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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

JRE MMA Show #30 with Sean O'Malley & Tim Welch

Joe is joined by UFC Bantamweight fighter "Sugar" Sean O'Malley & welterweight fighter & coach Tim Welch.

"Sugar" Sean O'MalleyguestJoe RoganhostTim WelchguestGuest (third participant, likely in-studio friend/producer)guest
Jun 6, 20183h 32mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:42

    Montana roots, easy amateur fights, and why Phoenix is the real training hub

    1. "O

      Sugar.

    2. JR

      Three, two, one. (hand slaps) And we're live. Sugar Sean and, uh, Tim Welch, your friend-

    3. "O

      Yes.

    4. JR

      ... that you brought with you here today.

    5. "O

      Friend, teammate, coach, brother.

    6. JR

      Both of you from Montana. Montana people, it's good, it's a good place.

    7. TW

      Yeah, it is. But for what we do, it's not the best place. (laughs)

    8. "O

      (laughs)

    9. JR

      Yeah, how much training can you get in Montana? It's not, not the best spot. Like, when I was there, uh, two years ago, pheasant hunting with Anthony Bourdain, and that guy is such a maniac. He trains everywhere he goes every day, and he found some club, some local jujitsu club in Montana, in Bozeman, and was rolling with people.

    10. "O

      Brian Dietz probably.

    11. TW

      Yeah, Bozeman's probably one of the better places to train, but the one thing good about being from Montana is when we were in Phoenix, it's like a big process getting a fight. Sugar, how many amateur fights you have?

    12. "O

      Yeah, I had 14 MMA fights, uh, amateur MMA fights, four kickboxing, couple boxing. It was every weekend. I could-

    13. JR

      In Montana?

    14. "O

      ... fight every weekend. Yeah.

    15. JR

      So Montana people are just angry, just wanna (smacks lips) fight.

    16. TW

      You can-

    17. "O

      We just like to fight.

    18. JR

      They're just mad.

    19. TW

      You can sign up that week and fight, so you can get-

    20. "O

      (sighs)

    21. TW

      ... a ton of fights-

    22. "O

      No commission.

    23. TW

      ... no commission.

    24. JR

      No commission? Oh, that's good.

    25. TW

      So you can fight.

    26. JR

      So it's a manly place, that Montana.

    27. TW

      (laughs) Yeah, it is.

    28. JR

      It is. It's quite manly. I mean, you guys have grizzly bears and shit, lots of elk.

    29. TW

      Oh, yeah. (laughs) Yep.

    30. JR

      Elk, grizzly bears, wolves, you know. I was there, uh, two summers ago, I went, and just was like, "Man, I need to figure out a way how to spend more time here." I was in Bozeman.

  2. 1:42 – 3:50

    Inside The MMA Lab: coaching culture, accountability, and training with killers

    1. "O

      Um, being in Phoenix is like... I wouldn't, I don't wanna be anywhere else. I love being in Phoenix. The training there is insane.

    2. TW

      Yeah, where we're at, Phoenix is like the fucking Mecca, man. Like, we get to train with Augusto Mendes, Tiquinho every day. Like, he beat Rafa Mendes. He beat Cabrinho. He beat-

    3. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    4. TW

      ... Ryan Hall. He's-

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. TW

      ... beat all these people. And almost every mile, there's a really good gym, like boxing gym, jujitsu gym, wrestling gym. Henry Cejudo-

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. TW

      ... has a club there. The MMA Lab with Jon Crouch, like, where we train-

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. TW

      ... there's killers everywhere.

    11. JR

      Yeah, that's one of the best spots in the world for sure. Phoenix is, uh... There's a few hotbeds for MMA. Obviously, LA is a big one. Miami's a big one. Phoenix is a fucking huge one too, though.

    12. TW

      Yeah. Yeah, the Lab, like, (sighs) it's, it's a different type of gym than a lot of other gyms. I haven't seen many gyms, like, stay together, and I think a big reason is 'cause of Jon Crouch. He's, like, one of the best facilitators out there. He keeps everyone together. If you don't show up to practice, he'll text you and say, "Hey, where you at? We gotta get our priorities straight." And like-

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. TW

      ... he really holds everyone accountable, and I think that's why it makes it a really good, strong place.

    15. JR

      Yeah, he's one of my favorite coaches. He's, uh, he's just a super no-nonsense guy, never blows his own horn, not looking for any attention, and absolutely knows his shit. Like, when you hear him in the corner, he knows his shit.

    16. TW

      Yeah, he's good to have there in the corner, man. He just, uh, be the leader kind of of everything and look over everything. And like he brought up Benson from when he was a small, like just starting-

    17. "O

      Just beginning, yeah.

    18. TW

      ... so it's like we're lucky to be able to learn after that. And then be around Benson in the room, like, he- he's got a work ethic like no other, like there's no other.

    19. JR

      Is Benson still joining the military? I heard he was thinking about joining the military.

    20. TW

      I think he's too old now.

    21. JR

      Is he?

    22. "O

      Does he?

    23. TW

      Yeah.

    24. "O

      I don't know.

    25. JR

      He's too old. He's 34.

    26. "O

      I think so. I remember hearing about that too.

    27. JR

      How old... What is the limit? I thought you could join the military, like, up to, like, 36 or some shit.

    28. GF

      I feel like once you get across a certain age, they have to make an exception for you.

    29. JR

      Oh.

    30. "O

      I'm sure he would make that exception. (laughs)

  3. 3:50 – 6:18

    Creativity under pressure: Sean’s flow-state style and learning from Conor

    1. JR

      Yeah, I mean, that is one of the most important qua- like, there's a bunch of important qualities in a fighter, right? Um, being able to perform under pressure, uh, creativity. Creativity is big. I think that's one of the way- places that you excel. You really excel in creativity. Like, when I watch you fight, I'm like, "This kid's fucking around out there." Like, you're having fun. You- you're flowing. You know, when you were telling me today, we were, uh, doing a little practicing. You were saying that you were doing some stuff in fights where you just thought of it. Like, while-

    2. TW

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      ... you were doing it, you just felt like doing it. Like, there's people that can do that, and there's people that never do that.

    4. TW

      Right.

    5. JR

      You know, when they're in the fight, they're tightened up, and they're fucking sticking to the script and maybe even sticking to, like, the real basics, you know?

    6. "O

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      Like, barely even speaking in sentences.

    8. "O

      Right.

    9. JR

      You know what I mean?

    10. "O

      I think, I think a lot of people think too much when they're in there, and it's easier to say... Um, I feel like when I'm in there, I'm reacting. I'm letting my, letting my, all my training take over. I'm not really thinking. I'm just reacting to what they're doing, and I think that helps me do what I've been doing is just reacting to certain situations. And I just feel like I'm gonna step ahead of them. Whoever I'm fighting, I feel like I'm a step ahead of them.

    11. TW

      He's really good at, like, the greater the chaos, the calmer he becomes, and that's the-

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. TW

      ... that's the truth. The bigger, the brighter the lights are, the more he's shining and completely calm. And before that last fight against, uh, Andre, we watched probably four of Conor's fights right before we walked to-

    14. "O

      Oh, yeah.

    15. TW

      ... the arena. And Sugar's sitting there zoning in on those fights, watching the way he walks out, watching the way he's good with his energy, smart with his energy. And, uh, you can really see it in the fight, the way he mimics him. And Sugar can watch someone s- someone do something, and he can do it right away. It's a really cool talent.

    16. "O

      Yeah, before the last couple fights, um, before we go to the arena, we just throw on Fight Pass, watch Conor, watch him walk out, watch, just watch him, his body language. And Conor's... He's the man. I love Conor. I've always loved Conor since, since wa- like, I remember watching his first fight against... What was his first, like, Max Holloway? Was that his first one in the UFC?

    17. JR

      In the UFC, yeah.

    18. "O

      Remember watching him, and I'm like, "That dude's gonna be good."

    19. JR

      I think that was his first fight. He blew his ACL out in that fight.

    20. TW

      Yep.

    21. "O

      Maybe that wasn't his first. Maybe it-

    22. JR

      I don't think it was.

    23. "O

      ... was it Brimage? No.

    24. JR

      Might have been Marcus Brimage.

    25. "O

      Was it?

    26. JR

      Yeah.

    27. TW

      I think that's what it was.

    28. "O

      Brimage?

    29. JR

      Was it?

    30. TW

      Yeah, yeah.

  4. 6:18 – 9:52

    Fight fan breakdowns: Holloway’s ceiling, Gaethje chaos, and elite durability

    1. "O

      I remember he came down to the lab once. I didn't re- ... We just kind of played around, sparred, but he's ... I'm, I'm excited for that. He's fighting Ortega next.

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. "O

      July 7th, yeah?

    4. JR

      Yes. Very, I'm very excited about that.

    5. "O

      I'm hoping I get in, get, get in there. I hope we can get some tickets. That's gonna be sweet.

    6. JR

      Yeah. Dude, I'll hook you up.

    7. "O

      (sighs) oh my God.

    8. JR

      He's, he's fascinating to me, uh, Max, because he's just this guy that like, I knew he was really good, and then he just kept getting better, and kept getting better. I'm like, "Where's the ceiling on this guy?" And then you saw in the Aldo fight, when he beat Aldo the first time, and then the second time. And the second time, you're like, "Jesus Christ." Like, you, you, you really don't know how good a guy is. Like, you see them in a fight and you go, "Wow, he's really good." But then you don't see him for a while and you're like, "Is he better? Has he slipped? Is he, is he training hard?" Like, where is he at?

    9. "O

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JR

      Like, you don't know until you see him again. And then when I saw him in that second Aldo fight, I'm like, "Jesus, he's so much better than he was before."

    11. "O

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      He, he yelled at the end of the first round, he looked over at us and he goes, "The man's tired!"

    13. "O

      (laughs)

    14. JR

      Like, at the end of the first round. I was like, "Jesus."

    15. "O

      That's awesome.

    16. JR

      He was hit- ... And Aldo was throwing bricks at him. He was really throwing hard in that first round to try to like, establish-

    17. "O

      Did he catch him?

    18. JR

      ... some distance.

    19. "O

      At all?

    20. JR

      He hit him with some shots, but he-

    21. "O

      I think rock-

    22. JR

      I mean, he hits hard, but he didn't rock him. You know, Aldo-

    23. "O

      How many times has Max lost?

    24. JR

      He's only lo- ... Well, in the UFC, um, he lost to Dennis Bermudez.

    25. "O

      Conor.

    26. JR

      Somewhere early in his career. He lost to Conor. I think he only has two or three losses in his career. Three?

    27. "O

      Three.

    28. JR

      Three losses. Who are they to? Does it say?

    29. TW

      And Dustin Poirier.

    30. JR

      Dustin Poirier.

  5. 9:52 – 13:24

    Nutrition as performance: ditching junk food, keto experiments, and the vegan backlash

    1. TW

      He has super positive, good mentality and I think a lot of that comes from eating good and having the right rest and r- hydrating, and eating good year round.

    2. JR

      Right.

    3. "O

      Mm-hmm.

    4. TW

      Not just eating good during fight camps and blowing up and-

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. TW

      ... I think that's a lot to do with it.

    7. JR

      For sure.

    8. "O

      Living that lifestyle, just eating healthy, like you said, all year round, not just getting healthy for six weeks and then eating like shit after and getting injured. Uh, once I f- really started learning about eating healthy, a ton of small little injuries went away.

    9. JR

      Mm, my back would hurt every morning because I- What were you doing wrong before? Like what were you eating?

    10. "O

      Pop Tarts.

    11. JR

      Oh, sugar.

    12. "O

      Like fucking just anything shitty-

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. "O

      I don't know. Hot Pockets.

    15. JR

      Right.

    16. "O

      Top Ramen, any, all of that stuff that I was just raised eating, you know. And once I started realizing what that stuff's doing to my body and how I could feel it-

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. "O

      ... it changed, changed my whole mindset. W- and r- likek, eating healthy was one of the biggest things that improved my skills e- as a fighter, I feel like, just m- as far as my mental thoughts. Um, my training sessions were so much better.

    19. JR

      Were you just saying that you eat a lot of sardines?

    20. "O

      (laughs) No, I said I ate some sardines last night and then I had uh, some this morning.

    21. JR

      That is a very good food.

    22. TW

      Yeah.

    23. "O

      (laughs)

    24. TW

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      Believe it or not. I mean ...

    26. "O

      I know they are, yeah.

    27. TW

      Dude, we're so, so lucky to have the internet and podcasts and be able to learn from guys like you-

    28. JR

      (sighs)

    29. TW

      ... Dr. Andy Galpin, like Aubrey Marcus.

    30. "O

      Mm-hmm.

  6. 13:24 – 29:02

    How Sean and Tim met: couch-crashing, brutal pro practices, and rapid evolution

    1. JR

      Now, how do you guys know each other? How'd you guys meet?

    2. "O

      Ooh, good story. Go ahead.

    3. TW

      I, uh, I was going to commentate, uh, I was with Bellator at the time and going back to Montana to commentate for some fights. And, uh, Sean-

    4. JR

      What were you doing for Bellator?

    5. TW

      Fighting for them. Yeah. And I went to commentate some local fights up there, and I saw Sean and he was s-

    6. "O

      I was 18.

    7. TW

      ... 18 at the time, and I saw him. I was like, "Damn, that kid..." Submitted a, a wrestler in the first round, and I knew at his gym he doesn't wrestle. I'm like, "That kid's got some good talent." So I invited him down after I went up to him and I said, "Hey, dude. You can stay on my couch for a little bit and come check out the gym." Kind of figured he wouldn't. And, uh-

    8. "O

      I, I remember, I remember the... He told me that. I was so jacked 'cause I knew Tim. I seen him on TV. I did- I didn't meet him in person, but I seen him on Bellator. He was on the Fight Master show. And, uh, after my fight, I... We were at the Sting Bar, like a local bar, and he came up to me and s- he, he offered me that. I remember. I think I called you the next day. I'm like, "Hey, dude. Yeah, I wanna come down." Um, we figured it out. I think I came down a few weeks later, months later. Um, I came down for 10 days, and it was the m- like one of the most... The biggest ass whooping I've ever got in my life. I remember...

    9. TW

      When we were driving from the airport, he was talking. He's like, "Yeah, me and you are going to the top." I'm like, "This kid has no idea what he's about to get himself into, taking him to the pro practices with all the people." 'Cause as soon as you get on the team, everyone fucking hammers on you.

    10. "O

      Of course.

    11. TW

      They hammers on you. They beat you. They break you down mentally to see if you're gonna come back.

    12. "O

      So I was, I was there for a full week. So Monday was striking day, Tuesday is wrestling. I literally did not know how to wrestle. I didn't know what a single leg was. Did not know anything about wrestling.

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. "O

      Um, I remember d- a good group of people just whooped me bad. I remember crying, leaving practice. It was night.

    15. JR

      Did you wrestle in high school at all?

    16. "O

      No.

    17. JR

      Nothing?

    18. "O

      Nothing.

    19. JR

      W- and you... What part of Montana are you from?

    20. "O

      Helena, the capital. Um, but yeah, I never... I... So I boxed a little bit, but I never, never wrestled. Didn't really grapple. I remember I knew one arm... I knew an arm bar off my back. It was the only thing I knew, and that's what I caught that wrestler in. I, I got him in an arm bar. I surprised... I didn't even... I was like, "Holy shit, I just did that." But anyway, I came down, got beat up bad for a week. Um, went back sa- went back to Montana. Um, saved up $2,000, packed my car, drove down. He was living with his girlfriend at the time. Um, we stayed there for two weeks, and then we got an apartment. Um, and I, I'd only known Tim a little bit, but we got an apartment close to the lab, and I just literally went every single day, twice a day.

    21. TW

      When he first showed up, he like... I was gonna s- I smoked some weed the night, and he was so taken back. He's like, "Holy shit." He looked up to me, couldn't believe that I was doing that drug.

    22. JR

      That you smoked weed? (laughs)

    23. "O

      My dad-

    24. TW

      Couldn't fucking believe it.

    25. "O

      ... my dad's a detective in, in Montana.

    26. JR

      (laughs)

    27. "O

      And I just... I was raised like weed's not good, not good. Like, that's what was going through my mind. I thought it was bad, like really bad.

    28. TW

      We'd have debates about it too.

    29. "O

      And I remember I came... Oh yeah, I remember I came down-

    30. JR

      Montana's one of the few places that went backwards with weed.

  7. 29:02 – 38:07

    Mentors, identity, and loss: Robert Follis’ influence and depression realities

    1. JR

      How did you get out of Jehovah's Witness?

    2. TW

      Uh, my parents got divorced in eighth grade. My mom moved to Canada and was still a Jehovah's Witness, and, uh, I lived with her for a while, and I just was super trapped, couldn't hang out with anyone, couldn't do any sports. And I was like, "Fuck, I have to make a decision, go with my dad and get out of the cult." And all the elders were like, "Don't do that. That's a mistake. That's a mistake." But I made decisions-

    3. JR

      Elders? They have elders too, just like the Mormons?

    4. TW

      Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I, and I made the decision, I'm gonna go move with my dad and move back to Montana. And then my dad was super into UFC, so I started wrestling and boxing when I was 14, and then on from there.

    5. JR

      My, uh, one of my wife's... Well, how do I put this without... This person I know was heavily into Mormonism, and, uh, they, they had people come over to their house that were elders, and the kid was 20. And he's like, "This is Elder Mike." I'm like, "The fuck it is."

    6. "O

      (laughs) Elder Mike. (laughs)

    7. JR

      (laughs) Like, "What are you talking about? Elder?"

    8. "O

      Elder Mike.

    9. TW

      "You're 20, dude." And... (laughs) I'm like-

    10. "O

      Go out there and get some pussy. (laughs) You're 20.

    11. TW

      (laughs)

    12. JR

      That is, that is so preposterous, you fucker.

    13. TW

      Seriously.

    14. JR

      You know, and they were, um, they were going, uh, to other countries as missionaries, you know, getting these people-

    15. "O

      Riding their bikes around.

    16. JR

      ... South America and, you know, going up to them and saying, "Hey, you know, come join the cult."

    17. "O

      I remember my dad was watching UFC when I was... I had to have been 12 or 13, and I thought it was the w-... I was like-... I, I remember telling my mom that he was watching. I told on him, like, that he's watching two guys fight. I thought it was the craziest thing ever. I hated it.

    18. JR

      (laughs)

    19. "O

      I did not like confrontation.

    20. JR

      How old were you?

    21. "O

      Like, 12, 13 years old. And I, I remember literally telling on my dad that he was watching-

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. "O

      ... the UFC.

    24. JR

      (groans)

    25. "O

      It's funny looking back on that.

    26. JR

      That's hilarious.

    27. "O

      Yeah, it was funny, though.

    28. JR

      Wow. Do you remember who was fighting?

    29. "O

      I don't. I member he, he... I remember Chuck and Tito and then Urijah, Urijah Faber. Those are the three guys, like, I remember-

    30. JR

      Their names?

  8. 38:07 – 49:49

    Meditation and routines: float tanks, morning habits, and consistency as a superpower

    1. JR

      Yeah. I do it in the tank.

    2. "O

      Ooh.

    3. JR

      Yeah.

    4. "O

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      Meditating in the tank-

    6. "O

      Do you have one in your house?

    7. JR

      I have one right here.

    8. "O

      Here? Oh, that's so sweet.

    9. TW

      Sweet.

    10. JR

      But it's-

    11. "O

      That is so sweet.

    12. JR

      ... such a fucking benefit, man.

    13. "O

      That is so sweet.

    14. JR

      For me, it's like when the world gets weird... And the world... My world's weird as fuck, man.

    15. TW

      (laughs)

    16. JR

      You know, I try to explain it to people and I'm like-

    17. TW

      (laughs)

    18. JR

      ... "It's weird being me."

    19. TW

      I bet.

    20. JR

      You know? And to, to be able to just take some time and just go, just look at it all through fresh eyes. Like, that's the place for me.

    21. TW

      Hell yeah.

    22. JR

      Get in that tank.

    23. "O

      Do an hour about? Or just-

    24. JR

      I like an hour, but I do two if I have the time. I like two hours.

    25. "O

      A two-hour session would be...

    26. JR

      Yeah. But then having it here-

    27. "O

      God, and then you can-

    28. JR

      ... is what it's all about.

    29. "O

      Oh my God.

    30. JR

      So I can just do it anytime I want.

  9. 49:49 – 1:04:25

    Weed and training: creativity, focus, recovery—and Sean’s Lisfranc injury rehab

    1. TW

      How old were you when you took your first rip ... of weed?

    2. JR

      Weed? I was 30. Well, not really. See, I'd smoked when I was younger. But it was only, like, occasionally at, like, a party, and I always felt like a loser for doing it. You know? Like, everybody else would be getting high, and I'm like, "Oh, I'll try that." And... but I was probably already drunk anyway.

    3. TW

      (laughs)

    4. JR

      You know?

    5. TW

      Yeah.

    6. JR

      Like when I was 14 or 15-

    7. TW

      Uh-huh.

    8. JR

      ... or something like that. So, maybe I smoked weed a handful of times, less than a dozen times, til I was 30. And then Eddie Bravo got me into it when I was 30 years old. We were doing jujitsu together. And, uh, he was telling me how marijuana was helping his jujitsu and helping his music and his creativity. And I was like, "What the fuck is this guy talking about?" And I'm like, "Dude, marijuana just makes you stupid." Like, "Don't you know?" You know? And he's like, "Just try it." And w- ... And h- ... He got high, and, uh, I remember thinking, like, "Oh, this is what it is." Like, "Wow. I did not know."

    9. TW

      Same. Same.

    10. JR

      I can't believe it. That feeling, like, you're like, "Wow."

    11. TW

      Were you by yourself?

    12. JR

      It's this. No, just me and Eddie.

    13. TW

      Oh, sweet.

    14. JR

      I was like, "I can't believe this." We went and got something to eat. We were talking.

    15. "O

      Giggled.

    16. JR

      Oh, yeah, we giggled like crazy.

    17. "O

      At the best.

    18. JR

      Talked about all kinds of crazy shit. And then I remember I started smoking pot and getting on stage. And then I got real ... I was getting real creative with my, my comedy, and then smoking pot and doing jujitsu. It was like, "I can't believe how zoned in it gets you with training." Smoking pot and hitting the bag, to this day, is, like, one of my all-time favorite things. I get paranoid. I get freaked out.

    19. "O

      (laughs)

    20. JR

      I get weirded out. I, I get s- ... I get freaked out. But then I just fucking wrap up my hands, put on the timer. And just once that sweat starts flowing and just start ... Huh, huh, ba, ba, ba, ba, bam.

    21. "O

      Oh.

    22. JR

      And it's almost like the paranoia and the weirdness of it all, you just fight it off by hitting that bag. Ba-ba-boom, ba-ba-boom. You know, when you, you hear the bell that says 30 seconds and you're flurrying. And then you get that one minute off to think about life and the future-

    23. "O

      (sighs)

    24. JR

      ... and th- the fucking universe and volcanoes and Guatemala and Hawaii and okay-

    25. "O

      Bing.

    26. JR

      ... the bell goes off again, you got another three r- ... three minutes.

    27. TW

      Yeah. (laughs)

    28. JR

      And, man, it's, it's one of my, my, like ... It's a p- ... It's a psychedelic experience. It's like a cleansing experience, hitting the bag when you're high.

    29. "O

      I like sh- ... I love shadow boxing when I'm high. I'll take a rip out ... at home and just sit, and I got a little mirror, and I'll just shadow box. Don't even know how long. I just can just shadow box for ... Just go.

    30. JR

      Do you know what's weird? Like, you feel balanced when you're high. You feel like, like, maybe, like, if you got an injury, you feel it more. You feel like things are off.

Episode duration: 3:32:25

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