JRE MMA Show #71 with Rico Verhoeven

1. 0:01 – 0:52

   Setting the stage: Badr Hari rematch and why it’s massive for kickboxing

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      And boom. Right when you take a drink of water, that's when we go live, always. (laughs)

   2. RVRico Verhoeven0:05

      That's when we go live, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      What's up, my friend?

   4. RVRico Verhoeven0:07

      I'm good.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      Good to see you. Good to see you.

   6. RVRico Verhoeven0:09

      Yeah. Thanks for having me, bro.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      My pleasure. I'm a big fan. I've been a fan for a long time.

   8. RVRico Verhoeven0:12

      Thank you so much.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      And I'm very excited about this Badr Hari rematch.

   10. RVRico Verhoeven0:14

       Yes.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:14

       So w- we were just talking about it.

   12. RVRico Verhoeven0:16

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:16

       That's gonna be in December.

   14. RVRico Verhoeven0:17

       Yes, sir.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:18

       Yeah.

   16. RVRico Verhoeven0:18

       It's gonna be huge. It's, uh, I think it's, uh, gonna be the biggest fight in kickboxing history.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:22

       I think it's already.

   18. RVRico Verhoeven0:23

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:23

       I mean, you were just saying that, that tickets go on pre-sale today, I think?

   20. RVRico Verhoeven0:27

       Yeah, today or tomorrow or something, so.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   22. RVRico Verhoeven0:29

       Um ...

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       Where is it gonna be held? Is it in Holland?

   24. RVRico Verhoeven0:32

       It, uh ... Yeah, it's gonna be in Holland, yeah, so-

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       Where at?

   26. RVRico Verhoeven0:34

       Um, it's called the Gelredome and it-

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       How many seats is that?

   28. RVRico Verhoeven0:39

       I believe around 25,000, 30,000.

   29. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Wow.

   30. RVRico Verhoeven0:44

       So that's huge.
2. 0:52 – 2:43

   Why kickboxing hasn’t exploded in America (and rules that affect fan appeal)

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:52

      It's so weird. I d- I do not, for the life of me, understand why it hasn't taken off in America. I don't get it.

   2. RVRico Verhoeven0:59

      Well, I think i- the- the step of going to MMA then to kickboxing is so much closer. P- for example, from high school, it's so much more logical f- w- when you do wrestling-

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:12

      Right.

   4. RVRico Verhoeven1:12

      ... and you do a little bit of boxing, well, let's jump into MMA then-

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:15

      Right.

   6. RVRico Verhoeven1:15

      ... because it's so close to each other and when you go to kickboxing, it's totally different.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:20

      Right.

   8. RVRico Verhoeven1:20

      It's totally different.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:21

      But so many people in America, when they watch MMA, they want guys to stand up.

   10. RVRico Verhoeven1:25

       (laughs) Yeah, I know, but-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:27

       That's why it doesn't make any sense.

   12. RVRico Verhoeven1:28

       ... but still, I think, like, every country is, like, very patriotic. They want their own guys-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       Right.

   14. RVRico Verhoeven1:34

       ... to- to be very good at something.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:36

       Sort of. But, like, when Anderson Silva was at the top of the heap in- in MMA, everybody wanted to see him fight.

   16. RVRico Verhoeven1:43

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:43

       It didn't matter that he was from Brazil.

   18. RVRico Verhoeven1:45

       Yeah, that's true.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:45

       In America, they still wanted to see him fight. It's just ... They wanna see high level stuff. I just-

   20. RVRico Verhoeven1:49

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:50

       Ooh, everyone here is such a fan of knockouts-

   22. RVRico Verhoeven1:53

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:53

       ... and k- and striking, high level striking. I just don't understand it.

   24. RVRico Verhoeven1:56

       No.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:57

       Muay Thai, too. You c- m- Muay Thai doesn't sell at all.

   26. RVRico Verhoeven2:00

       No.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:00

       I mean, there's no big Muay Thai events.

   28. RVRico Verhoeven2:03

       Nope.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:03

       Like, they had a m- a pro Muay Thai league event here and it was in, like, Nicky Holzken fought on it and, um, Buakaw and, uh, a few other big name guys-

   30. RVRico Verhoeven2:16

       Mm-hmm.
3. 2:43 – 4:27

   Elbows, cuts, and safety: striking rules and fight longevity

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:43

      I get that, but I like clinch work too and I like elbows. Elbows and knees in the clinch. You don't like it?

   2. RVRico Verhoeven2:49

      No.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:49

      No?

   4. RVRico Verhoeven2:49

      I like the knees, but the elbows-

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:52

      No elbows?

   6. RVRico Verhoeven2:52

      No, uh ...

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:52

      Too many cuts?

   8. RVRico Verhoeven2:53

      They're nasty, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:54

      Yeah.

   10. RVRico Verhoeven2:54

       Very nasty, so ...

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:55

       Cuts are nasty.

   12. RVRico Verhoeven2:56

       Yeah. So I ...

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:58

       What do you think about how, like, the amateur Muay Thai guys have elbow pads?

   14. RVRico Verhoeven3:02

       Yeah, that- that's- that's ... I think that's good.

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:03

       They're prob- A- and all that's p- prevent- For people who don't understand what we're talking about, it's weird that, uh, like, uh, we see, you can t- you can see with bare knuckle boxing-

   16. RVRico Verhoeven3:11

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:11

       Like, there's a lot of bare knuckle boxing f- matches now and you see these guys' faces are just getting destroyed.

   18. RVRico Verhoeven3:15

       Yes.

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:16

       I mean, they're just ripped apart.

   20. RVRico Verhoeven3:17

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:17

       It's crazy. Just the cuts.

   22. RVRico Verhoeven3:19

       Not healthy. (laughs) No.

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:20

       No, it's not ... It's definitely not good for the longevity of your career.

   24. RVRico Verhoeven3:23

       No.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:24

       And so in amateur Muay Thai, they have these elbow pads that they wear and that would ... I mean, you still can knock guys out just as easily.

   26. RVRico Verhoeven3:31

       Yeah, yeah. For sure.

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:31

       But you're not gonna get the cuts.

   28. RVRico Verhoeven3:32

       Exactly.

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:33

       Cuts are the big thing.

   30. RVRico Verhoeven3:34

       So I think that's- that's a- that's a good thing.
4. 4:27 – 5:51

   Could Rico do MMA? Heavyweight opportunity, motivation, and timelines

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:27

      You've had a couple MMA fights, right, homie?

   2. RVRico Verhoeven4:28

      One, one.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:29

      Just one?

   4. RVRico Verhoeven4:29

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:29

      And you mounted the guy.

   6. RVRico Verhoeven4:31

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:31

      That was what was crazy.

   8. RVRico Verhoeven4:32

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:32

      He took him to the ground.

   10. RVRico Verhoeven4:33

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:33

       Yeah.

   12. RVRico Verhoeven4:34

       Uh, I was like, "Let's- let's give it a try." When we're in-

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:36

       (laughs)

   14. RVRico Verhoeven4:36

       When we're in there, we gotta try everything.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:38

       But when I saw it, I was like, "Damn, if he makes his way to MMA ..." Because the heavyweight division, particularly in the UFC, is extremely shallow.

   16. RVRico Verhoeven4:46

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:46

       Extremely shallow. I mean, you have some great talent, but there's, like, four, five really good fighters.

   18. RVRico Verhoeven4:51

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:51

       You know? It's like there's obviously Cormier, there's Stipe, uh, Francis Ngannou, there's a few other guys, but it's y- you know, with a couple of wins, you're in the- the mix for a heavyweight title shot.

   20. RVRico Verhoeven5:03

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:04

       You know? Have you ever thought about doing that?

   22. RVRico Verhoeven5:06

       Uh, I've thought about it.

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:07

       Thought about it?

   24. RVRico Verhoeven5:07

       (laughs) Thought about it.

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:08

       How old- You're still young, right?

   26. RVRico Verhoeven5:09

       Yeah, yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:09

       How old are you?

   28. RVRico Verhoeven5:09

       30.

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:10

       Yeah. So you-

   30. RVRico Verhoeven5:10

       So-
5. 5:51 – 7:35

   The first Badr Hari fight: anticlimax, suspicion, and the rematch logic

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:51

      Well, it ended in a fucked up way.

   2. RVRico Verhoeven5:53

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:54

      You know? Uh, Badr said his arm was hurt. Like, what was the ... Did- did he get an MRI or anything like that?

   4. RVRico Verhoeven6:00

      I have no clue. Not from the organization or something, so ...Yeah, he did some bandage or something over his arm in the ne- because that's what he posted on Instagram, but... I don't know. I don't know. For me, it was, um... Yeah, you know, it was like a anticlimax, that fight.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:18

      Yes.

   6. RVRico Verhoeven6:19

      There wasn't the way I wanted to end that fight.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:21

      Right.

   8. RVRico Verhoeven6:21

      But f- I think for the rest, for, uh, for him, this was the perfect way to end the fight, because this is the way you co- you could get a rematch.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:30

      Mm-hmm.

   10. RVRico Verhoeven6:30

       Because if he would, would have lost, no point in doing a rematch. If he would get knocked out, no point in doing a rematch. So... Well, my feeling-

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:39

       Well, unless it was a really close fight and then you eventually won.

   12. RVRico Verhoeven6:42

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:43

       You know?

   14. RVRico Verhoeven6:44

       But for m- for my feeling, uh, everybody said like, "Yeah, but, uh, Rico walked into the jabs the first round and everything." That's true, but I was pressuring him. I was pressuring him the whole time, and I was trying to feel like where is my distance where I can hit and where I can... where I get hit.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:03

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RVRico Verhoeven7:03

       So... And of course, that's...

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:05

       Right, you get tagged.

   18. RVRico Verhoeven7:06

       Yeah, you, you, yeah, you get tagged-

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:06

       Yeah.

   20. RVRico Verhoeven7:06

       ... sometimes. So my, my nose was already, uh... During training, my nose opened up, so when he hit it, it opened up again. So I was like, "Yeah, it is what it is." You know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:16

       Mm-hmm.

   22. RVRico Verhoeven7:17

       I'm, I'm not really bothered by it. So I was pressuring, pressuring, and I was like, "Okay. Now I got, now I got it." So after that first round... And, yeah, then we jumped into the second round. I was fit, I was ready for, I was ready for this fight. And that's what I like to do. I would like to drag people into the deep waters.

6. 7:35 – 10:58

   Pressure cardio at heavyweight: training with lighter fighters and managing resources

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:35

      Well, you're very fit for a heavyweight. You have crazy cardio. That's one of the things that I've always admired about your fighting style, is that you put insane pressure on guys for a heavyweight. 'Cause heavyweights, bigger guys tend to fight at a slower pace-

   2. RVRico Verhoeven7:49

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:49

      ... and with less volume. But you, you push a pace. And when the fight gets to the third, fourth, and fifth rounds, you fucking pile it on, man.

   4. RVRico Verhoeven7:57

      Yeah, because I've been training with, uh, light guys for, like, my whole career. So when I started at the gym, I started at... with Super Pro Sport Center, uh, with Denis Cariou, he had, uh, Albert Kraus, he was the first-

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:11

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RVRico Verhoeven8:11

      ... K-1, uh, max champion. And he had Alvarez de Lima, like multiple, uh, middleweight, uh, champion, world champion. So, I was working with those guys, like, every day. And they just kept on pressuring me and like ba-da-boom-ba-da-bum, ba-da-boom-ba-da-bum, ba-da-bum. I was getting my ass whooped, like-

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:30

      (laughs)

   8. RVRico Verhoeven8:30

      ... almost every day by, like, guys that weigh, like, 75 kilos. So, I was like, "I can keep hitting him, keep hitting those guys hard or just go with less power and pressure them like they try to pressure me." And of course, in the beginning, it's like still you get tired, but at a certain moment, you get like, "Hey, this is going better." And just-

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:54

      Right. You build up that endurance.

   10. RVRico Verhoeven8:55

       ... not try to hit them... Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:56

       Yeah.

   12. RVRico Verhoeven8:56

       You tu- don't try to hit them hard, but just try to keep the work. Bah-bah-bah, like a machine gun.

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:00

       Now, is that something that happens in a fight as well where you have to balance out how hard you swing versus, like, uh, not going full blast, but going technical-

   14. RVRico Verhoeven9:09

       Of course.

   15. JRJoe Rogan9:10

       ... knowing that you can, uh, start unloading in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds when you start to see them fade?

   16. RVRico Verhoeven9:14

       Of course, but it's... For me, it's like I'm playing a game. For me, this is... We always say fighting is a thinking man's game, because fighting, everybody can fight. When they have to, everybody can fight. When... Doesn't matter what person, when you put him in a corner and it's life or death, everybody can fight. But it's, it's so much more than that.

   17. JRJoe Rogan9:38

       Yes.

   18. RVRico Verhoeven9:38

       It's so much more than just fighting, so... And that's try- how I try to, uh, step into the ring with that mentality. Like, it's a, it's, it's a game.

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:45

       People don't understand that, who've never competed, the managing of the resources-

   20. RVRico Verhoeven9:49

       Yes.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:50

       ... is a big factor.

   22. RVRico Verhoeven9:51

       Exactly.

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:52

       Right? Like when do you decide to hit the gas? And you see, like, guys... In MMA, you see it with a guy like Nick Diaz. Like, Nick Diaz is famous for not hitting guys hard. He just stays on you.

   24. RVRico Verhoeven10:02

       Yeah. Bah-bah-bah. Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:02

       He just stays on you with a lot of volume, and then you get tired-

   26. RVRico Verhoeven10:06

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:06

       ... and then, then he starts unloading.

   28. RVRico Verhoeven10:07

       Exactly.

   29. JRJoe Rogan10:08

       You know, with big shots.

   30. RVRico Verhoeven10:09

       So, and that's, that's what I like to do. Um, the biggest compliment I could get from an opponent, and I had it like for my, like my last six opponents, I got like three or four times, they said like, "Rico, now I understand why you are the champion. I fought everybody, but this, I've never felt before. And you're on a different level." And that's the biggest compliment I could get because I'm in the, in the ring for five rounds with this guy and they, they got every opportunity to do everything they've trained for with me for five rounds. So I didn't knock them out, we just fought for five rounds, but they just did not know what to do. And that's, yeah, for me, the biggest compliment I could get.
7. 10:58 – 14:39

   Jamal Ben Saddik rematch: staying calm, fixing mistakes, and late finish

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:58

      Yeah. I, I really loved your rematch with, uh, Jamal Ben Saddik.

   2. RVRico Verhoeven11:02

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:02

      That was one of my favorite fights with you, that was.

   4. RVRico Verhoeven11:03

      I believe that. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:04

      It was a great fight.

   6. RVRico Verhoeven11:05

      It's like... It... That was like a... The, the full Rocky version of a fight that people-

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:10

      Yeah.

   8. RVRico Verhoeven11:10

      ... would love to see. You get tagged in the beginning-

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:12

      Mm-hmm.

   10. RVRico Verhoeven11:13

       ... and then you finish it. Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:14

       Overwhelmed him, and then when you put him away, I was like, "Holy shit, what a fight."

   12. RVRico Verhoeven11:18

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:19

       What a fight that was. That guy's a big motherfucker too.

   14. RVRico Verhoeven11:21

       Yeah. He's a big guy. And, uh, like, I lost against him, like, back in the days, and... when I was, like, just a little, little kid. And so this fight brought something with it as well. It's like, "Yeah, he's the champion now, but I beat him." But it was like six, seven years ago. I'm a totally different fighter than I was back then-

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:41

       (laughs)

   16. RVRico Verhoeven11:41

       ... so I said, "Let's go. I'm ready for you." So, yeah, this was the, the, the best thing. And he, he spit in my face during a press conference, so I got some extra motivation for that fight. (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:54

       (laughs) Well, you played it out perfectly too, where even when he hit you and hurt you early in the fight, you stayed calm, you didn't get emotional, you used good defense, and then once you got him into the deep water... You stopped him in the fourth?

   18. RVRico Verhoeven12:08

       In the fifth.

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:09

       Fifth round.

   20. RVRico Verhoeven12:09

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:10

       Once you got him into deep water, then you piled it on and then put him away.

   22. RVRico Verhoeven12:13

       But then again, it's the same thing for me. Everybody asks like, "But how did you do that?"

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:18

       Mm-hmm.

   24. RVRico Verhoeven12:18

       "You got tagged." And I said, "But...... then again, like I said, it's a thinking man's game.

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:24

       Right.

   26. RVRico Verhoeven12:24

       So I get hit. From my p- my point of view, I made a mistake. I switched to southpaw, but instead of switching and stepping outside of his front leg, I was right in front of his, uh, of his leg, and he was just throwing a lef- uh, a left-right, and I was wh- walked straight into that. And that's wha- that's what happened.

   27. JRJoe Rogan12:45

       Mm-hmm.

   28. RVRico Verhoeven12:46

       It's not that, from my p- point of view, that he timed that.

   29. JRJoe Rogan12:50

       Right.

   30. RVRico Verhoeven12:50

       So it happened, and from that moment, I can do two things. I can think, "Okay, I can jump into the fight and try to get that point or whatever, that moment back, or just think in my mind like, 'Okay, fuck it. You lost this round.' " Take it and let's go fresh into the second.
8. 14:39 – 19:48

   Badr’s reputation, inactivity, suspensions, and the importance of ring timing

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:39

      ... people who don't know the sport, Badr Hari is one of the biggest names in the sport, like, forever. He's, he's a guy who... He's stopped Alistair Overeem. He, you know, he's fought in K-1. He-

   2. RVRico Verhoeven14:51

      He fought everybody.

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:52

      He fought everybody.

   4. RVRico Verhoeven14:52

      Semmy Schilt, Peter Aerts, whatever, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan14:54

      I mean, he, he's a fucking wild man too.

   6. RVRico Verhoeven14:56

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan14:56

      You know, but h- he hasn't fought in high-level competition for a long time.

   8. RVRico Verhoeven15:01

      No.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:01

      And then he fought you.

   10. RVRico Verhoeven15:02

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:03

       Yeah.

   12. RVRico Verhoeven15:04

       Yeah, so the thing was everybody was, uh... I was beating everybody. I was champion and I was beating everybody. People said, "Yeah, Rico's good. He's the champion, but he hasn't fought Badr." I was like, "Hey, if he w-" So our national television said, "Hey, if he wants to fight, let's go."

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       But he had been dealing with a bunch of legal trouble. He went to jail.

   14. RVRico Verhoeven15:24

       Yes, he had a lot of problems, yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:25

       He broke someone's leg in a club.

   16. RVRico Verhoeven15:27

       Yeah, a lot, a lot of shit, so-

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:29

       Yeah. Crazy shit.

   18. RVRico Verhoeven15:29

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:29

       There's a video of him slapping some guy's face at a, at a-

   20. RVRico Verhoeven15:32

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:32

       ... in a hotel.

   22. RVRico Verhoeven15:33

       Yeah. (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:34

       (laughs) Imagine that guy slapping your face. You're some poor dude-

   24. RVRico Verhoeven15:36

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:36

       ... working behind a counter.

   26. RVRico Verhoeven15:38

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:38

       Badr comes in like, "Yikes."

   28. RVRico Verhoeven15:40

       Yikes.

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:40

       (laughs)

   30. RVRico Verhoeven15:40

       Yeah. "Do whatever you want."
9. 19:48 – 22:16

   Drug testing realities: event-only testing vs year-round controls

   1. JRJoe Rogan19:48

      Does Glory drug test?

   2. RVRico Verhoeven19:50

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan19:50

      They do?

   4. RVRico Verhoeven19:50

      That's w-, that's how he got caught.

   5. JRJoe Rogan19:52

      Was it him or was it an athletic commission? I mean, was it Glory or was it a-

   6. RVRico Verhoeven19:56

      Uh, no, it's not Glory. It's an Dutch, uh-

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:58

      Like a local-

   8. RVRico Verhoeven19:58

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan19:58

      ... like a Dutch Athletic Commission?

   10. RVRico Verhoeven20:00

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:00

       And so they're gonna drug test for this fight as well?

   12. RVRico Verhoeven20:02

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:02

       Yeah.

   14. RVRico Verhoeven20:02

       Yeah, for sure. So I, I got tested like every, every time.

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:07

       Is it like WADA testing, like the same standards? The World-

   16. RVRico Verhoeven20:10

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:10

       ... Anti-Doping Agency?

   18. RVRico Verhoeven20:11

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:13

       Like the same standards? So they like wake you up like seven o'clock in the morning, "Hey, Rico."

   20. RVRico Verhoeven20:16

       Oh, no. No, no, no.

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:17

       No?

   22. RVRico Verhoeven20:17

       Oh, that's not the testing. They just test at the events.

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:20

       Oh.

   24. RVRico Verhoeven20:20

       So duh, I, I would even rather have that-

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:23

       Yeah.

   26. RVRico Verhoeven20:23

       ... than just wake up and random come test. But that's not what they, that they do there, but they test like really strict when you're, when you're there.

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:30

       Yeah, that's, that's a little bit easier to pass, though.

   28. RVRico Verhoeven20:33

       That's true.

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:33

       No, that's a lot easier to pass, I should say.

   30. RVRico Verhoeven20:35

       I have no clue.
10. 22:16 – 26:03

    Building kickboxing’s popularity: Dutch hero narrative and U.S. growth hopes

    1. RVRico Verhoeven22:16

       Yeah, I've been doing so good. I really enjoy myself. And that's what I said, I wanna bring kickboxing to a new level. Like then, especially when you go now in Holland, like normally in Holland it was like soccer or whatever, cycling or ice skating. That's where parents would bring their kids to and, uh, "Do that, do kickbox, go do kickboxing."

    2. JRJoe Rogan22:38

       Mm-hmm.

    3. RVRico Verhoeven22:38

       And now they're like, "Hey, kickbox, this is cool because Rico does it."

    4. JRJoe Rogan22:40

       When did that change?

    5. RVRico Verhoeven22:42

       I think like two, three years ago.

    6. JRJoe Rogan22:44

       What, what made it change?

    7. RVRico Verhoeven22:46

       I think, uh, because of the Badr fight that was... So we were getting, we were getting more airtime and after the Badr fight and everything that happened around him and that was surrounding him, like w- with the things you said, what happened outside in the club and this and that.

    8. JRJoe Rogan23:03

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    9. RVRico Verhoeven23:03

       He was like the national asshole.

    10. JRJoe Rogan23:06

        Right.

    11. RVRico Verhoeven23:06

        And I, and I was like the national good guy 'cause everybody-

    12. JRJoe Rogan23:09

        (laughs) Right.

    13. RVRico Verhoeven23:10

        So, and that was like the perfect clash. And then, of course, yeah, I beat him so everybody was like, "Oh, shit, he's, he's our hero." (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan23:19

        Right.

    15. RVRico Verhoeven23:19

        So that, that's ex- that's how everything a little bit exploded. But, uh-

    16. JRJoe Rogan23:24

        But again, for you that's unsatisfying the way it happened, though, that he gets his arm injured.

    17. RVRico Verhoeven23:28

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan23:28

        Yeah.

    19. RVRico Verhoeven23:29

        In whatever way, reason or whatever he thinks happened. But like-

    20. JRJoe Rogan23:34

        Because you're suspicious about it.

    21. RVRico Verhoeven23:35

        I'm suspicious about it. So because he's looking at one arm, then looking at the other arm, and it just, it's a fake thing for me. But it's li- but that's what I have with this whole thing that he tries to create. It's like when he's getting announced and everything, he's like, "Yeah, Badr Hari, 110 something fights and 90 knockouts." But I- I'm obsessed with what I'm doing. I'm, uh, when I'm, when I fight and when I have an opponent and I'm fighting, I'm looking for everything. I wanna know everything about you. And everything these days you can find on the internet. So when I'm looking on the internet, and for example, you look at Wikipedia and you're looking all, all the fights from back in the days, K-1 days and even before that, you maybe get to 60, 70 fights.... so, where are the other fights? Does that mean, like, when you were younger in the youth period, you did like 40-something fights, and did you knock everybody out? I don't know. My trainer's been there for years, even before that, and he doesn't know about it. So, that's strange, because everything is documented on, on the internet, everything you can find on the internet. So-

    22. JRJoe Rogan24:52

        So you think his record's inflated?

    23. RVRico Verhoeven24:55

        ... I think so.

    24. JRJoe Rogan24:56

        He's got some crazy knockouts, though.

    25. RVRico Verhoeven24:57

        He got ... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan24:59

        You're talking about ... That's Stephan Leko, that ... The wheel kick?

    27. RVRico Verhoeven25:01

        Yeah, the wheel kick's crazy.

    28. JRJoe Rogan25:02

        Woo.

    29. RVRico Verhoeven25:02

        But that's what I said. He got ... He, he, he, he's got that.

    30. JRJoe Rogan25:05

        Mm-hmm.
11. 26:03 – 34:51

    Strength, explosiveness, and sparring philosophy: balancing hard work with control

    1. JRJoe Rogan26:03

       Do you do a lot of strength and conditioning? Like, what, what are, what are your workouts like as opposed to ... Like how much skill work do you do and how much strength and conditioning work?

    2. RVRico Verhoeven26:10

       Uh, I think it's pretty even balanced out. I think, uh, I train strength like three times a week. But, uh, even my strength routine is so balanced out with doing strength, and in the same, uh, muscle group, I also do conditioning. So first, I do low reps, and then I do a lot of reps, because these muscles aren't ... For me, aren't supposed to be big. They need to be strong, and they can be ... They need to be making the same punch 50 times with the same strength.

    3. JRJoe Rogan26:43

       Right.

    4. RVRico Verhoeven26:43

       So not 10 times really hard. No. 50 times on the same strength.

    5. JRJoe Rogan26:47

       Right.

    6. RVRico Verhoeven26:47

       The same level. So that's how we approach that, and then, yeah, uh, we got skill training, like two, three times a week, uh, like pad work. Uh, I got explosive training, so I try to always look also at different sports, at soccer, at American football and at, it's ice skating, and they all have a certain type of explosiveness that they train in a certain way. So I try to pick everything from everywhere and work with that. So we created a training that we just use for explos- uh, for being explosive. So it has nothing to do with endurance, because it's maybe like 45 minutes, and it's just (snaps fingers) few secs. Pow. You go (snaps fingers) , come back. Go (snaps fingers) , you come back. Because logically, for a big guy, you're slow. When something is big and heavy, it's slow. And that's what we try to do. We try to be as fast as possible for a big guy.

    7. JRJoe Rogan27:49

       So a lot of plyometric-type stuff.

    8. RVRico Verhoeven27:50

       Yeah, exactly.

    9. JRJoe Rogan27:51

       Explosive-type stuff.

    10. RVRico Verhoeven27:52

        Yeah. Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan27:52

        Yeah. Now, when-

    12. RVRico Verhoeven27:52

        Speed ladder-

    13. JRJoe Rogan27:53

        Yeah.

    14. RVRico Verhoeven27:53

        ... and stuff like that.

    15. JRJoe Rogan27:54

        Oh, okay. Yeah. So when you do this kinda stuff, when you were saying that you lift, um, low reps and then high reps-

    16. RVRico Verhoeven28:01

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan28:01

        ... so you do like heavy weights first?

    18. RVRico Verhoeven28:03

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan28:03

        So just to, to try to like max out or get the, the muscles very tired-

    20. RVRico Verhoeven28:07

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan28:07

        ... and then really wear 'em out with, with reps?

    22. RVRico Verhoeven28:09

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan28:10

        Is that what you're doing?

    24. RVRico Verhoeven28:10

        Yeah, but we never go max-max.

    25. JRJoe Rogan28:12

        So ... Right, right, right.

    26. RVRico Verhoeven28:13

        So not like overmax, but we-

    27. JRJoe Rogan28:15

        So you don't go to failure with like-

    28. RVRico Verhoeven28:16

        No.

    29. JRJoe Rogan28:16

        ... heavy, heavy weights?

    30. RVRico Verhoeven28:17

        No.
12. 34:51 – 44:43

    Hollywood ambitions: acting plans, management, and staying ‘all-in’ on fighting

    1. JRJoe Rogan34:51

       So you're out here trying to act too?

    2. RVRico Verhoeven34:53

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan34:53

       That's what you're gonna try to do?

    4. RVRico Verhoeven34:54

       Yeah, yeah, so-

    5. JRJoe Rogan34:54

       So you're getting an agent and meeting with people and stuff like that?

    6. RVRico Verhoeven34:57

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, um, I'm, uh, with, with Paradigm. It's mine, uh, it's my American management.

    7. JRJoe Rogan35:03

       Now you're taking... You, you obviously speak fluent English.

    8. RVRico Verhoeven35:06

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan35:06

       But are you taking lessons to get better at it-

    10. RVRico Verhoeven35:08

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan35:08

        ... so you can act and-

    12. RVRico Verhoeven35:09

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan35:09

        ... all that jazz?

    14. RVRico Verhoeven35:10

        Yeah, yeah. The-

    15. JRJoe Rogan35:10

        So that's your next goal.

    16. RVRico Verhoeven35:11

        Exactly. So, um, I'm, uh, still an active athlete, but I'm still looking at like, "Hey, what can I do next? Because I can't and I don't wanna do this for, like, 10 more years."

    17. JRJoe Rogan35:25

        When do you wanna retire? Do you have a thought in your head?

    18. RVRico Verhoeven35:28

        I don't know. I mean, it depends on what, w-

    19. JRJoe Rogan35:30

        Well, right now you're in your prime.

    20. RVRico Verhoeven35:31

        Yeah. So it depends on what, what comes on my, my route. So-

    21. JRJoe Rogan35:36

        Yeah.

    22. RVRico Verhoeven35:37

        I'm still looking at... So now I'm in negotiations with Glory and everything.

    23. JRJoe Rogan35:39

        How is Glory doing as an organization? Are they doing well?

    24. RVRico Verhoeven35:43

        Yeah, they're doing pretty good.

    25. JRJoe Rogan35:43

        'Cause I know they were, they were struggling a little bit in America.

    26. RVRico Verhoeven35:45

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan35:45

        They were trying to-

    28. RVRico Verhoeven35:46

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan35:47

        But, uh, uh, do they still have events here in America?

    30. RVRico Verhoeven35:50

        Yeah.
13. 44:43 – 52:53

    Cardio, mindset, and the ‘champion grind’: running, mental toughness, and overtraining risk

    1. JRJoe Rogan44:43

       Now, do you do any other kinda cardio? Do you run or-

    2. RVRico Verhoeven44:45

       Of course.

    3. JRJoe Rogan44:45

       Yeah? Do you?

    4. RVRico Verhoeven44:47

       I hate it.

    5. JRJoe Rogan44:48

       You hate it? But you have to do it.

    6. RVRico Verhoeven44:49

       You have to do it. Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan44:50

       (clicks tongue) Well, it's, it's also, for a big guy, it's more of a pain in the ass-

    8. RVRico Verhoeven44:53

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan44:54

       ... to do. Like, what do you... What do you weigh, about 250? Somewhere around there?

    10. RVRico Verhoeven44:56

        Uh, 260.

    11. JRJoe Rogan44:57

        260?

    12. RVRico Verhoeven44:58

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan44:58

        So that's... When you're running, that's a lot of weight.

    14. RVRico Verhoeven45:00

        That's a lot of weight on your joints-

    15. JRJoe Rogan45:02

        Yeah.

    16. RVRico Verhoeven45:02

        ... constantly, the pressure. And so, but in the end, how much I hate it does the... It, it works for me because it's also, for me, a mental training, because I hate it so much.

    17. JRJoe Rogan45:16

        Mm-hmm.

    18. RVRico Verhoeven45:17

        And I jump on the treadmill or I go outside and I just run. "Come on, come on."

    19. JRJoe Rogan45:23

        (laughs)

    20. RVRico Verhoeven45:23

        You gotta keep going. You gotta keep going, because when you get... You have that feeling, like, 90% of the people would stop.

    21. JRJoe Rogan45:32

        Hmm.

    22. RVRico Verhoeven45:32

        See? But you're not that person. You gotta keep going and that's what, that's what motivates me, just to do things different than everybody else does.

    23. JRJoe Rogan45:42

        Being comfortable being uncomfortable.

    24. RVRico Verhoeven45:43

        Yes, exactly.

    25. JRJoe Rogan45:44

        Yeah, yeah. The grind.

    26. RVRico Verhoeven45:45

        The grind is... I think that's the moment when it, when it starts.

    27. JRJoe Rogan45:49

        Mm-hmm.

    28. RVRico Verhoeven45:49

        When you get that feeling, shit is gonna hurt, your body starts hurting, and that's when, like, a lot of people give up, and that's where we, as champions, we continue.

    29. JRJoe Rogan46:00

        It's interesting too, because a lot of fighters, they'll do all sorts of high-intensity training and interval training and all these different plyometrics and cardio and, and different things. But many of them will tell you that one of the more important things is just long-range running.

    30. RVRico Verhoeven46:16

        Yeah.
14. 52:53 – 1:17:54

    Recovery, tracking, nutrition, and mental coaching: optimizing the full package

    1. JRJoe Rogan52:53

       Do you monitor your heart rate or anything like that?

    2. RVRico Verhoeven52:56

       Uh, yes. Every morning I, uh, I, uh, check my blood pressure, stuff like that, uh, get my temperature.

    3. JRJoe Rogan53:04

       Do you do it with a computer? Do you have a program that you run?

    4. RVRico Verhoeven53:07

       No, no, no. Just, uh-

    5. JRJoe Rogan53:08

       No? Just write it down?

    6. RVRico Verhoeven53:08

       Yeah, just write it down, and then, uh, send it to the, to the doctor every now and then.

    7. JRJoe Rogan53:13

       So if your heart rate is a little bit too high in the morning, do you just do like an active recovery day, just relax?

    8. RVRico Verhoeven53:19

       Uh, yeah, we, uh, we now check it more through the temperature than through the heart rate.

    9. JRJoe Rogan53:25

       Really?

    10. RVRico Verhoeven53:25

        Yeah. So-

    11. JRJoe Rogan53:26

        Temperature?

    12. RVRico Verhoeven53:27

        Yeah, exactly.

    13. JRJoe Rogan53:27

        Interesting.

    14. RVRico Verhoeven53:28

        So when my temperature i- is up, I gotta watch out.

    15. JRJoe Rogan53:33

        So you might be fighting off a cold or something like that?

    16. RVRico Verhoeven53:36

        Something like that-

    17. JRJoe Rogan53:36

        Yeah.

    18. RVRico Verhoeven53:36

        ... fighting off a cold or you still, uh, your body's still recovering from-

    19. JRJoe Rogan53:41

        From the last workout.

    20. RVRico Verhoeven53:42

        ... from, from last trainings.

    21. JRJoe Rogan53:43

        Mm-hmm.

    22. RVRico Verhoeven53:43

        So, and from that we can... So we... I've been doing it now for a few years, and that's exactly what... When I feel like, "Hey," when my temperature goes up and it goes there, hmm, this doesn't feel good. And then every time when we... In the end, we always look back at it and analyze stuff, and then my trainer said, "Hey, exactly there."

    23. JRJoe Rogan54:04

        Hmm.

    24. RVRico Verhoeven54:04

        'Cause this training was, was shit.

    25. JRJoe Rogan54:07

        So you take... Do you use this... Like, uh, do you make a log during your training, you compare it to, like, your last camp, and you look at-

    26. RVRico Verhoeven54:16

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan54:16

        ... the numbers and-

    28. RVRico Verhoeven54:16

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan54:16

        ... make sure that everything lines up.

    30. RVRico Verhoeven54:18

        Yeah. Yeah, so-

Episode duration: 1:20:15