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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

JRE MMA Show #158 with Tank Abbott

Joe sits down with David “Tank” Abbott, a retired professional mixed martial artist, former pro wrestler, and pioneer in the world of combat sports. www.ufc.com/athlete/tank-abbott

Joe RoganhostDavid “Tank” Abbottguest
Jun 6, 20242h 11mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:14

    Show cold open and reunion vibes: Rogan reconnects with an early UFC icon

    1. JR

      (drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

    2. NA

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) Yeah. All right. What's happening, baby? Good to see you.

  2. 0:14 – 1:20

    “One of the originals”: Tank’s legacy and why his style made him a star

    1. DA

      Oh, likewise. It's been a long road for both of us.

    2. JR

      It has been a long road, man.

    3. DA

      Yes.

    4. JR

      I- I think I first met you in 1997.

    5. DA

      Hmm, I don't know the dates, but-

    6. JR

      (laughs)

    7. DA

      ... I- I remember meeting you officially, or in my memory, in New Orleans or somewhere around there, um, when I was sitting, like, in an auditorium and you came in and sat down next to me. And at that time, uh, people used to bother me all the time.

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. DA

      And so I was getting some fresh air and, uh, away from everyone, and, uh, you came up and sat down and I was, in my head I was like, "Oh no, I just want some peace."

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. DA

      And, uh, you rolled up and you were totally cool and I was like, "Oh that guy's cool." And we had a good session rapping.

    12. JR

      Yeah, I remember first meeting y- y- you know, when you talk about like the early days of the UFC, like you- you are one of the real original legends of MMA.

    13. DA

      Mm-hmm.

  3. 1:20 – 2:12

    The gloves story: inventing early MMA hand protection out of necessity

    1. JR

      I mean, you were one of the very first guys, and you were one of the very first guys... First of all, you're one of the very first guys, if not the first, to wear gloves.

    2. DA

      Hmm.

    3. JR

      Which I always thought was very smart. I know Vitor I think was one of the first?

    4. DA

      No.

    5. JR

      Who was the very first? Was it you?

    6. DA

      I don't know, but the- the people out there in, uh, the, uh, internet world say this Melton Bowen guy. He was a striker/boxer kinda guy in the early UFCs. I did not get the idea from him at all. And who was the other guy with the one glove, boxing glove?

    7. JR

      Oh yeah, he just died recently. Damn it.

    8. DA

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      I forgot his name. Goddamn it.

    10. DA

      It was back in the days with, uh, Fred Edish.

    11. JR

      Art Jimmerson, Art Jimmerson.

    12. DA

      Yes.

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. DA

      And, and-

    15. JR

      Fred Edish, that's right.

    16. DA

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      Fred Edish.

    18. DA

      With, and Harold Howard and all those guys kicking.

    19. JR

      Yes.

  4. 2:12 – 7:04

    No-rules era details: groin shots, hair pulling, and Tank ‘introducing’ fish-hooking

    1. DA

      And, um, at the time I had just gotten outta jail for, uh, beating up a cop's son, and they kinda... He used his position to, um, his dad, uh, make things go the way for the prosecution even though he deserved to get beat up and I obliged him. But, uh, I was going back and forth from a halfway house to work from the guy that got me into the show, and, uh, we stopped off at a, um, like a Dick's Sporting Goods store, big box sporting goods store like that. I don't think it was Dick's, but it was something like that, and they were bag gloves and I- I put 'em on and I go, "These would be perfect." But they had a post in 'em so you couldn't really wrestle with 'em, and I was like, "Hmm, I could take the post out." I ended up cutting it off and it was just a clear plastic thick tube that you could hold onto, so I got rid of that and I go, "These are perfect." And, uh, I think they were Harbinger gloves and, uh, I knew 'cause I'd been in hundreds of street fights, altercations, that's where I come from, a- although I've wrestled since I was eight years old, but, uh, I used to beat people up on the street that (laughs) -

    2. JR

      That deserved it.

    3. DA

      Yeah, absolutely.

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. DA

      There's not one guy out there that di- didn't want do the same thing to me. I was just better at it. Um, so I knew my hands would get hurt and, uh, I'm like, "You can't fight three times in one night without your hands getting busted up." So I cut those out and I go, "These are perfect. I can wrestle in 'em." As I said, I'd wrestled my whole life and, uh, they were perfect.

    6. JR

      Did you have hand wraps on?

    7. DA

      No, no hand wraps.

    8. JR

      Just the gloves?

    9. DA

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      Yeah. Do you w- wrap your wrists or anything?

    11. DA

      No.

    12. JR

      Nothing?

    13. DA

      Mm-mm.

    14. JR

      And what was the law back then? What were the- the rules rather? What were the rules in for... What- w- what- you were allowed to wear wrestling shoes.

    15. DA

      Right.

    16. JR

      You were allowed to hit the nuts back then.

    17. DA

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      In your- your first fights, you were allowed to pull hair, hit the nuts.

    19. DA

      You could do anything.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. DA

      There- there wasn't, there... 'Til I came along. And, uh...

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. DA

      Anyways, uh, they, um, you just couldn't- I can't even tell you what you couldn't do, but, um, that- you couldn't bite and you couldn't eye gouge.

    24. JR

      Yeah.

    25. DA

      Those were the only two rules.

    26. JR

      And I think fish hooking, right?

    27. DA

      No, that was me.

    28. JR

      Oh really? You started f- (laughs)

    29. DA

      Yeah. (laughs) . I introduced, uh, them to fish hooking.

    30. JR

      (laughs)

  5. 7:04 – 12:32

    Fighting injured and “stacked cards”: the Foroso/Bolander switch and tournament manipulation claims

    1. JR

      (laughs) Did you have any, like, injuries during your career?

    2. DA

      Oh, sure. I mean, when ... I fought when I needed knee surgery against Foroso. Um, I couldn't run, I couldn't do anything, and, uh, I ended up, uh, taking the fight. I told him that I didn't wanna fight. And then, um, back in those days they had ways of stacking the cards against you, and, uh, so the owner of the show at that time says, "Hey, show up. You got a small g-" or, "You have a boxer your first fight, so that's not gonna be a big deal." And he goes, "Then you got a little guy, like a 200 pound guy that was from Shamrock's camp." Um, what is it, Bolander?

    3. JR

      Jerry Bolander.

    4. DA

      Yeah, yeah. "And you can fight him and he's nothing 'cause he's like, uh, you know, 200 pounds. You can throw him around like a rag doll." And I'm like, "Okay." You know, he's talking me into it, realizing he's just trying to sell his show and get it over. And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah." Well, I'm never one to say no to a fight and, um, so I said, "Okay, you talked me into it. I'll show up." But I couldn't, I couldn't run, I couldn't do anything and, like, jog. One time around the track, a 400, I c- I couldn't do it. So I go and take, uh, the boxer, make short work of him and ... 'Cause boxing is good if you're gonna box and stand up in a ring, but you're not gonna go anywhere in a fight w- just with boxing as a skill. It might help you, uh, throw a punch and that kinda thing, but if your main plan of attack is boxing, you're gonna get taken down. And you can't box from your back. Um, so, anyways, back to the show. I take short work of him and I'm like, all right, so I got this little 90 pounder, 190 pounder, and, um, make short work of him. And I think I was supposed to fight Mark Coleman at that time and I was like, "Oh, well, we'll just, we'll just see who's tougher and not get taken down and we'll just, uh, throw, uh, punches." And he's not really, uh, at that time, uh, very skilled on his feet, so I had, uh, at least a fighter's chance at the whole deal. And so, you know, you had these, like, dressing rooms that are screened off and there's a, an opponent. Or not an opponent, um, alternate. Big guy going crazy, m- making all this noise. He sounded like a, an elephant, uh, running around in a cage. "Gah! Gah!" And ...

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. DA

      I'm going, "What the hell is that guy doing?" I go, "He's not even fighting. He's just a, an alternate." Well, it turns out it comes for us to go in with Bolander, and what happens? Oh, he pulls out. Why'd he pull out? Oh, he just, oh, he couldn't make it. And I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa," and I just fell off the turnip truck. And, uh, next thing I know I'm fighting this 300 pound plus guy who's all jacked up on god knows what.

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. DA

      And, uh, going, "Ah!" Crazy on-

    9. JR

      Who was it?

    10. DA

      Foroso.

    11. JR

      Oh.

    12. DA

      So I went out there and this is at the advent of, of, uh, referees. And I, I don't care about winning or losing, never have. I'm always down for the fight and, uh, the battle of fighting, and, um, getting bloody, sweaty, getting punched and punching people, man. That's what it's all about for me. And, um, so I'm like, "Oh, well, I'll get in there," and we banged it out and they had three refs and they gave him the fight. I've had people said, "If you really watch it, you won that fight." Don't care. They, they suckered me in with a little guy and then they throw in 100, 350 pound dude. Ended up r- kinda ruining the show, uh, 'cause Coleman didn't have anybody to fight, so he went out with Randleman and did like a wrestling expedition, exhibition, and, uh-... it was like, "Why did you do that? You didn't have to pull Shamrock's guy out." It was behind the scenes kinda things that-

    13. JR

      Hm.

    14. DA

      ... that were all prevalent at that point in time.

    15. JR

      Yeah, there was a lot of shenanigans in the early, early days.

    16. DA

      Oh, yeah.

    17. JR

      But it was so loosely constructed. You know, people have to realize, like, if you're looking at the UFC now, you're looking at, you know, WME-owned UFC, gigantic money, huge fucking special effects, lots of screens-

    18. DA

      Absolutely.

    19. JR

      ... everything looks amazing, the sound's amazing.

    20. DA

      Professional wrestling.

  6. 12:32 – 14:41

    How small and chaotic early UFC production really was (Buffalo ban, Dothan scramble)

    1. JR

      Back then, I mean, UFC 12 was the first one that I did, which was Scott Furozo's, uh, debut.

    2. DA

      Uh-huh.

    3. JR

      And we did it in Dothan, Alabama.

    4. DA

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      And it was like a high school auditorium or something. It wasn't a very big place.

    6. DA

      I remember the name Dothan, uh.

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. DA

      Was that...

    9. JR

      That was when, uh-

    10. DA

      They did an interview with me, and it was supposed to be at a different show somewhere, and they got, they got canceled, so they put it up in Dothan.

    11. JR

      It was supposed to be in Buffalo, but it got banned from New York.

    12. DA

      Right, s-

    13. JR

      So last minute we had to all fly to Alabama.

    14. DA

      Right. So-

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. DA

      ... I was, I was actually on the plane going to Dothan, and, or not Dothan, but to-

    17. JR

      Buffalo.

    18. DA

      Right. And they, they said, "Hey, there's been a change of plans, you gotta go to Dothan." So I went to Dothan, and I was sitting in the, like, two-story hotel, not really a hotel, but one, like a motel-type thing. And I looked out across the parking lot, and there was a bar there. Said, "Oh, what the hell, why not?" So I ended up walking across the street, and I was drinking at the bar with this crazy old country admit guy, old school duties, like a peanut farmer or something like that. And we got blasted.

    19. JR

      (laughs)

    20. DA

      And he goes, "Come on, I'll take you to the arena." And, uh, I'm like, "Okay." So we get in this old pickup truck, and he turns the key, and it sounds like a dragster. And I got, uh, hillbilly hay man or whatever driving this thing. (laughs) And we drive to the arena, and I'm like, "No, no, no, I'm supposed to do an interview." He ends up parking on the island, a grassy island. He drove up the curb.

    21. JR

      (laughs)

    22. DA

      I stumbled in there, and, and David Isaac is like, "Oh my god, what's gonna happen next?"

    23. JR

      (laughs)

    24. DA

      They got banned, and then I showed up out of my mind.

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. DA

      And I don't... I think there might be a clip of me all drunk saying stuff. I don't, I don't know, though.

    27. JR

      There's a bunch of those clips, I'm sure. (laughs)

    28. DA

      Yeah, oh, absolutely.

  7. 14:41 – 24:03

    From wrestling injury to boxing ambition: Tank’s early life and first gym challenges

    1. JR

      How old were you with your f- with your first UFC fight?

    2. DA

      Uh, 30 years old.

    3. JR

      And did you have, uh, any competitive fights other than wrestling matches? Did you do any amateur fights or anything?

    4. DA

      Well, um-

    5. JR

      It kind of wasn't around back then, right?

    6. DA

      I, I... No, yeah, there was no real fighting. Uh, you only did it in the street. And, um, back in those days, um, I had wrestled, and then on my, uh, 19th birthday, um, I was hoping to go on. I had one year of wrestling in junior college, and, um, a dumb drunk friend of mine drove into a light pole on my birthday. That's why my teeth got all knocked out. And, um, it also put a gash right underneath my knee, and mangled my knee, on my left knee. And, um, so my wrestling, I came back, like, halfway, uh, maybe a third of the way into the season, and I just could... I, I didn't have enough time to get whatever. It's, it's all written, meaning spiritually. And so, I didn't perform the way I wanted to perform my sophomore year. I, I did not continue, no one was interested in me. I... So the whole time, as a young man, I wanted to box. And my mother said, "Absolutely not. Not the CTE, and everybody boxes is stupid, and you're not going to do that." And I'm like, "Oh, man." So I didn't have anything to do. I was 18 years old, and I said, "You know what? I wanna box." And the same guy that... It was back when Mike Tyson was on fire, and he was the baddest man on the planet. And I was a young man, I go, "Not my planet." And, uh, so, you know, he would obviously kill me in boxing, but I... There's not a boxing ring on every corner. And so I was all fired up with that. So same guy that I worked for at the, uh, uh, clothing company, where they cut and sew type thing, it was for medical, uh, clothing. He lived up, uh, San Luis Obispo way, and he started boxing. And we were at a, you know, just like what you would think, going into a boxing gym and learning how to box. And I go, "Man, I wanna box." And he said, "Well, come on up, and then you'll... I'll introduce you to my trainer, and maybe, you know..." A- anyways, that got the ball started rolling, basically. So went up to San Luis Obispo, and there's a boxing gym just outside of there. Atascadero or something like that. And, uh, so I went to the gym, and it's like you see these reels where these guys all... They'll... You learn a skill, like boxing, and then you... Somebody that comes in that's a complete novice has no clue...... of what's going on and they, they take advantage of these people. "Oh, you think you're tough? You wanna box? Well, if you don't know how to box..." So that was the vibe when I went into the boxing gym. And I go, "Hey, yeah, I wanna box. Yeah, sure. I'll do this." And he goes, "Are you sure?" I'm like, "Yeah." So they go, "Well, you wanna spar?" And they're all snickering. "You wanna spar?" And I'm like, "Yeah, isn't that what we're in here for? Isn't that what you do?"

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. DA

      And they're like, "Oh, no, you gotta, you have to learn." And I'm like, "Okay." So they go ... They're like all kind of like chuckling, going, "Oh ho, he wants to spar." And, um, so they went and got a mouthpiece from a local, like, uh, what do you call those stores? Um, sporting goods store. And, uh, he comes back and they were trying to melt it in coffee-

    9. JR

      (laughs)

    10. DA

      ... and all that kinda stuff. And so, um, this guy's, uh, got a name, very big name, uh, from the '70s in boxing. And I, I don't need to talk about, his family has a big name. And, uh-

    11. JR

      You can't say his name?

    12. DA

      N- I don't-

    13. JR

      Okay.

    14. DA

      There's no point in it.

    15. JR

      Okay.

    16. DA

      Yeah, it's ... I- I could, but, oh, I was training with this guy and he did this guy. I have it on videotape and all that kinda stuff, so it's not like I'm making up stories. I, I'm ... The antithesis of trying to get myself over, I try to just go, "No, no, no." You know. So I get in there and I go ... And they're all like, "Oh, this is gonna be great." And this guy is a heavyweight, and he had like eight professional fights. And I believe they thought they were gonna use his name and push him and get him some money somehow. And so I'm like, "Okay." And I go ... Like, they ... I've put boxing gloves on and hit the bag and played around and sparred with people. But I'm like, "Okay, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna do it."

    17. JR

      (laughs) Let's see.

    18. DA

      Yeah, and I, I knocked the living snot out of him. I just-

    19. JR

      Really?

    20. DA

      Yeah. I just said, "Fuck it." I don't know, can you cuss on this or whatever?

    21. JR

      Yeah, you can cuss.

    22. DA

      Yeah. But I said, "Okay." I wasn't sparring, like skillfully boxing. I was like, "Let's go." And we win.

    23. JR

      And you had already had a bunch of street fights?

    24. DA

      Yes.

    25. JR

      And you knew how to hit things?

    26. DA

      Yes.

    27. JR

      And power is something you either have or you don't have.

    28. DA

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      And you've always had crazy power.

    30. DA

      Yes. That's-

  8. 24:03 – 30:02

    “Fighter’s fortitude” vs skill: why some people freeze when it’s real

    1. DA

      Mutua was, metaphorically, martial arts in my head. See-... all these people running around and, and... (sniffs) Martial arts is martial arts. Don't get me wrong. It works. It's a skill. But it... Fighting is, uh, I, I-

    2. JR

      Chaos.

    3. DA

      Yeah. But I, I coined this phrase, I believe... Anyways, uh, uh, fighter's fortitude and that is where... Because fighting be- does not... Is not a skill that you learn and you become tough. Royce Gracie is not tough because he knows jujitsu. He's a tough man. And all these guys that fight in the UFC are tough men not, not because they know skill. You... L- like these people, "I see you. Gonna get an armbar." Who cares? Y- y- anybody that sings skill is not a fighter. Y- y- you're, you're a pussy, frankly. I mean, you sit around and go, "I can do this and I can do..." That doesn't matter. It's how tough you are, your fighter's fortitude. When, when someone's got a thumb in your eye socket or taken a big bite out of your back and how you react and what you do from that, that's what fighter's fortitude is. Not like, "Oh, well, uh, f- uh, he's got his thumb in my eye. Maybe I could armbar him or put him in a triangle." That doesn't save you. That's the... Fighting is emotional. It's not about skill. It's what is inside your head, the heart you have, and what you need to do to get things done to beat the opponent, hopefully, that's thinking the same thing you're thinking and that is, "I'm gonna get to this point where I can kill this person or let... or kill him." But basically, fighting is to a point where i- in, in the street anyways... And th- everybody that I beat up was trying to do the same thing to me in the street. They were trying to beat me up and get to the point where they can make the decision of killing me. And that's the whole point of a, a street fight. And it's not about, "Oh, I got better skill than you." That's the difference between a street fighter and somebody that goes to the gym and learns how to throw a correct punch or a, a submission hold that's gonna save your ass. You can learn those things. You can't be tough by learning those things. You can become tougher by learning those things. And, and if you're a tough guy and you learn skills, that makes you tougher. Like Royce Gracie, he's a tough man. But that guy's got skills up the yin yang in jujitsu. That makes him even tougher.

    4. JR

      Yeah, but he has the mental fortitude-

    5. DA

      Yes.

    6. JR

      ... to keep it together in the chaos.

    7. DA

      Fighter's-

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. DA

      Fighter's fortitude.

    10. JR

      And some people, even very skillful people, for some reason, don't have that.

    11. DA

      Yes.

    12. JR

      There's moments we've all seen where you get this guy who's like... Especially a lot of guys who are gym heroes. There's a bunch of guys-

    13. DA

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JR

      ... that in the gym, they look sensational. They look like, "This guy's gonna be a world champion. Keep an eye on him." You watch them sparring, you watch them hitting mitts and you're like, "Pshew, this guy's insane."

    15. DA

      Right.

    16. JR

      And then they fall... They, they, they, m- maybe reach to 30% of their potential when they fight. You could see the panic in them and the things-

    17. DA

      'Cause it's... They don't have it in their head.

    18. JR

      Y- yeah. They don't have something, the thing that some guys have, like a Max Holloway has, that he'll fight to the end. To the end.

    19. DA

      Fi- fighter's fortitude.

    20. JR

      There's zero quit. The, the quit is not in there. You can go-

    21. DA

      Absolutely.

    22. JR

      ... searching around for it forever. You're never gonna find it. And then there's some guys, they're, you... Even though they're really talented, you can get to a point where they'll break, and they'll just try to survive.

    23. DA

      Yes.

    24. JR

      And there's a difference. And it's... The great ones, all, like Jon Jones, like so many of these guys, like, they find a way to win and they never give up. No matter-

    25. DA

      A-

    26. JR

      ... how chaotic it gets, no matter how bad they're losing, they find a way.

    27. DA

      100%. That's-

    28. JR

      Leon Edwards in the fifth round against, uh, K- K- Kamaru Usman, perfect example. He's getting just... He's getting taken down and manhandled, then he finally lands a head kick in the fifth round.

    29. DA

      There you go.

    30. JR

      And he becomes a hero.

  9. 30:02 – 33:01

    Oleg, guillotines, and ref controversies: Tank’s Big John McCarthy feud escalates

    1. DA

      If you, uh, put it to UFC 6, that was the, uh, awakening of the guillotine choke because the rest... You had...... jiu-jitsu, and then wrestlers came along and started, uh, handing it to the submission jiu-jitsu guys. And, um, then UFC 6 came along and they came up with the guillotine. Now, if you... They, uh... Oleg got the guillotine on me twice, and I fought myself out of it. I don't... I've never timed it or whatever, but it was a while. I was losing consciousness, I was seeing black. But I got... I pulled myself out. And the fact you brought up the, uh, fish hooks, when I finally... The first time, he got it and I pulled my head out and he was laying there, and I'm like, "What are you gonna do now?" And then I reached down and fish hooked him and started banging his head on the floor.

    2. JR

      When you look-

    3. DA

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      ... back at yourself then, does that even seem like you?

    5. DA

      Yeah. Why not?

    6. JR

      (laughs) I mean, it just-

    7. DA

      (laughs)

    8. JR

      I mean (laughs) , of course it is you.

    9. DA

      Uh-huh.

    10. JR

      But, I mean, the, the young hulking you smashing guys.

    11. NA

      This was also just the one round, correct?

    12. JR

      Yes.

    13. DA

      No, there-

    14. NA

      Like a 17-minute round?

    15. DA

      Yeah. Th- there's no rounds.

    16. JR

      Was it, uh... Did they have a-

    17. DA

      Uh-

    18. JR

      ... time limit on any of the fights?

    19. DA

      No. And, uh, I would have won that fight if Big John McCartney wouldn't have, uh, stuck his, uh, his melon in between us and break us up. You know, that's how... You were talking about how they, uh, fix the fights and everything, he, he broke this fight up. They sh- there were no rules, n- n- not supposed to, to do... Look, he's breaking us up. Why'd he do that?

    20. JR

      Why did they do that?

    21. DA

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      Were people booing?

    23. DA

      Yeah. That was all John McCart- McCartney. He... Why did he break us up?

    24. JR

      I don't know. Like, what were the rules back then as far as like, like I-

    25. DA

      There were no rules. He... All... You... All they had to do is give him a track, uh, starting gun and he could stand there and go boom. And that, that's all he needed to do.

    26. JR

      He just had to start the fight?

    27. DA

      He, he, he, he is a-

    28. JR

      And so this, this restart was just completely because of him?

    29. DA

      Yes. Yes.

    30. JR

      Because of Big John McCarthy?

  10. 33:01 – 48:13

    Getting “kicked out of the UFC”: Puerto Rico brawl, backstage threats, and ultimatum politics

    1. DA

      Well, you might like him, but, uh, he, uh, leveraged his made-up, uh, persona of Big John to get me kicked out of the show, him and his wife. They got me literally kicked out of the show.

    2. JR

      They kicked you out of the UFC?

    3. DA

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      Really?

    5. DA

      Yeah.

    6. JR

      What year was this?

    7. DA

      Uh, v- very early. Well, at-

    8. JR

      Why would they wanna get you kicked out of the UFC?

    9. DA

      'Cause, because he does not like me. He's a cop, and he doesn't like the fact that I'm a, uh, probably in his eyes, a thug. But the point is he, he has a bee in his mind, he's never liked me. He... You know, he was a jiu-jitsu student, uh, before he started in the thing. They, they... For the Gracies, they didn't have a ref, so Art Davie goes, "Hey, what about that big guy, Big John?" And then Big John was a cop and everything, and he did, uh, background checks on me before I got into the UFC. Like, "Oh, yeah. No, this guy really... He's got a record. He's been... He's got..." I've been, uh, arraigned at least, at least seven times for beating people up.

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. DA

      And shit was hitting the fan. It was getting, it was getting bigger and more and more, "You're gonna get in troubles pretty soon." Thank God I had a great attorney and, um, he, he was a guy that could point out the truth and people would see that, and the DA would go, "Okay, community service." I'd go do, do that at the boxing gym.

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. DA

      (laughs) So, anyway, so John checked into it and he goes, "No, this guy really is a, a street fighting legend like Tank Murdock." And, um, obviously the guy's dad was a, was a cop, and that, uh, underlying it doesn't matter. But he did not like the fact that I came along after the Gracies 'cause he was like a stooge for Gracie jiu-jitsu and the whole nine yards. And when I came along, I kind of said, "No, no, no, no. I... Fighting is emotional and it's not a skill. It's not a skills match, it's, it's, it's what you have in your head." And he obviously doesn't have anything in his (laughs) . But, so, at Puerto Rico, um, I used to go around to dojos and go in there after... I'd cruise around drinking a 12-pack (laughs) -

    14. JR

      (laughs)

    15. DA

      ... in my van. And, and we'd pull up to dojos and walk in there and go, "Hey, does anybody want to fight?"

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. DA

      And nobody did. And so I lost my, uh, train of thought on that, but...

    18. JR

      (laughs)

    19. DA

      Oh, this is it. Okay, so when I was, I was working out with weights and I, and I didn't... I wasn't a strong day for me. So I got... You have to know when to say, "No, not lifting today." So I felt...... compunction and I needed to go do something, I said, "Let's go check this jujitsu place out." Um, it, they had flyers at the Westminster Boxing Gym where I was boxing after I left that Bakersfield thing. So we go in there, and all the other kung fu and Wing Chung's and all that stuff, no- no one ever wanted to fight me. And I go, "Let's go check out this jujitsu thing, see if it's real or not. And this guy's supposed to be a world champion," and all this. And, um, since, since it's out there, I'll say who it was, but it was Alain Goes. And, uh, so he's supposed to be some world champion this and that, and at this time we're totally green, didn't have any really respect for jujitsu or anything like that, and I was with Paul Herrera and Eddie Reese, who are very accomplished wrestlers. And I go, "Let's go check it out. I'm not lifting, let's go see what, if this stuff is for real." So we go into the jujitsu thing and it was a little bit of a drive. We get in there and I said, "Hey, we wanna roll around with you and see what, check this stuff out." You know, and they're Portuguese, "Oh, demonstration, demonstration!" And I'm like, "Oh, what the fuck is this?" Anyways, so one of the guys goes in the back, I guess they put cameras up in these little mirrored boxes, the one-way mirror things. And so Eddie gets up there and, um, he, he's a little guy, and so it didn't take him very long to tap him out with, like, an arm thing, uh, and then Paul, who's a, um, is a All American from Nebraska, wrestler, bigger guy, like 190-ish. He gets in there and I'm like going, "What the hell's going on?" 'Cause they're lasting and lasting, and he's on his back. And at that time I was like, "What the... What are you on your back for?" It's stupid.

    20. NA

      (laughs)

    21. DA

      You know?

    22. NA

      Yeah.

    23. DA

      You're totally ignorant of, of what was going on.

    24. NA

      Yeah.

    25. DA

      And I'm like, "Holy fuck," he ended up tapping him out. And I'm like going, "Wow, he made short work of Eddie and he tapped out Paul." And I had a respect for Paul for his wrestling abilities and where he'd gone and trained and wrestled for. And I was like, "Holy smokes." Well, I'm, I'm rather large and very powerful and, uh, Alain Goes is not. And, um, so I go, "Okay." Oh, they, and yeah, they were starting on their, their knees and all that kinda stuff.

    26. NA

      (laughs)

    27. DA

      And I'm like, "Whatever." So I get on him and I, I had a, uh, 'cause of medical, uh, place, the cut and sew place, I had a scrub on. So I'm-

    28. NA

      (laughs)

    29. DA

      ... I'm on top of him and he grabs, like, a nurse's scrub, 'cause they don't rip or anything like that, and he, he does, like, an X on his thing and he starts choking me. And I look at him, and I just kind of roll my eyes like, "Really?" Like, I went like that, my fists on both sides of his face, you know? And he's like, "Oh, okay." And so we rolled around, rolled around, rolled around. And then he finally got to an arm lock. And like I said, I was, I was doing curls with, like, 120 pound dumbbells and stuff like that. And so I, I picked him up, basically he was, like, a foot off of the mat, and I raised my right hand up and made a fist like, "You want me to fall down on you?" His eyes got huge as, as, as, as the moon. "No, no, no, no, no, no!" And I'm like, "Okay." So I let him down and let it go, and he was like, "Uh," like, "I've had enough of this big guy here."

    30. NA

      (laughs)

  11. 48:13 – 1:19:31

    Fixing, favoritism, and survival: accusations about early brackets and “jobs” in fights

    1. JR

      Well, the early days it was so, it was so loose, and you never knew when it was gonna go away, because it was already getting suspended from cable. The cable-

    2. DA

      Right.

    3. JR

      ... cable kicked it off. You could only get it off DirecTV back then.It was-

    4. DA

      Yeah, with John McC-, uh, not, what was it? McCain.

    5. JR

      McCain. Yeah.

    6. DA

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      Yeah, John McCain. And John McCain, uh, allegedly was, uh, doing something for Bud Light. So, he was working with Bud Light, and Bud Light wanted boxing.

    8. DA

      Right.

    9. JR

      It's kind of, you know, the whole, the whole world was conspiring to keep MMA from flourishing back then.

    10. DA

      Absolutely.

    11. JR

      I mean, it was a real big deal. They would disparage it ever since... (laughs) There's a funny fucking, there's a funny video of Bob Arum talking about it.

    12. DA

      (laughs)

    13. JR

      They're rolling around on the ground like homosexuals. (laughs)

    14. DA

      I saw, I, I saw that, yes. I was laughing about that too.

    15. JR

      It's amazing. It's amazing.

    16. DA

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      'Cause he's such an old school guy.

    18. DA

      Right.

    19. JR

      Him saying that, it's just, it's very funny.

    20. DA

      Immediately, I was like, "What's his angle? Why is he saying that?" He's just trying to say-

    21. JR

      Boxing.

    22. DA

      Yeah. He's trying to say boxing.

    23. JR

      He's, he's just silly. Because, uh, boxing's awesome. I love boxing. Doesn't mean-

    24. DA

      Oh, yeah. Me too.

    25. JR

      ... it doesn't mean the UFC's not better, you know?

    26. DA

      Oh, no. It's a, it's a skill.

    27. JR

      Yeah. Yeah, boxing is an amazing skill.

    28. DA

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      It's an amazing skill. And it's a huge part of MMA. I mean, if you can't throw a punch, you really, you can't win.

    30. DA

      Yeah.

  12. 1:19:31 – 1:35:51

    Training, drinking, and the myth of ‘Tank didn’t train’

    1. JR

      Got it. Yeah. So it was a whole lot of fights and a whole lot of chaos. When you were, when you were competing, were you... Like, what kind of training were you doing if you were drinking that much?

    2. DA

      Oh, man. See, you know, I want, I really like to address this. And everybody thinks-

    3. JR

      Please.

    4. DA

      ... p- people don't think that I train. I, I ran a marathon. You think that you just get up some day and go, "I'm gonna go run a marathon"?

    5. JR

      Well, there's no way you didn't train.

    6. DA

      Right, I, I-

    7. JR

      At all. Like you, look at you, you were very strong.

    8. DA

      Right.

    9. JR

      You, you were obviously, y- you know, even though you're a big guy, your cardio wasn't that bad. You, you were-

    10. DA

      No.

    11. JR

      ... definitely doing something.

    12. DA

      You try, try-

    13. JR

      Yeah, yeah.

    14. DA

      Yeah. No, you try-

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. DA

      ... try fighting three times. On-

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. DA

      ... on that day, the first UFC 6, I believe I could beat any man, ah, any man on Earth that day. On, on... I was in my prime that day. The only reason why I lost is because of big John McCartney and his, uh, breaking up the fights. He, he should have never broke that fight up.

    19. JR

      Did they break... So there was no rule at all about standing people up?

    20. DA

      No, none.

    21. JR

      I personally believe, and I've t- so I've broken this down too many times to repeat it, but I'm gonna anyway. I don't think they should ever stand people up.

    22. DA

      Right.

    23. JR

      I think if a person could take you down, a person can take you down and keep you down, tough shit. Even if it's boring. Like, the whole idea-

    24. DA

      Y-

    25. JR

      ... is like, what's real?

    26. DA

      Ta- ta- take, take it away from me about McCartney, uh, affecting fights. The first fight they had, I'm... Don't quote me on this 'cause I'm, I'm not a historian, but I believe it was Bas Rutten and Kevin Randleman. That was the first fight they had with judges. John McCartney got in there and broke that fight up twice so Bas could get back up and, and come back and fight him.

    27. JR

      Were there rules back then about stand-ups?

    28. DA

      I'm, I w- I don't know. I don't think so.

    29. JR

      That was an interesting fight.

    30. DA

      I, I think, I think, i-

Episode duration: 2:11:49

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