EVERY SPOKEN WORD
135 min read · 26,596 words- 0:02 – 1:45
Breakout win over Teofimo Lopez and Shakur’s “out-of-body” performance
- JRJoe Rogan
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out
- SPSpeaker
The Joe Rogan Experience
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat rock music] Well, uh, anyway, thanks for coming down here, man. Appreciate it.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And congratulations on that standout performance against Teofimo, because that was a, that was a giant wake-up call for the entirety of boxing.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The, the level that you're on was at so high that you could be in there with a world champion-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
... a world champion-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
... and make him look... A guy who beat-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... I mean, l- legit guys, including Lo- Lomachenko.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was a big victory for him, and you made him look like he had no business in there.
- SPSpeaker
Honestly, it's just hard work, dedication, and, um, God-given ability. God-given ability. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
I think you have all that, plus intelligence, plus you started real young. And there's something about-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... those dudes who start real young. You grow up with that.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's like in your central nervous system as you're a young child.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, what'd you start boxing at, like 5?
- SPSpeaker
I started boxing at 5 but honestly you could say the same for Teo too, 'cause he kinda started at, like, 7.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
We both was kinda similar in, like, experience, but I just feel like with me, the God-given ability or my instincts always kick in. Like, when we fought, I felt like my brain just knew how to win. Like, it just, everything was just like my instincts kicked in and everything just took over. Like, I didn't even... It w- it felt like a out-of-body experience.
- 1:45 – 2:04
Defense-first boxing: setting traps, minimizing damage, and career longevity
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you're a very tactical guy.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, you know, there's a thing, one of, one of the things I love about watching you fight is I love watching a guy who sets traps and who avoids damage, and you are one of the absolute very best ever at setting traps and avoid damage. You take so few punches in your fights.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- 2:04 – 5:37
The Zepeda fight: when forward pressure and judging force adjustments
- JRJoe Rogan
There was that one fight where you deci- recent fight where you decided to stand with that dude. Who was that? Um-
- SPSpeaker
William Zepeda.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's right.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Zepeda's a tough guy, man.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, he is.
- JRJoe Rogan
But you fought that a different way. Did you do that on purpose?
- SPSpeaker
Uh, it was partly on purpose and partly to get his respect.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
'Cause I really ain't have a choice but to get his respect, because if I'da tried to out-box him and move around the ring, I probably woulda made the fight harder than it had to be. So I knew, like, I gotta, like, make him respect me early, and that's what I kinda, like, started the fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hot. Why would it make it harder than it had to be if you boxed him?
- SPSpeaker
Because sometimes when you, like, a guy, like if you watch today's boxing, judges give the fight to mostly the guy that's coming forward. So if I'da went in there and backing up and moving around, around the ring while he was more active, it probably woulda looked as though he's winning the fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
So I had to make sure, like, the judges know who's winning. So I kinda had to take some in order to give some in that fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was a very unusual fight for you. I, I, I saw an interview with you after that fight where you're like, "I'm not fighting like that again. [laughs] Fuck that."
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Yeah, 'cause I know, like, I see, like, the modern day, like, the, the old school boxers and, like, the punishment that they taking and you'll see them today, they can't really talk as well as, like, like the Andre Wards and the Floyd Mayweathers-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- SPSpeaker
... who can talk good and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- SPSpeaker
... still articulate things-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Terrence
- SPSpeaker
... to they grand-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Right
- SPSpeaker
... to they grandchildren-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- SPSpeaker
... and to they children and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... for me personally, it's like I wanna make sure that I'm able to really speak well to my kids and my grandkids and all of that. So taking punishment ain't for me. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I support that 100%, and I applaud fighters like you for setting an example for young fighters coming up. Like, defense and tactics and understanding the game is the most important thing. These guys that wanna put on an entertaining fight and just go in there and slug it out, like, man, you are giving up your brain-
- SPSpeaker
Facts
- 5:37 – 11:31
‘Best in boxing’ mindset, discipline, and continuing to level up
- SPSpeaker
Uh, honestly, I, for me personally, I feel like I'm, like, the best fighter in boxing. And I don't, like, mean this in no disrespectful way, 'cause I got a lot of fighters in boxing that I still watch to this day that I like, and I'm like, okay, they ... I, I'ma steal this. Um, Usyk, I love Usyk. I love Usyk, I love Bivol. I love them, um, Eastern European styles.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
But, um, for me, like, I just feel like I'm a fighter that could do it all. Like, I can do it all. Like, whatever needs to be done-To get the job done, I can do that. So some nights you might see I might outbox people. Then some might, some nights I might stand there and beat a guy up and beat them at they own game. So, um, I think for me, I'm, I'm the most complete fighter in boxing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that mindset is what you need, especially in a sport where you've dominated divisions.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? So if you've dominated divisions and you're still looking to achieve a higher level, you can't just look at the guys that are your competitors.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because at 135 it was so hard for you to get fights.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
At 140 now, what are you gonna do? You just do that to Teofimo?
- SPSpeaker
It scared a lot of people. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Nobody wants to look stupid.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, Teofimo has had some good fights in the past, and he's lost in the past, but he's never looked out of place.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he looked out of place in that fight.
- SPSpeaker
It's crazy, though, 'cause when I seen him when he fought in New York on the, um, Times Square card, I'm like, "Man, this dude is nice." Like, I'm sitting there, I'm like, "Whoa." Like, I couldn't believe, like, how good he was. But it kinda, like, just made me get up. Like, I'm like, okay, I wanna-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... I wanna see, like, what he can do with me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
'Cause the way he made Arnold Barboza look in New York was, like, he just made him look like he's not on his level.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, he wasn't on his level.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
But then Teofimo's not on your level.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, this is the beautiful thing about competitive sports-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... especially boxing. This one-on-one, which I, I think is the purest form of competition, boxing and MMA, is that you can show that as great as a fighter is, like, people could watch the Teofimo fight and have no idea how good he is.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, for sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I would say, go watch the Barboza fight, go watch the Lomachenko fight.
- 11:31 – 18:58
Learning from Terence Crawford: sparring, observation, and elite preparation
- JRJoe Rogan
So that's it. Like, 28 to, like, 34 is the best ye- But then again, you look at Terence. I mean, he's at an age-
- SPSpeaker
I don't know how he do it
- JRJoe Rogan
... where a lot of people say it's over, and he put on-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
... the performance of his career against Canelo.
- SPSpeaker
I, I don't know how he do it. He's, like, a different human being, like.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's so smart.
- SPSpeaker
If I'm honest, he is, like, the reason ... I'm not gonna say he the reason why I am who I am today, but he brought my game from, like, where it was at to, like, a very high level, and he don't even realize, like, he done that. Like, me just being in the gym, able to watch him and pick up on, like, the little things that he doing, his bad days, his good days, his ... I'm seeing everything. And, like, when he come out there on fight night, how prepared and how ready, how confident. Like, honestly-That dude kinda, he put me into a whole different world to now to where I'm like, "Oh, I can, I can beat anybody." I get in there with Terence Crawford and if I can spar with him, I can... How you gonna hurt me?
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
How you gonna... How? How you gonna beat me?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- SPSpeaker
... I'm in the ring with the best fighter in the world, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
One of the best of all time
- SPSpeaker
... you feel me? [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, one of the best of all, and one of the most versatile of all time.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because that's a guy who switches up left, right, and you know-
- SPSpeaker
There's nothing he can't do in a boxing ring.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nothing.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Nothing he can't do. And the way he sets people up, I... We were talking during the podcast I did with him, he did this one sneaky thing where he was throwing a straight left, and then Canelo would go to counter, and he, he would hook it right off of the punch.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Like on the extension, Canelo would lean back to counter-
- SPSpeaker
And he-
- JRJoe Rogan
... and bop.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
And catch him on the chin. You could see it. It's like, oh my God, that's pretty.
- SPSpeaker
I've never seen him throw that punch until Canelo though. That's the crazy part. [laughs]
- 18:58 – 22:08
Andre Ward as mentor: technical guidance, career choices, and legacy wins
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? So he's got a bunch of lawsuits where he owes money. You know, Logan Paul says he owes him money. He owes money for some other things. I don't know. I'm with you, I don't know. But it's also, it's like I like a guy like Andre Ward. I like a guy who goes out on top and, you know, they offered Andre a ton of money to come back and fight Canelo after Canelo beat Kovalev.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he was like, "You know what? I think I serve boxing better as a commentator and a spokesperson for the sport. I made plenty of money. I'm undefeated. Two division world champion, Olympic gold medalist. Bye-bye." That's it. All faculties intact. No worries about his brain health and everything like that. That's the way to go out.
- SPSpeaker
Andre Ward is another dude who, uh, helped my career. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- SPSpeaker
He helped my career a lot, too. He, um... If I had to... If I need a q- if I need something, right? Let's say I need something and I need to figure out how to do it or what to do in a situation with weight or whatever it is when it come to boxing. If I'm calling Andre Ward, he gonna give you the best explanation. Like, out of all the guys, like, he explains things from detail. Like, he gonna detail it and make me really understand what I gotta do. Like, um, Andre Ward is somebody who I looked up to since a kid, so he another guy. I just wasn't around him enough in the gym as I was around Bud.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
But, like, Andre Ward was my favorite fighter as a amateur. Like, I came up-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, really?
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, most people don't know that Andre Ward fought most of his career with one arm.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is crazy.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. But-
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is crazy
- SPSpeaker
... that one arm is his best arm.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
He's left-handed for real, for real, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Y- but it's still crazy.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] It is. It is.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's still crazy.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Think about all the guys he beat, and he beat them with a left hand.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then finally got shoulder surgery, and then had a right hand. It's still, still kinda fucked up. It's not 100%.
- SPSpeaker
You know the misconception about his career? I feel like when he beat Kovalev, people don't realize how good Kovalev was.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, he was good in the day.
- SPSpeaker
Like, he was insanely-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... like-
- 22:08 – 25:09
Why some superfights never happen: sparring Lomachenko and shared gym politics
- JRJoe Rogan
He's got such an amazing style. I mean, him, uh, Usyk. Lomachenko's kind of a c- a k- that's a fight I really wish would've happened between you and him, man.
- SPSpeaker
Ah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was there ever talk about that?
- SPSpeaker
I messed myself up. I kinda did this to myself, so I understand, um, why a lot of fighters wouldn't fight me. A lot of fighters wouldn't fight me because I sparred them. And like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And I messed myself up. Like, I, I, when I was trying to spar him at that time, I never thought it would be a day of me and him fighting. Like, I didn't think that far down the line. I really was just thinking he was the best fighter in boxing, number one pound for pound. I wanna be able to go get in the ring with him and see what, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- SPSpeaker
... how I can do. Like, they told me they wasn't even gonna pay me for the sparring. I'm like, "Okay, I'm cool. I don't wanna get paid. I, I'm just here to get in the ring with Lomachenko." But, um, years later, yeah, the fight-
- JRJoe Rogan
How'd that go?
- SPSpeaker
How the sparring went?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I think, um, see I don't, I don't diss nobody in sparring, so I can't say that.
- JRJoe Rogan
But you don't have to diss him.
- SPSpeaker
Aight, I'll keep it real with the sparring.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- SPSpeaker
I felt like I was outboxing him, but I also knew the level he was on was, like, his conditioning. And that's when I, it made me like, okay, I gotta be in, like, tip-top conditioning. 'Cause the first day we sparred we did six rounds. I felt like it was like, okay, I can outbox him. The next time we sparred he made me do 12 straight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
12.
- SPSpeaker
So when he made me do 12 straight, for the first eight I'm good. Like, I'm, I'm good for eight. But, like, the last four rounds, I wanna say, he started, like, picking up the pace and he ain't get off on me, but he got the better of the, um, last four rounds, I would say.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you feel like it was a, because of fatigue a little bit?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it, it was for sure because of fatigue. But it wasn't, like, the skills. Like, skillfully, I felt like I was the better fighter. Like, I felt like my range and my distance and my speed was kinda better than his. But, like, from a standpoint of being in shape and throwing more punches, I felt like he was kinda ... But he was getting ready for his fight. I was getting ready for my fight, too, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's a very valuable learning experience, right?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, uh, better to learn it then-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... than to learn it in a fight.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, but-For real, for real, it messed me up because now it's like if I'm Lomachenko and I know he was, what, 126 pounds at the time, he was a kid. Now I see him all grown up, he bigger, stronger, and I seen what he was doing as a kid, I'd probably be like, "Why would I test the water with him?" Like I, I wouldn't really want to see that guy. That's not the guy I would want to see, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's funny. Um, so you think that those sparring matches were the reason why you never got a fight with him?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, for sure.
- 25:09 – 29:29
Teofimo’s strengths, corner dynamics, and how humiliating losses change fighters
- SPSpeaker
I was surprised Teo, uh, fought me, honestly. I was very surprised.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you spar him as well?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
But when we sparred, we only did three rounds, but he made it seem like he kinda got off on me, but honestly I felt like I was the better fighter.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, Teo's a very headstrong guy.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, he's tough.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's very, very tough.
- SPSpeaker
Tough.
- JRJoe Rogan
Very confident guy. I mean, look, when he beat Lomachenko, that was a standout performance. He had that piston jab, man.
- SPSpeaker
Ooh, he was sharp.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oof, he was sharp in that fight.
- SPSpeaker
I watched that fight 1,000 times before my fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I just think he knew that Lomachenko was a ghost. He was so hard to hit, and just he came out explosive.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I just think-
- JRJoe Rogan
He looked so good in that fight
- SPSpeaker
... uh, Lomachenko had the speed to like get h- get his respect.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Like I feel like Teo was kinda faster and he knew like from a speed standpoint he was gonna use it to his advantage.
- JRJoe Rogan
Also, Teo was a lot bigger.
- SPSpeaker
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he was dangerous.
- SPSpeaker
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like he was throwing danger with every punch.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Even that jab had danger behind it.
- SPSpeaker
It was crazy. I felt like he was strong when I was fighting him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, he's strong as fuck, man.
- SPSpeaker
Everybody think that he wasn't, but I'm like, "Man, I ain't gonna lie." It was some shots like I would catch on the glove and I'd be like, "I don't know what you, [laughs] what you doing in your training, bro," [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- 29:29 – 35:01
Pressure under the lights: gym fighters vs fight-night performers and Shakur’s mindset
- SPSpeaker
But that's boxing. That's what can happen in this world. I done seen that happen plenty of times. And, um, honestly it be some guys that I see in the gym that I'm like, "Bro, if you do that stuff on fight night, bro, you probably be champion of the world." Like it's a lot of gym fighters who really got talent, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... when them bright lights come on, a lot of fighters be kinda different.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what do you think that is?
- SPSpeaker
I think it's pressure. I think it's nerves. I think it's like, it's a lot. It's a lot. 'Cause I know I felt it. Like I felt it for my fight with, um, Teo. I felt pressure. I felt all of that kind of stuff, but I'm too tough. Like I know my mental ain't gonna... It's me or that person at the end of the day, my life or your life, and I'm gonna choose my life when it come down to it. So, um, I was good. But I know it's a lot of fighters that I see in the gym and I'm like, "Man, I don't understand how you don't perform like this on under the lights."
- JRJoe Rogan
There's always guys like that.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
There's always guys that are potential world champions in the gym and, you know, some people bank on them and some-You know, you go, this guy just needs a mental coach, needs something-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... to get him over that hump. But i- it's always interesting to me, 'cause what is the difference between a guy who could just walk out there on fight da- day and perform at 100% of his ability versus a guy who gets dwarfed by the moment? The moment comes, the big pressure-
- SPSpeaker
Mental
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It's all mental. It's all in your head.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Like, what you thinking and what you believing and the things that's going on in your brain is what's gonna come out. Like, I'm already telling myself, like I said, I tell myself, "It's either me or him, so my life or your life, and one of us gotta go."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] One of us gotta go.
- JRJoe Rogan
But what do you think is going on in the... I mean, everybody experiences pressure, everybody f- experiences nerves, but what is it about fighters that are so talented that let that overcome them versus fighters oftentimes that maybe not even as talented, but they rise to the occasion when those lights are on? When those lights are on, there are fighters that fight better... Like, sometimes they look shit in the gym.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then when those bright lights are on-
- SPSpeaker
I done had moments like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- SPSpeaker
I done had moments where I'm like, "Man, I, I felt bad in the gym. I don't know what... I had this camp, this was a horrible camp." And then fight night come and I'm like on point.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you know, that's what they said about Ali when he fought George Foreman.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They said he looked terrible in the gym, and everybody was nervous about him, but-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... he had a strategy.
- SPSpeaker
I think with, like, some fighters, it's fear. Like, I think it's fear of, like, losing or fear of the negative happening, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm
- 35:01 – 38:07
Fame, family priorities, and building a life beyond boxing money traps
- JRJoe Rogan
So family's a big thing for you?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, family is everything for me. Like, I enjoy spending time with my family. Like, I'm not like a lot of these boxers. Like, with all due respect to them, they like the fame, the s- all that kinda stuff, the cars, the... I'm more so like, I get a big check, I wanna go on vacay with my family or go chill with my family and I don't like doing stuff. Like, I enjoy spending time with my daughter.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's great. That is-
- SPSpeaker
Like, I'm different. I'm not like them guys. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's so smart.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
It's so smart, because all that other shit just drains your bank account, distracts you from your goals, gets in the way of things.
- SPSpeaker
It's like, when I was a kid, I used to want the fame. I used to be like, "Oh, I wanna be famous. I want-
- JRJoe Rogan
Of course
- SPSpeaker
... everybody to know me." But it's like, once you get it, it's like, ah, I don't like this. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I don't like this. Like, you go places, people pulling their phones out, and, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's weird, right?
- SPSpeaker
... they trying to record you. Like, bro, why you? I'm just a regular person. Like, that's how I feel. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... everybody bleeds. We all the same. We all human. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- SPSpeaker
... so I kinda move with that kinda thought process, and I feel like a lot of people don't move with that, like, especially people in my position.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you can get inflated. Your, your head can get screwy. It's like you gotta balance two things at the same time. One, you are the elite of the elite. You are a world champion and one of the pound for pound best to ever do it, and then on top of that, you're just a human being.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And we're all just human beings.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
But-What we like, what people love about watching championship caliber fighters and championship performances in, in any sport is watching just a regular human do something extraordinary.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that gives us inspiration.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like when I watch a great fight, I feel better for the rest of the day.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like when I go to bed, I feel great.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, for sure.
- 38:07 – 47:11
Modern boxing business: Ryan Garcia, weight classes, rehydration clauses, and potential matchups
- JRJoe Rogan
That Times Square card was weird.
- SPSpeaker
He was the best fighter on the card.
- JRJoe Rogan
100%.
- SPSpeaker
No question.
- JRJoe Rogan
It looked like everybody was playing it safe on that card.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it did. It did. I-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like Devin Haney, the Devin Haney fight was odd.
- SPSpeaker
I learned, what I learned from that card, I felt like, I felt like them fighters didn't have enough adrenaline pumping. Like, I feel like Ryan, I know when he got in the ring, his adrenaline couldn't been like too high because it was like sparring. Like, it was like not a lot of people there. It wasn't like that much pressure. You could hear everything somebody is saying. I know Ryan heard me all night. Like he had to hear me. I was cheering him on, like telling him like, "Man, throw the hook, throw the hook, throw the hook," but-
- JRJoe Rogan
That was when he fought Rolly, right?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. That was a wake up call, too.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like that was another fight where people did not expect Rolly to beat Ryan.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I'd be throwing off. I, I didn't expect it either. That was one, one of the fights where I kinda like vouched for Ryan. I'm like, "Man, he got skills. He is a skillful fighter." Then he got in there and I don't know what he was doing. Like I didn't understand what was happening.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, it's one of them things where he has the fight with Devin. He beats Devin, gets popped, you know, for whatever he was on, Ostarine, and then there's like, he's got a long time off. There's a lot of people mad at him.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's a lot of people, you know ... Which is a, such an unfortunate thing if you think about his performance against Devin because that was incredible.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, but the problem is he got caught. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
He got caught. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So like, I don't know. Like for me personally, if you got caught, it's like I can't really ... Me, I can't give you the credit for that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
I don't, I don't give him credit for that day with, that night with Devin.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, but steroids don't help you land punches.
- SPSpeaker
I get you.
- JRJoe Rogan
They help you recover in training. They help you train a little harder. They might give you a little bit more power, but that left hook was on point.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, but that little bit of more power probably wasn't enough to hurt Devin. 'Cause if you really watch the fight and pay attention to the fight, and people not, might not agree with me on this, but I feel like Devin was winning the moments that was quiet.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Like when people was not really, "Ah."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
Devin is winning most of the like boxing match other, but the moments where Ryan was so loud and like everybody got to see him get hurt and knocked down-
- 47:11 – 1:17:30
From amateurs to pros: dirty tactics, ‘pillow hands’ criticism, and being a boxer vs a fighter
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you remember your first pro fight? You remember what it felt like?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. It felt like a whole new experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, um.
- JRJoe Rogan
How so?
- SPSpeaker
I've been... When I was in the amateurs, guys wasn't as, like, dirty as the professionals. Like, you don't get introduced into dirty boxing until you turn professional.
- JRJoe Rogan
Didn't you get head-butted in your first fight?
- SPSpeaker
I got headbut-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
He headbutted me, and that's what kinda-
- JRJoe Rogan
On purpose, right?
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not an accidental headbutt.
- SPSpeaker
That's what kinda make me say, "Okay, I understand. This is a whole different atmosphere." It's not the same, um, amateur and the pros. And a lot of guys from the amateurs don't adjust to the pros as well as I did, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. Well, it's all about styles, right? Like, there's some guys who have styles that are just much better for point fighting and fighting amateurs.
- SPSpeaker
Nah, it's actually, um... You gotta develop a lot of things, like, um, punch placement. Like, punching hard is really a real thing in the pros. Like, you gotta have something to make somebody respect you. That's why when I hear people say like, "I got pillow hands," I'm like, "Y'all clearly must not be watching."
- JRJoe Rogan
Who's saying that?
- SPSpeaker
Uh, it be a lot of people. They say, "I got pillow hands."
- JRJoe Rogan
No, you just fight smart.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's the thing.
- SPSpeaker
But I don't understand it, 'cause it's like, if I had pillow hands, right, why guys don't just go in there and just knock me out? Like, if I'm fighting somebody with pillow hands, I'm just gonna put my, my shield up and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... just swing for the fences-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... 'cause they can't hurt me. Like...
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
I don't understand why nobody wanna do that it, if I got pillow hands.
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't have pillow hands. That's nonsense talk.What you have is a, a boxing intelligence where you know when to hit full blast and when to just touch them up and crack them a little bit.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- 1:17:30 – 1:24:18
Training like an analyst: film review, journaling, and learning from anyone (even kids)
- JRJoe Rogan
So do you do that? Do you watch-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... your sparring sessions?
- SPSpeaker
I learned that from him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- SPSpeaker
I used to really never used to do that, but I had seen him, um, I forget what, um, sparring session he was watching on, I wanna say on his iPad, and he was watching it. And then I seen him spar the next time, and I'm like, "Ooh, he look like a million bucks." Like, the adjustments that he made was just, um, insane, so I started doing the same thing. I'm like, if I have a day I don't like, I go home, "Why did I have this day? Oh my God, I keep doing that. Why do I keep doing that? Okay, I'm not doing that no more. Oh, I can hit him with this. I see that, that shot is open. Okay, now I'ma hit him with this shot." And, um, I think that, that helps me tremendously.
- JRJoe Rogan
That makes sense, like, watching yourself as an observer-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... the way you would watch an opponent.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You gotta see what you do good and, like, what you do bad.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And correct the things that you do bad, 'cause-
- JRJoe Rogan
Instead of just remembering it-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... from the training.
- SPSpeaker
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Watching it. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, 'cause I have, like, a bad habit sometimes when I'm, like, in a boxing gym. I'll, like, I'll fight. I don't have, like... I don't know why I will get in there, and sometimes I'll just turn into a fighter instead of realizing that I'm a boxer. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And then sometimes I get hit with shots, and I'm like, "Oh, why am I getting hit with that shot?" I'm like, "I know." My mental, my brain was already locked in on fighting-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... instead of being locked in on boxing, and then you fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
So explain to people what is the difference between your mentality fighting and your mentality as a boxer.
- SPSpeaker
When I'm fighting-I'm emotional
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Like, and I don't wanna be emotional, but I'm emotional, and then I'm fighting somebody. I'm trying to, like, beat them up, and I'm having a contest of who's the, the bigger and stronger guy. And when I'm boxing, I'm just on top of my game, and it's like I'm able to hit you, and you not able to hit me, and that's what I do best. So I try to, like, stick with what I do best. And it's gonna be a time to fight, so I have that in my arsenal for sure, but I don't like just doing it for no reason.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you sometimes feel yourself getting emotional in a fight and have to pull it back?
- SPSpeaker
I never had it happen in a fight, but-
- 1:24:18 – 1:43:09
Boxing knowledge as books: documenting technique, mentorship, and ‘free game’
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's a great attitude to have. I'm glad you say you journal, because this is one of the things that I wanted to bring up. I wish more boxers were interested in writing books, because I think there's some of the things that you're talking about today, and some of the things you're talking about in terms of, like, watching yourself, analyzing yourself, things you've learned, that would be very, very valuable if it's written down. But boxing knowledge is all word of mouth in the gym.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's all people who know things tell other people, and they learn things, and e- and you gotta go to these gyms and talk to these people.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Or you get boxing knowledge from the commentators. Like Andre Ward will spit it out.
- SPSpeaker
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Or Roy Jones will spit it out.
- SPSpeaker
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, that is where boxing knowledge gets sort of recorded.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But I think it would be great if boxers could sit down and write just on boxing. Because you think about, like, what a huge sport boxing is. Huge sport. Like, one of the pinnacles of sports, of combat sports. But yet there's not a lot of b-... books written about technique and style, and how they learn things, and what they learned, and why, and what changed, and, "I learned that in this fight. In this fight, this changed, and I adjusted this about my training sessions. And I heard Emmanuel Steward talk about over-training, and so I realized maybe I was doing that."
- SPSpeaker
It is one book.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is it?
- SPSpeaker
Andre Ward book.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that's right. Andre Ward book.
- SPSpeaker
People gotta read it, but, um, I'm not fully done with it either. But as I read through some of it, he's giving out some free game. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... it's free game [laughs] in there that people could go listen to and, and read it and check it out, 'cause it's definitely, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did he read it for the audiobook?
- SPSpeaker
Uh, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I know I got the actual book, so I just read it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
But I didn't f- I didn't finish it. I won't say that I finished it, but ...
- JRJoe Rogan
But he talks all about those things?
- SPSpeaker
It's a lot of things in there that's, like, free game. Like, okay, ooh, I like that. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
I might take that. Like, if you're training, even if you're training a fighter, like, you're training a fighter, it's something that I saw that he said that I'm like, okay, I'ma, I'ma, I'ma take that if I'm, uh, training fighters.
- JRJoe Rogan
Narrated by Andre Ward, perfect. Killing the Image: A Champion's Journey Fighting and Forgiveness. He's the perfect guy to do that, too, 'cause like I said, he's the guy that did it right.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know?
- SPSpeaker
And he help you understand.
- 1:43:09 – 1:59:51
PEDs and combat-sport ethics: testing, cycling, MMA’s ‘Wild West,’ and VADA requirements
- JRJoe Rogan
And I don't know how he went up. I don't wanna, you know... It's hard for a guy in his 30s to put on that kind of muscle.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And generally, you have some help.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
So generally, some Mexican supplement's involved.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Oh my God.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so the problem is-
- SPSpeaker
He tookasterine. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] Once you have taken that stuff and then you stop taking it because you wanna go back to your normal weight, your whole endocrine system gets fucked up. This is the problem with juicersGuys who take juice, w- the thing that happens is-
- SPSpeaker
Man, don't tell me this. Oh, Lord. No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Listen, I'm not saying this about Roy.
- SPSpeaker
Okay, okay, okay, okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
What I'm saying is about fighters in general.
- SPSpeaker
We good, we good.
- JRJoe Rogan
We just talking in general.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] We good, we good.
- JRJoe Rogan
Fighters that gain weight and p- uh, and have lean muscle and put on that kind of mass-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... generally they're doing it with some kind of supplement, some kind of either steroids or something that juices up your endocrine system, whether it is, uh-
- SPSpeaker
And did it help you gain weight?
- JRJoe Rogan
... peptides. Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Damn, I never heard of this.
- JRJoe Rogan
You didn't know?
- SPSpeaker
Nah. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
What? Come on, man. You don't... For real?
- SPSpeaker
Nah, I didn't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, come on. There's a lot of fighters that took stuff.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, I know. No, I know that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I know that people is cheating.
- 1:59:51 – 2:12:15
Wilder’s eraser power and today’s best matchups (Bivol, Benavidez, Beterbiev)
- JRJoe Rogan
The, the thing about boxing is, uh, punching power, you can enhance your punching power, but that crazy punching power-
- SPSpeaker
You born with it
- JRJoe Rogan
... that's a gift.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, you're born with it. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, you're born with it. Like Earnie Shavers type poc- punching power-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... or Deontay.
- SPSpeaker
Wilder.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wilder.
- SPSpeaker
Oh my God.
- JRJoe Rogan
The greatest example ever.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Oh my God.
- JRJoe Rogan
One shot with Teddy Atlas is the best example. He called it the eraser. All the mistakes you made, it doesn't matter.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, 'cause I sit there and watch Wilder, and I'm like, "Dog, it's some fights that I see him not punch at all until the shot is there."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And when the shot is there-
- JRJoe Rogan
Pop
- SPSpeaker
... he got you, it's over. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
It's crazy how hard he hits.
- SPSpeaker
It's over. It's over.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, he might be the greatest one-punch knockout artist in the history of the heavyweight division.
- SPSpeaker
I think he is. I think it is, like, no question. Like, he is probably the hardest puncher to ever box.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's up there. I mean, Earnie Shavers back in the day, they-
- SPSpeaker
Punch harder than Wilder?
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow, they all said Earnie Shavers was the ... Like, even Ali said nobody hit harder than Earnie Shavers.
- SPSpeaker
Wilder.
- JRJoe Rogan
I know, I know.
- SPSpeaker
I don't think so. [laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
And the thing about Wilder, too, is he's not big.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
Episode duration: 2:12:15
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Transcript of episode 6VFZlIwwRKc
