JRE MMA Show #42 with Teddy Atlas

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Four, three, two, one.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Four, three, two, one. And we're live. Teddy Atlas, thanks for being here, man. I really appreciate it.

   2. TATeddy Atlas0:10

      Sorry, I'm a minute late. I'm, uh, I hope, I didn't-

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Dad, S- you keep saying that. Stop.

   4. TATeddy Atlas0:13

      ... m- make you guys, uh-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      D- listen, that's-

   6. TATeddy Atlas0:15

      ... get anyone out there mad at you, so.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      No one's mad at anything. There's no real set time. You know, uh, I ca- I gotta tell you, since I announced that you're gonna be on the podcast, I had about 100 people tell me to get you mad. They want you to rant and get scr- (laughs)

   8. TATeddy Atlas0:28

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:28

      Ever since that, the, "We're firemen," speech you g- gave to Tim Bradley-

   10. TATeddy Atlas0:32

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       ... everybody wants you to start screaming and get mad. You get-

   12. TATeddy Atlas0:34

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       You get people hyped up. (laughs)

   14. TATeddy Atlas0:35

       Well, uh, well, hopefully if there's only an occasion for it, and I don't think there'll be an occasion.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       No.

   16. TATeddy Atlas0:41

       But, um, I, I'm looking at this stuff here. You got a nice place here, by the way.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       Thank you.

   18. TATeddy Atlas0:47

       And it's making me think about the Denzel Washington movie, uh, The Equalizer, the first one, where he was in with those Russian guys that were, like, messed up guys. And he was trying to protect that girl, and he, he started pointing. There were skulls and stuff at the guy's desk, you know.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       Yeah.

   20. TATeddy Atlas1:04

       And, uh, he was pointing to this stuff. He was trying to explain to the guy, "Listen, let this girl go." You know, "I'll give you $9,000." Whatever it was. "Let her go." She was, like, 15 years old. And, um, he, he didn't wanna listen to him, and so he started... The- they had stuff like this, with this skull. I don't know if the people could see it.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:24

       Right.

   22. TATeddy Atlas1:24

       But, um, and he started pointing it towards him. And, like, the guy didn't, like, take the hint, you know, the guy. And about a couple minutes later, he, he killed everybody in the room. But it- it's just, it looks exactly like the thing from that movie, the Denzel Washington, where he, uh, he also had guns and stuff he was pointing-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:43

       There it is right there. There's the scene.

   24. TATeddy Atlas1:45

       Yeah. This is-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:46

       Jamie pulled the scene up.

   26. TATeddy Atlas1:46

       Oh, really? He was f-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:47

       Yeah.

   28. TATeddy Atlas1:48

       Wow.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:48

       I never saw that movie.

   30. TATeddy Atlas1:49

       Yeah, so you see, like, w- there's a scene (laughs) where he starts pointing. They, they might've taken this from here. I mean, they could've gotten it from you to-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Football too, sure. …

   1. TATeddy Atlas15:00

      too. Football.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      Football too, sure.

   3. TATeddy Atlas15:01

      Yeah, that's a good point.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:01

      And MMA as well. Well, MMA has plenty of problems, you know? I mean, there's, there's less deaths in MMA, but we're getting deaths from weigh-ins. You know, we have, uh, a lot of extreme weight cutting issues in some of the smaller organizations in particular.

   5. TATeddy Atlas15:13

      All of that stuff is legitimate. It's a problem. Something that should be looked at.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:18

      It's just a shame that the judging is so poor and it's been this way for so long.

   7. TATeddy Atlas15:23

      Well, see the boxing ... I mean, you have a ... and I'm not saying this in a derogatory way. In some ways it's a good way. But you have a dictator running, you know, UFC.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:34

      (laughs) Yeah.

   9. TATeddy Atlas15:34

      And no, but, but i- it's okay to have a dictator sometimes. Uh, because at least you have rules that are adhered to.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       Right.

   11. TATeddy Atlas15:41

       At least you have structure.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:43

       Yeah.

   13. TATeddy Atlas15:44

       And, uh, you know, as long as they're not, you know, taking people out and kill- killing them.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:48

       I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying.

   15. TATeddy Atlas15:48

       And so boxing has, boxing has no s- real accountabil- no structure across the board. No, no real, you know, l- lateral structure and conformity. Nothing unilateral. Because you have different states that have different commissions and, you know, they're supposed to be tied together, but they all act differently. And there's no national commission. There's no body, there's no dictator, there's no czar, there's no i- i- there's no NBA commissioner. There's no NFL commissioner. There's no MLB commissioner.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       Right.

   17. TATeddy Atlas16:26

       That overlooks and polices the whole sport. And there's no separation of church and state, so to speak, where the people making the money in the sport are separated, truly separated from the people supposedly administrating the sp- There's no separation.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:44

       Right.

   19. TATeddy Atlas16:44

       They, I mean, promoters actually, uh, that are making the money and have obviously a horse, uh, that's running in the game, so to speak that night, uh, that they want that fighter to win, they pay the judges. And there's no, there's no ... Again, there's no buffer, there's no separation where you can have promoters and managers that can actually go to the commission and say, "We don't want these judges to judge." They can't say, "Put this judge in." But they can knock judges out and the commissions will listen to them. Uh, the alphabet organizations, they're corrupt. Um, they are. I mean, it's not Teddy Atlas saying it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:26

       It's everybody saying it. There's very few people that are gonna say they're not corrupt.

   21. TATeddy Atlas17:30

       Well, they're corrupt. I mean, if you're gonna be honest about it and you're not ... and you don't have an agenda where you're afraid to say it because you have an agenda, which a lot of people do in m- my business.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       Yeah.

   23. TATeddy Atlas17:37

       They have agendas, so they're not gonna say it. They ... Because they're part of it. If they're not part of it, uh, they're, they're friendly with people that are part of it. And, uh, they wanna have access. They wanna have relationships. So they stay away from it. And, and, uh, they understand how the corruption works. So they understand that, you know, is it, is it a smokey room with cigars like the old days when Frankie Carbo was running things and you put an envelope ... No, it's not that. But, i- you might be paying $30,000 for an ad.... and, and, and, and at a convention for the WBA or the WBC or the W... IBF or WBO or whatever the heck they are. And you might be paying $30,000 for an ad. What, w- w- what... You, you know why you paid the $30,000 for the ad. I don't think that you just like to see, um, your name in the ad, in the, in the brochure. There's, there was a purpose behind paying that ad. And, um, so there's no... Again, you have the administrators of the sport, the commissions, and then you have the alphabet organizations that get paid a sanctioning fee from the champion. So they want that champion to win. And so they get the sanctioning fee and especially if he's a popular champion. So they... So now you have nobody saying, "Well the manager can't talk to the sanction organization. Promoter can't..." Of course they can talk to them and say, "I want my guys rated high." Of, of course they have access so they have access to talking to somebody, influencing somebody to move their guy up in the ratings. These are honest ratings. And they have access to telling an organization, "Well, you know, I'd like to push a mandatory. I'd like to push my guy to get the mandatory." Which means, of course, that he's gotta fight him within a certain period of time, he's gotta fight the champion. But then he-

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:36

       That's missing in MMA.

   25. TATeddy Atlas19:37

       Yeah, it's-

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:38

       That's absolutely missing in MMA.

   27. TATeddy Atlas19:39

       So you have all that stuff going on and where, where... (sighs) Where is the... Where is the...

   28. JRJoe Rogan19:49

       Where's the oversight?

   29. TATeddy Atlas19:49

       Yeah, where's the oversight? Where's the policing? Where's the-

   30. JRJoe Rogan19:52

       Right.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   (laughs) …

   1. TATeddy Atlas30:00

      but there were Jewish families I've read, and I've heard from people, where say, "Hey, don't let nobody pick on you. Benny Leonard is the best fighter in the world. Jews are tough. We're, we're not just smart, we're tough."Benny Leonard shows that. So that kinda history, that kind of pulling of people up in many different ways, not just economically, uh, out of poverty, but, but emotionally, mentally, because you can be in poverty mentally, you can be in a low place mentally. It doesn't have to be, you know, financially all the time, you know, where you have holes in your shoes and you- and, and you're wearing shirts that don't fit. No, it can be the way you feel about yourself that is, is without... is, is without prosperity, with- with- without value. You have no value for yourself as a person, that's the worst poverty in the freaking world. There's nothing lower than that. And Joe Louis and Benny Leonard, they were fighters, they weren't baseball players. They pulled people out of those places. They let people know they had value, that their race had value, their people had value, they had value, and that should be known. And you can go anywhere and, and I'm glad you can because I love all sports. You can go anywhere and you can read about the greatness of the baseball players and the greatness of... Of course, NFL hasn't been around that long, but the greatness of those players and the greatness of the NBA players. But where did the kids ever get to read and to hear and to see about the greatness of these people, these fighters? V- Nowhere. V- Very little. Very little. It's not there. Why? Because again, I'm not gonna get into craziness, but, uh, the powers that be, the... Listen, it's not marketed properly. I get it. It doesn't have a commission so it doesn't take care of itself the way the UFC... The greatness about the... why the UFC grew so much is they marketed themselves in a tremendous way. So there's nobody... Boxing is just there, it takes care of itself, it exists 'cause it's man against man, so it's always gonna be there. But nobody's building it, nobody's marketing it, no one's feeding the monster to make it bigger. And it's a plant that's in the corner of, of, of your office that doesn't get sun, doesn't get watered-

   2. JRJoe Rogan32:36

      (laughs)

   3. TATeddy Atlas32:36

      ... and it... but it's still there.

   4. JRJoe Rogan32:37

      Right, right.

   5. TATeddy Atlas32:38

      It's still there.

   6. JRJoe Rogan32:39

      Yeah.

   7. TATeddy Atlas32:39

      And what I'm saying is that... Sorry, I, I didn't want to yell because now people are probably happy-

   8. JRJoe Rogan32:47

      I want you to. (laughs)

   9. TATeddy Atlas32:49

      ... but (laughs) but, but it, it should be fed a little bit. It should be watered a little bit-

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:56

       Well, you know what feeds it?

   11. TATeddy Atlas32:56

       ... because of what I just described.

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:58

       You know what feeds it? Guys like you.

   13. TATeddy Atlas33:00

       What is it?

   14. JRJoe Rogan33:00

       Well, guys like you, guys who have a, a deep appreciation for the history of the sport, gu- guys who have a deep appreciation of what it meant when Joe Louis beat Max Schmeling, guys, guys who understand what it meant when Sugar Ray Robinson was the best fighter in the world a- and everybody knew it, and he'd pull up in a fucking pink Cadillac with a beautiful suit on.

   15. TATeddy Atlas33:19

       And, and he, and he made-

   16. JRJoe Rogan33:20

       He elevated.

   17. TATeddy Atlas33:21

       He elevated people in Harlem-

   18. JRJoe Rogan33:23

       Yes.

   19. TATeddy Atlas33:23

       ... everywhere around the world, but Harlem, he had... he owned half of Harlem. He owned restaurants and-

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:28

       Yep.

   21. TATeddy Atlas33:28

       ... and, and, and stores and barber shops and, and everything. And, and you wanted to be there because that's where Sugar Ray Robinson-

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:35

       Yep.

   23. TATeddy Atlas33:35

       ... came from.

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:36

       Yep.

   25. TATeddy Atlas33:37

       It was great. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:39

       Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a rich part of history that really does get ignored.

   27. TATeddy Atlas33:42

       Let me tell you something about Schmeling you brought up... you know a lot about obviously this stuff, and that's what, what it's nice to talk about with you. Schmeling was a hell of a fighter. Joe Louis was the Brown Bomber, he was coming up, he was undefeated, and, um, Schmeling had the great quote before the fight, you know, it's kind of like the Babe Ruth thing that, that really happened where he pointed out and then he hit the ho-

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:08

       Right.

   29. TATeddy Atlas34:08

       You know, those, those are great stories-

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:09

       Right.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   There it is right…

   1. TATeddy Atlas45:00

      that we care about and that we sometimes look to- to be, and very rarely can we be that, uh, he was all that. He was all of that. And-

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:13

      There it is right there.

   3. TATeddy Atlas45:14

      ... I mean, how great is that? And he stalked the guy. He stalked the guy. And his punches were short and powerful. And he was the greatest finisher in the history of heavyweight boxing, because when he hurt you, you didn't survive. He got rid of you. He put punches together and they were short. And he was always in position. Look at his legs, he's always in position. You move forward, he takes a little step fall back to give himself room.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:43

      The shortness of those punches is absolutely beautiful. If you wanted to teach a young fighter how to punch correctly, Joe Louis is ... there's no better guy to watch than Joe Louis.

   5. TATeddy Atlas45:51

      No. You ... So, did you see, Joe, what he did a minute ago?

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:55

      A little sidestep?

   7. TATeddy Atlas45:55

      Uh, no. A minute ago, Schmeling tried to catch him with that same right hand he had knocked him out two years earlier. Go back. There, he just missed it. But he changed. He stepped out, he changed his distance this time.

   8. JRJoe Rogan46:08

      Mm-hmm.

   9. TATeddy Atlas46:08

      Because Jackie Blackburn, who's a great fighter, a Black fighter, he was a trainer, he was a great trainer. Nobody hears about Jackie Blackburn, what a great fighter he was and what a great f- trainer he was and how he wasn't allowed to fight white fighters, and he beat everybody.

   10. JRJoe Rogan46:24

       Woo! Left hook.

   11. TATeddy Atlas46:24

       Look at that, counter left hook. Instead of laying his head on the right like he did the first fight, he changed his range and he made that right hand miss. And look how calm he is. Look how calm he is. Look how focused he is.

   12. JRJoe Rogan46:39

       It's beautiful to watch.

   13. TATeddy Atlas46:40

       Really.

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:40

       The shortness of those punches-

   15. TATeddy Atlas46:41

       Look at that.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:42

       ... is phenomenal.

   17. TATeddy Atlas46:42

       And l- watch his legs, Joe. Watch- watch how he's always in position. Look at that!

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:46

       Oh!

   19. TATeddy Atlas46:46

       Look at that right hand!

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:47

       (laughs)

   21. TATeddy Atlas46:48

       But- but what did we miss? What didn't you see? Go back.

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:50

       The sidestep.

   23. TATeddy Atlas46:51

       No. The blinding jab that- that sets it up-

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:54

       Ah.

   25. TATeddy Atlas46:54

       ... where you don't see it. Watch. The jab is just a decoy!

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:57

       Yeah.

   27. TATeddy Atlas46:57

       Just so he can hit him with the right, so you don't see it.

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:59

       Just to cover it, right. What a beautiful sidestep too, right after he lands the right hand.

   29. TATeddy Atlas47:03

       Beautiful.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:03

       Look at that, right there.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. TATeddy Atlas1:00:00

      he came along. Um, he just signed a deal from what I read, um, I think I'm saying the numbers right, where Fox gave him $50 million for a four-year deal to put fights out there. And he's probably got the best stable of fighters. I mean, he's, he, he's got ... Well, the guy hasn't been fighting, but the guy was ... I think was one of the best guys, Thurman.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:21

      Mm-hmm.

   3. TATeddy Atlas1:00:21

      Um, but, you know, he's got ... Who I really love, this guy's a beast, my son loves him-... uh, Spence, Errol Spence.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:29

      Yes.

   5. TATeddy Atlas1:00:29

      He's a beast. I mean, the guy-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:31

      Yeah.

   7. TATeddy Atlas1:00:31

      I, I, I like him inside and out. What do I mean by that? I mean-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:33

      Yeah.

   9. TATeddy Atlas1:00:34

      ... he truly believes that he should fight all the best. He truly believes he's the best. He truly believes he's gonna get to you. Y- you know what I mean?

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

       Yes.

   11. TATeddy Atlas1:00:41

       And, and he fights that way.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:42

       And he's a great guy. Like, he lets no talk.

   13. TATeddy Atlas1:00:43

       And he's a good guy.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:44

       Yeah.

   15. TATeddy Atlas1:00:44

       He's a good guy. So it's, it's great.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:47

       He's articulate.

   17. TATeddy Atlas1:00:47

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:48

       Handsome.

   19. TATeddy Atlas1:00:48

       So it makes it better.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:00:49

       Yeah. He's fun, got a big smile.

   21. TATeddy Atlas1:00:50

       Yeah. Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:00:51

       Yeah.

   23. TATeddy Atlas1:00:51

       It, it's better, you know?

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

       Yeah. Terence Crawford is another one.

   25. TATeddy Atlas1:00:54

       Yeah. Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:00:54

       I'm a, I'm a giant fan of Terence Crawford.

   27. TATeddy Atlas1:00:56

       Yeah. Crawford's hot. And so, uh, I mean, Havens got a lot of... He's also got Wilder, the Heavyweight Champ.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

       Right.

   29. TATeddy Atlas1:01:01

       But one of the champs, whatever that is. But Wilder, uh, technically he's got a lot of problems, but he's got one thing that's not a problem (laughs) and I always-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:11

       Confidence.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:20:37

   (laughs) …

   1. TATeddy Atlas1:15:00

      of the people didn't speak English, so, you know, we, we figure it out. We get there. So I'd be the... So I'd... P-... You make a column. The name of the fighter, the weight. Yeah. So you, you weigh 'em, you know, that's one thing. You see it. Okay. That's the only truth. The rest of it got dicey. "Okay. How many fights?" Most important thing. Most important thing. How many fights? Zero. Everyone in this place got zero fights? (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:27

      (laughs)

   3. TATeddy Atlas1:15:29

      Nelson, nobody got fights in this place? You've been doing this for years. Y-... So, okay, here's the code. Zero fights means two or three. Won two or three fights meant six to 10.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:44

      (laughs)

   5. TATeddy Atlas1:15:46

      God forbid anyone ever said they had five, six fights. Anywhere from 25 to 100. (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:58

      (laughs)

   7. TATeddy Atlas1:15:59

      (laughs) Real. Real. This is the world that I lived in for five, six years. Took them every Friday, every... Drove down to the Bronx and got them a smoker every week. And so you figured out the code after a while. But you're responsible for these kids, so you wanted every tangible thing you could have. So again, if I wasn't sure how much (laughs) the guy was lying, that he was lying a little extra, I, I would... I'd go to Nelson. "You know this guy?" "No, but talk to Pablo. Talk to Angel." "All right. You know the guy?" "No. Yeah, he's... Stay away from." "No fight." You know, because I'm not taking a chance. But then when you get to the point where you don't really know, then I would... Just your instincts come alive. You're protecting your kid. It's your kid. It's your kid as much as it's paternally your kid. It's your kid. I, I remember one time I went up to the guy. I, I couldn't get enough info. I went up to the guy, brought Nelson as an interpreter because he didn't speak English and I said, "Listen, I know what we do here. All I'm telling you is I'm not putting my kid in with... to get beat up. If it's fair, it's fair, but I'm not putting him in with a kid that's got 30, 40 fights. My kid legitimate, legitimately has two fights. I'm telling you. I know we don't do that here, but, uh, I'm telling you, that's what he's got. If your kid's got 40 f-... tell me. Just tell me and say, 'No fight.' And th-... and I'll shake your hand and that's it. We're good." So he kept... He stood to his story. So we get close and I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, and I'm watching the guy warm up. Cus always told me, "Watch the guy warm up. Watch him warm up." I'm watching him warm up. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. Bah, bah. Hey, bah, bah. Hey, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. I said, "This guy (laughs) didn't have two fights." I mean, I- I'm a pretty good trainer and even without fights, I think I teach them technically what they need to know before they get to experi... But this guy was beyond that. (laughs) I mean, you know, this was Sugar Ray Robinson.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:18:20

      (laughs)

   9. TATeddy Atlas1:18:21

      So I go back to Nelson. I said, "Bring him over here again," 10 minutes before the fight. I said, "Bring him over here again." Comes over. "Oh." You know, a little bit of an attitude. It's all right. Everyone's got attitudes in this business. I said, "Hey, um, listen, one more time."... I just wanna tell you. Not threatening you, but I have to tell you this. You told me he's got no fights, whatever, two fight, whatever. When the bell rings, if you got off on me, I was wrong, you were right, soon as the bell rings, I'm gonna see it. I'm gonna know it. There's nothing you can say afterwards to say, to explain it. I'll know it. And I'll stop the fight if I have to, because I'll protect my kid. And right after I do that, I'll be coming over to you. That's all I'm gonna say. So please, please, for you, for me, please, if it's, if it's, if it's what I'm saying, please, just, just tell Nelson. You don't have to tell me. Just tell Nelson when I leave here that we're not gonna fight. Nelson came back to me four minutes, three minutes, two minutes later and said, "He said no fight." Thank you. Tell him thank you. Tell him thank you. That's the world we lived in there, but we got it done. We got it done though, Joe. We did. We really did. And-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:20:02

       Well, thank God that someone like you was able to understand that there is a big difference.

   11. TATeddy Atlas1:20:07

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:20:07

       And that you can, y- you know, these guys that sandbag like that-

   13. TATeddy Atlas1:20:10

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:20:11

       ... it's, it's very-

   15. TATeddy Atlas1:20:11

       But-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:20:11

       ... very common.

   17. TATeddy Atlas1:20:12

       And, and, yeah. And see, they think they're, they're gaining something because-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:20:16

       Yeah.

   19. TATeddy Atlas1:20:16

       ... you know what I mean? It's in their world.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:20:17

       Well, they just wanna fuck somebody up.

   21. TATeddy Atlas1:20:18

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:20:19

       Yeah.

   23. TATeddy Atlas1:20:20

       And so, but let me tell you something. My kids, I mean, like, when, when we first started fighting there, they had bongo drums this high. (laughs) I, uh, I mean, my kids had never seen bongo ... I didn't see bongo drums that ... What am I saying?

Episode duration: 3:10:41