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Joe Rogan Experience #2547 - Daniel Everett

Daniel Everett, PhD, is a linguist and college professor. He is the author of several books, including “Don’t Sleep, There Are Snakes: Life and Language in the Amazonian Jungle” and “How Language Began: The Story of Humanity’s Greatest Invention.” https://daneverettbooks.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at drinkag1.com/joerogan Use code ROGAN at https://BlueChew.com to get 10% OFF + Free Overnight Shipping on your first order.

Joe RoganhostDaniel Everettguest
Aug 27, 20262h 37mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:02 – 4:02

    From Hendrix, LSD, and teenage rebellion to becoming a Christian missionary

    1. JR

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music] We're rolling. Good to see you, sir.

    2. DE

      Good to be here.

    3. JR

      Thank you very much for doing this. I'm really excited to talk to you. I've been looking forward to this a lot.

    4. DE

      Thanks very much for having me.

    5. JR

      You have a very, very unique life story. Um, so I want, w- w- I wanna start with how did you be- you became ... Just lay, lay it out for people. What got me interested in you is you became a Christian missionary and then went to the jungle and met these people th- let me say this right, the Pirahã?

    6. DE

      Pirahã.

    7. JR

      Pirahã.

    8. DE

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      Pirahã. And stopped being a missionary and lived with them for how long?

    10. DE

      Well, uh, the total time that I lived with them is about eight years in the jungle with them o- over a period, but I've been working with them for 40 years. I go back a lot.

    11. JR

      Wow. And y- but you lived with them for eight years, and during that eight-year time period, you kind of ... Would you s- is it safe to say you're an atheist?

    12. DE

      Yes, it's safe to say that.

    13. JR

      And so, uh, f- let's take it back to the beginning. How'd you become a missionary? Were, did you come from a religious family?

    14. DE

      No, I came from a very unreligious family. I was, um, in fact, I was, uh, standing out in front of a Jimi Hendrix concert in 1968 trying to sell LSD to get in.

    15. JR

      [laughs]

    16. DE

      And, uh, and this guy that I knew from high school that was really straight-laced came up with his sister, and she was very cute. And so I went up to try to sell them some LSD. They didn't use drugs. And so I said, "Well, you got any change? I need to get some money to get into the concert." And I, I saw that she went to the same high school that I did. So, uh, after the concert, which she didn't like, but I loved, uh, I, I went to see her in high school. I went and sat by her during lunchtime and, uh, found out that she was a missionary and had been raised in Brazil. And that-

    17. JR

      Oh

    18. DE

      ... really intrigued me because it was the '60s and I was, you know, didn't wanna have just the typical US life, and living in the Amazon sounded really cool. But then I became, you know, a genuine, strong, believing Christian. Uh, went to Bible school. I did my undergraduate degree in Bible and theology, and I was an ordained minister in the Wesleyan Church and very active in church and, uh, was, preached on street corners and did all that kind of thing. Um-

    19. JR

      How did you make the, this transition from being a guy with a bag of acid in front of a c- a Jimi Hendrix concert to ...

    20. DE

      Well, her father, who w- had been a missionary now for 20 years, was the most influential person outside my family in my life. And he and I would sit up late at night talking. And, you know, I was 17, and I found everything he said to be very convincing and very interesting.

    21. JR

      Hm.

    22. DE

      But mainly I loved his stories of the jungle and what it was like to live in the jungle, and I wanted to do that. And I became a believer. Um, it was a gradual process. Well, actually, no, it wasn't that gradual. It was ... My father was just astounded. He said, "You know, from one minute I'm worrying about you getting arrested, and now you're going to church every Sunday with these people I don't even know." He wasn't that happy about it. Um-

    23. JR

      He'd rather you just get loaded in front of the Hendrix concert? [laughs]

    24. DE

      Yeah, he would have actually, because he was a heavy drinker and a construction worker-

    25. JR

      Oh

    26. DE

      ... and he considered that to be part of the masculine experience, you know?

    27. JR

      But acid? Was acid okay with him?

    28. DE

      I don't think he knew I was doing acid.

    29. JR

      Oh, okay.

    30. DE

      But he knew I was doing, you know, weed and, and things like that. But-

  2. 4:02 – 9:16

    Missionary prep: linguistics training and extreme jungle survival testing

    1. JR

      So, um, y- so you immediately, it seems like, go become a Christian, and, and then how long before you are actually doing missionary work in the jungle?

    2. DE

      Well, there's a lot of training you have to do. So first I had to do four years of college, uh, Bible and theology, and then I had to do some linguistics training. Um, and then, uh, not, not a graduate degree or anything like that, just some linguistics training from the missionary organization because I wanted to be a Bible translator.

    3. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    4. DE

      And then we did jungle training in southern Mexico, so we went to the jungles of Chiapas and had to do survival training and all of this.

    5. JR

      Whoa. What do you have to do there?

    6. DE

      Well, there are several phases to it. The family goes, and the family's part of it. But the hardest thing is, um, to really see how much you've learned, they take you on what's called survival hike, and they leave you alone for about a week in the jungle. You're not allowed to take any food or, uh, any supplies of any kind.

    7. JR

      For a week?

    8. DE

      Yeah, for a week or more. You don't know. It's gonna be at least a week. Uh, in my case it was about 10 days. Um, and, uh, you've gotta set up your camp how best you can, figure out how to get a fire going.

    9. JR

      Do they teach you how to do all this stuff?

    10. DE

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      They don't just, like, figure it out.

    12. DE

      This is, like, the final exam.

    13. JR

      Oh.

    14. DE

      So you've had-

    15. JR

      Okay

    16. DE

      ... you've had almost four months of training before they finally take you out on this survival.

    17. JR

      Do you have water?

    18. DE

      You, you have maybe a, a quart of water when you leave, but you're gonna be out there for 10 days, so you've gotta find water. So we learned which vines have water and how to cut the vines. We did have a machete, so I was able to jump up and cut a vine, uh, at the top first and then at the bottom. And-

    19. JR

      And no one's monitoring you? They're just leaving you out there, and they're not making sure you're okay?

    20. DE

      No, they just come along when the time's up, and s- if you're there, you're there, you know?

    21. JR

      Oh, boy.

    22. DE

      So-

    23. JR

      And if you're not, you're dead?

    24. DE

      You could be. Uh-

    25. JR

      So they're not even ... That's insane. [laughs]

    26. DE

      Yeah. Well, this is what happens when you live by faith. You know, you're, you're out there, um- And God's supposed to be supervising your training, but it's really rigorous training. So by the time I actually got to the Amazon, which was eight years after I converted, took that long, um, it felt like I was coming home. I wasn't surprised by things.

    27. JR

      Well, the training was good then. I mean, I would, I would imagine if you really want someone to be able to survive alone in the jungle, best way to do it is to test them by making them survive alone in the jungle. So that you get an actual version of the experience. It's not simulated. You're act- you actually are getting water from vines. What were you eating?

    28. DE

      Um, well, I learned different kinds of plants that you could eat.

    29. JR

      Boy.

    30. DE

      And then I learned how to make, um, with a stick, you know, with like to, you know, make a stick the size of a toothpick sharpened on both ends, and, and I did have some fishing line. I would attach that to that, and I was so proud of myself 'cause I brought up two fish that were about three inches long, and I ate those. And ma- most of the time, I ate plants and went hungry. So when I see the programs like Alone, um, I'm, that, that wouldn't bother me. That's the kinda stuff we had to do.

  3. 9:16 – 12:52

    Predators, hunting skills, and eating jaguar: what jungle danger looks like

    1. JR

      Yeah. Was it jaguars?

    2. DE

      I suspect that it could've been, although I didn't see it. I had my machete, which when I got to the Amazon and actually saw jaguars, I realized that would've been a pretty pathetic thing to try, uh, to go against a jaguar with a machete. They would rip your head off before you-

    3. JR

      Everybody likes to think they have a chance, though. [laughs]

    4. DE

      Yeah, yeah. But what I found out is jaguars, you know, they get up to 400 pounds, and they're the third biggest cat in the world after the lion and the tiger, and they often hunt in pairs.

    5. JR

      Oh, yeah.

    6. DE

      Uh, and so you don't, you wouldn't have a chance against a jaguar, unless you were one of the Pirahã. I've s- I know that guys alone by themselves have killed jaguars, but, uh-

    7. JR

      Really?

    8. DE

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      What are they using to kill a jaguar?

    10. DE

      Well, they're always with their bows and arrows. Um, I, I had-

    11. JR

      It's a bow and arrow range for a jaguar. That's crazy.

    12. DE

      Well, you better have it ready because if it-

    13. JR

      Yeah

    14. DE

      ... sneaks up on you. There, there's another group that I worked with for quite, quite a while, several months, called the Bana-wa, and they use poison darts and poisoned arrows. So there's this story of this guy, he went out hunting, um, and, uh, he, he reached a clearing in the jungle, and he saw a deer come out, running straight for him. And at first he was happy, and he was gonna kill the deer. Then he realized deers don't just come running out of the jungle towards people, and then right behind the deer came a jaguar. And, uh, the jaguar s- saw him, the guy, and he was bigger than the deer, so the jaguar just took off straight for him and jumped up. And the guy got his bow, his blowgun out in front of him. They, they, they're, they're about seven or eight feet long, these big blowguns, and it's, they're very sturdy. And the jaguar, he holds it away. The jaguar's back legs are tearing the s- meat off of his legs, and the jaguar's head just keeps snapping at his face, trying to get his face. And what saved his life was the jaguar jumped off to go around the back and try to get him from the back, but he had a poisoned arrow, and he stabbed the jaguar with it, and that hurts. And the jaguar started to run off, and then he shot it with a poisoned arrow. And-

    15. JR

      Phew.

    16. DE

      But he, it took, he fell. He passed out, and the fam- his family found him a couple of days later with his, uh, legs just infected and-

    17. JR

      Oh, God

    18. DE

      ... torn to pieces, but he survived.

    19. JR

      [sighs] And so these Pirahã, would they go hunt the jaguars?

    20. DE

      If they saw that it was, um, a danger, if, if a woman went out and a jaguar or a mountain lion scared her, the men would go out to kill it. So I've eaten jaguar. Uh-

    21. JR

      What does it taste like?

    22. DE

      Uh, well, um- This one was sort of, uh, this was a sick jaguar. But it's stringy meat. I mean, it's very muscly meat. It's not tender.

    23. JR

      It was a sick one?

    24. DE

      Yeah. They, that's how they wound up killing it, I, I found out later. I was really impressed, you know, they killed a jaguar. But ... And they have killed many jaguars, but this one turned out to be a sick jaguar, which is why he attacked the woman. Like-

    25. JR

      Like he was starving to death or something?

    26. DE

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he was starving.

    27. JR

      Mm.

    28. DE

      So the men killed it and ate it. But I did, my children were with me this whole time, so I told my children, I said, "Just remember who's eating whom out here." [laughs]

    29. JR

      There, uh, what, so do you remember what it tastes like?

    30. DE

      Well, it's a, it's a stringy meat. It's really hard to describe all the, all the tastes. Munching-

  4. 12:52 – 17:48

    A sharing economy with no food storage—until dams change everything

    1. JR

      Um, they don't preserve anything, right?

    2. DE

      No.

    3. JR

      They just kill things and cook them.

    4. DE

      Yeah. They, they don't, you know, s- many, many different groups smoke the meat or-

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm

    6. DE

      ... salt the meat if they have salt, uh, or dry it. B- And the Pitahays know how to do that. I don't know where they learn how to do it, because they never do it except if they wanna trade the meat with Brazilian boats who come up.

    7. JR

      Oh.

    8. DE

      But among themselves, they don't preserve any meat. Uh, you know, I was talking to a guy one time and, you know, "Why don't you preserve your meat?" And he says, "Oh, I preserve it in the belly of my brother." Uh, so-

    9. JR

      Ta-

    10. DE

      ... they share it. And if I get meat, I give you some. And if you get meat, you give me some. So why would I-

    11. JR

      Right. So there's no need to store and also, I guess it's very abundant. There's a lot of life where they live, like in terms of fish and game?

    12. DE

      There have been. Yeah, I mean, they live on this river, the Maici River, and they're the only humans that live along the river for almost 300 miles of the curvy river. And it's a-

    13. JR

      Wow

    14. DE

      ... relatively large river by US standards. In Brazil, it doesn't even make many of the maps. But it's a couple of hundred yards across, and in the rainy season it can be as much as 75 feet deep, 100 feet deep. Uh, so there's plenty of fish for them. In recent years, that's changed because the Brazilian government has allowed the construction of dams across various rivers. Not their river-

    15. JR

      Oh

    16. DE

      ... but they affect the water level so much that it's taken all the fish, most of the fish out of their river. So now they're starving, and this has led to conflict with Brazilians who live not too far away, and they've killed a few people stealing food from their farms and things.

    17. JR

      Oh, man. Can you imagine you just have this kind of harmonious existence with nature and someone just decides to make a dam? Like you've got it so dialed in that you don't need to preserve your food-

    18. DE

      Right

    19. JR

      ... because everyone's just like happy and eating fish right out of the river.

    20. DE

      Right. And you know, that's, um, they don't know where the dam is. They've never seen the dam. I told them that they built something that crosses the river like a wall and, um, they say, "Why do they do that?" And I said, "Well, they want electricity," which they barely understand. They've seen ... I have a generator. I, I never had one for the first 20 years I was working with them, but I eventually got a generator and they could see what electricity was. And I said, "So that's where they get the lights." Um, but they don't understand it and its effect. You know, it's, for the first time in their history, and they've been living there as far as I can tell for almost 300 years, um, on this one river. Um, for the first time in their history, they can't, um, be self-sufficient in protein.

    21. JR

      Phew. That's crazy. And how long g- ago did they build this dam?

    22. DE

      I think it was about 10 years ago. Um, but they didn't ... When it first went into operation, then it flooded the entire, lots of farmland, lots of settlements and things up on the Madeira. But what was shocking was that way downriver from the dam, it affected the water level so much that the, when their river, the Maici, goes to its lowest point, um, in the dry season, there's still only a few places where you can see the bottom of the river. Most of the places, even when it's at its lowest, you can't see the bottom of the river. But in the last couple of years, it's gotten so low you can walk across.

    23. JR

      Oh, wow.

    24. DE

      So, and the fish don't stay there.

    25. JR

      So what are these people eating?

    26. DE

      Well, they, uh, go hunting, which they don't like to do. But of course when the, when the fish are gone and when the river's gone, uh, you lose a lot of the game from the jungle. So they have to go, instead of going a mile into the jungle, they have to go many miles into the jungle, and they're still not successful. So it's busting up communities. Some people are moving out of their normal area to other areas to try to, you know, back on the, on bigger rivers, but then that means they're surrounded by Brazilians and they're no longer leading the life that they used to lead.

    27. JR

      Hmm. So when they move into these civilization areas, are they integrating or are they trying to like stay as a tribe removed from urban society? Like how are they doing it?

    28. DE

      Well, up until about five years ago, um, they would never have thought about integrating. They would live in like ghettos. If they, if they were out near some town, they would live in the jungle away from the town because that whole part of Brazil is covered in jungle. Even the cities are bordered by jungle.

    29. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    30. DE

      Uh, but nowadays because there's no food anywhere, they're trying to integrate more and they're trying to learn Portuguese and, um, uh, it's, uh, it's a very unfortunate, uh, situation for them right now.

  5. 17:48 – 20:05

    Why the Pirahã? An ‘unrelated’ language challenge and first contact in 1977

    1. JR

      God, that's such a bummer. That sucks so hard. So when you first got there, your aim was ... to try to convert them to Christianity.

    2. DE

      That's right. I went there to translate the Bible and s- plant a church and get everybody believing.

    3. JR

      And now why Pirahã? Why did you go to those people?

    4. DE

      Well, we were in our training, and the missionary organization, the Wycliffe Bible Translators, uh, offered us three p- three areas. They said, "You can go to New Guinea. We need people in New Guinea. You can go to Mexico, or you can go to Brazil. And in Brazil, there's this tribe called the Pirahã that we've had two teams assigned to, and nobody's been able to figure out the language because it's not related to any other known living language." And so they said, "If you're up for that challenge, and we know you did well in linguistics, uh, we'd be happy to have you take that group." So I thought, "Well, sure, I'm up for a challenge," so we took that.

    5. JR

      And so this was 1970-

    6. DE

      Seven

    7. JR

      ... 1977.

    8. DE

      We were assigned there in '76, and I f- made my first trip in in December of 1977.

    9. JR

      And so how much of the language did you know before you got there?

    10. DE

      Nothing.

    11. JR

      Nothing.

    12. DE

      No.

    13. JR

      Is it... What, what are, what do we know in terms of, like, before you got there? Was it recorded? Was it something that people understood? Take your training to the next level with AG1's new product, AG1 Pro. It's back, and it's already sold out once, so get it now. AG1 Pro takes the original next-gen formula, the vitamins, minerals, adaptogens, pre and probiotics and more, and packs in even more support for physical performance. It adds five grams of CreaVitalis creatine monohydrate and HMB to reduce protein breakdown and support recovery. They've also added zinc carnosine for even more gut support. It's one drink, more effective, and it's NSF certified for sport, so you know exactly what's in it. The training's only half of it. Recovery is where the gains actually compound. AG1 Pro is built for both. Go to drinkag1.com/joerogan to get a free AG1 Pro shaker in your Pro welcome kit. That's drinkag1.com/joerogan.

  6. 20:05 – 25:43

    Cracking a tonal language: whistles, meaning flips, and early misunderstandings

    1. DE

      Yeah, th- uh, in 1784, Portuguese explorers, uh, made contact, and they didn't take lists of words. They, they wrote a few descriptive things about the language and about the people, um, and those things still fit them today. Um, and then in 1821, a German explorer went there, and he took a long list of words, which was amazing 'cause he didn't have linguistics or anything like that, and, um, his wor- list of words is pretty good. Uh, and then in 1920, um, another German who naturalized Brazilian, uh, the m- the founder of Brazilian anthropology, uh, went there and took a much larger word list, and that one is very good. And so I had those little word lists. They're not much, and there's no how does the grammar work or anything like that. It's just lists of words. So I had looked at those, but they, it's a tone language, and so they hadn't written the tone, so I had no idea how to pronounce the words. You know, to give you an example of what a tone language is, um, so if I wanna say friend, I say magi ai. And if I wanna say enemy, it's magi ai. Uh, and, uh-

    2. JR

      Well, what's the difference?

    3. DE

      So if I whistle it, friend is [whistles] and if I whistle enemy, it's [whistles] . If you can't hear the tones, you don't know what's going on. So the word for, for me is, um, che, and the word for shit is che. Uh, so, you know, you can be talking about yourself, and everybody starts laughing because you've called yourself-

    4. JR

      Shit

    5. DE

      ... shit. Um-

    6. JR

      'Cause you have the wrong tone.

    7. DE

      'Cause you have the wrong tone. So, you know, there are a lot of tone languages in the world. Mandarin's tonal. Korean, somewhat tonal, and many languages of Africa are tonal. But for those of us who speak European languages, this is just really weird, and it's hard to hear. Uh-

    8. JR

      Like a complete mind shift.

    9. DE

      Yeah. So you've gotta, you've gotta be able to pay attention to those tones. And so, um, but the first thing you have to do is start just collecting words. So I would point at things. My first day, my first hour, I was pointing at things and writing down what they said, and that was the basic linguistics I had had, phonetics, how to write down sounds of the world's languages.

    10. JR

      And when you got there, so on day one, how do you make a connection? Do you just show up, "Hey, brought you the Bible. Everyone have a seat"?

    11. DE

      [laughs]

    12. JR

      How do you do this?

    13. DE

      Well, I, I got off, and I started handing candy to the kids. Um-

    14. JR

      Good move

    15. DE

      ... that works. Um, and the people were very curious because I'm this white guy with red hair. At that time, I had bright red hair, and, uh, they found me curious to look at. And, uh, so they came around. They could tell, you know, at least I th- I think they thought they could tell that I was no danger to them. Um, they know how to deal with that very quickly if they sense danger. But, um, uh, so then I would just start pointing at things. I had, um, I had my pen and paper, and I would, I would get a stick, and I would say in English, you know, "Stick." And they know that I'm trying to communicate something, so they would say back, "Ih." And I thought, "It probably means stick," and I would write that down. And then I would take the stick and drop it, and they would say, "Ih. He mege kaube" And that means, "Stick fell to the ground." And that's what I thought it meant, so that's how I started.

    16. JR

      That's what you thought it meant. Um, what is the reaction to this person coming in and demanding that they teach the language?

    17. DE

      Well, I didn't demand.

    18. JR

      Well, the, you know, you, you, you have a requirement.

    19. DE

      Yes.

    20. JR

      You can't communicate, but yet you're there, so they're kind enough to welcome you.

    21. DE

      Yes.

    22. JR

      Are you in the actual camp with all these people?

    23. DE

      Yeah, I'm in the middle of their village. The plane let me off on, you know, landed on the river. I got out-

    24. JR

      And you don't even ask? You just, like, wander into their camp?

    25. DE

      There's no way to contact them ahead of time.

    26. JR

      This is crazy.

    27. DE

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      And you're just assuming they're not gonna kill you. Is this you?

    29. DE

      Y- this is the Pirahã. This is a Pirahã village, yep.

    30. JR

      And so this is what it looked like when you showed up. You're like, "Hi."

  7. 25:43 – 29:49

    Bringing the family: malaria, meningitis, near-death, and leaving by borrowed canoe

    1. JR

      How long did you stay initially?

    2. DE

      The first time was just to see what it was like before I brought my family, so I stayed 10 days. And then I came back with my family, and we stayed a year at that time. We just stayed there the whole year.

    3. JR

      When you say your family, so your wife and how many kids?

    4. DE

      Three kids. There they are.

    5. JR

      How old were the kids when you got there?

    6. DE

      Well, um, my oldest daughter, who there is about 12, was, uh, nine, and the middle daughter was six, and then the, my son was, uh, one year o- uh, three years old. So this is around that time. Um, and so my kids grow, grew up among the Pirahã, and both my older daughters learned to speak the language fairly quickly.

    7. JR

      Wow. That's a risky move.

    8. DE

      It was.

    9. JR

      You brought your little kids to the jungle.

    10. DE

      Yeah. So my son got-

    11. JR

      What is that decision like? Was that a difficult decision?

    12. DE

      Well, today it would be, but I was a Christian, and I believed in miracles, and I believed God would take care of us. And so I went there and figured He was in charge. He would take care of us. So my son got meningitis.

    13. JR

      Ugh.

    14. DE

      Uh, my, uh, my two daughters got malaria. Um, I got malaria. In fact, after a few years, I went to San Diego, and I, I came down with malaria. And in University Hospital San Diego, they were thrilled because I was the only person they'd ever seen with all three strains of South American malaria at the same time.

    15. JR

      Did you have a relapse of malaria, or was it... 'Cause I have a friend who got malaria in the Congo, and it came back.

    16. DE

      It can come back, and I've had relapses, but it's been a long time now that I haven't had relapses. I've taken so much medicine that supposedly it won't come back anymore, but I can never give blood because it's always in my blood.

    17. JR

      Ugh. What do they give you? Like what medicine are they giving you?

    18. DE

      Well, Daraprim, primaquine, um, straight quinine. Uh, when my wife almost died, uh, sh- she weighed 115 pounds, and then she got malaria and almost died. She got down to 76 pounds.

    19. JR

      Ooh.

    20. DE

      And, uh, and the doctor told me, "She's gonna die tonight. We don't have any way to keep her alive."

    21. JR

      Oh, my God.

    22. DE

      And, uh, they ha- they put her on blood transfusions 'cause you lose a lot of blood. It kills the blood cells. And, uh, they put her on, uh, you know, blood transfusions and also straight quinine, which caused her to be in agony for several days of just constant retching and... It was just, quinine's a really bad experience.

    23. JR

      But at the end of it, she pulled through.

    24. DE

      She pulled through.

    25. JR

      Oh, my God.

    26. DE

      Yeah, yeah. We all pulled through.

    27. JR

      You had to be, like, questioning your decisions. I mean, this has to be a trialing, uh, you know, very difficult time because you're, you chose to be there.

    28. DE

      Yeah. And, and so we were leaving the village to find help because my wife and daughter were dying of malaria at this time, where she got down to 76 pounds, and my daughter lost a lot of weight, too. She was just skin and bones.

    29. JR

      Oh.

    30. DE

      And, uh, I'm, I'm getting my boat out of there, and I had never been out by boat. In fact, I didn't have a boat. We were... I had no idea how to get out of there. So this Catholic priest came up to see what the Protestant missionaries were doing, and I said, "Can I borrow your boat? I gotta get my family out of here." He had this very narrow aluminum canoe with a six horsepower Johnson. And, uh, I got my whole family in there, and he just stayed there in the jungle and let my family take off in his boat. And, uh, I didn't know where we were, but I was thinking, "You know, I've read all these books about missionaries, and, uh, now I'm having a missionary experience." But it wasn't fun. It was really, uh-

  8. 29:49 – 31:18

    Translating Christianity into Pirahã: conceptual gaps and culture clash

    1. DE

      But, um, uh, attacked by snakes and stuff like that. But, um, it was, um, it was just a mind-altering experience. Things didn't go the way I thought. Uh, and, uh, the people started questioning me, you know. They s- you know, they were, started asking me about, "Why do you believe in this Jesus you keep telling us about? What's he like?"

    2. JR

      And you're doing this also, you're translating these concepts from English to Pirahã.

    3. DE

      From Greek to Pirahã. Uh, going from the Greek New Testament, 'cause I was translating the New Testament-

    4. JR

      Okay

    5. DE

      ... so going from Greek, uh, to Pirahã, but I'm referencing English and Portuguese at the same time-

    6. JR

      Oh, my goodness

    7. DE

      ... to make sure I'm staying in there.

    8. JR

      And you expect these people to understand what you're saying.

    9. DE

      Yeah, so, you know, if you're in the middle of the jungle and, and Jesus does something out in a desert, um, how do you describe desert?

    10. JR

      Isn't their language a completely different language than ours? Like, in terms of, like, they, they have no words for color.

    11. DE

      Right.

    12. JR

      They have no words for direction. They don't have a left or a right.

    13. DE

      Right. So ... And this all takes time to find out, because when I went there, I thought everybody had words for colors, everybody had words for numbers, everybody had a concept of God.

    14. JR

      Right. They don't have words for numbers.

    15. DE

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      That's so crazy.

    17. DE

      Yeah, they don't have an-

    18. JR

      Do they have numbers? Do they under-

    19. DE

      No. No numbers.

    20. JR

      So-

    21. DE

      They don't count. They have no numbers

    22. JR

      ... how many fish did you catch today, Mike?

    23. DE

      A lot.

    24. JR

      That's it.

    25. DE

      [laughs] That's it.

    26. JR

      A lot or a little.

    27. DE

      A lot or a little.

    28. JR

      Hmm. Or a good amount.

  9. 31:18 – 53:40

    The Chomsky clash: recursion, universal grammar claims, and academic politics

    1. DE

      Yeah, yeah. So in fact, that claim was really controversial. I've had s- s- psycholinguists and cognitive scientists come down with me to do experiments.

    2. JR

      Didn't you get into it with Chomsky about that?

    3. DE

      Well, I got into it with Chomsky about their grammar.

    4. JR

      Yes.

    5. DE

      Because-

    6. JR

      Oh, that's right

    7. DE

      ... Chomsky made this claim. I've gotten other people ... There are p- people who find every claim controversial. So there's some people can't believe they don't have numbers, some people who don't believe they don't have a concept of God, other people who believe they don't, who don't believe they don't have colors. Um, but um, Chomsky claimed that all languages are built on a common property called recursion. And recursion is this ... English has it all over the place. So it's the ability to put one unit inside another unit of the same type. So take a noun. If I take the noun truck and the noun driver and I put them together, I can form a third word, truck driver. And, and so that's recursion. I put one noun inside another, and I get a third noun. Or with a sentence, I can say, "John spoke." There's no recursion there. I can say, "John said that Bill spoke," and now that's got recursion because Bill spoke is a sentence inside John said that.

    8. JR

      Hmm.

    9. DE

      And so Chomsky, um, claimed, and in my opinion, without doing a lot of homework on this, I mean, he just was basing it on languages that he happened to know, uh, which aren't many, um, that all languages were built on this. It made sense, and he had a principles built into his theory that required this. So when I came along and said they don't have it, and now I- I know there are other languages that don't have it, um, this was like saying you're wrong. And for me, a relative nobody, to tell the most famous linguist in history, a- somebody that Chomsky was called by the New York Times the most int- important intellectual alive, um, to tell him that he's wrong, a lot of people found that very weird, you know, unbelievable.

    10. JR

      Problematic.

    11. DE

      Yeah, problematic.

    12. JR

      Problematic.

    13. DE

      And-

    14. JR

      But facts are facts.

    15. DE

      Yeah. And so-

    16. JR

      I mean, it should be exciting for a linguist to look at something that violates all the laws of other known languages.

    17. DE

      It was exciting for some linguists and really off-pissing for a lot of other linguists.

    18. JR

      Isn't that gross?

    19. DE

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      That's so gross.

    21. DE

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      That is one of the grossest things about intellectuals, th- th- this gatekeeping of information and this appeal to authority that they're the only person who could possibly know.

    23. DE

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      Especially when you're talking about languages. Like, how many languages are there?

    25. DE

      There are about 8,000 separate languages in the world.

    26. JR

      Okay.

    27. DE

      And-

    28. JR

      How the fuck-

    29. DE

      [laughs]

    30. JR

      ... could you know all the rules to 8,000 languages?

  10. 53:40 – 1:07:35

    ‘No conversions’: Pirahã evidence standards and the comic rejection of Jesus

    1. JR

      So how many people, how many of the Pirahã did you convert?

    2. DE

      Nobody. [laughs]

    3. JR

      [laughs]

    4. DE

      In, in decades. They weren't interested. They were, they were so totally... Because my claims did not meet their standard of evidence. They have a high standard of evidence, and I didn't-

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm

    6. DE

      ... meet that standard.

    7. JR

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    8. DE

      You know.

    9. JR

      But don't they have, like, mystical creatures and stuff that they believe live in the forest?

    10. DE

      They do. And when I first got there as a Christian, I called these things spirits-

    11. JR

      Mm

    12. DE

      ... because that's all I knew how to characterize them.

    13. JR

      How do they describe them?

    14. DE

      They describe them as distinct beings. They don't say they're spiritual or anything like that, but they s- you see something. Like, you see, uh, maybe there's another Indian hunting, you know, from a different tribe, hunting in your jungle, because there are some that are close enough to be hunting in the same area. You see them, but you don't see them well. They go behind a tree or something. So you say, "Oh, that's one of these things. I just saw one of these things." Um, they don't put it to the test necessarily, but they do see it.

    15. JR

      When they say, "These things"...

    16. DE

      So they have three major types of entities besides humans. Uh, and they have different types of humans. I'm one type, and they're another type. Um, and so they have things that are-

    17. JR

      How do they make the distinction? Is it appearance?

    18. DE

      For, for humans, yes, it's, it's appearance. Uh, well, actually, for the other entities, it's appearance, too. So for me, I'm white. And white means you don't have blood. So they've asked me-

    19. JR

      [laughs]

    20. DE

      ... they said, "So you, do you have blood?" And they, they asked me one time after I'd been there for years, they said, "Do Americans die?" And I said, "Yeah, we die. But you're really old, and you haven't died yet." You know? And, and so I cut myself once-

    21. JR

      How old were you at the time?

    22. DE

      Probably 45. [laughs]

    23. JR

      And they thought you were a goner.

    24. DE

      Y- yeah, because we age differently. I was already, had gray hair. You know, not all over, but I-

    25. JR

      Right, they look a lot different when they're 45.

    26. DE

      Yeah, yeah.

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. DE

      They're all still 100% black hair and, uh-

    29. JR

      Oh, they thought you were a goner-

    30. DE

      Yeah

  11. 1:07:35 – 1:22:51

    From believer to atheist: doubt, apologetics, Iraq war rhetoric, divorce, and fallout

    1. JR

      So when did that start to slip away?

    2. DE

      It started to slip away, uh, f- from two sides. One, I was spending a lot of my time in the intellectual world and trying to do serious linguistic science. And it slipped away mainly, however, by constant interaction with the Pirahã. Because as I'd gotten to know these people over the years, uh, these are really smart people. They're very intelligent people. They, they had me figured out before I had them figured out, and they can predict my behavior better than I can predict theirs even today. And so, um, they would come to me, and they would say this. You know, they'd say, "Dan, you keep telling us about Jesus. Uh, but it seems that only Americans believe in Jesus, 'cause we don't know any Brazilians that we've ever met that believe in Jesus. And so this seems like an American thing, but we're not Americans." And then they would say, you know, "Where did you get your evidence?" And I began to think, you know, "These are good questions. I can't just throw these questions off. What is my evidence?" You know, I g- I went to Bible school. I've been surrounded by Christians. I've been s- I've surrounded myself by people who believe. And this is what happens in linguistic theory or other scientific theories. You surround yourself with a community that believes the same thing, and pretty soon it's hard for you to consider alternatives.

    3. JR

      Mm.

    4. DE

      And, and so I started considering the alternative, and I realized, you know, I was, I was an atheist back when I w- you know, met my, uh, first wife in front of a Jimi Hendrix concert. I was an atheist, and then I became a Christian. And then I thought, "You know, maybe I was right to begin with." Um, and so eventually I told them. I said, "You know, I don't believe this stuff anymore either." And they started laughing. All the guys started laughing.

    5. JR

      Wow.

    6. DE

      I said, "Why are you..." Uh, they said, "Well, now you're like us," you know?

    7. JR

      [laughs]

    8. DE

      But, um, but then they, they told me one time, they said, "You know, from what we understand, Christians don't drink, and they don't sleep with other women. And, you know, we like to do those things." [laughs]

    9. JR

      [laughs]

    10. DE

      "So we're not interested."

    11. JR

      What was convincing for you, though? If you're a true believer, you think your path is the right way. When you're hanging out with these people, what is, what is making you question it?

    12. DE

      Well, several things. Uh, one of the most important things was that having spent so many years as a Christian and knowing Christians both in the US and missionaries, who are the cream of the crop supposedly, um, I didn't know anyone in the Christian faith that was as well adjusted, who could cope with life as well, who was as satisfied and content with their lives as the Pirahã. They were like the ultimate Zen masters and the ultimate ... You know, if you, if you thought, "What is Jesus supposed to do for your life?" They already had it. Uh, and I didn't know many Christians who did. So first it was quality of the spiritual life. They seemed to me to have the highest quality of spiritual life. So, uh, one MIT guy who came down, an MIT PhD student, said, "These look like the happiest people in the world." And I said, "Well, what kind of statement is that? How would you measure who's happiest?" He said, "Well, I would spend time. I would see how long they smile and laugh every day and compare it to others and how much time they spend laughing and smiling. And I'll guarantee you, I've," he said, "I've never seen a Pirahã here who's not smiling or laughing at frequently."

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. DE

      So it was that quality of character, and it was also just the fact that I began to realize that the scientific principles that I've been learning and that I'm applying in linguistics almost have to be suspended to apply them to the faith. Um, because, you know, for example, I've heard a lot of stories of people being healed. Um, and, and, um ... But this is anecdotal evidence. And I'm not gonna deny anybody's experience. If you tell me you had inoperable cancer or, or ... but now you're, you don't, something happened, and I can't tell you what it was. But at the same time, there's no statistical relevance to that. Um, it's also the case that even when I was in Bible school, um, one of my teachers said, "I wonder why healers, faith healers, never start with amputees." You know? They always start with diseases you can't see, like cancer, um, and explain how it went away. But I s- They, they said also in the Bible, and the Bible itself, you know, says this, Jesus not only healed people, he raised them from the dead. So if somebody claims to be a healer in the same vein as Jesus, I'd like to see them start at cemeteries, uh, and start raising people from the dead. We're not seeing that, and we don't see amputees healed. Um, we see things that are s- sort of subjective experiences. So that ... And I'm not claiming that nobody has a right to believe what they believe or that I'm right about all these things, but these are the reason, this is part of the reasoning process-

    15. JR

      Mm-hmm

    16. DE

      ... that went through my mind. And I thought, "Yeah, I just can't, I just can't, uh, do this anymore. I cannot tell these people to believe something- That they have reasonable objections against, and I don't have reasonable answers for.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. DE

      So to me, they made more sense than I did.

    19. JR

      Well, there's so many of these ancient religions that have very similar stories to the Jesus story.

    20. DE

      Yes, that's true.

    21. JR

      It seems like a very old story. And I'm of the opinion that what you're getting with all of these religious texts is there were some events, and there's some sort of a documentation of these events, but it's very hard to figure out what exactly happened.

    22. DE

      Right.

    23. JR

      Like for instance, Paul never met Jesus.

    24. DE

      No.

    25. JR

      When most people find that out, they go, "Wait, what?" So all that stuff that Jesus said, Paul's writing down, and well, how does Paul know this? And then you go, "Oh, well, Paul met Jesus in a dream." Like he- hold the fuck on. [laughs]

    26. DE

      Right, right. [laughs] Well, see, ironically, the Pentahouse might actually take that as evidence.

    27. JR

      Right.

    28. DE

      Yeah, but-

    29. JR

      I mean, Jesus came back to their camp as a fast walker.

    30. DE

      But we said-

  12. 1:22:51 – 1:38:07

    Pirahã worldview: entities/‘spirits,’ fastmouth performances, and identity via name changes

    1. DE

      Yeah. And then, yeah, like now they're doing, they're doing it all the time. But when the fish are jumping-

    2. JR

      Yeah

    3. DE

      ... um, it's, it's that. And then so what do you do with the rest of your time? You lay around the fire and tell jokes and talk to people-

    4. JR

      Right

    5. DE

      ... and play with your kids. You know, the men love to play with their... Everybody-

    6. JR

      But they're in pure subsistence too, because they're not even preserving food.

    7. DE

      Right. If they don't find food today, they go hungry today.

    8. JR

      Have you ever seen the Werner Herzog documentary, Happy People?

    9. DE

      I haven't seen that. I did meet him once, but, uh, I haven't, um, I haven't seen that documentary. He's really big into these kinds of societies, I know that. And-

    10. JR

      That's what Happy People's about.

    11. DE

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      It's about these people that live in Siberia.

    13. DE

      Right. Right.

    14. JR

      They're hunters and trappers that live in Siberia, and they're all happy.

    15. DE

      Right.

    16. JR

      Yeah. And they, they basically just spend most of their time gathering food. Gathering food and then spending time with the communities.

    17. DE

      Yeah. Well, the documentary that was made about the Pirahã by the Smithsonian and a couple of other institutions, uh, it's called The Grammar of Happiness.

    18. JR

      Mm.

    19. DE

      Um, because the film crew that went with me, um, it was very small, like three people, but, um, they were deeply impressed by what they saw and the level of happiness. And all the psychologists that I've taken, and linguists, have also been very impressed by the level. If they get past the heat, and they get past the confrontation with your body, and, you know, the Pirahã don't have outhouses. They don't have... You know, I mean, if somebody needs to take a dump, they walk off 10 feet into the bush and do it. Um, and so w- we have to have-

    20. JR

      Do they have toilet paper?

    21. DE

      No.

    22. JR

      What do they do?

    23. DE

      A stick or leaves.

    24. JR

      Oh, sticks.

    25. DE

      Yeah, yeah.

    26. JR

      Hey.

    27. DE

      Or if you have corn cobs, that's great, but they don't have corn cobs.

    28. JR

      Corn cobs.

    29. DE

      [laughs]

    30. JR

      Good Lord.

  13. 1:38:07 – 2:04:06

    Morality without religion: anger as ‘sin,’ conflict avoidance, and banishment as punishment

    1. JR

      Right. It's, uh, it's gotta be weird to have your beliefs confronted by a group of people, where as you're learning their language you're realizing that this moral framework and the scaffolding that you've only attributed to Christianity, and you think that it's just Christianity and religion that makes people good people. And then there, here's people that don't have any god.

    2. DE

      Right. Yeah, so, like, you know, you're in a big storm. The Amazon has storms in the rainy season. So somebody's house blows over, 'cause their houses, they're hunter-gatherers and they're semi-nomadic, so they don't build the best houses. So it's pouring rain and somebody's house blows over, and they're just stuck there in the rain. What is their reaction? They start laughing like it's the funniest thing that ever happened. And they will go off into other people's huts and sleep on the ground or get near the fire, or they might come to my house, that's very common, and wanna sleep with me, and then the next day they'll rebuild it. There's nothing except for fear of immediate threat from the outside or from animals that gets them to lose their cool. And when they do lose their cool, it's not really losing their cool. It is calculated defense. They know how to take care of themselves. You know, somebody's ... When I mentioned to this guy that they would kill him, and I said, I said, "They kill for a living. Don't forget that. That's how they make their living." D- every man there, every boy here could shoot you through the eye at 50 yards with one of those arrows. They're not gonna miss. If they decide to kill you or me, we're dead. Um, so they don't because they make a difference between killing out of necessity and killing to murder. But if they think they have to defend their family, you're dead.

    3. JR

      But their culture doesn't encourage squabbles. Like, they just, they're easygoing. They take-

    4. DE

      No

    5. JR

      ... everything.

    6. DE

      The biggest, if there's a concept of sin among the Pirahã, it is anger. You don't raise-

    7. JR

      Mm

    8. DE

      ... your voice in anger. You don't hit another Pirahã in anger. You know, I, I saw a guy get drunk. When they get alcohol they get drunk. And he took a shotgun that he had gotten from a Brazilian and he shot a dog that belonged to his brother.

    9. JR

      Oh.

    10. DE

      And his brother runs up to the dog and he's just sobbing because they love their dogs. And he's just crying that his dog's dead. And I went up to him and I thought, "Oh, God. There's gonna be some violence here. I gotta get ready for this." And I said, "What are you gonna do?" He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "Are you gonna do anything to your brother? He shot your dog." He said, "I don't do anything to my brother. He's my brother. He shouldn't have shot my dog, but he's drunk and his head's not working. You know, I miss my dog. I love my dog, but I love my brother. I'm not gonna hurt my brother." So they just don't react that way.

    11. JR

      So do they have punishment for crimes?

    12. DE

      They have punishment if it threatens the survival of the village. So there was one young man, a teenager, and I talk about him in, um, in both my book Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes and in the new one that's coming out next year, Born of the River, um, who was paid in alcohol and a new shotgun to kill somebody who was, um, living up the river who wasn't a Pirahã, living on the same river. And he killed him. And the Pirahã saw this as an existential threat to the whole community because they knew that the police could come up, they knew that soldiers could come up, they knew that many Pirahã could be killed if, if this wasn't handled. So they didn't hurt him, but they kicked him out of the village. He had to live on his own, and he died. About two months later he was dead. It's hard to live on your own in the middle of the jungle with no community and nobody who has anything to do with you. Just shunned.

    13. JR

      Wow.

    14. DE

      So, um, that's the worst punishment they have.

    15. JR

      Banishment.

    16. DE

      Banishment.

    17. JR

      Banishment in the jungle is crazy.

    18. DE

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      What did they give him to survive? Was it like you when you were learn- [laughs]

    20. DE

      He got nothing.

    21. JR

      Nothing.

    22. DE

      Yeah. Get out. He could take what he had, but nobody gave him anything else. So he had a bow and arrow, no food, no clothes.

    23. JR

      How did he die?

    24. DE

      Um, well, that I don't know because I just know that when I came w- I, I would ask about him, and then they said, "Oh, he's dead." So there's two possibilities. He died, naturally death, which I think is probably what happened, or somebody killed him.

    25. JR

      And then changed their name. "I didn't do it."

    26. DE

      Yeah, yeah.

    27. JR

      [laughs]

    28. DE

      That easily, that could have easily happened, um, because-

    29. JR

      The change of the name gag is awesome.

    30. DE

      Yeah. Everybody up there is violent. You see Brazilians coming up in these boats. Many of them are like pirates. I mean, they don't practice piracy now. Some of them do. But you, you go on a boat with these guys, and these are some tough-looking guys. They got scars on their faces and scars on their b- these are knife fights. These are guys who, who ... You know, like, I, I got really mad at somebody once, and I mentioned to another Brazilian, I said, "You know, if he keeps doing that, I'm gonna punch him in the face." And he says, "If you punch him in the face, he's gonna kill you. You know, he'll either get a knife or he'll get a gun." So if you decide you're gonna hit somebody, you better be armed because they're gonna come at you with whatever weapon they can get their hands on.

  14. 2:04:06 – 2:30:05

    Health, resilience, and ‘the grammar of happiness’: pain tolerance, diet, and modern harms

    1. DE

      ... The f- their favorite part of any animal is the brains.

    2. JR

      Boy.

    3. DE

      And one reason the brains are so good is because brains are, have a lot of saturated fat. And it's a great source of saturated fat. And if you're a non-white-

    4. JR

      They eat monkey brains?

    5. DE

      Yeah, they eat monkey brains. So the favorite thing ... I, I was talking to a woman one time, and I was m- I was making a sandwich. I had brought in some lunch meat and bread. I had just gotten there. It was my first day there, and so I had a little bit, enough to make a sandwich for that night. And I'm squirting mustard. And you know when you get to the end of the mustard bottle and you're squeezing it, it makes a sound like somebody who's got diarrhea. And, um, she says, "What is that bird shit stuff you're eating?"

    6. JR

      [laughs]

    7. DE

      And I said, "Well, it's good. It's mustard. Do you wanna try some?" "Oh, no." And, um, she said, "Look at this bird shit. He's eating bird shit."

    8. JR

      [laughs]

    9. DE

      And, um, then I look at her and she's eating the brains out of a rat.

    10. JR

      [laughs]

    11. DE

      Uh, and he's got this rat head, and she's sucking the brains out. And, um, they're cooked of course, but, uh, she's sucking the br- And I'm thinking, "This is a great example for an introductory class in anthropology." [laughs]

    12. JR

      Right.

    13. DE

      You know? How different we perceive things. That's great to her, this is great to me, but it grosses the other one out.

    14. JR

      That's wild. Mustard's disgusting, rat brain's great.

    15. DE

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      And isn't there an issue with, uh, eating primate brain tissue? Isn't, couldn't you get prion diseases?

    17. DE

      Well, there are diseases, uh, that they discovered in New Guinea from cannibals who were eating human brains.

    18. JR

      Right.

    19. DE

      Um, [clears throat] but I'm not aware of any diseases that are passed by eating monkey brains or, or other kinds of brains. They'll eat any animal's brains. Um ...

    20. JR

      So the prion diseases that you get are from animals eating the same animal, right? Like mad cow disease is because they served cows literal brain and neural tissue from other cows.

    21. DE

      Right. So I'm not, not an expert on that, but, um, I do know that I've never seen a case of them getting disease from that. And the c- the superficial reading that I've done on it suggests that humans get it from eating human brains.

    22. JR

      Interesting.

    23. DE

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      So they can eat deer brains-

    25. DE

      Yeah

    26. JR

      ... rat brains, no problem.

    27. DE

      Right. So the favorite part of any animal is the head. So if they bring me a fish, they'll give me a fish ... Um, they like to trade fish for canned meat because canned meat keeps. But, uh, um, I like fish cheeks, but my, my wife hated the fish heads. She didn't want the fish heads around. So they would be happy to keep the fish heads, and they just make a big stew of fish heads, and they eat the brains and the eyeballs and everything. Those are really tasty bits. Um-

    28. JR

      And probably rich in nutrients.

    29. DE

      Yeah, they are rich in nutrients. They know what they're doing. They love all the internal organs.

    30. JR

      Yeah, it's so weird how w- we've moved away from all that stuff.

Episode duration: 2:37:48

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