EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,089 words- 0:02 – 2:48
Skulls on the desk: Equalizer story and settling in
- JRJoe Rogan
Four, three, two, one. And we're live. Teddy Atlas, thanks for being here, man. I really appreciate it.
- TATeddy Atlas
Sorry, I'm a minute late. I'm, uh, I hope, I didn't-
- JRJoe Rogan
Dad, S- you keep saying that. Stop.
- TATeddy Atlas
... m- make you guys, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
D- listen, that's-
- TATeddy Atlas
... get anyone out there mad at you, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
No one's mad at anything. There's no real set time. You know, uh, I ca- I gotta tell you, since I announced that you're gonna be on the podcast, I had about 100 people tell me to get you mad. They want you to rant and get scr- (laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Ever since that, the, "We're firemen," speech you g- gave to Tim Bradley-
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... everybody wants you to start screaming and get mad. You get-
- TATeddy Atlas
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You get people hyped up. (laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
Well, uh, well, hopefully if there's only an occasion for it, and I don't think there'll be an occasion.
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- TATeddy Atlas
But, um, I, I'm looking at this stuff here. You got a nice place here, by the way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Thank you.
- TATeddy Atlas
And it's making me think about the Denzel Washington movie, uh, The Equalizer, the first one, where he was in with those Russian guys that were, like, messed up guys. And he was trying to protect that girl, and he, he started pointing. There were skulls and stuff at the guy's desk, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
And, uh, he was pointing to this stuff. He was trying to explain to the guy, "Listen, let this girl go." You know, "I'll give you $9,000." Whatever it was. "Let her go." She was, like, 15 years old. And, um, he, he didn't wanna listen to him, and so he started... The- they had stuff like this, with this skull. I don't know if the people could see it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
But, um, and he started pointing it towards him. And, like, the guy didn't, like, take the hint, you know, the guy. And about a couple minutes later, he, he killed everybody in the room. But it- it's just, it looks exactly like the thing from that movie, the Denzel Washington, where he, uh, he also had guns and stuff he was pointing-
- JRJoe Rogan
There it is right there. There's the scene.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah. This is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Jamie pulled the scene up.
- TATeddy Atlas
Oh, really? He was f-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
I never saw that movie.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah, so you see, like, w- there's a scene (laughs) where he starts pointing. They, they might've taken this from here. I mean, they could've gotten it from you to-
- 2:48 – 4:33
Canelo vs. Golovkin II: how hype and era shape “great fights”
- JRJoe Rogan
So listen, man. You were, you just came back from the Canelo-Triple G fight, which was a phenomenal fight. That was a phenomenal fight.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I really enjoyed that fight a lot.
- TATeddy Atlas
I think people exaggerate how good fights are nowadays. Like, if they're around everything's great.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
I think everything is... If a pitcher has one good year in baseball, he's great. He's, he's like the next Sandy Koufax. Like, people don't wait to see and, and truly grade it, uh, against things that were out of their era.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- TATeddy Atlas
Because, you know, we're human. Like, "Hey, I was there. I reported on it. It's the greatest fight ever." And-
- JRJoe Rogan
You really think so?
- TATeddy Atlas
No, no, but that's what people-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, what people do when they're there.
- TATeddy Atlas
That's what they do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right, right.
- TATeddy Atlas
I think it was a really good fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
But everything's relative, you know? And it, it depends on... Everything is influenced. The judgment of people is influenced, at least I see it, in my view, for whatever that's worth, by what's around and how hungry they are. Like, everybody bought the Pacquiao-Mayweather first fight because the fans were hungry. Their imagination was like, "There's no good fights."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
"This is gonna be a good fight." So, they're, they were anticipating it, so you got them at the right time. If it was the '80s and you had Lennon, Duran, Pernell Whitaker-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hagler.
- TATeddy Atlas
... Hagler, uh, you know, you, you had, um, Hearns, I mean, you had all these great fight... Aaron Pryor.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TATeddy Atlas
You had all these guys fighting each other. You probably couldn't have pulled off (laughs) the, the Mayweather, uh, Pacquiao thing that you pulled off and it, it turned out to be a, you know, a, a bit of a, I don't wanna say scam, but, uh, it, it definitely wasn't what it lived up to be. And he-
- 4:33 – 9:40
Pacquiao–Mayweather: injury excuses, mindset, and the ‘money grab’ critique
- JRJoe Rogan
Wasn't that because Pacquiao came into the fight injured?
- TATeddy Atlas
I, I don't believe it. I never saw any... Listen, I'm not saying he didn't have an injury, but you, you're in a tough business. You, you were in Taekwondo and all that kind of fighting stuff and MMA and what- whatever part of it. I'm probably not giving it the proper, um, understanding of what it was and, and exactly what part of the fighting. Not just MMA, I'm being too broad, but I know you did Taekwondo, you did kickboxing. I know that you're, you were national champion when you were young. Somebody showed me something about it. So, um, y- you, you do things when you're injured. I mean, like, when are you not injured?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
If you're, if you're a football player, if you're a fighter, if you're in the contact business, tell me when you're not injured, like, when there's not something wrong. So, I never saw proof during that bout. I was there covering it for ESPN. I never saw proof where he winced or, or he didn't throw that hand or, or he threw it in a, in a poor way or in a, in a less than high level way. I, I never saw that. So listen, I'm not in his body, uh, you know, and, and, um, I'm not a mind reader, but I- I didn't see it. But what I did see, I saw him and his trainer in the runway, was more telling to me, taking selfies because they had got paid a f- a few extra dollars to promote some kind of product...... where the selfies were attached to it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TATeddy Atlas
So, I saw that. To me, that was more debilitating to see a guy before the biggest fight of his life, where people were going crazy and, and gonna break the pay-per-view record and paying a hundred dollars for the fricking thing, to see him taking a selfie when the mentality should be in a different place-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
... and normally is in a different place, before you're about to walk that 100 yards to the ring where you might not come out of there-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
... uh, it's always possible, you have to have that mentality. I thought that was more debilitating than anything I saw physically with what was supposed to be an arm injury. So, uh, to me... Look, to me, maybe it's- it's... I don't know if it's fair to say it was a money grab, but obviously it, it was a bit of a money grab. Uh, they were beyond themselves. Uh, you know, one guy was retired, he came back for it. They were beyond the peak of their abilities in their career, and I just, I- I just didn't see, uh, I- I didn't see that fight, uh, the purpose to it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it happened about five, six years late.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
I- I just... Uh, I mean, what- what... I, uh, I- I- you... Everyone who gets in the ring, they deserve to make as much money as they can. I never, I never say that a fighter got overpaid. Never. I don't care. I never say that, because I understand what it took to get to that point. And ... But, you know, you can, you can play with things and, you know, you can, you can kinda lead people to things.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TATeddy Atlas
And again, where we started with this conversation, you know, it- it's the time you're around, uh, the- the environment, what's not around. Not just what's around, but what's not around.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
There's not that many great fights to be made right now-
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is what you're saying.
- TATeddy Atlas
So when-
- JRJoe Rogan
So the Triple G-Canelo fight is important, because there's not a lot of guys waiting in the wings.
- TATeddy Atlas
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It's not like the old days of the 1980s or the, the glory days of the welterweight and middleweight division.
- TATeddy Atlas
No, it's not.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
And, and the people, you know, they, they have a thirst, if you will, to see something that the PR department can bring it- can use the right material, because they- they- it has to be fighters that obviously are marquee fighters with a name, that they can build it and get the imagination of the people to say, "This is gonna be a great one." So, when they see it and they pay a hundred dollars or $85 or $95, whatever the heck they're paying, um, for the fight, and then it's a good fight, well, it becomes a great fight, because of all those elements.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TATeddy Atlas
Because, uh, you know, it- it's during your time, you saw it, you committed to it, you sacrificed to pay that money, you sacrificed to fly there. And yeah, uh- uh, a really good fight becomes, uh, iconic.
- 9:40 – 14:17
Scoring Canelo–GGG: jabs, body shots, and what judges reward
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you think the deci- I, I, I thought the first decision was terrible. I thought Triple G clearly won the fight. I thought the second decision was arguable. I saw it. Like, this is- this looks like a draw to me. It was an amazing fight.
- TATeddy Atlas
I mean, I gotta be honest, because I mean, that's where you're supposed to be and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Who do you think won?
- TATeddy Atlas
I had a 117-112, and a l- lot of people are gonna say-
- JRJoe Rogan
For?
- TATeddy Atlas
... he had it too far.
- JRJoe Rogan
For Triple G?
- TATeddy Atlas
I had him for Golovkin.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really? Interesting.
- TATeddy Atlas
And all week long, I picked Canelo to win on ESPN-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TATeddy Atlas
... on SportsCenter, I was working. So I, you know, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
117-112's big.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah, and it's five rounds, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
... I- I- yeah. So, I'm, uh, you know, you- you- you start to... You're human, you start to hear people like you, you know, that know something about fighting that had- had it closer, so you- maybe you don't want to yell that he had a 117-112. But yeah, you still gotta yell it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
Because that's what you believe, that's what you saw, and I still say it. I still yell it, that it was ... They didn't give him credit for jabs. Like, jabs don't count no more?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
Like, I'm not gonna pick out anybody, because that's not really fair to do when you have a podium and they don't have a podium, but, um, sometimes it is, because they deserve it. But-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
... not- not generally. And the judges nowadays, (sighs) I- I think that ... they just give it... I see too often that they almost go down the easy route. Like, you know, they just give it to who's aggressive. If a guy's walking forward, a guy's throwing punches, it's like they're favoring that guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TATeddy Atlas
And there's more to it than that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
And I understand that the sport doesn't help itself. They don't make a clear criterium for- but it's supposed to be clean, harder, effective punches. Because the separation of professional boxing and amateur boxing is you have to sell it, you have to make money.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
And you gotta put fannies in the seats, so you wanna see guys get hurt, you wanna see guys impact guys. So, it's the cleaner, who hurts the guy more. It's the cleaner, more impactful punches. But it's not just throwing, it's not just aggression, because the aggression has to lead to something effective. Effective aggression. So, I- I saw, for me, to get it to that 117-112, I saw...... Golovkin on the outside controlling range, controlling distance. You wanna use that silly word ring generalship? 'Cause I, I half the time, I don't know what they're talking about.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TATeddy Atlas
They say, "ring general-" We're like-
- 14:17 – 15:23
Judging in boxing and MMA: competence, accountability, and stakes
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's a b- even bigger mess in MMA, and it's a lot of the same judges. Uh, I mean, I think the problem with judging is, uh, the same in both sports. You should have someone who has experience in the sport. I mean, they, they have to have a deep understanding of what they're actually watching, and that's not the case. I know it's not the case in boxing, 'cause I know a lot of the same judges from boxing also judge MMA. They don't know what they're talking about in MMA, and I don't think they know what they're talking about in boxing either. And that's a real travesty. It's a huge disservice to these professional athletes who literally are, as you said, risking everything as they step in there. There's a real good chance that they might not come out.
- TATeddy Atlas
(sniffs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, it happens every so many fights-
- TATeddy Atlas
(sniffs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... a guy dies. This is just a fact in boxing. And the fact-
- TATeddy Atlas
Football too. Football.
- JRJoe Rogan
Football too, sure.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah, that's a good point.
- JRJoe Rogan
And MMA as well. Well, MMA has plenty of problems, you know? I mean, there's, there's less deaths in MMA, but we're getting deaths from weigh-ins. You know, we have, uh, a lot of extreme weight cutting issues in some of the smaller organizations in particular.
- TATeddy Atlas
All of that stuff is legitimate. It's a problem. Something that should be looked at.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's just a shame that the judging is so poor and it's been this way for so long.
- 15:23 – 25:18
Why boxing stays broken: no commissioner, blurred incentives, and ‘hosted dinners’
- TATeddy Atlas
Well, see the boxing ... I mean, you have a ... and I'm not saying this in a derogatory way. In some ways it's a good way. But you have a dictator running, you know, UFC.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
And no, but, but i- it's okay to have a dictator sometimes. Uh, because at least you have rules that are adhered to.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
At least you have structure.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
And, uh, you know, as long as they're not, you know, taking people out and kill- killing them.
- JRJoe Rogan
I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying.
- TATeddy Atlas
And so boxing has, boxing has no s- real accountabil- no structure across the board. No, no real, you know, l- lateral structure and conformity. Nothing unilateral. Because you have different states that have different commissions and, you know, they're supposed to be tied together, but they all act differently. And there's no national commission. There's no body, there's no dictator, there's no czar, there's no i- i- there's no NBA commissioner. There's no NFL commissioner. There's no MLB commissioner.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
That overlooks and polices the whole sport. And there's no separation of church and state, so to speak, where the people making the money in the sport are separated, truly separated from the people supposedly administrating the sp- There's no separation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
They, I mean, promoters actually, uh, that are making the money and have obviously a horse, uh, that's running in the game, so to speak that night, uh, that they want that fighter to win, they pay the judges. And there's no, there's no ... Again, there's no buffer, there's no separation where you can have promoters and managers that can actually go to the commission and say, "We don't want these judges to judge." They can't say, "Put this judge in." But they can knock judges out and the commissions will listen to them. Uh, the alphabet organizations, they're corrupt. Um, they are. I mean, it's not Teddy Atlas saying it.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's everybody saying it. There's very few people that are gonna say they're not corrupt.
- TATeddy Atlas
Well, they're corrupt. I mean, if you're gonna be honest about it and you're not ... and you don't have an agenda where you're afraid to say it because you have an agenda, which a lot of people do in m- my business.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
They have agendas, so they're not gonna say it. They ... Because they're part of it. If they're not part of it, uh, they're, they're friendly with people that are part of it. And, uh, they wanna have access. They wanna have relationships. So they stay away from it. And, and, uh, they understand how the corruption works. So they understand that, you know, is it, is it a smokey room with cigars like the old days when Frankie Carbo was running things and you put an envelope ... No, it's not that. But, i- you might be paying $30,000 for an ad.... and, and, and, and at a convention for the WBA or the WBC or the W... IBF or WBO or whatever the heck they are. And you might be paying $30,000 for an ad. What, w- w- what... You, you know why you paid the $30,000 for the ad. I don't think that you just like to see, um, your name in the ad, in the, in the brochure. There's, there was a purpose behind paying that ad. And, um, so there's no... Again, you have the administrators of the sport, the commissions, and then you have the alphabet organizations that get paid a sanctioning fee from the champion. So they want that champion to win. And so they get the sanctioning fee and especially if he's a popular champion. So they... So now you have nobody saying, "Well the manager can't talk to the sanction organization. Promoter can't..." Of course they can talk to them and say, "I want my guys rated high." Of, of course they have access so they have access to talking to somebody, influencing somebody to move their guy up in the ratings. These are honest ratings. And they have access to telling an organization, "Well, you know, I'd like to push a mandatory. I'd like to push my guy to get the mandatory." Which means, of course, that he's gotta fight him within a certain period of time, he's gotta fight the champion. But then he-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's missing in MMA.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah, it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's absolutely missing in MMA.
- TATeddy Atlas
So you have all that stuff going on and where, where... (sighs) Where is the... Where is the...
- JRJoe Rogan
Where's the oversight?
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah, where's the oversight? Where's the policing? Where's the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
Where's the line where the... Because again, people making money, people running the sport, people making money, people administrating the sport. It's not supposed to blur. It, it, it's supposed to be a separation. Now, if you know where to go in Europe or America, United States too, but all through Europe where there's a lot of big fights... There was just a big fight with Joshua, uh, in London. They drew 90,000 people, which is good for the sport and it's, it's, it's incredible. Um, but if you know what restaurant to go to the night before a big fight, you will walk in the restaurant... I've been there. You will walk in the restaurant... I'm not gonna say something if I can't stand behind it, and you will see at the restaurant, it's a big table, kind of (laughs) like, the, you know, not the Last Supper, but it's, it's a big table. And you will see all the officials at that table that are gonna work the fight the next night, and you will see the organizational heads. The heads of that sanctioning body and, and the guys there in charge, the presidents, vice-presidents, um, supervisors, uh, judges, referees. And guess who the host of the dinner is? The promoter. There's something wrong with that. I mean, there's something greatly wrong with that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
So the host of the dinner... And it's a big bill obviously, I mean, it's a lot of people, it's a good restaurant, they're eating all the best stuff, drinking the best wines and everything else so it's a big bill. And it's being picked up by the promoter who wants a specific fighter to win that night.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
And he's got all... He's got access (sniffs) to all the judges, all the officials, all the organizational heads. Now so, I would say to the people that are listening out there, that just to make the analogy that really, I think would hit home. The New York Yankees, they're obviously a universally known, uh, name and, and brand, the, the organization. Maybe the biggest of all time. So how about in New York you go to the best restaurant on the night before a World Series game, you walked into the restaurant and you saw all the umpiring crew, all the officials that are in charge of the umpiring for the World Series game sitting at a dinner hosted by the Steinbrenners.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- 25:18 – 33:42
Boxing’s forgotten social history: Joe Louis, Benny Leonard, and pride beyond sport
- TATeddy Atlas
And there's a history to boxing, though, that unfortunately ... You know, because I care about this sport, it's been my whole life. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
That it's kinda corrupt.
- TATeddy Atlas
It's ... Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That it's got a reputation-
- TATeddy Atlas
It's ... Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... as being corrupt.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah. And, and unfortunately, fortunately and unfortunately, like, there's, there's a part, a good part, where the history goes back longer, farther than any other sport. Any other sport. I mean, it was the first sport in the Olympics. It goes back further than ... And it was the biggest sport in, in this country, bigger than baseball, at one time. It was that big. I mean, you know, so ... And now it's, it's not. And it, it, it's too bad because ... And it's too bad that the kids, that the younger people, they don't have the ability to learn about those fighters, those special fighters. They were special. They really were. And they were special for different reasons.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TATeddy Atlas
Like, like Jackie Robinson was special. We know. We don't have to go into why he was special. But nobody knows that Joe Louis, who was quiet and everything, but when he was in the army and there was, you know, segregation and all that crap going on, he, he quietly used his position as heavyweight champ of the world to make sure that when he went to movies and they put him in the front row, and he saw that Blacks wasn't allowed to come in, he said, "I'm not going in there unless Blacks can come in there." When he went to other sort of events where the same kinda junk was going on, he very quietly, but powerfully, integrated things and, and said, "No, I'm gonna make a change here. You, you, you're not gonna have me and not have people that look like me, you know, kept out." So he ... And there were people ... I've read about it, because I like reading about those things, about history, um, to see how we could be better and, and, um, where we've come from. And, uh, there were history of Black families, you know, poor Black families that would, would get hope from just saying, "Hey, Louis did it." They would tell their kids, "Hey-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
... "Joe ... L- listen, I don't wanna hear this. I don't wanna hear that you can't do this. Joe Louis did it." And so he was that important. That's all ... That's the only point I'm making here. He was that freaking important that that history, and the history of other fighters like him ... doesn't have to be Black fighters, but that what they f- what they did, what they overcame, where they came from. Benny Leonard, um, one of the greatest Jewish fighters of all time. There was a time when, uh ... And, and it's still around, unfortunately. There's a lot of antisemitism. But there was a time where, uh, you know, it was tough being a Jew. And, and you're, you're growing up and y- you get called a kike. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. I think it was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
... right? And you get called all those kinda ... I don't even know what the hell it means. I just know it's a bad name to call a Jew. And, and you had all that stuff going on.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
And Jewish women thought of being ... They were thought of moving towards banking and they, they're moving towards things where they're making money and they were ... Later on they started doing that. But they were in the ghettos and they were trying to pull themselves out. And so at that era, during that time, the '20s to '30s, the Jews were some of the best fighters, because that was their way of getting out. But there was also ... There was another significance to being a Jewish fighter, that a lot of the kids, they weren't thought of as being tough, so they got picked on and, and thought of that they're gonna go more towards academic and other stuff. So, there was a weakness perceived. Not true. None of this stuff is usually-
- JRJoe Rogan
Just perceived-
- TATeddy Atlas
But it was-
- JRJoe Rogan
... because they were smart.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
So now all of a sudden, Benny Leonard comes along when the sport's the biggest sport in the country, and he's the best freaking fighter in the game. And he combed his hair before he got in the ring, and he would come out without it being messed. And this was ... This guy was ... I mean, he was, he was Michael Jordan. I mean, before that stuff, before Michael Jordan, before Air Jordan, before anything. I mean, this guy was not only tough, he was not only a champion, which obviously connected to being tough by itself, but he was, he was smart. He was, he was cool. He had pizazz. He was a man. And there were Jewish families ... You don't hear about these stories, but there were Jewish families I've read, and I've heard from people, where say, "Hey, don't let nobody pick on you. Benny Leonard is the best fighter in the world. Jews are tough. We're, we're not just smart, we're tough."Benny Leonard shows that. So that kinda history, that kind of pulling of people up in many different ways, not just economically, uh, out of poverty, but, but emotionally, mentally, because you can be in poverty mentally, you can be in a low place mentally. It doesn't have to be, you know, financially all the time, you know, where you have holes in your shoes and you- and, and you're wearing shirts that don't fit. No, it can be the way you feel about yourself that is, is without... is, is without prosperity, with- with- without value. You have no value for yourself as a person, that's the worst poverty in the freaking world. There's nothing lower than that. And Joe Louis and Benny Leonard, they were fighters, they weren't baseball players. They pulled people out of those places. They let people know they had value, that their race had value, their people had value, they had value, and that should be known. And you can go anywhere and, and I'm glad you can because I love all sports. You can go anywhere and you can read about the greatness of the baseball players and the greatness of... Of course, NFL hasn't been around that long, but the greatness of those players and the greatness of the NBA players. But where did the kids ever get to read and to hear and to see about the greatness of these people, these fighters? V- Nowhere. V- Very little. Very little. It's not there. Why? Because again, I'm not gonna get into craziness, but, uh, the powers that be, the... Listen, it's not marketed properly. I get it. It doesn't have a commission so it doesn't take care of itself the way the UFC... The greatness about the... why the UFC grew so much is they marketed themselves in a tremendous way. So there's nobody... Boxing is just there, it takes care of itself, it exists 'cause it's man against man, so it's always gonna be there. But nobody's building it, nobody's marketing it, no one's feeding the monster to make it bigger. And it's a plant that's in the corner of, of, of your office that doesn't get sun, doesn't get watered-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
... and it... but it's still there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right.
- TATeddy Atlas
It's still there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
And what I'm saying is that... Sorry, I, I didn't want to yell because now people are probably happy-
- JRJoe Rogan
I want you to. (laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
... but (laughs) but, but it, it should be fed a little bit. It should be watered a little bit-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you know what feeds it?
- 33:42 – 47:52
Louis vs. Schmeling: the greatest ‘life moment’ and a technical masterclass
- TATeddy Atlas
Let me tell you something about Schmeling you brought up... you know a lot about obviously this stuff, and that's what, what it's nice to talk about with you. Schmeling was a hell of a fighter. Joe Louis was the Brown Bomber, he was coming up, he was undefeated, and, um, Schmeling had the great quote before the fight, you know, it's kind of like the Babe Ruth thing that, that really happened where he pointed out and then he hit the ho-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
You know, those, those are great stories-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
... but, but where... what- what's the real truth behind them, you know? We don't know. We don't care. We don't care at a certain point, you know why? Because they let us feel good, they let us dream about possibilities, and we should all have possibilities to dream about, and they make somebody feel good because, you know, the Babe Ruth one was connected to a sick kid, so it, it, it's a nice thing. I- it's where sports can be better than just sports, than just somebody participating in it. It, it can go beyond that. It can be stronger than that. And that's some of the good stuff about it. And so Schmeling, the great story, he didn't point to, you know, the, to the fence, but he said before the fight, "I see something." You know, with the... That's my, my acc... my trying to be an accent for the German, you know, but I, I sound more like Schultz from Hogan's Heroes.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
(laughs) I don't know why. Every time you try to do something like with certain-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
... you know, ethnic, you know, pronunciations, um, you, you sound like you, you go to one of those sitcoms-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
... you go to one of those places, you know? And when I say... somebody... I think my kid, I think my son said, uh, uh, you know, he had watched one of 'em, uh, and I think he said, "You, you, you sound like Sergeant Schultz," (laughs) like from Hogan's, uh, Heroes. But... And he said, "I see something." And what he saw was that Louis would jab and he would leave... You should never leave your head on the l- on the right side because if you leave your head, you know, you move your head to the right side, you're in a path to the right hand. You should actually finish on the left side because then you're outside the right hand. You follow?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TATeddy Atlas
There's the right hand. Over here it can hit you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
Over here you're outside it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
So he had a habit of... and he had a great trainer. He had a habit though, at that point, of leaving his head over on the right. So Schmeling saw something, as he said, that he could hit him with a right hand. He could time it over the jab. Now, Schmeling was of the ilk, of the level, of the caliber-It wasn't just about talent. He could punch. He was a good fighter. But he was a pro. What do I mean by that? A lot of guys were f- would hesitate a little bit. Same opening, they might see it, but it was the Brown Bomber who was knocking everyone out. So they hesitate. They were l- they were afraid. Normal. A lot of people are afraid of that word. I mean, it, it's there. I mean, without it, we're not alive. So he, uh, they, they might see the same thing, but they weren't at a pro level. A pro level is a guy that can do what he has to do and no emotions interfere with doing it. I mean, that's my simplest way of ... Websters might not say that, but that's what I would say. So they might have seen the opening, but they would hesitate just enough and it'd be gone. The door close 'cause it's, it's, it's like f- life. It's moments. (snaps fingers) Capture a moment, lose the moment. And, but this guy was a pro. He, he didn't let that come in there and make him hesitate, that, that fear. He controlled it. And if the opening was there, bang! He was gonna throw the punch. So he did, and he dropped Louis a few times and, you know, he, he won that fight. And ... (yawns) This was-
- JRJoe Rogan
What round did he stop him in? The first fight.
- TATeddy Atlas
I can't remember. Maybe, maybe the ninth. But it was late in the fight, but he had hurt him and l- l-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
... you know, Louis was taking a, (clicks tongue) a beating. So Louis l- went on ... He won the world title, and, um, he beat Braddock for the title. Cinderella Man, great movie-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- TATeddy Atlas
... it was made about. You know, he came from welfare to be in the world champion. That's the Braddock story, without getting into it too much. So he, he, Louis beats Braddock and had to give a percentage, you know. Uh, uh, Don King and Arum might not have been around then, but, but the people that taught him what to do were around. Taught him, uh, how to take advantage of fighters. Taught him how, what options were before options were ever known. (laughs) You know, uh, the ... Braddock, I think, I forget his name, but Braddock's manager basically made Louis and his people agree to give him a percentage of his purses for the rest of his career to get the fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
What?
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah. So, uh, I mean, you could obviously research it and look into it.
- JRJoe Rogan
How much percentage?
- TATeddy Atlas
Oh, I don't know. Uh, uh, listen. I could say 10%, but I don't wanna say definitively because-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Right.
- 47:52 – 59:24
Judges and the ‘back of the line’: why robbery is worse in fighting than other sports
- TATeddy Atlas
You know what I like about boxing? I like a- a lot of things I don't like. I don't like the administrators. I hate them. I know that's a powerful word, but ... You know, not every single one of them, but I'm just saying, I- I- I hate their weakness. I hate their cowardice. I do. I do, because they sit outside the ring. A lot of them... You brought up a point, they should've had the experience one way or the other and they've never, ever had anybody punch them. And I'm not saying you sh- ... to be a man, you gotta get punched. I'm not saying any of that stuff. It's ... Being a man is a lot more than that, a lot more. You know, plenty of people get punched and they're not men. But what I'm saying is that ...You should understand what it feels to a person to put themselves on the line and to risk so much and to risk everything (sniffs) to try to get their family in a better place. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
I think there's also, they should be a fan. I don't- I don't think some of them are even fans.
- TATeddy Atlas
No, they're not. And some of them might not even like it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
They wouldn't tell you that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. But they just do it-
- TATeddy Atlas
(sighs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... for a job.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
And- and what I'm saying is that when you c- when I see these people that haven't put them- been in that place... And not everyone can be in that place, so again, I gotta be careful with that if I'm gonna be fair. (sniffs) But for them so easily to take something away from somebody... See, what's different for me, why I get passionate, if you want to use that word, people say, "Teddy, you get g- a little crazy." I- i- if it happens in baseball and a guy beats out the throw... Now you have cameras, so you didn't use to have that. But if a guy... You didn't have replay. Back in the day, a guy... It happened a lot of times. Guy was safe and they call him out. You know what? Too bad. It's a- it's a shame. But you know what? The next day he's going to play the game again, and he's going to be able to make amends for that. He and his family, and he's got guaranteed contracts, and you know what? It's going to be okay. I mean, uh, was it right? Wrong is never right. No. But you know what? In the mix of things, we can overcome that. But now you take a fighter, same thing, and the judge- judges make a mistake, maybe on purpose, whatever, but they make a bad mistake. The fighter can't go back the next day and rectify that. The fighter doesn't have a guaranteed contract. He only has what he can make if he gets to that fight. That's it for that night. Guess where that fighter goes? He don't go back to the dugout and then come out the next day, uh, and play again with a new uniform on. No, he goes to the back of the line in boxing and has to take hundreds, maybe thousands of punches to get back to that place he was to earn the right to get closer to the exit in the business because everyone's trying to get to the exit. They're trying to gain what they can gain with their legacy, with- for their families, for themselves in many ways, financially, you know, and- and... But also in what's inside them, that they- that they have to prove something, that they have to make it for all different personal reasons, and they're close to doing that. And now they're forced because of some crook... Maybe it's incompetence. It's either corruption or incompetence, okay? But sometimes it's corruption, and they have to go all the way to the back of the line now. They're not playing a football game the next Sunday. They're not playing an NBA game two days later, and they gotta take all those punches and hope, hope they get back to that place. And you know what? I seen it. I did 22 years of ESPN boxing. I've been with ESPN about 22 years, but I did like 18 years, whatever it was, of Friday Night Fights. We did p- a lot of title fights. Not the big names, not the Canelos, not- not the Golovkins, not the Mayweathers, but guys that have meant just as much to them, even more because they didn't have millions of dollars, and they got their shot. And I watched them get robbed, and I saw that they never got back there. That night was the right night for them. That particular night, everything worked. Everything was perfect. All that training, everything came together, and they were beautiful, they were magnificent, and they were freaking robbed. And it's wrong. It's really wrong. And that's what they do when they do that. But the glorious thing if- if that's not too s- made up of a word, it sounds like glory of the... But the beautiful thing about boxing is that with everything wrong in the world... And I hate to use this cliché, this terminology, but, you know, with life being unfair, because I don't like to use that because- because sometimes people nowadays, for me, uh, they- there's too many excuses out there. There really are. There's too many damn excuses. You're in this country, you got a chance to do something, where you don't have in other places. But having said that, it can feel like life's not fair sometimes, especially when you think about some of the things we just talked about in a day that's gone now. It's not there no more, but what, the day of Louis and those kind of people, life wasn't fair. That really- they really had a right to use that saying. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
Nowadays, I don't think people have a... White, Black, purple, uh, they don't have a right to say that, uh, to the extent that they did back then.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not to the extent.
- TATeddy Atlas
No, no, they don't. They really... Listen, are there things wrong and there are messed up-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- TATeddy Atlas
... people still out there? Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But sometimes it's too easy to use that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- TATeddy Atlas
It's just too easy.
- JRJoe Rogan
I agree.
- TATeddy Atlas
So- but there was a time when life too often was unfair.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ruthlessly unfair.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah, really unfair, r- ruthlessly, yeah, yeah, yeah. And when life was unfair, boxing was around to make it fair, and I'll tell you how. On one given night, if you worked hard enough, if you dreamed big enough, if you were tough enough and you made yourself tough enough, you sacrificed enough, y- y- you became polished and savvy enough and- and technically a-... equipped to do things that you had, and you learned those things, and you just worked yourself to the bone. No matter where you came from, no matter what part of the world, no matter w- who your parents were, no matter what your poverty l- level may have been, may not have been, m- no matter what you had, what you didn't have, no matter what people had told you, didn't tell you, all of that, if you've made yourself and took advantage of that opportunity and got yourself ready, and you were ready to behave like a champion, you could get in that ring on one given night and make the world fair, and have your hand lifted and be called champion of the world. That makes boxing special and that's what these judges don't get, that kids are waiting to hear that. And they give everything. You know, you hear too much the crap where, "I would die for that." There's people that would die for that. There were people in our times, in this world, in this country, and you used the right word, word, you know, tragically, whatever powerful word you had just used-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ruthlessly.
- TATeddy Atlas
... ruthlessly. Yeah, yeah. There were people because of that word, because of the reality of the actions attached to that world, word. If you told them, "Listen, you, you gotta s- you, you're gonna have to die, you know, after this. But you'll get to have this. Your hand will be lifted. You will be called champion of the world. All your people will see it, and the people you want to see it, and yourself. But you'll die afterwards." I would give you that people would sign on. That's how important that was. That's what that stood for. And then you get judges that have no conception of that. (laughs) I, I don't mean to laugh but, no, I, I'm not saying they have to have a complete conception of it, but no feeling of what we're talking about?
- JRJoe Rogan
I think they're like DMV workers. That's what I think. I think there's a bunch of them that are real good, but a lot of them are just like people that are just taking a government job. That's what I think. And I think it's a travesty that they're not removed. That's what I think. When- whenever I go to a UFC, and like I said, a lot of the same judges, and I, I see some of these, these scores, I want to take my fucking headset off and throw it into the cage and scream and flip over the table. And you just kind of take a deep breath and calm yourself down, 'cause y- there's nothing you can do, and these athletic commissions have kept, kept these people on for whatever reason, and you're watching a bad decision. You're watching someone who trained for eight, 10 weeks for this one particular fight, and years and years to get to that position, and they're getting fucked. And they're getting fucked because someone just sucks at their job, and they don't care. And this person, they, they, they're gonna be there two months from now at another fight, and there's nothing you can do about it. And I don't understand it, I don't understand how the commissions let this slide. I don't know how difficult it is to fire these people, or to prove they're incompetent, but I do know that especially with, with, well, I guess it's probably true with both boxing and MMA, there are countless fans out there that would do a far better job. Countless, countless people that have had experience in fighting, countless people that have a deep appreciation and understanding of what's actually going on inside the fight. And these people don't get those jobs, and instead these same fools continue to give piss-poor decisions or corrupt decisions. I mean, whoever that woman was, you know, those, well, I don't even want to mention people's names, but there's been some decisions, there's been some horrific decisions-
- TATeddy Atlas
The one that had it with the Mayweather, uh ... You talking about the Mayweather-Canelo, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- 59:24 – 1:04:01
Promoters and today’s talent: Golden Boy, PBC, Spence, Crawford, Wilder, Fury
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, out of all the promoters today, is Golden Boy the best? I mean, at least Oscar De La Hoya, Bernard Hopkins, they're l- legit world champion fighters.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah. I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
They, they have a ... Did, did they have-
- TATeddy Atlas
Look, they got ... But they're attached to ... They got one ... They got a strength and they got a weakness. Their weakness is they're attached, really attached at the hip to one ... You know, their solar system, so to speak, has one son, and that son is called Canelo.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
Canelo disappears tomorrow and-
- JRJoe Rogan
They're fucked.
- TATeddy Atlas
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
Th- e- e- if ... They're not happy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
They got some problems. But listen, Al Haymon's out there, you know, he, he's PBC-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
... you know, he came along. Um, he just signed a deal from what I read, um, I think I'm saying the numbers right, where Fox gave him $50 million for a four-year deal to put fights out there. And he's probably got the best stable of fighters. I mean, he's, he, he's got ... Well, the guy hasn't been fighting, but the guy was ... I think was one of the best guys, Thurman.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TATeddy Atlas
Um, but, you know, he's got ... Who I really love, this guy's a beast, my son loves him-... uh, Spence, Errol Spence.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- TATeddy Atlas
He's a beast. I mean, the guy-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
I, I, I like him inside and out. What do I mean by that? I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
... he truly believes that he should fight all the best. He truly believes he's the best. He truly believes he's gonna get to you. Y- you know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- TATeddy Atlas
And, and he fights that way.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he's a great guy. Like, he lets no talk.
- TATeddy Atlas
And he's a good guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
He's a good guy. So it's, it's great.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's articulate.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah.
- 1:04:01 – 1:24:00
South Bronx smokers, matchmaking ‘lies,’ and discovering young Mike Tyson
- TATeddy Atlas
But I'll tell you, uh, when I was training fighters when I was young and I was taking them to Smoker's in the Bronx to get experience, uh, every week, tough places there in the South Bronx, and we'd take them to these unsanctioned fights just to get them experience. And if I didn't know the fighter... See, I had... I'm responsible for these kids (sniffs) back then. I'm like their parent, and they're trusting me. Some of them didn't have parents, but the ones that did, they were trusting me to take care of this kid. They didn't know I was going to South Bronx where, where... I remember one time, uh, I borrowed a car from somebody. I didn't have the good enough car. It was the publisher of the newspaper, uh, the Catskill Daily Mail. And, and I've come... There was the name of the publisher. And I borrowed his station wagon. I didn't have a car big enough to take the kids. And, um, as I'm leaving he says, "It's... You're not taking them to a bad place where they like rob hubcaps or something?" And I was like, "No," because I didn't think I was lying, because to me they robbed the whole car.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
So, so I said, "No." Because he left it at hubcaps.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TATeddy Atlas
So I said no. So I get-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
So I get there and the first thing I do is I pull the, you know, underneath the El. You know, for people who don't know, it's the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Train.
- TATeddy Atlas
It's the subway, the train. And I get underneath and, and, uh... That was... When you talk about life growing up quick, you... In one night, it was like reading chapters of a book. Uh, uh, you went through different things and you learn different things about yourself and about what's there, what you don't see, uh, and that you haven't been around, but it's there. And it's good to know it's there. A different life, d- different way. And I'm down in the South Bronx and, and, uh, first thing I did, I went to Mr. Santos. He wa- he was the father of one of my kids. I went to his bar across the street, said, "Mr. Santos, my car's over there." "Gotcha." And when I come out and all the batteries of the cars were gone except mine, quite often. And, uh... But my car was good. Mr. Santos and his g- crew made sure that nobody took my battery. And so we were good. So I was looking after the kids because I did what I had to do, but it was a scary place. It was a tough place. And, um, the kids grew up fast. It was three flights and I alw- often thought that it was meant to be three flights because you had time to think during those flights. The first flight, quite frankly, uh, you saw syringes sometimes. Kids didn't know nothing about... These kids were Catskill, New York. They... Uh, really? Syringes?And then the next flight, y- you know, you smelled urine, because people were there. They went up there and they were, you know, going to bathroom, doing whatever and shooting up, whatever. And you, it, it would smell. But then by the time you get to the third flight, you started to hear noise. You started to hear salsa music. And you, uh, you could smell something. They were, they were cooking all the Spanish specialties. The, uh, the fried bananas. The, uh, the meat with the, with the potato in the middle. Plantas and all the... I don't even rem- you know, I don't remember all the names. But all the diff- and then of course, a lot of rum. A lot of l- it was a bar. But that's how they kept, that's how they paid the rent for the gym, because they would do these smokers twice a month. You know, there was a smoke every week in New York. Every week. People had to know where they were. But they were every week. And yeah, they weren't sanctioned. There was no doctor. And listen, I'm going out there and saying, "Yeah, that don't sound too good. I g- I gotcha." But we made it good. Yeah, we made it good. We made sure we took after... We, we've made it... I know, it was still dangerous, it was still all that, but you wanna know something? A kid drinking a bottle of vodka a day was pretty freaking dangerous. Okay? (laughs) I had some idiot one time, I was trying to get money for my foundation and I was explaining to him, and, and he was a political guy, and I was explaining to him and he goes, "Oh, but you got brain damage from boxing. It, is very, very dangerous." Look, I g- I, I was trying to, like you, when you want to throw your headset when you see these jok- I was like trying to control myself, I'm trying to talk to him. I'm supposed to talk the right guy- way to this guy if I'm gonna get money for my foundation that helps these people, right? So I'm trying to talk to him and I'm saying, "Um, do you get brain damage, uh, from being out in the street and getting hit with a pipe? Do you get brain da-" Because this is the people I'm helping. "Do you get brain damage, um, from doing crack?" (scoffs) "Do you get brain damage..." I did have a kid who drank a bottle of vodka. Now, when he came to m- to my program and the foundation that we run, uh, for two years he's been... Well, now it's three years, he's been clean. Uh, he's back with his family. He was living on the streets, he was with gangs. And when he got into boxing in one of our programs, uh, he, he stopped all that. But he was drinking a bottle of vodka. Yeah, that's true. 15 year, yeah, a lot of people say, "Teddy, how do you drink?" Uh, uh, y- yeah, but he was. How do you do it? Because you have a lot of pain maybe or whatever, whatever. But yeah, he was. And so I was, I said to the guy, I was trying not to get into an argument, but I was like, "Boxing causes brain damage, but I'm taking guys away f- kids that the alternative is the bottle of vodka, the crack, the needle, the pipe on the head, or maybe the pipe on someone else's head where they caused brain damage to someone else. May- maybe unfortunately you one day walking out of your house. What about that? Brain damage? That's your way of telling me no? That's your way of not giving me what I'm asking for, to say that? Why don't you think it out a little bit more? Why don't you think it out a little more and give me a better excuse? Why don't you at least understand what we're talking..." "Y- yeah." There's a reason why we're doing this. So these kids, we would go, we would go to the South Bronx and these kids would, they'd walk up, you know, like I said, they walk up the steps. By the time that door opened up... And, and again, this is how they paid the rent, by selling liquor, by charging $3 to get in and selling that food. And the place would be packed. Packed. And when the hell went by, you talk about, you talk, we talked a l- little bit about pressure and about, you know, what pressure does to you. It, it can form you. It could destroy you, but it could form you. It could make you realize what you're capable of. You know what the greatest thing about what boxing does for somebody? It makes them know, "Teddy, what does boxing do for you?" "Well, you jab, you da-" "No, your condition, you take care of your temple, your body, all that stuff." "Yeah, sounds good." "Teddy, give us one thing that boxing does for the..." "It lets you know you can depend on yourself." Lets a kid know that he can like himself. They don't know he can like himself and depend on himself. These kids. So, was it rough? Yeah, it was rough. So we're in the place and yeah, there's no doctor. Yeah, we had no sanctioning organization. We made our own fights. But there was a danger, but I just told you the other dangers. This was taking them and replacing those other dangers. This was taking them away from that. You know what? It was the only positive thing in the neighborhood for these kids. It really was. Was it rough? Yeah. It's boxing. But I just talked about life is rough, especially for these people. Rougher. So it, it, it was an alternative to violence. People say, "Teddy, what are you talking about boxing for?" "No." Because if you're angry, which these kids are, if they don't learn to lose that anger, they never become anything in boxing because they walk in and get hit. They learn that they can control that anger, they can put it somewhere. They learn that they can control themselves. They can depend on themselves to be something positive. So I would take a, these kids and we would go there and we were the only white kids in the place. And they loved us. They were funny. Like I said, the guy who ran it, Nelson Cuevas, he wa- he was a great guy. But he, you know, it was rough. I mean, look, he carried a gun in his holster, in his, in his belt, belt because he knew, yeah, it could be rough there. (laughs) I mean, I... Did I leave that part out to the parents when I was taking them, that (laughs) th- the proprietor of the place, you know, has a gun and every once in a while, he opens his jacket (laughs) and makes sure (laughs) that the people remember that he has it? Yeah. All right. But they looked out for you. They... The kids... I know, I know it sounds contrary. I get it, contradictory. But it was a... These kids, they learned so much about themselves. And we prote-... I looked out, we looked out for... And when it came time to make the matches, the point I was making about Wilder and you talked about being long and about... You know, I'm sorry I jump all over the place.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, it's great.
- TATeddy Atlas
But, uh, uh, Baba, I al-... I learned. Cus taught me this, but you have to learn it yourself. You have to see it. You have to be in it. Cus told me about it, but that's only part of it. He always told me, "Teddy, be careful with skinny, wiry guys. They, they're the greatest punchers." Think... I was thinking, you know, this (smacks hands) , "They're the greatest punchers." He never told me why. He let me figure it out. I saw it. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
I saw it when he... you get him... (grunts) Yeah. D-... You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Tommy Hearns.
- TATeddy Atlas
Yeah. But I know why now. Leverage.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
Torque, talk, whatever you call that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TATeddy Atlas
And so anyway, so here we are. And if you saw the guy, you knew who to match with. But if you didn't see the guy, you had to depend on other things. Who's the coach? Certain coaches had no good fighters. Certain coaches had good fighters. Another coach, does he have a good rely... Is he honest? Is he lying? Does he have, does he have a opinion that is good or does he just say things? So I'd have to go through all that. If I didn't know the guy, I wouldn't put my kid in with the guy unless I was sure what he was. Sure. And it was hard because everyone was lying. There wa- there was, like, a code. It was all connected to lying, unfortunately. But, but everyone looking out for their kid. Like, if you said... if... l-... I'll give you an example because we've... Be-... Guess who the matchmaker was? I became the matchmaker with... you know, in the place. All Spanish, Black, I mean, but Nelson made me the matchmaker. "You be the matchmaker." And a lot of the people didn't speak English, so, you know, we, we figure it out. We get there. So I'd be the... So I'd... P-... You make a column. The name of the fighter, the weight. Yeah. So you, you weigh 'em, you know, that's one thing. You see it. Okay. That's the only truth. The rest of it got dicey. "Okay. How many fights?" Most important thing. Most important thing. How many fights? Zero. Everyone in this place got zero fights? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
Nelson, nobody got fights in this place? You've been doing this for years. Y-... So, okay, here's the code. Zero fights means two or three. Won two or three fights meant six to 10.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
God forbid anyone ever said they had five, six fights. Anywhere from 25 to 100. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
(laughs) Real. Real. This is the world that I lived in for five, six years. Took them every Friday, every... Drove down to the Bronx and got them a smoker every week. And so you figured out the code after a while. But you're responsible for these kids, so you wanted every tangible thing you could have. So again, if I wasn't sure how much (laughs) the guy was lying, that he was lying a little extra, I, I would... I'd go to Nelson. "You know this guy?" "No, but talk to Pablo. Talk to Angel." "All right. You know the guy?" "No. Yeah, he's... Stay away from." "No fight." You know, because I'm not taking a chance. But then when you get to the point where you don't really know, then I would... Just your instincts come alive. You're protecting your kid. It's your kid. It's your kid as much as it's paternally your kid. It's your kid. I, I remember one time I went up to the guy. I, I couldn't get enough info. I went up to the guy, brought Nelson as an interpreter because he didn't speak English and I said, "Listen, I know what we do here. All I'm telling you is I'm not putting my kid in with... to get beat up. If it's fair, it's fair, but I'm not putting him in with a kid that's got 30, 40 fights. My kid legitimate, legitimately has two fights. I'm telling you. I know we don't do that here, but, uh, I'm telling you, that's what he's got. If your kid's got 40 f-... tell me. Just tell me and say, 'No fight.' And th-... and I'll shake your hand and that's it. We're good." So he kept... He stood to his story. So we get close and I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, and I'm watching the guy warm up. Cus always told me, "Watch the guy warm up. Watch him warm up." I'm watching him warm up. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. Bah, bah. Hey, bah, bah. Hey, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. I said, "This guy (laughs) didn't have two fights." I mean, I- I'm a pretty good trainer and even without fights, I think I teach them technically what they need to know before they get to experi... But this guy was beyond that. (laughs) I mean, you know, this was Sugar Ray Robinson.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- TATeddy Atlas
So I go back to Nelson. I said, "Bring him over here again," 10 minutes before the fight. I said, "Bring him over here again." Comes over. "Oh." You know, a little bit of an attitude. It's all right. Everyone's got attitudes in this business. I said, "Hey, um, listen, one more time."... I just wanna tell you. Not threatening you, but I have to tell you this. You told me he's got no fights, whatever, two fight, whatever. When the bell rings, if you got off on me, I was wrong, you were right, soon as the bell rings, I'm gonna see it. I'm gonna know it. There's nothing you can say afterwards to say, to explain it. I'll know it. And I'll stop the fight if I have to, because I'll protect my kid. And right after I do that, I'll be coming over to you. That's all I'm gonna say. So please, please, for you, for me, please, if it's, if it's, if it's what I'm saying, please, just, just tell Nelson. You don't have to tell me. Just tell Nelson when I leave here that we're not gonna fight. Nelson came back to me four minutes, three minutes, two minutes later and said, "He said no fight." Thank you. Tell him thank you. Tell him thank you. That's the world we lived in there, but we got it done. We got it done though, Joe. We did. We really did. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, thank God that someone like you was able to understand that there is a big difference.
- TATeddy Atlas
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And that you can, y- you know, these guys that sandbag like that-
Episode duration: 3:10:41
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Transcript of episode BEwq64YTSO8
