JRE MMA Show #26 with Big John McCarthy

1. 0:00 – 2:05

   Early UFC nostalgia and why the rules still confuse fans

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (knocking) Five, four, three, two, one. Boom, and we're live with the OG of OGs.

   2. BMBig John McCarthy0:08

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      If there's more of an OG MMA character than you, uh, I don't know who the fuck they would be.

   4. BMBig John McCarthy0:13

      Uh-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Who's more ... Who's m- ... Hoist Gracie and you.

   6. BMBig John McCarthy0:15

      Hoist Gracie.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      That's about as OG as it gets.

   8. BMBig John McCarthy0:17

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Right?

   10. BMBig John McCarthy0:18

       You w- You know what that means?

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       What does that mean?

   12. BMBig John McCarthy0:20

       You're both fucking old.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       We're all old.

   14. BMBig John McCarthy0:22

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:22

       Yeah, we're old.

   16. BMBig John McCarthy0:22

       Dude.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:23

       I was watching the ... There was a ... The other day was the 20th anniversary of Dan Henderson's first UFC appearance.

   18. BMBig John McCarthy0:28

       Oh my god.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       And there's me interviewing him afterwards. I'm like, "Who's that fucking little kid-"

   20. BMBig John McCarthy0:32

       Uh-huh.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       "... interviewing Dan Henn- ... Just, who is Dan Henderson-"

   22. BMBig John McCarthy0:34

       I remember.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       "... pretending to be Dan Henderson?"

   24. BMBig John McCarthy0:35

       UFC 12.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       Yeah. Dothan, Alabama.

   26. BMBig John McCarthy0:38

       You ... Well, you got ch- ... You got transferred.

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Yeah.

   28. BMBig John McCarthy0:40

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       Well, we were supposed to go up to Buffalo and then they-

   30. BMBig John McCarthy0:42

       Niagara, go down to Dothan.
2. 2:05 – 4:46

   Who really created the UFC (and who gets credit)?

   1. BMBig John McCarthy2:05

      (laughs) But anyways, when, when the unified rules ... You know, what happened was the ... Everyone looks at the UFC and says, "Oh, well, you know, when the UFC went to ..." The first show that was done in New Jersey was the IFC, Paul Smith's show. It was done in September, I want to say of 1999. Okay? And the UFC went there in November of 1999. And, and you, you have to go back and understand the history of what was going on. And, you know, it ... This is where I have my issues with people that try to change history-

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:40

      Right.

   3. BMBig John McCarthy2:40

      ... and rewrite things. And what was going on was Semaphore Entertainment Group, at the time, owned the UFC. That's who you were working for.

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:49

      Right. Bob Meyrowitz.

   5. BMBig John McCarthy2:50

      Bob Meyrowitz.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:52

      Yeah.

   7. BMBig John McCarthy2:52

      And-

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:52

      Campbell McLaren.

   9. BMBig John McCarthy2:53

      Campbell McLaren was long gone, you know. And I love-

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:55

       By then, by '99?

   11. BMBig John McCarthy2:56

       Oh my God, yes.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:57

       Yeah.

   13. BMBig John McCarthy2:57

       You know, and he talked about-

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:58

       He was there when I came around in '97 though.

   15. BMBig John McCarthy3:00

       Yeah. Well, I think he hired you.

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:01

       Yeah.

   17. BMBig John McCarthy3:01

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:01

       Yeah.

   19. BMBig John McCarthy3:02

       And, you know, he did some stuff. I mean, he, he comes up with, uh, you know, "I'm the co-creator of the UFC." Uh, you know what? Let me just ask one question. If you're the co-creator, how come you never owned one bit of it? Doesn't make sense, does it?

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:15

       Are you calling out Campbell McLaren on this podcast?

   21. BMBig John McCarthy3:17

       Hell yes.

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:18

       How dare you?

   23. BMBig John McCarthy3:19

       You know what? I'm tired of ... You know, why lie?

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:22

       I, I don't know.

   25. BMBig John McCarthy3:22

       He did things. And I will, I will absolutely give him credit for what he did, because he was the reason that it actually made it to pay-per-view. Because Art Davie had gone to everyone. Prime Ticket at the time was a pay-per-view provider. 'Cause the pay-per-view world back then was about 15 million in the US. It's not like it is now. The- ... You know, you, you were limited.

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:44

       Right.

   27. BMBig John McCarthy3:45

       But, you know, Prime Ticket was one, HBO was another. And he had gone to all those, and they all turned him down. "No, no, no, no." And there was this one company, Semaphore Entertainment Group out of New York, that did rock and roll shows and they did one sporting event. It was Martina Navla- ... Navratilova against Jimmy Connors in tennis.

   28. JRJoe Rogan4:05

       Oh, wow.

   29. BMBig John McCarthy4:06

       The remake of the-

   30. JRJoe Rogan4:07

       I remember that.
3. 4:46 – 10:50

   Rorion Gracie, the Gracie Challenge, and why Royce was perfect marketing

   1. BMBig John McCarthy4:46

      Look at ... Ro- Rorion, Rorion had, you know, his thing. I love ... You know, what ... I fell in love with what they did. That's how I got involved.

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:53

      Right.

   3. BMBig John McCarthy4:54

      But Rorion ... Art Davie went to Rorion because he needed validity. He needed somebody to give actual value and some credence to what he was trying to do, because he went to Rorion off of a, uh ... There was an article in Playboy Magazine, Bad.

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:12

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BMBig John McCarthy5:12

      You know, and it was about Rorion and, you know, this guy, this family that would fight anybody and, you know, $100,000 challenge.

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:18

      When you're saying Bad, it was a bad article-

   7. BMBig John McCarthy5:20

      No, that was-

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:20

      ... or it was called Bad?

   9. BMBig John McCarthy5:21

      That was the actual title, B-A-D, across two pages, Bad-

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:26

       Oh.

   11. BMBig John McCarthy5:27

       ... was the title.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:28

       I remember reading the article. I don't remember that part about it. But it was, it was basically, they were offering, like, a lot of money to fight anybody, right?

   13. BMBig John McCarthy5:34

       Yeah. Well, well, it was the whole thing of the $100,000 challenge.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:37

       Yeah.

   15. BMBig John McCarthy5:37

       But he didn't have $100,000.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:39

       Right.

   17. BMBig John McCarthy5:39

       You know? And so it was, "Well, if you bring $100,000, I'll put up 100..." No one's bringing $100,000.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:44

       Right.

   19. BMBig John McCarthy5:44

       So-

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:44

       So it was just more like a publicity stunt.

   21. BMBig John McCarthy5:47

       Yeah. You know-

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:47

       So th- ... And, and they did ... Obviously, they had the Gracie challenge before that, and they did all the Gracie in action tapes that we'd all seen.

   23. BMBig John McCarthy5:54

       Yep.

   24. JRJoe Rogan5:54

       And you'd see all these karate masters-

   25. BMBig John McCarthy5:56

       All of the 3-

   26. JRJoe Rogan5:56

       ... get taken down and strangled.

   27. BMBig John McCarthy5:58

       You know, and that was, that was th- the thing that ... I loved the fact, when, you know ... I can go through the whole thing of how I met Rorion, but when I met him f-... there was never anything about, "Well, you know, we, we would do this in that situation, but we can't do that 'cause we'll hurt you," or, you know, something like-

   28. JRJoe Rogan6:14

       Mm-hmm.

   29. BMBig John McCarthy6:15

       And that was what happened in a lot of martial arts. "Oh, well, we can't do that because that would really-"

   30. JRJoe Rogan6:18

       Right.
4. 10:50 – 14:23

   Who coined the term 'Mixed Martial Arts' and escaping 'No Holds Barred'

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:50

      Right. Yeah. So, um, yeah. So MMA, who, who named it Mixed Martial Arts?

   2. BMBig John McCarthy10:57

      You know, that's a ... Look at. That's a whole story and you're gonna hear-

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:01

      I heard it was you.

   4. BMBig John McCarthy11:02

      Well, I (laughs) ... I give credit to Jeff Blatnick as far as ... Look it-

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:08

      Ah.

   6. BMBig John McCarthy11:08

      He didn't come up with the term.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:10

      Who did?

   8. BMBig John McCarthy11:10

      But the truth of th- you know, and this is the first thing I can tell you. I wrote (laughs) , I wrote a, uh ... I had to do what's called a work permit for LAPD because I worked for LAPD back in 1993, '93 into '94. And it was because I was going to referee this second UFC which was March 11th of 1994. And for me to actually work, the department has to allow me to. I have to ask for permission and then they have to grant that permission.

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:43

      Was there a concern that it was too outrageous or too-

   10. BMBig John McCarthy11:46

       Well, that was part of the whole thing is I didn't want to say, "Oh, I got two guys going into a cage, they're going to beat the shit out of each other."

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:52

       Right.

   12. BMBig John McCarthy11:53

       So I s- the first thing I put was martial arts referee.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:57

       Hmm. Okay.

   14. BMBig John McCarthy11:57

       And then they said, "Well, what kind of martial arts?" So I wrote mixed martial arts referee.

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:03

       Ah.

   16. BMBig John McCarthy12:03

       Now, I can tell you that that was in '99.... right at the end of '93 and beginning of '94.

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:08

       And where'd you get that term?

   18. BMBig John McCarthy12:10

       I didn't get it from anywhere other than, I'm sitting there trying to think it. But I do know that there was a columnist, a sports writer from the LA Times that wrote about the very first UFC. And in his article wrote mixed martial arts.

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:25

       Oh, so maybe it was him.

   20. BMBig John McCarthy12:27

       So I, well, you got John Peretti saying that he's, you know, he did it back in 1983. It's like, okay. Well, if no one's saying it, it doesn't mean shit.

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:36

       Right.

   22. BMBig John McCarthy12:36

       Okay. So the truth of the matter is-

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:39

       So Peretti might have said it in '83.

   24. BMBig John McCarthy12:41

       He might've said it-

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:41

       Right.

   26. BMBig John McCarthy12:41

       ... but it didn't mean anything.

   27. JRJoe Rogan12:43

       Right.

   28. BMBig John McCarthy12:43

       Because the fact of the matter is, and it doesn't matter what I wrote, what matters is when, you know, and when you joined it, when you joined the UFC, it was still considered no holds barred.

   29. JRJoe Rogan12:56

       Yeah.

   30. BMBig John McCarthy12:56

       NHB.
5. 14:23 – 18:12

   The first UFC rule sets: rounds, groin strikes, and what was actually illegal

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:23

      But there, you know, but back then it was, was there eye gouging ever?

   2. BMBig John McCarthy14:28

      No.

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:28

      Never.

   4. BMBig John McCarthy14:28

      The very first set of rules for the first UFC, and you know, and this is again, you know, there's people saying, "Oh, I came up with the five minute round." It's like, you're a fucking liar. I'm sorry.

   5. JRJoe Rogan14:37

      You are calling everybody outst-

   6. BMBig John McCarthy14:39

      Dude, you know what?

   7. JRJoe Rogan14:39

      ... John McCarthy.

   8. BMBig John McCarthy14:40

      I'm tired of freaking sitting there having people lie, because there's a lot of people out there that come up with stuff and you go, "Really? I can prove that wrong."

   9. JRJoe Rogan14:47

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BMBig John McCarthy14:49

       When you talk about five minute rounds, the very first UFC had three rules: no eye gouging, no biting, no groin strikes. Everything else was allowed.

   11. JRJoe Rogan14:59

       When did groin strikes come into the picture though? Because everybody remembers Keith Hackney and Jo San.

   12. BMBig John McCarthy15:02

       Okay, hold on. So that was-

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:04

       Old school.

   14. BMBig John McCarthy15:05

       That was UFC one, and it was unlimited five minute rounds.

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:11

       Wasn't, uh, Keith Hackney, Jo San, UFC-

   16. BMBig John McCarthy15:14

       UFC four.

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:14

       Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

   18. BMBig John McCarthy15:16

       This is, see now this is the one thing I'm going to get-

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:18

       So UFC one was unlimited.

   20. BMBig John McCarthy15:20

       Unlimited five minute rounds, but no fight-

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       Okay.

   22. BMBig John McCarthy15:22

       ... went the five minutes. The longest one was two minutes and 30 some seconds, per se.

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:25

       Right.

   24. BMBig John McCarthy15:26

       So after the first UFC, the semaphore looked and said, "Well, why are we having rounds when none of the fights are going that long anyways? And so we're just going to take the round thing away so we don't have any stop in the action."

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BMBig John McCarthy15:41

       And then there was certain fighters, Zane Frazier being, you know, the main one saying, "If I could have kneed the groin like I would in my system in what I do, it would have been a completely different fight."

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:52

       Ah.

   28. BMBig John McCarthy15:52

       And they went and said, "Okay, you can knee to the groin. You can hit to the groin." No eye gouging, no biting. That was UFC two.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       Wow.

   30. BMBig John McCarthy16:01

       That was the rules.
6. 18:12 – 34:01

   Why Rickson wasn’t in UFC 1 (control, branding, and the real reason)

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:12

      Okay. So you would know this then. What is the story about Rickson not being in the first UFC? 'Cause everybody knows-

   2. BMBig John McCarthy18:20

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:21

      ... everybody that knows jujitsu knows that Rickson is widely regarded as the greatest of all time. Like when it comes to the Gracies, when it comes to anybody of that era, Rickson was the fucking man.

   4. BMBig John McCarthy18:32

      He was.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:32

      Hands down, you ask anybody.

   6. BMBig John McCarthy18:34

      Still is the man.

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:35

      But isn't it crazy? He still is the man. But if- if you ask anybody, no one said, "Nah, it was Ricardo Liborio," or, "Nah, it was this guy." No, everybody went, "Rickson."

   8. BMBig John McCarthy18:44

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:44

      Hey, how fucking good do you have to be-

   10. BMBig John McCarthy18:47

       Exactly.

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:47

       ... where everybody agrees?

   12. BMBig John McCarthy18:49

       That's how lucky I was is I got to ... that he was my, he was my instructor.

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:52

       Isn't that crazy?

   14. BMBig John McCarthy18:53

       It's crazy because, you know, you look and you- And it- and this is the whole thing of- This is what people don't understand. And I hear guys now and it's like, "Goddamn, are you that stupid?" Because there's that, "Well, I think that, you know, so-and-so could beat him now." And it's like-

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:06

       It's a different story.

   16. BMBig John McCarthy19:06

       ... he's 60 years old.

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:07

       Well did- but not only that, it's a different world now.

   18. BMBig John McCarthy19:10

       Exactly.

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:10

       What- what Rickson was, he was so advanced in comparison to everybody else physically, because he had figured out yoga, he had figured out breathing and meditation and physical strength. He was incredibly flexible, like I'm s- I'm sure you've seen those exercises he did on the balancing beam where-

   20. BMBig John McCarthy19:26

       He's great.

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:27

       ... he's standing on a balancing beam with one leg doing a full split in the air, holding his foot up in the air, full split. And he- he had physical abilities that were, uh, you know, just unparalleled.

   22. BMBig John McCarthy19:37

       He had a muscular endurance. We used- he used to do just an exercise class, okay? Back, you know, in '91 or so. And he would do one-legged pikes, you know.

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:48

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BMBig John McCarthy19:48

       Squat down, one leg-

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:49

       Sure.

   26. BMBig John McCarthy19:49

       ... keep your leg out. He would do that. He had a muscular endurance. He would do f- 50 one-legged pikes. I mean, and I would d- I was dying. I- I mean, I was like-

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:00

       That's incredible. In a row?

   28. BMBig John McCarthy20:01

       In a row. He was n- he would just keep going and people- guys were falling out and I was falling out and everybody ... And he'd just keep going and going. You go, "What are you made of?"

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:10

       Well, he just-

   30. BMBig John McCarthy20:11

       You know?
7. 34:01 – 41:05

   Old-school jiu-jitsu lineages: Carlson, Rickson, Machados, and no-gi evolution

   1. JRJoe Rogan34:01

      So us, as jujitsu practitioners, I, I started doing jujitsu in '96 with Rickson. I started at Rickson's school-

   2. BMBig John McCarthy34:09

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan34:09

      ... on Pico.

   4. BMBig John McCarthy34:10

      In Pico.

   5. JRJoe Rogan34:10

      Yeah. Luis Heredia-

   6. BMBig John McCarthy34:11

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan34:11

      ... gave me my first class.

   8. BMBig John McCarthy34:12

      There you go.

   9. JRJoe Rogan34:13

      And, uh... But then I took a couple classes there, but then I found out that Carlson Gracie's was closer to my house.

   10. BMBig John McCarthy34:18

       In West LA.

   11. JRJoe Rogan34:19

       I didn't know jack shit. No, his was... Yeah, his was on, uh, Hawthorne, right off of, uh, right off of La Cienega.

   12. BMBig John McCarthy34:26

       Okay.

   13. JRJoe Rogan34:26

       So it was right down the street from The Comedy Store. So I was like, "Well, this is, like, near where I live." It was way... And I was like, "Gracie is Gracie." I didn't know there was any difference between the two of them. And then I... And Carlson Gracie was always on John Peretti's show. When John Peretti had that Extreme... What was it? Extreme Combat or-

   14. BMBig John McCarthy34:39

       Extreme Challenge.

   15. JRJoe Rogan34:40

       Extremes Challenge.

   16. BMBig John McCarthy34:40

       Yeah. Battlecade.

   17. JRJoe Rogan34:41

       Battlecade, right. And so I said, "Well, I'll just go train here." So I stopped training with literally the greatest of all time, you know, 'cause I didn't know any better.

   18. BMBig John McCarthy34:49

       But you went to training with the guy that would hold nothing back-

   19. JRJoe Rogan34:54

       Yeah.

   20. BMBig John McCarthy34:54

       ... that would teach you-

   21. JRJoe Rogan34:55

       That's true.

   22. BMBig John McCarthy34:55

       ... everything.

   23. JRJoe Rogan34:56

       But also, I went there while Vitor was still Victor.

   24. BMBig John McCarthy35:00

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan35:00

       He was Victor Gracie.

   26. BMBig John McCarthy35:02

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan35:02

       They called him Victor Gracie. In fact, like, when I first interviewed, I called him Victor a couple times 'cause we had always called him Victor.

   28. BMBig John McCarthy35:09

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan35:09

       And they were calling him Victor Gracie, but he was getting sued by... Rorion was saying that you can't use the Gracie name. And so he had to stop calling himself Gracie and he was going with Belfort, and Mario Sperry was there. There was like... I mean, that was, uh... Carlos Barreto was there.

   30. BMBig John McCarthy35:24

       Carlos is a great guy.
8. 41:05 – 53:44

   Wear-and-tear reality: Big John’s neck surgeries and training longevity

   1. JRJoe Rogan41:05

      You, you had some serious neck injuries, right?

   2. BMBig John McCarthy41:08

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan41:08

      And you're all fused up now, right?

   4. BMBig John McCarthy41:10

      Oh, I'm a mess. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan41:11

      What did, what did they do to you?

   6. BMBig John McCarthy41:12

      Well about, uh, I want to say four years ago, I had two discs replaced because I, uh, it was actually the disc was broken and it was pressing in on my spinal cord and I, I had only like about an eighth of an inch between it touching-

   7. JRJoe Rogan41:29

      Of disc left?

   8. BMBig John McCarthy41:29

      ... the other side. No, no, no. My spinal cord touching the other side.

   9. JRJoe Rogan41:33

      Oh.

   10. BMBig John McCarthy41:33

       Which would have been me going kachig and falling down and not getting back up.

   11. JRJoe Rogan41:37

       Whoa.

   12. BMBig John McCarthy41:38

       So they took and they, uh, they relieved the pressure, took that out, and put two fake discs and put this cage around it to, uh... 'Cause I didn't want to be fused. I was-

   13. JRJoe Rogan41:48

       Right.

   14. BMBig John McCarthy41:48

       ... panicked about... Look it, I need to be able to move my neck. You know, even for refereeing it was even more past the jujitsu, but I wanted to still be able to do things and rolling and stuff. And then, uh, I got hurt in July of last year bad. And it was... It wasn't like some- you know, someone meant to do it. I was training somebody and having them put a darce choke on me. It was no big deal. But they were doing it wrong as I'm watching them, so I get down and said, "Look it, put it on me. Okay, here, put this here."

   15. JRJoe Rogan42:17

       Yeah.

   16. BMBig John McCarthy42:17

       "No, no, I want your weight here. All right start putting pressure down." And I was probably in it for 90 seconds.... because I'm talking through it, you know?

   17. JRJoe Rogan42:24

       Right.

   18. BMBig John McCarthy42:24

       And I'm waiting for them to c- increase the pressure, increase it, make it tighter. And finally it gets to where, "Hey, it's tight." "Okay." And I tap. And he said, "Good. All right, you got it." And I didn't feel anything. But that broke the five through seven in my disc and pushed them out. The next day, I had-

   19. JRJoe Rogan42:40

       So you didn't feel it while it was happening?

   20. BMBig John McCarthy42:42

       I did not feel it when it happened.

   21. JRJoe Rogan42:43

       That's the scary shit about neck injuries.

   22. BMBig John McCarthy42:45

       It is. It's-

   23. JRJoe Rogan42:46

       It's like you don't think you really had an injury because you're like, "I don't remember anything happening."

   24. BMBig John McCarthy42:50

       There was no pain.

   25. JRJoe Rogan42:51

       Yeah.

   26. BMBig John McCarthy42:52

       I can re- I remember cracking when they're putting it on.

   27. JRJoe Rogan42:55

       Right.

   28. BMBig John McCarthy42:56

       I could ... 'Cause my neck is, you know, getting-

   29. JRJoe Rogan42:57

       But that's normal.

   30. BMBig John McCarthy42:58

       ... in a ... Yeah.
9. 53:44 – 57:40

   Perception vs. reality in MMA safety: gloves, politics, and John McCain era

   1. JRJoe Rogan53:44

      Well, let me tell you this, 'cause I'm beating a dead horse on this. Everybody who listens to this podcast knows I don't like gloves. I don't think-

   2. BMBig John McCarthy53:49

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan53:49

      ... guys should have to wear gloves. 'Cause I don't think, I think-

   4. BMBig John McCarthy53:51

      Tell me why you don't like gloves on.

   5. JRJoe Rogan53:52

      Because I think, why should you have padding on your knuckles that makes your knuckles more effective when you don't have it on your shins, you don't have it on your elbows, you don't have it on your knees.

   6. BMBig John McCarthy54:00

      Really?

   7. JRJoe Rogan54:00

      It doesn't make any sense. Your heel? Your heel is one of the hardest parts-

   8. BMBig John McCarthy54:03

      Hardest bones there is.

   9. JRJoe Rogan54:04

      ... of your fucking body. You, I mean, everybody's seen Edson Barboza-

   10. BMBig John McCarthy54:06

       Perception.

   11. JRJoe Rogan54:07

       ... Terry Adam. Fuck that perception. How is okay to shin somebody in the head?

   12. BMBig John McCarthy54:11

       Lookit, this is, this-

   13. JRJoe Rogan54:12

       W- is this perception to-

   14. BMBig John McCarthy54:13

       It's the reality.

   15. JRJoe Rogan54:14

       ... of the uninformed?

   16. BMBig John McCarthy54:15

       Back, okay, let's go back.

   17. JRJoe Rogan54:16

       Okay.

   18. BMBig John McCarthy54:16

       We're going back all the way to UFC VIII.

   19. JRJoe Rogan54:18

       This is a wayback machine.

   20. BMBig John McCarthy54:19

       UFC VIII was the first time that I ended up in court, before UFC VIII. Okay, because John McCain had come out with this whole thing, and, and everyone can sit there and say why John did it, and, "Oh-"

   21. JRJoe Rogan54:31

       Budweiser.

   22. BMBig John McCarthy54:31

       Oh, my ... Thank you very much. You hit it right on the head.

   23. JRJoe Rogan54:34

       Budweiser was sponsoring boxing and-

   24. BMBig John McCarthy54:36

       Bingo.

   25. JRJoe Rogan54:37

       ... and, yeah, and he had a- (laughs)

   26. BMBig John McCarthy54:38

       Okay? You know, I hear all the stories. "Oh, no, John McCain did us a favor." Well, you weren't there at that time. He didn't do us any damn favors.

   27. JRJoe Rogan54:44

       They brought him in because they knew that they needed someone who was very respected-

   28. BMBig John McCarthy54:48

       Yep.

   29. JRJoe Rogan54:48

       ... to be against MMA.

   30. BMBig John McCarthy54:50

       Exactly. Well, you got to f- you got to look at the pay-per-views. The very first pay-per-view for the UFC, 87,000 buys. They were hoping for a home run at around 25. (whispers) They got 87,000. Second one, they were in the two hun- you know, 180-some thousand. Then 200,000, then 300,000.
10. 57:40 – 1:12:54

    The true origin of the 12–6 elbow ban (Unified Rules meeting story)

    1. JRJoe Rogan57:40

       But the elbow strike thing, let's go back to that, 'cause it-

    2. BMBig John McCarthy57:42

       That's all right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan57:43

       People don't ... We nev- we glossed over it.

    4. BMBig John McCarthy57:44

       I did a great segue there, man.

    5. JRJoe Rogan57:46

       You did.

    6. BMBig John McCarthy57:46

       Yeah. It's the first time I've ever done anything like that.

    7. JRJoe Rogan57:47

       Very good segue. The 12-6 elbow strike, was it because ... This is what I've always said, and I, I believe you're the one who told me this, that when the commissions were talking about techniques, they had seen, like, those karate guys on ESPN at 1:00 in the morning breaking bricks with their elbows.

    8. BMBig John McCarthy58:04

       (laughs)

    9. JRJoe Rogan58:04

       And they're like, "There's no way you could allow that strike, because that strike-"

    10. BMBig John McCarthy58:08

        Oh, it's dangerous.

    11. JRJoe Rogan58:08

        "... would be too deadly." Was that what happened?

    12. BMBig John McCarthy58:10

        Close.

    13. JRJoe Rogan58:11

        Close.

    14. BMBig John McCarthy58:11

        Lookit, when we talk about commissions, the o- there was only a c- a couple of commissions at the writing of the unified rules as far as when we came, you know, to get it ag- That was back in April of 2001. All right? And New Jersey, we started talking about the UFC was not the first, you know, uh-

    15. JRJoe Rogan58:30

        Show in New Jersey.

    16. BMBig John McCarthy58:30

        ... show to go there. But New Jersey, after they had the IFC and then the UFC and then they had a couple other small shows. Ring of Fire starts to come in-

    17. JRJoe Rogan58:39

        Mm-hmm.

    18. BMBig John McCarthy58:39

        ... and everyone has their own rules. The UFC had their own rules, IFC had their own rules, Ring of Fire wants to do their own rules, and New Jersey was like, "We can't have these people coming in and giving us what their rules are." We, if the, if we're gonna do this as a sport, we're gonna do this under our rules. And, okay, what we're gonna do is we're gonna bring people together to create those rules, people that, you know, supposedly know. What the, who they really invited, other than, you know ... I think you had the Mohegan Sun as far as the tribal commission come down, they were part of it. New Jersey has a commission, and you had Mark Rattner on a conference call. He was not there. But it was promoters-

    19. JRJoe Rogan59:19

        And this is before Rattner worked for the UFC.

    20. BMBig John McCarthy59:20

        This is long before this-

    21. JRJoe Rogan59:21

        Mark was working for the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

    22. BMBig John McCarthy59:22

        Mark was working for the Nevada State Athletic Commission. He's the executive director. And they bring in all of these promoters, and the promoters were King of the Cage, Terry Trebelkok. You had Dana White, Lorenzo Fertitta, John McCarthy, Joe Silva, and Jeff Blatnick from the UFC. You had people from Pride, Yuki Kondo and, uh-... Khanda or whatever and, uh, Hideki, I can't remember his name, and you had Paul Smith, you had a couple, but that was it. That was the people there. And the people that were really talking the most were, was me and a doctor named Dom Colletta from New Jersey. He was brought in as the medical advisor for the State of New Jersey. And when it came to elbows, they, they, they tried to get rid of elbows. That was their big thing. And I was s- oh, I was sitting there trying to combat what they were saying, because even in New Jersey at the time, they had Muay Thai, and so they had elbows that were allowed in this form. I said, "Look it." And, and Jeff and I had put together a CD at the time, you know, you had CDs with-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

        CD-ROM.

    24. BMBig John McCarthy1:00:26

        Yeah, there you go, man.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

        Make it on a computer.

    26. BMBig John McCarthy1:00:28

        And, uh, it was ... 'Cause I knew they were gonna attack throws, because that was what made Larry Hazzard ... You had Tito Ortiz fought Evan Tanner, and he picks him up in a body lock and he brings him down and he knocks him out. And Larry Hazzard went like (heart beating) his heart started going. He's like, "Oh, we don't like that." And so I knew they were gonna attack throws. And, um, so I took, with Jeff, put together all of these throws from the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. Here's all your throws from judo. Here's all your throws from Greco Roman wre- and god bless Karelin, because he picks people up and drops (laughs) him on their head and it's legal. Okay? And I had all these throws from freestyle wrestling, Greco Roman wrestling, judo, with all of these Olympic athletes picking somebody up and them falling on their head, being tossed on their head. And that's what saved the throws. And what we came up with was, look, what we don't want is someone being able to control another human being and purposely make a tent spike out of them and try to drive them down onto the mat on top of their heads with-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:33

        A pile driver.

    28. BMBig John McCarthy1:01:34

        Exactly. So they-

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:34

        Like Bob Sapp did to Minotauro-

    30. BMBig John McCarthy1:01:37

        I- in Pride-

Episode duration: 2:26:12