JRE MMA Show #146 with Francis Ngannou

1. 0:00 – 1:12

   Ngannou’s Tyson Fury fight gets made: why it was a huge gamble

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) What's up, champ? How are you?

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou0:15

      I'm good. You?

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Good to see you.

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou0:16

      Good to see you again.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      So you have, uh, been on a journey, my friend. A lot of things have happened. First of all, congratulations on securing this fight. That is a big deal. A lot of people doubted it was gonna happen. You were right.

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou0:30

      Uh, thank you, thank you. Yes, it was a big deal. It wasn't easy. Um, but we finally get it, you know. I get a, um, a help of a lot of people, and the Saudi were very, were very interested about this fight.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:45

      Yeah, it was one of those fights where you had to take a big gamble by relinquishing your UFC crown and leaving-

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou0:52

       I didn't relinquish anything.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:53

       You didn't relinquish it?

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou0:54

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       What ti- well, fill me in then. Tell me what happened.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou0:58

       Well, we didn't come to an agreement.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       You didn't come to an agreement?

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       So you decided, "I'm not signing with the UFC." You're a free agent.

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou1:05

       Yes.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       And then, did neg- negotiations then start for the Tyson Fury fight? How did it s- how did it start?

2. 1:12 – 3:55

   Why boxing negotiations are ‘a different animal’ than MMA

   1. FNFrancis Ngannou1:12

      Um, you know, it's been like four years since Tyson Fury and I were being, uh, going back and forth on social media. So, there was a little bit of a warm up somewhere there, and, uh, it- it kind of, like, take a couple months before we get to- to a conversation. You know, it wasn't just easy. Those boxing promotion, the boxing world is a little wild.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:37

      Yeah, it's a little different.

   3. FNFrancis Ngannou1:38

      Yeah, uh, yeah, i- it's d- completely different. It's a different animal.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:41

      In what way? Like, explain to us.

   5. FNFrancis Ngannou1:44

      The way that they- they do things, you know, uh, it's, uh, this guy from this promotion fighting with this guy, against this guy from this promotion, who has a better position, who has what to lose, who is getting what. And then, how them, kind of, like put things, I will not say manipulate, but little bit like that. Everybody trying to adjust thing on his own benefit.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:08

      Mm-hmm.

   7. FNFrancis Ngannou2:08

      Look what is good for him, which is good. But, uh, yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:12

      A lot of boxing fights don't get made.

   9. FNFrancis Ngannou2:15

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:15

       They get talked about for a long time, like Tyson Fury and Usyk. For a long time, was Terence Crawford and Errol Spence. They get talked about for a long time and they almost get made, and then they don't get made, and they almost get made, and then they don't get made.

   11. FNFrancis Ngannou2:29

       A lot of politics behind.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:31

       Yeah.

   13. FNFrancis Ngannou2:31

       There are a lot of promotion that, uh, will be behind the fight just to, you know, push their position.

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:38

       Yeah.

   15. FNFrancis Ngannou2:38

       Everybody's pushing his position. It's not ma- it's not mostly about the fight. It's about, like, "Okay, what we- we control the game. Do we have enough control here? Do we control everything as..."

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:53

       Yeah.

   17. FNFrancis Ngannou2:53

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:53

       So, was it frustrating for you? Because I imagine there was a while where you weren't sure whether or not it was going to be made.

   19. FNFrancis Ngannou3:00

       Uh, it wasn't frustrating. You know, um, before I made my- I- I made my decision, uh, uh, when I separated with the UFC. And I knew, I mean, long time before, like I remember even when I fought Serhian, uh, before, even before that fight, I t- I was telling myself and I was even telling this on interview, like, "Okay, if this is the end, then he has to end my way." You know? So, um, not because I was sure that is gonna happen. I knew that he could've not happened, right? But I was, I was to be in peace with my decision. So that's, uh, that's the thing about it, and I'm very, uh, happy that it happened. Makes it even better. But I knew there was a risk that he didn't happen, but I had to take a chance.

3. 3:55 – 7:16

   The UFC relationship deteriorates after the first Stipe fight

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:55

      So, what was the holdup with the UFC? Like, what- what- what led you to not sign?

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou4:03

      There was a lot of frustration over the years. I think since my fight against, uh, Stipe, my first fight against Stipe, uh, my relation with the UFC never been the same.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:15

      Really?

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou4:16

      Uh, yeah, I never-

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:17

      Why? In what way?

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou4:18

      I don't know. We try, I try everything. I wasn't, I w- I didn't, I wasn't, uh, in the r- I feel like I wasn't in the right place. And at- so after that, uh, then I get the, uh, Derrick Lewis fight, who was like the worst fight, and that didn't help me at all, you know. So, I was so- I think from that moment, I was already put in some position out there because I came back, I won, uh, I won multiple fight and they came with a new deal. This was after Junior dos Santos back in June 2017. And then, they, uh, he was, um, make phonecall for a new deal and then until my team was on the way to the negotiation, uh, who was in Anaheim when Stipe and, uh, DC was fighting the second time. And then, they're all like, "No." Then they say, "No, no new deal for Francis. He has, he ha- he still have three fight on his contract." And to be honest, I was even happy because I wanted to knock that deal out. By that time, I understood a little bit about the market. I just wanted to find out my contract and renegotiate as free, you know? But then month after, we get a call from, I think was Hunter or somebody there, here. They say, "Oh, yeah, let's negot- let's talk about a new deal for Francis." And at that time, I'm like, "There's not a new deal." Um, we are like, "We just want to fight, you know? It's already September or..."... year we, we are in September and, uh, my last fight was in June. I won a fight, you know, so the new deal stuff be holding me back. They didn't give me a fight. So-

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:21

      Because they wanted you to sign a new deal.

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou6:22

      ... they wanted me to fight-

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:23

      And you didn't want to sign a new deal.

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou6:24

       I don't want a new-

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:24

       You wanted to fight your contract down and renegotiate.

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou6:26

       I wanted to fight my contract down. So-

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:28

       So they were slowing things down.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou6:30

       They were slowing thing down. So that, if you see like the interval between my Junior dos Santos fight and Jairzinho Rozenstruik fight was almost a year.

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:39

       Mm-hmm.

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou6:40

       I mean, I view-

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:41

       It's also COVID, right?

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou6:42

       Yeah. It, there wa- there was the COVID in between. But without COVID, it would still be like 10 months. Right? And then from Junior, from Rozenstruik to Stipe, same thing. Then Stipe to Ciryl Gane, almost the same thing. It was mostly about the contract.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:59

       So then finally you fight out the contract, and then what happens?

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou7:05

       We didn't come to a agreement at all because during this time there was still a negotiation pushing and stuff, and I wanted to fight out that contract.

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:15

       Mm.

4. 7:16 – 9:23

   Contract pressure, inactivity, and financial stress during prime years

   1. FNFrancis Ngannou7:16

      Proposal of money, obviously they know my p- position because I was pressure financially. You know when you have a fight you expect to fight at least s- at that level, at that moment I was expecting to fight at least two or three time a year. Right? Then I get to the point that I have a wi- I have one fight. I have nothing. So I was, uh, limited of income, stuff like that.

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:41

      Mm.

   3. FNFrancis Ngannou7:41

      Then I started borrow money. Even before the Stipe fight, when they announced that fight, I need to call to ask for a advance of my purse to finance my training camp. I have no money.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:54

      Mm.

   5. FNFrancis Ngannou7:55

      But I was, I was there training and getting ready for almost a year, uh, so I took some advance. So-

   6. JRJoe Rogan8:03

      That's gotta be very stressful.

   7. FNFrancis Ngannou8:06

      Yeah. But one thing, and that's like one thing that I'm always grateful about my life, I used to this situation and I tell myself like, "These people, they don't know me." I can live out of nothing. You know I live in the str-

   8. JRJoe Rogan8:21

      Well, what, what you did-

   9. FNFrancis Ngannou8:21

      ... I live in the street, bro. Like-

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:23

       Yeah.

   11. FNFrancis Ngannou8:23

       And then I'm here in Las Vegas. You think like, "Okay, I don't fight." I just have to change everything. I'm able to live out of the best, bare minimum. And I don't care if I walk around you guys say, "Oh, oh, champ. Oh, that's a UFC contender," whatever it is. Man, I just live base of what is in my, uh, base of my asset. I don't live beyond that. That's why like I don't really trust those credit card system or those loan and stuff. That's America shit, bro.

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:56

       (laughs)

   13. FNFrancis Ngannou8:57

       I don't, I don't trust that. Because when it let you down, it let you down.

   14. JRJoe Rogan9:01

       Yeah, for sure.

   15. FNFrancis Ngannou9:02

       I check my, I check my, uh, wallet. Whatever is in my, uh, wallet, I live based on that.

   16. JRJoe Rogan9:08

       Mm-hmm.

   17. FNFrancis Ngannou9:08

       I don't go loan and stuff unless like I'm forced at some point or I'm, it's an investment like having taken in money, borrowing money for your training camp, you know?

   18. JRJoe Rogan9:20

       Right.

   19. FNFrancis Ngannou9:20

       That's a different, different thing.

5. 9:23 – 14:59

   After beating Ciryl Gane: trust issues, contract demands, and UFC ‘extensions’

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:23

      So you win the Ciryl Gane fight, then what happens?

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou9:28

      Well, then, um, first dinner didn't come to the ring, to the octagon for the belt.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:36

      Mm.

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou9:36

      Yeah. And then after that they get this, this dinner, uh, invite us to this dinner trying to smooth things out. Again, the condition at that time, I think at that time for me it was more than a contract. It was like a lot of frustration from the past almost three years. You know, um, like, okay, I have no guarantee that signing this contract I will not get into what, uh, I was, I have been through in the past three years. So however we change something that will make me feel secure.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:14

      And what did you want changed?

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou10:19

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:19

      (laughs)

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou10:19

      A lot of things. I want in my contra- first of all, I want a contract without extension because I have seen how they can abuse of those extension.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:30

      Can you explain to me how the extension works?

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou10:31

       Oh, well, I mean, there's not a r- a way that it works. The extension is that, um, because they say if the, if you re- deny a fight they can extend you for six month or something if you are hurt and can't fight, they can extend you for six months or something. But the problem, the UFC is the judge and the party. They decide if they will extend you. You have no say. So when they say, "Oh, you fight tomorrow," you say, "Uh, uh, n- no, I w-" Now I'm like, "Okay, no problem. We were just checking." And then maybe a week after you will receive a letter of extension, like your contract has been extended for six months.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:20

       Oh.

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou11:20

       And that's what happened with me, uh, when I-

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:22

       Even if you're injured? Like say if they propose a fight for you, like here we are in September.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou11:26

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:27

       If they propose a fight for you in Madison Square Garden in November and you say, "I can't 'cause I'm injured."

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou11:32

       Oh, no, that extension for sure.

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:34

       Then they put up a six-month extension on your contract.

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou11:36

       Oh, yeah. That's extension. That's-

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:37

       Anytime you refuse a fight, is that what it is?

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou11:40

       Ye- yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:40

       Mm.

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou11:42

       And refuse is subjective.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:45

       Right.

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou11:45

       Depend of the term of suggestion.

   25. JRJoe Rogan11:47

       It could mean you can't fight because you're injured like when you tore your knee ligaments.

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou11:51

       Oh, no.

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:52

       Like-

   28. FNFrancis Ngannou11:52

       That is a extension.

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:53

       Extension?

   30. FNFrancis Ngannou11:54

       Yeah.
6. 14:59 – 22:30

   Boxing rights, sponsorship conflicts, and the ‘sunset clause’ strategy

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:59

      Okay. What was the- was one of them the ability to box?

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou15:03

      One of them was the ability to box. They say that wasn't an option. Boxing is dead, it's not possible, this and that. (slaps leg)

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:13

      Now what does that feel like to you knowing that Conor McGregor did it and fought Floyd Mayweather and made $100 million? What is that like for you to be sitting there being told that you can't box?

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou15:25

      Well, uh, I don't used to ... I don't used to take what people tell me for an answer.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:34

      Hmm.

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou15:35

      Right?

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:36

      Right.

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou15:36

      I used to do my own thing-

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:38

      Right.

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou15:39

       ... on my, in my, on my own way.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       Right.

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou15:41

       And it seems to work pretty good, so. But I wasn't going to force to change everything. I wasn't expecting to go there and demand this, demand that-

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:51

       Right.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou15:51

       ... and just have everything. You know? It's like, it's a big company, it's like an institution.

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:57

       Right.

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou15:57

       You know? So, there is a way that they do thing-

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:00

       Right.

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou16:00

       ... and that can change. So I'm like, "Okay, if that's, if so, let's take boxing out." Why? Because give me three fight, contract of three fight. I was- I knew that I can knock a three fight contract in a year. Then from that moment, I was free, because I want, I want a middle ground, like a alternative, a way to get out by giving something out.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:26

       Mm-hmm.

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou16:26

       You know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       Right.

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou16:27

       Just to get something at the end.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:29

       Got it.

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou16:29

       You know? Because it's really hard to get in the negotiation and just like, "Oh, I want this, I want that, I want that."

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:36

       Right.

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou16:36

       And stop there. At some point, you have to compromise to push back, give something in order to get something.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       Yeah.

   28. FNFrancis Ngannou16:44

       So, stuff like that, um, was the thing that I was about it. And, um, that seems to be attractive to them. So one, uh, three fight deal, no extension, that seems to be attractive. Two fight was supposed to be potentially Jon Jones fight and rematch, and one fight is the trilogy with Stipe.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:09

       Hmm.

   30. FNFrancis Ngannou17:10

       That was their request, and work for both party. Then, um, we get to, (laughs) we get to another point, sponsorship deal. Why a sponsorship deal? Because, um, before that, I had a deal. After the Stipe fight, I have- I had a, a deal on the table for over $1 million for a cryptocurrency wallet. So, I was going to have, like, I think 1.2 million, which is the money that I didn't, I never had in, in the fight. I was going to have that in a sponsorship, and the deal was this close to sign. And then they announced the Crypto.com deal.
7. 22:30 – 28:53

   Final breakdown with the UFC: pay structure, ‘back pay’ promises, and walking away

   1. JRJoe Rogan22:30

      ... you get through all this, and then where did it break down to the point where you had to walk away?

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou22:36

      It break down, um... December 6th, I think it was December... no, December 20... (sighs) Uh, I don't remember. It's 20... 19 or 22nd, something like that. I had a dinner with Hunter. After we been going through stuff, he said no to this, no to that, you know. But I have a focus, I know that, "Okay, if I give three fight here, since they are willing to take the three fight, it's gonna make..." You know, I don't wanna break this relationship like this. I don't want it to be a war.

   3. JRJoe Rogan23:17

      Right.

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou23:17

      I can't stand- (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan23:19

      (laughs)

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou23:21

      I can't stand in this. But (smacks lips) so we can get trying to fix things up, but when we met again, uh, that day was the first time over all this time that we have to talk about the financial aspect. I mean, he has to propose a financial aspect.

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:42

      Right, so he proposed it at dinner?

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou23:44

      Yeah, he proposed at dinner. And then I just like, "This guy is making fun of me."

   9. JRJoe Rogan23:51

      Making fun of you?

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou23:52

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan23:53

       So it was disrespectful? It was, like, not valuable enough for you?

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou23:58

       N- not at all.

   13. JRJoe Rogan23:59

       Hmm.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou24:00

       I mean-

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:00

       And you're the champ at the time?

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou24:01

       Yeah, I mean, not at all. Like, when you're talking about pay-per-view, then you're negotiating pay-per-view, and then you see number like 1.25 pay-bys and stuff like that, and the pay-per-view is going-... from six, from $60 to $80 in the past five years, and you realize that the two p- one, the two, there is 0.25 that is on top of it, is just out of the $20 that been added on, I'm like, "Come on, man." It's not my first pay-per-view contract and...

   17. JRJoe Rogan24:46

       Just wasn't enough money.

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou24:48

       Wa- it wasn't even about the, the money. Even how it was structured, even how it was, I'm like, "This doesn't make sense." You know? I, I went home, and I was so, I don't know, frustrated or disappointed. I don't know how I can describe, but one thing I know, I went online, I'm like, "I'm missing Christmas with my family. I'm here training for a potential tr- Jon Jones fight, which might not happen. What for? Seems like we're not getting anywhere close." I book a flight that night-

   19. JRJoe Rogan25:26

       Hmm.

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou25:26

       ... to go to Cameroon. And I was in Cameroon in the Christmas, and then couple days after, I receive a text from Mick, Mick Manor, who was, you know ... Mick usually sometime just send me a friendly text to check on me. And then we talk a little bit, and then he talk about the, the contract, like he, he heard that we didn't come to a term. I say, "Yes." He say like, "Is it anything that I can do?" I'm like, "I don't think so. We didn't just have a, an agreement." And, um, he said, "How about I make it, we, we talk again. Let's get in a meeting with Hunter again and talk." And, uh, as I said, Mick always been nice, and I couldn't say no. I'm like, "Yes. Let's try." In fact, I wish it could've worked, you know. Because, to be honest, I never like really, before all this, I never imagined a life out of the UFC. I thought it would be like my fighting platform until my retirement or something-

   21. JRJoe Rogan26:44

       Mm-hmm.

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou26:44

       ... but, uh, clearly things have changed along the way.

   23. JRJoe Rogan26:48

       So, even when they came back a second time, it still was not enough.

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou26:55

       Yeah. Because when they came back, and, um, all this time that, that we've been talking, they've been talking about the, um, uh, how th- what is the term? Back pay. "Yeah, we're gonna back pay you from..." Because e- from all the fight that I've been refu- uh, refusing to renegotiate-

   25. JRJoe Rogan27:19

       Mm-hmm.

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou27:19

       ... uh, the pay that they were proposing, they say they're gonna back pay me that. When they come out now, and then make pay better, and now I'm like, "Okay, the back pay and this and that." And I'm like, "No, no, everything is in this contract. This is it. This is it." And now I'm like, "Okay." Well, then I don't know what to say if you say, "This is it," because you're, it's against your word. You say something, and now you say, "This is it." I still don't have the back pay, bro.

   27. JRJoe Rogan27:52

       So they proposed the back pay, and then they took it away?

   28. FNFrancis Ngannou27:55

       No, yeah, they'd been proposing the back pay before.

   29. JRJoe Rogan27:58

       Mm-hmm.

   30. FNFrancis Ngannou27:59

       E- after the, um, Syrie fight, they get, they, uh, invite us to a dinner, and then keep remind me how they gonna back pay me-
8. 28:53 – 33:08

   Life after UFC: offers arrive, PFL stands out, and boxing becomes the priority

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:53

      Ugh. Okay. So, at that point do you start to talk to people like the PFL and-

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou28:59

      No.

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:59

      ... the NFC and ... No?

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou29:01

      No. At that point, I stopped. Uh, I didn't do anything. When we stopped at convention, I didn't do anything until like, um, I started to see all these things on social media, and then I saw they did- uh, they did a press c- uh, press conference, and like, "Oh, we get rid of Francis. Uh, yes, he's not getting any younger. He's injured." I'm like, "Yes, he's not getting any younger, but you were trying to have him. He's injured, but you were trying to have him. Now you didn't come to an agreement, you're batching him." That's when I started to respond, because I never really like want this like to be something on me. And I was expecting like maybe they go out there and just say, "Oh, unfortunately, we didn't come to agreement," and this and that, and, "Thank you. Good luck." Right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan29:55

      Mm-hmm.

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou29:56

      And then we, we move away. But that's not how they do thing over there.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:03

      So, you decide to start talking to other people then?

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou30:07

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:08

      And who do you talk to first?

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou30:11

       Um, people started to reach out. I wasn't even the one, uh, talking to people. And, you know, at that time, I just wanna let this weight drop out of my shoulder. For some reason, I feel relieved.... I feel relieved. There was so much pressure into that process, you know. And I was in Cameroon. I'm like, "Man, just live your life," you know?

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:36

       Mm-hmm.

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou30:37

       Whatever is yours out there will come to you. Like, but I get, um, uh, the first person that reached out was Pete Murray from PFL. And then, I was just like, "Yes, let's hear him out." And he came out, we speak, he asked like what I'm looking for and stuff. We speak, I'm like, "Ah, looks good." A couple of days after, he made a proposal. I look... I mean, I didn't even ask for not anything, but when he make a proposal, I look at the structure of that proposal. I'm like, "This is good." You know, everything was ta- being taken consideration, you know. Obviously, there's always, there's always gonna be a way of, to negotiate in the contract, but the way that they structured it, I was already happy. I'm like, "I think this guy is trying to make me happy."

   13. JRJoe Rogan31:43

       Yeah.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou31:43

       Right?

   15. JRJoe Rogan31:43

       Well, they need someone like you.

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou31:45

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan31:45

       PFL doesn't really have the big stars.

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou31:48

       Yeah. So, but we keep that contra- and at that time, I'm like, "Let's wait. I'm not rushing to anything. Take some times and everything." And then, we-

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:59

       So, you didn't sign that yet?

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou32:00

       No, I didn't sign.

   21. JRJoe Rogan32:02

       No.

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou32:02

       We also get to a Chatri. Even Chatri reach out. We talk, same thing, and then couple of days, (laughs) they send their own contract. But when I was put in that contract next to the PFL one, it was day and night.

   23. JRJoe Rogan32:22

       The PFL was much better?

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou32:23

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan32:24

       Okay.

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou32:25

       In the-

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:26

       And did PFL, uh, put a clause in to allow you to box?

   28. FNFrancis Ngannou32:30

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:30

       Yeah.

   30. FNFrancis Ngannou32:30

       N- no. Boxing was, was first for me. Right?
9. 33:08 – 39:30

   From Wilder talks to Fury being ‘legit’: how the fight was finalized

   1. JRJoe Rogan33:08

      And I know there were some conversations with you fighting, there was Deontay Wilder they talked about. I think they talked about Dillian Whyte. Who, who was-

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou33:17

      No. He, he was, he was... Deontay Wilder. We definitely... We had a d- a conversation with Deontay Wilder, uh, team, even with him, uh, I personally like was on the of, of, uh, meeting with him, conference with him, that we were talking about a potential to fight there.

   3. JRJoe Rogan33:36

      Mm-hmm.

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou33:37

      So, and that was, that was going well. And I think even to this day, we, we are kind of like open about it. It's just, uh, along the way, he has the, he has the potential opportunity right away that they say, "Okay, we would have liked to push you," the conversation about, uh, what we have here. And he was... For us, he was understandable. I'm like, "Okay, then let's explore maybe after." And then right after that, I have my own w- I started a conversation with, um, with, um, for the Fury fight. Yeah. Because I get a call, I was dri- I was driving to... Yeah, I was driving to the airport, and then I get a call to meet in New York for, for some conversation about the Fury fight. And then when I get in New York, um, next week, we scheduled that on next week, I get in New York. We get to the room and meet the people. It was the right people. We spoke. I, I heard them, I hear them out, and I'm like... I, I knew them, right? And I'm like, "Okay, this is legit." I think with these people behind, this fight is going to happen. That's where I now put them in contact with my team to negotiate, because they wanted me do everything. "Let's negotiate, let's..." I'm like, "Uh, I don't do negotiation." I, I listen, I talk about, like, how I would like things to go, but I don't like to negotiate personally.

   5. JRJoe Rogan35:27

      Right. Of course.

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou35:27

      Like, "Oh, I want this, I deserve this, I'm that." You know? I rather have somebody do that on my behalf.

   7. JRJoe Rogan35:34

      Right. Somebody do that on your behalf and you want to respond to a good deal.

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou35:38

      To a good deal.

   9. JRJoe Rogan35:38

      You want a good deal brought to you.

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou35:39

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan35:39

       Okay.

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou35:40

       I want somebody... It's always good to have somebody in the mirror that would take the temper of both party.

   13. JRJoe Rogan35:46

       Right.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou35:46

       Because a deal can fall off just of because, uh, somebody's mad at this, and then, like, his ego take over, and the deal is off, right?

   15. JRJoe Rogan35:56

       Right.

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou35:57

       But when there's somebody in, in between, and he always come to like, okay, it's, it's not him.

   17. JRJoe Rogan36:05

       Right.

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou36:05

       And he has to think about it. And that's what's happened. Because sometime, with my team, there was, there, they was frustrated, and I'm like, "Oh, no, this is not working." And then they will come to you and then you will talk nice. You know, "Be a nice cop, have no problem." I'm like, "No, but my team is saying this because of-"

   19. JRJoe Rogan36:25

       Okay.

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou36:25

       "... They didn't mean to offend you, you know?"

   21. JRJoe Rogan36:27

       Mm-hmm.

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou36:28

       "But I think, you know... (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan36:30

       Got it. Frustrating, right?

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou36:31

       Yeah. I mean, no, not frustrating. I mean-

   25. JRJoe Rogan36:34

       Complicated.

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou36:35

       Yeah. Oh, but over the time, you learn, you understand how it works and it's pretty easy.

   27. JRJoe Rogan36:40

       Okay.

   28. FNFrancis Ngannou36:40

       It's pretty easy.

   29. JRJoe Rogan36:42

       So, you're in the driver's seat now because you left the UFC. You have, uh, all these opportunities on the table, possibly Deontay Wilder, then it becomes Tyson Fury. So when do you know that that fight is actually going to take place? Because I know there was a-

   30. FNFrancis Ngannou36:58

       June.
10. 39:30 – 47:14

    Terms, training shift, and health: 10 rounds, family access, knee recovery

    1. JRJoe Rogan39:30

       Ooh. Okay. So, so June, you get the Tyson Fury bout negotiated. Did you get everything you want? Was it easy?

    2. FNFrancis Ngannou39:38

       Um, again, you don't work in a room for a contract to get everything that you want.

    3. JRJoe Rogan39:43

       Right.

    4. FNFrancis Ngannou39:44

       And at that moment, I was just so happy, happy to get that fight happen because-

    5. JRJoe Rogan39:49

       Mm-hmm.

    6. FNFrancis Ngannou39:49

       ... from that fight, a lot of thing w- will be open. That fight will open a lot of door. You know, sometime, uh, even in the negotiation, sometime you have to see long-term, like what it comes with.

    7. JRJoe Rogan40:05

       Mm-hmm.

    8. FNFrancis Ngannou40:07

       Now, I get this fight. I think it's... It should have be the, it should have be the focus, right?

    9. JRJoe Rogan40:14

       Mm-hmm.

    10. FNFrancis Ngannou40:15

        After this fight, imagine, hypothetically, I go out there and knock Tyson Fury out. What do you think will happen for me now? Where does that leave me?

    11. JRJoe Rogan40:24

        If you knock Tyson Fury out, you're the biggest combat sports star in the world.

    12. FNFrancis Ngannou40:29

        Okay.

    13. JRJoe Rogan40:30

        That's what I think.

    14. FNFrancis Ngannou40:31

        So is that everything that you would want?

    15. JRJoe Rogan40:33

        You want the cash.

    16. FNFrancis Ngannou40:34

        (laughs) Of course.

    17. JRJoe Rogan40:36

        You gotta get the cash.

    18. FNFrancis Ngannou40:37

        Then you will get everything. (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan40:39

        Yeah. You gotta get the cash. Well, if you knock Tyson Fury out, the real money is in a rematch.

    20. FNFrancis Ngannou40:42

        Exactly.

    21. JRJoe Rogan40:43

        That's the real money. That's crazy money.

    22. FNFrancis Ngannou40:47

        That's what, uh-

    23. JRJoe Rogan40:47

        Are they giving you crazy money for the Tyson Fury fight?

    24. FNFrancis Ngannou40:49

        That's what, that's what... Huh?

    25. JRJoe Rogan40:50

        Are they giving you crazy money for the Tyson Fury fight?

    26. FNFrancis Ngannou40:53

        Yeah. They're giving me a good money. Uh-

    27. JRJoe Rogan40:56

        Yeah.

    28. FNFrancis Ngannou40:56

        ... and very great condition. I, I like, I like a lot of component. And again, a lot, like a lot of component of this contract was, like, uh, the, the thing, the treatment that they were giving me, the access, how easy they make stuff for me, you know. Like, it's gonna be the first time that my family gonna attend to my fight, and I don't even have to think about it.

    29. JRJoe Rogan41:22

        Mm-hmm.

    30. FNFrancis Ngannou41:22

        They're gonna work on it. They're gonna figure out how to bring my mom, my sister, my brother out to Saudi to watch that fight.
11. 47:14 – 1:23:57

    Building a boxing camp: coaches, sparring, peaking, and boxing-specific wear-and-tear

    1. JRJoe Rogan47:14

       Wow. And so, y- Tyson agrees to be in your corner. And did... Who are you training with mostly for boxing?

    2. FNFrancis Ngannou47:23

       I'm training, um, I'm training with Dewey. I also get-

    3. JRJoe Rogan47:27

       Dewey Cooper?

    4. FNFrancis Ngannou47:27

       Dewey Cooper. Yeah. Um, I also get this, um, this guy from France named, uh, Jean Bumba that, uh, I used to work with him, work my... train my boxing with him. He's a young, uh, very young guy, you know? But I like his style, the way that he... his approach and stuff. And I really have a good connection with him. So WhatsApp, uh, I reach out. I mean, even before the fight, I was working with him, taking mi- taking him in Cameron, get some training already. And then when the fight get announced, I talk with him, then I brought him out. So he's in Vegas with me.

    5. JRJoe Rogan48:09

       And so you started your journey in martial arts, you initially wanted to be a boxer?

    6. FNFrancis Ngannou48:14

       Yes.

    7. JRJoe Rogan48:15

       And then when you went to an MMA gym, they convinced you to fight-

    8. FNFrancis Ngannou48:18

       Oh, oh, oh, when I went to France.

    9. JRJoe Rogan48:19

       Right.

    10. FNFrancis Ngannou48:20

        Yeah. No, he was even in a boxing gym that convinced me to be a MMA fighter.

    11. JRJoe Rogan48:24

        For real?

    12. FNFrancis Ngannou48:25

        A guy from a boxing gym named Didier Camon, the first boxing gym that I get into. But he was also a martial artist himself, h- himself. And, uh, he said, "Bro, I think you have a very good potential. Uh...... and I think your best outcome now regarding your situation, because I was still homeless at the time, I think your best outcome would be MMA. If you ... That's ... I'm like, "What's MMA?"

    13. JRJoe Rogan48:55

        (laughs)

    14. FNFrancis Ngannou48:55

        He started to explain to me like, "You know, come ..." I'm like, "Ah, okay. That sport that they do in the cage?" He say, "Yes." I'm like, "Ah, I have seen it." He, he said, "If you train some, uh, rest, takedown defense and jujitsu." "What is jujitsu?"

    15. JRJoe Rogan49:12

        (laughs)

    16. FNFrancis Ngannou49:12

        Started to explain, "I think you're gonna be a UFC champion one day." "What is UFC?"

    17. JRJoe Rogan49:17

        And how old were you when this was happening?

    18. FNFrancis Ngannou49:19

        Yeah. 27.

    19. JRJoe Rogan49:20

        (laughs)

    20. FNFrancis Ngannou49:20

        That was in 2013.

    21. JRJoe Rogan49:22

        It's so crazy that you-

    22. FNFrancis Ngannou49:23

        June 2013.

    23. JRJoe Rogan49:24

        People don't understand that you started this journey as an MMA fighter so late in your life, in, compared to most.

    24. FNFrancis Ngannou49:32

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan49:32

        Like a lot of these guys, they're training when they're 14, 15 years old, they're in MMA gyms and having amateur fights.

    26. FNFrancis Ngannou49:39

        Yeah. And I forced, I forced my way into MMA, and that's why, like, there was a lot of thing that I didn't understand properly, I didn't learn as a, uh, athlete growing up. And, uh, until I get to Stipe fight, the first Stipe fight. Man, that Stipe fight taught me a lot. (laughs)

    27. JRJoe Rogan49:56

        (laughs)

    28. FNFrancis Ngannou49:56

        About combat sport.

    29. JRJoe Rogan49:57

        Yeah.

    30. FNFrancis Ngannou49:58

        After that fight, I was at the press conference and telling people, like, "I think I have learned more in this fight because ..." Here I have been, what? Almost just four years, four years and half since I've been doing ... Bel- not even four years and a half since I've been doing MMA-
12. 1:23:57 – 1:31:40

    Fight mindset and tactics: ring craft, clinch ‘dirty boxing,’ and glove controversy

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:23:57

       So, without giving away too much of your strategy, how do you envision this fight taking place? Like, what ... You've never boxed a heavyweight like him before, but you obviously have tremendous skills and power. What ... How do you envision this fight taking place?

    2. FNFrancis Ngannou1:24:15

       Well, it's very hard to envision, you know. Um, sometime I just visualize the fight, me there in the ring. I suppose I gonna be the blue corner, being there waiting for him to get in the ring. He know all this. He knows all the sides of the ring. He's been there. He know all the corner, how to move, how to cut, everything. And I gonna be there figure out how to cut the ring, you know. It's really hard. I think I just gonna focus on, like, being composed, you know. Don't think about too much stuff. And again, I would like the knockout, but, you know, Tyso- Tyson is very slicky and, uh-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:25:04

       Yeah.

    4. FNFrancis Ngannou1:25:04

       ... you can't go like, you wanna knock him out. So, I'm preparing in the way that this fight can go all the way to tenth round.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:25:14

       Mm.

    6. FNFrancis Ngannou1:25:14

       Yeah. Which is a, a disadvantage for me. I never fought boxing at that level, you know. So, managing my energy, how I gonna be feeling with all the pressure and the adrenaline, how it gonna be.... like, in the 10 rounds, you know.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:25:34

       Mm-hmm.

    8. FNFrancis Ngannou1:25:35

       So how can I maximize it the most is, is about that. It's a lot of... I visualize it a lot and think about it, trying to be there that night waiting for him. See him come, do his show-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:25:51

       Mm.

    10. FNFrancis Ngannou1:25:51

        ... you know, get there. Trying to do his slick stuff, you know, weigh me down, slick dirty boxing, come close. Trying to lean on my head because he is taller than me. (laughs)

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:26:07

        (laughs)

    12. FNFrancis Ngannou1:26:09

        But I think, yeah... But I think I can, uh, I can handle that dirty, dirty boxing properly because usually, like, box- boxing guy, I have seen a lot in sparring and since everybody wanna do the same thing like Tyson, like, trying to make- prepare you for that. There's still those wrestling trick that you can get into. Sometime I like- I'm like, go under the shoulder-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:26:37

        Mm.

    14. FNFrancis Ngannou1:26:37

        ... and step in their back.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:26:39

        Right.

    16. FNFrancis Ngannou1:26:39

        T- yeah. Which is something that boxer, they don't do, they don't know. So, yeah, and that I don't have to worry about that still.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:26:49

        Are you going to have, like, I know that when Sugar Ray Leonard made his comeback, one of the things that he did was he had actual fights, like, to prepare himself so he didn't have any ring rust. He would have actual fights in the gym with, like, regulation-sized gloves, no head gear, 10 rounds, 12 rounds, whatever it was. He would have actual fights.

    18. FNFrancis Ngannou1:27:10

        I think we had that a lot of time.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:27:12

        Yeah.

    20. FNFrancis Ngannou1:27:12

        I mean, we fight MMA with four-ounce gloves.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:27:15

        Right.

    22. FNFrancis Ngannou1:27:15

        Right? And we don't fight with head gear. (laughs)

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:27:18

        Right, right.

    24. FNFrancis Ngannou1:27:20

        With kicks and everything, uh, so I'm not worried about that. And we used to spar... When you're a MMA fighter, they don't spar boxing with a protection-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:27:31

        Right.

    26. FNFrancis Ngannou1:27:32

        ... with the head gear and stuff.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:27:33

        Right.

    28. FNFrancis Ngannou1:27:33

        They just go in the gym. They don't worry the size of their gloves.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:27:37

        Right.

    30. FNFrancis Ngannou1:27:38

        But boxing guys, they come to the gym, everything is checked, like, what's the size of the gloves? The check, the head gears, the this, the cup, and all the stuff.

Episode duration: 1:58:53