JRE MMA Show #14 with Matt Brown

Joe Rogan sits down with the current UFC Welterweight fighter Matt Brown. http://immortalcombatequipment.co/

Joe RoganhostMatt BrownguestGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)guest

Feb 8, 20182h 53mWatch on YouTube ↗

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150 min read · 30,013 words

0:01 – 1:51
Retirement reversal and the Carlos Condit matchup
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Four, three, two, one. Boom, and we're live. What's up, brother? How are you?
2. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, I'm very, very good.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Thanks for doing this, man. I'm very excited to have you in here.
4. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah. I'm honored to be here, man. I was just thinking about this the other day, actually. I was like, the fucking people that have been on this show, man.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs) Yeah, I think about it sometimes too.
6. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Freaks me out.
8. MBMatt Brown
  Uh, Sam Harris, James Hetfield. Uh, man, I, uh, yeah. I was thinking about all the people, man. I was like, "How do I compete with these guys?"
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Just be Matt Brown.
10. MBMatt Brown
  I know.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  What are you talking about, man?
12. MBMatt Brown
  I know. I mean, I could beat all their asses, but...
13. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
14. MBMatt Brown
  (laughs)
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, in certain situations, that's all that counts. (laughs)
16. MBMatt Brown
  (laughs) The situations that I thrive in. (laughs)
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Exactly. So, uh, you were retired and now you're not. Now you just signed a fight with Carlos Condit?
18. MBMatt Brown
  You got it.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Damn, that's a good fight. I like that.
20. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  I think Carlos needed to fight back too. That fight with Neil Magny, he looked like he was suffering through some ring rust. Looked-
22. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, man.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  ... a little bit timing.
24. MBMatt Brown
  You, you got to... Uh, I've talked to a lot of people about that 'cause that's the first thing that always comes up, right, is how he came back and looked in that fight. And I've trained with Neil a lot, man, and I'll tell you, Neil can shut a fucking game down right away.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
26. MBMatt Brown
  You know?
27. JRJoe Rogan
  He's very good.
28. MBMatt Brown
  It's-
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Very underrated.
30. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, you can't take away from Neil, man.
1:51 – 3:40
Ring rust, fighter archetypes, and choosing violence vs. tactics
1. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, someone was talking to me about this the other day, ring rust, and I was like, "You know, everybody's different, man." Every single person is gonna react a little differently. And I think also when you have someone... Uh, you know how John Danaher was talking about like the different types of fighters, right? The, I think he just grouped three different types of fighters, uh, like a violence guy, a tactical guy, and something else. Well, I think it's gonna, I think there's more types of fighters than what he went through, but there's, um, I think it's gonna affect every single type of person differently, you know?
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
3. MBMatt Brown
  And I fought, like I fought... For instance, like I fought a much more tactical fight against Diego. It wasn't... I mean, you could s- you could easily go in with Diego and just go to fucking war with him, right? I mean, he's-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Killer Melendez style.
5. MBMatt Brown
  Exactly.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
7. MBMatt Brown
  He's totally down for that.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, yeah.
9. MBMatt Brown
  Like that's what Diego is, you know, he will wake right up and go for that, right?
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
11. MBMatt Brown
  I was like, "Man, I'm better than him. Let's just be tactical." And, uh, I think that was part of why it helped. Now that, now I think, uh, someone that, that goes in with a more violent style, uh, which I've done many times in my life, um, I think that's a, a bit more complicated because there's a lot more timing and reaction in that. Whereas the strategy, you have a very clear path to victory, you know exactly what you gotta do. It's just, you're just going in there and just, um, you know, connecting the dots when you get in there.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  And staying on the plan.
13. MBMatt Brown
  Exactly, yeah, yeah.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Now when-
15. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  ... you get a guy like Diego though, that temptation has gotta be always there, right? Because he's so willing.
17. MBMatt Brown
  Well, if, uh, if it's necessary-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  'Cause you love that kinda fighting.
19. MBMatt Brown
  ... yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  I mean, that's one of the reasons why you're so loved.
21. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, there's never-
23. MBMatt Brown
  Thanks.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  ... been a Matt Brown fight ever that's boring. There's a lotta guys that have, because of styles, because of whatever, they've had fights that weren't very crowd pleasing.
25. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  But your style has always been do or die, seek and destroy. That's one of the reasons-
27. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  ... why people love you.
3:40 – 4:28
“Fight to fight”: Pride-era spirit, Bushido, and entertainment vs. winning
1. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah. Well, I mean, that, that just goes back to my mentality of why I'm fighting to start with, right? It, it's not really about just winning. I think that's sort of a Western culture thing, sort of an American thing. Like I, I, I kinda go back to the original pride, and it's like, "Look, just fight, man." You know? "This is a fun thing. This is a, a badass thing we're doing. It's an amazing thing. Go in there and fight, test yourself, the Bushido spirit, things like that." And not, it doesn't have to be just win at all costs, you know?
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
3. MBMatt Brown
  This is, uh, you know... To me, it, it waters down the sport. I mean, that's not what combat is about. So, this, you know, it's not me.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, I mean, that's what makes it interesting is that there are different styles. There's people that have safety first styles-
5. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
4:28 – 7:34
Anger, addiction, and the overdose that changed everything
1. JRJoe Rogan
  ... where they're just fighting to win. And then there's other people like yourself that just, whatever's inside you that comes out. You know, I always say this, like there's certain dudes like, uh, because of your history, because of, uh, I mean, you had an overdose where you literally died. And the same with Court McGee, uh, he had the same situation-
2. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  ... happen to him. I always said that-
4. MBMatt Brown
  I talked to him about it. Yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... dudes that have gone to the other side are fucking terrifying inside (laughs) the cage. There's like, there's, there's a certain thing. I don't know if it's just coincidentally that both of you guys have that mindset, or if s- let's forget about even Court. But you have this mindset, and I've always said, I wonder if there's a correlation between such extreme lows in your life where you bottomed out so hard, literally your body had shut down and you were ready to, you were ready to pass on. The doctor saved you, and you've got a mindset going into that cage that's just, it's just another notch more intense than most people.
6. MBMatt Brown
  Certainly. And that, that's, uh, you know, to be honest, that's something I've sort of struggled with a lot too, because it wasn't actually that specific moment, um, the overdose, that kind of affected me the way it did. It was more, uh, a long-term life of, uh, well, I would say I've just been an angry person, honestly. Like, just since I grew up. So, it was all about channeling that anger. Um...
7. JRJoe Rogan
  A lot of fighters are like that, right?
8. MBMatt Brown
  I think so. I think that's one of the beauties of, of martial arts, right? Uh-
9. JRJoe Rogan
  That helps you channel that?
10. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah. I mean, we all have to find an outlet. Um, I, I didn't discover martial arts, uh, until......what? 22, 23? 21, 22, something like that. And, uh, you know, so before, my outlet was drugs and alcohol. You know, that was my, my way to say, "Fuck everybody," right? And, uh, you know, it just went too far. But, uh, like I said, you know, when it is expressed in the cage, that's more of a, a long-term, uh, thing. Growing up an angry person and then, um... You know, I always give a lot of credit to, uh, Jamey Jasta, Hatebreed, you know, uh, that's who I walk out to nowadays. Uh, it's a dream come true to have a walkout song by them. And, uh, um, that was, like, the first time that I was able to find a positive outlet for that energy. You know, I didn't know what, what heavy metal was growing up, you know what I mean? I, I grew up in a small farm town and, uh, I didn't know what that was, but heavy metal gave me an outlet and Hatebreed was the first one that gave me a positive outlet. Before it was li- it was negative. Pantera, um, Slayer, like, stuff like this. It's all negativity, you know? So this rage is, is coming out in a negative sense and gets expressed through drugs, alcohol, hanging with the wrong people, things like that, and then there's a turning point where I'm like, "Man, this can be a positive thing and I can use this energy directed towards something positive."
7:34 – 9:49
Small-town frustration, feeling like an outsider, and early identity struggles
1. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  What were you angry about growing up?
2. MBMatt Brown
  Ah, good question. (laughs)
3. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  (laughs)
4. MBMatt Brown
  Um, man, that, that goes deep, man, because, uh, you know, I grew up in a very, very, very small town, 200 people population. I didn't see a, a skyscraper until I was... I mean, like, up in person. Like, we drove by it in Dayton, Ohio, which isn't a big town in itself, um, until I was, like, over 18 years old. You know, so I was just... I always felt like there was so much more out there for me, and I was kind of expe- I grew up in a machine shop, my dad was a machinist, so I was doing that from, like, five years old. I was sweeping the fucking floor and I was like, I was like, "Man, this is not what I'm meant to be." Like, "I'm supposed to be something great." But, uh, but everybody around me is like, "No, this is what you do. You live in this little town and you do- you follow the rules. You're gonna be a machinist or a farmer or, uh, you know, whatever." And, uh, you know, that shit pissed me off, you know? And I never really found my niche, and, uh, so I was homeschooled actually for, I think, two years in, uh, junior high. So, I think that was sort of actually the start, because I went back to school and when I went back to school, I was now the outsider. I didn't have any friends, um, and then going up, uh, all of a sudden I'm in high school and I have no friends, I have no, uh, I, I can't get laid for shit. Um-
5. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  (laughs)
6. MBMatt Brown
  I think that's what causes anger-
7. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  (laughs)
8. MBMatt Brown
  ... in a lot of people in the world, right?
9. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Oh, yeah, and depression.
10. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, yeah.
11. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Yeah, that's a big factor.
12. MBMatt Brown
  And, and at the exact same time, I'm starting to experiment with, uh, drugs and alcohol. So you put the two together, you know, um, I was supposed to be, um, the prodigal son, you know what I mean? Like, I was, uh, very intelligent, I was, um... You know, like, I was doing things by the time I was 15 years old in the machine shop that, that guys, you know, they've been working for my father for 10, 15 years couldn't do. You know what I mean? So I was sort of this prodigal son, I was good at athletics and everything, had no problem with all that stuff, so I think, uh, it was just sort of a backlash, you know? And then I let that anger get the best of me.
9:49 – 14:20
Heroin, meth, jail, and realizing addiction in real time
1. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  So now when you were doing drugs and alcohol, what were the drugs? Like, what was the drug that caused you to overdose?
2. MBMatt Brown
  Heroin.
3. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Ooh.
4. MBMatt Brown
  An injection. Yeah.
5. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Damn, that's deep. When you're-
6. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
7. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  ... injecting it, that's, that's when you're all in, baby.
8. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah. And, you know, I didn't actually do it a whole lot.
9. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  (exhales) .
10. MBMatt Brown
  It's kind of the funny thing, a lot of people thought that I was addicted to heroin and I wasn't. That, I think that was probably the fifth time that I did it. Maybe six, something like that. I didn't count, but, um, you know, that was sort of my fu-... That was my step into the dark side.
11. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Mm-hmm.
12. MBMatt Brown
  You know? And it, and a blessing and a curse, man. You know, it immediately, I was like, "Oh, okay, (laughs) that's what can happen," right?
13. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Right.
14. MBMatt Brown
  It's the step back. Uh, and, you know, I was very naive, very, uh... Man, I was a fool, really. Like, 'cause what I did, I remember leaving the, uh, uh, the hospital and I was like, "Okay, well, I'm never doing heroin again, but let's go do some coke." You know? (laughs)
15. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  (laughs)
16. MBMatt Brown
  Right? So I- I was just a dummy, man. And-
17. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Wow. How old were you?
18. MBMatt Brown
  Um, I think I was 21, 22. Uh, one of those, uh... I mean, that was like 15 years ago. There's a lot of stuff I, I... I was actually kind of thinking about it, like, so again, you know, on this podcast, I was like, uh, I was like, you know, this is probably gonna come up on it, it's a pretty, uh, intense story, um, but I was like, "Damn, I can't remember all the details of that shit." (laughs) It was like a long time ago, but anyway, yeah, so I was like 21, 22, and, um, it wasn't too much long later, you know, I lived with this girl and, you know, she was a drug addict too and she had a couple kids and it was like, it was like, "All right, well, now I got a place to live, like, let's get fucked up." (laughs)
19. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Mm-hmm.
20. MBMatt Brown
  You know? And it was... I never did, um, heroin again after that, obviously. Um, I think I did Oxys though. Percocets, stuff like that.
21. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Oxy's basically the same thing, right?
22. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah. Which-
23. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  It's a controlled form.
24. MBMatt Brown
  Which I mean, I didn't realize it at the, at the time, but really my drug of choice was meth back in that day. That was what I really liked. That was actually what I was addicted to at one point, and I ended up going to jail and that was what got me, uh, out of addiction. I didn't realize I was addicted until I was in jail.So-
25. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  What made you realize it when you were in jail?
26. MBMatt Brown
  I just, uh, you know, just couldn't stop thinking about it, and just wanting it, and just... I mean, I didn't get to have like, like, um, like cold sweats or anything. I don't think that happens with uppers, but, um, I mean, I was just, you know, like, like, I couldn't stop thinking about it, man. I was like, "Dude," like, just, a lot of that anger was coming out. I was just like, "God," like, "What the fuck?" Like, I wanted to fight everybody. I was like, "Somebody give me something," you know? And-
27. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Wow.
28. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, it was just, uh, a really terrible experience, but probably only lasted three, four days. Not even... Maybe not even that.
29. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  And then you came out of it? (sniffs)
30. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, I mean, I was just, like, uh, uh, able to accept my fate and, and deal with it.
14:20 – 20:45
Backyard MMA beginnings: drunken VHS techniques and impulsive first fights
1. MBMatt Brown
  Uh, and, and we... Like, uh, w- this particular time in my life, I was living in, uh, a little town called Jamestown, Ohio. And I had this buddy. Um, he was a friend. His cousin, well, his cousin was a fighter, and this was kinda my first, uh, uh, foray into mixed martial arts or first, uh, experience watching it and everything. And, uh, they would train in the grass, in the backyard, you know? We- I remember watching, uh, Ken Shamrock DVDs, or VHS's back then. Um, leg locks. We'd go on the living room floor. Like, just be shit-faced drunk and, and lucky I didn't tear my ACL or anything. We're like, "Oh, this is what he's doing. This is how you do it."
2. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Heel hooks? (laughs)
3. MBMatt Brown
  Just... Yeah, heel hooks and... I mean, I don't remember all the techniques, but I remember it was, like, you know, pankration stuff, right?
4. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Right.
5. MBMatt Brown
  And we'd just be laying there, and it, and it was always a thought of, like, "Dude, this is fucking awesome, man." Like, "I could beat Tank Abbott." Like, "We-"
6. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  (laughs)
7. MBMatt Brown
  (laughs) You know, and we would joke about it, man. We would say... I remember specifically sitting there and being like, like, "Dude," like, you know, "we're gonna get you a fight in, um, you know, the local Joe Schmo Show and then, uh, you know, we're gonna get you up and you're gonna go to a Pride and then you're gonna go to the UFC." And I was like, "Oh, cool. The hell yeah. Let's do it." And that was, you know... It was like a joke, kinda, but that, like, that was what was in my head. That's-
8. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  So that was your first-
9. MBMatt Brown
  That's what we were gonna do.
10. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  ... introduction to martial arts?
11. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
12. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  So what was your first real formal training? Like, what, what gym did you first-
13. MBMatt Brown
  So I fought before I trained.
14. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Get the fuck outta here. (laughs)
15. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah. (laughs)
16. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  (laughs)
17. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, so-
18. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  (laughs)
19. MBMatt Brown
  (laughs) So actually, this, this guy that was... Uh, um, he was supposed to go fight Wes Simms, and, uh, his name was Fat Joe, is what we called him. He was supposed to go fight Wat Simms- um, Fat Simms, Wes Simms that day, and I said, "Yeah, let's go, man. I wanna go with you. I wanna see this shit up close," right? So we go there and, um, I'm, I'm doing a bunch of coke on the way, and you know, to me it's just gonna be a party. Like, I'm just gonna watch my dude fight. I get there and, uh, you know, there's a... He signs up on the table, and I was like, I was like, "Dude, what... Is that how... You know, that's all you gotta do?" He's like, "Yeah." He said, "You just pay 30 bucks and you come fight." I said, "M- man, maybe I should do that." And then-
20. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  (laughs)
21. MBMatt Brown
  ... the, the guy- and I'm, I'm looking inside and I see the, uh, you know, people sitting around smoking cigars. It's like you see on a movie. People smoking cigars, you see bets being made and stuff and, and, uh, the guy goes, "Man, you wanna fight the champion?" Like, "Nobody wants to fight him." And I was like, "Fuck yeah, man. I'll fight him. Are you kidding me?" So I literally went across the street. There's a sporting goods store across the street, or down the street or something. Went and bought a mouthpiece, come back. Uh, there's a restaurant across the street. Boiled the mouthpiece at the restaurant, used their microwave, come back, and then, uh, uh, and then we're at the fighters' meeting. So the fighters' meeting back then was a lot different. So there wasn't weigh-in. It was like, "You and you. You guys look about the same size. Uh, you guys doing kickboxing? Uh, okay, you guys fight." Right? So that's how, the way it worked out. And I'm sitting there and they're like, "Okay, you're the champion. You're fighting him." And I was like, "Oh, shit. All right. Fuck this motherfucker," right?
22. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  (laughs)
23. MBMatt Brown
  And, uh, you know, so I'm sitting
24. NANarrator
  (laughs)
25. MBMatt Brown
  ... meditating this guy. He taught me how to do a jab. He's like, man, he's like, "All you gotta do to beat this guy, just jab him." He's like, "You see this? Just throw this jab." And I was like, "Oh, okay. I'm gonna do that." And, uh, went out there and I beat the guy. So he actually-
26. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  What?
27. MBMatt Brown
  ... quit. Yeah, he actually quit, you know? So he was a tough man champion is what he was. And, uh, I actually threw a jab, punched him in the face, and he went to shoot, uh, on me. I did, you know, a, a playground guillotine choke, and he just quit. I don't think I actually had the choke in. I don't... I highly doubt, you know. But-
28. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  Did he tap?
29. MBMatt Brown
  He tapped out saying that his calf cramped up.
30. GSGuest (Matt Brown’s interviewer-style follow-up / co-conversationalist segment)
  (laughs)
20:45 – 25:50
Getting serious: Sanda confusion, real gyms, and defining himself as a fighter
1. JRJoe Rogan
  So when did you get serious? So you did this-
2. MBMatt Brown
  This was right after that.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  ... you did two events.
4. MBMatt Brown
  'Cause, 'cause, I mean, he beat the shit out of me. Um, I, like, I remember walking out of there and people were looking at me like, "Damn, how'd you survive that bro?" I mean, and, like, people were actually asking me that like, "Dude how'd, uh, you survive that shit?" I'm like, "I don't know."
5. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
6. MBMatt Brown
  Uh, I had to... And I had to go to work that night. I was like working third shift. (laughs)
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, wow.
8. MBMatt Brown
  I had to go to work right after. Everybody was looking at me at work like, "Dude you got like two black eyes?" Like, but anyway, um, that was when I, I, uh, said to myself, you know, "I wanna try this." Uh, and you know, I think, uh, you know, this is, uh, uh, something I really enjoy and I wanna go for it. Um, so I met this guy, um, uh, his name was Eli Ayers, and he was fighting in King of the Cage, one of the toughest guys I've ever met, and then a guy, Braden Workman. And, uh, they were training for... It was a big show there in Columbus, um, I can't remember the name of the show but I think like Lawler fought on it, like a bunch of Miletich guys, Tim Sylvia. You know the name if I say it, I can't remember. But anyway, um, yeah, and then, you know, then I really got the shit kicked out of me when I got in the gym. You know, then I realized like, you know, what a real beating was. And, uh, yeah just went from there man, 'cause I, I, I just said I never looked back and I, I thought, "Man, you know, I wanna change my life." You know, I'm, I'm... You know, I wasn't never actually a, uh, the type of person that, that fit in with the drug user scene, right?
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
10. MBMatt Brown
  Like that wasn't me. It was just, uh, again, an expression of anger and these things that, um, you know, in my childhood just kind of, you know, came out the wrong way, right? So it wasn't really, uh, like I fit in there.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
12. MBMatt Brown
  Um, so at this point like I'm, I'm really not fitting in anywhere and this was a, uh, a quote that I remember where it said, uh, "Stop trying to find yourself and start to define yourself." And, and I felt like the whole time I was trying to find myself. And I said, "You know, I'm, uh, I'm gonna define who the fuck I am. I'm gonna say this is what I am and this is what I do. I'm a fighter. Fuck it. Let's go. It's do or die." Um, I've, I've been to jail, I've been dead, I've been, you know, uh, I've slept in, on, in the fucking snow. You know what I mean? Like I've been homeless. Like I've done every low thing you can do. Like what's the worst that could happen? I get knocked out? There's nothing. So, uh, you know, I decided, uh, you know, this is my path and I'm gonna carve the path. I'm not gonna search for a path. I'm gonna make the path and I'm not gonna look back and I'm going to the top of that mountain. And, uh, and that's something I still talk about today when I talk to people, is about, uh, I didn't have any idea how I was gonna do it but I knew why I was gonna do it and I knew that I was gonna do it. And I think, um, in my own personal struggles, and I think in a lot of people's struggles they kinda get caught up in the how. You know, "How am I gonna do this? How am I gonna win this fight?" Whatever. And I think when you n- understand your why, I, I think the how becomes a lot more, um...
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Clear?
14. MBMatt Brown
  Clear, yeah. More clear and easier. I mean, it doesn't matter anymore. You could... It's better to do it 100% wrong than 50% right.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  I think there's a balance to doing things and it's highlighted by what you just s- what you just said. There's a balance and it's a lot of what we were talking about earlier about, uh, Joel Jameson versus Louis Simmons-
16. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  ... versus, uh, like someone who's, like, super technical versus someone who's just a fucking mad dog and just wants you to just go out and do it and don't be a pussy.
18. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Your, your mindset that allowed you to take that fight with no training and then take another fight after that with no training and then take another fight after that with no ta- t- just this mindset of "Fuck it, let's just do this."
20. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that... Y- there's a balance between that and then you realizing, "Okay. I gotta really learn how to do this. If I'm gonna really be a fighter, I'm gonna be- really be a- uh, really define myself, and I'll really go out and make a mark, I gotta learn what the fuck I'm doing."
22. MBMatt Brown
  Exactly.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  There's both things there, but that's that balance, like you need both things. You know? I mean, th- it's-
24. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  ... you have to have a certain amount of "fuck it" in you.
26. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  You know? You have to have a certain amou- for a sport... I mean, is it even called an MMA, a sport? It always seemed to me to be l- it's too... (sighs) It's too defining. It's, or- or too, uh, it's, it's too limited. It's not... Uh, fighting is more than a sport. It's an expression of what you're capable of.
28. MBMatt Brown
  Absolutely.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  It's your, y- who you are as a human.
30. MBMatt Brown
  And that's where, uh, one distinction I've made over the years is the difference between martial skills and martial arts. Everything, everybody always calls everything, encompasses it into a martial art. And when we go to the gym and we're training arm bars, do 100 arm bars, that's not an art. That's not your expression of your body in a combat scenario.
25:50 – 29:02
Ultimate Fighter memories, ‘they stole your chi,’ and weaponizing pressure
1. JRJoe Rogan
  That's a very interesting way of putting it. How many years after you initially started seriously training were you on The Ultimate Fighter?
2. MBMatt Brown
  Uh, four or five.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Ha. I remember when you were on The Ultimate Fighter and they stole your chi.
4. MBMatt Brown
  (laughs)
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Somebody fucked with your chi.
6. MBMatt Brown
  It's what everybody remembers, yeah.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, I remember that because I remember, like, there's some dudes that... There's some guys that play tough guy, and there's some guys that put on a show and puff up their chest and say some shit that they might not necessarily mean.
8. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  And then there's some guys that say some shit and you go, "Uh-oh. This dude's fucking serious." (laughs)
10. MBMatt Brown
  (laughs)
11. JRJoe Rogan
  And I remember when they fucked with your chi (laughs) , with your chi. I remember watching that and going, "This motherfucker's serious." I'm like-
12. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  ... "Matt Brown's not a joker." And then when you fought Matt Arroyo, that was, uh, another example of it. I'm like, there's... Skill-wise, I'm like, Matt Arroyo's a very talented guy, and still is. Good jujitsu guy, good fighter. But there was something... That was a battle of minds-
14. MBMatt Brown
  I agree.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and your mind-
16. MBMatt Brown
  And I don't know if you knew that I fought him before that, too.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, I did.
18. MBMatt Brown
  Right?
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
20. MBMatt Brown
  And, but the first time I fought... And this is why it was such a, a no-brainer to take the fight. Uh, I fought him the first time on 24 hours notice, so I w- I wasn't even... I wasn't training then. I was training a girl, and, uh, she was going to Florida to fight. And when I got there, we're driving to the weigh-ins, and the promoter, I heard him talking on the phone, and he go... And I heard him say, you know, "Oh, we don't have an opponent for him." Uh, so I said, "Hey," you know, "what do you need an opponent for?" And he's like, "Well, this guy, Matt Arroyo, y- you know, 170." And I said, "Dude, I'll fight. Like, how, how much will you pay me?" And they're like, "Uh, 400, 500 bucks." I was like, "Dude, that'd pay my rent. Fuck yeah, I'll do it." And, um, yeah, so... And I said, you know, "I can't make weight because I got, like, one hour." And, uh-
21. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
22. MBMatt Brown
  ... you know, he said, he said, "It's cool," and fought him on 24 hours notice and beat him, so he wanted redemption for that.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. There w- th- that fight was in- you, y- one of the things about, like, watching you fight as someone who's seen a lot of people fight, there's, there's moments in exchanges where after the exchange, a guy will try to take a break, or a guy will try to catch his breath or move pace. And-
24. MBMatt Brown
  The obligatory break-
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
26. MBMatt Brown
  ... is what I call it. Yeah.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  There's little breaks, and then there's guys who recognize those breaks and push in.
28. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  And you're a guy who pushes in.
30. MBMatt Brown
  Absolutely.
29:02 – 35:40
Training the mind: obsession, sports psychology, meditation, and float tanks
1. MBMatt Brown
  And I think one of the, the things that, um, I talk about a lot that... You see, I don't think that I was necessarily born this way. This is where I think a lot of people get confused. I mean, I was certainly born with an inclination towards, uh, uh, fighting. I wouldn't be where I'm at w- without that, but, you know, um, I work a lot on my mind. I do a lot of stuff. I've always been obsessed with martial arts and, and combat, a- as a whole. And I hear other people say they're obsessed. Like, like, Conor, you know, made it really famous when he started saying it, right? I think my obsession goes far, far beyond what anybody's even, even close to. I don't think their, their, uh, definition of obsession even, uh, even, uh, is comparable to mine at all. I mean, I'm, I'm far more obsessed. I've, I've read probably... I got a library of sports psychology books, of, of strength and conditioning books, of, uh, martial arts books, all this stuff. Um, I mean, it's literally on my mind 24 hours a day. But one of the things I really focus on is the, the sports psychology part and I think that is why it's expressed that way in the fight. Um, and you hear a lot of people, they'll say... You hear... How l- how often have you heard, like, "Man, you know, my mind's already strong. Like, I ain't scared when I walk in there." Or, or stupid shit like that.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
3. MBMatt Brown
  And, and I always say-... you know, do you think Michael Jordan stopped practicing layups? Do you think Jordan Burroughs stopped practicing double legs? Do you think that Arnold Schwarzenegger stopped doing bicep curls? Uh, because it's good doesn't mean that you stop-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Can't be improved upon. Right.
5. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah. It can be improved upon, and you don't stop, so. And I think the mind is one of those things that, um, can always be better. Like, we're not tapping into... I mean, what are we tapping into, like, 10% of our brains at, at best?
6. JRJoe Rogan
  That's all bullshit.
7. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah?
8. JRJoe Rogan
  No, that's, yeah, that's bullshit. Yeah. They used to think that.
9. MBMatt Brown
  Oh, fuck.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  They used to think that. It's-
11. MBMatt Brown
  (laughs)
12. JRJoe Rogan
  They used to s- th- that's something they say, but, uh, the reality is, uh, your brain has a bunch of different quadrants for all sorts of different functions.
13. MBMatt Brown
  Okay.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  So when, you know, you're utilizing a certain portion of your brain, that's the portion of your brain that's responsible for those actions.
15. MBMatt Brown
  Okay.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. There's not-
17. MBMatt Brown
  Either way our, our-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  We don't know-
19. MBMatt Brown
  ... minds are certainly far more unlimited and far more potential than we're tapping into, right? Yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, I think your mind is a lot like your body, and y- it performs and it does what you ask of it.
21. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  And if you just are a lazy bitch who doesn't do anything but sit around and watch TV, and you don't ever challenge your mind, I think your mind is weak, and it atrophies.
23. MBMatt Brown
  Absolutely.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
25. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, and- and- and-
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Now, when you say that you, you have all these books, and you say that you work on your mind, like, do you have a, a daily practice that you do? Do you meditate? Like what are you doing?
27. MBMatt Brown
  Um, I meditate. Um, you know, daily is sort of a, uh, I, I hate saying I do it daily 'cause, you know, I skip days.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
29. MBMatt Brown
  And, and I mean, I have three kids, which you know how that goes.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
35:40 – 40:36
Learning frameworks and elite grapplers: Musashi, Waitzkin, and jiu-jitsu culture
1. MBMatt Brown
  Have you read the Book of Musashi?
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Yeah, I read that.
3. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  You put it on your Instagram the other day.
5. MBMatt Brown
  I just put it up the other day. Yeah.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. I read that, and I read the Book of Five Rings when I was 16, changed my life.
7. MBMatt Brown
  Nice. Nice. That's the one that Louie will... If you work for Louie, all of his staff, you're forced-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Louis Simons.
9. MBMatt Brown
  ... to read it. Yeah.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Beautiful.
11. MBMatt Brown
  Louis Simons. You have to read it.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Dude, once you understand-
13. MBMatt Brown
  And he talks about it all the time.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  ... the way broadly, you can see it in all things.
15. MBMatt Brown
  Yes.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  I remember reading that when I was 16, and I was like, "Ah, I get it."
17. MBMatt Brown
  Yes.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  I was like, you, when you, when you can get great at something, you can get great at anything.
19. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  It's the same thing, whether it's playing the piano or writing books or fighting or anything. It's the same thing. It's all about-
21. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  ... figuring it out, understanding the way.
23. MBMatt Brown
  And that's, uh...... the book, The Art of Learning. Have you read this one?
24. JRJoe Rogan
  No.
25. MBMatt Brown
  Josh Waitzkin? You know who he is?
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, yeah. The chess prodigy-
27. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that was a black belt under, uh-
29. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  ... Marcelo Garcia.
40:36 – 44:06
Fighter wear-and-tear: surgeries, ligament damage, and hidden injuries
1. MBMatt Brown
  I've only had one surgery in my life. I've only went under... Well, I've went under twice now, so I guess-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Which have you done?
3. MBMatt Brown
  Um, the... Actually, so twice. Yeah, the first one, I had torn ligament right here.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, I re- I remember that.
5. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Like you were, you were talking about that... That was fucking with you for a long time, right?
7. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, probably about a year I fought like that. Um-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  But you couldn't totally make a fist, right?
9. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, it was like this kinda, so I was like frogging people. (laughs)
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Ian McCall's still like that.
11. MBMatt Brown
  For real?
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Ian McCall's broke his hand so much that his right hand, one of his knuckles, like his pinky or his, uh, pointer finger, it never curls past that.
13. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm. Yeah, well this wasn't broken. The bones were all intact, but the ligament there was completely torn.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  So what'd they have to do?
15. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah. Um, they just went in. They... There was an incision there and just reattached the ligament. And I came back probably four months later, si- five months later maybe. That's when they were telling me, "You'll be fine," and everything. And you know, it took probably a year before it was actually okay.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
17. MBMatt Brown
  It's just-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Chris Weidman's going through some shit like that right now. He fucked his thumb up in the Kelvin Gastelum fight-
19. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and then had to get a ligament from his wrist-
21. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  ... taken out and then attached to his thumb 'cause his thumb ligament-
23. MBMatt Brown
  Interesting.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  ... ligament was torn and he still can't fully train. Still can't grip-
25. MBMatt Brown
  Really?
26. JRJoe Rogan
  ... or fully punch. Yeah. He's waiting.
27. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, yeah, mine they didn't have to do none of that. But they, they said once they open it up, there was a lot more stuff in there they had to take out and a lot more that was ripped that they didn't even realize was there. You know how it is with the-
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Of course.
29. MBMatt Brown
  ... MRIs, yeah.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, with fighters, like so many guys have shit wrong, they don't even know. Like did you ever see-
44:06 – 54:29
PEDs, USADA, and the ethics of ‘greatest of all time’ debates
1. JRJoe Rogan
  I think he's the greatest ever performance-wise. We were talking about performance-wise earlier before the podcast started-
2. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  ... versus, like, we were talking about Cain Velasquez. Performance-wise, like, the, the actual results versus what you think about their ability. You know? I think Cain-
4. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... when he was at the top... I never saw anybody like Cain when he was in his prime. 240 pounds, un-fucking-godly cardio, would just never stop coming at you.
6. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Excellent striking technique-
8. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, yeah.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  ... could take a tremendous shot.
10. MBMatt Brown
  My thing, my thing, my whole thing with it though, is as soon as you test positive once-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
12. MBMatt Brown
  ... I, I take you out of the Greatest, period.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
14. MBMatt Brown
  It's just against the rules. I'm not even against steroids. Like, take steroids, you know, if, if it's your endocrinologist tells you to take steroids, go fucking do it. Good. Good for you. But in our sport, unfortunately, it's against the rules, so there's only a certain amount of people doing it. So if you're doing it, you're cheating.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
16. MBMatt Brown
  And...
17. JRJoe Rogan
  But do you think Jon was taking steroids?
18. MBMatt Brown
  I don't know.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  I don't think he w-
20. MBMatt Brown
  But h- he...
21. JRJoe Rogan
  I don't think he was.
22. MBMatt Brown
  But to be honest, um, it doesn't matter-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
24. MBMatt Brown
  ... to me. I mean, you know, I've said this for a long time, I think it should be a lifetime ban, first offense.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
26. MBMatt Brown
  Period. Yeah. And there's gonna be martyrs. There would be guys, like I don't think Tim Means was taking steroids. (laughs) Like-
27. JRJoe Rogan
  He wasn't.
28. MBMatt Brown
  ... he certainly did not look like it and-
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, they proved it.
30. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
54:29 – 1:01:03
Russia’s state-sponsored doping and nostalgia for Pride-era mega-fights
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And, you know, with, uh, the kind of cheating that they've been doing in Russia, you know, did you see that movie Icarus?
2. MBMatt Brown
  No. No, it's on Netflix, right?
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. You got-
4. MBMatt Brown
  I know what you're talking about. I wanna see it.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  It's fucking crazy.
6. MBMatt Brown
  I just watch so little TV. I just miss everything.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
8. MBMatt Brown
  Every, every day someone, "Did you see this on Netflix?" "Nah, I planned it on. It's on my queue."
9. JRJoe Rogan
  It'll make you-
10. MBMatt Brown
  It's on the list. (laughs)
11. JRJoe Rogan
  It'll make you, it'll make you curious and mad at the same time.
12. MBMatt Brown
  Really? What's it about?
13. JRJoe Rogan
  'Cause they had a state-sponsored, state-sponsored doping program. Russia had-
14. MBMatt Brown
  Oh, yeah. I think it's pretty well-known, right?
15. JRJoe Rogan
  ... all their athletes cheating. Yeah, but this was proven.
16. MBMatt Brown
  So, okay. So they, they dig deep into it.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  'Cause the guy who was doing it- the guy who was doing it-
18. MBMatt Brown
  Ah.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  ... is in this documentary and he was helping this guy, Bryan Fogel, do a bike race. What Bryan Fogel did was he did a bike race with nothing, and then he wanted to get juiced up and see what the difference is, uh, with the next year, do the same race, but do it on everything.
20. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  And so he contacted this Russian guy who was the head of anti-doping in Russia. Well, this guy along the way, from doping up Bryan Fogel, they all got busted. And when they got busted, not Bryan Fogel, the, the Olympics-
22. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  ... in, in Russia, the, um, they had s- the Sochi Olympics, they found out that people had tamp- uh, tampered with samples and a bunch of shit started to come out about it, and then it became this gigantic scandal. He fled Russia, came to the United States, and testified, and told everything that he did.
24. MBMatt Brown
  Fuck.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  They opened up these supposedly unopenable sample jars and replaced the bad urine with clean urine. They had frozen urine, and then they had a hole in the wall where they were passing urine-
26. MBMatt Brown
  (laughs) Oh, man.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  ... back and forth and p- replacing the old stuff with clean stuff.
28. MBMatt Brown
  Was this specific to a s- a certain, a specific sport?
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, every sport-
30. MBMatt Brown
  No, all sports.
1:01:03 – 1:15:44
Muay Thai obsession, why it hasn’t exploded in the U.S., and respect in fight media
1. MBMatt Brown
  I just watch Muay Thai fights all day. That's, like, my favorite thing to do.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, do you?
3. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, I just love-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Did you see Saenchai's latest?
5. MBMatt Brown
  Uh, the question mark kick?
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Did you see that... Yeah.
7. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Woo, dude.
9. MBMatt Brown
  Where he got... Pulled up his shorts right after-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. (laughs)
11. MBMatt Brown
  ... he did it too. (laughs) This guy, man. I love him.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  He's wild, man. He's-
13. MBMatt Brown
  I love him.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Saenchai is so interesting to me because he's different than any other Thai fighter in his movements.
15. MBMatt Brown
  Absolutely.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  He's so light on his feet-
17. MBMatt Brown
  Mm-hmm.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and constantly switching stances, and he's just-
19. MBMatt Brown
  He's the Floyd Mayweather of Muay Thai.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, man.
21. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, yeah. That's a guy I'm gonna try to get out here for... You know, like, what I'm doing with MusclePharm is some things... Like, uh, try to help them build a team and everything, and he's one of the guys I wanna get out for a seminar and kinda be a, a, you know, affiliate with him.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Please let me know.
23. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, I will, man.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  If you have... I wanna meet that guy.
25. MBMatt Brown
  Yeah, I really wanna get him 'cause it's not just the, uh, you know, the way that he fights in the ring, but the way that he trains, man.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
27. MBMatt Brown
  Like, he... I mean, he trains hard.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Hard.
29. MBMatt Brown
  You know? You watch these-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:53:38

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Retirement reversal and the Carlos Condit matchup

Ring rust, fighter archetypes, and choosing violence vs. tactics

“Fight to fight”: Pride-era spirit, Bushido, and entertainment vs. winning

Anger, addiction, and the overdose that changed everything

Small-town frustration, feeling like an outsider, and early identity struggles

Heroin, meth, jail, and realizing addiction in real time

Backyard MMA beginnings: drunken VHS techniques and impulsive first fights

Getting serious: Sanda confusion, real gyms, and defining himself as a fighter

Ultimate Fighter memories, ‘they stole your chi,’ and weaponizing pressure

Training the mind: obsession, sports psychology, meditation, and float tanks

Learning frameworks and elite grapplers: Musashi, Waitzkin, and jiu-jitsu culture

Fighter wear-and-tear: surgeries, ligament damage, and hidden injuries

PEDs, USADA, and the ethics of ‘greatest of all time’ debates

Russia’s state-sponsored doping and nostalgia for Pride-era mega-fights

Muay Thai obsession, why it hasn’t exploded in the U.S., and respect in fight media

Get more out of YouTube videos.