JRE MMA Show #59 with Kamaru Usman

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   And we're live. What's…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      And we're live. What's up? How are you? (laughs)

   2. KUKamaru Usman0:11

      What's up, Joe? Man.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Dude, you're on a roller coaster ride. What is it like to f- be the champ? Oh. Well- What's the feeling like? This is fresh for you.

   4. KUKamaru Usman0:19

      Oh, well, first of all, I just wanna say, man, it's such an honor to be here. Um...

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      The honor's mine.

   6. KUKamaru Usman0:25

      I never... I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be honest. I'm, I'm, my thing is I'm just gonna be, like, 100% totally transparent. I was never... I never really watched this show. I never really kind of heard of this show. Of course I heard of you a- and all the things you do. I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that Fear Factor guy."

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:41

      (laughs)

   8. KUKamaru Usman0:41

      You know? But I never really heard of this show until, like, after a, like, a fight or two in the UFC and people are, like, tagging me and shit. Like, "Yo, Joe Rogan's talking about you." "Joe Rogan talked about you on the podcast." I'm like, "Fucking podcasts?" 'Cause I never listened to podcasts at the time. Was like, "Who the f-... What are you talking about?" 'Til I finally started listening. I'm like, "Oh, this dude is for real."

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:01

      (laughs)

   10. KUKamaru Usman1:01

       "This dude got some sh- some, some pull. He got some people watching this shit."

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       (laughs)

   12. KUKamaru Usman1:06

       Random people would tag me. "Oh, Joe was talking about you today on the podcast." I'm like, "Oh, man. This guy's for real." And then n- every time after that that I see you, I'm like, "What's up, Joe?" (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       (laughs)

   14. KUKamaru Usman1:18

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       Yeah, we've been talking about you for a long time, man. We were just w- with your friend out there. We were watching a video of us talking about you back when you were ranked number 12th. And I was saying, "I think you could fight for the title right now."

   16. KUKamaru Usman1:28

       Yeah, man. That, um... And I, I, I, I like to attest it to. I think... 'Cause I went back once I started kind of researching you. I, I like to go back and do a little research. And I'm like, "Fucking Joe's been with this, this sport for the beginning." Like, you were in the back with Hare 1977, yeah. ... (laughs) with Hare, he with Hare freaking interviewing the guys y- that were doi- during the tournament that were fighting multiple fights a night.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:53

       Mm-hmm.

   18. KUKamaru Usman1:54

       And you were interviewing those guys and I was like, "That... Even back then, Joe had skills. Joe was a beast at interviewing these guys." There was no shaking behind it, 'cause I... You know, one thing about me, I've gotten into com- uh, commentating and things like that now, and I'm like, "Dang, Joe, he didn't seem nervous. You were just, like, a freaking natural at it." And the sport was just growing at that time. I was like, "Man, there was Well, there, there was nobody watching back then. It wa- wasn't as much pressure, you know? It wasn't like coming into it today- Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:19

       ... ESPN, pay-per-view, all that deal. It would be a lot of pressure. But back then, it was just fun. I mean-

   20. KUKamaru Usman2:25

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:25

       ... it was, it was weird, man. The first one I did was in Dothan, Alabama, in this weird, like... It wa- I don't know if it was a high school gym or something, uh, some small auditorium, tiny little place. It was very weird.

   22. KUKamaru Usman2:37

       Yeah, but you made it look like a freaking cert- little walk in the park. I mean, it was... I was like, "Damn, Joe's good at this. Joe's been doing this shit for a while."

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:45

       Well, it's, uh, it's an interesting thing to see, you know, to see it progress from 1997 to where it's at in 2019. The biggest difference is not just, uh, the amount of eyes that it gets and the amount of people that are paying attention to. The real difference is the level of athlete. It's a d- it's a giant, giant leap, like, in no other sport. I don't think there's another sport from 1993 to 2019 where the athletes are almost... It's almost unrecognizable how much better the fighters are.

   24. KUKamaru Usman3:14

       Absolutely. Uh, you know, there... It's... Now, back in the day, it was like, okay, you finished your college career. You finished all this. You've got to the height of whatever, you know, sport you could be. Let's start fighting. And so guys were coming in at 28, 27, starting to learn the s- the tricks. Now you got freaking 10-year-old kids-

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:36

       Yup.

   26. KUKamaru Usman3:36

       ... sparring.

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:37

       Yeah.

   28. KUKamaru Usman3:38

       There's all these crazy videos of, like, little bitty kids fighting in, like, Russia or other places. Like, they're full on MMA fighting now.

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:45

       Yeah. It's a totally different world.

   30. KUKamaru Usman3:46

       It's like, yeah, whole promotion. I'm like, I mean, by the time these guys get to 16, 17, they're gonna be killers.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. …

   1. KUKamaru Usman15:00

      me, is, what I'm not gonna do is, I'm not gonna just sell my soul just to, "Oh yeah, I'm just trying to earn a couple bucks." Because I- I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna do it the right way. George did it the right way. And, and, and I-

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:12

      Yeah.

   3. KUKamaru Usman15:12

      ... I'm a firm believer that when you do it the right way, you will earn what you deserve. It will come to you at some point.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:18

      I don't think-

   5. KUKamaru Usman15:19

      And-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:19

      ... that you have to. I really don't.

   7. KUKamaru Usman15:21

      Yeah, some, I mean, Colby Covington does because he, that dude freaking sucks.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:24

      Well he, he ch- (laughs)

   9. KUKamaru Usman15:26

      He is. (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:26

       He ch- uh, but like, you gotta give it to him. He did beat Dos Anjos. That was a big victory. He did beat Demian Maia. That was a big victory.

   11. KUKamaru Usman15:33

       Absolutely.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:33

       Those are, those are two legit victories over two very dangerous guys. He did beat those guys.

   13. KUKamaru Usman15:37

       Yes, absolutely.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:38

       So he's got skill on top of the trash talking. But the trash talking bumped him ahead of you-

   15. KUKamaru Usman15:43

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:43

       ... in line.

   17. KUKamaru Usman15:44

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:44

       And a lot of us were surprised. You know?

   19. KUKamaru Usman15:46

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:46

       I was surprised.

   21. KUKamaru Usman15:47

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:47

       I was surprised.

   23. KUKamaru Usman15:47

       I mean, uh, that he had to do, he had to do it. And I, I mean, it's gotten him where he has. And I mean, look what he did li- two weeks ago when I fought.

   24. JRJoe Rogan15:56

       Mm-hmm.

   25. KUKamaru Usman15:56

       His whole, his whole deal was for me to create an uproar-

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:00

       Right.

   27. KUKamaru Usman16:00

       ... to get my name back in the picture. And he did a wonderful job. This is one thing that I will, I will, I would say is that, he has done a wonderful job at having people talk about him.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:11

       Right.

   29. KUKamaru Usman16:11

       Whether you hate him, which, and, and even the bosses have said this, the exact same thing, is, no one has done what he's done. No one has ever created the persona that is unanimously hated-

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:26

       (laughs)
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. KUKamaru Usman30:00

      they feel this certain pressure-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:02

      Yeah.

   3. KUKamaru Usman30:03

      ... to, to be able to do this or that.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:05

      Mm-hmm.

   5. KUKamaru Usman30:06

      A- and, and some of the examples that I gave is, there's so much pressure on Anderson Silva. I almost felt like he couldn't wait to lose.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:12

      Yeah.

   7. KUKamaru Usman30:12

      It was just like a, it's like a pressure the way you just wanna put it down. And then, yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:16

      You know, Matthew said that to me when BJ Penn beat him.

   9. KUKamaru Usman30:18

      Yeah. You just, you just wanna get out of there.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:19

       He said it was just so much pressure to is actually honestly relieved.

   11. KUKamaru Usman30:21

       And I feel like it's, it was so much pressure. George St-Pierre ran away from the sport because of that pressure.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:26

       Yeah. Yeah.

   13. KUKamaru Usman30:27

       You know, some people... For me, I don't feel shit.

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:30

       (laughs)

   15. KUKamaru Usman30:30

       Like, (laughs) I was just, I was just thinking, I was like, "I don't care." Like, even, even look at this fight now, the Covington fight.

   16. JRJoe Rogan30:37

       Right.

   17. KUKamaru Usman30:37

       Everyone's already bringing, making a big deal out of it. It's another fight for me. I don't even think of myself as, "Oh, you're the champion." I don't care. I just wanna beat this guy up.

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:47

       Do you think that it, you will care though when the media obligations and all that shit happens? Or do you think you'll just be able to zen your way through all that shit?

   19. KUKamaru Usman30:54

       Um, I would be lying to say n- I would never care. I would be, I would- I think that would be doing an injustice. But I feel like... I go to cer- certain people, like I have some of my go-to people that I, I get to th- I call 'em my mental coaches. And like Rashad, the biggest thing with r- that I learned f- I talked to Rashad about is, Rashad was always pouring into me like, "Man, just enjoy, man. Enjoy the ride. You'll be okay with that feeling." Because there, there was a certain time where I was a little more nervous than usual. I was, I was nervous for what, one, I think, I can't remember the fight, and I was nervous. And Rashad was like, "Man, just make f- friends with that feeling. Be okay with it. Make friends with the feeling..."

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:34

       Hmm.

   21. KUKamaru Usman31:35

       ... o- of being like, understand that it's okay to feel that way.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:39

       Yeah.

   23. KUKamaru Usman31:40

       And just be okay with it. And so that, I, I go back to those feelings. And even, there was this, an exercise when I was wrestling. I was living at the Olympic Training Center. I was training and I started feeling all this pressure that, that a lot of people put on me, "Oh, you're a division two guy. You can't be Olympic champion. You can't do this, you can't do that." And, uh, my coach at the time, Brendan Slade, was like, "Yeah, a lot of people made, you know, made, put that pressure on me when I was competing, too." And said that, "Oh, you're too short. You, you can't beat these guys. You can't beat Buvacis Sati- Satiev," the, you know, the most famous Russian wrestler of all time. And, and they were saying, "You can't beat him. You can't do this. You can't do that." And he said one exercise you should do is you'll think of all these negative thoughts, 'cause people start saying it in your mind. It, it's, it goes into your mind, you know, especially now when all these fans tweet shit and, and say stuff to you, you read it.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:32

       Yeah.

   25. KUKamaru Usman32:32

       If you read it, it's in there. And so, one thing he said you should do is just put all those thoughts in a, just imagine this, envision this glass jar. You just put 'em all in the jar. Shut the lid, grab a big sledgehammer, and you just smash it. And it sounds silly, but I was like, "Uh." It wasn't until a little while after I started kinda doing that. So when I start doubting myself, "Man, can I do it? Can I do it? G- w- oh, man. This guy, he could beat me. I mean, what if he knocks me out and embarrasses me in front of everyone?" Then I might snap the fuck out of it, man. Put it in that jar, put it in that jar and smash it. I'm like, "Have fun with it, man. You're supposed to feel like this. Rashad said you're supposed to feel like this." Yeah, man. It's... Yeah, and I just take a deep breath, I smile, and I just, I snap back in. And Eddie Alvarez also is a, is like someone I consider a brother. These are the guys that, that I go to for when I'm starting to feel down. And I, I talked to Eddie quite a few times before this last fight. When I start feeling a little bit of pressure, I talk to them, and they just kinda, they snap me back.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:33

       Were you, we- were you getting frustrated that you weren't being considered amongst the top contenders when you were undefeated, you were dominating all these people, and you were seeing like, when the, when Wonderboy got two shots, and then, you know, you saw the Demian Maia fight, and these, all these other fights. Was that, was that hard for you?

   27. KUKamaru Usman33:53

       Yeah. It, it was. It was a time where, I'm not gonna lie, Joe. I was like, "Why the fuck am I doing this?" I'm e- you, I'm gonna keep fighting for 25 and 25?

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:05

       Right.

   29. KUKamaru Usman34:05

       30 and 30?

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:06

       Right.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Wow. …

   1. KUKamaru Usman45:00

      first fight and I thought, "Okay, this is great. My career is kickstarting. I'm gonna be doing fights never so often." I went through 20, like 22 opponents within my first fight before I got the second fight.

   2. NANarrator45:13

      Wow.

   3. KUKamaru Usman45:13

      Because now, you know, it's Google now. Everyone, f- "Oh, fuck."

   4. NANarrator45:16

      Right.

   5. KUKamaru Usman45:16

      "He's a national champion wrestler. Nah, I don't wanna fight that guy." 'Cause everyone wants to get to-

   6. NANarrator45:19

      Right.

   7. KUKamaru Usman45:19

      ... the UFC and they figure, oh, it's a best record. You wanna be undefeated to get to the UFC. So nobody wants to fight anyone that's hard.

   8. NANarrator45:26

      Right.

   9. KUKamaru Usman45:27

      And so of course at that point I was a wrestler. I could take anyone down and hold them down for three rounds and wouldn't fight. So everyone, no one wanted that fight. So it was months and months went by and then that fight came about and I was just like, "Shit, I'll take it." And I'ma be honest, I never grappled before that. I never did jujitsu. And so I figured, psh, I can wrestle my way through all this shit. Like man, fuck these guys. These guys are all low level guys. You know, look who I train with. I train with Rashad Evans and these guys.

   10. NANarrator45:56

       Mm-hmm.

   11. KUKamaru Usman45:56

       Those guys can't touch me. I get in the fight, I throw a one-two, his legs are there, like hit him with a one-two, boom, boom, double leg, like li- within 15 seconds. Boom, threw him down, full mount and I'm kinda throwing punches. I didn't really know what I was doing. I'm throwing punches and I'm trying to elbow him. And Jose Caceres is like, I think 6'2", 6'1", 6... I don't know. He's well taller than me. Long limbs. He throws his legs, I'm in full mount, he throws his legs around my body.

   12. NANarrator46:28

       Hmm.

   13. KUKamaru Usman46:29

       I never seen no shit like that before. (laughs)

   14. NANarrator46:31

       Right. (laughs)

   15. KUKamaru Usman46:33

       So (laughs) my mind at that time was like, "What is go- oh, shit. What, what's this shit?" I, I didn't even know what to do. So I'm like, uh, so I start kinda panicking in my mind. I don't know what to do. I'm like, "Fucking get out," which is what you don't do.

   16. NANarrator46:48

       Right.

   17. KUKamaru Usman46:48

       So I turn my body. I'm trying to like get up and walk out, which is what you don't do. And so he just basically climbed up my back. Boom. We're not even sweating yet. Boom, he's on my back, I'm standing up with a backpack on. He's six s- something. He has a foot on the ground, one foot wrapped around me. He's fighting for the choke. And I, I think I hold him off for another like minute and a half. I'm standing and I'm fighting this choke all the while I'm thinking like, "Oh, shit."

   18. NANarrator47:21

       (laughs)

   19. KUKamaru Usman47:22

       I can't go down 'cause I don't know what the fuck I'm doing down there as well.

   20. NANarrator47:25

       Right.

   21. KUKamaru Usman47:26

       So I don't really know the defense down there. So if I go down, that just might make it worse. I don't know the defense and this dude looks like he knows what he's doing behind me. He's got a few more f- he's had a few fights and I'm, I'm kinda scared and I'm fighting it. Now I'm standing up. My feet are getting heavy. It's getting shaky. I- I'm like, "Uh, I'm, I'm a strong guy. Why the fuck are my feet shaking?" Because they're starting to fill up with blood. My adrenaline is pumping and I'm just like, "Oh, shit. I'm about to lose."

   22. NANarrator47:59

       (laughs)

   23. KUKamaru Usman47:59

       (laughs) Joe, there's this moment in your mind to where you start to come to realization with certain things.

   24. NANarrator48:04

       Yeah.

   25. KUKamaru Usman48:05

       I'm like, "Oh, shit. I'm about to lose." And what, and then I start thinking about random thoughts and one of the thoughts that I thought, uh, thought about was... Before the fight, we had a commission meeting in the back and the commission said, "If you get choked unconscious, you're suspended for six months. So you can't fight for six months."'Cause in my mind, I'm like, "Fuck this, I'm a tough guy, I'm- I- you gotta put me to sleep. I ain't never tapping."

   26. NANarrator48:33

       Right.

   27. KUKamaru Usman48:34

       So, I'm like, "If I get..." It took me eight months to get this fight. And this is short notice fight. I haven't made money in eight months. I'm broke as shit. I sleep in Ra- I- I'm- I live with Rashad. I live with another man. I'm broke as shit, I have no money. I need money. So, if I can't fight for another six months, I have no money. So, all these thoughts are going through my mind, and I hear Alex Caceres on the other side of the cage screaming, "He's gonna tap! He's almost out!" And I'm like, "Fuck!"

   28. NANarrator49:09

       (laughs)

   29. KUKamaru Usman49:09

       "Am I gonna tap?" (laughs)

   30. NANarrator49:12

       (laughs)
5. 1:00:00 – 1:08:07

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      Cain was saying that he was, he didn't remember what happened when Frances, Frances apparently grazed him-

   2. KUKamaru Usman1:00:06

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:06

      ... with the first punch near the back of his, of his head and Cain doesn't remember shit after that.

   4. KUKamaru Usman1:00:11

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:11

      And then clipped him with that uppercut on the inside.

   6. KUKamaru Usman1:00:14

      Everyone was saying, like, "Oh, he hurt his knee. That's what happened." No, he got hit with a punch in there.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:18

      He got hit with an uppercut.

   8. KUKamaru Usman1:00:18

      It was a qui- it was a small-

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

      Yeah.

   10. KUKamaru Usman1:00:19

       ... sharp punch.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:20

       That's all it takes with that guy.

   12. KUKamaru Usman1:00:21

       But... (laughs) Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:22

       Yeah. What's, what's amazing that Stipe weathered the storm. That's what's amazing. Is 'cause y- you gotta give credit to Stipe.

   14. KUKamaru Usman1:00:28

       Stipe is a beast.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:28

       I mean, 'cause Stipe wea- weathered the storm when Frances was convinced that he was gonna put Stipe away after the Overeem destruction. I mean, he put Overeem into orbit.

   16. KUKamaru Usman1:00:37

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

       So, to watch that was like, "Holy shit." And you think the striking credentials of Alistair. I mean, Alistair is GLORY Heavyweight Champion, Strikeforce Heavyweight Champion, K-1 Grand Prix. I mean, he won-... the three of the most prestigious titles in combat sports. And to have Francis clip him like that was just, like, Jesus.

   18. KUKamaru Usman1:01:01

       That goes to attest to MMA.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:03

       Mm-hmm.

   20. KUKamaru Usman1:01:03

       This is why the sport's so great.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:05

       Mm-hmm.

   22. KUKamaru Usman1:01:05

       It doesn't matter where you come from, what you, what, whether you're-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

       It's different.

   24. KUKamaru Usman1:01:08

       ... good at s- whether you're good at it. It's, it doesn't matter. Those f-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:12

       Hmm.

   26. KUKamaru Usman1:01:12

       With those four-ounce gloves an, and then being able to wrestle and grapple and do all this-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:17

       Yep.

   28. KUKamaru Usman1:01:17

       ... everything cha- it's an even playing field for everybody.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:20

       Yeah. Now, if he just gets his wrestling on point, I mean, he's, it's, he, it's crazy that he's only been doing MMA, all totaled, for what, five years now?

   30. KUKamaru Usman1:01:30

       Yeah, five, six years.

Episode duration: 2:47:41