JRE MMA Show #176 with Dustin Poirier

Speaker 0:02 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.

Joe Rogan 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Speaker 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music] What up, bro?

Joe Rogan 0:13 What's happening, bro?

Speaker 0:13 Good to see you, my friend.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Good to be back, bro.

Speaker 0:15 Dustin Poirier, the light heavyweight.

Joe Rogan 0:17 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 0:18 [laughs] It's, it's thick boy summer.

Joe Rogan 0:20 You looking healthy, son.

Speaker 0:22 Yeah, like 190, man.

Joe Rogan 0:23 You look good, man.

Speaker 0:24 I feel good, dude. It feels good to eat and not count carbohydrates and calories.

Joe Rogan 0:27 Yeah, we were talking about that. Were you, like, still, like, a little part of you is, like, looks at meals and goes, "Uh..."

Speaker 0:33 Well, I mean, for the last 20 years, I've been macro and, you know, I knew I had a fight coming up. Even if I didn't have a fight, I had to be in striking range from 155.

Joe Rogan 0:41 Right.

Speaker 0:41 So I was always looking at the back of every label, being real cautious of what I eat. It's, like, ingrained in my daughter now. When we go to Whole Foods, she'll grab something off the counter and say, "Dad, it only has three ingredients." Like, she knows what's up.

Joe Rogan 0:52 Well, it's good to think that way anyway.

Speaker 0:54 For sure.

Joe Rogan 0:54 E- especially with the ingredients, you know?

Speaker 0:57 Yeah, she, that's the first thing she goes to. Like, if she wants some chips, "It only has five ingredients." That's, like, a thing-

Joe Rogan 1:02 Well, good

Speaker 1:02 ... for her when we're shopping.

Joe Rogan 1:04 Yeah. Well, that's smart, man. That's cool. You're raising them right.

Speaker 1:07 I'm trying to, bro.

Joe Rogan 1:08 [laughs]

Speaker 1:08 I'm trying to put the stuff I learned in fighting, you know, all the years-

Joe Rogan 1:11 Yeah

Speaker 1:11 ... to good use.

Joe Rogan 1:12 It's, uh, it, it is kind of crazy. I think it's the worst thing about fighting, is the weight cutting. Do you imagine-

Speaker 1:19 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:19 ... if everybody just ... First of all, I, tell me if you agree, but I think the UFC needs way more weight classes.

Speaker 1:25 I, I do, too.

Joe Rogan 1:26 Way more.

Speaker 1:27 I do, too. Because the gaps are so big. I mean, just if you look at boxing compared to mixed martial arts, the, the, the jumps in weight are so big from each weight class. But also, all the shows they're putting on, they'd have more titles, more belts-

Joe Rogan 1:40 Yeah

Speaker 1:41 ... more big fights. But also, man, with that, there's gonna be a lot of people trying to cut a little bit extra, trying to be double champ in every weight class. I think it, it does cause more confusion.

Joe Rogan 1:50 Yeah, but that's better than the extreme weight cuts. The extreme weight cuts are ter- did, you saw that dude a few, um, like, uh, like, I guess it was about three events ago, who face planted-

Speaker 2:01 Oh, yeah. Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:01 ... and got removed off the card?

Speaker 2:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:02 That is crazy. You're getting someone to the brink of death 24 hours before they have an MMA fight, which is the most, if not the most dangerous sport, one of the most dangerous sports in the world.

Speaker 2:14 For sure.

Joe Rogan 2:14 And, and you're doing something to your body to extremely weaken it 24 hours before you fight. It's bananas.

Speaker 2:21 Dude, I did it so many times.

Joe Rogan 2:22 It makes no sense.

Speaker 2:22 You're preaching to the choir. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:23 I know. But I mean-

Speaker 2:24 There's been so many times I've felt like that, like, stand up too quick after a weight cut and I'm like-

Joe Rogan 2:28 Uh-huh

Speaker 2:28 ... "You know, I, I might go down."

Joe Rogan 2:29 Oh, dude, I, I mean, I can only imagine. When you see someone like Pereira that's cutting, like, 25 pounds and more.

Speaker 2:36 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:36 When he was 185, I mean, that guy was fighting inside the octagon at 225-

Speaker 2:43 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:43 ... and weighing in at 185 24 hours before.

Speaker 2:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 2:48 That's crazy.

Speaker 2:49 And even when he's big, he's lean. You know?

Joe Rogan 2:51 Yeah.

Speaker 2:51 It's not like he's fluffy. Fluffy guy.

Joe Rogan 2:52 Well, they say that when you're muscular, it's easier to cut weight.

Speaker 2:58 More water.

Joe Rogan 2:58 'Cause it's water.

Speaker 2:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:59 Yeah, which is c- counterintuitive. You see a fat guy and you're like, "Oh, that guy can cut weight," but you really can't 'cause you can't deplenish, uh, deplenish your fat.

Speaker 3:08 Right, not in, in a training camp's time, 8 weeks, 10 weeks, you can't lose, like, 30 pounds of fat, but-

Joe Rogan 3:13 I don't think deplenish-

Speaker 3:14 ... you can dehydrate

Joe Rogan 3:14 ... I said deplenish like it was a real word.

Speaker 3:15 You can dehydrate yourself.

Joe Rogan 3:17 I don't think it is a word. Deplenish?

3:19 Well, well, if you can replenish.

3:20 Right. But no one says deplenish.

Speaker 3:22 Can you plenish?

Joe Rogan 3:23 No. You say deplete.

3:24 Oh.

3:24 But I just threw it out there like it was real.

Speaker 3:26 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 3:27 I don't think deplenish [laughs] is a word.

3:29 Eh.

3:29 Is that a word?

3:30 Yeah.

3:30 It is?

3:31 Yeah.

3:31 I don't think I've ever used it that way.

Speaker 3:33 It's a verb to lose weight.

Joe Rogan 3:33 Oh, okay.

Speaker 3:34 Nice, man.

Joe Rogan 3:35 Nice.

Speaker 3:35 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 3:36 I got lucky.

3:36 [laughs]

3:36 That was just luck. Um, but y- I talked to Hunter about it, Hunter Campbell, and w- we're, we're trying to figure out a way, um, without ... It has to be more weight classes. I mean, California instituted a bunch of different weight classes. I think, um, th- I think they were doing it every 10 pounds.

Speaker 3:54 I think California also did, like, a percentage of your, your body weight.

Joe Rogan 3:57 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3:58 Like, I don't, what was it, 15, 20% you couldn't-

Joe Rogan 4:00 Yes

Speaker 4:00 ... dehydrate more than that.

Joe Rogan 4:01 That guy Andy Foster is on the ball.

Speaker 4:04 And I think that's good, you know?

Joe Rogan 4:05 Yeah.

Speaker 4:05 20% or, or whatever, some kind of rule where guys aren't cutting 50 pounds, 40 pounds.

Joe Rogan 4:10 20% is still crazy. Yeah, it's still crazy.

Speaker 4:12 I mean, if you're 2-

Joe Rogan 4:13 It's a lot of weight

Speaker 4:13 ... yeah, you're right.

Joe Rogan 4:14 It's a lot of weight.

Speaker 4:14 200 pounds, 40 pounds. I mean ...

Joe Rogan 4:16 It's a lot of weight. Well, a- that's another thing that freaks boxers out when I tell them that there's a weight limit at heavyweight. They're like-

Speaker 4:23 265

Joe Rogan 4:23 ... "That doesn't make any sense." I go, "I agree."

Speaker 4:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:27 Why is there a weight limit for heavyweight? That's crazy.

Speaker 4:31 Dude, at th- that, that gap, too. Like, 205, anything over that, you can be 210 to 265, that's crazy.

Joe Rogan 4:38 Crazy. That doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 4:39 A 50-pound gap that you, you know, but ...

Joe Rogan 4:41 Well, heavyweight in boxing, like, look, Mike Tyson, when he was in his prime, was only, like, 220. 215, 220.

Speaker 4:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:48 You know, that's where he, when he was dominating, that's where he kinda fell, in that weight limit.

Speaker 4:54 I wouldn't ... I think it would be a good idea anything past, like, 230, 235, super heavyweight.

Joe Rogan 4:58 Yeah.

Speaker 4:59 You know?

Joe Rogan 4:59 Well, the difference in boxing, though, is the grappling. The grappling in MMA, the gap if a guy gets on top of you is immense.

Speaker 5:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:07 If you got a f- like, Ngannou, when he was in his prime, was weighing over, like, 300 pounds-

Speaker 5:12 Mm

Joe Rogan 5:12 ... and then cutting down to 265. He was a 300-pound natural.

Speaker 5:17 He's a guy who's, like, uh, knockdown power for sure, but grappling, like, if you get a big guy who's 265 and knows how to grapple very well, wrestled his whole life, if they get in side control or-

Joe Rogan 5:27 Oh, yeah

Speaker 5:27 ... half guard, you're not getting up.

Joe Rogan 5:29 No.

Speaker 5:29 That's the end of the round.

Joe Rogan 5:30 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5:32 Also, if they did do a super heavy, the fights might be either awesome or just completely suck.

Joe Rogan 5:37 Well, I think it should be, heavyweight should be unlimited, and then you'll find out.

Speaker 5:41 Like I do.

Joe Rogan 5:41 Yeah. Because, like, Cain Velasquez, no one's holding that dude down in his prime.

Speaker 5:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:45 Even when he was 240. When he was 240 and he fought Lesnar, Lesnar was gigantic, but it didn't matter because the cardio that Cain had, and the speed, and his technique sort of, it, it bo-

Speaker 5:57 He was ahead of his time, man.

Joe Rogan 5:58 Yeah. He was ahead of his time.

Speaker 5:59 He was ahead of his ... He was like a hybrid, can do everythingGreat cardio, good athlete before MMA got to where it's at now.

Joe Rogan 6:05 Yeah. The one fight that I always say that we missed is Cain and Fedor in their primes.

Speaker 6:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:10 'Cause they were both in their prime at the same time, and they never made that happen.

Speaker 6:14 When UFC absorbed the, the Pride roster and stuff, I was crazy, it's crazy that Fedor never fought in the UFC at all, man.

Joe Rogan 6:21 Well, it was a, they tried. The UFC tried.

Speaker 6:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:24 But Fedor's management were a bunch of very dangerous dudes.

Speaker 6:27 Yeah, you don't mess around with those guys.

Joe Rogan 6:28 [laughs] Fucking, yeah, man. There was, like, tense negotiations, and they wanted a percentage of the promotion. They wanted a lot more than just a big purse.

Speaker 6:37 Yeah, UFC's not playing that game.

Joe Rogan 6:38 No.

Speaker 6:39 No.

Joe Rogan 6:39 They were like, "Look, we'll give you, you know, a very healthy purse. We'll bring Fedor over here." But the problem was, when they purchased Pride, they thought they were getting everyone's contracts, but the contracts were all bullshit.

Speaker 6:50 Well, some guys came over on crazy, crazy money contracts.

Joe Rogan 6:53 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 6:53 You know?

Joe Rogan 6:54 Yeah.

Speaker 6:54 I think Dan Henderson might've been one. I was a young fighter one time, and I was making, this might've been 2013 or something, 2014, I don't know, and, um, they came to give me my check. This is back in the day before they wired. They used to give us checks on fight night. And, uh, they had, were going through the checks, and I saw Dan's, and I saw the number, and I couldn't believe it. This is before, like, people posting online fighter pay and all that, and I saw the numbers he was making. I was like, "No way. Guy's rich." [laughs]

Joe Rogan 7:22 Does it make you angry?

Speaker 7:23 Nah. Nah, because the future, myself looking back, or looking forward, when guys are gonna be fighting for belts and stuff, the money they're gonna make in five years, I'ma be, I'ma be that guy. Like, damn, you know, I got out too early, or, you know how it is. The next generation always gets more.

Joe Rogan 7:38 Right.

Speaker 7:38 Mike Brown tells me that all the time. "Dude, you, I was fighting for the belt in WEC, defending it, making this. You guys on the prelims are making more than I was making," you know?

Joe Rogan 7:47 Yeah, there's a weird, uh, th- that sort of discussion about fighter pay, you know, I've, I've always been of the opinion that fighters should be making more money, period because, like, the same way I feel about, like, the way I run my comedy club, the comedians make 80% of the money 'cause I feel like that's who's, you're paying to see. You're paying to see them. We make plenty of money, like, with drinks and 20% of the ticket sale. It's like, it's enough.

Speaker 8:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:13 Like, it should be the, the w- if we had a comedy club and there's no comedians, no one's coming, right? No one's gonna pay just to sit there and buy drinks. Like, the whole idea is they're paying to see someone's work. If you fight, that's what people are paying to see. They're paying to see fighters.

Speaker 8:30 Without the fighters, there's no show. Without the comedians-

Joe Rogan 8:32 There's no show

Speaker 8:33 ... there's no show. I understand.

Joe Rogan 8:34 Um-

Speaker 8:34 But I think the big thing with the discussion of fighter pay is the, is the percentages.

Joe Rogan 8:37 Yes.

Speaker 8:37 When you look at other maker, major organizations like NFL, NBA, the percentages are so, so different.

Joe Rogan 8:43 Yeah, it's not good.

Speaker 8:44 But, dude, at the end of the day, I'm all for fighter pay, too. I've been fighting my whole life. But you sign the contract, you agree. This is how business is done. Push for, try to get more of what you're worth. You know, you can't sign a contract and complain.

Joe Rogan 8:56 Right. That's true, too, but also, it's like, the reality of MMA is if you're not in the UFC, people are not paying attention. That's unfortunate-

Speaker 9:06 True, true, true

Joe Rogan 9:06 ... but it's reality.

Speaker 9:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:08 You know, and I think there's some really good fighters that fight in the PFL and really good fighters that fight in ONE, but they don't, no one knows who they are other than the hardcore dudes.

Speaker 9:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 9:18 That's-

Speaker 9:19 Yeah, I got a buddy, Johnny Eblen, who was-

Joe Rogan 9:21 Yeah

Speaker 9:21 ... the Bellator champion.

Joe Rogan 9:21 He's awesome.

Speaker 9:23 I've been training with him since he started MMA, when he got out of college wrestling and stuff. Like, right now, he can go to the UFC and give the top five guys a run for their money.

Joe Rogan 9:29 Absolutely.

Speaker 9:30 No doubt in my mind.

Joe Rogan 9:31 Absolutely.

Speaker 9:31 And he's only getting better.

Joe Rogan 9:32 Yeah.

Speaker 9:32 Just because you fight in the UFC, that's a great organization to fight for, the biggest, the most known worldwide, but dude, there's great fighters everywhere. You know, like, on the, on the mats at American Top Team, there's a dozen guys you never heard of that can make a run in the UFC right now.

Joe Rogan 9:47 That's what I heard is a nightmare about training at American Top Team. [laughs]

Speaker 9:51 'Cause it's a revolving door, man. There's like 100 professional fighters on the mats at all times.

Joe Rogan 9:55 Yeah.

Speaker 9:56 Different camps, they have dorms, so guys are from Russia, guys from all over the world are just in. You never know who's gonna be there, and it's, it's tough rounds. You know, every practice is tough.

Joe Rogan 10:05 Well, not only that, but I've heard there's, like, guys coming in from Russia, and they'll throw oblique kicks at your knees, and you're like, "Hey, man. Like, what are we doing here? We're getting ready for fights. We're not in a fight."

Speaker 10:16 Right. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:17 Like, some of these guys are trying to make their name off of a name guy, and so you have to be very selective in who you spar with.

Speaker 10:23 For sure, and that's any, not just American Top Team.

Joe Rogan 10:25 Right.

Speaker 10:26 Especially guys who are established. Like, if I go to any gym here in Austin, and it's open mat or something, I have a target on my back.

Joe Rogan 10:32 Of course.

Speaker 10:32 You know, that's everywhere.

Joe Rogan 10:33 Of course.

Speaker 10:34 But those guys, man, like at a g- big gym like American Top Team with the knowledge and the good coaches, those guys get weeded out.

Joe Rogan 10:39 That's good.

Speaker 10:39 You know, you, you won't stay there long if you're doing that stuff.

Joe Rogan 10:42 The problem is if you're one of the guys that has to weed them out, like, you find out early on this dude's, you know, throwing wheel kicks-

Speaker 10:48 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 10:49 ... full blast.

Speaker 10:50 And it happens all the time.

Joe Rogan 10:51 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 10:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:52 Well, just, you know, it makes sense. I mean, you're from Dagestan or Chechnya or whatever, and you come to America-

Speaker 10:58 Yeah

Joe Rogan 10:58 ... it's like, this is your big chance.

Speaker 10:59 And I do like to train hard. To prepare for a fight, you gotta fight, but the, you know, you gotta take care of each other. We're professionals.

Joe Rogan 11:05 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 11:05 We're feeding our family with this.

Joe Rogan 11:06 Yeah.

Speaker 11:07 An injury can ruin everything.

Joe Rogan 11:09 Well, there's so many fighters that get concussions in training, and then, you know, they get chinny when they get into the fight. It happens all the time.

Speaker 11:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:17 Especially the early days. There was a lot of guys who got hit.

Speaker 11:20 Me. Yeah, like, the early days, we didn't really have s- classes that were organized, man. It was just sparring and choking each other out, and with four-ounce gloves sparring. Like, we didn't know.

Joe Rogan 11:31 Whoa.

Speaker 11:31 We didn't know.

Joe Rogan 11:32 Isn't that crazy? Like-

Speaker 11:34 Like 2006, dude, we used to beat each other up every day. That was MMA training.

Joe Rogan 11:38 [exhales]

Speaker 11:39 And then it wasn't these super gyms where everything was under one roof. I would drive to a boxing gym, drive another 45 minutes to a jujitsu gym. You know, it was, put everything together on fight night, but you would train everywhere else 'cause there wasn't mixed martial arts gyms back then, really. I would drive to a kickboxing gym, boxing gym, wrestling, jujitsu. It was all separate.

Joe Rogan 11:58 Well, also, you were in a place that didn't have, like, a high volume of MMA fighters in your state.

Speaker 12:05 Right. M- back then, like, m-Rich Clemente, Melvin Guillard-

Joe Rogan 12:11 Mm-hmm

Speaker 12:11 ... were the big guys from-

Joe Rogan 12:12 Right

Speaker 12:12 ... Louisiana, you know?

Joe Rogan 12:13 Right.

Speaker 12:14 Then Tim Creter came, got-

Joe Rogan 12:15 Crazy Tim.

Speaker 12:15 Crazy Tim got on The Ultimate Fighter, and then I went to his gym once he got out of, uh, the TV show.

Joe Rogan 12:21 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 12:21 And, uh, me and him trained for years and years. He still has a gym in Lafayette, Louisiana.

Joe Rogan 12:25 I loved Tim. I, I've known Tim since, I, I first worked out with him in, like, '98 at Machado's.

Speaker 12:31 Well, he was in maybe the Navy, so he was in California stationed there, and I think that's when he started jujitsu. He was Louisiana's first black belt.

Joe Rogan 12:38 Oh, wow.

Speaker 12:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:40 Yeah. Well, I knew him from that, and then he was fighting, and he was fighting in the UFC. It's-

Speaker 12:44 And co- he was always around the MMA scene. Him and Yves Edwards were, were good friends. They opened a gym maybe in Houston or something. He was cornering Yves in Pride, and then I met Yves through Tim, and it's just... It's a big family, man.

Joe Rogan 12:55 Yves a guy that I always say, there was a time where he was the best 155-pounder on earth.

Speaker 13:01 When he beat Josh Thompson.

Joe Rogan 13:02 Yes.

Speaker 13:02 He's the uncrowned-

Joe Rogan 13:03 Yes

Speaker 13:03 ... champion.

Joe Rogan 13:04 He should've been the uncrowned champion.

Speaker 13:05 There wasn't a belt.

Joe Rogan 13:06 I know. Isn't that nuts?

Speaker 13:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:08 Isn't that nuts? That's so hard for people to understand-

Speaker 13:10 Yeah

Joe Rogan 13:10 ... like, how crazy it is.

Speaker 13:11 Like, being through the lineage of Thug Jitsu, man, it sucks to say, like, that he can't say he was a champion wi- but I know he was.

Joe Rogan 13:18 He was.

Speaker 13:19 He was. He was the best in the world.

Joe Rogan 13:20 He was the best.

Speaker 13:20 And-

Joe Rogan 13:20 At one point in time, he was the best.

Speaker 13:23 I, he, he lived out here before he moved to LA, so before I moved to South Florida to train an American Top Team, I used to drive six hours here and stay with Yves. He always had wrestlers down here. This is, like, beginning of my WEC days. I would drive down here and train with Yves, man. He's, he was another guy who was ahead back in the day.

Joe Rogan 13:40 Yes.

Speaker 13:40 'Cause he comes from NHB, like, hook and shoot.

Joe Rogan 13:43 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 13:44 The crazy days.

Joe Rogan 13:45 Yeah.

Speaker 13:45 You know?

Joe Rogan 13:46 Yes, yes.

Speaker 13:46 And he was doing it all.

Joe Rogan 13:47 Yeah.

Speaker 13:47 Good jujitsu, good kickboxing. He fell in love with wrestling. I was such a big fan of Yves, man.

Joe Rogan 13:52 He, he invented some moves, too. You remember that one thing that he would do where guys were on a single and he hit a dude with a flying knee, a jumping knee?

Speaker 14:00 That was, uh... Dude, I'm a, I'm a MMA historian, bro.

Joe Rogan 14:03 Yeah.

Speaker 14:03 That, that was EliteXC, I believe maybe.

Joe Rogan 14:05 Was it?

Speaker 14:07 Um, and, you know, that was Edson Berto.

Joe Rogan 14:11 Was it?

Speaker 14:12 I think Andre Berto's brother, the boxer.

Joe Rogan 14:14 Oh, wow.

Speaker 14:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:17 Wow.

Speaker 14:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:18 But that, that-

Speaker 14:18 He had a single leg. He was hopping and then-

Joe Rogan 14:20 Mm-hmm

Speaker 14:20 ... jumped up and k- out cold.

Joe Rogan 14:22 Yeah, it was crazy. It is EliteXC. Look at you, bro.

Speaker 14:25 I mean-

Joe Rogan 14:25 Play that again. Look at this. This move is brilliant. That's brilliant.

Speaker 14:29 That's Edson Berto.

Joe Rogan 14:31 Well-

Speaker 14:31 And, and I believe Andre and Edson's dad was a mixed martial artist.

Joe Rogan 14:34 Oh, wow.

Speaker 14:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:37 That's such a slick move.

Speaker 14:40 Yeah, he's so crafty, man.

Joe Rogan 14:41 Oh, yeah. Well, that head kick that he landed on Josh Thompson from the middle of that wild, crazy scramble, jumping roundhouse kick to the head.

Speaker 14:48 Dude, and they still play it every opener-

Joe Rogan 14:50 Yeah

Speaker 14:50 ... of the UFC.

Joe Rogan 14:50 Yeah.

Speaker 14:51 They still play it, as they should. I mean, it was incredible.

Joe Rogan 14:53 Absolutely. Yeah. I gotta, you gotta give credit to Yves. He's, he was one of the real pioneers.

Speaker 14:59 For sure.

Joe Rogan 15:00 And just-

Speaker 15:01 Way before this was cool.

Joe Rogan 15:02 Yeah.

Speaker 15:02 Way before.

Joe Rogan 15:03 Yeah. But to be stuck at, like, 155, like, that was his weight class, and then there's no title?

Speaker 15:09 Yeah. They were the two best guys in the world at that time-

Joe Rogan 15:12 Mm-hmm

Speaker 15:12 ... him and Josh Thompson.

Joe Rogan 15:13 Yeah. Josh Thompson's another one, doesn't get the credit he deserves. That's it. Boom. Like, what a slick move, man. But that was Yves, very creative, you know?

Speaker 15:23 Yeah. Man, Josh Thompson, like, peak Josh Thompson for me, what was it? Strikeforce when him and, uh, Gilbert Melendez maybe were going back and forth.

Joe Rogan 15:32 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 15:32 Didn't have, like a-

Joe Rogan 15:33 Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Speaker 15:34 They might've had a trilogy. It might've been two f- two or three fights.

Joe Rogan 15:36 Uh-huh.

Speaker 15:36 But every fight was amazing.

Joe Rogan 15:37 Gilbert Melendez.

Speaker 15:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:38 Another guy who doesn't get the credit he deserves.

Speaker 15:40 Dude, legend.

Joe Rogan 15:40 [exhales]

Speaker 15:41 Legend, man.

Joe Rogan 15:42 Legend. All those guys, they, they were the groundbreakers. You know, a lot of these young kids coming up, you bring up Gilbert Melendez, they're like, "Who?" Like, bro, you need to know your history.

Speaker 15:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:51 You need to know how this thing got started. Go watch-

Speaker 15:53 Or even more newer stuff, go watch him and, uh, Diego-

Joe Rogan 15:56 Yeah

Speaker 15:56 ... Sanchez.

Joe Rogan 15:57 Right.

Speaker 15:57 Slug it out.

Joe Rogan 15:58 Diego Sanchez is another guy that I say is a tweener, right? 'Cause-

Speaker 16:02 Welterweight?

Joe Rogan 16:02 Yeah. I mean, he really wasn't really a welterweight, and he, you know, and lightweight. I mean, he tried to get down to 45 for a while, but that was just brutal. He was killing himself getting down to 45. I remember seeing him making weight for 45. I'm like, "Oh, this ain't good."

Speaker 16:18 This ain't gonna last long.

Joe Rogan 16:19 No.

Speaker 16:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:20 But if, like, there was a 165-pound weight class, Diego Sanchez might've been the champion of the world.

Speaker 16:26 Right. Honestly, man, like, when I was competing, if they had a 65, I might've entertained it. 70's just too big of a gap, 'cause I trained with 70s in the UFC, and I know-

Joe Rogan 16:34 Right

Speaker 16:34 ... they're 200-something pounds, and my heaviest, I was, like, 182, 183 maybe. They're just too big, man.

Joe Rogan 16:40 Well, you got guys like Rumble Johnson. When Rumble was alive-

Speaker 16:44 Yeah

Joe Rogan 16:45 ... Rumble got up to 230 pounds in between fights.

Speaker 16:47 No, he was huge, man.

Joe Rogan 16:49 [laughs]

Speaker 16:49 Huge.

Joe Rogan 16:50 So big.

Speaker 16:50 Huge. I can't believe he made 170.

Joe Rogan 16:52 I re- I remember-

Speaker 16:52 He was, he was living in South Florida, so I'd see him every now and then. He was huge. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. March is here, and Uber Eats is delivering deals all month long. Each game day, score big savings on all the delicious food you need to turn your couch into center court and fuel your fandom. Whether you're ordering in or hosting the whole crew, Uber Eats is serving up deals on wings, burgers, pizza from your favorite restaurant, plus game day snacks from top stores. Bracket busted? Still holding strong? Cinderella story or top seed? However the madness unfolds, these deals keep it going all month long. Visit the Game Day Hub on Uber Eats for all the latest deals and start saving today.

Joe Rogan 17:37 He was the ultimate, like, weight cutter. Like, he cut more weight than anybody.

Speaker 17:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:41 When he was fighting at 170, it was bananas. Like, how are you doing this? I remember running into him at a hotel. I was like, "Bro, how big are you?" And he was laughing. He's like, "I'm 230 right now." I'm like-

Speaker 17:51 And muscle

Joe Rogan 17:52 ... "Jacks."

Speaker 17:52 Yeah, muscle.

Joe Rogan 17:53 Like a heavyweight. And he went up to heavyweight and beat Arlovski.

Speaker 17:55 Yep, yep, yep.

Joe Rogan 17:56 Which is crazy. He was a legit heavyweight.

Speaker 17:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:59 It was-

Speaker 17:59 Dude, Andre's still fighting.

Joe Rogan 18:00 I know, and winning.

Speaker 18:02 The bare-knuckle champion.

Joe Rogan 18:03 Winning. He's the bare-knuckle champion. Like, how durable is that motherfucker?

Speaker 18:07 For the years and the miles that that guy has, I, I have to say, like, taking shots, receiving damage, he, I don't know if he takes it like he... Obviously, he doesn't take it like he used to, but his mobility and his movement for all the wars he's had and the years he's been fighting, when I watch him in the gym, dude, he's light on his feet, flexible.

Joe Rogan 18:22 Yeah.

Speaker 18:23 He moves so well.

Joe Rogan 18:24 And enthusiasm. Still has enthusiasm for the game.

Speaker 18:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:28 Which is crazy. Just-

Speaker 18:29 He lo- he loves it.

Joe Rogan 18:30 He clearly loves it. I mean, he was what? UFC heavyweight champion in 2005?

Speaker 18:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:36 Was it, like, 2005 when he was the champ?

Speaker 18:38 2005 or 2006, I think he beat Tim, Tim Sylvia maybe.

Joe Rogan 18:42 When he was the champ, first of all, that motherfucker had a piston for a right hand.

Speaker 18:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:46 I remember when he KO'd Paul Buentello. Oh my God.

Speaker 18:49 That's the Texas guy.

Joe Rogan 18:51 Paul Buentello, another, another dude. But-

Speaker 18:53 I believe he's from, uh, Galveston area or Corpus Christi or something. He's from Texas.

Joe Rogan 18:59 Well, we ... If you think Arlovski from 2005, and he was a top 10 heavyweight as recently as, like, 2023.

Speaker 19:09 Well, h- h- when he came back to the UFC after that long gap, he went on a streak.

Joe Rogan 19:13 Yeah.

Speaker 19:13 He had a bunch of great fight. I think he knocked out Travis Browne.

Joe Rogan 19:15 Beat Travis Browne, which is crazy.

Speaker 19:17 Did, did he fight Bigfoot? Did him and Bigfoot?

Joe Rogan 19:19 UFC 51 is when he won. 2005, February 5th, 2005. That is bananas, man. That really is bananas.

Speaker 19:28 Man, back in the day, uh, Tim Sylvia used to train at ATT. When I first got there, he was the most uncoordinated, unathletic guy. I couldn't believe he was a UFC champion, man.

Joe Rogan 19:37 I know. He was, like-

Speaker 19:38 Goofy

Joe Rogan 19:38 ... pigeon-toed.

Speaker 19:40 But down to fight.

Joe Rogan 19:40 Oh, down to fight, dude.

Speaker 19:41 Down to fight. Yeah, for sure pigeon-toed. His knees were-

Joe Rogan 19:44 Weird.

Speaker 19:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:45 Yeah, they went in. Like, I don't ... I tried to talk to a, a trainer about that, and he goes, "That's learned. Like, you can correct that." I was like, "Are you sure?"

Speaker 19:52 What, the knee, the knee?

Joe Rogan 19:53 Yeah. The knees bowed in like that was ... He said that's a lear- you could, you could correct that. I was like, "Really? How do you ... What?"

Speaker 20:03 I never heard of that.

Joe Rogan 20:04 Oh, yeah. I, I didn't understand how you do-

Speaker 20:06 It seems like something they would do maybe when you're born, surgery, like reposition the bones or something, no?

Joe Rogan 20:10 Well, I don't know if it is ... I don't know. I mean, I'd, I'd have to ... I don't wanna speak out of turn. I'd, I'd, I'd have to bring in that guy and have him explain to me how you could correct that.

Speaker 20:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:20 But he's like, "That's something that could be corrected. That's, like, learned behavior."

Speaker 20:23 Huh.

Joe Rogan 20:24 It's just from being so big.

Speaker 20:25 But dude, watching him with his toes pointed out doing the ladder drills and stuff, you know, the, the ladders on the mat.

Joe Rogan 20:30 [laughs] I know.

Speaker 20:30 In and out, like, it was so crazy.

Joe Rogan 20:31 Well, big guys have their toes pointed out like that. Like, Jelly Roll went from 500 pounds and he's down to the, he's in the low 200s now, which is crazy.

Speaker 20:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:42 And that dude-

Speaker 20:43 I saw pictures of him. Looks completely different.

Joe Rogan 20:44 Bro, he's lost, like, 300 pounds, and he did it the right way.

Speaker 20:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:48 No Ozempic, just, like, diet, exercise, runs all the time. But he has a problem when he walks, his toes are pointed out, and he's trying to correct it. He's trying to be aware of it.

Speaker 20:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:59 When he runs, he runs the right way, like, feet, feet pointed forward.

Speaker 21:03 You see it, too, on the, on the bigger guys' shoes. They, the, the corners of their shoes are always flat.

Joe Rogan 21:08 Yes.

Speaker 21:08 Like, flat tires on the outside.

Joe Rogan 21:09 Yeah.

Speaker 21:09 They just walk that way, man.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Well, you gotta think, you have so much weight, you gotta, you kinda, kinda stretch out to kinda balance yourself.

Speaker 21:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:17 But I always point to Tim Sylvia when he knocked out Rico, Rico Rodriguez. That-

Speaker 21:23 Oh.

Joe Rogan 21:24 That Tim Sylvia was a beast, dude. That was back when all the Mexican supplements were allowed. There was a lot of dudes who were very juicy.

Speaker 21:34 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:34 And Tim, that giant traps and huge fucking shoulders and-

Speaker 21:38 Yeah

Joe Rogan 21:38 ... I remember he struggled to get down to 265 for that fight.

Speaker 21:43 Yeah, back in the day with the juice was just free-flowing, man.

Joe Rogan 21:45 Free flowing.

Speaker 21:46 I just worked, um, the UFC desk with Bisping in Vegas when Max and Charles fought, and we started talking about the same thing we're talking about now, and he was like, "Oh, I fought veto, I fought them all in the height of TRT."

Joe Rogan 21:57 Right.

Speaker 21:57 You know, he's fought a bunch of guys.

Joe Rogan 21:58 Well, that was legal juice, which was bananas.

Speaker 22:01 I mean, Allister-

Joe Rogan 22:02 That they allowed g- Oh, yeah. That was the juiciest fight of all time.

Speaker 22:05 Just-

Joe Rogan 22:05 Allister versus, uh, versus Brock was the juiciest fight-

Speaker 22:10 Yeah

Joe Rogan 22:10 ... of all time.

Speaker 22:11 Yeah. I recently watched the, uh, Mark Hunt documentary and, um, he's trying to, like, push back and do a lawsuit against the UFC for all the juicing and stuff, but I mean, it's such a-

Joe Rogan 22:22 Yeah. That's a tough, that's a tough road because how much can the UFC do? I mean, I think-

Speaker 22:30 It's, and it's on the athletic commission as well, right?

Joe Rogan 22:32 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 22:32 Wouldn't the lawsuit be against the state, not the UFC?

Joe Rogan 22:35 I think his position is that the UFC knew that, um-

Speaker 22:40 But how would they know?

Joe Rogan 22:40 ... that Brock was juicing. I don't know.

Speaker 22:42 This is before random drug tests, I believe.

Joe Rogan 22:45 Yes. It was before.

Speaker 22:46 So that would ... I feel like that would fall on the state athletic commission.

Joe Rogan 22:49 Maybe it wasn't before 'cause he did get popped.

Speaker 22:53 You know, but before they-

Joe Rogan 22:53 But it wasn't random. They weren't-

Speaker 22:55 No, no, no

Joe Rogan 22:55 ... able to just show up in camp.

Speaker 22:57 No, no. They'd-

Joe Rogan 22:58 No

Speaker 22:58 ... back in the day, you would get tested on fight night.

Joe Rogan 23:00 Right.

Speaker 23:00 You know, they wouldn't knock at your door.

Joe Rogan 23:01 Well, it was super clear that Brock was doing something. It was super clear. Like, he was, like, in his late 30s.

Speaker 23:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:10 He's, he's built like a fucking, like the side of a barn.

Speaker 23:13 I mean, there was a bunch of guys back then.

Joe Rogan 23:14 Yeah, man.

Speaker 23:15 A bunch of guys.

Joe Rogan 23:16 Yeah. Well-

Speaker 23:16 But it wasn't fro- It was okay. Everybody was doing it.

Joe Rogan 23:19 Well, it was and it wasn't, right? 'Cause it was illegal, but it w- it was like, when you have fight day drug tests, that's an intelligence test. That's all that is.

Speaker 23:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:31 That's whether or not you have good people in your corner.

Speaker 23:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:34 And whether or not you have a, a chemist.

Speaker 23:36 It's gonna take this amount of weeks to get out-

Joe Rogan 23:38 Yeah, yeah

Speaker 23:38 ... or this many days to get out of your system and-

Joe Rogan 23:40 Well, there were certain camps that would employ scientists, and these scientists would-

Speaker 23:44 The crooks are always gonna be ahead, you know?

Joe Rogan 23:45 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 23:46 They're always gonna be coming up with something new, trying to stay ahead of the curve and get away with stuff. And I still think they're probably doing it, man.

Joe Rogan 23:52 Yeah. There's probably something that we don't know right now, and it's gonna come out in the future. That's why they hold onto the drug tests for a, a prolonged period of time.

Speaker 24:01 Yeah. They ask you your consent. You have to do an extra signature if you'd let them test it or use it for f- future-

Joe Rogan 24:06 What happens if you say no?

Speaker 24:08 I, I don't know. I never said no. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 24:10 Yeah.

Speaker 24:10 I always give it to them.

Joe Rogan 24:10 Well, it's good for you because you're clean. So-

Speaker 24:12 Yeah, I competed my whole career clean, man. Nothing. Nothing. I was even scared of certain creatine. Like, I got the Trusted by Sport on everything 'cause I was so scared to be one of those guys. 'Cause every time I see it, tainted supplement, yeah, sure, buddy. But, uh-

Joe Rogan 24:25 Right

Speaker 24:25 ... you know, sure, tainted supplement, but it could be. You know, I don't wanna be one of those guys.

Joe Rogan 24:29 Well, for sure there are tainted supplements. That's a real thing. And, you know, I know that for a fact because as one of the owners of On It, when we were doing, um,When we were, uh, doing third-party testing of some of our supplements, we would find stuff in there that's not supposed to be in there, and so we'd have to contact the distributor, the manufacturer, and the, the people that, like, mixed our stuff. So wh- the way, like, Onnit would work is, like, Alpha Brain has a bunch of different ingredients that enhance your, you know, your mental focus and clarity, and we would give them the very specific numbers of what's supposed to be in each batch.

Speaker 25:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:07 And then we would third-party test and we'd find a bunch of shit in there that's not supposed to be in there. And it's because, you know, if you're getting it done overseas, they have these vats where they mix all the stuff in, and they don't even clean the vats, man.

Speaker 25:18 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 25:19 They dump it out, and then they dump the new stuff in there without cleaning it.

Speaker 25:23 There's, there's residue in there.

Joe Rogan 25:23 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 25:23 And then also the level of drug testing, how high these things can sense anything-

Joe Rogan 25:28 Right

Speaker 25:28 ... even if there's a tiny bit, they'll find it.

Joe Rogan 25:30 Right, with Jon Jones, right, it was picograms. We got introduced to the term picograms.

Speaker 25:34 Picograms. Like, a grain of salt in a swimming pool they could find, they say.

Joe Rogan 25:37 Yeah.

Speaker 25:38 So the testing is legit, and I'm glad. You know, we're fighting. We're kneeing each other-

Joe Rogan 25:42 Right

Speaker 25:42 ... in the, in the face. If we were running track or something, I would-

Joe Rogan 25:44 Exactly.

Speaker 25:45 But we're fighting. You can get-

Joe Rogan 25:46 Exactly

Speaker 25:46 ... seriously injured, man, so.

Joe Rogan 25:47 Exactly.

Speaker 25:48 I've always been against doping.

Joe Rogan 25:49 Well-

Speaker 25:49 But I'm retired now, Joe.

Joe Rogan 25:51 [laughs]

Speaker 25:51 I'm retired now.

Joe Rogan 25:52 Now you can get through. Yeah, I love when guys get... Well, Cowboy got real jacked too afterwards, but then he talked about coming back, and then he got off of everything.

Speaker 26:00 That's the thing, though. Like, always back in the day, all the TRT guys, like, if you change your body's natural production of testosterone-

Joe Rogan 26:07 Mm-hmm

Speaker 26:07 ... with exogenous testosterone, you have to be on it for the rest of your life.

Joe Rogan 26:11 Well, you don't have to because there's things called HCG, and HCG and clomiphene can restart your body's production of testosterone.

Speaker 26:19 Yeah?

Joe Rogan 26:19 Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 26:20 'Cause I know your testicles will stop producing-

Joe Rogan 26:22 Exactly

Speaker 26:23 ... once you introduce foreign testosterone, right?

Joe Rogan 26:25 Well, for, for, for a period of time, but especially when you're a young man, you can restart it. But, you know, my production, I've been on TRT since I was, like, late 30s. Like, it's not coming back.

Speaker 26:38 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:38 I'm shooting blanks, son.

Speaker 26:39 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 26:39 Pa-pow. But, uh-

Speaker 26:41 You know, you're good

Joe Rogan 26:42 ... but two of my daughters were born while I was on TRT, so it does work. I just had a limited amount. I had soldiers, just one fucking special ops guy [laughs] at the front of the line.

Speaker 26:52 Only one was marching. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 26:54 But he got through.

Speaker 26:55 Black ops.

Joe Rogan 26:56 Yeah, so if you think about, like, all of the time where people were allowed to dope, it is a giant percentage of the history of MMA. Like, Pride.

Speaker 27:06 The further you go back, for sure.

Joe Rogan 27:08 For sure.

Speaker 27:08 For sure.

Joe Rogan 27:09 Pride, it was juicy as juice.

Speaker 27:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:11 Like, the, like, Enson Inoue, when he was on the podcast, told me that in the contract it said in all capital letters, "We do not test for steroids."

Speaker 27:20 We aren't looking.

Joe Rogan 27:20 They're like-

Speaker 27:20 I've heard, I've heard other people say that as well.

Joe Rogan 27:22 They're like-

Speaker 27:22 "We aren't looking."

Joe Rogan 27:23 Thumbs up, green light.

Speaker 27:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:24 Let's go.

Speaker 27:25 Shoot up the juice.

Joe Rogan 27:26 Yeah.

Speaker 27:26 Come fight, we'll pay you cash. Get outta here.

Joe Rogan 27:28 They wanted you to juice. They wanted you to fight better, which is like, okay.

Speaker 27:32 It becomes a spectacle, but man, people can get seriously injured.

Joe Rogan 27:35 You can, especially... But then also the thing is, like, does it make you more durable?

Speaker 27:40 I think it does.

Joe Rogan 27:41 Like, can it prevent you?

Speaker 27:41 I think it does, man.

Joe Rogan 27:42 Yeah.

Speaker 27:42 Because just one that, right off the top of my head, when Bigfoot Silva was TRT or whatever he was on-

Joe Rogan 27:49 Right

Speaker 27:49 ... he was so durable.

Joe Rogan 27:51 So durable.

Speaker 27:51 Him and Mark Hunt had those crazy fights.

Joe Rogan 27:52 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 27:52 But when he got off, he started getting knocked out.

Joe Rogan 27:54 Right.

Speaker 27:55 You know?

Joe Rogan 27:56 But there's also the switch. There's something that happens when you've had a certain amount of concussions where that's a wrap.

Speaker 28:01 Another, another guy that comes to mind, remember Erick Silva?

Joe Rogan 28:04 Yes.

Speaker 28:04 Welterweight. Was huge. Dude, whenever they started doing-

Joe Rogan 28:07 Yeah

Speaker 28:07 ... the USADA stuff, he was getting knocked out-

Joe Rogan 28:09 I know

Speaker 28:09 ... and just wasn't himself.

Joe Rogan 28:10 He didn't look the same.

Speaker 28:12 And I-

Joe Rogan 28:12 He melted

Speaker 28:12 ... I wonder what the, like, medical reason for that is, but I, I think it has it's something to do with confidence and, like, self-belief with the testosterone. They just... I think that's a big part of it. I really do.

Joe Rogan 28:22 It's definitely a part of it, but also there's a part of it, your vitality. You're just more durable. I mean, when you're jacked up on testosterone, you're, it's just more fucking durable.

Speaker 28:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:31 Everything about you is more durable. Alistair's a great example of that.

Speaker 28:34 Like animal mode, man. You're just like-

Joe Rogan 28:35 Yeah, man. Dude, Al- I th- th- the, I think Alistair Overeem when he was Ubereem, I think that is the best argument for TRT ever.

Speaker 28:43 Looked like a superhero.

Joe Rogan 28:44 Bro, when he was in K-1 and he was shelling up, how are you getting through that? How are you getting through that shell?

Speaker 28:50 Remember how small he was, though, back in K-1?

Joe Rogan 28:52 I know.

Speaker 28:52 He was, like, a 205 or-

Joe Rogan 28:53 Well, no, in Pride

Speaker 28:54 ... 185. Pride.

Joe Rogan 28:54 Pride, when he was fighting at light heavyweight.

Speaker 28:56 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:56 When Chuck knocked him out.

Speaker 28:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:57 Liddell knocked him out when he was a legit light heavyweight, and he was skinny.

Speaker 29:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:01 And then-

Speaker 29:02 Young and skinny

Joe Rogan 29:02 ... he just decided, time to get big.

Speaker 29:05 There you go.

Joe Rogan 29:06 Yeah, look at him back then when he fought Shogun.

Speaker 29:08 Still pretty jacked, though.

Joe Rogan 29:10 Oh, yeah, man.

Speaker 29:10 He's a big dude.

Joe Rogan 29:10 I mean, he was shredded. He was shredded, but he was a, a shredded light heavyweight. You know, he, I think he's a vegan now.

Speaker 29:18 That's, dude, look at that.

Joe Rogan 29:19 That's him. Come on, son. Come on, son.

Speaker 29:21 That's a, that's a rib eye. That ain't vegan right there.

Joe Rogan 29:23 Go back to that other one.

Speaker 29:24 Dude.

Joe Rogan 29:24 That's what I'm talking about. I mean, that's what a UFC heavyweight champion's supposed to look like.

Speaker 29:28 Hell yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:28 Come on, son. I mean, but also-

Speaker 29:31 Put that on the, put that on the White House card

Joe Rogan 29:32 ... not just that, but highly skilled.

Speaker 29:35 For sure.

Joe Rogan 29:35 He wasn't just-

Speaker 29:36 For sure

Joe Rogan 29:36 ... jacked. He was highly... I mean, that's a K-1 Grand Prix champion. I mean, that dude was the cream of the crop at kickboxing, he was the cream of the crop in MMA, and he even won the Abu Dhabi European trials as a pure grappler.

Speaker 29:53 Yeah, people don't know about that about Alis- Alistair. His grappling is, is high level.

Joe Rogan 29:56 Very l- he had one of the best guillotines in the game. Like, Alistair in his prime when, when he went over and he fought, uh, Brett Cooper over in, uh... Was it Burt Cooper? Who'd he, who... No, who'd he fucking fight in Strikeforce? Like, what, what-

Speaker 30:11 Brett Rogers.

Joe Rogan 30:11 Brett Rogers, that's right. Sorry. I'm thinking of the heavyweight boxer, Burt Cooper.

Speaker 30:16 Burt Cooper.

Joe Rogan 30:17 Who fought, uh, he had some crazy wars with, um, with, uh, Evander, Evander Holyfield.

Speaker 30:24 I think Evander's down in South Florida too now. I don't remember Cooper.

Joe Rogan 30:29 He was a really... Well, he was a, he was a tank. He was a tank. He was a, a super jacked guy. But Brett Rogers, when he fought Alistair, Alistair, like, immediately hit him with a low kick, and you could tell he was like, "What is this?"

Speaker 30:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:41 Like, it was a different kind of low kick, 'cause you're dealing with the tree trunks of Alistair with perfect technique and-That guy was as good a kickboxer as has ever entered into MMA, and when he was saucy, he was a problem.

Speaker 30:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:57 He was a real fucking problem.

Speaker 31:00 Speaking of kickboxers from that era coming to MMA, dude, didn't Gokhan Saki come over?

Joe Rogan 31:04 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 31:05 I, I thought he was gonna do, you know, so much better, but he's, he was older.

Joe Rogan 31:08 He was older, and he was at a time where it's like, you know, he had had so many fights-

Speaker 31:15 Yeah

Joe Rogan 31:15 ... in K1. You know, he had, he had so many wars. And he fought Khalil when K- you know, Khalil's fast as fuck.

Speaker 31:23 Yeah. And, I mean, good kickboxer.

Joe Rogan 31:24 Real good kickboxer.

Speaker 31:25 Thai style.

Joe Rogan 31:26 K- Khalil cracked him in the first round and, and knocked him out.

Speaker 31:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:30 Yeah. Which was a big fight for Khalil because, you know, Gokhan was the Turkish Tyson, was coming over here. You know, it was one of those guys, like Mirko Cro Cop was, like, an elite kickboxer who was entering into MMA, and everybody always gets excited about that. Obviously, Pereira's the best example of that anyway.

Speaker 31:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:46 But he was a guy I knew. I told everybody, I was like, "That guy's gonna be a nightmare for everybody because there's something about him, man. I don't know what the hell is going on with his bone structure, his DNA, and his intelligence." Like, he figures shit out that other people didn't f- like, the way he threw that low kick, like, the way he throws that calf kick with zero tell, no turning of the hips. Like, he fucks up guys' calves better than anybody on the planet.

Speaker 32:12 Dude, we had, like, a huge rush of the calf kick. I saw it for, like, a year and a half, two years. Everybody was doing it. Now it's kind of fading away, I've noticed that.

Joe Rogan 32:19 It is, uh, but not with him. It, it's not with elite guys, guys that are really good at it. It's like-

Speaker 32:24 It does so much damage, man, so quickly.

Joe Rogan 32:26 It's crazy.

Speaker 32:26 And it's so much ... It's less commitment, so you're not giving ... You don't have to turn your hips over as much, so wrestlers aren't grabbing singles as easy.

Joe Rogan 32:32 Well, I remember your fight with Jim Miller.

Speaker 32:34 It's just a ... Oh, dude tore me up.

Joe Rogan 32:35 Yeah. That was-

Speaker 32:36 Tore me up

Joe Rogan 32:36 ... that was one of the first examples of calf kicks being really fucking dangerous.

Speaker 32:40 And I've never felt it before. And it, and I'm a southpaw, so to land good calf kicks, you'd have to-

Joe Rogan 32:44 Mm

Speaker 32:44 ... fight another southpaw, right?

Joe Rogan 32:45 Right.

Speaker 32:45 And that doesn't happen too often, especially with one who's throwing those. So I didn't know what kind of black magic he was doing, bro. I was like-

Joe Rogan 32:52 [laughs]

Speaker 32:52 "I got a f- I got a flat tire. What is going on? What is this?"

Joe Rogan 32:55 I know.

Speaker 32:56 You know?

Joe Rogan 32:56 Isn't it crazy that it took that long for people to figure that out? Ben Henderson was a guy doing it early.

Speaker 33:03 Yep.

Joe Rogan 33:03 But it wasn't that effective for some reason.

Speaker 33:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:05 He was doing it, but it wasn't having the devastating damage.

Speaker 33:08 I'm trying to think of who's the first guy to really ... Edson Barboza would do it every now and then.

Joe Rogan 33:13 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 33:14 Trying to think of somebody who really brought it over.

Joe Rogan 33:15 Bro, it's made its way into kickboxing now.

Speaker 33:18 I, it's-

Joe Rogan 33:18 'Cause they were saying, like, the Muay Thai guys are not susceptible to calf kicks, and e- everybody was saying that, and I was like, "That doesn't make a lot of sense to me."

Speaker 33:25 They are light on their front foot, so that front foot is, you know-

Joe Rogan 33:28 They are, but there's times where they have to plant, like when they're throwing a right kick. There's a guy named Yuki Yoza.

Speaker 33:34 Across-

Joe Rogan 33:34 Yuki Yoza, who fights for One. He's a Kyokushin guy, and he is fucking everybody up with calf kicks.

Speaker 33:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:40 He, he fights hi- like, high guard, tight inside, and again, n- no pivot of the hips. He's essentially throwing his calf kick almost like he's kicking a soccer ball.

Speaker 33:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:52 Straight up the middle.

Speaker 33:52 That's, that's the way I like to do it as well.

Joe Rogan 33:54 Mm.

Speaker 33:55 Just clip the top of the calf.

Joe Rogan 33:56 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 33:56 There's no commitment. You don't have to pivot your hips or plant to turn. You can just snap it out like a jab.

Joe Rogan 34:00 Yeah. Well, a great example of the changing of technique was you in that Conor fight.

Speaker 34:08 S- yeah, calf-

Joe Rogan 34:09 Yes

Speaker 34:09 ... over and over.

Joe Rogan 34:10 And it was also southpaw versus southpaw.

Speaker 34:11 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 34:12 Same thing. You just destroyed that calf.

Speaker 34:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:15 And you could tell he didn't know what to do because as good as he was and as many fights as he had, two division world champion, he hadn't been calf kicked.

Speaker 34:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 34:24 Which is a crazy transition when you see, like, the history of the sport. That is one of the clear differentia- the, like, the, the differentiation. That's another word that's fake. That's the t- clear line in the sand where the techniques changed.

Speaker 34:40 Yeah. And it's one of those things, like, before it happened to me, I saw it and I was like, "Eh, it might be uncomfortable." And, but until it happens, then you have a different respect for it. So Conor probably learned a lot that fight, man. Like-

Joe Rogan 34:50 Oh, for sure

Speaker 34:50 ... this is for real. Calf kicks are for real.

Joe Rogan 34:52 Well, it's fucked that it's just one shot. That's what's crazy about it, 'cause a thigh kick, like, you can get a hard thigh kick and your leg goes dead for a couple seconds, but it comes back.

Speaker 35:02 Yeah. Calf-

Joe Rogan 35:02 Whereas calves don't really come back that quick.

Speaker 35:05 They explained it to me at the hospital after the Jim Miller thing. Apparently, your calf doesn't have the chambers for the fluid to drain, so that's why it gets compartment.

Joe Rogan 35:12 Oh, compartment syndrome.

Speaker 35:13 That's, that's why it's so painful, 'cause it, it can't, like, go out through your ... The swelling can't go out through your whole leg, so it sits in one pocket and just fills up and it's just uncomfortable. It can stop nerves and a bunch of different things.

Joe Rogan 35:22 Do you ever see what happened to Austin Hubbard?

Speaker 35:24 Dude, that's what they wanted to do.

Joe Rogan 35:25 Wow.

Speaker 35:25 After the Jim Miller fight, they wanted to cut me at the, uh ... I was like, "No way. No way."

Joe Rogan 35:31 Wow.

Speaker 35:31 Filet you to release the pressure.

Joe Rogan 35:32 Well, another guy, U- Uriah Faber, when he fought Jose Aldo.

Speaker 35:36 The thigh.

Joe Rogan 35:36 His leg blew up like a balloon.

Speaker 35:39 Yeah. Apparently, if it gets that bad, compartment syndrome, and the swelling's bad enough for long enough, you can lose function of your ankle and foot.

Joe Rogan 35:46 Yeah.

Speaker 35:46 They explained to me.

Joe Rogan 35:46 Which is crazy, right?

Speaker 35:48 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 35:48 Well, Uriah, uh, was one of the first guys to implement, um, uh, b- going into, um, what, why can't I think of it? The fucking chamber, oxygen chamber. I have a-

Speaker 36:00 Hyperbaric

Joe Rogan 36:00 ... hyperbaric. What's wrong with me today? I'm, I'm making up fake words, can't come up with things that I know. But he was, uh, using the hyperbaric, like, exclusively to recover from that.

Speaker 36:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:11 And, and documenting it. And I was like-

Speaker 36:13 Yo

Joe Rogan 36:13 ... "Oh, that's interesting."

Speaker 36:14 A lot of good, uh, brain benefits for hyperbaric.

Joe Rogan 36:16 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 36:16 I don't, I don't have one. I've done it before, but it's never been, like, a routine thing.

Joe Rogan 36:19 Well, it's, you have to have access to it [sighs] before you can do it a lot.

Speaker 36:21 And also the tent. The tents, the zip-up tents at home.

Joe Rogan 36:24 Not as strong.

Speaker 36:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:26 No.

Speaker 36:26 You need a solid-

Joe Rogan 36:27 You know, you need, like, one of those propane tank ones, those big thick walled ones.

Speaker 36:31 Yeah. The glass, like, it's-

Joe Rogan 36:32 Yes

Speaker 36:32 ... you can really get high pressure in there.

Joe Rogan 36:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, you know, you gotta be careful in those things. You can't ... No sparks.

Speaker 36:38 Yeah, dude, I saw a story that a kid was in one and-

Joe Rogan 36:40 Mm-hmm

Speaker 36:40 ... you saw that?

Joe Rogan 36:41 Yeah.

Speaker 36:41 That was a couple years ago.

Joe Rogan 36:42 Horrible.

Speaker 36:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:43 Horrible story. Yeah. Um, the, but hyperbaric is awesome for recovery. It's also, it lengthens ... There's a protocol that developed, uh-S- one of the universities in Israel developed it, where you do, uh, 60 sessions over 90 days, and it lengthens your telomeres that's commensurate with, I think it's, like, a 20-year difference in your biological age.

Speaker 37:06 Wow.

Joe Rogan 37:06 It's nuts. It's super effective. Like, when you get a lot of oxygen into your system like that, it just helps everything recover.

Speaker 37:14 For sure.

Joe Rogan 37:14 Like, if you have an Oura Ring or a WHOOP strap and you go into one of those things, it shows you.

Speaker 37:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:19 It's like, "Oh, you have an amazing recovery day."

Speaker 37:22 Yeah, man, the metrics we can track now with all the wearable devices is pretty awesome, dude.

Joe Rogan 37:26 Well, it gets you to understand... Like, I think you can get a little addicted to those things.

Speaker 37:31 For sure. I c- I... So when I was competing, I stopped using them 'cause every day wasn't ready, need to rest. Red, red-

Joe Rogan 37:37 Ah

Speaker 37:37 ... red every day. So when I retired, I got back to it. Now I'm using them. But, like, when you're training for a fight, you can't-

Joe Rogan 37:43 Isn't that interesting?

Speaker 37:44 I'm not taking two days off. I need to train. The fight's coming up. Like, if I'm in the red zone, I still need to train.

Joe Rogan 37:49 I know. Isn't that interesting? Like, there's, a, a wearable device would tell you you're not supposed to train, but yet you know in order to reach MMA peak physical condition, you have to push when you're not ready so that your body's forced to recover quicker.

Speaker 38:03 I know this guy's training. That's why I got rid of it. During camp, I don't use it, or didn't use it.

Joe Rogan 38:08 Well, it's weird because, like, what if you listen to it? Like, some people say, like, Terence Crawford was talking about, like, there's times where he wanted to push where his coaches told him not to, and then he realized they were right.

Speaker 38:22 Yeah. Maturing through fighting, man, pulling back got easier as I got older. When I was a younger fighter, I didn't wanna take any time off. I needed to be as many reps, as much time on the mats as possible. But as I got to, like, mid-30s, 36, I was like, "You know, this is, I gotta take days off."

Joe Rogan 38:38 Right.

Speaker 38:38 Complete days. Complete days. Not just a easy day or a technique day. I just need to be out of the gym.

Joe Rogan 38:43 Just relax.

Speaker 38:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:44 Yeah.

Speaker 38:44 Reset my mind-

Joe Rogan 38:45 It's-

Speaker 38:45 ... to where I wanna be there

Joe Rogan 38:46 ... just hard for fighters because you operate on momentum of the conditioning and the training and the discipline, and it's like-

Speaker 38:52 Yeah

Joe Rogan 38:52 ... you're in there. And then to, to have a day where you're not, you feel like you're slipping backwards.

Speaker 38:56 Right. And you show up to fight week with that momentum. Like, "I did everything I could. I busted my ass every day." Like, it just gives you so much energy and so much confidence going into fight week. I-

Joe Rogan 39:07 You've turned over every stone.

Speaker 39:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:08 Yeah.

Speaker 39:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:09 Well, the worst thing, though, is seeing a fighter fight flat 'cause you know they're overtrained.

Speaker 39:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:14 And the one thing that I always point to is when, um, Tim Kennedy fought Kelvin Gastelum, and he had gone through two solid camps in a row. So he went through one camp, peaked, got ready for the fight, and then the fight got canceled, and then went right back into camp for, to train for Gastelum and didn't give himself the chance to recover. And, you know, he's too tough.

Speaker 39:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:34 Too tough, too disciplined, and his body broke down.

Speaker 39:37 You're redlining that engine over and over and over. I mean, we just saw it with Merab, I think. You know, not to-

Joe Rogan 39:42 A little bit

Speaker 39:42 ... taking anything away from Yan-

Joe Rogan 39:43 Right. Mm-hmm

Speaker 39:44 ... but, you know, you stay that busy, those kind of fights, those training camps, I mean, it's hard to do. That's what makes things like Jon Jones could be so impressive to me, man.

Joe Rogan 39:52 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 39:53 To get on top and stay on top that long, you know?

Joe Rogan 39:55 Yeah. I know. It's nuts. There's so few guys that have been able to do that.

Speaker 39:59 Especially in MMA. Too many variables. Too many ways to slip on a banana peel-

Joe Rogan 40:03 I know

Speaker 40:03 ... get caught or something, you know?

Joe Rogan 40:05 I know. I kinda love that Khabib went out on top and he's proud.

Speaker 40:08 And never came back. Respect. Like, that's awesome.

Joe Rogan 40:10 And they offered him a lot of fucking money to come back. He's like, "Nope."

Speaker 40:14 For sure. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:15 "Nope." Done.

Speaker 40:15 Good for him, man.

Joe Rogan 40:16 Yeah. Good for him.

Speaker 40:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:18 That's the way to do it. And then you go out, all your faculties, everything's fine, undefeated, go down a legend.

Speaker 40:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:24 Yeah.

Speaker 40:25 Like, f- I think Floyd shoulda did it, you know, like that. Now he's fucking fuck- fighting Mike Tyson, dude.

Joe Rogan 40:30 I know.

Speaker 40:30 Come on, man.

Joe Rogan 40:31 I know. There was some rumors around that Floyd was gonna have a rematch with Conor, which is crazy. But I think Conor would probably do it, especially-

Speaker 40:40 Yeah

Joe Rogan 40:40 ... if there weren't any drug testing involved.

Speaker 40:42 I wonder if he's gonna come back at... For sure, yeah. [laughs] But, man, to heal from an injury like he had, you probably need a bunch of stuff to... I don't know the ins and outs of that, but you probably need some help to heal.

Joe Rogan 40:53 He definitely needed some help to heal. The problem is once you get used to that help-

Speaker 40:57 Yeah

Joe Rogan 40:57 ... and you enjoy it.

Speaker 40:59 Yeah. I'm, I'm getting used to the help.

Joe Rogan 41:01 [laughs]

Speaker 41:01 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 41:01 I know. That's what I thought about Cowboy when he got jacked, and then he was like, "He's gonna..." And he, he slimmed back down again. He said he was gonna fight again, but I get, I think he might have abandoned that.

Speaker 41:11 I got hooked up with Brigham and Ways to Well. They did all my blood when I retired and got me... I, I turned down, no testosterone for me, so I'm not on any testosterone. I just don't wanna mess up my natural production. 'Cause mine wasn't high, but it wasn't low. I'm just scared to mess with it, you know?

Joe Rogan 41:24 Yeah. You don't need it. And it's peptides-

Speaker 41:26 I'm 37

Joe Rogan 41:27 ... can do a lot for you.

Speaker 41:28 Yeah. I'm on a bunch of peptides.

Joe Rogan 41:30 Yeah. Peptides are the way to go.

Speaker 41:31 And I feel great. Honestly, I wish I coulda been on this shit when I was fighting, man.

Joe Rogan 41:36 I know.

Speaker 41:37 You know, especially, like, the growth hormone releasing stuff.

Joe Rogan 41:40 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 41:40 Like-

Joe Rogan 41:41 Like tesamorelin.

Speaker 41:42 Exactly. Like, I could've-

Joe Rogan 41:44 CGC, ifamorelin. Yeah

Speaker 41:44 ... I could've pushed hard every day, man.

Joe Rogan 41:46 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 41:46 As I got older, it got harder, man.

Joe Rogan 41:48 I know. And all it does is help your body recover. It's not like it gives you some sort of a performance enhancing boost or like-

Speaker 41:54 I know it definitely helps with, like, fat mobilization and-

Joe Rogan 41:57 Mm-hmm

Speaker 41:57 ... and, and stuff like that, but just being able to push hard every day is huge in fighting, man.

Joe Rogan 42:02 But just BPC-157, which offers no performance enhancing, but would help you heal soft tissue injuries. Because w- you're getting injured. The, you're just-

Speaker 42:11 Yeah

Joe Rogan 42:11 ... getting small injuries every day training. Every time you get leg kicked, every time you get punched in the stomach-

Speaker 42:17 Arm barred, shoulder locked, you-

Joe Rogan 42:18 Everything. Everything

Speaker 42:19 ... your joints are always messed up.

Joe Rogan 42:20 Always.

Speaker 42:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:21 Always. And if you wanted fighters to perform better, something that would allow them to heal better is only good. And it's not, it's not gonna make you run faster, it's not gonna make you jump higher.

Speaker 42:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:32 It's not gonna make you an Ubermensch. We're not talking about that.

Speaker 42:35 I, and I'm not even sure if that's banned. I haven't checked the-

Joe Rogan 42:38 It is

Speaker 42:38 ... it is?

Joe Rogan 42:38 BPC-157's banned.

Speaker 42:39 Wow. Wow.

Joe Rogan 42:40 Yeah.

Speaker 42:40 I mean-

Joe Rogan 42:40 It's unfortunate

Speaker 42:41 ... yeah, creatine, protein powders, that's the same stuff. You just recover better. I, I don't understand why it-

Joe Rogan 42:47 Well, creatine's not banned. Creatine's not banned, thank God. But creatine in the 1990s was thought of as the same way as steroids.

Speaker 42:53 Right. Yeah, yeah. I remember.

Joe Rogan 42:54 People thought, like, "Creatine's cheating."

Speaker 42:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:56 "Oh my God, you're taking creatine." They, they literally put it in the same category as ster- And then they realized, oh, it's actually a part of food.

Speaker 43:01 It's great for your brain.

Joe Rogan 43:02 It's actually good for you.

Speaker 43:03 Great for everything.

Joe Rogan 43:04 Yeah.

Speaker 43:05 I just talked, I just talked my wife into starting creatine. Women need it more than men, I was reading.

Joe Rogan 43:10 Right.

Speaker 43:10 You know?

Joe Rogan 43:10 I read that, too.

Speaker 43:11 So my wife's just starting.

Joe Rogan 43:11 Yeah.

Speaker 43:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:12 I think the key is to, like, make sure you're hydrated, too, and to make sure you're not taking too much of it, and make sure you get your blood checked, and so you're not putting a lot of pressure on your kidneys.

Speaker 43:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:22 But, like, dehydration and kidneys, that, like, that is one of the big things that happens to a lot of fighters that cut a lot of weight. They start getting kidney stones. I mean, Jose Aldo dealt with that. Uh, DC famously got pulled out of the Olympics-

Speaker 43:35 Oh, yep, yep

Joe Rogan 43:36 ... 'cause he, he was having kidney failure.

Speaker 43:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:38 Yeah. Your kidneys, man, they don't like you being drained out like that.

Speaker 43:42 I've had a few weight cuts where I felt pain in my back.

Joe Rogan 43:45 Yeah.

Speaker 43:45 And I, I think that's kidneys.

Joe Rogan 43:46 100%, man.

Speaker 43:47 You know? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:47 That's kidney shots.

Speaker 43:49 Didn't happen often, but I've definitely had it.

Joe Rogan 43:51 Isn't that spooky?

Speaker 43:51 Tightness. It feels kinda like cramping in a weird place you never had before in your back.

Joe Rogan 43:55 Isn't that spooky? You're drying out your organs.

Speaker 43:57 And then fighting for your life-

Joe Rogan 43:58 Crazy

Speaker 43:59 ... 24 hours. It was nice, though, when I started making it to the top of the cards, co-main event, main event, because then you have, like, 30 something hours to rehydrate. If you're fighting-

Joe Rogan 44:06 Right

Speaker 44:06 ... early prelims in Vegas-

Joe Rogan 44:07 Right

Speaker 44:08 ... 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon-

Joe Rogan 44:09 Right

Speaker 44:09 ... you know, it's-

Joe Rogan 44:10 Right

Speaker 44:11 ... not too long, especially back in the day when weigh-ins were at 5:00 or 6:00 PM.

Joe Rogan 44:15 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 44:15 There wasn't a morning and ceremonial.

Joe Rogan 44:17 Right.

Speaker 44:17 It was, the real weigh-ins were at 5:00, and you were gonna fight at 2:00 the next day.

Joe Rogan 44:20 Yeah, those were nuts. That was crazy.

Speaker 44:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:24 That was crazy when guys would, like, shuffle to the scale for the real weigh-in.

Speaker 44:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:29 And you'd see them all like, like a skeleton.

Speaker 44:31 And you're facing off with your opponent trying to be tough, like-

Joe Rogan 44:33 I know

Speaker 44:33 ... both dying.

Joe Rogan 44:34 Well, I always remember Jose Aldo versus Conor. Conor looked like-

Speaker 44:38 Oh, yep

Joe Rogan 44:39 ... he was one of the walking dead.

Speaker 44:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:41 He looked like a zombie.

Speaker 44:42 Yeah, he was one of them.

Joe Rogan 44:42 He was so skinny.

Speaker 44:43 His face bones.

Joe Rogan 44:44 Yeah. See if you can find that. And he was also crazy, like, "Ah."

Speaker 44:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:49 Like, like flexing-

Speaker 44:50 He's always crazy

Joe Rogan 44:51 ... and hyped up with no, like, no body fat, no water, just completely dehydrated. Like, look at that.

Speaker 44:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:59 Look at that.

Speaker 45:00 The eyes-

Joe Rogan 45:00 Come on

Speaker 45:00 ... eyes sunken in.

Joe Rogan 45:02 That is nuts. That guy weighed 145, and he probably weighed 170, or w- at least 165-

Speaker 45:09 Yeah

Joe Rogan 45:09 ... when he got into the actual octagon that day.

Speaker 45:11 I wonder, if he does come back, I wonder what he's gonna come back at.

Joe Rogan 45:14 [coughs]

Speaker 45:14 Like, lightweight or welterweight.

Joe Rogan 45:16 Well, the real key is if.

Speaker 45:17 If.

Joe Rogan 45:18 I mean, he's had a lot of opportunities, and I don't know.

Speaker 45:21 I thought the f- I thought the, uh, Chandler fight was a layup for him.

Joe Rogan 45:23 That's the fight.

Speaker 45:24 A great matchup for him, you know?

Joe Rogan 45:25 Great fight technically. It's a great fight stylistically. It's a great fight age-wise. Chandler's gotta be, what, 39 now?

Speaker 45:33 He's up there, 38 or 39.

Joe Rogan 45:34 Yeah.

Speaker 45:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:35 I mean, and then there's-

Speaker 45:36 And

Joe Rogan 45:36 ... the hype of The Ultimate Fighter.

Speaker 45:38 True, but it's just a layup for Conor. Chandler's hittable.

Joe Rogan 45:42 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 45:42 Covers distance, not that technical, you know, huge m- movements.

Joe Rogan 45:45 Right.

Speaker 45:46 You jump in, you get carried out. Conor's a sniper, man. I just think that's a great matchup for him.

Joe Rogan 45:50 It's also a great matchup for Chandler, 'cause he is gonna get tired.

Speaker 45:53 He gets paid. And, and he gets that ch-

Joe Rogan 45:54 Yeah

Speaker 45:54 ... you know, 'cause he sat out for two years waiting on-

Joe Rogan 45:56 Uh-huh

Speaker 45:56 ... waiting on Conor.

Joe Rogan 45:57 It's also, like, remember him with Oliveira? Even in the fucking third round, that dude is carrying Oliveira up-

Speaker 46:02 Yeah

Joe Rogan 46:02 ... and f- throwing him through the air and body slamming him while he's on his back.

Speaker 46:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:06 Like, the dude's ha- he has incredible durance and incredible discipline.

Speaker 46:10 For sure.

Joe Rogan 46:10 He's always fit.

Speaker 46:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:12 And that's been Conor's Achilles heel is that Conor, he's so explosive and so fast that if you're sprinting in that first round, guaranteed you're not gonna have that same kind of energy in the fifth round.

Speaker 46:22 Yeah. But some guys are just designed like that, you know? You saw-

Joe Rogan 46:25 Mm-hmm

Speaker 46:25 ... Tyron Woodley is a guy who has-

Joe Rogan 46:27 Yep

Speaker 46:27 ... huge explosion, but they don't necessarily keep that for, for 25 minutes.

Joe Rogan 46:33 Yeah.

Speaker 46:33 But on the opposite side of that, you got a guy like Nate Diaz-

Joe Rogan 46:35 Right

Speaker 46:35 ... who will keep that same pace from round one to five.

Joe Rogan 46:38 Round 30.

Speaker 46:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:39 That dude could f- if, if that fight was 30-

Speaker 46:40 Or Hector Lombard.

Joe Rogan 46:41 Right.

Speaker 46:41 Out of a cannon, you know-

Joe Rogan 46:42 Mm-hmm

Speaker 46:42 ... and then slow down.

Joe Rogan 46:43 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 46:44 Just the way muscles and fibers are put, you know, connected. I don't know what does that to, to a human.

Joe Rogan 46:49 Yeah. Well, the only guys that figured out how to fight with all that bulk and just, is, like, Yoel Romero. He fought very smart. It was just like calm-

Speaker 46:57 He's still fighting

Joe Rogan 46:59 ... and c- still fighting.

Speaker 47:00 Dude's still fighting.

Joe Rogan 47:01 Jacked.

Speaker 47:01 50 years old. Jacked.

Joe Rogan 47:03 Jacked.

Speaker 47:03 More jacked than ever.

Joe Rogan 47:04 Jacked.

Speaker 47:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:04 48 years old, 49 years old with abs, looking like a fucking super athlete.

Speaker 47:09 I think he's doing bare knuckle maybe.

Joe Rogan 47:11 Yeah, he did bare knuckle. He did dirty boxing. There's a, there's a fight where he had in dirty boxing where he's, he's touching the dude up, and then out of nowhere he just leaps up into the air. He does, like, a vertical. He, his, like, this five-foot vertical-

Speaker 47:26 Yeah

Joe Rogan 47:26 ... lands on his feet and just starts putting on a dude. He's like, "I'm tired of this. Let me show you what I can really do."

Speaker 47:30 [laughs] I've had fun. I'm, I'm done playing with the food.

Joe Rogan 47:33 Yeah. I've had fun.

Speaker 47:34 He's a crazy ... He's been on the mats a bunch at American Top Team as well, and, uh, just a freak athlete, man.

Joe Rogan 47:39 Freak.

Speaker 47:40 He's-

Joe Rogan 47:40 He's the freak of all freaks

Speaker 47:41 ... just a freak athlete.

Joe Rogan 47:42 Yeah. I mean, he came out of that Cuban program.

Speaker 47:44 They build them different over there.

Joe Rogan 47:45 Yeah, they build them with science.

Speaker 47:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:47 Yeah. But he also figured out how to pace himself, you know?

Speaker 47:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:52 He figured out how to, like, explode out of nowhere, but not explode the entire time. Like, he had this casual, almost, he would lull you into a false sense of security and then just pounce on you.

Speaker 48:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 48:03 Which is why-

Speaker 48:03 Like that knee he hit w- Weidman with.

Joe Rogan 48:05 Yeah.

Speaker 48:05 Dude, that was fuckin'-

Joe Rogan 48:06 A perfect example. Perfect example.

Speaker 48:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:09 Because you get used to this kinda pace, and then he just launches.

Speaker 48:12 And you're getting into the rhythm and then you just break it up.

Joe Rogan 48:15 Yep.

Speaker 48:15 But also he didn't fight, like, obviously he's a wrestler. He didn't wrestle too too hard and really gas himself out.

Joe Rogan 48:20 No.

Speaker 48:20 He fought smart to, to do what he's good at, explode.

Joe Rogan 48:23 Barely used his wrestling in MMA, which is so crazy.

Speaker 48:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:27 It's really crazy if you think about how good of a wrestler he was.

Speaker 48:30 Right.

Joe Rogan 48:30 'Cause he was one of the best wrestlers to ever compete in MMA. I mean, that dude was elite as a wrestler, and in MMA he's just starching people.

Speaker 48:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:38 When Luke Rockhold, and he st- starched Luke, like, that was crazy.

Speaker 48:43 Luke's another guy still fighting I think.

Joe Rogan 48:47 I think he might be done now. You know, when he got knocked out by Darren Till in the boxing, I think that might be it.

Speaker 48:52 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:53 I think that might be it. And Darren Till's got a resurgence, man. As a boxer, he looks fucking fantastic.

Speaker 48:59 I didn't, I, I saw the highlights of that, but I haven't seen the whole fight.

Joe Rogan 49:02 Bro, he looks real good. He looks r- 'cause he's always-

Speaker 49:05 Well, he's always been a good striker

Joe Rogan 49:06 ... very good striker, and his Achilles heel has been his knees. You know, he's had some serious knee problems, and it really impeded him from being able to train hard. And he wasn't the best grappler in the world.

Speaker 49:18 Mm.

Joe Rogan 49:18 And so that was always his problem. But as a striker, I mean, that guy was, like, very, very good. And you're seeing him now in boxing, like, he's making a real run.I think it's very interesting because if you watch him box Rockhold and you realize, like, Rockhold's a really good striker, but against Darren Till, he looked like he had no business in there.

Speaker 49:37 Yeah. That's something I would like to do, man, box.

Joe Rogan 49:40 Still?

Speaker 49:41 I always wanted to have a couple before I've, you know... But I, I'm still under contract. Even though I'm retired, I still have a contract with the UFC, so.

Joe Rogan 49:47 Do you think the UFC will let you out? Or they have Zuffa Boxing now.

Speaker 49:49 Dude, so they don't-- I, I, trust me, I already pitched it to them.

Joe Rogan 49:52 Did you?

Speaker 49:52 Me and Nate Diaz, Zuffa Boxing, let's go.

Joe Rogan 49:54 Let's go.

Speaker 49:55 170 whatever.

Joe Rogan 49:56 What'd they say?

Speaker 49:56 Or 168, super middleweight, let's do it. They don't want any crossover.

Joe Rogan 49:59 What?

Speaker 50:00 They, I think Zuffa wants to be taken as a serious-

Joe Rogan 50:01 Do they hate money?

Speaker 50:02 They must hate money.

Joe Rogan 50:03 Do they hate money?

Speaker 50:04 They hate money.

Joe Rogan 50:04 Why do they hate money?

Speaker 50:06 Mm, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 50:07 I-

Speaker 50:07 They, they wanna be taken by the boxing world serious, and I think if you open that door of a MMA guy fighting under Zuffa Boxing, every guy on the roster, every girl on the roster's gonna wanna do the same.

Joe Rogan 50:16 Mm. Interesting.

Speaker 50:17 It just becomes a mess, I think.

Joe Rogan 50:19 I don't know about that.

Speaker 50:21 Yeah?

Joe Rogan 50:21 I don't think it's a mess.

Speaker 50:22 I think there are some really fun MMA boxing matchups you can make.

Joe Rogan 50:24 Fuck yes.

Speaker 50:25 Fuck yes.

Joe Rogan 50:26 You know? Especially when guys get older and, you know, you don't wanna go through the training camp with wrestling and leg kicks and all that shit.

Speaker 50:32 That's the thing, like, thinking about a, a boxing training camp, dude, with no grappling, no wrestling, just run, condition, and box, it would be s-smooth sailing.

Joe Rogan 50:42 Like a vacation for you.

Speaker 50:42 Dude, I'd love it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:43 Isn't it funny?

Speaker 50:44 I'm on the beach, man.

Joe Rogan 50:44 As tough as boxing is, like, for you, like, oh, this is gonna be so nice.

Speaker 50:48 I only have to box. That's great.

Joe Rogan 50:49 [laughs]

Speaker 50:49 Yeah. Honestly, man, in training camp, those are my b-favorite days. Striking, sparring is my favorite days. Like, the wrestling class, the two-hour maiko on Monday is, like, brutal, bro.

Joe Rogan 50:58 Well, it'd be great for you because you've always had great hands. Like, for you, that's a perfect, m- like, area.

Speaker 51:03 Well, I started box- I started boxing before mixed martial arts.

Joe Rogan 51:06 Mm.

Speaker 51:06 You know?

Joe Rogan 51:08 That would be a perfect way for you to get some other fights in. I don't understand Zuffa.

Speaker 51:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:13 W-

Speaker 51:13 I would just love to lace 'em up and, and box professionally once.

Joe Rogan 51:17 I know they wanna, like, redo boxing, and I know they wanna, like... And I think there's probably some real merit there. Uh, obviously what, uh, the Saudis have done with Riyadh season has been amazing, you know, making matchups that no one can ma-make because they have the money.

Speaker 51:31 I'm a big Conor Benn fan, too, man. I'm excited to see him-

Joe Rogan 51:33 Oh, yeah

Speaker 51:33 ... fight in Zuffa. And the guy he's fighting's from New Orleans. Like, I know the guy. Like, you know, it's, it's fun.

Joe Rogan 51:39 It is exciting. And it'll, it will definitely, I think they will elevate boxing, and Dana is throwing all of his cards into that, so I'm sure it's gonna work. But-

Speaker 51:47 Yeah, I'm, I'm glad we're seeing more boxing, Zuffa boxing, and less Power Slap on my feed whenever I go to-

Joe Rogan 51:52 Oh, yeah

Speaker 51:53 ... online stuff, you know?

Joe Rogan 51:54 Yeah, I'm not a big fan.

Speaker 51:55 I've never been to one, but man, it's just fucking...

Joe Rogan 51:57 Not my, not my jam.

Speaker 51:59 Yeah. When we f- when I fought my retirement in New Orleans, Mike Brown went to the Power Slap they had there.

Joe Rogan 52:04 Really?

Speaker 52:05 And he said it was awesome in person.

Joe Rogan 52:06 Oh, sure.

Speaker 52:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:07 It's awesome to watch someone get slapped, but, like, I'm not interested. I watch it on my fucking phone every now and then. I'll see some of the sudden-

Speaker 52:15 I mean, the highlights are good enough. You see the knockouts-

Joe Rogan 52:16 Yeah

Speaker 52:16 ... and the crazy stuff, but...

Joe Rogan 52:18 It's great TikTok content.

Speaker 52:20 For sure.

Joe Rogan 52:21 You know, you watch someone get slapped-

Speaker 52:22 It's-

Joe Rogan 52:22 ... and they, they go forward, and their head hits the desk-

Speaker 52:24 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 52:24 ... and they fall backwards, but it's like, it's a concussion. You're watching concussions.

Speaker 52:28 And you can't, there's no defense.

Joe Rogan 52:30 Right.

Speaker 52:30 There's no, like, you can't flinch or-

Joe Rogan 52:32 That's crazy

Speaker 52:32 ... you get, it's penalty if you do.

Joe Rogan 52:33 That's crazy. That don't make any sense to me.

Speaker 52:36 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:36 I don't, I don't get it. But I think they've missed out on the opportunity to have a Muay Thai league. That's what I think.

Speaker 52:43 I just, America just doesn't buy into it that big.

Joe Rogan 52:46 I don't think that's true.

Speaker 52:47 No?

Joe Rogan 52:47 No. No. I just think they haven't served it correctly.

Speaker 52:48 Well, I mean, One, One is doing it on Amazon and-

Joe Rogan 52:51 Yeah

Speaker 52:51 ... you know? But-

Joe Rogan 52:52 But it's like, who's watching Amazon? That's the problem.

Speaker 52:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:54 You have a show on Amazon, like, I know guys who've released comedy specials on Amazon. Like, good luck finding it. Nobody cares.

Speaker 53:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:01 That's just the reality of this platform. Whatever, I mean, look, Amazon is a phenomenal platform for buying stuff. I love it for buying things.

Speaker 53:08 Oh, dude I-

Joe Rogan 53:08 I use it all the time

Speaker 53:09 ... every week.

Joe Rogan 53:10 It's great for buying books, audiobooks. It's great for buying products. But for watching content, it's kind of a mess.

Speaker 53:17 I-

Joe Rogan 53:17 They had a couple big shows, like The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel and The Terminal List. Those are great shows.

Speaker 53:23 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 53:23 And those brought a lot of people over there. But I mean, you know how big The Terminal List would've been if it was on Netflix, as big as it was on Amazon? More people watch Netflix-

Speaker 53:31 For sure

Joe Rogan 53:32 ... than ev- were, are ever gonna watch anything on Amazon.

Speaker 53:34 For sure. That's why w-what Jake's doing with the Netflix and bringing boxing, MMA there, like, it's, it's big, man.

Joe Rogan 53:39 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 53:39 It's big. So many people are gonna be watching this.

Joe Rogan 53:42 Yes. 100%. But I think that if One was somewhere else, I think it would've been-

Speaker 53:47 I looked this all up as you were-

Joe Rogan 53:47 There you go

Speaker 53:48 ... on the way here today.

Joe Rogan 53:49 What?

Speaker 53:50 Yeah, I think I looked up that. Yeah, that got announced this morning.

Joe Rogan 53:51 An MMA fight?

Speaker 53:52 That's what that, yeah, it's the third fight on that card now. That's the Rousey card, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:55 Oh, wow. Interesting. That's very interesting. That is very interesting. That's a good fight.

Speaker 54:03 Dude, you said a lot of people don't go to Amazon to watch TV.

Joe Rogan 54:06 No.

Speaker 54:06 I just went, I just went down a rabbit hole for weeks 'cause I have a newborn at home, so I did the night shift, and I ran out of shit to watch on Netflix and with it, on Hulu and [laughs]

Joe Rogan 54:14 How do you run out of shit to watch on Netflix?

Speaker 54:16 Dude, staying up till 4:00 AM every night with a baby boy is like-

Joe Rogan 54:20 [laughs]

Speaker 54:20 ... I've w- hours of documentaries, hours of stuff. I switched over to Amazon, and it was like a whole new world, man. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 54:25 Well, there's a lot on there. It's just they don't have the same viewers. Like, our podcast is on Amazon. The numbers that we get from Amazon compared to everywhere else is so small.

Speaker 54:35 Yeah. Well, just-

Joe Rogan 54:35 It's just the reality of the way they've sort of marketed it, and Amazon Prime Video just doesn't have the audience that everything else does.

Speaker 54:43 Right. And it's such a big platform. You'd think it would be crossover from...

Joe Rogan 54:46 I think it's a mistake on their part because the, the, the, the product side is so big, and, like, Amazon for buying stuff is so big that it's almost like an afterthought. And they put some-

Speaker 54:56 That they have video

Joe Rogan 54:56 ... money in it, but not the same sort of focus. Also, the interface, when I've gone to it, is a little weird. It's hard to find things. It's not as simple. Like, the interface on Netflix is, like, the algorithm's great. It's really good at recommending you things.

Speaker 55:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:13 It knows what you like. It shows you things. It's easy to find things.

Speaker 55:17 For sure.

Joe Rogan 55:17 Amazon's, like, a little tricky. You go there, and you're like, "What?" But, see, the One FC thing faces the same problem that PFL has. Like, look, PFL is on ESPN Plus, so you would imagine PFL would get the same sort of audience that the UFC got, but it doesn't.

Speaker 55:33 No, of course not.

Joe Rogan 55:34 Because the UFC brand is like NFL. Like, the machine.

Speaker 55:38 How many-- Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:38 It's just

Speaker 55:39 Yeah, they, they own that space

Joe Rogan 55:41 But the fights on One FC are fucking amazing. Like especially the Muay Thai fights.

Speaker 55:47 With the small gloves?

Joe Rogan 55:48 Oh my God, man. And I w- I was trying to pitch this to Dana, so I started send, sending Dana. He goes, "Send me some." So I started sending him all these like high-level Muay Thai fights and high-level kickboxing fights, and they're fucking phenomenal. Look, he didn't like the Charles Oliveira, this [clears throat] excuse me, this Max Holloway/Charles Oliveira fight. He didn't like it. He like, "The BMF fight-

Speaker 56:14 Yeah, it was like, oh

Joe Rogan 56:14 ... he's like, 'The fight wasn't that good.'" I was like, "I thought it was a great fight."

Speaker 56:17 It was impressive if you were a fan of technique and a fan of how hard it is to do that to somebody like Max. Like super impressive.

Joe Rogan 56:23 And I was a fan of Max's defense. I mean, Oliveira was on his back in the first round. A lot of people would've got finished there.

Speaker 56:29 First minute, first minute and a half, I think.

Joe Rogan 56:30 Yes

Speaker 56:30 You know, dry

Joe Rogan 56:32 Dry, right

Speaker 56:33 I, I got finished there [laughs]

Joe Rogan 56:35 [laughs] Yeah, I mean, um, I think Oliveira's one of the greatest submission artists that ever competed in the sport.

Speaker 56:40 Yeah

Joe Rogan 56:40 If not the best.

Speaker 56:41 Numbers sh- I mean, numbers prove it

Joe Rogan 56:43 Yeah. And against elite guys, like you and like Justin, and like he's fucking good at that

Speaker 56:47 And then Gamrot. Dude, Gamrot is-

Joe Rogan 56:49 I know

Speaker 56:49 ... I trained with him for years. He's a wrestler, but his grappling is incredible, man

Joe Rogan 56:53 Bro, he got tied up in knots-

Speaker 56:55 Yeah

Joe Rogan 56:55 ... with Oliveira

Speaker 56:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 56:56 Oliveira's a nightmare

Speaker 56:57 I knew it could happen, but I didn't think it would be that, you know

Joe Rogan 56:59 I was stunned, too. I was like, "God, he's good. He's so good on the ground." So like props to Max for surviving. But if Dana didn't like it, so I started sending him this-

Speaker 57:08 For, for the, I mean, when you have the title of the BMF, like you wanna see some violence

Joe Rogan 57:13 I understand, but it's still just a fight. You can't fight outside-

Speaker 57:17 No

Joe Rogan 57:17 ... of your comfort zone

Speaker 57:18 Just because a BMF belt's on the line, you can't go out swinging for the fences.

Joe Rogan 57:21 Right

Speaker 57:21 But

Joe Rogan 57:22 I get it. I get what you're saying.

Speaker 57:23 Yeah

Joe Rogan 57:23 But I mean, o- on the feet, I think Oliveira was winning on the feet too

Speaker 57:26 Dude, he hurt Max in the first. I think he hurt him in the fifth

Joe Rogan 57:29 Well, he definitely hurt him in the fifth when they did the point down on the ground thing

Speaker 57:32 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 57:32 And then he cracked him and rocked him. Oliveira's fucking cool, man.

Speaker 57:35 He is, man. He is

Joe Rogan 57:37 He's so good

Speaker 57:37 He's just known, we put the label on the grappler because he's finished so many guys and so many bonuses, but he can strike, man

Joe Rogan 57:41 He's good everywhere. Like with the Chandler fight, he almost gets finished in the first round, comes back and hits him with a clean left hook in the second.

Speaker 57:48 Yeah. He's-

Joe Rogan 57:49 Even w- Fucking good, man

Speaker 57:50 Yeah, knocked him out

Joe Rogan 57:51 Yeah

Speaker 57:51 Even when I fought him, like he, he did a good job of picking where the fight happened. He wouldn't fight me in boxing range. It was either all the way in clinch or out, where he was keeping my body, staying long. Kicking range or clinching range is kind of where he fought me.

Joe Rogan 58:02 Mm-hmm

Speaker 58:03 The times I did have success was in the boxing range, but he didn't let that happen, you know?

Joe Rogan 58:06 Well, it j- just shows you how fucking good Ilia Topuria is

Speaker 58:10 Fuck

Joe Rogan 58:10 Goddamn, that dude

Speaker 58:12 Dude, I love Justin. I love, I'm a fan. I don't like this matchup for him.

Joe Rogan 58:16 Well, you know what? I mean, Justin knows what he's getting into, and i- it's hard to count that dude out. He's such an animal

Speaker 58:22 Yeah, he can land the shot, but-

Joe Rogan 58:23 And it's in the White House, who knows? Who knows what's gonna happen? But that dude has the touch of death

Speaker 58:30 Yeah

Joe Rogan 58:30 He has the touch of death

Speaker 58:31 And he's not a big guy. I've never seen him in person, but I was talking to somebody recently and they said, "No, he's 5'7", you know?"

Joe Rogan 58:37 He's small, man. He's not big

Speaker 58:39 Yeah

Joe Rogan 58:39 I mean, there's a photo of me standing next to him when we did the podcast. We're standing next to each other. He's much smaller than me. And bro, he puts people into the shadow realm

Speaker 58:48 Yeah. Oh, yeah

Joe Rogan 58:49 It's just technique and po- and confidence. His confidence is crazy. He had a s- he had a victory party for the Oliveira fight the night before

Speaker 58:58 Drinking wine. I saw, I saw, yeah

Joe Rogan 58:59 I don't think he was drinking wine

Speaker 59:00 No

Joe Rogan 59:01 I think he was drinking water the night before, but he has drank wine in weigh-ins

Speaker 59:04 Yeah

Joe Rogan 59:04 When he's getting ready to weigh in, uh, or what do, he, the weight cut. He's j- he, he, but he only did that for two camps he told me, though. He said, "It's too much. It's like fucking hungover the next day," like, "What am I doing?"

Speaker 59:15 Right, and you're about to get your brain beat up. You're dehydrating. You're drink- come on

Joe Rogan 59:17 Well, I think he's dehydrating himself, and he's sa- said the wine actually helps you get dehydrated

Speaker 59:21 Yeah, alcohol definitely does

Joe Rogan 59:23 Yeah, which is, but it's, nobody does that.

Speaker 59:24 No

Joe Rogan 59:24 Nobody drinks wine for the weigh-ins. That's crazy

Speaker 59:27 No, bro. And like-

Joe Rogan 59:29 [laughs]

Speaker 59:30 I'm so, I'm not drinking anything. I'm so depleted by that time, you know?

Joe Rogan 59:32 I know, and he's getting hammered [laughs]

Speaker 59:34 Lucky

Joe Rogan 59:35 It is

Speaker 59:36 And winning world championships

Joe Rogan 59:37 Well, it was only two fights he did that for, so it became like something where people were pretending he does it every weigh-in

Speaker 59:42 He's got all these young fighters out there in the world drinking on weigh-in day.

Joe Rogan 59:45 [laughs]

Speaker 59:45 I'm gonna b- b- be like the champ, man.

Joe Rogan 59:48 Yeah. But he's, he's, he's crazy talented

Speaker 59:52 For sure. For sure

Joe Rogan 59:53 In a weird way

Speaker 59:53 Whatever it is, he has it

Joe Rogan 59:55 Yeah

Speaker 59:55 It, he has it

Joe Rogan 59:56 He's got it in his mind. He's got it in his technique, his grappling skill. I've watched a video of him grappling with Merab, and he was all over Merab.

Speaker 1:00:03 And that's-

Joe Rogan 1:00:04 It was crazy

Speaker 1:00:04 ... they, that's what they say, his grappling's just as good if not better than his, his stand up

Joe Rogan 1:00:08 That's where he started.

Speaker 1:00:09 I've never seen him-

Joe Rogan 1:00:09 He started as a grappler

Speaker 1:00:10 I've never seen him grapple, though

Joe Rogan 1:00:11 Well, he finished, um, Bryce Mitchell on the ground, and, uh, he's, he's finished a few people on the ground. He's, he's like, he does clearly have phenomenal submission ability. What are you showing me here? What is this of him? He says is he's done it for a long time

Speaker 1:00:28 Yeah, you can see his face-

Joe Rogan 1:00:29 He said that

Speaker 1:00:29 ... is already sucked in a little bit

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 He said that when he was on the podcast, though, that he only did it twice Three years ago That's hilarious. Look, he's all tipsy and drunk

Speaker 1:00:38 Look, I tell this to young fi- there's no right- I mean, obviously, don't smoke crack before a fight. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 [laughs]

Speaker 1:00:43 There's no right or wrong way. Everybody's different.

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 Right

Speaker 1:00:45 Whatever makes you feel comfortable to perform and f- compete, like everybody's different. There's n- if there was a cookie cutter, perfect way to work, everybody would do it

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 Well, look at Carlos Prates

Speaker 1:00:54 Yeah, exactly. Smoking cigs

Joe Rogan 1:00:55 Smoking cigarettes like the day of the fight. He's sitting there smoking Marlboro Reds

Speaker 1:01:00 Darts. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:01:02 [laughs]

Speaker 1:01:02 Who was the boxer-

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 And just fucking everybody up

Speaker 1:01:04 Back in the day

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 Oh, yeah, Mayorga

Speaker 1:01:06 Mayorga

Joe Rogan 1:01:06 Ricardo Mayorga

Speaker 1:01:07 Yes

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 Yeah

Speaker 1:01:07 Yes. He would smoke-

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 He would smoke cigarettes

Speaker 1:01:09 Yeah, drinking, fucking, uh, Carlos drinking whiskey, smoking cigs

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 I know

Speaker 1:01:13 Like-

Joe Rogan 1:01:14 He's like, "I'm always gonna party"

Speaker 1:01:15 ... and going out there-

Joe Rogan 1:01:15 "And always gonna fuck people up."

Speaker 1:01:17 Respect

Joe Rogan 1:01:18 Yeah. I mean, he's gonna fight, is he fighting Jack Della Maddalena? Is that the fight?

Speaker 1:01:23 I'm not sure

Joe Rogan 1:01:24 I believe that's the fight in Perth. That is a very good fight

Speaker 1:01:27 Yeah. A tough one for Jack to come back to, man

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:01:30 I was in, I was in, uh, MSG when, when Islam took the belt from him, dude, complete domination

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 Well, that's another guy. Like how good-

Speaker 1:01:37 Complete domination

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 ... is that guy?

Speaker 1:01:37 And Ilia was talking about fighting him, too. You know, the size difference-

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:01:41 ... would be so big

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 So big

Speaker 1:01:42 Islam is huge

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 He's huge

Speaker 1:01:44 He's huge

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 He's too big for 55, and then you see him at 170, like how did you ever make 55?

Speaker 1:01:50 Right. Right

Joe Rogan 1:01:51 He's, 'cause he's so dominant at 170

Speaker 1:01:54 Yeah, Hunter-Uh, from the UFC. I was in his office not too long ago, and I-- They keep record of all the weights fight night. They don't release them all, but they keep it. And we were talking about the Islam fight when I fought Islam, and he was telling me his weight. I was like, "That's insane."

Joe Rogan 1:02:05 What did he weigh?

Speaker 1:02:07 192 or something, I think.

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 The day of the fight?

Speaker 1:02:10 I think so, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 That's crazy.

Speaker 1:02:11 Something, more... 190, 191.

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 That's crazy.

Speaker 1:02:13 Something around there.

Joe Rogan 1:02:14 That's crazy.

Speaker 1:02:15 I was 176.

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 That's cra- But it looks like it in the cage. Like, whenever I interview him-

Speaker 1:02:20 I know. I look across in the, under those spotlights, and he had veins in his shoulders and shit. I'm like, "Fuck, this guy's huge."

Joe Rogan 1:02:25 The ones to where I'm like, "How?" Gregory Rodriguez is the one where I'm like, "How?"

Speaker 1:02:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:30 How? How, how are you 185? How?

Speaker 1:02:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 You're 6'3", y- you're built like a Greek god. How, how do you ever weigh 185?

Speaker 1:02:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 How is that even possible? Whenever I interview him, I'm like, "How?"

Speaker 1:02:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:43 'Cause I'm standing next to you, and I'm like, "That doesn't make any sense."

Speaker 1:02:47 Dude-

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 Like, this doesn't... You're not a 185-pound guy. You're huge.

Speaker 1:02:50 Like, in his prime when Luke Rockhold was a champion, he's huge, man.

Joe Rogan 1:02:54 Huge.

Speaker 1:02:55 Huge.

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 Huge.

Speaker 1:02:55 185.

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 Yoel Romero.

Speaker 1:02:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 Yoel Romero's the w- the best example. Like, how? How are you 185?

Speaker 1:03:01 Built like an anvil, dude.

Joe Rogan 1:03:02 Yeah.

Speaker 1:03:02 Solid all the way through.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 When he came in to do the podcast and Joey Diaz translated for him, he was, like, 230.

Speaker 1:03:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 Just, like, his neck starts at the top of his head. Just, just a tank.

Speaker 1:03:12 And l- shredded always.

Joe Rogan 1:03:13 Shredded. [laughs]

Speaker 1:03:14 No, no jiggle. Dude, shredded always. Veins in his abs, like, crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:03:18 Yeah, and he was, he was talking about the Cuban program. I'll never forget. It was like talking about, like, how they have the l- the lower level guys only eat twice a day, but the, the top level guys eat three times a day. And so everybody is competing literally for food.

Speaker 1:03:35 Crazy you say that. In Angola prison in Louisiana, there's a boxing league. If you're on the boxing league and get accepted into it, you get more meals and stuff. So the same thing, these, these prisoners are, like, trying their best to stay on this boxing league. You get more meals, more time, more free time.

Joe Rogan 1:03:50 Wow.

Speaker 1:03:51 They actually fight other prisons, man.

Joe Rogan 1:03:52 Whoa.

Speaker 1:03:53 I was thinking this would be a great documentary to come out with.

Joe Rogan 1:03:56 That would be a great documentary.

Speaker 1:03:57 And it's CCTV to the other prisons, so other prisons can watch in their cells.

Joe Rogan 1:04:02 Whoa.

Speaker 1:04:03 They bus them to Angola, other prisons in Louisiana, they box.

Joe Rogan 1:04:07 Wow.

Speaker 1:04:07 They put out a schedule every year. If you ever wanna go to one-

Joe Rogan 1:04:09 What?

Speaker 1:04:09 It's invite only, but I, I, I can-

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 I'd rather watch at home.

Speaker 1:04:12 It's cr-

Joe Rogan 1:04:12 But it's awesome. [laughs]

Speaker 1:04:12 Bro, it feels, it feels illegal, dude. It feels illegal.

Joe Rogan 1:04:16 Well, it might not be legal in other states.

Speaker 1:04:18 Yeah, it might not be legal in Louisiana. I might be getting in trouble for, for saying this.

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 [laughs] Is anybody any good?

Speaker 1:04:24 Hell yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 Well, I think Bernard Hopkins-

Speaker 1:04:26 I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 ... came out of jail.

Speaker 1:04:27 I mean, the guy, obviously Tyson beat him, but the Black Rhino was an Angola boxing prisoner who got out or pardoned to, to fight Mike Tyson.

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 Really?

Speaker 1:04:36 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:38 Wow. That's crazy. I did not know that.

Speaker 1:04:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 So do they have a program where they have coaches and...

Speaker 1:04:45 They have to.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 Do they have equipment and everything?

Speaker 1:04:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:48 Wow.

Speaker 1:04:48 Yeah. And different, according to the schedule, they'll bus them to the other prisons to fight, and it's played through all the prisons in Louisiana.

Joe Rogan 1:04:56 Man, you find a highly skilled guy who's in that program-

Speaker 1:04:59 And they let them go, bro

Joe Rogan 1:05:00 ... they got nothing to lose.

Speaker 1:05:01 The refs, they're legitimate refs, but they let-

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:05:03 ... the fights go, man.

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 What kind of nutrition are they getting, though? They getting prison food?

Speaker 1:05:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 Or do they get any better food if they're boxing?

Speaker 1:05:09 No, I think p- prison food, but they get more meals.

Joe Rogan 1:05:11 Ooh.

Speaker 1:05:11 They get to eat extra.

Joe Rogan 1:05:12 Still is terrible food, right?

Speaker 1:05:14 Yeah. Yeah, Angola's a crazy, crazy prison, man. Grow all the food there, make all the clothes there.

Joe Rogan 1:05:20 They grow their food there?

Speaker 1:05:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 Oh, so maybe the food's not that bad.

Speaker 1:05:23 Self-sustaining. Self-sustaining. I'm sure they ship a bunch of stuff in, but they do have crops.

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 Wow.

Speaker 1:05:27 And it's such a big operation that, uh, the guards and the staff live on the prison grounds. There's a s- elementary school.

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 Really?

Speaker 1:05:35 Yeah, there's elem- the, the worker, the guards' kids and stuff go to school on the grounds. It's, it's wild, man.

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 Oh, that can't be good.

Speaker 1:05:42 It's wild. Every October, they have a, uh, the rodeo there.

Joe Rogan 1:05:45 Article about that boxing association from 2011. Wow. Some photos and an interview with some people I think that were a part of it. Well, you wanna focus.

Speaker 1:05:54 Couldn't find video.

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 You know, women weaken legs. Ain't no women in there, dog.

Speaker 1:05:57 Hell no.

Joe Rogan 1:05:59 That's crazy.

Speaker 1:06:00 Yeah, serious business, man.

Joe Rogan 1:06:02 I did not know that. That's nuts, man. Yeah, how come no one's done a documentary on this?

Speaker 1:06:07 I know.

Joe Rogan 1:06:07 Or have they?

Speaker 1:06:08 I know. Well, B-Hop was a prison boxer in Philly, right?

Joe Rogan 1:06:12 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 1:06:12 Yeah. Yeah, this would be a great documentary, man.

Joe Rogan 1:06:15 Yeah.

Speaker 1:06:15 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 Yeah, Bernard learned, I mean, I mean, l- learned, like, real discipline in prison and also learned that he never wants to go back.

Speaker 1:06:23 No.

Joe Rogan 1:06:24 You know, which is as important.

Speaker 1:06:27 And I think Angola's, like, maximum security, so you don't go there if, if you have less than, like, 25 years or something. So these guys are in there for a long time just trying to find things to do, and boxing, eating extra, getting more free time, why wouldn't you do it?

Joe Rogan 1:06:40 Also-

Speaker 1:06:41 Get in shape

Joe Rogan 1:06:41 ... keeps you focused. You have something to concentrate on other than the fact that you're in jail.

Speaker 1:06:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:47 Yeah.

Speaker 1:06:48 It was wild, bro. They set up a ring, like, in a cafeteria. I went there once to watch it. It wa- it was insane.

Joe Rogan 1:06:53 Wow.

Speaker 1:06:54 It felt like I was doing something wrong. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 [laughs]

Speaker 1:06:56 It felt like I was doing something wrong.

Joe Rogan 1:06:58 Were the guys good?

Speaker 1:06:59 Fuck yeah. Some of them were good, man.

Joe Rogan 1:07:00 Wow.

Speaker 1:07:01 Really good.

Joe Rogan 1:07:02 Wow. Fuck. Of what... So that's interesting they pardoned that guy to f- who's the Black Rhino?

Speaker 1:07:07 There's titles, too. They have belts. The Black Rhino. Cliff- Clifford maybe?

Joe Rogan 1:07:11 Uh, Etienne.

Speaker 1:07:12 Yes. Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:07:13 Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Speaker 1:07:14 So he was in prison boxing in Angola, and he fought Tyson.

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 Wow. No shit.

Speaker 1:07:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:20 I mean, why not, man? At least it gives them something to focus on. The idea is like, oh, you're gonna make a more dangerous felon. Bro, they're dangerous.

Speaker 1:07:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:28 They're danger- They're in there for murder. What do you think, what do you think? They're in there for armed robbery, murder. Like, let them fight.

Speaker 1:07:34 Right. Doing life, like...

Joe Rogan 1:07:36 Right. Exactly. Like, also, are we trying to pretend that that's not gonna improve the quality of their life and im- improve them as a human being? Like, doing something difficult, even if it's difficult and violent like fighting, will make you a better human being.

Speaker 1:07:49 For sure.

Joe Rogan 1:07:49 Make you tougher-

Speaker 1:07:50 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:07:50 ... smarter, more disciplined, more focused. Also, release all the aggression there so you don't have aggression in, like, regular altercations nearly as much.

Speaker 1:08:00 Yeah. That's where I'm at right now. Like, leaving fightingIn the rearview, it's like, "What do I do with my life now?"

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 Are you still training at all?

Speaker 1:08:07 Days, days are long. Dude, I've been traveling so much. Twice a week maybe, you know? If I'm home on Friday, I do open mat jiu-jitsu.

Joe Rogan 1:08:14 Mm.

Speaker 1:08:14 A couple kickboxing classes if I can make it, but I, I've just been traveling so much, man.

Joe Rogan 1:08:18 Why have you been traveling so much?

Speaker 1:08:19 Sponsors, appearances, cornering buddies. Like, just saying yes to everything that I couldn't before.

Joe Rogan 1:08:26 Right.

Speaker 1:08:26 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:08:26 Right.

Speaker 1:08:27 I'm more busy now, I think, because before I would shut everything down. Like, "I gotta get ready for this fight. I have to focus on this. No, I can't do anything. Black out these dates." Now, it's like-

Joe Rogan 1:08:36 You're really good on the desk, man.

Speaker 1:08:37 I enjoy it, man. I really do enjoy it.

Joe Rogan 1:08:38 You can tell, yeah.

Speaker 1:08:40 So-

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 I mean, I think that's one of the best things that the UFC does with, uh, former fighters is they give them this opportunity to do stuff on the desk. I think that's huge.

Speaker 1:08:49 I, I, I hope they keep bringing me. I just signed a contract for the year. Um, when it was ESPN, I was kinda doing, like, independent s- contractor stuff. They would ask me, I would say yes. But I'm on contract with the UFC for a year, so hopefully they keep bringing me, man. I ... All the people behind the scenes, just being around the event that I've, you know, I've fought at for so long, it just makes me feel good.

Joe Rogan 1:09:08 Yeah. No, it's great.

Speaker 1:09:09 And I get nervous 'cause it's live TV, you can't fuck up.

Joe Rogan 1:09:11 Uh-huh.

Speaker 1:09:12 You know, live TV's different.

Joe Rogan 1:09:13 Well, I would like to see they allow more of you guys to take the, the spots doing fights in commentary.

Speaker 1:09:20 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:09:21 You know?

Speaker 1:09:21 Like color?

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, right now it's just Dominick Cruz, Paul Felder, Michael Bisping, and DC. That's essentially it.

Speaker 1:09:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:30 I mean, those are the, those are the only former fighters from the UFC that are doing it, and I, I really think there's room for more guys.

Speaker 1:09:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:37 Dan Hardy was great.

Speaker 1:09:38 Yeah, for sure.

Joe Rogan 1:09:38 He, he was awesome at it.

Speaker 1:09:39 Yeah, he was.

Joe Rogan 1:09:40 I don't know what the fuck happened with him-

Speaker 1:09:41 He-

Joe Rogan 1:09:41 ... and the UFC. They had some sort of a squabble and he left, but he's fantastic over at PFL.

Speaker 1:09:46 He still with them?

Joe Rogan 1:09:47 Yeah.

Speaker 1:09:47 Yeah?

Joe Rogan 1:09:48 Yeah, he does that. He's really good, man. He's a smart-

Speaker 1:09:50 Yeah, he breaks stuff down. He's l-

Joe Rogan 1:09:51 Very good.

Speaker 1:09:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:53 Very good. And he's a great guy. I've known him forever. He was a 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu guy, so I've known him since like ... Fuck, I must have met him 20 years ago.

Speaker 1:10:01 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:10:02 Yeah.

Speaker 1:10:03 I didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 1:10:03 Yeah, before he was fighting GSP, before he was fighting any of those guys, I, I knew him.

Speaker 1:10:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:10 He would come over from England to train in America.

Speaker 1:10:12 He was such a knockout artist, we never really get to see him-

Joe Rogan 1:10:14 Right

Speaker 1:10:15 ... do jiu-jitsu.

Joe Rogan 1:10:15 Yeah, no, he was good at jiu-jitsu too, man. I mean, he trained hard. And he's just a very smart dude. He knows a lot about the sport.

Speaker 1:10:22 Yeah, it seems like it. When he's breaking down stuff, you can tell he's studied.

Joe Rogan 1:10:26 He's also just, like, a very skillful commentator because he's very intelligent in his ... In the way he describes things, it's exciting. I mean, I think he, they ... I don't know what happened with them.

Speaker 1:10:37 I tr- Man, when I'm on the desk with those guys, I try my best to not break things down too much, like, on the stat side. I try to make it seem like a conversation sitting on the couch watching fights with your boys, where I talk about experiences that I've had and stuff, 'cause they explained it to me, like, that's what fans wanna see. If they wanna look up stats, they'll go look it up. They don't wanna hear you talk about submission attempts and s- exact stats. They wanna know your-

Joe Rogan 1:10:59 Yeah

Speaker 1:10:59 ... experience.

Joe Rogan 1:11:00 Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:00 So, like, each rep I'm think I'm getting better, you know? Opening up and being more myself. I'm trying to do a good job, man. I really, really enjoy it.

Joe Rogan 1:11:06 I think stats are interesting sometimes, but what's really more important than that is, like, a technical breakdown of abilities.

Speaker 1:11:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:11:13 Because stats, it's, you know, it's variable depending on who you're fight... Like, like, you take Charles Oliveira's stats and then you say his fight with Islam Makhachev, and you say, "Okay, well, where's the stats?" Like, it's d- it's like it's, it's really dependent upon skillsets, who's your level of competition, who you're competing with.

Speaker 1:11:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:31 You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:11:32 That was a quick submission, though.

Joe Rogan 1:11:35 [sighs] Bro.

Speaker 1:11:35 The stats are one submission attempt, one submission.

Joe Rogan 1:11:37 Bro, he's got a crushing squeeze. We can speak to that.

Speaker 1:11:40 It's different, bro. It's d- Yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:11:41 Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:42 Yeah, he strangled me. And the way he did it, I think he, uh, Moicano filled in last minute to fight Islam and got caught with the same choke.

Joe Rogan 1:11:49 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:11:50 It's kind of like a, a D'Arce choke, but he locks it on his forearm.

Joe Rogan 1:11:53 Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:54 He doesn't go to the bicep.

Joe Rogan 1:11:55 I know.

Speaker 1:11:55 And the squeeze is different. He's pulling to his chest. It's not like a angle squeeze.

Joe Rogan 1:12:00 Mm.

Speaker 1:12:00 It's, it's different, so the defense is different. When I got my legs out and tried to walk around, he, he hooked my leg, but, like, the squeeze was completely different.

Joe Rogan 1:12:06 Mm.

Speaker 1:12:06 Completely different. You know, you belly down and kinda get some space to breathe? You can't when, the way he does it.

Joe Rogan 1:12:12 Craig Jones broke it down.

Speaker 1:12:14 It's like a front choke, almost like a-

Joe Rogan 1:12:16 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:12:16 ... like a s-

Joe Rogan 1:12:17 Yeah

Speaker 1:12:17 ... squeeze to your chest. It's not a angle that you use for a normal D'Arce choke.

Joe Rogan 1:12:20 I know. I was shocked the first time I saw him do it. I was like, "Maybe he just, like, couldn't cinch up the bicep." And then I saw him do it a second time. I was like, "No, no, no, this guy's trying to do it that way." He, he grabs right here, right?

Speaker 1:12:32 Yes. Yeah, yeah. And he-

Joe Rogan 1:12:32 Craig, Craig Jones did an awesome-

Speaker 1:12:33 ... pulls to his chest

Joe Rogan 1:12:34 ... breakdown of it on YouTube, where he explains why it's effective and what's so good about it.

Speaker 1:12:40 And it, when he gets the grip locked in, like, it's complete, immediate blood shutdown. You know, usually you feel it slowly fading away.

Joe Rogan 1:12:46 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:12:46 It was, like, com- [snaps fingers] right away.

Joe Rogan 1:12:48 Wow, so that dude's got a back that you can drive through movie on.

Speaker 1:12:51 Like, the whole start ... The, the darkness started c- coming in, like, as soon as he got the grip.

Joe Rogan 1:12:55 Wow, really?

Speaker 1:12:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:56 He's so fucking strong, man. There's, like, something about those Dagestan guys, man. Like, the discipline those motherfuckers have.

Speaker 1:13:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:04 You know, there's Dagestan guys that are making their way into Muay Thai now, too. There's this dude, Asadulla Imangaziev. I talk about him all the time, but I can't talk about him enough.

Speaker 1:13:15 He's-

Joe Rogan 1:13:15 He's one of those ONE FC guys that is fighting, um, in Muay Thai from Dagestan, and this fucking kid is 22 years old and he's knocking out, like, multiple time world Thai champions.

Speaker 1:13:28 I've never seen him.

Joe Rogan 1:13:28 [sighs] Bro, this dude is a freak. I mean, he's a fre-

Speaker 1:13:34 Wow

Joe Rogan 1:13:34 ... he's just putting people into the shadow realm every fight.

Speaker 1:13:37 Dude, it's so wild to fight four ounce gloves [laughs] in Muay Thai.

Joe Rogan 1:13:40 I know.

Speaker 1:13:41 But I mean, you can throw elbows and stuff, and knees, so it-

Joe Rogan 1:13:43 It's perfect. It's, like, p- four ounce gloves, I mean, look, you're throwing elbows, knees, everything else, in the clinch.

Speaker 1:13:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:49 It allows you to grapple better.

Speaker 1:13:51 It just makes it so much more dangerous for the blocking, you know? You don't have the, the, the gloves covering all the space around your ears.

Joe Rogan 1:13:56 But this cat is special, man. He's special.

Speaker 1:13:59 Nasty body.

Joe Rogan 1:14:00 And, and he's from Dagestan. It's like, okay, imagine this motherfucker gets into MMA. Everybody's fucked. If this guy can wrestle at all, which you know he can if he's from fucking Dagestan.

Speaker 1:14:10 Well, they do a lot of kickboxing Sambo, right?

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 Yeah.This dude's something, though. He's something new.

Speaker 1:14:16 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 1:14:16 'Cause he's 22 years old, and he's, like, world Muay Thai champions. He's sleeping them all.

Speaker 1:14:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:22 It's nuts, man. And-

Speaker 1:14:24 What weight is that?

Joe Rogan 1:14:25 Uh, 145.

Speaker 1:14:27 Yeah, I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:14:27 I think it's 145 or 35. 145.

Speaker 1:14:30 Probably tall, taller than me.

Joe Rogan 1:14:32 132. 132? Is that what it says? No, this thing right here says, uh, on screen, weight limit 132.7. Interesting.

Speaker 1:14:40 5'10".

Joe Rogan 1:14:42 Interesting. 60 kilograms.

Speaker 1:14:43 Yeah. [coughs] 20, 22 years old, man.

Joe Rogan 1:14:46 Well, at that weight... Well, and then you think about one has some crazy thing. Look at this, win, knockout, win, knockout, win, knockout. He's a freak, man. And that one dude that made it to the unanimous decision is just this kid from Morocco who's just tough as shit, but goddamn, he took a beating.

Speaker 1:15:03 They have such a great product, man. I wonder how many, like, viewers and how the ratings are.

Joe Rogan 1:15:07 I mean, it's big in Asia, but, um, they're, they have financial struggles. I don't wanna speak to it 'cause I don't know enough, but there's a lot of talk, yes.

Speaker 1:15:15 I know they wanted to start doing shows in America.

Joe Rogan 1:15:17 They've done a few.

Speaker 1:15:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:18 Uh, I know they did one in Colorado. They maybe have done multiple. I'm not aware. But, uh, it's a great product. That's the thing. It's like I love watching their kickboxing fights on YouTube. And that kid, Yuki Yoza, that I was telling you about that throws calf kicks, he's fucking everybody up with calf kicks. And there's another guy from... A lot of these Kyokushin guys, especially in kickboxing. So, like, they have different rule sets over there in one. You can fight kickboxing, where they w- use big gloves, or you could fight Muay Thai, where they use little gloves, and I think they've had Muay Thai fights where they have big gloves too.

Speaker 1:15:52 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:15:52 So, in the kickboxing, you're not allowed to clinch, you're not allowed to throw elbows. But in the... But you, you can throw knees, but you can't clinch and just continue to throw knees.

Speaker 1:16:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:00 And you can't sweep, and you can't take guys down. It's a little confusing. I think Muay Thai's the way to go. But the thing about kickboxing in Japan is, like, they just wanted a... That's w- what K-1 was. They w- they're like, "Let's just take out all the clinching and make this as exciting as possible. What's the best way to do that?" And the elbows, elbows are very effective, obviously, and knock a lot of guy, guys out, but also cut a lot of people open and stop fights prematurely, which is why Pride didn't allow elbows, which is really crazy when you think about that.

Speaker 1:16:33 Yeah, well-

Joe Rogan 1:16:33 Because Pride had soccer kicks and stomps.

Speaker 1:16:35 But you were fighting multiple times.

Joe Rogan 1:16:38 True.

Speaker 1:16:38 Cuts, you know, if you get cut in the first fight, it could change everything. I think that makes sense.

Joe Rogan 1:16:41 I kinda, but, I mean, soccer kicks? Stomps and soccer kicks-

Speaker 1:16:45 Gotcha [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:16:45 ... with no elbows?

Speaker 1:16:46 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:46 It's hard to say because for ground-

Speaker 1:16:48 And knee- knees to a grounded guy.

Joe Rogan 1:16:49 Yeah.

Speaker 1:16:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:50 'Cause ground and pound elbows are so effective. It's so important. I mean, it really, like... Guys that think they're comfortable and safe in the guard, you're not.

Speaker 1:16:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:59 You're, you're not when a guy can still bust you up with elbows from a short distance. It's a very effective technique.

Speaker 1:17:04 Yeah, very damaging-

Joe Rogan 1:17:05 Yeah

Speaker 1:17:05 ... cut. Yeah. It is very, very damaging technique.

Joe Rogan 1:17:09 Well, there's a real problem with the cage, and the problem is the wall. Like, the, the fence is an artificial structure that keeps you from being able to move. And I've always said this, that I, I think it should be an open mat. It should be a large mat. And you should, you should not-

Speaker 1:17:25 Like a wrestling mat?

Joe Rogan 1:17:25 Yeah, like a big m- wrestling mat. Like, think about a basketball game. Like, think about how much space is on a basketball court.

Speaker 1:17:32 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:17:32 And you still get 16,000 people in there to watch a basketball game.

Speaker 1:17:35 Guys would be, I th- I would think running, running around a lot of-

Joe Rogan 1:17:40 You know, maybe you get penalty. Penalty for moving too much. Maybe you have red zones.

Speaker 1:17:43 Like Pride? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:44 You have a red zone.

Speaker 1:17:44 Yellow card or-

Joe Rogan 1:17:45 Well, you have a, you have a center that you're supposed to stay in, and then you have a red zone outside of it, and then you have a black zone outside the red zone where you get points taken away.

Speaker 1:17:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:54 You enter into the red zone too many times, you get a warning for the first time, another warning for the second time, third time you get a point taken away. So you could use it once or twice to evade-

Speaker 1:18:03 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:18:03 ... but then you gotta go back into the area where you're supposed to fight.

Speaker 1:18:06 I think that would be, that would be cool. How big of a s- of an area are you talking?

Joe Rogan 1:18:08 Basketball court.

Speaker 1:18:09 That's too big, man.

Joe Rogan 1:18:10 [laughs]

Speaker 1:18:11 That's too big.

Joe Rogan 1:18:11 How about football? How about a football fucking field? [laughs]

Speaker 1:18:15 That's too big.

Joe Rogan 1:18:15 Meet in the center.

Speaker 1:18:16 That's too big.

Joe Rogan 1:18:17 They're doing that with no-rules fights.

Speaker 1:18:19 Yeah?

Joe Rogan 1:18:19 Yeah, I watch a lot of no-rules fights. They're horrible.

Speaker 1:18:21 The Russian, the Russian stuff?

Joe Rogan 1:18:22 They're so scary because guys just mount guys and gouge their eyes out.

Speaker 1:18:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:26 They're mounting people and just shoving their fingers in their... And guys are screaming and tapping-

Speaker 1:18:30 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:18:30 ... and it's like, oh my.

Speaker 1:18:31 I run across some pretty crazy stuff on IG sometimes-

Joe Rogan 1:18:34 Oh, Lord

Speaker 1:18:34 ... from those crazy shows.

Joe Rogan 1:18:35 But they're fighting in parking lots. They're fighting on-

Speaker 1:18:38 Phone booths.

Joe Rogan 1:18:38 Yeah.

Speaker 1:18:39 Cars.

Joe Rogan 1:18:39 Yeah.

Speaker 1:18:39 Upside down. Underwater.

Joe Rogan 1:18:40 I've seen that.

Speaker 1:18:40 They're fighting everywhere.

Joe Rogan 1:18:41 They're fighting everywhere. [laughs]

Speaker 1:18:42 I saw them on a cargo container floating on the, on top of water, where you get knocked off and-

Joe Rogan 1:18:47 That's crazy. It's so ridiculous.

Speaker 1:18:49 Yeah. American Gladiators.

Joe Rogan 1:18:51 Literally get KO'd, and you fall into the water, and you just breathe water, and they don't rescue you in time.

Speaker 1:18:55 Just fight with f- those kid floaties on.

Joe Rogan 1:18:57 [laughs] If you get knocked out, you just float to the top.

Speaker 1:19:00 Instead of those Muay Thai things.

Joe Rogan 1:19:01 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Blow them up.

Speaker 1:19:03 Kid floaties on.

Joe Rogan 1:19:03 Your corners are, your corner's blowing them up. Yeah. But I think the cage... I, I'd like, like... You know how, like, the UFC, uh, BJJ-

Speaker 1:19:12 Yep

Joe Rogan 1:19:13 ... has that sloped surface?

Speaker 1:19:14 Uh-huh. A perfect example, Karate Combat.

Joe Rogan 1:19:17 Uh, Karate Combat. Karate Combat does that sloped surface.

Speaker 1:19:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:19 That's a good one.

Speaker 1:19:19 And that's a big space they fight in Karate Combat.

Joe Rogan 1:19:21 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 1:19:22 Something like that I think would be good.

Joe Rogan 1:19:23 It would be better. There's something about the... But the problem is then you're, you're backing up, and you hit that ramp, and you fall down.

Speaker 1:19:30 Or what, what was the old karate, uh... It was like, I don't think it was Chuck Norris' league.

Joe Rogan 1:19:35 Chuck Norris.

Speaker 1:19:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:35 Chuck Norris' league.

Speaker 1:19:35 His league, something like that.

Joe Rogan 1:19:36 Yeah, I think it was World Combat League or something like... I went to see that one.

Speaker 1:19:39 W- WCF or something.

Joe Rogan 1:19:41 Yeah.

Speaker 1:19:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:41 Something like that. World Combat Federation.

Speaker 1:19:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:44 I think the first guy to do a slanted thing, though, was Frank Shamrock, you know? A lot of people don't realize that Frank Shamrock had an organization for a while.

Speaker 1:19:53 I didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 1:19:53 And they fought in, like, this sloped sort of thing.

Speaker 1:19:57 Like in kumite.

Joe Rogan 1:19:58 Yeah. I think he might've been the first guy. Frank was way ahead of his time. Way ahead of his time.

Speaker 1:20:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:05 And he's another guy that got erased from, 'cause he had a falling out with the UFC, and he got kind of erased from the lineage of, like, elite fighters-

Speaker 1:20:13 And he was-

Joe Rogan 1:20:13 ... from the past

Speaker 1:20:14 ... fighting older in Strikeforce, like, still bodied up and-

Joe Rogan 1:20:17 I know.

Speaker 1:20:18 He was a student of, of martial arts.

Joe Rogan 1:20:20 Yes.

Speaker 1:20:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:20 Yes. But by the time he got to Strikeforce-His kind of best days were behind him, like when Nick Diaz beat him up.

Speaker 1:20:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:27 It was, he wasn't the same guy. When he fought Phil Baroni, he wasn't the same guy. He had a lot of knee problems and just like, just not ... After a while, it's like he might've been like 40s in Strikeforce or s- I don't know how old he was.

Speaker 1:20:40 Late 30s, 40s, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:20:41 Late 30s for sure. But when you go back to his fights in the UFC, I mean, he was a pioneer, man.

Speaker 1:20:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:20:48 When he fought Tito Ortiz, he was nowhere near Tito's size, and he just beat Tito with cardio.

Speaker 1:20:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:20:53 Just cardio and defense, and then eventually wore his ass down and beat him up, and changed Tito's entire strategy for fighting after that.

Speaker 1:21:00 He was one of the guys early who was like super fit-

Joe Rogan 1:21:02 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:21:02 ... super, you know, really focused on his, his health and, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:21:07 Yeah

Speaker 1:21:07 ... nutrition and-

Joe Rogan 1:21:08 Yeah

Speaker 1:21:08 ... supplementation and everything. Back then you didn't see a whole lot of that, but he was one of the guys for sure.

Joe Rogan 1:21:12 Well, the Lion's Den, you know, Ken Shamrock's, his c- the thing that they put guys through, this gauntlet that they put guys through in order to make the team, to make the fight team-

Speaker 1:21:23 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:21:24 ... was hell. It was just hell. They wanted guys to break. And so s- extreme conditioning, extreme mental toughness, like all that was emphasized.

Speaker 1:21:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:21:34 And so Frank was the best example of that though, because he was, he was elite everywhere. He was-

Speaker 1:21:40 For sure

Joe Rogan 1:21:40 ... really taking guys down. He had great submissions. He had great striking and, you know, he fought some wild fights, man. I m- he fought, uh, Ensign. I f- I don't remember where that was. Was that in K1? But he beat Ensign with knees. Like he, he'd fought in multiple organizations. Obviously, he started out in Pancrase.

Speaker 1:22:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:03 But he had only been training for like a year or something like that when he fought Bas Rutten in Pancrase. He was super fucking talented, man.

Speaker 1:22:11 Why ... They let him wear boots, right? Or some kind of leg-

Joe Rogan 1:22:14 Yeah. He had some weird shin pad deal with, well, you had wrestling shoes with shin pads-

Speaker 1:22:19 Right

Joe Rogan 1:22:20 ... and open hand slaps, you know?

Speaker 1:22:23 Yeah, yeah. It was always palm.

Joe Rogan 1:22:24 Uh-huh. Yeah. So what is this in? Does it say what it's in?

Speaker 1:22:28 Valle Tudo, but, um-

Joe Rogan 1:22:30 2011. This says UFC. It's not UFC. Oh, it's Valle Tudo Japan.

Speaker 1:22:35 It's this thing here is the one-

Joe Rogan 1:22:36 Yeah, this was before 2011. They just posted it.

Speaker 1:22:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:39 Okay, so this is Valle Tudo Japan. So Valle Tudo Japan, I wonder if it's the same Valle Tudo that Rickson fought in. So Rickson was, you know, the champion of Valle Tudo Japan early on. Well, that was like the, in the documentary Choke. You've seen that, right?

Speaker 1:22:55 Uh-huh. A long time ago, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:56 That documentary rules.

Speaker 1:22:58 Yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 1:22:58 That documentary rules. That's w- how Rickson became a legend.

Speaker 1:23:03 Back in the real NHB, no-

Joe Rogan 1:23:05 Yeah.

Speaker 1:23:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:06 No rules days.

Speaker 1:23:07 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:23:08 Well, the first UFC that I went to was UFC 12 in Dothan, Alabama, and you could wear wrestling shoes, you could punch guys in the nuts.

Speaker 1:23:16 Yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:23:17 Hair pulling.

Speaker 1:23:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:18 Grab their clothes. It didn't matter.

Speaker 1:23:19 No weight classes.

Joe Rogan 1:23:21 Uh, there was two weight classes back then. Um, like, 'cause Vitor won the heavyweight tournament back then. I think they had two weight classes back then. So they still recognized that there's some smaller guys and some big guys, and the smaller guys are real talented, but they're never gonna beat the big giant guys, so let's have a weight class for them.

Speaker 1:23:40 Yeah. I remember renting VHS tapes with my dad of the old UFCs, dude.

Joe Rogan 1:23:46 What got you into this sport? Like how old were you when you first started martial arts training, period?

Speaker 1:23:50 17.

Joe Rogan 1:23:51 17, that's late.

Speaker 1:23:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:53 If you think about it, right?

Speaker 1:23:55 Well, I mean, if you wanna call it wrestling, I wrestled for two years when I was 10 and 11 for a private club.

Joe Rogan 1:23:59 Mm.

Speaker 1:23:59 Did like traveling Texas a lot, Louisiana, small club meets. But other than that, no combat sports, no martial art experience.

Joe Rogan 1:24:07 How'd you get into it?

Speaker 1:24:08 Boxing, when I was 17, I wanted to box. Always wanted to box. Started going to a boxing gym. Met some MMA guys there. Didn't know they had MMA where I was from. Then went to the MMA gym and never went back to the boxing gym.

Joe Rogan 1:24:20 So what year are we talking?

Speaker 1:24:22 2006 maybe.

Joe Rogan 1:24:23 Oh, okay. So this was right when the UFC first started getting big.

Speaker 1:24:26 This is like, I remember when Stephan and, and Forrest did the big thing. This was like beginning around the time I was training, boxing and-

Joe Rogan 1:24:34 Wow

Speaker 1:24:34 ... and mixed martial arts. So that wave, like it just never stopped.

Joe Rogan 1:24:38 Wow.

Speaker 1:24:38 Yeah, man. What was it? The, uh, World Combat, like Chris Horodecki was over there. Ben Rothwell was over there.

Joe Rogan 1:24:47 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:47 Remember, what was that called? The team organization. That was big at the time.

Joe Rogan 1:24:51 Right. IFL?

Speaker 1:24:52 IFL.

Joe Rogan 1:24:53 Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:53 Yes. Everybody had teams and stuff. That-

Joe Rogan 1:24:55 That was weird

Speaker 1:24:56 ... that was real big around that time. Uh, yeah, I didn't know, being-

Joe Rogan 1:24:59 That's where Dan Miller, Jim's brother, landed the grossest guillotine I've ever seen in my life. Have you ever seen this one?

Speaker 1:25:06 I don't think so.

Joe Rogan 1:25:07 Oh my God, it's the worst guillotine of all time. He gets this guy in a guillotine, traps his head in his chest, and bends his chest so his head is connected to his own chest sideways.

Speaker 1:25:19 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:25:19 So like this, his head went all the way down and touched his chest. I don't even know how he stayed alive.

Speaker 1:25:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:25 Watch this. Watch this, watch this guillotine.

Speaker 1:25:27 There it is, I felt-

Joe Rogan 1:25:27 Now check this out. No, watch this guillotine. Look at that. Look at that. Bro.

Speaker 1:25:31 Jesus.

Joe Rogan 1:25:32 Bro, how's that guy alive?

Speaker 1:25:33 He's not.

Joe Rogan 1:25:34 Look at that. Look at that. How is he alive? Have you ever seen that before, ever? Like, that's crazy.

Speaker 1:25:41 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:41 That is the craziest guillotine I've ever seen in my life. That's so crazy.

Speaker 1:25:45 It looks like his neck's broken, bro.

Joe Rogan 1:25:47 How, how's he alive?

Speaker 1:25:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:49 Like h- first of all, why did it take so long for the referee to stop it? Who's the referee?

Speaker 1:25:53 Steve Mazzagatti.

Joe Rogan 1:25:54 [laughs]

Speaker 1:25:55 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:25:56 No, I don't know who it is, but he could've probably stopped that a couple of seconds earlier. But I mean, it's just hard to imagine that a neck can go in that direction. Like, it's so ... It, the, that doesn't show it. The other angle that you showed is really what showed it.

Speaker 1:26:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:11 The other angle where you see it from the side, where you see his head. Like, when he, when he cinches it up here, that is crazy. That, you're not supposed to bend like that.

Speaker 1:26:22 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:26:22 You know? S- your ear's never supposed to touch your chest.

Speaker 1:26:24 No. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:26:25 I don't know how it does. I don't know. I mean, it just seems like everything would break. It seems like you would never walk again.

Speaker 1:26:31 He's not, Dan's not fighting anymore, huh?

Joe Rogan 1:26:33 No. Jim's still fighting.

Speaker 1:26:34 Jim's still rolling, man.

Joe Rogan 1:26:35 Jim's still fighting.

Speaker 1:26:36 Still rolling.

Joe Rogan 1:26:37 It's crazy.

Speaker 1:26:37 Most fights in UFC history.

Joe Rogan 1:26:39 And, and still fine. No surgeries, no nothing.

Speaker 1:26:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:42 Still durable.

Speaker 1:26:43 Did get beat up I th- was his last fight Bobby Green?

Joe Rogan 1:26:46 Yeah.

Speaker 1:26:46 That was the last time I think I saw him fight.

Joe Rogan 1:26:47 I don't know if that was his last fight, but he definitely got beat up in that one.

Speaker 1:26:49 That was, I think that was his last one, so.

Joe Rogan 1:26:50 He's definitely lost a step. I mean, he's 40 years old.

Speaker 1:26:53 He's... Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:53 But man, dude still loves it. Still loves it.

Speaker 1:26:56 Respect to him, dude.

Joe Rogan 1:26:57 Yeah. I mean, he-

Speaker 1:26:59 He sent me a cook- a cookbook. He came out with a cookbook. He's a big sh- cook and hunter and stuff, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:27:03 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 1:27:03 He sent me a cookbook and a, a spatula. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:27:06 Oh, that's hilarious.

Speaker 1:27:07 It, it's like Captain Redbeard or Jimmy Redbeard on the spatula.

Joe Rogan 1:27:09 [laughs]

Speaker 1:27:09 It's like eng- engraved into it. [laughs] Fuck yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:27:11 He's quite a character.

Speaker 1:27:12 Yeah, I like him. I like him, man.

Joe Rogan 1:27:14 I like him a lot, too. He's a very fun dude. And also, complete wits about him, doesn't have any problems mentally. You know, he's like, all those fights-

Speaker 1:27:21 Seems like a hard worker. He's always on his farm doing stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:27:23 Yeah.

Speaker 1:27:23 Like, you would never think he was a fighter if you didn't know.

Joe Rogan 1:27:26 I know, right?

Speaker 1:27:27 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:27:28 Yeah. He's a, he's a fascinating character. Well, the thing about this sport is that it m- like, exceptional humans are exceptional at fighting. Like, to be an exceptional fighter, you have to be an exceptional person. There's really no way around it. There's like, it's too hard to do.

Speaker 1:27:44 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:27:44 You have to be a very unique kind of human being that can get through those camps, that can perform under the big lights, that can figure out how to keep getting better and evolve.

Speaker 1:27:53 For sure. And that type of stuff is like, the last time I was on the show, what I was talking about, it's like a gift and a curse, man. It's like you have to be all in at something. Those kind of people who are built like that-

Joe Rogan 1:28:02 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:28:03 ... whether it's fighting or drinking or whether it's good or bad-

Joe Rogan 1:28:07 Right, right

Speaker 1:28:07 ... you're going all in. It's dangerous.

Joe Rogan 1:28:09 That's the problem, yeah.

Speaker 1:28:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:28:10 The problem is, like we see with Conor, when they don't have the fighting, then they go all in with the other things.

Speaker 1:28:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:28:16 Yeah.

Speaker 1:28:16 Right. Fighting was always, for me, always pulled everything together, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:28:20 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:28:20 That's why, like, retiring is scary, man. Days are long. I have a lot of time. It's, I don't have to get ready for a fight. I don't, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:28:26 And you're still a young man, too. You still have a whole lot of life ahead of you.

Speaker 1:28:30 I'm 37, man.

Joe Rogan 1:28:31 Yeah, so it makes you think, like, "What do I do now? What do I do with my future? What do I do?" What do you wanna do?

Speaker 1:28:36 Dude, I kinda got like, for a f- a week or so, I wouldn't say depressed, but I kinda got into like a funk, like, "What the hell am I gonna do with my life?" Every day I would wake up for the last 20 years, "How can I be better fighter? How can I, what's new in fitness? How can I push myself? I wanna be the champion," and then boom, you lay the gloves down and you wake up and you're a fucking civilian. Like-

Joe Rogan 1:28:54 Right

Speaker 1:28:54 ... it feels crazy, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:28:56 Hm.

Speaker 1:28:57 It's like I'm relearning who I am. Like, I always knew fighting was just something I did, it wasn't who I was, but after 20 years of doing it, even though you know that and you think that, like it, it, fuck, I don't know who I am without fighting.

Joe Rogan 1:29:09 How long did it take you before you felt-

Speaker 1:29:10 I'm a father, I'm a husband, I'm a lot of things.

Joe Rogan 1:29:12 Right.

Speaker 1:29:12 But like, fighting was a cloud in my mind that never went away for 20 years.

Joe Rogan 1:29:18 Right.

Speaker 1:29:18 And now I wake up and it's, it's gone. Like, what do, what do I do? I'm still trying to find out, Joe. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:29:24 Did you still get nervous when you would go to events? You know, that feeling that you get, like you, you feel like-

Speaker 1:29:28 When I competed?

Joe Rogan 1:29:28 ... you could be competing. No, no, no.

Speaker 1:29:30 Yeah, dude.

Joe Rogan 1:29:30 When, when you go to other events for other people.

Speaker 1:29:32 Yeah, just-

Joe Rogan 1:29:32 By just feeling like you might have to compete.

Speaker 1:29:34 Dude, my hands are sweaty.

Joe Rogan 1:29:35 Yeah.

Speaker 1:29:36 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:29:36 That's weird, right?

Speaker 1:29:37 For sure.

Joe Rogan 1:29:38 I mean, obviously I, I never-

Speaker 1:29:39 It just happened to me last, a couple weeks ago when Max fought Charles. I was nervous. I had armpit stains.

Joe Rogan 1:29:44 [laughs]

Speaker 1:29:44 My hands were sweating. I'm like, "Dude, I hope those people don't, don't see this."

Joe Rogan 1:29:48 [laughs] Right, because you feel like you're still there in that, right.

Speaker 1:29:50 I'm connected to both these guys for some reason.

Joe Rogan 1:29:52 Well, you are, forever.

Speaker 1:29:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:29:54 Yeah. That's the thing. That's what's so interesting about watching, like, old fighters. Even old boxers, when they go to, like, hall of fame ceremonies and they're seeing each other and hugging, like those guys are connected in time forever. Forever.

Speaker 1:30:04 Yeah. Max, Max came up to the desk and I was like, "We spent an hour of our lives fighting each other t- you know, as hard as we could."

Joe Rogan 1:30:12 Yeah.

Speaker 1:30:12 He didn't even know. He's like, "No way, an hour?" I'm like, "Yeah, dude. We went to two decisions, two five-round decisions, and we fought-"

Joe Rogan 1:30:17 Right.

Speaker 1:30:17 "The, the first fight w- was a f- one or two rounds, so it's an hour of fighting."

Joe Rogan 1:30:21 Yeah.

Speaker 1:30:22 "We spent an hour-"

Joe Rogan 1:30:23 That's crazy

Speaker 1:30:23 ... "beating each other up."

Joe Rogan 1:30:24 That is crazy when you think about it.

Speaker 1:30:26 An hour is a long time, man. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:30:29 [laughs]

Speaker 1:30:29 An hour's a long time to fight another man.

Joe Rogan 1:30:30 Especially baring your soul in front of the world. It's not a regular hour-

Speaker 1:30:34 Right, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:30:35 ... just hanging out at the beach. [laughs]

Speaker 1:30:36 It's the biggest hour.

Joe Rogan 1:30:37 It's... [laughs]

Speaker 1:30:37 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:38 And it's an hour you prepared for for months each time.

Speaker 1:30:41 But because of that, like, like you were saying with the boxers, like we know, we have an unwritten thing we know about each other.

Joe Rogan 1:30:47 Yeah.

Speaker 1:30:47 You know? Something we never spoke about, but we know each other better than a lot of people do.

Joe Rogan 1:30:51 Yeah. You know when a person breaks and who doesn't break.

Speaker 1:30:54 Max doesn't break.

Joe Rogan 1:30:55 He doesn't break.

Speaker 1:30:56 No.

Joe Rogan 1:30:56 I mean, you see it in that fight. I mean, how's he, how does he go through that whole round and not get submitted?

Speaker 1:31:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:02 Dry, with Oliveira on his back, and got close a few times.

Speaker 1:31:06 For s-

Joe Rogan 1:31:07 Like, just crush his face.

Speaker 1:31:08 Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:09 You know?

Speaker 1:31:09 Like that old Shinya Aoki-

Joe Rogan 1:31:10 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:31:10 ... where you go the angle.

Joe Rogan 1:31:11 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:31:12 You, you can choke through the jaw.

Joe Rogan 1:31:13 Oh, yeah, man.

Speaker 1:31:14 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:31:14 Guys go to sleep with-

Speaker 1:31:15 Neck crank, it'll choke you-

Joe Rogan 1:31:16 Yeah

Speaker 1:31:16 ... to sleep through the jaw.

Joe Rogan 1:31:17 Well, even just a, a rear naked across your face, I've seen guys go to sleep.

Speaker 1:31:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:21 They just go to sleep. You try not to tap, and you just wake up and you're like, "How did he choke me out over my face?" 'Cause it's like a, enough blood restriction.

Speaker 1:31:29 If you get enough torsion and, and crank, it'll-

Joe Rogan 1:31:31 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:31:31 ... yeah, it'll cut off the vein or whatever. You know, it'll, it'll put you out.

Joe Rogan 1:31:34 Yeah. It's enough. It's, which is nuts. Yeah.

Speaker 1:31:36 And it's so much pain on the jaw, too.

Joe Rogan 1:31:38 Oh, it's horrible.

Speaker 1:31:39 Choking, getting lack of oxygen to the brain is one thing. Like, the jaw binding up against the bones, like you know that sharp pain you get-

Joe Rogan 1:31:46 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:31:46 ... when somebody's face cranking you and your jaw?

Joe Rogan 1:31:48 Oh, it's hell.

Speaker 1:31:49 Yeah, it feels like it's gonna dislocate.

Joe Rogan 1:31:50 Yeah. Well, that was the thing with Khabib and Conor, where he did that torque.

Speaker 1:31:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:31:54 That torque crank where he got his neck and he, he cinched it up with the forearm behind the neck.

Speaker 1:31:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:59 And pulls back like this. Like, that, uh, that is hell.

Speaker 1:32:02 And those guys' squeeze is different, man.

Joe Rogan 1:32:04 [exhales] Different.

Speaker 1:32:04 Those guys' squeeze is different.

Joe Rogan 1:32:06 Well, there's something about lifelong grapplers. There's, like, a density to them that's-

Speaker 1:32:11 And a-

Joe Rogan 1:32:11 ... just different

Speaker 1:32:12 ... the density, the strength, and just, like, the knowing of where to put the pressure and what angle to turn your hips to make a big difference.

Joe Rogan 1:32:21 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:32:21 You know? People outside don't even see it, but it's so, so crucial in the moment-

Joe Rogan 1:32:26 Yeah

Speaker 1:32:26 ... when somebody's on your back, and they just turn a little bit with their elbow, you know, rather than just squeeze straight on. Small things like that.Or w- you know, win, win fights

Joe Rogan 1:32:34 I'll tell you the fight that I'm really looking forward to, really looking forward to, 'cause I don't know what's gonna happen, is Khamzat versus Strickland. I'm very interested in that fight. Strickland is a fucking nightmare standing up.

Speaker 1:32:48 For sure.

Joe Rogan 1:32:49 He's a nightmare.

Speaker 1:32:50 For sure.

Joe Rogan 1:32:50 What he did to Fluffy Hernandez, I was like, "Holy shit, man."

Speaker 1:32:54 He ... The body shot, the finish. But he made Fluffy fight. You know, he fights at a slower pace. He has his own pace in there and, and he kinda forces the other guy to fight. His opponent has to fight this pace with him. I, I think the best, the best chance is to, to blitz him, do unorthodox things, 'cause he wants to jab, circle, throw a kick-

Joe Rogan 1:33:11 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:33:11 ... jab, circle. He keeps a very slow pace. He's not sprinting or trying to blast you outta there. He just-

Joe Rogan 1:33:16 Well, he doesn't get hit much

Speaker 1:33:17 ... chips, chips, chips away, high guard, good show.

Joe Rogan 1:33:19 Yeah, very good show.

Speaker 1:33:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:20 His defense is s- extraordinary. He, you know, one of the things he was telling me is, like, "I spar more than anybody and I get hit less than anybody." And that is true. Like, if you think about how much that guy spars, it's a giant part of his training.

Speaker 1:33:33 Well, look at James Toney. He was hard-

Joe Rogan 1:33:34 Right

Speaker 1:33:34 ... he was hard to hit and all he did was spar.

Joe Rogan 1:33:36 Yeah.

Speaker 1:33:36 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:33:36 Right. Perfect example.

Speaker 1:33:38 There's something taught in that, in those moments.

Joe Rogan 1:33:40 100%.

Speaker 1:33:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:41 Understanding of distance, timing, pattern recognition. You're constantly in there moving around.

Speaker 1:33:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:33:47 It's like ... And then there's also the cardio that comes from sparring.

Speaker 1:33:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:51 It's, it's different.

Speaker 1:33:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:52 Like, he, 'cause his cardio is almost entirely based on sparring. And man, that motherfucker doesn't get tired in there.

Speaker 1:33:59 Right, right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:34:00 And the Fluffy fight was, like, I thought Fluffy was gonna be a problem. I'm like, Fluffy's really good, man. You think, h- he submitted Rodolfo Vieira. He's got all this fucking crazy cardio. He puts a pace on guys and-

Speaker 1:34:13 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:34:13 ... Strickland made it look like he just did not belong in there.

Speaker 1:34:16 He's so heavy on that front foot, though. I can't believe guys aren't smashing that calf, man.

Joe Rogan 1:34:19 I know. Well, he's hard to hit, man, and he also knows how to do that, that, um, fucking, th- th- that hacky sack thing where, you know, like, you're bending your knee upwards. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1:34:30 To check it?

Joe Rogan 1:34:31 Yeah. Well, you don't even check it. You just kinda, like, uh, relax your leg and lift it up. You know who t- who showed me that? Is Alex Pereira. He's like, instead of checking it, it's like if you check it, it still hurts you.

Speaker 1:34:42 For sure.

Joe Rogan 1:34:43 But he just lifts his leg up. He just goes heel to knee on the opposite side, and so like a hacky sack move.

Speaker 1:34:49 Right, right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:34:49 It's-

Speaker 1:34:49 I've seen guys take thigh, leg kicks like that.

Joe Rogan 1:34:52 Yeah.

Speaker 1:34:53 Kinda let it swing a little.

Joe Rogan 1:34:54 But he does it with the calf, so it's like he sees it coming. Instead of doing that, stepping out and checking it, he ju- like, like he goes like this.

Speaker 1:35:01 That.

Joe Rogan 1:35:01 See that?

Speaker 1:35:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:35:02 Yeah, that's it. Well, that, I think in this instance, I think that was probably the f- I don't know if that was the first fight or the second fight, but i- Izzy's calf was already done. He was really hap- he told me after that fight, he goes, when he got stopped in the first fight, he goes, "Dude, I wasn't even that hurt. It wasn't that." He goes, "I couldn't move." He goes, "My calf was cooked."

Speaker 1:35:22 It doesn't, it doesn't go away.

Joe Rogan 1:35:26 Yeah, that one's crazy. That, that-

Speaker 1:35:27 That's hard to do, though

Joe Rogan 1:35:28 ... that's, that's kinda silly.

Speaker 1:35:29 It's a soccer move. That's hard to do.

Joe Rogan 1:35:30 That's kinda silly. I don't think he really does that in fights.

Speaker 1:35:32 Block it with the bottom of your foot.

Joe Rogan 1:35:33 He could, though. I'm very interested in that fight, too.

Speaker 1:35:36 Dude.

Joe Rogan 1:35:36 Him versus Ciryl Gane, that's very interesting.

Speaker 1:35:39 For sure, for sure. And, and I know the power's gonna translate over to, to heavyweight.

Joe Rogan 1:35:43 100%.

Speaker 1:35:43 That's not going anywhere. He'll be on a flat line heavyweights.

Joe Rogan 1:35:45 100%, especially-

Speaker 1:35:46 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:35:46 ... with zero weight cut.

Speaker 1:35:48 Yeah. He's probably 230, 240 walking around.

Joe Rogan 1:35:50 He is.

Speaker 1:35:51 230-something maybe.

Joe Rogan 1:35:51 He's 240.

Speaker 1:35:52 Yeah, dude, come on.

Joe Rogan 1:35:53 He's 240 walking around.

Speaker 1:35:54 That's a legit heavyweight. And he's big, tall, long.

Joe Rogan 1:35:57 He's a legit heavyweight. Fucking guy fought at 85.

Speaker 1:35:58 But so is Ciryl, man.

Joe Rogan 1:36:00 Ciryl's good.

Speaker 1:36:01 An athlete heavyweight.

Joe Rogan 1:36:02 He's good.

Speaker 1:36:02 Not just a big guy fighting at heavyweight, he's a legit heavyweight.

Joe Rogan 1:36:04 It is a crime in the sport that that fight with Aspinall got stopped the way it did, that he eye poked him. It's a crime.

Speaker 1:36:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36:13 Because that fight was playing out in a very interesting direction, 'cause Aspinall was having a really hard time touching that guy.

Speaker 1:36:19 He was bleeding.

Joe Rogan 1:36:20 He was getting-

Speaker 1:36:20 Getting touched

Joe Rogan 1:36:20 ... busted up.

Speaker 1:36:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36:21 He was getting touched up a lot. Ciryl's jab is legit.

Speaker 1:36:25 And that's what I was most excited for. I wanted to see Tom have to come back, lose a round and come back.

Joe Rogan 1:36:29 Yes.

Speaker 1:36:29 I've never seen him f- I've, obviously I've seen him fight, but I've never seen him in a real fight where you, you have to fight your way back into it or-

Joe Rogan 1:36:35 How many times has he even been in the second round?

Speaker 1:36:37 Twice maybe. I-

Joe Rogan 1:36:38 Yeah

Speaker 1:36:38 ... something crazy like that.

Joe Rogan 1:36:39 Nuts.

Speaker 1:36:39 And that's why the fan base kind of blew me away. I was like, these guys are so high on Aspinall right now. Like, for a, a few months everybody was talking about Aspinall, how good he is. I've never seen it. Not that he's not. He, he might, I mean, he has to be good to be where he's at.

Joe Rogan 1:36:52 Yeah.

Speaker 1:36:53 But I haven't seen it.

Joe Rogan 1:36:54 Well, my thought was the real problem that Aspinall's gonna present is in the grappling. He's a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt. He's a big fucker. He's fast. He's got a power double. I mean, he explodes, but when he's standing there and trying to stand with Ciryl Gane, this is the first time that he was ever in front of a guy who was agile and quick and very technical.

Speaker 1:37:16 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:37:16 Where Ciryl Gane was doing a lot of sneaky shit. One thing he does is he keeps his hand low and then he pops that jab out, so you don't know where it's coming from.

Speaker 1:37:23 Up jab.

Joe Rogan 1:37:23 He does a lot of weird shit with his front leg, too.

Speaker 1:37:26 He is, he is pretty quick for his size.

Joe Rogan 1:37:27 Real quick.

Speaker 1:37:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37:28 Real quick. And he's a great athlete.

Speaker 1:37:29 And good mobility, good hips.

Joe Rogan 1:37:30 Yeah, man. Ciryl's a great athlete. Like, it's not just that. I've seen him dunk basketballs and shit.

Speaker 1:37:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37:36 Like, he's, he can move.

Speaker 1:37:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:37:37 But it's just the fluidity of his striking is so efficient. Like, that's his world. If you just wanna strike with him.

Speaker 1:37:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37:45 I mean, Jon Jones is so smart. Jon's like, "Fuck all this." Boom.

Speaker 1:37:48 Guillotine.

Joe Rogan 1:37:49 Even Francis. Francis, well, he had a blown out knee in that fight, but Francis just, like, took him down every round and beat him up.

Speaker 1:37:57 Yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 1:37:58 But that's a different Ciryl. That's a Ciryl that wasn't concentrating enough on his grappling and probably never thought that Francis could employ that tactic.

Speaker 1:38:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:38:06 And then really worked with a lot of wrestlers and tried to evolve his game and, you know.

Speaker 1:38:12 I think Francis is on that Nate Jake card as well, I believe. You know?

Joe Rogan 1:38:16 Right, right. He's fighting Filip Linhart.

Speaker 1:38:18 Yeah, he's a ATT guy.

Joe Rogan 1:38:19 Yeah.

Speaker 1:38:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:38:20 How good is he?

Speaker 1:38:21 I've never really watched him train that much. I know he made it to the UFC for a, a stint.

Joe Rogan 1:38:25 Yeah.

Speaker 1:38:25 Then he maybe went PFL. I'm not sure how good he is.

Joe Rogan 1:38:28 Yeah. It's un-

Speaker 1:38:29 I've seen him at the gym, but I've never watched him train

Joe Rogan 1:38:31 ... fortunate that there's not another big name for him to fight. Like, I was hoping they could get a big name

Speaker 1:38:37 Bob Sapp.

Joe Rogan 1:38:38 [laughs]

Speaker 1:38:39 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:38:40 I mean, who would be the big name? Like who's-

Speaker 1:38:42 At heavyweight?

Joe Rogan 1:38:43 Yeah, at heavyweight, that's still talented. No one.

Speaker 1:38:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:38:48 Heavyweight is the most shallow division in the sport, period.

Speaker 1:38:52 Cain's out of jail. Get him in shape.

Joe Rogan 1:38:53 Nah.

Speaker 1:38:53 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:38:54 Well, Cain's got crazy back surgeries, and knee surgery, and shoulder surgery.

Speaker 1:38:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:38:58 Cain, Cain was like too tough for his own body.

Speaker 1:39:00 And all the years of wrestling, man.

Joe Rogan 1:39:01 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:39:03 Wear and tear.

Joe Rogan 1:39:03 Yeah.

Speaker 1:39:03 Wear and tear.

Joe Rogan 1:39:04 Well, also just never giving his body a break, just constantly grinding and pushing, and that's why he was so good. It's like he just could endure the pain.

Speaker 1:39:11 I think in his prime, the best. I think he was the best heavyweight.

Joe Rogan 1:39:13 Yeah. Well, he was certainly in the argument. In my mind, it's him and Fedor. But honorable mention always I give to Fabrício Werdum.

Speaker 1:39:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:39:21 'Cause Fabrício Werdum, people wanna think about losses, think about peak performances. Fabrício Werdum tapped everybody. He tapped all the legends.

Speaker 1:39:31 Great triangle tap, man.

Joe Rogan 1:39:32 He tapped Minotauro, he tapped Fedor, and he tapped Cain. Like just that, just that alone, he tapped all the legends.

Speaker 1:39:39 I don't know why his name didn't, like when I was thinking about heavyweights, why his name doesn't even come in.

Joe Rogan 1:39:42 I always wanna give him respect.

Speaker 1:39:44 For sure.

Joe Rogan 1:39:44 I always put it out there because the same way I do with B.J. Penn 'cause people for- they only wanna think about B.J. Penn maybe when he fought Frankie Edgar or when he fought Yair Rodríguez.

Speaker 1:39:55 Yair.

Joe Rogan 1:39:55 Go back to B.J. Penn when he fought Sean Sherk. Go back to B.J. Penn when he fought Diego Sanchez. That B.J. Penn was a motherfucker.

Speaker 1:40:02 Yeah. Joe Stevenson.

Joe Rogan 1:40:03 Yes, Joe Daddy Stevenson. You gotta think about the guys when they're in their prime, when they're at, when they're redlining for X amount of years at peak performance. When you're talking about like all-time greats, I get it. All-time greats, you gotta think about guys like Jon Jones and Khabib.

Speaker 1:40:21 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40:21 Who never lost. They stayed flawless their entire career. You're right. But for peak performance, when they're at their best, how good were they? I put primetime B.J. Penn at 155 against almost anybody.

Speaker 1:40:35 Yeah. You're right, man. You're right.

Joe Rogan 1:40:36 Bro, he was so good, and his jiu-jitsu was so good.

Speaker 1:40:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40:39 And he can knock you out, and he was an animal. Just an a- when he was training with Marat Marinovich, when he went over there and was like really learning how to get in insane shape, and he would come there with that big ass-

Speaker 1:40:50 Carrying rocks underwater and stuff

Joe Rogan 1:40:51 ... all that shit.

Speaker 1:40:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40:52 Well, I think the carrying rocks was him. Marinovich had him doing a lot of like crazy plyometric stuff. And the, Marinovich's strategy was, "You already know how to fight. Fuck all this fighting."

Speaker 1:41:02 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:41:03 "You know how to fight. What we're gonna do is just give you the most insane gas tank so your fight training is like secondary. What's really important is just having the most spectacular gas tank so you never get tired."

Speaker 1:41:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:16 But he hated those camps, man. He hated it. And he only did it a few times.

Speaker 1:41:19 Even in the peak of his shape, he was still a little soft. He was never shredded like-

Joe Rogan 1:41:23 He was pretty shredded when he fought Joe Stevenson.

Speaker 1:41:25 Was he?

Joe Rogan 1:41:25 Look at... Yeah. He had a six-pack. He looked good. I mean, he was, it was different, but at 55 it was different.

Speaker 1:41:30 And everybody's body type's different, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:41:32 Well, at 70 he was never really a 170, you know? He was never, I mean, he was much smaller than you.

Speaker 1:41:37 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:37 He's a, he was never really a 170. He was just so tough that he went up to 170 and beat a primetime Matt Hughes.

Speaker 1:41:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:44 I mean-

Speaker 1:41:44 He, he stuck around longer than he should have.

Joe Rogan 1:41:46 He definitely did. He def-

Speaker 1:41:47 'Cause then that's what we re-

Joe Rogan 1:41:48 He definitely fought-

Speaker 1:41:49 ... remember

Joe Rogan 1:41:49 ... without training well sometimes. And that's the thing people remember.

Speaker 1:41:53 Yes. I hate that, though.

Joe Rogan 1:41:54 They remember that one fight we fought on his tippy toes. Remember that fight?

Speaker 1:41:56 Yep, yep, yep.

Joe Rogan 1:41:57 Like crazy. Weird shit.

Speaker 1:41:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:41:59 But you gotta think about him in his prime. That's what I always say. Don't look at e- like Fabrício Werdum, don't look at all the fights. Look at the fights when he was in his prime and-

Speaker 1:42:09 When he was putting it all together

Joe Rogan 1:42:10 ... Fabrício was a nightmare. He was a nightmare.

Speaker 1:42:12 Like when they hit their stride.

Joe Rogan 1:42:14 Yeah.

Speaker 1:42:14 And that's, that's what I was scared about staying around the, fighting too long. Like I retired at 36. I'm like-

Joe Rogan 1:42:19 Perfect

Speaker 1:42:20 ... how much more athletic am I gonna get? How much faster am I gonna get? How much d-

Joe Rogan 1:42:24 Right

Speaker 1:42:24 ... you know, power is the last thing to go, but durability, speed, reaction time, everything that I need, like, and if I'm not right in line for a title shot or r- knocking on the door of it, like, what am I doing?

Joe Rogan 1:42:34 Right.

Speaker 1:42:35 I'm fighting just to fight for a paycheck?

Joe Rogan 1:42:36 You know what's really crazy? That's when-

Speaker 1:42:39 I had to look myself in the mirror, you know, like, "Okay, this is it. I'm, I'm gonna-"

Joe Rogan 1:42:43 You did the right thing.

Speaker 1:42:44 Be healthy.

Joe Rogan 1:42:45 What's crazy is-

Speaker 1:42:45 Leave on my faculties, for the most part

Joe Rogan 1:42:46 ... the age that you retired was the age that Yoel Romero entered into the UFC.

Speaker 1:42:50 Yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:42:53 [laughs]

Speaker 1:42:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:42:54 Isn't that nuts?

Speaker 1:42:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:42:55 It really is crazy if you think about it 'cause that's, that's really what h- and there's a few outliers out there in the sport. Like in boxing, Usyk is the great outlier.

Speaker 1:43:03 Terrence-

Joe Rogan 1:43:03 Terrence Crawford is another great outlier.

Speaker 1:43:05 Dude, what about Usyk and Rico?

Joe Rogan 1:43:07 Crazy. Crazy.

Speaker 1:43:08 Rico's a super nice guy. I love Rico, man. Super nice guy.

Joe Rogan 1:43:11 He's a nice guy, but without leg kicks, the fact that he's gonna just box and he's gonna box maybe the best technical heavyweight that's ever lived, I don't know, man. I mean-

Speaker 1:43:22 I learned, I learned my lesson, dude. I bet $5,000 on Fury. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:43:25 Did you?

Speaker 1:43:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:43:27 The second fight?

Speaker 1:43:27 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:43:28 Interesting.

Speaker 1:43:29 I just-

Joe Rogan 1:43:29 If anybody could beat him, it's Tyson Fury. If anybody can beat Usyk, it's Tyson Fury. 'Cause Tyson Fury was beating him in the first fight, he just got clipped. He got clipped in the, I think it was the ninth. He got really badly hurt.

Speaker 1:43:42 I don't remember what round.

Joe Rogan 1:43:42 I don't remember what round it was, but he got really badly hurt and dropped. But Usyk is just so slick.

Speaker 1:43:48 Yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 1:43:49 His footwork, his movement. He's a... And the fact that he's essentially a blown up cruiserweight and he's beating all these giant heavyweights like Dubois. Like Daniel Dubois is terrifying. What he did to Joshua-

Speaker 1:44:00 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:44:00 ... just charged forward and just put fucking leather on his face.

Speaker 1:44:05 Yeah. Rico's a real heavyweight, but he's not a bo- pure boxer.

Joe Rogan 1:44:08 No. I mean, he can hit hard. I mean, there's that. He-

Speaker 1:44:12 But he's such a great kicker. You're taking a weapon away.

Joe Rogan 1:44:14 You're taking a giant weapon away.

Speaker 1:44:14 It's interesting. It's a spectacle. I'm watching for sure, but I just-

Joe Rogan 1:44:17 Yeah. I'm sure he's boxed with a lot of like really elite boxers in the gym. I mean, but it's, it's the payday.

Speaker 1:44:24 Yeah, over the years for sure. For sure, he has.

Joe Rogan 1:44:26 The payday's probably bananas.

Speaker 1:44:27 I'm sure. It has to be.

Joe Rogan 1:44:27 And they're fighting in Giza.

Speaker 1:44:29 In front of the pyramids?

Joe Rogan 1:44:30 Nuts.

Speaker 1:44:31 Crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:44:31 Who's putting this together?

Speaker 1:44:33 No clue.

Joe Rogan 1:44:33 Who put that together?

Speaker 1:44:33 I have no idea.

Joe Rogan 1:44:35 Yeah. Aliens.

Speaker 1:44:36 Aliens.

Joe Rogan 1:44:36 That's where they're gonna land.

Speaker 1:44:38 Like they need to do a-

Joe Rogan 1:44:39 Who's the promoter of this?

Speaker 1:44:39 ... a Coliseum fight, MMA or-

Joe Rogan 1:44:41 Right

Speaker 1:44:41 ... or boxing, where they set it up either in the Coliseum or right in front, you know? That would be crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:44:45 Well, they were talking about doing that with Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg.

Speaker 1:44:50 They were talking about that fight in the Coliseum.

Joe Rogan 1:44:51 [laughs] A real fight.

Speaker 1:44:52 I know, that's so crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:44:54 Dude, [laughs] that would be so crazy to have those guys be the first fight in the Coliseum.

Speaker 1:44:58 Do that one at Meta headquarters or something.

Joe Rogan 1:45:00 [laughs]

Speaker 1:45:00 Don't do that at the Coliseum. Don't disrespect the-

Joe Rogan 1:45:02 [laughs] Don't disrespect the Coliseum.

Speaker 1:45:05 Don't disrespect... No, no.

Joe Rogan 1:45:05 I know, that's silly. So where, who's live at the Pyramids of Giza? WBC world heavyweight championship, DAZN. But like I wonder who the promoter is.

Speaker 1:45:15 Who's the promoter? Sella. WBC, I don't-

Joe Rogan 1:45:19 Is that their faces? That's so ridiculous. [laughs] Look at their fucking, with their circular golden gloves on. Glory in Giza.

Speaker 1:45:28 It's gonna be interesting, man.

Joe Rogan 1:45:29 [laughs]

Speaker 1:45:29 I'm excited about it.

Joe Rogan 1:45:30 I wonder who's gonna buy that.

Speaker 1:45:33 Me.

Joe Rogan 1:45:33 How much is that gonna cost? I'm gonna buy it. But I mean, I mean, how many people are gonna buy that? You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:45:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:45:39 Like, I'm gonna buy it because it's, I love Rico. I've had Rico on the show. I mean, I think he's the greatest heavyweight kickboxer of all time.

Speaker 1:45:45 For sure. I, I feel like the way combat sports has kinda intertwined all different stuff, boxing, MMA, how big mixed martial arts is now, you're gonna get a lot of cross, crossover. Before, you'd get a lot of hardcore boxing fans buying this pay-per-view, but now you're kinda gonna get a little bit of everything.

Joe Rogan 1:46:00 Perhaps.

Speaker 1:46:00 Kickboxing, MMA, boxing fans.

Joe Rogan 1:46:02 But Glory has such a small audience, unfortunately. And this was the a- you know, this is the argument that Dana has said to me w- about-

Speaker 1:46:10 'Cause I-

Joe Rogan 1:46:10 ... kickboxing in America, that they tried with Glory. I just don't think they got the right promotion. I think if the UFC would've gotten behind it-

Speaker 1:46:16 I mean, it's nonstop action. It's highlights the whole time.

Joe Rogan 1:46:19 I know.

Speaker 1:46:19 Why wouldn't you-

Joe Rogan 1:46:19 That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1:46:20 Why wouldn't you?

Joe Rogan 1:46:21 I feel like if the UFC got behind kickboxing in America, it could be gigantic, especially kickboxing with MMA gloves. Like if that Gazaliev guy was-

Speaker 1:46:30 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:46:30 ... fighting in the octagon, you know how fucking gigantic that would be?

Speaker 1:46:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:46:34 Or Yuki Yoza. There's another guy, m- mas- uh, Masata Inouri. There's a bunch of guys. There's a bunch of guys that are, like, really elite that are fighting.

Speaker 1:46:45 Yeah. Oh, oh, a bunch, man.

Joe Rogan 1:46:47 Yeah.

Speaker 1:46:47 A lot. A lot, lot.

Joe Rogan 1:46:51 Yeah, Masaki Nouri. Um, uh, Usyk open to fighting Jon Jones in crossover MMA fight. What?

Speaker 1:46:59 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:46:59 Wait. Okay, now you got me interested.

Speaker 1:47:02 Dude.

Joe Rogan 1:47:03 If the UFC comes up with the cheddar.

Speaker 1:47:06 He better start wrestling now.

Joe Rogan 1:47:08 How much would you have to pay him? Yeah, he better start wrestling now.

Speaker 1:47:09 Wrestling right now.

Joe Rogan 1:47:10 Is that real? Did he say that? Rico is first. Second is whoever wins between Wardley and Dubois. And the third fight is my friend Greedy Belly Tyson Fury. So he's not gonna... A, a rematch with Dubois is a tough sell. He just starched him. The Tyson Fury fight is the big fight. 'Cause Tyson Fury is the only guy that, in my eyes, makes sense. Says a fight with Jake Paul in MMA at this stage is not being considered, but we're always open to creative and interesting collaborations in the future. If we were talking about crossover fights, a very interesting matchup could be against Jon Jones in the United States. Whoa.

Speaker 1:47:47 I don't know what Jon's gonna do, man, with all the stuff going on with the UFC. He might be done. He mi- who knows?

Joe Rogan 1:47:52 He doesn't wanna be done. Um, I know he got stem cells on his hip. Um, I know 'cause I helped him get it. He got it over at, uh, he's talked about it. I wouldn't have talked about it, but he talked about it.

Speaker 1:48:03 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:48:03 Um, he got it at Waste Well. And so, uh, he, he's feeling a lot better. He does have arthritis in his hip. It bothers him, but it doesn't bother him enough where he can't fight. And, you know, he's the greatest of all time, period.

Speaker 1:48:15 I did stem cells and PRP in my hip. I didn't notice anything from that.

Joe Rogan 1:48:19 Well, it really depends on where you're getting the stem cells, what technology they're using. There's a bunch of different kinds of stem cells.

Speaker 1:48:26 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:48:26 Talk to Brigham about that. He can explain it to you.

Speaker 1:48:28 I got maybe one-

Joe Rogan 1:48:29 But you had a labrum tear, right? It was pretty significant.

Speaker 1:48:31 Yeah, and I had to get the head of my femur reshaped.

Joe Rogan 1:48:33 Mm.

Speaker 1:48:33 Like a resurfacing. It was kinda egg shaped and it need, need to be rounded, so I tore everything off the inside of my hip.

Joe Rogan 1:48:39 So how do they do that?

Speaker 1:48:41 They take your leg out of socket.

Joe Rogan 1:48:43 [gasps]

Speaker 1:48:43 They f- they m- shave the top rounded, and then they micro f- they put, like, a bunch of small holes in it to where it cracks, and then stem cells leak out of your body to create a new surface out of your bone.

Joe Rogan 1:48:55 Whoa. How long did that take to recover for?

Speaker 1:48:56 Eight... I couldn't put pressure on it for eight weeks.

Joe Rogan 1:48:58 Wow.

Speaker 1:48:59 Yeah. 'Cause it's like-

Joe Rogan 1:49:00 So you're just walking around on one leg-

Speaker 1:49:02 Crut- crut- crutches

Joe Rogan 1:49:03 ... for two months solid?

Speaker 1:49:03 Crutches. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49:04 And then once you start walking again, how weird was it?

Speaker 1:49:08 Very weird, 'cause I had to sleep in, like, a, a motion machine where my leg wouldn't stop moving at night.

Joe Rogan 1:49:13 Oh my God.

Speaker 1:49:14 'Cause your hip capsule is, like, tricky. If you, if it heals up too tight, then your leg won't have any m- any range of motion at all. So while it's healing, you need to be in perpetual motion, I guess.

Joe Rogan 1:49:23 That's crazy.

Speaker 1:49:24 And every week, they would send a new code for my wife to type in the machine, and it would be a little bit different angle.

Joe Rogan 1:49:29 Whoa.

Speaker 1:49:30 Yeah. So my, my-

Joe Rogan 1:49:31 What a nightmare

Speaker 1:49:32 ... for those eight weeks, I was sleeping in this metal brace that moved my leg all night.

Joe Rogan 1:49:36 How did you sleep?

Speaker 1:49:37 It was horrible, 'cause it went up to, like, your, your junk-

Joe Rogan 1:49:40 [laughs]

Speaker 1:49:40 ... in, inside your leg and the outside of your leg, so it's like you had a wedgie by this machine, and your leg's just motion all night.

Joe Rogan 1:49:46 Oh my God.

Speaker 1:49:47 Yeah. It sucked, man.

Joe Rogan 1:49:48 That's terrifying.

Speaker 1:49:50 But it healed-

Joe Rogan 1:49:50 That sounds bad

Speaker 1:49:50 ... I'm fine now. It healed up good.

Joe Rogan 1:49:52 That's crazy that it worked.

Speaker 1:49:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49:54 Wow.

Speaker 1:49:55 Resurfacing.

Joe Rogan 1:49:56 Whoa.

Speaker 1:49:57 The guy actually who did it in Vail, Colorado invented the surgery. GSP's had hip surgery there.

Joe Rogan 1:50:03 Really?

Speaker 1:50:04 Yeah. He invented this surgery.

Joe Rogan 1:50:06 And GSP had to do the same bullshit?

Speaker 1:50:07 I don't know if he had exactly what I had, but he, he had surgery there on his hip.

Joe Rogan 1:50:11 God, that sounds like two months of no sleeping. How'd you sleep? Did you get used to it?

Speaker 1:50:16 Well, the first week, w- pain medicine and stuff, you're on all that stuff. It was after, like, when I stopped taking all that.

Joe Rogan 1:50:22 Pain medicine must've been fun. [singing] Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

Speaker 1:50:28 Triple Z, dude. I was having dreams and-

Joe Rogan 1:50:30 [laughs]

Speaker 1:50:30 ... getting the best sleep of my life.

Joe Rogan 1:50:32 Yeah, that's a time where it makes sense to take that shit. Like, you're in a fucking crazy brace, let's party.

Speaker 1:50:37 Yeah, for sure.

Joe Rogan 1:50:38 Let's watch Netflix and just not give a shit about my leg moving on a fucking-

Speaker 1:50:41 Yeah, sleeping in this machine

Joe Rogan 1:50:42 ... hamster wheel.

Speaker 1:50:43 For real.

Joe Rogan 1:50:44 Whatever the hell's happening to my leg.

Speaker 1:50:45 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:50:46 I was on one of those when I got-

Speaker 1:50:47 I alw-

Joe Rogan 1:50:47 ... my knee reconstructed.

Speaker 1:50:48 You had a bunch of knee surgeries.

Joe Rogan 1:50:49 Yeah, but my left knee, uh, they put, I had, um, a-Patellar tendon graft, and they put me on one of them things where it does this, like when I was in the hospital-

Speaker 1:50:58 So that's, that's how it's done

Joe Rogan 1:50:59 ... and I had a morphine drip. So you could press the button to get more morphine. I was like boink, boink, boink, boink.

Speaker 1:51:03 Dude, I-

Joe Rogan 1:51:04 Just lying there. Ooh.

Speaker 1:51:05 I had the same thing on my hip.

Joe Rogan 1:51:07 [laughs]

Speaker 1:51:08 They, they put a epidural and then they had a nerve block through my stomach, so I was like completely paralyzed from the waist down.

Joe Rogan 1:51:13 Wow.

Speaker 1:51:13 But I had the button thing. I don't think it was working anymore 'cause I [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:51:17 [laughs]

Speaker 1:51:18 I, I revved it up. It was-

Joe Rogan 1:51:20 You red lined it

Speaker 1:51:21 ... it was shooting blanks, man.

Joe Rogan 1:51:22 That's hilarious. It is weird though to see your like knee constantly moving forward, but I only had to do it like a couple of nights. I can't imagine.

Speaker 1:51:29 No, I did it for weeks.

Joe Rogan 1:51:30 I can't imagine. That must have been so hard to sleep, man. Just-

Speaker 1:51:35 Yeah, the motion wasn't so bad 'cause it's kinda slow.

Joe Rogan 1:51:38 Oh, okay.

Speaker 1:51:39 It was the metal in my groin.

Joe Rogan 1:51:40 Oh, yeah. It probably-

Speaker 1:51:42 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:51:43 ... like rubbed it raw and shit.

Speaker 1:51:44 [laughs] Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:51:44 Oh, God.

Speaker 1:51:46 Yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 1:51:46 Fuck, man.

Speaker 1:51:47 But I, like I said, I was on the pain medicine, so.

Joe Rogan 1:51:49 It's crazy that it all worked though.

Speaker 1:51:51 Yeah, dude.

Joe Rogan 1:51:51 Shout out to that doctor.

Speaker 1:51:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:51:52 Shout out to all these doctors. I say that all the time, like both my knees would be fucking completely useless if it wasn't for amazing doctors.

Speaker 1:51:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:51:59 Shout out to these guys-

Speaker 1:52:00 I was just talking to-

Joe Rogan 1:52:00 ... figuring shit out

Speaker 1:52:01 ... uh, I worked with Paul Felder at that Vegas show, and uh, he just had a hip replacement.

Joe Rogan 1:52:06 Yeah, he had the real deal, right? Like-

Speaker 1:52:08 But it's so... Yeah, no, he had a replacement, replacement.

Joe Rogan 1:52:10 Why did he have to do that versus what you did?

Speaker 1:52:13 I'm not sure exactly. It's something to do with the spacing, I think-

Joe Rogan 1:52:16 Oh

Speaker 1:52:16 ... inside your hip, how much spacing you have. 'Cause my spacing was good. I'm, I wasn't a candidate for a replacement.

Joe Rogan 1:52:21 Well, Paul went full nutty after he stopped fighting and started doing Ironmans.

Speaker 1:52:26 Yeah, dude, he was telling me he travels with a bicycle. He does like-

Joe Rogan 1:52:29 Still does that?

Speaker 1:52:29 ... cycling for five hours, like in a hotel room, like crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:52:33 Okay. That's not good.

Speaker 1:52:34 Crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:52:34 That's not healthy.

Speaker 1:52:34 Crazy, man.

Joe Rogan 1:52:35 That's not healthy.

Speaker 1:52:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:52:36 Why you doing that, Paul?

Speaker 1:52:37 Five hours, he told me.

Joe Rogan 1:52:39 Well, the same kinda drive that made him a great MMA fighter made him wanna like be the best Ironman dude in the world.

Speaker 1:52:44 You need something like that, man. [coughs]

Joe Rogan 1:52:46 Way before the surgery, this was a couple years ago, when he first got- Mm ... diagnosed I guess with some injury. Yeah. "So range of motion in my right hip. Reached out to Heather and Dr. D from the UFC to help with an MRI. Long story short, I have the hips of an 80-year-old man. No soft tissue left. Grinding bone on bone." Oye. The problem is, once they put a artificial joint in you, you have that artificial joint forever.

Speaker 1:53:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:53:11 They're never, it's never going back.

Speaker 1:53:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:53:13 And as biologics get better and stem cells get better, they're, they're better and better at re-healing or healing that, that actual tissue. And if you could just hang in there, you know, this is the kind of the conversation that I had with John because if you could just hang in there, they're so close. They're injecting stuff into discs now and making the discs larger.

Speaker 1:53:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:53:35 So like people with back problems where the doctor's like, "Look, we gotta take some of your disc out." No, hang in there. Hang... And also, look into other therapies. Decompression. There's a lot of different things that you could do that can create space where your, you know, disc is pushing against your nerves. You can alleviate a lot of that.

Speaker 1:53:52 Surgery is the absolute last step.

Joe Rogan 1:53:54 Especially with your back.

Speaker 1:53:55 Absolute last step.

Joe Rogan 1:53:56 Especially with your back. Look, if you have a blown ACL-

Speaker 1:53:57 Of course, they're gonna cut you up. They'll do it anytime.

Joe Rogan 1:54:00 Yes.

Speaker 1:54:00 You know? It's good business.

Joe Rogan 1:54:01 Right.

Speaker 1:54:01 Cut you open, then the-

Joe Rogan 1:54:03 That's the problem

Speaker 1:54:03 ... the medicines, the s-

Joe Rogan 1:54:04 Yeah

Speaker 1:54:04 ... the hardware, everything. It's a, it's a, it's a racket.

Joe Rogan 1:54:07 That's the problem.

Speaker 1:54:07 That's the last step.

Joe Rogan 1:54:08 That's the problem. When, when y- you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Speaker 1:54:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:54:12 And, you know, and when doctors get paid for doing surgery, they wanna do surgery, 'cause that's where they make their living.

Speaker 1:54:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:54:19 And it's uh, it's a real problem with stuff like the back, because I don't know anybody that's had a back surgery and been better.

Speaker 1:54:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:54:27 You know? And I-

Speaker 1:54:27 The only big one I could think of, I remember Nate Quarry was a big advocate for some company. Remember he had a b- bad-

Joe Rogan 1:54:32 He had a artificial spacer, yeah. He had artificial discs put in his back way back in the day.

Speaker 1:54:39 Yeah, he's the guy I think about back surgery.

Joe Rogan 1:54:40 But he also like got, was in intense pain because of that, and I think it wound up like becoming a problem later on. Like I know guys that initially had some relief because of back surgery, and then it started getting way worse after that-

Speaker 1:54:55 It al- dude, that's the same st-

Joe Rogan 1:54:56 ... and they would have to get follow-ups

Speaker 1:54:57 ... always the same story. Like-

Joe Rogan 1:54:58 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:54:59 ... same thing with necks. Like you lose strength. It's always bothering you-

Joe Rogan 1:55:03 Yes

Speaker 1:55:03 ... for the rest of your life. Like Mike Brown has a fusion, where they went in through the front.

Joe Rogan 1:55:06 Fusions are rough.

Speaker 1:55:07 My buddy Alan Jouban had a th- neck surgery where they... Kayla Harrison just had one. Like once you have that, something-

Joe Rogan 1:55:13 What did Kayla have done?

Speaker 1:55:14 I don't know exactly. I don't wanna say the wrong thing.

Joe Rogan 1:55:15 I don't think she's telling anybody.

Speaker 1:55:16 I know that, I'm pretty sure they went in through the front.

Joe Rogan 1:55:18 Right, but I don't think she's telling anybody what exactly happened, 'cause look, Aljamain had a disc replaced, and he came back and beat Petr Yan in the rematch and looked fucking great, and fought really well with that neck issue.

Speaker 1:55:29 And you don't s- hear him complaining about it.

Joe Rogan 1:55:31 No. I mean, he said it's great.

Speaker 1:55:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:55:33 I think the, that the new artificial discs that they're putting in the necks, a lot of them, it works out really well. I know quite a few people that have had those.

Speaker 1:55:42 I've been fortunate, man. I haven't had any neck-

Joe Rogan 1:55:44 She had to repair, repair herniated discs in her neck. Right. See, the thing is, what they usually do is just take some of the, the disc out, and then you have less disc. So it's not bulging anymore.

Speaker 1:55:58 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:55:58 But you have less disc now, so now you have more degenerative disc issues and I just think there's other options, and one of the options is decompression. I don't know if anybody ran that by her, but I have a fucking n- neck harness-

Speaker 1:56:13 Hang

Joe Rogan 1:56:13 ... that I, I, I, it's attached to a chin-up bar, and I put it around my neck, it straps under my chin, and I put my weight on it. I just like stretch my neck out.

Speaker 1:56:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:56:21 It works. You know? Re- relieving, like I hear it pop, like-

Speaker 1:56:25 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:56:25 ... pop, pop. It says they replaced the disc. Oh. She had it replaced. Okay. So, so she got that thing that Aljamain got done. Yeah. How is she gonna fight that quickly? Oye.

Speaker 1:56:38 Yep, yep.

Joe Rogan 1:56:38 Look at that. Oye, yoy, yoy, yoy.

Speaker 1:56:41 I wonder what her turnaround time is. I mean, International Fight Week maybe her, her and Amanda?

Joe Rogan 1:56:46 Well, she's fighting, isn't, she was supposed to be fighting in the White Hart, I'm sure.

Speaker 1:56:49 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:56:50 But they decided-

Speaker 1:56:50 Her and Amanda was supposed to

Joe Rogan 1:56:51 ... they decided not to do that. Yeah.

Speaker 1:56:54 So maybe this summer?

Joe Rogan 1:56:55 Maybe.

Speaker 1:56:56 'Cause it's gonna be, I mean, that's a big fight, her and Amanda.

Joe Rogan 1:56:58 It's a big fight. But I mean-There's a possibility that you do something like that and you're never the same again, so she might not ever-

Speaker 1:57:05 Another surgery, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:57:05 Yeah. It's like you're, whenever you're dealing with your spine, it's very tricky.

Speaker 1:57:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:57:11 You know? It's just one of those things. It's like, rrr.

Speaker 1:57:14 Shoulders, knees.

Joe Rogan 1:57:16 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:57:16 There's some things, man, you don't wanna injure.

Joe Rogan 1:57:18 I don't think anybody's-

Speaker 1:57:19 You don't wanna touch, man

Joe Rogan 1:57:19 ... ever come back from a knee replacement and fought MMA. I've never heard of that.

Speaker 1:57:23 You-

Joe Rogan 1:57:23 I've heard of disc replacements, I've heard of a lot of knee surgeries, guys come back.

Speaker 1:57:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:57:27 But Desis Bokos was the worst. Remember that?

Speaker 1:57:30 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:57:30 He fought Khalil, and Khalil side kicked his knee sideways.

Speaker 1:57:33 And he hyperextended it?

Joe Rogan 1:57:34 Oh.

Speaker 1:57:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:57:34 It went sideways.

Speaker 1:57:36 John does that knee stomp thing, too.

Joe Rogan 1:57:38 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:57:38 I don't, I don't know how I feel about that, man.

Joe Rogan 1:57:40 Well, Ian Garry did it to Shavkat.

Speaker 1:57:42 I don't know how I feel about it.

Joe Rogan 1:57:43 Fucked Shavkat's knee up. I know, it's kinda fucked because look, yes, it's effective-

Speaker 1:57:48 It's legal

Joe Rogan 1:57:48 ... but so is eye pokes.

Speaker 1:57:49 I feel like it's, that's what I was about to say.

Joe Rogan 1:57:50 Right.

Speaker 1:57:50 I feel like it's kinda dirty. Like it-

Joe Rogan 1:57:52 It-

Speaker 1:57:52 Legalize eye pokes

Joe Rogan 1:57:53 ... it is dirty. I mean, so are nut shots. Like, nut shots are effective, too. Are we gonna allow those? No. I mean, why are we allowing someone to do a technique that you can't-

Speaker 1:58:01 We do have 12 to six elbows now, so that's, at least we're getting somewhere.

Joe Rogan 1:58:03 Yeah. I like that.

Speaker 1:58:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:58:05 But I'd rather have knees to a grounded opponent than kicking the knee sideways.

Speaker 1:58:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:58:10 It just seems like it takes a year-

Speaker 1:58:12 But-

Joe Rogan 1:58:12 ... off of your career-

Speaker 1:58:13 But s-

Joe Rogan 1:58:14 ... at least

Speaker 1:58:14 ... so can a knee bar, so can a arm bar. Like s-

Joe Rogan 1:58:17 Yeah, but you can tap.

Speaker 1:58:18 True. True, true, true.