JRE MMA Show #10 with Tyron Woodley

1. 0:00 – 1:25

   Post-surgery update: stem cells, PRP, and an aggressive rehab timeline

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      Doo, doo, doo. And we're live. We're live with the champ. We're live. We're live with the champ.

   2. TWTyron Woodley0:09

      We out of this bitch.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      What's up, man? How are you?

   4. TWTyron Woodley0:10

      I'm chilling, man. How you doing, brother?

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      You look better than anybody I've ever seen just a couple weeks out of shoulder surgery.

   6. TWTyron Woodley0:15

      I'm a savage, man.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Like, you're walking around like there's nothing going on.

   8. TWTyron Woodley0:18

      They took my savage stem cells out of my own damn back, and they threw them in my shoulder.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      Out of your back?

   10. TWTyron Woodley0:23

       The hip bone, where the fuck... The word bone marrow, they got in there, centrifuge spun them, shot them into my shoulder.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       Hmm.

   12. TWTyron Woodley0:30

       And shit. I should have a sling on, but I'm out Tuesday anyway, so I kind of prematurely decided to come out of the sling.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       Oh, so you're supposed to be out of the sling in six days?

   14. TWTyron Woodley0:39

       Yeah, some... No, no. Is that six days?

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       Five days?

   16. TWTyron Woodley0:41

       Whatever Tuesday is.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       Five days. Today's Thursday.

   18. TWTyron Woodley0:43

       Yeah, five days.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Yeah.

   20. TWTyron Woodley0:44

       Four or five days, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Wow. So you said, "Fuck it."

   22. TWTyron Woodley0:45

       So my guys were really aggressive. I went to Dr. Andrews. He's out there in Pensacola. And he said, "No, we need you back punching in two months." So the day after surgery-

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       Two months?

   24. TWTyron Woodley0:54

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       Hard?

   26. TWTyron Woodley0:54

       Day after surgery, he said making contact. So two month... I mean, right after surgery, I was doing two-a-days, fucking full-ass rehab.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       Really?

   28. TWTyron Woodley1:04

       Yeah, like crazy. So I'm like, these dudes is nuts. This shoulder, I had this done in '08. I didn't move for three weeks.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       What'd you have done with that one?

   30. TWTyron Woodley1:12

       Same thing, labrum.
2. 1:25 – 5:48

   The ARP Wave machine: how it works, why it’s expensive, and what it’s supposed to do

   1. TWTyron Woodley1:25

      So it felt weird to throw hooks and it felt weird to use my jab a lot, and my shoulder would fatigue a lot. So I didn't tell a lot of people that, so I just started bombing like hell with my right hand. It wasn't because I was just so right-hand heavy. So now that I had the surgery on this one, I'm going to stem cell both shoulders, rehab the crap out of it, and also bought this, um, little rehab machine called an ARP Wave. You ever heard of it? Like a Russian stim, it's like nuts.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:50

      No, what is it?

   3. TWTyron Woodley1:51

      It's like a Russian stim machine that has the ability to make your muscles contract 500 times a second at its highest setting. So a lot of people use it. The coach use it. A lot of pro athletes use it. The people that made it in Minnesota, they don't give a lot of information because they don't want their intellectual property stolen, but they charge you like 12 to 14 grand for the machine. Then they charge you five grand to show you how to use it. Then if you really, really want to know how to use it, they charge you guys another 500... I mean, uh, five grand. So I was lucky enough... I hope they ain't watching this yet.

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:22

      (laughs)

   5. TWTyron Woodley2:22

      I was lucky enough to get one from my homie, Mark Clayton, that used to play with the Rams. I just bought his from him.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:27

      And so what is it called again?

   7. TWTyron Woodley2:29

      It's called an ARP Wave.

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:30

      Art wave?

   9. TWTyron Woodley2:31

      ARP, A-R-P.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:32

       A-R-P Wave.

   11. TWTyron Woodley2:32

       It's... I think that stands for Advanced Recovery Program.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       See if you can find that thing.

   13. TWTyron Woodley2:35

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:36

       Wow.

   15. TWTyron Woodley2:36

       Advanced Recovery Program. So basically, if you think about scar tissue, soft tissue, it has the ability... It's not like that stim that feels like the needle poking.

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:44

       Mm-hmm.

   17. TWTyron Woodley2:44

       But it's like intense stim that goes through, it can break that fucking scar tissue up, um, go through soft tissue and basically increase blood flow, range of motion. So sprained ankles, you know, in one session, that shit'll be healed.

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:56

       Really?

   19. TWTyron Woodley2:56

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:57

       Wow.

   21. TWTyron Woodley2:57

       I've used it hundreds and hundreds of times. I just didn't have the money to buy it until recently.

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:02

       Wow.

   23. TWTyron Woodley3:02

       Yeah, I've been using it since college.

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:04

       And so now you put this on your shoulder and w- what...

   25. TWTyron Woodley3:07

       Well, you put it on your shoulder and they have like this posture. So you hold this posture, this position, right? Um, and then they also do a balance test first because if your back is fucked up, your knee, and your balance is off, then neurologically, it's not going to actually send, um, the current to the right spot. So they... Maybe it's your lower back and your shoes are fucked up. So now your shoes are messed up, so it make your lower back hurt. You know how the balance test go, don't it?

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:29

       Right.

   27. TWTyron Woodley3:30

       So they do that first, adjust you, make sure you all balanced out. Then they find what they call a hotspot. So they put it at a neutral site, the black pad, which is like your lower back or something. Then wherever you're feeling the pain... If I'm feeling it right here, the pain might not be coming from there. So they might... They search around and ooh, this shit jump out. So now this becomes a hotspot. So now they take the other pad off and find the spot that when those two connect, you feel like you're about to die. Then they wrap you up and then they do seven minutes on reverse, seven minutes on positive. And then it's painful as shit, but I've done training camps, had some severe injuries, and nobody would have ever known.

   28. JRJoe Rogan4:09

       Really?

   29. TWTyron Woodley4:09

       Yeah, it's crazy.

   30. JRJoe Rogan4:11

       So you're saying that if you have something that's bothering you, a lot of times there's something that's wrong somewhere else...
3. 5:48 – 7:33

   How the Maia fight injured his shoulder—and how he adjusted mid-fight

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:48

      So in the Demian Maia fight, you hurt your shoulder with one of the first punches you threw, right?

   2. TWTyron Woodley5:54

      Oh, my gosh. I was... I knew it happened because... I knew, I knew it's what they call a subplex or dislocate or whatever. So I threw... I saw an opening. I had already lumped his eye up. I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to try to fuck that side of his face up." So I saw his left eyeball already almost closed. So I said, "I finna try to go ham on him." Pow, I threw the punch. (cracking sound) And I felt my shoulder go down. And I'm like, "Oh, shit." So then I was like, "I can't lose a fight. I can't let the dude take my belt." So at this point I said, "I'm gonna throw straight punches." And reaction, and I see my power of punch, I'm gonna throw it. So a couple times, I forgot and I threw it and it kind of went out again. And he took some shots and I lift him up and it kind of went out again. So three or four times in the fight, I can feel it just go like, like a, like a whole, like five or six light bulbs just crushing on your shoulder.

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:39

      Ooh.

   4. TWTyron Woodley6:40

      You kind of feel it going... But I had that pain before and I'm, and I'm, I mean, it sounds stupid. I'm blessed that I tore this one because I know what it felt like.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:47

      Right.

   6. TWTyron Woodley6:48

      And I know that the only pain that I'm gonna feel is when I extend, when I try to go that direction or any overhand right, that shit was gonna be a wrap. So when I stayed here, I just threw straight punches, and there was a couple times I blitzed it forward and I wanted to punch and I didn't punch because I didn't feel confident with, uh, with my hand.

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:06

      Hmm. So you had, you kinda, you knew something was wrong.

   8. TWTyron Woodley7:10

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:10

      You just didn't know exactly what it was.

   10. TWTyron Woodley7:11

       I knew, I knew, I knew it was subplex, so I knew it dislocated for sure. Whether the ligament was torn or not, I was praying that it wasn't. 'Cause you can actually do that-

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:19

       Mm-hmm.

   12. TWTyron Woodley7:19

       ... slip it out without it tearing. But most times when you do that, it's a result of these muscles fatiguing, you punching too hard, making contact with your target, and then your whole muscle just go... It just kind of felt like... The best way I can explain it, everything just kind of fell down.

4. 7:33 – 13:04

   Deciding on surgery: MRIs, second opinions, and career considerations

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:33

      So you tried to rehab it for a while, right?

   2. TWTyron Woodley7:35

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:35

      You tried to, what did you try to do?

   4. TWTyron Woodley7:36

      I mean, I did, I did the ARP treatment. Um, I did regular physical therapy. Um, I mean-

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:41

      You got an MRI?

   6. TWTyron Woodley7:42

      MRI. I got two MRIs. I had one doctor tell me that, you know, I didn't have to do it, I could. One doctor couldn't care less. Um, and then finally I went to Dr. Andrews and he was like, "You know what? How long are you planning on fighting for?" And, uh, and I hate when people ask me that shit (laughs) 'cause I'm like-

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:56

      Right.

   8. TWTyron Woodley7:57

      ... I'm like, "Until I get tired of fighting." And he was like, "Well, if you think you're gonna be done fighting, then don't get it done. But if you want to have a career and you wanna be able to confidently punch..." He said, "I watched your video." He said, "You make your money with your right hand." He said, "If you want to go out there and punch and be confident, let me go in there, let me clean it out, let me anchor it down. Uh, we're gonna shoot some stem cells, some PRP in there on the way out of the surgery. Uh, we'll be aggressive. We'll make sure you get that range of motion and, um, you'll be back in there punching." So, I decided that my ass fought four times, four World Title fights in a year. If anybody deserved to touch up something they hurt in a fight, it's me. So, uh, I decided to go with it. I was so close, man. Even all the way up until the day of surgery, I was like, "Man, I don't wanna fucking do this. I don't wanna do this." I just didn't wanna be down.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:40

      Now, up until the day of surgery, now were you still training? Were you still throwing punches?

   10. TWTyron Woodley8:44

       I was still fucking training, yeah. I was training. Um-

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:45

       And what did it feel like when you were throwing punches?

   12. TWTyron Woodley8:47

       Um, I mean, that's the reason why I got it. I mean, uppercuts, straight punches, as long as I... If, if I throw a straight punch and I didn't turn my body over and I was just arm punching-

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:54

       Mm-hmm.

   14. TWTyron Woodley8:54

       ... shit would hurt. If I throw uppercut, didn't hurt. Uh, I was shadow boxing, hitting pads, hitting the bag. If I throw a overhand right, it was not feeling, it was not gonna happen, so.

   15. JRJoe Rogan9:04

       Shoulders are such a weird joint, you know?

   16. TWTyron Woodley9:06

       Yeah, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan9:06

       There's so much motion.

   18. TWTyron Woodley9:08

       Even now, like, doing the rehab now, like, part of my protocol is with dumbbells. I can, I can slight shadow box. But if I come out here, I mean, you can just see, you can see the way my body's starting to get alarmed.

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:18

       Mm-hmm.

   20. TWTyron Woodley9:18

       I don't feel comfortable yet.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:20

       But you're only how many days out of surgery?

   22. TWTyron Woodley9:22

       Two weeks.

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:22

       Two weeks is nothing.

   24. TWTyron Woodley9:23

       Yeah, nothing. Yeah, I'll be fine.

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:24

       Yeah, it's amazing that you can move it that much.

   26. TWTyron Woodley9:25

       I'll be back, I'll be back training, um, in a couple months.

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:29

       Wow.

   28. TWTyron Woodley9:29

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:30

       Well, with this ARP machine and then with stem cells and PRP-

   30. TWTyron Woodley9:34

       Yeah.
5. 13:04 – 14:44

   Life logistics and media work: Fox analyst role, TMZ, and experimenting with standup

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:04

      Now, are you... You're living in St. Louis?

   2. TWTyron Woodley13:06

      Yeah, I live... I got a house in St. Louis. I'm out here every week though. I'm doing FOX, TMZ. Uh, acting, coaching.

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:11

      I didn't know you were doing that many different TV things.

   4. TWTyron Woodley13:13

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:13

      So, what are you doing on FOX?

   6. TWTyron Woodley13:15

      I do... I'm doing UFC Tonight.

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:17

      Right.

   8. TWTyron Woodley13:17

      Um, D- DC is out in training camp, so anytime DC, Bisping, or whatever, I'm usually the guy that fills in, well, on UFC Tonight. Um-

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:23

      And you have to come out here and do that every week? Wow.

   10. TWTyron Woodley13:26

       If they don't watch themselves... Hey, Bisping, you and, you and DC don't watch yourselves, I'm gonna snag your damn job.

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:31

       (laughs)

   12. TWTyron Woodley13:32

       I'm gonna be a permanent out here because I had a good show yesterday.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:35

       (laughs)

   14. TWTyron Woodley13:36

       You might wanna watch out. (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:37

       Do you like doing it?

   16. TWTyron Woodley13:38

       I love doing it. I love getting out of the box. That's why, you know, I know we're probably gonna get into it later, that's why I did standup comedy the other day. I did standup comedy-

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:45

       I heard about that.

   18. TWTyron Woodley13:46

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:46

       Adam Hunter had you up at the Dime Bar.

   20. TWTyron Woodley13:47

       Yeah, I went to the Dime Bar because I feel like acting is what I'm gonna do after I get done fighting. And if you can be okay with being embarrassed, not being uncomfortable, and really not giving a fuck, then you can become a great actor if you have the gift and you're willing to put in the work. So, I've always put in the work. I'm not worried about that. But if I gotta cry, I gotta be a college douchebag, I gotta be s- you know-

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:09

       (laughs)

   22. TWTyron Woodley14:09

       ... something that I'm not used to being, I can be a tough guy all day. I can be a secret agent, you know? I mean, you've done film.

   23. JRJoe Rogan14:15

       Right.

   24. TWTyron Woodley14:15

       It's, you know... We can watch a film and mimic it. You know, for... I used to mimic Friday. You could not tell me I wasn't Smokey. I would sound just like Chris Tucker, like I was really in the fucking movie. But he didn't have anybody to look at. He had a fucking script and he had to bring that to life. And, you know, we're really critical on actors, and I just don't wanna be the weakest link ever on a film, so ............................

   25. JRJoe Rogan14:36

       So that's what you wanna do when you're done with all this?

   26. TWTyron Woodley14:38

       For sure, for sure.

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:39

       Did you... Has that always been an aspiration?

   28. TWTyron Woodley14:41

       Um-

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:41

       Or is it something you saw as, like, a way to do it after it's over?

6. 14:44 – 20:02

   “I don’t like fighting”—what he means: politics, promotion, and disrespect in modern MMA

   1. TWTyron Woodley14:44

      I mean, I got a lot of stuff. You know, I don't really even like fighting-

   2. JRJoe Rogan14:48

      Really?

   3. TWTyron Woodley14:48

      ... to be honest. Yeah, I'm just good at it.

   4. JRJoe Rogan14:50

      What don't you like about it?

   5. TWTyron Woodley14:51

      I don't like the politics behind it. I don't like the, um, martial art aspect that's been taken away from it. I don't like the, um, disrespect to the sport. Um, guys that are not, not really training hard. Um, they don't look the part. I think professional athletes should look a certain way. Um, I really just don't like the youth, um, this, this generation of fighters that watch a move on TV, on YouTube, and they go and they try to do it. They don't wanna drill repetitiously. They don't wanna actually put in the work. Um-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:17

      Uh, but why does that affect you though? Because-

   7. TWTyron Woodley15:19

      It affects me because our sport is also the fans, and the fans actually culture who gets to fight. And if a guy's gonna talk enough shit and start wearing fly suits, then this day and age, that's good enough for a title shot. And I think that's disrespectful to everybody that came before that... Remember the... You had to go 10 and 0, then you get the fucking call from the UFC?

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:37

      Mm-hmm.

   9. TWTyron Woodley15:39

      If Conor won... Artem Lobov in the UFC had a .500 record, he's gonna be in the UFC. And I just... (clears throat) It's, it's ways that the sport has taken the love out of it, but I just find a way in dominating my opponents, taking all their tools away from them. You know, Dean, Thomas, shout out to them, and Duke Roufus are fucking masterminds. So, I take pride in that, take pride in going in there, not getting hit, um, dominating, knocking people out, whatever, whatever the case.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:06

       Yeah, but when you say you don't like fighting, you like all those things.

   11. TWTyron Woodley16:09

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:09

       You don't like the, what other people are doing.

   13. TWTyron Woodley16:11

       I love training. I don't like what... I don't like the, what the sport has become.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:15

       So, th- this is an interesting thing to talk about because a lot of people have different points of view on that. On one hand, a lot of people like the traditional martial arts approach of respect for your opponent and just fighting to the best of your abilities and letting the chips fall where they may. Whereas other people say, "Well, listen, to get people to show up, to get asses in seats, to get pay-per-view buys, there's gotta be some drama and some entertainment value to it." And that's where someone like Conor comes into play.

   15. TWTyron Woodley16:41

       Conor's the only one that's done it, though.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       Yeah. Well, Ronda a little bit.

   17. TWTyron Woodley16:44

       Ronda did it a little bit. Conor's done it the best.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:47

       Mm-hmm.

   19. TWTyron Woodley16:47

       But he actually puts in the work.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       Right.

   21. TWTyron Woodley16:49

       He actually-

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       Chael Sonnen before him.

   23. TWTyron Woodley16:50

       Chael Sonnen did, but he didn't... He, he, his mouth, his mouth was louder. He's actually-

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:55

       Yes.

   25. TWTyron Woodley16:55

       ... probably the best at it. He's, he's probably... He's better than Conor at it. Conor's very close, but Conor actually delivers on more than, more of what he said he's gonna do than Chael did.

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       I would agree with that. Yeah.

   27. TWTyron Woodley17:05

       So if you gotta think of anybody who's brought both worlds together best, I would have to say Conor. He knocks a lot of guys out, he's tried to call the round. Um, he's only lost a few fights total. And even those fights, it was risk and reward. Fighting a guy, switched opponent, this and the notice, different weight class. Um, you know, he's, he's taking those risk and rewards that if you lose, it's not really that big of a deal. You know, nobody's gonna really, "Oh, my God," dropping down to the bottom of the pack. But these other guys that haven't done it, don't have the skills, ain't putting in the work, I mean, they can kind of really just-

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       Well, you see the trend, right? There is a trend right now of people being-

   29. TWTyron Woodley17:39

       Be good at it at least though.

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:40

       ... incredibly disrespectful-
7. 20:02 – 25:41

   Respect, stardom, and Woodley’s “chip on the shoulder” debate with Rogan

   1. JRJoe Rogan20:02

      When you... Why, why are you saying you don't get the respect? From who?

   2. TWTyron Woodley20:05

      You know, it's-

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:05

      From him? From Colby?

   4. TWTyron Woodley20:06

      I, I don't... Oh my God, I can care less what-

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:08

      Wait, what are you... But what are you saying you don't get the respect?

   6. TWTyron Woodley20:10

      I'm just saying that-

   7. JRJoe Rogan20:10

      You definitely get respect.

   8. TWTyron Woodley20:11

      Watch this. When you think of Robbie Lawler-

   9. JRJoe Rogan20:14

      Okay.

   10. TWTyron Woodley20:15

       ... Carlos Condit, right?

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:17

       Right.

   12. TWTyron Woodley20:17

       They're in a different category. Now, is it weird to you that I'm the champion-

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:20

       A different-

   14. TWTyron Woodley20:20

       ... and I beat both of those guys?

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:21

       Wait a minute, what do you mean by a different category?

   16. TWTyron Woodley20:23

       I th- I see them in a category... And this might just be me.

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:26

       Okay.

   18. TWTyron Woodley20:26

       I see them as in the category as if you're talking about guys that are gonna enter the Hall of Fame, right? And you think about all... Josh Koscheck and, um, uh, Carlos Condit and Robbie Lawler and, you know, this guy and Anderson Silva da... All those different guys. But it's funny that I've defeated these guys-

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:44

       Wait a minute, you're crazy. You're talking crazy.

   20. TWTyron Woodley20:47

       I don't think so.

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:47

       Yeah. No, you're definitely talking crazy. You're the champ. You're the current champ.

   22. TWTyron Woodley20:50

       I know that.

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:50

       You, you're acting like people don't respect you as the champ.

   24. TWTyron Woodley20:54

       They respect, they respect the people I've defeated more.

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:56

       And you think that people think like that Carlos Condit gets more respect or Robbie Lawler-

   26. TWTyron Woodley21:00

       They do.

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:00

       ... gets more... That's crazy.

   28. TWTyron Woodley21:01

       Carlos Condit gets more respect than me. Robbie Lawler gets more respect than me.

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:05

       But from who, though?

   30. TWTyron Woodley21:05

       For sure. Even guys, even guys that I defeated, like, you know, um, Stephen Thompson.
8. 25:41 – 39:32

   Style and tactics: defending the Wonderboy and Maia fight approaches

   1. JRJoe Rogan25:41

      But don't you think that you're in an unusual situation? First of all, because you win the title by spectacular first round knockout against Robbie Lawler, right?

   2. TWTyron Woodley25:49

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan25:49

      Unbelievable knockout. But then you have the most awkward and difficult guy to defend your title against.

   4. TWTyron Woodley25:56

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan25:56

      I mean, Wonderboy Thompson is a v- very unusual opponent and it's hard to look good against him. And outta all the people that fought him, you're the only guy that put him in danger, not once, but twice. And the way you fought him, I've defended the way you fought him many times.

   6. TWTyron Woodley26:11

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan26:11

      'Cause look, if you look at tactically, if you look at technique and you look at the a- the, the art of fighting, that's the way to fight him.

   8. TWTyron Woodley26:19

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan26:20

      If you're a guy like Tyron Woodley, a powerful puncher who's a great wrestler, who's got one... Real one-punch knockout ability, you're not gonna open yourself up to Wonderboy and get-

   10. TWTyron Woodley26:29

       You're not gonna rush him either.

   11. JRJoe Rogan26:30

       P... Exactly.

   12. TWTyron Woodley26:30

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan26:31

       Don't get picked apart. You're not gonna fight him the way he wants to fight. What you did is you laid back a lot and people booed a lot because of that. But when you connected, you were the one that hurt him.

   14. TWTyron Woodley26:41

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:41

       In those two fights, he was the one that was in big trouble, in both of those fights.

   16. TWTyron Woodley26:46

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:46

       Not you.

   18. TWTyron Woodley26:47

       It was ju... Well, his fight was... It was, it was not... For me, I'm never, um... You know, I got the same thing in the Maia fight, but at the end of the day, if someone's attempted to take you down multiple times, over 20 times, it's very hard to get in any type of exchange. Every time you swing, they wanna go in and get you-

   19. JRJoe Rogan27:02

       Yeah.

   20. TWTyron Woodley27:02

       ... shot taken down.

   21. JRJoe Rogan27:02

       Well, the Maia fight was tough too-

   22. TWTyron Woodley27:04

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan27:04

       ... because of your injury. But you gotta go back and look at, like, Anderson Silva's dark days. There was, uh, dark days when Anderson Silva fought Damian Maia, where nobody wanted to have anything to do with him after that fight.

   24. TWTyron Woodley27:13

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan27:14

       And Anderson Silva fought, um... When he fought... Uh, there was, there was this... It was several fights where, um, he had just boring results.

   26. TWTyron Woodley27:24

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan27:24

       And people weren't interested in him fighting anymore. One spectacular knockout and everybody's back on board again.

   28. TWTyron Woodley27:30

       Oh, yeah. Well, people-

   29. JRJoe Rogan27:30

       And then-

   30. TWTyron Woodley27:31

       One, one spectacular knockout to get the belt, and then everybody slowly forget about it moments later. 'Cause at the time, Stephen Thompson said, "No, I'd rather fight Robbie and I think he's gonna win anyway." And dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
9. 39:32 – 59:19

   Money, leverage, and UFC messaging: why post-fight narratives matter

   1. TWTyron Woodley39:32

      Do I think that the people wanna see me lose? No, I don't think they wanna see me lose. Do I think that sometimes I'm a pain in the ass? Yeah, I am. But in business, at one point in any business, there's not... The person that's doing the business not want their best interest. So if I'm an athlete and I'm looking out for my best interest and I'm trying to put myself in a position where, you know, I can fight, become a legend, become a Hall of Famer, I should do that. If I wanna be paid appropriately, I should do that. In our sport, because of you- the way the UFC started, we the damn UFC, you do what we say, and that's it. No questions. You fight who we wanna fight, you get paid what we wanna get paid, and that's it. And then what happened? The specialists, the one-trick ponies stop. Then collision athletes start getting in there, college wrestlers. You know, Kenny Florian's the goddamn, um, he was almost thinking about being a doctor at one point. So now you got intelligent people coming into the sport, they just so happen to be businessmen, entrepreneurs. So now I'm looking at market value. I'm seeing what these motherfuckers are making, and guess what? I should be making this if they're making that. If I'm the champion and this person's doing this, I should do that. Knowing what everybody's making, knowing all the numbers, I wanna be at least fair. I don't ask for no crazy, I don't ask for no 15 million and all that other stuff. So if me doing that makes me become difficult, then I guess I'm just a little bit difficult.

   2. JRJoe Rogan40:54

      Okay, but let me, let me look at it from their perspective. What they, uh, look at in terms of what a- an athlete is worth is like how much are they bringing in? Like what kind of pay-per-view buys are you getting?

   3. TWTyron Woodley41:05

      How much was Jo- How much-

   4. JRJoe Rogan41:05

      But this is what I think.

   5. TWTyron Woodley41:06

      ... how much was George bringing in when he first started fighting?

   6. JRJoe Rogan41:08

      Well, t- he wasn't making nearly as much money back then.

   7. TWTyron Woodley41:11

      But how much was he... Everybody has to start a certain way. You can't-

   8. JRJoe Rogan41:14

      But that's-

   9. TWTyron Woodley41:14

      ... you can't throw you out and say, "Okay, fight Wonderboy," um, "UFC blah, blah, blah." And if you don't do five, "Oh, well, you did 300 bu- 300,000 buys. You're not a draw." Okay, how was I promoted as a champion? How was-

   10. JRJoe Rogan41:29

       Okay, this is a long circuitous sort of a conversation if we continue along this way, but what I'm trying to say is there- there is a ma-

   11. TWTyron Woodley41:35

       I don't know if you can show me that fancy word.

   12. JRJoe Rogan41:36

       There's a way-

   13. TWTyron Woodley41:36

       It's a $15 word.

   14. JRJoe Rogan41:37

       ... it's like a circular sort of a thing.

   15. TWTyron Woodley41:39

       All right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan41:39

       You gotta keep circling back around to it. What I think is there's a way for... If- if you wanna make a big super fight, like if Georges St-Pierre really wanted to make a big super fight and the UFC wanted to make a big super star out of you, that's the fight. Because one of two things happens. Either he beats-

   17. TWTyron Woodley41:55

       I'm with you my man.

   18. JRJoe Rogan41:55

       ... you and he's even bigger than ever.

   19. TWTyron Woodley41:56

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan41:57

       Or you beat him and you become bigger than ever.

   21. TWTyron Woodley41:59

       Let's do it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan42:00

       That's what I'm saying. But-

   23. TWTyron Woodley42:01

       It's another fight that makes sense.

   24. JRJoe Rogan42:02

       But that's- that's- that makes sense. No one's trying to stop that from happening. What- when the UFC is not willing to pay a certain amount of money, it's because they don't think they're gonna get a certain amount of money. It's not because they're trying to avoid getting paid. If they thought that you could be some enormous superstar and they could make Conor McGregor ki- type money from you, there's not... They would never say, "Uh, we don't wanna do that 'cause we don't wanna give Tyron power."

   25. TWTyron Woodley42:25

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan42:25

       They don't think like that.

   27. TWTyron Woodley42:26

       No.

   28. JRJoe Rogan42:26

       They- they think like-... there are numbers people. They're trying to make pay-per-view buys. And if you only sold 300,000 pay-per-view buys because of the Wonderboy fight, there's not much they can do about that. I mean, it's not whether or not you were promoted a certain way as a fighter. It's like, that fight, for someone like me, is fascinating. But for the average fucking Johnny Lunchbox, I wanna see blood cut, type person, that's not... It's very tactical.

   29. TWTyron Woodley42:50

       But the pay-per-view is about the, the pay-per-view is about before the fight takes place.

   30. JRJoe Rogan42:55

       Right.
10. 59:19 – 1:05:26

    Scoring and judging: damage vs volume, rule confusion, and the ‘wasted guillotine’ story

    1. TWTyron Woodley59:19

       But yeah, you know, but that would make sense because I'm used to Robbie coming off and getting those 30-second bursts. Like, I don't know exactly... You know, I talked to Big John about this for a while about the judging, right? And, you know, damage being landed.

    2. JRJoe Rogan59:32

       Yeah.

    3. TWTyron Woodley59:33

       So some of those fights, where even if Robbie wasn't the more active one, he's damaging people more 'cause he punch harder and is a lot-

    4. JRJoe Rogan59:39

       Right.

    5. TWTyron Woodley59:39

       ... more aggressive. But how can Carlos Condit control the fact that he just don't punch as hard as Robbie?

    6. JRJoe Rogan59:45

       Right.

    7. TWTyron Woodley59:45

       You know, should he be penalized? Did you think he beat, um, Robbie in that fight?

    8. JRJoe Rogan59:48

       I'd have to go back and watch that again. I thought it was a very, very close fight.

    9. TWTyron Woodley59:50

       At the time, at, at the time, did you think it?

    10. JRJoe Rogan59:52

        I don't think I did. I thought I th- I think I thought that Hendricks did, or, uh, that, uh, Robbie did just enough to win.

    11. TWTyron Woodley59:59

        What about-

    12. JRJoe Rogan59:59

        But I'd have to go back and I'd have to go back and watch it again.

    13. TWTyron Woodley1:00:01

        See, I th- I thought at that moment that Carlos won, but I wasn't like, "Oh my God, I can't believe they gave this to Robbie." But what was going-

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:07

        It was extremely close.

    15. TWTyron Woodley1:00:08

        It was really close.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:09

        You can make an argument for either guy winning, I think.

    17. TWTyron Woodley1:00:11

        Yeah. But Robbie, because he landed the more significant-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

        Harder punches.

    19. TWTyron Woodley1:00:14

        ... hard, harder punches and it looked-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:00:15

        Right.

    21. TWTyron Woodley1:00:15

        ... scarier.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:00:16

        Right.

    23. TWTyron Woodley1:00:16

        I think that's why he got the nod.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:00:17

        That means something, though.

    25. TWTyron Woodley1:00:18

        Yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

        I mean, uh, if someone hits harder and has more damage, that damage should be accumulated. I mean, that should be, uh-

    27. TWTyron Woodley1:00:25

        So someone, so someone-

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:00:25

        ... added up.

    29. TWTyron Woodley1:00:26

        So if someone throws punches and it looks like it's affecting the person more, even if the other person throw more and land more, than the person that's landing the damaging punches you think should win?

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:00:34

        I think damage should count for more than punches that don't damage. So like, if one person hits you-

Episode duration: 1:34:33