EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,240 words- 0:00 – 2:26
USADA wake-up calls, EPO talk, and how common PEDs really are
- KUKamaru Usman
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
- JRJoe Rogan
The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)
- KUKamaru Usman
Just gotta, uh, you know, make sure that USADA whereby is up to date. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that what you just did?
- KUKamaru Usman
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I can't believe they woke you up at 5:30 in the fucking morning.
- KUKamaru Usman
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's ridiculous.
- KUKamaru Usman
They don't care.
- JRJoe Rogan
But that's not even not caring. That's like negligent. It's like if you're, if you have an athlete, and the athlete has to rest and recover, and you're waking them up at 5:30 in the morning, you break their sleep cycle. You're affecting their training. You could cause an injury. You could ... A lot of shit could be wrong.
- KUKamaru Usman
(sighs) But, uh, I think for them, it's, um ... It, it's, oh, well, we're, we're tr- ... I, I don't, well, I don't know 'cause I'm not them. But, you know, I think some people, fighters feel like, "Oh, it's, they're, oh, we're gonna catch them."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
"It's 5:30 in the morning. We're gonna catch them before they do anything," which is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, Ali was saying-
- KUKamaru Usman
... pretty stupid.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that it's EPO, that it's like short-lasting. So if people take it and they take it at night-
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it'll be out of their system by the time USADA shows up. If they show up at 9:00 AM then, you know ...
- KUKamaru Usman
I wouldn't fucking know. Maybe he was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
(laughs) Like Ali, how do you know that information? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
How does he, though? Well, well you know, if you're a manager, you, you're dealing with at least one cheater.
- KUKamaru Usman
(sighs) Um, yeah. I'm sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
If you have 50 clients, there's a guy in there that's doing something funky.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What percentage of fighters do you think are doing something?
- KUKamaru Usman
(clicks tongue) Do I think nowadays? I mean, it's, it's tough. It's tough. I, 'cause I never really, I never focused on that. I never worried about it. But I, I did know that, you know, yeah, some fighters you could just, you could see back in the day like, "Hey, (laughs) this is not normal."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KUKamaru Usman
"Last year I saw you, you didn't look like that."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 2:26 – 8:25
Getting accused online: the scar story and why “PED spotting” is flawed
- KUKamaru Usman
It's, it's, it's funny to me because, um, I get it all the time now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Of course.
- KUKamaru Usman
Like people, people accuse me all the time and, um, and I, I haven't really told this story. But so, I, one day I, I saw like people kept tagging me in this video. And it was this, some fucking guy, some dumbass that's on YouTube that, that swears he can spot people that do, you know, PEDs.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that's probably.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
More Plates More Dates.
- KUKamaru Usman
Maybe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
I, I don't-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's, uh-
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah, I don't know. Some-
- JRJoe Rogan
... Derek.
- KUKamaru Usman
Some fucking guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's been on the podcast before.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah. So he's like, "Yeah, I, I know that guy's doing it because I can see the marks on him and, and stuff like that." (inhales) And so he starts point, they, they start pointing out 'cause I have, uh, like, like five scars on my stomach. Like, you know, like burn, like discolor- coloration on my stomach. And it, and he starts, they start pointing at that and he starts talking about it and, and making up this whole theory. And it kinda, it, it kinda hurt my feelings a little bit 'cause it ... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) It should make you happy.
- KUKamaru Usman
Because I was, I was, I ... Okay, so let's, here's the story. I was a little self-conscious about it because ... So this is what happened. I was in college. This was my s- ... I wanna say junior year, sophomore, junior year, going into my junior season. And, um, actually I think it was after my junior season. So I, I started getting these ... I got a, like a, a mole on like my stomach. And I got one like on my, my hand. And I, I'm one of those, I'm kinda like a clean freak. Like I shower, you know, after practice right away. So I start scratching it and then it starts bleeding. So I'm like, "Fuck, that's not a regular ... I thought it was like a pimple. That's not a regular, like a zit or something like that." So and then I, you know, over time it was like, maybe it was like five little, it was like tiny. You could barely see them. So I'm like, "You know what? I'm gonna ask the doc." We have a team doctor. "I'm gonna ask him about it." So I went in for a physical and then I, uh, well before the season, I asked him, "Hey, you know, I have this right here. I don't know what they are." So he looks at them and he goes, "Oh, these are, uh, non-cancerous moles. They're just little bitty moles. You know, it's very, very common." I'm like, "Shit, not for me." I don't know. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
It's just ... Common for me. He's like, "Yeah, they're very common." I'm like, "Yeah, well how can I get rid of them?" I tried to scratch them and they, they were bleeding. He's like, "Yeah, you don't wanna do that. Uh, what we could do is we c- I can burn them off." And I'm like, "Okay, fuck it. Let's do it." 'Cause A, uh, spring break was gonna come up.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) You can't be walking around with moles.
- KUKamaru Usman
Like I, I'd started, I started (laughs) I started ... I'm, I'm lifting now. I, I got a body now, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KUKamaru Usman
I'm a, a, you know, I'm a junior and I, I, I've ... Look jacked. So I'm like, "Spring break is coming. I wanna look jacked. I wanna look good." You know? So I don't care walking around with those. Fuck no. So he's like, "All right, I can burn them off." So he burns them off with I think nitrogen or something like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KUKamaru Usman
So he burns them and then he goes, "Hey, those are gonna fall off in a couple days. You know, just give him time." So I'm like, "Okay." But I was so like ... I was still training heavily during the summer because I was just like an addict of, of wrestling. I wanted to ... For me, I wanted to get, catch up to everybody and I wanted to exceed everybody. So this was my time, the summer, that, that was my time for me to catch up. So my dumbass, I go back the next day. I go to school and, um-... back to the school. And I go in, and I go drill, I go wrestle. I couldn't stop. I was just training all summer. So I wrestled, and I didn't think anything of it. I was like, "Okay. They just burned those, but nothing has happened yet." And so I wrestled. And then later that evening, I'm sitting in my... Uh, I go, I get down, and I get in the shower. And I'm showering, and all of a sudden, it's just burning down there. And I look down, and I had, like, scraped them off, like so. As soon as he burned them, he said, "Don't do anything. They're gonna fall off on their own." But my dumb ass wrestled, and it rubbed up against it, and now they all fell off. So then they scarred up, 'cause now I was, like, out for, like, seven days. Like, putting Neosporin on it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- KUKamaru Usman
... just so they could heal. And then they scarred over. So I have those from just that moment. So then this fucking guy's like-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
"Oh, he's, he's doing PEDs. Look, look, he's got the marks on his stomach." And it hurt my feelings. I'm like, I'm, I'm like one of those guys who I'm like, I don't even think about PEDs. Because my work, even if you... I don't care, I probably have dealt with someone that was cheating or competed against someone that was cheating, but my work will far exceed all of that. And so when I see idiots o-online or something, "Oh yeah, I know for a fact he's doing PED," I'm like, "Have you ever been to fucking Africa? Have you been to Africa?" There's a lot of Francis Ngannou's walking around.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- 8:25 – 11:35
Sweetest wins, Covington’s trash talk, and the psychology of hate-watching
- JRJoe Rogan
Was that your sweetest victory, the second Masvidal fight?
- KUKamaru Usman
It's tough, tough to call.
- JRJoe Rogan
That one was so-
- KUKamaru Usman
I think, no, I think my-
- JRJoe Rogan
... shocking.
- KUKamaru Usman
I think the first, the first Covington fight-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- KUKamaru Usman
... is probably the sweetest.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just to stop him?
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah. And I was dealing, like... I deal, you deal with so much, we deal with so much things going into fights, before fights. And I don't think people care. People don't care about it, but I don't think people understand. So to make it to that fight, just to, to get in there, to step in there on fight day, nowadays I'm so grateful. Because you deal with so much, from family, from relationships, to, to children, to injuries, to finances, all of that, and coaching, to where by the time you actually step in there, it's like, like peaceful. This is like... I'm grateful to be in here, that I actually made it in here. So I think, um, that Covington fight was probably, the first one was probably the sweetest. There was just too much going into that.
- JRJoe Rogan
There was so much shit talking.
- KUKamaru Usman
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
He, he puts people in a crazy state of mind.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause he goes dark, man. He goes after your family. He goes after your friends. He goes after past relationships. He g- he just tries to find anything that he can light on fire.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah, there's a, there's an art to that. I mean some guys-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
Some guys, it works for. But it's... For me, what I would love to do is ask... And that, it... Hopefully, in f- in the future, I can do that and just sit down with these guys and, and ask them, like what, "How did you feel after that?" Like, what, like, "Are you hu-" You, you com- you gotta be human too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KUKamaru Usman
You gotta feel something-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KUKamaru Usman
... after you go that far. And let's say you don't win, you do lose. How do you feel sitting at home?
- JRJoe Rogan
Can't be good.
- KUKamaru Usman
That... No, you can't... Like, I know how bad you feel losing. I've lost now twice, so I know how bad that feels at home. How do you feel when you got your ass kicked and you did all of this shit talking? All of this, and it didn't work?
- JRJoe Rogan
All negative too.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really negative.
- KUKamaru Usman
Oh yeah. There's a dark energy and a dark aura that, that just surrounds that when you, when you do that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- 11:35 – 21:06
Training-room reality checks: Michael Johnson and Rashad Evans sparring stories
- KUKamaru Usman
That was, that was bittersweet for me.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and he kind of quit.
- KUKamaru Usman
That one was, that one was hard to watch because Mike was like my training partner at that time. We were really like training together.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KUKamaru Usman
And Mike was on the upswing 'cause Mike had just killed Poirier and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
And he was-Mike was really having a great, great run.
- JRJoe Rogan
I got very offended when they were talking about Poirier and that like, the, uh, I think it was Stephen A. Smith was talking about, uh, one, like, uh, accidental loss, I forget how he put it-
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to Michael Johnson. One inexplicable loss to Michael Johnson. Like, what the fuck are you talking about?
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like Michael Johnson's a savage.
- KUKamaru Usman
Oh, Michael, I think, is one of the most dangerous lightweights to not ever fight for the title.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's dangerous as fuck, man. When he's on-
- KUKamaru Usman
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... when he knocked out Poirier, uh, uh, he dinged Khabib too. He had Khabib in a little, a little rocky for a second there and maybe the only guy to ever do it.
- KUKamaru Usman
The weird thing about Michael Johnson is he doesn't look the part. He's, he looks, long limbs, they look skinny, but he's got speed and power. Till this, well, until Leon.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
(laughs) Michael's the only guy that's ever dropped me, sat me down and, and while I felt worse after that than I do now after the Leon situation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why?
- KUKamaru Usman
Because, because he, he beat my ass. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah, Mike, Mike beat my ass that spar set. It was, it was early on. I think it was like, I was like maybe in the second year of, of training MMA and Michael was getting ready for a fight. He was in the UFC at this point and he's, he was like maybe two, three weeks out. Three weeks out and Mike's on 'cause he, Mike... And that's another thing I love about Mike, is Mike likes to train. It might not be all the things that he should be training, but Mike loves to train. He loves to spar. And so I just, I think it was in between my first and second fight, I just came off of my first win, so I'd had a couple weeks off. So I'm coming in and I'm sparring Michael Johnson and he's three weeks out from his fight. Mike's on at this point. And we're sparring, we're sparring and, and, you know, I'm trying to fake it. I'm trying... I'm the bigger guy so I'm trying to like, you know, I didn't find a groove. I didn't have a groove at this point. I was just a guy who could wrestle and throw punches. And Mike is, is moving his feet. He's touching me, he's touching me. He starts slow, he starts slow, then he starts picking up the pace. And then I was like I'm, I'm gasping for air and we're fucking two minutes in.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
And he's still just peppering me and, and then now he starts to land shots and they're getting harder and harder and harder. Now we're three minutes in and I c- I'm waiting for the bell to go off, but no, we're still stuck in here. And, and at that point, I would d- I would spar with head gear. So I'm like, "Nah, fuck. This headgear's getting in my way." (laughs) That's what's causing it. But no, Mike was just beating my ass. So I take the headgear off and we're still going and he just puts a combination on me. Bing, bing, bing. Sits me down. Bing and I fall like on my hand and I roll over and this is how fucked up it is. Rashad had the whole thing recorded and had it on his phone. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
Forever. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- 21:06 – 29:09
Losing the belt: relief of expectations, GOAT debates, and MMA’s rapid evolution
- JRJoe Rogan
You were saying that it's a- almost a little bit of a relief.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah. Yeah, it- it was... It's weird. It's weird to really explain. But it's... You get to a certain point to where people start putting expectations on you. They start, like, "Oh, yeah, you're gonna do this. You're gonna do that. Yeah, you're- you're this, you're that," to where I didn't get into it for all of that. I was never... I was never attached to the title. Now, as weird as that sound, I didn't. I was- I was never attached to it. It wasn't like, "Oh, I'm champion, I gotta hold onto this, I gotta hold onto this, I gotta hold onto this." No, and I've said it before and I continue to say it: in my head, each and every time I was fighting for that title or defending that belt, I was fighting for the title. I was a contender in my head. I felt like that. "I have to go contend for this belt each and every time." So, because I feel like when you're defending, you- you're tight. Now you're on defense. You're not thinking offense, you just wanna... Anything to hold onto this, anything to hold onto this. I was never really like that. So, when everyone got- felt like, kinda started putting expectations, like, "Yo, oh, you're about to break this record," I didn't know. I didn't even know what Anderson Silva's record was until, like, before last fight, where everyone started saying, "Oh, yeah, you're about to break the- the Anderson Silva's record," or, "You're about to tie this," and, "Yo, you already broke Georges St-Pierre's record." I don't care, I don't give a shit. The last time I cared about the number was when I was 5-1 and I was about to get into the UFC. I was like, "Yeah, I'm 5-1. Damn, Rashad went on, like, a 15-fight win streak one time. Damn, I wish I could do something that great." And... But I just... Rashad even told me at that point, he's like, "You just take it fight at a time. As long as you worry about that next fight, and that next fight, and that next fight, they'll- they'll add up." And so, yeah, it was almost like a relief of expectations, of everyone's pressure, of, "Oh, yeah, you're the GOAT this, you're the GOAT that." That's relative. That's-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's-
- KUKamaru Usman
That's a relative... Like, it's hard to argue that situation, because Georges St-Pierre was the greatest in his era. With what he had to deal with, the opposition he had to deal with, he was the greatest, hands down. And, you know, when Georges St-Pierre kind of moved aside, Woodley was- was that guy. And- and then Robbie had a stint there where Robbie was that guy. So... And Pat Miletich had a stint when he was that guy. So was- did Matt Hughes. And so to say, "Oh, yeah, that guy's the GOAT," that- that's relative, because styles make fights, you know, and you can never really tell what would transpire if this guy goes with that guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Styles make fights, and it's also guys are building on the work that was done before them.
- KUKamaru Usman
Absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause if you look at the fighters from 1993, that's the best example, 'cause it's one of the rare sports...... where we get to see a stark contrast between the early days of the UFC and the current days. If you go back and watch basketball in 1993, it's pretty similar to basketball today. There might be better athletes today, people are better at everything today-
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but it's still basketball. The UFC's almost unrecognizable.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You watch the way people fought back then versus the way people fight now. I mean, there's no comparison. You gotta go to, like, UFC 12, you see, see Vitor's debut, and you go-
- KUKamaru Usman
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... "Okay, well th- now we're looking at, like, what a real modern mixed martial artist looks like."
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then you, and then you, there's a few guys along the way that were outliers that were much better than everybody else, and now you have a whole roster filled with people like that. And when you watch the development of fighters, one of... I mean, every fighter learns from the people that are in their gym and they learn from the people that they see fighting. And so everybody of today, you, you have Tyron W- Woodley's videos to watch, you have the fights that Georges St-Pierre had to watch. You had all these different fights that you can watch and y- you can learn from all these. The Anderson Silva fights-
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the Jon Jones fights. Like, there's so much knowledge that's accumulated in the minds of the athletes now, and that's built on the people that came before them. I'm like, yeah, of course, they, they have to do the work.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And yeah, of course, you know, the, the thing that's most impressive about a person like yourself is that in spite of all this knowledge out there and in spite of all these athletes, you are still dominating. There's so... The level's so high, there's so many great guys. I think the level of your competition was higher than the level of anybody else's competition, because I think that everybody's better now.
- KUKamaru Usman
Oh, absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think when you look at the guys that you faced, and you look at Gilbert, and you look at Colby, and you look at Masvidal, you look at all these guys that you've faced, man, that's a, that's a serious resume of hard-hitting fighters. Like, really, really talented, really skillful fighters.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah, I started... When you start watching, and like I mentioned, I, I, I started doing research when I started getting more and more into MMA, and, and yeah, that's why I'm like, "Damn, Joe had hair. Joe was, Joe was..." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) It was 20 years ago, man.
- KUKamaru Usman
It was... That's crazy to me.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's nuts.
- KUKamaru Usman
And that's how long you've been in the sport, you've been covering it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I started in '97 as a post-fight interviewer.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah, I saw that.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's wild.
- KUKamaru Usman
That... Yeah, and some of the questions you would ask too was, was, was wild. I'm like, "Damn." (laughs)
- 29:09 – 32:37
Social media after a KO: fake pages, memes, and refusing to be rattled
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, we were talking about staying off social media after the loss.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're like, you can't, you can't read them memes.
- KUKamaru Usman
It's, it's funny to me. The thing is, everyone expected me... I, I feel like you get to a certain point and it's the weirdest thing to me. It's like, I don't understand how people, people just want to see the demise of someone else. Like, it's like people are fiending for that. They stay and they sit there and they keep on watching it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, but that's because you're so much more successful than them.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah, that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
For the average person-
- KUKamaru Usman
That's what I don't understand.
- JRJoe Rogan
The average person-
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the idea of being the welterweight champion of the world, you walk into an arena and you raise your arms and 18,000 people go, "Yeah!" (sighs) That's-
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that's alien.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's... Y- you might as well be living on the moon. That doesn't even make sense to most people.
- KUKamaru Usman
It... Yeah, I get it.
- JRJoe Rogan
So when they see someone like you and you're killing it and you're going on this unbeaten streak and you're dominating everyone, you dominate Tyron Woodley to, to win the title. You knock out Masvidal with one punch. Holy shit. This... It's wild.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they just want you to fall apart because they can't compare to you.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah, and it's... You know, I- I- I recognize that, you know, and even after the last time we, we spoke and... I don't... I'm not on social media like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good.
- KUKamaru Usman
Like, I'll post something here and there. Some days I'll go a few days and not even look at it. Some days I'll, uh, you know, post. And that's, I guess, a good and a bad thing with the a- the new algorithm that kind of Instagram has is you don't just see everybody's shit, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KUKamaru Usman
Now it's like, maybe like your friends that constantly you talk to, you see their stuff. And so... You know, I'll get on... My daughter's doing something cute or I feel like it's something cool that I wanna share, I- I- I'll get on... I'll post that and then I'll, you know, get off, but... I feel like... And it's even making people more upset because they expected me to feel a certain way that I'm not feeling.
- JRJoe Rogan
How do you know what they expected?
- KUKamaru Usman
Because I s- People make fake pages with my fa- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
It was hilarious to me. It was... This is the funniest shit to me, it was, it was a few... It was maybe a couple hundreds would make a f- create, go out of their way to create a whole page with... 'Cause when I was knocked out, I was like... My eyes were open, which was the craziest thing to me. You know? Now that I wa- I've watched the fight over maybe like 10 times and my eyes were open, which is weird. And so people would like s- screen grab that and make a fake page with that as the, the avatar and have a page dedicated to that. Like, "You got knocked out. You got this. You got..." For them to take time out of their day, I'm like, "Shit, I'm special." Like, I'm- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I... It's... But mostly people that don't have a good life.
- KUKamaru Usman
It's, it's weird to me.
- 32:37 – 41:49
Inside UFC 278: Usman’s memory of the head kick and the technical mistake
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you remember after the head kick?
- KUKamaru Usman
Oh, man. This is, uh... I was dreading talking about this, but, uh... Not in a bad way, but it was... It's funny to me. So, um, the fight is going and there is a zone that I've learned to put myself in and Michael can just kinda attest to this, like, 'cause I do it even in training. Um, there's a way that I train that I, uh, practice to where I- I try to get myself into the zone which is s- is as similar to a fight experience as I can be. And to where I try not to be bothered by anything that's going on. And my body has adjusted and gotten used to this. So in the first round, the fight's going on and boom, that situation happens. He h- he hooked, he hooked my, uh, he hooked my legs and, and I'm... And this was my bad knee. Well, my not so good knee, but... Both of them aren't the greatest, but... So I'm like, "Okay, let me hip him through." So I tried to hip him through, but he just had great position, you know? Kudos to him. And I get taken down. That I probably was more upset about. Giving up that take down, I was like, "Fuck!" (laughs) I gave up a take down. So we get done and he, you know, he tries that, you know, he takes it back and, and I'm just chilling and waiting for the bell. And the bell goes off and I get up. And, uh... And I didn't realize this until I watched the fight back over. I get up and I was... kinda smiled. You know, I get up and I jogged back to my, uh, corner. But I was... I look at it and I- I'm like, "Okay, I know that's where I was at at that time." I was in that zone to where I'm unbothered by whatever is happening. I am going to make this be whatever I want it to be. And so the next round, I just take off and I just start kind of whaling on him and, and... And so by the fifth round, I kinda have him in a spot to where I'm just like... I never think, "Okay, yeah, I've got the fight won. Let me just coast. Let me hold onto him and win." I never think that. I want to... If I can't get the f- If I can get the finish, I'm gonna try to get that finish and I wanna do something spectacular, you know? I'm like, "Okay, we're gonna take a risk here. We're gonna do something great." And I remember, and this is the great thing about Trevor Wittman, in the training camp, we, we work on certain techniques to kind of put them where you want him and, and get him out of there. Like, even in the Masvidal fight, like, everyone, "Oh, the knock out just happened." No, I set him up for the knock out. People didn't realize. I did the same sequence in the first round that I did to finish him and so I start that with Leon, you know? 'Cause I've kinda got Leon in a place now to where I, you know, I could kind of really kinda dictate whatever I wanted to do. And so we get him u- and I get him up and I think Hurt breaks us from the ca- from the cage. So we're, we're moving and I'm trying to set him up and I'm trying to get his feet moving. Uh, I wasn't doing the greatest of job which was... This is all on me and, and I'm trying to get his feet moving. You see me change levels. And what I wanted to do was set him up and I was gonna throw the punches that he couldn't see and I wanted to sit him down and get him out of there. I wanted to throw him with conviction and really get... Like I did with Masvidal and get him out of there.And so, I'm like, "Okay, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna shake left, shake right, and then I'm gonna let him go. But I gotta get him moving first." And I didn't do a great job of that. And so I'm moving, moving, I'm like, "Okay, I got him set up, all right." Which I really didn't. I shake left, I shake right, and I'm sitting in the ambulance, and they're asking me, uh, "Do you know where you're at?" (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) That's what you remember? You remember waking up in the ambulance?
- KUKamaru Usman
(inhales deeply) Yeah, I was awake, but I remember coming to i- in- in- in the ambulance.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you had been awake 'cause you were walking around, but you were still gone.
- KUKamaru Usman
Oh, I was good. Yeah, I was good. I was ta- I- I watched the fight over, I'm good, I was talking, I talked to Trevor, you know, I talked to, you know, everyone, I- I- apparently, I... 'Cause you know, you go back and then you go in the medical tent and they, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
... take care of you and all of that.
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't remember any of that?
- KUKamaru Usman
And they talked to me, I talked to my family, I hugged everyone 'cause it was on video and everything. I remember sitting... It was like, Leon gave me, like, a 20-minute nap. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
Uh, which was... It- it was... I think about... And I- I was laughing hysterically in the, uh, in the hospital 'cause I had to go in just to get scanned and all of that, which everything was fine. So it's like, immediately I come to, I'm in a, I'm in an ambulance, they're asking me, "Do you know where you're..." I'm like, "Yeah, Salt Lake City, UFC 278." They're like, "What's your date of birth?" I'm like... I answer, "5..." You know, and they were like, "Wow, perfect." Like, I answered everything perfectly. They're like, "Oh, we still need to take you to the, to the, um, to the hospital just to get you scanned and everything like that." I was like, "All right, fine." So we go to the hospital to get scanned and everything. But I was already good. I was okay. I wasn't... I was maybe disappointed that I lost, but I wasn't, like, bummed. Like, the first loss that I had in my career, that one, that one fucked with me. That one played me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that because you didn't know whether or not you would ever be able to make it?
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah. I- I... It was the uncertainty of the future.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KUKamaru Usman
And also because there was nothing I could do at that... I- I couldn't defend myself because I didn't have the knowledge of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KUKamaru Usman
That was what hurt me the most, is I'm like... 'Cause when I was in that position, I could have fought it, 'cause I was standing up with the guy a backpack for almost a minute, and I had no idea what to do. And I wanted to go back to the ground and try to fight it, but, um, in my head I said, "Shit, I don't know what I'm doing down there if I go down there anyways. So no, I'm just gonna stay up here until I eventually tap." And... But this one was like, "Okay, I know my mistakes." That's the one thing I've said, I'm very, very honest with myself. I am honest with myself to where I'm like, "Shit, okay, he got me. He got me." You know, I didn't do a good job of what I wanted to do, and he got me. And, and I- I don't like the notion of everyone saying, "Oh, he got lucky, he got..." Yeah, he got lucky, yeah, of course, but luck to me is not what everyone is saying. Luck is when preparation meets opportunity. That's luck to me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
You can't tell me that Leon didn't train that kick. Of course he did. I'm not even a southpaw and I trained that kick. I know he trained that kick, and there's a video out, I- I don't know if that was before the fight or after or whatever that was, but they're like, "Look, there's video of him actually training..." Yeah, of course, you trained that. That's- that's what a well-rounded, uh, the number one contender mixed martial artist in the world should do and they should know how to do. It's, yeah, of course, he trained that. So yeah, he did get lucky. He prepared to be able to land a kick like that. I presented him with the opportunity, and he landed the kick, and here we are. So, you know, I... People are kinda trying to take away from his win, "Oh, he, he did..." No, he, he landed a good kick, you know, and he put me out and now he gets the W.
- JRJoe Rogan
So other than Michael Johnson, that's the first time you've ever been dropped?
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's pretty incredible. What about the Gilbert fight?
- KUKamaru Usman
Well, I mean, the... See, the thing with the Gilbert fight, I wasn't really... You know, he didn't rock me to where I sat down, I was, you know, buzzed.
- JRJoe Rogan
He just thrown you and you had to catch yourself.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah, it was just like, boom, that was a heavy shot. Shit. And I even put my hand down just... And I could see, I knew what was going on, like, he was coming at me and I put my hand down to brace and try to, you know, control the situation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KUKamaru Usman
You know? Yeah, it was a heavy shot. Gilbert hits hard. Let's just say-
- 41:49 – 46:05
The ‘zone’ mindset: emotional control, meditation, and why his father’s return matters
- JRJoe Rogan
You said something about you get yourself into a mind state, a zone where nothing bothers you.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that... Because, like, you do see moments in fights where things don't go a fighter's way and you start to see some frustration, you start to see them, like, lose some of their, their- their-... focus. Like, they kind of get taken out of their game because things aren't going their way and you see things bothering them.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, is that something like ... So, if you recognize that you can put yourself in this very specific state of mind where no matter what happens, you are exactly the same way.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah. That, a- and it took years for me to get to that point. 'Cause, yeah, I'm human.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
You know, I- I get, you know ... Stuff aren't going, is not going your way, you start to, you know, the anxiety starts to build and then-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
... you start to, you know, start doing things uncharacteristic. For me, I've, I've trained over and over and over to try to be as close to that zone as possible. And so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Where you just execute.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah, where I just-
- JRJoe Rogan
No matter what.
- KUKamaru Usman
... I don't care what happen. Like, I kicked his, I think I kicked his, I kicked his elbow and I kicked his shin couple of times. And if you've ever kicked a shin or kicked an ... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It's not funny.
- KUKamaru Usman
It's not f- I'm sitting here with ... I have a huge bump on my shin still, from ... And it's still swelling up, you know. And I didn't care. I didn't even, it didn't even phase me. You know, 'cause I was in that zone and I didn't care whether I got taken out. I don't give a shit if I get beat.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is-
- KUKamaru Usman
For four rounds in 50 minutes. Guess what? I'm still gonna execute. That 10 seconds left, I'm gonna execute what I set out to do.
- JRJoe Rogan
This, this mindset, is this something that ... Have you managed this? Is this something ... Have you written things out? Is it something that you practice? Do you meditate? Like, how do you get yourself into that state?
- KUKamaru Usman
I mean, just years of experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, it's trial and experience thing?
- KUKamaru Usman
Trial and error. Years of experience, trial and error, and all of, all of the above. Like, I, you know, I started meditating. I've grown a lot in the last three years. A lot. A lot has happened to me in the last three years. Whole ton. Life, you know, experiences, you know, relationships-
- JRJoe Rogan
Your father's out of jail now.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah, my father being back.
- JRJoe Rogan
How great is that?
- KUKamaru Usman
That, it's amazing. It's amazing for him to be able to witness now everything that's going on in my life and see it firsthand. You know, that, that, that feels great to me. That's one of the joys of where I am now, which I think has kinda ultimately led me to the point where I am. Because it's ... I see things, I'm, I'm just more, I'm more grateful for, for things. And that b- ... I, I, I th- I see peop- people kind of, like, look at me like an alien because if I'm not upset at certain things that don't go my way or if I don't react a certain way to certain things, people are like, "Oh, well, why? Why aren't you reacting this way? Why aren't you ... You should be more upset. Oh, you're not disappointed? You're not hurt?" No, and especially about this experience. The biggest, I would say the, the most hurtful thing for me is I didn't represent ... Well, it's not that I didn't represent, I did, I didn't get the result for the amount of work that I put in. The amount of work that my coaches put in with me. My coaches-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you did, minus one minute.
- KUKamaru Usman
Exactly, but for me it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
But that's really what it is.
- KUKamaru Usman
For me, is I'm not one of those, "Oh, you kinda execute." No, I wanna execute all the way through.
- 46:05 – 51:35
Family and backlash: daughter’s reaction, Conor’s tweet, and protecting fight-week mindset
- KUKamaru Usman
1000%. 1000%. Everyth- every, like, everything is a lesson for me. Everything. Every experience. Every failed relationship, failed business. All of that is a lesson for me. And I'm s- ... I, uh, a lot, like, I- I got a lot of flag. Like, I- I saw that, um ... Okay, the one moment, I have to be honest, that did hit my heart a little bit was when I was in the hospital with, uh, Ali. We were in the hospital together when I was getting scanned. I was already back. I was, I was watching the video clip of it, and he showed me that 'cause I wanted to see how it happened, and I was like, "Damn, he got me. That was a good shot." You know, I was en- envious of it. Like, I'm like, "Damn, that w- ... He set me up good. That shit was beautiful." You know, it's like, and the form was just nice, you know? Kudos to Leon. And ... But then they ... The camera pans into the audience and they showed my daughter. My daughter cried.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- KUKamaru Usman
And, and she cried. And that, that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Aww.
- KUKamaru Usman
It was like a, it wa- it was the weirdest thing. It was like a instant trigger response, like boom.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- KUKamaru Usman
My heart (laughs) like, I wanted to cry just seeing that for her because as a f- as a parent, as a father, that's one of the worst things, is we couldn't ... And I learned that when my daughter was a, uh, infant, is when they're sick or something's bothering them, you just feel it. It just hits your heart. And then when my daughter was crying, that when it, it, it got to me. I was like, "Oh, shit." I don't, I don't, I don't ... I didn't like seeing that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
And then, you know, Conor, I think Conor had tweeted something and was, it was kinda blasting me about it, like, you know, for bringing her to the fight and this and that. And, and ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- KUKamaru Usman
And, yeah. Like, he tweeted some, some, some mean things or certain things like that. And it was just like ... I'm ... I'll lower people sometimes. But for me, it was like, "Fuck no." Like, they don't, they don't understand it. They don't underst- ... They- they're just in a low level of thinking to where they don't understand, like ...Absolutely, I'm gonna bring her. My daughter's not only gonna see when daddy's victorious and daddy just continues to beat everybody, and, and daddy gets to, you know, put her in, in the best school or whatever she wants to be. No. You know, because I'm in a weird place, like, I'm trying to teach her. She has work ethic, but it's kind of like, "Ugh, I don't wanna do that today," or, "I don't wanna go to gymnastics," or, "I don't wanna do that this week." And, and she's kind of like, doesn't wanna do it. "Oh, I don't like it anymore. I, I wanna quit." You know, and I'm trying to teach her the best way that I can without forcing her to do something, of, of what it takes to h- to work hard. And my daughter has been going to the gym with me ever since she was six months old, so she understands that and she's okay with it. That's why she can watch my fights. But I'm not only gonna bring her because daddy's victorious. I am blessed right now with an opportunity to show my daughter that, look, you can fall down and look how you can get back up. And so, uh, it was f- to see people, like, and someone like Conor, who actually does have children, to, to say something like that, it was like, man, you're missing the mark big time, bro. You're missing it big time, because I am blessed with the... I like how... I am blessed. How often do you get an opportunity like that to where you can give them an example of how it is to rebound at the highest level?
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think about your daughter in the audience while you're fighting at all?
- KUKamaru Usman
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it, when you get to the cage, do you think about the fact that she's there, or are you just completely focused?
- KUKamaru Usman
No, I try to limit my... This is, like, fight week, I got, had to get comfortable with bringing her around fight week, because, and I le- I learned this. The first fight she ever went to was the Tyler Woodley fight. And my daughter, we have this bond to where my daughter wants to be sweet, she's gonna be sweet. She's gonna be on me, she's gonna rub my face and grab me, just be very affectionate. And, and I just felt this overwhelming sense of, no, I, 'cause I had, in the coming weeks, I had built myself into this, this ironclad guy, to this m- mental f- state that I wanna be in to go to war. And with my daughter, she flips the switch on all that. She turns it off.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
And (laughs) and, um, I had, I, I learned that at that fight, like, okay, I gotta limit my, my moments with her, because she softens me up.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KUKamaru Usman
And so when I, when I see her now, it's like moments, I try to really fight that and stay in that place and not spend too much time with her, 'cause she's gonna get affectionate. And I don't wanna make her feel weird for being affectionate, but at the same time, I understand what I am feeling and the mental state that I'm in. So no, by the time I walk into the cage, I'm already that person. When they come and get you from that back room and they say, "All right, it's your time," so I pace back and forth in the backstage before I do the walk, and I'm already, I'm starting to slowly climb into the Nigerian Nightmare when I, when I step inside that cage. So when I'm there, I don't even know, I don't feel, I don't see, I don't hear, I don't care that they're there. I have a task, I have a job to do, and that's what I need to do.
- 51:35 – 1:08:58
Recovery plan and rematch logistics: brain rest, timing, and England/Wembley hype
- JRJoe Rogan
So the fight is over. Time has passed. What do you do now as far as prepare to fight again, and do you go straight to a Leon Edwards rematch?
- KUKamaru Usman
I ... that's a good question. I've never been in this (laughs) situation. So for me, it's, it was always like, all right, well, you know, I get home and I'm home for like two, three days and I start getting bored. And 'cause it's only so much, like I drive her to school, I get her ready in the morning, take her to school. Then I come back home, it's like 8:30 and I'm just like sitting there 'cause I can't go back to sleep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KUKamaru Usman
It's 8:30 in the morning, I'm just sitting there like, "Shit. All right, well, let's go train." And I go, usually go back to the gym and you know, whether it's just hitting the bag or doing something, rolling with George, um, it's something. But now it's, with this fight, the way it ended, they're like, "Hey, don't, you can't train for a certain amount of time." So-
- JRJoe Rogan
You can't hit the bag?
- KUKamaru Usman
Well, they, they don't want me doing anything to, I guess-
- JRJoe Rogan
Upset your brain.
- KUKamaru Usman
... cause vibration or, or-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
... to my brain or anything like that. So I'm just like, "You know what? I, I'm just gonna lay low." Just give it a, 'cause I, it's, I, very rarely do I have a break. Very, very rarely do I have someone say, "Hey, stop. You can't train." Even when I'm in training camp, practice is over, Trevor, as soon as Trevor leaves the room, my mind's already like, "What else can I do today? What else can I do to, to push, to enhance what I've just learned?" And so it's kind of a, it's kind of a relief. It's kind of a change to where I, one time I sat in my movie room for like four hours (laughs) .
- JRJoe Rogan
Just watching?
- KUKamaru Usman
Just, I watched the fight like three times in a row over and over and over, and then watched a movie or something, then I'm waiting, I'm just waiting for my daughter to get out of school and I'm like, "Okay, she's about to be done. All right, let's get ready to go get her." So I'm already bored and I wanna go train. I wanna go do something. I feel completely fine. Like I said, it was almost like Leon gave me a 20-minute nap and I was back.
- JRJoe Rogan
And there was no other repercussions?
- KUKamaru Usman
Nothing. I feel nothing except for the bump on my shin from kicking his elbow, and I feel nothing. So I wanna go back, but the doctors are like saying, which I have to listen because that's suppo- they're supposed, they're supposedly-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KUKamaru Usman
... experts. And they're like, "Yeah, even though you might not feel anything, there might be some bruising back there that you don't know that could cause some type of harm later on." So-
- JRJoe Rogan
So how many weeks?
- KUKamaru Usman
You know, I don't know, a few weeks.
- JRJoe Rogan
Few weeks?
- KUKamaru Usman
Just a few weeks, yeah. But you know, I'm already, you know, thinking about what I can do, push-ups, sit-ups, or do this or that to just stay in shape because I'm, I already feel like, you know, I'm addicted to that burn.... of that workout, the burn of, of physical activity. I'm add- I, I can honestly say I'm an addict to that.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's, I mean, you talk openly about this, so I can bring it up, but it's amazing how well you can fight and how well you can train with your knees the way they are.
- KUKamaru Usman
I just go.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's, it's cr- y- your mental strength in that regard is really extraordinary. Because, like, you've got some fucked up knees.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
But you don't see it when you're fighting.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't notice it at all. You're throwing kicks.
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah.
- 1:08:58 – 1:22:31
Money pitfalls and Miami scams: losing cash, restaurant fraud, and why Florida is ‘sales’ culture
- KUKamaru Usman
Yeah. Golf lessons, I'm starting to, you know, take a little bit of lessons there. And, and even in the business world, I, I've, I've started to kinda dabble a little bit in that. Which that I've, I've been screwed over a couple times.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, really?
- KUKamaru Usman
And like ... Oh, fuck. Like, that's what I'm saying. It's like, it's hard when you're doing something like this, because, um, this has to take a lot of my attention.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KUKamaru Usman
And so, even in the business world, I've, I've been, you know ... I've been got a few times, Joe. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
I was, I've been got, Joe. I mean, I can tell you two quick stories. One, at first I almost got, was got by this, um, some, some girl in Miami, uh, named Lisa. Lisa Anderson or something like that, and she was a, I guess a day trader. And, you know, knew Rashad. So this was right ... I became champion, right off the time with Liz. The first time I really made significant money. And, and everyone you know tells you, "Oh, you got to i- You have to invest. You have to invest. You have to invest."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KUKamaru Usman
I'm like, "Oh, fuck. Okay. I need to start now, you know, to invest something." And, you know, me and Rashad had ... I, I meet with some advisors, and I'm thinking about working with them. And that same day, to that meeting, I, I met with Rashad. Me and Rashad had lunch and Rashad's like, "Oh, yeah, I know this, this girl who does investments and things like that." I was like, "Oh, okay." You know. I didn't know how well he knew her. He was just like, "Oh, I know this girl." And I was like, "Oh, yeah." He's like, "Yeah, you should probably holler at her." You know, so Rashad's always ... That's like big brother. He's always trying to, like, help me out in this way and that way. So finally, I meet the girl, you know. Like, eventually we connect and she's, she's not bad-looking, you know. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That's part of the problem.
- KUKamaru Usman
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That's how they get you.
- KUKamaru Usman
It's not bad-looking, and, and she just, you know, I guess games me up over time. And, and, um ... Make a long story short, she got me out of, like, 55 bands, 55,000.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- KUKamaru Usman
Got me.
- JRJoe Rogan
What di-
- KUKamaru Usman
Haven't seen a dime back.
- JRJoe Rogan
What did she do? How'd she do it?
- KUKamaru Usman
She was a day trader, and we signed this contract where, okay, you invest this amount, and this is the amount of interest that she can incur over time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it in a fund?
- KUKamaru Usman
In a fund, yeah. She had these closed ... These are small funds in, uh, increments of, I think, I think maybe half a million or 300,000. And it had different people in the fund. And whatever, whatever, you know, I don't know what she did. But eventually she, she got me for 55. You know. I tried to reach out to her to, to get the money back, nothing. And then over time ... And then she had messaged me, uh, like maybe a year later, like, "Hey, I'm sorry. I, I lost everything. I wanted to reach out to you and d- blah, blah, blah." I just ... For me, it was just like, "I'm not fucking getting it back." So-
- JRJoe Rogan
So was she just making bad investments or did she swindle it?
- KUKamaru Usman
I have ... I, I have no idea. It's South Florida.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, boy. Fucking South Florida.
- KUKamaru Usman
It's-
- JRJoe Rogan
So crazy.
- KUKamaru Usman
Oh, which leads me to the next one.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KUKamaru Usman
Oh my God. So this guy ... It's like, it's a guy named Pino and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right away, I'm nervous. (laughs)
Episode duration: 2:36:12
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Transcript of episode 4lqLsqkmiRY
