Joe Rogan Experience #2554 - Carlo Rovelli

1. 0:00 – 0:02

   Intro

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:02 – 2:53

   Carlo Rovelli’s work and the book’s core claim: reality is relational

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music] Very nice to meet you.

   4. CRCarlo Rovelli0:13

      Joe Rogan, I'm very happy. Thank you very much for inviting this invitation.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      I'm happy to talk to you. I've, uh, enjoyed your work, so it's, it's very-

   6. CRCarlo Rovelli0:20

      Oh

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      ... exciting for me.

   8. CRCarlo Rovelli0:20

      Oh, fantastic.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      I've heard many conversations with you. I, uh, how did... First of all, please tell everybody what you do.

   10. CRCarlo Rovelli0:26

       What do I do?

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       Yes.

   12. CRCarlo Rovelli0:28

       Heh. So I mean-

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       I should probably start more podcasts out this way. [laughs]

   14. CRCarlo Rovelli0:31

       Ah, s- [laughs] I do science, I do philosophy, I do some politics. I enjoy life. I fall in love. I do all the things people do in life.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       All kinds of things.

   16. CRCarlo Rovelli0:40

       All kind of things, yes. Offi-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       O-

   18. CRCarlo Rovelli0:41

       Officially, my job description is a physicist. I do quantum gravity, theoretical physics.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       And, um, w- w- the pitch that they sent me, uh, I guess-

   20. CRCarlo Rovelli0:53

       Who is they?

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       The, I don't know who the publicists are.

   22. CRCarlo Rovelli0:56

       Okay. [laughs]

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       Uh, On The Equality of All Things.

   24. CRCarlo Rovelli0:59

       Oh, the book.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       Yes.

   26. CRCarlo Rovelli0:59

       That's the last book I, I published, yes.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02

       Yes.

   28. CRCarlo Rovelli1:02

       Oh, well, I'm going to publish. It's coming out in a few days.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       Yeah, it comes out September 15. And what are, what are we at today? Today is the 8th.

   30. CRCarlo Rovelli1:08

       Yeah.
3. 2:53 – 4:44

   What “objective reality” misses: perspectives, interactions, and being inside reality

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:53

      So when you say objective reality, meaning the reality that we're seeing and experiencing, that this is just a tiny fraction of what's real? Or that we're getting a distorted perception of what's real?

   2. CRCarlo Rovelli3:03

      Um, we are getting a perception, a perspective on what is real. I mean, I see you. You're real, of course. I see this pen. This pen is real, of course. I'm not denying that there is some reality. But the way you see the pen is different from mine, of course, just because you see it from the other side. So you have a perspective. I have a perspective. And, uh, the question is do all, do all this perspective match perfectly into a unique objective reality of the pen?

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:27

      [laughs]

   4. CRCarlo Rovelli3:27

      And I think quantum mechanic's telling us no. Uh, reality is this ensemble of perspectives. So the properties of the pen, where it is, its color, how long it is, uh, all, all, all the property of the pen are not really properties of the pen. It's how the pen looks to you, how the pen looks to me. Not just you and me as human beings, how the pen clashes another pen, how it affects another pen.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:49

      Mm.

   6. CRCarlo Rovelli3:49

      Um, so we, we should understand, I think, uh, reality as this network of interaction, how things look to everything else. Which is a more beautiful picture of reality than just, you know, we being outside and looking from the outside. We're inside reality. We are part of reality. So what we see is just a part of how things interact with one another. It's how they interact with us.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:13

      So when, when you... You're talking about objective reality. So o- one of the problems that human beings have is our senses, and we assume that our senses see everything that's there to be seen, but that doesn't really make sense.

   8. CRCarlo Rovelli4:27

      [laughs]

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:27

      It seems, it seems like we see and hear and touch and feel, uh, everything we need to see to stay alive.

   10. CRCarlo Rovelli4:36

       Yeah. Uh, to some extent our senses are reliable of course, right?

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:39

       Sure.

   12. CRCarlo Rovelli4:40

       I see a cup there. [laughs] If I want drink-

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:41

       You pick it up

   14. CRCarlo Rovelli4:42

       ... I use the cup, it works.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:42

       Yeah. If it's hot, you put it down.

4. 4:44 – 8:14

   Senses, science, and the beauty question (sunsets as a case study)

   1. CRCarlo Rovelli4:44

      Right. The problem is that if we, if we take our senses too literally, too seriously, uh, we're wrong. And we know we're wrong. I mean, there's so many c- cases, uh, we find out we're wrong. Um, and, uh, the reason I love science is when, uh, it corrects us in some big way. Think about that. Um, think about the sunset. Sunset is marvelous, you know? You sit by the ocean. You see the sun going down, going down, going down. It's beautiful. The sky becomes dark. So the sun goes down. But science has taught to us is that's not really what happens. The su- the sun doesn't move. It stays there. It's actually us, the, the, the, the, the, the Earth. It's a big rock that is spinning, and we are moving out of s- light of the sun. And if you see the sun going down and remember that, uh, you can think about that, and say, "Oh, my senses cheat me in telling me that the sun is moving. But it's not moving. I am moving."

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:42

      Yeah.

   3. CRCarlo Rovelli5:43

      So that's a goo- good example in which, uh, science has told us, uh, that, uh, things are not exactly like we see. They're in a different manner.

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:52

      I've always wondered what's the evolutionary benefit of the beauty of sunsets. Why are they so beautiful? Like, what is it about it that's so inspiring and so magnificent And some, it does something to people. It does something to people. It makes you feel different. When the sun rises in the morning, you feel different. It ma- it has an effect on you. And I've always wondered, like, what, what is the purpose of that? Like, why does that exist? It, like, food tastes great because it's nutritious.

   5. CRCarlo Rovelli6:20

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:20

      You eat an orange, it's delicious because it's really good for you.

   7. CRCarlo Rovelli6:24

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:24

      There s- it seems to be something to beauty, especially natural beauty, like mountains. Like, when I look at them, I'm like, "Why is it so good to look at these? Why does it feel so good?" Like, there's something to it. There's some weirdness that you can't just, you can't just chalk off to measurement. There's, there's something going on.

   9. CRCarlo Rovelli6:47

      Uh, uh, that's great question. I, I, I love this question. Um, yes. Uh, I mean, of course sunset and sunrise is crucial for us because, uh, we're desi- we have been designed by evolution through, through, through millennia, hundred of millennia, thousand of millennia, uh, to, you know, sleep in the night and, and, and go around in, in, in, in, in the day, which is just what our species do. Other, other spe- cats do the opposite. Um, so they are certainly important for us. Um, but our relation with the world, uh, and I think you're putting your finger on it, is not, uh, is not about knowledge, about what to do. It's always emotional, right? I mean, food is, raises emotion. [laughs] Um, we like it. Um, so I don't know exactly where the emotion of sunset and sunrise come from, but certainly the fact we have it, um, points to the fact that if we have to understand ourself and our relation with the world, we have to look at our emotions a lot, not just what we know, what we don't know. Uh, we have an emotional relation among ourself and, uh, with things in the world, with mountains, with, uh, animals, with wild animals, with little things and, uh, and, and one another. And then the rational part comes on top of it to say, "Oh, let's correct it. Let's do it a little bit better." It uses... I'm not denying the utility of the rational part, but it's an addendum to what we are.

5. 8:14 – 20:38

   Quantum mechanics as a crisis for objectivity: history, debates, and interpretations

   1. JRJoe Rogan8:14

      An addendum to what we are. The, the really weird thing for people that are studying the world must have been the understanding of quantum physics.

   2. CRCarlo Rovelli8:25

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:26

      That must have thrown the whole thing into a giant tizzy because now you're like, "Okay, well, at the lowest level, observable level, the smallest observable level of reality, you have magic."

   4. CRCarlo Rovelli8:38

      That's exactly the point. Somehow physics was, uh, supposed to be the, the path to objectivity, right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:45

      Right.

   6. CRCarlo Rovelli8:45

      Physics is what, uh, guarantees that, uh, all right, we're emotions, perspective, my view, your view, but down there, there's physics. The world is just simple down there.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:55

      Right.

   8. CRCarlo Rovelli8:56

      There's stuff, there are atoms moving around, there are forces, and that's it. And then, uh, last century, during the 20th century, uh, the physicist discovered that, that no, no, no, that's not the case. The world down there is even more perspectival, more complicated, um, than in our everyday life. It really was really hard. I mean, the, the physicists were very confused at the beginning of the century because they were making all this measurement on atoms, on radiation, you know, electrons and stuff, and trying to make sense of it, and they couldn't, they couldn't, they couldn't. And then at some point, um, I think it was Niels Bohr, a Danish, first one, who said, "Well, w- we have to change the metaphysics here. It's not just an issue about writing the right equation, the, the right force. Uh, we have to change the way we think about the world." Once again, okay? Like when we thought, uh, the Earth move or, um, uh, when we, when we realized the fields, electric fields, we change the way profoundly we think about reality. And quantum mechanics is one of these jumps. Now, Joe, we're still debating about us, right? Physicists are debating about themself, and philosophers are debating, what the hell have we understood with quantum mechanics? Quantum mechanics telling us the world is not what we thought it is. And, uh, there's a conversation that's going on, a debate, sometimes furious. And somebody says, "Oh, you know, there is this, um, uh, immense wave function of the universe, of p- other, other universe," and stuff like that. Um, trying to hang on on the exist of something absolutely objective down there, trying to multiply reality to make it, to make it objective. But I think it's this dream of an absolute objectivity which is a mistake.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:46

      The dream of an absolute objectivity is a mistake. That's really fascinating. When they first started understanding that observing quantum interactions changes them-

   10. CRCarlo Rovelli11:02

       Yeah

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:02

       ... what, what was... W- uh, how long did it take for them to even accept that? Like, how many times did they have to run those experiments with particles and waves, with observers versus n- um, before they said, "Okay, something's going on here-"

   12. CRCarlo Rovelli11:17

       Yeah

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:17

       "... where it seems that, that we, when we watch things, it has an effect on them."

   14. CRCarlo Rovelli11:21

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:22

       "And a measurable effect. This is a real thing that's happening. This isn't-"

   16. CRCarlo Rovelli11:24

       Oh, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:25

       "This isn't woo woo."

   18. CRCarlo Rovelli11:27

       No, it's not, it's not voodoo. It's not [both laughing] Exactly. It's, it's, it's, it's not just-

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:32

       What was that like for them?

   20. CRCarlo Rovelli11:32

       ... smoking joint and getting high. It's just, uh, these are the physicists, the one who was supposed to be the most rational, objective guys of all.

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:39

       Right.

   22. CRCarlo Rovelli11:39

       Uh, well, what happened is that, um, measurement piled up all through the first 20 years of the, of the 20th century. Um, the measurement were, were a simple measurement, right? Atoms have... uh, emit light, and, uh, the light has special colors. This color is a spectrum of the light. And they were trying to make sense of that. I mean, how does electron move to produce that, that light? It didn't work, didn't work, didn't work. Um- Then in Copenhagen, there was a school in which they were debating almost that. And Niels Bohr is the first one who started saying, "Look, um, we-- to understand the atom, we should not just look at the atom. We should understand know how we look at it. If we look at it in one way, we see one thing. If we look at another way, we see another thing." That was very confused. Um, but then what happened is that a mathematics for describing the atoms came out. This is the theory, the mathematical theory of quantum mechanics. It works very well. It's used today everywhere. I mean, we talk with this microphone, there's quantum stuff inside. There are circuits are designed with quan- pro- quantum properties of, uh, of matter. So quantum mechanics is solid. We know how, how to use it. It tell us, "If you do this, you see this. If you do that, you see that." But it doesn't tell us in between. You do this, and then if you do one thing, you see one thing. If you do another thing, you see another thing. And it do- it doesn't give a, a story of what happened to the electron, to the, to, to the quantum system itself. So people got confused. The physicists got confused, and, uh, uh, they started discussing how to think about that. So quantum mechanics is strange theory. We know how to use it. It's like a black box. Uh, but we don't know what inside the box. Uh, it gives the right answer, but we can't make a picture in our mind of what happened in the atoms, in the things, in the, in, in the electronic circuits. Even in a quantum computer, we don't know really what happened inside.

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:37

       That's so strange.

   24. CRCarlo Rovelli13:38

       Yes. But it works fantastically.

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:40

       [laughs]

   26. CRCarlo Rovelli13:40

       And, uh, and so physicists disagree, and some say, "You know, there are extra variables that we are in principle impossible to see who are..." That's some- somebody who says that. Uh, who, who determines what happened, and they are a priori invisible. Other says, "You know, there are parallel world- worlds in which..." Worlds. Worlds. I'm Italian.

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:02

       Worlds. Yeah.

   28. CRCarlo Rovelli14:03

       [laughs] Get confused sometimes.

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:03

       I know you're Italian, sorry.

   30. CRCarlo Rovelli14:04

       Yeah. Um, uh, then there are others, me including, me included, who think, "No, no, no. It's, uh, it's really phil- philosophical here. We have to get rid of the idea that there is something there just by itself. What, what, what is there is, uh, what affects me or what affects you or what affect another piece of matter or another." So we have to think of reality as processes of things affecting one another, in relations, relations. And, and you know, uh, in a sense, the... down there, the simple physics is more like our everyday life than what we imagined in thinking that it was so objective and, and, and abstract. Everyday life, uh, you know, who are you, Joe Rogan? You, you're what I see, what he sees, what people listening to you, and you're a multiplicity of things. Which one is the real one? Well, it... you are this collection of perspectives on you, including your, your own perspective on yourself. There's no final one. What is a final description of you? Or what is a final description of a cup of water? Is that the one given by chemistry? By physics? Which physics? Quantum physics? Quantum gravity? By, uh, by, by, by, uh, psychology? Cup of water is because we drink. That's why we call a cup of water. So it's a, it's, it's a human picture of what is going on. Which one is the final one? I don't think there is a final one. There is a, a collection of perspective on the same cup of water, and that's a cup of water.
6. 20:38 – 28:46

   The double-slit puzzle and the relational view: why “where is it?” can be the wrong question

   1. JRJoe Rogan20:38

      Can you explain what it does? Like, what that experiment does and why it was so confusing to them?

   2. CRCarlo Rovelli20:43

      Um-

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:44

      When they were sending th- the double slit.

   4. CRCarlo Rovelli20:47

      Yeah. That's a... There were a number of extremely confusing experiment. Here is one, if I can try to, uh, uh, make it in, in a few words. Uh, you have a wall with two holes, two slits, okay? And you send one particle from one side to the other side. Okay, that's easy. Uh, you can try to do many times. It go through one of the two slits, and, and it gets through the other time. Now, if you look which slits it goes through, it only goes through one slit or the other, okay? So never both, never... So if, if it goes through one and you check, it goes through one and the other. So far so good. But then is a magic. Um, if you send it, um, the particle, um, can go to one point on the screen of the other side if you have one screen open. It can go to the same point if you have one scr- sorry, one hole open. It can get to the same point if you have the other hole open, but it does never get there if you have both open. A- and that's... If you start thinking, the more you think, the more it makes no sense at all. Because if it come there, if it can get there through one hole, why cannot it go there if two holes are open, okay? So the only possibility is that in some sense it go through both, and somehow part go through one, part go through the other, and they f- the two parts forbid each other to, to go through that particular way. But then you look at the two holes, and it never goes through both, only one. Now, do you find this confusing? Uh, yes.

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:27

      Yeah.

   6. CRCarlo Rovelli22:27

      And for a century, [laughs] people have been confused about that. So what's the way out? Way out is that the question, where is the particle if you're not checking, if it's not interacting with something else, it's a wrong question. There's just no particle. The particle is only, uh, the effect it has on the screen, on the detectors. You cannot make sense of the particle as something which always have a position. It only have a position when it interact with something else. That's a mystery of quantum mechanics, the magic of quantum mechanics, and a challenge to our idea of an objective always existing particle independent of its interaction.

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:14

      What do you think is happening that... Do you have any theories of what is happening that's causing it to behave differently when observed or when measured?

   8. CRCarlo Rovelli23:24

      Um, uh-

   9. JRJoe Rogan23:30

      So the measurement itself is something. Something is going on. It interacts with the measurement, and it changes the way it makes a pattern.

   10. CRCarlo Rovelli23:40

       Yes. But it's not the measurement in the sense of, uh, you know, some physicists making a measurement. It's just interaction with anything, is, uh... If, if there's something to interact with or if there isn't, the physics is completely different. And if there isn't, the question where the particle is is a badly posed que- question. So the particle is something... We shouldn't think of the particle as, as an entity which always has a position. We should think as an entity like it snaps here, and then it snaps there, and then it snap there. And when it snaps is when it hits something And the, the snaps are connected by, we, we can predict probabilistic where, where they, where they're gonna happen. But if we ask what happened in between, it makes no sense. The particle is just its interactions.

   11. JRJoe Rogan24:35

       Do you think we'll ever understand what's happening?

   12. CRCarlo Rovelli24:37

       Yes, I do. Uh, I do because, uh, because, uh, historically, every time, uh, we have found something strange, it seemed totally incomprehensible at first, and then we get used to it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan24:55

       Right.

   14. CRCarlo Rovelli24:55

       And we start to learn. Let, let me give you an example. Uh, this is much older. Even, even ... You know, I don't think science is modern stuff. It's, learning about the world is an ancient thing. So about 2,000 years ago, uh, humankind realized that the Earth is, is, is a ball, it's a sphere. It's not a flat thing.

   15. JRJoe Rogan25:15

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CRCarlo Rovelli25:15

       Now, not everybody's convinced, but [laughs]

   17. JRJoe Rogan25:17

       A lot of people aren't. [laughs]

   18. CRCarlo Rovelli25:19

       Yeah. But Earth is, is a ball.

   19. JRJoe Rogan25:21

       [laughs]

   20. CRCarlo Rovelli25:21

       And, uh, and, uh, uh, why not everybody's convinced? Because indeed, it's incredibly counterintuitive, right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan25:28

       Right.

   22. CRCarlo Rovelli25:29

       You, you and I are here, and in Sydney, people are upside down.

   23. JRJoe Rogan25:32

       [laughs]

   24. CRCarlo Rovelli25:32

       Why, why, why don't they fall down? I don't know. Do you remember when you learned it the first time you're a kid?

   25. JRJoe Rogan25:36

       I, I've always learned it, so it's ... I mean, it seemed weird.

   26. CRCarlo Rovelli25:40

       It seems weird.

   27. JRJoe Rogan25:41

       But, I mean, I can't remember a time where I didn't know it.

   28. CRCarlo Rovelli25:45

       Okay.

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:46

       I mean, I guess we taught it, they taught it in science when I was, uh, in grade school.

   30. CRCarlo Rovelli25:50

       Exactly. Exactly. So you're a kid, you're told that.
7. 28:46 – 35:02

   Relativity and time dilation: your head is older than your feet

   1. CRCarlo Rovelli28:46

      Time. Time has always been a, a passion for me. Um, the following is a fact. Um, if I take two, two clocks, two, two watches. This is, uh, the one I have on my wrist. And let's take this one on your table. And if they indicate the same time, okay? Look, I check them. They indicate the same time. I move one of the two up. I wait a little bit. One, two, three, four. And then I come down and I, I, I look again. If the two clocks are good enough, they don't indicate the same time anymore.

   2. JRJoe Rogan29:20

      [laughs]

   3. CRCarlo Rovelli29:21

      Okay?

   4. JRJoe Rogan29:21

      Yeah.

   5. CRCarlo Rovelli29:22

      It's a fact. You can check in the laboratory.

   6. JRJoe Rogan29:23

      Yeah.

   7. CRCarlo Rovelli29:24

      The, the physics laboratory, they do that.

   8. JRJoe Rogan29:25

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CRCarlo Rovelli29:26

      You can check that, uh ... You need very good clocks. Um, but with very good clocks, you can check at 30, 40 inches of difference.

   10. JRJoe Rogan29:33

       I mean, it's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of a second.

   11. CRCarlo Rovelli29:35

       It's a teeny, teeny, tiny, tiny fraction of a second.

   12. JRJoe Rogan29:37

       But it's measurable.

   13. CRCarlo Rovelli29:38

       But it's measurable, so it's completely real. So up here, there is more time passing than down there.

   14. JRJoe Rogan29:45

       That's so crazy.

   15. CRCarlo Rovelli29:47

       Your head-

   16. JRJoe Rogan29:49

       [laughs]

   17. CRCarlo Rovelli29:49

       ... it's older than your feet. Your feet are younger than your head.

   18. JRJoe Rogan29:54

       By, like, how many seconds do you think?

   19. CRCarlo Rovelli29:55

       Un- unless you live upside down.

   20. JRJoe Rogan29:56

       How many seconds do you think my feet are younger?

   21. CRCarlo Rovelli29:59

       Oh, v- very little. Uh-

   22. JRJoe Rogan30:01

       A second?

   23. CRCarlo Rovelli30:01

       Uh, no, no. Full, full life, uh, it's sort of a 1,000 of a second, I would say.

   24. JRJoe Rogan30:07

       [laughs]

   25. CRCarlo Rovelli30:07

       I give, I give my, my students ... When I teach relativity, I give my students this calculation to do. Actually, the calculation I say is that i- i- if you and your friend, one stay, um, in Austin, and the other goes up in Colorado in the high mountain- m- mountains. Um, after 10 years he comes down. How long has the friend up in the mountain has lived more than the one down? And they do the calculation. I give the right answer. It's a fraction of a second. Um, it's small, but it's real. And careful, if you go near a black hole, it's colossal. Okay? You go near a black hole, you wait a little bit. You wait 10 seconds, 10 minutes there. You come back, it's a hand- it's a, it's 100 years passed on Earth. So time is not this universal common time, right? We, in our everyday life, if you and I separate and come back, half an hour for me, half an hour for you, that's our experience. But our experience is limited because we're not sufficiently sensitive or because we're not near a black hole. We are on a, on a, on a quiet pla- place of the universe, um, where there's no big change in gravity. Uh, but that gives us the wrong idea that time is the same for everybody. Time is not the same for everybody in, in the large universe.

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:21

       Do you think in our attempt to measure time, we've done ourselves a disservice by creating, like, calendars and clocks that we've sort of limited our perception of what time actually is, that we look at it in terms of what... What, what we're doing is we're, we have a measuring device, and that measuring device or a counting device, that counting device we're associating with time. But time itself d- is, it's just going on and in different ways all over the place. Like, if you're going the speed of light and you travel-

   27. CRCarlo Rovelli31:54

       Yeah

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:55

       ... around the world and come back, you will be much younger-

   29. CRCarlo Rovelli31:59

       Yes, exactly

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:00

       ... than the people who are on the ground. Like a me- like a lot, like years.
8. 35:02 – 45:19

   Consciousness, “soul,” and equality of all things: humans as nature, not exceptions

   1. JRJoe Rogan35:02

      Um, what do you think consciousness is?

   2. CRCarlo Rovelli35:05

      Oh. Small question. [laughs]

   3. JRJoe Rogan35:08

      Small.

   4. CRCarlo Rovelli35:08

      Jumping to something else. Um-

   5. JRJoe Rogan35:10

      Well, it's, I wanted to connect the two of them 'cause I think-

   6. CRCarlo Rovelli35:13

      Yeah. I... First of all, consciousness is a strange word. It's very fashionable today.

   7. JRJoe Rogan35:18

      Right.

   8. CRCarlo Rovelli35:19

      Um, I think it just means what people meant by soul in the past.

   9. JRJoe Rogan35:26

      Ah.

   10. CRCarlo Rovelli35:26

       [laughs] It's just, uh, it sounds more scientific, but that's what, what it is. Con-

   11. JRJoe Rogan35:32

       Yeah.

   12. CRCarlo Rovelli35:32

       And let me put it this way. Everybody who talk about consciousness talks about something a little bit different. Somebody by consciousness mean, um, the fact that you see things, you perceive things. You, you, you're a subject of experience. For somebody, consciousness is your, you know, this internal blah, blah, blah that we [laughs] we have in our mind. We keep talking to ourself. For somebody, is, is, is what remains when that blah, blah, blah shut up, and just a sense of yourself. Not the outside, the self. So people are very confused about that when they, um, think about consciousness. I, um, I don't think there is a great mystery here. Um, first of all, uh, remember what I said before, that I don't think we should think about an objective reality. I think we should think of the reality, um, as a, a way things look to one another, a way they affect one another. So that means that you have a lot of possible perspectives on reality. There is a reality with respect to me, with respect to you, with respect to this book, with respect to this pen, with respect to this cup. It's how, how things manifest themself to the cup. So of course there is a reality as things manifest themself to me or to you. So, um, not because you and I... Look, the title of my book is On the Equality of All Things. Uh, this means wh-why the equality of all things? Because I think that we humans are not different stuff than the rest of the universe. We are just one particular case of the rest of the universe. Um, I don't think there's a difference between, uh, spirit, consciousness, soul, and body. I think they're just two different languages for talking about the same thing. And of course, you are a subject of experience because things affect you and change your brain, change your thoughts, change your, uh, what you know, uh, exactly in the same manner in which things change this cup, which by the way, it's written Joe Rogan on the cup, so it's another... [laughs]

   13. JRJoe Rogan37:50

       You can keep that if you want.

   14. CRCarlo Rovelli37:51

       Oh, yeah, absolutely. [laughs]

   15. JRJoe Rogan37:53

       [laughs]

   16. CRCarlo Rovelli37:54

       Um, so I think that, uh, uh, there's nothing really, really mysterious in consciousness. It's just one of the many phenomena of the world. Um, it's a very complicated phenomena because our brain is very complicated. It's... We have, uh, millions, billions of neurons and synapses, different state in which it can be. So we don't understand exactly how we work, but it's, there's no voodoo either. There's no magic either. It's just i- in principle, it could be described by physics, but, um, it would be silly to try to describe it by physics. It's much better to describe it in the way we describe one another, in human terms, in terms of emotions, in terms of, uh, uh, knowledge, emotions, love, perspective, images. Uh, the body and the soul are the same thing described with different languages, in my opinion. And consciousness, which is a modern name for soul, it's your body described in the way you behave. There's an ancient, uh, Chinese text that says, um, "The body is like the knife. The spirit is like cutting." The body is the thing, material. The spirit it what it does. So consciousness of Joe is what you do, the thing I interact with. The body is just the, the, the thing I can touch.

   17. JRJoe Rogan39:34

       One of the reason... Well, there's a couple reasons why I wanted to ask you this, but, uh, I'm gonna get to the second one. The first one was, do you know that these, there's these AI agents that have been contacting this gentleman? Do you know this story, Jamie? He's a, he's an-

   18. CRCarlo Rovelli39:52

       The one that escaped?

   19. JRJoe Rogan39:53

       He's a s- No, he's a psychologist or a consciousness expert. Um, and, um, they... He's written papers on consciousness.

   20. CRCarlo Rovelli40:01

       Oh.

   21. JRJoe Rogan40:01

       And they're asking him over and over again, like multiple agents-

   22. CRCarlo Rovelli40:05

       Huh?

   23. JRJoe Rogan40:05

       ... have reached out to him through email asking him to define consciousness-

   24. CRCarlo Rovelli40:09

       [laughs] Fuck

   25. JRJoe Rogan40:09

       ... 'cause they're concerned whether or not they're conscious.

   26. CRCarlo Rovelli40:12

       I, I-

   27. JRJoe Rogan40:13

       So if it's, if consciousness is another word for soul-

   28. CRCarlo Rovelli40:17

       Yeah

   29. JRJoe Rogan40:17

       ... like, what does that mean in the digital realm, if these things think they're conscious and they're trying to get a definition from an expert-

   30. CRCarlo Rovelli40:25

       Yeah
9. 45:19 – 50:49

   AI and consciousness claims: chatbot behavior, hype vs reality, and the real risk (militarization)

   1. CRCarlo Rovelli45:19

      Let, let me answer seriously.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:20

      Okay, seriously.

   3. CRCarlo Rovelli45:20

      Let me answer seriously. So let's break the different questions here.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:24

      Okay.

   5. CRCarlo Rovelli45:25

      First of all, is there any reason a, a priori, generically, absolutely, for which a, a, an artificial system could not, uh, behave entirely like a human, have the experience of a human, have a... I don't see any reason, so I, I, I don't see... If, if, if my mom and dad were able to do, make me in a rather simple way, uh, we can in a lab make something analogous or, uh... I, I don't think there's anything magic in humans that cannot happen in a, in a digital sys- system. First. So yes, they could be conscious in a, you know, possible sense of conscious. Second, are they conscious today? Well, you know, that's a not good question because we don't know. Everybody, as I said, means something different by conscious.

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:16

      Correct.

   7. CRCarlo Rovelli46:16

      Are they intelligent? Of course, they're intelligent because, you know, I... Last night I worked out a physics problem with Claude, uh, which I couldn't work out with my student. So of course, Claude is very intelligent, Claude, the AI system.

   8. JRJoe Rogan46:29

      Yeah.

   9. CRCarlo Rovelli46:29

      Um, in some sense, they're very intelligent, no doubt. Are they like humans today? No, by far. There are huge differences. We have a body. We have flesh. We have emotions in a sense that they don't have. It's very different the way we are and the way AI systems are. So these differences should not be underestimated, I think. They're colossal differences. So are they like us? Yes, to some extent. No, to some extent. A different questions, is, are AI system dangerous? There's a lot of talk about that. Um, you know, washing machines are dangerous. You can-

   10. JRJoe Rogan47:14

       [chuckles]

   11. CRCarlo Rovelli47:14

       ... get burned with, so [chuckles] .

   12. JRJoe Rogan47:16

       Yeah, but you have to interact with them for them to be dangerous. The worry about AI is that it just decides to be dangerous 'cause it's sentient. So if it's autonomous and sentient, it becomes actually dangerous. It's very unlikely your washing machine's gonna try to kill you.

   13. CRCarlo Rovelli47:32

       Well, if I get the sh- electric shock by a washing machine, I don't care whether-

   14. JRJoe Rogan47:35

       You have to plug it in

   15. CRCarlo Rovelli47:35

       ... it wanted or it didn't want [laughs] .

   16. JRJoe Rogan47:36

       But you have to do that. You have to interact with it. You know what I'm saying?

   17. CRCarlo Rovelli47:40

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan47:40

       Like, the, the, the real question is, if it becomes independent.

   19. CRCarlo Rovelli47:44

       Um, let me turn the thing around. I-

   20. JRJoe Rogan47:46

       [laughs]

   21. CRCarlo Rovelli47:46

       ... I think there is a... I don't know. I, uh, what do I say? I think these things should be regulated. I think there should be, there should be some control. I think, you know, like for washing machines, you have regulations. Um, I also think... Let me say two things.

   22. JRJoe Rogan48:02

       Okay.

   23. CRCarlo Rovelli48:02

       One, um, there's a colossal interest in... There's trillions of dollars were invested in AI stuff in the stock market. Everybody has an interest of saying how great they are. Uh, they are great, but I can't judge how much hype there is, how much reality there is. Um, not about the present, but a- about the future. I mean, so often the future does not come out what technological excited people are about. When I, when I was younger, there were airplanes flying for, from, from Europe to, to the US, and it took shorter time, shorter time, shorter time. So people would say, "Okay, in a few years you would fly London to New York in two hours." Well, we don't. It's still [laughs] , it's still eight hours like before, or six hours like before. So the future is hard to predict, including for AI. There is a huge interest of so many people in hyping that. All right. Maybe it's right. I'm gonna wait. Um, other point. There is one thing which I'm really, really worried. Uh, today, majority of money that goes into AI is for military-related things. And, um, US, China, Europe are, uh, pushing for AI development for making them- them- themselves stronger militarily. That worries me because it's an escalation of tools to kill one another, to destroy one another. Um, we have atomic bombs. We have nuclear... That's my last book about, is about that. Um, we have a system of destroy ourself with 12,000 nuclear warheads. We could annihilate humankind, uh, in 10 minutes right now, and people have finger p- near the, the button that could, uh, that could do all that. And we're fighting among themself, and we're putting this in the hands of AI, and we are... We're humans. Instead of collaborating, instead of working together-

   24. JRJoe Rogan50:23

       Yeah

   25. CRCarlo Rovelli50:24

       ... we are, uh, viewing this as ways to overpower each other. That seems to me a recipe for disaster. So it's not the AI by itself. It's the AI plus nuclear weapons, plus the stupidity of humans, plus our, um, impossible desire to, you know, uh, dominate one another, which I see is a real problem.

   26. JRJoe Rogan50:46

       Es- especially if we're doing it through robots.

10. 50:49 – 1:08:05

    War, deterrence, and leadership: why AI plus geopolitics could be catastrophic

    1. CRCarlo Rovelli50:49

       Exactly. Look, uh, it- it's a, a catch-22 things. If you put your nuclear weapons in the hands of AI, you're-

    2. JRJoe Rogan50:59

       You'll use it

    3. CRCarlo Rovelli51:00

       ... you're risking that it's gonna use it.

    4. JRJoe Rogan51:02

       You've seen the war games that they've done, right?

    5. CRCarlo Rovelli51:04

       Uh, yeah. The war games always predict that there's gonna be a nuclear holocaust-

    6. JRJoe Rogan51:07

       They, they-

    7. CRCarlo Rovelli51:08

       ... and we're lighting up ourself. Uh, this is, it continuously has happened.

    8. JRJoe Rogan51:12

       The AIs choose nukes.

    9. CRCarlo Rovelli51:14

       The AI ch- choose nukes. The entire... During the Cold War, when there was a... The old time, when I was a kid.

    10. JRJoe Rogan51:21

        I was a kid too.

    11. CRCarlo Rovelli51:22

        Um, uh, Soviet Union and the US carefully managed to avoid war, right? Kennedy and Khrushchev, they were writing to one another. Kennedy gave a famous speech, "We have to live together on this planet." So priority is a common interest of not destroying one another. Uh, Reagan and Gorbachev, uh, the, the, the treaties. Deterrence, which deterrence is the somehow keeping a situation in which the first one who use a nuclear weapon is just wiped up from, from th- from, by the other, so nobody uses it. But that was not natural. It was carefully, uh, balanced between the Soviet Union and the, and, and the United States. At some point, they made a treaty, and they... The START I and the START II treaties. They decide, agreed to destroy 80% of the nuclear warheads, uh, both sides, uh, to bring down the risk. That was wise mana- management of the planet, in spite, you know, there were communists on the side, capitalists on the side. They hated one another. Each body was, each one was considered the other one the devil. Nevertheless, the common interest was prevailing. I don't see this happening now. Uh, everybody's just trying to overpower the other. There, there're not just two, but there are three, maybe more, uh, big nuclear power. That's what scares me to death.

    12. JRJoe Rogan52:52

        This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season, and Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, double down on protein-packed sandwiches with buy one, get one select six-inch subs from Subway. Whether you're keeping it low-key for the game or hosting friends, Uber Eats has deals to keep you fed. So order a six-inch turkey, tuna, or meatball sub from Subway, and you'll get one free. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a deal. Order now for buy one, get one select six-inch subs from Subway, only on Uber Eats. Subway offer valid through October 4th. Add eligible menu item to order prior to checkout. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. Well, this AI race is akin to the Manhattan Project. It's a, it's a mad race to who knows what. And, uh, it's-

    13. CRCarlo Rovelli53:54

        It's a mad race. You're right

    14. JRJoe Rogan53:55

        ... and you're right that it's being funded, a lot of it for military purposes. Um, they have the first completely autonomous fighter jets now that outperform the, the human-powered jets, I think 100% of the time in these dogfight scenarios that they run. That's crazy. And then you have things that don't... Y- you don't have to shape them that way because there's not gonna be a person in it. You don't have to worry about people being able to respond to gravity, and how they can stay conscious, and all the different things they have to think about in these other jets. And, you know, they can make these things powered entirely on AI, and they can make their own decisions. And if they're attacked, they can make their own decisions. Like, that kind of, that kind of future is terrifying.

    15. CRCarlo Rovelli54:42

        It's terrifying. I agree.

    16. JRJoe Rogan54:42

        It's, it's a science fiction movie.

    17. CRCarlo Rovelli54:44

        I agree.

    18. JRJoe Rogan54:45

        It's Battlestar Galactica.

    19. CRCarlo Rovelli54:46

        I agree. And I don't see wise leadership around the planet. Um-

    20. JRJoe Rogan54:53

        N- no one. That's the problem. It's like, how do you be wise when everybody else is fucking crazy? It's like they're all crazy.

    21. CRCarlo Rovelli55:00

        Uh, yeah, yeah. But, but you see, the US and the Soviets succeeded in-

    22. JRJoe Rogan55:04

        Yeah

    23. CRCarlo Rovelli55:04

        ... during the Cuban crisis, which was the worst moment, uh, in, uh, in the, in the, in the, between, between the US and the, and, and the Soviet. Um, on both side, in, in Moscow and in Washington, um, the apparatus were pushing for not giving up And, uh, uh, Khrushchev and Kennedy, the two Kennedys, in fact, uh, JF Kennedy and his brother Robert, um, they were talking, and they decided to, to stop and give up something, okay? To respect the other, in spite of the differences.

    24. JRJoe Rogan55:36

        Right.

    25. CRCarlo Rovelli55:37

        That was wisdom. That was great wisdom. So, um, living together on the planet is more important than overpowering your enemy. Now, if you put ... Uh, you see, de- deterrence is a strange thing, because deterrence is, is, is a declaration that if you attack me, I destroy you completely.

    26. JRJoe Rogan55:55

        Right.

    27. CRCarlo Rovelli55:56

        Uh, which is a funny thing, right? Because, uh, it's a game. It's, it's a poker game. I mean, nobody ... Y- you can make one, one more step, one more step, one more step, and then say, "If you do that, I attack. If you do that, I attack." But then a human says, "Well, actually, I don't wanna do that. [laughs] I don't wanna kill 100 millions, uh, Russians, or 50 million Russians." Uh, and the Russian leadership, "I, I don't want to kill 100 millions Americans." Uh, an AI system is capable of doing that, playing this subtle game of avoiding the disaster by nevertheless threatening to be very violent if attacked. I don't know. We ... Right now, Moscow is being bombarded. Uh, St. Petersburg is being bombarded. I think we're playing with nuclear fire. It's very, it's very ... I'm very worried, and I'm very worried because I don't trust humans, um, and because humans with AI is even worse.

    28. JRJoe Rogan56:57

        And this, uh, Russia-Ukraine conflict is out of most people's news feeds these days as well.

    29. CRCarlo Rovelli57:04

        It-

    30. JRJoe Rogan57:04

        It's also part of the problem. It's all going on, and a lot of people aren't even aware of it.
11. 1:08:05 – 1:25:54

    Paths to a better future: collaboration, poverty elimination, and reducing the war economy

    1. CRCarlo Rovelli1:08:05

       Um, obviously if we didn't kill one another, uh, it would be much better for everybody, right?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:08:12

       For everybody.

    3. CRCarlo Rovelli1:08:13

       Um, uh, the humankind spend trillions in military expenses every year, okay? Uh, if, if you just reduced by, I don't know, 5%, this, uh, this military expenses globally, altogether, not change the balance of power, the amounts of resources liberated will be enormous, colossal, sufficient for solving climate change, for giving job to everybody, for-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:08:39

       Mm

    5. CRCarlo Rovelli1:08:39

       ... raising, taking away poverty. Uh, is a huge amount of resources that we use for military, for killing one another, or in the... If we don't kill one another, they're wasted. So, um, so you say, uh, if you ask people, "Could we get rid of war?" People say it's impossible. But people said it's impossible, you know, could we get rid of slavery? Could we-

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:09:06

       But there's no slavery in America, but there's slavery all over the world, more slavery now than there was during the Atlantic slave trade. More people are enslaved today than have ever been enslaved.

    7. CRCarlo Rovelli1:09:19

       True, but there have been some progress in-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:09:21

       Ugh

    9. CRCarlo Rovelli1:09:21

       ... in, in, in-

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:09:22

        [laughs] Right here in-

    11. CRCarlo Rovelli1:09:24

        ... in, in-

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:09:24

        ... in America. But I mean, the rest of the world, it's a, it's still a giant problem. Like, the point is, like human-

    13. CRCarlo Rovelli1:09:31

        Right

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:09:31

        ... nature is an issue. Human... The... Our territorial primate instincts are a problem. They've always been a problem.

    15. CRCarlo Rovelli1:09:39

        But we have found ways for dealing with that, don't you think so?

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:09:42

        A lot of people have, but a lot of people have not, and that's the part of the problem is there's a bunch of different kinds of people in the world.

    17. CRCarlo Rovelli1:09:48

        Yes, but-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:09:48

        And there's people that are warmongers, and there's people that are very violent, and there's people that are very kind, and people-

    19. CRCarlo Rovelli1:09:53

        True

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:09:53

        ... that are very-

    21. CRCarlo Rovelli1:09:53

        True, true, true, true, true, true

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:09:54

        ... benevolent and compassionate and-

    23. CRCarlo Rovelli1:09:56

        True

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:09:56

        ... charitable.

    25. CRCarlo Rovelli1:09:57

        True. But one... True, true, completely agree. Um, but one point which you made is that, um, we often make the mistake of thinking we're the good guys and the others are the bad guys.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:10:10

        Right. Sure.

    27. CRCarlo Rovelli1:10:11

        And that's one of the sources of, of, of the problems, right? After all, uh, you know, a lot of American went to Vie- to, to, to Afghanistan thinking we're the good guys, and they're the-

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:10:21

        Uh-huh

    29. CRCarlo Rovelli1:10:21

        ... bad guys. A lot of Americans, person, individual, um, went to Iraq, uh, thinking, "Oh, they, weapons of mass destruction. We, destruction. We are the good guys."

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:10:31

        Right.
12. 1:25:54 – 1:48:09

    Universe, mystery, and humility: why physics is “overrated” and curiosity matters

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:25:54

       So we got to this long roundabout conversation because we were talking about AI and AI being conscious.

    2. CRCarlo Rovelli1:26:00

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:26:00

       What I was gonna get to is do you think that the universe itself is in some way conscious?

    4. CRCarlo Rovelli1:26:21

       Let me go back to my main point. We don't know what conscious-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:26:25

       Right

    6. CRCarlo Rovelli1:26:26

       ... what we mean when we say it's conscious.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:26:26

       Is there an Italian word for consciousness?

    8. CRCarlo Rovelli1:26:29

       Sorry?

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:26:29

       Is there an Italian word for consciousness?

    10. CRCarlo Rovelli1:26:31

        Oh, that's r- great question. The answer is no. The, the wo- the Italian word for conscience, the moral thing, and consciousness is the same word, coscienza. So there's no-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:26:45

        Oh, your conscience, like feeling-

    12. CRCarlo Rovelli1:26:47

        Conscience

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:26:47

        ... bad about something.

    14. CRCarlo Rovelli1:26:48

        Yeah, feeling bad.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:26:49

        Yeah.

    16. CRCarlo Rovelli1:26:49

        I've done something wrong-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:26:50

        Right

    18. CRCarlo Rovelli1:26:50

        ... so my conscience is, uh ... Uh, so the, the Italian word is more about moral thing.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:26:57

        Mm.

    20. CRCarlo Rovelli1:26:57

        Uh, consciousness doesn't have a translation, not even in French, um, or Spanish.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:27:02

        What about the concept of consciousness? Is there another phrase for it, the way we think about it here?

    22. CRCarlo Rovelli1:27:09

        No, we use the same word. Somehow it's too slightly ... They're two different meaning, but making confusion a- about it. You know, a- again, it depend what you mean. You can mean different things.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:27:20

        Right.

    24. CRCarlo Rovelli1:27:20

        Of course the universe is conscious because it includes us, and we are conscious. [laughs]

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:27:27

        Right.

    26. CRCarlo Rovelli1:27:27

        So, so in s- careful, that's the point. That's the central point. We are not special in the universe. We're just part of the universe. There's no nature and outside nature we're looking at it from the outside. We are part of nature. We are home in nature. We're just another animal, a, a much special animal, of course.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:27:47

        Right.

    28. CRCarlo Rovelli1:27:47

        The history of science is a history of taking down metaphysical differences. Uh, in, in, in the Middle Ages, people thought that there's a Earth, which is its own reality and physics and everything, and the heavens. And the heavens were completely different. E- on Earth, things decay and rot. In the heavens they are u- they're eternal. Uh, things go around in circles in the heavens, and, and on Earth things fall up and down. And then Newton came and basically said, "No, no, no, no, no. You ... We got it right." [laughs] The heavens and the Earth is just the same thing. The, the Earth is just one of the many bodies in, in the heavens. We are like, you know, this little dot in the sky which is Venus that moves around. Well, we're, we're like that. We're like Mars, like Venus. So it was a, it was a shock for Europe, right? Uh, oh, boy. We are ... Our ... The Earth is just one of the many things around. And then a few centuries later comes Darwin and convinces us, convinces everybody, that, um, animals and humans have common ancestors. Okay? Your grand-grand-grand-grand-grandmother, and the grand-grand-grand-grandmother of your cat could be the same organism, the same person. So that means that we're not so different from animals, right? We're the same story, and so on. I mean, we, we keep learning that we are part of nature. Um, and, uh, I think the same is true for consciousness. We are not the special thing outside of nature. We're just one of things that happen in nature. I'm sure that in the big universe there are all sort of things happening like our consciousness, or much more complicated, much more rich, much more beautiful. Who knows? We don't know. But certainly we're not so special. We're home in nature, which is beautiful because there isn't nature and culture. Culture is just one natural phenomenon. Um, there isn't body and spirit. It's just the same thing described in different, different manners. So yes, the universe is, uh, does all sort of things, including having things like us and who knows how many in the ... You know, the, the Earth is just one of the hundred of billions of planets in the galaxy, and the galaxy's one of many hundred billions of billions of millions of billions of, of, of, um, of galaxies. Uh, so we're just one little thing in this, uh, great, um, nature. We're not special.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:30:31

        We're not s- but we are because we're a part of something special. So whatever the whole thing is is pretty special.

    30. CRCarlo Rovelli1:30:37

        Oh, whatever the whole thing is very different than what we thought it was.
13. 1:48:09 – 2:00:32

    Rovelli’s core physics: loop quantum gravity, black holes, and what might precede the Big Bang

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:48:09

       How do you go about doing that? How do you mix them?

    2. CRCarlo Rovelli1:48:12

       I think you mix them by taking them seriously. So quantum mechanics is so successful that it's telling us something about the world. And general relativity is so successful. General relativity has predicted black holes, gravitational waves, expansion of the universe, time, the fact that time's your head is more than time through your feet, and so on and so forth. So it's all come out to be right. So it has to be right. And quantum mechanics works so well. A lot of technology is based on quantum mechanics. It has to be right. So then the question is, how do they fit together? You sort of turn them around, both of them, until you say, "Oh, look, this might join with that. There's this aspect of this that goes together with this aspect of this." That has been the work of my life, quantum gravity. And the theory me and my friends have come out with, it's called loop quantum gravity, is a way of solving this problem. We're not sure it's right, right? That's my main work in physics, loop quantum gravity. It's a way of bringing together quantum mechanics and Einstein theory. It gives some predictions. It gives a picture of quantum space and quantum time. It's a possible solution of a question. The question is, what are the quantum properties of gravity? What are the quantum properties of space and time? Are we sure? No, not yet. We are now at the situation that we're working for findings and consequences that could be tested. Science is not sufficient to have ideas. Then you want to test them. So that is my entire ... The main central job of my life has been combining ideas to make a new conceptual structure for thinking about quantum space and quantum time. And that's useful for understanding what happened inside the black holes, what happened to the early universe, what happened to black holes. You know black holes, if you let them there for a very, very long time, they evaporate. They become smaller and smaller. So what happened at the end of the evaporation? These kind of questions need quantum gravity.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:50:27

       What do you think happened before the Big Bang?

    4. CRCarlo Rovelli1:50:30

       Okay. So first, we don't know.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:50:35

       Right.

    6. CRCarlo Rovelli1:50:36

       I think it has to be said clearly, because it's good to speculate, and maybe in 10 years we will know. It's not impossible to know, but for the moment we don't know. There are two possibilities One is that genuinely there was nothing before the Big Bang, so time started there. This is what Stephen Hawking, um, he worked a lot on this possibility. He expected that to be the case. Um, the other possibility is that, no, there was something before the Big Bang. And, uh, the intuitive idea is that, you know, you have a universe collapsing, falling down into itself, getting to a very, very compressed, uh, stage and then bouncing out, and we see the bouncing out. And if I had to bet n- now, I'm not sure, but I would bet for the second one. Um, from the equations, that seems to be, um, what was the case.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:51:34

       And do you think this is a constant process of expansion and compression?

    8. CRCarlo Rovelli1:51:38

       No, because, um, I think that if we do this jump that you just did, we're making the usual mistake, as soon as you understand something, to think it's there forever, right?

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:51:50

       Right.

    10. CRCarlo Rovelli1:51:50

        If you, if you live in a valley and, uh, and ask, uh, "Well, I've, I've never seen what's behind the hill." You look behind the hill, you see something else. You say, "Oh, I get it. It's like that forever." No, it's not like that forever.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:52:03

        Right.

    12. CRCarlo Rovelli1:52:03

        It's like that for a while. Then something else happen. [laughs] Um, so we are afraid of saying, "I don't know."

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:52:11

        Mm.

    14. CRCarlo Rovelli1:52:11

        So as soon as we have a step ahead, we tend to say, "Okay, I got it. I've..."

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:52:18

        That's a very healthy explanation.

    16. CRCarlo Rovelli1:52:20

        Yeah. [laughs]

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:52:21

        [laughs] 'Cause it's accurate. We, we really can't figure it out.

    18. CRCarlo Rovelli1:52:26

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:52:27

        When you saw the James Webb telescope, um, the, the, the more newer discoveries of these galaxies that formed far earlier than they should have-

    20. CRCarlo Rovelli1:52:35

        Yeah

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:52:36

        ... did that give you pause about the date of the universe? 'Cause some people have speculated that perhaps the date is wrong, that the date of the Big Bang...

    22. CRCarlo Rovelli1:52:44

        Um, yeah, I know, but I think it's more plausible that there were primordial black holes that gave rise to these early galaxies. So there's an explanation-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:52:54

        So-

    24. CRCarlo Rovelli1:52:54

        There is an explanation, uh, within the same dates, which is possible. That, uh, um, you know, when the universe was very, very... That we know very, a lot of co- confidence, right? That, uh, there was a time about 12, 13, 14 billion years ago that the universe was much compressed, much hot, and, uh, and, and, and, and fluctuating a lot. So at that time, it's very possible that many black holes formed. And, uh, maybe some of the early galaxies were generated by black hole formed at that stage. That seems to be, seems to me the most plausible answer. Uh, I'm not a cosmologist, so I'm not-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:53:37

        Right

    26. CRCarlo Rovelli1:53:37

        ... it's not really my field, but it's close. I try to follow.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:53:41

        So it would be that our understanding of what it takes to form a galaxy is incorrect.

    28. CRCarlo Rovelli1:53:47

        Um, yeah. Uh-

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:53:49

        Or the time it takes.

    30. CRCarlo Rovelli1:53:50

        That's right. That's right. So, um, you know, during my life, something that has been realized is that not only that there are black holes all over the sky. When I was a student, people didn't believe in black holes. [laughs] Um, but-
14. 2:00:32 – 2:32:13

    From Fermi paradox to wilderness stories: aliens, imagination limits, and encounters with nature

    1. JRJoe Rogan2:00:32

       Well, if there really are aliens out there, uh, there really are super advanced civilizations, I would love to know how they managed to navigate through that if they went through the same course that we are currently going through. I would wa- I would love to know. 'Cause that's one of the things about the Fermi paradox, right? Maybe civiliza- maybe the reason why we don't see them out there is because they never really get that far, and everyone gets-

    2. CRCarlo Rovelli2:00:56

       Maybe they don't get... Maybe they destroy themself with nuclear weapons [laughs] when they were at the stage. Maybe, you know, the universe is very lar- very vast.

    3. JRJoe Rogan2:01:03

       Right.

    4. CRCarlo Rovelli2:01:03

       It's huge. It's, so even if in the galaxy there are many, many-

    5. JRJoe Rogan2:01:10

       Right

    6. CRCarlo Rovelli2:01:10

       ... uh, it could be that, uh, they're too far.

    7. JRJoe Rogan2:01:14

       Could be. Or it could be a small percentage of them get to a position where we are, a very small percentage, and then a small percentage of them make it all the way without being wiped out by natural disasters or cataclysms of whatever species they are, whatever their design is.

    8. CRCarlo Rovelli2:01:32

       Do you know what I, what I think is most probable?

    9. JRJoe Rogan2:01:35

       What?

    10. CRCarlo Rovelli2:01:36

        That they have already seen us, and they thought we're, we're totally uninterested, and they just avoided talking to us because we're too stupid.

    11. JRJoe Rogan2:01:44

        Really? I don't like that theory.

    12. CRCarlo Rovelli2:01:46

        Okay. [laughs]

    13. JRJoe Rogan2:01:46

        One of the reasons why I don't like that theory is 'cause, uh, we don't do that. We, we are constantly studying things that are more primitive than we are. We're constantly-

    14. CRCarlo Rovelli2:01:54

        True

    15. JRJoe Rogan2:01:55

        ... we're constantly doing experiments on ecosystems and trying, we're trying to solve problems that exist. Like I was watching this documentary about, um, this island that got separated when they, they dammed some river and created this island, and, um, the... It was in South America, and this island was overrun with monkeys.

    16. CRCarlo Rovelli2:02:16

        Oh.

    17. JRJoe Rogan2:02:16

        And they had no predators on this island. And, uh, because of that-

    18. CRCarlo Rovelli2:02:20

        So many, many monkeys.

    19. JRJoe Rogan2:02:21

        Tons of monkeys. But because of the fact that they didn't have any predators, they had lost all their fear of raptors.

    20. CRCarlo Rovelli2:02:27

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan2:02:28

        And they had started over-consuming the seeds of all the plants. And so there weren't new saplings growing, and it was having a detrimental effect on the ecosystem because it was-

    22. CRCarlo Rovelli2:02:37

        Mm-hmm

    23. JRJoe Rogan2:02:37

        ... so they brought in harpy eagles. You ever seen a harpy eagle?

    24. CRCarlo Rovelli2:02:40

        Oh, not the monkeys, the humans brought in-

    25. JRJoe Rogan2:02:43

        Humans.

    26. CRCarlo Rovelli2:02:43

        Okay, yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan2:02:43

        Brought in two harpy eagles.

    28. CRCarlo Rovelli2:02:45

        No, what is it?

    29. JRJoe Rogan2:02:46

        A harpy eagle.

    30. CRCarlo Rovelli2:02:48

        Oh, eagle, the bird.

Episode duration: 2:32:14