JRE MMA Show #101 with Kevin Holland & Travis Lutter

Joe is joined by Kevin Holland, a mixed martial artist competing in the UFC middleweight division and his head coach, Travis Lutter, retired mixed martial artist who won The Ultimate Fighter 4. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joe RoganhostKevin HollandguestTravis LutterguestGuest (likely brief interjection from in-room person)guest

Jun 27, 20242h 57mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,036 words

0:14 – 2:23
Training through injuries: why coaches must keep rolling
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Okay, we're rolling. (phone chimes) Kevin, what's up?
2. KHKevin Holland
  What's up, Joe?
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Was that your phone?
4. TLTravis Lutter
  Yep, I'm not sure. Um-
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Travis Sluiter.
6. TLTravis Lutter
  Sorry.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
8. TLTravis Lutter
  (laughs)
9. KHKevin Holland
  (laughs)
10. JRJoe Rogan
  So, uh, first of all, welcome. Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it.
11. KHKevin Holland
  No, thank you.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  And it's good to see you again, man. I haven't seen you in forever.
13. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah, man. It's been a- it's been a few years.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Try to keep this, like, uh-
15. TLTravis Lutter
  Sorry.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  ... like a fist from your face.
17. KHKevin Holland
  A fist from my face, huh? Well.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
19. KHKevin Holland
  Well...
20. JRJoe Rogan
  We were talking right before about, uh, injuries. You know, it's like, I always like to talk to guys who have been doing Jiu-Jitsu a long time 'cause they always have this laundry list-
21. KHKevin Holland
  (laughs)
22. JRJoe Rogan
  ... of injuries. And you were talking about neck fusions and disc issues.
23. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  And, you know?
25. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, I'm just like everybody else. We get... You know, everybody gets injured, we all get old. Uh, it just takes time, and- and... But, you know, my opinion is, if I'm gonna teach Jiu-Jitsu, I- I have to stay doing the art.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
27. TLTravis Lutter
  I think that, um, when people just teach and they don't train, they- they, you know, it's like a... It's a perishable.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
29. TLTravis Lutter
  You know, it's like your skills are perishable, and then it's also your thoughts. It's like, yeah, you know, it's like, "Oh, uh, wha- if we just..." That's when you start seeing bullshit Jiu-Jitsu.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
2:23 – 3:53
Kevin Holland’s martial-arts roots: Kenpo + Kung Fu Sun Soo
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Kevin, when you started training, did you start right away with- with Travis or did you start somewhere else?
2. KHKevin Holland
  Like Jiu-Jitsu?
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
4. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah, I never did Jiu-Jitsu with anybody else but Travis.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Did you do martial arts before?
6. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah, I was a Kung Fu blackbelt when I got there. I started-
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, that's right, 'cause you call yourself a Kung Fu fighter when you entered into the Octagon.
8. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah, everybody's Kung Fu fighting. (laughs)
9. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
10. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah. Yeah.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  What kind of Kung Fu was it?
12. KHKevin Holland
  Uh, so it was actually a mix. It was a mix between, uh, Hawaiian Kenpo... No, my bad. American Kenpo and, uh, Kung Fu Sun Soo. So, Kung Fu Sun Soo was originated in the States from Jimmy H. Woo bringing it over, and then Kenpo just has a thousand different stories so couldn't really keep up with that. So I was always more fascinated with the Kung Fu Sun Soo aspect of it, so I actually went to Bill Lasseter's studio out in Rancho Cucamonga, California, and took a couple classes there. So I was just mainly focused on the Kung Fu aspect of it. Sun Soo was always funner than the forms that we did for Kenpo.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  I'm trying to remember what Sun Soo is. What is the- what's the fundamental difference between Sun Soo and other kinds of Kung Fu?
14. KHKevin Holland
  Uh, so probably the other differences, I probably couldn't tell you, but it's more, uh, I guess you could say it's more, more common, you know? And so it's more like... It's more brutal, you know? We're not doing a- a bunch of pretty things.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Tai Chi type thing, you mean?
16. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah, yeah. Nothing wrong with Tai Chi, but we're not doing a bunch of breathing techniques and stuff like that. It's more so like, uh, bash you over the head with this stick, bash you over the head with my fists, you know? Just, it's a mean Kung Fu style, you know?
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
18. KHKevin Holland
  And- and it worked well for me, especially in high school. It was my type of thing, you know?
3:53 – 9:23
Oblique kicks, underrated fighters, and why UFC depth is different
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Do- you don't see a lot of... There's a lot of Kung Fu techniques that I think probably would work in the Octa- Like, here's one that you see now that you didn't used to see before and people thought was kinda bullshit, is that oblique kick.
2. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Like the oblique kick is super legit.
4. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Especially to the legs, but do you ever see Lorenz Larkin use it?
6. KHKevin Holland
  He did it to me.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Dude!
8. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah, he sends it to the leg and then he'll send it to, like, the chest area.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  To the body, yeah.
10. KHKevin Holland
  And it's- it's like, it- it throws you back. It's really vicious.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  He did it to Neil Magny and I was like-
12. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  ... "Goddamn, that's like a fucking sidekick."
14. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, the way he throws it.
16. KHKevin Holland
  And he throw- he throws it pretty quick, too.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
18. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah, and it's... And they... It's kinda hard to see it coming, too, 'cause it's not really telegraphed. You don't know if he's throwing push kick, he's coming with the...
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
20. KHKevin Holland
  You don't know if he's gonna question mark. It's a- it's a- it's a sexy kick.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  It's legit.
22. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, and it wasn't- it wasn't around for a long time.
24. KHKevin Holland
  No.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  I think... I ki- I wanna say that the Wink- Winkeljohn's influence.
26. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  And with, like, Jon Jones. Like, those guys were, like, one of the first guys to start throwing that kick hard to the legs.
28. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah, Jon was, uh, stepping on the legs and keeping good distance with it, you know?
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
30. KHKevin Holland
  I never really seen Jon throw it to the body, you know?
9:23 – 14:42
Longevity outliers and the problem with grappling rule sets
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes. Yeah. There's, there's no way around it. You know, one other thing I was gonna say, Jean Jacques Machado doesn't have any injuries.
2. TLTravis Lutter
  No. Jean Jacques looks good, you know.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  It's crazy. I asked him. He had, like, a little problem with his knee, little... "I got a little meniscus tear." But he, he got some cortisone shot in it and it's fine.
4. KHKevin Holland
  (laughs)
5. JRJoe Rogan
  No, no back problems, no nothing.
6. TLTravis Lutter
  The, the difference with him is, is that, uh, you know, it's like there- there's somebody that trained all the time.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
8. TLTravis Lutter
  You know, it's like... And is always in really, really good shape, you know?
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Yep.
10. TLTravis Lutter
  It's like back when he was winning Abu Dhabi and stuff like that, I remember talking to him. You know, it's like he's going in there and he's killing, you know, he's just trying to kill his cardio, killing his cardio, k- killing his cardio. You know, it's like he submitted his way through, uh, ADCC, and what-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Yep.
12. TLTravis Lutter
  ... was it 1999? Uh, and then in 2000-
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, it was around then.
14. TLTravis Lutter
  And then in 2000, he lost in the finals to, uh, Renzo, uh, on decision, uh, I think, uh, um, and then he lost to-
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Matt Serra.
16. TLTravis Lutter
  ... Matt Serra, but that was a weird one. That was a weird one. It's like, oh, you know, so that was the first match of the tournament and Matt went out there and pulled guard on him, right, like right, jump guard. And then they fought, like, 90... So in the first five minutes back then, uh, and I don't know what the s- rules are in ADCC now, is you could pull guard and it wasn't penalized.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Right, you didn't lose any points. Yeah.
18. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah, you didn't lose any points that year. And, um, and then, so then, but then after the five minutes, if you pull guard. So they ended up on their feet with, like, 20 seconds left and Jean Jacques pulled guard. And, and that, that's how Matt won.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
20. TLTravis Lutter
  It's like it was a 0-0 match until Jean Jacques pulled guard with that, you know, 20 seconds left, and he didn't have time to do anything after that.
21. KHKevin Holland
  Oh, it's the jiu-jitsu rules.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, there's a lot of wacky rules.
23. KHKevin Holland
  They're crazy.
24. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah. I don't love the ADCC rules, you know? It's like-
25. JRJoe Rogan
  No, I don't either. No.
26. TLTravis Lutter
  It makes it really, really boring to watch.
27. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, I think what's really interesting with what's going on with like, uh, a lot of these guys that are trying, like the Gordon Ryan situation where he's trying to have these no time limit matches with people, like submission only.
29. KHKevin Holland
  It's boring.
30. TLTravis Lutter
  Right.
14:42 – 15:42
EBI overtime, streaming matches, and what makes jiu-jitsu entertaining
1. JRJoe Rogan
  How do you feel about the EBI rules?
2. TLTravis Lutter
  I don't love the EBI rules. You know, it's like, I think, I think, uh, I think-
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Whoa.
4. TLTravis Lutter
  ... Eddie got high as hell.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Whoa. Definitely.
6. TLTravis Lutter
  He got high as hell. (laughs)
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
8. TLTravis Lutter
  And, and, and decided, "Hey, I got a great idea. What we'll do is if" (laughs) "if we ... if this happens, then we're gonna do this." And it's like, um, I ... They're okay. It's like it-
9. JRJoe Rogan
  I like it.
10. KHKevin Holland
  It worked out for me.
11. TLTravis Lutter
  Eh, that's 'cause for, for his style, it's perfect. It's like, him in an EBI, it's really, really hard to beat Kevin, 'cause it's like, you're not gonna score on him, he's going to ... it's gonna go overtime, and then, you know, Kevin-
12. KHKevin Holland
  And you can stand out of bounds. I love that.
13. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah, it's like, you know-
14. KHKevin Holland
  That's perfect.
15. TLTravis Lutter
  ... Kevin, Kevin likes it a lot. So for me, not so much.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  It's just interesting to see, like, situations where maybe the person in, uh, a regular match never would get to your back, but now they're starting on your back with their hands locked in the seatbelt.
17. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
18. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah. You know? I mean, and it's, you know, for, for Kevin, that's great. You know, it's like, for, for older folk, probably not as good. (laughs)
19. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
20. KHKevin Holland
  (laughs)
21. TLTravis Lutter
  (laughs)
22. JRJoe Rogan
  For me, I love ... Stay away from my back. I don't want you back there.
23. KHKevin Holland
  (laughs)
15:42 – 20:30
11 years with Travis: Kevin’s first day, the crying story, and natural talent
1. JRJoe Rogan
  So, G- Kevin, how long you been training with Travis?
2. TLTravis Lutter
  11 years.
3. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  11 years. Wow.
5. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah. It's been a while. It's been a long time. (laughs)
6. JRJoe Rogan
  And when did you decide you wanted to fight MMA?
7. KHKevin Holland
  Uh, I wanted to do kickboxing when I got there. I was really a big fan of Kevin Ross, and then I got there and Travis was like, "As difficult as striking is, jujitsu's more complex." And then he went like this.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
9. TLTravis Lutter
  (laughs)
10. KHKevin Holland
  And I was like, "All right, bet."
11. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
12. KHKevin Holland
  I was like, "I'm gonna give it a shot," and then I cried the first day after practice.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Did you?
14. TLTravis Lutter
  No.
15. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah, I swear I did. I went home and I cried. I got ... Like, I didn't even get- make it home. I got in the car and I cried. My mom was like, "What's wrong?" And I was like, "I'm a black belt and these white belts are fucking me up."
16. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
17. TLTravis Lutter
  (laughs)
18. KHKevin Holland
  And so then the next day I was like, "All right, cool." I started fucking some white belts up, then there were some blue belts tapping me out, so then I cried again. And then so ...
19. JRJoe Rogan
  How old were you at the time?
20. KHKevin Holland
  I was 18 years old, crying like a little girl.
21. TLTravis Lutter
  (laughs)
22. JRJoe Rogan
  17, 18.
23. KHKevin Holland
  No, I was ... I was 17. I'm two up from 18.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, he's 17.
25. KHKevin Holland
  And then I was like ... And then all of a sudden, you know, and it's just ... I started tapping people out and I was like, "Oh, this is shit." I was like, "I can do this." You know?
26. TLTravis Lutter
  When Kevin came to the gym, you know, it's like y- i- it's like ... Jiu-jitsu's a great equalizer. It's like, nobody is good when they first joined, uh, f- first joined. Kevin was the exception. You know, it's like, Kevin comes in and he's a huge pain in the ass the first day. It's like, he could throw his body and he'd do stuff, and you'd do stuff to him once and then you d- couldn't do it to him again. And this is, you know, it's like, uh, where everybody's coming up to me going, "Hey, where'd, where'd he train before?" And I'm like, you know, "Uh, he says he didn't." You know? And it's like, "Well, I don't believe him." You know? It's like-
27. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
28. TLTravis Lutter
  ... everybody's, everybody's like, nobody believed him. And, and it's like, and then it's like, over time we figured out he was telling the truth. It- it's like, yeah, he'd done a little bit in the kung fu, but nothing to really ... He's just really, really talented. And, and it's just-
29. KHKevin Holland
  Okay.
30. TLTravis Lutter
  ... you know, it's like, there's not a lot of guys that you roll with where it's like, you know, that, that can do what Kevin can do. You know, it's, it's a ... This is a different human. You know, it's like, I've trained with Randy, I've trained with GSP, I've trained with, you know, a whole bunch of different guys that are really, really good. Kevin's different. You know, it's like, this is a different animal. It's like-
20:30 – 25:31
Workouts vs. fun: Kevin’s training personality, wrestling avoidance, and motivation
1. KHKevin Holland
  I don't like to work out, though. (laughs)
2. TLTravis Lutter
  And so, and that's-
3. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
4. TLTravis Lutter
  ... that- that's the crazy thing is, is that Kevin-
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, how often do you work out, though?
6. KHKevin Holland
  I work out a lot more now than I used to. But, you know, it's like, uh, when I first joined the gym I didn't, you know, it's like, I'd go roll because rolling was fun, and if you said we had some sparring, I'd go spar because sparring was fun. If we said we had wrestling, I wouldn't show up, because wrestling sucks.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
8. KHKevin Holland
  You know? And it's like, if the workout's hard, I don't want to do it. You know? If it's something that I can control, I'm completely down for it, you know. It's like, strength and conditioning? It's like, I love Suge, because some days I can get away with some things. You know, I offer him some free food and he's like, "All right, come on, we'll take all five minutes, let's go."
9. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
10. KHKevin Holland
  You know what I mean? But it's like, I hate hard workouts, you know? It's like, all those hard workouts and people are like, "Yeah, I love... I live for that." I'm like, "Uh, you're tripping, bro. What are you smoking? I'm smoking weed. I want to chill." You know? It's like-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  That's funny because you, you seem to be having fun inside the octagon. It's one of the interesting things about watching you fight.
12. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  You, you ha- you're having fun in there. It's very obvious. So, like, you're having fun in training as well.
14. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  And you're getting better while you're having fun. Of course, you're gonna get a lot of cardio out of just training, and training hard, and doing all those fun stuff.
16. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  But you don't like to do the supplemental stuff?
18. KHKevin Holland
  No, I don't like to do supplemental stuff. So swimming works out because we have a heated pool, and I love to swim.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
20. KHKevin Holland
  So I'll go in the heated pool and...
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, that's great cardio.
22. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah. I'll stay there all day, you know, I don't have a problem with that. But if the pool's not warm-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
24. KHKevin Holland
  ... I'm not going in there. You know? And if the workout's hard, I might do it on Monday, but then Tuesday, Wednesday come around, and I'm gonna have an excuse to where I can't make it to the gym. (laughs)
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Do you wonder if you're gonna reach your full potential with this mindset?
26. KHKevin Holland
  No. I don't really care.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  You don't care?
28. KHKevin Holland
  No. It's, it's-
29. TLTravis Lutter
  That's not true.
30. KHKevin Holland
  And, and-
25:31 – 28:52
The Jacaré knockout breakdown: power from the bottom and capoeira-style mechanics
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Coming off the Jacare fight, that was one of the craziest KOs I think I've ever seen.
2. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  I knew, I, I watched the fight again a couple days ago 'cause I knew that I was gonna see it again and I wanted to watch it one more time. The, uh, you heard him before the big punch.
4. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  You heard him with another punch-
6. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  ... before that, and they showed it in the replay. They showed the big punch that really ha- sent him back staggering off the back, but you had rocked him with a, a punch off your back just before that.
8. KHKevin Holland
  Uh-huh. Hammer fists.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Was it hammer fists?
10. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah. Those hammer fists off the back, I don't know why. It's like those hammer fists, when you're on your back, they hurt. You know, like you generate good power.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  But they're... Ooh, look at that. Yeah, that for sure. But even before that, if you go back before this, the, there's a, the hammer fists for sure h- stunned him, but even before the hammer fists, you hit him with one punch from... That's it right there.
12. KHKevin Holland
  Right there.
13. TLTravis Lutter
  That one?
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Right there, right there.
15. TLTravis Lutter
  But see-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Exactly. Like, uh, now you see him, how he's covering? And then you hit him with a hammer fist, the hammer fists definitely hurt him. Oh, yeah, he seems real wobbly. But I think it was really that first punch that-
17. KHKevin Holland
  So-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  ... sent him.
19. KHKevin Holland
  When I did my research on this, when I was just thinking about it, and I was thinking about it over and over again, like, "What the hell could possibly make this happen," right? (clears throat) And it's like two things. One, if you look at my l- if you look at my, uh, right leg right there-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
21. KHKevin Holland
  ... he holds that leg for dear life, right? He holds that leg like that leg makes a difference in the fight. Right? And I guess it does. Then he looks at it. Look how he looks at that leg as it whips around. Pow, and he gets smacked, right? So he's looking at the leg almost like the leg is gonna kick him. And so if you're thinking about the leg, you're not looking at the punch, so the punch is gonna hurt a little bit more.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm. Yeah.
23. KHKevin Holland
  And then everybody thinks I was on my back, but I was actually on one hand when I did it. You know?
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
25. KHKevin Holland
  So it's, it's kinda like Capoeira. You know what I mean?
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
27. TLTravis Lutter
  Mm-hmm.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
29. KHKevin Holland
  Uh, you play the video game and the guy's all, uh, Gi- Eddie. He's doing all that dancing and stuff like that-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
28:52 – 35:02
Belts, IBJJF politics, and why rank is both meaningful and messy
1. TLTravis Lutter
  You know, he got in, uh, IBJJF and him were in a little bit of a squabble.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, what is going on with that? Like...
3. TLTravis Lutter
  Uh, you know, well, he was inactive. He was-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
5. TLTravis Lutter
  ... inactive. He had never done his paperwork, you know? It, it's like is that bullshit? Yeah, it's a little bit bullshit, but he was also inactive in, uh, uh, from what I hear, he wasn't really training. You know? It's like, and it's like the way that rankings work is that y- yeah, it's like in order for me to be ranked up after black belt, I have to be training. Yeah, it's like or, or you know, it stagnates. Um, and I don't think that that's the actual real issue with it, IBJJF, is that he just didn't do his, uh, you know, his, his paperwork a long time ago. You know, Jean Jacques had that problem, you know, it's like when they first, uh, you know, years ago, it's like he, he couldn't, you know, they... If I remember right, they gave him like two stripes on his black belt, and this is just a couple years ago, and then, and then, uh, um, Rickson heard about it and ranked him up to, I think coral belt.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
7. TLTravis Lutter
  And it's like, uh, you know, and it was, you know, kind of a big deal, you know, it was-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Which coral? Coral's that black and red?
9. TLTravis Lutter
  That black and red belt.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
11. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
13. TLTravis Lutter
  So, so Rickson did that and it's like, you know, it's kind of a fuck you to, uh... I can say fuck you, right?
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
15. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah. Cool. Um, it's, uh-
16. KHKevin Holland
  (laughs)
17. TLTravis Lutter
  (laughs) That, uh, you know, to, uh, to the IBJJF, I think. You know, it's like a little s- family squabble, so...
18. JRJoe Rogan
  T- uh, yeah, the, the whole ranking thing is weird, right? 'Cause some guys can just decide that they're forming their own system and then, you know, like...
19. TLTravis Lutter
  Uh, it l- at the end of the day, it's like, you know, it's like, uh, you know, this goes back to Samurai times and there was no belts. You know?
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
21. TLTravis Lutter
  It's like and then, and then they started putting in, uh, I think the original belts were as white and, uh, white, black, blue. Uh, and that, and that, like e- even in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, it's like when it was given to the, you know, the, to the Gracies back in the day, I think that was the, the rank. Um, and, uh, H- Hoist had explained it to me 'cause it's like, uh, so the white belt was the beginner, a black belt was the, the, you know, the, you know, you'd be, you achieved the rank of bl- uh, black belt, you were the expert. And then the blue belt was the teacher. And so, um, um, Helio, um, right before he died, you know, the last few years, would, would train in a really, really dark blue belt. And it's like, you know, and, and it's like, so he'd go, uh, put the black belt on or the red belt on for the pictures and stuff like that, but when he was teaching, he would wear a blue belt. Um, and now Hoist, when he does his seminars, if you look really, really closely at his belt, it's, it's blue.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
23. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah, his, it's not black. He's, he's doing that, uh, uh, you know, to honor his dad and stuff like that, so...
24. JRJoe Rogan
  That's really interesting.People love belts, though. They love, you know, like, finding out that you've got the, that you've passed.
25. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  Right.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, you've reached the next level. It gives you a nice boost.
27. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  You feel good.
29. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  Yeah, I love belts.
30. TLTravis Lutter
  It's a perishable skill. You know, it's like everything's perishable. It's like, you know, it's like if y- if you don't go shoot, you know, it's like that skill's gonna go away. If you don't, if I don't train jujitsu, that skill's gonna go away, and it's like and, and it's striking, whatever it is, you don't drive your car, you're not gonna do as well with it. Uh, you know, it's like if you're a race car driver, you gotta practice, you know?
35:02 – 39:44
Eye damage in combat sports: pokes, retinal detachment, and Bisping’s lens
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Scary, scary human.
2. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  He can crack.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
4. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  He can crack and he keeps it too. That was the thing w- the, the Volkov fight, you know, I remember calling that fight because he was down in the fight, you know, and I remember it was like right before he knocked him out, we were talking about it, I said, "He can knock you out at any moment in the fight." Yeah. Even deep into the third round, Derek could still knock you out- Can Francis do that? ... and then all of a sudden boom. I don't know. We've never seen it. I don't know. He's never had to, had to do it. Yeah, we've never seen it. I don't know.
5. TLTravis Lutter
  He didn't do it against Stipe that first time. You know, it's like, uh-
6. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  Yeah, that would've been the answer, huh?
7. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah, that would've been, you know-
8. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  Yeah. It's just, you know, I don't know if Derek could do it against Stipe either, you know what I'm saying? It's like you, he's not there to hit. The way he moves, yeah. And he's, he's so experienced. He knows when to clinch with you, he knows when to get you down, he knows how to wear you out. So what Stipe was able to do though, which was pretty shocking, was absorb some of the bigger shots that Francis throws.
9. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah.
10. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  And he went with them and he rolled with some shots, and you know- So-
11. TLTravis Lutter
  How's his eye now?
12. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  I don't know, you know, I mean, it got better enough that he was willing to fight DC a second time.
13. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah.
14. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  How is it now? I don't know.
15. TLTravis Lutter
  Man, that's, that's something I, it's like, you know, you start losing eyes-
16. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  Mm-hmm.
17. TLTravis Lutter
  ... it's like this is, this is all fun, but-
18. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  Like Nick Lance just-
19. TLTravis Lutter
  ... I don't wanna lose my eye.
20. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  ... just retired because he said he lost 40% of his vision.
21. TLTravis Lutter
  No. No, thank you.
22. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  How does that happen? Yeah. Pokes.
23. TLTravis Lutter
  The pokes-
24. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  Pokes are a big one.
25. TLTravis Lutter
  ... and then also trauma-
26. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  Yep.
27. TLTravis Lutter
  ... 'cause boxers get it.
28. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  Mm-hmm.
29. TLTravis Lutter
  Boxers get it. You know, it's like you get hit and it's like it'll detach, you know, so it's like the maybe the centrifugal force, whatever, you know, it makes that eye pop and then it like, uh, then the retina detaches and, and then they have to go in there and do surgery and it's never right.
30. GPGuest (third-mic participant)
  Bisping only has one eye. Dude- That's pretty cool.
39:44 – 43:22
Texas freeze + COVID gym shutdowns: risk, policy, and public-health contradictions
1. TLTravis Lutter
  It's crazy. Crazy. 100-year storm, something like that.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  It ... If, if that. We were talking about it. Like there's no real record of anything that lasted that long, like that went through Austin and Houston and Dallas and-
3. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  ... froze everything up like that.
5. TLTravis Lutter
  Did you lose power?
6. JRJoe Rogan
  No, we got lucky.
7. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah?
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Didn't lose power. But, you know, fr- pipes froze up.
9. TLTravis Lutter
  Oh, your pipes froze?
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Yeah. Pipes froze up.
11. KHKevin Holland
  You know, it's so crazy. I was so mad. It's like the little hood apartment that I used to stay in-
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
13. KHKevin Holland
  ... never lost power.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
15. KHKevin Holland
  My uncle was good the whole time. I move into this nice new neighborhood, beautiful house, you know, and I, I lose power. My grandparents' house right around the corner, they lose power. I go back to the hood and everybody over there has power. I said, "I knew I shouldn't have moved."
16. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
17. KHKevin Holland
  I knew I shouldn't have moved. Knew it, man.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, it was a weird, random thing but, uh, thing, but millions of people lost power, which is, uh, just so strange that it lasted for so long and then, you know, a lot of tragedies too.
19. TLTravis Lutter
  Oh, yeah, there, there was that boy that the mom found him. Uh, they were from Honduras and they were living in a trailer and their trailer lost, uh, power and then, uh, um, and she found him under a bunch of blankets. You know, he was trying to keep warm and he froze to death.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, man.
21. TLTravis Lutter
  You know, it's like ... And I think there's 20 some people that I read that died in Texas, so terrible.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  (sighs)
23. TLTravis Lutter
  Bad deal.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Bad deal.
25. KHKevin Holland
  Sucks.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Um, what ... So, your gy- you were telling me your gym was only closed for a short amount of time.
27. TLTravis Lutter
  For, for during the pandemic.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  For COVID.
29. TLTravis Lutter
  Yeah.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
43:22 – 1:00:49
Supplements, meal prep, weight classes, and Kevin’s chaotic diet (peanut butter included)
1. TLTravis Lutter
  Like do you take supplements?
2. KHKevin Holland
  No.
3. TLTravis Lutter
  Nothing? (laughs)
4. KHKevin Holland
  UFC sent me some supplements to take and I tried it for a while, and I feel like I was getting more sleepy taking the supplements than I was just regular training and smoking weed.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Kevin's just a different animal.
6. KHKevin Holland
  I just stopped.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  That doesn't make any sense. Like what supplements are they sending you?
8. KHKevin Holland
  I don't know.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
10. KHKevin Holland
  Tranquilizers?
11. TLTravis Lutter
  (laughs)
12. KHKevin Holland
  They, they sent me a bunch of stuff.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Equally-
14. KHKevin Holland
  But if anybody asks, I do take Recover Me USA.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
16. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah, I take that all day every day.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
18. KHKevin Holland
  I swear I do.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Sure.
20. KHKevin Holland
  (laughs)
21. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
22. TLTravis Lutter
  Super, super believable.
23. KHKevin Holland
  (laughs)
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Hard sell.
25. KHKevin Holland
  (laughs)
26. TLTravis Lutter
  (laughs)
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, I don't know.
28. TLTravis Lutter
  So you don't take anything, just eat?
29. KHKevin Holland
  Yeah, just eat and train. Yeah.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)

Episode duration: 2:57:04

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Training through injuries: why coaches must keep rolling

Kevin Holland’s martial-arts roots: Kenpo + Kung Fu Sun Soo

Oblique kicks, underrated fighters, and why UFC depth is different

Longevity outliers and the problem with grappling rule sets

EBI overtime, streaming matches, and what makes jiu-jitsu entertaining

11 years with Travis: Kevin’s first day, the crying story, and natural talent

Workouts vs. fun: Kevin’s training personality, wrestling avoidance, and motivation

The Jacaré knockout breakdown: power from the bottom and capoeira-style mechanics

Belts, IBJJF politics, and why rank is both meaningful and messy

Eye damage in combat sports: pokes, retinal detachment, and Bisping’s lens

Texas freeze + COVID gym shutdowns: risk, policy, and public-health contradictions

Supplements, meal prep, weight classes, and Kevin’s chaotic diet (peanut butter included)

Get more out of YouTube videos.