JRE MMA Show #32 with Firas Zahabi

Joe Rogan 0:05 Three, two, one. Boom. I don't wanna start off like this is a commercial, dude, but this fucking thing you have, this TIM TAM thing.

Firas Zahabi 0:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:15 This is incredible.

Firas Zahabi 0:16 It's sick, huh? It's amazing.

Joe Rogan 0:17 I've never... I've seen some of these different ones online, people using them, Thera things, you know, I don't know what they call them, uh, Theragun I think. But this fucking thing is amazing.

Firas Zahabi 0:29 This is the most powerful one. It has the, the highest travel, and it's the, the best price. So I mean it's-

Joe Rogan 0:35 Out of all the different ones of these things online?

Firas Zahabi 0:37 Yeah, this is the best one.

Joe Rogan 0:38 So what this is, folks, we took the battery out. I'm, I'll pop the battery back in real quick.

Firas Zahabi 0:42 You want to pop it in?

Joe Rogan 0:42 I'll pop it in real quick.

Firas Zahabi 0:43 Go for it.

Joe Rogan 0:43 Just so people can see. That's how impressed I am by this thing. So I've had this nagging muscle in my hip, and then, like, instantaneously (tim tam buzzes) this fucking thing... You, you hold it, folks, and you get it, like, right on a spot. For me it's, like, right here. I can go... (tim tam buzzes) And it just loosens that motherfucker up, like... This is so much more powerful than any of those massagers that you get, like, from a store.

Firas Zahabi 1:12 Exactly. No, no. There's no massager more powerful than this one on the market.

Joe Rogan 1:17 Oh.

Firas Zahabi 1:17 Like, this is not for Mom and Dad, you know. This is for the guy doing, uh, you know, playing soccer, football, MMA, CrossFit. Like, that's for the hardcore athletes.

Joe Rogan 1:24 And you invented this?

Firas Zahabi 1:25 I, I started the company. I started the company. I bought one of those DMS. I don't know if you've ever heard of those. It's called deep muscle stimulator. It's kind of sim-

Joe Rogan 1:31 We were talking about that before, and I said-

Firas Zahabi 1:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33 ... "Save this, save this."

Firas Zahabi 1:34 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:34 Uh, so what is that?

Firas Zahabi 1:35 It's a... The deep muscle stimulator, it's like a stainless steel high-powered massager that you have to plug in. It cost me three grand. I bought it. It... I had a really bad sciatica for two years. Like, I almost stopped training. Like, I almost had to take a, like, a-

Joe Rogan 1:47 I've got a problem with that right now.

Firas Zahabi 1:48 Really? Sciatica?

Joe Rogan 1:49 Yeah, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 1:49 Okay, this is gonna help you out big time.

Joe Rogan 1:51 It comes and goes.

Firas Zahabi 1:51 Big time.

Joe Rogan 1:52 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 1:52 Because I had... I mean, I was, I was so bad I couldn't sleep. Like, I could not sleep because I was in so much pain.

Joe Rogan 1:57 Does yours go all the way... I get mine in my calf sometimes.

Firas Zahabi 1:59 Really? Oh, I'm lucky then.

Joe Rogan 2:00 Yeah. It goes all the way down to the calf for some weird reason.

Firas Zahabi 2:03 No... Me, it went down to the hamstring and it stopped there.

Joe Rogan 2:05 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 2:05 Like, I, I, I was able to stop the problem there. But they say it can go all the way down to the calf. That's, that's getting bad, you know?

Joe Rogan 2:11 Yeah. Ooh, I got to get my calf right now.

Firas Zahabi 2:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:14 Motherfucker.

Firas Zahabi 2:15 So I bought that DMS.

Joe Rogan 2:17 Ah!

Firas Zahabi 2:17 There it is, you know. That, that's the DMS.

Joe Rogan 2:20 Jeez. Oh my God.

Firas Zahabi 2:20 Great, great machine. Great machine, but it overheats. It costs three grand.

Joe Rogan 2:25 And what does that, that piston do? Does it hammer you or is it-

Firas Zahabi 2:28 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It hammers you. It has a-

Joe Rogan 2:29 Just like this?

Firas Zahabi 2:30 Yeah, but it has a lesser travel. This one has a greater travel. So that one, the DMS is a little bit too vibration. It's not as much, uh, travel. It's not as much percussion. Percussion is what you're looking for and, uh... So when, uh, I got together with a company from the US, Dysrupt. We put together the, the TIM TAM.TECH company.

Joe Rogan 2:47 Oh.

Firas Zahabi 2:47 We went, uh, to China. We checked out-

Joe Rogan 2:50 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 2:50 ... a hundred different type of guns. We got this one going. This was the best one. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 2:55 Dude, this fucking thing's incredible.

Firas Zahabi 2:56 It's incredible, and-

Joe Rogan 2:57 I hate to sound like this is... Like you paid me to do an endorsement. He didn't, folks. This is... This fucking thing, you should se- These should be flying off the charts.

Firas Zahabi 3:06 (laughs) Thank you.

Joe Rogan 3:06 They shouldn't even need drones, they should just be flying themselves. Damn.

Firas Zahabi 3:10 Seriously. You know what? The thing with the deep muscle stimulator is we have to share it in the gym. This is you buy your own personal gun, you know.

Joe Rogan 3:16 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 3:16 And... Because the deep muscle stimulator, it's 3,000 bucks, you know, to lend it out or-

Joe Rogan 3:20 How much is one of these?

Firas Zahabi 3:21 Four... It's 400 bucks.

Joe Rogan 3:22 That's-

Firas Zahabi 3:22 Five-year warranty.

Joe Rogan 3:23 That's a fucking bargain.

Firas Zahabi 3:24 It's a bargain.

Joe Rogan 3:25 For e- For anybody who trains really hard-

Firas Zahabi 3:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:26 ... that's a bargain.

Firas Zahabi 3:27 It's a massage for life. It's your health, you know.

Joe Rogan 3:29 Ooh, that's nice, man. It's like a Sawzall.

Firas Zahabi 3:32 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 3:32 This is like-

Firas Zahabi 3:32 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 3:33 This is like you took a Sawzall and you put, like, a, a little rubber-

Firas Zahabi 3:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:36 ... ball on the end of it. It's amazing.

Firas Zahabi 3:37 It's like... We tried so many other type of machines but they're all overheat, weak, you know.

Joe Rogan 3:42 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 3:42 They're not efficient. The most efficient has already been created, so we just retooled it. We just rechanged it. We made it so that it's, uh... You can use it on the human body. There's some modifications made, but that's it. I mean, it's pretty simple. It's, it's the most efficient type of design they have.

Joe Rogan 3:54 Yeah, it's kind of a... It's really hard to find someone who can massage you correctly. It's very hard to find someone that's good.

Firas Zahabi 4:02 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 4:02 Someone who can really break up the tissue. But even if you do, like... What this thing can do, this thing is, like, vibrating you and shaking-

Firas Zahabi 4:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:10 ... everything loose and-

Firas Zahabi 4:11 I have a, I have a cone tip I gotta send you.

Joe Rogan 4:14 Uh-oh.

Firas Zahabi 4:14 It's even... It goes even deeper.

Joe Rogan 4:15 Oh.

Firas Zahabi 4:15 So if you can handle deep tissue-

Joe Rogan 4:17 Ooh.

Firas Zahabi 4:17 ... I'm gonna send you a bunch of them.

Joe Rogan 4:18 Okay.

Firas Zahabi 4:18 Yeah, you're gonna love it. We have also cold tip, hot tip. It's, uh, it's pretty fr-

Joe Rogan 4:21 Oh, so you freeze them?

Firas Zahabi 4:22 Uh, you can freeze them because that helps kill the pain. So if you have an acute, acute injury, like, or s- And after, like, a, a week or two and you wanna start working on it, the, the cold of the tip helps numb the pain. It helps manage pain a little more. And the hot tip helps loosen up the muscle a little further. I mostly use the cone tip. The cone tip's for those who have, you know, their experience with massage. You're, you're, you're able to go deep tissue. And, uh, for some people it hurts. For me, it's, it's, it's perfect.

Joe Rogan 4:45 Y- So you find, like, where the scar tissue is-

Firas Zahabi 4:48 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 4:48 ... and you break it up. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 4:49 Exactly. The surface area on the cone tip is obviously smaller so it goes even in, in deeper and, and, and unlocks that muscle real quick. So for me, I don't have the time for foam rolling, you know. That's the, the main reason why I, I wanted a product like this. 'Cause foam rolling takes forever to br- to really loosen up a muscle.

Joe Rogan 5:03 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 5:04 And I'm in the gym all day. Do I wanna stay, you know, in the gym another hour rolling up and down on a, on a foam roller?

Joe Rogan 5:09 I think you gotta do something though, right?

Firas Zahabi 5:11 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 5:11 You kinda have to do something.

Firas Zahabi 5:12 If you're training hard and you wanna train for life.

Joe Rogan 5:15 Do you use those, uh... Well, we don't have one in the room, but do you ever use those, um... What are they called? Supernova? Yep. Supernova Ball.

Firas Zahabi 5:21 Yeah, like a lacrosse ball kind of balls?

Joe Rogan 5:23 Balls. Yep, yep. Yeah. But it's larger.

Firas Zahabi 5:24 Yes.

Joe Rogan 5:24 It's like a-

Firas Zahabi 5:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:25 It's like a big blue one. I love that thing. It's-

Firas Zahabi 5:27 Rogue makes it.

Joe Rogan 5:28 Rogue makes it. That fucker gets in there, but this is even better than that.

Firas Zahabi 5:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:32 This is... This thing's incredible, man.

Firas Zahabi 5:34 I, I like the ball for, uh, my back. When I do my back-

Joe Rogan 5:36 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 5:36 ... so I can lie down on it, I can get the pressure I want.

Joe Rogan 5:39 Right.

Firas Zahabi 5:39 But when I use... When I o- do my legs, I use the TIM TAM.

Joe Rogan 5:42 Yeah, when I go on the road, I bring that ball with me and I'll put it on the ground in the hotel room and I'll bridge on it.

Firas Zahabi 5:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:47 And I just, like, hit, like, certain spots and-

Firas Zahabi 5:49 It's amazing.

Joe Rogan 5:50 ... pop everything loose. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 5:51 And you need a lot of body weight. Sometimes I put a, a kettlebell on my chest.

Joe Rogan 5:55 Oh.

Firas Zahabi 5:55 And you get even deeper.

Joe Rogan 5:57 Mm.

Firas Zahabi 5:57 And, uh, you could really unlock a muscle like this. I mean, you could-

Joe Rogan 6:01 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 6:01 ... really get in there and really unlock it. For people who train, they know, you know. When you, when you get a na- nagging tight muscle in your neck, in your shoulder, your shoulder blades-

Joe Rogan 6:08 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 6:08 ... and then you're on the mat, you do a quick movement-... you know?

Joe Rogan 6:10 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 6:11 That's- it's scary, so-

Joe Rogan 6:12 Dude, I did it once in the shower. I had something going on in my neck, I guess, and I didn't-

Firas Zahabi 6:16 Mm.

Joe Rogan 6:16 ... realize how bad it was and I turned in the shower to get something and it popped. (yells)

Firas Zahabi 6:19 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 6:19 And then for, like-

Firas Zahabi 6:21 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 6:21 ... days, I was locked up.

Firas Zahabi 6:22 I've had that done also, but it's- it's all about keeping the muscles loose.

Joe Rogan 6:26 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 6:26 Good posture. You know, Kelly Starrett wrote a book. You had him on- on this show.

Joe Rogan 6:29 Yeah, he's great.

Firas Zahabi 6:30 He's a really amazing guy.

Joe Rogan 6:30 He's great.

Firas Zahabi 6:31 He really changed my life, honestly. I'm t- I'm telling you, reading his book, Supple Leopard-

Joe Rogan 6:34 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 6:34 ... I don't know, all my- all- all- everybody who knows me, follows me, they know I always talk about this book. You know, he said something so important. He said, "Look, it comes down to two things. Good alignment and loose muscles." You gotta keep your body aligned and loose muscles. And, uh, I just followed those two principles. I mean, his book is really, really excellent. And, um, when I saw his- when I read his book, that's when I- I reached out to him to work with George. Because he- I don't know if you've ever seen when George does a back flip.

Joe Rogan 7:00 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 7:00 And he lands, his knees always kind of come in together. If you ever see like-

Joe Rogan 7:03 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 7:03 Watch him do a back flip. That's called a ... I was reading his book and I saw that's the valgus fault. He calls that the valgus fault. When you're- when you do a squat and your knees come close to one another and he's like, "That, uh, can cause ACL tears." And I'm like, "I know a guy with two ACL tears and he does that all the time."

Joe Rogan 7:16 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 7:16 I see him do that all the time. It's something I've always noticed about George.

Joe Rogan 7:19 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 7:19 His knees always bow in when we do lifts, when we do jumps, when we do hurdles. I mean, I've watched G- George jump up and down, uh, uh, literally thousands of times. And I saw his knees bowing all the time. And he's like, "Well ..." Then I reached out to him. I said, "Hey, could you help me correct George's ... There it is. That's the valgus fault."

Joe Rogan 7:35 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 7:35 And he's like, "Sure." And- and ever since then, George's knees have been, uh, a lot better. And we still use-

Joe Rogan 7:40 What did you do to fix it?

Firas Zahabi 7:41 Well, what he does, it's a technical skill. It's a skill. So he does, he has a few different exercises to help you correct it. So you put a band around your knees and you kind of push out on the band. But really what we do is we'll make George do a lift or a jump, film it, send it to Kelly, and he'll tell us how aligned we are and what directions to go. So he kind of coaches us on how to avoid, um, um, this, uh, fault. However, really at the end of the day, it's about keeping your knees turned to the outside.

Joe Rogan 8:05 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 8:06 I used to walk up the stairs and have knees in my- pain in my knee. Do you ever have that when you walk upstairs?

Joe Rogan 8:11 No.

Firas Zahabi 8:11 I- I used to have pain in my knee walking up the stairs. And I was-

Joe Rogan 8:13 Just from stairs?

Firas Zahabi 8:14 Just from walking upstairs. And I didn't know why. And then I read his book and he's like, "Look, when you walk up a step, you gotta keep your toes straight and turn your knee out." I was like, "Really?" And I started doing that. My pain was gone immediately.

Joe Rogan 8:25 Keep your toes straight.

Firas Zahabi 8:26 Straight.

Joe Rogan 8:27 Like toes forward.

Firas Zahabi 8:28 Turn your knee out.

Joe Rogan 8:29 And turn your knee out.

Firas Zahabi 8:29 Turn your knee to the outside. So he says, "Look, this is your- this is your ACL." See this here?

Joe Rogan 8:35 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 8:35 This is your ACL. Cross your- your ACL.

Joe Rogan 8:37 Right.

Firas Zahabi 8:37 Okay. That's the ACL. You put it in your kneecap, okay?

Joe Rogan 8:39 Right.

Firas Zahabi 8:39 That's your knee. When you turn your knee to the outside, look, it tightens it up.

Joe Rogan 8:42 Mm-hmm. Oh, okay.

Firas Zahabi 8:43 That takes away all the slack.

Joe Rogan 8:44 Ah.

Firas Zahabi 8:44 So what happens when you're going up the- when you're going up the stairs, your- your- your- your ACL is just jiggling around and getting sheared.

Joe Rogan 8:52 Oh.

Firas Zahabi 8:52 But when you tighten it up, you go up, you're secured. So he call- he calls it creating torque. He's a brilliant book, man. He's a brilliant guy.

Joe Rogan 8:59 So-

Firas Zahabi 8:59 Incredible.

Joe Rogan 8:59 ... even when you run hills, you should do that.

Firas Zahabi 9:01 Absolutely. You should always be aligned. Whenever your body's under pressure or stress, whether you're wrestling or whatnot, you should always have torque. So like, look, grab your shirt like this, okay? Grab your shirt.

Joe Rogan 9:11 Okay.

Firas Zahabi 9:11 He- he gives an example in the book. Excellent example. So now grab the- the shirt and twist it here. Create torque. Now, look, you have a much more, uh, stable grip. You know, a-

Joe Rogan 9:20 Sure.

Firas Zahabi 9:20 ... judoka is always gonna grab the lapels and twist them.

Joe Rogan 9:22 Right.

Firas Zahabi 9:23 So when you grab the bar, let's say you're gonna do a bench press. Maybe, you know, it's not the best exercise or not, but the principle is still at work. When you grab the bar, you should be torquing the bar.

Joe Rogan 9:32 Almost ...

Firas Zahabi 9:33 When you're doing push-ups, your hands are on the mat and you're torquing.

Joe Rogan 9:36 Hmm. Right.

Firas Zahabi 9:36 Even though your hands are not turning literally, you're just torquing.

Joe Rogan 9:38 Right.

Firas Zahabi 9:39 When you do that, you feel that all the slack is eaten up.

Joe Rogan 9:42 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 9:42 There's no more slack. There's no more, uh- uh, trampoline effect. You know, there's no more jiggling.

Joe Rogan 9:46 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 9:46 Everything's tight. The system is tight. And it's very, very important that the system be tight and that the weight be on the muscles.

Joe Rogan 9:52 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 9:52 So if you're properly aligned when you're doing a maneuver, the weight is on the bone, not on the tendons. So if you put your- put your weight like this on your fingers, you'll see that the bone is carrying the weight.

Joe Rogan 10:04 Right.

Firas Zahabi 10:04 If you bend- if you bend your bones here, look, look. If you're unaligned and you start putting pressure, now you see your muscles are starting to work-

Joe Rogan 10:09 Right.

Firas Zahabi 10:09 ... overtime.

Joe Rogan 10:09 Right.

Firas Zahabi 10:10 So when I'm carrying weight, I need to- I need to have it on my bones and/or my muscles. Never on the tendons and ligaments. Your ligaments-

Joe Rogan 10:16 You know, they say that with backpackers. You know what backpackers do?

Firas Zahabi 10:20 No.

Joe Rogan 10:20 They- they- they keep their legs as stiff as possible and they take short, like, sort of short steps.

Firas Zahabi 10:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:27 Like guys who are mountaineer guys, they don't take like big high steps.

Firas Zahabi 10:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 10:31 They kind of keep their legs stiff and they walk with their skeleton.

Firas Zahabi 10:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 10:35 They try to let their skeleton carry ...

Firas Zahabi 10:36 If you see me, I'm sitting on this chair. This chair has no muscles, but it's holding me up.

Joe Rogan 10:40 Right.

Firas Zahabi 10:40 Because of the structure.

Joe Rogan 10:42 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 10:42 Structure is a type of- of, uh, strength. So if you take an egg and you try to squeeze it in a certain way, you can't break it. You know, you ever seen that experiment?

Joe Rogan 10:48 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 10:48 Why? Because you're actually trying to crush a cylinder. To crush a cylinder takes a tremendous amount of force. However, to break a stick in half takes very little amount of force. Why? It has a lot to do with the- with the structure. If you're trying to compress matter on itself, it won't- it won't. It'll take a tremendous amount of force to do that. Tremendous amou- tremendous amount of power. However, if you want to separate the- the material, uh, by bending it at- at the middle, it's- it's very easy. But to compress it, to compress material on itself, it takes a- takes a tremendous amount of energy.

Joe Rogan 11:17 Right. So anytime you're going outside of your alignment, you're allowing-

Firas Zahabi 11:20 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 11:20 ... things to compress.

Firas Zahabi 11:21 Yeah, that's why it makes so much sense to keep your legs straight when you're hiking. It's like a horse that sleeps, right? He's sleeping. If he aligns his legs perfectly straight, he's using structure to hold him up instead of muscular strength. So I mean, and he ... I remember y- you had him on the show and you guys had a very interesting, uh, uh, conversation and you- he was talking about front squatting will make you have a great guard. But I think you guys mis- misunderstood each other actually, 'cause you were like, "No, front squatting has nothing to do with have a great guard." And I- and I agree with both of you, but I think you guys were not talking about the exact same thing. He's talking about having the mobility to squat down really low-

Joe Rogan 11:55 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 11:55 ... in the front squat will help your guard. Not necessarily having a big lift, not necessarily. He wasn't talking about ha- lifting 300 pounds in the front squat is gonna make you a great guard player.

Joe Rogan 12:04 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 12:04 That- that's irrelevant. He was... I think what he was talking about is having incredible mobility in your hips. You ever see a- a child pick up something off the floor, like a- a newborn baby?

Joe Rogan 12:13 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 12:13 He's gonna get into this perfect, perfect squat. Well, if you- if you look at guard players, the best guard players always have incredible flexibility in their hips.

Joe Rogan 12:20 Right.

Firas Zahabi 12:20 Because I always tell people that the higher you can bring your hips to your chest...... the harder it is for me to pass your guard. Like, if you're one of those guys where your, where your knee's like this, you know, you're trying to re-guard and your knees are this far, it's, the, the space for me to pass your guard is huge.

Joe Rogan 12:31 Giant, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 12:32 But if you can bring this foot behind your head-

Joe Rogan 12:34 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 12:35 ... and your hip is so, it's f- the window, the space that I need to cross to get to side control is so small.

Joe Rogan 12:40 Yeah, j- um, Eddy has, uh ... excuse me, one of his students is named Sean Bollinger, and he has crazy flexibility.

Firas Zahabi 12:45 Right, I, I've seen him, I've seen him, I've seen him.

Joe Rogan 12:47 Crazy.

Firas Zahabi 12:47 The double, uh-

Joe Rogan 12:48 Yeah, he could do double lotus like-

Firas Zahabi 12:50 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:50 And, and he could literally take his legs and put them behind his head.

Firas Zahabi 12:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:53 I mean, he could just p- pull his legs back, put 'em behind his head.

Firas Zahabi 12:55 How many, how many great guard players have you seen who can do that? So many of us.

Joe Rogan 12:58 Slamming guys, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 12:59 Like, like Ryan Hall, for instance.

Joe Rogan 13:00 Keenan.

Firas Zahabi 13:00 Uh, yeah, Keenan. I mean, they, they have this flexibility to them.

Joe Rogan 13:04 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 13:04 Passing their guards becomes very, very difficult.

Joe Rogan 13:06 T- it's almost impossible.

Firas Zahabi 13:06 It's almost impossible.

Joe Rogan 13:07 It's like they just spin a little bit and you're back in something again.

Firas Zahabi 13:10 God.

Joe Rogan 13:10 And you're, you're tied up and then you add in leg locks and you're kinda fucked.

Firas Zahabi 13:13 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 13:13 'Cause there's, they're spinning to your leg while you're trying to pass their guard.

Firas Zahabi 13:17 It's-

Joe Rogan 13:17 And yeah.

Firas Zahabi 13:17 It, hip flexibility is so paramount in jujitsu.

Joe Rogan 13:21 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 13:22 For bottom game especially.

Joe Rogan 13:23 And it's so devastating when you have a hip injury.

Firas Zahabi 13:25 Oh.

Joe Rogan 13:25 Hip injuries and, you know, I know guys who have had hip replacements and it's like, boy.

Firas Zahabi 13:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:30 You know, then you're, you're so severely limited in what you can do afterwards.

Firas Zahabi 13:34 Y- you gotta never let it get there, in my opinion.

Joe Rogan 13:36 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 13:36 According to Kelly, he says your joints can last you 120 years, like if you take care of them. He said there's 2% catastrophe, meaning y- you got hit by a bus. Okay, that's something we can't, we can't do anything about. 98% of the time, it's because you didn't take care of your joints, you haven't, you haven't properly used them and you let muscles get tight for too long-

Joe Rogan 13:54 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 13:55 ... over a long period of time. So for me personally, I feel like when I was 20. I feel better now than when I was 25, 'cause at 25 I was really beat up; 26, 27, I was really like, hey, my knees, my back, my neck, you know, training every day, twice a day, it was grueling. But after I went through that system, I came back out fresh and now whenever I have a little tweak or anything like that, I take care of it immediately, I kill it.

Joe Rogan 14:15 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 14:15 I don't let any tweak creep up, go, go any further.

Joe Rogan 14:18 Yeah, right.

Firas Zahabi 14:18 And, uh, I feel much more energy. Like when I, when I keep that, the body healthy and lean, I feel a lot more energy, I feel better. My, my mood is better.

Joe Rogan 14:26 That's a, it's the balance between being tough and, and, you know, being mentally strong enough to like push through training when you're, you know, you're not feeling your best, and knowing that you're fucking up your vehicle.

Firas Zahabi 14:38 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 14:38 Knowing, knowing that you're fucking up your body.

Firas Zahabi 14:40 Very true, very true.

Joe Rogan 14:41 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 14:41 There's a balance.

Joe Rogan 14:42 Hard for fighters in particular because they wanna be tough.

Firas Zahabi 14:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:45 You know, so you got some w- weird little thing in your leg like, "S- whatever, I'm just gonna work through it."

Firas Zahabi 14:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:49 You just work, and you say, "I'm just gonna go light." That-

Firas Zahabi 14:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:51 ... which is hilarious. People who say they're gonna go light, you go light and then you get tagged-

Firas Zahabi 14:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:56 ... and then you wanna get someone back and then next thing you know you're not going light.

Firas Zahabi 14:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:59 And then that thing in your leg is all fucked up, and the next thing you know, you go to a doctor, they, "Oh, you have an MCL tear. Oh, fuck."

Firas Zahabi 15:07 Yeah. And then wh- with that tightness, that's, it gets worse after, after 48 hours, you have DOMS.

Joe Rogan 15:12 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 15:12 Delayed onset muscle soreness. And then you're in the shower, you turn your neck, boom, something pops.

Joe Rogan 15:16 Yeah, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 15:16 You know?

Joe Rogan 15:17 What do you do in terms of, do you take circuminin or curcum- curcuminin, that's how you say it, right? Curcuminin, turmeric, (clears throat) anti-inflammatory, you know, herbs and things along those lines, um, th- I know that, um, there was, Rhonda Patrick just put something up about, uh, I think you say, I think you call it curcuminin. Circuminin or cur- curcuminin? Anyway, it's turmeric, it's the active ingredient in turmeric and she just put something up on her, uh, Twitter page a couple of days ago about how important this stuff is, (clears throat) and to make sure that you have, uh, bioavailable. It improves memory and mood as well.

Firas Zahabi 15:54 Well, I'll have to try that, haven't tried it.

Joe Rogan 15:55 Yeah, it's just turmeric. It's, uh-

Firas Zahabi 15:57 Really?

Joe Rogan 15:58 Yeah, and that stuff is fantastic for inflammation. People that have soreness and, you know, like nagging injuries and nagging inflammation, having that as a part of your daily diet is fantastic, along with fish oil. (clears throat) Fish oil's really good for that. You know, of course, and then watching your diet and making sure you're low in inflammatory foods like sugar and alcohol-

Firas Zahabi 16:19 Right.

Joe Rogan 16:20 ... and, you know, things along the, really, it's amazing how much of a difference it makes.

Firas Zahabi 16:23 It's huge.

Joe Rogan 16:23 If you have any sort of, uh, back injury or inflammation. I talked to this lady who was a therapist a few years back and she was saying, "You know, you should really try going gluten-free if you have issues with your, uh, with your back." I was like, "Listen to this wacky bitch." (laughs) That's what I was thinking. (laughs) All I was thinking is like, "Oh, she's talking woo-woo w- crystals nonsense." And I was like, "Wait a minute, really? Gluten?" She's like, "You'd be amazed at how many people, um, when..." And now that I've thought about it more and with all that I know, talking to various nutritionists and, and actual clinical researchers, I think it's as much gluten as it is just y- just sugar, refined carbohydrate- hydrates and, refined carbohydrates and sugars and all these different things just create inflammation. There's just no way around it.

Firas Zahabi 17:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:08 Especially the, the levels that normal Americans eat 'em in.

Firas Zahabi 17:13 Oh boy.

Joe Rogan 17:13 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 17:13 Now you're talking about-

Joe Rogan 17:14 We're the worst.

Firas Zahabi 17:15 ... yeah. It's, it's tremendous amount of sugar.

Joe Rogan 17:17 Yeah, it's just-

Firas Zahabi 17:18 Like, you, you don't know it until you get off sugar-

Joe Rogan 17:20 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 17:20 ... and then you go f- see everybody who's eating the standard amount of sugar and you're like, it blows your mind.

Joe Rogan 17:27 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 17:27 You don't need that much sugar.

Joe Rogan 17:28 There's no way.

Firas Zahabi 17:29 It's-

Joe Rogan 17:29 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 17:29 ... it's just way too much and you feel sick eating that much sugar again. Like, it's just, it's mind-boggling.

Joe Rogan 17:33 Like a jug of Gatorade that a lot of dudes drink after practice?

Firas Zahabi 17:36 Oh my God. I couldn't get that down.

Joe Rogan 17:37 That's ... I mean, have you ever seen those, they, they have those things where they show you, uh, in, um, on, uh, online, they have like, "This is the amount of sugar that's in a can of Coke. This is the amount of sugar that's in a 24-ounce bottle of Gatorade." It's, it's fucking crazy. (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 17:51 It's incredible.

Joe Rogan 17:52 (laughs) It's incredible amounts.

Firas Zahabi 17:52 It's a pile of sugar.

Joe Rogan 17:53 It's unbelievable.

Firas Zahabi 17:54 It's like a fistful of sugar, but it's addictive.

Joe Rogan 17:57 Yeah, oh yeah.

Firas Zahabi 17:57 It gets the customer coming back.

Joe Rogan 17:59 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 17:59 It gets the customer coming back. You need that next sugar high, you need more sugar the next time around.

Joe Rogan 18:02 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 18:02 You need another dose of sugar.

Joe Rogan 18:05 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 18:05 And, uh, I think, I think your sugar, you should get it from Whole Foods mostly, you know? It gets released into your system naturally, slowly.

Joe Rogan 18:10 Yeah, there it is right there.

Firas Zahabi 18:11 You know?

Joe Rogan 18:11 Look at that Big Gulp.

Firas Zahabi 18:13 Wow.

Joe Rogan 18:13 (laughs) Wow.

Firas Zahabi 18:13 That Big Gulp is like a, it's like a kilo.

Joe Rogan 18:16 Wow.

Firas Zahabi 18:16 It looks like, like you're bringing Coke across the border.

Joe Rogan 18:19 That's just poisonous, really.

Firas Zahabi 18:21 It's v- f- fucking amazing.

Joe Rogan 18:23 At the end of the day. It's, that's so much sugar.

Firas Zahabi 18:25 Wow. That's impressive.

Joe Rogan 18:27 What does it say, 17 grams? What does it say, Jamie? 37? Uh, 17 tablespoons. 17 teaspoons. 32 table- tables spoons for that. This is 18. Tablespoons. (laughs) Jesus Christ that's so much. Wow. And a coke, 20 ounce coke. That's so much sugar!

Firas Zahabi 18:40 Wow.

Joe Rogan 18:40 That's so much sugar.

Firas Zahabi 18:41 Wow.

Joe Rogan 18:41 Chocolate milk has fuck, seven. Some people- Chocolate milk? Wow. Chocolate milk's supposed to be good after you train, though. It's white milk too, it's free. Or maybe that's old news. Uh, I don't know. George used to do that.

Firas Zahabi 18:51 Yeah, George used to do that. But I'll tell you something, George is a freak of nature when it comes to diet.

Joe Rogan 18:55 Yeah?

Firas Zahabi 18:55 Yeah. Well, he, he's very blessed. Okay? I think, uh, I think there's... Look, this is just my observation but I think some people, um, uh, when they eat carbs, they spike their insulin, okay, and they, they can get fat off, if they eat too much carbs. And some people eat a tremendous amount of carbs and they never get fat. And we've all h- we all have a friend who eats a lot of junk food and is ripped. W- they're not all, they're not many in the, in the world.

Joe Rogan 19:17 Right.

Firas Zahabi 19:17 Okay? But they exist.

Joe Rogan 19:18 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 19:18 We've all, we've all met a person like that.

Joe Rogan 19:20 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 19:20 George is one of those guys. Like, if he eats McDonald's for a week or he eats vegetables for a week, it doesn't matter, he's gonna be lean either way. Now, he'll be lean around vegetables, but even on McDonald's he's gonna be lean. He's never been fat in his entire career. His entire life, I should say. So, I mean-

Joe Rogan 19:35 Did he get a little heavier when he stopped training?

Firas Zahabi 19:37 He g- he gets bulky.

Joe Rogan 19:37 Look, 'cause he took some photos for the UFC. He looked a little heavier.

Firas Zahabi 19:40 He, bulky, I would say.

Joe Rogan 19:41 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 19:41 But would you, you, would you say that he's chubby or fat?

Joe Rogan 19:44 No.

Firas Zahabi 19:44 No? No.

Joe Rogan 19:44 If I saw him at the beach I wouldn't say, "Look at that fat guy."

Firas Zahabi 19:46 He'd be like, "This guy's shredded." I'd be like, "This guy's jacked."

Joe Rogan 19:48 I'd be like, "That guy's jacked."

Firas Zahabi 19:48 "This guy's jacked. He should-"

Joe Rogan 19:49 But when it's George, you hold him to the highest of standards.

Firas Zahabi 19:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:52 You know, it's...

Firas Zahabi 19:53 If I ate the way he eats, I would be fat.

Joe Rogan 19:55 Wow.

Firas Zahabi 19:55 Let's put it that way. How many people have told me, "Hey, I've been hanging out with George for a week, I got fat. I gained 10 pounds."

Joe Rogan 19:59 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 19:59 I'm like, "Yeah, that's George, man."

Joe Rogan 20:01 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 20:01 "That's George. Don't, don't eat like he eats. You won't, it won't work." And he has his whole theories and philosophies about why he's lean. It's like, dude, no. You're just, you're just born this way. You, he doesn't get it. I have to, like-

Joe Rogan 20:10 Well...

Firas Zahabi 20:10 I've trained thousands of people. Okay? He's trained himself. Like, he thinks that what, what he did to, what, what he did-

Joe Rogan 20:16 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 20:16 ... is gonna work for everyone. As, and I, and I love George. He's a super intelligent guy but I tell him, "George, the way..." Like, he's very gifted when it comes to food. And he does a lot of things, like now he's doing a lot of fasting and he's getting even leaner.

Joe Rogan 20:26 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 20:27 But it'll be a long time before George is fat. You see, there's, there's, there's various body types, you know? You have ectomorph, mesomorph, endomorph and we're, we're, uh, we're on the continuum of these three. George is on the ectomorph side. And, and a, and a strong sign of ectomorph is a small waist. And George has a very-

Joe Rogan 20:43 Isn't that mesomorph?

Firas Zahabi 20:44 No, mesomorph is-

Joe Rogan 20:45 Because he's, 'cause he's very muscular.

Firas Zahabi 20:46 He is. I would say he's between ectomorph and meso-

Joe Rogan 20:48 Ectomorph struggles.

Firas Zahabi 20:48 But he, sorry, go ahead.

Joe Rogan 20:51 Yeah, go ahead.

Firas Zahabi 20:51 George was very skinny and scrawny when he was young.

Joe Rogan 20:54 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 20:54 So he went crazy on the weights. He turned his weakness into a strength. He did so much weight, weight training and, and, and exercise because he wanted to bulk up. So he's a bulk ectomorph. Now, he's not a perfect ectomorph. He's not a f- 100% ectomorph. I would say he's between ectomorph and mesomorph.

Joe Rogan 21:09 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 21:09 But endomorph, the, the other end of the spectrum, you eat a little bit of, uh, uh, carbohydrates, you get fat. You lift a little bit of muscles, your muscles explode in, in size.

Joe Rogan 21:17 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 21:17 George wasn't like that. George is on, a bit on the other side of the spectrum.

Joe Rogan 21:20 So, a real mesomorph would be like Melvin Manhoef.

Firas Zahabi 21:24 Uh, yeah, like that. You know, like...

Joe Rogan 21:26 Just jacked.

Firas Zahabi 21:26 I'm, I'm, I think I'm kind of... No, no, no. M- m- that's more a, a endomorph.

Joe Rogan 21:31 No, endomorph is fat.

Firas Zahabi 21:33 Yeah, but you could also be very muscular.

Joe Rogan 21:35 Endomorph?

Firas Zahabi 21:35 Yeah, you can be very muscular.

Joe Rogan 21:36 I thought endomorph is like, like people that have a really hard time not being overweight.

Firas Zahabi 21:42 You can gain fat and, and muscle really quickly.

Joe Rogan 21:45 As an endomorph?

Firas Zahabi 21:45 Yeah, but ectomorphs, from what I've read, I might be wrong.

Joe Rogan 21:48 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 21:48 Um, they-

Joe Rogan 21:49 Neither one of us are biologists.

Firas Zahabi 21:50 (laughs) Exactly.

Joe Rogan 21:51 That's the problem with this conversation.

Firas Zahabi 21:52 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 21:52 I always thought ectomorph was really skinny, endomorph was they tend to lean towards being overweight, and then mesomorph was someone who's like really, like a Francis Ngannou.

Firas Zahabi 22:00 Not-

Joe Rogan 22:01 Like Super Mi- or Brock Lesnar. Like, super muscular, thick. Like, just look like they, like, naturally would pack a lot of muscle on...

Firas Zahabi 22:07 Well, I'm sure, I'm sure you could pull up a chart.

Joe Rogan 22:09 Yeah, let me.

Firas Zahabi 22:10 If you, if you can.

Joe Rogan 22:10 So does all these pictures just show both of what you're saying, so...

Firas Zahabi 22:12 From what I've, from what I've read, see, the mesomorph is kind of in the middle.

Joe Rogan 22:15 So Ektomorf's-

Firas Zahabi 22:15 Ectomorph is, uh, lean and hard to pack on muscle.

Joe Rogan 22:18 Ectomorph looks like a skinny dork and mesomorph looks like he's super jacked and endomorph looks like...

Firas Zahabi 22:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:24 Well, endomorph, see...

Firas Zahabi 22:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:25 But endomorph does not look fat in that picture.

Firas Zahabi 22:27 He doesn't have to be fat. That's the thing.

Joe Rogan 22:29 See, now here, here's... Let me tell you something, ladies.

Firas Zahabi 22:31 Go for it.

Joe Rogan 22:32 When you look at those three pictures... Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 22:33 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 22:33 I go with endomorph all day.

Firas Zahabi 22:35 Uh-huh, exactly.

Joe Rogan 22:36 And those three pictures...

Firas Zahabi 22:37 We love the endomorphs.

Joe Rogan 22:38 If that's, if that's what an endomorph is... Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 22:40 Let's take the endomorph.

Joe Rogan 22:41 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 22:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:41 Because them ectomorphs, them, they need a lot of naps and they're always tired.

Firas Zahabi 22:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:45 And those mesomorphs, they wanna-

Firas Zahabi 22:46 And their egos, my goodness.

Joe Rogan 22:48 Yeah. They wanna choke you. The mesomorphs-

Firas Zahabi 22:49 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:49 ... always wanna fucking strangle you. But, uh, endomorphs, that's a woman, goddamn.

Firas Zahabi 22:53 You can have a ripped endomorph.

Joe Rogan 22:55 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 22:55 Anybody can be ripped.

Joe Rogan 22:56 Hmm. It could be him. That's the guy who's an endomorph? That's Pratt, maybe.

Firas Zahabi 22:59 Think about endomorph as like a short, stocky Hulk.

Joe Rogan 23:03 A short...

Firas Zahabi 23:03 He could be fat-

Joe Rogan 23:04 Right.

Firas Zahabi 23:04 ... and he could also be packed with muscle.

Joe Rogan 23:06 Like Kelvin, Kelvin Gastelum.

Firas Zahabi 23:07 Kelvin Gastelum, he would, I would put him on the endomorph, endomorph side.

Joe Rogan 23:10 He would. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 23:10 Yes, definitely.

Joe Rogan 23:11 'Cause he's never really totally ripped. Well, Dolce, when he had him and he was getting him down to a real 170, he, he really had him pretty ripped at one point in time.

Firas Zahabi 23:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:22 Just really low body fat.

Firas Zahabi 23:22 That's the thing, you can get ripped.

Joe Rogan 23:24 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 23:24 It's just not as easy to get there.

Joe Rogan 23:25 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 23:26 Anybody can get ripped. Um, but a, an ectomorph... So, think about a basketball player.

Joe Rogan 23:31 Right.

Firas Zahabi 23:31 Okay? One of the signs they say is small waist. The waists and shoulders are quite, uh, similar. Now, George has a V going, you know?

Joe Rogan 23:38 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 23:38 He has very broad shoulders, which is great. He's perfectly built for fighting. That allows him for reach and his double leg, 'cause he's got incredible legs. It's like he's wearing shoulder pads almost.

Joe Rogan 23:46 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 23:47 And, you know, he's blessed with many, many, uh, uh, genetic gifts for fighting, no doubt about it. And endomorphs are naturally predis-... Excuse me. Ectomorphs are naturally predisposed to endurance sports. So you'll see a lot of marathon runners or whatnot, they're tall and lanky. They're not short and bulky...

Joe Rogan 24:02 Right.

Firas Zahabi 24:03 Uh, you know, Mike Tyson type look, uh, athletes. You know-

Joe Rogan 24:06 That's a real mesomorph, right?

Firas Zahabi 24:07 That's a real, that's a r- I would say endomorph.

Joe Rogan 24:09 Endomorph?

Firas Zahabi 24:10 Because he's so short.

Joe Rogan 24:11 Mm-hmm. Okay.

Firas Zahabi 24:12 Short and stocky and bulky. He could put on a lot of muscle or a lot of fat. Now, I'll ask you, is he a little bit... I don't wanna, I don't wanna say he's fat, but he's, he's put on some fat since he's retired or whatnot, right?

Joe Rogan 24:21 I don't know how much he works out anymore, you know?

Firas Zahabi 24:23 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 24:24 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 24:24 But an ectomorph, even when they stop working out...

Joe Rogan 24:26 They're still strong.

Firas Zahabi 24:27 They're less likely to p- pack on fat.

Joe Rogan 24:28 Right.

Firas Zahabi 24:29 They might have a little belly, you know, but it's not as, as...

Joe Rogan 24:32 Pronounced.

Firas Zahabi 24:32 It's not as pronounced as an endomorph. An endomorph will pack on fat and muscle real quickly.And they're, they're more, uh, they're more, um, they gravitate more towards power sports. So they can explode, but have l- have less cardio. Whereas the ectomorph is, like you'll see a lot of running backs, they're short, stocky-

Joe Rogan 24:49 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 24:50 ... endomorph, man. They have to explode for three or four seconds.

Joe Rogan 24:52 W- is there a best body for fighting or is there, uh, do you just adapt your style to whatever body you have?

Firas Zahabi 24:58 Exactly. I think there's a best body for basketball, a best body for football, well it depends what position you're playing. But fighting, everybody has an, a, uh, a fight in their DNA, so all styles, all, excuse me, all body types can fight.

Joe Rogan 25:13 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 25:13 And that's what's so amazing. You got a, you got a Pajares, he's a endomorph, man, but he found a way to fight that makes sense for him. That's why I always tell people, "You gotta fight according to your, your body type." And people think that's crazy. No, Muhammad Ali fought a certain way because he has certain attributes, he had certain, he had certain, uh, a certain personality, even your personality is very important.

Joe Rogan 25:34 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 25:34 If he tried to fight like Tyson, it would backfire.

Joe Rogan 25:36 Right.

Firas Zahabi 25:36 If Tyson tried to fight like Muhammad Ali, it would backfire. I think everybody has to start with the basics and then after three, four years of training, even maybe up to five years, now you gotta specialize for what your temperament is, what your body type is, how, what your personality is because not everybody wants to get it done in round one, and not everybody's the type of person who's gonna take it to the cards, and not everybody has, uh, a reach and speed to jab in and out.

Joe Rogan 26:00 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 26:00 A lot of people think, "Oh, I'm just gonna jab in and out like Ali." Dude, do you have the attributes that Ali has? He was born with certain attributes, and everybody's born with an attribute for fighting, in my opinion. Everybody got this far because they can fight. Nobody got here, uh, this far without having some innate ability to fight, you know, to defend themselves.

Joe Rogan 26:18 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 26:18 So all our body types can defend themselves, but you have to discover how, what works best for that body type.

Joe Rogan 26:24 Right. W- Tyson's a perfect example of that.

Firas Zahabi 26:26 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 26:27 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 26:27 They thought he couldn't make it in the pros.

Joe Rogan 26:28 Right. Oh, yeah. For sure.

Firas Zahabi 26:28 They thought, "Oh, he's gonna get killed in the pros."

Joe Rogan 26:30 Right.

Firas Zahabi 26:30 There's never been a short guy. When, when Ali was dancing around people were like, "No, that's not gonna work, he's gonna get tired."

Joe Rogan 26:35 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 26:36 When he goes to the heavyweights-

Joe Rogan 26:37 Right.

Firas Zahabi 26:37 ... heavyweights shouldn't bounce around. And Ali used to spar a lot with lightweights. He'd spar six rounds with lightweights, then six rounds with the heavyweight. Why? Because he would play tag with the lightweight. It was just about speed and movement.

Joe Rogan 26:47 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 26:48 You, you move twice as much with a lightweight.

Joe Rogan 26:50 What is your thoughts on, on hard sparring? Because when you see the Thais and the way they spar, there's some, there's a great benefit in that.

Firas Zahabi 26:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:58 I mean there's a great benefit-

Firas Zahabi 26:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:59 ... in that barely hitting each other shit.

Firas Zahabi 27:00 Yeah. I do that tr- I do a tremendous amount of that. You know one thing, when people spar with me, they're like, "Man, you move so, like..." You know, people are like, "It's so seamless the way you move." And I, I do thousands of hours of live rolling and sparring, but a lot of those hours, I would say 80% of them, is very light, because I know the terrain. I just wanna go through the sequences as many times as I can, and when I'm really, really warmed up, then I'll go hard. You know, I'll start talking smack a bit in the gym and I'll, like, "Oh, come on, let's see what you got." And I'll, I'll, I'll tell the guy when it's time to go really hard.

Joe Rogan 27:29 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 27:29 And we're having fun with it, you know, for me, having fun i- is really, really important. Now, that's training for longevity, but if you have a fight y- I think you need to do six weeks of hard sparring. Why? Because the speed of the fight is very particular. We need to get to fight speed, the actual speed of the fight, 'cause you might get caught sleeping if you, if you haven't done that.

Joe Rogan 27:48 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 27:48 Now, if you have a tremendous amount of fight experience, you don't, you need less of that. So for instance, a Thai who's been fighting since he's eight years old, he can tune up just on the pads and go fight. Why? He's been doing it since the day he can, he can walk, you know, almost. Like you look at a Mayweather, I can get Mayweather ready with just a little mitt work, put him in there, he's gonna be a world champion. Why? It's, it's hardwired. If you look at a baby's brain, h- a baby's brain is not wrinkled like a h- like an adult's brain. It's wrinkled to a s- a small degree. As he goes through his experiences, especially in the first three years of his life, his brain literally gets hardwired and wrinkled, and it gets less and less wrinkled over time. And when you're hardwired to do something, y- the likelihood of you needing to tune up is, is very, is very minimal. Like, for instance, I remember looking at the biography of Mayweather and he was saying when he would go to picnics with his family, his father would bring boxing gloves and he would box with his cousins.

Joe Rogan 28:42 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 28:42 They'd literally be punching each other. S- for him, you know, he's, he, he's been doing it so long, the more experienced you are, the less hard sparring you need.

Joe Rogan 28:50 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 28:51 The more seasoned you are, the less hard sparring you need. You know what fighting is, you just need a little tune up at the end. So if you look at George, George is a great example. He's super skilled and he's super healthy. Some guys get to the high skill level, but they're broken up, their body's broken, their knee is broken, they can barely, they barely have three or four fights left in them.

Joe Rogan 29:10 Right.

Firas Zahabi 29:11 Do you wanna get really, really good and then be broken w- when you got there? You finally, you know, you've been cultivating these skills for 15 years, you get there, you get those skills that you wanted, "Oh, I can't use them, why am I..." The machine is broken. You know, I'm th- I'm 38, I feel like when I was 20, uh, personally, because I spar, 80% of my sparring is very slow and relaxed. Like I use a lot of, I train a lot with purple belts, blue belts and purple belts. Why? Because they couldn't hurt me if they tried. I just toy with them til I'm warmed up, I'm flowing, I'm not really working hard, I'm just flowing, I'm just doing my combinations.

Joe Rogan 29:41 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 29:42 And then when I really wanna have a good challenge, I'll take one of the, my elite guys, one of my pros, and I'll do one or two rounds with them, you know, I won't burn my machine out, you know? Like imagine driving your car in the red light all the time.

Joe Rogan 29:52 Yeah, yeah. Now that's a great way of looking at it. When y- when you guys get ready for a fight, like say if you get George ready for a fight, how much time do you spend on working on his recovery from the workouts, like, like h- do you, you bust out the Tim Tam machine and ice things down? Like how, how aware of you are w- are you guys of like, do you have a, I guess, a regimented program of how to recover from exercise?

Firas Zahabi 30:17 Yeah. Recovery is everything. So it's, it's stress plus recovery equals adaptation. Stress plus stress equals detraining-

Joe Rogan 30:26 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 30:27 ... and injury.

Joe Rogan 30:27 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 30:28 A good trainer, a good trainer, he understands supercompensation, right? You have stress, you have recovery, and then you have a new, uh, level of skill or, uh, ability.If you don't go through the recovery phase, you will not reap the rewards of your training.

Joe Rogan 30:42 Right.

Firas Zahabi 30:42 There has to be a recovery phase.

Joe Rogan 30:43 Right.

Firas Zahabi 30:43 Now, every athlete has a level of recovery that they can, they can achieve. So as you get, as you get more experienced as an athlete, your body can, can... As you become, uh... As you're, as you're more and more fit, I should say, your body can recover from more stress. So I have to gauge how good my s- my student is. It has to be challenging but manageable. If I make it too challenging, I'm red-lining him. He's gonna break. His knee's gonna pop, he's gonna be unmotivated. If it's too easy, he's gonna be bored. I have to find the right amount of stimulus.

Firas Zahabi 31:14 So when I'm in the practice room, if I see George is just mauling guys and destroying them, I have to make it... I have to scale the workout so that it's harder. But I don't wanna scale it so high is that I injure him and break him or that he made it out of practice by a hair and, uh, he's not motivated to do another camp. You know, we, we reach those high intensity levels periodically throughout the year and they have to be done in a certain way that it's fun. Like, y- you know George was like, uh... You know, he was on your show and he was saying I would try to kill him in the practice room.

Joe Rogan 31:40 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 31:42 Now, I... It's true, he's right. But I do it so rarely. I do it so periodically and I make it a joke. That's why, like, what he was trying to say is that I brought in the guys in the, in the room and I was watching them spar with George and they don't wanna touch his face. This is when he was, like, a mega star, like, he was the champ, and nobody wants to try to double leg him. Nobody wants to try to hurt him, because they're like, "I'm not gonna come here in his house and try to show him..." There's a respect thing, there's a, there's a... They're star-struck, you know, these young kids. So I would bring them in and I'd be like, "Listen, guys." I would give a speech. "The first guy to double leg him, the first guy to put him out..." I would put, like, a $5,000 reward. Uh, if they-

Joe Rogan 32:19 To knock him out?

Firas Zahabi 32:19 ... to w- hurt... "If you knock George out, I'll give you $5,000."

Joe Rogan 32:22 Jesus Christ. (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 32:23 "If you put George on his back, if you put George on his back, if you take him down and put him on his back, I'll stop the whole practice and praise you for 20 minutes in front of everybody in the gym." And, and, and students don't get praised by me very often.

Joe Rogan 32:33 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 32:34 So George would be like, "Oh, man. These guys are, they're coming after me." And he would get riled up. And I would do this periodically. Rarely, right? We're we're we're talking about world cl- world title fight, you know, stuff's on the line. And I need these guys to actually show me where George is missing something. 'Cause when you have this perfect practice and you win all the time-

Joe Rogan 32:51 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 32:52 ... what do you work on? Well, nothing went wrong.

Joe Rogan 32:54 Right.

Firas Zahabi 32:54 There's nothing to fix. So I mean, there are times where we really red line him.

Joe Rogan 32:58 Have you ever had anybody knock him out-

Firas Zahabi 32:59 No.

Joe Rogan 32:59 ... in practice and take that money?

Firas Zahabi 33:01 (laughs) Now, uh, he's been dropped once in practice pretty badly and, um, it's a funny story but the, the money wasn't on the line that time. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:09 Ah.

Firas Zahabi 33:09 There was no prize for that. (laughs) One time, he got dropped in practice and, um, I wanted to stop the... I wanted to pull the plug. It was for a world title fight. He was fighting Dan Hardy two weeks before his fight. I, I was sure he was concussed and I said, "George, I'm pulling the, the round." There was one more round. He said to me, "Coach, let me finish the round. I'm okay. Let me finish the next round." And I felt that if I pulled him, I would've killed his confidence.

Joe Rogan 33:34 Right.

Firas Zahabi 33:35 I would've killed his confidence, totally. So I said, "Okay, you could do the next round." And I told the other guy he was sparring with, "Don't land a single glove." Like, I whispered it to him. "Not a single glove on him. Just take a mauling." And George went in the next round not knowing that the other guy's not allowed to hit him at all.

Joe Rogan 33:50 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 33:51 And he just crushes the guy, right? He just, like, mauls him and gets that... And I was really, really grateful for... The other, the other guy was a pro and I was very, very grateful that, you know, he took the beating f- that we asked him to.

Joe Rogan 34:00 Right.

Firas Zahabi 34:01 And, um, George after was like, "Man, I, I know, I know it went bad in round four, but round five was amazing. I was on fire in round five."

Joe Rogan 34:07 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 34:07 I said, "You were. You were, you were." And-

Joe Rogan 34:10 That's sneaky shit.

Firas Zahabi 34:12 He's like, "I, uh... Uh, well, uh, that was... Round four was n- it was just a fluke, you know. Like this, this, this is what I'm gonna look like. Round five." You know, I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." He's like, "And it's a good thing it's Friday, you know, because I have the day off tomorrow." I'm like, "George, today's Saturday." He's like-

Joe Rogan 34:25 Wow.

Firas Zahabi 34:26 ... he was shocked. And he was like, "Today's Saturday?" I'm like, "Yeah." And, and, uh, the UFC was there filming, so I had to like, "Look, guys, that footage can never air." You know, "That footage has gotta disappear." You know, they're like, "Yeah, don't worry. No, we understand the fight's on the line." He was fighting Dan Hardy two weeks later.

Joe Rogan 34:40 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 34:40 That's why that fight he was doing a lot of wrestling 'cause we didn't wanna, like, even chance... I, I was sure he had a concussion when he went in that fight.

Joe Rogan 34:46 Wow.

Firas Zahabi 34:46 Now, pulling the plug on that fight, and a lot of people would be like, "Hey, he put his, like, he put his health on the line." You're right, but it's so much pressure. First of all, George didn't... It has nothing to do with UFC. We kept it from UFC. Like, we told them, like, we told the camera guys, "Bury this." Like, "Don't report it." Like, George would never wanna, uh, um, back out of that fight. It was two weeks from now, everybody's coming to watch this fight. Like, this, this fight, you know, it's been, it's been on the, uh, what do you call that? Primetime? It's been-

Joe Rogan 35:11 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 35:11 ... like three weeks they're filming, you know. Like, this is happening. This fight is happening no matter what, you know? That George is in that mindset. And, uh, but he went in there, honestly, like, uh, you know, after he got dropped pretty badly.

Joe Rogan 35:21 Wow.

Firas Zahabi 35:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:22 That's... You know, Forrest Griffin got knocked out twice before his fight with Anderson Silva.

Firas Zahabi 35:27 Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 35:27 Twice. And apparently one of them was real bad.

Firas Zahabi 35:31 Really?

Joe Rogan 35:32 Yeah. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 35:33 That's so dangerous.

Joe Rogan 35:33 I think he was sparring with Wanderlei and, uh, apparently you don't spar with Wanderlei.

Firas Zahabi 35:38 No, huh?

Joe Rogan 35:38 It's just fights.

Firas Zahabi 35:40 Mm.

Joe Rogan 35:40 Yeah. I mean, he's old school, shoot the box. Especially back then.

Firas Zahabi 35:44 Oh my god.

Joe Rogan 35:45 Yeah, Forrest won't really talk about it too much 'cause he, you know, he doesn't want, doesn't want it to be perceived as an excuse. But he, uh... I mean, how many times have fighters done that? Many, many fighters-

Firas Zahabi 35:56 Countless.

Joe Rogan 35:56 ... have done that. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 35:56 Countless to the point where, like, I just let the fighter decide no, unless I really feel like it's, it's urgent, which is rare that I've actually had to intervene. Because at the end of the day, when are you 100%? It really rarely happens. There's always something.

Joe Rogan 36:09 Right. But the thing about getting knocked out is that if you get knocked out two weeks ago-

Firas Zahabi 36:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:15 ... your odds of getting knocked out are significantly higher.

Firas Zahabi 36:18 I know. I know, man. It's, it's, it's, it's crazy.

Joe Rogan 36:21 And Dan Hardy has a really good strike.

Firas Zahabi 36:22 Oh my god. That left hook, if it would've touched George, George would've been out like a light.

Joe Rogan 36:26 (exhales)

Firas Zahabi 36:26 He's got a cr- crazy left hook. Plus-

Joe Rogan 36:28 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 36:28 ... George was hurt two weeks before.

Joe Rogan 36:29 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 36:31 Thank god it worked out well.

Joe Rogan 36:32 Yeah, it worked out great. (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 36:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:36 Yeah, it's, uh... The balancing act of being a trainer is not something that I envy.

Firas Zahabi 36:39 No, it's tough.It's tough-

Joe Rogan 36:41 It's good.

Firas Zahabi 36:41 ... because I care for these guys, honestly.

Joe Rogan 36:42 Yeah, sure you do.

Firas Zahabi 36:43 It has nothing to do with the business or the money. I couldn't care less, like-

Joe Rogan 36:46 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 36:46 ... I could not care less. But, I know that that guy, he's on a one-way track. So if I'm telling him, "No, p- hit the brakes."

Joe Rogan 36:52 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 36:52 And he's saying, "We're going," that, that break in harmony is gonna create a friction and create a doubt in the fighter.

Joe Rogan 36:59 Right.

Firas Zahabi 36:59 You know, are you, are you all in?

Joe Rogan 37:00 Right.

Firas Zahabi 37:00 Are you all in? You know, because if you're not all in, you're gonna scare your fighter.

Joe Rogan 37:04 Right.

Firas Zahabi 37:04 There's, there's that to consider as well.

Joe Rogan 37:06 Yeah. Um, when you look at the, uh, crop of up-and-coming talent, I mean, eh, this is such a crazy time for MMA. I think when you look at these new guys, like, uh, Zabit is one-

Firas Zahabi 37:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:18 ... of my favorite guys to watch-

Firas Zahabi 37:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:20 ... because he's, th- there's this new crop of guys that can do everything and they're, they're so high level by the time you see them. Like, the, the, the first fight I saw of Zabit in, inside the octagon, I wa- you know, I've seen him on video before, but seeing him live, you're like, "Holy shit."

Firas Zahabi 37:37 He's amazing.

Joe Rogan 37:38 But he's not just amazing, it's like this is, this is this next level.

Firas Zahabi 37:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:43 Like there's another level. Like we've seen these e- these elite fighters and everyone's great at jujitsu. Everyone's got great take-down defense. Everyone knows how to strike. But then you're seeing this new flavor, this like, this, okay, the frequency is now higher and it just seems to me that every year or so, there's these new guys that jump through-

Firas Zahabi 38:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:03 ... and you going, "Okay, well now the frequency is quite a bit higher than it was before."

Firas Zahabi 38:07 It's seamless.

Joe Rogan 38:08 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 38:08 The transitions are more and more seamless-

Joe Rogan 38:10 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 38:10 ... which is amazing.

Joe Rogan 38:11 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 38:11 Because they're just... You're seeing they're processing it faster.

Joe Rogan 38:13 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 38:14 And as they're doing the take-down, like Dimitris is flowing into an arm bar-

Joe Rogan 38:17 Right.

Firas Zahabi 38:17 ... before the take-down is even finished.

Joe Rogan 38:19 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 38:19 And you're like, the next generation is watching that.

Joe Rogan 38:21 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 38:22 And they've adopted that now.

Joe Rogan 38:23 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 38:23 So they're gonna flow into a transition, into an ar- Like it's, it's, it's getting, it's getting more and more seamless. Their computers are, are, are computing faster and faster information.

Joe Rogan 38:32 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 38:33 They're thinking what they're gonna do on the ground before it hits the ground. It's, it's, it's in- it is incredible.

Joe Rogan 38:37 And they know what can be done now.

Firas Zahabi 38:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:39 They've seen it all.

Firas Zahabi 38:40 The possibilities.

Joe Rogan 38:41 Yeah, so they have this database in their mind of accomplishments that have already been achieved-

Firas Zahabi 38:45 They have.

Joe Rogan 38:45 ... by other fighters, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 38:46 They've been awakened.

Joe Rogan 38:47 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 38:47 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:47 It's fucking crazy, man. When you stop and think about when you first got involved in the sport and then look at the level that fighters are at now, there's not really a commensurate sport in terms of like modern mainstream sports where you've, people have achieved such an incredibly high level of proficiency that so far exceeds where it was a decade ago or two decades ago. There's really no, no comparison.

Firas Zahabi 39:10 No, the growth rate is ridiculous.

Joe Rogan 39:11 It's fucking amazing.

Firas Zahabi 39:13 It's incredible.

Joe Rogan 39:13 And I, I don't think it's a, a, a, a coincidence that the growth rate in this sport is incredible and this is the sport that has the most amount of variables in terms of combat sports.

Firas Zahabi 39:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:24 The most amount of variables in terms-

Firas Zahabi 39:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:26 ... of what, what a fighter can do to you.

Firas Zahabi 39:27 There are more, uh, ways to win than any other combat sport, obviously.

Joe Rogan 39:32 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 39:33 And that's why I find it's m- See, the more you limit us, an athlete, the more it's about torque. So for instance, if you look at sprinting, if I were to race Usain Bolt and I had all the best trainers, the best sprint coaches, and Usain Bolt had the most mediocre, mediocre sprint coaches, and we race when we're both 20 years old in our prime, who's gonna win?

Joe Rogan 39:54 You. (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 39:56 (laughs) I appreciate the- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:58 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 39:59 ... the- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:59 Hey. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 40:00 ... the, the confidence.

Joe Rogan 40:00 I mean, it's a joke question, right?

Firas Zahabi 40:01 Right. He's gonna win, right?

Joe Rogan 40:02 Yeah, for sure.

Firas Zahabi 40:03 Put us in MMA, we're the same weight class, same height, everything's the same. He, I have the best coaches, he has the worst coaches, who's gonna win?

Joe Rogan 40:10 You're gonna fuck him up.

Firas Zahabi 40:11 I'm gonna kill him.

Joe Rogan 40:12 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 40:12 Because coaching now is, has a greater, um, influence.

Joe Rogan 40:16 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 40:16 You know, sprinters say, sprint coaches say, "We can make you faster. We cannot make you fast." You have to be born fast-

Joe Rogan 40:21 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 40:21 ... and we could shave off a few milliseconds.

Joe Rogan 40:23 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 40:24 In MMA, we can make you... I can take a regular Joe and get him all the way up to UFC. I can't make him UFC champion. I won't say I can make him UFC champion. To be UFC champion, you need a talent.

Joe Rogan 40:33 Right.

Firas Zahabi 40:34 Okay. There's a, there's a l- There's a talent there to be in the 1%. But to get you to UFC, because there are so many possibilities, there are so many ways to trick your opponent, there are so many ways to turn the tables on him-

Joe Rogan 40:45 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 40:45 ... that torque no longer matters or torque is, uh, less significant. So if we're talking about football where I'm only allowed to do these certain maneuvers, trickery is put to the side, you're not allowed to trick me. But in MMA, you're allowed to trick me any which way you want. There are very few little rules, okay? But outside of these, these, uh, barred rules, these barred maneuvers, you can trick me any which way you want. So what happens is you take your opponent into a maze, you take your opponent into a world where torque doesn't matter so much. And that's why the more restrictive a, a sport is, let's say for instance boxing, boxing is more restrictive than Muay Thai. So the guys with torque are gonna do better in boxing than they will necessarily in Muay Thai 'cause in Muay Thai, I can use more trickery.

Joe Rogan 41:25 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 41:25 I could be a little dweeb and just beat you with clinching, or I could beat you with a trick kick, or I could beat you with a back, a back kick. Now for instance, a back kick, anybody can generate knockout power with a back kick. However, with a right cross or left hook, not everybody's gonna have that bone-crushing power. However, if you teach somebody how to throw a proper back kick, which you know 'cause you got the best back kick in the game, you could teach a, a regular Joe in a few years how to generate knockout power. So now he, he ha- he has that element on the table. So because MMA is so, um, uh, you know, there's so few rules, we have, uh, a greater environment for the intellect to, to, to shine.

Joe Rogan 42:02 Mm-hmm. You said something once to one of your fighters in between rounds and, and it really stood out. You said, "I want you to overwhelm his mind with possibilities."

Firas Zahabi 42:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:12 Like you're, you're, you're overwhelming him. You're making him think about all the potential variables that are coming his way.

Firas Zahabi 42:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:18 All right. That is a great way to put it.

Firas Zahabi 42:19 Mm-hmm. We talk about, um, uh, variety. So everybody's looking for a pattern. If I do jab, jab, cross, and I do it three, four times, the fourth time you're gonna, you're gonna see it. It's gonna be slower to you. Why? Because your body's gonna, your brain is, is, uh, a- again, this is all hypothetical. This is just my personal experience. I'm basing this on my own personal experience. When somebody does something to me a second or third time, it, I see it. Personally, I feel like I'm perceiving it slower.And I have a window to counter you. However, when I spar with George, George is the trickiest guy, I'll tell you why. Because he's, he has so many tricks, he has so many attacks that he rarely, rarely ever shows you the same trick twice. And he's the master at adapting, so if you do a trick on him once and you try it again, he's gonna shut you down. So look at all his rematches. When he rematched BJ Penn, when he rematched Matt Hughes, every time they rematched it was progressively worse. The third time he fought Matt Hughes, it was even easier. Don't try the same trick on George twice. You're gonna get crushed. And I, I think that's why me, as a, as a martial artist, I developed, like, a lot of variety of skill, because every week I'd have to come up with a new trick, or else George is gonna shut that down.

Joe Rogan 43:24 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 43:24 So after 10 years, I've b- started becoming like a trickster, you know. What other magic trick can I get away with one time?

Joe Rogan 43:28 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 43:28 'Cause next week, I needed a new trick 'cause it won't work on him again. He's, he's gonna get wise to it. He's a master at, at... It, it might work once on him. The second time, you're gonna get shut down.

Joe Rogan 43:37 Well, I feel like that was a factor in Dominick Cruz losing to Cody Garbrandt.

Firas Zahabi 43:43 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 43:43 'Cause those alpha male guys had seen-

Firas Zahabi 43:46 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 43:46 ... that trick so many times.

Firas Zahabi 43:47 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 43:47 They're like, "Okay. We can..." Like, apparently, Justin Buchholz can imitate Dominick-

Firas Zahabi 43:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:52 ... Cruz in training.

Firas Zahabi 43:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:53 Like that weird herky-jerky move-

Firas Zahabi 43:55 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 43:55 ... with the hands down.

Firas Zahabi 43:56 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 43:57 He's a weird one, man. He's one of the-

Firas Zahabi 43:58 He is.

Joe Rogan 43:59 ... weird... Out of all the fighters I've ever watched fight-

Firas Zahabi 44:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:01 ... Dominick might be the weirdest.

Firas Zahabi 44:02 I agree.

Joe Rogan 44:03 'Cause you, you look at him and he's... First of all, he's such a, he's a great guy.

Firas Zahabi 44:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:08 A very smart guy, but he's crazy in, in weird ways. Like, one of the things that he says, like, "Ah, I'm just not very flexible."

Firas Zahabi 44:15 (laughs) Like, what are you s- why are you even saying that? Like, that doesn't even make any sense to me. Like, why not get more flexible? Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:21 It's like, it's not like saying, like, "Oh, uh, I'm too short."

Firas Zahabi 44:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:25 "Well, you can't grow-

Firas Zahabi 44:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:26 ... so you're fucked."

Firas Zahabi 44:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:27 "You know, you're never gonna play basketball."

Firas Zahabi 44:29 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:30 Saying, "I'm not flexible enough," is like-

Firas Zahabi 44:32 That's an easy fix.

Joe Rogan 44:33 That's the dumbest thing to ever say.

Firas Zahabi 44:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:35 It's like... I mean, it's so b- it's so much more dumb than, "I'm not strong enough." Be, well, if you gain weight from muscle, you might not be in that weight-

Firas Zahabi 44:42 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:42 ... class anymore. You got a real problem there.

Firas Zahabi 44:44 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 44:44 But, "I'm not flexible enough," you got zero problem.

Firas Zahabi 44:47 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:47 You just have to stretch.

Firas Zahabi 44:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:49 But he doesn't stretch.

Firas Zahabi 44:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:50 Like, we were talking about jujitsu techniques. He's like, "Ah, I can't play that hard guard, guard, high guard shit. I don't have any flexibility." I'm like, "Okay."

Firas Zahabi 44:57 (laughs) What are you saying? Like, that doesn't make any sense. And, like, head kicks and-

Joe Rogan 45:02 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 45:02 ... things along those lines. He's, like, very stiff in his legs with throwing kicks. I'm like, that's, that- That's a easy fix.

Joe Rogan 45:07 Yeah, that's an easy fix. Mm-hmm. Why wouldn't you fix that?

Firas Zahabi 45:10 Hmm... Ah, it's a good question.

Joe Rogan 45:12 But, but also the mindset of a champion in this same guy who-

Firas Zahabi 45:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:20 ... just, just, "Ah, fuck it. I c- I'm not flexible." Like, I don't even understand how those things live together in the same mind.

Firas Zahabi 45:26 If I was training him, I would make him head kick. Like, that's what I would insist on.

Joe Rogan 45:29 All day long.

Firas Zahabi 45:29 Head kicks have to be there.

Joe Rogan 45:30 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 45:30 Because he doesn't knock guys out with his hands, so he, the head kick has to always be a possibility, always a threat.

Joe Rogan 45:34 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 45:34 And then you will knock out guys with your hands because they'll have their high guard up 'cause they don't want that kick, and then an uppercut will come, the body shot will come, the back kick will c- I'll make him back kick for sure. Like, if you don't have power in your hands, you need to back kick. You need to head kick. Those are two weapons that can always knock a guy out.

Joe Rogan 45:49 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 45:49 So you don't back kick, you don't head kick, you're never scoring knockouts.

Joe Rogan 45:52 Right. Yeah, that's a good point, man. It's, uh, when... Did you see this Stephen Thompson thing with Darren Till where he wants them to outlaw that side kick to the knee?

Firas Zahabi 46:01 No, I didn't see that.

Joe Rogan 46:02 Well, apparently his knee got really fucked up in the Darren Till fight.

Firas Zahabi 46:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:06 You know, what do you, what do you think about that side kick-

Firas Zahabi 46:08 The oblique?

Joe Rogan 46:08 ... to the knee that everyone's doing? Not even the oblique kick, just the front leg side kick to the knee. The same way Yoel Romero used it-

Firas Zahabi 46:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:14 ... on Robert Whittaker, fucked up his knee in the first fight.

Firas Zahabi 46:16 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:16 And then Whittaker used it on Romero, like, right away-

Firas Zahabi 46:19 Beautiful.

Joe Rogan 46:19 ... in the second fight-

Firas Zahabi 46:20 Beautiful.

Joe Rogan 46:20 ... to fuck up his knee.

Firas Zahabi 46:21 Mm-hmm. Um, I think it's a legitimate kick.

Joe Rogan 46:25 Yeah, I think so too.

Firas Zahabi 46:25 It's a legitimate, 100% kick. It, it allows the smaller, weaker guy to hurt the bigger, stronger guy.

Joe Rogan 46:31 Well, and in the case of Darren Till, it allows the bigger, stronger guy-

Firas Zahabi 46:34 Yes.

Joe Rogan 46:34 ... to hurt the other bigger, stronger guy.

Firas Zahabi 46:35 Of course.

Joe Rogan 46:36 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 46:36 I- i- if it works for the smaller guy, it works for the bigger guy.

Joe Rogan 46:37 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 46:38 Right? So... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:38 It's just a legit... It's, I think so too. It's a legit technique-

Firas Zahabi 46:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:41 ... you have to prepare for.

Firas Zahabi 46:42 To... Yeah, exactly. You're standing in a way that... You, you see, when somebody's standing sideways-

Joe Rogan 46:47 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 46:48 ... they're harder to punch. They're easier to kick. So you're saying, "Look, I wanna stand in this way where I'm harder to punch, but I don't want you to kick me."

Joe Rogan 46:55 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 46:55 So if I stand square, I'm more susceptible to back kick, more susceptible to punches, but less sus- susceptible to leg kicks or the oblique kick or the side kick to the knee or whatnot.

Joe Rogan 47:05 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 47:06 Now, I'm not saying to you, "Don't punch me," 'cause I'm more vulnerable this way. So whatever your vulnerability is, you chose that vulnerability by standing sideways.

Joe Rogan 47:15 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 47:15 Why don't the Thais stand sideways? Because they know they're gonna get chopped to the leg, right?

Joe Rogan 47:18 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 47:18 They're always fighting good kickers. They're always fighting amazing kickers. When you go to Thailand, the guy may be a good puncher, but he's for sure a great kicker. Like, you're not gonna run into a guy who doesn't know how to kick. They all know how to kick, knee, and elbow, and some of them know how to punch really, really well also. So they stand in a way, Muay Thai has developed in a way, that's very anti-kick, anti-knee, anti-elbow, and it's not as defensive, uh, to the punches. So if I wanna stand, if I wanna avoid punches, I'll stand more bladed. Let's say I'm, I'm fighting, uh, like a BJ Penn who's very heavy-handed and more of a puncher, he doesn't kick much. Well, I'm gonna stand bladed. Like you see with George, we made him drop one hand. Why? So he can use his jab from, from down to up, right? 'Cause it's faster, has a greater reach, and it's harder to counter. Whereas if he would've stood more square, in Muay Thai it would've been useless 'cause BJ doesn't kick.

Joe Rogan 48:04 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 48:05 But then you'd be more open to punches.

Joe Rogan 48:06 Right.

Firas Zahabi 48:07 So the way you're standing, the way, uh, uh, Wonderboy's standing, that, the antagonist to that, the, the antidote to that is that kick.So how could you stand that way? Just switch the way you're standing. And now, it, okay, now you, you're more s- open to punches but that's adaptation, that's what fighting's about. It's rock, paper, scissors. If I use rock I, I don't, I don't outlaw paper. I don't say, "Everybody, hey, nobody is allowed to use paper."

Joe Rogan 48:28 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 48:28 No, but that's the antidote to what you're doing.

Joe Rogan 48:29 Yeah. Uh, an- and when the Thais fight they have that very light front leg-

Firas Zahabi 48:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:33 Which would prevent that front leg side kick to the knee.

Firas Zahabi 48:35 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 48:36 'Cause they're always, like, very light. So if you kick their knee there, it's just gonna go backwards anyway.

Firas Zahabi 48:40 But to stand that way, they're standing that way at a cost.

Joe Rogan 48:42 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 48:43 Their punches.

Joe Rogan 48:43 And also the cost, they, they don't have the ability to use that movement, that front leg-

Firas Zahabi 48:48 Lateral.

Joe Rogan 48:49 ... front leg movement the way that Wonderboy does too.

Firas Zahabi 48:51 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:51 Wonderboy is the master of the front leg.

Firas Zahabi 48:54 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 48:54 Like he's, he's the best at standing completely side ki- when he fought Johnny Hendricks is a good example, he threw a sidekick to the body-

Firas Zahabi 49:02 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:02 ... Hendricks stood there and then he went to roundhouse kick to the face.

Firas Zahabi 49:05 Masterpiece.

Joe Rogan 49:05 With the same leg.

Firas Zahabi 49:06 Masterpiece.

Joe Rogan 49:07 And, and Hendricks you could see was like, "Fuck."

Firas Zahabi 49:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:09 Like, "What is this guy doing?"

Firas Zahabi 49:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:10 It was like thump, okay, back, oh shit. Like he thought like, "Yeah, you got me with that but that's not a big deal." And then pop, he gets roundhouse kicked in the face.

Firas Zahabi 49:18 That was a, a masterful performance.

Joe Rogan 49:20 Yeah, it was one of his best for sure.

Firas Zahabi 49:22 He's incredible.

Joe Rogan 49:23 Well, it just shows you the difference between a guy who is, you know, just trying to, like, kinda plod in with n- a limited movement, and a guy like Wonderboy who's just one of the most difficult guys to sort of pin down.

Firas Zahabi 49:36 Yeah, incredible.

Joe Rogan 49:38 Yeah, his style's very unique and I'm, I'm, uh, fascinated with him and I'm really fascinated right now with Michael Venom Page.

Firas Zahabi 49:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:44 Been watching... Do you see his pro boxing fights?

Firas Zahabi 49:47 No, I didn't see.

Joe Rogan 49:48 Right now he's a can crusher.

Firas Zahabi 49:49 Actually I saw one, I saw one, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:50 He's a can crusher. He's, he's fighting these guys and they're setting him up for these-

Firas Zahabi 49:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:54 ... spectacular knockouts.

Firas Zahabi 49:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:56 But it's still that blitz point karate style that Raymond Daniels has-

Firas Zahabi 50:01 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:01 ... that a lot of these guys have and Raymond's obviously-

Firas Zahabi 50:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:03 ... adapted very well for kickboxing.

Firas Zahabi 50:05 I've trained with Raymond quite a bit.

Joe Rogan 50:07 He's a beast.

Firas Zahabi 50:07 You gotta get him on the show, man. He's such a great guy.

Joe Rogan 50:09 Oh, I would love to.

Firas Zahabi 50:09 Yeah, I have to connect you two.

Joe Rogan 50:10 Okay.

Firas Zahabi 50:11 He's amazing.

Joe Rogan 50:11 Yeah, we had talked a little bit in the past-

Firas Zahabi 50:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:14 ... about perhaps doing something on Twitter.

Firas Zahabi 50:15 He knocks guys out in about 90 seconds on a regular basis. And how does he do it? He does it with a back kick. He's the master-

Joe Rogan 50:23 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 50:24 ... at finding a place for the back kick. You don't wanna get hit with his back kick. Like I know-

Joe Rogan 50:27 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 50:27 ... you got an incredible back kick, I bet you it's more powerful than his, okay? But I'll tell you one thing, he will fit that back kick-

Joe Rogan 50:34 Everywhere.

Firas Zahabi 50:35 ... everywhere.

Joe Rogan 50:35 Yeah, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 50:35 And he'll do it in a way you won't see it coming but it's gonna hurt so much more.

Joe Rogan 50:40 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 50:40 Now he rarely knocks guys out with his hands. He does surprise guys with his hands every so often, but that back kick, you don't wanna be there.

Joe Rogan 50:45 Well, he seems like he's getting better with his hands.

Firas Zahabi 50:47 Yes, yes.

Joe Rogan 50:47 His hands are improving. But he-

Firas Zahabi 50:48 He trains a lot.

Joe Rogan 50:49 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 50:49 He trains a lot, that guy.

Joe Rogan 50:50 I'm sure.

Firas Zahabi 50:50 I mean, he's a, he's a, he's still at it.

Joe Rogan 50:52 And he's what? 35, 36 now?

Firas Zahabi 50:54 Yeah, I would say around there.

Joe Rogan 50:54 Yeah. That one, was it, uh, what's his name? Ong Bang, was that the guy he knocked out with that touch front leg side kick and then jumped up in the air-

Firas Zahabi 51:03 Oh my god.

Joe Rogan 51:03 ... and hit him with the spinning back kick to the face? Woo!

Firas Zahabi 51:07 That's unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 51:07 That was some video game shit.

Firas Zahabi 51:08 That's unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 51:09 He just jumps up, tap, pop! And then hits him with a second kick.

Firas Zahabi 51:12 Unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 51:12 Yeah. That's a standard kick.

Firas Zahabi 51:13 Yes, it is.

Joe Rogan 51:14 You know, for, for Raymond Daniels.

Firas Zahabi 51:15 But he does it the best I've ever seen, personally.

Joe Rogan 51:17 Yeah, no, no one better.

Firas Zahabi 51:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:19 You know, you gotta go back to like Rick The Jet Rufus.

Firas Zahabi 51:21 Oh, my, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:22 You know, when he fought that, the, that really classic fight where he fought that Thai fighter and he got his legs chopped out.

Firas Zahabi 51:27 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:27 And everybody was like, "Oh, shit." That people really gotta understand the-

Firas Zahabi 51:31 Muay Thai.

Joe Rogan 51:31 ... Muay Thai. But he hit that guy with that same kick, that front leg side kick and then spun in the air and hit him with a turning sidekick in the face.

Firas Zahabi 51:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:38 Yeah, man, it's... I love watching that point karate style, that blitz style-

Firas Zahabi 51:44 I love it.

Joe Rogan 51:44 ... I love watching that enter into MMA. Because I used to spar with a lot of those guys and it's fucking hard to deal with. Those guys that are really good at that, that, uh, that fast sprint at you, blitz. And when you do that and then you also have take down defense and Muay Thai skills and jujitsu, it's like, "Fuck, man, that's a, that's a lethal skill to have."

Firas Zahabi 52:04 Hmm, I love, I love doing boxing, Muay Thai, karate, taekwondo. I love, I love blending it all. I believe all of it is good.

Joe Rogan 52:10 Here it is right here, boom!

Firas Zahabi 52:11 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:12 Just play that, play that back again. (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 52:14 Unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 52:14 I mean, come on, man. This is fucking crazy shit the way he does it too. He just hops up, touches you with the front leg, pang! And the second one's... And look, he looks down like he's in a fucking video game. I mean, that is crazy that this guy is pulling that off. That was when he was in Glory. Look at this, tap, boom!

Firas Zahabi 52:34 Oh, my.

Joe Rogan 52:34 I mean, come on, man. Who the fuck does that?

Firas Zahabi 52:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:38 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 52:38 And he does that all the time, eh?

Joe Rogan 52:39 All the time!

Firas Zahabi 52:39 That's, that's not, that's not like a one-off.

Joe Rogan 52:41 No, no, he could do that all day, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 52:43 Me-

Joe Rogan 52:43 And there's a lot of those karate guys that have that skillset. They, they, they can do, like, you know those breaking demonstrations where they hold up pads and they'll do 360 wheel kicks and break pads?

Firas Zahabi 52:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:54 And I mean, there's, there's some legitimate karate and traditional martial arts techniques that are finding their way into MMA.

Firas Zahabi 53:01 Absolutely, you just have to know how to use it.

Joe Rogan 53:03 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 53:04 And, uh, just because a karate guy got beat up by a grappler doesn't mean all the karate he's trained is not good.

Joe Rogan 53:09 Right, exactly. And he's also, he needs to learn how to grapple.

Firas Zahabi 53:11 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 53:11 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 53:11 He needs to learn how to stay on his feet and he needs to learn how to grapple and he needs to learn to set that kick up in a way... Because the thing is if you're always fighting another karate guy and then you fight a boxer, the bo- boxer's behavior is just different. You have to get used-

Joe Rogan 53:22 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 53:22 ... it's like what we were saying before, you have to get used to it. And then all of a sudden you saw the same movie 100 times, you know how to deal with it. You know, it's like you watch the same movie over and over again, you start, you start predicting what the, the scene is gonna be. You're not caught by surprise. When you're caught by surprise, you're done.

Joe Rogan 53:36 Right.

Firas Zahabi 53:36 You've never done jujitsu before and I'm doing an armbar, a basic armbar, you're getting caught with it.

Joe Rogan 53:40 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 53:40 You know, that's why I believe you gotta know everything out there but you gotta specialize. Don't, don't try to master everything.

Joe Rogan 53:46 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 53:46 Know everything-... like, I like to know d'arces, triangle, heel hook, even though I'm not a, necessarily a d'arce guy. But I wanna know everything about d'arces. I don't wanna drill it all day long, I just wanna know about it.

Joe Rogan 53:56 Right.

Firas Zahabi 53:57 Because when you're trying to put your d'arce on, I know what you're trying to do. I'm familiar with what you're going for. I can break out of it.

Joe Rogan 54:02 You don't go for d'arces?

Firas Zahabi 54:03 I do, I do, I do. But, um, I mean, I'm not... I wouldn't say it's my best submission. I do do d'arces, no doubt about it.

Joe Rogan 54:09 Well, you, uh, you don't have the longest arms in the world.

Firas Zahabi 54:11 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 54:11 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 54:12 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 54:12 Do you ever try a Japanese neck tie?

Firas Zahabi 54:14 Uh, yes. I don't use them that much but, um, I'm familiar with them.

Joe Rogan 54:17 It's the solution for guys-

Firas Zahabi 54:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:19 ... who don't have long arms, right?

Firas Zahabi 54:20 Really?

Joe Rogan 54:20 I have short arms too but the Japanese neck tie, I became a specialist at that. When you-

Firas Zahabi 54:24 Mm-hmm, really?

Joe Rogan 54:25 Yeah, you get that clamp over the top-

Firas Zahabi 54:26 Okay.

Joe Rogan 54:27 ... of the neck, and then you drop down with the left shoulder and you tuck the head into the forehead-

Firas Zahabi 54:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:31 ... and you hook one of the legs with your leg.

Firas Zahabi 54:33 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:33 And then you crank that neck up-

Firas Zahabi 54:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:35 ... so it's a... You're pushing in with your chest and then-

Firas Zahabi 54:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:37 ... cranking that. It's, it comes-

Firas Zahabi 54:39 I'll have to try it.

Joe Rogan 54:39 It comes quick too. I'll sharpen it up.

Firas Zahabi 54:40 It's a nasty, nasty neck crank.

Joe Rogan 54:42 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 54:43 I love it.

Joe Rogan 54:43 Amazing.

Firas Zahabi 54:43 It's just so good. And it's also... It's, uh, it's there a lot.

Joe Rogan 54:47 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 54:47 It's one of those techniques that people, uh, they're not aware of the danger of that, that one position. You know, there's a, a few guys that are really good at it and, you know, whenever you feel that arm going underneath your neck, you're like, "Fuck, I gotta get outta here," 'cause it's such an easy one to cinch up. Like-

Joe Rogan 55:02 Oh, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 55:02 ... the d'arce is hard. It's hard to cinch, to get all the way up.

Joe Rogan 55:05 For us, for us.

Firas Zahabi 55:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:06 Yeah, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 55:06 Like, I remember working with Marcelo. Like, I got to train with Marcelo Garcia. And, uh, we were doing a... just a one-on-one, a training session. And, uh, he was telling me he doesn't like d'arce. Right? I was like... He doesn't teach d'arces, doesn't believe in d'arce. And I'm like, "But your arms are short, you know?"

Joe Rogan 55:21 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 55:21 If you had this monstrously long guy, you won't tell him to do d'arce? "No, no, no, don't do d'arce. It's not good. It's not a good submission because your arm's in the way." I'm like, "Dude, there's some guys with the w- the, the most devastating d'arces. Like, you, you don't wanna be in their d'arce, you know?"

Joe Rogan 55:32 Yeah. Tony Ferguson.

Firas Zahabi 55:33 Exactly. He doesn't like leg locks. He says, "No, leg locks are no good." But...

Joe Rogan 55:36 Oh, that's so crazy (laughs) .

Firas Zahabi 55:38 I- imagine if Paul Harris walks into your gym and you're gonna be like, "No, don't do leg locks." Like, dude, that's his game, man.

Joe Rogan 55:42 But he tapped out Rico Rodriguez with a heel hook-

Firas Zahabi 55:45 You're right.

Joe Rogan 55:45 ... in Abu Dhabi.

Firas Zahabi 55:46 He would tell you-

Joe Rogan 55:46 I was there.

Firas Zahabi 55:47 ... it's not a good submission. It shouldn't have worked.

Joe Rogan 55:49 Oh, that's hilarious.

Firas Zahabi 55:50 Yeah. He was telling me he doesn't like, uh, his guys to wrestle. I'm like, "Why?" I'm like, "When you fought Jake Shields, you did a single leg and you took him down." He's like, "He shouldn't have fell." He said, "Jake Shields shouldn't have fell," he said. But I'm like, "Your wrestling is good." He's like, "No, no, no. You shouldn't wrestle a wrestler at all."

Joe Rogan 56:04 What the fuck?

Firas Zahabi 56:04 And I was like, "I, I get, I get what you're trying to say, but there's a time and place where I'll wrestle a wrestler. When I f- see a good vulnerability."

Joe Rogan 56:10 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 56:11 And, um, I don't know. He, he's very... I think he's changed over the years, but when I was... When I rolled with him, he was, like, at the top, you know?

Joe Rogan 56:16 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 56:16 You, I wouldn't question him. I wouldn't... Like-

Joe Rogan 56:18 Right.

Firas Zahabi 56:18 ... you know, who am I to, Who am I to tell him I don't agree, you know? Like, he doesn't like kimura. He would tell me, "No, don't do kimuras."

Joe Rogan 56:23 Too much muscle, right? That's what he said.

Firas Zahabi 56:24 Uh, it's a power move, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:25 Yeah, it's a power move, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 56:26 But when you look at his career, he... All of the things he doesn't like, he's, that's what he's been caught with. Like, uh-

Joe Rogan 56:30 Right?

Firas Zahabi 56:30 ... Braulio caught him with a d'arce. Uh-

Joe Rogan 56:32 Jacare caught him with a kimura.

Firas Zahabi 56:34 Jacare caught him with a kimura. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:34 You know, like... Yeah, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 56:35 Um-

Joe Rogan 56:36 That's right. Braulio caught him with a d'arce.

Firas Zahabi 56:37 But I didn't, um... Who else caught him with a d'arce?

Joe Rogan 56:40 Uh, Braulio caught him, uh, once or twice. Once, I think.

Firas Zahabi 56:42 Um...

Joe Rogan 56:43 Oh, uh, uh-

Firas Zahabi 56:44 Drysdale, Drysdale, Drysdale.

Joe Rogan 56:45 Drysdale caught him with a d'arce.

Firas Zahabi 56:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:46 You know, d'arce work real good, man (laughs) .

Firas Zahabi 56:48 They, they do when, if, when you... If you have the attributes, they're great.

Joe Rogan 56:51 Yeah. Why would he say he doesn't teach the d'arce? That's so crazy.

Firas Zahabi 56:53 Uh, I think he's got short arms and for him-

Joe Rogan 56:55 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 56:55 ... it doesn't work. He doesn't like, uh, arm triangle. He says, "No, forget the arm triangle."

Joe Rogan 56:58 What?

Firas Zahabi 56:59 Yeah. I'm like, "Dude, that's my specialty."

Joe Rogan 57:00 You ever feel George's arm triangle? Like-

Firas Zahabi 57:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:02 Arm triangles are nasty.

Firas Zahabi 57:03 I'm sure... Yeah, it's destructive.

Joe Rogan 57:05 Well, a guy like George who's such a crusher-

Firas Zahabi 57:06 He's got long arms too.

Joe Rogan 57:07 Yeah, and he's heavy.

Firas Zahabi 57:08 Oh, my-

Joe Rogan 57:09 He's just heavy w- puts that weight on you.

Firas Zahabi 57:11 Dude.

Joe Rogan 57:11 He knows how to control and squish.

Firas Zahabi 57:12 I will never let my arm get across my body 'cause I know it's over.

Joe Rogan 57:15 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 57:15 There's two things you never wanna give George. Kimura, 'cause he'll rip your arm off.

Joe Rogan 57:19 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 57:20 And two, dar- uh, an- uh-

Joe Rogan 57:22 Arm triangle.

Firas Zahabi 57:22 ... arm triangle.

Joe Rogan 57:23 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 57:23 Kata-gatame.

Joe Rogan 57:24 Yeah, there's, there's, uh... Rafael Lovato, he's, he's got a nasty fucking arm triangle, you know?

Firas Zahabi 57:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:30 He's competing in Bellator now. I'm, I'm always fascinated when I see, like, super, super high level jujitsu guys that enter into MMA-

Firas Zahabi 57:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:38 ... because I'm like, "Okay, well for sure, these guys who are used to just training MMA and train... They are not gonna know what the fuck hits them-

Firas Zahabi 57:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:47 ... when a guy like Roger Gracie grabs them."

Firas Zahabi 57:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:50 Or, like, a guy like Demian Maia. And we've seen it time and time again. There's, th- there's a difference in the level. And so the argument is always, should you be... Just, like, what's the best way to be? Is the best way to be an elite specialist at one particular thing-

Firas Zahabi 58:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:04 ... like a Raymond Daniels-

Firas Zahabi 58:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:05 ... or a Wonderboy? Or is it to be a guy who can kind of do everything really well-

Firas Zahabi 58:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:11 ... like George?

Firas Zahabi 58:12 So, here, here's my pers- perspective on that. That's such a great question. I mean, that's the heart of training. You could flood your system so that... What does that mean? When you flood your system, you're giving your student too many things to master.

Joe Rogan 58:23 Hm.

Firas Zahabi 58:23 He's just really not good at anything.

Joe Rogan 58:25 Right.

Firas Zahabi 58:26 Or you can bottleneck him. You're giving him too few skills that people know what he does. Like, for instance, a classic example is Chuck Liddell. He went on a tear for a while, but he's still the same guy. And after a while, the next generation, they understood what he does, they understood the pockets where you're safe, where you're in danger. Like, Machida is a great example. Early on, he was such a mystery. Now we're like, "Okay, we get what he does." We've s- understood his patterns. Patterns are huge in fighting, and in life, period. Human beings are pattern detecting machines, whether they know it or not, whether they can verbalize it or not. We are pattern detecting machines. That's why I like sparring a lot, because sparring... I have had a thousand people throw a right hand at me. When you throw your right hand, my mind, the subconscious is gonna compare that right hand you're throwing to a thousand different right hands I saw. And it's gonna say, "It looks, matches this one the most." Again, this is my narrative. And this is what I see. And this has personally been my experience, right? When I train somebody who's new and you throw a punch at them, they flinch. Why? They, y- you have overwhelmed them with information. But after a while, they see a punch and they relax and they see it and they... And it seems slow motion, because at first, it was too fast for them. It's too much to compute.

Joe Rogan 59:30 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 59:31 So, my students, what I do is I give them a small amount of technique, and when they get better I give them a new technique. So, I, I want them to get a certain level of competence with that technique. And my standard is it has to be instinctual. If the technique is instinctual, I've taught it to you well, meaning if you've done it, uh, live on the mat-... on a regular basis, you execute on a regular basis, it's time for me now to give you another gem. Because if I don't give you another gem, I'm gonna bottleneck your art. You're gonna become too predictable. But if I give you a gem too early, if I give you another technique too early, I'm flooding your system. I'm flooding the, your game. It's, your game is just, it's diluted. It's just too weak. So with George, we're always reinventing George for the next fight. We're always adding one new or two new gems, depending on how much time we have. But there's always an X factor. When you fight him, he's not gonna do the same patterns we did the last fight. You could watch his tape. That's why I told George, "Why is it harder to be champion than to become champion?" Because when you're champion, everybody's watching you and studying your patterns.

Joe Rogan 1:00:28 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 1:00:28 It's a matter of time be- before you're old news. So you gotta reinvent yourself before the next fight. That's why I didn't want him fighting three times a year. I told him, "You fight twice a year." And they were making a comparative with Chuck, I got a lot of heat for that. They're like, "Chuck fights three times a year, George should fight three times a year." We're like, "We'll see what, how, how our careers go." But yeah, I want George to fight twice a year, because to reinvent him takes six months. We're gonna do that twice a year. That way he'll be