JRE MMA Show #26 with Big John McCarthy

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (knocking) Five, four, three,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (knocking) Five, four, three, two, one. Boom, and we're live with the OG of OGs.

   2. BMBig John McCarthy0:08

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      If there's more of an OG MMA character than you, uh, I don't know who the fuck they would be.

   4. BMBig John McCarthy0:13

      Uh-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Who's more ... Who's m- ... Hoist Gracie and you.

   6. BMBig John McCarthy0:15

      Hoist Gracie.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      That's about as OG as it gets.

   8. BMBig John McCarthy0:17

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Right?

   10. BMBig John McCarthy0:18

       You w- You know what that means?

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       What does that mean?

   12. BMBig John McCarthy0:20

       You're both fucking old.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       We're all old.

   14. BMBig John McCarthy0:22

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:22

       Yeah, we're old.

   16. BMBig John McCarthy0:22

       Dude.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:23

       I was watching the ... There was a ... The other day was the 20th anniversary of Dan Henderson's first UFC appearance.

   18. BMBig John McCarthy0:28

       Oh my god.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       And there's me interviewing him afterwards. I'm like, "Who's that fucking little kid-"

   20. BMBig John McCarthy0:32

       Uh-huh.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       "... interviewing Dan Henn- ... Just, who is Dan Henderson-"

   22. BMBig John McCarthy0:34

       I remember.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       "... pretending to be Dan Henderson?"

   24. BMBig John McCarthy0:35

       UFC 12.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       Yeah. Dothan, Alabama.

   26. BMBig John McCarthy0:38

       You ... Well, you got ch- ... You got transferred.

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Yeah.

   28. BMBig John McCarthy0:40

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       Well, we were supposed to go up to Buffalo and then they-

   30. BMBig John McCarthy0:42

       Niagara, go down to Dothan.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Okay, hold on. So…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      into the picture though? Because everybody remembers Keith Hackney and Jo San.

   2. BMBig John McCarthy15:02

      Okay, hold on. So that was-

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:04

      Old school.

   4. BMBig John McCarthy15:05

      That was UFC one, and it was unlimited five minute rounds.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:11

      Wasn't, uh, Keith Hackney, Jo San, UFC-

   6. BMBig John McCarthy15:14

      UFC four.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:14

      Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

   8. BMBig John McCarthy15:16

      This is, see now this is the one thing I'm going to get-

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:18

      So UFC one was unlimited.

   10. BMBig John McCarthy15:20

       Unlimited five minute rounds, but no fight-

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       Okay.

   12. BMBig John McCarthy15:22

       ... went the five minutes. The longest one was two minutes and 30 some seconds, per se.

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:25

       Right.

   14. BMBig John McCarthy15:26

       So after the first UFC, the semaphore looked and said, "Well, why are we having rounds when none of the fights are going that long anyways? And so we're just going to take the round thing away so we don't have any stop in the action."

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       Mm-hmm.

   16. BMBig John McCarthy15:41

       And then there was certain fighters, Zane Frazier being, you know, the main one saying, "If I could have kneed the groin like I would in my system in what I do, it would have been a completely different fight."

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:52

       Ah.

   18. BMBig John McCarthy15:52

       And they went and said, "Okay, you can knee to the groin. You can hit to the groin." No eye gouging, no biting. That was UFC two.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       Wow.

   20. BMBig John McCarthy16:01

       That was the rules.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       Wow. So no eye gouging, no biting, and no time limits, UFC two.

   22. BMBig John McCarthy16:07

       No time limits.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       Wow. It's just so crazy to think that this is a giant sport. It's on Fox, it's on ESPN, it's a huge pay-per-view for us. You hear about it all the time. You have a, a real group of experts wearing suits and ties discussing techniques.

   24. BMBig John McCarthy16:23

       (laughs) Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       I mean, when you sit down and watch the Fox panel and you see like Tyron Woodley and Michael Bisping and Paul Felder and everybody sitting there discussing technique and strategy and, and-

   26. BMBig John McCarthy16:33

       And they need to thank people from the past that got them there.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:36

       Crazy. Yeah. I mean, you go back and watch some of the old school shit where-

   28. BMBig John McCarthy16:39

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:39

       ... the sumo guy got his, his tooth kicked into the stands.

   30. BMBig John McCarthy16:42

       First fight. That got me my job.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. BMBig John McCarthy30:00

      good-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      Yeah.

   3. BMBig John McCarthy30:00

      ... on the ground.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:01

      Yeah.

   5. BMBig John McCarthy30:02

      And, you know, it's, uh, it's, it's so hard to get people to realize how good certain people are, you know, and just their... uh, you know. Obviously, if you get hit and your brain's not working, 'cause your brain is everything-

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:15

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BMBig John McCarthy30:15

      ... that can be taken away, to a point, from you. But if your brain is there and you have that submission ability-You're always dangerous.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:23

      Yeah. It's, uh, the- it's just, uh, it's, to me, the most enjoyable thing to watch because it's so complex, 'cause there's so many variables and it's so interesting. There's so much going on in a fight. There's just so much happening, so many possibilities, you know? And for you as a referee, I mean, you've had... I mean, I always say I had the best seat in the house next to you.

   9. BMBig John McCarthy30:45

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:46

       'Cause I did. I mean-

   11. BMBig John McCarthy30:47

       I never got to sit down. Never.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:49

       Well, it's better.

   13. BMBig John McCarthy30:50

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:50

       You could get a ro- I mean, you could... You were looking at the chokes.

   15. BMBig John McCarthy30:52

       Oh, I got to move to all the best places. Oh, yeah, man.

   16. JRJoe Rogan30:53

       You were looking at a choke from a foot away.

   17. BMBig John McCarthy30:55

       Oh, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:55

       I mean, you were, you were there for all of it, man.

   19. BMBig John McCarthy30:58

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan30:58

       You got to be there whi- I mean, uh, d- you're the only one, really the only one to truly experience those fights without some sort of a barrier in between them.

   21. BMBig John McCarthy31:07

       True. I'm gonna go back real quick for you.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:10

       Okay.

   23. BMBig John McCarthy31:10

       So it, so it goes, how did Rickson not get to fight in UFC 1? That was the question-

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:15

       That's the question.

   25. BMBig John McCarthy31:15

       ... and we didn't answer it.

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:16

       The question... Yeah.

   27. BMBig John McCarthy31:17

       So-

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:17

       We have two questions to answer this.

   29. BMBig John McCarthy31:18

       Okay.

   30. JRJoe Rogan31:18

       12 to six elbow.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Guy's stacking you up…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      going on."

   2. BMBig John McCarthy45:00

      Guy's stacking you up and pushing.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:01

      Stacking you. Yup.

   4. BMBig John McCarthy45:02

      Yup.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:02

      There's so much going on with your back. And very few people do anything to strengthen their back. I implore people that are doing jujitsu, I want you to look at two things. Three things. One, the Reverse Hyper machine. That's that Louie Simmons machine. I'm sure you know what, about that.

   6. BMBig John McCarthy45:18

      Yeah. Outstanding.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:18

      That, that fucking thing is so good. Dr. Neil Riordan, the, uh, stem cell doctor that I had on before, he was having some back issues. He just sent me a picture of, uh, the ... one of them that he has now in his place after he came here and saw mine. He got one of those Reverse Hypers, put it in his office, and he's like, "Jesus Christ, this thing has changed my body. It's like changed my back. It's, it's helped me so much. It's incredible." That thing's amazing. And then there's a thing called the Iron Neck. The Iron Neck, which is, uh, just a phenomenal training tool for your neck, gives you more range of motion and, and strengthens your neck. P- so many guys just don't do that. You just train. You just always train. You gotta treat your body like it's ... Like you are ... You're in the pit stop and you're in a fucking NASCAR crew. You know? And you gotta fix stuff and replace stuff and make sure everything's tuned up and tightened up. And treat your body like ... You gotta strengthen all that shit.

   8. BMBig John McCarthy46:05

      Question, were you, were you that way when you were 25 though?

   9. JRJoe Rogan46:08

      No, I was a retard.

   10. BMBig John McCarthy46:09

       There you go. That's me. (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:09

       I'm stupid still. (laughs) I can't believe how stupid I am.

   12. BMBig John McCarthy46:12

       And that-

   13. JRJoe Rogan46:12

       It's amazing how I've gotten so far.

   14. BMBig John McCarthy46:13

       ... that's the difference, is when, you know, you ... I don't care.

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:17

       You think you're invulnerable.

   16. BMBig John McCarthy46:18

       You're ... Yeah, dude. Absolutely. You're like-

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:20

       Yeah.

   18. BMBig John McCarthy46:21

       "No one can do anything to you. You know, you can't be beat. You, uh, you can put up with anything."

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:26

       Yup.

   20. BMBig John McCarthy46:26

       And as you get older-

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:27

       And you get injured, you just go, "Fuck it. Who cares? I'll just-"

   22. BMBig John McCarthy46:29

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan46:29

       "... I'll train the other side."

   24. BMBig John McCarthy46:30

       Exactly.

   25. JRJoe Rogan46:30

       "I'll just, uh, I'll go light." And you never go light.

   26. BMBig John McCarthy46:32

       Yup.

   27. JRJoe Rogan46:33

       Yeah. And then you wind up having all these injuries that never really heal themselves. You know, like, one of the best things that ever happened to me, training, was l- something actually breaking. Like, I'd have an actual torn ACL. Well, now I can't train for six months, for sure. So now it gives everything a chance to recuperate and actually heal. And like, "Oh look, my elbow doesn't hurt anymore."

   28. BMBig John McCarthy46:50

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan46:51

       You know? It's like, there's all these things. Like, I went ... Uh, I told you I got stem cell shots in my shoulder. The, the guy goes, "You had a shoulder separation at some point in time." I'm like, "Really?" I don't even know.

   30. BMBig John McCarthy47:01

       Yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:05:51

   CD-ROM. …

   1. BMBig John McCarthy1:00:00

      brought in as the medical advisor for the State of New Jersey. And when it came to elbows, they, they, they tried to get rid of elbows. That was their big thing. And I was s- oh, I was sitting there trying to combat what they were saying, because even in New Jersey at the time, they had Muay Thai, and so they had elbows that were allowed in this form. I said, "Look it." And, and Jeff and I had put together a CD at the time, you know, you had CDs with-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

      CD-ROM.

   3. BMBig John McCarthy1:00:26

      Yeah, there you go, man.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

      Make it on a computer.

   5. BMBig John McCarthy1:00:28

      And, uh, it was ... 'Cause I knew they were gonna attack throws, because that was what made Larry Hazzard ... You had Tito Ortiz fought Evan Tanner, and he picks him up in a body lock and he brings him down and he knocks him out. And Larry Hazzard went like (heart beating) his heart started going. He's like, "Oh, we don't like that." And so I knew they were gonna attack throws. And, um, so I took, with Jeff, put together all of these throws from the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. Here's all your throws from judo. Here's all your throws from Greco Roman wre- and god bless Karelin, because he picks people up and drops (laughs) him on their head and it's legal. Okay? And I had all these throws from freestyle wrestling, Greco Roman wrestling, judo, with all of these Olympic athletes picking somebody up and them falling on their head, being tossed on their head. And that's what saved the throws. And what we came up with was, look, what we don't want is someone being able to control another human being and purposely make a tent spike out of them and try to drive them down onto the mat on top of their heads with-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:33

      A pile driver.

   7. BMBig John McCarthy1:01:34

      Exactly. So they-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:34

      Like Bob Sapp did to Minotauro-

   9. BMBig John McCarthy1:01:37

      I- in Pride-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

       ... in Pride-

   11. BMBig John McCarthy1:01:38

       But that's a different set of rules.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:38

       ... and fucked his neck up for a long time.

   13. BMBig John McCarthy1:01:41

       Yes. And that's, you know-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:42

       Maybe forever.

   15. BMBig John McCarthy1:01:43

       That was what we were looking at. And so that's how we came up with, you know, no spiking. And spiking, I knew what it was because I worked out the language there, 'cause I was sitting there saying, "Well, hold on. Time out." You want to, you want ... I'm the one that's gotta come up with and say, "This is legal. This is not." So we do this. If someone takes an, you know, a guy shoots a lazy double. He sh- brings his head to the center, picks him up, his legs either go straight up or, you know, his legs are out like this, and you purposely hold him there and try to drive him straight down, that's a spike. That's illegal. If I take and I pick you up as a suplex and I bring you up over the top, I can bring you down any- as long as there is an arc to it. Any arc makes the throw legal. So Rampage Jackson picks up Ryan Bader and spins him and brings him down straight on his head, legal. And it makes it quick and easy for me as the referee. I see the arc, it's legal. I don't see an arc and I see him holding him and bring him straight down, now I know it's illegal. And so I was trying to make things as easy as I could. When it came to the elbows, what they were trying to do is take away all elbows. And I go, "Look it, you have elbows in Muay Thai." Elbows, every time you take something away, you are changing the sport and making it to where it's harder to actually have action, because you take away elbows, I grab wrists, and if I'm good at grabbing wrists, I can hold wrists for a while and, and I can't do anything. I've got to pull my hand out. Where if you grab my wrist and I'm Jon Jones and I take and I roll that elbow over and boom and bring it down, you let go of my wrists because you're being attacked. And so they looked at it and said, and the, the, Dom Colletta being the doctor said, he goes, "Look it, yeah, I understand what he's saying." He says, "I, I have a problem with one." And it came from Gan McGee versus the guy named Brad Gab- uh, Brad, Brad Gabriel from the IFC, the very first show they had. Gan McGee, you know, you remember, six foot 11. You know, at the time, in this show, about 335 pounds, and he's fighting a guy named Brad Gabriel who's six one, 210, 215 pounds. And Gan from, you know, Brad Gabriel is trying to get ahold of Gan just to survive. And Gan is taking his arm and he's boom, boom, boom, and he's bringing it straight down on top of Brad Gabriel's head and then he gets his back and he does the same thing, like the old Brazilian style of bringing-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:04:10

       Mm-hmm.

   17. BMBig John McCarthy1:04:10

       ... shots to the back of the head. And he said, he goes, "I, I've s- I can't have that." He said, "I've seen, I've seen them break big blocks of ice like that. That's a dangerous elbow. We can't have that." And I started to combat it and Lorenzo Fertitta looks at me and he goes, "Jon, let it go. It's stupid."

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:04:27

       Wow.

   19. BMBig John McCarthy1:04:28

       And I go, "Yes sir, boss." And I backed away from it, and so that became-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:04:32

       So that's the 12 to six elbow.

   21. BMBig John McCarthy1:04:33

       That's the 12 to six elbow, and the whole thing with the whole positioning of it, 12 to six, I came up with that there saying, "All right, let me just make this clear, then. So we're saying that if my hand comes straight up and straight down, that's what's illegal, so 12 o'clock to six o'clock. But if I'm in side control and I bring my arm like this, we're okay with it." And they go, "Yes."

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:04:54

       And one to seven's okay?

   23. BMBig John McCarthy1:04:55

       (laughs) One to seven, 11:30 to (laughs) you know, all that stuff.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:05:00

       Sort of, 11:30's pushing it.

   25. BMBig John McCarthy1:05:02

       It's, you're pushing it, but ... And the, the problem was, see, I was there, I understood everything, and I came out and started teaching classes and stuff, and if, if you listened to me, you knew what it was.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:05:13

       Right.

   27. BMBig John McCarthy1:05:13

       But other than that, you're getting, oh, there's a paper written. And so you're reading the paper and it says, "No downward elbow strikes." And that's not what the rule was.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:05:23

       Right.

   29. BMBig John McCarthy1:05:24

       So we had actually had, you know, season two of The Ultimate Fighter, Joe Stevenson is gonna end up, he's in the semifinals. I had done his earlier match, he had fought, uh, Marcus Davis. And I'd went over the rules with him, and so, you know, when, when we talk about going over rules with fighters, there's a lot that I say. You know, people think that, you know, "Oh, you know, no, no, no, no, no, you know, no, don't, don't pull hair, don't do this." You don't do that.But I'd gone over things and explained to him, "Yes." He- 'cause he asked me, he says, "In the guard, can I do this elbow?" "Absolutely."

Episode duration: 2:26:12