The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #2574 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,025 words- 0:00 – 0:02
Intro
- JRJoe Rogan
[upbeat music]
- 0:02 – 1:32
Brazil election rumors and the challenge of verifying basic facts
- JRJoe Rogan
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music] To me, Batman. [laughs] Always good to see you guys. Um, I haven't talked to anybody about this, so I'd like to talk to you guys about it. Do you know what the fuck is going on in Brazil? No, not, not, not intimately. Not specifically? Not specifically. But the, the, uh, Flavio Bolsonaro, who is the son of the guy, Jair Bolsonaro- Right ... he was one of the candidates in the election, and then the moment that the election finished, they took his passport away, and he, I think he's ended up fleeing to the US now. Is that right? I don't know. Yeah. I've heard that he fled, but I don't know if there's, uh, any evidence. Yeah. I mean, that's just like Twitter talk. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But that's cr- but first of all, just taking his passport right away is kind of crazy. And I think they did warn him as well. They said, uh, the, hi- the Lula said, "If I'm elected," you know. It was kind of like, uh, you're gonna be in jail when Trump said it to Hillary, but they followed through. [laughs] But what was the, what are the charges? Like, what are they, uh- I don't know the details of it, Joe. But the whole thing was, so it was someone that was his, uh, b- Lula's former defense attorney he elected to the Supreme Court of Brazil, and then that person opened up the polls for an additional two hours, and that allowed Lula to win. Is that accurate? I think so. Yeah, that bit I think is, is- Yeah ... that's what I saw.
- 1:32 – 5:45
Fake stories, bots, and the idea of “digital border enforcement”
- JRJoe Rogan
But this is the thing is, like, you have to really do a lot of research now to even know the basic facts of anything. Right. So if you just see something on X or Facebook or whatever, y- I str- I, I am hesitant to believe it now off the top. Do you know what I mean? 100%. The, I, I read stories all day that I know are fake immediately. Mm. And it's like, "Breaking," and then you read the thing- [laughs] ... in all caps. Yeah. And you read, and you're like, oh, this is a fake story. Yeah. And there's a lot of them. They're all, they're all over the place. Right. And I think they've done something where you don't get monetized for those, so you can't make money off of them, so there's less of an incentive. But if the goal is just propaganda, then they don't care about the money. Like, if these are, if this is a country or a government that's involved in doing this, or someone, you know, with a vested interest in fucking up American politics or Brazilian politics- Mm-hmm ... or whatever, you just, who cares if we're making money? What we wanna do is fuck up the waters. We wanna muddy up the waters so nobody knows what the fuck is real. Um, if there's, you know, people that are voting, we want them to be completely confused- Mm-hmm ... or lied to, where they have a totally incorrect narrative of what's going on. And you see so much of it. And you know, like, I feel like maybe when there's a fact-check, like, like a Grok fact-check, and it proves to be absolutely incorrect, maybe they should, like, just take it down- Mm ... so that you don't have to go into the thread. 'Cause I'll go into the thr- I'll read something. I'm like, all right, that's fake. Mm. And I'll go into the thread. I'm like, where was, where does someone ask Grok? And someone asks Grok, and it says, "No, this is not correct," and then Grok lays it out. Maybe then they should take it down. Right. Because you just- Right ... there's, it's just your timeline, it's just flooded by straight horseshit. Mm. Completely made-up stories about, you know, people being arrested, and you'll have AI photos of someone handcuffed. It's crazy. Mm. It's really crazy. And then amplified by bots- Yeah ... or foreign, foreign actors as well. Yeah. I mean, that's one, that's one of the interesting areas where I think there's probably a solution, which is kind of like digital border enforcement, where you actually know that people are commenting on this and where they're commenting from. Right. Because I think most people get their political opinions from other people. They don't necessarily have a, they, they don't sit down for three hours and think about this stuff. Right. They just go, "This seems to be what everyone thinks." Right. And that's where this kind of manipulation is so powerful, because you're creating the idea that a narrative is popular. Right. And a lot of people then go, "Well, maybe that's what I should believe." Especially with the bots. Yeah. 'Cause you'll have a story that's clearly either biased or full of shit, totally, and then you'll have a bunch of bots agreeing with it, and s- you know, saying what should be done to these people, and this is a, this is an outrage. And then you find out it's completely fabricated. Mm. And you're like, "Well, what are they doing?" Mm. Like, what's happening here? Like, why are there so many of these, you know, Bob67432- [laughs] ... people that are commenting on this? Mm. And what are they trying to prove, or what are they trying to push? Mm, mm. And it's not just that. It's also you get certain influencers, and you see them come up on your timeline time and time and time again with these takes that are just straight-out ridiculous, but they... And then you look underneath, and you look at the amount of retweets, you look at the engagement. You go, you think to yourself, "That, that, that just can't be real," 'cause that is such a ridiculous take that they've just given you. But the engagement is unreal, and then you see it time and time again from the same influencers. Yeah. Well, I think just becoming outrageous is profitable, right? Yeah. That's a problem. Yeah. So, like, you could just have a take. Like, so let's take out fake stories. So you could just have a contrarian take that's preposterous and just gets you angry the moment you read it, and then you see, "Ah, fuck you." And then, but that's- That's engagement.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what these people want, and some people on Twitter are, they just engage- exist for engagement.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're not good faith actors. They're just weird people that, you know, are probably on all sorts of weird drugs. [laughs]
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
And they're somewhere just fucking tweeting up a storm.
- 5:45 – 6:16
Outrage-for-profit: monetization incentives and negative engagement
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah, and it's also as well, because, uh, now you can monetize your X-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- FFFrancis Foster
... that means that that's incentivized people to create posts that are gonna get more engagement.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FFFrancis Foster
And what's, uh, what's one really easy way of guaranteeing engagement is negative engagement.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FFFrancis Foster
If you piss people off, if you say something that's outrageous, that's far easier to then get people engaging with you than to do something funny or to-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. All right, mate, take it easy.
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
That's been our business model for a year and a half years. You're fucking ruining it. [laughs]
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- 6:16 – 8:48
Longform conversation vs “gotcha” media and bad-faith guests
- JRJoe Rogan
But actually, I, I mean, we're joking obviously. I'm actually really happy we, uh, this, in the last few episodes that we've put out on TRIGGERnometry, you've got, um, we've got David Pakman, who's a left-wing guy, Dave Smith, who's like a libertarian guy, and we've got Steven Crowder coming out, uh, soon. So we'd like, we actually got to the point where we always wanted to be, where we're talking to everybody. Mm-hmm. So what I always really enjoyed about you and the way you do it, you've always been able... I actually kind of marveled at how you were able to do it because when we started, we had a very hard time getting more of the left-leaning guests on. Yeah. You never seem to have that problem. You just get everybody on, and they're happy to come on and talk. Um, and I... That's what actually you need more of in the world. I think the outrage stuff you're talking about, it really pushes people apart. We're really interested in how do you bring people together to have one conversation based on an agreed set of facts. I think as long as you're getting people that are honest, that are good faith conversationalists, you know? And I think that's, that is an issue, and I, that's what I don't wanna do anymore. I don't wanna have on, uh, these people that I think are full of shit, that are propagandists- Mm ... that are, uh, uh, that, that are loyal to a party to the point where they just distort facts- Mm ... or obfuscate, or talk over you when you're trying to make points. Mm. Like the Piers Morgan model, where you see like someone will be saying something, and the other person will just chime in and just b- b- talk over them to try to disrupt their pattern- Mm ... of thinking. It's very annoying and stupid, and I'm, I'm not interested in that at all. Yeah. And I, I'm not interested in talking to people that I think are just outright liars, unless I like have some fucking obligation to expose them, but I don't, I don't want to. I don't, I don't want that to be a thing that I want to do all the time, where it's just- Yeah ... bring on people that, "I know you're full of shit," and like say, "I've got the facts." Like, I like to talk to people that I'm interested in talking to. Mm. And that's my business model. I mean, it's not a business model. It's just like, it's what I started doing, and it's what I c- wanna keep doing. And if that, you know, like I was very interested in talking to Bernie again. Mm-hmm. You know? I, I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but I don't think he's a bad person, you know? And I think he, you know, he's an older guy with some ideals that just didn't pan out, and I think he still believes y- that there's like a way to do this that's different and better for the people and for the working people. But I think after a while, you say these words like... You know what it's like when you have an act- Mm-hmm ... and you've been doing a bit for a long time, and then the bit stops losing meaning. Mm. You just say it the way you've always said it, but it doesn't have any meaning to you anymore. And
- 8:48 – 16:08
Climate change confusion, UK heat/cold realities, and energy costs
- JRJoe Rogan
the bit starts to get stale. Mm. And it starts to die off, and if you're smart, you pull it out of the act, you put it on the shelf, and you go, "I gotta rework that thing," or something. It's like- Mm ... I don't, I'm not attached to it anymore. It doesn't feel real. I'm just saying it to go through the motions. That's how I feel like when he starts talking about climate change and stuff like that. [laughs] And I go, "Okay, what are we talking about? How much have you looked into it?" 'Cause if you really look into climate change, it's very fucking confusing. Mm. Like it's not as simple as... Like there was just an article today that someone sent me that they think that global warming may have stopped, uh, an imminent ice age [laughs] that was coming, which was one of the things that they were talking about like during the 1970s. That was a big thing. It was a big narrative about climate change. That was the big fear, was that a new ice age was coming. Mm. In fact, uh, an episode of that Leonard Nimoy show, did you ever watch that, In Search Of? Great fucking show. It was great, 'cause it was a mix of like horseshit, doom and gloom, Bigfoot, UFOs, all kinds of stuff. But it was Leonard Nimoy d- you know, Spock- [laughs] ... from Star Trek. And, uh, he had a whole article about imminent ice age, and that, like that's the thing that we really should be afraid of. It's a fucking terrifying proposition that the world freezes over again. 'Cause if it gets hot, you just move to the places that used to be cold. [laughs] And get air conditioning, right?
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And get air conditioning.
- FFFrancis Foster
We don't have air conditioning, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
In England?
- FFFrancis Foster
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
At all?
- FFFrancis Foster
No, no. Well, well, that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's why you guys die every year.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like more people die in England from... I think this is a fact. I think more people die in Eng- in, not in England, but in Europe, in all of Europe, from heat stroke during summer than gun violence in the United States. Mm. I might have made that up. Yeah. I- [laughs]
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
You know- Let's see. [laughs] But see, actually, so there is a serious point [laughs] in what you're saying. [laughs] I think it's, I think it's a high number, though. Because pe-
- FFFrancis Foster
But just, I was just gonna say.
- JRJoe Rogan
Go for it.
- FFFrancis Foster
Uh, uh, I was just gonna say, like that just sounds real.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- FFFrancis Foster
That sounds real. After the summer we've had-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it must be true.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] Well-
- FFFrancis Foster
It sounds real, so it must be
- JRJoe Rogan
... I don't understand why people haven't, uh, adopted air conditioning. Is it a f- a money thing? Well, it's the same green, uh, nonsense that you're talking about. Oh, no. Because air conditioning consumes e- a lot of energy, and it, it therefore causes more climate change, quote-unquote. Uh, actually, more people die in, in England from cold in winter than they die from heat. Here we go. Yeah. Europe had an esti- Okay, yes, if you mean deaths attributed to heat rather than specifically heatstroke. Yeah. European heat death estimates can exceed the total number of US firearm deaths. [laughs] But the compar- comparison needs a few qualifications. Same year comparison, Europe had an estimated 61,672 heat-related deaths during the summer. That's fucking crazy. United States recorded more than 48,000 firearm deaths over the entire year, according to the CDC. That includes suicides, homicides, and other firearm deaths, not just murders, including also cops shooting bad guys. So in that year, yes, uh, even Europe's summer heat death estimate exceeded America's full firearm death count. I w- well, heatstroke. We don't have to say heatstroke. That was a maybe a bad terminology, but just from heat. What about from cold? How many... Look, look up how many Europeans die from cold every year. What do you guess? Think it's more?
- KKKonstantin Kisin
I don't know about Europeans. In Britain, I know more people die from cold than heat, in Britain specifically.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow, that's crazy.
- FFFrancis Foster
That's crazy.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
I, I imagine in Italy, less so.
- JRJoe Rogan
That is crazy.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Like in the s- in the south.
- 16:08 – 20:20
Modeling vs “predictable science,” UK’s emissions share, and “green” profit motives
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm. And you, it's so interesting you use the word unscientific, because I often think about this. Uh, most of my family are scientists, uh, physi- physicists, biochemical engineers. The thing with, like when a normal person hears the word science, what they think is if I pick up this phone and drop it, it's gonna fall at a predictable speed because we understand the rules of gravity. We can calculate it. We can calculate the speed, the acceleration, all that stuff. Climate science is modeling. Modeling.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
That's not the s- it... I'm not saying it's not science exactly, but that's not what we think about as normal, just ordinary people when we think about science. We think of, about something that's 100% predictable, measurable, calculable. You can go, "If we change this, then this is gonna happen." Climate modeling, i- i- it's not like that. It's, it's an approximation and an estimate based on a lot of assumptions, and we don't know how accurate those assumptions are. But even if you accept all that, what's interesting is in Britain is do you know what percentage of global carbon emissions Britain produces?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, God, it's gotta be minuscule.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
1%.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
So if we reduced it to zero, we'd not have any impact on the climate at all while just des- destroying our economy, killing people, and that's what we've done. We have the highest industrial electricity prices in the world. That's why you can't-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- KKKonstantin Kisin
... you can't build anything in the UK. You can't run a business, an industrial business. You can't make anything. Um, you know, it's funny, you guys are having this big battle o- over data centers here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- KKKonstantin Kisin
We don't have that 'cause we're not fucking building [laughs] any-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Sheesh.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The other super inconvenient thing when it comes to carbon is that there's more vegetation, more leaf coverage-
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... in a, in the world now than there has been in a long fucking time.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Global greening.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's because of carbon, because plants actually consume carbon dioxide. It's like, like what are we doing? [laughs] Like, what are we, what are we freaking out about? Well, we're freaking out about a bunch of people that have engineered a narrative to get us to freak out about it so they can profit off of it, and that's the reality of it, is that all of these green deals and all this green energy, these people get contracts and these... And, and then there's mandates for what you can and can't use, and what you should and shouldn't do, and then people profit off of these directions that we go in, and that's the real problem. It's not like we're looking out for the world. Shut the fuck up. When people say that, "We need to look out for the world."
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, none of these people pushing this are looking out for the world, just so you know. You might be, you liberal lady in East Austin with the fucking "science is science" bumper sticker on your fucking Prius.
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Maybe. Maybe you really are a genuinely good person looking out for the... The people that are pushing that are not. They're trying to profit. They're sitting in boardrooms and they're showing spreadsheets of how much money they'll make if a certain bill goes through. Because if the certain bill restricts one type of energy and promotes their type of energy, even if their type of energy, like windmills, is terrible for the environment and radically inefficient, they're gonna profit, and that's what they're thinking about. And so then they're gonna pay politicians to push certain narratives, they're gonna fund these people, they're gonna put out advertisements for a greener Texas, you know, paid for by a greener Texas. Who's paying that? Corporations. People making large amounts of money, and they don't give a fuck about your environment. They want to make money. They're vampires. They're vampire people.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
And it's always been that way, like oil companies funded anti-nuclear.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Right.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
It, it's just that's how it works.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's how it works.
- 20:20 – 34:20
Marijuana politics, alcohol decline, GLP-1s, and Rogan’s supplement tangent
- JRJoe Rogan
In Texas, we have an issue right now where they're trying to ban marijuana, and why are they trying to do that? 'Cause alcohol sales are way down. Like way down.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like disturbingly down. And, uh, one factor that a lot of people aren't taking into consideration is GLP-1s. It's Ozempic.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
There are fucking millions of people-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
... on GLP, and millions more that are lying about being on it. [laughs]
- KKKonstantin Kisin
[laughs]
- FFFrancis Foster
It's so-
- JRJoe Rogan
I have a guy that I know is on them. I said, "Dude, you're looking great. What are you doing?" He's like, "Oh, calorie restriction." Well, technically you're not lying-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... but you're lying.
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
You're on Ozempic, motherfucker. You know what you're doing.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm-hmm.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah. It's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Embarrassing
- FFFrancis Foster
... I, you know, I always feel like when you talk about any issue, a, a lot of it just comes down to education. You know? People don't have a good grasp of actually what's happening, so what it is that people have inside them is a vacuum, and eventually something has to fill that vacuum.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FFFrancis Foster
Because you can't operate, particularly now, with it going, when someone asks you about whatever it is, climate change, the Middle East, a war in a... What-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- FFFrancis Foster
... whatever subject you wanna talk about, most people simply don't have the education, the answers. They don't have their own opinions, so they simply reach for something, and you know what you're gonna reach for? You're gonna reach for a slogan.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FFFrancis Foster
And it's gonna come from the most prominent person there is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I have a theory about why the left is so much more loony, in my opinion, currently. I mean, it's not like the right isn't loony. The like-
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
... right's very fucking loony. But the left is loony in some, like, things that don't make any sense, and, um, I think it's because the left is secular, like almost universally. Like, when you think about the left, you generally don't think about, like, Christianity or any, any religion-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... really.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm.
- 34:20 – 42:42
UK vs U.S. culture: lawsuits, service quality, and why cities stress people out
- FFFrancis Foster
But, um, I, like, you know, one of my, uh, one of my cousins, he... This is a true story. Uh, he was a cardiologist. He used to smoke like 40 a day.
- JRJoe Rogan
Great. [laughs]
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Perfect. Well, he's probably stressed out. He's probably got bills to pay and fucking... I don't know what you guys have over there because you have, uh, uh, your, your education isn't free.
- FFFrancis Foster
No, uh-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Up to what level?
- JRJoe Rogan
Up to, like, so for, to get a d- a doctor's degree.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
No, no, no.
- FFFrancis Foster
No, no, no.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
That's not free. No, no.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
It's free up until college.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
But then, then you have to pay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, and then what about liability insurance? Do you guys have outrageous liability insurance for doctors? 'Cause that's a giant issue with doctors in America.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
I don't think it's as outrageous as it is here because we, our laws are different and we're also not such a litigious culture. Like, a British person who's had a bad experience, unless it's really, really bad, will not be like, "I'm suing the fucking..." Like, we don't tend to do that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wouldn't that be nice?
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Wouldn't that be nice? Wouldn't that be nice?
- FFFrancis Foster
It's, it... Yeah, but you, there's a trade-off to it, which is, like, our service culture in the UK-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Oh, yeah
- FFFrancis Foster
... is objectively disgusting. [laughs]
- KKKonstantin Kisin
It's a lot closer to the Soviet Union than it is to America.
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Like, in the Soviet Union when, basically if you went to a shop, they would treat you like they were doing you a favor.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
And Britain is much closer to that than it is to America, where every-
- 42:42 – 47:22
Living online: criticism, lies, polarization, and why podcasts counter distortion
- KKKonstantin Kisin
And I think for people like us as well, who, who by virtue of what we do are digitally plugged in, like we have to kind of pay attention a little bit to what's going on. So I certainly spend a lot of time on my phone. When... You know, I remember k- a month or two ago there was some shit going on, people talking shit about, as always, about us on social media or in the papers, whatever. And then I just sit in my garden and I see these two giant trees that are, like, 300 years old.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
I'm like, "Who gives a fuck?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
You know? When you're there, you just go, "Who gives a fuck?" It, it's n- you know, we're all just-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's also the cost of what we do.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The cost of what we do is people are going to have opinions. You want them to have opinions.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Some of the opinions are gonna suck, and some of them are gonna be completely outrageous, and some are, are gonna be just outright lies where they just wanna take you down. That's okay.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah.
- FFFrancis Foster
It's, it's what-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
The, the lies piss me off. I, I'll be honest, the lies piss me off because I'm like, I am happy to be criticized for mistakes I make, I'm happy to be criticized for things that I said inarticulately, I'm happy to be criticized by people who don't like my worldview. But don't fucking lie about it. Don't make up bullshit about me-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right
- KKKonstantin Kisin
... and pr- and tell other people that that's what I am.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
That pisses me off.
- JRJoe Rogan
That, we should reject that from everyone, from both sides, and the problem is if it aligns with your ideology, you won't call it out and you accept it.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's fine. It's just like, you know, I always say that these parties that w- you know, un- unfortunately we only have two, are defined by the craziest members of those parties.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, when you think about the left, what do you think about? People that want trans women in sports, and communism, and an open border. And then when you think about the right, what do you think about? Like, Patriot Front and fucking r- r- you know, religious fundamentalists-
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm
- JRJoe Rogan
... that want the Bible in every school and, you know, xenophobic people that think this is a white Christian nation and that's it. [sighs] It's just so exhausting.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And if you spend enough time absorbing all of this online, it'll completely warp your worldview instead of just basing your worldview on how you interact with people in real life.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? And most people now are tainted by this, so even interacting with them in real life is a problem, especially if you don't catch them one on one.
- 47:22 – 1:07:15
Attack ads, immigration accusations, and power incentives in politics and institutions
- KKKonstantin Kisin
"And now the gloves are off." Man, it is crazy. Like, we were sitting in our Airbnb, uh, yesterday preparing for one of our interviews, watching something on YouTube, but because we weren't logged in with our own account, you get YouTube ads.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
And w- right now as we're recording this, it's the midterms coming up, and the political attack ads, have you seen this shit?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, I've seen a lot of them in America.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Bro, it is u- if you show that to a person who's not used to it, like, it is shocking to me. It's like, "Ken Paxton loves pedophiles." I'm like, "Whoa."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Right, right, right.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
That, that's, and, and, and the other way, too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
"James Tallarico wants to take your daughter and rape her and then trans her." You're like, "Whoa." It, it seems, like imagine-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's nuts
- KKKonstantin Kisin
... imagine talking about people like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right. And, and-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Imagine you came on here and you were just like, "The Republicans wanna trans your kids, and the Demo- or the Democrats wanna..."
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- KKKonstantin Kisin
No, that would be crazy.
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- KKKonstantin Kisin
The Democrats wanna trans your-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mate, well, listen, give it another 30 years.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Right. [laughs]
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
It, it could completely-
- FFFrancis Foster
It could flip
- JRJoe Rogan
... swing.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
When the Republicans are transing your kids, that's when you know you're really are fucked.
- 1:07:15 – 1:13:57
Fame and child stars: why early adoration and money can derail development
- JRJoe Rogan
They, they all get fucked up. Like, I've become friends with Zac Efron lately. Uh, he's been coming to the club. Very nice guy, but talks openly about it. Like, just, like, becoming famous when you're young, when, like, you're really young, you're a kid, is just so fucked up for you. I ca- I liken it to when you make cement and you don't put all the ingredients in, and then it kind of forms, but you can never fix it, so it's never fully formed.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think this is an issue with ... I've met a lot of child actors that became adults, and every one of them was fucked up. Um, Macaulay Culkin was probably the least fucked up, oddly, but he'll, he talks openly about the struggles that he's had.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
And what is it that makes somebody really struggle with life, having been famous as a kid? Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
You get adored for no reason, right? You're, you're six and everybody loves you. You're supposed to earn that, right? You're supposed to have it from your family, and then the way you behave is supposed to dictate how people treat you in the real world.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the, what you're good at. So, like, maybe if you're good at art or you're good at music, people are like, "Jimmy, I love how you play guitar." And then, so then people like you for that, and then you're like, you want more of that, so you work really hard. And then you go through this whole process of becoming an adult, and dating, and girls don't like you just 'cause you're on the cover of Teen Beat. They like you because, hopefully they think you're attractive looking, and then they think you're funny, or you're smart, or you're nice to them. And then you go on a date, and you guys jive, and it's a learning process.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you don't go through that at all when you're a nine-year-old and you're on the set of a television show that's in your name, and then everyone around you is catering to you. Everyone's kissing your ass. "Tommy, can we get you anything? Would you like a juice? Would you like anything?" Like, everybody loves you. Nobody is telling you you have to do something, "You have to do this. You have to do that." Nobody's punishing you. Nobody's, nobody's, like, bullying you at school. It's like your world is weird.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
And people tolerate your shitty behavior, I imagine.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] 100%. You could throw temper tantrums, and fucking smash windows, and they... I mean, that's why rock stars fucking tear apart ho- hotel rooms. Why do they do that? 'Cause they can.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
They go into that hotel room and just fucking throw a TV through the window. "Whoo, rock and roll!"
- KKKonstantin Kisin
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, it's in, it's in all these movies, right?
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why do they do that? Because they're out of their fucking minds, and because they, there's no guardrails. And to, to have no guardrails as you're growing up, and to also be completely wealthy by the time you're 10, you know? And then usually, the parents are involved in some sort of a shitty scenario.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, I have a friend who's, uh, who was a child actor, and his parents stole money from him, and he didn't find out until he was an adult. Like, millions of dollars from him.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm.
- FFFrancis Foster
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he's had, like, this fucked up relationship with them anyway.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
That's gotta be horrible.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then he found out that they were, they were mishandling his money, and stealing from him.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
That, that's gotta be so horrible.
- JRJoe Rogan
He suspected it, though. He was like, "Oh, yeah. What? I don't..."
- KKKonstantin Kisin
It's one of the things-
- JRJoe Rogan
"How did you do this?"
- KKKonstantin Kisin
... that happens when people see you being successful, and you have money, or they think you have money. Suddenly, like, all these people emerge out of everywhere who've got, like, these amazing ideas-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah
- 1:13:57 – 1:29:04
Ancient mysteries and empire stories: Egypt, calendars, invented gods, and conquerors
- FFFrancis Foster
I mean, we-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Well, it's been, like, 6,000 years, right, since, oh, the, the ancient Egypt is 6,000 years ago?
- JRJoe Rogan
At least.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
At least.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's a lot of real weird stuff when it comes to that. Real weird. You know, um, there's also the, the actual kings list, or the, the Zep Tepi kings list in, in Egypt that ... It's super weird, 'cause it goes back 30-plus thousand years, and they wanna talk about that as if it's myth. And then it gets to a certain age where it's agreed upon that this is the, the time in which these dynasties existed, that people accept. And so it is very, it's very weird stuff. And you, I think you have to really understand hieroglyphs to be able to even comment on it, so I'm not going to. But one of the weird things about it is the ages of the older people. The people from 30-plus thousand years ago, they're, like, living t- 200,000 years, 50,000 years. It's very odd. They reign for a long time, and that aligns with the Sumerian kings list too, which is also super fucking strange. The Sumerian kings list has the same sort of properties, where you have accepted historical figures that are later, that live a normal lifespan.
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But then when you go way, way back, you have kings that are ruling for 35,000 years. Very weird.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Isn't it the same in the Bible, where it's all, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm
- KKKonstantin Kisin
... way extended, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yep
- KKKonstantin Kisin
... so, so is, is that maybe just a, like, a language thing, or, like, a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure
- KKKonstantin Kisin
... calculation thing?
- JRJoe Rogan
It's probably a bunch of things, right? The, the real problem is you have, uh, cuneiform, right? So you have the ancient Sumerian writing. So there's not, like, a language issue then, because you have them detailing the ages of the people that are historically accurate, where we know that they existed. The real problem is, like, what were they talking ... Like, in the Bible, like, when Noah was 600 years old. Well, okay, what is a year to you? Like, what does that mean?
- FFFrancis Foster
Right.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it every, is every season a year? Is it a- an actual calendar year? Do you have a Gregorian calendar? Like, what do you, what are you using?
- FFFrancis Foster
Mm-hmm.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause they used to use a different calendar entirely in ancient history. Used to use a 13 lunar cycle calendar. So it was a 13-month calendar. It was a 28-day calendar, which is 364 days, so they would have to have a leap year every now and then. But when you think about that, that actually kinda makes more sense.
- FFFrancis Foster
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause that really does align with the cycles. But somewhere along the line, they decided to make it 12 months, and some months are 31 days, and some months are 28 days. Like, what? Like, what, what happened here? Like, what-
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
So it's like, what do you mean when you say he's 600 years old? You know, did you just mean he's old as fuck? You see Noah-
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
... like, that dude's, like, a fucking million years old. Like, you like, "How old's my dad?" "My dad's 150,000 years old."
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- KKKonstantin Kisin
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
"And, and he fucking hates this." You know? Like, you know what I mean?
- 1:29:04 – 1:55:41
Iran war anxieties, the Strait of Hormuz “trap,” and modern drone-driven warfare
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm a little concerned, um, about what might happen post midterm, and one of the rumblings that I'm hearing post, is after the midterms, the United States might start attacking Iran again. I don't know if this is true or if this is just speculation, but good Lord, I hope it's not true. So I don't know what it is, but I'm really concerned, because this whole I- Iran thing is like we're at war, but no one talks about it anymore. It's been this, like, stagnated thing in the media. And what is going on with the Strait of Hormuz? Like, boats are getting through, but they have to be u- ushered. You know, they have to be guided by battleships and shit, and, like, are they fighting off people all the time? I, I hear they are. I hear people are trying to attack these battleships all the time. It's like, what, what happens after the midterms? 'Cause right now, if they did it right now, they'd get crushed in the midterms.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And there's a lot of speculation they're already gonna lose the midterms.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So if that ha- if they're waiting until after that's over before they do this, things could get real ugly.
- FFFrancis Foster
Well-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
You know, you got... Sorry, go ahead.
- FFFrancis Foster
I, I was gonna say, well, you s- you say that. I take that and I raise what's happened in the UK. Uh, w- our defense minister came out in, when he was, ch- ch- a speech, I can't remember what the exact context or where the speech was being, uh, held, but he was talking about how we need to start, how British people need to start stockpiling.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
He did say through let's, he said three days worth of whatever, but it, it kinda makes sense because our infrastructure's very vulnerable, uh, and we haven't built a lot of the shit that we should be, should have been building 'cause we're very green and all of this other stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
But isn't three days the modern version of two weeks to stop the spread?
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Right. Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know what I mean?
- KKKonstantin Kisin
And, uh, Joe, before we do Iran, can I have a piss?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's, we'll pause. We'll pause.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
We'll be right back, ladies and gentlemen.
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] Um, so where were we?
- KKKonstantin Kisin
We were on Iran.
- JRJoe Rogan
We were talking about Iran.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Are we back on air now or not?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, we're back on air.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Okay, cool, cool, cool. Let me just do this.
- FFFrancis Foster
Here you go, Matt. Do you want to do that?
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Uh, I've already... I'm doing the triangle of things.
- FFFrancis Foster
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nothing like three white guys talking about geopolitics.
- 1:55:41 – 2:06:25
Domestic fallout: ICE tactics, trust in democracy, revolution fantasies, and communism warnings
- JRJoe Rogan
Because even the ICE stuff- Look, most people in this country don't like the idea of a militarized police force with no identification just pulling people over. It opens up a world of problems. It op- it sets terrible precedents, and this is what people that are pro-ICE don't seem to understand. They could use that in another way. Now we've set a precedent. You're allowed to have a militarized police force with masks on, and they don't have any identification, and they're snatching up people, and some of them happen to be American citizens. Like, if you're supporting this, you're like, "You gotta crack a few eggs to make an omelet." Okay, well, you just opened up the fucking henhouse, and now the chickens are running all over the place. Like, you could do whatever you want now. If, if you're allowing that, and that's normalized in society, that's not good.
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But on the s- at the same point, you do have a bunch of very dangerous criminals, the Sinaloa people. There's a lot of-
- FFFrancis Foster
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... different gangs that have gotten in, and they're setting up illegal activities, and kidnappings, and all kinds of shit, cartel violence inside American borders. That's real, too. So like, support of ICE to go after that is pretty strong.
- FFFrancis Foster
But it's also, as well, what it does to your democratic process.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- FFFrancis Foster
'Cause one of t- people... Part of Trump's appeal, as we all know, is that he marketed h- himself as the outsider. "I'm not part of the political system."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FFFrancis Foster
"You're gonna get a radically different presidency with me. I'm not gonna be the other ones." And one of the promises was... Here you go, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I got one over here.
- FFFrancis Foster
They-
- JRJoe Rogan
I've got one.
- FFFrancis Foster
Uh, one of the promises was, like, "No forever wars."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FFFrancis Foster
"We're not gonna go around. We're not gonna do these wars. I'm gonna put America first. It's gonna prioritize American people because we've got real issues in this country that we need to sort out."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FFFrancis Foster
And the problem is, when you do Iran, what you say to people is, "It's just more of the same."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- FFFrancis Foster
"It doesn't matter who you vote for, you're still gonna get these types of wars." And so what happens is that people then feel more and more disenfranchised, that they're not connected, that it doesn't matter who they vote for. You're undermining democracy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm, yeah.
- FFFrancis Foster
And that's a really dangerous place to be because once people feel that democracy doesn't resent re- doesn't represent them, then they start disengaging. And again, it goes back to that argument about vacuums. That power vacuum still needs to be filled, and then you have people going, "Well, what we actually need is a king" or, "What we really need is to do our own thing."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FFFrancis Foster
And that's how the fractures appear within society.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you got those weird kids today that think we should burn it all down and start from scratch.
- FFFrancis Foster
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
It's like, okay, show me your plan. [laughs] What's, what's your fucking plan? What's your burn it all down, like, long-range strategy?
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Well, that's why I always... Uh, look, I'm not a h- historian, but it's, it's something I've always thought about. I think calling the American Revolution a-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- KKKonstantin Kisin
... a revolution is, uh, in- inaccurate, and that leads to a lot of confusion 'cause it wasn't a revolution. To me, a revolution is when you overthrow the existing regime in your country, right? The Russian Revolution.
- 2:06:25 – 2:25:18
AI, universal income, and the search for meaning: adapting education, purpose, and ambition
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, well, the, if you ask the AI people, it's gonna get super weird, um, because the universal high income thing that you, that you hear Elon talk about, th- that would be that every citizen of the United States would have a stake in artificial intelligence, and that you would get, just like if you live in Alaska, you get money from the oil companies.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You get a check. People, maybe people don't know this, but if you live in Alaska, you just, you get a check. And, uh-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
When? When you're born? Or-
- JRJoe Rogan
No, you get, like-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Just e- every, every month
- JRJoe Rogan
... yeah, you get a, you get an income.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's find out how many people in Alaska get it and what's the parameters. Um, you know, if you live on Native American reservations-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm-hmm
- JRJoe Rogan
... like, they get checks.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
If you're Native American, you know, you can get a check. If you're a part of a tribe that has a casino, you know-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... you get a piece of the casino. And this is kind of what's going on with the United States when it comes to the consequences of AI and taking over automation, taking over jobs, taking over shipping, ca- taking over commercial truck driving. Uh, you already see it all over to Austin. You see these, uh, Waymos and cyber cabs. It's kind of nuts. I mean, I see as many of them sometimes as I do regular cars. They're, it's really nuts how many Waymos you see. Um, so those jobs are gone. They're, they're taking jobs, and this is just the- Beginning of the storm. These are the first raindrops of the storm that is the consequences of AI completely taking over every aspect of society, which it'll probably do, and do much better than what humans do. Then this becomes a problem of your identity. Like, how, who- do you think of yourself as a person who works and you, are you proud of that? Is that, that who you are? You know, you're, you're proud to be useful and you're s- you know, you get great satisfaction out of your occupation. If all of a sudden your occupation is automated and you don't exist anymore, massive amounts of depression, massive amounts of drug addiction, and then you just give them a check, I don't know if that's gonna be enough.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Well, to your point about Native American reservations, from what I understand, the kind of social outcomes of that are not great.
- JRJoe Rogan
So here it is, uh, no, not... Well, the Native American one's particularly bleak-
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... but we can get into that. Alaska pays eligible residents an annual dividend called the Permanent Fund Dividend. For 2026, it's $1,200 per eligible person, including a $200 el- uh, energy relief payment. So it's 1,400 bucks a year. That's not much.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Not much.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, but it's a little something. Per, what's that, Jay? Oh, per eligible person. Includes the 200. It's only 1,200. Oh, oh, sorry. Includes a 200, including a $200 energy relief payment, so it's just 1,200 bucks.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, so if there's two people in your household that are eligible, like two... Well, how many, uh, how old do you have to be to be eligible? Who receives it? Um, do you have to, is it a certain age? Is there an age requirement, or is it all citizens, or is it, like, voting citizens? Either way, um, it's not enough.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, now the, the real question is when you're dealing with AI and this infinite amount of wealth it's gonna generate, how much is enough? You know, when, when Elon says universal high income, what are we talking about here? Like, what i- what does that mean? Are you, are you saying you're gonna give everybody $500,000 a year? I'm not, I'm on board.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, so then what happens?
- KKKonstantin Kisin
Are you, Joe? This, 'cause this is the flip side of this conversation, which is, you mentioned the Native American situation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KKKonstantin Kisin
It's like, you know yourself. You take a lot of meaning from the things that you do.
Episode duration: 2:38:15
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Transcript of episode a2K-AHeZ3o0
