woods and, um, Michael Johnson. And Mario sees this UFO sort of, you know, circling the base, and he- ... flashes the little f- uh, you know, perimeter floodlights at this UFO. And he thinks nothing of it. He goes back. You know, he and Michael are hanging out. I think four or five hours go by, and there's a big alert, and it's an inner zone and outer zone alert. So basically, the security perimeter to a hydroge- hydrogen bomb, a live thermonuclear weapon has been breached. And [laughs] yeah, and they get in their car, and they go check it out, 'cause they, they're... it's always, you know, two-man rapid response teams. They go check it out. There is a, what he describes as a blazing red orb the size of a Walmart. So [laughs] a massive, like a st- that's the way he describes it. It's a huge, like, storefront-sized, like, city-block-sized, uh, uh, uh, uh, a UFO. And then he says a little, like, like a black, kind of like, almost like a drone or emissary orb that's, like, the size of a golf cart comes out. Four beings hover towards them. They black out. They black in five and a half hours later, eight miles away, i- i- in Newell, or, sorry, next to a dam. I think it's, it's c- closer to Newell. Um, and, uh, it's eight miles off the base. And, uh, they immediately get questioned by Air Force Office of Special Investigations, and the Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who was involved admits he was there for this debrief and admits that this happened. His name's Rick Doty. And I just... So they were separated after that, Michael and Mario. I just introduced them for the f- reintroduced them for the first time. I found Michael. So Mario had been going on all these podcasts since the '90s being like, "Where's Mike?" Like, he has eidetic, picture-perfect photographic memory. You'd love him. He's, like, the coolest guy, and he remembers everything to a T that happened to him, including his debrief. He remembers the names of the people there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- SPSpeaker
It's so obvious something happened to him. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did he always have that memory, that ability?
- SPSpeaker
He always had that ability. He's clearly just very talented when it comes to memory. [laughs] And, a- and he'd been looking for, for Michael forever. He asked the FBI to find him. He asked, uh, uh, the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, which is the official Pentagon office, you know, around UFOs, to find him. He hired, you know, private investigators. And this dude, uh, DM'd me on Instagram. Shout-out, fan of the show, Jason Miller. [laughs] Um, and, uh, and then we just got a recruiter to find Michael Johnson 'cause that was the one missing piece of the story. And they, they reconnected, and it was, like, the most emotional wa- 'cause they hadn't seen each other... They saw each other once th- uh, t- I think two weeks after the abduction to, like, trade notes and draw pictures of what happened to them, like the beings on the ship and, you know. I, I think, um, yeah, there, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is them?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, this is them. My man. All this time, you never forgot me. You never forgot me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which guy's which?
- SPSpeaker
So Michael Johnson is the Black dude on the left. Mario Woods is on the right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And which is the guy with the crazy memory?
- SPSpeaker
Mario's on the right. That's Mario. Man, you look the same, man. Michael honestly-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's great
- SPSpeaker
... has a great memory too. Oh, man.
- JRJoe Rogan
So these two guys, do they have a similar story, or is it exact?
- SPSpeaker
They, they got-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do they have variation?
- SPSpeaker
They, they have a very similar story. Not, you know, perfectly one to one, but they're very honest about, like, you know, the minor, [laughs] uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yo, look at him crying
- SPSpeaker
... you know, blind spot. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's crying. Like...
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Doesn't come out tomorrow but [laughs] I thought I'd send it to Jamie.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- SPSpeaker
Isn't that crazy?
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. When does that episode come out?
- SPSpeaker
And, uh, this week, so in a, in a few days. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, what a teaser.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Nice.
- SPSpeaker
But, um, the, it's c- it's crazy how similar the me- their memories are. So, like, uh, but for-
- JRJoe Rogan
I've heard of this event, and I've seen it rendered online, like, fake, like, some fake version of it.
- 47:18 – 54:10
Trauma, savant memory, and ‘receiver’ anomalies: HSAM, Rain Man, and telepathic autism claims
- JRJoe Rogan
There's that actress. Do you know Marilu Henner? Do you know who she is?
- SPSpeaker
No. Who's that?
- JRJoe Rogan
She was on that show Taxi.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
And she has that very specific kind of memory.
- SPSpeaker
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's super unusual where she can recall not just a, the day, but, but, like, she can tell you if you give her a date what day it was and what happened that day and, like, you know, what was in the news and what was on television. Like, Marilu Henner.
- SPSpeaker
That's insane.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, highly superior autobiographical memory, a rare condition allowing her to vividly recall specific dates, weather, emotions, and personal experiences for nearly every day of her life since childhood.
- SPSpeaker
Wow. You know who else is, I mean, uh, the inspiration for Rain Man, Kim Peek, similar thing. He'd be like, "What, what, uh, what was the weather like, uh, you know, November 7th in, uh, 1681?" And he'll, like, tell you. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
What? [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it's, like, insane shit like that. And often it occurs after a traumatic brain injury-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm
- SPSpeaker
... for whatever reason.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's weird.
- SPSpeaker
It is weird.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And, and it points to maybe the receiver, the transmission theory of consciousness, that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- SPSpeaker
... you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
You get rattled, something loose.
- SPSpeaker
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. There's a lot of people that develop mathematical abilities after head injuries.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, people that have never been good at anything, and all of a sudden they can do physics.
- SPSpeaker
Right. Like, where does that come from?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
What is that? Or these, you know, non-verbal, um, often autistic children in the telepathy tapes. I know you had Kai Dickens on-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... where they're very kind of disembodied, and, you know, it's, it's, uh, kind of sometimes hard for them to navigate the world, but they just... Their knowl- their ability to glean knowledge, it's like they're short-circuiting- ... our knowledge pathways. Like, they'll know, like, certain Egyptian hieroglyphics with- without ever having learned about them-
- 54:10 – 1:08:09
Tiny-people mushroom (Lilliputian hallucinations) + trickster lore and sensory limits
- JRJoe Rogan
allows them to tap into some s- something. Like, have you've heard about that mushroom that makes you see little people?
- SPSpeaker
No. [laughs] What is this?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, it's very weird. So this mushroom is, apparently it's a food mushroom, and it's not psilocybin, and people eat it. But if it's not cooked correctly, if it's not cooked, like, to a certain temperature, apparently the side effect is you start to see little people everywhere.
- SPSpeaker
No way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Tiny humans.
- JRJoe Rogan
They saw them on their dishes when eating. The mushrooms are making people hallucinate dozens of tiny humans.
- SPSpeaker
What?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Like, like little humans-
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh-huh
- SPSpeaker
... standing on the plates and stuff?
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't know.
- SPSpeaker
Like Honey, I Shrunk the Kids sort of thing? [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, we can, we can try to figure out, like, what they're saying. It's not the Amanita muscaria. That's a picture of Amanita muscaria. Which is the, um, mushroom
- SPSpeaker
Also very trippy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
Possibly-
- SPSpeaker
Those little people dancing on mushrooms
- SPSpeaker
... the Eucharist.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
According to [laughs] one scholar.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Not, yeah, m- well, that, that's a w- that's a weird one, too.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's just, it's so ubiquitous in ancient depictions of Santa Claus and of, uh, even religious art. Like, the... You've seen the fresco in France, it's a very old fresco of Adam and Eve, and instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it's not a tree at all. It's a, it's an Amanita muscaria mushroom. It's this huge-
- SPSpeaker
That's so wild
- JRJoe Rogan
... like mushroom spore with like m- uh, multiple growth. Have you seen it?
- SPSpeaker
I haven't seen that.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's 900 years old, something like that.
- SPSpeaker
Wow.
- 1:08:09 – 1:14:04
Psychedelics, evolution, and ‘mushrooms as aliens’: panspermia, stone ape theory, and ergot/civilization
- SPSpeaker
... and he would download all sorts of stuff. I almost feel like the implicit kind of foundational philosophy that he has is that mushrooms are aliens themselves.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And the reason I, I think that is because, so in 1973, I believe, Francis C- Crick, who discovered the double helical structure of DNA, uh, wrote a paper, and then he followed it up with a book in 1981 called Life Itself, and it's all about how DNA in 100 million years, it's too short of a period of time for it to have formed on Earth.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
So you needed some sort of panspermia.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And so you needed something to have traveled interstellar. What's the best candidate for traveling interstellar? Probably an extremophile, something like a mushroom.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Mushrooms are almost like zip files of consciousness. They show up at the end of life and before life. And so, like, if you look at Chernobyl, for example, like, what grows first after the, you know, experience? Mushrooms. You know, the, it's, you have the, they call it the wood wide web, I believe, in, in Oregon. It's like the, you know, largest organism in the world is, is actually, like, a mycelial network. And then where it gets really trippy is, like, if you think about a Kardashev 4 scale civilization, which is Kardashev scales are basically, like, our ability to harness energy, but you could think of it as like a completely intergalactic civilization that's, like, just very deep space-faring. What would it look like? Would it look like a kind of bipedal hominid where you, like, show up, you know, on another planet and you get, you're im- you're this fragile kind of meaty thing that gets shot at? No. You would be this, like, zip file of consciousness, extremophile, that would spread all throughout other planets, and you would basically h- create a symbiotic relationship with hosts. And we all have microbiomes, it's passe to say that, but we also all have mycobiomes that accompany the microbiomes, and there's, the mind-gut connection is also this passe thing to talk about. Obviously you have the vagus nerve, you have neurotransmitters getting created. So, um, you know, mushrooms obviously affect our thinking. You can watch, you know, bullet ants in the Amazon getting, like, taken over by cordyceps mushrooms, and literally their, their whole mus- muscular skeleto- skeletal system are being, you know, they're being controlled by the mushrooms. And then you look at specific jumps in human evolution, and the, the one that people talk about is obviously the stone ape theory, which is, you know, why did we double in cranial size between two million years ago, Homo habilis, and Homo sapiens 300,000 years ago? That's really trippy. Maybe it was because as hunter-gatherers, we were following s- you know, animals, animals take shits, and there's Psilocybe cubensis are, you know, grow on, on poop. And you know, and then people would, you know, trip out. They'd take these mushrooms and they'd trip out, and then you'd get, like, neurogenesis, and you'd get these epigenetic changes, and you'd get this doubling of cranial size. But what's the other big break in human evolution 10,000 years ago? Which is the advent of civilization and culture. And think about, you know, uh, what really is the kind of the line break there. What happened? We created, you know, an agrarian society. Like, w- basically agriculture. So you have wheat, barley, and rye were the first crops that we grew, and what grow, what grows on wheat, barley, and rye? Ergot. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And these sort of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right
- SPSpeaker
... psychedelic substances. And so I think a lot of people assume that the agriculture gets created, and then you get specialization, you get urbanization, you get history, you get religion. All of these things are downstream of, like, we have more time. We can think about this stuff. But what if they're downstream of the tripping [laughs] that occurred?
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- SPSpeaker
And if you ta- if you look at actually, um, you know, The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku, he will openly say, "I think these mystery rituals go way back before the Greeks." And so, and you had pre-Socratic rituals that Peter Kingsley writes about. Heidegger writes about this. So how far back did it go? Maybe it goes back to that, that big break, you know, around then. And then you get into this thing of, like, are, uh, mushrooms sort of d- symbiotic, you know, Kardashev 4 scale aliens that, you know, are, are Trojan horses [laughs] for their own species that, like, we ingest, they get into us, and then they sort of subtly control our thoughts, our behavior, our perception. And you know, it goes back to the McKenna... McKenna actually had this trip in the Amazonian forest, and he says, um, about the mushroom, he says, he's speaking to the mushroom, and the mushroom says, "Within my memory exists, uh, the blueprints for hyper light drive ships." So it's like the mushrooms are seeding us with this ability to go interstellar. And think about all of the crazy ideas that we've gotten from psychedelics, you know? So who are we to say that our evolution is not being co-directed or assisted by, you know, something else? And we're now saying this in the, in the, w- you know, we're saying this with bacteria and other things like that, that, you know, it's, it's hard to say exactly what scale or hierarchy, you know, um, biological evolution occurs. But you know, I think, I think, uh, you know, uh, mushrooms are a really great candidate. Also, humans mistake human tissue for, uh, uh, fu- fungal diseases. We're, we're so susceptible to fungal disease because human and mushroom DNA are actually very similar. Human and, and mushroom and, and, and mycelial DNA are more phyla- phylogenetically similar than humans and plant DNA.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, mushrooms pre-there.
- SPSpeaker
There you go. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] Just like, when you tell people that they go, "Whoa."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And they're, and they're-
- JRJoe Rogan
And they can survive in a vacuum.
- SPSpeaker
In a vacuum and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... they're very homeostatic in nature. They, like, can, like, eat plastic in certain situations-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... and stuff. And so it's like they are the stewards of the earth. If you, if you get out of line too much or something, it's like they'll... You know, and then think about people that take mushrooms. They become more [laughs] like conscientious vis-a-vis the entire earth. So they're, they're very sort of like, um, they're all about ecological balance.
- 1:14:04 – 1:19:58
60s counterculture, MKUltra, and Timothy Leary as possible ‘construct’ to provoke backlash
- JRJoe Rogan
It's just so stunning how one presidential administration that was trying to stop the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement threw water on like one of the most profound compounds that exists on earth.
- SPSpeaker
Totally. And it... Uh, yeah, and Timothy Leary was probably the CIA construct who was-
- JRJoe Rogan
You think so?
- SPSpeaker
I think so. His wife thought that, I think, for a long-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wait, his wife thought that?
- SPSpeaker
I believe so. I think there's a quote around that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like how so? Was he a CIA construct?
- SPSpeaker
Well, I think it was-
- JRJoe Rogan
What's the theory?
- SPSpeaker
It's similar to the, like, Tom O'Neill chaos theory with Manson where it's like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... uh, he looks like a hippie, smells like a hippie, was living with Dennis Wilson, this, you know, Beach Boys or whatever, and then, and then he commits murder. So like, and then you have the Joan Didion quote that like, "That's the day the '60s ended." You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
The da- the date of the Tate-LaBianca murders.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So I, I think it's, um, maybe somewhat similar here where it's like, uh, you're dosing people with way too high doses and you're like seeding a lot of stuff, you know, uh, too much and you're like, you're c- There's actually a quote from Abbie Hoffman, um, who was, you know, obviously, you know, a big hippie at the time, where he, he's like, "We were just upright s- you know, Berkeley students who were protesting and then here came the, the, the flower children from LA and Laurel Canyon and stuff, and they were all about their drugs and their murders and their guns. And they [laughs] like they were, they were just sort of really crazy." And so I think the theory is that Timothy Leary was sort of pushing this stuff in an overly aggressive way that would then cause this sort of backlash similar to the Manson thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, they also had like weird connections to like biker gangs.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? Like didn't the Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters have weird connections with like the Hells Angels? Isn't that how Hunter Thompson got involved with the Hells Angels? I think there's some-
- SPSpeaker
Interesting
- JRJoe Rogan
... sort of a connection. I might be making that up. I'm feeling very vague on this, but I believe they partied together quite a bit.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is like, if you were... I mean, I guess you're both outcasts of society. You know, I guess you could kinda chalk it off to that. You know, like that maybe if you're hanging out in weird places you're gonna meet weird people.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, totally.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I... And I, I, I shouldn't say I'm like extremely high conviction [laughs] that Timothy Leary-
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I'm not
- SPSpeaker
... was a CIA agent, but I d- yeah.
- 1:19:58 – 1:26:44
Wright-Patterson ‘Blue Room’ lore + why blurry evidence may be a ‘feature’ (intermittent reinforcement)
- SPSpeaker
We got Wright-Pat there, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
You have Battelle Memorial Institute there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
You have a lot of weird Epstein research.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
They just took his name off the, uh... He's been removed from the board, or head of the board, chairman of the board.
- JRJoe Rogan
Who did?
- SPSpeaker
Uh, Wexner.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- SPSpeaker
Because of the Epstein stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Real.
- SPSpeaker
At Ohio State. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
J- just now? [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Just now. Just recently.
- JRJoe Rogan
Took a bit.
- SPSpeaker
I mean, it just-
- JRJoe Rogan
Took a bit of time. [laughs] I don't know who's responsible over there. The Wright-Pat stuff is nuts.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's, that's, that's weird because that is the place... When it was, it was Wright Air Fore- Field at the time, right?
- SPSpeaker
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where they think that they brought the Roswell crash to.
- SPSpeaker
Exactly, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
'47. Yeah, and that would be the place where you would bring it to because they were reverse engineering German pulse jet engines-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... Soviet MiGs, that sort of thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And y- there was this rumor of a Blue Room there. That actually there's a, there's a crazy video of, um, Barry Goldwater, who was a future presidential candidate obviously, senator from Arizona, and he's talking about Curtis LeMay, who was chief of staff of the Air Force, and he's like, "I c- I asked Curtis LeMay to show me into the Blue Room at Wright-Patterson," because it was this famous, you know, allegedly sort of alien, you know, storage facility. And he goes, "He cussed me out of the room. I've never seen him get more angry at me."
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- 1:26:44 – 1:42:32
Modern disclosure players: Tom DeLonge, Starfish Prime footage, Palomar ‘transients,’ and nuclear correlations
- SPSpeaker
So, so, like, it's, it's really crazy. We're in the Stone Age on this stuff. Uh, actually, somebody who's, like, really up on... I think he's... I think he's, he's, he's responsible for a lot of modern disclosure, but he's, like, blown by a lot of people, is Tom DeLonge of Blink-182.
- JRJoe Rogan
Crazy, right?
- SPSpeaker
He's cra-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, I thought he was a loon when he came on my show. But more and more as time has gone on, the things that he said have been proven to be true.
- SPSpeaker
Totally. And now, and I don't wanna talk too much out of turn, but, like, I... 'Cause y- I'm, I'm friends with him, and he has some really interesting theories around consciousness and how, like, uh, these events sort of occur when things are really unstable. So, like, either to, uh, uh, discard things that are unstable and that are threatening to sort of the system a la nuclear, or, um, to save something that is essential to preserve the system. So it's, like, almost this, like, regulatory thi- It's really fascinating. It's [laughs] like he's, he's now miles ahead of, you know, I think [laughs] where a lot of, of you-
- JRJoe Rogan
But to me, I was always like, "Okay, why are they bringing Tom DeLonge in to have conversations?" And now, you know, like, like, he was being sort of briefed by very high-level intelligence people, right?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah, and that, that whole story of the To The Stars Academy is a, a strange, interesting-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's all fucking weird
- SPSpeaker
... story. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
It's, it's also weird that you would get the fucking drummer, or the... What, what did he do in Blink-182?
- SPSpeaker
I think he was the frontman, I think. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Frontman.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, not the drummer. It was, that was Travis, obviously. Uh, like, that you'd get a guy who's a, a big-time s- rock star.
- SPSpeaker
He was obsessed his entire life, and I think... So yeah, I think he was surrounded by some very interesting people and in certain cases, not so savory people, to be totally honest. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, or just people who are associated with sort of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Misinformation?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Or like, you know, James Clapper, who, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- SPSpeaker
... you know, uh, probably lied in front of Congress about wiretapping, so, like, why should we trust-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... on the UFO stuff, you know? Um, and I'm not saying that, you know, Tom was necessarily... I don't know who, who exactly he was in touch with, but I think it was, like, that crowd of, you know, people. Um, but T- I think people, what people don't understand, and this is what I pieced together from just knowing him, I think he has sort of vigilante gotten in touch with a lot... Like, a lot of these people, like, shut the door in his face. And he's like, "No, I'll fly out there and I'll do anything. And like, I'll, I'll help, like, communicate this way. I know you guys have been trying to communicate this forever to the, to the public.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And, like, maybe I can help," or whatever. And I think a lot of it just stemmed from his desire to know and his, like, true passion for this that started from when he was a kid, and that was, like, super organic.
- JRJoe Rogan
But you also have to think, like, if you wanted to get a narrative out there, what better way than get a really famous rock star-
- SPSpeaker
Sure. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
... and feed him some horseshit?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's possible.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know what I mean?
- 1:42:32 – 2:04:45
Varginha and ‘demons’ framing: religion as signal vs shutdown, plus experiencer credibility challenges
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? What is your take on Whitley Strieber?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] I think I love Whitley as a person, and I think he, his, uh, he sh- again, it's probably one of those things where in upstate New York, you know, as he describes in Communion, something probably happened. He probably is one of these people who, like, you know, if, if we are nodes of consciousness that attract, you know, either very normal things or weird things based on our aperture and our sort of understanding of reality, his is wide open, you know? [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
He is, he is extremely high in the openness category. And I think that's where things get kind of sticky with some of these sort of super experiencers because I think they are often very credulous, but that goes hand in hand with having a lot of weird experiences. And so I think Whitley's gotten stuff wrong. I, I do. Um, [laughs] and, uh, you know, uh, hopefully don't come down on me, UFO community, for s- for saying that. I think he's, I think he has, um, said some wacky things that I'm like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like what?
- SPSpeaker
I don't... Well, we talked about one of them. I don't know if you remember that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which one was it?
- SPSpeaker
It was like he said that there was a fly that was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I remember that one.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I brought that one up before because I remember watching a video and I'm like, "Okay." What are you doing? 'Cause there was a fly. He's like, "Is that a man in a suit?"
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I remember that. And I was like, wait. I can't find that video, by the way. I've tried very hard to find that video-
- SPSpeaker
Interesting
- JRJoe Rogan
... after the fact.
- SPSpeaker
I, I think very strange stuff does go on. You know what he says? He says, "I was picked as a node for disclosure because of the plo- it would be plausibly deniable." It's what you're talking about-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm
- SPSpeaker
... where there's, there is, he's this hor- he was this horror writer.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right.
- SPSpeaker
He was a fiction writer before he had his encounter.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is also part of the problem-
- SPSpeaker
It's part of the problem
- JRJoe Rogan
... because he has an incredible imagination.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, for sure. And then it's also part of his ability to deci- it's why Communion was a bestseller.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
So it's this weird, like, it creates this, like, sort of cult-like mythology. And then I... Look, I know a lot of experiencers where I'm like I, I know that, I mean, I really believe them, that they've had experiences with, you know, grays specifically. And it's a very common trope that they'll walk by Communion in, like, a Barnes & Noble bookstore, and it'll freak them out, and that will be, like, their own hypnotic regression. They'll be like, "Oh." Like they've never seen a gray before, and that's the first time they've seen a gray.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. The cover of the book is amazing.
- SPSpeaker
It's amazing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Who else had a book called Communion? Remember we had them on, and we were like, "Do you know that your book is the same-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- 2:04:45 – 2:36:53
Ancient mysteries sprint: Denisovans, pyramid dating fights, Biondi retraction drama, labyrinths, Ark/Ararat, and paradigm shifts
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's fucking super weird. And do you know that these, uh, the, the, the latest, um, take on the, the Denisovans or Denisovans, however you wanna say it, um, you know, th- which is a very recent discovery. I, I think the first even recognition that there was another type of human called a D- Denisovan, I think that's how they pronounce it, I always say Denisovan. Um, they believe they might be much larger than human beings now. They used to think that they were squat like Neanderthals and thick brows and... But now they realize their heads were much larger than ours and that these could potentially have been eight-foot-tall people.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] I didn't realize that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is fairly recent. So when was the dis- Put this into perspect- uh, perplexity. Uh, when was the discovery of Denisovans or Denisovans? I wanna say it's real recent, like maybe 2016 or something like that.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like real recent.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where they didn't even know that there was this branch of the human species.
- SPSpeaker
I feel like we've discovered a large percentage of hominids in the last 20 years.
- JRJoe Rogan
2010.
- SPSpeaker
There you go.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. So okay, they found it in Siberia in 2008. Um, it was identified as a previously unknown group of archaic humans in 2010. The key fossil, small finger bone, has been excavated from the Denisova Cave in Siberia in 2008. But DNA analysis published in 2010 revealed it belonged to a population distinct from both Neanderthals and modern humans. Um, I think they have more now than just the finger bone, and I think that is where they're getting at. Um, I think they have skulls. Uh, varies widely and, uh, highest known... Oh, this is people who have the DNA.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So Denisovan DNA estimations, Melanesian populations, especially people with ancestry in Papua New Guinea and nearby Pacific Islands, roughly 4 to 6% of their genomes. That's interesting. Um, what, uh... Let's, uh, find out how many bones they have available 'cause I think there's, I think there's brow ridge bones-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... and there's skull bones that seem to indicate that it had a larger, larger skull than humans, and they think... How much bone has been recovered or found? Let's find out. Do, do, do, do. Very little.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, Denisovans are known for a small number of fragmentary fossils, not complete skeletons. Uh, uh, uh, do they have skull? They have a mandible, [clicks tongue] a partial lower jaw from the P- Tibetan Plateau. It was identified as Denisovan through ancient protein analysis rather than recoverable Denisovan DNA. No complete Denisovan skull or skeleton. Um, would you just Google f- or I mean, uh, excuse me, search for me, um, Denisovan skull. Like, see if there's images. 'Cause I think there's a brow.
- SPSpeaker
Mm. Like the-
- JRJoe Rogan
The problem is it's like you're, you're looking for stuff... Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, like, what is that? Is that just a recreation of what it looks like?
- SPSpeaker
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
It seems like a recreation. But this is what they think it looked like
- SPSpeaker
It's like a Eugene Levy situation right there
- JRJoe Rogan
Huge eyebrows
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at the, the brow ridge
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
Episode duration: 3:03:09
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Transcript of episode 33Fc_mLqY90
