JRE MMA Show #59 with Kamaru Usman

Joe Rogan 0:09 And we're live. What's up? How are you? (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 0:11 What's up, Joe? Man.

Joe Rogan 0:13 Dude, you're on a roller coaster ride. What is it like to f- be the champ? Oh. Well- What's the feeling like? This is fresh for you.

Kamaru Usman 0:19 Oh, well, first of all, I just wanna say, man, it's such an honor to be here. Um...

Joe Rogan 0:24 The honor's mine.

Kamaru Usman 0:25 I never... I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be honest. I'm, I'm, my thing is I'm just gonna be, like, 100% totally transparent. I was never... I never really watched this show. I never really kind of heard of this show. Of course I heard of you a- and all the things you do. I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that Fear Factor guy."

Joe Rogan 0:41 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 0:41 You know? But I never really heard of this show until, like, after a, like, a fight or two in the UFC and people are, like, tagging me and shit. Like, "Yo, Joe Rogan's talking about you." "Joe Rogan talked about you on the podcast." I'm like, "Fucking podcasts?" 'Cause I never listened to podcasts at the time. Was like, "Who the f-... What are you talking about?" 'Til I finally started listening. I'm like, "Oh, this dude is for real."

Joe Rogan 1:01 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 1:01 "This dude got some sh- some, some pull. He got some people watching this shit."

Joe Rogan 1:06 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 1:06 Random people would tag me. "Oh, Joe was talking about you today on the podcast." I'm like, "Oh, man. This guy's for real." And then n- every time after that that I see you, I'm like, "What's up, Joe?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:18 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 1:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:18 Yeah, we've been talking about you for a long time, man. We were just w- with your friend out there. We were watching a video of us talking about you back when you were ranked number 12th. And I was saying, "I think you could fight for the title right now."

Kamaru Usman 1:28 Yeah, man. That, um... And I, I, I, I like to attest it to. I think... 'Cause I went back once I started kind of researching you. I, I like to go back and do a little research. And I'm like, "Fucking Joe's been with this, this sport for the beginning." Like, you were in the back with Hare 1977, yeah. ... (laughs) with Hare, he with Hare freaking interviewing the guys y- that were doi- during the tournament that were fighting multiple fights a night.

Joe Rogan 1:53 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 1:54 And you were interviewing those guys and I was like, "That... Even back then, Joe had skills. Joe was a beast at interviewing these guys." There was no shaking behind it, 'cause I... You know, one thing about me, I've gotten into com- uh, commentating and things like that now, and I'm like, "Dang, Joe, he didn't seem nervous. You were just, like, a freaking natural at it." And the sport was just growing at that time. I was like, "Man, there was Well, there, there was nobody watching back then. It wa- wasn't as much pressure, you know? It wasn't like coming into it today- Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:19 ... ESPN, pay-per-view, all that deal. It would be a lot of pressure. But back then, it was just fun. I mean-

Kamaru Usman 2:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:25 ... it was, it was weird, man. The first one I did was in Dothan, Alabama, in this weird, like... It wa- I don't know if it was a high school gym or something, uh, some small auditorium, tiny little place. It was very weird.

Kamaru Usman 2:37 Yeah, but you made it look like a freaking cert- little walk in the park. I mean, it was... I was like, "Damn, Joe's good at this. Joe's been doing this shit for a while."

Joe Rogan 2:45 Well, it's, uh, it's an interesting thing to see, you know, to see it progress from 1997 to where it's at in 2019. The biggest difference is not just, uh, the amount of eyes that it gets and the amount of people that are paying attention to. The real difference is the level of athlete. It's a d- it's a giant, giant leap, like, in no other sport. I don't think there's another sport from 1993 to 2019 where the athletes are almost... It's almost unrecognizable how much better the fighters are.

Kamaru Usman 3:14 Absolutely. Uh, you know, there... It's... Now, back in the day, it was like, okay, you finished your college career. You finished all this. You've got to the height of whatever, you know, sport you could be. Let's start fighting. And so guys were coming in at 28, 27, starting to learn the s- the tricks. Now you got freaking 10-year-old kids-

Joe Rogan 3:36 Yup.

Kamaru Usman 3:36 ... sparring.

Joe Rogan 3:37 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 3:38 There's all these crazy videos of, like, little bitty kids fighting in, like, Russia or other places. Like, they're full on MMA fighting now.

Joe Rogan 3:45 Yeah. It's a totally different world.

Kamaru Usman 3:46 It's like, yeah, whole promotion. I'm like, I mean, by the time these guys get to 16, 17, they're gonna be killers.

Joe Rogan 3:52 Yeah, but if you go back and watch, like, a boxing match from, like, '93, a bo- a world champion boxer, like Marvin Hagler, perfect example. Marvin Hagler from the '80s could absolutely hang with middleweights, uh, like, he's... He would fit right in with world champions today.

Kamaru Usman 4:08 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 4:09 But a, a UFC champ from '93, I mean, god, it's just not the same. It's not by any stretch. It's, it is such a... Back then, it was like a b- it was wild, it was crazy, but nobody had endurance. And you know, there was a few guys that had some skill and certainly, like Orvan- Orlando Veit-

Kamaru Usman 4:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:25 ... or Royce Gracie. There was... Guys were really good at their individual arts, but there was no real complete fighters yet.

Kamaru Usman 4:33 Yeah. You got the transition because it was... Everyone came in with their special skills and that was-

Joe Rogan 4:38 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 4:38 ... that was a big thing. I think UFC even sold that as, "Oh yeah, you got the wrestler-

Joe Rogan 4:42 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 4:42 ... fighting the com- the combo." The, the-

Joe Rogan 4:45 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 4:45 ... you know, sambo guy and the jujitsu guy and the... So that was the thing. Everyone came in with their one skill and they put it to the test to see which skill-

Joe Rogan 4:53 When did you start watching?

Kamaru Usman 4:55 ... is better. It's, it's freaking crazy, Joe. My first fight, first time I ever watched a UFC fight, I was visiting Jon Jones in college, freshman year. This was our, our, our freshman year, true freshman year. I was visiting him 'cause I went to a, a small school, Univer- William, William Penn University, which was about two hours away from him, and he was at Iowa Central in Fort Dodge, Iowa. So I went to go spend my fall break a whole week with him, just hanging out 'cause we had met the previous year in high school and just... You know, it was two brothers in wrestling. It was like, "Hey," two brothers, "what's up, man?"

Joe Rogan 5:29 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 5:29 "Where you going to school next year?" He's like, "I'ma be at Iowa." I was like, "Yo, me too." And so we kept in touch and I went up to hang out with him, and during that week, it was a fight on. Someone, like a friend of the team, something like that, invited us to come to his house and watch it. And we went over there to watch the fights. I never really heard of it. I never really cared. I was just a freshman just trying to hang out with Jon and party.

Joe Rogan 5:53 What year was this around?

Kamaru Usman 5:54 This was 2005.

Joe Rogan 5:56 2005.

Kamaru Usman 5:56 I think. Yeah, 2005.

Joe Rogan 5:57 So this is, like, first season of The Ultimate Fighter?

Kamaru Usman 5:59 Yeah.... 2005. So, we goin', I think it might've been Randy Couture or someone, John just reminded me but I forgot who it was fighting. And we went to the house party and watched it. I really didn't really remember the fight. I, 'cause I didn't really care, I never paid attention to it. I never thought I would ever do something like that, so I just watched it and, and then I remember the guy saying, "Hey man, you guys can do this. Why don't you guys try this?" And I was like, me- uh, me and John kind of looked at each other like, "Hell no, ain't no way we gonna do that shit."

Joe Rogan 6:29 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 6:29 You know? (laughs) Wrestling is controlled, you know, there's rules, w- you know, certain things you can or can't do. There's no way we're doing that. So we kinda laughed it off and, and left that day. Never knew that I, freaking years later, I would be doing this, doing this for it.

Joe Rogan 6:45 Not just doing it, you dethroned the guy who many people, including me, were saying as a, is a very good argument for the best welterweight ever. I felt like Tyron, is like, you gotta give it, there's like two, there's legendary status, right? There's like, Matt Hughes has legendary status for being the original. He was one of the first wrestlers who really knew how to submit guys. And then Georges St-Pierre was, of course, i- many people's eyes, the greatest of all time in the welterweight division. Went on this long run. But I was like, man, when you, if Tyron beats Usman, I was like, there's a real good argument for him being number one of all time. Beating Wonderboy, beat, smashing Darren Till, beating Demian Maia, knocking out Robbie Lawler to win the title, you know?

Kamaru Usman 7:29 Absolutely. I considered him. I, I put him in that conversation.

Joe Rogan 7:31 Yeah. He's in that conversation for sure.

Kamaru Usman 7:33 For s- for sure. I put him in that conversation. I've, you know, nothing but respect for Tyron. I mean-

Joe Rogan 7:39 It was nice to see afterwards, it was, there's a video of you and Tyron's mom, and Tyron and Tyron's mom afterward. It was a beautiful video, man.

Kamaru Usman 7:46 Yeah, man. I, um-

Joe Rogan 7:47 It's a tearjerker.

Kamaru Usman 7:49 I, I freaking, I, I let it go, 'cause I'm one of those guys, I never really sit and, and stop and smell the roses and things like that. I always, I always have a chip on my shoulder. And I'll explain why that is, but I, I always had this chip on my shoulder with everything that I do. So, I never really sit and celebrate and say, "Oh yeah, I accomplished this," or, "I did that or did that." But I had known, I'd known his mom. I, I met her previously to, to that, the fights. I fought in St. Louis one time, and of course I'd seen her several times at his fights, but I was fighting in St. Louis and I was there early, and she was at the hotel. Tyron wasn't fighting or anything, but she just came to the hotel, I think she was just hanging out. And I got to sit with her before like, all the fighters even came into town, I had to sit with her. I think we sat for a couple of hours, maybe three, four hours just talking. I got to know her and she was, she was just such an angel, but at the same time, she's, she's a gangster too, like you k-

Joe Rogan 8:50 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 8:50 ... you can't, you know, she, she was everything and the only thing, the biggest thing I could compare her to is, if you ever seen that show from way back, it's called Touched by an Angel.

Joe Rogan 9:01 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 9:01 And, uh, I forget what her name is, she's like this famous, like, Black actress, and, um-

Joe Rogan 9:05 Do you remember that woman's name? Adele... what is it?

Kamaru Usman 9:07 I, I, I forget her name.

Narrator 9:08 May Angelou, I believe.

Joe Rogan 9:08 What is it?

Narrator 9:09 It was Maya Angelou.

Joe Rogan 9:10 It was it?

Narrator 9:10 Wasn't it?

Kamaru Usman 9:10 It was, I thought... No, it wasn't Maya Angelou. It was that, like, I mean she was at Maya Angelou status how big that she was and inspirational, but that's kinda what I compare her to.

Narrator 9:19 That's cool.

Kamaru Usman 9:19 And so we got, we got cl- w- you know, I knew her, and Tyron obviously wasn't who I would've chosen to take the belt from. But, it was how long could you hold yourself back? Because being a cha- there's a huge, and Tyron said it himself, there's a huge difference between being a challenger and a champion.

Joe Rogan 9:36 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 9:37 And of course-

Joe Rogan 9:38 Bra him.

Kamaru Usman 9:38 ... I, I need, I needed to have my family in that, that argument.

Joe Rogan 9:42 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 9:42 I, I need, I need to get them to that status to where now I'm setting my daughter up and I'm setting-

Joe Rogan 9:47 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 9:48 ... my, my, everyone up for, you know, life, better life forever, and I couldn't continue to hold that back. So, yeah, it was unfortunate that I had to take that from him, and I kinda, in a sense I felt like I was taking away from what he was doing for them. So when I saw her walking backstage, I just couldn't control it. I just let my, I just let go and I just couldn't help but cry on her shoulders.

Joe Rogan 10:09 Yeah. This is a great, it's a great video. What, what is her name, what's the woman's name?

Narrator 10:13 The actress is Roma Downey.

Joe Rogan 10:14 Roma Downey, that's right.

Kamaru Usman 10:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's her.

Joe Rogan 10:16 The, the video's amazing 'cause she's hugging you and she's telling you congratulations and she's telling you that they're com- they're gonna be coming for you, so train hard.

Kamaru Usman 10:25 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:26 And just like, her attitude, man, it's, it's beautiful man.

Kamaru Usman 10:29 (laughs) It's awesome.

Joe Rogan 10:29 It's, it's a, it's amazing, her character, that she handled that. I mean, this is her baby.

Kamaru Usman 10:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:35 Her baby just lost and lost every round, and it was a, you know, pretty dominant victory by you. And for her to treat you that way afterwards just shows am-

Kamaru Usman 10:43 Right. It's...

Joe Rogan 10:43 ... amazing character.

Kamaru Usman 10:45 Yeah, and, and it's, it, um-

Joe Rogan 10:46 There it is right here.

Kamaru Usman 10:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:47 You can see it up here. Look at her, she just embraces you, open arms.

Narrator 10:53 It's all good.

Joe Rogan 10:54 "It's all good."

Kamaru Usman 10:54 (laughs)

Narrator 10:56 It's all good, honey. Rest your head, it's all good.

Kamaru Usman 11:00 Amazing.

Narrator 11:00 It's your turn, it ain't his turn. It's your turn. Be encouraged.

Joe Rogan 11:04 That's an amazing woman right there.

Narrator 11:06 You hear me? And keep on working 'cause they're still coming for you.

Kamaru Usman 11:08 (laughs)

Narrator 11:08 And you take it to them. It's all good.

Joe Rogan 11:11 Wow. That's amazing, man.

Kamaru Usman 11:13 Yeah. Oh, shit.

Joe Rogan 11:14 And even Tyron, the way Tyron handled it, it's crazy right? It makes me cry.

Kamaru Usman 11:17 Something in the air over here, what's going on? (laughs) Y'all gotta dust it in here, huh? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:20 Dude, I got it too. (laughs) It made me cry when I saw it, it's making me cry now.

Kamaru Usman 11:24 Yeah man, um...

Joe Rogan 11:25 And, and, and the way she treated Tyron too, the same thing. I mean, she's just...

Kamaru Usman 11:29 That's, and that, that's, that's kinda, that's how my mom is too. That, so, I felt such a connection to that, to her-

Joe Rogan 11:37 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 11:37 ... because my mom is the exact same way. My mom would've done the same thing to Tyron. And, um, it just, it was powerful man. It wa- it was moving, and because it's... And it goes to attest to how, how the sport has, how big a sport it is as well.

Joe Rogan 11:51 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 11:52 Like, it's not, "Oh man, it's a f- just a regular fight, you guys hate each other and you're fighting." No, this was a competition.

Joe Rogan 11:58 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 11:59 You know, this was two men that went in there to, for a competition and one guy won-And, you know, you saw the aftermath. To see-

Joe Rogan 12:07 People-

Kamaru Usman 12:07 ... the family receive each other, man. I mean-

Joe Rogan 12:08 People love that, man. They love when people put all that bullshit aside. (clears throat) I mean, you guys had a lot of trash talk at the press conferences and there was a lot of that going on. But that sells tickets and it's good for everybody, and it's, it's natural and normal. But after it was over, the, it was nothing but respect. And it's what a lot of people think is wrong about the trash talk of this era.

Kamaru Usman 12:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:31 'Cause there's, this is a, there's an era right now, right?

Kamaru Usman 12:34 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:34 This is, we're in the trash talk era.

Kamaru Usman 12:36 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 12:36 And some people are really good at it, and some people are terrible at it. (coughs) But it seems like everybody's trying. I mean, Masvidal, um, re- recently, when he just beat Darren Till, it was, uh, very interesting because, you know, his take on it before the fight was, "Why am I, why, why trash talk? Like, what are we doing? What are we, you know, why... We're gonna fight. Like, what is all this bullshit about?" Like, he doesn't like it. He was like, "I, I don't like wh- where this is going. I don't like where the sport is going."

Kamaru Usman 13:01 Yeah, I mean, it was, it's one of those things that I had to adjust to.

Joe Rogan 13:05 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 13:06 Because I wasn't brought on those principles. I don't, I'm not, you know, I wasn't-

Joe Rogan 13:09 You're a competitor.

Kamaru Usman 13:09 ... I'm not here... Yeah, I wasn't here for a salesman.

Joe Rogan 13:12 Right.

Kamaru Usman 13:12 Like, people ask me all the time, "Why do you do this?" And I chose to do this. Like, I'm college-educated. I can get a fucking job a- and, and sit in an office a- and, and punch numbers and all that. But I chose to do this because of my burning desire to compete. That's when I... Even now, when I compete with guys, I'm not competing angry. I don't wanna kill this guy. I'm not rah, rah, rahing all that shit. No, it's competition for me. My mind is, "I'm gonna beat you." And which is partially, which, which goes to attested to how I fight and how I compete. I- I'm not like that. This is not the only thing that I can do. And so, this era came about where now everybody, you gotta talk shit, you gotta sell, you gotta do this and do that. And so...

Joe Rogan 13:56 Do you feel any pressure to do that?

Kamaru Usman 13:59 I- initially, at some point I did because it was, um, I was fighting the way I was fighting. I was dominating guys and I was getting nowhere.

Joe Rogan 14:07 Right.

Kamaru Usman 14:08 It was like, no notoriety. They were kind of like, just kind of putting you on the wayside. They would always tell me, "Oh, you'll get a top 10 guy. You'll get a top 10 guy." But it wouldn't happen. It was like, "Oh, you, you fight this guy." And you can't really argue with them because this promotion is giving you the opportunity to even really make money at all for the career path that you've chose. So, for a, for a while I just felt like, "Man, this is not w- I guess I just gotta do this." Because you saw it. The other clown, Covington, he had to do that. He absolutely had...

Joe Rogan 14:37 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 14:37 Nothing has changed with the way that he fights. He's done the exact same thing since he'd been in the UFC. But after the first couple fights, no one gave a shit. So he felt, "You know what? No, I'm just gonna have to start doing this."

Joe Rogan 14:48 Right.

Kamaru Usman 14:48 Everyone knows it's fake-

Joe Rogan 14:50 Right.

Kamaru Usman 14:51 ... because he just one day woke up and started doing it. And that's, that's the thing now. You have to do... People try to say, "You have to do that." But for me, is, what I'm not gonna do is, I'm not gonna just sell my soul just to, "Oh yeah, I'm just trying to earn a couple bucks." Because I- I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna do it the right way. George did it the right way. And, and, and I-

Joe Rogan 15:12 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 15:12 ... I'm a firm believer that when you do it the right way, you will earn what you deserve. It will come to you at some point.

Joe Rogan 15:18 I don't think-

Kamaru Usman 15:19 And-

Joe Rogan 15:19 ... that you have to. I really don't.

Kamaru Usman 15:21 Yeah, some, I mean, Colby Covington does because he, that dude freaking sucks.

Joe Rogan 15:24 Well he, he ch- (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 15:26 He is. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:26 He ch- uh, but like, you gotta give it to him. He did beat Dos Anjos. That was a big victory. He did beat Demian Maia. That was a big victory.

Kamaru Usman 15:33 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 15:33 Those are, those are two legit victories over two very dangerous guys. He did beat those guys.

Kamaru Usman 15:37 Yes, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 15:38 So he's got skill on top of the trash talking. But the trash talking bumped him ahead of you-

Kamaru Usman 15:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:43 ... in line.

Kamaru Usman 15:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:44 And a lot of us were surprised. You know?

Kamaru Usman 15:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:46 I was surprised.

Kamaru Usman 15:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:47 I was surprised.

Kamaru Usman 15:47 I mean, uh, that he had to do, he had to do it. And I, I mean, it's gotten him where he has. And I mean, look what he did li- two weeks ago when I fought.

Joe Rogan 15:56 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 15:56 His whole, his whole deal was for me to create an uproar-

Joe Rogan 16:00 Right.

Kamaru Usman 16:00 ... to get my name back in the picture. And he did a wonderful job. This is one thing that I will, I will, I would say is that, he has done a wonderful job at having people talk about him.

Joe Rogan 16:11 Right.

Kamaru Usman 16:11 Whether you hate him, which, and, and even the bosses have said this, the exact same thing, is, no one has done what he's done. No one has ever created the persona that is unanimously hated-

Joe Rogan 16:26 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 16:26 ... worldwide. Like, unanimously. There's not-

Joe Rogan 16:30 Right.

Kamaru Usman 16:30 ... even a-

Joe Rogan 16:30 He's a heel.

Kamaru Usman 16:30 He's, yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:30 Like a wrestling heel.

Kamaru Usman 16:31 Like literally-

Joe Rogan 16:32 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 16:32 ... a heel. Like those guys, they were, they still had fans, you know-

Joe Rogan 16:35 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 16:35 ... that wanted to see them succeed. Like, nobody likes... He's not safe anywhere.

Joe Rogan 16:40 No.

Kamaru Usman 16:40 You know? You don't even have to be... There's flyweights that wanna hurt this guy.

Joe Rogan 16:44 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 16:44 (laughs) You know? So it's, unanimously-

Joe Rogan 16:47 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 16:47 ... he has, he's done a good job of creating that, which I love. And I, I appreciate that. Um-

Joe Rogan 16:51 It's gonna sell a lot of pay-per-views-

Kamaru Usman 16:52 Yeah, I'm not a-

Joe Rogan 16:52 ... when you guys fight.

Kamaru Usman 16:53 Yeah, I'm not a hater. I'm not-

Joe Rogan 16:54 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 16:54 ... a hater. Like, I give credit where credit is due. I appreciate the fact that he has done that. And that's one thing that Rashad taught me over the years, is that you, you have to appreciate certain things like that. And I, and I do. I always wanted this moment. I always wanted that Conor and Khabib.

Joe Rogan 17:09 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 17:09 That, that, that adversary. That Rashad and Rampage. That Hughes and, and, and Georges St-Pierre. Like, I, I always wanted that. And, and he's done a good job of creating that.

Joe Rogan 17:20 So, y- not just an adversary in terms of like, a legitimate worthy opponent, but a dude that you wanna fuck up? (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 17:27 Abso-freaking-lutely. I mean, I haven't, I haven't been in a fight yet where it was like malicious. Like, I was maliciously trying to hurt someone.

Joe Rogan 17:36 Right.

Kamaru Usman 17:37 I, I haven't been in that fight yet. Yes, I don't, that's the thing about me is with my mind. My mind is strong. I don't compete, "Oh yeah, I'm trying to kill this guy." And then you swing five punches, you miss, now you're dead tired.

Joe Rogan 17:46 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 17:47 I don't compete like that. This one, I'm still gonna compete as myself, but there's gonna be a little extra oomph-

Joe Rogan 17:53 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 17:53 ... behind these, (laughs) these elbows now. I'm gonna filet your face with the literal longer cuts. I'm, I'm trying to r-... This one is gonna be one that I, I really enjoy.

Joe Rogan 18:02 Well, there was the same with Khabib and Conor when he said, "I wanna change your face."

Kamaru Usman 18:06 Yes. I-

Joe Rogan 18:06 When he said that I was like, "Damn, that's deep."

Kamaru Usman 18:09 And-

Joe Rogan 18:09 "I wanna change your face."

Kamaru Usman 18:10 And you saw that e- even when, when Khabib was like that.

Joe Rogan 18:13 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 18:13 In his, um-Khabib was never out of character. And Khabib-

Joe Rogan 18:16 No.

Kamaru Usman 18:16 ... never was like, "Oh, yeah, I'm just gonna go out there and try to kill this guy."

Joe Rogan 18:19 Right.

Kamaru Usman 18:19 We... There's a certain level, there's a certain mentality-

Joe Rogan 18:22 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 18:22 ... that certain fighters have to have. And Khabib is, uh, another guy that I've seen that competes similarly to the way that I do, as far as his mind-

Joe Rogan 18:31 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 18:31 ... where it's at. Like, I don't give a shit what you do. Talk about me, do all this, try to distract me. Like, they tried me. This all come, uh, leading up to the Tyron fight, they did everything. What are you gonna do? And then you had his, his little sidekick that looked like Sideshow Bob, that was, was talking and doing this, trying to distract me, and this. A- and then Colby popped up, trying to distract me. That didn't change anything. That's not gonna do nothing to me. Like, my mind is on competing. I'm gonna compete to the best of my abilities, and I'm gonna embarrass you. And then this guy is gonna be even more worthy.

Joe Rogan 19:04 The big change in your skill set from your first fight in the UFC to now is your striking. Your wrestling has always been outstanding. Your cardio has always been excellent. But your striking is much more fluid and much looser. You're, you, you're much more efficient now. It's, you was, you were always powerful, but it seems like now everything's fallen together. Like, you don't have any holes in your game anymore.

Kamaru Usman 19:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:27 It's a different thing.

Kamaru Usman 19:28 Yeah, Joe. Um, I've been with my, I've been with my same team since the start. The same guys that I've been with, um... Unfort- you know Glenn Robinson started our gym.

Joe Rogan 19:38 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 19:38 Unfortunately, he passed away, you know. Rest in peace to Glenn, uh-

Joe Rogan 19:41 When did he die? I didn't even know-

Kamaru Usman 19:43 He died, uh-

Joe Rogan 19:44 ... he passed away.

Kamaru Usman 19:44 ... last year. Yeah, he died last year.

Joe Rogan 19:46 I didn't even know.

Kamaru Usman 19:47 Yeah, I know. Yeah, he had a, a heart attack, man. And, um, it's, it was sad. I couldn't really believe that it happened, you know. But it did and, uh, I'd say he's in a better place, you know. But, um, yeah, he passed and he was a, he started all this, you know. Him and Rashad Evans.

Joe Rogan 20:02 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 20:03 Rashad needed a new place when he was leaving Jackson's and, um-

Joe Rogan 20:06 Right.

Kamaru Usman 20:06 And Glenn was kinda like, they, they got together and decided to, to start this. And so Rashad Evans, at the top of the game, who doesn't wanna train with Rashad Evans?

Joe Rogan 20:15 Right.

Kamaru Usman 20:15 And so it kinda spread like wildfire, to where everyone started going down there. But, yeah, I, I've been with the same guy. Henry Hooft just came down at that time. Henry Hooft was the striking coach. I've been with him since, you know. And, um-

Joe Rogan 20:28 He's a phenomenal coach too.

Kamaru Usman 20:29 A- amazing coach. I mean-

Joe Rogan 20:30 Such a good striking coach. The, those, those Dutch fundamentals.

Kamaru Usman 20:34 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:34 I mean, that guy's got it down.

Kamaru Usman 20:35 Yeah. And, and a lotta, you know, there's a, I've, I've seen a lot of different coaches, different styles. And I, you know, I like, I like a lot of different things. But the thing with Henry is he's, he's, he's very basic. Because at the end of the day, when you're fucking tired and, and you can't even hold your arms up and do certain things, you're just gonna do basic, regular shit.

Joe Rogan 20:56 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 20:56 It's j- ugh, jab.

Joe Rogan 20:58 Right.

Kamaru Usman 20:58 Two. One, two. That's what you're gonna do.

Joe Rogan 21:00 No, he's gonna keep it simple-

Kamaru Usman 21:01 And he's-

Joe Rogan 21:01 ... stupid.

Kamaru Usman 21:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:02 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 21:02 He's very like that. He keeps it simple. And that was a way for me to learn it.

Joe Rogan 21:07 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 21:07 It, it's just from the, from the bottom up. I just, I learned it. Now, now don't get it wrong, Joe. I can do some of that cool shit. Like, in practice, I'll do cartwheel kicks. I'll do the, all that cool shit.

Joe Rogan 21:18 Sanchez shit?

Kamaru Usman 21:18 I can do that. Yeah, that reverse loopty loop-

Joe Rogan 21:21 (coughs) Right.

Kamaru Usman 21:21 ... front, side, side Taekwondo kick. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:25 (laughs) You can do all that shit?

Kamaru Usman 21:25 I can, I can try it.

Joe Rogan 21:26 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 21:26 You know? (laughs) But-

Joe Rogan 21:27 But do you think ever about, like, moments in fights? There are moments in fights where a, a fighter will do something. The be- the best example is Chris Weidman versus Luke Rockhold. Chris Weidman tries this wheel kick outta nowhere and he misses with it. Luke gets a hold of him, drags him to the ground-

Kamaru Usman 21:47 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:47 ... and beats the shit out of him.

Kamaru Usman 21:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:48 And it was a, W- Luke has a nasty top game.

Kamaru Usman 21:51 Absolutely, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:52 I mean, his top game is crushing and he just, he just, uh, ruthless ground and pound. And it changed the course of Chris's career in a lot of ways.

Kamaru Usman 21:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:59 Like, that beating went on. I mean, he lost the title and then he lost other fights afterwards. But before that, he was dominating. He had beaten Anderson twice, he had crushed Vitor. He was a different thing. And that w- uh, it just, there's these moments, these pivotal moments in fights when someone just tries something. I mean, most of the time you just get away with it.

Kamaru Usman 22:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:18 But sometimes, like, and that is my go-to when I tell people, "Don't try some shit that's not your thing." This is the best example. Ch- Chris Weidman throwing that wheel kick against Luke Rockhold.

Kamaru Usman 22:30 Yeah, you gotta, um... And I, and that's part of everything that's grouped in with fight IQ.

Joe Rogan 22:35 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 22:36 You have to be able to assess risk, reward, and certain things like that.

Joe Rogan 22:40 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 22:40 And that, that's kinda, uh, at some point, it was a knock on me. It's like, "Oh, this guy never gets out of position. He never does any of the cool shit or any of that." You know? It was kinda, uh, a lot of people-

Joe Rogan 22:49 Who was giving you that knock?

Kamaru Usman 22:51 Fucking people.

Joe Rogan 22:52 You can't listen to them.

Kamaru Usman 22:53 You know?

Joe Rogan 22:53 Come to me. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 22:53 I know, Joe. You, I, I, I listen to you saying it all the time.

Joe Rogan 22:56 Come to me. Who says he's doing everything perfect?

Kamaru Usman 22:57 Yeah, like-

Joe Rogan 22:57 I was saying a long time ago, it's like, "This guy's not fucking up."

Kamaru Usman 23:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:00 Like, "He keeps running through guys and he's beating guys like a world champion already."

Kamaru Usman 23:04 Yeah, a lot of people always kinda, you know, like, "Oh, well, he didn't do all this, he's not doing all that." But the thing with me i- is, is being able to assess when, when I can do that-

Joe Rogan 23:14 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 23:14 ... when, when I, I can't do that.

Joe Rogan 23:15 Right.

Kamaru Usman 23:15 Like, when I fought RDA, I threw a freakin' ax kick in the fifth round.

Joe Rogan 23:18 Right.

Kamaru Usman 23:19 You know? I, and I was... I practiced that in practice. I, I catch guys with it all the time. And it's just being able to assess risk-

Joe Rogan 23:27 You either had him, you already had him.

Kamaru Usman 23:29 ... and reward. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:30 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 23:30 I, I knew that there was, you know, it was an opportunity for me to start letting go.

Joe Rogan 23:34 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 23:34 And so I started letting go and, uh, I mean, RDA is a tough, tough dude.

Joe Rogan 23:40 Very tough.

Kamaru Usman 23:40 Tough dude.

Joe Rogan 23:41 He's a tweener, right?

Kamaru Usman 23:42 Freaking hardhead.

Joe Rogan 23:43 He seems like he's a tweener to me. Like, he's not quite a 170. I mean, he could beat a lot of guys at 170-

Kamaru Usman 23:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:49 ... but it's almost like he should be like 160 or 165.

Kamaru Usman 23:52 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:53 But 155 is too hard of a cut for him these days.

Kamaru Usman 23:55 Yeah, but the thing is, that's, that's just, that's the nature of the game.

Joe Rogan 23:58 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 23:58 Because if we, if we started saying, "Okay, we're just- we're gonna accommodate everybody," it's never gonna stop.

Joe Rogan 24:03 Do you think there should be more weight classes?Well, you don't care. You're a champ.

Kamaru Usman 24:06 I don't, I don't ca- no-

Joe Rogan 24:07 (laughs) I mean, 170 works for you.

Kamaru Usman 24:09 It, uh, it's still a hard cut.

Joe Rogan 24:11 Is it? Where do you walk around at?

Kamaru Usman 24:11 No, it's hard for me. 190.

Joe Rogan 24:14 Yeah, that's-

Kamaru Usman 24:15 180, 188 to 190.

Joe Rogan 24:17 That's, believe it or not, like for most people that are listening to this, that's on the light side.

Kamaru Usman 24:22 Yeah, no, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 24:23 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 24:23 I know it is, but the thing is, I'm so lean and I'm 180 and I'm walking around below 6% body fat.

Joe Rogan 24:28 Who do you... Oh, wow. Who do you use to cut, to, for weight cutting?

Kamaru Usman 24:31 Um, for the last couple of fights, man, I've been working with, uh, Clint, Clint Whittenburg up at the, uh, PI.

Joe Rogan 24:37 Oh, the UFC performance center?

Kamaru Usman 24:38 And Trifecta. Yeah, and Trifecta.

Joe Rogan 24:39 I like Clint a lot.

Kamaru Usman 24:40 Yeah, and Clint, man, Clint's the man.

Joe Rogan 24:42 What is Trifecta?

Kamaru Usman 24:42 Trifecta Food System. Trifecta, they, they essentially, you know, the meal delivery, meal prep stuff.

Joe Rogan 24:47 Oh, okay.

Kamaru Usman 24:47 And they, they do a phenomenal job. Phenomenal. And Clint, the reason I chose to go with him is I've always did it by myself. I like to cook. I, I cook for myself. I always... You know, when all those fights, earlier fights in the UFC, every one of my fights, I was in charge of my own diet. I cook for myself, I do this, because I've done it so many years in wrestling all the wrong way.

Joe Rogan 25:10 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 25:11 I can look at myself, I can wake up in the morning, look at myself in the mirror and tell how much I weigh and I'll be right on just because I'm so used to my body. So I know what I can or I can't eat, what, what can hold food, what can hold water. And it's just, it's a discipline thing for me as well. And so I, so I decided, you know what? I'm getting higher up now. One thing that I don't understand is, that I haven't done the research is, is what foods to eat before a certain practice at certain times to fuel me the best. To make me help, help me feel the best, 'cause I'm getting older and, and things aren't the same. They u- the way they used to be.

Joe Rogan 25:46 How old are you now?

Kamaru Usman 25:46 I'm 31 and I'm gonna be 32 in May and I'm like, "Man, I just don't feel it."

Joe Rogan 25:51 What, what differences have you noticed?

Kamaru Usman 25:52 A lot of difference.

Joe Rogan 25:54 Yeah?

Kamaru Usman 25:54 Like at 24, I'd just fucking wake up at 6:00 AM and I can go for a freaking five-mile run like that with nothing. Now I can't do that anymore.

Joe Rogan 26:02 Do you think that is age or do you think that is miles? Like all the hard training?

Kamaru Usman 26:07 It's, it's a com- it's a combination of both.

Joe Rogan 26:08 'Cause 31, you're in your athletic prime.

Kamaru Usman 26:10 Yeah, it's a combination of both 'cause in wrestling years, I, I gotta be in the late 40s.

Joe Rogan 26:14 Wrestling years, right, right.

Kamaru Usman 26:14 I mean, wrestling years, I'm late 40s. I mean, back is, is shot. My, you know, my shoulders are shot. My kn- my knees. Oh my God, my knees. I've had five knee surgeries.

Joe Rogan 26:25 Jesus Christ.

Kamaru Usman 26:26 Yeah, and-

Joe Rogan 26:26 I saw you limping. Did you have one recently?

Kamaru Usman 26:28 I just had surgery. I actually, um, had surgery on Tuesday. Um-

Joe Rogan 26:32 Oh, that's a hernia, right?

Kamaru Usman 26:34 Last Tuesday, I had a double hernia, yes.

Joe Rogan 26:35 Jesus. So did you fight with a double hernia?

Kamaru Usman 26:37 Uh, I tore it before, like five weeks before the fight and, um, but I don't know if it was completely off.

Joe Rogan 26:44 You had a hernia and a broken foot for that fight?

Kamaru Usman 26:46 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:47 That is fucking crazy.

Kamaru Usman 26:48 The funny thing is, and, and Ali makes fun of me about this, my manager, is, um, like all fight week, like if you saw me, you would think this guy was like a zombie. Like I, um, I limp around, I have freaking lichen patches on me and I'm in a boot or, or a sleeve. And, and all I do all day is I go do the media rounds or whatever I need to do, training, come back, and I'm just in my room either game ready on me or, or something on me. But when I walk through that door to fight, the Nigerian Nightmare wakes up. I flip the switch and a lot of people would, would... If they go back and look at videos of when I walk into the cage, I st- I step right before the cage, I pray, say my prayer for protection. And when I walk in, I just freaking turn. It's, it's like I flip that switch.

Joe Rogan 27:32 Do you have a prayer that you say every time?

Kamaru Usman 27:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:34 You have the, the exact same thing?

Kamaru Usman 27:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:36 What do you say?

Kamaru Usman 27:37 Similar, along those lines. I ju- I basically, it's just a prayer for protection, prayer for me to be able to display the best of my abilities. It's never... I, 'cause I'm not selfish. It's not... I'm not getting in that prayer, "Please let me win." No, it, it's, "Please protect me in here so I can go back to my family safe and sound and protect my opponent as well. And give me the strength to be able to display the best of my abilities." And that's it. And once I freaking walk through that door, I am the freaking Nigerian Nightmare. I just, that's it.

Joe Rogan 28:11 You feel like a different person-

Kamaru Usman 28:12 I am.

Joe Rogan 28:13 ... when you walk onto the cage?

Kamaru Usman 28:13 I am. And you see it in my face. I'm, I'm good and dandy, but when I walk in, it goes away. I, I just, I transform into that person.

Joe Rogan 28:22 Yeah, I think a lot of people would be surprised at how friendly and easygoing you are outside.

Kamaru Usman 28:26 People can't tell. And that's the thing now is there's really... I haven't, I don't, I don't, there's no change in me. I'm still the same freaking guy. I, since... I haven't done anything since the fight. Nothing. People are like asking me, "Have you gone out and partied," and this and that, "with the belt?"

Joe Rogan 28:40 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 28:40 No, I haven't done shit. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:42 You sleep with it?

Kamaru Usman 28:43 I... No, my daughter, I bought it for my daughter.

Joe Rogan 28:46 Aw.

Kamaru Usman 28:46 My daughter did, but I didn't. I didn't do anything. I just sit on the couch, watch TV, go back, maybe go to the, uh, the shop that I like to take my daughter to get, uh, get french toast. She loves this one place. So I take her there, come back, that's it. Or maybe take her to a date night. The only difference is now a lot of people are starting to recognize me more. So like, I'm walking out of the movies and people will stop me, "Hey, can I get a picture? Can I get a picture?" Yeah, of course, you know, but nothing changed. I'm the same freaking guy. I haven't got a chance to do anything. I had surgery last Tuesday and I've been in bed for weeks, so I haven't done anything. But I don't think anything is gonna change. I'm the same guy, you know.

Joe Rogan 29:24 Well, you, you sound like you have the perfect attitude. Like the idea that you're having, making a prayer to just do your best and not be hurt and not have your opponent hurt and protect you and your opponent. That's, that is a beautiful attitude. And the fact that the way you're approaching this, I mean, you're just, you're just here to compete and to do your very best. All the, you- you're free of the burden of a lot of bullshit that some people carry around with them.

Kamaru Usman 29:51 Joe, a- and I was thinking about this on the way up is, um, a lot of, a lot of those fighters, a lot of those champions, like after a while you, you, they're, they feel this certain pressure-

Joe Rogan 30:02 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 30:03 ... to, to be able to do this or that.

Joe Rogan 30:05 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 30:06 A- and, and some of the examples that I gave is, there's so much pressure on Anderson Silva. I almost felt like he couldn't wait to lose.

Joe Rogan 30:12 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 30:12 It was just like a, it's like a pressure the way you just wanna put it down. And then, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:16 You know, Matthew said that to me when BJ Penn beat him.

Kamaru Usman 30:18 Yeah. You just, you just wanna get out of there.

Joe Rogan 30:19 He said it was just so much pressure to is actually honestly relieved.

Kamaru Usman 30:21 And I feel like it's, it was so much pressure. George St-Pierre ran away from the sport because of that pressure.

Joe Rogan 30:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 30:27 You know, some people... For me, I don't feel shit.

Joe Rogan 30:30 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 30:30 Like, (laughs) I was just, I was just thinking, I was like, "I don't care." Like, even, even look at this fight now, the Covington fight.

Joe Rogan 30:37 Right.

Kamaru Usman 30:37 Everyone's already bringing, making a big deal out of it. It's another fight for me. I don't even think of myself as, "Oh, you're the champion." I don't care. I just wanna beat this guy up.

Joe Rogan 30:47 Do you think that it, you will care though when the media obligations and all that shit happens? Or do you think you'll just be able to zen your way through all that shit?

Kamaru Usman 30:54 Um, I would be lying to say n- I would never care. I would be, I would- I think that would be doing an injustice. But I feel like... I go to cer- certain people, like I have some of my go-to people that I, I get to th- I call 'em my mental coaches. And like Rashad, the biggest thing with r- that I learned f- I talked to Rashad about is, Rashad was always pouring into me like, "Man, just enjoy, man. Enjoy the ride. You'll be okay with that feeling." Because there, there was a certain time where I was a little more nervous than usual. I was, I was nervous for what, one, I think, I can't remember the fight, and I was nervous. And Rashad was like, "Man, just make f- friends with that feeling. Be okay with it. Make friends with the feeling..."

Joe Rogan 31:34 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 31:35 ... o- of being like, understand that it's okay to feel that way.

Joe Rogan 31:39 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 31:40 And just be okay with it. And so that, I, I go back to those feelings. And even, there was this, an exercise when I was wrestling. I was living at the Olympic Training Center. I was training and I started feeling all this pressure that, that a lot of people put on me, "Oh, you're a division two guy. You can't be Olympic champion. You can't do this, you can't do that." And, uh, my coach at the time, Brendan Slade, was like, "Yeah, a lot of people made, you know, made, put that pressure on me when I was competing, too." And said that, "Oh, you're too short. You, you can't beat these guys. You can't beat Buvacis Sati- Satiev," the, you know, the most famous Russian wrestler of all time. And, and they were saying, "You can't beat him. You can't do this. You can't do that." And he said one exercise you should do is you'll think of all these negative thoughts, 'cause people start saying it in your mind. It, it's, it goes into your mind, you know, especially now when all these fans tweet shit and, and say stuff to you, you read it.

Joe Rogan 32:32 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 32:32 If you read it, it's in there. And so, one thing he said you should do is just put all those thoughts in a, just imagine this, envision this glass jar. You just put 'em all in the jar. Shut the lid, grab a big sledgehammer, and you just smash it. And it sounds silly, but I was like, "Uh." It wasn't until a little while after I started kinda doing that. So when I start doubting myself, "Man, can I do it? Can I do it? G- w- oh, man. This guy, he could beat me. I mean, what if he knocks me out and embarrasses me in front of everyone?" Then I might snap the fuck out of it, man. Put it in that jar, put it in that jar and smash it. I'm like, "Have fun with it, man. You're supposed to feel like this. Rashad said you're supposed to feel like this." Yeah, man. It's... Yeah, and I just take a deep breath, I smile, and I just, I snap back in. And Eddie Alvarez also is a, is like someone I consider a brother. These are the guys that, that I go to for when I'm starting to feel down. And I, I talked to Eddie quite a few times before this last fight. When I start feeling a little bit of pressure, I talk to them, and they just kinda, they snap me back.

Joe Rogan 33:33 Were you, we- were you getting frustrated that you weren't being considered amongst the top contenders when you were undefeated, you were dominating all these people, and you were seeing like, when the, when Wonderboy got two shots, and then, you know, you saw the Demian Maia fight, and these, all these other fights. Was that, was that hard for you?

Kamaru Usman 33:53 Yeah. It, it was. It was a time where, I'm not gonna lie, Joe. I was like, "Why the fuck am I doing this?" I'm e- you, I'm gonna keep fighting for 25 and 25?

Joe Rogan 34:05 Right.

Kamaru Usman 34:05 30 and 30?

Joe Rogan 34:06 Right.

Kamaru Usman 34:06 What? What? The thing is, what a lot of people don't understand is, they think, "Oh, man. It's that 15 minutes that you're out there, or that 25 minutes you're out there training, uh, fighting, and that's it. You know, you got paid 10 and 10." Bro, you just did, I just did a five-month training camp to where I had to eat right for five months.

Joe Rogan 34:25 For $20,000.

Kamaru Usman 34:26 Yes.

Joe Rogan 34:27 If you win.

Kamaru Usman 34:27 For, if you win. And on, on top of it, i- it's, that society's so backwards nowadays. To eat clean food is more expensive. So for me to j- just eat clean for five months, I'm already five, ten grand in the hole. On top of it, you got bills coming every month that's not going anywhere.

Joe Rogan 34:46 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 34:46 You know, that, just to train for these fights, I've spent more than that. And yeah, I've taken more damage than that, because that's when you really take damage. I'm sparring and when I, I fractured my foot, that happened the last week in training, my last sparring session. I kicked someone in the face. Boom, my foot's gone. You know?

Joe Rogan 35:05 How bad was the foot?

Kamaru Usman 35:06 It was, it was bad. It was, at first I just figured, you know, it's like Muay Thai, how you kick shins and elbows all the time-

Joe Rogan 35:12 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 35:12 ... and, you know, you get the little fractures. But that, you know, you w- work on it and that's gone in a week. But this one just wasn't going away. The swelling kept coming back and coming back. So I'm starting freaking out. I'm like, "Oh, shit. I think I really broke something." And, and so I start freaking out, and then a day or two, three days, four days, I get it worked on. I'm having a really special compression socks that I have on it the wh- at all time. And I'm icing this thing four times a day, and it's not going away. I'd wake up, the swelling would be bigger. I'm like, "Oh, man. I did damage." So, and then I kept walking on it, and I haven't... 'Cause I, I have to practice, because I gotta keep that weight down. I gotta keep that metabolism going.

Joe Rogan 35:50 Right.

Kamaru Usman 35:50 And so I'm just like, "Man, there's no way I'm not fighting." Like, you only get an opportunity once. If I call and say, "I'm pulling out of this," I might not ever get a shot again.

Joe Rogan 36:01 Right.

Kamaru Usman 36:02 And so I'm like, "I'm gonna fight." And there was no doubt in my mind o- of what I could do. I, I was just like, "It's gonna happen." I'm, I'm already dealing with the hernia situation.

Joe Rogan 36:13 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 36:13 And, and so I'm like, "Screw it." And, and the thing about me is I haven't ran in three years, Joe.I have not-

Joe Rogan 36:20 Because of your knees?

Kamaru Usman 36:20 Yeah, my knees are so bad. I have not ran in three years.

Joe Rogan 36:22 How the fuck do you have such good cardio? What are you doing for cardio?

Kamaru Usman 36:24 Oh, i- everything I do, I do freaking hard.

Joe Rogan 36:27 I guess.

Kamaru Usman 36:28 I do it freaking hard. I'm on that air diet, and- and-

Joe Rogan 36:30 Mm.

Kamaru Usman 36:30 ... man, shout out to my strength and conditioning coach, Dr. Cory Peacock. Man, he's also on it too. I mean, uh, Doc- Cory is, uh, we put in, we put in some time, man. And it's not just him, it's- it's my coaches. With Greg, Greg Jones, when we wrestle, we wrestle, I wrestle freaking hard. And when I- I can't do it often anymore, but I- I wrestle hard. When I hit pads-

Joe Rogan 36:51 Because of your knees?

Kamaru Usman 36:52 Yeah, when I hit pads, I hit pads hard with him. Everything that I do, in my mind, I try to do it at the speed that I would want to do it in a fight-

Joe Rogan 37:00 Right.

Kamaru Usman 37:00 ... or even greater, because my whole mentality is when you get tired, when people get tired, that's your threshold.

Joe Rogan 37:06 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 37:06 That's where you're at, so that's why your body feels like that, "Oh, I'm tired. This is as far as I can go." I try to get to that as fast as possible, boom, because then everything after that is extra.

Joe Rogan 37:17 Right.

Kamaru Usman 37:17 I just push, push that conditioning more and more and more. So I just freaking go hard. Everything that I do, I do it hard. Of course I do it smart, but I do it hard. But I haven't ran, Joe, in almost three years.

Joe Rogan 37:30 That's crazy, because one of the most impressive things about the fight is you never let your foot off the gas, and in the fourth round I think it was when you had Tyron Hurt, when you really started pouring it on, I was like, "Okay, he's trying to finish this fight. How- how much gas is he gonna have left in the tank?" 'Cause you know that sometimes when someone tries to finish someone and they can't, they're done.

Kamaru Usman 37:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:48 You know? You poured it on, you took a couple of deep breaths then, tsh, right back on him. I'm like, "Damn, that's some serious fucking cardio."

Kamaru Usman 37:56 Yeah, Joe, I was- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:57 'Cause you were sprinting.

Kamaru Usman 37:58 My- my- I- I watched that back. I was like, "What the fuck was I doing?" I was swinging like wild- wild, man, just because I saw the light at the end of the tunnel.

Joe Rogan 38:07 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 38:07 And I was like, you know, and I'm- I'm- it's like I was sprinting towards it, but then it kind of get dimmer and dimmer. I was like, "Oh, shit, fuck. Slow down."

Joe Rogan 38:15 Tyron's tough as fuck.

Kamaru Usman 38:15 "You're still gonna get there." Man, he was tough because-

Joe Rogan 38:18 He's tough as fuck. He ate some big shots.

Kamaru Usman 38:19 Man, uh, people didn't really see it, what happened, what started that transition. We were in the clin- I had him in a- in a Thai clinch, and I think he was trying to work on my body, and I hit him with a knee, I hit him with another knee, and in my mind I just remember some of the trainings that I've been through. I'd been in that situation in training, and, uh, I used to train with, uh, Cosmo Alexandre.

Joe Rogan 38:41 Mm.

Kamaru Usman 38:42 Muay Thai guy.

Joe Rogan 38:43 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 38:43 I mean, freaking amazing. And one thing that he would show me is how Muay Thai guys would sneak in elbows. And so I- I'm in there and I'm like, I'm- I'm- Tyron's not really getting out of this, so I'm like, "Freaking let me try it." And this elbow that you throw, it's a sideways elbow. And I'm in there, I throw a knee in, and I just threw the sideways elbow. And it doesn't s- look hard, it doesn't look crazy or anything like that, but it was like side of the head, and I just felt it land. And I'm l- I'm trying to, 'cause you gotta read fast.

Joe Rogan 39:14 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 39:14 So I'm trying to read him, I'm trying to assess him. I'm like, "Is he hurt?" 'Cause he kind of stumbled back, but Tyron has a very good poker face. So he has this nonchalant face on, and I'm trying to read him. I'm like, "Wait, wait." So I kind of fake a little fake at him to see if he's trying to set me up for a big shot, and I fake. He doesn't throw anything, he keeps standing there. I'm like, "Oh, shit." So I throw a jab and I throw a- a- a- a right hand, I threw it across his guard to hit him, and he really didn't, the fluke didn't change. It didn't look like he was out there. I was like, "Oh, shit, he's hurt. Freaking let's go. Let's" (laughs) "It's go time." And I remember I talked to Eddie Alvarez and I asked him why'd he freak out like that when he had already ate hurt, and Eddie was just like, "Man, I saw that light at the end of the tunnel and I just freaking, I had to empty the tank." And I'm like, "Fuck it, empty the tank. Let's go. This is my moment. Empty the tank." So I'm throwing like a madman and Tyron is taking it all, and he's tough as shit. I'm like, "Damn, he's not going down." And there was a couple times he was rocked, it looked like could've went down, and all I had to do is really settle back and hit him with clean shots. But I wasn't even fucking thinking about that. I was just like, "Get this guy out of here now. This is what I wanted to do. Put the stamp on it. Let's freaking do it."

Joe Rogan 40:32 It was a hell of a barrage.

Kamaru Usman 40:34 Yeah, and I'm throwing, I'm throwing, I'm throwing, and I'm like, (panting) (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 40:38 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 40:38 Red light, red light of the gas tank is on E. It's on E, it's on E, which is the only reason I even shot in to- for a shot. I was like-

Joe Rogan 40:46 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 40:46 And then I heard my coaches saying, "Take him down." (laughs) That's when they realized-

Joe Rogan 40:50 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 40:50 ... I wasn't freaking knocking him out. They were like, "Take it down." I was like, (gasps) "Let me grab his legs." And I grabbed his leg and tried to, but that was the thing, I can recover pretty quickly, so-

Joe Rogan 41:01 You recovered very quick because it was one of those pivotal moments in a fight where I was like, "Man, if Tyron doesn't go out here, how much does he have left?" You know?

Kamaru Usman 41:09 I knew, I- I was, I was scared 'cause I was like, I know he knows he's probably down three to four rounds.

Joe Rogan 41:14 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 41:15 And I knew, I was like, I was, I was in a sense waiting for him to just start-

Joe Rogan 41:19 Snap out of it.

Kamaru Usman 41:19 ... letting go.

Joe Rogan 41:20 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 41:20 To snap out of it, but that's the one thing, you- you never really give yourself enough credit with your game is, with my game is I feel like I, um, I put people in a- in a trance, in- in like a certain stage to where they're just no getting out of it. And I, and that- that's kind of been a knock on me. People are saying, "Oh, you're not finishing fights. You're not doing this. You're- you're not submitting guys. You're not knocking them out." This is my mentality on that, and it- and this has been since I was wrestling. As they were wrestling, you could pin guys really quick, do slick moves and pin guys. But then the guys would get up and say, "Oh, man, I never seen that move before. He caught me in a slick move, that's why he got me. Now, I'm- I'ma get him next time. I'ma do that. I'm gonna- I'ma get him." And the same thing with a fight, it's like, "Man, I had my hand down and he caught me sleeping, so he caught me with a shot. It was a lucky shot. He's not ever gonna do that shit to me. If I, next time I'm gonna get him." Or, "He caught me with a slick submission. I never seen that before. I'm gonna train for it next time and he's gonna, I'm- I'm stop him."My thing is, even in wrestling, what I always wanted to do is I wanted to tech fall guys in wrestling. And tech fall, what that means is, when you're beating someone w- by 15 points, you have a 15-point gap, they stop the match, because it's, uh, basically a skunk. Like you skunked this guy. Like he sucked. Uh, like you were beating him that bad, they had to stop it. That is my mentality. That is always what I strived for. And in 2011, I believe I l- uh, not 2011, 2009, I led the nation, division one, two and three, NAIA, or whatever, in tech falls. I think at one point me and Brent Metcalf was battling. Like every week I would look and see who had the most tech falls, and it w- it was me, it'd be him, it'd be me, him. And I had the most because that's m- was my goals. I wanted to skunk guys, because in their mind what it says is, "You can't fuck with that guy. There's, you can't hang with him. There was nothing you can do." It n- it didn't qu- it wasn't a quick pin, a lucky pin-

Narrator 43:18 Right.

Kamaru Usman 43:18 ... or, or this. Like he destroyed you. He just set levels apart, and that's what I do even in fighting now. I do the exact same thing, is I would much rather dominate you from start to finish. I wanna break you. I don't want, uh, when you think about fighting me again, it's not, you don't, I don't want you to, you, I want you to say, "Fuck. No, I don't, uh, sh- no. Shit, no. He, he beat me everywhere. He broke me. He took something from me." Because you're gonna think about... You only remember the fights you lose. You don't r- uh, like I've beaten so many guys in wrestling, I can't tell you, maybe 30 guys that I've beat in wrestling. I don't have no idea. But the ones you lose, you can almost tell everyone. And that's what my, my take on it. I wanna dominate you so bad, when you think about fighting me again, you don't. You say, "Fuck that. I'll pass on that fight." And so people are like, "Oh, man. This guy doesn't really finish guys," but how many guys want to fight me again? Not a lot of 'em.

Narrator 44:13 Do you have one loss in MMA?

Kamaru Usman 44:15 Yes, I do.

Narrator 44:16 One loss, right?

Kamaru Usman 44:17 Yeah, I have one loss.

Narrator 44:17 Who was it to?

Kamaru Usman 44:17 It was in my second fight. Um, uh, Caceres. I forget his name, uh, forget his first name. Um, it's the Cace- Jose... Is it Jose Caceres? His brother?

Narrator 44:31 Isn't it Alex Caceres?

Kamaru Usman 44:32 Alex, yeah, it's Jose Ca- his name's Jose Caceres. Alex Caceres-

Narrator 44:35 Is he Alex's brother?

Kamaru Usman 44:36 Old, I think it's older brother.

Narrator 44:37 Oh.

Kamaru Usman 44:38 Yeah. And, and, um, man, it was, uh, I took the fight on like, uh, two weeks notice or something like that, because it was like eight months in between, I fought my first fight and I thought, see that's the thing with m- with fighters coming into MMA now. This is a lesson to you guys. Everyone feels like, "Oh, I'm just gonna jump in and it's gonna be peachy. I'm gonna be getting fights every other week, every other month." N- no. So I fought my first fight and I thought, "Okay, this is great. My career is kickstarting. I'm gonna be doing fights never so often." I went through 20, like 22 opponents within my first fight before I got the second fight.

Narrator 45:13 Wow.

Kamaru Usman 45:13 Because now, you know, it's Google now. Everyone, f- "Oh, fuck."

Narrator 45:16 Right.

Kamaru Usman 45:16 "He's a national champion wrestler. Nah, I don't wanna fight that guy." 'Cause everyone wants to get to-

Narrator 45:19 Right.

Kamaru Usman 45:19 ... the UFC and they figure, oh, it's a best record. You wanna be undefeated to get to the UFC. So nobody wants to fight anyone that's hard.

Narrator 45:26 Right.

Kamaru Usman 45:27 And so of course at that point I was a wrestler. I could take anyone down and hold them down for three rounds and wouldn't fight. So everyone, no one wanted that fight. So it was months and months went by and then that fight came about and I was just like, "Shit, I'll take it." And I'ma be honest, I never grappled before that. I never did jujitsu. And so I figured, psh, I can wrestle my way through all this shit. Like man, fuck these guys. These guys are all low level guys. You know, look who I train with. I train with Rashad Evans and these guys.

Narrator 45:56 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 45:56 Those guys can't touch me. I get in the fight, I throw a one-two, his legs are there, like hit him with a one-two, boom, boom, double leg, like li- within 15 seconds. Boom, threw him down, full mount and I'm kinda throwing punches. I didn't really know what I was doing. I'm throwing punches and I'm trying to elbow him. And Jose Caceres is like, I think 6'2", 6'1", 6... I don't know. He's well taller than me. Long limbs. He throws his legs, I'm in full mount, he throws his legs around my body.

Narrator 46:28 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 46:29 I never seen no shit like that before. (laughs)

Narrator 46:31 Right. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 46:33 So (laughs) my mind at that time was like, "What is go- oh, shit. What, what's this shit?" I, I didn't even know what to do. So I'm like, uh, so I start kinda panicking in my mind. I don't know what to do. I'm like, "Fucking get out," which is what you don't do.

Narrator 46:48 Right.

Kamaru Usman 46:48 So I turn my body. I'm trying to like get up and walk out, which is what you don't do. And so he just basically climbed up my back. Boom. We're not even sweating yet. Boom, he's on my back, I'm standing up with a backpack on. He's six s- something. He has a foot on the ground, one foot wrapped around me. He's fighting for the choke. And I, I think I hold him off for another like minute and a half. I'm standing and I'm fighting this choke all the while I'm thinking like, "Oh, shit."

Narrator 47:21 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 47:22 I can't go down 'cause I don't know what the fuck I'm doing down there as well.

Narrator 47:25 Right.

Kamaru Usman 47:26 So I don't really know the defense down there. So if I go down, that just might make it worse. I don't know the defense and this dude looks like he knows what he's doing behind me. He's got a few more f- he's had a few fights and I'm, I'm kinda scared and I'm fighting it. Now I'm standing up. My feet are getting heavy. It's getting shaky. I- I'm like, "Uh, I'm, I'm a strong guy. Why the fuck are my feet shaking?" Because they're starting to fill up with blood. My adrenaline is pumping and I'm just like, "Oh, shit. I'm about to lose."

Narrator 47:59 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 47:59 (laughs) Joe, there's this moment in your mind to where you start to come to realization with certain things.

Narrator 48:04 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 48:05 I'm like, "Oh, shit. I'm about to lose." And what, and then I start thinking about random thoughts and one of the thoughts that I thought, uh, thought about was... Before the fight, we had a commission meeting in the back and the commission said, "If you get choked unconscious, you're suspended for six months. So you can't fight for six months."'Cause in my mind, I'm like, "Fuck this, I'm a tough guy, I'm- I- you gotta put me to sleep. I ain't never tapping."

Narrator 48:33 Right.

Kamaru Usman 48:34 So, I'm like, "If I get..." It took me eight months to get this fight. And this is short notice fight. I haven't made money in eight months. I'm broke as shit. I sleep in Ra- I- I'm- I live with Rashad. I live with another man. I'm broke as shit, I have no money. I need money. So, if I can't fight for another six months, I have no money. So, all these thoughts are going through my mind, and I hear Alex Caceres on the other side of the cage screaming, "He's gonna tap! He's almost out!" And I'm like, "Fuck!"

Narrator 49:09 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 49:09 "Am I gonna tap?" (laughs)

Narrator 49:12 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 49:13 I'm like, "Fucking well played, Alex. Now I'm thinking about tapping just for that shit."

Narrator 49:19 Ugh.

Kamaru Usman 49:19 Oh, man. And I- and I just saw it going down and I'm like, "You can't be suspended for six months, bro. I know you wanna be tough right now and you wanna go to sleep, but you can't be suspended for six months, bro. You have to- you gotta, you know, you gotta make money. You're broke." I fucking tapped, yo. I fucking tapped. I never felt so... I don't wanna say, emasculated, if that's the word?

Narrator 49:43 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 49:43 I never felt so, like, sh- like, I just- that's why I said, like, win or lose, it takes something from you. And I walked out of that fight, I went to the back. I paced for, like, maybe two, three hours in the back. All the fights fi- finished up and I finally went to the locker room and got my stuff and- and came out. But I just paced back and forth. And the feeling in my mind was, "I am never gonna feel like this again. I do not ever wanna feel like this." And ever since then, I got a fucking gi.

Narrator 50:12 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 50:12 I never had a gi before. I got a gi. I started training with George Santiago, my Jiu-Jitsu coach-

Narrator 50:17 Beautiful, man.

Kamaru Usman 50:17 ... every fucking morning. I was like, "Bro, I'm-"

Narrator 50:18 I saw he gave you your black belt after the fight.

Kamaru Usman 50:20 He gave me my black- bro.

Narrator 50:21 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 50:21 And- and this is the thing, is I never- I- I never worried about that. I never worried about... Like, yes, I was freaking beating up blue belts before I was even a white belt. Like, yeah, 'cause I never did that skill.

Narrator 50:34 Right.

Kamaru Usman 50:34 Trained in Jiu-Jitsu skills. But, like, I knew how to grapple through certain things.

Narrator 50:40 Sure.

Kamaru Usman 50:40 You know, I'd been grappling at a hard- high level, but j- it wasn't just Jiu-Jitsu. So, he kept challenging me. Like, I was always... 'Cause I want- I wanna be that guy, I wanna be the freaking blue belt that freaking works all the brown and black belts. But he would freaking promote me. He's like, "Purple belt. Because you've been training, you trained in a gi, I'm gonna promote you." So he kept challenging me and challenging me, so now people knew... I felt like all he was doing was alerting people of what to expect-

Narrator 51:07 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 51:07 ... when they went with me and for them to try to- to really fuck me up. And so he promoted me, um, I think a couple years ago. It was, uh, brown belt. He promo- I think maybe two and a half, three years ago. And, um, and then he promoted me to black belt. He just asked me to come in the gym. I didn't really even know. I just felt like, okay, man, he wants everyone to take pictures with the belt. And, uh, he freaking gives me my black belt. Another thing, just floored me. I was like, "Shit, I never knew... I never expected all this." I just wanted to fucking compete.

Narrator 51:39 Right.

Kamaru Usman 51:40 I just wanted to be a martial artist, learn all this stuff and compete. I never knew that I would get a black belt. I never knew that I would win the- the championship belt and be the best in the world at this. I- at that time. So I never knew all that.

Narrator 51:52 How much did you adjust your training, um, to incorporate Jiu-Jitsu? Did you add more training sessions or did you substitute?

Kamaru Usman 51:59 Abso-freaking-lutely. I- I would- what I would do is... 'Cause I was living with Rashad at the time. So, what I would do is I would somehow get to the gym, 'cause Rashad was traveling a lot. This was at the height, he was doing a lot of different shows and stuff. And so, I would go to the gym at 7:00 AM. We'd have 7:00 AM practice. I think Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays George would have a class and I would go and take that class. And then our pro class was, I think it was at 9:00. So I would just stay at the gym while the pros came in for the practice at 9:00. So I would go through that class as well. And then after that, whether lift on my own, strengthen conditioning right after that. And dumbass me, and that's what I'm saying, I was 20 something at that time, I wasn't eating in between all the sessions. I wasn't doing any of this. I was just freaking going, going, going, going, going.

Narrator 52:49 So you'd eat breakfast and that was it?

Kamaru Usman 52:51 I- I- I didn't eat breakfast at that time.

Narrator 52:52 You didn't even eat breakfast?

Kamaru Usman 52:53 I didn't even eat breakfast. I would get up cold, go to the gym, work out. Then go roll into the next session and work out. Then roll into strength and conditioning, whatever I did on my own, work out.

Narrator 53:03 No food?

Kamaru Usman 53:04 No food. And then freaking go home, eat a big meal, snap, then go back for the night session.

Narrator 53:11 True.

Kamaru Usman 53:11 Night practice. And that's how it was for a long, long time. And Rashad was- would always come home and say, "Hey man, why don't you come out with me this weekend? Let's- let's go out, let's go do something." And I was always like, "Nah man, I gotta train on Monday, man. I don't wanna do all that. I don't wanna go out." And Rashad would be like, "Bro, there's- you gotta have balance in this. There's gotta be a balance." And I just thought at that time, like, "Oh, fuck that. You say that 'cause you're the top, you the champ, you're the best. So, you say that." My whole thing was I'm just need to work. I need to catch up. I need to catch up to these guys. I need to work. So I was just doing overtime, overtime, overtime. But, you know, now I understand what Rashad was saying. There has to be balance.

Narrator 53:51 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 53:51 Absolutely.

Narrator 53:51 When did you adjust your eating?

Kamaru Usman 53:55 I think, um, we got a strength and conditioning coach, Jake Bonnot- Bonacchi. And Jake, amazing coach, man. Uh, he worked with a lot of the Xtreme Couture guys. Worked with, like, Randy and those guys back in the day. And, uh, he kind of started like, "You- you gotta fuel yourself." He kind of started, you know, letting me in. And- and I seek... That's the thing about me. I seek knowledge. Like, I'm always- I always wanna learn. I always want to learn whatever I can. And I started learning like, "Oh, shit, no wonder I was dead tired in that session. No wonder I had nothing left." 'Cause I really just didn't eat. I had no, you know, fuel. So I started kind of putting things in and- and then more and more... Like I said, it wasn't until my last two or three fights that I started working with Trifecta and- and Clint Wittenberg and just, you know, I seek knowledge if- whenever I can get knowledge, I-... I take it.

Joe Rogan 54:46 So, these Trifecta folks, what kind of stuff do they prepare for you?

Kamaru Usman 54:48 Man, they prepare my meals and they, they send it to me. They send me the- like I said, I like to cook for myself, so-

Joe Rogan 54:54 Like, so they send you, like, a cooler of prepackaged food?

Kamaru Usman 54:56 Yeah. They send, they send me the prepackaged food, but I'm not so much into the prepackaged stuff, like, you know, just throwing in the microwave and eating it. I'm not so much like that 'cause I like, I like hot food. I want it to feel fresh. So, they'll send me, like, the packages, like, the protein and the chicken and, and the s- the steak or, or the fish and things like that. And basically, I take it out and my responsibility to take it out, I, I think it's pre-cooked, but I take it out and I put it over to the stove and make some, you know, veggies with it and other stuff that I want with it, and, and I'll cook it that way. So, it seems more like a, a fresh meal-

Joe Rogan 55:31 Right.

Kamaru Usman 55:31 ... even though it's kind of pre-made, just for my mind.

Joe Rogan 55:34 Right. I get it. I get it.

Kamaru Usman 55:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:35 So, um, do they have it broken down with a certain amount of calories for each meal, dependent upon what kind of working out you're doing?

Kamaru Usman 55:42 Yeah, man. Clint, Clint broke it down. I- I give him my schedule for the week and he breaks it down, like, "This is what you need to eat. Four servings of protein, four servings of carb, fats, and this and that, before your weightlifting session, before you're sparring, before this. You need this, this amount of sugar and this amount of this-

Joe Rogan 55:59 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 55:59 ... and this amount of that." Man, it made a big difference 'cause I would... There'd be certain practice, like s- I would lift and I'm like, "Fucking yeah, I feel good. I wanna get out of there." To where usually I hit a wall, like, boom.

Joe Rogan 56:10 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 56:11 "Fucking this is miserable."

Joe Rogan 56:12 You were getting by on toughness?

Kamaru Usman 56:14 And I'd just grind through it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:14 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 56:14 I just, I just grind through it.

Joe Rogan 56:16 That UFC Performance Institute is amazing. It's just incredible what they did. I mean, when they were just talking about building that, I was like, "What is this gonna be? Like, what are they doing there? Oh, they're spending a lot of money."

Kamaru Usman 56:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:26 Who knows what the fuck it's gonna be. But then, uh, they took me on a tour of it and I was like, "This is literally the ultimate training facility."

Kamaru Usman 56:32 In 10 years, it is still be ye- up to date. It'll still be like-

Joe Rogan 56:37 It's fucking incredible.

Kamaru Usman 56:37 ... "Okay, this thing is now catching up."

Joe Rogan 56:39 They have napping pods. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 56:42 Like, it's so far ahead. I know. I know. (laughs) They took me there. I was like, "Bro-

Joe Rogan 56:45 They play some music in there.

Kamaru Usman 56:46 ... "I could just live here."

Joe Rogan 56:47 Yeah, I know, right?

Kamaru Usman 56:47 You could literally live there.

Joe Rogan 56:49 Well, a lot of people relocated to Vegas just to make that the center of their training.

Kamaru Usman 56:52 Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've seen-

Joe Rogan 56:53 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 56:53 ... like, Claudia Gadelha is down there.

Joe Rogan 56:55 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 56:55 Um-

Joe Rogan 56:55 Francis Ngannou did a lot of training.

Kamaru Usman 56:57 Francis Ngannou, of course.

Joe Rogan 56:57 But he trained for his last fight in France, I believe.

Kamaru Usman 57:01 Yeah, his, his last two fights he did it in France.

Joe Rogan 57:03 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 57:05 And, um... Yeah, we, we, you know, like, that's my boy. Like, we, we talk all the time and, um-

Joe Rogan 57:10 That's the scariest heavyweight of all time.

Kamaru Usman 57:12 Like, I don't understand what people are... P- a lot of people, like, especially after those last couple fights, the Derrick Lewis fights, people were like, like, these fans, man. They were condemning him, like, "This guy is..." And, and-

Joe Rogan 57:26 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 57:26 And, and I g-

Joe Rogan 57:26 But it's one of those things you just gotta give, you gotta give him time to recover from the Stipe fight.

Kamaru Usman 57:31 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:31 He had the psychological-

Kamaru Usman 57:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:33 ... block.

Kamaru Usman 57:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:33 But he got over it with, with Curtis Blaydes.

Kamaru Usman 57:36 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:37 I mean, he stopped Curtis Blaydes, who was one of the best guys in the heavyweight division. Curtis is a big guy.

Kamaru Usman 57:41 Beast. Curtis was a beast as well.

Joe Rogan 57:42 He's a beast.

Kamaru Usman 57:43 And, and even for this fight, everyone's like, "Oh, Cain's going, Cain's gonna do him. Cain's gonna do... Cain's a better version of Stipe." And, and I get it. Like, I understand Cain, Cain is the greatest we've ever, heavyweight we've ever s- really seen. You know? I mean, you know, DC right now is- that's an argument too, you know? But Cain was great, but Cain's been gone for almost three years, two and a half years.

Joe Rogan 58:08 A lot of surgeries.

Kamaru Usman 58:08 A long time. And people are putting all this pressure on him that, expecting him to come back and be the same old Cain, like nothing happened.

Joe Rogan 58:16 Right.

Kamaru Usman 58:17 And I'm like, "Guys, like..." And, and then, not to come back, come back against the scariest heavyweight we've ever seen.

Joe Rogan 58:24 Ever.

Kamaru Usman 58:25 Ever. I mean-

Joe Rogan 58:26 I'm gonna just, just clip you a little bit.

Kamaru Usman 58:27 Frances, the first time he lifted weights was with me.

Joe Rogan 58:30 What?

Kamaru Usman 58:31 Frances never touched weights.

Joe Rogan 58:34 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 58:34 Ever.

Joe Rogan 58:36 That's... (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 58:36 And, and that, and that's the scary thing. You go to Africa and there, there's thou- there's millions of guys like, like that walking around.

Joe Rogan 58:42 I was saying that his story is like a, it's like that Conan scene where Conan was, like, pushing the wheel.

Kamaru Usman 58:48 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:48 Like, he was, he was working in a sand mine, just digging sand-

Kamaru Usman 58:52 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:52 ... and becoming this tank of a man. It's crazy. It's-

Kamaru Usman 58:55 Yeah, I mean-

Joe Rogan 58:55 ... obviously superior genetics on top of that because you don't get to be 265 naturally.

Kamaru Usman 59:02 Yes.

Joe Rogan 59:02 Just, I mean, you have to have fantastic genetics. He's got that too, but his ability to land punches that just put people away with, like, he can graze you and fuck you up.

Kamaru Usman 59:13 Absolutely. And, and his speed too.

Joe Rogan 59:16 Ugh.

Kamaru Usman 59:17 People, like, I tried to-

Joe Rogan 59:18 That fucking Alistair Overeem left hook.

Kamaru Usman 59:19 I tried to spar with him. I tried to spar with him once. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:23 (laughs) You were 170.

Kamaru Usman 59:25 It, it was-

Joe Rogan 59:25 Why are you sparring with him?

Kamaru Usman 59:27 I mean, it was just playing around, and that's the thing in our room, like, everybody spars with everybody.

Joe Rogan 59:31 Right.

Kamaru Usman 59:31 And he loves sparring with smaller guys. He loves it.

Joe Rogan 59:34 Because of speed.

Kamaru Usman 59:35 And it's not, yeah, because it's not, he's not trying to hurt anyone.

Joe Rogan 59:37 Right.

Kamaru Usman 59:37 He's not trying to hurt you, but it's just, he likes working on his speed. He's so fast. I think he's faster than me (snorts) for s- like, I'm, I mean, it, it's-

Joe Rogan 59:48 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 59:48 And I'm like, "Wha- is that fast-

Joe Rogan 59:51 That's so, that's so crazy.

Kamaru Usman 59:51 ... with that much power?" I mean, if he even, and, and I said what I say, if he touched anywhere near this circumference right here-

Joe Rogan 59:57 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 59:58 ... you're gonna wake up and ask what happened.

Joe Rogan 59:59 Well, that's what- Cain was saying that he was, he didn't remember what happened when Frances, Frances apparently grazed him-

Kamaru Usman 1:00:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 ... with the first punch near the back of his, of his head and Cain doesn't remember shit after that.

Kamaru Usman 1:00:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:11 And then clipped him with that uppercut on the inside.

Kamaru Usman 1:00:14 Everyone was saying, like, "Oh, he hurt his knee. That's what happened." No, he got hit with a punch in there.

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 He got hit with an uppercut.

Kamaru Usman 1:00:18 It was a qui- it was a small-

Joe Rogan 1:00:19 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 1:00:19 ... sharp punch.

Joe Rogan 1:00:20 That's all it takes with that guy.

Kamaru Usman 1:00:21 But... (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:22 Yeah. What's, what's amazing that Stipe weathered the storm. That's what's amazing. Is 'cause y- you gotta give credit to Stipe.

Kamaru Usman 1:00:28 Stipe is a beast.

Joe Rogan 1:00:28 I mean, 'cause Stipe wea- weathered the storm when Frances was convinced that he was gonna put Stipe away after the Overeem destruction. I mean, he put Overeem into orbit.

Kamaru Usman 1:00:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 So, to watch that was like, "Holy shit." And you think the striking credentials of Alistair. I mean, Alistair is GLORY Heavyweight Champion, Strikeforce Heavyweight Champion, K-1 Grand Prix. I mean, he won-... the three of the most prestigious titles in combat sports. And to have Francis clip him like that was just, like, Jesus.

Kamaru Usman 1:01:01 That goes to attest to MMA.

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 1:01:03 This is why the sport's so great.

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 1:01:05 It doesn't matter where you come from, what you, what, whether you're-

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 It's different.

Kamaru Usman 1:01:08 ... good at s- whether you're good at it. It's, it doesn't matter. Those f-

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 1:01:12 With those four-ounce gloves an, and then being able to wrestle and grapple and do all this-

Joe Rogan 1:01:17 Yep.

Kamaru Usman 1:01:17 ... everything cha- it's an even playing field for everybody.

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 Yeah. Now, if he just gets his wrestling on point, I mean, he's, it's, he, it's crazy that he's only been doing MMA, all totaled, for what, five years now?

Kamaru Usman 1:01:30 Yeah, five, six years.

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 That's crazy.

Kamaru Usman 1:01:33 Yeah. I mean, I made the switch around the same time. We had our first official UFC fight the same time.

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 Wow.

Kamaru Usman 1:01:40 Yeah, in Orlando.

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 What was your first year of your first fight? What was your first fight?

Kamaru Usman 1:01:44 My first fight I think was in 2013 or 2012.

Joe Rogan 1:01:49 So seven years ago, which is crazy.

Kamaru Usman 1:01:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:51 And how much striking had you done before your first fight?

Kamaru Usman 1:01:56 Not a lot. I mean, I meant, the thing with me is, like, I used to watch videos. When I was convinced myself, like, I was gonna start doing this, and this is, uh, years in the making. Like I was, I coached on season 14 of The Ultimate Fighter with, uh, Bisping and, uh, Mayhem Miller. I was, uh, Mayhem's wrestling coach.

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 Wow.

Kamaru Usman 1:02:14 So, and that was the season with TJ Dillashaw-

Joe Rogan 1:02:17 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 1:02:17 ... John Dodson, Dennis Bermudez-

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 1:02:19 ... and all these guys. And so at that point I had started to, uh, shout out to Ryan Parsons, man, uh, Dr. Parsons, uh, one who brought me in. He was managing Mayhem at the time. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:02:30 I love Ryan.

Kamaru Usman 1:02:31 Yeah, Ryan's a good guy.

Joe Rogan 1:02:32 He's a good dude.

Kamaru Usman 1:02:33 Super good guy, man. I loved Ryan. And, uh, and I was, you know, I'd fiddle with it. I s- you know, I'd throw it in my hands a little bit, like, "Yeah, I'm gonna-

Joe Rogan 1:02:40 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 1:02:40 ... do this one day," you know? And just kinda playing around and playing around with it. And so I loved boxing, I loved watching all that stuff. I was like, "Man," you know, "maybe I'll do this stuff one day." But when I watched those guys go through The Ultimate Fighter, being here in Vega- uh, being in Vegas and in the house, I was like, "Yeah, no way. I'm not doing that shit."

Joe Rogan 1:03:00 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 1:03:00 Never. Not doing it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 Even back then you were thinking, "I'm just gonna wrestle."

Kamaru Usman 1:03:05 Yeah. I, uh, 'cause at that time, I was living at the Olympic Training Center.

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 1:03:08 I was training for the Olympics.

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 Right.

Kamaru Usman 1:03:09 I was like, "Yeah, I ain't gonna do this shit. Nah, it's not possible."

Joe Rogan 1:03:12 So what was it that flipped the switch?

Kamaru Usman 1:03:14 Rashad.

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Really?

Kamaru Usman 1:03:15 Rashad. Um, the same time, I think 2011, I was still at the Olympic Training Center, I had gone back and, um, just training. And I was friends with King Mo. I've known King Mo ever since I was in high school. And funnier thing is like, man, like, we were so connected because we were from similar pa- we were walking similar paths. King Mo is from, like, African descent. So am I. And he wrestled in Texas, and so was I in high school. And then he's a Division II guy. I went Division II. He was a national champ, I was a national champ. And, you know, walking a similar path. So I was, I just felt connected to King Mo, so I would always talk to him. I looked up to those guys, King Mo and, and DC, and they were like, you know, the, the Black dudes that you look up to. 'Cause there weren't a lot of Black wrestlers.

Joe Rogan 1:04:06 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 1:04:06 So they was the dudes that we looked up to. It was like, "Yeah, man, King Mo." So he was, been doing MMA, I think at that time he was the Strikeforce champion.

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 1:04:14 And so King Mo calls me, uh, and my friend Jake Fisher, who was a World Team member at the time. He's like, "Hey, you guys wanna come down to Denver and train with us? You know, me, I'm gonna train that night." Of course, I'm gonna go, yeah. Train with King Mo, my boy. I get to see him, you know? So we go down. This is the first time I've ever been starstruck in my life. And this was now I've been watching MMA now, you know, done the show and all these things. So we get down there and we're in the dressing room. I'm y- you know, I'm just thinking King Mo's coming and we're gonna work out with him. It was me, Fisher, TC Danzler, and another kid named Bo. And we're in the dressing room, we're changing, and it was Joe Warren's gym. We're changing-

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 Shout out to Joe Warren.

Kamaru Usman 1:04:59 Shout out to Joe Warren, man. Badass dude.

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 He's a funny dude.

Kamaru Usman 1:05:03 Yeah. And we're, we're changing, and all of a sudden, you know, I'm changing, I look back. Rashad Evans walks in the fucking dressing room. And, uh, I'd never been starstruck in my life. I was just like, "Oh shit, that's Rashad Evans. Oh shit." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:18 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 1:05:19 So of course, you know, I had to play it cool.

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 Right.

Kamaru Usman 1:05:21 I can't be that dude, you know? I ain't no fanboy. But I'm thinking in my mind, "Oh shit, that's fucking Rashad Evans. I just watched this dude fight Rampage and they do The Ultimate Fighter and all this joint." Like, "Oh shit, that's Rashad." So we get, we get back out and now we're training together and we're wrestling. I just couldn't believe how, you know, good... To this day, he can fucking lie and say he g- took me down.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 1:05:43 He didn't get one takedown that training session. I freaking took him down several times, ran him off the mat, but the one thing that I couldn't, uh, I was impressed by how good of a wrestler he was. Then I started doing my research. I was like, "Oh, he actually wrestled, he was a wrestler at Michigan State. He was a two-time JUCO champion." Like, he was a wrestler. And I couldn't believe how good he was. But then after that session, we sat on the mat and we just talked. And, t- keep in mind, my whole mind is like, "Shit, I'm talking to a superstar here."

Joe Rogan 1:06:17 Right.

Kamaru Usman 1:06:18 And he was at the top of the game. And I couldn't believe, like we talked like we were brothers, like we was homies, like we've been best friends for a long time.

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 He's a great guy.

Kamaru Usman 1:06:27 Man, I mean, uh, I, I could... He floored me. And I was just like, "Shit," like, "That's Rashad Evans." Gave me his number after that. Gave me his number and was like, "Bro, yeah, like, hit me up. What you, what you doing? What you gonna do tonight?" I was like, "Oh, we got, we gotta drive by to Colorado Springs." He's like, "Oh, okay. Well, I'll be back in Denver. I'm gonna hit you up, you know." Talk like we were boys. And of course, I'm like, it's like y- you're holding the piece of paper with his number on it, I'm like, "Oh shit, that's Rashad's number." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:57 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 1:06:57 (laughs) So, I go home. It's like, "Do I wait two days to text him? Do I, do I ... What do I do?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:04 Like a chick. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 1:07:06 Yeah. (laughs) Like a chick. I'm like, "What do I do?"

Joe Rogan 1:07:08 Oh.

Kamaru Usman 1:07:08 "Oh, shit. There's Rashad's number." It's just sitting on my desk.

Joe Rogan 1:07:11 That's hilarious.

Kamaru Usman 1:07:11 I walk by it, I look at it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:15 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 1:07:16 So, uh, he... A week goes by and he freaking texts me. He just texts me out of the blue, like, "Yo, what up, man?" Like, "What's up? Uh, I'm gonna be in Denver this next, you know, next month." Or something like that. "Why don't you come do a training with me?" I was like, "Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure." So I went and trained with him again, um, just, you know, hung out for a little bit. And then he started ... And I... It became regular. He would text me regularly, like, "Hey, I got a fight coming up. I'm about to fight Phil Davis. I'm gonna bring you down in Florida with me to train with me for two weeks." Fuck, you gonna fly me to Florida to train with you? "Yeah. Yeah, of course, I'm down." So now I became, like, part of his training arsenal. And every time I ... That's the