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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

JRE MMA Show #170 with Michael "Venom" Page

Joe sits down with Michael "Venom" Page, a professional mixed martial artist currently competing in the Welterweight and Middleweight divisions of the Ultimate Fighting Championship. www.ufc.com/athlete/michael-page Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/joerogan 50% off your first box at https://www.thefarmersdog.com/rogan!

Joe RoganhostMichael "Venom" Pageguest
Oct 3, 20252h 33mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:22

    MVP arrives: point-fighter style earns praise (and hate)

    1. NA

      (drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays)

    2. JR

      We're up.

    3. MP

      All right.

    4. JR

      MVP in the house.

    5. MP

      Yes.

    6. JR

      The most enigmatic-

    7. MP

      (laughs)

    8. JR

      ... difficult dude to solve in all of MMA. That's you, man.

  2. 0:22 – 2:21

    Why point fighting translates: speed, distance, and “fencing” footwork

    1. MP

      Bro, you know what? I, I always ... I wanna start simply because you ... What you have done for me specifically, I get a lot of criticism, a lot of hate, and especially obviously jumping, when I first got into the, into the MMA world. New to me, you know, I'm just like, "Okay, let me just be myself, do my thing." First fight goes well. Land this crazy kick, goes viral, and I get nothing but hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. But then having prominent figures like yourself that are constantly have been championing my style, uh, champion, championing the, like, the points element of things, I just appreciate you for that.

    2. JR

      Oh, my pleasure brother.

    3. MP

      I appreciate that.

    4. JR

      I appreciate you. It's almost like we called for you, because there was a time in the early days of MMA, like in the early 2000s, where I was like, "This is what's missing."

    5. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JR

      "This ... What's missing is point fighters." And people would, like, mock me.

    7. MP

      (laughs)

    8. JR

      They, they'd be like, "No, no, no, no, no, like, I've sparred with these dudes. You can't hit them. It's a different thing." I'm like, "They have a very specific skill. That skill of closing distance-"

    9. MP

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      "... and being elusive."

    11. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    12. JR

      It's not like any other sport.

    13. MP

      Yeah, yeah.

    14. JR

      It's almost like fencing and MMA combined, or, uh, and martial arts combined.

    15. MP

      Yeah, yeah. I always tell people that, like, most of the combat sports in terms of kickboxing, the full-contact side of things, is more to do with the ... There's a fixation on power, knocking people out.

    16. JR

      Yes.

    17. MP

      Whereas our element is just the speed element.

    18. JR

      Yes.

    19. MP

      Just getting in and getting out.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. MP

      Not getting touched. Like you said, the tag, tag kind of feel, fencing.

    22. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MP

      Similar kind of footwork and, yeah, just not many people had decided to cross over to any kind of full-contact world, really. Um, and you had the likes of Wonderboy Thompson.

    24. JR

      Raymond Daniels.

    25. MP

      Raymond Daniels.

    26. JR

      Yeah, just you and Raymond were the most-

    27. MP

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      ... prominent ones, and him and Glory-

    29. MP

      Yeah.

    30. JR

      ... and of course you, and-

  3. 2:21 – 4:24

    Joe’s early MMA “missing piece” theory—and MVP as proof of concept

    1. JR

      But the, the point was that this was a, an element that when ... I remember when I was doing TaeKwonDo and I would fight in tournaments, I would occasionally fight in point fighting tournaments.

    2. MP

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      So if ... And if ... I'd fight a guy like Mafia Holloway or one of these guys that were really good, I'd be like, "This is crazy."

    4. MP

      (laughs)

    5. JR

      "Like, this is such a crazy skill."

    6. MP

      Very different.

    7. JR

      And, and when I saw MMA where a lot of guys were just, like, like, real flat-footed and waiting, I'm like, "There's a giant opening here."

    8. MP

      Yep.

    9. JR

      And then you came along.

    10. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    11. JR

      And you really were the proof of concept.

    12. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JR

      And I was like, "Okay, this is it. You get a world champion at that who figures all the other stuff out." Because essentially striking is striking.

    14. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JR

      You know, you can learn throwing leg kicks differently, you can learn, you know, different stances and movements. The grappling is the big h-

    16. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JR

      That's the big hurdle.

    18. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    19. JR

      But once you can solve the takedown defense-

    20. MP

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      ... and some of the grappling hurdles, and you've go- actually got submission victories-

    22. MP

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    23. JR

      ... then you got a real problem.

    24. MP

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      Because every fight starts standing up.

    26. MP

      Exactly.

    27. JR

      Every fight starts standing up with a big-ass fucking cage.

    28. MP

      (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    29. JR

      It's a big-ass cage. And I see guys like Kevin Holland, like, he's like, "What the-"

    30. MP

      (laughs)

  4. 4:24 – 5:29

    Frustration factor: why opponents struggle to prepare for MVP

    1. JR

      It really is because, you know, like, think about there's certain techniques that just come along, like the calf kick, and all of a sudden, like, how is this ... People have been kicking legs for so long.

    2. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      How is this kicking a different spot on the leg-

    4. MP

      Yeah. Changes.

    5. JR

      ... kind of revolutionary?

    6. MP

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. JR

      We need to see that.

    8. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    9. JR

      And I think the introduction of you is gonna make a lot of these guys that are, like, high-level point guys go, "Hmm."

    10. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JR

      "There's a, there's a spot there for me."

    12. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    13. JR

      Because the open ... Look, there's always an advantage in the fact that every round starts standing up.

    14. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JR

      As, as long as you have takedown defense, every round starts in your realm.

    16. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JR

      And your realm is different than all the other stand-up realms. It's totally different.

    18. MP

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      And if a guy is a plotting guy-

    20. MP

      Yeah, yeah.

    21. JR

      ... and he thinks, "Oh, this is my world." Like-

    22. MP

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      ... that's not your world.

    24. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    25. JR

      It's not your ... It's your world against someone who agrees to fight the way you fight.

    26. MP

      100%.

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. MP

      And I always say that is 'cause I, you know, I've co- come up against guys, I was like, "Man, he can ... He's got big, big hit, a big punch on him." And I agree, I'm like, "Yeah, I get it," but power only means something if you land.

    29. JR

      Yeah.

    30. MP

      And my whole element is, like, not being touched.

  5. 5:29 – 6:59

    Psychological warfare, “fighting cans” criticism, and real consequences

    1. JR

      One of the, one of the things you did during the Jared Cannon neer fight after you hit him, you were like, "Calm down."

    2. MP

      Yeah. (laughs)

    3. JR

      "Calm down." I was like, "Oh, no."

    4. MP

      (laughs)

    5. JR

      'Cause you imagine just getting popped, your eyes are runny, your nose hurts.

    6. MP

      (laughs)

    7. JR

      And this dude's standing in front of you going, "Calm down. Calm down."

    8. MP

      (laughs)

    9. JR

      I'm like, "No, he didn't."

    10. MP

      (laughs)

    11. JR

      Oh, no.

    12. MP

      But that's the-

    13. JR

      It's psychological warfare.

    14. MP

      But that's the, and that's obviously, that's k- kinda, like, part of my personality-

    15. JR

      Yes.

    16. MP

      ... coming out, and the entertaining side of me. And a lot obviously added to the criticism that I would get.... which, because of how I would make my opponents feel in terms of their frustration-

    17. JR

      (laughs)

    18. MP

      ... and then obviously the antics on top of it, so many people, the, the, the main term that came with me was like, "Oh, he's fighting cans. He's fighting cans." That, that, my whole career was, "Oh, he's fighting cans, like, he can't..." But I always say to people is, "I'm just making it seem a lot less difficult than it actually is."

    19. JR

      Yes.

    20. MP

      These guys are super talented fighters-

    21. JR

      Yes.

    22. MP

      ... I'm just not fighting on the same wavelength and timing as them. As you said, these guys that plod around, they're so used to it, so when they're fighting other people it looks a- a very even, but when they're fighting somebody that they just can't get their hands on-

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. MP

      ... and they're getting frustrated on top of that, so there's the mental side, the physical side, th-

    25. JR

      And you have a lot of power, so there's consequences.

    26. MP

      Yeah, there's consequences actually, yeah.

    27. JR

      It's, it's not like you're tip, you know, tippy-tappy-

    28. MP

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. JR

      ... tip-patting 'em-

    30. MP

      Yeah, yeah.

  6. 6:59 – 10:48

    The Cyborg knockout: gruesome impact, Poké Ball celebration, aftermath

    1. MP

      And, you know what, one thing I actually wanted to do, I actually brought some gifts for you, but one of the things I actually wanted to bring for you was-

    2. JR

      Don't tell me you brought a piece of his head.

    3. MP

      No. (laughs)

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. MP

      He wouldn't let me have that, so, uh-

    6. JR

      (laughs)

    7. MP

      I'll tell you, actually wanted to... We, we basically had a Poke Ball come, it was a very specific one, and they messed up on delivery, but I'm gonna get it to you in Vegas.

    8. JR

      Okay.

    9. MP

      So when we go over to Vegas-

    10. JR

      All right, beautiful.

    11. MP

      I'm just making sure-

    12. JR

      Beautiful.

    13. MP

      ... I, I get that to you, because again, it's something that you've spoken about with me, and it's a big, it's a big part of my, my history, uh, in MMA, just that, that, that Cyborg fight, so- (swoosh)

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. MP

      Yeah, yeah.

    16. JR

      Bro, that was the most gruesome injury I've ever seen.

    17. MP

      Yeah, yeah.

    18. JR

      I've seen a lot of broken bones-

    19. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    20. JR

      ... I've never seen someone with a caved in head.

    21. MP

      Yeah, yeah. The doctors were saying that, um, what we were hearing back from them, they said, "He's only ever seen that in a car accident, never in, in-"

    22. JR

      Yeah, that's his head.

    23. MP

      "... in MMA." Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    24. JR

      That is so crazy.

    25. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    26. JR

      And that was his last fight. And I know after the fight, he was like, "We're gonna fight again." The doctor's like, "Hey!"

    27. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause I think he was-

    28. JR

      "That's a wrap."

    29. MP

      Um, some- someone sent me something where he was supposed to fight again, and-

    30. JR

      (sighs)

  7. 10:48 – 11:24

    London Shoot Fighters roots: coaches, gym culture, and “meathead” intensity

    1. MP

      Yeah, yeah. It's actually interesting 'cause you've trained with, um, Marius, uh, my coaches, one of my coaches-

    2. JR

      Yes.

    3. MP

      ... Marius-

    4. JR

      Yeah, yeah.

    5. MP

      ... uh, and, um, obviously he says to say hello.

    6. JR

      Tell him I said hi.

    7. MP

      He's-

    8. JR

      I love that dude.

    9. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. He says he trained with you guys, I think you guys trained for about four years with Eddie Bravo as well.

    10. JR

      Yeah, I've known him for 20 years.

    11. MP

      Jeez.

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. MP

      Crazy, crazy.

    14. JR

      Crazy.

    15. MP

      And that's obviously, that's a big part of my, my history now with them, them two, the brothers, uh, Alexis and Marius. Paul-

    16. JR

      Were you at the gym when-

    17. MP

      Paul... Lee.

    18. JR

      ... when Lee Murray was-

    19. MP

      No.

    20. JR

      No?

    21. MP

      No, no, no. I was just after.

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. MP

      Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

    24. JR

      Just that. Luckily.

  8. 11:24 – 19:47

    From point fighting to MMA: retirement, ATT visit, and first grappling shock

    1. MP

      But interestingly though, when I was in... At the time that I, he was around, uh, I was still very, like, heavily focused on the points fighting, kickboxing, so... But a friend of mine was training at Chute and he was like, "You need to come and train with these guys. Like, these guys are serious," and, but for me MMA was just never gonna be a thing that I'd ever see myself in.

    2. JR

      Really?

    3. MP

      I've always seen it as, I guess like your average fan back in the day and some fans now have like, "Ah, it's brutal man." Like, I-

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. MP

      And again, I'm a points fighter, it's like I, I don't see myself being good enough to, or tough enough to fight these guys. Like-

    6. JR

      What changed?

    7. MP

      ... obviously in my, had a successful career in the kickboxing, but it didn't really go anywhere. It's like you're fighting the same people. Like the amount of times me and Raymond have fought, and we were like the, some of the top two guys. Like, if we're both in the competition, like we both walk in the room, everyone was like, "Oh my God, are these guys gonna fight?" Like-

    8. JR

      Right.

    9. MP

      ... we were the guys. But I'm fighting the same people, and it's just like everything, everyone hoping that you're gonna lose or your fans are kinda like supporting you. And then I come back to reality, come off a plane, I've traveled, I've fought all the, you know, the whole week or whatever, won a world title, and I've come back home and then nothing. Like-

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. MP

      ... I come back home to just me being myself, just me being me, which I'm okay with.

    12. JR

      No recognition.

    13. MP

      But there's no recognition-

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. MP

      ... there was no sponsorship. I, you, I paid to do everything and as m- I, I loved it and if I could choose the route again, I'd still do it 'cause I absolutely loved it. But there comes a p- I'm getting older and this comes a point where I have to st- and I'm now starting to... Uh, but at the time, I'm, I'm a kid, but now it's getting to the point where I have to work and so on. Now it's like, "I can't do this forever," but at the same time, I know I want to compete for a living. I just didn't know what, in what. So then I said to myself, "Okay, cool. Let me... I need to take a step away from this. I know while I'm in this, this will be a distraction, I'm not gonna be able to focus on things 'cause another competition that I'm gonna wanna win is gonna come up and it's gonna turn my attention." So I said, "Look, I'm gonna..." I said to everyone, "I'm retired." I thought, "Let me say it to as many people as possible so then it's hard for me to turn back on it." So I'm just like, "Yeah, I'm, okay, yeah, I'm, I'm retiring now, not fighting again, yeah, this my last fight," da da da da. And I said, "Cool." Started to go around looking at boxing gyms, looking at full contact kickboxing, looking at MMA gyms, and the first gym I actually went to was, uh, in Miami, Coconut Creek, uh, American Top Team.

    16. JR

      Ah.

    17. MP

      Yeah. 'Cause my sister, uh, used to live in that area, 'cause I got, uh, siblings over in America as well. So came out there, and I, in my head at the time, there's only few people from the UK that was doing anything in MMA. So when I was like, "Maybe I'm gonna try MMA," I was like, "Obviously I have to go to America." And I'm lucky enough to have siblings that live over there, so I'm good. So get to America, get to American Top Team, I go in there, I'm like, "This is where I'm gonna start." Like, I met a couple of the coaches and just kinda just like general chitchat. I didn't tell them who I was or anything, just kinda saw the vibe. The, the facilities are amazing. I was just like, "Yeah, this is, this is gonna be my new life." And then I get back to England and a good friend of mine, Marvin Francis, was like, "Just in case, just have a look at some gyms over here. You don't know." Just walk before, 'cause obviously I've got things to sort out before I can just make the full move. "So while you're doing that, let's have a look at a couple of gyms." And we did some research, we went to a couple of the Gracie gyms, went to a few other gyms that was around. Then I found London Shoot Fighters. I hadn't done any research, and at this time, I personally wasn't watching MMA at all. The only person I knew-

    18. JR

      What year is this?

    19. MP

      Uh, so I would've been... I'd have been what? 24? So what's that about? (clears throat) So over 12, 13 years back. And I was trying to think, the only guys in the UK would have been Brad Pickett was fighting, uh-

    20. JR

      Solid fighter.

    21. MP

      Solid fighter. Michael Bisping was fighting. But, and nobody had like achieved anything of big quality from there. Everything, everything was in America.

    22. JR

      Hm.

    23. MP

      Um...

    24. JR

      Was Bisping still living in England or had he moved to America yet?

    25. MP

      I think he was still in En- yeah, I think he was still in England. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but again, I was only learning it as I got more into it. But initially I just thought... I made the decision without actually researching anything, which is very much like me. I'll just-

    26. JR

      (laughs)

    27. MP

      ... jump in headfirst. (laughs)

    28. JR

      Figure it out.

    29. MP

      I'll figure it out afterwards, right? (laughs)

    30. JR

      (laughs)

  9. 19:47 – 28:06

    Childhood grind and the “matrix” breakthrough in tournaments

    1. MP

      ... ev- like, he was, for me, he was the more talented one. But I mean, like, every single weekend we're driving to Birmingham, to Manchester, to Scotland, to... We did trips everywhere. Like, my, my dad started a gym and he was going around everywhere. And every weekend, there, it's like f- three hours that way, four hours this way, there's... Coming back and I'm just got a bust lip (laughs) like iced.

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. MP

      And they're just, their medals are just like cling, cling, cling, cling, cling. Like, they got all the medals and they're talking about how they spin kicked some guy, and they did this, and I'm just like, "Yeah, yeah, cool. Cool story." And I got destroyed for four, five years and when I is, uh, I got to a qualifiers, uh, it was in Birmingham, uh, it was an i- ISKA, uh, qualifiers, and I managed to win that, which that in itself was success for me, like, I'm like, "Oh, man, I g- I qualified to go to the World Championships. I've already done well." Everyone else was there so they were supposed to do it, like, they're good enough to have the expectation of themselves. So then I get to the World Championships and the way they seed fighters in the US was very different to the UK at the time. So I had one fight, another fight, another fight, and I'm winning and I'm, like, happy, I'm like, "I must be in the finals already." And then they're like, "Okay, bring the seeders, fighters in," and there's, like, a shitload of fighters joining your, your, your mat and I'm like, "Oh." And my, and my dad would tell me, he's like, "Yeah, I think you're in a s- in the, in the semis. I think you're in the quarters." And then he was like, "Bro, just keep fighting." (laughs)

    4. JR

      How much did you fight?

    5. MP

      He said he couldn't work it out. I don't know. Seriously, I, I genuinely don't remember. I just remember just feeling tired and, like, I didn't understand why this was still going on, 'cause in the competitions, three, four fights you're in a final.

    6. JR

      Right.

    7. MP

      And I'd, I was at least 10 fights deep (laughs) and still felt like I was fighting.

    8. JR

      All in a day?

    9. MP

      In a day.

    10. JR

      Wow.

    11. MP

      So there's a, again, the ISKA, um, World Championships is in Orlando, Florida and it's, it's a, it's the- was the big, at the time, the biggest, uh, points kickboxing competition, so there's thousands and thousands of competitors, kids, adults, doing forms, doing, you know, katas and all this stuff. And then the, you had the points fighting, the light contact fighting and that was it. Um, and yeah, it just, all day, and then it literally got to this, like, okay, uh, I won a fight and the guy was like, "Okay, you're in the final next." The referee said that to me and I was like, "Oh," like, "I can't believe I'm in the final." And this guy was very good. I can't remember his name. We was young. I was, I think I was, like, 12 or 11 at the time, and I won the fight, I just collapsed to my, like, my, my back, I was just like, "Oh, my God." Everyone ran in there, 'cause again, nobody expected that of me, and I remember going in there, the trophy itself was six foot tall.

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. MP

      And in my head I was like, "I just want one in my house." (laughs)

    14. JR

      (laughs)

    15. MP

      And I managed to, to win that, but something that competition clicked, so all the times I was getting beaten up, all the competitions I was getting destroyed at and I wasn't even, like, close, so I was getting destroyed, I won, I won this competition and I went back home and every person I used to get destroyed by, I was smoking them. Like, something was different.

    16. JR

      Instantaneously?

    17. MP

      There's, there was a weird shift that just went click.

    18. JR

      Wow.

    19. MP

      And all the kicks that would, I'd walk into-

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. MP

      ... face first I was like, "Oh, actually I can do this." I was like... (laughs)

    22. JR

      Wow, you entered into the matrix.

    23. MP

      I'd literally, I'd dest- I, to the point, to the point where, so when I w- when I went back home it's like 12 and for the year of that circuit I'd, I didn't lose a fight.

    24. JR

      Wow.

    25. MP

      And this is from, this is from getting warped.

    26. JR

      That's crazy.

    27. MP

      And this is all- I'm fighting all the same guys that I k- I grew up with.

    28. JR

      And they must have been like, "What the fuck?"

    29. MP

      Yeah, "What the hell's going on here?" Then the, when I was 13 I asked my dad, I was like, "Can I please fight in the seniors?" And the seniors are 18s plus and he was like- and he said it to me, he said it to me later on, he was like, "As a coach, I knew you could. As your dad," I was like, "Hell no." And I begged him, like, every competition we go to I was like, "Please can I fight in the seniors? Please." And there was a big, uh, British Championship competition and (clears throat) I was- I begged, I was like, "Please," he's like, "You can do this one."And again, I don't think he... Remember, these guys are 18+, we- all different sizes as well. I d- I don't think... He knew I'd do well, but not as well as he, I did. So I won the s- my senior division-

    30. JR

      Wow.

  10. 28:06 – 31:14

    Origin of “Venom” and the creativity that breaks opponent pattern recognition

    1. MP

      Yeah. Well, funny you say that. I... That's where my name came from. So, Venom came from when I was nine, and the only kids that was in my dad's class at the time, mainly, b- bar a few others, 'cause y- at the time he did... It was basically one class. He didn't really separate the kids and adults, so just one class. So you're... I'm trying my best, ah, throwing everything in to hit adults.

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. MP

      And they're not moving, but I'm trying my best to just get some kind of reaction. And then when I started hitting people my own size, even though I was losing 'cause they were, they just... O- obviously, I was tall for my age as well, so I was fighting kids slightly more naturally developed than me, but I had a, had a whack on me.

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. MP

      And-

    6. JR

      That's a great way to put it. (laughs)

    7. MP

      You know what I mean? Like, ju- even though I, I... You know, like, I wasn't beating these guys, these guys were just way too fast for me, but when I hit them, they felt it. And it was one of my... Uh, uh, again, Marvin was literally just like, "Hey, you got some venom in you, man."

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we was very into, like, kung fu movies back in the day, and then, uh... And I was very, um, creative mind. Like, I loved just, just... Even with my martial arts, I learn a jab like this and now I have to add something-

    10. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. MP

      Uh, or I can't do things conventional. I've never, never liked to do it. If there's a... Everyone's walking that way, like, I wanna see what's over there.

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. MP

      I kind of just... I don't know what is wrong. I don't know what's wrong with me, but...

    14. JR

      Or what's right with you.

    15. MP

      Or what's right with me, but I just got that. Like, I was just curious and creative. And so there's a film called The Five Deadly Venoms, like old school, old school kung fu classic. And he would be like, "Yeah, five deadly venoms, let's make a move for each, like, uh, thing." So he'd be like scorpion or toad, and I would make up weird moves and try to add it into... And that was always my thing, I'd see something on the, in the movies and I'm like, "I'm gonna try it in the, in there." This is all while I'm still getting beaten up, by the way, as well. But that never left me. So even when I started beating all these people now, I'm doing it with the style and flare of like, "What more can I do?"

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. MP

      You know what I mean?

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. MP

      So, yeah, yeah.

    20. JR

      But it's so perfect for martial arts for you, for MMA, because...... a lot of MMA is pattern recognition.

    21. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JR

      You get, you get a- a- accustomed to certain types of movements. "I know this guy's gonna do this. The calf kick's gonna be available. I'm gonna feint with this, and then I'm gonna throw that. I'm gonna shoot that double here because I know he's gonna come with the overhand right."

    23. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      All these patterns.

    25. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JR

      You don't have, you don't have normal patterns.

    27. MP

      At all.

    28. JR

      So, you're moving around, and your hands are down-

    29. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    30. JR

      ... you're sideways. They're like... And they have to make up new patterns-

  11. 31:14 – 33:00

    Sparring problems, exhausting feints, and why elite movement is rare in MMA

    1. MP

      It's weird though. It's a blessing and a curse. Uh, blessing, obviously, being ab- being... Having the advantages of a fight. But sparring, headache. Earlier, a lot of people wanted to kind of like, "Hmm, I wanna see what this is about." Then word spreads (snorts) quite quickly, and I struggle with sparring. I think it's starting to come back now. People are a bit more willing, but I struggled with sparring.

    2. JR

      You just couldn't get sparring?

    3. MP

      Couldn't get sparring 'cause-

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. MP

      Also, I... And I kinda see it from other people's point of view. It's like, "Well, why... I'm not gonna fight anybody like that, so why, why, why am I coming over?"

    6. JR

      Yeah, but if you saw that, if you, with your mindset-

    7. MP

      Yeah, I'm going over.

    8. JR

      ... you would be like, "I gotta figure out-"

    9. MP

      Yeah, 100%.

    10. JR

      "... what the fuck he's doing."

    11. MP

      100%.

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. MP

      And my teammates, they're forced to.

    14. JR

      Right.

    15. MP

      And a lot of them, they even say, like, "I'd spar you, and then I go spar someone else, and they feel so slow."

    16. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MP

      'Cause I'm... When I'm with you, my eyes are like this. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm forced-

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. MP

      ... to be, like, ultra alert. And then I go, and someone's throwing a punch. I'm like, "Oh." (laughs)

    20. JR

      That's the thing too, it's exhausting.

    21. MP

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      It's exhausting. Your style's exhausting because you always have to be at high alert.

    23. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      There's no moment... 'Cause there's so many times where you've done, like, like, a, a shift in rhythm-

    25. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JR

      ... and it looks like you're slowing down-

    27. MP

      Mm-hmm, and then speed back up.

    28. JR

      ... and then you explode and crack people.

    29. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    30. JR

      And you've done that so successfully so many times, that if they've watched any tape, there's... They know there's no s- there's no moments-

  12. 33:00 – 49:30

    Heavyweight and title-picture talk: Jon Jones, Aspinall, Ngannou, and Merab’s mindset

    1. MP

      No punch... Which is actually why I'm actually, uh, a big fan of, like, Tom Aspinall as well.

    2. JR

      Oh, yeah.

    3. MP

      'Cause you don't really see that anywhere full stop, but definitely not in the heavyweight division.

    4. JR

      No heavyweight moves like him.

    5. MP

      No one, no one moves out there, man.

    6. JR

      He moves like a 185-er.

    7. MP

      It's crazy.

    8. JR

      It's nuts.

    9. MP

      With that kind of explosive-

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. MP

      ... and that power, uh, it's crazy.

    12. JR

      Crazy speed for a heavyweight.

    13. MP

      Crazy speed. I'd love to see it.

    14. JR

      And that's why, like, the Jon Jones thing was being, you know-

    15. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JR

      Jon is one of the... If not the greatest fighter-

    17. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JR

      ... of all time.

    19. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    20. JR

      But he's not the fastest guy in the world.

    21. MP

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    22. JR

      He hasn't... But he's just so complete-

    23. MP

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      ... and his fight IQ is-

    25. MP

      Mm-hmm. Yep.

    26. JR

      ... off the charts.

    27. MP

      Yep, yep, yep.

    28. JR

      Off the charts. Like if you could-

    29. MP

      And very well-rounded.

    30. JR

      Very.

  13. 49:30 – 55:37

    Brand-building in MMA: why marketability matters as much as wins

    1. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's the thing. That's the, it's the marketability of people. This is what I knew I had to get right as well.

    2. JR

      Yes.

    3. MP

      And a lot of... I, I say that to my teammates as well. I'm like, "Do you know how you're gonna market yourself?" And they're, "Oh, no, just, you know, if I beat people up." It's like, it doesn't always just work. Unfortunately, it should, but it doesn't, that's not what's gonna get you... If I have to, as a promotion, uh, owner, I'm the person managing everything, I'm either gonna pick you that's beating everybody but nobody cares about, or this guy that's, you know, is pretty decent but everyone's making noise about. Gonna pick that guy. So you need to be able to market yourself. And I, I knew that from the jump, and this is before really social media was massive, massive as a, as a thing. But I said to myself, "Okay, I need to look in... How am I gonna market myself?" 'Cause we don't have that much time like on the mic. Uh, the, the interviews at the time, I don't feel like people got the recognition. People just cared about the fight. They just wanted to watch the fight, they didn't care what you said beforehand.

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. MP

      Unless you're arguing or shouting at each o- you know, there's, there's beef.

    6. JR

      Unless you grab that mic and go crazy.

    7. MP

      Yeah, yeah.

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. MP

      You gotta go crazy.

    10. JR

      Chael Sonnen was the first guy who figured it out.

    11. MP

      Oh, he's the best. Yeah, he was-

    12. JR

      He figured it out before anybody.

    13. MP

      He's the best. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    14. JR

      Anderson Silva!

    15. MP

      (laughs)

    16. JR

      You absolutely suck!

    17. MP

      (laughs)

    18. JR

      He's the best fighter pound for pound in the world.

    19. MP

      But he's still go-... This is why he's on the mic now.

    20. JR

      Yes, but it was-

    21. MP

      He's the best.

    22. JR

      ... perfect.

    23. MP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    24. JR

      It was perfect.

    25. MP

      But there was balance with that.

    26. JR

      He's, he's the king.

    27. MP

      There was, for me, there was a perfect balance. Like it, it wasn't too far.

    28. JR

      Right, right, right.

    29. MP

      It was, it was, it was exactly what you wanted.

    30. JR

      Right.

  14. 55:37 – 1:11:03

    UFC pressure, fight availability, and MVP’s path at 170 vs 185

    1. MP

      I, I, I personally, and obviously 'cause I've experienced it, for me, the first time I got nervous in an MMA fight was my first fight.

    2. JR

      In the UFC?

    3. MP

      No, my first fight.

    4. JR

      Ever? First fight ever?

    5. MP

      Ever. And then after that, I was like, "Oh, yeah, this is the same as when I was fighting in the kickboxing world. I'm, I'm cool." I didn't have any... I didn't get them nerves again. The first time again since then was the first f- no, no, sorry, weird enough, the second fight in the UFC against me and Garry. Now, the first fight, I don't know why, I just... I don't, I don't know what it was, but I was quite relaxed. And then the second fight, I was like, "Oh..." It, something, a reality hit me of like, "Oh, you're in the UFC. The people are gonna demand a certain thing from you." And you got a reputation of before of the knockouts, of the ce- of the celebrations, of the walk-ins, of the this, of the that. And then I just let that put weight on me.

    6. JR

      Really?

    7. MP

      Yeah, yeah.

    8. JR

      That's crazy that it was the second fight.

    9. MP

      I, I, I, I can't even explain as to why it was the second fight and not the first one. And then even the third fight, I still had that kind of, "Oh, man. I'm not performing the way I want." And I felt like I'm eager to impress.

    10. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. MP

      And I never felt like that in Bellator. But at the UFC, I'm like, "I'm trying my best to..." I, I literally had to sit-

    12. JR

      Isn't that crazy?

    13. MP

      Yes, it's weird.

    14. JR

      It's the same thing.

    15. MP

      It's the same thing.

    16. JR

      Same thing. Cage, cameras-

    17. MP

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      ... people.

    19. MP

      Same thing.

    20. JR

      Same thing.

    21. MP

      But I just... The magnitude of it, I don't know. I, I, I, I'm guessing.

    22. JR

      It's what we all grew up with.

    23. MP

      It's what everyone grows up with.

    24. JR

      Yeah.

    25. MP

      It's like-

    26. JR

      It's the thing.

    27. MP

      ... this is where, uh, like I said, there was always question marks around my name. Even... I was jump, jump knees and this and that. Always question marks around my name still, but then now I'm here, it's like, "Oh, actually, I can f-... These guys can respect me now, actually respect me now 'cause I'm here."

    28. JR

      Yes.

    29. MP

      And then I was just, like, trying too hard, trying too hard, trying too hard.

    30. JR

      Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:33:57

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