JRE MMA Show #53 with Jeff Novitzky

Joe Rogan 0:00 ... four, three, two, one. Boom. Got a little thing going on here now, a little circle. Hello, Jeff. Merry Christmas.

Jeff Novitzky 0:13 What's up, Joe? You too.

Joe Rogan 0:14 How you living? (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 0:15 (laughs) Not been the easiest week in, in my life or my career is last week, but hanging in there.

Joe Rogan 0:20 To make this a standalone so that people don't have to go r- figuring this out on their own, and I- I'm sure many, many fans that are tuning in already know the, the gist of the details, let's lay this out from the beginning. Jon Jones' initial failed test.

Jeff Novitzky 0:36 Yeah, so that was July of 2017. He tested positive for approximately 20, anywhere from 20 to 60 picograms of a long-term metabolite known as the M3 metabolite of a substance called dihydrocholormethyltestosterone, DH-CMT, also known as oral Turinabol.

Joe Rogan 0:58 And this was over a year ago. Um, what was determined to be the source of this stuff?

Jeff Novitzky 1:04 Never determined what the source was.

Joe Rogan 1:07 Hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 1:07 So Jon went through a full arbitration hearing, um, was never able to determine where it came from. Tested all the supplements he was using, you know, went through many, uh, interviews with USADA, had a full-on arbitration hearing. Uh, the source was never determined where it came from.

Joe Rogan 1:24 Why was his suspension so low or so short if it wasn't determined?

Jeff Novitzky 1:29 Well, I mean ... (laughs) So, I mean, there's many factors that, that go into what that suspension was. I w- I would argue in the tota- totality of the evidence that was presented in that arbitration that it, that it wasn't a short suspension, um, because really one key thing came out at arbitration. So Jon went to arbitration before an individual by the name of Richard McLaren. Richard McLaren has an arbitration group up in Canada, and McLaren is probably worldwide known as one of the most credible guys in anti-doping. I know you had the, the Icarus producer, director on.

Joe Rogan 2:03 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 2:03 The McLaren report was the report that came from all that. He basically investigated the Russian state being involved in doping in the Sochi games and put out actually a series of reports on it detailing that up to 1,000 Russian athletes, um, you know, were breaking the rules and the Russian laboratory was helping them get around it. So-

Joe Rogan 2:23 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 2:24 ... he's a very, very respected guy. He's independent of, obviously, the UFC. He's independent of USADA. Um, he acts on his own.

Joe Rogan 2:33 And his determination was?

Jeff Novitzky 2:34 His determination, um, and I'll read you kind of what he said.

Joe Rogan 2:38 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 2:38 He said, "I find that all evidence available to me leads me to conclude that the violation was not intended nor could it have e- enhanced the athlete's performance." So A, non-intentional, so non-intentional ingestion. I mean, there's no argument that it was in his system, but he found the evidence to show non-intentional use, and then he went further saying that based on the numbers of what he saw in the evidence, there was not even a performance-enhancing benefit afforded to Jon for having this long-term metabolite in his system. And I think that's significant when you talk about, hey, 15 months, was that ... That's, you know, kinda light being that this is his second time through. I would argue that if there was an argument, that maybe it's on the higher end. And certainly, you know, we'll talk about the California commission. Andy Foster took that position, uh, in Jon's recent California hearing. He was a little bit critical of USADA. Um, he thought, you know, he's intimately familiar with this evidence, both in the previous case and this occurrence, that, and he also saw that there was no evidence that an independent arbitrator, you know, made this, uh, statement and decision of Jon intentionally cheating. Um, so if anything, you know, I'd say that potentially there could be an argument that, that it was, you know, on the higher end versus the lower end.

Joe Rogan 3:56 Because of the fact that it was an unintentional ingestion.

Jeff Novitzky 3:59 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 3:59 Now, what is Jon's excuse? What does, what has Jon said how he got this into his system?

Jeff Novitzky 4:04 Yeah. Well, look, you know, and it, and it's, it's detailed in the arbitration hearing and all. Jon, Jon fully admits that, you know, some of the lifeti- lifestyle decisions he was making, you know, the partying and things, you know, probably did not lead to, to making smart decisions and making smart choices in terms of what was being ingested in the body. But certainly his testimony was, under oath, that I have never intentionally cheated and did not intentionally put this substance in my body. And not only this case, but as we talk about the subsequent case here, I think you'll see that based on the numbers, you know, coming out of his tests and based on some studies that have been done on some of these substances, it would tend to support that.

Joe Rogan 4:45 Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jon test negative then test positive for extremely low numbers? This is the initial test before we get into the most recent failed test.

Jeff Novitzky 4:55 He did. So-

Joe Rogan 4:56 Test negative, then test positive very shortly after with a very small trace amount.

Jeff Novitzky 5:02 Correct. So he had two negative tests on July 7th and July 8th, I believe, of 2017. And then weigh-in day, I think it was July 28th, he was positive for a very low level of the M3 metabolite. And, and we might as well start here. So again, going back to Icarus, remember, remember the doctor? I mean, he's the main character in that, Rodchenkov.

Joe Rogan 5:24 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 5:25 In 2011, he put out a study on oral Turinabol. Um, he actually, my understanding, has dosed himself and then studied the excretion of his urine and what was coming out of it over the weeks and months after and determined that there were s- multiple, maybe up to 50 metabolites that once this DH-CMT was ingested into the body, the body converted into other substances and these, these metabolites stayed around. He identified some short-term metabolites, some medium-term metabolites.... and some long-term metabolites, specifically the M3 that Jon's tested positive for.

Joe Rogan 6:04 So these long-term metabolites would indicate that it was taken a long time ago.

Jeff Novitzky 6:09 They would stay around for the longest-

Joe Rogan 6:11 Why-

Jeff Novitzky 6:11 Um-

Joe Rogan 6:11 ... why was he testing negative and then testing positive for these extremely s-

Jeff Novitzky 6:15 So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:16 ... low numbers?

Jeff Novitzky 6:17 That's a good question, and that's, that's basically the question in point. But what was not occurring, and what has never occurred in any of Jon's samples, is any presence of the short and medium-term metabolites. And if you look at, uh, Rodchenkov's study, he identifies a couple of these medium-term metabolites, Roman numeral one and Roman numeral two, and he says these metabolites, based on his study, will stay in the body at least 22 days. W- well, let's look back to the July 7th and 8th, you know, positive tests. He's negative on July 7th and 8th for everything, for the parent compound, for the short-term, medium-torn- term metabolites, and the long-term metabolites. Go 20, 21 days later, so within that 22-day window, which his study shows the short and medium-term metabolites would still be showing up, and there's no presence whatsoever of the short or medium-term metabolites. Now again, we'll get into this a little bit more, but I think the science, what it's showing is a pulsing effect for this long-term metabolite, meaning once you ingest, whether intentionally or non-intentionally, oral Turinabol into the body, the body breaks it down, produces short-term and medium-term, which is, you know, visible for a short and medium amount of time, and then this M3, which is produced for a long period of time. I think what the issue appears to be, and we'll get into this, the UFC program is not the only program that's seen this. There's another professional sports league that has seen it very frequently. USADA's also seen this on the Olympic side. But we're seeing this strange action with the long-term M3 metabolite, and the theory is, it may be hiding, um, in the fat tissues surrounding organs and maybe have a pulsing effect where it's released at certain times and other times you can't detect it.

Joe Rogan 8:13 And this is not the actual substance itself, but it's a metabolite.

Jeff Novitzky 8:16 Correct, th-

Joe Rogan 8:17 Which indicates a reaction to this substance? So a long-

Jeff Novitzky 8:19 It indicates the body breaking down-

Joe Rogan 8:21 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 8:21 ... the parent compound, the, the oral Turinabol, and turning it into these other things which are stored in the body.

Joe Rogan 8:26 So does-

Jeff Novitzky 8:26 These metabolites are not performance-enhancing drugs. They're the result of the breakdown of the parent drug in the body. A-

Joe Rogan 8:33 Now, what ... How much time is it detectable, the actual drug itself?

Jeff Novitzky 8:38 So, pretty quick, uh, it's a pretty quick clearance time. I think Rodchenkov's study says, you know, maybe a week. Uh, so it's not-

Joe Rogan 8:44 Oh.

Jeff Novitzky 8:44 ... around for very long, and that's why he conducted the study. Ironically enough, and I was gonna go watch Icarus here last night, and I just, I've had too much going on the last week to kind of refresh my mind. But, um, apparently, he, he knew ... This was part of his protocol for Russian athletes. He knew a coach that was still giving the oral Turinabol to Russian athletes, and he had a falling out with the coach. So he goes off on the side and studies, "Hey, the parent compound's gonna get in and out of the body pretty quick. It's gonna be difficult to detect that. Let's try to figure out what stays around and leaves markers in the body for a long time." And so he developed these short and long-term metabolite tests and was able to catch some of this coach's athletes for using the oral Turinabol.

Joe Rogan 9:28 Interesting. So the actual drug itself, it's gone from the system, but the metabolite remains. Now, what is the window that th- this metabolite is supposed to be detectable in the body? 'Cause we're talking now, what are we at, like 18 months?

Jeff Novitzky 9:41 Yeah. So here, here's the-

Joe Rogan 9:42 From initial-

Jeff Novitzky 9:42 ... here's the problem.

Joe Rogan 9:43 Supposed initial ingestion?

Jeff Novitzky 9:44 Yep.

Joe Rogan 9:44 Because my question is, these same long-term metabolites, these existed a year plus ago? It was more than a year? How long ago?

Jeff Novitzky 9:53 That, that's the thi- So July 2017-

Joe Rogan 9:55 So a year and a half.

Jeff Novitzky 9:56 ... was the initial test. So what all the experts, and we'll get through this, what all the experts are telling us, is there is no evidence of re-ingestion. And most likely, this is still remnants from the July 2017 test, however it was to enter into his system. Um, and we'll go through some of these testing numbers that have shown negatives followed by very low level picogram- picogram quantities.

Joe Rogan 10:19 My, my question though was that the, the ingestion that happened-

Jeff Novitzky 10:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:23 ... that he tested positive for in July of 2017 indicated a long-term effect, right? It was a long-term-

Jeff Novitzky 10:30 Long-term metabolite.

Joe Rogan 10:31 ... metabolite.

Jeff Novitzky 10:31 Correct.

Joe Rogan 10:31 So meaning it had already been in his system for a year or so.

Jeff Novitzky 10:34 I- it absolutely could have predated ... You know, the theory the first time through was something had to have entered his system between July 7th and July 8th, those negatives, and this low picogram reading on July 28th. Over this last year, there's been a lot of study into this long-term metabolite. As I mentioned, this isn't just a UFC issue. There's another major professional sports league that, for the time being, wants to keep their, their testing confidential, but they've shared that information with scientists, with USADA, with myself.

Joe Rogan 11:04 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 11:04 They saw it on multiple occasions, this pulsing effect over a year, where you'd see positive tests-

Joe Rogan 11:10 But this is well over a year. We're-

Jeff Novitzky 11:11 Correct.

Joe Rogan 11:11 We're talking two and a half years now, right? If it's a year, if it, if it's a, if i- in July, he had taken it a year ago-

Jeff Novitzky 11:17 Well, July 2017, so you're talking about a year and a half, right? July 2017.

Joe Rogan 11:20 Right, a year, year and a half-

Jeff Novitzky 11:21 Correct.

Joe Rogan 11:21 ... from July '17.

Jeff Novitzky 11:22 Correct.

Joe Rogan 11:23 But it could have been in his system a year prior.

Jeff Novitzky 11:25 I don't know. Yeah, it could have been couple months, a year, I don't know. He had never showed up for that M3 metabolite four. He had been tested, you know, for it. He had been tested multiple times in the program.

Joe Rogan 11:34 But can you ... Correct me if I'm wrong.

Jeff Novitzky 11:35 Sure.

Joe Rogan 11:35 Isn't the same level, isn't it approximately the same picograms that exist today in 2018 that were there in 2017?

Jeff Novitzky 11:46 Generally. If you look, and, and we can go over these numbers, it, it fluctuates, you know, from single digits and never gets into triple digits to, to mid-double digits. So there's some as low as nine picograms over that time. Um, there were some at 60 picograms. However-

Joe Rogan 12:00 And let's explain a picogram to someone-

Jeff Novitzky 12:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:02 ... 'cause it's a preposterously small thing.

Jeff Novitzky 12:04 It is. It's insane. And you know, the, the analogy that I heard early on was, and I think Jon used this, throw a pinch of salt in an Olympic swimming pool. And I'm like, "Okay, well that's ... You kind of wrap your head around that." Let's go to the other side. Let's talk about something really small that we know of and how many times you have to break down that small particle to get to a picogram. So one grain of salt, and we all know what that looks like, right? You put that in front of you, and you split that, and I had mentioned this week 50 million. It's actually 58 million. If you split that 58 million times, a grain of salt-... each one is a picogram. I mean, it's incomprehensible, the detection level and how small that is. It really is. It's crazy.

Joe Rogan 12:46 And y- y- how many picograms did they find in his system?

Jeff Novitzky 12:49 So he's gone from, and, and I'll, I'll read through it here. So here's the, here's ... Since the initial appearance of the M3 metabolite, here's what Jon's tests look like and those picogram readings. So the first one was collection date was July 28th, 2017. He had a concentration of 80 picograms. However, let me caution, and I'll read something from, from an expert. When you get down to these picogram levels, um, the science is somewhat inexact because it's such a small amount. So the variable, the plus or minus, you know, can be anywhere from 20, 30. I've seen in, in some instances, 50 or 60. So what this scientist name is, his name is Larry Bowers, um, he was formerly the si- the USADA Science Director. He's currently retired and independently consults. Before that, he ran an Olympic, uh, Olympic committee, uh, accredited laboratory at the University of Indiana. The guy's got 20 to 25 years of anti-doping experience. Here's what he, he told me about, uh, you know, when you're, when you're analyzing small picogram levels. "Although the two lab, uh, respective laboratories report a concentration, I would caution against becoming too fixated on the numbers. First, the numbers are really estimates of concentration and probably should be considered a range of about plus or minus 20 picograms per mL." And he said the December 9th result would be in the range of Jon's, and we'll get to that, between 60 and 100. "Second, while the adjustment of concentration by specific gravity attempts to deal with the variability of urinary excretion rates, it is an exact, it is inexact and adds variability to the estimates. Finally, and most importantly, science has no clear understanding of the variance of urinary excretion of drugs at ultra-trace concentrations." So basically, he's saying, look, I mean, we have a general idea how this works in science, but, and I think this instance comes to play, be real careful if you're gonna be the guy with the pseudoscience out there saying, "Wait a second. Jon jumped from 20 to 60 from September to December, and that means he re-ingested it." What he's saying here is, slow your roll on that. That, that it's such a small, incomprehensible level that we don't really know what those variances are gonna look like. Now, I think if we saw jumps in Jon from single digit, eight or nine picogram to multiple hundred digit picograms, there would be a concern and maybe some re- re-administration. But the experts I've speaking to, when you're talking variability of 10, 20, 30, 40, it's not that significant at the picogram level.

Joe Rogan 15:29 What is the window where this long-term metabolite s- starts to express itself? Like, what ... You said there's short term and there's medium term. This is the long term. How long does it take for the long term one?

Jeff Novitzky 15:40 Yeah. That's, that's a good question. I, I don't have the answer to that. It may be in Rodchenkov's report here. And I, I would encourage those that are at home, you know, playing, playing scientist at, at their computer. Uh, the Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, uh, Rodchenkov writes a report, "Detection and Mass Spec- Spectrometric Characterization of Novel Long-Term Dehydrochloromethyltestosterone Metabolites in Human Urine." I'm not sure when that long-term metabolite, how long it takes to, to show up. Here's the problem though with this substance. He did a real brief study, my understanding he's administered it to himself. That's the only study that exists.

Joe Rogan 16:20 Mm.

Jeff Novitzky 16:21 Oral Turinabol, DHCMT, to my understanding, is not approved for use for human consump- consumption anywhere, anywhere in any country. So you can't have clinical trials ethically in the medical world because it's just not legal to give this to human beings. So, you know, we're, we're already kinda behind the eight-ball here in that, you know, as compared to other substances where you can do clinical trials 'cause they're readily available via pre- prescription or whatever, this substance is not. This substance was created by the East Germans in the '70s and '80s and was part of their state-sponsored doping program where they were doping their athletes.

Joe Rogan 17:01 And can you correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe what I've read is that this is particularly effective when people are cutting weight.

Jeff Novitzky 17:09 Yeah. I mean-

Joe Rogan 17:09 Is that true or is this just more-

Jeff Novitzky 17:11 I don't know about that.

Joe Rogan 17:12 ... monologue?

Jeff Novitzky 17:12 I think some may be confusing Turinabol with oral Turinabol, two completely-

Joe Rogan 17:17 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 17:17 ... different substances.

Joe Rogan 17:18 Let's talk about that, 'cause this, that's actually very important.

Jeff Novitzky 17:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:20 There's, there's very different effects on the body. There's very different windows in terms of detection time. Ex- explain that to me, please.

Jeff Novitzky 17:27 Yeah. You, you gotta be really careful in this world of performance-enhancing drugs. There's names that are interchangeable. There's different, you know, chemical names where you change a little bit of that chemical name, it could be a m- mean a completely different substance. There's instances where the chemical name is different but the substance is actually the same. So when trying to compare two substances, you know, make sure, if you're at home doing that analysis, you're comparing the right ones. Straight Turinabol is different than oral Turinabol.

Joe Rogan 17:55 What is the difference?

Jeff Novitzky 17:57 Uh, yeah. I c- I can't tell you. I'm not as familiar with Turinabol other than it's not oral Turinabol.

Joe Rogan 18:02 So, but there is a difference in terms of the detection window?

Jeff Novitzky 18:06 Yeah, there would be, and I mean, different substances create and throw out different metabolites, um, and different substances have different detection windows.

Joe Rogan 18:14 So-

Jeff Novitzky 18:14 So I haven't done my study and research on straight Turinabol other than knowing it's different than the substance here.

Joe Rogan 18:20 So, uh, Grigory Rodchenkov, that's how you say his last name, right?

Jeff Novitzky 18:23 Yep. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:23 He was the only guy to do an actual verified study.

Jeff Novitzky 18:28 Correct.

Joe Rogan 18:28 Now has this study been ... Has it been peer-reviewed?

Jeff Novitzky 18:31 Yeah, I mean, it ... Well, it's, it's published in-... the Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. So in order to get something published, it needs to be peer-reviewed.

Joe Rogan 18:40 Right. So, the- it's- has it been replicated anywhere?

Jeff Novitzky 18:43 Not that I'm aware of.

Joe Rogan 18:44 No.

Jeff Novitzky 18:44 Nope.

Joe Rogan 18:44 So it's just ... So we have one study-

Jeff Novitzky 18:46 Correct.

Joe Rogan 18:46 ... which is really fascinating.

Jeff Novitzky 18:47 Correct.

Joe Rogan 18:47 So we know that ... Well, first of all, we know this is an effective steroid. We know it works.

Jeff Novitzky 18:52 Yeah, the East Germans, I think, show that. They wouldn't be- have been using it. Um, it's, it's not a difficult ... It's not a easy s- easy substance to get ahold of. Look, when it's not approved for use anywhere in the world, um, it's only available on the black market. Um, so you'd probably have to go to China to get it manufactured or, you know, research chemical supply company.

Joe Rogan 19:12 N-

Jeff Novitzky 19:12 It's not supposed to be provided to, to humans.

Joe Rogan 19:14 Now, I'm certainly not attributing this to you, but there were rumors. This was one discussion was that one of the possible ways he could've ingested this-

Jeff Novitzky 19:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:26 ... um, and let's be very kind, Jon likes to party. Okay. One of the things about partying is people do cocaine.

Jeff Novitzky 19:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:31 And one of the things about cocaine is sometimes cocaine is cut with creatine. One of the things about creatine is oftentimes you're buying cheap creatine, espe- ... Well, one of the things that we've had with Onnit, Onnit's ... Our, our products are all third-party verified, but in the initial goings, when we tried different, uh, manufacturers, especially for Alpha Brain, we found there were other trace, uh, elements that were in Alpha Brain that weren't supposed to be in there. And it's because of the vats that they mix these things up with. And one of the things that we had heard was that creatine oftentimes is made in the same place where they might be making oral Turinabol, they might be making Anabol. They might be making a bunch of different things, and trace amounts of this stuff can get into the creatine. They use creatine to cut cocaine with.

Jeff Novitzky 20:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:16 Is this, is this possible or am I just-

Jeff Novitzky 20:18 Yeah, it's, it's absolutely a theory. I don't ... You know, I, I, I can't sit here and say-

Joe Rogan 20:22 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 20:22 ... that happened, but I will-

Joe Rogan 20:23 But you have heard similar things.

Jeff Novitzky 20:24 I have heard similar things. I know for a fact, based on my previous career, I worked closely with the DEA. I was with the FDA. I worked cases involving street distribution of recreational drugs, including cocaine. I know for a fact that creatine is one of the most common substances that cocaine is cut with, because it has a similar look.

Joe Rogan 20:44 It has a similar look, yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 20:44 Similar color, similar feel. So getting back to McLaren's arbitration decision, I mean, this is a publicly available record, so I'm not saying anything new. But it ... McLaren addresses at least Jon's lifestyle around this time, and he says, "The athlete openly admitted to USADA that prior to and for a period of time after the reporting of his second adverse analytical finding on July 28, 2017, the athlete used illicit so-called street drugs, including cocaine."

Joe Rogan 21:13 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 21:13 Now, for me to sit here and say, "Hey, that's where it came from," I-

Joe Rogan 21:15 What's the time period?

Jeff Novitzky 21:16 ... I don't know that.

Joe Rogan 21:16 What's the time period he's talking about there?

Jeff Novitzky 21:19 "The athlete admitted," um, "that prior to and for a period of time after the reporting of his second adverse analytical finding on July 27, 2017," admitted. So before that test and sometime after.

Joe Rogan 21:33 (inhales deeply) Okay. So does that make sense though? If it, it's cut ... If that's what, where the, the source of it is, does it make sense that that would show up as a long-term metabolite? Doesn't it need a long time in the body to digest, or do we not know enough about the window of time?

Jeff Novitzky 21:52 Yeah, I don't know if we know enough about the window of time. You know, my, my theory in looking at it is even if there's a small amount of the oral Turinabol in that-

Joe Rogan 22:03 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 22:03 ... it's going to, for a period of time, show that parent compound at a small picogram amount and the short- and mid-term metabolites in the small picogram amount. We have never seen those in the history of Jon's testing. It's only this long-term metabolite. So that may be indication that it occurred maybe even prior to what we're talking about here.

Joe Rogan 22:24 Is it something that could be accentuated in some way by the weight-cutting process?

Jeff Novitzky 22:30 I absolutely think that could be a factor. Um, there are studies, not necessarily with this, but a- another substance, clomiphene ... And look, I want that ... While I'm cautioning people to be careful about comparing different substances, the commonality between clomiphene, which there are multiple clinical studies on 'cause it is approved for use to be distributed to humans, and oral Turinabol, is they're both chlorinated. So they both contain a chlorine atom on the molecule. And there is a recently published study on clomiphene and its excretion rates. Um, again, for those at home that wanna look it up, the study was published in the Endocrine Society publication. It's peer-reviewed. The name of it is HPT Access Effects and Urinary Detection Following Clomiphene Administration in Males. So what they did is they basically, you know, got a group of males, um, gave them a th- a one-month, um, cycle of clomiphene, you know, I think 25 milligrams a day, and then had them get off, and then continued to look at their urine up to 261 days after. And what you saw and what you see in this study is that pulsing effect. So, you know, I'm looking at some of the study subjects here. Um, subject one, on day 121, still showed 147 picograms of clomiphene. Day 128 showed 174 picograms. Day 135 shows nothing. He's below the m- the minimum recording, uh, reporting limit. And then day 149 he's back up to 236. There are one, two, three, four, five, six out of, I think, 12 subjects in that study that showed this pulsing effect of this chlorinated substance coming and going. Again, you know, it's- it's different than oral Turinabol, but it has that common factor of being chlorinated. In this study, they do talk about, um, a fat tissue called the ... Let me look this up and make sure I got this right. Adipose tissue.

Joe Rogan 24:39 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 24:40 This is fat that surrounds the internal organs. It's one of the last things that the body burns when it's going, you know, starving itself and going to fat. It protects those organs. But yeah, you look at these, you know, extreme weight gains and cuts that the UFC athlete goes through, I don't think you're gonna find ...... possibly another human subject anywhere that goes through putting weight on-

Joe Rogan 25:02 Other than Olympic wrestling.

Jeff Novitzky 25:04 ... cutting up. Maybe, but I don't think Olympic wrestling matches what an MMA fighter, um, goes through at least, you know, in my experience over these three or four years talking to those in the Olympic world. I think we're at the extreme and it's, it's something obviously we've talked about before-

Joe Rogan 25:17 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 25:17 ... we're trying to curtail. But, you know, there's, there's clearly never been a study for anybody who dehydrates and rehy- hydrates themselves to the extent that some of our athletes do. You could never find, there would never be anybody with any ethics that would support a study, because some of that dehydration exceeds World Health Organization standards. So there's no studies out there, you know, on this stuff, but clearly, you know, looking from afar, I- I'd say that it likely has some impact over what's being released by this adipose tissue.

Joe Rogan 25:48 We should certainly talk about that, um, in the future, about the, the weight cutting aspect of it. So th- but this adipose tissue loss at extreme weight cuts could potentially be the reason why this stuff is excreting itself.

Jeff Novitzky 26:01 It's, it's definitely a theory out there.

Joe Rogan 26:02 What about microdosing?

Jeff Novitzky 26:04 So here's the thing with microdosing. Microdosing is done with endogenous substances. So-

Joe Rogan 26:11 Only?

Jeff Novitzky 26:11 ... test- it, it ... Well, I mean, someone could try it with something else, but it ... the reason you microdose with endogenous substances is they're already produced in the body.

Joe Rogan 26:20 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 26:20 So the theory of, "Okay, I'm gonna microdose oral turinabol." Well, oral turinabol's still producing these short-term and long-term metabolites. In theory, whether you're taking 100 milligrams or one milligram of oral turinabol, those excretion rates of those metabolites are still gonna be consistent. They're gonna be on a much smaller level.

Joe Rogan 26:42 Is there a way to bypass those excretion rates? Is there a way to mask that in some way?

Jeff Novitzky 26:46 I'm not aware of any. Um, I of- I oppose-

Joe Rogan 26:49 So the only, the only study-

Jeff Novitzky 26:49 G- go ahead.

Joe Rogan 26:50 I'm sorry. The only study we have is Gregory Riche- Riche-

Jeff Novitzky 26:52 Correct.

Joe Rogan 26:53 That's it?

Jeff Novitzky 26:53 Correct. But, you know, just taking it from a common sense approach, it's certainly, you know, those that know about microdosing know that you microdose with endogenous substances, things that are already appearing in the body. The the-

Joe Rogan 27:05 So your body knows what to do with them.

Jeff Novitzky 27:07 Knows what to do, and you're fooling, you know ... Not only are these metabolizing and there's no metabolites of them, but you could also be fooling the biological passport. That's the concern, I think-

Joe Rogan 27:17 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 27:17 ... and why people microdose. So you saw it as looking not only testing for specific substances, but are testosterone to epitestosterone ratios going up? They're looking at, at blood values. How many young red blood cells, how many mature red blood cells? So microdosing in those two areas wouldn't set off alarms in the biological passport world. Um, I've never heard personally of microdosing of exogenous substances that are not found in the body. Microdosing, in my understanding, is done with things that are endogenous and already found in the body.

Joe Rogan 27:48 And again that take ... For people that are not familiar with this terminology, we're just talking about microdosing performance-enhancing drugs. Because, uh, microdosing in today's world is a very common thing with mushrooms and L- LSD and a lot of other things.

Jeff Novitzky 28:01 Right. I mean, I saw a ton of microdosing in the, in the, the cycling world.

Joe Rogan 28:05 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 28:05 That was-

Joe Rogan 28:06 Testosterone?

Jeff Novitzky 28:06 ... testosterone, EPO, HGH. All those natural, occurring in the body and-

Joe Rogan 28:11 And so they don't produce any b- b- really, um, red flag metabolites.

Jeff Novitzky 28:16 If you do 'em at very, very small levels, they'll ... The parent will cle- quickly not produce any metabolites and will not throw off the biological passport analysis.

Joe Rogan 28:25 Um, is there a w- ... I mean, when Victor Conte came out with, uh, the clear and all that stuff with BALCO-

Jeff Novitzky 28:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:32 ... and they were, they were fooling people. Is it, is it ... I mean, one of the things that we've talked about before-

Jeff Novitzky 28:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:37 ... is that it's a constant race to try to keep up with more advanced cheaters.

Jeff Novitzky 28:42 It is. And, and you know what's interesting in this? I mean, with ... If I were to talk to you ... And maybe the first time we did talk a couple years ago, um, it, it's come a long way from them, but clearly if I were to talk to you 15, 16, 17 years ago when I got my start in the anti-doping world, I would have told you definitively the testing is way behind, you know, what's being used out there.

Joe Rogan 29:01 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 29:02 Um, they were testing ... able to test to multiple nanogram, um, limits. That's as far down as we can go. Now, they can go down to single-digit picogram. There's another professional sports league out there that recently had a one picogram M3 metabolite case. I mean, do the math coming down from, you know, four or five nanograms, which used to be the lower limit now to one picogram. 10,000, 20,000 times, I am almost under the theory that the pendulum has swung maybe a little bit too far in the other direction, and that, that certainly is part of my job to the UFC. Look, I want to catch every intentional cheater that's out there. I wanna make sure we have a rock solid program, use all the latest and greatest, you know, um, techniques to do it. But I also want to keep an eye on it to make sure it's being administrated fairly, and when you're getting down to detection of one, you know, single digit picograms, I have a concern that ... What kind of level of sensitivity are we talking about? Are we gonna talk about environmental contamination where you walk, you know, through a room and somebody has just opened a container of something and there's, you know, minuscule powders in the air? There are documented cases that some of the regularly prescribed prescription drugs, specifically, um, diuretics, are getting in water supplies in some areas. You know, you get a lot of old people on them that flush their old, um, pills down the toilet. There's documented cases of it getting into the water supply and being detectable at that picogram level. So you've gotta be really, really careful about that, and I think, you know, this case exemplifies that USADA and, and really the World Anti-Doping Agency world and community are aware of that. Um, you know, with greater sensitivity in testing, in my opinion, bec- you know, makes greater responsibility to be objective and look fairly at what really we're doing here when we're detecting in that small amount.

Joe Rogan 31:03 But this, this-... test of Jon's, where he's testing for the same l- level of picograms today as he was in July of 2017, is it safe to say that this is unprecedented?

Jeff Novitzky 31:18 Uh, r- repeat that again.

Joe Rogan 31:19 That Jon's test for the same levels of picograms of these metabolites in 2018 that he was testing for in 2017 wa- this is unprecedented.

Jeff Novitzky 31:31 No.

Joe Rogan 31:31 It's not?

Jeff Novitzky 31:31 The answer's no.

Joe Rogan 31:32 It's not?

Jeff Novitzky 31:32 So maybe unprecedented in the UFC program, but what the United States Anti-Doping Agency did over these last five or six months is they reached out to the science community outside the scope of the UFC. They reached out to other professional sports organizations, they reached out to other w- WADA laboratories, and what they were seeing was multiple instances of this pulsing effect, where over time you would see a reading.

Joe Rogan 31:58 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 31:59 The next test it would go away, and the next time you'd see that reading again, maybe back up to or even above-

Joe Rogan 32:04 This much time?

Jeff Novitzky 32:05 ... what that was. Correct. Yes.

Joe Rogan 32:07 So in the t-

Jeff Novitzky 32:08 And you see that in the chlo- in the clomiphene study here too.

Joe Rogan 32:10 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 32:10 I mean, almost 260... They stopped the study what... It was still appearing in picogram levels in some subjects, and they stopped the study at 261 days.S and you see those numbers I was reading to you. You see this one subject at 174. He's negative the next time, and then he pops up to two- in the 200s after, so it's actually more than the time before. Again, apples and oranges-

Joe Rogan 32:33 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 32:33 ... different substances, but the commonality here is chlorinated substance.

Joe Rogan 32:37 Chlorine-based. So is, is it safe to say that this is an emerging science, and that we're still l- learning and understanding this as we go along?

Jeff Novitzky 32:47 Absolutely. It, it's still very young. Look, the first, you know, the, the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles were, uh, established the first drug testing laboratory by Dr. Catlin. Um, so really, you know, in the scope of science going back to the, the earliest days, then, you're talking about, you know, what? 30, 30 years? 30, 35 years? Um, again, when I started off in this 16 or 17 years, the science still wasn't good. They were unable to detect anything in the picogram level. Um, again, for, for reference, very interesting. So the, the WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agencies, accredits laboratories across the world, and they have certain standards that those laboratories must meet in order to retain that accreditation, um, and keep that accreditation. So they have a technical document called the Minimum Required Performance Levels of their laboratories. So what they tell the laboratories is, "You must detect these substances down to this amount. If you can't get them down to this amount, then you can't have an accreditation from WADA." So, the class of substances that oral turinabol would be in, um, which would be other anabolic agents, the required minimum level that they must detect to is only two nanograms.

Joe Rogan 34:07 Mm.

Jeff Novitzky 34:07 So, look, WADA even says, "As long as you can get to two nanograms, you can retain our accreditation." Well, what's happening is an arms race in these laboratories. They're saying, "Well, two's the minimum standard, but I, I can get down further."

Joe Rogan 34:20 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 34:20 And, you know, these are private entities that, you know, are looking for, for customers, so to be able to reach out and say, "Well, even though WADA tells us two is as low as we need to go, we can go down to one picogram." I think (laughs) in a, in a sense maybe you need to slow the reins on that a little bit, that we're getting too far and too sensitive of a level of detection when it comes to implementing a fair program, because you can't determine where one picogram c- came from. You could be breathing, again, contaminated air, drinking contaminated water. It gets real dangerous when you get down that low.

Joe Rogan 34:55 Now, how does this reflect on past suspensions? This is, uh, w- when you, you deal with someone like... L- let's bring up Frank Mir, for example.

Jeff Novitzky 35:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:04 Didn't Frank Mir also test for oral turinabol?

Jeff Novitzky 35:07 Okay. I wanna get back to Frank Mir-

Joe Rogan 35:08 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 35:08 ... but let's, let's go back to Jon.

Joe Rogan 35:10 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 35:10 And, and this instance, and why USADA has come out and said, "Look, this is not a violation." So, if you go to the WADA, the World Anti-Doping Code, there's a section, 10.7.4.1. Our UFC program, you know, basically mirrors that, and, uh, we're bringing that up on the screen there.

Joe Rogan 35:29 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 35:29 So for pur- purposes of imposing sanctions under te- 10.7, an anti-doping rule violation will only be considered a second violation if the anti-doping organization can establish the athlete or other person committed the second anti-doping rule violation after the athlete or other person received notice pursuant to Article seven, et cetera. This is what's known as a double jeopardy clause.

Joe Rogan 35:53 Right, so what it means is-

Jeff Novitzky 35:54 You can't be sanctioned-

Joe Rogan 35:54 ... a guy tests positive-

Jeff Novitzky 35:55 Correct.

Joe Rogan 35:56 ... for something, and if he's test positive for the exact same substance that is still in his system a year later, or whatever the amount of time is, you don't include that as a new positive test.

Jeff Novitzky 36:06 One more thing has to happen. Science has to determine that it... there hasn't been a re-administration. So test positive for the same substance, and science says, "Based on all the numbers we see, there's no evidence of any re-administration."

Joe Rogan 36:20 And the non-evidence of the re-administration is the lack of l- short-term and medium-term metabolites.

Jeff Novitzky 36:26 Bingo. Bingo.

Joe Rogan 36:26 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 36:26 Never ever in Jon's-

Joe Rogan 36:28 Is there an issue though that this is only one test, that Grigory Rodchenko's test is the only study that showed that these medium and short-term metabolites exist?

Jeff Novitzky 36:40 It, it's the only study, but I think then, if there's only one study, you have to go to anecdotal evidence, right? And I think-

Joe Rogan 36:45 W- why don't we just do studies on UFC employees?

Jeff Novitzky 36:48 Because oral turinabol-

Joe Rogan 36:50 Get Sean Shelby to take oral turinabol.

Jeff Novitzky 36:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:51 He'll do it.

Jeff Novitzky 36:53 Oral turinabol is illegal-

Joe Rogan 36:55 Oh.

Jeff Novitzky 36:55 ... to distribute and to-

Joe Rogan 36:56 Let's do it in Mexico.

Jeff Novitzky 36:56 (laughs) In any country throughout the world-

Joe Rogan 36:58 Oh.

Jeff Novitzky 36:58 ... it's illegal.

Joe Rogan 36:59 Really?

Jeff Novitzky 37:00 Yes.

Joe Rogan 37:00 Every country?

Jeff Novitzky 37:01 Every country.

Joe Rogan 37:01 But I thought Mexico, they just let you do whatever you wanna do.

Jeff Novitzky 37:02 I don't know. Maybe we can look into that, but...

Joe Rogan 37:04 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 37:05 Shelby may be up for that. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 37:06 I thought that's the reason for living there.

Jeff Novitzky 37:07 Um-

Joe Rogan 37:08 I, I th- uh, I, I have a problem with that, in that we're r- relying on one study. This seems to me to be, like, a, a critical thing that could affect... I mean, we- we're, we're hoping and we're, uh, we're putting faith in this study, that this is the only way that these metabolites express themselves. Is it possible...... that what, uh, that these, like you see with the pulsing effect, that you see, uh, positive effects and negative, or positive, uh, results and negative results, that these short-term and medium-term metabolites don't always express themselves. And that what we're considering a long-term metabolite-

Jeff Novitzky 37:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:46 ... could in fact just be a metabolite.

Jeff Novitzky 37:49 Yeah. I, I mean, I guess it's possible, but what are you ... are you gonna sanction an athlete again because, you know, potentially it's possible, and then the theory-

Joe Rogan 37:57 Not, not saying-

Jeff Novitzky 37:57 ... or the universe. You, you can't do that.

Joe Rogan 37:59 Not, yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 37:59 Let me read to you real quick what, what these experts came out at in terms of re-administration. So, Dr. Daniel Eikner runs the Salt Lake City, it's called the Smort- Sports Medicine Research Testing Laboratory, or SMRTL. They're one of two WADA accredited laboratories in the United States. The other one being at UCLA. Um, again, one of the most respected minds in anti-doping, PhD chemist. Um, his answer, in terms of re-administration, um, was this. And you very rarely see scientists at his level talk in, uh-

Joe Rogan 38:34 Absolutes.

Jeff Novitzky 38:34 ... in absolutes. There you go. And here he says, "There is no evidence that DHCMT has been re-administered." That's in writing to us.

Joe Rogan 38:43 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 38:43 So very definitive on that.

Joe Rogan 38:45 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 38:46 Um, USADA's science director ... Now, Dan- Daniel's independent even of USADA.

Joe Rogan 38:51 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 38:51 So those who criticize, "Hey, USADA's in bed with the UFC," Daniel Eikner doesn't work for USADA. He runs an independent laboratory. USADA sends samples there. The NFL sends samples there. Major League Baseball sends samples there. The NCAA. He's independent, owns his own laboratory. Um, USADA also put out, um, a letter to us in, in writing. "Upon careful consideration of the very low concentration of the DHCMT long-term metabolite in Mr. Jones' sample, and taking into account the human pharmacokinetic characteristics of this particular long-term anabolic steroid metabolite, uh, based on data to which USADA has access to, and in consult- in consultation with scientific experts, some of whose opinions are enclosed, USADA has concluded, consistent with prior residual amounts detected in Mr. Jones' sample, that the presence of DHCMT long-term metabolite is consistent with residual amounts from exposure prior to 2- July 28th, 2017." Um, look, I'm n- I'm not an expert.

Joe Rogan 39:56 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 39:56 I don't profess to be. Um, my, my background's in finance and accounting. I traced the money back in the old days. But I know who those experts are out there in the world, and these are them. Um, they're, by putting these things in writing, putting their reputations on the line now and forever going forward, um, they're never gonna do something like that because, you know, the UFC pays USADA-

Joe Rogan 40:18 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 40:18 ... to administer our program, or because Jon Jones is, you know, a popular fighter and they wanna see him fight this weekend. That's just not the way this world works.

Joe Rogan 40:27 Of course. In, in fact, it works the opposite way. There would be a great benefit if they could catch him cheating.

Jeff Novitzky 40:32 Absolutely. And, you know, historically, experts like this are very, very conservative when it comes to talking in absolutes like this. They don't normally do it.

Joe Rogan 40:42 In all fairness, the real question is guys like you and me, because we are UFC employees. So w-

Jeff Novitzky 40:47 Yes, I, I-

Joe Rogan 40:47 ... are we gonna handle this fairly? And this is ...

Jeff Novitzky 40:49 I get that argument.

Joe Rogan 40:50 Of course. I do too.

Jeff Novitzky 40:50 That, you know, and I saw that left and right. That, "Hey, Jeff and Joe are paid by the UFC, of course they're gonna come out in this way." But look, all these things that I'm reciting today are-

Joe Rogan 40:58 I would never do that in regards to cheating.

Jeff Novitzky 41:01 I wouldn't either. I've ...

Joe Rogan 41:02 I mean, I, I side with the UFC on a lot of things because I support the sport and I want it to excel. I don't side ever with cheating. If I think that there's some way somehow that someone is given an unfair advantage and it's just somehow being covered up, I would rather not work for them.

Jeff Novitzky 41:18 Joe, my, my seven- my last 17 years of my career, my, my, my, you know, everything that I've worked for is to protect the rights of clean athletes and to eradicate cheating from the sport. I can't tell you how strongly I feel about that. Sport's given me everything in my life. My dad was a high school basketball coach. Um, it paid for my college and, and scholarships. It, you know, at least the good characteristics in me, I can all trace directly to sports. And entering into the equation the issues of breaking the rules, the issues of the health and safety aspects when you have young ... And I talked to many parents whose kids, you know, use steroids because they saw the professional athletes doing. Entering that into the body when your hormonal levels are already out of control is very, very dangerous, both short and long term. Can't tell you how passionate I am about this issue. And, and those out there that s- are saying that I'm corrupt, that my reputation is, is out the window, I would never ever-

Joe Rogan 42:16 Well-

Jeff Novitzky 42:16 ... in a million years sit-

Joe Rogan 42:17 ... you can't listen to those people. I mean, you, you, obviously you have, but you (laughs) you-

Jeff Novitzky 42:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:21 ... you can't listen to those people because they want to find things wrong. Um, y- one of the things that I've said about you is you're a guy who loves to catch people cheating. You like it.

Jeff Novitzky 42:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:32 You enjoy it. And it's ...

Jeff Novitzky 42:33 No, that's not true, man.

Joe Rogan 42:34 You do.

Jeff Novitzky 42:34 I don't.

Joe Rogan 42:34 Come on.

Jeff Novitzky 42:35 N-

Joe Rogan 42:35 If t- if someone is cheating and you catch them? Tell me you don't-

Jeff Novitzky 42:38 Well-

Joe Rogan 42:38 ... you don't like that.

Jeff Novitzky 42:38 Okay. In the UFC program, now with what we've established here, absolutely. Back in the old days, and we've talked about this. Look, when you had in baseball or in cycling, no testing going on. Literally the organizations were looking in the other direction. I've often said that, "Look, I don't agree with what they did, but ..." There's a portion of me, and that's why I think a lot of these athletes respected me and shared that information. There's a portion of me that said, "I don't agree with what you did. I'd like to think I wouldn't have made the same decision, but I damn well understand why you did this. You're fighting for millions of dollars in contracts. You know your teammates are doing it. You know your, you know, competitors are doing it, and you know your professional sports organization doesn't give a shit because of the weakness of the testing program or total lack thereof." So in instances like that, there was ... I never came away saying, "That guy's an idiot or an asshole for choosing." I came away saying, "I kinda get why he did it. If I was 21 or 22 years old and immature, I may have made the same decision." Now, coming to our program here-... where you have an organization that cares very much, that spends multimillion dollars a year. This program has done nothing but cost the UFC money. It costs us money in how we implement the program-

Joe Rogan 43:48 Canceled fights.

Jeff Novitzky 43:49 It costs us money on canceling fights. Anybody who thinks moving this fight to California is at a financial benefit to the UFC is crazy. We're taking a bath on this one.

Joe Rogan 43:59 People d- really do need to understand that the UFC decided themselves, they self-imposed USADA's sa- sanctioning of fights.

Jeff Novitzky 44:07 Correct.

Joe Rogan 44:08 And, and nobody forced us to do that. So this is a, this was a big step in the right direction of trying to make the sport cleaner because we recognize that, first of all, there was some legal stuff with the testosterone replacement therapy that just threw everything outta whack.

Jeff Novitzky 44:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:22 Where it was l- essentially, it was sanctioned cheating. I mean, let's be honest about what that was.

Jeff Novitzky 44:28 It was, it was clearly, in my understanding, being manipulated.

Joe Rogan 44:31 Yes.

Jeff Novitzky 44:31 Um, uh, e- very easy to manipulate-

Joe Rogan 44:33 Very easy to manipulate.

Jeff Novitzky 44:33 ... when you get permission to use any prohibited substance like that.

Joe Rogan 44:36 Yeah. And we went from that to unbelievably strict protocols. And now what you're seeing is, uh, you're seeing, first of all, we saw a radical change in the physiques of some fighters, where we, we did have some suspicions. And those suspicions, at least in my eyes, have been confirmed. And now we're seeing th- th- the good side of this with w- what, in your estimation, might have been moved over into a position where, okay, now, now it's getting a little bit ridiculous in terms of like what we can detect and what is, what is causing fights to be canceled.

Jeff Novitzky 45:14 Exactly. So interestingly enough, s- the World Anti-Doping Agency, or WADA, their next code revision is 2021. And so they regularly put out, "Hey, what are the issues going forward that we want to address?" And one of the major issues is potentially establishing thresholds for these low-level substances that keep appearing. Um, DHCMT being one of them, ostarine being one of them. And so the idea that WADA is looking at and has a working group of worldwide experts is, hey, if, if something gets reported back at under 50 picograms, um, all the evidence is showing more likely than not, this is from a very low level contaminant issue. We've never seen an issue of a microdosing or an intentional use that's reached that level. Why are the labs even reporting at sub, at quantities lower than 50 picograms or 100 picograms? I think very soon they're gonna come out with a recommendation. We are gonna adopt that before 2021. Once that working group, and we're in communication with them, comes up with those recommendations, you'll see it implemented first in the UFC program. Again, I've always said, fairness, due process in a program is just as important as the strength and comprehens- p- comprehensiveness of that program. You'll lose faith in your athletes. You could have the strongest loophole-free program in the world, but you start implementing things unfairly, you'll lose faith just as much as if you had a bunch of loopholes in the program. It's got to be fair.

Joe Rogan 46:46 Are you aware of the female skier that, uh, tested positive because of lip balm?

Jeff Novitzky 46:51 Uh, I think yeah. I vaguely recall about that. What, was someone else used a lip balm before her?

Joe Rogan 46:57 No, no, no, no. It was a, uh, a lip balm for sunburn.

Jeff Novitzky 47:01 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 47:01 It was for sunburnt lips, and it had some ridiculously small trace amount, was it ostarine? See if you give... Her name is, uh, Jo, Joburg? I'm trying to remember her name.

Jeff Novitzky 47:15 Well, there was the, the cocaine kissing defense was actually won in our arbitration.

Joe Rogan 47:19 Oh, really?

Jeff Novitzky 47:19 So something similar. Somebody tested positive for, you know, low level metabolites of cocaine and basically said, "Look," you know, hey, whether that was good or not, but, um, you know, the arbitrator bought it and the science shows, hey, that, that is a possibility. The detection levels are so low, if you kiss somebody who had just done cocaine, they're now able to detect that those levels in the s- the person that kissed that person.

Joe Rogan 47:44 That makes sense. Do you, did you find this woman? Yeah, this one ... Yeah. There's a doping label on the label, which is why they gave her a penalty, apparently. Oh, I see. Okay. What is the, um... Who the fuck's reading labels on lip balm though?

Jeff Novitzky 47:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:56 (laughs) You know what I mean?

Jeff Novitzky 47:57 See, that, that's, that's how-

Joe Rogan 47:59 So what does it say?

Jeff Novitzky 47:59 ... crazy it's gotten. I mean, all our athletes know when, when they're using a creatine or a protein or whatever, I think most of them are pretty careful right now. But to tell them, "Hey, you need to read your lip balm and your deodorant." I mean where, w- what level are we getting to here-

Joe Rogan 48:13 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 48:14 ... in these, in these ar- levels of detection?

Joe Rogan 48:16 So she, 21, nine-year-old star of Norway's powerhouse squad of, uh, skiing, cross-country skiing, tested positive for an an- anabolic agent listed in the contents of a treatment for sunburn. Um, this could be similar in some ways to what Chad Mendes tested positive for, for something for psoriasis. Correct? S- Chad Mendes has obvious psoriasis. You can see it on his body. He's talked about it pretty openly and he used some sort of a cream and accepted his penalty. Wasn't aware that this cream had something, some ty- type of a steroid into it.

Jeff Novitzky 48:48 Yeah. I'd, I'd seen him publicly state that. Now he chose not to present a defense or go to arbitration. So I haven't seen anything in detail to give you-

Joe Rogan 48:56 Right. He just wrote off the penalty.

Jeff Novitzky 48:56 ... you know, knowledgeable opinion on that. Yeah, he did.

Joe Rogan 48:59 Um, what are... So let's get back to the Frank Mir case. Frank Mir tested positive. Was it also oral turinabol?

Jeff Novitzky 49:05 Also, same thing, long-term metabolite of oral turinabol. Here's the difference. Frank Mir, the same as Jon Jones, his first time through was sanctioned. Jon didn't get off the first time this showed up in his system. He got, you know, he was looking at potential four years. Went to arbitration, presented evidence, enacted some other clauses in the policy that reduced his sanction. Frank-

Joe Rogan 49:29 What does that mean?

Jeff Novitzky 49:30 Uh, well, one of them was, uh, um, substantial assistance where he assisted USADA in some way, shape, or form and he got a reduction for, for doing that.

Joe Rogan 49:39 Assisted in what way?

Jeff Novitzky 49:41 D- so I don't know. And this is the exact reason why I do this. So I insulate myself from that interaction between USADA and the athlete. They are the sole adju- judicator in this. They do not...... you know, get me on the phone, say, "Hey, we're thinking about going this way." They adjudicate completely in a vacuum.

Joe Rogan 49:59 And you are- you're ... Just so- so people know, your title is, uh, s- safety ... Health and Safety?

Jeff Novitzky 50:05 Athlete Health and Performance.

Joe Rogan 50:06 Health and Perfor-

Jeff Novitzky 50:06 Vice President of Athlete Health and Performance.

Joe Rogan 50:08 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 50:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:09 So, you no longer work for USADA.

Jeff Novitzky 50:11 I've never worked for USADA.

Joe Rogan 50:12 M- w- uh ...

Jeff Novitzky 50:12 That's- that's a big misconception.

Joe Rogan 50:13 You don't. Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 50:13 A lot of our fighters think that. I've never worked for USADA. I was a federal agent for 22 and a half years. Um, the latter part of my career, got involved with all these PED distribution cases. 2015, Lorenzo Fertitta and Dana White, through a mutual, uh, friend, contacted me and said, "Hey, would you come out and kind of talk to us? We're contemplating maybe putting our own program together. We've had some recent high-profile positives." So I came out to Vegas, uh, talked with them, and a week later I get a phone call asking if I wanna come work for them and kind of implement this new program. But I've never been an employee of USADA.

Joe Rogan 50:49 Okay, so that's, that's good to know because that's been stated by some public figures, that you used to work for USADA and now you work for the UFC.

Jeff Novitzky 50:57 Never worked for USADA.

Joe Rogan 50:57 And that you're a shill.

Jeff Novitzky 50:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:59 That's one of my favorite words. Um, so you never worked for USADA. You, uh, brought USADA to the UFC, or communicated with USADA and facilitated this agreement?

Jeff Novitzky 51:10 Correct. So I, I never worked for USADA. I did work very closely with USADA. So USADA, when I first started these series of investigations back in 2002 ... Look, I knew all about how to work a heroin distribution organization, a cocaine distribution organization, methamphetamine. But when it came to performance-enhancing drugs, there was no class that myself or, really, any other federal agent or, or law enforcement agent goes through surrounding distribution of performance-enhancing drugs. So I was examining the discarded garbage of BALCO every week when they put it out to the curb. Began seeing notes, wrappers, all these substances. I had no idea what these things were. I didn't know the difference between testosterone, epitestosterone, erythropoietin, HGH. I knew nothing. So what I did is I figured out who those experts were. Who were the people that could very quickly get me up to speed on what I was looking at? Um, Dr. Catlin, who ran the UCLA Olympic Labs, one of the first, and he started, um, you know, kind of walking me through this. He put me in touch with USADA and, you know, they began educating me as well. So, um, over the course of those investigations, um, I got a lot from them in terms of educating on these substances. They were bringing some of their cooperating witnesses to me, and then we'd go off and running on criminal investigations. Um, but never, never worked for them.

Joe Rogan 52:35 So USADA, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way they would work would be very compartmentalized. Like, they would not specifically communicate with you on all of the details of this.

Jeff Novitzky 52:45 Correct, and they don't now. I mean-

Joe Rogan 52:47 They don't now. So you don't know-

Jeff Novitzky 52:48 That's the independence aspect. I don't ... As these deliberations are going on, what they're looking at, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 52:55 S- but cooperation-

Jeff Novitzky 52:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:56 ... just for me- to be frank, would in- in my eyes would mean that something was done purposely illegally, and this person had some knowledge of purposed ... purposeful illegal activity, and that they would somehow communicate this to facilitate some sort of catching of someone involved in a criminal act or an act of cheating.

Jeff Novitzky 53:18 Yeah. That- that would make sense to me too. Yep.

Joe Rogan 53:19 So that would be what we- we're talking about. USADA would allow Jon a shorter suspension if he actively participated in helping them catch people that were cheating.

Jeff Novitzky 53:29 That- that's the understanding. I don't know what-

Joe Rogan 53:32 That would be the implied-

Jeff Novitzky 53:32 I- that would be implied. I don't know to what level that was done. I don't know if it was that or if it was, "Hey, here's how this drug works. Here-" in more general, "Here's how ..." I don't know what it was. I purposely-

Joe Rogan 53:42 But that would be ... That would mean that Jon would have to know about cheating. If you're saying, like, "This- this is how this drug- drug works. This is how I used it." I mean this would ... He would have ... That- that would- that would mean his initial defense would have to be thrown out the window because it wasn't an accident, right?

Jeff Novitzky 53:55 Well, I- I mean, I don't know about that. If he knew something separate from, you know, that he wasn't doing-

Joe Rogan 54:00 Someone else in the gym.

Jeff Novitzky 54:00 But someone else, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:01 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 54:01 And again, I don't ... I don't want anybody to reach that conclusion. I have no idea what his substantial assistance entailed. None.

Joe Rogan 54:09 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 54:10 Um, and-

Joe Rogan 54:10 But that's a slippery slope.

Jeff Novitzky 54:11 It is a slippery slope. And look, transparency is important in any program, but, you know, only to a certain level. Look, if you were transparent about what everyone's, you know, cooperation or substantial assistance was and the whole world knew about it, you're never going to get anybody after that coming in and- and- and- and cooperating. I saw this definitely on the criminal side with, you know, informants. You don't ... That's not something that's- that you want to be transparent about or disclose.

Joe Rogan 54:39 Right. But there's going to be a bunch of people that have a, a real issue with that. The idea that Jon Jones, you know, one of the greatest fighters of all time, was actually working as an informant.

Jeff Novitzky 54:49 I mean, it's, it's listed in the, in the ... you know, in McLaren's ruling that that was one of the reasons for-

Joe Rogan 54:54 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 54:54 ... the- the mitigating factor in the reduction. But I don't ... Again, Joe, I'm- I'm telling you-

Joe Rogan 54:57 Right. Since neither you nor I have any information-

Jeff Novitzky 54:59 ... I know nothing about it.

Joe Rogan 54:59 ... we should just leave that alone.

Jeff Novitzky 55:00 Nothing about it.

Joe Rogan 55:01 And it's been stated. We know what it is. Okay. Or- or we know that it's a thing. Um, when it comes to the- Jon's initial test where he was sanctioned and was, uh, suspended for a determined period of time, Frank Mir also was sanctioned and-

Jeff Novitzky 55:19 He was.

Joe Rogan 55:19 ... for a determined period of time as well.

Jeff Novitzky 55:21 He was two years.

Joe Rogan 55:22 He was two years.

Jeff Novitzky 55:22 Um, Frank-

Joe Rogan 55:23 Jon was shorter than that-

Jeff Novitzky 55:24 Jon was shorter.

Joe Rogan 55:24 ... because Jon cooperated and-

Jeff Novitzky 55:25 Jon-

Joe Rogan 55:25 ... a bunch of other deal- details.

Jeff Novitzky 55:26 T- two things. He- he- he not only cooperated, he went to arbitration and put on a defense. He put on a defense that, "Look, the evidence here shows no intentional ingestion of it." And in fact, McLaren gave him a further reduction based on there was no evidence that this was intentionally done. Frank Mir didn't put on any d- ... He had every right to go to arbitration, put on his own defense.

Joe Rogan 55:48 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 55:48 Didn't do that.

Joe Rogan 55:49 What about Josh Barnett?

Jeff Novitzky 55:50 Uh, Josh Barnett, you know, completely different set of facts. His came from a contaminated supplement. It was a different substance.... he went to an arbitration hearing, the arbitrator ruled with Josh and said, "Yep. You know, based on where we are now, based on the care and effort that you took, you're right. You deserve to- th- to have time served at the time of that arbitration." So again, I think that's a good example of the checks and balances in place here. You've got me overseeing the program, taking a look at how these things come out. You've got the ability from the athlete to go to McLaren's group and judge, you know, the set of facts. And in that case, McLaren's group said, "USADA, I think maybe you overreached a little bit here." And j- I believe Josh and Josh is, you know, basically time served. So, you know, you wanna see a ... You wanna see them get it perfect right every time, but you know, in the reality, in the real world is that doesn't necessarily happen and that's why you have these checks and balances available.

Joe Rogan 56:49 Um, Josh Barnett's take on the matter is that they tried to paint him as guilty even though he was not, and that he, he feels like he definitely got a bad deal and that he was labeled as someone who was taking this substance. He was suspended for a long period of time-

Jeff Novitzky 57:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:05 ... while he was going through this. And although he was found not guilty, that he feels like not enough emphasis was g- p- put into establishing that he was not guilty and that, you know, he, he feels like they chased him down over something that he didn't do.

Jeff Novitzky 57:20 Yeah. I mean, well, well here's what he did do, is he used a supplement that if he would have listened to anything that we educate on, that USADA sends out regular reminders. Our fighters are required on a quarterly basis to go through videos and their whereabouts filing that deals with these issues. If he would have followed any of that advice when it came to his supplement choices, he would have never chosen the supplement he used. I ... You know, when, when I heard about that supplement and what was on the label and how it was marketed, I said, "Okay, well that's, that's likely the candidate of where it came from."

Joe Rogan 57:52 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 57:53 So I mean, the analysis would be, "Hey, you know, that pool, be careful. There's sharks swimming in that pool. They can eat you." And the person jumps in the water anyway saying like, "I didn't wanna get eaten by a shark." But a shark comes up and, and ate them. It's like, "Hey, w- we told you that this was the case. You didn't follow that." Now, there also needs to be a differentiation between someone who's intentional cheating, intentionally cheating, and someone that's just, you know, makes a naive supplement choice. There, there needs to be a differentiation between that, and there was in that case. Josh didn't get, you know, the full penalty of what was ... what that substance, you know, would have rendered.

Joe Rogan 58:30 But he did have to go through a long period of time where he was unable to fight.

Jeff Novitzky 58:34 He did, but you know, again, he had the prohibited substance in his body. Um, USADA has to look at, "Hey, even though you did th- didn't do that on purpose, did that give you a performance-enhancing benefit? Did it allow you to recover a little bit better? Did it make you a little bit stronger?" And you know, that's why those strict liability provisions are in there.

Joe Rogan 58:54 Otherwise, people would just take these prohibited supplements and say, "Oh, I didn't know."

Jeff Novitzky 58:57 Exactly. Just-

Joe Rogan 58:58 "It was an accident."

Jeff Novitzky 58:59 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 58:59 And meanwhile they're getting a benefit from it.

Jeff Novitzky 59:00 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 59:01 So they have to have some sort of penalty in place.

Jeff Novitzky 59:04 I think so.

Joe Rogan 59:05 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 59:05 Now, I also think that, again, there needs to be a, a differentiation between the intentional and non-intentional, and we do have that in our policy. There are definitely mitigating factors available in our policy that if you didn't do a thing on purpose, you're not, you know, you're not sanctioned as high. Tim Means is a great example there.

Joe Rogan 59:21 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 59:22 So Tim Means used a relatively benign supplement. It was a creatine. Creatine, you know, generally doesn't have an issue as, as, as opposed like testosterone booster supplements. We tell our athletes, "Stay away from anything marketing as a testosterone booster." It's one of the most common with contaminants or purposefully spiking, purposeful spikings. Tim Means uses a creatine. It had, uh, ostrine in it, a very small amount. Uh, we found it in there. You know, ostrine is a two-year sanction. He got six months, um, you know, so back relatively quickly. So I think that's-

Joe Rogan 59:57 Was the same thing with Yoel Romero?

Jeff Novitzky 1:00:00 So correct. Yoel Romero used a natural diuretic product that had, um, an SARM in it. Um, in all these cases, not only does the, the prohibited substance sh- need to show up and what the athlete has said they've used already to pr- but to protect against making sure the athlete isn't purposefully spiking it, USADA will go out on their own, on the market, independently procure hopefully the same lot of product. And in the case of Yoel and Tim, they were able to do that, test it completely independently of the athlete, determine what level the prohibited substance is in that based on the interview with the athlete of how much did you use, when's the last time you used it relative to this test, do the science calculations just to make sure an athlete's not saying, "Well, I know this creatine is spiked with ostrine, so I'm gonna go use ostrine and then I have a built-in excuse when I test positive for ostrine." In order to be able to match contaminant levels with what's being excreted in the urine, you would literally have to have PhD chemistry degree, and I'm not aware of, of any of our athletes having that. It'd be very, very difficult to do that.

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 And so these detection levels, again, we're talking about nanograms. We're not talking about large quantities that would-

Jeff Novitzky 1:01:11 Or picograms.

Joe Rogan 1:01:11 ... be picograms. Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 1:01:12 Correct.

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 Now what ... W- why was, why was this moved from Vegas to California and why, why did the California State Athletic Commission, why did they accept this fight taking place here and why did Vegas say no to it?

Jeff Novitzky 1:01:33 So internally, UFC wise, we first ... In fact, Donna Marcolini, who you know, who works with me, uh, we're kind of-

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 Shout-out to Donna.

Jeff Novitzky 1:01:41 Exactly. (laughs) We're a two-person shop and the woman's a hawk. She's one of the hardest workers I know.

Joe Rogan 1:01:46 Love her.

Jeff Novitzky 1:01:46 So she's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:46 She's awesome.

Jeff Novitzky 1:01:47 She's taking a look at something that we have access to called the Clearinghouse, and it's basically a recording of all the tests on our athletes. So we can get on there if somebody says, "Hey, how many times was Jon tested last quarter?" We can get on there and pull that up. The public also has access to our testing records, not with the specificity that the Clearinghouse has, but the public, uh, can get on and USADA on a weekly basis, um...... updates, how many tests an athlete's done. So there's some of these ... Some guys out there on the internet from the day one of the program have kept track of what week their numbers tick up. So you can go find spreadsheets on the internet, at least from a, from a weekly basis of when our athletes were tested and how many times every week.

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 God bless those dorks.

Jeff Novitzky 1:02:30 Crazy, huh?

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 1:02:32 So, the clearing house program is very specific. We can get on there and see the actual date of the collection, and next to that we see negative, positive, or pending. So Donna came to me late November, early December saying, "Hey, I'm looking at, you know, Jon's tests and I'm seeing pending still back from ..." I think it was maybe August, September. "You think something's going on here?" And of course I'm like, "Okay, well, he's fighting pretty soon. I, I hope not. But let me reach out to USADA." So I reach out to them. They said, "We're working on something. We're, you know, conducting a study. We're talking to other professional sports leagues. We're talking to the laboratories out there and don't have an answer for you now, but, but stand by." So I think it was Sept- uh, December 6th they sent a letter to us, and they sent a letter to the Nevada State Athletic Commission saying, "Just so you're aware, over the last six months, um, early in this six months, we've seen a reemergence of this long-term metabolite, uh, in Jon's samples. We've als-"

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 So when was this?

Jeff Novitzky 1:03:36 So this was early December, December 6th-

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 1:03:38 ... um, we and the Nevada Athletic Commission were notified.

Joe Rogan 1:03:41 You were notified, but the test was from previous?

Jeff Novitzky 1:03:44 Just ... So the tests, these tests, um, covered from August through November-

Joe Rogan 1:03:53 Okay. So there's more than one test.

Jeff Novitzky 1:03:55 ... of 2018. Several of them.

Joe Rogan 1:03:56 Oh. So more than one test showed this metabolite.

Jeff Novitzky 1:03:59 So what they said was August 9th, negative. August 29th, eight picograms.

Joe Rogan 1:04:06 Eight.

Jeff Novitzky 1:04:06 September 18th.

Joe Rogan 1:04:07 Eight.

Jeff Novitzky 1:04:07 Eight. September 18th. So, I mean, there's a, there's a good ... So he's negative on the 9th. 20 days later, so inside-

Joe Rogan 1:04:15 The 22-day window.

Jeff Novitzky 1:04:16 ... Prochenkov's 22-day window, he shows an eight picogram, no short-term metabolites, no long-term-

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 No medium.

Jeff Novitzky 1:04:23 ... no parent.

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 No medium-term, you mean.

Jeff Novitzky 1:04:24 No medium. I'm sorry.

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 The long-term.

Jeff Novitzky 1:04:25 No medium. Only long-term. Thank you. Um, we then go to the 18th of September, 19 picograms. And then that's followed by four negative tests. September 21st, October 2nd, October 11th, and November 14th. So at this point, late November, early December, USADA says, "Okay. We've done our studying. Those two low levels in August are residual. There's no evidence of any re-administration based on lack of short and medium-term and parent. Um, based on our consultation with other leagues, with these labs that are seeing this, we're calling this ... This is, would be double jeopardy if we did them again."

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 Okay. So this is also-

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:08 All evidence points to him.

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 This is something that should be really emphasized, because there's a lot of people that don't understand this. This is not just this one test. These are many tests that have been done over the course of Jon's suspension and then ultimately relicensing that are showing this exact same metabolite-

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:24 Correct.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 ... at a very similar level that, according to previous tests, specifically on clomiphene, that this could be this pulsing-

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:32 Correct.

Joe Rogan 1:05:32 ... result of, uh, existing and not existing.

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:35 Correct.

Joe Rogan 1:05:35 But this is not indicative, in any way that can be provable, of micro-dosing.

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:41 Correct.

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 And not only that, but this is over ... We're talking about this being over long-term, long periods of time.

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:48 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:05:48 Many months.

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:49 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:05:50 Okay. And consistent numbers-

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:52 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:05:52 ... over many months.

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:53 Yes. So-

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:54 And again, going back to, to what, uh, one expert, Dr. Bauer said, you've got to be care- ... When you're talking about-

Joe Rogan 1:06:00 Insanely small numbers.

Jeff Novitzky 1:06:00 ... single, double picograms-

Joe Rogan 1:06:02 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 1:06:02 ... and you see some variance, you got to be careful about saying, "Well, it went from nine to 18. That means re-administration." No. It's inexact science at that level. The WADA labs ... This is a non-threshold substance. So alls WADA requires them to say, to report back to WADA, positive or negative. They're not required to quantify. However, these WADA labs have also realized there's an issue when you're getting down to picograms. So what they're doing is going back after reporting the positive. "Hey, let's see if we can estimate what this level is." It's an inexact science, that picogram quantities, in my understanding, um, to, you know, estimate what those levels are.

Joe Rogan 1:06:41 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 1:06:41 And we can see some variations.

Joe Rogan 1:06:42 So Nevada is unwilling to sanction the fight based on all this information?

Jeff Novitzky 1:06:49 So they get, they get the initial notice that we got also. I think it was December 6th saying, "Look, there was an issue in, in August. These long-term metabolites reappeared again, but we've since had four negative tests. We don't believe that the August, you know, reappearance is a re-administration. There's no sanction here." Nevada, you don't even have jurisdiction over the August tests. Again, keep in mind, these are UFC tests. Nevada doesn't mandate it. But Nevada says, "Look, closer to a fight, we do take jurisdiction. We will adopt these USADA tests." So USADA didn't need to, to, to notify. They thought, "Out of an abundance of caution, let's let Nevada know that this issue exists."

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 Goddamn, USADA. What the fuck?

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:31 So they said-

Joe Rogan 1:07:31 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:31 But, hey, wait. That's, that's all good. And you saw-

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 It's good. I get it.

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:33 Nevada gets this.

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:35 I talk with them. They're like, "Whoa, this is-"

Joe Rogan 1:07:37 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:37 "This is concerning, but we don't see anything within our jurisdiction here. So I certainly hope that no subsequent tests show up positive, because that could be an issue." And sure enough, USADA collects a sample from Jon on 12/9. They expedited the results 'cause they knew a fight was coming up, and they do that now when fights are close, or the collections are done close to a fight. And here, you know, he pulses back up to, uh, you know, between 60 and 80 picograms. So Nevada gets this. Uh, this was last week, man. The days have run together for me.So, uh, a week ago Friday, we have in, uh, Bob Bennett, who's the executive director.

Joe Rogan 1:08:17 Who I'm a big fan of.

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:18 He's a great guy.

Joe Rogan 1:08:19 I should say, I talked shit about Nevada-

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:20 Former-

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 ... but I really like Bob.

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:21 ... former FBI agent, so we've got-

Joe Rogan 1:08:22 And he doesn't-

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:23 ... a ton in common.

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 ... fuck around.

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:23 He is-

Joe Rogan 1:08:24 I mean, he's-

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:25 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 ... the, the, one of the reasons why it probably wasn't sanctioned in Nevada was because they're so by the book. I get angry because I wanted the fight to be in Nevada, but-

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:32 ... I understand Bob's position.

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:34 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 Implicitly.

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:35 So, so let me make clear what happened. Bob came in. Anthony Marnell, the chairman of the commission came in, and a couple representatives from thest- Nevada Attorney General's Office. So, they are the ones that prosecute and, you know, cases involving PED use that violates Nevada regs. So we share all this with them. And look-

Joe Rogan 1:08:54 Like this, like you did with me.

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:55 Correct.

Joe Rogan 1:08:55 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:55 Share it all with them. And look, there's some misconception out there. They did not say, "This fight's absolutely not happening next week." In fact, they, I think, were understanding these issues, but said, "Look, you know, optically this doesn't look great, and we feel that out of an abundance of caution, that we need to have a public hearing and, and be very transparent about this 'cause this is, this is some weird shit." Um, this was last Friday, so we're eight days out from the fight, so, you know, we start talking about, "Hey, when can we potentially have this?" And unfortunately, Christmas holiday, several of the commissioners weren't even in town, and basically what they said is, "Look, we will absolutely do this if you want us to, but likely that hearing would not be until today, Thursday, or maybe tomorrow, Friday." And, you know, Marnell's like, "Look, I, I, I'm starting to get my head around this, um, but I can't guarantee you that my other commissioners or me are gonna come out the same way. So you're taking, you know, you're taking a chance here that, that we could say, 'Well, we need more information.'" So, so basically, they were willing to listen to it. Um, I think they were starting to wrap their heads around it, but didn't feel that they were up to speed enough on it. Um, they didn't have the luxury that Andy Foster and California have. Remember, when Jon tested positive in July 2018, that fight was in California. Because that fight was in California, California retained jurisdiction. They've had two very public hearings on Jon when they suspended his license, and most recently, a week and a half ago when they reinstated his license. So, Andy and the commission were very familiar with the L-DOPA. They were very familiar with the long-term metabolite. And in fact, Andy was somewhat critical of USADA during the last hearing. He thought after looking at all the details, after reading, you know, McLaren's, uh, position that there was no evidence that this was done on purpose, he thought, "Man, maybe they went a little bit hard on him." And he stated that in that, in that second hearing. So, with the reemergence of the, the s- picogram quantity of this M3 long-term metabolite, Andy and the commission, unlike Nevada, didn't need to get up into speed on it. They've already had two public hearings on Jon's issue. They were intimately familiar with, you know, some of these dynamics of this drug and the metabolites. And, and that's why he felt comfortable based on their familiarization with it and based on these written absolute statements by these experts that there was no reingestion, one. And then the second thing, which we haven't covered, is these experts said based on these low-level picograms, there's no performance-enhancing benefit. And that's an important point because if you would've told UFC, "Look, this is still remnants from a year and a half ago, but we can't rule out that he's not getting a performance-enhancing benefit from it," well, in that instance, I'll tell you, and, you know, I, I stand by this, I would, I would leave this company if somebody told me otherwise. If there was any indication that there would be a benefit from him even though it technically wasn't a violation, I'm not gonna stand by while anybody licenses that guy to fight.

Joe Rogan 1:12:17 Could it been, could this have been somehow or another mitigated by communicating these results to Nevada earlier?

Jeff Novitzky 1:12:28 Well, we didn't announce the fight, that Jon was gonna fight in t- in Nevada until October.

Joe Rogan 1:12:33 But in October-

Jeff Novitzky 1:12:35 So-

Joe Rogan 1:12:35 ... could you have said, "Hey, look-"

Jeff Novitzky 1:12:36 And-

Joe Rogan 1:12:36 "... here's this issue."

Jeff Novitzky 1:12:37 Sure. Potentially. But-

Joe Rogan 1:12:39 But it's not-

Jeff Novitzky 1:12:39 ... the issue was USADA hadn't come to that. They were in the middle of that point-

Joe Rogan 1:12:44 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 1:12:44 ... of consulting with per- other professional sports leagues, with the other WADA labs. They hadn't reached their conclusion.

Joe Rogan 1:12:51 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 1:12:51 Their science expert hadn't determined, "Hey, this is definitely residual and no performance-enhancing." They were still going through that data at that point. So, what they've told me is, "Look, we, we tried to hurry that along as fast as possible, but we wanted to make sure that, that, you know, we went through this in very, very detailed and no stone left unturned."

Joe Rogan 1:13:09 When did they decide? When, when did they reach this conclusion?

Jeff Novitzky 1:13:12 This, so this was early December. So December 6th that letter went out saying, "We've had these two low-level positives back in August."

Joe Rogan 1:13:18 Well okay, but here we are. I mean-

Jeff Novitzky 1:13:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:13:20 ... this is the end of December. What c- couldn't this have been headed off at the pass?

Jeff Novitzky 1:13:25 Well, again, when Nevada first got notified, they thought, like we were hoping, "Well, he's had four negative tests, so he's probably gonna be negative going forward here."

Joe Rogan 1:13:35 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 1:13:35 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:13:35 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 1:13:35 I mean, that's what, you know, the layperson would think, "Okay, he's probably out of the woods now." But, you know, again, getting back to what period of time is this in Jon's preparation, and if you look at some of these numbers and when these metabolites appear and disappear, in early August, Jon was preparing his defense for this arbitration. I think he had an idea based on talking to his attorneys, like, "Hey, we got a pretty good shot here of some mitigating factors where this is potentially gonna get reduced." So I think, you know, he starts to get a little bit motivated, gets in the gym, starts training again, clearly in early December. That's the period of time when our fighters that close to a fight are bringing down that body weight, right?

Joe Rogan 1:14:17 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 1:14:17 They're cutting body fat, they're losing, you know, a little bit of water. So it certainly seems to correlate these, these, these pulsing, you know, effects with when-

Joe Rogan 1:14:26 This is just theoretical, right? That it's-

Jeff Novitzky 1:14:28 It is.

Joe Rogan 1:14:28 ... released in the-

Jeff Novitzky 1:14:28 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:14:28 ... adipose tissue.

Jeff Novitzky 1:14:29 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:14:30 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 1:14:30 It is.

Joe Rogan 1:14:30 So, uh, this positive result was announced when?

Jeff Novitzky 1:14:35 So, a week ago yesterday.Uh...

Joe Rogan 1:14:39 And this is USADA's announcement. So they-

Jeff Novitzky 1:14:41 USADA notifies us, the UFC.

Joe Rogan 1:14:43 Okay.

Jeff Novitzky 1:14:43 That always happens, and they notify if any commission has jurisdiction. At this point, this close to a fight, Nevada has jurisdiction. So, I get the call, and you can imagine what's going through my head. I mean, I- I've gotten so many of these calls now, I literally, for the first five or 10 minutes, can bury my head in my hand and think through exactly how this thing's gonna play out. And, you know, it's gonna be, hey, Nevada's gonna say, "Wait a second, what's going on here? We need to root this out." Jon's going to say, "Jesus Christ, like, what is going on in my life? I can't get a fucking break, I'm trying to be careful." I even went through what DC, how DC is gonna react, and he react, he's gonna be, "I fucking told you this was the case, this guy's a cheater. You know, USADA's bullshit, Novitzky's bullshit." All this stuff goes through my head in the first five or 10 minutes. What's ... How's Dana gonna react? How's Hunter gonna react when I have to go over to his office and explain this out to them? It played out exactly as I saw it. It's- it's- it's some of the worst days of my career when I get these calls. Um, but, you know, everyone was notified and, and Nevada was in our office two days later. A- and again, I mean, there's been some criticism of them out there. Um, I don't fault them. This is a complicated issue that optically doesn't look great, and to do anything in a rushed manner would be difficult. They did everything they could to afford us having a hearing. Um, problem was, it was just, it was too close to- to a fight. Um, and then...

Joe Rogan 1:16:15 So essentially y- to get this out th- th- this is the issue with optics, right? 'Cause it, you know, you go on Twitter, everybody's calling him a cheat, everybody's saying that, you know, "Anybody that sanctions this is, you're sanctioning cheating."

Jeff Novitzky 1:16:27 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 1:16:28 For someone to get an understanding of what this is like, it actually requires probably more than we've done now over the last hour and 15 minutes.

Jeff Novitzky 1:16:36 Yeah. And, uh, and I appreciate this forum. I mean, Dana and I went on SportsCenter and announced it in three-minute hit, and I came out of there going-

Joe Rogan 1:16:42 You can't...

Jeff Novitzky 1:16:43 ... "Absolutely everyone in the world is gonna say this is bullshit."

Joe Rogan 1:16:45 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 1:16:45 You can't.

Joe Rogan 1:16:47 This is like most things.

Jeff Novitzky 1:16:47 We're gonna have a hard time doing this in two hours here.

Joe Rogan 1:16:50 Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 1:16:50 This is...

Joe Rogan 1:16:50 Most things.

Jeff Novitzky 1:16:51 Yeah, you've got, you've got to delve into it, and you also have to put your trust and reliance on these experts. They have a education professional career of 20 to 25 years to come up with these absolutes. There's no one else in the world but a h- maybe a dozen people that can, that come up with these conclusions. You do have to put your, you know, your faith in, in their background and- and their careers and their knowledge and education. And, you know, I read what you, those absolutes were, that there was no evidence of any reingestion, this is by multiple, um, experts, and that Jon would not have retained any performance benefit based on these low-level picogram amounts.

Joe Rogan 1:17:30 Well, I'm happy that we're gonna have this out there so people, if they have the time, if they're really that interested in it, th- this is probably a more in-depth discussion of this than you're gonna get anywhere else. But I really wish we could've gotten something like this to Nevada, and Nevada could have gone over this. And looked at what- what I'm seeing and what you're saying, it seems to me that we could've just e- had some sort of a meeting and kept this fight in Nevada, and it would have saved everybody a lot of heartache.

Jeff Novitzky 1:17:57 Yeah, I mean, I- I think things were pointing in that, but there was no guarantees in that. Um...

Joe Rogan 1:18:02 Roll the dice, baby, it's Nevada.

Jeff Novitzky 1:18:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:18:03 Come on, it's Vegas.

Jeff Novitzky 1:18:05 You know, the other thing that was being looked at was, was fairness to these athletes.

Joe Rogan 1:18:09 Yes. The other athletes.

Jeff Novitzky 1:18:09 Really, you're gonna put, you're gonna put Jon and Gus, maybe more importantly, in a position where he doesn't know until two days or a day before whether this fight is happening or not. I mean, he's ... And- and not even mentioning the other fighters on the card, and look ...

Joe Rogan 1:18:24 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 1:18:24 You can talk to, and I have, to Sean and Mick and- and Dana and Hunter, all these fighters want to be on the big pay-per-views. They know the bigger the fight at the top of the card, the more eyes are on that fight. And when you have a spectacular fight in the first, second fight on the card, if it's on a big pay-per-view with a giant fight at the top of it, that can propel your career. Your next fight...

Joe Rogan 1:18:46 Yes.

Jeff Novitzky 1:18:46 ... you could be fighting the main event on, you know, Fight Pass and progress from there. So, I think, you know, I think it's accurate to say that generally everybody wants these- these cards to be as big as possible. And when all the experts are telling us, A, 100% this isn't a sanction, B, he's not retaining any performance-enhancing benefits, I think, and clearly Dane and Hunter thought this, we have an obligation to do what we can do for fairness for Jon, definitely for- for Gus, for the rest of the card, to try to make this fight happen.

Joe Rogan 1:19:18 Going forward, is there any way we could ever prevent something like this from happening again with a similar situation in a place like Nevada?

Jeff Novitzky 1:19:25 So here's ... I think we have a couple solutions to that, and it's not necessarily relative to the commission, but one thing that obviously protected Jon a lot in this was the