JRE MMA Show #25 with Michael Chandler

1. 0:00 – 1:24

   Welcome + Rogan’s pitch: Chandler vs UFC’s best

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (tongue clicking) Four, three, two... (knocks on table) Boom. And we're live.

   2. MCMichael Chandler0:08

      Oh.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      How are you, brother?

   4. MCMichael Chandler0:09

      I'm great, man. Living the dream.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      Great to have you in here, man.

   6. MCMichael Chandler0:11

      Thank you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      I've been, uh-

   8. MCMichael Chandler0:12

      Great to be here.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Yeah. I mean, I've been wantin' to have you on for a long time, man. I've been followin' your career forever, and I've been a big fan forever. So, it's nice to be able to sit down with you.

   10. MCMichael Chandler0:21

       I know, man. This is awesome. This is, uh... I've been a big fan of the, of yours obviously, and the podcast for a long time. So to be in here, get the tour, check out your awesome man warehouse-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       This is all just-

   12. MCMichael Chandler0:30

       ... I think every man's dream.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       ... this is an elaborate plot to convince me to get you to join the UFC.

   14. MCMichael Chandler0:34

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       That's all this is.

   16. MCMichael Chandler0:35

       Oh, my gosh. Right away?

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       (laughs)

   18. MCMichael Chandler0:37

       Right away? We just... We wanna go straight to it? Okay. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       Well, I just... I mean, I-

   20. MCMichael Chandler0:41

       All of this could be yours. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       Look, I appreciate Rory MacDonald going over there.

   22. MCMichael Chandler0:45

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       I know he did what he had to do, but even that one bums me out, you know?

   24. MCMichael Chandler0:48

       Yeah, right. Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       Uh, I just, I wanted to, I wanna see you fight the best guys in the world.

   26. MCMichael Chandler0:53

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:53

       And I think, uh, right now over in Bellator, you have very good competition, but I don't think you have the best guys. And I think you're one of the best guys.

   28. MCMichael Chandler1:01

       I think, uh, I think I wake up every morning and think I'm the, I'm the best guy in the world too. You know?

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       I think that's the way to think if you wanna be the best guy in the world.

   30. MCMichael Chandler1:07

       So, uh, (laughs) that is, that's the way I've been thinking for a while. Uh, not always in my career. I mean, I've had some losses where I've, you know, had temporary lapses of confidence and whatnot, whether it be my training or my abilities in myself, or my thoughts and my abilities and myself. But, I mean, where I'm at right now, firing on all cylinders, I feel like everything's working, so...

2. 1:24 – 6:32

   Confidence, setbacks, and what three straight losses taught Chandler

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:24

      Do you feel like those moments where you haven't been at your best, where you've had lapses, and then you felt those dark moments, do those motivate you to never let that happen again?

   2. MCMichael Chandler1:36

      Yeah. I mean, I think... I actually went through, for those, the people that don't know, I went through three losses in a row. I mean, that's, that's rough. I mean, the first loss to Eddie Alvarez was a tough split decision. A lot of people thought I won. Um, so you kinda get this, you know, "Oh, woe is me" attitude, which I, I never had really had before. And all of a sudden it's like, "Why did this happen to me?" Then had a back injury and then fought Will Brooks when I shouldn't have on one week's, basically one week of training, which led to another loss, which led to another lack of confidence, and then another loss. So, I went through that tough, dark time, you know? And I think there were certain aspects of it, of it that was, it was me taking, taking the sport for granted. It was me taking my abilities for granted. And also just not taking extreme ownership of my mental state. Like, realizing that I might be the hardest worker in the gym. I am the hardest worker in the gym. At every gym I go to, I'm the hardest worker. I live life right. I do the right things. Um, but if you're not constantly taking extreme ownership of your mental state, of your confidence, your self-image, um, I think a healthy self-image is the, um, the most important component of being successful in life. And I just, I wasn't taking care of that aspect of my life.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:42

      So you were doing all the right things physically-

   4. MCMichael Chandler2:44

      Oh, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:44

      ... but you weren't doing what you needed to do mentally?

   6. MCMichael Chandler2:47

      Yeah. I mean, I think I had never visualized until after that. I mean, ho- honestly, I mean, I come from a, I come from a hardworking, uh, background. My mom and dad both worked two jobs. My dad was a union carpenter. Woke up at 5:00 in the morning every single morning, pulled his, pulled himself up by, by his bootstraps. Mom, the same way, working two, three jobs, both of them to make sure that me and my brothers had every, every single, um, advantage in life, to be... whether it be wrestling camps, football camps, this, that, the other thing. Um, but we weren't exactly taught that, hey, you can go out in the world and do great things. You can go out and you can be not just good, but great, and be a champion. And I think... I went into college wrestling, and I might, I might have told the coaches I wanted to be a national champion. I might have told the reporters, um, all the people that I was supposed to, that I wanted to be a national champion. But in my heart of hearts, I didn't truly believe it.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:34

      Hmm.

   8. MCMichael Chandler3:34

      You know? And I think... And I was. I mean, you, you ask Tyron, you ask Ben, um, those guys took me under their wing because I was the hardest worker in the room, you know? And they said, "Man, this guy could be good." But I didn't exactly believe in myself. Um, and now it's taken me almost till I'm 30 years old to f- really, truly believe that I was put on this Earth to do some amazing things, and that there is no limits on myself, and that there is no limits to my capabilities and my abilities. So, I mean, I think we underestimate how important and how mental life is. And not just in, not just in athletics, not just in fighting, not just in sports, but I mean, in anything, in business, in, in just being a good person, just believing in yourself and having a healthy self-image.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:13

      Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Um, I think that's one of the most important things to life, but it's also really difficult to cultivate.

   10. MCMichael Chandler4:20

       Oh, it is. Well, and, uh, well, I think too, I mean, I'm very hard on myself, you know? I mean, I think anybody who's, who's successful is, is at least relatively hard on themselves. And I, I think I got to the point where I just started calling myself lazy. You know, I wake up every morning, you know, and I, and I think, "Michael, you're being lazy if you don't do something today. Listen to this podcast, or watch this YouTube video, or read this book, or spend 10 minutes, 5 minutes, 30 minutes visualizing yourself in a cage, or on a podium, or having loads of wealth, or having loads of influence, having loads of impact, having, having ridiculous amounts of, of success." Because until you actually see it in your mind's eye, you can't actually achieve it. Or, w- you're gonna get to the point right on the cusp of about to be achieving it, and you're gonna have that cognitive dissonance where something, something pops up where you have the opportunity to break that barrier, but you're gonna find a way to sabotage yourself because you don't truly believe that you deserve it. And I did that numerous times in college. There was times where I was beating, um, top-ranked guys in the country and would somehow find a way to lose, because winning, to me, being crazy successful, to me, wasn't exactly... it didn't exactly mesh with how I truly saw myself, you know?

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:32

       Hmm.

   12. MCMichael Chandler5:32

       I think it's... And I think I can look back on that, not with regret, but with that kinda edu- now just educate myself. And I look back and I can put myself at national duals against C.P. Schleyter, us versus Minnesota. My team needed me to win. He was ranked top five in the country. I wasn't supposed to beat him. I was up by two take-downs, and somehow in the third period, I lose the match. And I can go back and, and see that in my mind and realize, okay, that was a time. Let's, uh, let's, let's, uh, let's respect that for what it is and let's use that as fuel for the future. I mean, my, my loss to Eddie Alvarez was, was a lot of technical, a lot of technical...... this, the things I did wrong technically. Losses to Will Brooks were, were things I did wrong technically. Um, but mentally, I wasn't there as well. And then I came back with a vengeance and then won. And I've, now I've won six of my last seven. The only loss was a, you know, a crazy freak injury and now we can continue to move forward. And just kinda look at it from, as an adult instead of ... Take the emotion out of it and look at it A plus B equals C, you know? And so it's really kinda helped me.

3. 6:32 – 9:16

   Building belief: visualization, self-image, and avoiding self-sabotage

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:32

      I think for a lot of people who don't test themselves in such an extreme manner, I mean, I think MMA is probably one of the most extreme things you could do for a job other than being a soldier-

   2. MCMichael Chandler6:42

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:42

      ... or a fireman or a police officer or something like that. But it's that, this idea that you sabotage yourself because you can't imagine yourself winning. Chael Sonnen talked about that quite a bit-

   4. MCMichael Chandler6:54

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:54

      ... about his fight with Anderson Silva.

   6. MCMichael Chandler6:57

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:57

      How he was, you know, kind of dominating him, not kind of, but was dominating him, was very close to being the UFC Middleweight Champion, found a way to fall into a triangle.

   8. MCMichael Chandler7:05

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:05

      And he had done that with Paulo Filho when he fought him and that there was this thing that he would do where he would find a way to fuck it up.

   10. MCMichael Chandler7:13

       Yeah. (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:14

       Almost even though you're there doing it, the pressure of possibly pulling it off was, uh, too overwhelming-

   12. MCMichael Chandler7:19

       That you didn't believe it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:20

       ... in some, some ways, yeah.

   14. MCMichael Chandler7:21

       You didn't, you didn't believe it. And, and, and it's not even ... I mean, we're, we're all, I think we're all victim to our sub- our subconscious sometimes too. I mean, like, like we said, I mean, we're in their fighting, you think, "Okay, that's, that's a man in there fighting. He, he has control of his body." But you, you do, but you don't. I mean, like, w- when, when Chael was getting caught, I mean, I, I know exactly what you're talking about. For everybody know- remembers that fight 'cause-

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:41

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MCMichael Chandler7:41

       ... we were all sitting there watching, thinking, "Holy cow, I can't believe Chael is beating-"

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:45

       He was a couple minutes away from being the world champ.

   18. MCMichael Chandler7:46

       Beating the tar out of him-

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:47

       Yeah.

   20. MCMichael Chandler7:48

       ... you know? And all of a sudden, I think we all saw the triangle coming too, you know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:52

       Anderson, it seemed like he put- pushed the arm down real slow and then all of a sudden, he threw the leg over and we're all like, "What are you doing?" And then- Right.

   22. MCMichael Chandler7:58

       ... you know, then 30 seconds later, he's, you know, or 10 seconds later the, the fight's over. And I think it's the, the, your views or your beliefs not matching up with the reality and all the sudden there's that fine line between breaking that barrier. And unless you have been there before, unless, like I said, visualizing yourself extremely successful, extremely wealthy, someone to be looked at, someone to be admired, someone to be f- to, to follow. Unless you see that, you're gonna get to the point where you tell everybody you want the success, but you're not going to get it unless you 100% truly believe in it. And it took me 30 years to figure it out. So (laughs) anybody who's done that before, you know, it's, it's okay, it'll come with time. But you really have to, like I said, take extreme ownership of inside your brain. Between your ears is the most important part of life, as we've already said. And, and, and you can continue to work hard. And, and, and I go back to the talking about being lazy. You know, I literally call myself lazy and, you know, shame myself, (laughs) you know, like, "Michael, why didn't you do this today? Why didn't you work on your mental, you know, your mental health today, your self-image today? Why didn't you visualize? Why didn't you do that?" Because that's just, just like flexing a muscle in the gym, just like throwing 1,000 repetitions, whether it be on the punching bag or drilling a wrestling move or a, or a take down, it's all the same stuff. And arguably more important on the mental side of things than it is on the physical side of things.

4. 9:16 – 15:13

   Books and tools: ‘Mind Gym,’ mental highlight reels, and balance vs ego

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:16

      Well, you keep saying extreme ownership. Did you read Jocko's book?

   2. MCMichael Chandler9:19

      I, I have it. I have ... It's one of those ones where I have it and I haven't read it yet. But-

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:23

      What ...

   4. MCMichael Chandler9:23

      ... I, I love that, that word extreme ownership.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:26

      Yeah, it's an awesome word.

   6. MCMichael Chandler9:27

      Uh-huh.

   7. JRJoe Rogan9:27

      And it's an awesome book too. And it's from a guy who's actually lived it, you know?

   8. MCMichael Chandler9:30

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan9:30

      There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of wisdom in his life experiences that you, you can get something out of. Um, I ask because you, you obviously are a guy who se- seeks out knowledge, right?

   10. MCMichael Chandler9:43

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:43

       You, you work on your mind. What, what was it? Was it a book or is it a series of books? Like what, what got you thinking differently?

   12. MCMichael Chandler9:52

       Well, honestly for me, what got me thinking differently was honestly just going through the most trying time of my life. I mean, I had just gotten married, now it's time to be a man, now it's time to step up, now it's time to provide. And all of a sudden, I go through this loss streak where after my third loss, I went home to San Diego with my wife, we sat on the couch and we sit there and we just cried.

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:11

       Who was the third loss?

   14. MCMichael Chandler10:12

       Uh, third loss was Will Brooks the second time.

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:15

       Oh, that's right.

   16. MCMichael Chandler10:15

       So, um, so I'd lost to him twice, Eddie once, and then now the, the Madison Square Garden one. But we went home, we sat there, and it was almost like, "What do we do now? Is Bellator gonna cut me? Am I ... Did I work this hard to now, you know, be where I'm at now?" You know what I mean? I was at ... I mean, I was at two years or a year and a half removed from being one of the top three guys in the world. I'd just beaten Eddie, Eddie and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And now here I was three fights in a row, lost. But it was, it was that time where I realized, right ... I was actually starting to change my kinda mental, uh, training and stuff. I was starting my mental training as I was going into that third fight, um, or that, that third loss, that second fight with Will Brooks. Um, but I just hadn't been there yet. And honestly, that one, that one was more just like, I got caught, you know? Um, but that, that was really what kinda set the trigger. And, and I re- and I think I just started to realize, "Michael, why?" You know, you, you sit there and you tell people you wanna be the best. You, your, your actions speak louder than your words, you work harder than everybody else. You show up first, you, you're the last one to leave, you take care of your body, you do all the right things. At the end of the day, somebody has to be the best. Why shouldn't it be you? And I kept asking myself that question, and I'd ... The only answer I could come up with was, "I deserve to be the best." I really do. You know, I, and I can say that with humility to say, "I really do deserve to be the best guy in the, in the entire world at lightweight." No- nobody works harder than I do, nobody takes care of themselves better than I do, nobody has made the sacrifices that I have, and nobody lives the, the clean lifestyle like I do and has, has a calling on their life like I do. Yet when it came down to it, it has taken years and years and decades to almost erase the small-mindedness that I've had in my past. Um, and we're all just a constant work in progress. And I, and I think I just ... I came up with work hard, good things might happen, but most likely it'll be mediocre. You know, that's kinda, that was kinda my mindset, you know?

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:05

       But what did you do different? Like what, what did you change?

   18. MCMichael Chandler12:08

       For me? Yeah, reading books. Um-

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:10

       Like what specifically? Do you remember?

   20. MCMichael Chandler12:11

       Um ...

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:12

       Like what triggered it or what helped you?

   22. MCMichael Chandler12:14

       There's a, um, there was a, a book called Mind Gym.... have you ever heard of it?

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:17

       No.

   24. MCMichael Chandler12:18

       Mind Gym. And they talked about, um, he talks about making a mental highlight reel. And since that day, I've made mental highlight reels every couple of months. And even, even right now, to this day, there's, on my mental highlight reel right now is beating Kyler Sanderson, um, at Mizzou on senior night when him and I were ranked at the same, we were ranked like f- fourth and fifth in the country, you know. And not that I wasn't supposed to beat him, but the manner in which I beat him, I almost majored him. And it was one of those breakthrough moments where I gave myself permission in front of everybody to just go out there and beat a guy handedly.

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:51

       And this is a wrestling match?

   26. MCMichael Chandler12:52

       And it was a wrestling match, you know?

   27. JRJoe Rogan12:53

       And so when you say make a mental highlight reel, this is of your past accomplishments?

   28. MCMichael Chandler12:59

       Past accomplishments. And I think the biggest detriment, the, the biggest detriment to the people that work hard and expect a lot of themselves is when you have achievements, you don't take time to smell the roses, you don't take time to pat yourself on the back. You fe- you think that, "Okay, well, if I, if I s- if I stop and I say, 'You know what? I am good. Oh my gosh, I did do a great job. Holy cow, I was dominant.'" You're not supposed to do that because that's prideful and that's, that's, that's conceited and that's narcissistic. But really, if you're not your biggest fan, who's gonna be, you know? And I think that's what I always did. I would accomplish something and I'd say, "Okay, well, I'm supposed to accomplish that."

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:30

       Right.

   30. MCMichael Chandler13:30

       "I was- I won this tournament. Well, I was supposed to." You were ranked-
5. 15:13 – 19:53

   Recreating flow state: journaling, coaching feedback, and smart training

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:13

      So this flow state thing, so like when you're in a state where you feel like everything is just clicking-

   2. MCMichael Chandler15:20

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:21

      ... do you try to, how do you try to recreate that in your mind to remember that state?

   4. MCMichael Chandler15:26

      I think it's, I think it, it is writing things down after a practice, or, or honestly sometimes what I like to do is-

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:31

      Do you, do you do that? You're like-

   6. MCMichael Chandler15:32

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:32

      ... have a journal, a, a training journal?

   8. MCMichael Chandler15:34

      Yeah, try to write things down. I mean, and, and that's, that's things too that can be added to a mental highlight reel, you know, like going, like having a really great sparring day and then remembering what you had for breakfast, remembering how your, how your day started, remember whether you did or did not watch the TV before practice, or, you know, those little things. And then, and then I always talk about working extremely hard and surrounding yourself with the best people possible, and that's why I've, you know, I moved out to Las Vegas right when I started fighting and then moved to San Diego and then moved, and then moved my training camp to Arizona and then now Florida and now, you know, so I've moved all over the country to find the best guys I possibly can. So when you have a great day like that, sit down with the coaches and say, "Hey, coach," you know, talking to Henry or Evan or Cami or, or one of these guys that is coaching me right now, and talk about it, like almost overly talk about it, which that, those guys are always annoying to me or they always used to be, like, "Hey, I did this right and I did this right and I did this right," because I always thought, "Well, you should just work. You shouldn't talk."

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:28

      Right. Right.

   10. MCMichael Chandler16:28

       "Just work." But you ge- I- I've started to realize that those things need to be vocalized or they get swept under the rug and you forget that you had a great day. So now we sit down and we talk and we say, "Hey, man, that, that three-two was really, really working great off the feint and we worked that, we worked that yesterday as we were hitting mitts," and now you're continuing to show yourself that this thing really actually does work. You're not just working to work, you're working smart. And then you see, you see that working smart actually turns into results and then you're, you're, you're, you're like a lab rat in the gym working on these little experiments that you're, that you're making and you're actually collecting the data and seeing the results.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:05

       Now when you're talking about doing a mental highlight reel thing, is this sort of a, a rebuilding exercise, a rebuilding confidence exercise, or is this just a solidifying skill set and understanding your potential 'cause you've already done things before? Like 'cause you were in a bad spot-

   12. MCMichael Chandler17:21

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       ... when you started doing this.

   14. MCMichael Chandler17:22

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:23

       And you, is this when you started constructing this highlight reel thing?

   16. MCMichael Chandler17:28

       That's wh- Yeah, that's when it, that's when I really... I actually read the book in, in college and then found it on my shelf one day.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:33

       Do you know who wrote it, Mind Gym? Gary...

   18. MCMichael Chandler17:34

       Oh, suit-

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:35

       You find it, Jimmy? Gary Mack, I think. Gary Mack.

   20. MCMichael Chandler17:37

       Gary Mack. Gary Mack.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:38

       Powerful guy, Mack.

   22. MCMichael Chandler17:39

       Yeah. And then there was just a bunch of... And there was another book, um... Don't remind or remind me, it's called How Champions Think. Um, but... And it was just a bunch of, a bunch of instances where they would talk about Tiger Woods, they would talk about this guy or that guy, you know?

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:52

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MCMichael Chandler17:52

       And then one of the chapters was doing a mental highlight reel, and I think it can be used for both. I mean, no, I- I mean, you should do one today. We should all do one today, whether you're in a great place, whether you're just, you just closed the biggest business deal you ever possibly could or you just...... are down in the dumps because you feel like the biggest loser on earth. You do a mental highlight reel to just, it's- it's just like going to the gym. And then it changes, you know, maybe- maybe this month is different than next month. Maybe you- you wipe off an old one and you put on a brand new one that you just remembered. 'Cause sometimes we forget successes that we have. It takes- it takes me going to my Wikipedia page or me, you know, l- going on some old interviews or- or somebody telling me on Twitter, "Hey, remember that time you did this?" for me to actually remember the successes that I've had, because I've been conditioned to pull myself up by my boot- bootstraps every single day and forget about all my accomplishments on my past 'cause those don't matter. Those are stumbling, those, what I used to look at as stumbling blocks. Because what got you here isn't gonna get you where- where you wanna go. And we have that, some sort of that- that mentality but you have to take the time to remember and almost look at yourself the way other people see you, because we all are a big- are- are all our biggest critics. You know, the way my fans see me, the way you watch me fight is, and- and- the- the- the way you see my abilities, is probably even better than I s- have seen myself a lot in my past from an outside perspective-

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:08

       Right.

   26. MCMichael Chandler19:08

       ... it's so much easier to look at someone outside perspective, because, uh, our own inner monologue or our own in- in- our- our own self-image dummies down who we are and- and how much we want to accomplish. Not all of us. I mean, there's a lot of people out there who are cocky, narcissiti- narcissistic people who think they are the, you know-

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:25

       Those people have the hardest time coming back from losses, though.

   28. MCMichael Chandler19:28

       Big time. Yeah, because-

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:29

       They seem like when they get head kicked or something and- and then they realize-

   30. MCMichael Chandler19:31

       Yeah.
6. 19:53 – 23:57

   688 days without a win: pressure, perfectionism, and fighting frequency

   1. MCMichael Chandler19:53

      Yeah, well, and, I mean, I think I- I am by no means the poster child for- for that. I mean, it- it took me a loss that carried me into another loss and another loss. It was, uh ... I went 688 days without a win. And I'll never ... But when I write a book some days, it's, you know, some day it's gonna be called 688 Days, and that's how long it took me to go from loss to win, and that's a long time.

   2. JRJoe Rogan20:13

      That's a long fucking time.

   3. MCMichael Chandler20:14

      That's a long time to be- to question yourself every single day, to wake up in the morning wondering if you're gonna have a paycheck, wondering if you're gonna get a phone call from your manager, wondering if you really wanted to open up your phone and see h- all the negative comments that, "I told you Michael Chandler wasn't as good as we all thought he was."

   4. JRJoe Rogan20:32

      Oh, you don't read that shit, do you? (laughs)

   5. MCMichael Chandler20:32

      Oh, I can't believe I believed it. (laughs) "You can't read that, dude."

   6. JRJoe Rogan20:35

      You know? But I mean, not even, you know, not even just the fans, it was, you know, the media wrote me off, and- and- and everybody. Yeah.

   7. MCMichael Chandler20:40

      You, you know, the, you're- you're just, you get written off and- and it's, it- it shapes the reality when really the reality was, man, I- I was put on this earth to do some great things but it just took me ... I look back, I look at it now and I think, you know, if bad things happen to you but a good things come- a good thing comes from it, was it really a bad thing? And I look at it and I say, "Everybody's got losses. It's not a big deal." You know, I remember the sting, I remember the pain, I remember the embarrassment. I mean, what we also remem- gotta remember too is, this is embarrassing. You lose a fight, that's embarrassing. You know, you-

   8. JRJoe Rogan21:11

      Yeah, it's a hard pill to swallow.

   9. MCMichael Chandler21:12

      Yeah. You know? So it's- it's tough.

   10. JRJoe Rogan21:14

       Especially when you're a former champion and then you're going these 600 plus days without a- a win. And that's, it really highlights the difficult nature of fighting as opposed to any other sport where, you know, there's- there's times where it's entirely likely that you're gonna go a long time without competing again.

   11. MCMichael Chandler21:35

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan21:35

       You could go six months without competing again. You can go eight months. Guys go a year if you get injured.

   13. MCMichael Chandler21:40

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan21:41

       That's a long fucking time. Any other sport, if you lose a baseball game, you know, you drop a ball-

   15. MCMichael Chandler21:46

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan21:47

       ... like, you're back at it.

   17. MCMichael Chandler21:48

       Next day.

   18. JRJoe Rogan21:48

       The next day.

   19. MCMichael Chandler21:49

       Same thing with wrestling.

   20. JRJoe Rogan21:50

       Yeah.

   21. MCMichael Chandler21:50

       You know, wrestling- wrestling was great because, you know, you- you lost- you lost a match on Saturday, you were able to- to come back in the duel on Wednesday or even the next Saturday. Seven days you had to go.

   22. JRJoe Rogan22:00

       Yeah.

   23. MCMichael Chandler22:00

       You know, I mean, a lot of times, yeah, w- I mean, barring injuries or whatnot, I mean, it could be a year before you get to- get to step back in the cage again, and then every single day you spend questioning. And every single day ... You also just end up putting so much pressure on yourself. I mean, my ... The biggest thing that I did wrong was I came into the sport, I wasn't, uh, I w- and literally 18 months after starting the sport, I was in a cage with Eddie Alvarez, top five guy in the world. Beat Eddie Alvarez. Then it was like, "Okay, now you have to perform." Like, you-

   24. JRJoe Rogan22:28

       That was that soon after starting the sport?

   25. MCMichael Chandler22:30

       Yeah. Uh, August of 2009 I had my first fight, and then I fought him in 2011.

   26. JRJoe Rogan22:37

       That's crazy.

   27. MCMichael Chandler22:38

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan22:38

       And you finished him.

   29. MCMichael Chandler22:39

       And finished him.

   30. JRJoe Rogan22:40

       But, yeah.
7. 23:57 – 32:16

   Skillset strategy: 90% self-development, 10% opponent prep

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:57

      Now, when you look at yourself and you look at your overall MMA skillset, do you, uh, do you try to look at it almost like as if you're managing yourself? Not managing yourself like a fight manager but-

   2. MCMichael Chandler24:08

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan24:08

      ... like- like a project?

   4. MCMichael Chandler24:09

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan24:10

      Like, looking at it like, "Okay, this is what we need to work on, this is how I need to tighten this up, and ti-" Do you- do you look at it as, like, an overall long-term project? Like, how do you- how do you f- visualize it?

   6. MCMichael Chandler24:20

      Yeah. I mean, and- and I- and I get that question a lot too, is like, well, hey, how much- how much- how do you prepare for an opponent? And honestly, you know, I-... mm, I'd say almost 90% of my training is focusing on myself. I mean, 'cause if I, if I put the right systems in place, if I get the right sil- skill sets as sharp as they can be for fight night, there's not a guy in the lightweight division in the entire world that I think can beat me. That last 10%, 90% focus on myself, the last 10% focus on the little intricacies, the little habits, the little, the little tendencies that my opponents might have. I mean, Eddie did a great job with it in the second round. They knew if they ran from me and cir-

   7. JRJoe Rogan24:54

      The second fight?

   8. MCMichael Chandler24:55

      Yeah. They ran from me and they circled and circled and circled. Crazy maniac robot come forward like a reckless abandon. Michael Chandler's gonna come and he's gonna eat a thousand, you know, eat a thousand jabs and you can keep him off you long enough to hopefully maybe win a decision. They did a good job at that. I wasn't cutting off the, I wasn't cutting off the cage. I wasn't using my feints. I was start- trying to throw big shots because why? We had that epic battle in 2011. I wasn't 100% confident in my training. So that led me to just fight like a barbarian rather than a skillful veteran that has the skills and the abilities to be able to go out there and beat any lightweight in the world, you know? So I think that's-

   9. JRJoe Rogan25:31

      Well, you're still relatively new with your fighting experience too, right?

   10. MCMichael Chandler25:34

       Well, at the time-

   11. JRJoe Rogan25:35

       At that time, you're only-

   12. MCMichael Chandler25:35

       ... the second fight.

   13. JRJoe Rogan25:36

       Yeah.

   14. MCMichael Chandler25:36

       But I was still very young and I had changed. I, I had moved to a training camp where I wasn't getting... We all, we all need to look at ourselves too or not- I'm not telling people how to live their lives or train, but I needed to focus on a certain path to victory. Find the easiest path to victory. Bruce Lee, you know, water, be like water. You know, I mean adapt, but also just say, "Okay, I'm a, not a long, not a long guy, not a tall guy. I'm a shorter, powerful wrestler who can take anybody down, who's not gonna get taken down, who has an overhand right that can knock any- knock anybody out in the entire world. Um, and a gas tank that can, that can come, that will surpass any 25 minutes that I need to fight." So I needed to focus on these certain five elements to be successful and not a thousand stuff. I mean, training with Dominic Cruz and working on footwork and doing this and doing that and roll outs and all that kind of stuff, it just, it wasn't the right path to victory for me. Therefore, I found myself almost out-training myself. I was training so much when if I would've really just would have trained basics and good cardio, good strength and conditioning, good boxing, good wrestling, good grappling, I'd be, I'd be-

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:42

       That's easy to say-

   16. MCMichael Chandler26:43

       ... done. (laughs) Now it is.

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:44

       ... now after the fact, right?

   18. MCMichael Chandler26:45

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:45

       But, and-

   20. MCMichael Chandler26:45

       You get stuck in that, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan26:46

       What, wh- where were you training at the time? Were you training at Alliance?

   22. MCMichael Chandler26:49

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan26:49

       Yeah. And d- so you felt like you were trying to mimic like Dominic's crazy movement and-

   24. MCMichael Chandler26:55

       I think it's just, I mean, the good thing about that training camp is they have, they have opened themselves up to a lot of different techniques. You know, I mean, I, I, I feel like I'm pretty athletic. I feel like I catch on pretty quickly, but really to be successful, like if I was going to step into the cage with Khabib tomorrow, I'm going to focus on the basics that win. I mean, you can win a whole fight with a one-two and good take-down defense, some take-down offense and some good grappling, you know? And that's it, that's all you need. And in my mind, the more I try to make this an intricate sport and a, and a complicated sport, the more you're going to find yourself having incremental defeats, you know? Like when I'm, when I'm sparring outside of my element, all of a sudden I find, okay, I tried this this round and I got beat up, like cra- you know, I got beat up, which messes up your confidence and all that stuff.

   25. JRJoe Rogan27:43

       Do you feel like... And this is something that I struggle with too when, when trying to analyze a fighter's performances and their future and what, what you can and can't do. Do you, do you feel like you go into MMA with a certain skill set? You, you started out as a wrestler and, you know, you're not going to be like a karate expert.

   26. MCMichael Chandler28:04

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan28:04

       Right? You're not going to be a Wonderboy.

   28. MCMichael Chandler28:06

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan28:06

       You're not going to be a jujitsu expert, which you are as a powerful wrestler with great striking. That's your, that's your skill set, you're strong and you got great cardio.

   30. MCMichael Chandler28:16

       Mm-hmm.
8. 32:16 – 36:03

   Bad judging and why MMA scoring still fails fighters

   1. MCMichael Chandler32:16

      So it's just funny s- that kinda stuff too, this, this sport is left up to, you know, the perception-

   2. JRJoe Rogan32:20

      People who don't necessarily know what they're doing.

   3. MCMichael Chandler32:22

      Well, that too, yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan32:23

      Yeah, that's a real problem with me.

   5. MCMichael Chandler32:24

      (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan32:24

      I- I go crazy. I'm like, "Man-

   7. MCMichael Chandler32:26

      Like, I remember you talking about it (laughs) a couple fights ago-

   8. JRJoe Rogan32:29

      Shit, me and, me and DC.

   9. MCMichael Chandler32:29

      ... where you kept saying the one name you ... Yeah, you're like, "We're not gonna say that name."

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:32

       Leave that lady alone.

   11. MCMichael Chandler32:33

       Yeah. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:34

       (laughs)

   13. MCMichael Chandler32:34

       She's a nice lady.

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:35

       But look, man, it's, it's just a disgrace that you have people that really don't know anything about martial arts-

   15. MCMichael Chandler32:42

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:42

       ... and they're judging martial arts competitions.

   17. MCMichael Chandler32:45

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:45

       I mean, if ... Could you imagine if you had like an, an Ultimate Fighting Championship, uh, eight-man tournament with all the judges?

   19. MCMichael Chandler32:52

       Yeah. (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:52

       And have them fight each other?

   21. MCMichael Chandler32:53

       Yeah, right. We'd be like-

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:54

       We'd be like, "What in the fuck is going on here?"

   23. MCMichael Chandler32:56

       ... "Whoa, what is going on here?" (laughs) Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:56

       "You guys don't even train?"

   25. MCMichael Chandler32:57

       (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:58

       "You don't know anything about fighting at all?"

   27. MCMichael Chandler33:00

       Well, they take ... What do they take, a test?

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:01

       I don't know.

   29. MCMichael Chandler33:01

       A written test, you know? I mean ...

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:03

       A lot of them in certain commissions come from boxing, so they're, they're boxing judges, which-
9. 36:03 – 39:26

   Weight classes, weight cutting, and measuring the ‘real’ body

   1. JRJoe Rogan36:03

      You know? And I just think we, we need to overhaul that, and for whatever reason, they're reluctant to do so.Um, we talked about, before this podcast started, we talked about weight classes.

   2. MCMichael Chandler36:13

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan36:13

      I think that's another giant issue.

   4. MCMichael Chandler36:14

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan36:14

      I think every 10 pounds is a legitimate compromise.

   6. MCMichael Chandler36:17

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan36:17

      And I think what we have now, like, the 185 to 205-pound gap is just bananas.

   8. MCMichael Chandler36:22

      Huge.

   9. JRJoe Rogan36:22

      You know, 20 pounds in between world championship weight classes.

   10. MCMichael Chandler36:25

       Like, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan36:26

       It's just nuts. You're dealing with two different sized humans.

   12. MCMichael Chandler36:29

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan36:29

       It's just so different.

   14. MCMichael Chandler36:30

       Completely, yeah. I mean, and, and, yeah. I mean, obviously, closer to home for me would be that 165-ish, you know?

   15. JRJoe Rogan36:35

       Mm-hmm, yeah.

   16. MCMichael Chandler36:35

       I mean, and there's so many competitors, or so many just... The average human being is between, you know, 150 and 190-

   17. JRJoe Rogan36:42

       Right, right, right.

   18. MCMichael Chandler36:42

       ... you know? I mean, there's the big guys, there's the small guys, but we're kinda in that mid-range, you know?

   19. JRJoe Rogan36:47

       Yeah.

   20. MCMichael Chandler36:47

       And I think a 165 weight class, for a lot of us at 155, um, I mean, I, I would always probably stay at 155. I would love some, some cool match-ups at 165 and be able to try to go for different belts and all that kinda stuff. Obviously, that would be great. But, um-

   21. JRJoe Rogan36:59

       Yeah.

   22. MCMichael Chandler37:00

       ... 155 is, is great for me. Um, but there's definitely, I know some guys who are missing weights. You saw Kevin Lee two weeks ago miss weight.

   23. JRJoe Rogan37:06

       Yeah.

   24. MCMichael Chandler37:07

       Um, Khabib has obviously missed weight numerous times, but-

   25. JRJoe Rogan37:10

       Well, Khabib is, you know, he's a big guy.

   26. MCMichael Chandler37:13

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan37:14

       When he gets down to 155, that is quite a cut.

   28. MCMichael Chandler37:17

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan37:17

       And, uh, since he's been... I believe he's with George Lockhart, right?

   30. MCMichael Chandler37:20

       Yeah, I think so.
10. 39:26 – 47:32

    Strength & conditioning: building power and ‘bulletproofing’ the body

    1. JRJoe Rogan39:26

       Cam Hanes went and worked out with you-

    2. MCMichael Chandler39:28

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan39:28

       ... in one of your strength and conditioning workouts.

    4. MCMichael Chandler39:30

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JRJoe Rogan39:30

       Uh, who was your, your strength coach for that?

    6. MCMichael Chandler39:32

       That was, uh, Todd Durkin in San Diego at Fitness Quest 10.

    7. JRJoe Rogan39:35

       Right.

    8. MCMichael Chandler39:35

       So that was, uh, that was something he, he had just skyd- he was, went skydiving that morning.

    9. JRJoe Rogan39:39

       Yeah, with Andy Stump.

    10. MCMichael Chandler39:40

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan39:40

        And he, uh-

    12. MCMichael Chandler39:41

        Yeah. He wanted to come in for a workout, and yeah, we went through... I mean, a lot of my stuff is not crazy heavy, um, but it's just a lot of reps, a lot of cardio, a lot of, a lot of moving stuff around, a lot of functional movements, and we had a, we had a blast.

    13. JRJoe Rogan39:52

        Like, what kind of stuff are you doing?

    14. MCMichael Chandler39:54

        Man, I love med ball stuffs. Uh-

    15. JRJoe Rogan39:55

        Mm-hmm.

    16. MCMichael Chandler39:55

        I love med ball slams, med ball rotations. I love anything... What I always focus on is strength plus speed equals power. So we'll do one strength movement, whether it's a, whether it's a deadlift, whether it's a, you know, a trap bar deadlift or a squat, straight into a speed movement, which would be, like, just a plyometric squat jump. So you got the strength plus the speed, and that's how you continue to gain power-

    17. JRJoe Rogan40:19

        Mm-hmm.

    18. MCMichael Chandler40:19

        ... in supersets, you know? So then, so then maybe we're doing a bench press, you know. Bench press isn't the greatest workout, but it's focusing on the punching power, just three reps of something a little bit heavy.

    19. JRJoe Rogan40:29

        You're doing dumbbells or barbells? What are you doing there?

    20. MCMichael Chandler40:31

        Um, barbells and dumbbells, right to a plyometric push-up. So now you got another strength plus a speed equals power.

    21. JRJoe Rogan40:38

        So plyometric push-up, meaning you explode up?

    22. MCMichael Chandler40:40

        Yeah, yeah. And-

    23. JRJoe Rogan40:41

        And do you, do you, are you clapping at the top, like, how you, uh-

    24. MCMichael Chandler40:44

        You could, yeah, you could. You don't have to. I mean, a lot of times it's just exploding as hard as you can-

    25. JRJoe Rogan40:47

        Mm-hmm.

    26. MCMichael Chandler40:47

        ... and then catching yourself. Exploding as hard as you can. Um, we do a lot of that kind of stuff, whether it's, you know, squats to hurdle jumps, or s- deadlifts to, um, med ball slam to jump. You know? I mean, we're always... And that also gets your heart rate up. It's also just getting your body moving like crazy. So, I mean, a lot of this stuff we're doing at my, at my new gym, a lot of that programming is, is very similar to that, where we have, like, a RIPPED class, where it's resistance, interval, power, plyometric, and ert- and endurance. And we're focusing on all those things.

    27. JRJoe Rogan41:15

        Everybody likes to do that, though, like to make a, an acronym.

    28. MCMichael Chandler41:18

        (laughs) Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan41:18

        People love doing that.

    30. MCMichael Chandler41:19

        That was my boy PJ. That was my bo- my boy PJ at training camp. And I loved it though. I was like, "RIPPED? What is that?" And then I was like, "Wow, R-I-P-P-E-D. I love it." So-
11. 47:32 – 1:05:32

    Visualization in practice: triggers, cage memories, and scary fight moments

    1. JRJoe Rogan47:32

       Now when you say visualization-

    2. MCMichael Chandler47:35

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan47:35

       ... you say you visualize. How do you do it and what d- do you schedule a time? Like hey, at, you know, 8:00 PM tonight after training I'm gonna sit down and I'm going to visualize for an hour?

    4. MCMichael Chandler47:49

       Yeah, there needs to be a time. I mean, first of all you alwa- you always wanna try to set a time. You- you can never say I'll definitely do it tomorrow. You need to say okay, well I have, I have practice here, I have practice here, I need to eat here, I have an interview here, I have this here, that there. Just car route it doesn't need to be a crazy amount of time. I mean, you know five, five minutes is long enough. That's a long time to be... I mean that's a round. You ever, you ever grapple a round and 2 minutes goes by, you look up at the clock and there's three minutes left and you're like holy cow.

    5. JRJoe Rogan48:14

       You can't believe it. (laughs)

    6. MCMichael Chandler48:15

       Like, you know, five minutes is a long time 'cause you can get a lot done mentally 'cause, 'cause visualization knows no time. There's not a clock ticking, you know? There's things happening. There's, there's truth-

    7. JRJoe Rogan48:26

       So you close your eyes when you do this?

    8. MCMichael Chandler48:27

       I do. Mm-hmm.

    9. JRJoe Rogan48:27

       And w- where are you sitting? Are you sitting in a dark room?

    10. MCMichael Chandler48:30

        Um...

    11. JRJoe Rogan48:30

        Like how do you do this?

    12. MCMichael Chandler48:31

        Sometimes it's... I mean, the hard part with me is I'm a very good sleeper. Like I've- I've tried to be like I'm gonna wake up in the morning and I'm gonna keep laying in bed and visualize and I fall asleep. You know like... (laughs)

    13. JRJoe Rogan48:40

        (laughs)

    14. MCMichael Chandler48:40

        You know like, so you gotta know yourself, you know? That, that-

    15. JRJoe Rogan48:42

        That's good though. At least-

    16. MCMichael Chandler48:43

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan48:43

        ... at least you're getting sleep.

    18. MCMichael Chandler48:44

        Oh, for sure. Yeah, you gotta, I mean you gotta have the self-awareness to know where, where you're on, where you're off, you know?

    19. JRJoe Rogan48:50

        Right.

    20. MCMichael Chandler48:50

        So for me, I mean-... a lot of times it's- it's sitting up, sitting on a c- sitting on the couch, sitting on a chair, um, but I think the biggest thing is- is- is seeing- seeing the lights. I mean, the other day, for instance, like I was just... We were just talking about Fuji and- and putting in the mats and stuff, we just- we just installed a- a bag rack system in my gym.

    21. JRJoe Rogan49:07

        Mm-hmm.

    22. MCMichael Chandler49:07

        And something there, I don't know if it was the rubber, the cage panels or what it was, and it s- it smelled exactly like the Bellator cage. And I started to get... I got like... I literally... My heart st- heart rate started going up and I got like-

    23. JRJoe Rogan49:18

        Wow.

    24. MCMichael Chandler49:18

        ... goosebumps because of a smell.

    25. JRJoe Rogan49:20

        You get triggered.

    26. MCMichael Chandler49:21

        Yes. And I-

    27. JRJoe Rogan49:21

        That's what it is. Yeah.

    28. MCMichael Chandler49:22

        Exactly. And I know exactly what that smell is, um, so I-

    29. JRJoe Rogan49:25

        It's weird how smells do that.

    30. MCMichael Chandler49:27

        Oh, 100%. I... And I've- and I've almost... I've- I've actually asked Bellator, "Hey, can I have a piece of that cage? I wanna cut off-

Episode duration: 2:02:19