JRE MMA Show #120 with Jim Miller

1. 0:00 – 0:12

   Intro

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. JMJim Miller0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

2. 0:12 – 0:42

   Jim Miller’s cookbook ambitions and why food matters to him

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Yeah, we're up. You got a cookbook? What's going on?

   2. JMJim Miller0:14

      Yeah, coming out with a, with a fucking cookbook.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Are you a good cook, legitimately?

   4. JMJim Miller0:18

      I try. (laughs) I, I, I think so.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      Like, I, I see you cook on Instagram. Looks like you're into it.

   6. JMJim Miller0:21

      Yeah. I am. Uh, yeah, uh, food has always been, uh, a pretty big part of my life. Uh, I grew up in a, a family of cooks. I, I actually consider myself probably the worst cook in my family. Um-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:33

      Don't say that before you sell your book.

   8. JMJim Miller0:34

      I know, I know. But like, I, I-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:36

      (laughs)

   10. JMJim Miller0:36

       ... I'm still pretty good. Like, both... My brother Dan and my, my other brother Michael are both... They're phenomenal. Uh-

3. 0:42 – 4:14

   Dan Miller’s infamous guillotine + why MMA ‘team’ and points formats feel weird

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:42

      Your brother Dan has the nastiest guillotine finish I've ever seen-

   2. JMJim Miller0:46

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:46

      ... in all my years of watching MMA.

   4. JMJim Miller0:48

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:48

      That one in the IFL where he had that dude pinned up against the cage. It looks like his head is gone.

   6. JMJim Miller0:53

      Yeah. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:53

      It looks like it's disappeared. Like his head is, it's, it's... Like, the way it bends over-

   8. JMJim Miller0:58

      Uh-huh.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:58

      ... it's like... Folks, it's like an elbow.

   10. JMJim Miller1:00

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Like, it's just-

   12. JMJim Miller1:00

       It doesn't make any sense.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       Doesn't make any sense.

   14. JMJim Miller1:02

       No, I didn't-

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:02

       And sideways.

   16. JMJim Miller1:03

       I didn't see that. I was on the... We were on the opposite side, uh, of the ring. I didn't see that until the next day. I was, like, scrolling through some pictures on, uh, on one of the forums, and I was like, "Holy shit."

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       Here, watch this. Here. Let's see. Look. Let's see if they can-

   18. JMJim Miller1:16

       Oh.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       Show it from the beginning again, please. Okay, here it is. I'll show it. Yeah, folds him in half. No, when he stands up. See, he's still fighting it off. Like right there, right there.

   20. JMJim Miller1:26

       Oh.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       What the fuck, man?

   22. JMJim Miller1:28

       It shouldn't work. Yeah, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       How is that possible? Look at that, look at that.

   24. JMJim Miller1:30

       N- Nope. It looks like it's disconnected.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       How is that... How is that possible that a neck can do that? He's literally hearing his own heartbeat.

   26. JMJim Miller1:38

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:38

       Right?

   28. JMJim Miller1:39

       I'd be dead.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:40

       I think that's, that's the craziest guillotine I've ever seen in my life-

   30. JMJim Miller1:44

       Yeah. Yeah.
4. 4:14 – 8:56

   The purity of fighting vs. clock-gaming, judging, and ref controversies

   1. JMJim Miller4:14

      Yeah. I, I, I guess there's, there's some, there's some silly stuff that happens in MMA, though. And you know-

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:20

      What's the, what's the silliest thing, you think?

   3. JMJim Miller4:21

      I don't... Y- Like, 'cause I mean, I fell in love with it watching, like, the early days. Watching Pride and, and the early days of the UFC where it was like y- ... Dudes were just going in there to beat the fuck out of whoever was across from them. And, you know, like, when I see a fighter, uh, try to game the clock, uh, you know, I, I, I understand why they're doing it, 'cause they wanna win, right? But, like, my whole goal was to not have the judges have any fucking say in it.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:52

      Mm.

   5. JMJim Miller4:53

      Uh, 'cause I got three schmucks. (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:55

      Questionable. (laughs)

   7. JMJim Miller4:56

      (laughs) Yeah. The, questionable would probably be a better word than calling them schmucks. Uh, on, on the outside of the, the cage, like, that have n- that have zero experience in the martial arts for the most part. A lot of them.

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:08

      A good percentage of them, unfortunately.

   9. JMJim Miller5:10

      Um, and, and yeah, they're, they're picking who's gonna win or lose.

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:13

       Yeah.

   11. JMJim Miller5:13

       And like, I get paid twice as much if they think that I win. Uh, so, like, I, I think that, you know, the, the purest part of the sport is when two fighters just trying to-

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:25

       For sure.

   13. JMJim Miller5:26

       ... beat the shit out of each other.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:27

       Undeniable.

   15. JMJim Miller5:27

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:28

       I mean, there's some really good judges out there. We should acknowledge that.

   17. JMJim Miller5:31

       Sure.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:31

       'Cause they don't get enough love because there's so many bad ones.

   19. JMJim Miller5:34

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:34

       You know, it's like, I feel like number one hardest job is fight. Number two is referee.

   21. JMJim Miller5:39

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:39

       N- number of referee is the hardest job.

   23. JMJim Miller5:41

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan5:41

       Like, 'cause they can step in too soon. The guy jumps up.

   25. JMJim Miller5:44

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan5:44

       What the fuck?

   27. JMJim Miller5:45

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan5:45

       The worst is when it's a submission.

   29. JMJim Miller5:47

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan5:47

       You know, like when, when someone is, like, fighting their way out of a submission and then the referee separates them.
5. 8:56 – 12:50

   How Jim stays durable: defense, style choices, and avoiding long-term decline

   1. JMJim Miller8:56

      I think y- I think fighting's easy. (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan8:59

      (laughs)

   3. JMJim Miller8:59

      (laughs) Ah, well, it's like... But you, it's amazing. If anybody saw you and you said, like, "This guy has some of the most fights in the history of the sport," like you, in the history of the UFC-

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:08

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JMJim Miller9:09

      Like, who fucking has more fights than you? Nobody.

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:11

      Nobody.

   7. JMJim Miller9:11

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan9:12

      Nobody.

   9. JMJim Miller9:12

      Yeah, nobody.

   10. JRJoe Rogan9:13

       You, how many fights do you have in the UFC?

   11. JMJim Miller9:15

       39.

   12. JRJoe Rogan9:16

       But what's crazy is you don't look fucked up, you don't talk fucked up.

   13. JMJim Miller9:21

       I try not to. (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan9:22

       You don't at all. Like, if I introduced you to someone and I said, "This young man has the most fights in the history of the, the most brutal combat sport in the world," they'd be like, "What?"

   15. JMJim Miller9:32

       Mm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan9:32

       "You?"

   17. JMJim Miller9:34

       Yeah. Uh, I, I think I found the thing that I was kinda built to do 'cause that's one of the things that, uh, people don't underst-... Like I, I've never had surgery, like knock on fucking wood.

   18. JRJoe Rogan9:45

       That's crazy.

   19. JMJim Miller9:46

       Uh-

   20. JRJoe Rogan9:46

       Nothing?

   21. JMJim Miller9:46

       ... like, yeah. Yeah, nope. Um, you know, uh, the only bone that I've ever broken is I chipped my, uh, my sinus when, uh, Dan Hooker kneed me. Uh, like chipped the outside of my sinus. That's the only bone I've ever broken.

   22. JRJoe Rogan10:00

       Really?

   23. JMJim Miller10:00

       Um, and I-

   24. JRJoe Rogan10:01

       And that just heals up on its own?

   25. JMJim Miller10:02

       Yeah, yeah. There was nothing they could do for it. But, uh, like... And I've been bounced around outside the octagon probably worse than I have been inside the octa- and it's like shit, man. Like, I was, I was just kinda like built to take lumps, I guess? (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan10:16

       (laughs)

   27. JMJim Miller10:16

       I've got a, I've got a fucking giant head for a 5'8" dude.

   28. JRJoe Rogan10:20

       (laughs)

   29. JMJim Miller10:21

       Uh, and I think that's helped me, you know, uh, absorb some shots. Uh, and then stylistically, I, yeah, I just, I try to, like... I, I do sacrifice some power for trying to be protected.

   30. JRJoe Rogan10:33

       Mm.
6. 12:50 – 16:16

   From lifelong wrestling to early MMA: minimal striking, fast pro schedule, and a wild hydration-test story

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:50

      So take me back to, like, what was your initial martial art? What was the first thing you ever did?

   2. JMJim Miller12:54

      Wrestling.

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:54

      Wrestling?

   4. JMJim Miller12:55

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:55

      And that was in high school or-

   6. JMJim Miller12:56

      Uh, that was as s- as soon as I could walk.

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:58

      Okay.

   8. JMJim Miller12:59

      Um, you know, uh, my, my mom's side of the family, uh, pretty, pretty fucking good, you know, wrestling, uh, locally. And then my, one of my uncles was a, uh, a two-time national champion for Lehigh. Uh, he was actually, uh, an Olympic qualifier in 1980 when we, uh, boycotted.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:19

      Oh, wow.

   10. JMJim Miller13:19

       Um, Mike Frick, yeah. Um, so like, his wrestling career was done before I was born, but, uh, his younger brother Jim, um, who's also my, my mom's younger brother, um, he wrestled at Lehigh as well. Uh, never quite made it to, uh, All-American status. Uh, one of my first memories is watching him wrestling at Lehigh, you know? I think I was like three or something like that. Uh, and I remember it 'cause he, he ended up breaking his ankle that, that match. (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:44

       Oh.

   12. JMJim Miller13:44

       But, uh, yeah. Like, uh, as, as soon as I could walk, I was pretty much on the mats. Uh, I, you know, I wish I would've been a better wrestler, but I was a, I was a late bloomer, uh, you know, physically and, uh, you know, in, in the sport of wrestling too, I think.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:58

       And then you go from there to jujitsu?

   14. JMJim Miller14:00

       Yeah. So I wrestled, uh, through high school, one year at Virginia Tech. Um, that was a, it was a learning experience, uh, you know, wrestling on a, a, for a D1, uh, program. Like, I walked on late, um, and (laughs) three weeks later was starting. Um, and, uh, wrestling at a weight class that I shou- probably shouldn't have been wrestling at too, 141s. Uh, and yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:27

       Too light or too-

   16. JMJim Miller14:28

       Too light. Yeah, way too light. Um, you know, we (laughs) ... They can't do anything about it now, but we snuck by the hydration test. (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:35

       Oh, boy.

   18. JMJim Miller14:36

       Yeah, I, I carried a cup of my coach's pee down to the trainer's office. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:40

       Oh, really?

   20. JMJim Miller14:40

       Yeah. Since I wa- I was, I was... I came on after all the hydration tests and all that stuff. So, uh, it was like, "Hey, uh, this'll work." (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:49

       Wow.

   22. JMJim Miller14:50

       So, um, you know, it, it... Like I said, it was an experience wrestling in a room full of, you know, multiple time state champs and stuff like that. And, and, uh, you know, it, it, it taught me a lot about kinda surrounding myself with people that support me, 'cause I didn't quite have that in the coaching staff. Um, and, uh, yeah, I wrestled for a year. Was pissed off 'cause I didn't like, you know, the program and, and, uh, came back. Was, was working a little bit, and my brother and I and Dan were, were messing around at work, working with our father and, and finally decided to start training jujitsu. And, um, we walked into the f- the first gym that we trained at in May of 2005. Um, came in, we had been like fucking around, so we ended up like submitting some guys in the first day. And, and, uh, we told the coach like, "Hey," like, "we wanna fight." And he's like, "All right, give me like two or three years." And, uh, six months later we were, (laughs) we were st- stepping into the, into a ring for our first professional fight, 'cause there was no amateur at the time. Uh-

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:52

       No striking training?

   24. JMJim Miller15:54

       Uh, f- literally three months of striking training at a, at a cardio kickboxing class. (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:57

       So at that place that you were telling me about, Planet Jujitsu?

   26. JMJim Miller16:00

       Yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah. It was a, it was, it was a trip, you know? Rolled, rolled the dice a little bit. Um, you know, at the... Yeah, then it was just like fight after fight. I mean, in, in a year I had six fights basically, so...

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:14

       Wow.

   28. JMJim Miller16:15

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:15

       Well, that's the way to do it, right?

7. 16:16 – 21:04

   Local MMA’s dark side: exclusivity contracts, limited cards, and ticket quotas

   1. JMJim Miller16:16

      Y- that's... I, I, I believe so. Uh, I think that's one of the biggest issues with like local MMA right now is that they're making these fighters sign agreements, so you're kinda locked in and then, and then it's-

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:28

      How so?

   3. JMJim Miller16:29

      Well, they're making, they're making fighters like, like local promotions, local shows are making fighters fight exclusively for them.

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:35

      Oh, that's terrible.

   5. JMJim Miller16:36

      And then they're only putting on, you know, three cards a year.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:39

      That's fucking terrible. They're doing that?

   7. JMJim Miller16:41

      Yeah, yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:42

      Oh, don't do that, guys.

   9. JMJim Miller16:43

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       Don't sign that. Don't sign that. Whoever you, whoever's listening, amateur fighters-

   11. JMJim Miller16:48

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:48

       ... guys coming up, don't sign that. That will fuck you.

   13. JMJim Miller16:51

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       Those guys, that's unethical.

   15. JMJim Miller16:53

       It is.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       They sh- they should not do that.

   17. JMJim Miller16:54

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:55

       Because if y- you know, like, look, if you have a good promotion and you pay well and you put on a good show, people will fight for you.

   19. JMJim Miller17:00

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:00

       But if you wanna say that a guy has to be exclusive on a small card-

   21. JMJim Miller17:04

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       ... and then he gets a call from one FC-

   23. JMJim Miller17:06

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       ... or fucking Bellator or whoever-

   25. JMJim Miller17:09

       A lot of them, a lot of them have like those, you know, the UFC clause where like if one of the big promotions call you. But the, the problem is, is like-

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:15

       You should be able to fight for a bunch of small organizations.

   27. JMJim Miller17:18

       Yeah, exactly. It-

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:18

       You wanna fight almost once a month. You could.

   29. JMJim Miller17:19

       Exactly, yeah. Ex- th- that's exactly it, you know? Like, I have some guys that train with me, uh, that they don't get to fight as often as I feel they should. Now, they're, they're t-

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:29

       Because of that. Because of these contracts.
8. 21:04 – 24:06

   Fighter pay models: why win bonuses are broken and finish incentives work

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:04

      It re- really... Like, if you wanna say you're gonna guaran- well, guarantee you $1,000 to fight and $1,000 to win, which I think is bullshit, by the way.

   2. JMJim Miller21:13

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:14

      I, I don't like win bonuses.

   4. JMJim Miller21:15

      I agree. (laughs) Yeah, me too.

   5. JRJoe Rogan21:16

      I fucking hate it.

   6. JMJim Miller21:17

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan21:17

      Especially with bad judging. I fucking hate it.

   8. JMJim Miller21:19

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan21:19

      When I see a controversial judgment and, you know, and one guy... Like, uh, here's a good one. It's not necessarily controversial, but really close. Some people think it's controversial. Uh, Barberena and Matt Brown last weekend.

   10. JMJim Miller21:31

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan21:31

       Right? Fucking real close fight.

   12. JMJim Miller21:33

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan21:33

       The idea that Matt Brown is gonna get paid half as much...

   14. JMJim Miller21:37

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan21:37

       ... you know? And one judge thought he won and two judges thought he didn't, and he's gonna get half the money.

   16. JMJim Miller21:42

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan21:42

       Fuck that.

   18. JMJim Miller21:43

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan21:43

       That's crazy.

   20. JMJim Miller21:44

       Yeah. It's a-

   21. JRJoe Rogan21:45

       I d- I don't like that.

   22. JMJim Miller21:46

       It, it's a, it's a weird, uh, it's a weird model. It really... Like, I, I like... So the, uh, that London card, it's like everybody with a finish got a, you know, got a 50-

   23. JRJoe Rogan21:57

       That's a good idea.

   24. JMJim Miller21:58

       That's a fucking great idea.

   25. JRJoe Rogan21:59

       That's a great idea.

   26. JMJim Miller22:00

       If you tell the fighters that before the, before the fight, guaran-fucking-teed everybody's going out there looking for a finish.

   27. JRJoe Rogan22:08

       Right.

   28. JMJim Miller22:08

       You know? Uh, and that's what I wanna see. Like, that's what, that's what I'm trying to do in the fight, n- you know, no matter what. But, like, as a fan, I, I wanna see, I wanna see aggressive fighters, not guys that are just trying to, you know, game the clock, win a couple points, and, and, uh, you know, get the W because they, they... Granted, they used effective octo- octagon control, but like-

   29. JRJoe Rogan22:33

       Right.

   30. JMJim Miller22:34

       ... uh, I wanna s- I wanna see finishes. (laughs)
9. 24:06 – 26:49

   Early gyms and key fights: Frankie Edgar, Gray Maynard, and Jim’s approach to film study

   1. JRJoe Rogan24:06

      Um, it's, uh... It's unfortunate. That's, that's very unfortunate. So you start off, um, you do a little bit... Where'd you start off with jiu-jitsu?

   2. JMJim Miller24:16

      Uh, that place, uh-

   3. JRJoe Rogan24:17

      Same place playing jiu-jitsu?

   4. JMJim Miller24:18

      Yeah, yeah. It was like, nogi-

   5. JRJoe Rogan24:19

      So cardio kickboxing.

   6. JMJim Miller24:20

      Cardio kickboxing, like, nogi, uh, nogi jiu-jitsu, tiny little room.

   7. JRJoe Rogan24:25

      Did they have any fighters yet?

   8. JMJim Miller24:26

      Well, they... That's why we went there, uh, 'cause they had a couple of, a couple of fighters. It was the closest place that had, uh, uh, like, an MMA team, uh, at the time. Um, and, uh, so I signed to fight Frankie Edgar, uh, in November of 2006. And the gym was kinda like-... it was (stutters) breathing its last breaths, you know. Like, people at- people at the gym kinda knew it was gonna go under. Uh, and it, and it did, like, three weeks before the fight.

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:56

      Oh, no.

   10. JMJim Miller24:56

       Uh, so it was like... It was, uh, a shitshow of a camp. You know? Like, I... Frankie was training with Team Rhino at the time, which was huge. They had like 60 fighters, something like that. Um, and (laughs) and I had like two 16-year-old blue belts, and like a purple belt, and another purple belt who was 305. And like (laughs) I had, I had, I had Dan to train with for, like, two weeks. Uh, he had, he had cracked a rib, and then like the first sparring session, I just hooked him to the body, and I was like, "Ah, fuck." (laughs) So he was out. So it was a, it was a shitty camp. Um, great fight. Frankie and I fucking... I, I've never seen the fight, but, uh, I had people coming up to me for years after that one like, "Dude, that fight with Frankie was, was crazy." I mean-

   11. JRJoe Rogan25:44

       Do you watch your fights afterwards?

   12. JMJim Miller25:46

       Uh, not usually. Not usually.

   13. JRJoe Rogan25:47

       How come?

   14. JMJim Miller25:48

       Uh, I don't know. Like, as I... I remember... Like, I remember the good and the bad, you know, and it's like I should. Um, but like I, I, I'm focusing on like what's next, and-

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:00

       Right.

   16. JMJim Miller26:00

       ... just tryna get myself better and, and work on those things. I let my coaches kinda peel that stuff apart.

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:06

       Do you watch tape on other guys, on opponents?

   18. JMJim Miller26:08

       Um, occasionally. Usually just to see them fight, you know, but like I'm not trying to break things down. 'Cause I... Uh, kinda what happened in that, that fight with Gray is that like I expected him to throw overhands and like looping punches, and he came out, and he just fed me straight rights. And it was like, you know, uh... I had been, I had been working with a boxing coach for a couple weeks, and next thing you know, I'm trying to like slip and move. And it's like, "That's not me." Um, but I'd been doing it for a couple weeks so I kinda picked it up and... Yeah, he, he broke my nose pretty early in the fight, and then, uh, continued to hit it (laughs) .

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:43

       (laughs)

   20. JMJim Miller26:43

       And uh... Yeah, it was like, uh, uh... It was a good learning experience, you know. But, uh...

10. 26:49 – 34:56

    Longevity management: coaching responsibility, smart sparring, and the UFC 300 target

    1. JRJoe Rogan26:49

       Well, he's an example of a guy who had wars-

    2. JMJim Miller26:53

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan26:53

       ... and then the wheels fell off.

    4. JMJim Miller26:55

       Yeah. Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan26:56

       Why do you think you have been able to fight the way y- you fight and not have the wheels fall off?

    6. JMJim Miller27:03

       Fuck if I know.

    7. JRJoe Rogan27:04

       Really? You don't?

    8. JMJim Miller27:05

       Uh, yeah, I... (laughs)

    9. JRJoe Rogan27:05

       There's no...

    10. JMJim Miller27:06

        Uh, luck. Um, like I said, I, I, I think I'm kinda... I'm, I'm built to get (laughs) roughed up, built to get, you know, into the mix, um-

    11. JRJoe Rogan27:16

        Just durable.

    12. JMJim Miller27:17

        Yeah. And, uh, you know, like... A- a- a- and then there's definitely a, uh, a portion of that that is like skill set. Like I, I try to, like... (laughs) I, I try not to get hit (laughs) .

    13. JRJoe Rogan27:32

        Right.

    14. JMJim Miller27:33

        You know? Like and I... And I'm willing to like, uh... Like if you keep your hand up, right? If I, if I throw a left and my right is glued to my face, I'm probably losing a little bit of power than if I like loop that left over and drop my right hand. But then if I... My opponent throws a counter, I'm more protected.

    15. JRJoe Rogan27:51

        Right.

    16. JMJim Miller27:53

        And that's what I'm trying to do. Like I'm trying to land good shots and hit people hard but be protected at the same time because I also consider myself a bit of a counter-puncher. So like I'm loo- I'm looking for somebody to throw something at me so that I can, you know, snap something at them. And, um... Yeah, I just, uh... I don't, I don't fucking know.

    17. JRJoe Rogan28:14

        It's kinda crazy-

    18. JMJim Miller28:15

        Totally.

    19. JRJoe Rogan28:15

        ... though if you really think about it because we all know guys that they... How do I put this charitably? They should've stopped a long time ago.

    20. JMJim Miller28:24

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan28:24

        And they kept going.

    22. JMJim Miller28:25

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan28:25

        And, you know, we all know them. Like we see them backstage, and we're like, "Oof."

    24. JMJim Miller28:29

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan28:29

        Like there was, there was guys at a certain point in time where I'd see that they were on the card, and then I would just like raise my eyebrows and take a deep breath. (breathes deeply)

    26. JMJim Miller28:36

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan28:36

        "Okay."

    28. JMJim Miller28:37

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan28:37

        You know, 'cause you know like they probably shouldn't be doing this anymore.

    30. JMJim Miller28:40

        Yeah.
11. 34:56 – 46:00

    Big super-gyms vs. tight camps: ego, safety, and why tailored coaching can win

    1. JRJoe Rogan34:56

       That's hilarious. Did you ever think at any point in your, uh, your career of relocating and going to a big camp, like American Top Team, or some...

    2. JMJim Miller35:05

       I, I did. I did. Um, so we, you know, my brother and I were training at, at uh, AMA Fight Club in, uh, in New Jersey. And there were, you know, there was some bullshit and you kn- we had a great group of guys, um, and that's kind of why I opened the place. Uh, and it was like, "Do I open my own place or do I go to a, you know, ATT, uh, or something like that?" Um, and honestly, I feel like having my own spot is... It saved, it saved me. It, it... If I was in one of those big gyms, um, like late 2015, early 2016 when I was sick with Lyme, uh, I, I don't th- I don't think I would have fucking made it, honestly. Um, I think the-

    3. JRJoe Rogan35:50

       How come?

    4. JMJim Miller35:50

       (sighs) Just the, like the attitude is different, right? When you, when you've got a big group of fighters, there's, there's definitely ego. And it's not gonna, that doesn't go away, right? But, you know, there are, there are plenty of sessions where it was like, I was kind of, you know, like (laughs) I got to def- I literally defend myself sometimes, you know. Like some of our sparring days were fucking insane. And like we had a, like I said, a fantastic group of guys. Um, you know, my brother and I, and Charlie Brenneman, and um, uh, we had, uh, like Jamie Varner came for a bit, and Brian McLaughlin and, and, uh, um, Rafael Oliveira, Tractor, fought in the UFC for a bit. Um, and like, like the best. Uh, like the best fucking, fucking group of, of good fighters but also good people, um, that were looking out for each other. I mean, we pushed each other but we were looking out. But, you know, injuries happened and, you know, like you, you, you push the shit out of each other and it's gonna happen. But, um, when it's like...... next thing you know, you've got some, you know, some Russian or something like that, that doesn't speak a lick of English, and you're, like, trying to tell him, "Hey, I'm, I'm fighting in a main event next, you know, next week. Don't, uh, you know, don't stomp my knee, please." (laughs)

    5. JRJoe Rogan37:13

       Right.

    6. JMJim Miller37:13

       And then it happens, and then it happens again, and then it happens again. You're like... It gets, it gets stressful. And I've, I've heard some of the other fighters that have left some of the big gyms talk about some of the same stuff, where it's like, uh, you know, 'cause, uh, obviously the gym is looking for as many people as they can 'cause it's a revolving door. Um, but you have to realize where the specific athletes are, like I said, like, good day or bad day.

    7. JRJoe Rogan37:40

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JMJim Miller37:40

       You know, and that's one of the things that I've, I've realized over the years, is it's like, man, like, as, as a 26-year-old, shit, there were fucking no bad days, really. It's like, one, one a year where I felt like, kinda sluggish. Where now, it's like, "Okay, you know, I, I listen to myself a bit more." Um, where, like, you, you have to have a coach that can do that too, because as a fighter, I feel like, uh, if I'm asked to something, I'm gonna do it, you know. And there are times where, like, my coach is gonna be like, "Nah, we're good. Like, we, we don't need to do the extra round, the extra two rounds. Like, you got it in today, and you're healthy."

    9. JRJoe Rogan38:19

       Right.

    10. JMJim Miller38:19

        "Like, that's what we need."

    11. JRJoe Rogan38:20

        Right.

    12. JMJim Miller38:20

        Um, so, like, I, I have a lot of, uh, admiration for some of those, the, the coaches at those big gyms. But, uh, I feel like that, what, what MMA is and how the teams are is kinda one of our detriments at the same time. I think there's, uh, way too many, like, uh, like, you know, gym wars.

    13. JRJoe Rogan38:44

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JMJim Miller38:44

        I think that they've, they've toned that shit down. Um, you know, talking to other fighters and stuff like that, I feel like it, it doesn't happen nearly as often as it used to. Uh, but, uh, it's still, it's... You, you got, you got two alphas, you know, (laughs) banging heads, and, and, uh, like, if you look at boxing and the model that they have, it's, it's usually just the small, you know, couple coaches, and you, you pull professional sparring partners in and stuff like that. So it's like, it's focused around the fighter. Now, granted, the pay s- the pay is completely different, and, and there's so much, there's so much, uh, so many differences between MMA and boxing. But I feel like, like that small, small tight-knit group is, it's, it's good. Like it's, uh, there, there's obviously a benefit to having all sorts of bodies and styles and all that stuff. But, uh...

    15. JRJoe Rogan39:37

        There's been some guys that have gotten very far with small gyms.

    16. JMJim Miller39:40

        Yeah, yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan39:40

        Stipe, right?

    18. JMJim Miller39:41

        Yup.

    19. JRJoe Rogan39:41

        Like, like Stipe's gym's not a small gym, but it's, it's not, like, known as been a place where people move there and train there-

    20. JMJim Miller39:48

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan39:48

        ... specifically because of that, um, Oliveira.

    22. JMJim Miller39:51

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan39:52

        You know, Charles Oliveira's-

    24. JMJim Miller39:53

        Yup.

    25. JRJoe Rogan39:53

        ... gym's not known as being like a, a hotbed gym.

    26. JMJim Miller39:56

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan39:56

        And there's, there's got... And there's, there's two schools of thought, right? There's a school of thought where you're better off in this giant ocean filled with sharks.

    28. JMJim Miller40:03

        Mm-hmm.

    29. JRJoe Rogan40:03

        And then the other school of thought is you're better off with specialized individual in- i- i- attention that's on you-

    30. JMJim Miller40:09

        I-
12. 46:00 – 1:03:40

    Jim Miller’s Lyme disease ordeal: misread symptoms, diagnosis challenges, and long recovery

    1. JRJoe Rogan46:00

       You know? Your, the body's not designed for this. So, speaking of b- we're humans, like, tell me about this Lyme disease thing-

    2. JMJim Miller46:06

       Oh.

    3. JRJoe Rogan46:06

       ... man, 'cause I'm terrified of Lyme disease.

    4. JMJim Miller46:08

       It, yeah, it's a bitch. Um, so I, uh, like 2015, um, I started feeling like shit. You know? And it was like joint pain. Was getting some, uh, like, neuropathy. I, I'd, I'd sit on the floor with my kids and my legs would fall asleep, or, you know, like, just positional shit. And it's like, I, I fucked my neck up in 2014, uh, (laughs) like 10 days before I fought Yancy Medeiros. Um, so I was like, "Okay, my neck's banged up." Like, whatever.

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:38

       Like, bulging disc? Like, what-

    6. JMJim Miller46:40

       Um, (laughs) I don't even really know.

    7. JRJoe Rogan46:42

       You didn't get an MRI?

    8. JMJim Miller46:42

       No, I didn't get an MRI (laughs) .

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:44

       Oh.

    10. JMJim Miller46:44

        It was 10 days before the fight. Uh (laughs) , it was the most unspectacular thing. It was like a whiplash injury. Uh, I, uh, I was sparring, uh, Mickey Gall when he was, like, 22, 21, and, uh, he threw, like, a hook, and I just clenched a body lock, and my head hit his, his chest. And it just tweaked to my left. And like, I felt it. I have it on video. And it's like, I'm like, shrugged my shoulders, moved my head around. It was the last round of the day. I was like, "All right, this is gonna hurt later, but we're gonna get through it." Um, like, I only got to that fight because of, you know, a chiropractor and his magic fingers, uh, and some Graston, uh (laughs) , but, uh... So like, uh, a lot of the symptoms that I was getting, um, from the Lyme, I attributed to being a fighter. I'm like, "My knees hurt." Well, of course they fucking hurt. Like, uh, you know? I mean, to the point where I'd be 45 minutes into a, a training session and have to get up like an old man, push on my knees, and stuff like that. Was getting, you know, numbness and tingling. Uh, I was getting, like, brain fog. And it was pretty good. I'd, I'd kinda like go into a room sometimes and like go to, like, clean up, and just kinda get lost. Um, so, uh, before my fight at 196, um, like, it got, it got so bad that I was, like, I was contemplating retirement at UFC 200. I was like, "I'm gonna get through 196. I'm gonna ask to fight on 200 to retire." Um, and, uh-

    11. JRJoe Rogan48:11

        And you had, did not know you had Lyme's at that point?

    12. JMJim Miller48:12

        Did not know I had Lyme disease. Um, you know, like I said, I, I... Nervous system was, was kinda shot. Um, joints were swollen. I'd, I'd get some twitching in my eye, was mostly where I'd get it. It would just, for like days on end. Um, uh, very occasionally, I would, uh, say the wrong word while I was speaking.

    13. JRJoe Rogan48:34

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JMJim Miller48:34

        And not even anything close. Like, just the complete w- wrong word would come out.

    15. JRJoe Rogan48:38

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JMJim Miller48:39

        Um, and (stutters) you know, you notice, and you're like, "What the fuck did I just say?" (laughs) Like, I hope-

    17. JRJoe Rogan48:44

        Right.

    18. JMJim Miller48:44

        ... they didn't notice. Um, so I was telling my doctor about this, uh, before my pre-fight physical, uh, or during my pre-fight physical for 196. And he's like, "You know?" He's like, "Honestly, is it... I think you have Lyme disease." And I was like, "All right." You know? So we, we ran some tests, tested me for Lyme. Um, to this day, I, I still don't test positive. It's about 50% of the people, uh, onl- that have Lyme test positive for it. Um, so he's like, uh, "If it's Lyme disease," you know, and he's like... We, we ran some other tests. There's some antibody that I had that showed infection that they associate sometimes with Lyme. Um, so he's like, "Oh, we're gonna put you on Doxy," and he's like, "If, if you do have Lyme disease, within, you know, a week, 10 days," he's like, "you're gonna feel different."... you know, like-

    19. JRJoe Rogan49:32

        What is it called? Doxine?

    20. JMJim Miller49:34

        Do-Doxycycline.

    21. JRJoe Rogan49:34

        Doxycycline.

    22. JMJim Miller49:36

        Um, so like, I fight, uh, fight Diego, and that was the first time, like, I was, I was kind of out of it. I barely trained for that fight. Um, like, uh, I would, I would miss training sessions, like live grappling sessions or sparring sessions and, like, 'cause I c- couldn't barely get out of bed or, like, uh... So I was, I, I would, I would get in maybe six sessions a week, um, you know, and kinda just focused on, like, "All right, well, I'll just be in shape," you know? Like, I could run on the treadmill. It's... The easiest thing for me to do at that point was to run on the treadmill, which is weird. It's different than what most people experience. Most people experience, uh, difficulty doing aerobic exercise and, uh, they can do anaerobic stuff. I couldn't do anaerobic stuff. Like, if I lifted, uh, or did sprints, I'd be banged up for fucking days.

    23. JRJoe Rogan50:29

        Hmm.

    24. JMJim Miller50:30

        Um, so, and, and that fight, like, I remember... Like, when I, when I fight and I think it, it has to do something with the lights too, like, I don't see the cage, like beyond the cage. I don't see anybody in the stands. I don't... I barely hear my fucking corner for crying out loud. Um, so that fight, I, the whole, during the whole fight, I could see, like, throughout in the stands. You know, I was so, like, unfocused-

    25. JRJoe Rogan50:59

        Hmm.

    26. JMJim Miller51:00

        ... um, that, like, it was just, it was a weird experience. It's the only time that's ever happened to me. Um, but I get out of the fight, uh, and, uh, and, and get on some Doxycycline, uh, the following week and it was, like, within (sighs) a week or so. Just like my doctor said, I started feeling way fucking better. Um, it took me a few years to figure out when exactly I got bit. I had assumed that it was probably early 2015 and then after learning about, uh, you know, the early symptoms of Lyme disease and (laughs) pulling my head out of my ass and remembering the experience that I had in 2013, it, I'm, I'm, uh, pretty much 100% confident that I was bit in, like, late May, early June of 2013.

    27. JRJoe Rogan51:45

        What makes you think that?

    28. JMJim Miller51:46

        Uh, I had a period of time where I was, like, I basically had morning sickness. I was extremely nauseous in the morning. Um, and, and, like, early Lyme, it's like flu-like symptoms and, and, and migraines and stuff like that and so I had really bad nausea. Like, if I w- picked up my coffee cup and I was, like, breathing in and I got a big whiff of my coffee, I'd, it would make me gag.

    29. JRJoe Rogan52:07

        Really?

    30. JMJim Miller52:08

        Uh, yeah. Uh, or like brushing my teeth. I'd fuck- just ta- the taste of like (laughs) t- the toothpaste would make me gag. Uh, I had two kids in, (laughs) in diapers at the time.
13. 1:03:40 – 1:11:32

    Lyme-related rabbit holes + family food realities: Morgellons, alpha-gal, and kids’ sensitivities

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:03:40

       And do you know what Morgellons is? You ever hear of that?

    2. JMJim Miller1:03:42

       Morgellons? No.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:03:43

       Morgellons is a disease that they don't even know if it's real.

    4. JMJim Miller1:03:46

       Hmm.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:03:47

       And, uh, I had to interview these people once at a Morgellons conference, and it's- it's very strange because they feel like they have fiber growing out of their body-

    6. JMJim Miller1:03:55

       Hmm.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:03:55

       ... and they have like these, they, they start itching themselves and they, they hallucinate. But one of the people that I talked to was a doctor, and he also has Morgellons. And he said, "But one thing that we all have in common is," he goes, "most of these people also have Lyme disease."

    8. JMJim Miller1:04:10

       Mm.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:04:11

       And y-

    10. JMJim Miller1:04:11

        It's th- th- they're, the links between Lyme and, uh, like ALS and, and some other stuff, it's like, it's fucking wild.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:04:19

        Oh, that makes sense, right-

    12. JMJim Miller1:04:21

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:04:21

        ... 'cause-

    14. JMJim Miller1:04:21

        It's crazy.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:04:21

        ... it's got neurological issues.

    16. JMJim Miller1:04:23

        Yeah, yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:04:23

        But what, what he was saying is that it's neurotoxic, in that when you say Lyme disease, like if a tick carries Lyme, the way he was describing it to me, it's like it's not as if it's like you can isolate a compound and that compound is Lyme.

    18. JMJim Miller1:04:37

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:04:37

        He said depending on the tick, it could have a host of different-

    20. JMJim Miller1:04:42

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:04:42

        ... toxins along with this one that we consider Lyme.

    22. JMJim Miller1:04:45

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:04:45

        It's not one thing.

    24. JMJim Miller1:04:47

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:04:47

        And he said the Lyme disease itself, like when people have Lyme, one of the, one of the symptoms is this neurotoxicity, and that in neurotoxicity, he believes that it can trigger hallucinations. So, he was seeing, like, things moving across his eyes.

    26. JMJim Miller1:05:05

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:05:05

        Like, he would look at himself in the mirror and he thought he saw like a worm moving-

    28. JMJim Miller1:05:09

        Ah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:05:09

        ... across his eyelids. So like, these people, they start scratching themselves-

    30. JMJim Miller1:05:15

        Mm-hmm.
14. 1:11:32 – 1:21:11

    Durable genetics and a ‘cartoon character’ dad: construction strength and near-death mishaps

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:11:32

       Your dad is, uh, was your dad a wrestler as well?

    2. JMJim Miller1:11:34

       No, no. My dad, uh, I think he wrestled like one or two years, but like, he, uh, he coulda, s- he probably coulda played football. He was a, he was a big dude. Um-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:11:45

       How'd he smash his discs?

    4. JMJim Miller1:11:47

       Carrying heavy shit.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:11:48

       Mm.

    6. JMJim Miller1:11:49

       Like, uh, (laughs) my dad, my dad is a, he still is today, just in a different way, but, uh, he, like, growing up, he was a cartoon character. Like, I w- I was looking through some pictures, and I, I, I posted one, uh, a couple weeks ago. He, ah, he looks like fucking Mr. Incredible from the, the cartoon movie-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:12:07

       (laughs)

    8. JMJim Miller1:12:07

       ... you know, the Pixar s- like, his head is just fucking this giant block, and like the one picture, I mean, he's got s- the '80s shirt, and it's like a, uh, like a V-neck or something, it's just this big plume of fucking black chest hair coming out.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:12:21

       (laughs)

    10. JMJim Miller1:12:21

        And it's like, dude, like, uh, he was, yeah, he was 6'4", 240, like just just, t- he's towered above everybody. And everybody always just thought he was, everybody thought he was, like, bigger than that. Like, it's okay. S- you know, I've met plenty of people who are bigger than he was, but he had this like presence that he was like seven foot tall and, you know, 500 pounds. Like, uh, but yeah, he used to, he used to carry just stupid shit, and-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:12:49

        Did he get his discs fused?

    12. JMJim Miller1:12:51

        No, no. They're just still kinda-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:12:53

        They're just all fucked up?

    14. JMJim Miller1:12:53

        Yeah, just a fucking little-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:12:55

        That's a shit design.

    16. JMJim Miller1:12:56

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:12:56

        The disc is a shit design-

    18. JMJim Miller1:12:58

        Well-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:12:58

        ... 'cause it's one of the things that goes in fighters-

    20. JMJim Miller1:13:01

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:13:01

        ... in wrestlers and jujitsu people more than anything. Everyone I know that does jujitsu has disc issues.

    22. JMJim Miller1:13:08

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:13:08

        A- after a while-

    24. JMJim Miller1:13:09

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:13:09

        ... they just hit a point where something's wrong.

    26. JMJim Miller1:13:11

        Yeah. He, he, he definitely like exacerbated those issues. (laughs) Like, like I've seen him ... So, uh, he used to, um, do like residential framing, you know, the like skeleton of the, the house, and um, this one builder that he used to work for, guy was a li- little tiny Italian guy, was a bit of an asshole. Um, he wouldn't like backfill the houses, the, to the, to the foundation. So it was, you had like one spot to maybe bring lumber in, uh, to, to the, you know, the foundation. So when we're doing the beams in the basement, um, like you'd have this 40-foot beam that weighs 800 pounds, and it's like you really don't have a good way to get it across the fucking, to the other side. So that motherfucker would cinch his tool belt tight, tall enough, his shoulder just fit right where the middle of the beam was, and he would pick that fucking shit up and walk across the stone, you know, three quarter gravel stone basement-... uh, get to the other end, lean back a little bit, lift it up, and put it on the side, and it's like-

Episode duration: 2:23:42