JRE MMA Show #59 with Kamaru Usman

1. 0:09 – 1:18

   Usman’s first JRE appearance and immediate life as new UFC champion

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      And we're live. What's up? How are you? (laughs)

   2. KUKamaru Usman0:11

      What's up, Joe? Man.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Dude, you're on a roller coaster ride. What is it like to f- be the champ? Oh. Well- What's the feeling like? This is fresh for you.

   4. KUKamaru Usman0:19

      Oh, well, first of all, I just wanna say, man, it's such an honor to be here. Um...

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      The honor's mine.

   6. KUKamaru Usman0:25

      I never... I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be honest. I'm, I'm, my thing is I'm just gonna be, like, 100% totally transparent. I was never... I never really watched this show. I never really kind of heard of this show. Of course I heard of you a- and all the things you do. I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that Fear Factor guy."

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:41

      (laughs)

   8. KUKamaru Usman0:41

      You know? But I never really heard of this show until, like, after a, like, a fight or two in the UFC and people are, like, tagging me and shit. Like, "Yo, Joe Rogan's talking about you." "Joe Rogan talked about you on the podcast." I'm like, "Fucking podcasts?" 'Cause I never listened to podcasts at the time. Was like, "Who the f-... What are you talking about?" 'Til I finally started listening. I'm like, "Oh, this dude is for real."

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:01

      (laughs)

   10. KUKamaru Usman1:01

       "This dude got some sh- some, some pull. He got some people watching this shit."

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       (laughs)

   12. KUKamaru Usman1:06

       Random people would tag me. "Oh, Joe was talking about you today on the podcast." I'm like, "Oh, man. This guy's for real." And then n- every time after that that I see you, I'm like, "What's up, Joe?" (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       (laughs)

   14. KUKamaru Usman1:18

       (laughs)

2. 1:18 – 4:53

   How MMA evolved: from early UFC tournaments to today’s elite athletes

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:18

      Yeah, we've been talking about you for a long time, man. We were just w- with your friend out there. We were watching a video of us talking about you back when you were ranked number 12th. And I was saying, "I think you could fight for the title right now."

   2. KUKamaru Usman1:28

      Yeah, man. That, um... And I, I, I, I like to attest it to. I think... 'Cause I went back once I started kind of researching you. I, I like to go back and do a little research. And I'm like, "Fucking Joe's been with this, this sport for the beginning." Like, you were in the back with Hare 1977, yeah. ... (laughs) with Hare, he with Hare freaking interviewing the guys y- that were doi- during the tournament that were fighting multiple fights a night.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:53

      Mm-hmm.

   4. KUKamaru Usman1:54

      And you were interviewing those guys and I was like, "That... Even back then, Joe had skills. Joe was a beast at interviewing these guys." There was no shaking behind it, 'cause I... You know, one thing about me, I've gotten into com- uh, commentating and things like that now, and I'm like, "Dang, Joe, he didn't seem nervous. You were just, like, a freaking natural at it." And the sport was just growing at that time. I was like, "Man, there was Well, there, there was nobody watching back then. It wa- wasn't as much pressure, you know? It wasn't like coming into it today- Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:19

      ... ESPN, pay-per-view, all that deal. It would be a lot of pressure. But back then, it was just fun. I mean-

   6. KUKamaru Usman2:25

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:25

      ... it was, it was weird, man. The first one I did was in Dothan, Alabama, in this weird, like... It wa- I don't know if it was a high school gym or something, uh, some small auditorium, tiny little place. It was very weird.

   8. KUKamaru Usman2:37

      Yeah, but you made it look like a freaking cert- little walk in the park. I mean, it was... I was like, "Damn, Joe's good at this. Joe's been doing this shit for a while."

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:45

      Well, it's, uh, it's an interesting thing to see, you know, to see it progress from 1997 to where it's at in 2019. The biggest difference is not just, uh, the amount of eyes that it gets and the amount of people that are paying attention to. The real difference is the level of athlete. It's a d- it's a giant, giant leap, like, in no other sport. I don't think there's another sport from 1993 to 2019 where the athletes are almost... It's almost unrecognizable how much better the fighters are.

   10. KUKamaru Usman3:14

       Absolutely. Uh, you know, there... It's... Now, back in the day, it was like, okay, you finished your college career. You finished all this. You've got to the height of whatever, you know, sport you could be. Let's start fighting. And so guys were coming in at 28, 27, starting to learn the s- the tricks. Now you got freaking 10-year-old kids-

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:36

       Yup.

   12. KUKamaru Usman3:36

       ... sparring.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:37

       Yeah.

   14. KUKamaru Usman3:38

       There's all these crazy videos of, like, little bitty kids fighting in, like, Russia or other places. Like, they're full on MMA fighting now.

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:45

       Yeah. It's a totally different world.

   16. KUKamaru Usman3:46

       It's like, yeah, whole promotion. I'm like, I mean, by the time these guys get to 16, 17, they're gonna be killers.

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:52

       Yeah, but if you go back and watch, like, a boxing match from, like, '93, a bo- a world champion boxer, like Marvin Hagler, perfect example. Marvin Hagler from the '80s could absolutely hang with middleweights, uh, like, he's... He would fit right in with world champions today.

   18. KUKamaru Usman4:08

       Absolutely.

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:09

       But a, a UFC champ from '93, I mean, god, it's just not the same. It's not by any stretch. It's, it is such a... Back then, it was like a b- it was wild, it was crazy, but nobody had endurance. And you know, there was a few guys that had some skill and certainly, like Orvan- Orlando Veit-

   20. KUKamaru Usman4:25

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:25

       ... or Royce Gracie. There was... Guys were really good at their individual arts, but there was no real complete fighters yet.

   22. KUKamaru Usman4:33

       Yeah. You got the transition because it was... Everyone came in with their special skills and that was-

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:38

       Mm-hmm.

   24. KUKamaru Usman4:38

       ... that was a big thing. I think UFC even sold that as, "Oh yeah, you got the wrestler-

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:42

       Yeah.

   26. KUKamaru Usman4:42

       ... fighting the com- the combo." The, the-

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:45

       Yeah.

   28. KUKamaru Usman4:45

       ... you know, sambo guy and the jujitsu guy and the... So that was the thing. Everyone came in with their one skill and they put it to the test to see which skill-

3. 4:53 – 6:45

   Usman’s first exposure to UFC: visiting Jon Jones in 2005

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:53

      When did you start watching?

   2. KUKamaru Usman4:55

      ... is better. It's, it's freaking crazy, Joe. My first fight, first time I ever watched a UFC fight, I was visiting Jon Jones in college, freshman year. This was our, our, our freshman year, true freshman year. I was visiting him 'cause I went to a, a small school, Univer- William, William Penn University, which was about two hours away from him, and he was at Iowa Central in Fort Dodge, Iowa. So I went to go spend my fall break a whole week with him, just hanging out 'cause we had met the previous year in high school and just... You know, it was two brothers in wrestling. It was like, "Hey," two brothers, "what's up, man?"

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:29

      (laughs)

   4. KUKamaru Usman5:29

      "Where you going to school next year?" He's like, "I'ma be at Iowa." I was like, "Yo, me too." And so we kept in touch and I went up to hang out with him, and during that week, it was a fight on. Someone, like a friend of the team, something like that, invited us to come to his house and watch it. And we went over there to watch the fights. I never really heard of it. I never really cared. I was just a freshman just trying to hang out with Jon and party.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:53

      What year was this around?

   6. KUKamaru Usman5:54

      This was 2005.

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:56

      2005.

   8. KUKamaru Usman5:56

      I think. Yeah, 2005.

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:57

      So this is, like, first season of The Ultimate Fighter?

   10. KUKamaru Usman5:59

       Yeah.... 2005. So, we goin', I think it might've been Randy Couture or someone, John just reminded me but I forgot who it was fighting. And we went to the house party and watched it. I really didn't really remember the fight. I, 'cause I didn't really care, I never paid attention to it. I never thought I would ever do something like that, so I just watched it and, and then I remember the guy saying, "Hey man, you guys can do this. Why don't you guys try this?" And I was like, me- uh, me and John kind of looked at each other like, "Hell no, ain't no way we gonna do that shit."

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:29

       (laughs)

   12. KUKamaru Usman6:29

       You know? (laughs) Wrestling is controlled, you know, there's rules, w- you know, certain things you can or can't do. There's no way we're doing that. So we kinda laughed it off and, and left that day. Never knew that I, freaking years later, I would be doing this, doing this for it.

4. 6:45 – 12:08

   Dethroning Tyron Woodley and the emotional backstage moment with Woodley’s mom

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:45

      Not just doing it, you dethroned the guy who many people, including me, were saying as a, is a very good argument for the best welterweight ever. I felt like Tyron, is like, you gotta give it, there's like two, there's legendary status, right? There's like, Matt Hughes has legendary status for being the original. He was one of the first wrestlers who really knew how to submit guys. And then Georges St-Pierre was, of course, i- many people's eyes, the greatest of all time in the welterweight division. Went on this long run. But I was like, man, when you, if Tyron beats Usman, I was like, there's a real good argument for him being number one of all time. Beating Wonderboy, beat, smashing Darren Till, beating Demian Maia, knocking out Robbie Lawler to win the title, you know?

   2. KUKamaru Usman7:29

      Absolutely. I considered him. I, I put him in that conversation.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:31

      Yeah. He's in that conversation for sure.

   4. KUKamaru Usman7:33

      For s- for sure. I put him in that conversation. I've, you know, nothing but respect for Tyron. I mean-

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:39

      It was nice to see afterwards, it was, there's a video of you and Tyron's mom, and Tyron and Tyron's mom afterward. It was a beautiful video, man.

   6. KUKamaru Usman7:46

      Yeah, man. I, um-

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:47

      It's a tearjerker.

   8. KUKamaru Usman7:49

      I, I freaking, I, I let it go, 'cause I'm one of those guys, I never really sit and, and stop and smell the roses and things like that. I always, I always have a chip on my shoulder. And I'll explain why that is, but I, I always had this chip on my shoulder with everything that I do. So, I never really sit and celebrate and say, "Oh yeah, I accomplished this," or, "I did that or did that." But I had known, I'd known his mom. I, I met her previously to, to that, the fights. I fought in St. Louis one time, and of course I'd seen her several times at his fights, but I was fighting in St. Louis and I was there early, and she was at the hotel. Tyron wasn't fighting or anything, but she just came to the hotel, I think she was just hanging out. And I got to sit with her before like, all the fighters even came into town, I had to sit with her. I think we sat for a couple of hours, maybe three, four hours just talking. I got to know her and she was, she was just such an angel, but at the same time, she's, she's a gangster too, like you k-

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:50

      (laughs)

   10. KUKamaru Usman8:50

       ... you can't, you know, she, she was everything and the only thing, the biggest thing I could compare her to is, if you ever seen that show from way back, it's called Touched by an Angel.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:01

       Mm-hmm.

   12. KUKamaru Usman9:01

       And, uh, I forget what her name is, she's like this famous, like, Black actress, and, um-

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:05

       Do you remember that woman's name? Adele... what is it?

   14. KUKamaru Usman9:07

       I, I, I forget her name.

   15. NANarrator9:08

       May Angelou, I believe.

   16. JRJoe Rogan9:08

       What is it?

   17. NANarrator9:09

       It was Maya Angelou.

   18. JRJoe Rogan9:10

       It was it?

   19. NANarrator9:10

       Wasn't it?

   20. KUKamaru Usman9:10

       It was, I thought... No, it wasn't Maya Angelou. It was that, like, I mean she was at Maya Angelou status how big that she was and inspirational, but that's kinda what I compare her to.

   21. NANarrator9:19

       That's cool.

   22. KUKamaru Usman9:19

       And so we got, we got cl- w- you know, I knew her, and Tyron obviously wasn't who I would've chosen to take the belt from. But, it was how long could you hold yourself back? Because being a cha- there's a huge, and Tyron said it himself, there's a huge difference between being a challenger and a champion.

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:36

       Yeah.

   24. KUKamaru Usman9:37

       And of course-

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:38

       Bra him.

   26. KUKamaru Usman9:38

       ... I, I need, I needed to have my family in that, that argument.

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:42

       Yeah.

   28. KUKamaru Usman9:42

       I, I need, I need to get them to that status to where now I'm setting my daughter up and I'm setting-

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:47

       Yeah.

   30. KUKamaru Usman9:48

       ... my, my, everyone up for, you know, life, better life forever, and I couldn't continue to hold that back. So, yeah, it was unfortunate that I had to take that from him, and I kinda, in a sense I felt like I was taking away from what he was doing for them. So when I saw her walking backstage, I just couldn't control it. I just let my, I just let go and I just couldn't help but cry on her shoulders.
5. 12:08 – 19:04

   The ‘trash talk era’: marketing pressure, authenticity, and Colby Covington as a heel

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:08

      People love that, man. They love when people put all that bullshit aside. (clears throat) I mean, you guys had a lot of trash talk at the press conferences and there was a lot of that going on. But that sells tickets and it's good for everybody, and it's, it's natural and normal. But after it was over, the, it was nothing but respect. And it's what a lot of people think is wrong about the trash talk of this era.

   2. KUKamaru Usman12:31

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:31

      'Cause there's, this is a, there's an era right now, right?

   4. KUKamaru Usman12:34

      Yeah. Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:34

      This is, we're in the trash talk era.

   6. KUKamaru Usman12:36

      Absolutely.

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:36

      And some people are really good at it, and some people are terrible at it. (coughs) But it seems like everybody's trying. I mean, Masvidal, um, re- recently, when he just beat Darren Till, it was, uh, very interesting because, you know, his take on it before the fight was, "Why am I, why, why trash talk? Like, what are we doing? What are we, you know, why... We're gonna fight. Like, what is all this bullshit about?" Like, he doesn't like it. He was like, "I, I don't like wh- where this is going. I don't like where the sport is going."

   8. KUKamaru Usman13:01

      Yeah, I mean, it was, it's one of those things that I had to adjust to.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:05

      Mm-hmm.

   10. KUKamaru Usman13:06

       Because I wasn't brought on those principles. I don't, I'm not, you know, I wasn't-

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:09

       You're a competitor.

   12. KUKamaru Usman13:09

       ... I'm not here... Yeah, I wasn't here for a salesman.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:12

       Right.

   14. KUKamaru Usman13:12

       Like, people ask me all the time, "Why do you do this?" And I chose to do this. Like, I'm college-educated. I can get a fucking job a- and, and sit in an office a- and, and punch numbers and all that. But I chose to do this because of my burning desire to compete. That's when I... Even now, when I compete with guys, I'm not competing angry. I don't wanna kill this guy. I'm not rah, rah, rahing all that shit. No, it's competition for me. My mind is, "I'm gonna beat you." And which is partially, which, which goes to attested to how I fight and how I compete. I- I'm not like that. This is not the only thing that I can do. And so, this era came about where now everybody, you gotta talk shit, you gotta sell, you gotta do this and do that. And so...

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:56

       Do you feel any pressure to do that?

   16. KUKamaru Usman13:59

       I- initially, at some point I did because it was, um, I was fighting the way I was fighting. I was dominating guys and I was getting nowhere.

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:07

       Right.

   18. KUKamaru Usman14:08

       It was like, no notoriety. They were kind of like, just kind of putting you on the wayside. They would always tell me, "Oh, you'll get a top 10 guy. You'll get a top 10 guy." But it wouldn't happen. It was like, "Oh, you, you fight this guy." And you can't really argue with them because this promotion is giving you the opportunity to even really make money at all for the career path that you've chose. So, for a, for a while I just felt like, "Man, this is not w- I guess I just gotta do this." Because you saw it. The other clown, Covington, he had to do that. He absolutely had...

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:37

       Yeah.

   20. KUKamaru Usman14:37

       Nothing has changed with the way that he fights. He's done the exact same thing since he'd been in the UFC. But after the first couple fights, no one gave a shit. So he felt, "You know what? No, I'm just gonna have to start doing this."

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:48

       Right.

   22. KUKamaru Usman14:48

       Everyone knows it's fake-

   23. JRJoe Rogan14:50

       Right.

   24. KUKamaru Usman14:51

       ... because he just one day woke up and started doing it. And that's, that's the thing now. You have to do... People try to say, "You have to do that." But for me, is, what I'm not gonna do is, I'm not gonna just sell my soul just to, "Oh yeah, I'm just trying to earn a couple bucks." Because I- I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna do it the right way. George did it the right way. And, and, and I-

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:12

       Yeah.

   26. KUKamaru Usman15:12

       ... I'm a firm believer that when you do it the right way, you will earn what you deserve. It will come to you at some point.

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:18

       I don't think-

   28. KUKamaru Usman15:19

       And-

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:19

       ... that you have to. I really don't.

   30. KUKamaru Usman15:21

       Yeah, some, I mean, Colby Covington does because he, that dude freaking sucks.
6. 19:04 – 24:03

   Skill development: striking growth, Henry Hooft’s fundamentals, and fight IQ risk-reward

   1. JRJoe Rogan19:04

      The big change in your skill set from your first fight in the UFC to now is your striking. Your wrestling has always been outstanding. Your cardio has always been excellent. But your striking is much more fluid and much looser. You're, you, you're much more efficient now. It's, you was, you were always powerful, but it seems like now everything's fallen together. Like, you don't have any holes in your game anymore.

   2. KUKamaru Usman19:27

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan19:27

      It's a different thing.

   4. KUKamaru Usman19:28

      Yeah, Joe. Um, I've been with my, I've been with my same team since the start. The same guys that I've been with, um... Unfort- you know Glenn Robinson started our gym.

   5. JRJoe Rogan19:38

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KUKamaru Usman19:38

      Unfortunately, he passed away, you know. Rest in peace to Glenn, uh-

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:41

      When did he die? I didn't even know-

   8. KUKamaru Usman19:43

      He died, uh-

   9. JRJoe Rogan19:44

      ... he passed away.

   10. KUKamaru Usman19:44

       ... last year. Yeah, he died last year.

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:46

       I didn't even know.

   12. KUKamaru Usman19:47

       Yeah, I know. Yeah, he had a, a heart attack, man. And, um, it's, it was sad. I couldn't really believe that it happened, you know. But it did and, uh, I'd say he's in a better place, you know. But, um, yeah, he passed and he was a, he started all this, you know. Him and Rashad Evans.

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:02

       Mm-hmm.

   14. KUKamaru Usman20:03

       Rashad needed a new place when he was leaving Jackson's and, um-

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:06

       Right.

   16. KUKamaru Usman20:06

       And Glenn was kinda like, they, they got together and decided to, to start this. And so Rashad Evans, at the top of the game, who doesn't wanna train with Rashad Evans?

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:15

       Right.

   18. KUKamaru Usman20:15

       And so it kinda spread like wildfire, to where everyone started going down there. But, yeah, I, I've been with the same guy. Henry Hooft just came down at that time. Henry Hooft was the striking coach. I've been with him since, you know. And, um-

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:28

       He's a phenomenal coach too.

   20. KUKamaru Usman20:29

       A- amazing coach. I mean-

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:30

       Such a good striking coach. The, those, those Dutch fundamentals.

   22. KUKamaru Usman20:34

       Yeah. (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:34

       I mean, that guy's got it down.

   24. KUKamaru Usman20:35

       Yeah. And, and a lotta, you know, there's a, I've, I've seen a lot of different coaches, different styles. And I, you know, I like, I like a lot of different things. But the thing with Henry is he's, he's, he's very basic. Because at the end of the day, when you're fucking tired and, and you can't even hold your arms up and do certain things, you're just gonna do basic, regular shit.

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:56

       Yeah.

   26. KUKamaru Usman20:56

       It's j- ugh, jab.

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:58

       Right.

   28. KUKamaru Usman20:58

       Two. One, two. That's what you're gonna do.

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:00

       No, he's gonna keep it simple-

   30. KUKamaru Usman21:01

       And he's-
7. 24:03 – 26:14

   Weight cutting, diet strategy, and training smarter as the body ages

   1. JRJoe Rogan24:03

      Do you think there should be more weight classes?Well, you don't care. You're a champ.

   2. KUKamaru Usman24:06

      I don't, I don't ca- no-

   3. JRJoe Rogan24:07

      (laughs) I mean, 170 works for you.

   4. KUKamaru Usman24:09

      It, uh, it's still a hard cut.

   5. JRJoe Rogan24:11

      Is it? Where do you walk around at?

   6. KUKamaru Usman24:11

      No, it's hard for me. 190.

   7. JRJoe Rogan24:14

      Yeah, that's-

   8. KUKamaru Usman24:15

      180, 188 to 190.

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:17

      That's, believe it or not, like for most people that are listening to this, that's on the light side.

   10. KUKamaru Usman24:22

       Yeah, no, absolutely.

   11. JRJoe Rogan24:23

       Yeah.

   12. KUKamaru Usman24:23

       I know it is, but the thing is, I'm so lean and I'm 180 and I'm walking around below 6% body fat.

   13. JRJoe Rogan24:28

       Who do you... Oh, wow. Who do you use to cut, to, for weight cutting?

   14. KUKamaru Usman24:31

       Um, for the last couple of fights, man, I've been working with, uh, Clint, Clint Whittenburg up at the, uh, PI.

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:37

       Oh, the UFC performance center?

   16. KUKamaru Usman24:38

       And Trifecta. Yeah, and Trifecta.

   17. JRJoe Rogan24:39

       I like Clint a lot.

   18. KUKamaru Usman24:40

       Yeah, and Clint, man, Clint's the man.

   19. JRJoe Rogan24:42

       What is Trifecta?

   20. KUKamaru Usman24:42

       Trifecta Food System. Trifecta, they, they essentially, you know, the meal delivery, meal prep stuff.

   21. JRJoe Rogan24:47

       Oh, okay.

   22. KUKamaru Usman24:47

       And they, they do a phenomenal job. Phenomenal. And Clint, the reason I chose to go with him is I've always did it by myself. I like to cook. I, I cook for myself. I always... You know, when all those fights, earlier fights in the UFC, every one of my fights, I was in charge of my own diet. I cook for myself, I do this, because I've done it so many years in wrestling all the wrong way.

   23. JRJoe Rogan25:10

       Hmm.

   24. KUKamaru Usman25:11

       I can look at myself, I can wake up in the morning, look at myself in the mirror and tell how much I weigh and I'll be right on just because I'm so used to my body. So I know what I can or I can't eat, what, what can hold food, what can hold water. And it's just, it's a discipline thing for me as well. And so I, so I decided, you know what? I'm getting higher up now. One thing that I don't understand is, that I haven't done the research is, is what foods to eat before a certain practice at certain times to fuel me the best. To make me help, help me feel the best, 'cause I'm getting older and, and things aren't the same. They u- the way they used to be.

   25. JRJoe Rogan25:46

       How old are you now?

   26. KUKamaru Usman25:46

       I'm 31 and I'm gonna be 32 in May and I'm like, "Man, I just don't feel it."

   27. JRJoe Rogan25:51

       What, what differences have you noticed?

   28. KUKamaru Usman25:52

       A lot of difference.

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:54

       Yeah?

   30. KUKamaru Usman25:54

       Like at 24, I'd just fucking wake up at 6:00 AM and I can go for a freaking five-mile run like that with nothing. Now I can't do that anymore.
8. 26:14 – 36:13

   Injuries, surgeries, and fighting Woodley with a broken foot and double hernia

   1. KUKamaru Usman26:14

      I mean, wrestling years, I'm late 40s. I mean, back is, is shot. My, you know, my shoulders are shot. My kn- my knees. Oh my God, my knees. I've had five knee surgeries.

   2. JRJoe Rogan26:25

      Jesus Christ.

   3. KUKamaru Usman26:26

      Yeah, and-

   4. JRJoe Rogan26:26

      I saw you limping. Did you have one recently?

   5. KUKamaru Usman26:28

      I just had surgery. I actually, um, had surgery on Tuesday. Um-

   6. JRJoe Rogan26:32

      Oh, that's a hernia, right?

   7. KUKamaru Usman26:34

      Last Tuesday, I had a double hernia, yes.

   8. JRJoe Rogan26:35

      Jesus. So did you fight with a double hernia?

   9. KUKamaru Usman26:37

      Uh, I tore it before, like five weeks before the fight and, um, but I don't know if it was completely off.

   10. JRJoe Rogan26:44

       You had a hernia and a broken foot for that fight?

   11. KUKamaru Usman26:46

       Yeah, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan26:47

       That is fucking crazy.

   13. KUKamaru Usman26:48

       The funny thing is, and, and Ali makes fun of me about this, my manager, is, um, like all fight week, like if you saw me, you would think this guy was like a zombie. Like I, um, I limp around, I have freaking lichen patches on me and I'm in a boot or, or a sleeve. And, and all I do all day is I go do the media rounds or whatever I need to do, training, come back, and I'm just in my room either game ready on me or, or something on me. But when I walk through that door to fight, the Nigerian Nightmare wakes up. I flip the switch and a lot of people would, would... If they go back and look at videos of when I walk into the cage, I st- I step right before the cage, I pray, say my prayer for protection. And when I walk in, I just freaking turn. It's, it's like I flip that switch.

   14. JRJoe Rogan27:32

       Do you have a prayer that you say every time?

   15. KUKamaru Usman27:34

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan27:34

       You have the, the exact same thing?

   17. KUKamaru Usman27:36

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan27:36

       What do you say?

   19. KUKamaru Usman27:37

       Similar, along those lines. I ju- I basically, it's just a prayer for protection, prayer for me to be able to display the best of my abilities. It's never... I, 'cause I'm not selfish. It's not... I'm not getting in that prayer, "Please let me win." No, it, it's, "Please protect me in here so I can go back to my family safe and sound and protect my opponent as well. And give me the strength to be able to display the best of my abilities." And that's it. And once I freaking walk through that door, I am the freaking Nigerian Nightmare. I just, that's it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan28:11

       You feel like a different person-

   21. KUKamaru Usman28:12

       I am.

   22. JRJoe Rogan28:13

       ... when you walk onto the cage?

   23. KUKamaru Usman28:13

       I am. And you see it in my face. I'm, I'm good and dandy, but when I walk in, it goes away. I, I just, I transform into that person.

   24. JRJoe Rogan28:22

       Yeah, I think a lot of people would be surprised at how friendly and easygoing you are outside.

   25. KUKamaru Usman28:26

       People can't tell. And that's the thing now is there's really... I haven't, I don't, I don't, there's no change in me. I'm still the same freaking guy. I, since... I haven't done anything since the fight. Nothing. People are like asking me, "Have you gone out and partied," and this and that, "with the belt?"

   26. JRJoe Rogan28:40

       (laughs)

   27. KUKamaru Usman28:40

       No, I haven't done shit. (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan28:42

       You sleep with it?

   29. KUKamaru Usman28:43

       I... No, my daughter, I bought it for my daughter.

   30. JRJoe Rogan28:46

       Aw.
9. 36:13 – 41:20

   Cardio without running: hard training, threshold pushing, and the Woodley finishing surge

   1. KUKamaru Usman36:13

      And, and so I'm like, "Screw it." And, and the thing about me is I haven't ran in three years, Joe.I have not-

   2. JRJoe Rogan36:20

      Because of your knees?

   3. KUKamaru Usman36:20

      Yeah, my knees are so bad. I have not ran in three years.

   4. JRJoe Rogan36:22

      How the fuck do you have such good cardio? What are you doing for cardio?

   5. KUKamaru Usman36:24

      Oh, i- everything I do, I do freaking hard.

   6. JRJoe Rogan36:27

      I guess.

   7. KUKamaru Usman36:28

      I do it freaking hard. I'm on that air diet, and- and-

   8. JRJoe Rogan36:30

      Mm.

   9. KUKamaru Usman36:30

      ... man, shout out to my strength and conditioning coach, Dr. Cory Peacock. Man, he's also on it too. I mean, uh, Doc- Cory is, uh, we put in, we put in some time, man. And it's not just him, it's- it's my coaches. With Greg, Greg Jones, when we wrestle, we wrestle, I wrestle freaking hard. And when I- I can't do it often anymore, but I- I wrestle hard. When I hit pads-

   10. JRJoe Rogan36:51

       Because of your knees?

   11. KUKamaru Usman36:52

       Yeah, when I hit pads, I hit pads hard with him. Everything that I do, in my mind, I try to do it at the speed that I would want to do it in a fight-

   12. JRJoe Rogan37:00

       Right.

   13. KUKamaru Usman37:00

       ... or even greater, because my whole mentality is when you get tired, when people get tired, that's your threshold.

   14. JRJoe Rogan37:06

       Mm-hmm.

   15. KUKamaru Usman37:06

       That's where you're at, so that's why your body feels like that, "Oh, I'm tired. This is as far as I can go." I try to get to that as fast as possible, boom, because then everything after that is extra.

   16. JRJoe Rogan37:17

       Right.

   17. KUKamaru Usman37:17

       I just push, push that conditioning more and more and more. So I just freaking go hard. Everything that I do, I do it hard. Of course I do it smart, but I do it hard. But I haven't ran, Joe, in almost three years.

   18. JRJoe Rogan37:30

       That's crazy, because one of the most impressive things about the fight is you never let your foot off the gas, and in the fourth round I think it was when you had Tyron Hurt, when you really started pouring it on, I was like, "Okay, he's trying to finish this fight. How- how much gas is he gonna have left in the tank?" 'Cause you know that sometimes when someone tries to finish someone and they can't, they're done.

   19. KUKamaru Usman37:48

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan37:48

       You know? You poured it on, you took a couple of deep breaths then, tsh, right back on him. I'm like, "Damn, that's some serious fucking cardio."

   21. KUKamaru Usman37:56

       Yeah, Joe, I was- (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan37:57

       'Cause you were sprinting.

   23. KUKamaru Usman37:58

       My- my- I- I watched that back. I was like, "What the fuck was I doing?" I was swinging like wild- wild, man, just because I saw the light at the end of the tunnel.

   24. JRJoe Rogan38:07

       Yeah.

   25. KUKamaru Usman38:07

       And I was like, you know, and I'm- I'm- it's like I was sprinting towards it, but then it kind of get dimmer and dimmer. I was like, "Oh, shit, fuck. Slow down."

   26. JRJoe Rogan38:15

       Tyron's tough as fuck.

   27. KUKamaru Usman38:15

       "You're still gonna get there." Man, he was tough because-

   28. JRJoe Rogan38:18

       He's tough as fuck. He ate some big shots.

   29. KUKamaru Usman38:19

       Man, uh, people didn't really see it, what happened, what started that transition. We were in the clin- I had him in a- in a Thai clinch, and I think he was trying to work on my body, and I hit him with a knee, I hit him with another knee, and in my mind I just remember some of the trainings that I've been through. I'd been in that situation in training, and, uh, I used to train with, uh, Cosmo Alexandre.

   30. JRJoe Rogan38:41

       Mm.
10. 41:20 – 56:16

    ‘I’d rather break you than catch you’: domination mindset and lessons from his lone MMA loss

    1. KUKamaru Usman41:20

       To snap out of it, but that's the one thing, you- you never really give yourself enough credit with your game is, with my game is I feel like I, um, I put people in a- in a trance, in- in like a certain stage to where they're just no getting out of it. And I, and that- that's kind of been a knock on me. People are saying, "Oh, you're not finishing fights. You're not doing this. You're- you're not submitting guys. You're not knocking them out." This is my mentality on that, and it- and this has been since I was wrestling. As they were wrestling, you could pin guys really quick, do slick moves and pin guys. But then the guys would get up and say, "Oh, man, I never seen that move before. He caught me in a slick move, that's why he got me. Now, I'm- I'ma get him next time. I'ma do that. I'm gonna- I'ma get him." And the same thing with a fight, it's like, "Man, I had my hand down and he caught me sleeping, so he caught me with a shot. It was a lucky shot. He's not ever gonna do that shit to me. If I, next time I'm gonna get him." Or, "He caught me with a slick submission. I never seen that before. I'm gonna train for it next time and he's gonna, I'm- I'm stop him."My thing is, even in wrestling, what I always wanted to do is I wanted to tech fall guys in wrestling. And tech fall, what that means is, when you're beating someone w- by 15 points, you have a 15-point gap, they stop the match, because it's, uh, basically a skunk. Like you skunked this guy. Like he sucked. Uh, like you were beating him that bad, they had to stop it. That is my mentality. That is always what I strived for. And in 2011, I believe I l- uh, not 2011, 2009, I led the nation, division one, two and three, NAIA, or whatever, in tech falls. I think at one point me and Brent Metcalf was battling. Like every week I would look and see who had the most tech falls, and it w- it was me, it'd be him, it'd be me, him. And I had the most because that's m- was my goals. I wanted to skunk guys, because in their mind what it says is, "You can't fuck with that guy. There's, you can't hang with him. There was nothing you can do." It n- it didn't qu- it wasn't a quick pin, a lucky pin-

    2. NANarrator43:18

       Right.

    3. KUKamaru Usman43:18

       ... or, or this. Like he destroyed you. He just set levels apart, and that's what I do even in fighting now. I do the exact same thing, is I would much rather dominate you from start to finish. I wanna break you. I don't want, uh, when you think about fighting me again, it's not, you don't, I don't want you to, you, I want you to say, "Fuck. No, I don't, uh, sh- no. Shit, no. He, he beat me everywhere. He broke me. He took something from me." Because you're gonna think about... You only remember the fights you lose. You don't r- uh, like I've beaten so many guys in wrestling, I can't tell you, maybe 30 guys that I've beat in wrestling. I don't have no idea. But the ones you lose, you can almost tell everyone. And that's what my, my take on it. I wanna dominate you so bad, when you think about fighting me again, you don't. You say, "Fuck that. I'll pass on that fight." And so people are like, "Oh, man. This guy doesn't really finish guys," but how many guys want to fight me again? Not a lot of 'em.

    4. NANarrator44:13

       Do you have one loss in MMA?

    5. KUKamaru Usman44:15

       Yes, I do.

    6. NANarrator44:16

       One loss, right?

    7. KUKamaru Usman44:17

       Yeah, I have one loss.

    8. NANarrator44:17

       Who was it to?

    9. KUKamaru Usman44:17

       It was in my second fight. Um, uh, Caceres. I forget his name, uh, forget his first name. Um, it's the Cace- Jose... Is it Jose Caceres? His brother?

    10. NANarrator44:31

        Isn't it Alex Caceres?

    11. KUKamaru Usman44:32

        Alex, yeah, it's Jose Ca- his name's Jose Caceres. Alex Caceres-

    12. NANarrator44:35

        Is he Alex's brother?

    13. KUKamaru Usman44:36

        Old, I think it's older brother.

    14. NANarrator44:37

        Oh.

    15. KUKamaru Usman44:38

        Yeah. And, and, um, man, it was, uh, I took the fight on like, uh, two weeks notice or something like that, because it was like eight months in between, I fought my first fight and I thought, see that's the thing with m- with fighters coming into MMA now. This is a lesson to you guys. Everyone feels like, "Oh, I'm just gonna jump in and it's gonna be peachy. I'm gonna be getting fights every other week, every other month." N- no. So I fought my first fight and I thought, "Okay, this is great. My career is kickstarting. I'm gonna be doing fights never so often." I went through 20, like 22 opponents within my first fight before I got the second fight.

    16. NANarrator45:13

        Wow.

    17. KUKamaru Usman45:13

        Because now, you know, it's Google now. Everyone, f- "Oh, fuck."

    18. NANarrator45:16

        Right.

    19. KUKamaru Usman45:16

        "He's a national champion wrestler. Nah, I don't wanna fight that guy." 'Cause everyone wants to get to-

    20. NANarrator45:19

        Right.

    21. KUKamaru Usman45:19

        ... the UFC and they figure, oh, it's a best record. You wanna be undefeated to get to the UFC. So nobody wants to fight anyone that's hard.

    22. NANarrator45:26

        Right.

    23. KUKamaru Usman45:27

        And so of course at that point I was a wrestler. I could take anyone down and hold them down for three rounds and wouldn't fight. So everyone, no one wanted that fight. So it was months and months went by and then that fight came about and I was just like, "Shit, I'll take it." And I'ma be honest, I never grappled before that. I never did jujitsu. And so I figured, psh, I can wrestle my way through all this shit. Like man, fuck these guys. These guys are all low level guys. You know, look who I train with. I train with Rashad Evans and these guys.

    24. NANarrator45:56

        Mm-hmm.

    25. KUKamaru Usman45:56

        Those guys can't touch me. I get in the fight, I throw a one-two, his legs are there, like hit him with a one-two, boom, boom, double leg, like li- within 15 seconds. Boom, threw him down, full mount and I'm kinda throwing punches. I didn't really know what I was doing. I'm throwing punches and I'm trying to elbow him. And Jose Caceres is like, I think 6'2", 6'1", 6... I don't know. He's well taller than me. Long limbs. He throws his legs, I'm in full mount, he throws his legs around my body.

    26. NANarrator46:28

        Hmm.

    27. KUKamaru Usman46:29

        I never seen no shit like that before. (laughs)

    28. NANarrator46:31

        Right. (laughs)

    29. KUKamaru Usman46:33

        So (laughs) my mind at that time was like, "What is go- oh, shit. What, what's this shit?" I, I didn't even know what to do. So I'm like, uh, so I start kinda panicking in my mind. I don't know what to do. I'm like, "Fucking get out," which is what you don't do.

    30. NANarrator46:48

        Right.
11. 56:16 – 1:09:18

    UFC Performance Institute, elite training ecosystems, and teammate Francis Ngannou’s freakish power

    1. JRJoe Rogan56:16

       That UFC Performance Institute is amazing. It's just incredible what they did. I mean, when they were just talking about building that, I was like, "What is this gonna be? Like, what are they doing there? Oh, they're spending a lot of money."

    2. KUKamaru Usman56:25

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan56:26

       Who knows what the fuck it's gonna be. But then, uh, they took me on a tour of it and I was like, "This is literally the ultimate training facility."

    4. KUKamaru Usman56:32

       In 10 years, it is still be ye- up to date. It'll still be like-

    5. JRJoe Rogan56:37

       It's fucking incredible.

    6. KUKamaru Usman56:37

       ... "Okay, this thing is now catching up."

    7. JRJoe Rogan56:39

       They have napping pods. (laughs)

    8. KUKamaru Usman56:42

       Like, it's so far ahead. I know. I know. (laughs) They took me there. I was like, "Bro-

    9. JRJoe Rogan56:45

       They play some music in there.

    10. KUKamaru Usman56:46

        ... "I could just live here."

    11. JRJoe Rogan56:47

        Yeah, I know, right?

    12. KUKamaru Usman56:47

        You could literally live there.

    13. JRJoe Rogan56:49

        Well, a lot of people relocated to Vegas just to make that the center of their training.

    14. KUKamaru Usman56:52

        Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've seen-

    15. JRJoe Rogan56:53

        Yeah.

    16. KUKamaru Usman56:53

        ... like, Claudia Gadelha is down there.

    17. JRJoe Rogan56:55

        Mm-hmm.

    18. KUKamaru Usman56:55

        Um-

    19. JRJoe Rogan56:55

        Francis Ngannou did a lot of training.

    20. KUKamaru Usman56:57

        Francis Ngannou, of course.

    21. JRJoe Rogan56:57

        But he trained for his last fight in France, I believe.

    22. KUKamaru Usman57:01

        Yeah, his, his last two fights he did it in France.

    23. JRJoe Rogan57:03

        Mm-hmm.

    24. KUKamaru Usman57:05

        And, um... Yeah, we, we, you know, like, that's my boy. Like, we, we talk all the time and, um-

    25. JRJoe Rogan57:10

        That's the scariest heavyweight of all time.

    26. KUKamaru Usman57:12

        Like, I don't understand what people are... P- a lot of people, like, especially after those last couple fights, the Derrick Lewis fights, people were like, like, these fans, man. They were condemning him, like, "This guy is..." And, and-

    27. JRJoe Rogan57:26

        Yeah.

    28. KUKamaru Usman57:26

        And, and I g-

    29. JRJoe Rogan57:26

        But it's one of those things you just gotta give, you gotta give him time to recover from the Stipe fight.

    30. KUKamaru Usman57:31

        Yeah. (laughs)

Episode duration: 2:47:41