JRE MMA Show #27 with Robin Black

Joe Rogan 0:02 Four, three, two, one. (table slams) Robben Black, ladies and gentlemen.

Robin Black 0:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:09 What's up, buddy?

Robin Black 0:10 Hey, man. It's great to see you.

Joe Rogan 0:11 Are you fresh back from Singapore?

Robin Black 0:12 I am. Yeah, I was in Singapore like 48 hours ago.

Joe Rogan 0:15 Did they make that special shiny silver one for you?

Robin Black 0:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:18 Because that looks like that was designed for you.

Robin Black 0:20 No. It's ... I mean, yeah-

Joe Rogan 0:22 (laughs)

Robin Black 0:22 ... it does kinda look like it's designed for me, which is why I wanted it, you know?

Joe Rogan 0:25 Yeah.

Robin Black 0:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:25 It's a Rock & Roll ONE Championship-

Robin Black 0:27 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:27 ... ONE FC Championship. So what's it like over there, man?

Robin Black 0:30 Man.

Joe Rogan 0:30 So what ... Let me explain to everybody. ONE FC is like the Asian version of the UFC. It's a gigantic-

Robin Black 0:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:36 ... organization that has been going on for how long now?

Robin Black 0:38 Uh, 2011.

Joe Rogan 0:39 So solid seven years.

Robin Black 0:41 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:41 And really high-level fights over there.

Robin Black 0:44 Amazing, amazing fights. Singapore itself is wild. So I went over there to chat with them. So Chatri, uh, Sityodtong runs it. And he and I had been chatting, and, and I love kinda w- how they see martial arts. So they don't call it even FC anymore. It's just ONE Championship.

Joe Rogan 1:01 Oh.

Robin Black 1:01 They don't even use the word fighting really. It's martial arts. And the way I see it and the way I study martial arts and share it is an art form-

Joe Rogan 1:11 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:11 ... like painting or yoga or, you know, things, things of that nature. Less spectacle. That's always how I've seen it and always how I love it, and that's how they see it, and that's how they present it. And that's ... It's presented from this sort of inspirational, own your history kinda way in Asia.

Joe Rogan 1:27 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:27 And that was what attracted me to them right away. I mean, it's, it's c- definitely an art form. It's values-based, like they're kinda seeking to inspire people through these athletes and artists. It's pretty fucking cool.

Joe Rogan 1:39 Really?

Robin Black 1:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40 So what, what's motivating them to take this, uh, sort of radical approach?

Robin Black 1:45 So the ... It's wild that you say that because to me this is the approach.

Joe Rogan 1:51 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:51 So I think what we do or the way that we present it in North America is radical. I think martial arts is an art form. Martial arts is this inspiring thing. I mean, you take, say, for example, Aung Lwang San. He is their 185 pound and 205 pound champion. He's from Myanmar. They have never had a world champion in any sport ever in their history. I don't think they've had a gold medalist fr- in the Olympics. They've never had that. This guy's a two division champion. That ... Well, and I, when I talked to Chatri about it, and he was talking sort of about why he sees it this way and why he's proud to, to present it this way, he's like, he knows without question that there are kids ... And he won his 205 pound title in Myanmar, in a stadium in Myanmar. And he said he knows without question there's a kid in there gonna become a lawyer one day because of that. And they can feel it, and it's real. It's not like, it's not like a marketing strategy.

Joe Rogan 2:46 Right.

Robin Black 2:46 Like this is how they see martial arts. And it's how martial arts is viewed in Asia. Martial arts, I ge- I get to travel so much now. It's viewed different in Russia. It's viewed different in Brazil. All over the world.

Joe Rogan 2:57 How's it, how's it viewed in Russia?

Robin Black 2:58 Russia is wild, man. I've, I got to work for, uh, ACB. You know ACB?

Joe Rogan 3:03 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 3:03 It's awesome.

Joe Rogan 3:04 It's another-

Robin Black 3:04 Yeah. Another, another-

Joe Rogan 3:04 ... big organization.

Robin Black 3:05 ... big organization. So in Russia it's very masculine. And it's about, about victory and about showing your power and your strength.

Joe Rogan 3:13 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 3:13 And it real ... And, and Russia is like that. You know?

Joe Rogan 3:16 Yeah.

Robin Black 3:16 It's a reflection kind of of Russia.

Joe Rogan 3:19 Yeah. Um, the martial art thing I absolutely agree with you on, that it is an art form. But I also think it's a fight. Like Gilbert Melendez versus Diego Sanchez.

Robin Black 3:30 Yeah. Yep.

Joe Rogan 3:30 That's an art form, but it's a fight.

Robin Black 3:33 Yes.

Joe Rogan 3:33 That was, that was a fucking wild-

Robin Black 3:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:36 ... fight. And there's no way that's just art. That's, that's art and a fight.

Robin Black 3:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:43 It's both things.

Robin Black 3:44 But a fight is art.

Joe Rogan 3:45 In a way.

Robin Black 3:45 It's expression of who you are.

Joe Rogan 3:46 Right. It is in a way.

Robin Black 3:47 You know?

Joe Rogan 3:48 Right.

Robin Black 3:48 It's an expression of, of your personality, your individuality-

Joe Rogan 3:51 But it's-

Robin Black 3:51 ... your heart, your fearlessness.

Joe Rogan 3:52 100%, but it's a fight. I'm not scared of the word fight.

Robin Black 3:55 No, I'm not either. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:56 Like, I like it. I like that word.

Robin Black 3:58 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:58 Like, it's ... But that it, it, it is an art form.

Robin Black 4:01 Yes.

Joe Rogan 4:01 Fights are art.

Robin Black 4:02 Yes, definitely.

Joe Rogan 4:03 I mean, like, Anderson Silva's second fight with Chael Sonnen. The way he landed that knee to the body on the ground.

Robin Black 4:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:09 I mean, that is just art.

Robin Black 4:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:10 That's art.

Robin Black 4:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:11 You know? I mean, if you, you go back to Lyoto Machida just landing that front kick on Vitor Belfort, that's art.

Robin Black 4:17 Yeah. Big time.

Joe Rogan 4:18 Es- es- especially for someone who practices martial arts, you see the beauty in that. You're like, "Oh." It's like a flower blossoming or just a-

Robin Black 4:26 Big time.

Joe Rogan 4:26 ... sunrise or just something perfect.

Robin Black 4:29 The impossibility of it is what's so beautiful.

Joe Rogan 4:32 Yeah.

Robin Black 4:32 Like these guys are so unwilling partners.

Joe Rogan 4:36 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 4:36 And they have such like a desire to accomplish what they want to accomplish. To kick that guy in the face from that position with ... Vitor w- has a lifetime of this.

Joe Rogan 4:47 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 4:47 A lifetime of being able to not let you do that. And for you to first be willing to be free enough to try it-

Joe Rogan 4:55 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 4:55 ... you know, and, and to, to express it in that moment, it is definitely art. But I, I'm with you. Fight doesn't intimidate me a- at all. It ... You know, a fight is a beautiful thing. A fight is ... We fight for things all the time.

Joe Rogan 5:08 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 5:08 You know? It's a metaphor for life itself when you fight.

Joe Rogan 5:11 I think people, rightly so, are concerned with the idea of b- violence against someone who's an unwilling participant. And that's how they think of fighting. They think of it as this thing that they want nothing to do with. They don't want any violence in their life. They don't want anybody to hurt them. And I completely understand that. I, I, I understand that position. But that's ... It's not what it is when it's a competition. I mean, t- it's, I ... It's a tired expression because I've said it too many times, but my perception of what fighting is, is high level problem solving with dire physical consequences.

Robin Black 5:45 Mm-hmm. Big time.

Joe Rogan 5:45 And-

Robin Black 5:46 And the physical consequences are what make it so special.

Joe Rogan 5:50 Yes.

Robin Black 5:51 You know? No question.

Joe Rogan 5:52 Yeah.

Robin Black 5:52 No question.

Joe Rogan 5:53 Yeah.

Robin Black 5:53 Um-

Joe Rogan 5:54 The hard times make the good times better.

Robin Black 5:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:56 You know? And the, the, the p- the possibility that bad things can happen to you and do sometimes happen, even to the great ones. You know what I mean? You see great fighters who have been KO'd and come back. And, you know, there's ... That's a ... There's something about that where you realize like, hey, even Fedor can get knocked out.

Robin Black 6:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:13 You know what I mean? Hey, even, you know, Anderson Silva-... can get, play cocky and get caught by that Chris Weidman left hook. I mean, this is just-

Robin Black 6:21 Huh.

Joe Rogan 6:21 This is just the game.

Robin Black 6:22 And, you know, I think in Asia in particular, but there's different pockets of, of how these, this is viewed, and how the philosophy of, of connecting to martial arts and fighting is viewed. And in Asia, you would see, a certain amount of the fighters would see being ... Losing badly is a, a opportunity, a chance, because to come back and win again, or to come back and show that you're able-

Joe Rogan 6:49 Hmm.

Robin Black 6:49 ... you, you were given the gift of trying and failing. You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 6:53 Mm-hmm. I do know what you mean.

Robin Black 6:54 You know?

Joe Rogan 6:55 Yeah. That's a great way to approach it. It's a great way to look at it. You know? I mean, that, that, uh, there really is a lesson that the average person can take in their life. Like, every time a person does have a bad thing happen to them, it's an, that, that terrible feeling is an opportunity to rise from the ashes.

Robin Black 7:12 Yeah. And winning when it's ... When you're just winning at everything and things come easily to you, that, I'm sure, still feels good. But when you've gone through really hard times, or when you've been challenged by something, or you drop lower, the high of the success is so much higher. It's so much of a longer journey. Personally, uh, like when we've spoke before and when we talked about, um, uh, CM Punk, when he was fighting the first time-

Joe Rogan 7:38 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 7:38 ... I was like, "This is stupid." You know? Uh, this guy is, is pushing, stacking himself into a position to try to not fail by making the challenge so difficult that even if he fails, he don't really. But this is fully different now.

Joe Rogan 7:51 Yeah.

Robin Black 7:51 Like now, I'm s- I'm cheering for him because he was humiliated. Like, he was ... He didn't just fail. He was humiliated. He, he ... In front of everybody, was shown to be ... You know, people would judge him as weak or, uh, y- people ... The judgment that he would feel is bad. And he said, "I'll go do it again." He ... Uh, we are now in a s- completely different context, because that's a guy who epically failed in front of everybody and then dealt with that, and now says, "I will try the journey again and this will make me a better person." And I now, I fully endorse this. I'm cheering for him now.

Joe Rogan 8:28 Well, he's now fighting a fighter who's commensurate in talent.

Robin Black 8:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:31 I mean, and there's nothing wrong with being a beginner in martial arts. But there's something wrong with thinking that you can be a beginner and fight Mickey Gall.

Robin Black 8:39 Big time. As-

Joe Rogan 8:40 It's a f- It was a foolish venture. And I, I, I, wh- my approach to it was this is gonna be a very good lesson for people that are fans of positive thinking-

Robin Black 8:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:51 ... and they think that's enough. That shit is not enough. Y- if you weigh 110 pounds, you can positive think your way t- to the bank. Francis Ngannou's still gonna punch your brains out. There's just no way around it. And a, a guy who has really very little experience-

Robin Black 9:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:07 ... in martial arts and has rudimentary control of his body ... I mean, that's-

Robin Black 9:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:12 ... what I saw when I saw him training.

Robin Black 9:14 100%.

Joe Rogan 9:14 When I saw him training, I was like, "Oh, my God."

Robin Black 9:16 He didn't belong there.

Joe Rogan 9:17 "This guy is gonna get killed." Exactly.

Robin Black 9:17 He did not belong there-

Joe Rogan 9:19 Exactly.

Robin Black 9:19 ... in that context. And I-

Joe Rogan 9:20 But he belongs here.

Robin Black 9:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:22 Yeah.

Robin Black 9:22 And that's ... And c- everything's contextual. Like, just because I thought that was stupid, it was stupid.

Joe Rogan 9:28 Right.

Robin Black 9:28 It was stupid. But that doesn't mean in this context I can't look and go, "There's a guy who didn't need to b- uh, he doesn't need to come back. He doesn't need to try again. He doesn't need to go into the gym." And I've been there. You're in the gym and everyone's going, "Oh, man, you did, you did good." I didn't do good. I fucking failed-

Joe Rogan 9:45 Right.

Robin Black 9:45 ... miserably in front of everybody.

Joe Rogan 9:46 Right.

Robin Black 9:46 And then show up there-

Joe Rogan 9:47 Right.

Robin Black 9:47 ... clean the mats and work really hard and say like, "I'm gonna try it again." Uh, and yes, that fight still, him and this guy, still should take place somewhere else.

Joe Rogan 9:56 100%.

Robin Black 9:56 It should. I mean, w-

Joe Rogan 9:57 It shouldn't even be on a Tuesday night Contender's Show.

Robin Black 9:59 No. No, it shouldn't.

Joe Rogan 10:01 Should be in some amateur event somewhere.

Robin Black 10:03 100%.

Joe Rogan 10:03 I mean, 'cause th- that's really what they are. They're, they're guys learning how to compete.

Robin Black 10:08 Yeah. Um-

Joe Rogan 10:09 They're in the first fight in the pay-per-view.

Robin Black 10:11 Yeah, that's-

Joe Rogan 10:12 It's fucking crazy.

Robin Black 10:12 But that has nothing to do with them. That is a reflection-

Joe Rogan 10:15 Right.

Robin Black 10:15 ... on the company.

Joe Rogan 10:16 Yeah, 100% right.

Robin Black 10:16 That's a reflection on, on the choices that-

Joe Rogan 10:18 Yep.

Robin Black 10:18 ... that the machine makes. Um, and-

Joe Rogan 10:20 They probably also gave him a juicy contract.

Robin Black 10:22 Yes.

Joe Rogan 10:23 And ... You know?

Robin Black 10:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:23 In order to v- make that valid, or-

Robin Black 10:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:27 ... viable-

Robin Black 10:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 10:27 ... they have to make money off the guy.

Robin Black 10:29 Yeah, yeah. And but that, t- again, I think, it makes it, makes it deeper and harder and more chances to fail epically. And, and I lost twice in a row, and then still wanted to fight again, and still because it ... I really wanted to. And, and it was important to me, and it meant something to me, and I, I was going to change as a human being by doing it. And I was ridicu- I can relate to what he's going through. But I did it on a little show in, in Winnipeg, Manitoba. You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 10:56 Right, right, right.

Robin Black 10:56 I would never have put myself in that s- place to look bad. But here he is, and here it is, and I'm cheering for him as a s- or as a human being in a weird situation that has been put himself into a deep, dark, hard spot and saying, "My way out of this is to try really hard and really go in." And, and, uh, the chance ... All that, uh, I would want for him, if I knew him and he was my friend, is to fight your way through some adverse situations. To be able to be in it and find when it's hard, you discover, "F- yeah, I can handle when it's hard. I can, I can get up when I've been dropped," or, "I can fight through not being able to breathe." If he loses and does that, it will have been worth it for him. No matter how much ridicule he'll take-

Joe Rogan 11:40 It will.

Robin Black 11:40 ... it will have been worth it for him.

Joe Rogan 11:41 What was really weird watching him walk to the cage was that he was approaching it like a pro wrestling fight, 'cause he had done so many of these pro wrestling-

Robin Black 11:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:49 ... matches that he was walking to the cage with, like, pro-wrestling mannerisms and everything. And I, w- while I was watching this and I, you know, I did, like, an internal head shake.

Robin Black 11:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:58 Like, "Oh, fuck."

Robin Black 11:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:00 Like, this i- th- you can't ...It was a terrible idea.

Robin Black 12:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:04 Like whoever-

Robin Black 12:05 On everybody's part.

Joe Rogan 12:06 ... on his side-

Robin Black 12:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:07 ... said that he could fight Miki Gall, you're outta your fucking mind.

Robin Black 12:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:10 Watch that kid fight once. That kid is very good-

Robin Black 12:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:12 ... on the ground.

Robin Black 12:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:13 Very good.

Robin Black 12:14 And big and strong-

Joe Rogan 12:15 Yep.

Robin Black 12:15 ... and young.

Joe Rogan 12:16 Stand-up's not bad either.

Robin Black 12:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:17 You know, and he's tough as shit and he's smart-

Robin Black 12:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:19 ... he's clever, and he's mean.

Robin Black 12:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:21 He's a mean fucker.

Robin Black 12:23 And that is... At that stage he was maybe 1-0, I think, or maybe 2. But it's still the-

Joe Rogan 12:28 Right.

Robin Black 12:28 ... lowest level that there is in the entire elite world of fighting, not that-

Joe Rogan 12:32 It... It didn't matter.

Robin Black 12:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:33 It's the way he won.

Robin Black 12:34 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:35 Like, you saw it.

Robin Black 12:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:36 You saw the way he took that guy's back- Mm-hmm. ... and the way he sinks hooks in, like-

Robin Black 12:40 And when... When he was on top-

Joe Rogan 12:41 Yep.

Robin Black 12:41 ... and just delivered with like-

Joe Rogan 12:43 Nasty.

Robin Black 12:43 Yeah. Re-

Joe Rogan 12:43 Just nasty.

Robin Black 12:43 But that's how it... That's... And you're 100% right. What... If somebody's watching that, that is the reality of thinking, "I won't really wor-... I- I'll put myself in a situation that I can't win, but I've got guts and heart and I believe I'm gonna do it." You get the metaphorical version of that punch in the face if you go through life like that.

Joe Rogan 13:02 Yes, you do. And you know what? You shouldn't do it in fighting because you don't want those punches in the face if you can't avoid them. Mm-hmm. Like if y-... If you're in a situation where you're... You wanna prove your toughness and you wanna b- battle against someone who's of your skill level and tryna figure your way through the maze of this contest, that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is getting punched in the face unnecessarily. Yeah. And when you fight... Uh, m- in my opinion, when I looked at that fight, I was like, "Miki Gall's gonna smash him." This is just how it's going to go. Mm-hmm. There's very few fights where I could tell you this is absolutely gonna happen. Like here's a perfect example. Ro-... Uh, Rafael dos Anjos, uh, against, uh, Colby Covington. I don't know what the fuck's gonna happen.

Robin Black 13:42 No? No idea.

Joe Rogan 13:43 I don't know. No? They're gonna get in there, they're gonna throw down, let's see.

Robin Black 13:46 Y-

Joe Rogan 13:46 (laughs) Let's see. Miki Gall versus- (coughs) ... you know, um, I forgot-

Robin Black 13:50 Phil.

Joe Rogan 13:50 CM. Phil. CM Punk. What's his real name? Phil... Phil... Jackson? No. (laughs) Hardman? (laughs) What is his fucking name?

Robin Black 13:57 Uh, Phil, uh, uh-

Joe Rogan 13:58 Whatever.

Robin Black 13:59 What... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:00 Yeah. CM Punk.

Robin Black 14:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:01 Sam... What is it, Jamie? Brooks. Brooks? Brooks. Brooks. Brooks. Phil Brooks. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, Phil. Yeah. Um, I was like, well, he's... This is a terrible idea- Yeah. ... 'cause he's just gonna get pu-... You can only get- Yes. ... punched in the face so many times in your life.

Robin Black 14:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:12 And we have a number, whatever the number is, everybody's different. Mark Hunt's number seems to be extraordinarily high-

Robin Black 14:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:17 ... you know? (laughs)

Robin Black 14:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:19 Yeah. There's some people that can just take it. And it's-

Robin Black 14:21 It's true.

Joe Rogan 14:21 But, you know, you don't want it when you can't avoid it. And he couldn-... He's not gonna avoid it in that fight. No. He was gonna get smashed. Unless Miki caught a crazy arm bar early in the fight and that was what he gave him, that's- Yeah. Other than that, he's getting his face smashed in. Mm-hmm. And you should not do that if you don't have to.

Robin Black 14:38 Well, that... I... I... I remember when we spoke about it, it's unconscious incompetence.

Joe Rogan 14:43 Yeah.

Robin Black 14:43 And that... If you don't know what you don't know, like-

Joe Rogan 14:48 Yeah.

Robin Black 14:48 ... i- it's a really fucking weird place to be.

Joe Rogan 14:50 Yeah.

Robin Black 14:50 And we go through life that way a lot of times in a lot of different contexts.

Joe Rogan 14:53 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 14:53 Until you find out, you know, conscious incompetence, where you're like, "Oh fuck, I don't know anything about this."

Joe Rogan 14:59 Yeah.

Robin Black 14:59 He wasn't even at that point. Now he's at that point and he has a lower level thing, so... And, you know, he didn't... It was a mistake to start down this road, but you're down it now.

Joe Rogan 15:09 Yeah.

Robin Black 15:09 You're on it now. So-

Joe Rogan 15:10 I guess.

Robin Black 15:11 ... you know-

Joe Rogan 15:12 It seems to me that, I mean, he's taken, what, two years-

Robin Black 15:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:16 ... since that fight?

Robin Black 15:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:17 It's been about two years?

Robin Black 15:18 He's getting there, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:19 And, uh, we've subsequently got to see Miki Gall in some contests against some really tough guys.

Robin Black 15:25 Yeah, Age North-

Joe Rogan 15:26 Beat them, and yeah.

Robin Black 15:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:27 Beat some good guys. And we got to see, like, "Okay, this kid is fucking for real." Which is what we suspected all along. Mm-hmm. But we don't know anything about Phil. We haven't seen him spar, we haven't seen him train. But from what I saw, when I first saw him training, the... The first... You know, when I first saw him sparring and moving around, I was like, "Goddamn, there's a lot of work to be done."

Robin Black 15:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:48 Like, you know, like first steps of Everest work to be done. It's like this is, um... We're not talking about a guy who has, like, a deep background in martial arts. Like Brock Lesnar. Yeah. You know, wrestling is absolutely a martial art. He was a legit top-of-the-food-chain amateur wrestler. He was a fucking monster. Yep.

Robin Black 16:06 And a physical monster. I mean-

Joe Rogan 16:08 Yeah.

Robin Black 16:08 ... that and a psychological monster.

Joe Rogan 16:10 Right.

Robin Black 16:10 Like, fighting is skills, for sure, but it's your body-

Joe Rogan 16:13 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 16:14 ... and it's your mind. And... And when you are a heavy competitor, when you focus, when you're able to focus in the deepest, most fearful conditions-

Joe Rogan 16:23 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 16:24 ... you know? Brock Lesnar did that, you know?

Joe Rogan 16:26 Yeah.

Robin Black 16:26 And, uh, physically, when you're aware, like you said, when you're aware of where your body is in space and how to control it-

Joe Rogan 16:32 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 16:32 ... that can take a lifetime.

Joe Rogan 16:33 Yeah.

Robin Black 16:34 And, uh, so it's a weird one, but-

Joe Rogan 16:36 And I think it's something you also develop as a child, as a young kid. Oh. Like, when you're in your developmental years, 13, 14, 15, your body's growing and it's growing into whipping kicks and punches- Mm-hmm. ... and shooting take-downs and landing chokes, your body develops that way. When you're a full-grown man in your 30s and then you're starting to throw roundhouse kicks and front kicks- Yeah. ... and your... and your body's all goofy and shit and doesn't... Doesn't wanna listen right, it's not pliable, it's not elastic, it's just a... You're a different animal.

Robin Black 17:07 Mm-hmm. You can still learn-

Joe Rogan 17:09 Yes.

Robin Black 17:09 ... anything. You... At s- 50 years old, you can take up anything in the world. You take up anything-

Joe Rogan 17:14 Fuck yeah.

Robin Black 17:14 ... and you should.

Joe Rogan 17:15 Yeah, you should.

Robin Black 17:15 But you shouldn't, you know, go in the NFL with it or if you start-

Joe Rogan 17:19 Right.

Robin Black 17:19 ... playing piano when you're 50, you should learn to play piano and show all your friends that you know the song or-

Joe Rogan 17:24 Right.

Robin Black 17:24 But you can't go, like, you know, be in a concert piano scenario where you're going to fail. And... And doing it and saying, you know, "I believe," doesn't make a difference-

Joe Rogan 17:34 Right, when it doesn't make a difference.

Robin Black 17:35 ... when you can't physically or mentally or psychologically do these things. But I still think learning and... And growing and chasing things and self-improvement is the root of who we are.

Joe Rogan 17:43 I agree. Yeah, I think it is too. But you can't be a 34-year-old man who's never boxed a day in your life and have a goal to, in 12 months, fight Lomachenko.

Robin Black 17:52 No. No (laughs) . No.

Joe Rogan 17:54 It's... It's never going to happen.

Robin Black 17:56 No. No. And-

Joe Rogan 17:56 And if it does happen, it's gonna be a disaster.

Robin Black 17:59 And it... The- the... There are...... giant exceptions, like one in a million of things where people do things. But there's always some other explanation. And often it is, as a youth, they created the neural pathways and the-

Joe Rogan 18:12 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 18:12 ... physicality and the connection-

Joe Rogan 18:13 Yeah.

Robin Black 18:14 ... to their body. You know, I was, uh, I did gymnastics when I was a kid and I loved it.

Joe Rogan 18:18 It's a great base.

Robin Black 18:19 Yeah, I loved it. And, and, and, you know, it helps you physically understand where your body is.

Joe Rogan 18:26 Yeah.

Robin Black 18:26 And so later on in life, I was always at least okay at sports because m- I understood how to move my body in space.

Joe Rogan 18:32 Yeah.

Robin Black 18:32 And I understood where my hand was compared to my foot and how I balanced. And, and-

Joe Rogan 18:36 Right.

Robin Black 18:36 ... to learn that as a child, i- somebody who was a master of something as a kid who at 30 picks up another thing and has some really advanced learning abilities, there are exceptions.

Joe Rogan 18:46 Mm-hmm. Sure.

Robin Black 18:47 Th- we see rare exceptions, but, but you're right. I mean, reality's still reality.

Joe Rogan 18:52 I wonder too if those exceptions are genetic. I wonder if like maybe perhaps someone in their family was a great athlete and it's transferred through their genes, which I, I am, as I get older, a firm believer in. Um, I just don't think we know enough about what transfers through genes.

Robin Black 19:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:08 But there's some freaky shit I see in my kids in particular where I go, "Okay, that is my fucking personality."

Robin Black 19:14 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:14 That's, there's something... And I'm not teaching her to do this. This is something that's in her, like this, the repetitive, uh, d- g- like exercise, like doing things over and over again obsessively. Like there's, there's some weird shit that like, I'm like, "I wonder if that's a neural pathway that's passed down through the DNA." I mean, it just seems like there could be a person who's never engaged in athletics, but maybe their grandfather was like a world champion boxer. And then one day they put on the gloves and then they just sorta like start moving around and the, the coach was like, "Hey."

Robin Black 19:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:47 "What the fuck's going on here?"

Robin Black 19:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:48 "Where'd you learn how to throw your jab like that?"

Robin Black 19:50 Um, I'm forgetting Francis Ngannou's coach's name.

Joe Rogan 19:53 I forget his name as well.

Robin Black 19:54 Yeah, um, Fernand Lopez.

Joe Rogan 19:56 Yeah, yes.

Robin Black 19:57 He's a wonderful guy, a smart guy, really, he's been around like the best of the best through Europe, so in Cameroon to France and these areas. And he's seen the best of the best that that genetic crop of humans has to offer.

Joe Rogan 20:12 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 20:12 And then Francis Ngannou walks into his gym and you talk to... Yo, y- uh, next time you see Fernand, uh, ask him about this 'cause you see his eyes light up, like that-

Joe Rogan 20:22 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 20:22 ... thing where there's like a color in the eye and he's like, "You know, I just knew." Like he said, "I watched him do things and his awareness of his body and how he could physically express himself," he said he'd just never seen anything like it. And this is, you know, week one in the gym, he said first sparring session, he didn't really know how to fight yet, but he said he saw him adapting and learning within the round against somebody who knew how to fight. And you see it in his eyes. He, he literally found a fucking unicorn-

Joe Rogan 20:48 Yeah.

Robin Black 20:48 ... that just strolled in off the street and came in and then he was like, "Man, if he's had some work ethic, if he is like, you know, if this, if he's passionate about this, if he can commit and learn and all that." He goes, "Physically, genetically speaking, this human being, the length of his bones, the s- the s- speed of his neurology, all of these things," he said, "you just knew."

Joe Rogan 21:08 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 21:09 And you see it in his face, you're like, "Oh fuck, that must have been wild." Like, it must have been wild to, to experience that when you have a lifetime of seeing athletes.

Joe Rogan 21:19 Yeah. Yeah. It's like that scene in The Color of Money. I don't know if you ever saw that movie.

Robin Black 21:23 Yeah, of course.

Joe Rogan 21:23 With, uh, Paul Mov- m- uh, Paul Newman and Tom Cruise. When, uh, Paul Newman hears Tom Cruise break the balls for the first time and turns around-

Robin Black 21:31 Yeah, right.

Joe Rogan 21:31 ... he's like, "The fuck is going on over here?" And he looks over and he sees this kid. There's, there's certain people that just have this crazy talent and when someone has been around for a long time as a coach and had a bunch of untalented or reasonably talented or very talented people, there's this big stew of humans coming to their gym and you see that one unicorn that steps in. And he's also a case where his father, I mean, he doesn't have a background, he didn't have a background in martial arts before he started training, but his father was a great street fighter.

Robin Black 22:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:02 And it's entirely possible that something was carried on through him.

Robin Black 22:06 Or something was present in both that allowed them both to be capable of doing that.

Joe Rogan 22:11 Yeah.

Robin Black 22:11 Rather than the learn to pass, because we don't know how that passes genetically from, from behavior.

Joe Rogan 22:18 Yeah.

Robin Black 22:18 We know that genetically we may behave similar to our parents or kids.

Joe Rogan 22:22 Right.

Robin Black 22:22 But we don't know if that came from that. But, uh, there, I, I just, I'm always weirdly uncomfortable thinking about genetics because-

Joe Rogan 22:33 Why?

Robin Black 22:34 ... I don't like the idea that we're limited by them. And I know that we're not on some level. But-

Joe Rogan 22:39 We are.

Robin Black 22:39 But we are. But, but that shouldn't-

Joe Rogan 22:41 You and I are not gonna play basketball-

Robin Black 22:43 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:44 ... against LeBron James.

Robin Black 22:45 But if we identified... No, no we're not.

Joe Rogan 22:47 (laughs)

Robin Black 22:47 Um, no. We're-

Joe Rogan 22:48 If we do, it's not gonna go well.

Robin Black 22:50 True. Okay, no, there's some, there's doubtle- like-

Joe Rogan 22:52 Yeah.

Robin Black 22:53 ... definitely some truths. I mean, I'm five foot six on a tall day. Like, that is a d- genetic limitation that is undeniable.

Joe Rogan 23:01 Right.

Robin Black 23:01 Right. Um, but if we're looking at things and we decide that our genes... Have you seen the movie Gattaca? Have you ever seen that movie?

Joe Rogan 23:09 Man, I did see that movie a long time ago. That's with, uh-

Robin Black 23:11 It's one of my favorite movies ever. Matt, uh-

Joe Rogan 23:13 What's that little fucker's name?

Robin Black 23:15 Ethan Hawke.

Joe Rogan 23:16 Ethan Hawke. Thank you.

Robin Black 23:16 Ethan Hawke. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:17 I always think of him as Uma Thurman.

Robin Black 23:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:19 Because I know he's-

Robin Black 23:19 They're both in it. She's in it. They're both in it.

Joe Rogan 23:21 I know, but I think of him as Uma Thurman because he used to be married to her. I'm like, "Oh, that's Uma Thurman."

Robin Black 23:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:25 (laughs)

Robin Black 23:25 That's not Uma Thurman. Uh-

Joe Rogan 23:27 But you know what I mean?

Robin Black 23:28 Yeah. (laughs) Uh, in that movie, his brother is genetically superior to him, but he beats his brother in these swimming contests all the time. And at the end, his brother's like, "How are you doing this?" And he said, "I never saved anything for the swim back. I was just gonna swim to the other side." And his brother's like, "There is no fucking other side." But it was a mi- I know it's a movie, but it was a mindset, right? And the truth is that s- like talent, okay, so you're talented at certain things, Jamie's talented at certain things, Francis Ngannou, t- talented. Talent multiplied by effort equals skill.

Joe Rogan 24:01 Yeah.

Robin Black 24:01 Then skill multiplied by effort equals accomplishment.

Joe Rogan 24:06 Mm.

Robin Black 24:06 So effort counts twice.

Joe Rogan 24:08 Right.

Robin Black 24:08 Effort counts fucking twice.

Joe Rogan 24:10 But then you get effort with a talented guy with freak genetics like a LeBron James or a Michael Jordan or a Brock Lesnar, and then you get some crazy results.

Robin Black 24:20 Yes. Oh, big time. And the guy who doesn't have the, the talent but had effort twice, effort was applied twice, will go as far as... You know, the man or woman will go as far as they possibly could. They'll actualize their true potential by committing themselves to, to effort. And not going, "Well, I can't do it, so forget it." By applying effort over and over and over again, and then once you've developed talent, more effort to take that talent and do something, that twice used effort will get you as far as you possibly can. If you say, "Well, I'm not gifted, I'm not talented, so I won't put in any, any effort," you have no idea how far you can go. So I absolutely cannot beat Francis Ngannou, but by not thinking that I'm too limited by my genes and continuing to apply effort regardless of my genes, I can get to the best possible place I can as an individual.

Joe Rogan 25:11 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 25:11 Do you know what I mean? So I think that, that on some... You don't want to go down some road that you... It cannot be accomplished, but you also don't want to not go down roads because you're not genetically predisposed to them. I think effort can get you somewhere.

Joe Rogan 25:24 Uh, it definitely can get you somewhere, but I think what we're talking about here is what I love about life, is that it's messy.

Robin Black 25:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:30 That there's not... It's not one plus one is two.

Robin Black 25:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:33 It's not, it's not zeros and ones. It's just, there's a bunch of factors.

Robin Black 25:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:37 There's a lot of shit going on, man. And that's why when something magical takes place, when you get a, you know, a s- a Georges St-Pierre or when you, you get a Mighty Mouse, when you get someone who's like, "Whoa, like look at that." Like, there's, there's so many factors that lead you to be a Gennady Golovkin.

Robin Black 25:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:55 You know? There's so many different things have to fall into place. Or here's a guy... Like, how about Michael Bisping? Like, Michael Bisping is just one of the toughest motherfuckers ever. He just found the perfect example.

Robin Black 26:08 You just found the perfect example.

Joe Rogan 26:09 Yeah. Michael-

Robin Black 26:09 But you found the perfect example.

Joe Rogan 26:09 Yeah, Michael Bisping is one of the toughest motherfuckers ever. He's not extraordinarily talented in any one form of MMA. He's not like the fastest guy.

Robin Black 26:20 No.

Joe Rogan 26:20 He's not the strongest guy.

Robin Black 26:21 No.

Joe Rogan 26:21 He doesn't have this great background in Brazilian jiu-jitsu where he's just a world-class strangler and if he gets your back you're fucked. There's none of those things. He's just tough as fuck and he's one of the most mentally strong guys. Like, even Tim Kennedy, who was here the other day.

Robin Black 26:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:37 Tim Kennedy is like, "God, I hate to give him a compliment but he's so fucking tough."

Robin Black 26:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:40 You can't, you can't deny him.

Robin Black 26:42 You can't. So and, and that goes right back to this. And I think this is at the root of questions about life. Is Michael Bisping genetically tough? Is he genetically mentally tough? Or did he work really hard and just push himself through things, and that one day when it got really fucking tough he didn't give up, which taught him that he shouldn't give up, which taught him to go even further, which made him push himself? Like, or was it... In all likelihood, it's both. But Michael Bisping, free of that effort to continue to... Because, um, what's his name? Think of the mentally toughest guy that, um... I'm just... I have a thing with names sometimes. Even names I know I'll describe-

Joe Rogan 27:19 Right.

Robin Black 27:19 ... you know, a guy's got a chain and he's howling and he does a power slam, but I can't think of Rampage.

Joe Rogan 27:23 Rampage Jordan. Right.

Robin Black 27:24 I can't think of Rampage. But, um, uh, big elbows. You've had him probably on the podcast. Uh, tough, hairy chest.

Joe Rogan 27:31 (laughs)

Robin Black 27:32 Um, uh, who am I thinking of?

Joe Rogan 27:34 What-

Robin Black 27:35 170 pounds, fought Demian Maia. Um...

Joe Rogan 27:38 Matt Brown?

Robin Black 27:39 Matt Brown.

Joe Rogan 27:39 Oh, okay.

Robin Black 27:39 Matt Brown.

Joe Rogan 27:40 Okay.

Robin Black 27:40 So, yeah. But that's examples.

Joe Rogan 27:42 Hairy chest. (laughs)

Robin Black 27:42 I can, I can literally say-

Joe Rogan 27:44 Big elbows, hairy chest.

Robin Black 27:45 I can literally say all these things-

Joe Rogan 27:46 Yeah.

Robin Black 27:46 ... but the name will escape me. It's a strange thing.

Joe Rogan 27:48 I understand.

Robin Black 27:49 I, I-

Joe Rogan 27:49 Well, I... It happens to me too.

Robin Black 27:50 It happens to me too.

Joe Rogan 27:50 Yeah.

Robin Black 27:51 Yeah. I-

Joe Rogan 27:51 Takes some alpha brain.

Robin Black 27:52 Uh, uh-

Joe Rogan 27:52 It'll help you.

Robin Black 27:53 ... I worked with, um, John-

Joe Rogan 27:54 It's also early in the morning.

Robin Black 27:55 Yeah, right. I worked with Jon Ramdeen for years. He's one of my best friends. And he would literally just see it in my eyes, just like I won't have the name and I'll throw out one or two of those factoids and he always had it. He'd be like, "Matt Brown."

Joe Rogan 28:05 So that's why having good friends-

Robin Black 28:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:06 ... to work with is great.

Robin Black 28:07 Right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:08 They-

Robin Black 28:08 You know-

Joe Rogan 28:08 ... know your paths.

Robin Black 28:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:10 Yeah.

Robin Black 28:10 But talking to Matt Brown and on the phone I, I, doing an interview with him, I said, "You're one of the mentally toughest guys there is." And he said that, "I don't think I am." He said, "If I think I'm mentally tough for one moment, I will not do all of the things necessary to walk in mentally tough."

Joe Rogan 28:26 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 28:26 He said, he's like, "M- I am not mentally tough. The mental toughness is a result of all of the hard work and preparation that I have done to be able to do it in that moment."

Joe Rogan 28:36 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 28:36 And you heard it in his voice, he had no doubt that this was so.

Joe Rogan 28:40 Yeah.

Robin Black 28:40 And I think he's right.

Joe Rogan 28:42 I think he's right too.

Robin Black 28:42 I think he's right.

Joe Rogan 28:43 Yeah.

Robin Black 28:43 You know?

Joe Rogan 28:43 I think he's right too, but he's also mentally tough-

Robin Black 28:45 Fuck yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:46 ... because he also does those things.

Robin Black 28:47 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:47 But one of the things that, about Matt Brown that separates him is that that guy empties out in the cage. He separates himself from the pack because he, he's so ferocious.

Robin Black 28:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:58 Like, that guy's ferocious.

Robin Black 29:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:00 Remember when, when he stepped into the cage, we were watching. I think we were doing a fight companion, but we were, um... Maybe we weren't? Uh, anyway, when, when he stepped into the cage and fought Diego Sanchez, when he, when he stepped into the octagon and screamed and roared, it was literally like an animal.

Robin Black 29:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:17 I mean, it was, it was ferocity defined. And that's just how he fights, man. That guy just empties out like whatever the fuck he's got. He's not holding anything back, man. He, he goes for it.

Robin Black 29:29 And that's why I think when we were talking about fight and art, to me that's an art of human expression.

Joe Rogan 29:35 Yeah.

Robin Black 29:35 Like, I think that is... To be i- capable, I mean, whether you're s- um, you're doing jazz or punk rock, it's human expression.

Joe Rogan 29:44 Yeah.

Robin Black 29:44 Whether you're Matt Brown or you're some elegant mover, it's still the same art at its root. Um, but do you remember that elbow he fired on Diego Sanchez in that fight?

Joe Rogan 29:53 Yeah.

Robin Black 29:53 Like, it was there and there... The, these moments are there a lot when you're analyzing fighting. And looking at it from that other perspective, these fight ending moments are there. They're there way more often than these guys realize. But when they spot them, like Matt did in that moment-

Joe Rogan 30:09 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 30:09 ... this is, I have a free shot from an angle.

Joe Rogan 30:12 Yeah.

Robin Black 30:12 Time has slowed down enough that I see it. I can see the little red arc of where it's going-

Joe Rogan 30:16 Yeah.

Robin Black 30:16 ... and I'm going to put this... I'm going to end this fight.

Joe Rogan 30:18 Right.

Robin Black 30:19 It, it's... There's a visceral, like, like, uh, it's...

Joe Rogan 30:23 Here it is right here.

Robin Black 30:24 Oh, lookit.You see it. See-

Joe Rogan 30:27 Yep.

Robin Black 30:27 ... just, like that, that is fucking art to me. But watch the left hand, the reach, and the hold. And it's like, there is no doubt what- what's happening here.

Joe Rogan 30:38 Do you-

Robin Black 30:38 There is no doubt what's gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 30:39 Diego Sanchez is another curious example because he's also a guy who is ferocious, like a ferociously tough guy. But there's always been something about his movements that makes him come up short against-

Robin Black 30:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:54 ... the best of the best.

Robin Black 30:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:55 And, I mean, you're talking about a guy who's so fucking mentally tough as well. Like, I always bring his fight against Jake Ellenberger, who is a brutal-

Robin Black 31:03 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 31:03 ... knockout artist at 170. And Diego really... I mean, Diego fought at 145, remember?

Robin Black 31:08 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:08 And Diego really is a tweener. He's like-

Robin Black 31:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:11 ... a little too small for 55. I don't know how the-

Robin Black 31:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:13 ... fuck he made it to 145. He basically starved-

Robin Black 31:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:16 ... his body away and probably did some irrev- irreversible damage. But he fi- like, his movements are always just shy of elite. And I've always wondered, "What is that?" Like, he, uh, it's almost like even if you see that... Go back to that clip again. But you don't have to. It's okay.

Robin Black 31:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:34 But there's something about even the way he steps.

Robin Black 31:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:38 He, he's not stepping the way a TJ Dillashaw steps. You know what I'm saying?

Robin Black 31:43 Yeah. He's... So, I, I see it as his sort of intention. It's, he's over inten- Oh, God, that is so-

Joe Rogan 31:49 It's nasty.

Robin Black 31:50 ... nasty and so perfect. But I see he wants it badly, like he is, he's over-engaged. I think it's psychological as much as anything. I was in, in, um, Albuquerque. Look at the, the placement of the left hand. There, there's just no doubt where this is going.

Joe Rogan 32:05 Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's perfect.

Robin Black 32:05 Like, it's... And it is the moment that Matt Brown created.

Joe Rogan 32:09 (laughs)

Robin Black 32:09 Like, he created that moment. Um, see, hairy chest.

Joe Rogan 32:13 Yeah-

Robin Black 32:13 Told you.

Joe Rogan 32:13 ... hairy chest.

Robin Black 32:14 (laughs) It's funny. That's one of, one of my reminder cues, right?

Joe Rogan 32:18 (laughs)

Robin Black 32:18 Uh, but, uh, I think... So I watched Diego train in Albuquerque, and I love the guy. Um, I was there doing, interviewing Cub, who is w, my favorite artist probably to watch for many reasons. I'm not, not really sure exactly why. People can't tell you why their favorite band is their favorite band.

Joe Rogan 32:35 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 32:35 But I can all... There are many things that I can describe.

Joe Rogan 32:38 Right.

Robin Black 32:38 But I was there to interview him for MonsterZym. It's, uh, a, uh, website in South Korea that, when I became a freelancer, they were like, "We'd like to give you, um, some work." I'm like, "Well, that would be amazing." They're like, "We'd like you to go," he just fought Juho Choi, so, "We'd like you to go interview Mr. Cub Swanson." I'm like, "This is badass. This is, like, my favorite fighter, and they're gonna send me to Albuquerque." And then I hung out in the gym and analyzed them and watched and made notes about what I could. And Diego trying super intense, and he, like, does everything super intense. And, and as much as he loves yoga, and at different times yoga and meditation has allowed him to do it differently, that hyperintensity, I think, doesn't allow the sort of soft relaxation that's necessary to really do what you're describing.

Joe Rogan 33:21 Mm.

Robin Black 33:21 You know?

Joe Rogan 33:21 Yeah. I know what you're saying. Like, the, one of the things that people don't understand about striking hard and, like, having real power is that you're not fully tense through the entire movement. There's a lot of parts of striking where the momentum starts, and you're almost, like, completely loose, like, up until in- inst- instance before the point of contact. And then it's blang! There's this, there's this weird thing that real knockout artists have that you don't see in these fucking super-

Robin Black 33:51 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:52 ... tense windmill guys.

Robin Black 33:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:53 The windmill guys are too tight.

Robin Black 33:55 Totally.

Joe Rogan 33:56 But a guy like Ray Robinson will throw a bap! Like, there's a, there was a Gene Fullmer-Ray Robinson KO clip from the other night. Uh, I was, I was watching it online. I must've watched it like 13 times-

Robin Black 34:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:07 ... in a row. But you watch him land this, I think it was a left hook, but you watch the, the punch land and you're like, "Jesus."

Robin Black 34:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:13 Like, the snap of that guy had.

Robin Black 34:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:15 But that snap is not, it's not (grunts) it's not fully tense. Here it is, right here. Like, look how-

Robin Black 34:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:23 ... loose and soft he is.

Robin Black 34:24 Yeah, supple.

Joe Rogan 34:25 Yeah, soft. Boom! Look at that.

Robin Black 34:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:27 Look at that left hook. J-

Robin Black 34:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:28 Right there. That one softens him up, ties him up. But everything is, like, the way he's-

Robin Black 34:32 The way it's flowing.

Joe Rogan 34:33 ... moving. Yeah.

Robin Black 34:34 Yeah. He's swimming.

Joe Rogan 34:35 Yeah. I mean-

Robin Black 34:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:35 ... it's just, he was an amazing boxer, dude.

Robin Black 34:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:38 And you're talking about a guy who had, like, psh, what do you... A 100 and something fights, right?

Robin Black 34:42 He- it's, he's almost gentle, right? Like, he's-

Joe Rogan 34:44 Yeah.

Robin Black 34:45 ... soft is the right word.

Joe Rogan 34:46 Yeah.

Robin Black 34:46 There's a suppleness. There's a, there's a calmness. There's a relaxation. And mentally too.

Joe Rogan 34:50 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 34:51 Like, you know that idea of there's a storm going on in the middle-

Joe Rogan 34:54 Yeah.

Robin Black 34:54 ... and there's this calm area? That gentleness, that, that calmness has to be in your mind to allow you to do this. And that's where Diego is... Oh, look at that.

Joe Rogan 35:03 Look it, right there. Right there. Come on, man.

Robin Black 35:04 I mean, like, just look at that.

Joe Rogan 35:05 Just that, that's fucking incredible. That left hook-

Robin Black 35:08 And it-

Joe Rogan 35:08 ... right here. Here it is. Bink!

Robin Black 35:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:10 I mean...

Robin Black 35:10 And even just to create that moment and to see that moment-

Joe Rogan 35:14 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Robin Black 35:14 ... you know?

Joe Rogan 35:15 And to set it up and lay traps and see when the guy is moving his hands down, see when he's coming forward-

Robin Black 35:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:21 ... see his patterns and tendencies.

Robin Black 35:22 Or make him do those things.

Joe Rogan 35:23 Yep. Yep.

Robin Black 35:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:24 Yep. But it's that kind of power in that left hook that does not come from (grunts)

Robin Black 35:30 No. So-

Joe Rogan 35:32 It comes from pap! It's just a pshap! That's just a, this little twist that he does. Like, come on. But here it is right here in slow-mo.

Robin Black 35:39 Ah.

Joe Rogan 35:39 Bang!

Robin Black 35:40 And it's his hip and there's like, uh-

Joe Rogan 35:42 Ugh.

Robin Black 35:42 So I did, uh, I'm sure you saw it.

Joe Rogan 35:44 Amazing.

Robin Black 35:44 Or I think you saw it. I did a little breakdown of your kicks.

Joe Rogan 35:47 I did see that. Yeah.

Robin Black 35:48 And it's just, that's what I was z- zooming in on, was this double pulse. And that's real. That's, that is the neurology of high athletic performance. Um, so I have these friends that I've developed, or that I've gathered over the years. And I love what I do, man. Like, I'm happy every single day. And a big part of it is I've met these people that I have these conversations with. And sometimes they're very long and deep, and, and they've... Some, I have friends that are PhD psychologists. And this one guy, Dr. Stu McGill, do you know who he is?

Joe Rogan 36:20 No. I know that name though.

Robin Black 36:21 He's... Yeah. You've probably heard that name. I'm sure somebody has mentioned it because you're around different athletic types of all types. He is the world's foremost expert in the spinal cord and neurology of athletic performance.

Joe Rogan 36:33 Spinal cord?

Robin Black 36:34 Yeah. The spinal cord and how... And your neurology and your nerves and how your nervous system... And George St-Pierre has worked with him a lot. He, if you ask him about him this week, he would talk about him extensively. So, Dr. Stu and I became friends. And it's a big compliment, 'cause he sought me out based on seeing my work-... and saying, "That guy knows some things. I want to talk to him," which was a fucking deep compliment to me. And now we became friends and we chat all the time. And one of the things we constantly talk about is the double-pulse neurology. And people talk about a fast-twitch fiber. It's not a fiber, as... That's just terms we've started to hear. It's a fast-twitch neurology. It's, it's a, um, base, uh... Fastball hitters have it, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 37:19 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 37:19 That neurology where you, you... There's a pulse of tension and then a complete relaxation until the pulse of tension again. The Bruce Lee's one-inch punch was the simple example of that. But that is how, that is the neurology of high athletic performance. And that's what I zoomed in on when I was looking at your kick because you can see it quite clearly. There's the moment, there's the relax, and there's the hit, and it ends up being more of a whip. And Stu, Dr. Stu has all these incredible analogies because he's examined this in so many different angles and layers, which is the beauty of analyzing anything for years. And he'll use terms like, "You can't shoot a, a cannon out of a canoe." And you think about that and you're like, "Of course."

Joe Rogan 37:59 'Cause the canoe's all wobbly and shit. (laughs)

Robin Black 38:00 Yeah, but if it's tense and then it shoots and-

Joe Rogan 38:03 Yeah.

Robin Black 38:03 Uh, or you can't push a rope, right?

Joe Rogan 38:04 Ooh.

Robin Black 38:04 You push a rope, right?

Joe Rogan 38:06 Yeah.

Robin Black 38:06 And so... But you can whip a rope-

Joe Rogan 38:08 Right.

Robin Black 38:08 ... through tension, relaxation, and, and tension again. And that neurology is the neurology of high performance. And George... If you talk to George about neurology, he'll go deep down some shit, G- George St-Pierre, because he studied this to understand himself and what he was doing at a high level with Dr. Stu.

Joe Rogan 38:25 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 38:26 But it is a fascinating thing because when you think... W- we often will say, you know, fighting is 90% mental. Sipping this cup is 100% mental, you know? My brain told my body to reach out and do it. My brain made this choice. I, I activated everything used. It's all your brain, everything.

Joe Rogan 38:47 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 38:47 And once you get to a high level of performance, you know how to punch and kick and, and you train like crazy and you make the things happen by themselves almost by training so much they take so little attention in decision-making, it becomes about maximizing your nervous system, how your nervous system... And I think that's true of almost anything. But we-

Joe Rogan 39:04 Is this something he's doing here?

Robin Black 39:05 Oh, there's Dr. Stu right there. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:07 Yeah.

Robin Black 39:07 Yeah. That's his-

Joe Rogan 39:08 Who is he training with there? George, yeah.

Robin Black 39:09 George and Dr. Stu.

Joe Rogan 39:10 Oh, I couldn't see his face.

Robin Black 39:12 Yeah. Yeah, that's George.

Joe Rogan 39:12 He looks like a Black guy, to be honest. (laughs)

Robin Black 39:14 Who, George?

Joe Rogan 39:16 George. (laughs)

Robin Black 39:16 Ah, there's... Yeah. But, uh, that is-

Joe Rogan 39:19 So he's got him whipping a ball around?

Robin Black 39:20 Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what he's doing or why there.

Joe Rogan 39:23 Hmm, one-arm dumbbell press.

Robin Black 39:24 But, um, but I'll put you in touch with him often. He's-

Joe Rogan 39:26 So it's like a... It looks like he's got some heavy weight at the end of a rope.

Robin Black 39:31 Yeah, and I guess engaging the core-

Joe Rogan 39:33 Hmm.

Robin Black 39:33 ... through the use of, you know-

Joe Rogan 39:35 Right.

Robin Black 39:35 ... probably asking him to only engage certain things to counterbalance the movement.

Joe Rogan 39:40 I'm surprised to see George wearing your typical, uh, running shoe when he's training-

Robin Black 39:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:44 ... with the thick heel and-

Robin Black 39:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:47 You know, I'm still surprised to this day when I see, uh, when we talk about neurology and activating muscles and tissues, like there's so many athletes that still train with those big, cushy-bottomed running shoes.

Robin Black 40:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:00 I mean, I think that it's crazy.

Robin Black 40:02 Big time.

Joe Rogan 40:03 It's weird.

Robin Black 40:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:04 It's weird. I mean, you should be doing that kind of shit barefoot, especially a fighter. You fight barefoot. You should be wearing nothing on your feet.

Robin Black 40:11 And the only thing connecting you to a stable surface is your foot.

Joe Rogan 40:15 Yeah, yeah.

Robin Black 40:15 Right? I a- I agree 100%. Um, sometimes when we're trying to make sense of these things, we go to multiple different sort of perspectives of it. So I'll take what I learned from Dr. Stu, and he's just my friend now as well, so I like hanging out and chatting with him about, like, way out there aspects of these things. But you talk to Erwan Le Cor as well, who has a different sphere of connecting to this kind of thing.

Joe Rogan 40:39 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 40:39 And Erwan starts with the foot and-

Joe Rogan 40:41 Right.

Robin Black 40:41 And you've had Erwan on the-

Joe Rogan 40:43 Yes.

Robin Black 40:43 Yeah, yeah. And he starts with the foot, and everything else, it makes sense, right?

Joe Rogan 40:46 Yeah.

Robin Black 40:46 I go to throw a punch and th- the important part is going to be my foot, through the leg, through the hip, through the core, and, and relaxed until the moment that it hits. But it all starts with the foot.

Joe Rogan 40:56 Nick Kurston is the same way. When I asked Nick- excuse me, when I asked Nick Kurston about training athletes, like what's the f- the thing that he thinks fighters should work on the most, he's like, "Foot strength." Huh. Huh.

Robin Black 41:07 But I was like, wow. And I thought about it, I'm like, well, of course, right? That's how you push off. That's how you move. Like, if your feet are weak and they get tired, you can't move well. Which I've experienced, I'm sure you've experienced. Um, when your feet are weak and tired, like if y- if you don't run and then you try to run, one of the first things that get tired are your feet. Yeah. The, the very worst, um, injury I've ever had in my life by far was plantar fasciitis of both feet.

Joe Rogan 41:32 Oh.

Robin Black 41:33 My last fight, and I was through training and everything, and then I had, um, my fight in Montreal and the whole strategy was put... Getting to a place where I could be safe and use better knowledge of the situation to fatigue the other guy. So the whole... A lot of the seven or eight minutes of the fight, uh, took place with me pressuring him against the fence, just driving off both feet, pressuring against the fence to try to land things or make, create lines for different weapons. And it's only eight minutes, but eight minutes of intense drive from my feet, and then we went on vacation the very next day, and that night we grabbed margaritas and we walked around the resort, and my feet were destroyed for, uh, acutely, for three or four days. Like I couldn't walk and the inflammation was so unbelievably bad. It was like bricks. And, uh, even for months after, it was really bad.

Joe Rogan 42:24 Did you ice them?

Robin Black 42:25 I tried to ice. I would ice or I would get in- immediately into the cold pool and spend the day in the cold pool drinking tequila-

Joe Rogan 42:31 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 42:31 ... in hopes that it would help, and it kind of did. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:34 Oh. I guess. (laughs)

Robin Black 42:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:35 Yeah, foot pain is, uh-

Robin Black 42:37 It's bad.

Joe Rogan 42:37 ... I mean that, that's one of the things that hurt Dominick Cruz in his comeback fight, um, when he, uh, fought TJ Dillashaw. You noticed he was, like, kinda limping a little. We were attributing it to the leg kicks. He said that's not the case. He said what was going on was he had plantar fasciitis-

Robin Black 42:52 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 42:52 ... because, you know, he had multiple injuries that he was re- re- recovering from during that training camp. And when he got knee surgery and he came back from that and he tore his groin, he tried to, like, really ramp up his training. He was doing a lot of sprinting and a lot of different things with his feet. You know, 'cause obviously, he's very footwork-intensive-

Robin Black 43:12 Yeah, big time.

Joe Rogan 43:12 ... with his fighting. And he fucked his feet up, man.

Robin Black 43:14 Wow.

Joe Rogan 43:14 His feet just weren't in condition to do the kinda stuff that he used to be able to do. And the first thing he got was plantar fasciitis.

Robin Black 43:21 (sighs) So painful.

Joe Rogan 43:21 Schaub had it too. He told me it was-

Robin Black 43:22 It's the most painful thing.

Joe Rogan 43:23 ... one of the worst things he's ever had.

Robin Black 43:24 Me too. Think of this for the big picture meaning of this for Dominick. So y- y- you got somebody else and they're going about fighting and their- their career as a martial artist, a competitive fighter one way. And Dominick goes about it a different way. And through Dominick's choices, uh, moving, training, footwork, he avoids a lot of the damage that these guys will take.

Joe Rogan 43:48 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 43:49 But he can't avoid... Something's gonna go.

Joe Rogan 43:51 Right.

Robin Black 43:51 So instead of taking getting kicked a lot and punched in the head and taking all those things, the training necessary to make that not happen fucks up something else. Like-

Joe Rogan 43:59 Yeah.

Robin Black 43:59 ... you can't get away from it.

Joe Rogan 44:01 Right.

Robin Black 44:01 You're gonna work yourself until your body gives up. Even Dom, brilliantly finding a way to work outside of taking the damage that they take, still could not get away from damaging his body.

Joe Rogan 44:12 TJ Dillashaw versus Cody Garbrandt, the rematch is one of the most intriguing fights-

Robin Black 44:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:17 ... of the year for me. I'm really, really curious about that fight because, uh, I know those guys were tightly matched in the gym. And I know that Cody cracked him with a big right hand before TJ put him away.

Robin Black 44:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:28 And so, but-

Robin Black 44:28 And he was stunned-

Joe Rogan 44:29 Yeah.

Robin Black 44:30 ... at the end.

Joe Rogan 44:30 He was stunned.

Robin Black 44:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:30 I mean, he got rocked. And, uh, I believe when Cody cracked him, it was towards the end of the round.

Robin Black 44:36 It was.

Joe Rogan 44:36 Yeah. And so, he had an opportunity to recover. I mean, who knows if he had caught that right hand the first minute of the round what had gone on. But when TJ recovered from that and then landed that head kick and then, you know, knocked him out and put him away, you- you got to see, like, what a high-level, high-stakes game these two guys are playing. And, you know, TJ has, through Bang Ludwig, has really radically improved his movement, his footwork, his angles, his approach. He is so versatile with his ability to switch stances, his ability... I mean, he's constantly cutting angles and- and striking as he's switching-

Robin Black 45:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:17 ... stances. And there's so much information coming at you if you're fighting him, your- your brain's overloaded if you're not used to that. And even the guys who used to train with him, I believe, in Alpha Male, are not used to what he's doing now.

Robin Black 45:30 I agree.

Joe Rogan 45:31 Because it's, it's at a, it's, uh, at a far higher level. That said, Cody still has a fucking missile in his right hand.

Robin Black 45:38 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:38 It's so goddamn fast. His hand speed is so fast and his, his fluidity and efficiency in his boxing is so good. This is a very, very interesting fight for me.

Robin Black 45:49 That's about as good as it gets right now.

Joe Rogan 45:52 Yeah.

Robin Black 45:52 Like, from the raw materials of those guys-

Joe Rogan 45:55 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 45:55 ... and the skills that they have. But I- I am definitely with you as far as the- my deep curiosity of the choices of the coaches.

Joe Rogan 46:04 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 46:05 Because... And you talk to some of them, different ones. You know, I've got a few key friends that I talk to on a very regular basis. And so, what it will take, what we would decide to do to train to make our guy the best in the wor- or try to be the best in the world in 10 months, if we take a different strategy and we start to build them to be the best in the world in three years, it's a different game.

Joe Rogan 46:26 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 46:26 And that's what Duane's done.

Joe Rogan 46:27 Yeah.

Robin Black 46:27 Duane has said, "We will..." And it's, it's fucking hard work for Duane too. Like, that's the thing that people won't necessarily appreciate. They'll be like, "Oh, he's a brilliant coach." That's non-stop constant searching and examining-

Joe Rogan 46:41 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 46:41 ... and, and trial and error and reinterpreting his language of understanding where the, where the chaos is, and understanding, you know, can we make this guy believe something's happening or are we too deep in it that he doesn't think that and it fails?

Joe Rogan 46:56 Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Robin Black 46:57 Like, what levels of misdirection are too deep? How good is he? And when I talked to them leading up to that one, it was like, you know, the conversation was about h- making Cody believe and anticipate something wrong. And that's the root of all, of all combat, right?

Joe Rogan 47:13 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 47:14 Like, you make me think this is coming and I do this-

Joe Rogan 47:16 Sure.

Robin Black 47:16 ... and you kick me in the body.

Joe Rogan 47:17 Yeah.

Robin Black 47:17 And the layers, the multiple layers, like you just said, overloading the ability to... You're trying to catalog what's coming and how you chunk that, uh, we don't necessarily understand.

Joe Rogan 47:28 Right.

Robin Black 47:28 So your brain may be going, "Okay, this is all the stuff from the left, which happens when this happens," or "The- the- the legs are doing this." Or... You're running algorithms in your brain and we don't kn- I don't know what yours is.

Joe Rogan 47:40 Right.

Robin Black 47:40 I don't know how you categorize my threats. I don't know whether you categorize anything from my right hand or anything in combination, or if you're watching the patterns of my shoulders. I have no idea. So Duane and anybody else playing with this, uh, concept is trying to figure out how you'll read this-

Joe Rogan 47:56 Yeah.

Robin Black 47:57 ... and use that against you. And to me, that's the l- the layer of complete mind-blowing nature that... Like, what did you say? Chess with dire consequences or problem solving?

Joe Rogan 48:07 I said high-level problem solving. Yeah.

Robin Black 48:08 Yeah. Think of how fucking hard those problems are now.

Joe Rogan 48:10 Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Black 48:10 How many there are. That's the game, and it, and it can be done at this level 'cause their skills are so good, their minds are so good, they're physically so good. They're capable, they're fearless, they're confident, they have all of those raw materials. And now we're playing a game that most of us cannot comprehend.

Joe Rogan 48:26 And they've also sparred countless hours together so they understand each other.

Robin Black 48:30 Yeah. Lies. And they've told each other lies-

Joe Rogan 48:31 Yeah.

Robin Black 48:31 ... for long periods of time.

Joe Rogan 48:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robin Black 48:33 Lies on lies.

Joe Rogan 48:34 Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Black 48:34 I one time went with, uh, I worked for a company called The Score Fighting Series. It, it was r- a brilliant show, like it was-... kind of counted as Bellator. Like, it was on the same network and they aired Bellator and it was very, very good developmental league stuff. And that company brought in Forrest Griffin and then a bunch of poker players. And they were on a train together and f- and contest winners on the thing got to ride on this train with Forrest Griffin and a bunch of poker pa- b- high-level pro poker players. And I was there, and that was the first time I met Forrest. And he's this c- killer, smart dude. But you watch these poker players who are all riding together and they all know each other, and they're just telling each other lies all the time. Trying to, like, tell stories about things that represent the fact that they are, you know, conservative, when really they're risk-takers. Or trying to tell each other things that make them think they're crazy, but really-

Joe Rogan 49:24 Right.

Robin Black 49:24 ... they're calculating. Like, they are telling each other lies ongoing and they're gambling with each other and shit. It's c- completely degenerate- degenerative.

Joe Rogan 49:31 (laughs)

Robin Black 49:32 But that's the kind of thing that's happening on some level with these, the high-level fighters too.

Joe Rogan 49:37 Yeah.

Robin Black 49:37 Making them think certain things about what they will do or believe they'll do. Almost everything they say, um, we shou- the fans and the audience, we should assume is a game chip.

Joe Rogan 49:49 Yeah.

Robin Black 49:49 It's like it's something to make the other one believe something that might, in that moment, let me land that kick if he thinks that I'm, you know, whatever, right? It's manipulative stuff. And at that level, that is just so unbelievably fascinating.

Joe Rogan 50:02 It really is. It really is. And the stakes are so high. You know, the kick lands, you're a hero. The kick misses-

Robin Black 50:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:08 ... and you get caught with a left hook, you're a loser. You know, there's just so much at stake with every single choice you make and all, all those choices have to be almost subconscious or semi-conscious because you've got to be in the zen state. You got to be flowing, so e- everything has to be prepared. You have to have, you know, a m- n- d- while you're in there, you have to have no regrets. You have to be able to just flow.

Robin Black 50:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:30 And you have to be able to capitalize on any movement, any, any opening you see, you gotta pounce. And you have to be in condition to execute all these things, so you have to have had the physical discipline and the mental fortitude to push yourself through training to a level that you probably didn't think you could get to.

Robin Black 50:46 And, and I wanna pounce with the opening, but what if it's a lie?

Joe Rogan 50:50 Right. Right, right.

Robin Black 50:50 Right? Like, with ... What if Matt Brown's li- line on that thing-

Joe Rogan 50:54 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 50:54 ... was actually ... That one would be hard to be a lie, but there are other ones-

Joe Rogan 50:57 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 50:57 ... where it feels like that one little opening, but instead, TJ's gonna catch you or Cody's lined you up to draw you into something.

Joe Rogan 51:02 Well, Cody's so goddamn fast too. His hand speed is so ridiculously fast. I go back to the Thomas Almeida fight, and Almeida's really never been the same again.

Robin Black 51:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:11 Almeida, going into that fight, was undefeated, was thought to be the dark horse in the division. Like, well, like a future world champion, and Cody lit him up like a Christmas tree.

Robin Black 51:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:20 And the way he did it was so definitive that you're like, "Jesus." Like, there could be no doubt this guy has real world championship potential.

Robin Black 51:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:29 You know? And I think that the Duane Ludwig factor is so fucking huge. I really, really do.

Robin Black 51:35 Me too.

Joe Rogan 51:35 And I, I, I've seen Duane's work and, like, Duane, unlike a lotta guys, has notebooks, like binders full of ideas and his system is a, it's a very declared system. It's not, like, loosely based. Like, "We always work off the jab. We got good footwork." No, it's none of that. No.

Robin Black 51:57 No.

Joe Rogan 51:57 Like, there's a system to his ... Like, he has a belt system to his style. And his style is based on, for people who don't know, uh, Duane was a world class kickboxer.

Robin Black 52:09 Yep.

Joe Rogan 52:09 World class Muay Thai fighter. I mean, he fought Ramon Dekkers. I mean, he fought some of the best of the best. Had some amazing fights in both MMA and-

Robin Black 52:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:16 ... kickboxing. And he was a really talented guy, and then transitioned on to being a coach. And the obsession that he has towards coaching is really at a higher level than even his obsession towards fighting. And he talks about that, that his passion is teaching people. He loves it.

Robin Black 52:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:34 He loves being able to mold students. And he's found the perfect muse, or the perfect-

Robin Black 52:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:40 ... willing, uh, participant in TJ. And TJ and him have a very unique friendship and a r- very unique student mentorship sort of relationship. It's really, really interesting to watch the two of them together.

Robin Black 52:53 At Wild Now, the, the super gym with 20 guys, and then you've got, uh ... And all ... Duane has tons of athletes too, but a, but a c- commitment and connection to TJ. Then you got Matt Hume and Demetrious. Like, you've got a few-

Joe Rogan 53:05 Yeah. Yep.

Robin Black 53:05 ... of these guys who are just, like, "We ... You ... We will funnel all of my experience through everything through this super athlete."

Joe Rogan 53:13 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 53:13 But like you about those books, uh, the only way that you get to a point of this level of mastery that we're talking about is that you must go down some fucking road for six months that amounts to nothing so that you learn that road isn't the road.

Joe Rogan 53:29 Yeah.

Robin Black 53:29 And the only way ... And you can't give up too early, and what if by going down it long enough, some different concept about how you switch your feet in a certain moment, you think maybe that ain't it. But you have discovered that by pushing through some of these concepts long enough, you find it.

Joe Rogan 53:44 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 53:44 So you stick with it long enough and it turns out, no, Duane and, or anybody else reaching that level of mastery has gone down some rabbit hole for months or years and discovered the only value they got out of it was ... Well, no, there's lots of value. That wasn't the rabbit hole. And the, the process of searching this rabbit hole has made me better at searching rabbit holes.

Joe Rogan 54:03 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 54:03 So those two values, some of the stacks of his books are things that didn't work.

Joe Rogan 54:08 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 54:08 And he will probably appreciate those just as much as any of the ones that did.

Joe Rogan 54:11 There's also ... TJ's approach is really interesting to me because TJ is obsessed with improvement and knowledge, and he keeps talking about his fight IQ. And, you know, him and Duane, I've been around them, I've trained with them, I've worked out with them, I've watched him coach TJ, and I mean, they're, they're constantly working on the minutia. They're constantly working on finite details and, and, and, and improving every single aspect and tightening things up. And it's really interes-

Robin Black 54:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:40 And TJ's a fucking open book, man.

Robin Black 54:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:42 I mean, he's a, he's, he ... You can talk to that guy about anything and he's considering it and he's thinking. And he's like, "Oh, okay. I see what you're doing. I see what you're doing." Like, he's, he's a guy who's always trying to take in information.

Robin Black 54:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:55 You know?

Robin Black 54:56 That's, that's so ... These are the things when we do watch-... this kind of thing. Whether it is martial arts or even y- jazz or football, whatever, there are these lessons that are there. Like, we should do that.

Joe Rogan 55:10 Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Black 55:11 Like, we're supposed to go through life doing that. We're not supposed to-

Joe Rogan 55:13 Yep.

Robin Black 55:13 ... look at TJ Dillashaw and go, "Wow, isn't that crazy, that guy?" If we do that, our lives will get better, right?

Joe Rogan 55:19 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Robin Black 55:19 Like, uh, I, I got to... So I, I get to work for TSN in Canada, which is like ESPN in the States. And we... I'm... Myself and Aaron Brodenstedter are like, the two-person division that talks about, about, uh, UFC and fighting. And, uh, we, the... They went and when George was fighting Michael, they went and said, you know, "Could you approach..." "You're friends with George and his people, could you approach them about doing a half-hour long documentary on him? About his comeback and training and stuff." And I did and at first, George was open to it and his, um... Rudolph, his manager, was like, "Oh, God. I hear the word documentary and I know what that means. It's gonna be months and there's gonna be cameras and it's gonna be a, a, um, distraction." I said, "I'll just travel with George and I have the best producer, Simon, the best producer we have, and we'll just travel with him." And they said yes. And so I got to travel with George for a month, six weeks, off and on-

Joe Rogan 56:11 Wow.

Robin Black 56:11 ... New York, LA, Montreal, life, eating ice cream, training with Freddie Roach.

Joe Rogan 56:17 No shit.

Robin Black 56:17 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:18 That must have been interesting.

Robin Black 56:19 And fuck.

Joe Rogan 56:19 When is this gonna come out?

Robin Black 56:20 Uh, it did come out before, so mostly in Canada.

Joe Rogan 56:23 I need to go watch that. How do I get that?

Robin Black 56:23 But I'm gonna send a message, I'm gonna send a message immediately after we get off here to Simon and the rest of them and say, "Where is that right now?" And then I'll, I'll tweet it out because it-

Joe Rogan 56:31 You could learn a lot from a guy like that.

Robin Black 56:33 Oh, oh man, it changed my life. Like-

Joe Rogan 56:34 Really?

Robin Black 56:35 Yeah. Because you don't get to be around the greats of the greats and study them, and we're friends.

Joe Rogan 56:41 Yeah.

Robin Black 56:42 So I can talk to him, like we hang out. He... I got to fucking train karate with his team, like c- point karate, you know?

Joe Rogan 56:48 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 56:48 So he'd be, "Oh, Robbin's training with us today."

Joe Rogan 56:50 What kind of point karate training do they do? And do they-

Robin Black 56:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:53 ... do this to practice like, blitzing and-

Robin Black 56:54 Yep.

Joe Rogan 56:55 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 56:55 And just think of this, like, and I... You were big on point karate like, 2012, 2013.

Joe Rogan 57:01 Yeah.

Robin Black 57:01 And I didn't disagree, but I didn't really get... Oh, there it is.

Joe Rogan 57:05 There it is, the mind of GSP.

Robin Black 57:06 Yeah, there it is. Yeah. It, uh... Oh fuck, it was so magical to see. Like, and I wasn't just like, "How does he kick?" I'm like, "How does he think?"

Joe Rogan 57:13 Mm-hmm. Right.

Robin Black 57:13 "And... Why does he do the things he does? And why, what's his motivation?" And it really made me a better human being, getting to do that. But, um, so what I didn't really connect to is s- sometimes there's something so simple and we don't see it because we're in, we're deep in a whatever we're in. But the idea of point karate, um, people right away say, "Well, they're just touching each other." It's like, true. So if I'm training to just touch you, I'm not training to hurt you. Okay, that seems like that's not valuable. Yeah but you're training to not let me even fucking touch you.

Joe Rogan 57:43 Right.

Robin Black 57:43 If you can't get touched by me, how hard, impossible is it for me to hit you clean?

Joe Rogan 57:48 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 57:48 You know what I mean? If your movement and your, your defensive systems and your management of the, of the distance between our weapons and targets are such that I can't fucking touch you, how can I hurt you?

Joe Rogan 58:00 Right.

Robin Black 58:00 If I can't even like, get, touch you with my glove.

Joe Rogan 58:02 Well, the thing is, here's what I think about point fighting and what I, what I think was valid about it, i- is if you're just doing point fighting with a point fighter, it is extremely frustrating. I fought in point fighting tournaments when I was competing and we, there was... I came from a full contact Taekwondo background, and we fought in these tournaments and the object was to knock people unconscious. And you would fight, you know, they were three minute rounds-

Robin Black 58:27 Yep.

Joe Rogan 58:27 ... and you would fight and you would try to kick people into another dimension.

Robin Black 58:30 I fought very similar in Canada when I was a kid.

Joe Rogan 58:32 Yeah. The... What we... There was a lot of people that I trained with that openly dismissed point fighting. And the reason why they openly dismissed point fighting was because they would stop every time someone would get touched.

Robin Black 58:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:43 And I would be like, "Well, in the real world..." Or everybody would say, "In the real world, you don't just stop when you get touched, you keep fighting." And so with our techniques, a lot of it, you would hit someone once and they would counter, and then you'd set up the big shot afterwards. Like, this is part of the thing. And if the, the referee kept stopping you, then you would never get anything done. But my thinking, once I got into MMA, was, "Okay, yeah, but if you can do that and do the other things."

Robin Black 59:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:12 It's like, people dismiss Taekwondo because they're like, "Well, Taekwondo, e- you know, you get taken to the ground, you get your legs kicked out." Absolutely. But if you have take-down defense and you know Muay Thai, you can wheel-kick someone into another fucking dimension. And we saw that with Edson Barboza versus Terry Adam. We've seen these Taekwondo techniques manifest themselves in MMA and you realize like, "Oh, th- these are some of the most powerful things you could do to a person inside a cage." But when you see the point fighting style, the like, the Raymond Daniels or the Michael Venom Page-

Robin Black 59:48 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 59:48 ... this ability to blitz.

Robin Black 59:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:50 If they can do those other things too, this is another, another level. There's something to it. So as a fighter, I wasn't willing to dismiss point fighting because I had been lied to already. I, when I went and f- took Taekwondo and then started kickboxing, first American kickboxing above the waist, first thing I realized was how easy it was for me to get punched in the face. I was like, "Oh, okay." Now if I'm trapped in this ring and I can't go anywhere and someone's throwing punches and I don't understand how to get away from them, and I'm used to this Taekwondo style-

Robin Black 1:00:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:20 ... of having your hands down low, I'm getting fucked up. So I've been lied to.

Robin Black 1:00:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:23 Taekwondo is not the best martial art. It's-

Robin Black 1:00:25 None of them are.

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 Yeah, there's no... Exactly. None of them are.

Robin Black 1:00:28 Exactly. There is no best martial art.

Joe Rogan 1:00:29 But there's something absolutely legit about that blitz...

Robin Black 1:00:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:34 ... that karate blitz...

Robin Black 1:00:35 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:00:35 ... that some of these guys can do. And I fought some really good guys in those karate style tournaments and, and I got an ass made out of me.

Robin Black 1:00:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 I mean, you, you don't know what to do. Like, and if... You get kicked and then the referee's, "Point!" And you're like, "Ugh." You don't have a chance to fire back because they're separating you guys. And I, I really absorbed those lessons and I was like, in MMA, that ability to close the distance... Because every... In MMA, there's so many guys, and Conor talked about this, there's so many guys that have this Muay Thai stance and they're, they're presenting this very predictable target-

Robin Black 1:01:09 They can.

Joe Rogan 1:01:09 ... standing right in front of each other. And I think-... this stance, and especially this, the, uh, change, the, the, the forward stance is one of the reasons why Vitor has been caught knocked out twice with front kicks-

Robin Black 1:01:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:21 ... 'cause he squares off. Uh, Vitor explained this to me in like, shit, 1997 when I was training at Carlson Gracies. He was explaining that, you know, some kickboxers are going to have a hard time in MMA even though they're really good kickboxers because the MMA stance-

Robin Black 1:01:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 ... you really have to square off more.

Robin Black 1:01:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 You can't stand like this. You can't stand like a boxer. And a kickboxer is a little more open than a boxer-

Robin Black 1:01:48 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:01:48 ... but then MMA is a little more open than that.

Robin Black 1:01:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:50 He's like, "You almost have to be square." But that square leaves you open to front kicks to the face and then ster- turning side kicks and side kicks to the body. Think about what Vitor's been dropped with.

Robin Black 1:02:00 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 Jon Jones dropped him with a side kick to the body.

Robin Black 1:02:03 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 Um, Sakuraba dropped him with a turning side kick to the body.

Robin Black 1:02:06 Yeah. Two front kicks to the face.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 Two front kicks to the face.

Robin Black 1:02:07 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:02:07 It's because he presents this square thing. But to him, this is sprawl-

Robin Black 1:02:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:12 ... and throw punches and throw that, th- the like the blitz that he used on Wanderlei Silva.

Robin Black 1:02:16 Yeah. And it worked-

Joe Rogan 1:02:17 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:02:17 ... through much of his career. He either won with it or lost with it.

Joe Rogan 1:02:20 Yes.

Robin Black 1:02:20 And I, and I respect that thinking. But those types of doctrines, like, is literally ... And in martial arts, in day-to-day life, in anything, if you think anything is the thing, you're totally wrong.

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 Right. Right.

Robin Black 1:02:34 Because if we all agree it's the thing, then we're all acting like it's the thing, then we all start ignoring other things and those things will work.

Joe Rogan 1:02:40 Yep.

Robin Black 1:02:41 So if you have to... If MMA you have to square up, all of a sudden some gu- some Conor-

Joe Rogan 1:02:46 Right.

Robin Black 1:02:46 ... comes out with a different thing-

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:02:47 ... and you were wrong.

Joe Rogan 1:02:48 Wonderboy Thompson.

Robin Black 1:02:48 Yeah. The, the guard is the one that is glaring to me right now because, and I mean I've talked to some of the smartest and the best, and they will ... And we do this over and over again. And we do it in everything. You know, remember when you d- you're, you cannot cross your feet when you do an arm bar?

Joe Rogan 1:03:05 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:03:05 Do you remember that early on?

Joe Rogan 1:03:06 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:03:06 Like what the fuck?

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Black 1:03:07 What are you talking about?

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 Now everybody does it. (laughs)

Robin Black 1:03:09 Or, yeah. The head kicks don't work in MMA.

Joe Rogan 1:03:11 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:03:11 Like, uh, you know, this has been going on forever.

Joe Rogan 1:03:14 Forever.

Robin Black 1:03:14 So any absolute decision that this is a fundamental rule is completely r- that's where you're gonna get fucked.

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 Yeah. I mean how about the low calf kick?

Robin Black 1:03:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 I mean the l- Benson Henderson was, in my opinion, the first guy to bring it to MMA.

Robin Black 1:03:28 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 And he started doing that back in the day. But not at the effectiveness, the level of effectiveness, that we're seeing now. That low calf kick is fucking people up.

Robin Black 1:03:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:36 It's really interesting.

Robin Black 1:03:38 And then they'll adapt-

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:03:39 ... and then it won't work, but that adaptation will put something else, uh, available.

Joe Rogan 1:03:43 I think the problem with the low calf kick is that you really can't condition the lower part of your leg the same way you can your thighs. And I think it's gonna keep working. I think it's gonna be-

Robin Black 1:03:53 But then we have to not get hit by it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 Exactly.

Robin Black 1:03:54 So we'll make a change-

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:03:55 ... to not get hit by it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:57 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:03:57 Once we do, that'll force us to do something else that someone will take advantage of.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Just, it's amazing how quickly it works. Like if you see a guy get hit with a brutal leg kick-

Robin Black 1:04:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 ... like it takes one or two and then they start-

Robin Black 1:04:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 ... to feel it. There's something about the first low calf kick, you see guys wobbly.

Robin Black 1:04:11 Like that, that muscle is like really, the-

Joe Rogan 1:04:14 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:04:14 ... the insertion at the bottom is-

Joe Rogan 1:04:15 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:04:15 ... so small.

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 It's also the nerves.

Robin Black 1:04:18 And it's taking so ... And it's taking so much work.

Joe Rogan 1:04:19 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:04:20 Like it's carrying so much.

Joe Rogan 1:04:21 Yep.

Robin Black 1:04:22 Yeah. It's, it's ... And these are when things work beautifully. And again, like I used to take anything we'd talk about and I'd r- bring it back to fighting. Now I tend to take anything in fighting and I try to figure out what it means in life.

Joe Rogan 1:04:34 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:04:34 Like I've kind of sw- over time of study I've started to, to do that. Right? And this is true of this kick and it's true of anything.

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:04:42 It's like th- w- it works best when the physiological truth, that calf is small and weak and-

Joe Rogan 1:04:49 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:04:49 ... and thin, works with the systemic issue. He's got his foot there and the way he's standing is such that you can hit it. Two, those two things together are making that thing work right now.

Joe Rogan 1:04:59 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:04:59 If you t- what ... You can't change the strength of the calf. So the only thing we can change is how available that calf kick is if we don't want-

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:05:06 ... to get hit with it. So we must change that. And if we do, we've changed a lot of different things and now something else is available that Dwayne or Duke or somebody else is already-

Joe Rogan 1:05:16 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:05:16 ... planning how to, how to take advantage that you've made that adaptation.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:05:20 And that, that is, for me, what is eternally fascinating about martial arts. But again, that's, those are the lessons of life that are there. If you can't see that the world around you has changed dramatically and you act as if it's the same, uh, you get fucked up.

Joe Rogan 1:05:35 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:05:35 You will get fucked up.

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 You know, I, um, I bring this to Paul Daley versus Jon Fitch because, um, that fight was extremely frustrating to Paul Daley and, uh, frustrating to a lot of people that were watching it too. 'Cause Jon Fitch was just able to take him down and, and kind of do what Jon Fitch does and, and hit him on the ground and kind of beat him up and control the position and, and, you know, at the end of the fight Paul's yelling, "Boo."

Robin Black 1:05:59 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:59 He's, he's ... It was, it was so strange. You know? And, but this is a guy that if you just stand with him, he's going to fuck you up. Like if you just decide to trade shots with Paul Daley on your feet, he's got a left hand that is a goddamn nuclear missile. You know? And he ... Basically everybody he hits with that thing goes night-night.

Robin Black 1:06:19 It's scary.

Joe Rogan 1:06:19 Even Lorenz Larkin-

Robin Black 1:06:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:20 ... who's a seasoned striker, he got clipped by that left hand. It's like yoo-hoo.

Robin Black 1:06:25 The ability to make, generate and create that amount of impact is elegant.

Joe Rogan 1:06:30 It's elegant. Yeah.

Robin Black 1:06:31 It's like it, it's, it's like we, we ... Our human bodies and minds don't do all that many things that are that unbelievably beautiful and rooted in our history as human beings.

Joe Rogan 1:06:41 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:06:42 You know what I mean? This is at the basis of what it was to survive and protect and expand and stuff. And you see it right there when Paul Daley hits somebody.

Joe Rogan 1:06:51 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:06:51 Like it's unreal. The opposite of that scenario is, um, Johnny Hendricks was fighting Stephen Thompson. And S- and Johnny Hendricks wanted ... When Stephen would come in, he wanted to drill him with hooks and upper cuts-

Joe Rogan 1:07:03 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:07:03 ... and then get to his body and take him down and do what, what, uh, uh, Jon Fitch did. But Stephen's like-... you're not doing that. And after he kicked him and beat him up at distance, and then finished the fight, Johnny was, uh, was being interviewed and he's like, "Well, it wasn't my night." And it... and Johnny is a classy guy over all, over the, the length of his career. He sometimes gets heat, but who cares, right? Like, the, the opinion of other people shouldn't matter to Johnny Hendricks. But Johnny said after, he's like, "Well, I was kind of hoping he'd come in and trade a little more." It's like, why the fuck would he do that?

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 That's not his style.

Robin Black 1:07:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:35 That's, that's a ridiculous thing to hope for.

Robin Black 1:07:36 And that's what you want.

Joe Rogan 1:07:37 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:07:37 He wants to do what you don't want.

Joe Rogan 1:07:39 Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Black 1:07:39 The whole goal is to do something that benefits him in this scenario and does not benefit you...

Joe Rogan 1:07:44 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:07:44 ... which would be exactly what he did.

Joe Rogan 1:07:46 Which is why, what brings me back to the Paul Daley Jon Fitch fight. Like, this is the answer to that style. Mm-hmm. The answer to that style is take you down and not ever let you get up. And, and force Jon Fitch's game on you, which is what makes fighting so interesting. If Jon Fitch had just decided to go cowboy and bite down his mouthpiece and just wing punches at Paul Daley until one of them went to sleep, that would've been a great fight for Paul Daley.

Robin Black 1:08:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:12 Great fight.

Robin Black 1:08:13 Which, um, when Nick Diaz and Paul Daley did that, remember that?

Joe Rogan 1:08:16 Yes. Yes.

Robin Black 1:08:16 I mean, that was pretty epic.

Joe Rogan 1:08:17 Fucking amazing. Yeah.

Robin Black 1:08:18 And that only happens... Again, you're creating a moment, and it only happens because Nick was motivated by who he is in that moment.

Joe Rogan 1:08:28 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:08:28 He wasn't motivated by strategy even necessarily.

Joe Rogan 1:08:30 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:08:30 He's like, "Fuck you."

Joe Rogan 1:08:32 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:08:32 Like-

Joe Rogan 1:08:33 (laughs)

Robin Black 1:08:33 ... "Fuck you."

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 Exactly.

Robin Black 1:08:35 And, and, and, and that, however people will, like, look at that, that is again, it is an expression of the individuality, the authentic truth of who Nick Diaz is.

Joe Rogan 1:08:44 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:08:45 That's why that's art.

Joe Rogan 1:08:46 Mm-hmm.

Robin Black 1:08:46 You know, we were just talking art and fight, that's a fight.

Joe Rogan 1:08:49 This was a great... And he got clipped-

Robin Black 1:08:51 That's a, a fight, but that's-

Joe Rogan 1:08:51 Let's watch a little bit of this here, man.

Robin Black 1:08:53 Yeah, look at this.

Joe Rogan 1:08:53 Because he just, he just kept the pace.

Robin Black 1:08:56 He's just refusing.

Joe Rogan 1:08:57 Yeah. Paul just got too tired too quick.

Robin Black 1:08:59 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:59 He was, he was winging big shots. And look at Nick just-

Robin Black 1:09:03 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:09:03 Right there, see?

Robin Black 1:09:04 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:04 He got clipped.

Robin Black 1:09:05 That's his left hook you're talking about.

Joe Rogan 1:09:06 Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Black 1:09:07 This is over, okay? It's over. There, we're done. No.

Joe Rogan 1:09:09 But, no-

Robin Black 1:09:09 Because Nick won't be done.

Joe Rogan 1:09:10 Yeah, well, I mean, who knows?

Robin Black 1:09:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:12 Maybe if Paul was in better condition.

Robin Black 1:09:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:14 But this is the end, the end is Nick just battering him.

Robin Black 1:09:18 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:18 It's crazy that he beat him-

Robin Black 1:09:19 It's crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:09:19 ... in a striking contest.

Robin Black 1:09:20 Yeah, yeah. But he did it with will. He was always a great boxer.

Joe Rogan 1:09:24 Yep.

Robin Black 1:09:25 But, I mean, and a- again, we're, this, we're... this is a metaphor for life. Like, you got a wall-

Joe Rogan 1:09:30 That was one of the greatest victories ever.

Robin Black 1:09:32 Yeah, it's a fucking unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 1:09:33 It really was. That was, that's the quintessential Nick Diaz fight.

Robin Black 1:09:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:36 Look at him, look at him. (laughs)

Robin Black 1:09:37 Yeah. I know, right? Uh, and there are people who don't like him-

Joe Rogan 1:09:41 Oh, I love that guy.

Robin Black 1:09:42 Me too, because that... What we're, what we're searching for, I think, is we are trying to be authentically who we are.

Joe Rogan 1:09:49 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:09:49 I think that's all we're doing.

Joe Rogan 1:09:50 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:09:50 That's what Nick Diaz is. Whatever the fuck you think he is-

Joe Rogan 1:09:53 Yep.

Robin Black 1:09:53 ... he is authentically Nick Diaz.

Joe Rogan 1:09:55 Yeah.

Robin Black 1:09:55 And w-... and the metaphor to me is Paul Daley is a wall. And you can, you can dig under it, or you can go around it,