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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

JRE MMA Show #124 with Khalil Rountree

Joe is joined by UFC Light Heavyweight fighter Khalil Rountree Jr.

Joe RoganhostKhalil Rountree Jr.guest
Jun 27, 20242h 46mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:06

    Finland’s extreme sauna-and-ice-lake ritual

    1. NA

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

    2. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) So just tell me that again. So you were, you were do- what were you doing in Finland in the first place?

    3. KJ

      Uh, I was there, I was there with an ex, training. But aside from that, I was just there visiting. (laughs) I was just visiting Finland. Um-

    4. JR

      And so you decided to do a sauna in the motherland, 'cause that's, like, the home of saunas, isn't it?

    5. KJ

      Yes, it's the home of it. So, um, yeah, the people that were hosting us, they were like, "Hey, have you guys ever done sauna and, and ice lake?" Like, yeah, but never, like, in the ice lake after, and so-

    6. JR

      So what, they have, like, a shack that's the sauna that's next to the...

    7. KJ

      It's a shack. Yeah, it almost looks like a locker room, right? Like, and you just see bunch of people, like, all age groups. Um, there's a locker room where you get undressed, and then there's this huge box. Like I said, it fits, like, easily 50 to a hun- like, I mean, 50 to 100 people. And everyone's in there just packed. There was actually a line to get in, so when somebody steps out, you step in and kind of replace them.

    8. JR

      Oh, wow.

    9. KJ

      It's like bleacher seating. So you're in there, like, packed tight in maybe three or four rows, and it's hot as shit, (laughs) and...

    10. JR

      How hot?

    11. KJ

      I don't remember the exact temperature, but it was the hottest sauna that I've ever been in.

    12. JR

      Really?

    13. KJ

      Like, my skin was on fire.

    14. JR

      Whoa.

    15. KJ

      After maybe a minute, two minutes of being in there, I was like, "This is almost unbearable."

    16. JR

      That's probably the moisture. They probably threw a lot of water on that.

    17. KJ

      A lot of water, and then right after-

    18. JR

      That, that makes a fucking difference.

    19. KJ

      Right after, you just walk downstairs, or you walk outside, and there's a, a set of stairs where you walk literally right into the ice lake at night. We did it, it was, like, 9:00 or 10:00 PM.

    20. JR

      (exhales deeply)

    21. KJ

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      And so they just cut a hole in the lake?

    23. KJ

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      (laughs)

    25. KJ

      And you just walk. There's, like, a metal, like, uh, walkway that you can't see, so it looks like you're just walking into the water when, uh, at night, but there's, like, a little walkway, like a railway underwater, and you can hold onto the rail, and-

    26. JR

      Oh, wow.

    27. KJ

      ... you know, and do your lap. And, um, yeah, I think I did it, like, maybe four times, like, four sessions, and it was the best, like, one of the best things at the end of the night. I slept like a baby.

  2. 2:06 – 4:11

    Recovery as a competitive edge: sauna, stretching, breathing protocols

    1. JR

      Oh, you definitely do that. When I do it at night, when I do the cold plunge and the sauna, like, back to back at night, oh my God, you sleep so good. It just, it drains you. I do li- I love to do it before a podcast 'cause it empties my brain.

    2. KJ

      Mm.

    3. JR

      You know, 'cause the s- the sauna, I put it at 189 degrees, and today I did, uh, 15 minutes on, and then I did three minutes in the ice bath, and then I had a run here. And that's, so that's all I did today. But most days I do 20, and then I do the ice bath, and then I'll do another 15.

    4. KJ

      Got you.

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. KJ

      But in the morning, it's good, man.

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. KJ

      I feel like if I do that in the morning, I feel, like, a- alive.

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. KJ

      You know? Like, I don't have to do this crazy hard workout, just, like, sauna and ice tub in the morning, I feel, like, really revitalized, regenerated.

    11. JR

      Yeah. Well, it's, you know, that's something that I think more athletes and more fighters in particular need to concentrate on, is the recovery stuff. There's a lot of guys who just train like animals and just hope their body is going to recover just naturally, you know, just from hard work and eating well, and... But I think things like hardcore stretching, yoga if you can get it in, hot yoga, and particularly sauna and ice bath, they're so beneficial.

    12. KJ

      Yeah. My, my conditioning coach, who's, like, a gigantic fan of you, um, he...

    13. JR

      What's his name?

    14. KJ

      His name's Lorenzo Pavlika.

    15. JR

      Shout out to Lorenzo.

    16. KJ

      Shout out Lorenzo. Um, no, it's, it's something that he has me do almost, I'd say, like, three to four times a week, is that's a part of our, our training-

    17. JR

      Mm.

    18. KJ

      ... is sauna and ice, and stretching and breathing.

    19. JR

      Mm.

    20. KJ

      Um...

    21. JR

      What kind of breathing?

    22. KJ

      Uh, it's... I mean, I think what he calls it, Tumo breathing?

    23. JR

      Tumo?

    24. KJ

      Tumo.

    25. JR

      Mm.

    26. KJ

      I don't, I don't remem- I, that might be, I might be saying it wrong. But, um...

    27. JR

      How's it go?

    28. KJ

      It's, (sighs) it's, uh, short inhale, long exhale, short inhale, long exhale, like a l- uh, a lot, pretty rapidly.

    29. JR

      Mm.

    30. KJ

      And then-

  3. 4:11 – 8:14

    Microdosing mushrooms, weed, and ‘body clarity’ in training

    1. KJ

      So one of the cool things too is, um, like, doing sauna, ice bath, or a, you know, like, cold plunge, but also, um, with this Tumo breathing, I feel like something that really helped, uh, elevate and, like, activate everything in my body was I took a small little, like, uh, chocolate microdose mushroom.

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. KJ

      I ate a little piece of chocolate-

    4. JR

      Oh, yeah.

    5. KJ

      ... and then, like, kinda let that settle in. We were, like, calming down, and then got into this breathing exercise. And when I tell you just, there, like, I just felt so full. Like, my brain was firing differently, just so many sensations, uh, that I felt that were just, like, they felt like they were very healthy and, like, very powerful. Like, I needed those things. It was, it was a really cool, uh, cool experience to mix it with, uh, with the mushrooms a little bit.

    6. JR

      I think microdosing mushrooms is the future. I think if people did that... First of all, it doesn't affect your cognitive function, like, uh, in a negative way, like your ability to think or talk or d- or do work or anything like that. But it puts you in such a good place. It's like, "Ah."

    7. KJ

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      It's like this elevated place, but it's, it's not medicated. You don't feel bad when it's over.

    9. KJ

      Exactly.

    10. JR

      I love microdosing mushrooms.

    11. KJ

      Yeah, you don't really, like, trip out into this, like, crazy headspace, right?

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. KJ

      It's... I don't-

    14. JR

      Yeah, you're functional.

    15. KJ

      Yeah, very functional. If, yeah, if, if anything, clarity.

    16. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    17. KJ

      I feel like a bit, a bit more clarity, and a, in a different realm. Like...... not so much clarity, like, if I have caffeine and I'm, like, focused on my project.

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. KJ

      It kinda takes me away from a certain, like, aspect of my thinking. And I'm more, like, in, a little bit more in line with my, with my body.

    20. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    21. KJ

      Clarity with, like, my body and my senses.

    22. JR

      You feel your body better, right?

    23. KJ

      Yeah, yeah. Stretching is amazing.

    24. JR

      Yes.

    25. KJ

      (laughs)

    26. JR

      Yeah, it is.

    27. KJ

      You know, like stretching and breathing into stretches.

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. KJ

      And, you know, if you were to micro-dose and do yoga or something like that, I'm sure it would be-

    30. JR

      Yeah.

  4. 8:14 – 13:47

    Training to music: Wu-Tang as a mindset and performance trigger

    1. KJ

      Have you ever, uh, uh, tried doing, like, cardio or Airdyne bikes?

    2. JR

      Yes. Yeah, I like it.

    3. KJ

      Good.

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. KJ

      Yeah, same.

    6. JR

      I like it. Yeah, same thing. Yeah, it's, it's great for a lot of things, you know. I think, uh, it's not the best for learning for whatever reason. Like, I don't like it before I'm learning techniques. I think I learn- I, it's way better for me when I'm rolling.

    7. KJ

      Got you.

    8. JR

      You know, or, like, hitting the bag is the best. Getting high and hitting the bag is amazing. I just put on some good tunes.

    9. KJ

      That's all you need. (laughs)

    10. JR

      Yeah. Yeah, man.

    11. KJ

      That's all you need.

    12. JR

      And just feel it.

    13. KJ

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. KJ

      You don't need a partner. You don't need anybody, like, yelling at you. Just put on some music-

    16. JR

      Yep.

    17. KJ

      ... and, and let it flow.

    18. JR

      I b- usually I have, I use my round timer, and I have a Wu-Tang playlist. And I put the Wu-Tang Clan on-

    19. KJ

      Ah.

    20. JR

      ... and just fucking Gravel Pit, get into that music.

    21. KJ

      You know, I, that, that makes, that, it actually brings me into that. I feel like I totally connect with you because there's a whole nother level of training to Wu-Tang.

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. KJ

      Like, if you specifically put Wu-Tang on to train-

    24. JR

      Yeah.

    25. KJ

      ... like, I kinda get your mentality and that, that-

    26. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    27. KJ

      ... that internal-

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. KJ

      ... you know, feeling that you get. 'Cause, yeah, that's one of my, not my last fight, but the fight before, I walked out to Protect Ya Neck."

    30. JR

      Yes.

  5. 13:47 – 24:16

    Sampling, hip-hop evolution, and music-business pitfalls

    1. JR

      The interesting thing about hip hop is that it was the first musical genre, at least popular musical genre, that sampled stuff, like in that they ... And they ... It, it ... What ... You know, it made the songs more interesting because you heard a little bit of an old song in there, and you're like, "Oh, I remember that beat," but then it's all these new lyrics over that beat-

    2. KJ

      Yep.

    3. JR

      ... that changes what that beat is. And it's like there was this ... You know, there was, like, a lot of debate in the early days of sampling, like, "Is this stealing?" Like, "What is this?" It's like, "No, 'cause the other song still exists, and it's obvious that this is a piece of that other song."

    4. KJ

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      But it, and it, you know, like, but it enhances new music.

    6. KJ

      Yeah, exactly.

    7. JR

      It's a totally different thing. Like, taking little pieces of stuff and-

    8. KJ

      I-

    9. JR

      ... combining it together is an art form-

    10. KJ

      I see it-

    11. JR

      ... in and of itself.

    12. KJ

      ... personally as, as, like ... It's a, it's a, uh, it's an appreciation.

    13. JR

      Yes.

    14. KJ

      Right? It's like someone created this masterpiece already, and I took my favorite part from it and maybe just looped it or sped it up-

    15. JR

      Mm-hmm, yeah.

    16. KJ

      ... and then kind of made a version of it, not to, like, compete with-

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. KJ

      ... this other song, but it's like an appreciation. Like, "Thank you, you just made this amazing, you know, piece of music that I can now listen to on repeat or listen to in a way that, you know, translates to me in a certain way and to millions more."

    19. JR

      Yes.

    20. KJ

      I don't know. I don't-

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. KJ

      ... see a problem with it. I think it's cool.

    23. JR

      Yeah, it's not like they're pretending they didn't do that. You know what I mean? Like, stealing is like ... There's, there's been bands that have gotten in trouble because they have a riff that sounds exactly like an old riff that's on a record-

    24. KJ

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      ... and they don't give the other band credit. It's not a sample, they're just trying to copy it, and then they wind up losing all the royalties.

    26. KJ

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JR

      Like, do you remember that song Bittersweet Symphony?

    28. KJ

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      Yeah, that song, I believe they had to give all their money to the Rolling Stones.

    30. KJ

      Oh, no way.

  6. 24:16 – 28:10

    ‘First rap?’ 1940s clip, creativity, and the acceleration of genres

    1. JR

      Have you ever seen ... There's a video from like the 1930s, and it's like they- it says the f- it's the que- uh, the ... I saw it on YouTube. It was a question mark. Like, is this the first ever rap? And it's these dudes rhyming to music on some television show in like ... (upbeat music plays) Yeah.

    2. NA

      Would you folks like to learn everything in five easy lessons?

    3. KJ

      Yes.

    4. NA

      Well, send for our free booklet.

    5. JR

      (upbeat music plays) This isn't what I saw.

    6. KJ

      I don't think so. I want to sample this.

    7. JR

      'Cause what I saw was a video. What, that's it. That's it. Click on that one. Watch this.

    8. NA

      But it's oh, oh no. Oh, oh Noah, oh oh, oh Noah, I'm going to ride on the wind and tide. But it's oh, oh Noah, oh oh, oh Noah, I'm just gonna ride on the wind and tide.

    9. KJ

      This is 1940s.

    10. NA

      Oh, oh Noah, oh oh, oh Noah, I'm just gonna ride on the wind and tide. Brother Noah, my God's talking, I'm just gonna ride on the wind and tide. Said he would ride on the wind and tide, I'm just gonna ride on the wind and tide. Hey, children, stop, be still, and listen to me. When God walked down to the brandy sea. He declared that the evil would descend from man. And then he'd decide to destroy the land. And he spoke to Noah and Noah would stop.

    11. JR

      (laughs) That's right, yeah.

    12. NA

      He said, "Noah, I want you to build me an ark. I want you to build it three cubits long. I want you to build it big and strong. I want it 30 high and 50 wide so it will stand the wind and tide."

    13. JR

      This is kind of hip hop.

    14. KJ

      Yeah, I mean-

    15. JR

      It's kind of-

    16. KJ

      ... it's, it's hip hop with like a back melody going on.

    17. JR

      Right, with a back melody and dudes with nice suits on on television in 1940.

    18. NA

      Oh, oh Noah, oh oh, oh Noah.

    19. JR

      And acapella, and they're singing about the Bible. (laughs)

    20. KJ

      (laughs)

    21. NA

      I'm just gonna ride on the wind and tide. And I'm just gonna ride on the wind and tide.

    22. JR

      You know?

    23. KJ

      (humming)

    24. NA

      I'm just gonna ride on the wind and tide.

    25. JR

      But it's a completely different kind of music than what you think about from that era.

    26. KJ

      Yeah, 100%. Like 1940s, that's, that's not what was happening.

    27. JR

      What happened there? Was they adding music?

    28. NA

      They added a beat, yeah. You want to hear it?

    29. JR

      Let me hear it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

    30. NA

      My voice was heard. He said, "Now, Noah, let me tell you what to do. Calling the animals two by two." So he called them in an ark, two by two. He called the birdies, the ox with the kangaroo. Then he called in Jeff and Ham and Shem. Then light began to flood the land. He raised his hands to heaven on high. Shoot the stars, they fell from the sky.

  7. 28:10 – 37:44

    Bitcoin, censorship, and social media as ‘currency’

    1. KJ

      I mean, yeah, man. It's, it's, it's, it's a beautiful thing to see. I, I've been, yeah, very inspired by a lot of just evolution of music, of like finance, right? (laughs)

    2. JR

      You have?

    3. KJ

      Oh, yeah, man. Like-

    4. JR

      What do you ... In, in terms of finance.

    5. KJ

      Uh, so I've been really, really focused and like intrigued in this whole Bitcoin thing lately.

    6. JR

      Mm.

    7. KJ

      I've been doing a lot of research and just like trying to get my own understanding. I went to the Bitcoin conference in Miami this year and just got to see and hear some really, really cool things. And the people who are like pioneering this and, and really believing in, in Bitcoin specifically, not just like the whole world of cryptocurrency but Bitcoin itself. Um, I haven't been excited about something like this in a really long time, and I'm not a finance guy, you know? (laughs)

    8. JR

      Really?

    9. KJ

      I'm not a guy who grew up knowing about, you know, financial systems and, and networks and stock markets or anything. And now I'm finally at a point where I'm starting to be able to like see a future for myself and also a way to like ... People like me don't really have like generational wealth, right? And I don't understa- I don't see how, you know, I can really create that through fighting alone. So, lately I've just been trying to understand more of like the, the advancement of technology and kind of where we're headed, right?

    10. JR

      Mm.

    11. KJ

      Like for instance, you know, when I was a kid in the 1990s and, and, and early 2000s when the internet came versus now, like in that jump in my lifetime, it's night and day difference. Like I'm living in sci-fi compared to what was in the '90s, you know? So now just, you know, listening to people, um-... really, like, really smart people. Even like, uh, Yeonmi Park, who you had here.

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    13. KJ

      And hearing her and how, um, she spoke about how, like, Bitcoin is actually helping save, uh, some children from, like ... Like, so in North Korea, this is what she said. In North Korea, when women are, are, are taken as sex slaves and shipped over to Northern China where these guys are buying them ... Because China has this, um, this one child rule in, in certain areas, right? So if the woman, if the, if the sex slave has a child then that child is half North Korean and half Chinese, and the Chinese won't accept them and they can't go back to North Korea because the women kind of, like, escaped, right? So because of that there's actually what she said are pretty much millions of stateless children who can't get birth certificates, who can't get schooling, who can't get anything, and they are either, like, sent to prison camps as children or killed because they're ... The, what are they gonna do with them? China doesn't accept them and they can't go back to North Korea, so what happens, right? So there's, like, underground church groups that are actually taking these kids in. And because they can't use Chinese money and they, you know, because it's happening in China, because they can't use Chinese money the only currency that they can use right now is Bitcoin. And so people are able to fund them to, so that they can at least school these kids and feed them and things like that. So from like a, from like a currency and, like, money standpoint there's like a small fraction where I'm like-

    14. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    15. KJ

      "Okay, I see how this works." But then trying to uncover and, like, dive more into the whole system of how this can be implemented into just, like, daily society, I'm seeing more and more possibility and it's making me more and more secure on, "Hey man, I can actually finally have something that I own that's mine. Like, whatever I earn is going to be mine and you can't touch it." (laughs)

    16. JR

      Mm. Right.

    17. KJ

      No one can touch it. Every, from ... And there's a guy, uh, Adam Curry who, in fact he-

    18. JR

      He's a good buddy of mine.

    19. KJ

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. KJ

      You know, like, uh, uh, uh, podcast index. Like, his ... Now they've created this thing where y- um, if you want to have your own platform and not worry about being taken down or censored or whatever-

    22. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    23. KJ

      And you can also get paid in Satoshi, which are fractions of a Bitcoin, from the supporters. So you can stream your stats, you don't have to buy Bitcoin. You can create a platform where, "Hey, I'm speaking." If I wanted to start one and I'm like, "You know what? I don't have the money to actually buy Bitcoin but I do have a lot of stuff that I wanna talk about. Subscribe to my podcast and then my fans and my followers are streaming to me Satoshi just like they would on Instagram likes."

    24. JR

      Right.

    25. KJ

      You get what I'm saying? So likes and replays and all that stuff is also a currency that people don't really look at it that way but, like-

    26. JR

      Yeah.

    27. KJ

      ... a lot of these, a lot of these, like, companies that wanna do business with me it's like, "Oh, how many followers do you have? What's your Twitter engagement? What's your Instagram engagement? Oh, this video only got 70,000 plays." That's a form of currency-

    28. JR

      Yes.

    29. KJ

      ... because that's, like, looked at as, you know, my value and my worth on whether or not you're gonna work with me or not.

    30. JR

      Well, that's why shadow banning is so sneaky.

  8. 37:44 – 42:05

    A fighter’s mindset shift: ‘active duty’ approach, money realities, and career limits

    1. JR

      Well, you're an interesting guy, man. You're, you, you know, you're a great fighter, but you are ... Like, when you ta- ... If someone didn't know you were a fighter-

    2. KJ

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      ... and they just talked to you, they'd be like, "Oh, he's probably an artist or something."

    4. KJ

      Yeah. (laughs)

    5. JR

      You know, you don't seem-

    6. KJ

      I get that a lot.

    7. JR

      You, you, like ... You don't seem aggressive. You don't seem, like ... But you fight like you got rabies.

    8. KJ

      (laughs)

    9. JR

      You know? It's, it's crazy.

    10. KJ

      Fighting?

    11. JR

      It's interesting. Like, your last fight in particular, I felt, I felt it, it was really fascinating because against Roberson, you were, you were, um, fighting with a low stance. That was a totally different thing. Like, when you fought Eryk Anders, you, you're standing up straight, and you were very Thai style, light on the front leg.

    12. KJ

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      And in this fight, you're, like, hunkered down low and almost like a wrestler.

    14. KJ

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      But still firing off strikes from that stance.

    16. KJ

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      What were you doing? What was the game plan there?

    18. KJ

      (sighs) I, I don't know if there was ever really a game plan, Joe. Like-

    19. JR

      Really?

    20. KJ

      Like, there has been in the past, and I think just game plans for me sometimes require a bit too much thinking. When in reality, like, yeah, there's some thinking in fighting, but I don't want to ... Like, I think it's, it's good to have an idea of, you know, where I can finish the fight and where I want the fight to go and kind of stick to that. But if I get too attached to a game plan, then I might miss opportunities to do, you know, certain things-

    21. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. KJ

      ... in the, in the moment, right? Um-

    23. JR

      So is the game ... Is there a game plan involved in training, like training for ... Well, Karl is very-

    24. KJ

      I knew that he was-

    25. JR

      ... well-rounded.

    26. KJ

      I knew that he was gonna be a great striker.

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. KJ

      And, um-

    29. JR

      Well, he fought in Glory, right?

    30. KJ

      He fought in Glory, but I also knew that he was training at Glory Kickboxing with James Krause, and for me, I think that was my biggest, um ... That was my biggest concern is that he had Krause in his corner, if I'm being honest. I-

  9. 42:05 – 47:44

    Oblique kicks, legality, and long-term damage debates

    1. KJ

      I think, uh ...... uh, before the BuakawKis fight, the, uh, the oblique kick, before that one. Um, I lost, and my UFC contract was pretty much on the line. Like, I had lost, uh, in Abu Dhabi, and I'd lost-

    2. JR

      Wasn't that a side kick to the knee?

    3. KJ

      Yeah. Yeah.

    4. JR

      Why'd it, why'd they call it, uh, obli- oblique kick?

    5. KJ

      Oblique. I don't know, that's what people call it, oblique kick. I don't know.

    6. JR

      Isn't oblique kick the one where your, uh, your big toe's up and you shoot it to the body or to the legs?

    7. KJ

      I have no idea. It's, like-

    8. JR

      You know who's the shit at that? Lorenz Larkin.

    9. KJ

      Yeah. I tr-

    10. JR

      God.

    11. KJ

      I trained with him for this-

    12. JR

      Damn, dude.

    13. KJ

      ... for this last camp. He's sick. Yeah, he's-

    14. JR

      He throws that thing to the body like-

    15. KJ

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      ... like a front kick.

    17. KJ

      He's made me like, ugh, a lot of times. (laughs)

    18. JR

      When he fought Neil Magny ... See if you can find that fight. Find, um, Lorenz Larkin versus Neil Magny. He's a wicked striker.

    19. KJ

      Mm.

    20. JR

      Very interesting striker. He's, that is a guy, Lorenz Larkin's a guy who didn't get the credit he deserved.

    21. KJ

      Yeah, man. But he's-

    22. JR

      I felt like he-

    23. KJ

      ... he's still doing his thing.

    24. JR

      He is still doing his thing, but he, I felt like he went over to Bellator and I wish he kinda didn't.

    25. KJ

      Mm.

    26. JR

      'Cause I think he was in the hunt at 170 in the UFC. I mean, I think he was one of the elite of the elite, and he was still improving and growing. And the problem with you going over to Bellator is, I'm sure you're getting good money, I'm sure everything's great over there, but you got way less eyeballs.

    27. KJ

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      It's just, that's just how it is.

    29. KJ

      Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a-

    30. JR

      So, watch how he throws this to the body. Look at that shit, man.

  10. 47:44 – 54:08

    Thailand pull and near-retirement: simple life vs the UFC grind

    1. JR

      You were thinking about being done at one time-

    2. KJ

      Yeah. Yeah.

    3. JR

      ... though, fairly recently, right?

    4. KJ

      Yeah. Like, um, I think it was-

    5. JR

      Was that the Cutilabra fight?

    6. KJ

      The ... After that fight. I th-

    7. JR

      Was it after that fight?

    8. KJ

      Yeah, I think it was after that fight. Um, it was before the Prachnio fight, the one that was in Abu Dhabi.

    9. JR

      Why were you thinking about ending?

    10. KJ

      Uh, because after I had spoken to you from being in Thailand and having that performance with Eryk Anders, all that, um, I had reached a place where I felt like I was just happy with my life. And I was in Thailand, and I saw just the quality of life there. And I had, you know, I had this idea that I was gonna live there forever. And, um-... I would have been happy just, like, serving coffee at a, you know, at a cool spot in, you know, in Sukhumvit, Bangkok, you know, because, like, just the people there are so cool, and I just-

    11. JR

      So nice, right?

    12. KJ

      ... I love Thai people, and I feel like there's a part of, inside of me that's Thai, you know? And I'm like, "I belong here."

    13. JR

      (laughs) Wow.

    14. KJ

      And so, um, I just, I came to a point where I'm like, "I think I'm striving for too much, like, in America." Like, just, I wanna have all of these things. I wanna have a big house, and I wanna have a lot of money, when in reality, like, I don't absolutely need it all because I'm, um, my heart is full right now. (laughs)

    15. JR

      Right.

    16. KJ

      You know? So, I just... And I wanted to fight Muay Thai, and the UFC were like, "No, you can't do that." I want, I wanted to fight in the stadium-

    17. JR

      Mmm.

    18. KJ

      ... at, you know, at Rajadamnern Stadium.

    19. JR

      Oh, wow.

    20. KJ

      And my friend, who's like one of the biggest promoters in Thailand, was like, "Yeah, I can do it. And we can make it for the WBC heavyweight belt." And I was like-

    21. JR

      Oh, wow.

    22. KJ

      ... "You mean the green one?" He's like, "Yeah, we can make it at the stadium." And I was like, "Okay." But I had to get the clearance from UFC, and obviously, that's a hard no.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. KJ

      And so, I was so passionate about wanting to stay in Thailand and wanting to fight Muay Thai that I was willing to give up my, my, I was willing to fight my last fight on, in the UFC and kind of become like a sensation in Thailand.

    25. JR

      Wow.

    26. KJ

      Yeah, man. (laughs) I, and like, even to this day, there's a part of me that still wants to do it. But now, like I said, I'm, I'm worried... Not worried, but I'm focused on, like, just creating something out of all of this, you know, for, for myself, for my family, you know?

    27. JR

      Mmm.

    28. KJ

      Something like some type of generational, generational wealth, man.

    29. JR

      But what made you make that adjustment? In- instead of saying, "I'm gonna live in Thailand, live a simple life amongst these happy, smiling, friendly people," to, "I'm back on the hunt"?

    30. KJ

      Uh, so during the pandemic, uh, I was in Thailand. So I was locked down there, um, for, yeah, for all of 2021, or 2020. And, um, my fiance and I were there, and we decided, like, we have to come back because, at that time, it was very hard to get any type of paperwork from the embassy. And, um, and debit card, my debit card got lost, and they couldn't... Like, the height of the pandemic.

  11. 54:08 – 1:05:30

    Muay Thai fundamentals: balance, clinch mastery, defense, and sweeps

    1. JR

      Oh, for sure. Yeah, definitely. I'd love to see some of the shit you learned in Thailand, 'cause you were telling me that they taught you to kick differently.

    2. KJ

      Kick differently. Uh-

    3. JR

      What, what was the different?

    4. KJ

      So, there's different like, um, they added the... How do I put this?... balance is something that's very focused on in, in real Muay Thai. Like, you get judged on your balance. If you have shit balance when you throw a kick, when you ... You should be able to throw a kick, check a kick, and land back in your stance, and fire another kick, knee, and elbow seamlessly. (laughs) You get what I'm saying?

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. KJ

      Like, that's real Muay Thai, like, being in full control, being able to throw a full body kick, check midair, you know? So, just, it shaped my perspective, um, on kicking. Um, something that, yeah, I feel like I'd have to show you it versus, like, explain it to you. Um, also, I know how to clinch. I know how to properly clinch now, and I ... If, if you've ... If you talk to anybody who's trained with me, you know, over the past year, I, I love my clinch game. I'm so, like, confident in-

    7. JR

      Mm.

    8. KJ

      ... in my clinch. And it's not just grabbing behind the head and throwing knees. Like, I feel like I have some techniques that if you can get out of it, like, like, I'll give you, like, a lot of props if you can get out of my clinch. And so, uh-

    9. JR

      You mean, like, just a straight plum? Or are you talking about just any kind of clinch? MMA clinching?

    10. KJ

      Like, my, my Thai clinch. (laughs)

    11. JR

      Yeah, right.

    12. KJ

      Like, yeah. So, like, um, like, if I were to tie up with you and not even go for a body, just we're just playing a standup clinch game-

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. KJ

      ... and I'm controlling your entire body by just, like, from the shoulders up and arms up.

    15. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    16. KJ

      Um, I'm very confident in that and I feel good about it, and I owe it to, you know, being able to clinch for 45 minutes a day in Thailand for a couple of years, you know?

    17. JR

      It's a real underrated aspect of Muay Thai, the, the clinch game and then the trip game.

    18. KJ

      Yeah. Sweeps.

    19. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    20. KJ

      Like, trips and sweeps are-

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. KJ

      ... like, some of my favorite things to do now. And it all comes from being able to be a student of the game and see ... Like, one of the, one of the guys, um, one of the trainers, he didn't even really talk to me much, but one day I was training and he was like, "If you don't have defense, you don't ... Like, you're not a fighter." Like, you don't ... (laughs) Like, you ... Yeah, you can have all the offense in the world, but like, your defense sucks, so, like, work on your defense. And that's like checking kicks, blocking kicks-

    23. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. KJ

      ... being able to identify, you know, you know, offense and defense, you know?

    25. JR

      Yes.

    26. KJ

      It's like, deliver full strikes and then defend fully.

    27. JR

      Right.

    28. KJ

      Um, so they have a very, like, simple way of putting things, but it's all for, like, a reason and ... Yeah. And so now, I, I, I think ... Yeah. I can, I can show it more than I can explain it, like, from across the table, you know what I mean? But I'd love to be able to show you a few things.

    29. JR

      I would love to learn some stuff.

    30. KJ

      Yeah.

  12. 1:05:30 – 1:27:26

    Acting ambitions and a post-fight mental-health ripple effect

    1. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    2. KJ

      You know how like I acted in my first movie, I don't know if you saw with the-

    3. JR

      Oh, yeah?

    4. KJ

      ... Anderson... me, Anderson, Rampage, Treach from Naughty by Nature.

    5. JR

      Oh, no shit?

    6. KJ

      Yeah, we're all in a movie together, crime drama called Lord of the Streets. Um, that was-

    7. JR

      Is it good?

    8. KJ

      Uh, eh.

    9. JR

      Okay. I was gonna ask you-

    10. KJ

      The movie's good.

    11. JR

      ... is it terrible? (laughs)

    12. KJ

      It's not terrible. Here, h- how... here. The movie's not terrible. It's definitely like, it's watchable and it's-

    13. JR

      Yeah?

    14. KJ

      ... enjoyable. There are some parts in there that it's like, "Holy shit." Like...

    15. JR

      That's cool. What's it called?

    16. KJ

      I didn't hate it. I haven't gotten any... Lord of the Streets.

    17. JR

      Lord of the Streets.

    18. KJ

      I haven't gotten anyone that's like, "Yo dude, that movie fucking sucked."

    19. JR

      (laughs)

    20. KJ

      Like, no one said that.

    21. JR

      Who's gonna say that to you? (laughs)

    22. KJ

      I haven't even heard it like, through the grapevine. (laughs) Like through the grapevine. I'm sure people think it, but-

    23. JR

      They might say it on the internet.

    24. KJ

      Um-

    25. JR

      They're not gonna say it in front of you.

    26. KJ

      Nah, it's, it's definitely something that I watched. And like, there's some cheesy parts, but overall, like the storyline-

    27. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    28. KJ

      ... and the fact that all of us really did go in there and like, give our best, I think it shows.

    29. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    30. KJ

      You know what I mean? I think it shows. And if you're a fan of... ah yeah, here's the trailer. Can you rewind it really quick with the sound? Is that possible?

Episode duration: 2:46:50

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